Misplaced Pages

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Closed discussions are usually not archived for at least 24 hours. Routine matters might be archived more quickly; complex or controversial matters should remain longer. Sections inactive for 72 hours are archived automatically by Lowercase sigmabot III. Editors unable to edit here are sent to the /Non-autoconfirmed posts subpage. (archives, search)

• Refining the administrator elections process
• Blocks for promotional activity outside of mainspace

Review of unblock request and discussion of possible community ban

See Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents/CCI

This conversation concerns the handling of a prolific editor who has been found to have infringed copyright in multiple articles. Discussion is ongoing about the potential handling of this review, which will involved tens of thousands of articles. Participation in brainstorming solutions or joining in clean-up would be much appreciated. Moonriddengirl

The subpage hasn't been edited in about 2 weeks, so timestamping this thread for archival. –xeno 14:33, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Co-editor apparently banning me from pages

See /Smatprt. A topic ban from the topic of William Shakespeare has been proposed and has considerable support, and a mutual editing restriction on all parties is also under consideration.

Moved to subpage as it's rather big. --TS 22:31, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Datestamp of this comment is faked in an attempt to delay archiving of this pointer. --TS 22:31, 18 October 2010 (UTC)

One of the two editors (I am both the plaintiff and, in the thread, subsequently indicted)for whom a topic ban has been proposed, User:Smatprt, has noted on the page that he is experiencing problems with his computer, and will be travelling until the 18th, and thus cannot respond to the charges or issues raised concerning his editing behaviour. I suggest the page here retain this notice until at least that date.Nishidani (talk) 11:38, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Meat, Libel, four AfDs, and assorted weirdness at David Bruce McMahan

We have a strange situation brewing and I believe that we will need an admin to come in immediately and sort it all out.

Issue One: Blog accusing Misplaced Pages of deleting articles for money

An IP posted a link to this article today at the talk for David Bruce McMahan. I responded that the process was all done legitimately to my knowledge. It was done at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Bruce McMahan (3rd nomination).

Considering that this is an issue of libel against Misplaced Pages, this might need intervention by the office staff. Or we can ignore the blogger, , and move on. More likely option is the first one, with all the chaos that entails.

Issue Two: Meatpuppetry or other Odd Beheavior

Someone with more experiance than I should look at the edit histories of user:SirBruce and the IP 69.140.102.40. SirBruce has not been seen since 9 Feb 2010 and then posted in the talk page warning another user not to remove sources. The other user (Melaen) seems above question and seems to have taken the correct actions, but SirBruce's appearance raises questions. This is compounded by the edit history of the IP which has been absent for over a month before posting the link to the voice and making accusations against Misplaced Pages.

Finally, the article creator Wikidpedia appeared today for the first time since 2007 to create this article. In 2007 he created several other articles that were deleted. The timing of all these users is suspicious. The admin User:Cirt blocked the account for 48 hours for disruptive editing, but I think this is someone's dormant sock, as there is no other explination as to why the account would suddenly come in and create an article like this.

Issue Three: The curious history of Bruce McMahan and David Bruce McMahan

There have been four AfDs for this article. Three without the David, one with it. I upgraded the fourth to a CSD G3 on account of it being deleted before. That being said, the first and second AfDs resulted in Keeps, and the third was a Delete. The sources seemed not to have changed, but the consensus shifted. In full disclosure I voted delete on the newest AfD, but was unaware of the other three except for the notification of the deletion history at the AfD. I wanted to bring this up in light of the posting from the Voice, and because the people that hang out here will know the best course of action in all three incidents.

I will not be participating in the discussion of these issues unless I am asked to do so. Please inform me at my talk page if I am needed. Sven Manguard _Talk 01:58, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

Note

The page in question has just been deleted. Apparently this is not a problem for Admins, so I don't advise restoring it, as it can only cause more problems. All three issues are still valid though. Sven Manguard _Talk 02:12, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

Relevant link to final AFD before speedy: Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/David Bruce McMahan. Falcon8765 02:13, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

ENOUGH ALREADY. See below:

