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Record Charts NA‑class

This page is within the scope of WikiProject Record Charts, a group of Wikipedians interested in improving the encyclopaedic coverage of articles relating to Record charts. If you would like to help out, you are welcome to drop by the project page and/or leave a query at the project's talk page.Record ChartsWikipedia:WikiProject Record ChartsTemplate:WikiProject Record ChartsRecord Charts NA This page does not require a rating on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.

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Edit table

There isn't the link of the BPI in the certifications of the singles in UK and there isn't the link of the RIAJ for the certifications in Japan (from 2003 to date for Gold & Platinum and Million from the launch of the award) http://www.riaj.or.jp/data/others/gold/index.html -- http://www.riaj.or.jp/data/others/million_list/index.html . Furthemore, the CRIA certified also in the RPM era, not only in the SoundScan era (it's divided in the table). SJ (talk) 16:55, 28 March 2010 (UTC+1)

I fogot to signal also the link of the Norway official chart that include an all-time archive. http://lista.vg.no/ Also the link for the Diamond Award in Poland. http://www.zpav.pl/plyty.asp?page=diamentowe&lang=pl SJ (talk) 18:52, 28 March 2010 (UTC+1)

Italian Albums Chart

In the few days, i re-examined the criteria of the two Italian albums charts: FIMI and Musica e Dischi. I discovered that at least until the early 2009, Musica e Dischi covered more point of sales than FIMI.

• Musica e Dischi covered 100 specialized stores, the total of the large areas and the principal chain stores to free national service ( http://web.archive.org/web/20060421162255/www.musicaedischi.it/classifiche.php ). I written to the magazine for to know what is the total and is circa 600 point of sales (in the '60s was 4,000. From '60s to date a lot of shops were closed).

• FIMI covered only 275 point of sales until the end of the 2008 ( http://www.fimi.it/dett_ddmercato.php?id=42 ), when expanded its panel to 1,400. In July 2009 expanded the panel from 1,400 to 3,000 point of sales ( http://www.adnkronos.com/IGN/News/Spettacolo/?id=3.0.3563994896 ) and from January 2010 from 3,000 to 3,400 ( http://www.fimi.it/gfk_notametodologica.php ).

I think that at least until early/mid 2009 we would include it in the table of the reliable charts (for the albums).

I don't know for the singles, i know that's used by MTV Italy and includes physical and digital singles, but physical singles sales are very poor and FIMI covers more digital stores than Musica e Dischi. Maybe before 2008 could be used because FIMI considered the Physical Chart the main singles chart and Musica e Dischi from 2006 used also the download in its single chart. At the moment, i haven't got sufficient material for to affirm what of the both singles charts covers more point of sales before 2008. SJ (talk) 1:56, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

I think that we should do a new source page like for Japan. Misplaced Pages:Manual_of_Style_(record_charts)/sourcing_guide/Japan

SJ (talk) 0:15, 09 September 2010 (UTC)

Remove succession boxes

Coincidentally, I had just started a discussion over at WikiProject Albums talk page to get some feedback about the need for these succession boxes in album articles. I realize that this project may be the better forum for that and will centralize the discussion here.

What purpose beyond navigational do succession boxes for albums reaching number one in various countries serve such as in the article for Recovery? The table listing chart positions already provides the same information, so this is just repeating that it reached number one. The "Reception" section provides more in depth info regarding the album's chart success, so it seems redundant and unnecessary to have a series of succession boxes that seem only to provide links to entirely unrelated articles on other albums. For those truly interested in the succession of number ones for a particular country or chart, they can be found in Category:Lists of number one albums. If they're going to exist for the sole purpose of navigation between albums, shouldn't the boxes be placed at the bottom of an article per WP:FOOTERS where navboxes are supposed to be. --Starcheerspeaksnewslostwars (talk) 18:04, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

I honestly don't think that they serve any other purpose than easy navigation. I agree with you that the current use of these "number 1" navigation boxes seems quite random (highly depending on the article and the country). But it would be a helluva job to remove them all, since they are all over the place. And yes, I agree that they should be placed at the bottom with the other navigation boxes, per your MOS reference. It will be interesting to hear other opinions. – IbLeo 20:25, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Those boxes are cruft and I'd delete them altogether. No one reads articles that way. —Gendralman (talk) 00:59, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

I noticed that this topic had gained some momentum in December of last year within this project as shown here and here, with general consensus appearing to be against the boxes, but it seemed to have stalled and nothing was done. Thanks everyone. --Starcheerspeaksnewslostwars (talk) 17:25, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

However I once nominated List of Number One Hot Dance Airplay Songs (U.S. 2009) for deletion and ALL of the comments opposed its deletion citing that it was an intergral part of the navigation of articles on wikipedia. The deletion of number one list articles and succession boxes are linked because if one is deleted the other becomes more redundent. I must note however that succession boxes do sometimes make it easier to track how long and when a song was number one - info which isnt always included in the prose. -- Lil_℧niquℇ №1 (talk2me) 18:12, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

