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Removal of tags

I have reinstated the tags removed by Dmcq, on the basis that they are still appropriate in my opinion. The fact that editors don't currently seem to have te time to finish addressing these concerns should not be taken for an implicit admission that the issue has been resolved. In my opinion, the issues are still very much there; however I, for one, cannot presently devote the energy necessary to work on them at the moment. If Dmcq disagrees, I would suggest he should set up a straw poll among editors. If after a reasonable amount of time the consensus of editors is in favor of removing the tags, I wll gladly bend to the will of the consensus. But I believe it necessary to gather the opinions of other editors first. Thanks.--Ramdrake (talk) 20:32, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

I questioned those tags a few weeks ago, and the two editors who replied essentially said that the tags are there to encourage people to make the article better. I don't think that alone can be a rationale for including the tags. Furthermore, it is clear that in practise the tags have not encouraged more editors to pay attention to the article.

If people want to keep the tags, they need to articulate the ways in which the article is biased or factually inaccurate. If the reasons for keeping the tags are not explained, no one knows how to work towards removing them, and they can be retained infinitely.

WP:AD suggests that the disputed tag should only be used when the factual accurary of the article is being actively disputed. As this is clearly not the case, the tag should be removed.--Victor Chmara (talk) 21:57, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Straw Polls

Well lets just have a straw poll to see how much the article has come towards being neutral and accurate. I'd like to be able to copy over much of the leader to another article and put a link from there here but there's not much point if there are major problems here. There are two tags which haven't been discussed for a while but another editor wants kept until this is thrashed out - viz neutrality and factual accuracy.--Dmcq

Do you believe that the NPOV tags are still relevant now? Also how would the article have become any more neutral than when the tags were placed without anyone having done any editing of it? Whenever someone has tried to make any edits they have promptly been reverted by the other editors who disagreed and after a fruitless discussion everyone has resigned to status quo. This is simply the kind of article that is highly unlikely to ever make it to a sufficiently neutral state to no longer require the tags.·Maunus·ƛ· 01:44, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Neutral point of view?

Do you think the article is reasonably neutral overall? Are there particular sections which you feel are not neutral?

Nope. 1. the history section doesn't actually provide a history of the issue - it only lists the most prominent pro-hereditarian publications and authors. It doesn't show that there has been a debate about the issue since the first reports of the gap.

2. the current debate section again summarises mostly the hereditarian arguments. It gives a laundry list of studies critiquing the bell curve but does not summarise the arguments other than mention the rather trivial peer review argument. It then spends the rest of the section summarising Rushton and Jensen and Lynn and Vanhanen. It mentions "ethical guidelines" but doesn't mention why many people think the research is unethical. The section in short is focused on presenting hereditarian viewpoints and arguments and only mentions that there are opposing viewpoints with out actually presenting them.

3. the grouop difference section presents an unproblematized list of what is largely accepted about IQ. It doesn't mention any of the problems that are often pointed out for some of these statements - e.g. "IQ is heritable" it doesn't say how much so and what that means, IQ predicts performance without regards to SES or racial background (perhaps because western education is based on IQ type tasks). In the test scores section it baldy states that self report has been shown to match up with racial/genetic clustering. This is based on very few studies and it is commonly contradicted as nonsense - since there is as much genetic variability inside of any racial group as there is without. It states that G-loaded tests show the highest gap - Nisbett criticizes this assumption stating that it is only partly true and that the gap diminishes for some highly g-loaded tests. It gives Rushton and Lynns estimated IQ numbers without mentioning that they have been severly criticized for being based on selective sampling and bad math. The views on research section mixes different statements together almost randomly. Completely incoherent, but with ample quitation space especially to hereditarians like Linda Gotfredson. It always gives the last word to the hereditarian pov. The section debate overview has been extensively criticized above from both sides of the argument.

4. the policy relevance section uncritically states the hereditarian counter claim without even providing any of the criticisms that they are responding to - it basically amounts to saying "Rushton and Jensen say that affirmative action is worse than what they are doing". All in all the article is clearly biased towards the hereditarian viewpoint and completely fails to give an adequate account of the many important arguments against it, it also fails to adequately put the topic into a social and historical context - which of course has to include an account of the social circumstances that lead the topic to become controversial - namely the context of institutionalized racial discrimintation in the US through out the 20th century. ·Maunus·ƛ· 22:24, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Well, that was a mouthful. You should probably start separate discussions about some of those issues. And please use paragraph breaks! At this point, I will just point out that the correspondence between self-reported race/ethnicity and genetic clusters in America has been replicated a number of times, and is uncontroversial, whereas the idea that "there is as much genetic variability inside of any racial group as there is without" is known as Lewontin's Fallacy.--Victor Chmara (talk) 22:40, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Its not like I haven't mentioned this before. Also please don't tout that Lewontin's fallacy thing at me. This is no more of a fallacy than it is still mentioned in genetics handbooks as a fact (e.g. Vogel and Motulsky) - Lewontin's fallacy is merely that this doesn't make it impossible make between group comparisons. This doesn't change the point that belief in genetically defined races is a minority viewpoint. Pace A.W.F. Edwards geneticists do not believe in genetically defined races, but in population with seamlessly blending genetic profiles, and in haplogroups which are also not racial groups. Genetic clustering is a statistical artefact it does not change the fact that a person selfidentifying as black can be more genetically similar to a person selfidentifying as white than as another black person. There is no genetic test that positively identify a person with a racial group - particularly not if there has been any influx of genes from a different geographical population in the persons immediate ancestry (including grandparents). (Collins states this in the piece I have brought around here many times now). The idea that selfidentified race tells us much about a persons genetic make up is wildly problematic and has received tonnes of criticism - e.g. in relation to race in biomedicine. ·Maunus·ƛ· 22:53, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

I have not found support in the current secondary sources for the claim that most scholars agree with Edwards as against Lewontin. Lewontin is cited as a "brilliant" (one source's term) scholar whose results have been repeatedly replicated in numerous current sources. Maybe the "fallacy" is having a whole Misplaced Pages article on what is very much a minority point of view. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk, how I edit) 23:11, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

The fact that Edwards is right has been empirically verified (in fact, it happened already back in the 1960s), and is completely uncontroversial. From the abstract of the Vogel and Motulsky book (4th ed., 2010) mentioned by Maunus:

Early studies showed that most human genetic variation occurs within populations rather than between them, and that genetically related populations often cluster geographically. Recent studies based on much larger data sets have recapitulated these observations, but have also demonstrated that high-density genotyping allows individuals to be reliably assigned to their population of origin. In fact, for admixed individuals, even the ancestry of particular genomic regions can often be reliably inferred.

On pp. 595-596, they explain how Edwards's argument refutes Lewontin (Maunus quoted this passage in an earlier discussion):

An important point to realize is that Lewontin’s calculation (and later work that confirms his finding) are based on the F-statistics introduced in Sect. 20.2.1 (see for a discussion) averaged across single genetic loci. While it is an undeniable mathematical fact that the amount of genetic variation observed within groups is much larger than the differences among groups, this does not mean that genetic data do not contain discernable information regarding genetic ancestry. In fact, we will see that minute differences in allele frequencies across loci when compounded across the whole of the genome actually contain a great deal of information regarding ancestry. Given current technology, for example, it is feasible to accurately identify individuals from populations that differ by as little as 1% in FST if enough markers are genotyped. (See discussion below for a detailed treatment of the subject.) It is also important to note that when one looks at correlations in allelic variation across loci, self-identified populations and populations inferred for human subjects using genetic data correspond closely.