====Comments==== So this guy gets his page deleted because he's not "notable" even though he's had plenty of articles written on him and lawsuits against him. What would make him notable in the eyes of Misplaced Pages? A reference on Family Guy? Does Peter need to go "Bruce McMahan? That's like that one time I slept with Meg!"? Just because the content of the article is poor, doesn't mean the entire page should be deleted. This person is clearly notable based on the wide coverage this has received in addition to his role as CEO of a firm that has received coverage, philanthropy that has received coverage, etc. Most of the criticism leveled is hung up on the negative nature of the original article -- clearly, the article's content was unacceptable. But, that means a stub should be created, sources listed, and appropriate tags citing need for improvement, perhaps even created with protection given the obvious controversy, and so forth. In other words, deleting articles due to controversy is ridiculous. There are hundreds of thousands of articles with far less reliable (and far fewer) sources that we don't go around randomly deleting. We need to be honest with ourselves and admit that we are deleting the article repeatedly due to, 1) the article content being bad (even in poor taste), and 2) controversial. However, neither of this actually justify the actions taken. It means that it's just going to be a huge pain in the ass for an admin to maintain and a writer to create. Strom (talk) 05:14, 9 October 2010 (UTC) I have deleted this wretched and unacceptable article, along with its talkpage. They should not be restored. Newyorkbrad (talk) 02:14, 9 October 2010 (UTC) Agree with this comment by Newyorkbrad (talk · contribs), above. -- Cirt (talk) 02:21, 9 October 2010 (UTC) This is all well and good, and I stand by the delete, but issues one and two are still important. Should issue 1 be taken to the office and issue 2 to the sockbusters? If so, can someone else do it, I'm not sure how to report things to the office staff or how to report possible meats without knowing who the leader is. Sven Manguard Talk 02:27, 9 October 2010 (UTC) I went ahead and salted the article on the reason that some extensive discussion will be necessary before considering recreation. –MuZemike 02:33, 9 October 2010 (UTC) Just a random policy question from a new-ish user. I know salting prevents recreating articles, but do the discussion pages also get salted? If so it didn't get done in either case... Just curious, Sven Manguard Talk 02:42, 9 October 2010 (UTC) Can someone explain this to me? NYB's deletion summary indicates that there are multiple AfDs that have deleted this, but I'm only seeing one (proceeded by 2 keeps where consensus was strongly on the keep side). Further I'm not having problems finding sources on this person. There is all the "odd" stuff like and , but there are also things like , and on his world-record setting car and for his foundation work , . Help? Hobit (talk) 03:00, 9 October 2010 (UTC) 3rd AFD, 2nd AFD, 1st AFD. As far as this last deletion was concerned, after looking at the deleted copy, I do have to agree with NYB. It was entirely negative in tone and would have likely fallen under WP:CSD#G10 as an attack page; it just happened to have been deleted a bunch of times before that. –MuZemike 03:09, 9 October 2010 (UTC) The 2nd and 1st were keeps. So if we do want this recreated we get a userspace version and DrV it? If so, I'd like to request the version deleted by the 3rd AfD be userfied to me. I'll dig back and find what was keepable about 1 and 2 and use that as a starting point. Hobit (talk) 03:21, 9 October 2010 (UTC) I didn't see any of those articles, but I'm guessing that the most recent version was a gross violation of our BLP policies, and as such it shouldn't be userfied either - i.e., it should stay invisible to the public. If the result of the second AFD was "keep", then maybe that one could be userfied - if its content is not potentially libelous. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 03:33, 9 October 2010 (UTC) Fine with me I suppose, but given that it wasn't deleted for being libelous, I assume that the 3rd should be fine too. I'll take either (assuming I get the history). Hobit (talk) 03:35, 9 October 2010 (UTC) This is clearly a page that should exist. David Bruce McMahan aka D. Bruce McMahan aka David B. McMahan has had several feature stories written about him in newspapers and magazines, including cover articles in New Times Broward-Palm Beach and Village Voice. He was the subject of multiple lawsuits and has tried to censor journalists and now Misplaced Pages from reporting on him. He is also a successful businessman and philanthropist who has multiple projects named after him. The content of the article on Misplaced Pages was at one time up to standards, but got gutted. The article should be improved and not deleted. There is more than enough information, including direct source legal papers, to fill an appropriate article on him. The page just needs time to stay up instead of being deleted so it can be improved. http://www.villagevoice.com/2006-09-26/news/daddy-s-girl/ http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/archives/2010/10/memo_to_bruce_m.php http://www.browardpalmbeach.com/Issues/2006-09-28/news/feature.html --66.246.94.130 (talk) 03:27, 9 October 2010 (UTC) I really hate to do this, as the comment I am about to make flies in the face of many of my core policies, but it has to be said: I'm been to South Florida. I've had the distinct misfortune of reading the New Times. It is unreliable, and has such tremendously low journalistic standards that it is on par with trash tabloids. I would never use it as a source in anything. I'd sooner use the National Inquirer. The New Times is NOT a suitable source, ever, period. As for the other sources, anything with blog in the name is genertally viewed with skepticism. A few blogs are editor reviewed and have high standards. The NPR blogs come to mind. Most blogs are not editor reviewed and therefore are not good sources. Also considering this article my view of the voice as reliable isn't that high. You need better sources. If the man is notable, they will exist. Sven Manguard Talk 03:53, 9 October 2010 (UTC) @66.246.94.130: Your edit here is higly inappropriate. Avoid attacking the closing admin, it never helps an argument. Sven Manguard Talk 03:59, 9 October 2010 (UTC) For what it's worth, the Joe Arpaio article cites the Phoenix version of the New Times on multiple occasions, and has for some time despite some controversy on that article's talk page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pugs Malone (talk • contribs) 03:50, 10 October 