You don't need succession boxes to identify lengths of stay at number one. Lists also perform this function and, as you say, help in the navigation of articles. I view this as the better alternative over cluttering otherwise good articles. --Starcheerspeaksnewslostwars (talk) 18:42, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Removing all these boxes would mean deleting the hard work of many Wikipedians who have spent a lot of time to add them, and when they did it, these boxes were allowed by WP rules. Using the template {{s-start-collapsible}} appears to be a good compromise to keep the succession boxes (to those who find them useful to naviguate from a number one single to another one) while hiding them to those who do not want to see them. PS: Sorry for my bad English! --Europe22 (talk) 18:28, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Deleting other peoples' hard work is part of what we do here. Except for the vandals, and giggly teens adding some funny crap or a naughty word, everybody has tried to improve the project, and a lot of the hard work is replacing other peoples' hard work. I know there would be much wailing if we just killed these things, but dates used to be wikilinked, at considerable effort, but were later undone project-wide. What I mean to say is, there's some precedent for removal, as long as it improves WP. — JohnFromPinckney (talk) 10:17, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

If it were up to me, they'd be gone. However, efforts to remove them invariably meet with stiff resistance, which means there is no consensus to remove them. I can't think of a solid policy reason to remove them that would make me discount that resistance in any way.—Kww(talk) 18:29, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

But that resistance comes from trying to remove them from articles where they exist when so many articles have them. In other words, I think most people add them in because that's what is done in other articles. When there have been actual discussions, consensus doesn't seem to favor them. --Starcheerspeaksnewslostwars (talk) 18:57, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Consensus among editors that talk rarely outweighs consensus among editors that do. There would be a lot less articles about trivial fictional characters if it did.—Kww(talk) 19:11, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

As Europe22 has pointed out, collapsible format reduces load time and page size significantly so if you wish to see nav. boxes removed purely because of article size I assume that you will encounter resistance. -- Lil_℧niquℇ №1 (talk2me) 19:48, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Clutter is only one reason. They are navigational boxes not informational and redundant ones at that. The fact that they are number one is already shown in the chart tables and/or the prose; the befores and afters have no significance to these articles and can easily be found in the lists of #1's for the respective charts. --Starcheerspeaksnewslostwars (talk) 20:31, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

On second thought's I'm getting fed up of them. Can i join the queue to shoot them? -- Lil_℧niquℇ №1 (talk2me) 09:55, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Lil-unique1, I think you might be wrong about how collapsed table data works (although I am not sure). It is my belief that the data still comes from the server, whether displayed (expanded) or not, and so load time and page weight in KB remain the same. Further, it seems (supported by my tests) that the whole page gets loaded no matter what, for all of us whether we have JavaScript on or not; the whole page is displayed, including things like succession boxes which are supposed to be collapsed; then, those of us with JS on (if we could see that part of the page the whole time) would see the succession boxes disappear, as the JavaScript which collapses them is run.

It's true that visible page length, for those running JavaScript, is reduced with succession boxes collapsed, so if that's what you meant, I agree. But the load times are long either way, as long as the succession boxes are in the page, so removing them would be the only way to improve that aspect. — JohnFromPinckney (talk) 10:17, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure the techinicalities. But if you look at I Am... Sasha Fierce album, it loads way faster now that most of the tracklisting is collapsed and now that the succession boxes are collapsed. From 'loading' I mean both the time it takes from you cliking on a link to the page and it loading, as well as the time it takes to scroll through the article. However I'm not fussed either way. I am beginning to find them infernal. -- Lil_℧niquℇ №1 (talk2me) 10:22, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Kww, campaigning on that platform, you'd have my vote so that it would be up to you. I hate these things. I guess they're useful for some folks, but I'm not one of them.

As for policy arguments, there's always WP:V, as the date ranges provided are never referenced in the succession boxes, and only sometimes even discussed in the text, more rarely referenced thoroughly. If we said that the dates (1) have to go completely, since they're unreferenced there, or (2) they can stay if they're referenced in the box ("July 10, 2010"), or (3) they can stay only if they're completely sourced through the text (like the ref exemption for the lede), then we could still get rid of quite a number of instances of these things, if not all of them.

Removing the dates completely would help with (1) the problem of verifiability, (2) the problem, mentioned in the preceding thread and constantly recurring, that editors will mangle the dates that are to be put there in the first place, (3) the idea that the succession boxes are navigational aids.

The precession of No 1's on the Paraguay Top 200 Singles Chart would still be an inappropriate addition, even if we don't have unverified dates, because we probably wouldn't have any refs in the text for the subject's performance in Paraguay (and assuming the predeccessor and successor songs had WP articles to link to).