In The g Factor, Jensen similarly describes genetic racial differences as differences in allele frequencies. The hereditarian approach is therefore 100 percent compatible with the latest genetic knowledge. No one thinks that races are non-overlapping essences, so it's a strawman to argue that. There's much research on the ancestry of black and white Americans, some of it described in the Vogel and Motulsky book: blacks are, on average, 80 percent West African and 20 percent European, while most whites have little to no recent non-European ancestry. In America, genetic tests can apparently predict self-identified race more reliably than self-identified gender! The fact that African Americans have varying amounts of white ancestry is a natural experiment that could be used to test the hereditarian hypothesis -- this is because genetic tests can determine the magnitudes of different ancestry components in admixed individuals (see Rowe & Rodgers in the article). Also, whether someone who identifies as black can be more genetically similar to someone who identifies as white depends on the amounts of admixture in them.

As to what most scientists in different fields currently think about the reality of race (however defined), I don't think we can say anything too certain about it. Neil Risch, who is probably the most influential population geneticist in the world at the moment, has argued that race is a useful concept in biomedical research. In psychology, even Richard Nisbett, in his recent book that Maunus so loves, says that hereditary intelligence differences between races are entirely possible (even though he argues that such differences don't exist).

Maunus, above you disputed the correspondence between race/ethnicity and genetic clusters, whereas the Vogel and Motulsky book explicitly affirms it. What are you talking about?--Victor Chmara (talk) 01:01, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

I don't know how you derive that conclusion form those quotes. I see this: "While it is an undeniable mathematical fact that the amount of genetic variation observed within groups is much larger than the differences among groups, this does not mean that genetic data do not contain discernable information regarding genetic ancestry." Which is exactly what I said above - ingroup variation is larger than outgroup variation - just like lewontin said - it is his conclusion that this means that genetic groupings based on ancestry cannot be made that is false, as I acknowledged.

I'll quote the relevant sentence again: It is also important to note that when one looks at correlations in allelic variation across loci, self-identified populations and populations inferred for human subjects using genetic data correspond closely. That is, when one considers an individual's genes as an aggregate rather than as isolated entities as Lewontin stupidly does, self-identified categories such as races correspond to genetic clusters. Moreover, as Witherspoon et al. 2007 have shown, when one compares a large number of markers at the same time in populations geographically separated in their evolution (e.g. Europeans, East Asians, and sub-Saharan Africans), everyone is genetically closer to every single person in their own population than anyone in the other ones. So on what do you base your assertion that there's no correspondence between self-identified race/ethnicity and genetic clusters?--Victor Chmara (talk) 02:07, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Now - you know full well that geneticists don't generally work with "races" - Vogel and Motulsky also do not deal with races or racial clusterings - they talk about populations (although some of them believe that what they refer to populations is the same thing - but social scientists know that that is nonsense). Race as a category has a lot of different variables and genetics and geographic origin is only one of them - others are social and cultural in nature. Denying the existience and validity of the humonguous body of research on race is simply stupid. I don't know what data suggests that selfidentified gender is less genetically accurate than self identified race - but untill you provide a number of very reliable quotes for that I will regard it as nonsensical hyperbole. It is very difficult to argue with you when you simply choose to dismiss and disregard the opposition viewpoint. If you were truly interested in a neutral and balanced article you would read the opposing accounts and try to integrate them into the article - currently you are denying that they even exist. As long as that is the case I don't see how the POV tag could ever be removed.·Maunus·ƛ· 01:32, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

More about the Vogel and motulsky quote: What the V& M quote says is basically that genetics is now so advanced that they can pinpoint a persons geographic ancestry very precisely - we could for example tell if a person is likely to have ancestry in belgium. This does not of course mean that belgians are a race. ·Maunus·ƛ· 01:41, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

The claims that the hereditarian IQ & race hypothesis is false because the race concept is meaningless or because genetic variation is clinal or whatever -- these are all pseudo arguments. All you need for the hereditarian hypothesis to work is that there be systematic allele frequency differences between socially identified races. That is indeed the case, and it has long been known. Playing the semantic game about the reality of race is therefore meaningless from the hereditarian perspective, as was pointed out by Jensen a long time ago.

The idea that gender is less genetic than race in America was one result of this large (N=3,636) study (one of whose authors, Hua Tang, was incidentally a coauthor of the "race" article in the Vogel and Motulsky book). Neil Risch mentioned it in this interview: "In a recent study, when we looked at the correlation between genetic structure versus self-description , we found 99.9% concordance between the two. We actually had a higher discordance rate between self-reported sex and markers on the X chromosome!" Whether this generalizes to the entire population is unknown (and irrelevant for our purposes), but transsexualism and conditions like AIS suggest that it is possible.--Victor Chmara (talk) 02:47, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

This discussion is too much about the TRUTH, and not enough about WP:V. I agree with Maunus that the article does not express a neutral point of view in the way that it presents the debate. Too much is unchallenged or phrased starkly as to appear as truth. Lewontin's point is not generally considered to have been refuted. What we personally think here should be neither here nor there, except insofar as understanding what each piece of research actually says helps us to edit better.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 05:46, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Lewontin's argument about variability is true, but it is a non sequitur to say, as Lewontin did, that race is therefore "of virtually no genetic or taxonomic significance". This is how Richard Dawkins put it in The Ancestor's Tale:

We can all happily agree that human racial classification is of no social value and is positively destructive of social and human relations. That is one reason why I object to ticking boxes in forms and why I object to positive discrimination in job selection. But that doesn't mean that race is of ‘virtually no genetic or taxonomic significance’. This is Edwards's point, and he reasons as follows. However small the racial partition of the total variation may be, if such racial characteristics as there are are highly correlated with other racial characteristics, they are by definition informative, and therefore of taxonomic significance.

--Victor Chmara (talk) 11:37, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Victor, you neglected to note what Dawkins says before that, and which is absolutely germane to this discussion: Lewontin's view of race has become near universal-orthodoxy in scientific circles. (p. 417) That is what is important for Misplaced Pages, not what you or I happen to think is the WP:TRUTH. If Dawkins is saying it, and he disagrees with it, it carries a hell of a lot of weight as far as I can see.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 12:00, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

• No I think the main reason stems from what I'd term the article's "dissociative identity disorder". What is race? What is intelligence? Why would the two be linked as an article topic? Is it currently a real life topic? Is there a current controversy? What positions are there in this controversy? The article's voice, the NPOV "stage" for a topic rife with divisive p.o.v.'s, the mooring in other words, or contextual anchor necessary to help the reader first fix and then relate to the various perspectives, isn't commanding the ship. This is a significant problem, and I don't mean to trivialize it with metaphors. But this topic is of a sort traditional encyclopedias don't touch and wikipedia is venturing into with a "crowd sourced voice". And this voice fails so far focusing simply on giving the reader the basics, a context, outlines and a map. Instead, the undertone is "the hereditarian---right or wrong?" While the reader is treated like an unwitting jury, without the necessary "introduction".

I realize these remarks aren't specific enough to resolve simply and neatly. But the article is being drawn to this hereditarian "view" like a ship a'storm to the craggy rocks. The article needs the dispassionate voice from above the "storm". That's not the same thing as the "anti-heretarian view" but the perch of the "dispassionate observer".