2010 (UTC) <ec>Two things. #1, as I listed above, there are plenty of other sources, so if the New Times is really that bad, we can cope. The discussion about the New Times can happen at WP:RSN. #2 Sven, do you have any WP:COI issues with McMahan? Given your relatively short history here (though lots of edits in that time) I figured it would be worth asking just to be sure. I assume you are a returning editor going for a WP:CLEANSTART, but the COI think also seems possible. Hobit (talk) 04:01, 9 October 2010 (UTC) Nope, no COI. I have the unfortunate habit of unknowingly stepping into existing conflicts, (see the above ANI that I posted in) but this is more of a "I saw something wrong and went after it" sort of thing. As to my knowledge, I have been editing Misplaced Pages since 2006. I only got an account recently because I spent three months abroad and away from Misplaced Pages, and came back to a new review system, a dramatic increase in semi-protections, and an overall less condusive atmosphere towards IP editing. Before getting the account, I never used automated tools or participated in ANI or AFD, although I did launch one SOCK investigation from my iPhone. Hence my large general knowledge and low specific knowledge. Also I seem to bite off more than I can chew and have terrible spelling, but again, no COI. If you want to give me guideance on anything, please feel free to do so. Sven Manguard Talk 04:35, 9 October 2010 (UTC) The "blogger who appears to be a hack" that Sven speaks of in his "Issue 1" above is Tony Ortega, Editor in Chief of The Village Voice, as it says at the end of the Ortega/VV blog that Sven linked to. Sven, since you referred to Ortega as a "hack", he appears to have now returned the favor by referring to you in an update to his column as a "minion" (see immediately preceding link, "Update" section). I'd very respectfully suggest that it might help keep drama to a minimum, now that you've made your opinion known, if you were to follow through on the intention you stated when you initiated this thread, and perhaps not continue to participate in this discussion. You're free to do as you think best, of course, and perhaps it'll be necessary for you to comment further, at least briefly. But it would be unfortunate if you (or any individual editor here) were to in any way "become the story". This thread shouldn't be about your opinion of Ortega, or his opinion of you: It needs to remain focused on whether we are to have a McMahan article on Misplaced Pages.  – OhioStandard (talk) 18:59, 9 October 2010 (UTC) Just a quick note: Tony Ortega did not claim, nor imply, that Misplaced Pages deleted the article "for money". If he did say or imply that, please do let me know, because that's absolutely false and libelous. But I think what he said was also false, and it is worth me saying so plainly. His claim appears to be that McMahan's money allowed him to intimidate Misplaced Pages into deleting the article through legal threats. That's absolutely false. There is no prohibition on creating the article from either the Foundation or me. Whether or not there should be an article about this topic is entirely up to the community in accordance with the usual procedures. I don't recommend having a brawl about it, and of course Newyorkbrad's wise comments should be very thoughtfully considered. For me personally, a big test for this article, and a challenge perhaps difficult to meet, is WP:BLP1E. Beyond that, the article would need to be thoughtful and respectful of human dignity and would have to work really hard to draw conservative conclusions rather than following a single source as if it is the gospel truth.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 19:23, 9 October 2010 (UTC) I thought it would be appropriate to quote what Ortega is saying about Misplaced Pages, since I'm not clear that everyone in the discussion is actually reading his blog post (and just to point out - yes it's a blog post, but also the bloogier who wrote it signs his blog posts "Tony Ortega is the editor-in-chief of The Village Voice" - for those not aware of the Voice, it is considered a "reliable source," and not just in the wikipedia context. From the blog post Memo UPDATE: Misplaced Pages's reason for not wanting a McMahan page? According to one of their minions, I'm a "hack." The last time, while they were under constant attack by McMahan's lawyers, they pulled down references to our articles because, they said, The Village Voice was not a legitimate source of information for biographies of living people. Say what? I tracked down the Misplaced Pages minion who had written that, who turned out to be an electrical engineer in England. He sent me some long explanations about the nature of journalism and what information is reliable. But eventually, I got him to admit that Misplaced Pages was wiping the McMahan page simply through fear. They were afraid of being sued by McMahan, but it was easier to say that the Voice wasn't a legitimate source. You can imagine that my respect for Misplaced Pages took a nosedive at that point. This time, we get a Misplaced Pages minion saying that McMahan isn't "notable" and that I'm a hack. You can almost smell the fear, can't you? Not notable? Well, OK, Misplaced Pages, how's this for notable. It turns out that moneybags McMahan put on a show earlier this year with his new $3 million race car, and unveiled it with the help of 2010's Playmate of the year, Hope Dworacyk. Notable enough for you? I don't know. Hedge fund kabillionaire, noted "philanthropist," race car dreamer, Westchester County bigwig, and...oh, he married his own daughter in Westminster Abbey. Is that really not notable enough? UPDATE 2: And now it's down. Well, we learn once again that Misplaced Pages is afraid of McMahan (which is fine, we don't expect others to take on these kinds of stories), but that they will continue to slime the Voice as their reason for taking down information about him. For the benefit of Misplaced Pages editors, who still may not understand this situation, the Voice is doing things the old-fashioned way here. We are reporting what court documents revealed about a relationship between a very notable super-rich old guy who abused his grown daughter for years. Those facts are contained in court documents which are available here and elsewhere. Normally, that is the bedrock of what Misplaced Pages considers legitimate sourcing. In this case, however, McMahan's money talks. (emphasis added) I'm sticking my nose in because I find this particular incident fascinating on many levels. The collision between journalism & wikipedia, and the awful, awful story that this whole discussion is about. You guys should really get a handle on your "minions" =) illovich (talk) 02:44, 10 October 2010 (UTC) James F. Broderick, Darren W. Miller . Consider the Source: A Critical Guide to 100 Prominent News and Information'. Information Today, 2007 ' http://books.google.com/books?id=L0nOaMe91w4C&pg=PA381#v=onepage&q&f=false And yet, the identity of this "minion", their source of said "minion's" information, the reason their word (if it was ever actually given) should be believed, or why it's impossible any of the other provided reasons would not justify any particular course of action, remain mysteries. I was tempted to just slap a bunch of {{fact}} tags in the above, but re-factoring someone else's comments is a faux pas. Between several plausible and supported motives versus unsubstantiated hearsay, I think it's fairly obvious what further discussion should be predicated on. - Vianello (Talk) 22:46, 12 October 2010 (UTC) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knO5Ad7cD0M is this an appropriate source? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.64.201.102 (talk) 07:05, 10 October 2010 (UTC) National Cristina Foundation As long as this is being discussed, someone should have a look at this edit. I reverted, but perhaps the IP who made it should be dealt with and a revdelete imposed. Also, please examine the link to the Village Voice story recently inserted. Admins should watchlist. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 17:17, 9 October 2010 (UTC) I've revision deleted that edit, and a similar edit to the talkpage. I gave the IP a final warning, as the edits were from several hours ago. They have, however, already had one block for a similar (deleted) edit. If someone else feels a block here is warranted they'll get no objection from me. I haven't looked at the Village Voice link yet. TFOWR 17:27, 9 October 2010 (UTC) Please take a look at the talk page history. The libelous edit summary is still live. IMO the talk page should be deleted entirely. Also please look at the link to the Voice story in the article. Perhaps that should be revdeleted, too. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 17:33, 9 October 2010 (UTC) Edit summaries have been deleted as well, now - thanks for catching that. I'm still catching up with the Village Voice link/ref. TFOWR 17:37, 9 October 2010 (UTC) It's a link to the same Voice story mentioned in the first post of this thread containing the accusations against McMahan. It's not relevant to the Cristina Foundation. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 17:41, 9 October 2010 (UTC) Agreed, and I've revrted it and semi-protected the article. I have not revision-deleted the Village Voice ref, however. (I may yet, and have no objection to anyone else doing so). TFOWR 17:44, 9 October 2010 (UTC) Further to this issue, some time after TWOFRs post an IP posted a link on the articles Talk Page to a YouTube video alledgedly about "Bruce McMahaon's dark past". I have deleted the link and related comments - 220.101 talk 19:43, 9 October 2010 (UTC) External publicity This whole sorry mess is now being posted about on Reddit, which has an unfortunate habit of publicizing "interesting" Misplaced Pages vandalism - see discussion here and be sure to view the image linked at the top of the discussion page, which is visible to anyone who sees the link on Reddit's front page. When we spend our time dickering about what we should do instead of just nuking the offensive material, this is how the world sees us. That's apart from the harm being done to a living person (again, see image linked in the discussion there), which is horrendous and irreversible. This whole lengthy discussion did nothing to prevent either issue - whereas immediately deleting the BLP-violating material and reconsidering it afterward would have prevented it. One ounce of action beats any amount of debate, every time. — Gavia immer (talk) 02:56, 10 October 2010 (UTC) The original Reddit link to the Village Voice article, from yesterday: http://www.reddit.com/r/WTF/comments/dooud/rich_guy_has_an_affair_with_daughter_gets_called/ - as you can see, they're pretty miffed about this guy's behaviour. This is what a person who claims to be the original editor of the Bruce McMahan article says about it: Thank you for linking to Tony's article. I'm glad to see this scumbag's past dredged up again. I can offer some possibly interesting perspective on this incident. I was the Misplaced Pages editor who first created the Bruce McMahan page several years ago. I used the original Broward/Palm Beach New Times articles as my main source and was even nice enough to not call him out on his mail-order PhD. Once the article entered Google and became a first-page hit for "Bruce McMahan", Bruce's hired gun from the law firm of Liner Grode Stein Yankelevitz Sunshine Regenstreif & Taylor LLP (www.linerlaw.com) emailed me proposing changes to the article. What a fuck up! The idiot didn't even know he could edit the article himself. I ignored him. Bruce's PR firm wised up, and vandals began blanking the page. I kept restoring it, and we went back and forth. His PR firm soon figured out that they could actually re-write the pages instead of vandalize them. A resume was posted over the article. When I and several editors pushed back, several new but deeply concerned editors began inserting outright lies then tried to weaken the language of the daughter-fucking incident and bury it under mounds of glowing hagiography. They accused me and a handful of editors as being members of a conspiracy to destroy Bruce. One of his daughters even jumped in with a ridiculously long apologia in the discussion page. The volume of edits and sock puppets knocked the fight out of me, but a handful of other editors kept up and actually expanded the article to cover far more of the daughter-fucking incident than my original stub. Eventually, Bruce contacted Jimbo Wales, who directly intervened and had an admin settle the debate in favor of scrubbing ALL references to Bruce's daughter fucking from the article. For the next couple of years, the article became a paean to Bruce's charity work with the National Cristina Foundation and other bullshit. Bruce won. It stood this way for a long time until someone noticed that there was a random fluff piece floating around Misplaced Pages and proposed to delete it. Fuck it, I decided, and I voted to kill it. Reddit, I implore you: vote this link up. Get it to the front page. Make Bruce McMahan and other rich people realize that when they try to suppress information with the tools of coercion and deception, free-speech-loving individuals will turn around and blow it up to the stratosphere. So, yes, thanks for caving to the guy with the money, Misplaced Pages. 