For me, the lack of sourcing is the biggest thing (besides the visual clutter of something I find useless), but it seems like WP:INDISCRIMINATE might apply, too. There's also WP:UNDUE, as another user mentioned, since we're placing a lot of emphasis on the No. 1s and not on the No. 3s or No. 10s or even the biggest gainers or longest-charting works, etc. — JohnFromPinckney (talk) 10:17, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

The more we discuss individual issues the more it seems like the termination of succession boxes is impending. I think it really needs to be done. The idea that they're navigational aids in songs/albums is incorrect because the chain is often broke when a song or album doesn't have an article and with something like Hot Dance Club Songs it tends to happen a lot. Also along with WP:V it encourages the creation of 'List of number one xyz' articles which are also unsourced. Often its confusing whether the list is generated from the succession boxes or the other way round. Also the navigation idea is flawed as not every chart has an appending 'List of number ones' article to go with it. We'd be killing loads of birds with one stone by doing this. I don't buy the idea that we'd be undoing lots of hard work and taking away an important job for editors who spend a lot of time doing something. Just because time is invested in Succession boxes it doesn't mean that its a good use of time or effective implementation of information. -- Lil_℧niquℇ №1 (talk2me) 10:29, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for the additional arguments against the boxes. Succession boxes are supposed to be navigational and in too many cases they are not even that. Between this discussion and previous ones (see links in my first post to this topic above), there seems to be a general feeling to remove them. I don't know how a consensus is to be reached on something like this, especially if as Kww says consensus of those who do outweighs those who talk. I'd like to see at least the removal of the statement that encourages their use on WP:SONGS. --Starcheerspeaksnewslostwars (talk) 07:16, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

I think the initial idea was a good one and in fact when they first started appearing I kept changing them to avoid circular links, e.g. if a song dropped from #1, then returned again, I attempted (unsuccessfully) to keep the before/after titles different.... kinda like if you were reading Fred Bronson's Number-Ones book: songs that returned to #1 would not appear again on the next page. Then of course the "first run" and "second run" crap started, then a succession box for every chart in every country. At first I figured it was interesting to place number-ones into context, especially when looking at a popular song from decades ago or a particular era, to see what else was popular at the same time. Now, however, they're a disaster and an eyesore. Delete them all. - eo (talk) 13:40, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

You can try to remove them, but bear in mind that you will have to obey WP:3RR, and people that put them back won't be treated as vandals. I suspect you will find it a fruitless effort, but nothing keeps you from trying.—Kww(talk) 14:34, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Revisited item. AGREE to removal....stated well by Starcheerspeaksnewslostwars "...They are navigational boxes not informational and redundant ones at that. The fact that they are number one is already shown in the chart tables and/or the prose; the befores and afters have no significance to these articles and can easily be found in the lists of #1's for the respective charts."emphasis added—Iknow23 (talk) 05:30, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Just so you know, i will be removing them from any articles I encounter and per this dicussion they are not part of my GANs. -- Lil_℧niquℇ №1 | talk2me 00:42, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

At the moment I am indifferent, because they can be useful for navigation, but slow down load time and usually look quite messy. Adabow (talk · contribs) 00:58, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Strongly oppose These tables are very useful indeed. I also am amazed coleagues are deciding to delete such succession boxes before even reaching a concensus on it. Absolutely nothing should be done until a concensus has been reached and officially conveyed in a style manual for #1 singles. From what I understand from some comments, colleagues are deleting at will and in a haphazard way, that is where they meet a table by chance, and leaving them where they don't browse. This is not admissable. Editing should not be a "hit and miss" thing. Either all stay or all go. As simple as that. By taking the initiative WITHOUT concensus, you are effectively deleting valuable information about singles where which singles replaced which single is very significant indeed. This becomes a hit or miss process left at the will of this or that (over)zealous editor. We are discussing a very important matter, that will have a big effect on how Misplaced Pages will look in the future, yet editors have been applying their preferences without even waiting for a general decision about it. Such behaviour defeats the purpose of discussing anything in forums. I would request refraining from now on deleteing any table BEFORE reaching concensus and official application on Misplaced Pages, and I stress, throughout Misplaced Pages in a uniform manner and in one shot. A program can be designed for automatic cancellation of all such tables WHEN decision is taken. Meanwhile keep everything as is. And will it be too much to ask that you restore also what you have deleting without concensus? werldwayd (talk) 16:17, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Succession boxes

So what's the consensus here after five days? Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • 03:46, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

Heh, well, my consensus is to remove them for failing WP:V (they're never sourced and the issue dates are frequently incorrect/mangled) flavored with a bit of WP:INDISCRIMINATE. Replace with See also links to WP lists of number ones on whatever chart and similar categories. — JohnFromPinckney (talk) 06:54, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

Support John's ideas EMPHATICALLY!—Iknow23 (talk) 21:18, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

Support -- Lil_℧niquℇ №1 | talk2me 01:02, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