Though I don't think the article is anywhere close to NPOV yet, I don't see much value here in haggling over the article's tags. Tags are (limitedly) useful for soliciting editors to make repairs. On WP they're frequently used like WP-brand "disapprovals" or "disclaimers". I think solicitations should be placed on talk pages--and if the WP community deems article disapproval or disclaimer tags legitimate then WP should call them that. I'm much more amenable if WP encourages readers to "read this but what do we know? here are the sources we see. please do verify!" And at this point, I see the "tag" as having no value whatsoever except like a light switch. Editors acclimate and can fall asleep with it on or off. Flicking it once in awhile might wake them back up temporarily but mainspace should be devoted to keeping readers alert, not editors...imho. And this article, tags or no tags, is not providing service to readers. Professor marginalia (talk) 08:51, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

• The preceding back-and-forth was unproductive because it was premised on the belief that if one could show that "race" was a folk category rather than a natural category that it would be impossible for racial differences to be genetic in origin. That's a view some scientists hold, and other disagree with them. I'll leave it as an exercise to figure out if either group is in the majority. But the problem is that there are yet other scientists who don't care about that argument because either way it doesn't change the answer to the question of whether particular socially identifiable groups of individuals differ in a particular trait on average or the cause of that average difference. Google admixture mapping to find out more. NPOV requires all of those POVs to co-exist in one article. --Cant1lev3r (talk) 06:53, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Factually accurate?

Are there parts of this article which are factually inaccurate? Can you point to them? Are they verifiable with citations and yet still reasonably certainly untrue? This is irrespective of any feelings about neutrality.

The main overall problem is undue weight, with the article not reflecting the balance of issues and sources that any textbook or professional's handbook on this issue would show. Many current sources are available to show how the issue is treated in the professional literature. I'll check for article statements that don't square with sources in the next few days as my work schedule allows. One rather blatant mispresentation of a living scholar's point of view stood in article text for a long time, with a misleading source (former source by the scholar, who long ago changed his view), but that was cured a little while ago by another editor's edit. I think there are still some more of those. There are a lot of unreplicated primary research findings reported here inconsistently with WP:MEDRS. Thanks for asking. I look forward to seeing what other editors think. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk, how I edit) 00:29, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

WBB, be more specific. Highly general statements like the above are not useful. (Also, a hint: Everybody learned about your not-terribly-representative-of-expert-opinion list of sources the last one hundred times you told us about it, so you can stop spamming it.)--Victor Chmara (talk) 01:35, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

I haven't followed the above discussion but alarm bells are ringing for me about the above post. Presenting a list of sources for discussion must surely be an excellent way forward for the article. People should be discussing the quality of the sources per objective criteria independent of the sources' conclusions, e.g. academic publisher, peer review, author's qualifications. Itsmejudith (talk) 09:17, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

It shows a real serious lack of good faith to accuse WBB of "spamming" the article; since participating s/he has brought to our attention a great number of important recent works of scholarship. This cannot be a bad thing, unless one wishes to ignore recent scholarship. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:24, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

WBB has posted essentially the same message probably hundreds of times on the talk pages of dozens of articles. That is quite simply spamming.--Victor Chmara (talk) 21:59, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

Literacy and IQ

The Flynn effect and racial IQ differences could both be an artifact of differences in literacy

David Marks hypothesizes that IQ differences across time, race and nationality are all caused by differences in literacy. Intelligence text performance requires literacy skills not present in all people to the same extent. In eight different analyses mean full scale IQ and literacy scores yielded correlations ranging from .79 to .99. Racial differences in IQ and the Flynn effect can both be explained in a similar way: literacy differences across race and across time could be the cause of both. Racial IQ differences are converging as the literacy skills within two populations become more equal. Thus racial differences have an environmental cause, just like the Flynn effect. Social justice requires more effective implementation of policies and programs designed to eliminate inequities in IQ and literacy.~~David F Marks 12 .5.10~~

Your research seems to have found little support or even interest in the scholarly community so far. WP:SECONDARY requires that claims cited in articles be reported in reliable secondary sources so as to establish notability and avoid misrepresentations. The use of primary sources is discouraged. For this reason, I don't think your findings can be discussed in the article for now.

On the face of it, your thesis sounds implausible for several reasons. For example, racial differences in IQ and the Flynn effect are present in pre-literate children, and on tests that do not require literacy (e.g. Raven's tests, ECTs). Structural equation modeling studies suggest that racial differences between contemporary groups (in the US) and cohort differences have dissimilar causes.--Victor Chmara (talk) 21:55, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

High IQ of Han Chinese due to separate evolution from the rest of humanity

I'm proposing that this article be updated with information pertaining to the separate evolutionary history of Han Chinese be included to explain the difference in East Asian anatomical brain structure resulting in differences in East Asian IQ scores when compared to other subspecies (aka. races) of the species Homo Sapiens Sapiens which includes Europeans, Middle Easterners, Africans and virtually everyone else except the Han Chinese. East Asia is heavily represented by the Han Chinese as they are the modern day Homo Erectus Pekinensis species with the largest population size close to 2.5 billion people.

Read these sources first:

1.) New Scientist Chinese evolved separately from rest of humanity

2.) Chinese Hominid Challenges Out-of-Africa Origin of Modern Man

3.) Chinese challenge to out-of-Africa theory

In case some critics are trying to dismiss this proposal, this is NOT some kind of fringe alternative belief, this scientific theory (not hypothesis) is based on numerous fossil and genetic evidence. Please take note that everything stated is supported by scientific studies that were published in peer reviewed scientific journals such as Oxford University's Oxford Journals, the Genetics Society of America's Genetics Journal, the BMC Biology Journal of Biology

1.) Genetics Society of America's Genetics Journal, "Testing for Archaic Hominin Admixture on the X Chromosome: Model Likelihoods for the Modern Human RRM2P4 Region From Summaries of Genealogical Topology Under the Structured Coalescent" by Murray P. Cox, Fernando L. Mendez, Tatiana M. Karafet, Maya Metni Pilkington, Sarah B. Kingan, Giovanni Destro-Bisol, Beverly I. Strassmann and Michael F. Hammer.

2.) Oxford University's Oxford Journals, Evidence for Archaic Asian Ancestry on the Human X Chromosome by Daniel Garrigan, Zahra Mobasher, Tesa Severson, Jason A. Wilder and Michael F. Hammer

3.) Oxford University's Oxford Journals Global Patterns of Human DNA Sequence Variation in a 10-kb Region on Chromosome 1 by Ning Yu, Z. Zhao, Y.-X. Fu, N. Sambuughin, M. Ramsay, T. Jenkins, E. Leskinen, L. Patthy, L. B. Jorde, T. Kuromori and W.-H. Li

4.) BMC Biology Journal of Biology "Y chromosome evidence of earliest modern human settlement in East Asia and multiple origins of Tibetan and Japanese populations" by Shi H, Zhong H, Peng Y, Dong YL, Qi XB, Zhang F, Liu LF, Tan SJ, Ma RZ, Xiao CJ, Wells RS, Jin L, Su B.

5.) National Geographic Society Peking Man (Homo Pekinensis) Lived in China 200,000 Years Earlier Than Previously Thought

6.) http://www.springerlink.com/content/26m138v171861478/fulltext.pdf

The previous "out of Africa" model is only partial correct, while evidence shows there was indeed an out of Africa migration of Homo Sapiens, it does NOT mean that all humans are descended from this small population of Homo Sapiens. In Europe, the archaic humans, Homo Neanderthalensis, existed independently and interbred with these African Homo Sapiens resulting in the 1%-4% genetic admixture of all non-Africans. And in the case of the Han Chinese, numerous scientific studies have been published showing both genetic and fossil evidence that the modern Han Chinese people possess a different nucleotide encoding in their DNA, which in simplest terms means the Han Chinese have genes and other DNA fragments which they inherited from their Homo Erectus Pekinensis ancestor. Additionally, fossil evidence unearthed at the Zhoukoudian archaeological site have shown Homo Pekinensis fossils to have a continuity of anatomical and morphological traits with many modern Han Chinese people. All of the archaic East Asian Homo Pekinensis and Homo Erectus fossils studied have shown a continuity of unique morphological and anatomical traits, such as flattened faces, small frontal sinuses, reduced posterior teeth, shovel-shaped incisors, and high frequencies of metopic sutures, which are virtually absent in modern day European, Middle Eastern, and African populations but widely present in the modern population of the Han Chinese.