94.193.244.17 (talk) 12:30, 10 October 2010 (UTC) When do I get my money, and how much will I get? TFOWR 12:39, 10 October 2010 (UTC) Again, to be clear, I have nothing to do with this. Bruce did not contact me, I did not intervene. There is no prohibition by me or the Foundation on creating an article on this topic, and never has been.. Years ago, Brad Patrick had conversation with some people about this; he may be able to explain more if he is interested. But he did not, to my knowledge, intervene back then. As always, I am a strong proponent of WP:BLP and WP:RS - those policies are clearly relevant here.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:49, 11 October 2010 (UTC) As for what Tony Ortega thinks of us: . HalfShadow 22:20, 11 October 2010 (UTC) Insufferably long comment I believe I've now discovered and examined all or nearly all the articles and web sources that are at all relevant: I've probably sifted through and read well over 200 pages, including court documents. I do not choose to provide my opinion of the facts presented in the media; other editors can examine the available evidence for themselves. I will say, however, that I don't think it's a worthwhile or justifiable exercise to attempt to shoot the media messengers in this instance. Nor do I think it's useful (or appropriate) for any of us to try to stand in moral judgment, based on our interpretation of the facts we have available. If anyone here finds he can't refrain from doing so, can't think of or discuss this issue without moral indignation coloring his thinking, this article and related ones available on the web may be of considerable use. The suggestion is not to be construed as indicating any opinion about the facts that have been presented on either side in this matter. A procedural note is probably in order. While the article was in its most recent (4th) AfD, a user tagged it under CSD G4, and it was, in fact, deleted as a "speedy". While that tagging was no doubt made in all good faith, the article probably didn't meet G4 since the just-deleted article has been described as being very negative, while the previously deleted version (AfD three) was anything but: it was described as having been "whitewashed", and as a vanity piece. CSD G4 specifically "excludes pages that are not substantially identical to the deleted version". Some of the "external publicity" about this has already been mentioned and even quoted. There's a very great deal of it, and it appears this thread is being followed pretty closely in some corners of the web. ( A good reason for choosing one's words deliberately here, I think. ) As might be expected, some people are hoping for and trying to promote a "Streisand effect", and others believe just as strongly that the allegations should never have been published at all. There has been some suggestion of a conflict of interest re one editor along with a corresponding reference to a previously disclosed real-life identity ( I do not say "credible" suggestion, note ) and there's a different, previously-involved editor who has expressed great indignation off-site at what he sees as the improper suppression of this article. That editor has made accusations that target that indignation back to Misplaced Pages; and it's my opinion that it wouldn't be very extraordinarily improper ask him whether he might have some potential conflict of interest, given certain individual factors. I mention this not because I think it needs to be investigated (I don't) but because I think it's appropriate that editors should be forewarned of it. Each side in this conflict is sure it holds the moral high ground, each side just knows it's on the side of the angels. As I see the question, there are two distinct ways we can decide whether to have an article about this. We can base a decision on rules, or we can base a decision on values. If we're to base our decision on rules then I think Jimmy is exactly right that it comes down to BLP1E. That question resolves to (a) whether McMahan is also notable in our very-specific and admittedly idiosyncratic sense of the word on Misplaced Pages for his race-car development, his success as a hedge-fund manager, his wealth, or his philanthropy, OR (b) whether the coverage about the father-daughter controversy has been broad-enough and persistent-enough in reliable sources to call for inclusion in Misplaced Pages. If either condition (a) or (b) is met then our rules dictate that a carefully-written, non-sensational article that includes the topic currently at issue here should not be deleted. In the course of looking into the question, I saw a great many mentions re "condition (a)" about McMahan. That's it exactly: there were a great many mentions re that condition. The NY Times mentioned the sale of a $30 million condo (furnishings and artwork included), Playboy mentioned his race car development, some trade publications mention his work as a hedge-fund manager, there were a few mentions of his philanthropy, and one or two of his great wealth. I saw nothing in-depth about these topics, however, no "feature" articles about McMahan in any of these contexts or roles. It's possible I missed something, of course, but I tried carefully to be thorough. It's a borderline case, a judgment call, and I'm not going to argue the point with anyone, but it's my view that McMahan's notability apart from the one big issue that's current is probably not sufficient to warrant an article. So what about "condition (b)", then? Well, there's a great deal of material, multiple articles, from Village Voice, and the follow-up official blogs. ( The New Times in other locations is also Village Voice Media, btw, as I understand it. ) And there are two articles in the New York Post that I know of: one essentially follows after the Village Voice and one introduces denials and counter-accusations against the long-lost daughter, made by a different daughter and (same) half-sister. A lot of editors will disapprove of the Village Voice and the New York Post, of course, because their respective editorial outlooks don't suit. I have nothing to say about that, but it's my opinion that they're both reliable sources, have sufficient editorial oversight, etc. There will be editors here who disagree with that, of course, but I think any such debate would be moot. A case could be made that it's due to McMahan's success in getting civil lawsuits sealed in multiple jurisdictions, perhaps quite a strong case, too, but for whatever reason I was unable to discover any other reliable sources that touched this story. The Village Voice directly addresses the issue, of course, this apparent lack of extensive coverage elsewhere, but the fact remains. Oh, there was a new story today