'Succession' is really for Heads of States or Monarchies. Like NAME is the xx th President of the United States, King of England, etc. Who ever heard that "Song" is the xxx th Number 1 on the Billboard Hot 100 for example?! It is TOO much extraneous info. (Just in case anyone is unsure of my position, HA) —Iknow23 (talk) 01:17, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

omgsupport. See also links are so much neater than those useless succession boxes! AnemoneProjectors 01:37, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Im really indifferent about the succession boxes, don't really care if they go away, but I must say that at least they can be collapsed, I say this because some articles know replaced them with "See Also" sections with countless numbers of List of number-one singles here, list of number-one singles there which in my opinion looks worst, maybe not for songs that didn't top many charts, but for songs like "Wannabe" I would have to put lists for the UK, US, Australia, Ireland, New Zealand, Germany, France, the Netherlands, Europe, Belgium Flanders and Wallonia, Sweden, Denmark, etc. And I don't even want to consider songs that were successful and then have a popular cover like "Lady Marmalade" or "Venus". Frcm1988 (talk) 02:35, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

The issue with lists is an interim thing as there is also an argument for the mass deletion on these 'lists' under WP:INDISCRIMINATE and copyright issues but that's for another day and another post. -- Lil_℧niquℇ №1 | talk2me 02:40, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps I wasn't clear Im not against the lists at all, in fact I will oppose to erase them. Im against the replacing of the succession boxes for "See Also" sections with more than 20 lists, one for every single chart that it topped. For example "California Gurls". Frcm1988 (talk) 03:08, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Is there anything about this that categories won't provide? I could make {{singlechart}} automatically add categories for every chart that a song hit number 1 in. Those who insist on doing it manually could do that too.—Kww(talk) 03:34, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

I had been replacing succession boxes with a "see also" section as a compromise to those who may have objected to the removal of the succession boxes. I have no problem with not including the lists of #1's at all. On the other hand, the "see also" section is placed above the references and, for songs like "Wannabe" and "California Gurls", they already contain so many references that I don't see how even a long list of links to #1 lists looks any worse than the countless number of references that follow. One of the many issues I had with succession boxes is that they had started being given their own section as if the chart succession was important to the article itself, when they should be at the bottom of the page just above any artist navbox per WP:FOOTERS. Finally, having a number one category for seemingly every can be considered overcategorization (do we need one for every country and every Billboard chart?) And yet, there are no categories at all for #1 albums (many deleted in CFDs), so the method described by Kww could not be done for albums. --Starcheerspeaksnewslostwars (talk) 07:08, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Sure it might not look so bad for articles with tons of references, but articles of songs and albums are mostly unsourced. "California Gurls" have 13 links, but imagine "Candle in the Wind 1997" number one in 18 charts, Madonna's "Hung Up", reached number one on 20 charts, or "Poker Face", which reached number one on 22 charts. And other songs like "Lady Marmalade" will have one for Labelle's version, other for the All Saints, and other for the Moulin Rouge song, I don't think that putting all of those lists on see also sections is the best way, specially for the most successful songs and albums. Frcm1988 (talk) 07:38, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

How about we use the {{col-2}} template in such cases? — Legolas 07:50, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

There are not lists for every chart in which a song or album hit #1 (not that they couldn't be created), so it wouldn't be as many as the number of charts it reached #1. But if you say you'd rather not see succession boxes or a "see also" list, I'm all for it. --Starcheerspeaksnewslostwars (talk) 16:42, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

I'll repeat my question, as no one seems to have heard it: why aren't categories the best solution for this?—Kww(talk) 17:00, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

I mentioned it above and noted that it would be unable to work for albums as they don't exist and have been regularly deleted in CFD as nondefining and overcategorization. If the categories are going to exist for songs, then your solution seems acceptable. --Starcheerspeaksnewslostwars (talk) 18:58, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Since it is overcategorization to put it a category that it is ONE of the number 1's (categories DELETED), then most assuredly it is overcategorization to list even more detail reporting the 'prior' and 'next' number 1's in succession boxes!—Iknow23 (talk) 23:24, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

I personally don't see the 'general' fascination with outlining a subject's number one achievements. These days songs/albums can be successful without reaching number one and often their long term sales, certifications and critical responses are more significant. IMO we don't need categories or succession boxes. There are already chart tables and it will almost definately be mentioned in prose twice (once in the intro and second time in chart performance section). -- Lil_℧niquℇ №1 | talk2me 23:33, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

AGREED. I ignore succession boxes, THESE kinds of categories, and lists. But all that goes way beyond the scope of this discussion.—Iknow23 (talk) 23:52, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Just wanted to say I don't think there are too many "See also" Links in California Gurls. It's just a shame the list titles aren't consistent, but that's another discussion. But these see also links should be included because that's generally how see also sections are used. AnemoneProjectors 00:21, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

I've nudged that list just a bit, so maybe it's not as bad as it had been (although I'm not going to fight to get them all renamed to some agreeable pattern (those 13 links use at least 6 different naming patterns). — JohnFromPinckney (talk) 04:08, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

The categories might be a good way to go, although the before-and-after info won't be available that way, so maybe it'd be an unsatisfying substitute for those who are interested in such info. Having links in the See also list generally plunks the user at a list showing the succession list at his first click. — JohnFromPinckney (talk) 04:08, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