98.122.69.172 (talk) 07:27, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

This theory has been discredited for a while now even in China, see Homo erectus pekinensis. There may have been a little interbreeding with earlier humans like there was with neanderthals in Europe but there is no real evidence of that to an appreciable extent. Anyway the evidence is homo erectus died out long long before homo sapiens arose so it woulddifference have to be some later species if any and would probably have to be as close as the neanderthals for interbreeding to have any success. Dmcq (talk) 11:34, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps I can put it in a more easily got way. There is less difference between Chinese and European people than there is between different tribes in Nigeria and the differences between the lot are quite tiny. Dmcq (talk) 14:42, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

To Dmcq, you are wrong, there is more similarity between Europeans, Indo-Europeans, Middle Easterners and Africans due to the fact that the majority of the humans living on Planet Earth today are descended from the same small group of African Homo Sapiens Sapiens that migrated out of Africa some 100,000 years ago while the Han Chinese are descended from a separate group of archaic humans (aka. Homo Erectus Pekinensis) that lived near what is now Beijing about 2 million years ago. Once the Homo Sapiens left Africa they interbreed with Homo Neanderthalensis to the point where today all modern Non-African humans possess up to around 70 unique genes in their DNA showing that the African Homo Sapiens did interbreed with another separate species of European archaic humans known as the Neanderthals (Homo Neanderthalensis. The Han Chinese are the exception because they are NOT descended from the same African Homo Sapien stock of humans that the rest of humanity are descended from, but rather are descended directly from Homo Erectus Pekinensis. This is proven by both fossil and genetic evidence such as many unique genes possessed only by Han Chinese and no one else and the fact that modern day Han Chinese people still possess numerous identical anatomical morphological traits such as shovel shaped incisors and cranial shape which are traits that are unique to the Han Chinese and the other East Asian people's whom received some genetic donation from the Han Chinese. It well known that no other population of humans possess shovel shaped incisors, this was trait that is markedly visible in most of the Homo Erectus Pekinensis skulls that have been found dating back almost 2 millions in China's history. The scientific studies listed above have ALL been published in peer reviewed scientific journals such as Oxford University's Oxford Journals 98.122.103.183 (talk) 09:08, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

Drawing any connection between these articles and the topic of this article would appear (on its face) to be original research. Professor marginalia (talk) 16:20, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

NO, that would be incorrect given the fact that numerous scientific studies showing evidence that modern Han Chinese possess unique genes in their DNA and a continuation of anatomical morphological traits such as cranial shape and shovel shaped incisors which are the result of a direct evolutionary lineage with the prehistoric archaic Chinese people known as Homo Erectus Pekinensis. These evolutionary differences and the difference in brain structure and the cranium inherited from Homo Erectus Pekinensis combined with many millenia of natural selection and culturally based artificial selection in the form of warfare, fierce competition in ancient Chinese civil service examinations, practice of Confucius based polygamy all the way up into the 20th century resulted in the huge population explosion of the Han Chinese and the evolution and propagation of superior intelligence as subsequently measured on IQ tests. All of the research showing evidence of a separate Han Chinese evolution have been recognized by the academic community and published in peer reviewed scientific journals such as Oxford University's Oxford Journals and other prestigious scientific journals. So this absolutely is NOT so-called "original research," that is just some people's way of trying to use "Misplaced Pages tools" to suppress this information which in turn would amount to POV pushing as well as a violation of Misplaced Pages's policy of Freedom of Speech and Freedom of Press. A word of note, if you go to either the communist People's Republic of China (PRC) or the democratic island country Republic of China (Taiwan), you will see that the official education system of both these two countries officially teach their students that the ancestor of the modern day Han Chinese is the indigenous prehistoric archaic Chinese Homo Erectus Pekinensis and NOT African Homo Sapiens Sapiens like the rest of humanity. 98.122.103.183 (talk) 09:08, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

Haven't you actually read any of your sources rather than just the headlines?, none of them actually supports what you say. Some reliable sources about them teaching that idea would be good. I'd heard there were some Chinese equivalents of creationists pushing that and I think it would make a good article. I've reduced the size of the title again as it was overlong. Dmcq (talk) 09:28, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

The sources I listed above are all published in peer reviewed scientific journals. Just to give you an example, read the

Oxford University's Oxford Journals, Evidence for Archaic Asian Ancestry on the Human X Chromosome by Daniel Garrigan, Zahra Mobasher, Tesa Severson, Jason A. Wilder and Michael F. Hammer

as it provides genetic evidence showing, at the very least, that East Asians possess unique DNA inherited from their archaic Homo Erectus Pekinensis ancestor. If we are to believe the politically correct propaganda that the Han Chinese are supposedly descended from African Homo Sapiens like everyone else then all humans would have the same DNA as the Han Chinese. But that is NOT the case, numerous scientific studies and the above listed is one of them shows that the Han Chinese do indisputably possess different DNA than the rest of humanity providing evidence of a separate evolution from Homo Erectus Pekinensis. And NO, the Han Chinese people are NOT creationists, the majority of them are NOT even Christian. This separate evolution is just a historical fact that is taught to the Han Chinese students and people in both the People's Republic of China (PRC) and the Republic of China (Taiwan). Whereas in contrast, the academics in the USA and other European countries tend to subscribe to a more politically correct but scientifically incorrect view that all humans are descended from the same small group of Homo Sapiens Sapiens that migrated out of Africa 100,000 years ago. They want to believe the fallacy that all humans have a common ancestor which is true for the majority of humans except for the undeniable fact that the fossil and genetic evidence shows that the Han Chinese are the exception due to the genetic and fossil evidence shows that they are descended directly from Homo Erectus Pekinensis. 98.122.103.183 (talk) 09:48, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

This should be covered in Multiregional origin of modern humans, but that article is tagged as in need of expert attention. I have posted on WP:FTN to help recruit an expert. Itsmejudith (talk) 09:38, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

Just so you know, as an anthropologist and university professor I am an expert in this field. 98.122.103.183 (talk) 09:53, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

Just so everyone else knows, this is clearly a blocked user (see here and here). I've put a note on the admin who blocked him the last two times asking if he can follow up with another block.VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 09:57, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

To VsevolodKrolikov, I am NOT a blocked user! You are just trying to use that excuse to try and suppress the information and scientific papers that I have presented showing a separate evolution of the Han Chinese. You know very well that the scientific documents I present show that East Asians and Han Chinese have different DNA than African descended humans such as Europeans, Middle Easterners and others, so you resort to some lame personal attack on me by trying to block me. I can assure you any block will have no effect on me whatsoever. This information is here to improve the article by showing how the separate evolution of the Han Chinese resulted in the current superior intelligence level of East Asians as measured on modern IQ tests.