in English at thaindian.com, too. That's all I'm aware of: It's my overall opinion that our condition (b) probably isn't met, either. What, then, if we base our decision on values? Before I really looked at this in-depth, I was sure that the "values" decision had to come down in favor of having an article: I completely understood the great indignation that the Editor of the Village Voice has expressed. I'm fairly sure I still do understand that, actually. I would almost certainly feel the way he does, were I in his shoes. But I can't work myself into the same state of indignation after looking at this as closely as I now have. There's no moral high ground here, in my view; the angels aren't on anyone's side. They're probably all just quietly weeping somewhere. Whatever you believe about the facts presented, whether you believe in guilt or innocence or some combination of the two for the accused or accusers, what we have here are terrible, devastating personal consequences, a real tragedy. If we're going to base our decision about this on values, then it seems morally right to me to leave the personally involved to suffer through the grief of this as best they can without all of us here shining a spotlight their way. I realize that others may disagree in perfect good faith, of course, but that's my view of this matter. Best,  – OhioStandard (talk) 14:51, 10 October 2010 (UTC) This strikes me as an exceptionally thoughtful, well-reasoned, and empathetic comment. Regards, ClovisPt (talk) 18:09, 10 October 2010 (UTC) Indeed. Amazing. Makes me proud to be a Wikipedian.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 23:45, 10 October 2010 (UTC) Fully supporting Ohiostandard, after spending an hour or so familiarizing myself with the previous article versions and some of the online articles. And i'm an inclusionist. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 00:31, 11 October 2010 (UTC) Ohiostandard makes a good case that the article falls into a "grey zone" of notability, between articles that pretty unambiguously need deleting and those that pretty unambiguously need keeping. Within this grey zone we have a collective choice, and Ohiostandard raises the issue of "values". I'd suggest that there are two concrete things to inform the choice: i) WP:NOTNEWS (the fewer sources there are on a BLP subject, the more a Misplaced Pages article takes on the qualities of a news source rather than an encyclopedia - especially in view of Misplaced Pages's typically high Google ranking) ii) the notion of the "Public interest". Within the grey zone, we're balancing a subject's desire for privacy with the public's right to know. The moral strength of the latter depends on the interest involving more than prurience; for example, it's more reasonable to say that it's in the public interest to have corruption in public office reported than, say, adultery. Bottom line, McMahan falls into the grey zone, and on both considerations I've suggested, I think the choice should be not to have an article. Rd232 08:01, 11 October 2010 (UTC) Other article venues where this has spilled to The Village Voice Streisand effect Just an FYI. OhNoitsJamie 17:33, 11 October 2010 (UTC) OK, I haven't really edited many articles, in fact I finally just created an account because of this incident. Doesn't the fact that there is such a fervent discussion over McMahan's inclusion/exclusion point out that he has enough notoriety to warrant inclusion here? Is it simply because there are no major articles giving a complete biography in several publications that means he shouldn't be included? As soon as you willingly step into the public light, i.e. a public unveiling of a car with the help of a playmate (which absolutely is an attempt for attention for his product), you lose your right to anonymity. Certainly, the article should be balanced, giving all available information. But deleting an article of a notable public figure because they're not famous enough ignores all of the other articles on Misplaced Pages that certainly have garnered much less attention. I'm not implying that anything untoward happened, but given the allegations, simple deletion smacks of impropriety. BTW, if I've made any faux-pas's regarding my post here, let me know, still trying to figure this all out. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sheriffjt (talk • contribs) 20:37, 11 October 2010 (UTC) That's a touchy subject. One group of Wikipedians are against keeping articles from deletion just because their notability is Misplaced Pages-related, & they often win the discussions. (I don't always think their opinion on the matter is correct, but that's besides the point.) In this case, I would believe you have a point here if this squabble over an article about this guy makes it to the news beyond The Village Voice or the New York Times -- for example, it gets picked up by one of the major media networks in the US or in Europe. Or the incident gets picked apart in the next book on Misplaced Pages. Until then, while I weakly agree with you on this there just isn't enough evidence for notability; or to put it another way, if I'm going to spend time writing an article on a living person, I'd rather work on one of the major government officials of Ethiopia -- we don't have an article on their Minister of Agriculture, for example. In the long run, an article on the Ethiopian Minister of Agriculture will help more people than on this guy. -- llywrch (talk) 23:22, 11 October 2010 (UTC) Possible DRV I know this is going to be wildly unpopular, but our primary concern here should be adherence to our own policies, primarily, WP:BLP, WP:V, and WP:N. Deleting one-sided attack articles is certainly beneficial and desirable, but if a subject satisfies the WP:BIO section of the notability policy, and the article is built from verifiable facts, does not violate BLP, UNDUE or NPOV, then I think we should have it. We should never prevent creation of an article that satisfies the requirements of these policies just because the subject is controversial. I hope this will be taken to DRV and thoroughly discussed after all these meat/sock issues are resolved. - Burpelson AFB ✈ 13:49, 12 October 2010 (UTC) Bigger than one article A cursory search led me to find mention of McMahan in Genetic sexual attraction and Streisand effect (I removed it from the latter), but I have a feeling some POV pushers may have, upon deletion of the BLP article, peppered mentions of McMahan throughout WP. I am far from an expert on BLP policies, but if McMahan is not notable for his own article, then I doubt that using his alleged "controversial relationship" as an example in other articles is appropriate; possible vandalism. Anyway, just