• Strongly Oppose No concensus has been reached about this. As far as I am concerned, all this discussion is very sketchy and those who are acting on deleting succession boxes after 5 days of discussion by a handful of people are acting out of their own preferences and pre-judgements disregarding concensus on what I consider a majour issue that merits far more widespread discussions than what Ive seen so far on these two separate threads here. Discussions should be on a much wider scale, information about the existence of such a discussion should be made more public and more prominently to garner bigger participation as singles and albums articles represent a huge chunk of information on Misplaced Pages. Enough dmaage has already been done by the few here who started deleting stuff before concensus while discussion is still going on. This practice should be stopped as it defeats the whole reasoning and purpose behind discussing issues, let alone a majour issue like this that has repurcussions on tens of thousands of Misplaced Pages pages and is leading into deleting what many may consider relevant information. There is nothing against succession tables in manual instructions to us but rather many indications of how to prepare them. My suggestion is refraining from further deletions. My way of thinking is: Either all get deleted or all stay. It shouldn't be left to the chance visits of some (over)zealous editors and random deletions of pages you visit, whereas other pages you don't visit stay untouched. We need consistency on applying rules, not random 'by chance deletions. I am also requesting, if possible that you restore the information you have deleted from multiple pages. Without concensus being reached prior and without that concensus reached being reflected in a clear statement on the style manuals for #1 singles, nothing shouldbe done. Incidentally when such concensus is reached, we will not need individual deletions anyway. A general edit program can be designed to delete them all in one shot. werldwayd (talk) 18:57, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

The Succession box discussion has not been kept a secret. Prior discussions were made more public, see ] and ].—Iknow23 (talk) 19:30, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Consensus on use of succession boxes?

How is consensus reached? I have begun removing succession boxes from articles for #1 songs. My feeling is consensus has been reached, at least for a particular article, if my change is not reverted, as has happened for Love the Way You Lie and California Gurls (which I changed a week and a half ago for each). I have encountered resistance at such articles such as Tik Tok (song), 3 (song), and All the Lovers, and so I have invited each user who has reverted the change to the discussion above. There has been little response, though, and those who have either don't like them or are indifferent but just want an "official" consensus. Well, how does that happen?

I have compiled below links to previous discussions regarding the use of succession boxes in these types of articles, with the earliest found dated June 1997 and in-depth discussion beginning in December 2009, revisted in March 2010, and the current discussions that I began last month. Note that some discussions pertain to the issues with succession boxes and not necessarily their removal.

1. Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Songs/Archive 2#Chronologies - succession
2. Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style (record charts)/Archive 7#Succession boxes
3. Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style (record charts)/Archive 7#Succession boxes, are they effectively 'affiliate advertising'?
4. Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style (record charts)/Archive 10#Billboard Charts: Each charts spans a WEEK's time, not just one day.
5. Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Albums/Archive 35#Can we officially discourage chart succession boxes?
6. Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style (record charts)#Remove succession boxes

Thanks everyone! --Starcheerspeaksnewslostwars (talk) 18:00, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

Hi, I started one of those discussions and contributed to several of the others. I don't like them as you probably know from reviewing the prior material you've located. I think the REAL problem is (and I hope my undertanding of a comment by Kww earlier is correct), is that they are SO WIDESPREAD, and numerous editors are committed in doing them...so even though they are silent here...they OBVIOUSLY want them and will RESIST to the end of days. I just checked Tik Tok (song) and I see that my edit to collapse it into an 'Order of precedence' has not been reverted, yet! I'm sure I did that months ago and someone took it off again. I think the collapsed version might be the best compromise position; the material gets to remain for those trully interested, and for those of us that are not--we don't have to see the large 'chunk of junk' on the page. I think maybe we could gather support for the collapseable version to be used when the number of entries exceeds X. <Amount to be determined.—Iknow23 (talk) 04:14, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

I just noticed a comment on your talk page regarding "Start Without You". Although I am personally fine if I NEVER see another succession box, in that article it does not appear to be excessive (so far). Perhaps choose the big huge ones to go after? As in pick your battles? The small ones aren't that bad. They are easier for me to ignore :)—Iknow23 (talk) 04:30, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

If we can establish a habit of not using them in new articles and removing them in GAs for example the novelty will wear off. The other option (much more difficult to convince the need for) would be to ask a BOT to remove them whenever/wherever they appear in large instances but for that there would need to be a very detailed discussion clearly outlining the rational for their removal.-- Lil_℧niquℇ №1 | talk2me 02:27, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

Two points I am personally in favor of them to the extent that I think they could actually aid in navigation. They seem helpful. I know that I've never used them, but I can imagine someone doing so and it's not a trivial association in my mind. The greater issue, though is that of consensus and removing these from articles. At the very least, please do not remove them until there is a consensus at relevant WikiProjects (e.g. WP:ALBUM) and/or a part of the MoS. Simply reaching a consensus on talk and not amending the germane Misplaced Pages namespace pages will resort in more confusion, reverts, etc. Personally, I have no real horse in this race, but I am going to implore anyone involved to simply wait until the relevant guidelines and projects have been changed before going about changing the main namespace; it will result in chaos. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 05:47, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