Keep in mind Freedom of Speech and Freedom of Press apply here on Misplaced Pages, NOT "political correctness!" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.122.103.183 (talk) 10:05, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

Uh, no they don't. This is a privately owned website, so you need to keep in mind that you can lose the privilege to edit here if you abuse it.— Dædαlus 10:50, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

OK. I'll be the one to call it. This really looks like WP:FRINGE, and should be treated as such. HiLo48 (talk) 10:23, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

To HiLo48, did you even read the scientific papers I listed above? They are published in peer reviewed scientific journals and are legitimate in every way. They are NOT "fringe" or "alternative" at the very most they are simply just not politically correct. You simply just don't like the fact that the Han Chinese evolved separately from a different species of human beings and you want to continue believing the "politically correct" imaginary fallacy that the Han Chinese are descended from same African Homo Sapien ancestors as the rest of humanity when the scientific papers show otherwise...kindly read the scientific papers. 98.122.103.183 (talk) 10:28, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

You have no idea what I like or don't like, nor, interestingly, do you have any idea about my ancestry. Do be careful what you assume. I am also no fan of PC. Your approach to discussion seems to quickly become dangerously personal. I have read thousands of scientific papers in my life. The samples I have read from those above do not impress me. HiLo48 (talk) 10:44, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

The bit about "Just so you know, as an anthropologist and university professor I am an expert in this field. 98.122.103.183" tells me they're a troll rather than just someone misunderstanding a subject. Dmcq (talk) 13:58, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

Guys, just to be fair, we have to at least give this editor the benefit of the doubt instead of attacking him viciously without first studying the scientific articles the editor listed. I've read them and they do show legitimate genetic evidence that there was some hybridization, at least, with the Peking man and the Homo Sapiens resulting in a modern Chinese population that still retains some genes from the Homo Pekinensis. I say we have to at least give these scientific papers some credence given the fact that they were indeed published, as the editor stated, in some prestigious science journals.

You know, it all boils down to the fact there is still much unknown about human evolution and the interesting theory presented by this professor should be given the same considerations as the other theories of human evolution. 72.215.74.169 (talk) 06:35, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

I did read the citations and I saw nothing like that. At best I saw some typical sensational headlines with questions which were answered in the negative by the text. Give me just one single one where the text says anything like what you say. and I'll have another read. Dmcq (talk) 09:51, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

This topic is most interesting and should be researched more thoroughly, just the mere possibility that the Chinese could be a separate species amazes me as to how evolution works in our world. I think the most compelling genetic evidence that the Han Chinese are a separate species is the fact that only East Asians possess Shovel shaped incisors which I know as fact working in the dental field that only East Asians and possibly the East Asian derivatives like Native American Indians would possess this trait. And the scientific papers listed by the above editor specifically lists the different genes which the Han Chinese inherited from Peking Man that are unique to them only and no other group of humans. I was surprised that the scientific papers got so detailed in naming the exact genes that makes the Han Chinese uniquely different from other Homo Sapiens. The anonymous editor had listed the following scientific papers that specifically details the genes that were inherited by Han Chinese from their Peking Man ancestor, I've gone over and checked the validity of each scientific paper and both the scientific journals that published these papers as well as the academic authors are quite legit and definitely worth researching and looking into to greater degree:

1.) Genetics Society of America's Genetics Journal, "Testing for Archaic Hominin Admixture on the X Chromosome: Model Likelihoods for the Modern Human RRM2P4 Region From Summaries of Genealogical Topology Under the Structured Coalescent" by Murray P. Cox, Fernando L. Mendez, Tatiana M. Karafet, Maya Metni Pilkington, Sarah B. Kingan, Giovanni Destro-Bisol, Beverly I. Strassmann and Michael F. Hammer.

2.) Oxford University's Oxford Journals, Evidence for Archaic Asian Ancestry on the Human X Chromosome by Daniel Garrigan, Zahra Mobasher, Tesa Severson, Jason A. Wilder and Michael F. Hammer

3.) Oxford University's Oxford Journals Global Patterns of Human DNA Sequence Variation in a 10-kb Region on Chromosome 1 by Ning Yu, Z. Zhao, Y.-X. Fu, N. Sambuughin, M. Ramsay, T. Jenkins, E. Leskinen, L. Patthy, L. B. Jorde, T. Kuromori and W.-H. Li

4.) BMC Biology Journal of Biology "Y chromosome evidence of earliest modern human settlement in East Asia and multiple origins of Tibetan and Japanese populations" by Shi H, Zhong H, Peng Y, Dong YL, Qi XB, Zhang F, Liu LF, Tan SJ, Ma RZ, Xiao CJ, Wells RS, Jin L, Su B.

68.96.245.221 (talk) 21:34, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Here is an interesting article about Asian vs Caucasian differences in cognitive information processing of the brain that most definitely would be the result of some genetic difference due to most East Asians inheriting Homo Erectus Pekinensis genes and Caucasians inheriting Homo Sapiens Sapiens genes:

ScienceDaily Asian brain vs. Caucasian brain differences]

68.96.245.221 (talk) 23:01, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Here are some more scientific sources that show a possible correlation with East Asians (Han Chinese) having the largest brain size possibly due to the separate evolution from Homo Erectus Pekinensis:

1.) Beals, K. L., Smith, C. L., & Dodd, S. M. (1984). Brain size, cranial morphology, climate, and time machines. Current Anthropology 25, 301–330.

2.) Ho, K. C., Roessmann, U., Straumfjord, J. V., & Monroe, G. (1980). Analysis of brain weight: I and II. Archives of Pathology and Laboratory Medicine 104, 635–645. Johnson F. W. & Jensen (1994). Race and sex differences in head size and IQ. Intelligence 18: 309–33

3.) Rushton JP. (1997). Cranial size and IQ in Asian Americans from birth to age seven. Intelligence 25: 7–20.

4.) Rushton JP (1991). Mongoloid-Caucasoid differences in brain size from military samples . Intelligence 15: 351–9.

68.96.245.221 (talk) 23:47, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

A note for everyone here in case it wasn't already known..

There is no right to edit wikipedia. The 1st amendment of the US, or generally, Freedom of Speech applies to government censorship... it in no way applies to the wikimedia foundation, which is privately owned.— Dædαlus 10:50, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

I'm having a hard time believing you're a scientist as you have shown to not be able to understand a very, very simple concept; the rules here apply to everyone, and you have no right to edit here. You also seem to misunderstand what you even write; this encyclopedia is free to read, but you can't say or do whatever you want, and it is by no means an democracy. It doesn't matter what it was founded for. What matters are the rules, and you don't have any right to edit here. Again, I suggest you read WP:FREE, and show us how smart you are by dropping this notion that you can say and do whatever you want here. Again, to make 'doubly' sure you don't miss it, you have no right to edit here, and the rules apply to everyone. WP:NOTFORUM and WP:SOAP are some of the core policies you have been violating today. I suggest you stop. By the way, your disruptive edit warring has been reported.— Dædαlus 11:19, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

I agree with what you're saying Daedalus, and thank you for making it clear, but did you want to remove the shouting from your post? It will be just as clear and more effective. Itsmejudith (talk) 11:37, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

Sure, but we should probably archive this section anyway.. the IP is blocked for 2 days with talk access removed for soapboxing.— Dædαlus 13:00, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

Has something been removed above? Daedalus seems to be talking to himself. Also this thread starts with some pretty whack and obviously false stuff. This article is a train wreck I don't want to be involved with. 72.228.177.92 (talk) 23:48, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

I have very strongly felt that same sentiment about the whole article for some time now, but I can't help myself watching and saying a few words from time to time. Train wrecks are like that. HiLo48 (talk) 00:19, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

It has only become wacky and fringe recently so you can't really say it was obviously false. The out of Africa theory has only really beaten off the opposition since DNA testing has been done and there's still room for a little intermixture as with the Neanderthals. Dmcq (talk) 00:42, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

(Adjusted your indent). Well the part about there being 2.5 billion Han certainly was. Also dunno if it's been noted in re the brain size issue, but Neaderthal actually had a larger brain than modern humans, showing conclusively, in this context anyway size doesn't in and of itself matter. 72.228.177.92 (talk) 01:18, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