wanted to bring this to an Admin's attention The Eskimo (talk) 17:53, 12 October 2010 (UTC) And just an aside, I was simply casually browsing the ANI thread, and am now fully aware of the controversial information about this non notable individual without actively "looking" for it. I for one hate when I follow a discussion only to find the gossipy stuff courtesy blanked or whatever (just out of sheer curiosity), but I understand why that is the case, and if this information is potentially libelous, well, I'm just saying... The Eskimo (talk) 18:02, 12 October 2010 (UTC) In all fairness, though, this information is not libelous as he has already settled all court cases (at least according to the Village Voice). If in fact it is still available through the CT courts, the information in the article should be verifiable. Also, I understand the need for multiple sources, but ignoring a source because of a purported yet unproven bias is another. The Village Voice and The New York Times are both legitimate sources, whether or not one agrees with what they say is a different matter entirely. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sheriffjt (talk • contribs) 05:54, 13 October 2010 (UTC) I think what needs to happen is that a BLP article should be written based solely on the notability of his business ventures, ignoring the controversial content for now. If the article stands up on its own (and doesn't get deleted as non-notable), then a discussion should be started on the talk page about whether or not to include the controversial material. At that point, certain important issues can be discussed, such as policies regarding biographies of living persons, how much focus, if any, should be giving to the controversy, and whether or not the Village Voice is a good source for the article. Let consensus work it out before including any controversy, because, in the future, you're going to need to link to those discussion to defend any deletion attempts that will surely pop up if the thing about his daughter ever makes into the article. A slow and non-controversial re-start would be the way to go if someone want to try another stab at this. The Eskimo (talk) 16:03, 13 October 2010 (UTC) this last suggestion seems a sensible way of resolving this in an orderly manner. DGG ( talk ) 02:45, 14 October 2010 (UTC) I think what is going on here is a perfect and chilling example of the Streisand Effect. Or maybe not, because in this case, huge resources are thrown at removing material, and the resources appear to be winning. Maybe it should be re-inserted under that aspect. As far as Genetic sexual attraction goes, McMahan was removed from that also. A 20 word mention, followed by three sources was removed as "not sourced that his meets subjec of article." Can we demand a least literacy when articles are being censored? Where is the outrage? In Mia Farrow, the following sentence stands unopposed: "Farrow and Allen parted after Farrow discovered a sexual relationship between Allen and her adopted daughter Soon-Yi. During the subsequent custody battle involving Farrow's and Allen's three children, Farrow filed charges that Allen had molested their daughter Dylan, then seven years old." The assertion is completely unsourced, no-one bats an eye. BsBsBs (talk) 06:58, 14 October 2010 (UTC) Well, the difference there is that the Mia Farrow article has facts about Mia Farrow, albeit unsourced. The genetic sexual attraction article should only include material relevant to the genetic sexual attraction phenomenon. In this case, it is a well-sourced fact that David Bruce McMahan had a sexual relationship with his genetic daughter, but there's no evidence or source that genetic sexual attraction was a factor in their relationship. Hence it's out-of-place in that article. 192.18.1.36 (talk) 12:44, 14 October 2010 (UTC) Oh give me a break. So someone has sex with his daughter and I have to prove that "genetic sexual attraction is a factor?" BsBsBs (talk) 19:30, 14 October 2010 (UTC) Completely unsourced? A source can be added for a few sentences at a time. Source 22 in the article sources the statements you are quoting, with things like "Dr. Leventhal headed the hospital team that was asked by the Connecticut State Police to investigate the claim that Mr. Allen molested Dylan last August at Miss Farrow's summer home in Connecticut.","Mr. Allen's lawsuit to gain custody of Dylan and the couple's two other children" and "The doctor suggested a connection between Miss Farrow's outrage over Mr. Allen's affair with her adopted daughter, Soon-Yi Farrow Previn,". It could probably be sourced a lttile bit clearer, but it is all there. Fram (talk) 12:57, 14 October 2010 (UTC) What Have I Started? Hello there, minion here. I just got a message on my talk page reminding me that this was here. Honestly once I saw a few of the more reliable users and an admin had gotten involved, I stopped checking in. If you look at the origional posting, WAY up top, you will see that before any of this media coverage spilled out, I was concerned about three issues. Media issues not withstanding, I thing that these issues have run their course in discussions, and move to end this mess. Point 1: See below on my opinion on the Voice. Point 2: I don't see any recent activity. We can bring this up again if it becomes a problem again. Point 3: If an editor in good standing wants to create a well balanced and properly sourced article on this man, then I would have no objections. In the meantime, I see these pages being salted as a good thing. Now it would appear that in my absence, the editor of the Voice has decided to drop a few levels on the pyramid. We are now in the orange and red areas. This begs the question. If the Village Voice is making statements that Jimbo Wales is calling false, is resorting to personal attacks, and is a blogger without editorial review, why do we consider him a good source? I think it's time we reexamine the Village Voice as a reliable source to be used in articles. I know that I'm not exactly uninvolved, but I think it bears being mentioned. Sorry if this causes more drama than it should, but at this point, I view the Village Voice as an anti-Misplaced Pages crusade, rather than a constructive source of journalism. Sven Manguard Talk 16:23, 14 October 2010 (UTC) I think I know what you mean when you say "is making statements that Jimbo Wales is calling false" – you are evidently talking about claims made without evidence, and whose truth Jimbo Wales is in a good position to judge (i.e. accusations of undue influence on Misplaced Pages). But it's not necessarily coming across that way. Hans Adler 17:27, 14 October 2010 (UTC) Direct quote from Jimbo from above in this ANI: But I