As I have experienced and have been told, consensus is not usually determined by discussion alone, but primarily through the actual editing of articles. Per WP:CONSENSUS, "any edit that is not disputed or reverted by another editor can be assumed to have consensus". I have removed the succession boxes from a number of articles, usually referring to this discussion in the edit summary. If the change was reverted, I would discuss it with the individual who reverted it, asking them to comment here. They have either ended up agreeing with the discussion, diagreeing but "consenting", or ignoring my invitation. So for the most part, without policy being written, as there was never policy to include them, consensus has been reached as few of these changes are now being reverted. But I will continue to discuss the issue any time someone else does. --Starcheerspeaksnewslostwars (talk) 07:24, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

I've been invited to join this discussion rather than simply carry out its challenge. Can someone give me an "executive summary", if you will, of the argument for deleting all the succession boxes? Another way of requesting this is to say how would a proposed hypothetical consensus against them be succinctly explained in the MoS? Feel free in lieu of that to link me directly to posts already written above or in the archives if there are two or three that capture the argument for removal. I know how frustrating it can be to have to reiterate ad infinitum, but it's even more frustrating to see wanton degradation and have to read scores of talk page posts to get up to speed on the main points of the argument. Thanks, Abrazame (talk) 04:33, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

Oppose: Concensus has not been reached with such sketchy discussions by a few. If and when concensus is reached, after a much wider appeal being launched for comments, such concensus should be reflected in the style manual in Misplaced Pages in a clear manner. I repeat that there is no need for individual deletions. After concensus, a program can be designed that will automatically delete all such boxes without us individual editors interfering. When you are deleting, you are already seeing stiff opposition, because you are deleting stuff that is very relevant. I will not defend keeping the succession boxes vehemently, but I am asking for a Misplaced Pages policy stated clearly and with no ambiguity before making such deletions. werldwayd (talk) 19:11, 6 October 2010 (UTC) werldwayd (talk) 19:13, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

I have hardly seen stiff opposition to keep them. Except in a few cases, after directing those who have reverted my changes to this discussion page, they have let me remove them, thus implying consensus on those articles. In the ones I have removed, it hasn't been haphazard or random at all. I'm working from a list. And speaking of lists, I have been adding links to the lists of #1 songs for the charts they topped when possible, which provides the same information (and more) that you get from the succession boxes in a less unwieldy manner. --Starcheerspeaksnewslostwars (talk) 00:38, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

Serbian poptoplista.com

I've seen Serbian charts pop up a couple of times lately, most recently at Waka Waka (This Time for Africa). The ref provided there points to this page, in Serbian. Google Translate interprets the tag line for that page (all I've found that hints at all about the site's methodology) as "Weekly top list of foreign singles made on the basis of your votes and number of radio stations broadcasting in Serbia". It seems from this that the listing might be influenced by site visitors' votes, but maybe it's merely a gimmick to get traffic (I gather some voters might win something). Or maybe it means there's some "voting" at the radio stations, maybe just requests to play such-and-such. What do you think? I also don't see any publisher information (there's an e-mail address at the bottom). Personally, I'd add this to our BADCHARTS list, but I'd like to know if I'm being too hasty. — JohnFromPinckney (talk) 00:44, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

I'd go there: clearly people vote for chart positions.—Kww(talk) 03:31, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Oh, man:

"Vote for Hot n Fun on Serbia Top 50 Airplay chart THANK YOU!

just hit glasaj and if u have time reload the page and vote some more"

Ha, I see. "Glasaj" means vote, and it's right above the button that gives the visitor a taste of the music. So even casual passers-by might accidentally click and change the rankings, to say nothing of the fans trying to nudge their fave band up a notch. — JohnFromPinckney (talk) 05:25, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. Should be a WP:BADCHART. Should it not be listed under "Serbia" instead of "Pop Top", as the rest are all listed by their countries first? Yvesnimmo (talk) 05:43, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, done. I hadn't that my addition was out of tune with the system. — JohnFromPinckney (talk) 05:57, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

No problem! I was just trying to look for it in the list after I saw you added it, but couldn't find it under "Serbia", and I thought that would also be the first place people would look logically. :) Yvesnimmo (talk) 05:59, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Portuguese singles chart

Here there is the official Portuguese singles chart compiled by Associação Fonográfica Portuguesa.--Fangul (talk) 18:02, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

That's a ringtone chart, not a singles chart.—Kww(talk) 19:23, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

It's an official digital songs chart.--Fangul (talk) 19:41, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

It's still a ringtone chart, which we don't use. Yves (talk) 19:47, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

The chart ranks the best selling digital tracks in Portugal. Why we don't use it?--Fangul (talk) 20:54, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

First of all, digital charts are infrequently used on Misplaced Pages (only France, and the US, if there is no charting on the Hot 100, and those are the only two, I believe). Secondly, it's not a digital chart; it's a ringtone chart. This can be seen clearly, as the title is "TOP 30 RING TONES SEMANA 39 de 2010". Ringtone charts are not used on Misplaced Pages. Yves (talk) 21:13, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