I really, really loved the idea that the Chinese civil service exams provided an evolutionary selection mechanism to improve Han IQ. Years of hard study memorising Confucius so they can shag so many women it changes the genetic balance of the whole country. Mad. I've looked for sourcing for this theory, but it's not there. Pity. VsevolodKrolikov (talk) 02:00, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Editors should be aware that the IP (98.122.69.172) is a long term POV pusher who has abused several talk pages and edit warred on various articles. For examples, see 71.68.251.54 and 68.222.236.154. The current discussion was actually removed twice at a time when only the IP had posted, once by me and once by another editor. When I next noticed, the IP had posted a third time and others had responded. My suggestion for the future would be a firm application of revert, block (when necessary), ignore. Johnuniq (talk) 01:15, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Update for possible future cases: This issue was raised at WP:FTN ("evolved_from_Homo_Erectus_Pekinensis"_claim permalink) and 98.122.103.183 was blocked. Johnuniq (talk) 09:15, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

What are the core issues

There are two and we should stick with them. The first is that some recent paleoanthropological discoveries may support the multiregional hypothesis. Okay, maybe, but we hav enot seen any evidence that this has become a mainstream view. But even so, so what? The multiregional hypothesis was proposed a long time ago and like any paleoanthropological model, it is meant to explain the same data that the out of Arica model explains; these are two readings of the same basic body of evidence meaning evidence all paleoanthropolgists consider valid. Out of Africa versus Multiregional is really a debate about two different ways that speciation can occur. Anyone who does notknow this is too ignorant to discuss these recent discoveries. That's because both the proponents of Ouf of Africa and Multiregional agree that today all humans belong to th same species, H. sapiens sapiens. I know of no serious disagreement about this among anthropologists or evolutionary biologists. It's one species, meaning all members evolved to occupy the same basic niche. The Multiregional Hypothesis does not deny gene transfer among humans across huge distnaces; given that we have evidence for trade between China and Eastern Europe or North Africa for about as long as we have archeological evidence, any argumnt that Han Chinese are genetically isolated from other populations of H. sapiens sapiens bears a tremendous burden of proof. If they really were isolated, would thy not have evolved into a diferent species, rather than the same species? don't Han Chinese mate with sub-Saharan Aricans and bear fertile offspring? Same species, adapted to the same niche ... it is hard to see how this would explain diferences in IQ scores. If we are going to bring up the multiregional hypothesis, at least let's represent it accurately.

Second, is NOR. Even if the anonymous editor is an academic (and of course we have no real evidence for this), then the attempt to bypass the peer-review process by publishing in a major journals like The merican Journal of Physical nthropology or The Journal of Evolutionary Biology and instead try to use a wiki website to publish her novel theories is just shameful. A real academic would simply call our attetion to article published in prestigious peer-reviewed journals that make this argument or that indicate general scholarly acceptance of this view.

In response to PM's question about original research, the anonymous editor writes, "NO, that would be incorrect given the fact that numerous scientific studies showing evidence that modern Han Chinese possess unique genes in their DNA and a continuation of anatomical morphological traits such as cranial shape and shovel shaped incisors which are the result of a direct evolutionary lineage with the prehistoric archaic Chinese people known as Homo Erectus Pekinensis." But this quote is actually evidence that the anonymous editor is indeed violating NOR because she is using some very well-known facts that have NOTHING to do with IQ scores (like shovel shaped incisors) to support some hoeky argument about IQ. It is the worst form of logic, to suggest that because two people are diferent in one way (I have testes, she has ovaries; I have blue eyes, he has brown eyes; I have an epicanthic fold, he dows not - all inherited traits) as evidence that they are different in anothe way (I have a high IQ, she has a low IQ) is silly. All scientists know corelaqtion is not causality, this is axiomatic in the use of statistics in science. What we have here is not just originakl research, but pretty crappy research at that. Slrubenstein | Talk 12:55, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Hi everyone, I've taken an interest in this anonymous editor's posting, but in response to SLrubenstein this anonymous editor did actually post scientific papers that were indeed published in peer reviewed scientific journals. I've taken the liberty to repost the anonymous editor's scientific papers here again just to clarify the confusion, they show genetic evidence showing that modern East Asians (probably "Han Chinese" as this editor puts it) do indeed have some genes, at the very least, inherited directly from the separate archaic human species of Peking Man. Additionally, Slrubenstein mentioned that both the "out of Africa" and "multiregional" model of human evolution states we are all "Homo Sapiens Sapiens" but that is not accurate or entirely true. Take for example the Neaderthals of Europe, they were a separate species of humans who interbred with the Homo Sapiens after they arrived in Europe. There are numerous examples of two separate but evolutionarily related species interbreeding and producing viable offspring. Take for example, a dog and a wolf interbreeding and producing viable offspring. They are both classified as a separate species and yet they can still interbreed. And then the list of interspecies couplings goes on, you have interbreedings between tigers and lions producing ligers, check out this National Geographic video about the liger here:

National Geographic Liger video

Here are the anonymous editor's previous postings:

1.) Genetics Society of America's Genetics Journal, "Testing for Archaic Hominin Admixture on the X Chromosome: Model Likelihoods for the Modern Human RRM2P4 Region From Summaries of Genealogical Topology Under the Structured Coalescent" by Murray P. Cox, Fernando L. Mendez, Tatiana M. Karafet, Maya Metni Pilkington, Sarah B. Kingan, Giovanni Destro-Bisol, Beverly I. Strassmann and Michael F. Hammer.

2.) Oxford University's Oxford Journals, Evidence for Archaic Asian Ancestry on the Human X Chromosome by Daniel Garrigan, Zahra Mobasher, Tesa Severson, Jason A. Wilder and Michael F. Hammer

3.) Oxford University's Oxford Journals Global Patterns of Human DNA Sequence Variation in a 10-kb Region on Chromosome 1 by Ning Yu, Z. Zhao, Y.-X. Fu, N. Sambuughin, M. Ramsay, T. Jenkins, E. Leskinen, L. Patthy, L. B. Jorde, T. Kuromori and W.-H. Li

4.) BMC Biology Journal of Biology "Y chromosome evidence of earliest modern human settlement in East Asia and multiple origins of Tibetan and Japanese populations" by Shi H, Zhong H, Peng Y, Dong YL, Qi XB, Zhang F, Liu LF, Tan SJ, Ma RZ, Xiao CJ, Wells RS, Jin L, Su B.

5.) New Scientist Chinese evolved separately from rest of humanity

6.) Chinese Hominid Challenges Out-of-Africa Origin of Modern Man

7.) Chinese challenge to out-of-Africa theory

68.96.245.221 (talk) 21:19, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

So now we have a second anonymous editor endorsing the views of the first anonymous editor, and adding nothing new. If either of you anonymous editors was to register and show a more global interest in making Misplaced Pages a better global encyclopaedia, rather than obsessing over this single matter, your credibility would improve. HiLo48 (talk) 21:30, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

This article isn't about the multi-regional hypothesis vs the out of Africa hypothesis. Using these as references to any claims in this article would constitute WP:original research. The idea we can cite a handful of published studies of non-coding genes to imply some connection with race group disparities in IQ scores is a non-starter. This is the kind of inappropriate speculation that wikipedia does not allow cited to primary sources. It's a clear no-no. Professor marginalia (talk) 22:20, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Hey guys, I just found an interesting article that shows differences in the way East Asians (i.e. Han Chinese) and Caucasians process cognitive information. This most definitely would be the result of the evolutionary differences from East Asians being descended from Homo Erectus Pekinensis or at least inheriting some genes from them as compared to their Caucasian Homo Sapiens Sapiens counterparts.

ScienceDaily Asian brain vs Caucasian brain differences

68.96.245.221 (talk) 23:01, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

A science magazine. The PhD student who conducted the study, not into how people process cognitive information but into how they scan faces, said it could be due to biological or cultural factors. I.e. it could be due to anything. Not one word about the multiregional hypothesis. Itsmejudith (talk) 23:09, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

(ec)@IP:No, it doesn't. Focus on secondary references that speak directly to this topic, exactly. They need to say it...we don't allow sources to be used on wikipedia as mere springboards to share our own conjectures in the articles. Professor marginalia (talk) 23:09, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

And by the way domestic dogs and wolves are classified as in the same species. Domestic dogs are just wolves that have been selectively bred for a long time. Dmcq (talk) 23:16, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Hi guys, well the sciencedaily article show's difference in the way Asians and Caucasians scan faces. Scanning faces with eyes is coordinated by certain areas in the cerebral cortex of the brain, so these differences in behaviors are the result of some structural difference in the brain that makes the Asian brain different from Caucasian brain. And as for the dogs and wolves, I am well aware that all dogs are descended from the same ancestral wolf ancestor, but it used to be that the wolf and dogs were classified by biologists as two separate species, they only recently changed the "classification" which just shows you how accurate they really are. And by the way did you see the National Geographic video of the half lion half tiger hybrid....Liger? Watch the video and see for yourself, lions and tigers are confirmed to be two separate species and yet they can still interbreed. So even if Han Chinese are Homo Erectus Pekinensis and other humans are Homo Sapiens Sapiens both human species can still interbreed, as a matter of fact if a pure blooded Homo Neanderthalensis was still around any human could still interbreed with them without any problems despite all three types of humans being separate species. 68.96.245.221 (talk) 23:34, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Here are some more sources showing that East Asians (i.e. Han Chinese) have larger brain size than other groups of humans, we can possibly speculate that this difference brain size may be attributed to the separate evolution of East Asians (i.e. Han Chinese) from Homo Erectus Pekinensis. Otherwise, if the East Asians are descended from the same Homo Sapiens Sapiens ancestors as everyone else they would have similar brain sizes with everyone else. But that's not the case, their brain sizes actually measure to be the largest of all humans which suggests to me some evolutionary difference in the way they were bred, whatever natural selection or artificial selective pressure caused them to evolve larger brain size has still not been established but remains to seen. Here are the sources:

1.) Beals, K. L., Smith, C. L., & Dodd, S. M. (1984). Brain size, cranial morphology, climate, and time machines. Current Anthropology 25, 301–330.

2.) Ho, K. C., Roessmann, U., Straumfjord, J. V., & Monroe, G. (1980). Analysis of brain weight: I and II. Archives of Pathology and Laboratory Medicine 104, 635–645. Johnson F. W. & Jensen (1994). Race and sex differences in head size and IQ. Intelligence 18: 309–33

3.) Rushton JP. (1997). Cranial size and IQ in Asian Americans from birth to age seven. Intelligence 25: 7–20.

4.) Rushton JP (1991). Mongoloid-Caucasoid differences in brain size from military samples . Intelligence 15: 351–9.

68.96.245.221 (talk) 23:47, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

This has been explained several times, and I've left a message on your talk page. But if you want this collapse reversed, I will close the discussion again by spelling it out here as directly as I can. You cannot use these kinds of references in this manner to source anything in this article. At all. We are merely editors here. We don't share our hypotheses born of tantalizing but extremely preliminary research studies. We don't supply new conclusions that are not directly made in the sources themselves. We cannot line up an assortment of different sources, put them together, and draw new conclusions with them. We are not going to talk about how these ideas might be true here, or how these sources might lend support to them. Unless you have a solid relevant authoritative secondary source that says that "Chinese have higher IQ scores because they inherited a unique myo gene from homo erectus in Asia" you absolutely cannot add it to the article, nor can the talk page be used to entertain a debate about such a wild conjecture. And I warn you that this is only the bare minimum, just one hurdle. Your analysis of these handful of studies is far too premature to be given serious consideration here. That's all there is to it. Professor marginalia (talk) 00:30, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Well, do you not consider that the scientific studies showing the East Asian (Han Chinese) inheriting unique DNA to be quite compelling? It is undeniable that some East Asians have unique DNA inherited from Homo Erectus Pekinensis and the scientific papers posted by the above editor are legit.68.96.245.221 (talk) 00:43, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Doesn't matter if you, I, or any other editor thinks it's "compelling". That's the point. Stick to what the authors say only. And none of them you've cited address this topic. Professor marginalia (talk) 00:47, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

68.96... - Compelling is the wrong word. Like a lot of other scientific work, I find the study of interest, but as Professor marginalia says, there is nothing in that work that is ready yet for publication in Misplaced Pages. Misplaced Pages doesn't work that way. Nor does it appear to be relevant to this article. HiLo48 (talk) 00:51, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Actually, both the sources "Evidence for Archaic Asian Ancestry on the Human X Chromosome" and "Testing for Archaic Hominin Admixture on the X Chromosome: Model Likelihoods for the Modern Human RRM2P4 Region" have been previously published in highly respected peer reviewed scientific publications, respectively Oxford University's Oxford Journals and Genetics Society of America's Genetics Journal. The fact these scientific studies have been published in these prestigious journals qualifies them for wikipedia. If those sources had not been published in these scientific journals I would've said otherwise. But it's undeniable that these studies do indeed show quite convincing evidence that the East Asians (Han Chinese) have different DNA than the rest of us Homo Sapiens. 68.96.245.221 (talk) 00:59, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

What is the topic of this article? What do you think the article about? Professor marginalia (talk) 01:26, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

The professor is right. This stuff, while interesting, is irrelevant to this article. And, publication does not turn primary sources into secondary sources. An article in Nature, or something similar, might, but that still won't make it relevant. HiLo48 (talk) 01:29, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

The second anonymous user is just spamming. And lying. She writes that "That's because both the proponents of Ouf of Africa and Multiregional agree that today all humans belong to the same species, H. sapiens sapiens." She says I am wrong and brings of H s. neanderthalensis as proof. But wait ... is this person seriously suggesting that H.s.n. are alive today? Advocates of both hypothesies acknowledge the former existence of Neanderthals, but so what? My point is that both acknowledge that everyone today belongs to the same species. She then mentions that wolves and dogs canmate and have viable ofspring - so? is she comparing Chinese to wolves and everyone else to dogs? This is absurd and misses the point entirely: the cited articles are using genetic data to support the MRH. Fine. But that doesn't mean that Han Chinese and others belong to diferent species, nor does it have anything to do with race and intelligence. Slrubenstein | Talk 12:28, 21 December 2010 (UTC)ca s

And the only genetic evidence in those papers of genes outside of those from the most recent spread out of Africa is for the south of Asia, the Andeman Islands and Japan. Not the Han Chinese. Anyway just because all my family and relatives as far as I know are more intelligent than the average Chinese doesn't mean we evolved separately from the rest of mankind. Dmcq (talk) 13:51, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

What qualifies you to say that you have "higher IQ" than the average Han Chinese? Do you have any outstanding accomplishments? When I read more and more about China they are progressing at tremendously fast rate, they built the worlds fastest supercomputer surpassing the USA, they have their manned space program, they've built the fastest and most extensive railway line in the world. Their population size is so large that the number people who have genius level intelligence surpasses anywhere else in the world. Plus, they are educating and producing more Ph.D engineers, scientists and medical doctors than any other country on the face of the earth. This amounts to the highest amount of supremely intelligent people being concentrated in China for sole purpose of making their country a superior global superpower, if you think I'm joking just go read the book "When China rules the world" here is the link:

And just for the matter of discussion, I'm not Chinese or East Asian. As far as I know, I'm 100% Western European, although I suspect I do have some Eastern European slavic genes from some of my ancestors from Poland. But I admire the history of the Chinese and their accomplishments and ancient history but I'm also proud of what my European culture has produced. And also, another thing I getting the impression that some people coming on this page may have some "racist" beliefs. I've always been a person who respected other people based on both character and achievement, but in the event that some don't have high achievement then in that case I would respect them based upon their good personal character. So if a low achieving homeless person or somebody from a primitive Amazon tribe came up to me, and assuming that they are nice people, I would still respect them because in this situation I can't judge them based on their achievement but rather I have judge them by their personal character. I hope all people reading this will subscribe to a philosophy of NON-RACISM and of course I know that people are not same, that IQ's of different people or different species of humans are NOT same, but that is aside from the point of being a civilised gentile person. You can't go around the world acting like the Waffen SS, stupid Hitler or KKK. Try to be at peace with all people, even if you know that they may have been bred or evolved to have superior genes giving them superior intelligence. I learned a long time ago to just be happy with what I have and with what I can accomplish. Don't go trying to compare yourself to some 12 year old East Asian kid who happens to have an IQ 200 and is already attending the combined MD/Ph.D program in medical school.