There are a few other download charts around. The Italian chart we use is a download chart, because physical single sales are extremely rare in Italy. I think there are a few other countries like that. There aren't any ringtone charts that are used, though, and this is a ringtone chart.—Kww(talk) 21:18, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Artistas & Espectáculos uses "TOP RING TONES" this doesn't mean that it's a ringtone chart: you can clearly read "Top Digital AFP", which indicates a download chart.--Fangul (talk) 11:48, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

I think "TOP RING TONES" is pretty self-explanatory: it's a list of the top ringtones. And of course it's a download chart; what other format do ringtones come in, other than download? Yves (talk) 11:51, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

You can also buy them in the NBT (New Mobile Telephone) format. Despite the relatively high cost, it's even more popular than 8-Track ever was! — JohnFromPinckney (talk) 12:45, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Top Digital AFP indicates the official Portuguese digital chart. "Top Ring Tones" indicates the digital chart here.. It ranks the best selling digital tracks and you can find it on the magazines LER and Exame, where it is also listed as the official digital chart.--Fangul (talk) 13:50, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Besides saying "ringtone" right on the chart, it also says "Top Digital AFP com a colaboração da Arena Mobile, Movilisto, Musiwave, Optimus, TIM w.e., TMN e Vodafone". The only providers providing data to the chart are mobile telephone providers.—Kww(talk) 21:48, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

Singapore charts?

I'm looking to include this Singapore chart, the 987FM Top 20, in an article. Trouble is I'm not sure it if can be counted. There are only a few charts in Singapore anyway; I have no idea which is the national music chart, or which can be used for the matter. The 987FM Top 20 is listed as a music chart on this website, but I'm not sure if it can be trusted. Any help with Singapore charts? ANGCHENRUI _WP:MSE♨ 12:35, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

The 987FM Top 20 is a single station airplay chart, so it cannot be used. I don't think there is an acceptable chart for Singapore.—Kww(talk) 14:34, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

So none of the charts used in Singapore can be used here? Not at all? ANGCHENRUI _WP:MSE♨ 04:58, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Unfortunately not the one from 987FM, as it is for a single station. If you can find another one, though, that you think may be used, please mention it! :) Yves (talk) 05:00, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

None that I know of.—Kww(talk) 05:16, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

So all I can do is just state the song's chart performance for that radio station? ANGCHENRUI _WP:MSE♨ 06:37, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

Venezuelan and Ukrainian charts

These to charts have been used in the All The Lovers page. Venezuela, Ukraine Can someone look at them, and see if they are bad charts ? Ahmetyal 14:03, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

Venezuela is OK if used with webarchive or some other service to make the link permanent. The FDR Ukraine chart has been discussed a few times (as in here), but the discussions have never reached a conclusion. I tend to delete it when I see it, but I've never listed it on WP:BADCHARTS. I'd like to hear other opinions and see if we can finally come to a consensus about it.—Kww(talk) 14:01, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

Different charts in different years

The current guidelines on the page are, "Albums and singles which appear on different charts during different years are formatted with the charts for the most recent year furthest down the table:", with an example given of a song charting on the Japanese Airplay Chart in 2007, while on other national charts in 2006. Shouldn't this be changed? According to the Manual of Style's guidelines on accessibility, specifically for data tables, there is a section on "Avoiding column headers in the middle of the table" (whose status is complete), with an example of separating charts like this. I don't think they should be separated, but the column title could have "Charts (2006–07)" instead of the different headings for different years. Thoughts? Also, having the second heading messes up the sorting (try it out!), although that could very easily be fixed with a sort template. Yves (talk) 01:10, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

• STRONG AGREE. There is a lot of the 'year range' being used in articles already and I have noticed the interference with the sort functionality by spliting the years. But I would suggest that the header remain in the singular as "Chart (2006–07)".—Iknow23 (talk) 02:13, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
• Separate tables for the same reason that caused the "further down" guideline to be added, and in keeping with the accessibility/sortability issues you mentioned. I've been meaning to get to this, so you've forced my hand. I hope you find my choice acceptable. Check my work. — JohnFromPinckney (talk) 05:06, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I had noticed it :) It is an improvement to what it was. However, I actually prefer (or is it that I've just grown accustomed to seeing them) the Year span range being used 'out there'. I think it is more 'notable' to the reader to look up their country or other region of interest which can be found in a single (one) table alpha order listing more readily than having to scan through two tables. It is the peak position which is of the utmost importance (the reason for the chart), the year obtained is secondary IMO.—Iknow23 (talk) 05:19, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

Again (IMO) the year range is sufficient. FULL charting trajectory can span different years within the same chart (country or region), mostly if the song or album is released near the end of one year. Some may peak in the year of release, others in the following year. And in some areas it may not be released until that 'following' year, but that can be seen in the 'Release history' section. It is the 'Peak position' that is of interest, if someone really wants to know the EXACT year that it occurred the ref for the peak should be able to provide it. Also I'm sure that some will report the EXACT chart week of the peak in the article text.—Iknow23 (talk) 18:03, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

Why isn't Mexican Airplay Chart in the list of singles chart?

I think Monitor Latino is a reliable source, in the articles of Loca and Cuando Me Enamoro the chart and the peak is there, but altough they are spanish singles, the chart allow all-language songs. --Lxhizy (talk) 04:14, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

Monitor Latino is a reliable source, and if you use webarchive or a similar service it's fine to use. It doesn't appear in WP:GOODCHARTS because it doesn't have an archive. If people link directly to the site, the link goes bad in 7 days.—Kww(talk) 13:55, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

Oh, ok, thank you. --Lxhizy (talk) 21:19, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

Polish Dance Top 50.

In "GOODCHARTS" we can see Polish Airplay Chart, but maybe somebody can add Polish Dance Top 50? I think it is a good chart - it's official, we can see archives of it (http://zpav.pl/rankingi/listy/dyskoteki/index.php?action=getArch) and this is like US Billboard Hot/Dance Club Airplay. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.11.54.173 (talk) 13:57, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

It will take some coding, but it is on my list of charts to add.—Kww(talk) 14:02, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

Ok, thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.23.26.176 (talk) 10:49, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

Danish album chart from 1997

I found this, http://top20.dk/archive/2008 and i think its the official album chart from Denmark. Ahmetyal 17:50, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

Doesn't really look like a legit professional archive... unsure, though. Yves (talk) 17:53, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

http://www.hitlisterne.dk/ has listings back to 2001. Yves (talk) 17:54, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

The charts are the same from 2001 to 2008 in both sites. look:

• IFPI Week 3 2001
• top20.dk Week 2 2001

The top20.dk site have a archive to 1997. Ahmetyal 18:40, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

Mainstream Rock Tracks/Songs

I think the chart is called "Hot Mainstream Rock Tracks", not "Mainstream Rock Songs"! Just a suggestion to fix! The Man Who Needs No Introduction! (talk) 20:45, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

Oh, and one more question, if a song charts on the "Alternative Songs" chart first, and then on "Rock Songs" do both charts go on? The Man Who Needs No Introduction! (talk) 20:47, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

erm I don't know off by heart but check WP:USCHARTS -- Lil_℧niquℇ №1 | talk2me 21:06, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

Romanian and Russian Charts?

Are there websites for archives of these two (Romanian Singles & Russian AirplaY). Can I include them in the singles page? I saw them somewhere and I needed to clarify them before I add. Is there a Template for these two? Novice7 14:52, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

There's no archive of the Romanian chart, but it can be used if you use WebCite or something similar to create a permanent copy. The Russian Airplay chart is on WP:BADCHARTS and cannot be used.—Kww(talk) 15:08, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

And there are no templates for either of these charts. The template documentation at Template:Singlechart should help you see what's currently available for yourself. Thanks for asking in advance, BTW. — JohnFromPinckney (talk) 15:18, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Shall I remove the Romanian charts from charts table as the archive is not available? I know these questions have nothing to do with the heading, but recently a user added US Top 40 Tracks into the table. As it is defunct should it stay? And, what about the previous Canadian Singles chart? I see there is no template. Shall I use the old format? Thanks in Advance! Novice7 15:43, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Unsourced data is unsourced data. If there's a chart listed in a table and the link doesn't support it, you should try to see if you can find a good link. If you can't, remove it. I wind up always removing the Romanian charts. Canadian positions can sometimes be sourced: usually I just replace it with a link to the Canadian Hot 100, which can be easily sourced. If the table has templates, just format your manual entry to match.—Kww(talk) 16:02, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Thanks Kevin! Novice7 16:28, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Succession boxes proposal

After creating an article for "Everybody Wants You" and then seeing its succession box removed, I came across the succession boxes discussion above. Personally, I find the succession boxes helpful as both informational and navigational tools, and I think they provide useful context when browsing articles. But I see others disagree, and a lot of good points have been made about sourcing and accuracy. So I'd like to propose a compromise:

1. Succession boxes should only be added to an article if the information in them is properly sourced, with an inline (in-box) reference.
2. Succession boxes that are already in an article should be left alone, unless they're not sourced, in which case they should be tagged with , and if no one provides the sourcing after a reasonable amount of time, deleted.
3. When more than 3 succession boxes are present, some sort of Collapsing should be used so that they don't overwhelm the page, while still allowing interested readers to view them.
4. If a song or album makes multiple runs at #1 on a chart, only one box for that chart should be used (example).

I know some editors want to get rid of them altogether, and some editors (myself included) think they're beneficial, so it seems to me that allowing them but requiring sourcing and collapsing might be a good way forward. Is this reasonable? Support? Oppose? 28bytes (talk) 23:40, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

• NA-Class Record Charts pages
• NA-importance Record Charts pages
• WikiProject Record Charts articles