Check out the link of this kid Sho Yano:

1.) 12 year old IQ 200 Asian boy genius attends medical school

2.) IQ 200 Asian boy genius recieves Ph.D at 18

3.) Asian boy genius with IQ 200

68.96.245.221 (talk) 22:22, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

@Numerous directly above, agreed, none of this has anything to do with race and intelligence. And, really, how often are we going to revisit brain size, et al.? PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 16:48, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Brain size has everything to do with intelligence, superior intelligence is the product of both complex neural connections as well as overall cranial size. In simplest terms, provided the individual inherited certain genes, a bigger brain allows more complex neural connections to be formed allowing a higher level of comprehension and cognitive thought processes to occur as compared to someone of a smaller less complex brain.68.96.245.221 (talk) 22:22, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

And regarding "And by the way domestic dogs and wolves are classified as in the same species. Domestic dogs are just wolves that have been selectively bred for a long time. Dmcq (talk) 23:16, 20 December 2010 (UTC)", agreed; furthermore, the real relevant point, were one to descend into such argumentation, is that despite the seeming infinite variety in canis lupus familiaris, they are all a single subspecies. That all said, let's at least appear to try to stick to applicable sources which discuss humans. PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 16:59, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Selective breeding is basically a type of artificial selection. So basically instead of allowing the natural environment of Earth to implement natural selection we humans, in this case Homo Sapiens (although Neanderthal and Homo Erectus Pekinensis may possibly have domesticated some animals). As the animal is selective bred, it evolves and this evolution is changing it's DNA over time so that after thousands and thousands of generations what was once one single species has now evolved into two separate species. I must remind you that all humans, regardless of whether you are Homo Sapiens or Homo Pekinensis, share a common ancestor with Pan Troglodytes (i.e. Chimpanzees) and Pan Bonobo (i.e. Bonobo) sometime in the prehistoric past around 5-7 million years ago. So if we are to use your reasoning, then would modern Homo Sapiens and Homo Erectus Pekinensis not still be considered to be a selectively bred "Chimpanzee"??? And just reemphasize my original statement that two separate species that have a common evolutionary origin can still interbred, you should watch the video of the alleged half-human half-Chimpanzee hybrid called "Oliver the Humanzee". And of course I know many scientists have tried to explain it away as just a genetically different subspecies of the common chimpanzee, but we must ask the question what if he really is a "Humanzee"?? Here's the link, watch it:

Human-Chimpanzee hybrid Humanzee

68.96.245.221 (talk) 22:22, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

It appears some people are misinterpreting my statements, I mentioned Homo Neanderthanlensis as only a hypothetical example that if they still lived they would be able to interbred fully with Homo Sapiens Sapiens to illustrate the point that the classification system created by Carl Linnaeus is not entirely accurate as to what represents a species because there are always going to be exceptions as the case with the lion and tiger interbreeding to create a liger, which is proven fact as shown in the National Geographic video I posted. And second, humans on this planet have not be "proven" to be the "same species" of Homo Sapiens Sapiens, what simply has happened due to socio-political reasons is that all humans are "assumed" NOT "proven" to be members of the sames species, just wishful thinking not reality. Most people want to believe the myth that we are descended from the same species...that we are all the "same." When in fact past history and recent scientific research has shown conclusively that all Non-African Homo Sapiens Sapiens had interbred with Neanderthals, which means that every non-African living today has up to 70 different unique genes inherited from Homo Neanderthalensis, whereas Africans do not. Just the mere fact these two human species interbred blows away the "out of Africa" model of human evolution. This suggests the additional possibility that Homo Sapiens Sapiens migrating out of Africa 100,000 years ago may also have interbred with other species of archaic humans like Homo Erectus Pekinensis in China and Homo floresiensis in Indonesia. I am including sources, please read them:

1.) National Geographic Society Homo Sapiens interbred with Homo Neanderthalensis

2.) National Geographic Society DNA proves Homo Sapiens interbred with Homo Neanderthalensis

3.) Daily Mail Homo Sapiens interbred twice with Homo Neanderthalensis

4.) Neanderthal interbred with Humans

68.96.245.221 (talk) 22:22, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Added Lede Sentences

these are on my talk page in the thread notifying me of the Arbcom involvement in this article. As noted above, I don't want to wade into the mess here, did so inadvertently yesterday, and think I may have been involved a few years ago before it had reached the current level of controversy. I don't believe the excised text is inaccurate or in violation of any wiki policies known to me and do believe that it answers the action requested by the tags in restoring balance to the Lede. That the primary variation in genetics is within and not between groups, that the genetic contribution to intelligence is multi-focal, that there is more human genetic diversity in Africa than anywhere else, etc., are all "obviously" relevant to the phenomenon in question. Lycurgus (talk) 10:40, 14 December 2010 (UTC)

Noting that yes, I am well aware of the difference between genotype and phenotype, and for that matter between genetic and epigenetic characters. Nonetheless for a phenotypic trait to become associated with a physical as distinct from a cultural group it must be based on a difference in the genome. This isn't meant to encourage an immature or banned user but for completeness of my contribution to the important discussion here and so that a random reader will not assume the removed comment had value other than as venom. Lycurgus (talk) 12:32, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Wait a second buddy. You wanted to edit war to insert this: "That there are differences in intellectual attainment between "racially" distinct populations is not disputed. However the modern scientific conception of "race", which shows that there is more genetic variation within than between race groups, casts doubt on the basis of these results.", which was unsourced, is not relevant to the phenomenon in question, and doesn't even make sense. Please stop trying to cover your ass, your pants are down, and we all saw. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.137.222.37 (talk) 14:20, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

Let me give you an example: "That there are differences in skin color between "racially" distinct populations is not disputed. However the modern scientific conception of "race", which shows that there is more genetic variation within than between race groups, casts doubt on the basis of these results." or "That there are differences in height between "racially" distinct populations is not disputed. However the modern scientific conception of "race", which shows that there is more genetic variation within than between race groups, casts doubt on the basis of these results." See how stupid that sounds? Same logic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.40.189.197 (talk) 18:28, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

I have tagged the article with Globalize Tag...

I have tagged the article with Globalize Tag due to the primarily American View point. There is no such mention on Chinese Efforts to prove a race and intelligence nor the nazi view points in the historical. The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 00:21, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Can you provide us with sources? I did not know that the Nazis used Stanford Binet, nor the Chinese. It is hard to make international comparisons when the data is not comparable. But if you know of comparabl data or studies, please, let us know about them. Slrubenstein | Talk 00:26, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

If we can get reliable sources describing any Chinese or Nazi research agendas around this topic, we could add something. The research doesn't have to be comparable with the North American/European research, we just have to have enough to say something meaningful. It doesn't have to be good research and we don't have to endorse its conclusions. Itsmejudith (talk) 21:50, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

1. David F Marks (2010). "IQ variations across time, race, and nationality:an artifact of differences in literacy skills". Psychological Reports. 106: 643–664. {{cite journal}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |1= (help)

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