think what he said was also false, and it is worth me saying so plainly. His claim appears to be that McMahan's money allowed him to intimidate Misplaced Pages into deleting the article through legal threats. That's absolutely false. There is no prohibition on creating the article from either the Foundation or me. Whether or not there should be an article about this topic is entirely up to the community in accordance with the usual procedures. That is what I was referring to. Sven Manguard Talk 22:54, 14 October 2010 (UTC) A PR Disaster This is becoming a PR disaster, and it will hurt Misplaced Pages in a big way, if it not already does. Jimbo shot himself in the foot by becoming involved. If an article is truly killed due to mere non-notability, a Jimbo Wales doesn’t have to show up. Him showing up proves that there is much more to it. I have worked for more than 30 years in advertising and PR for large corporations. My specialty: Disaster management. First order of business: Take the CEO out of the picture and coat him with as much Teflon as available. I know how to astroturf without getting caught. I ran “enthusiast” websites with a well hidden agenda. Not notable? Mr. Mahan himself would beg to differ. There is his site for his version of his biography. . There is mcmahan-philanthropy.com.. There is McMahan’s own car website with a pitbabe to boot. And those are just the first three on Google (which shows that high level of expensive SOE is at work.) If the man is not notable enough, then 75% of Misplaced Pages should be thrown out. A philanthropist that helps children who lost their legs to landmines and who marries is own daughter is highly notable, if you ask me. This scandal doesn’t pass the vaunted WP:Duck test at least not with me. I am mentioned eight times by name in Misplaced Pages. I’m not notable at all. Does anybody patrol the pages and scrubs them, because I am a nobody? You need to be a McMahan to be extended that courtesy. At Misplaced Pages, five editors and a few well chosen sock puppets (with a VPN, and one PC each – we know how fingerprints work) literally can change history. With a largish PR firm and a lawfirm, one can literally throw hundreds of well informed and well behaved editors at an issue – without getting caught. And I have no doubt that this is what is happening here. Can I prove it? No. But I can tell you how it’s done without even a twitch of the needle of a checkuser tool. What if McMahan would hire me? I would take the job. I hawked cigarettes, and I don’t smoke. I would have advised him to NOT do what is done here. DON’T suppress. It will bite you big time, as Streisand effect shows. It did’t work before the Internet either. Say “Yes, I did it, I’m sorry.” Contrition works miracles, especially in the U.S.A. “Look, we all made mistakes.” Is anybody hounding Woody Allan or Roman Polanski? Own up to it, and push your good side. Surround yourself with kids with one leg. Who can hate you? The world will forget quickly that you buggered your daughter if you don’t remind the world every waking day. Misplaced Pages would gain a lot if it would defend this article against interference. Let’s face it: Hedge fund owners are not high on the respectability scale anymore. Incest? No very popular. Heavy handed suppression of news? Not liked in this country. Misplaced Pages could look like a white knight that defends the virtues of democracy and free speech. Misplaced Pages defending its editors against a heavy handed, well armed posse would give the MSM the desperately needed opening to write about McMahan without receiving a fax “followed by registered mail.” Instead, Misplaced Pages shoots itself in the foot. Sad, very sad. BsBsBs (talk) 19:45, 14 October 2010 (UTC) I'm not sure what you're getting at with all of the above. The VV editor made statements that indicated WP was paid off to ignore information regarding this person. An editor brought this to Jimbo's attention, and he replied with a short, but strongly worded statement denying it. Jimbo's statement was completely in keeping with his character. He often comments on controversial issues when asked. Had he not spoken out, anyone could have claimed that "Jimbo's silence on the issue is deafening." I am not sure why you seem to think this is a PR nightmare...McMahan is not really that well known (it's still to be determined if he even warrants and article). Whatever controversy exists has not been widely covered from what I can tell. Regardless, WP does not report the news, nor is it a gossip column, nor is it a place to give Mr. McMahan advice on how to handle his public/personal affairs The Eskimo (talk) 21:06, 14 October 2010 (UTC) When the New York Times pays attention, then is a disaster, right now it is a couple of editors against a blogger. I for one have no idea who these people are, and I really don't give a s***. I brought this up because an editor at the VV was making potential libelous statements about Misplaced Pages, and because there already was meatpuppetry and confusion involved. I don't care if the man gets a page or not. If it meets the requirements for a page (without using Village Voice as a source) then it should have the page. I got involved because of the libel. I stayed because some blowhard with an agenda decided to turn a procedural delete into a conspiracy. Because people paid attention to this blowhard, it became what it is. We should have ignored him and moved on. It should have been done when with when I left the first time. An attack article was deleted, a puppet was blocked, and the admins were made aware of the potential libel. Instead, this head editor published a bunch of garbage without bothering to understand how Misplaced Pages works, and as a result, we're still here. MOTION Anyone who is not an admin or staff should stop posting here and ignore this mess. Let the pros sort it out. We're only feeding this fire and making things worse. Sven Manguard Talk 22:43, 14 October 2010 (UTC) A Proposition Strike all that above. I am not sure I understand your post well enough, and re-reading my reply I think I may have assumed bad faith. My apologies if so. I have a bit of a sinking feeling about this whole thread, going all the way back to the most recent AFD discussion. I want to assume good faith, but I can't help but wonder if this whole thread is being perpetuated by interested parties in order to keep McMahan's name "out there." Therefore I am going to make a bold proposition, which I suspect may be met with skepticism that I am somehow in cahoots with one or the other involved parties. And if this is a horrible idea, please feel free to say so. I am not an admin, but I wonder what others think about possibly courtesy blanking, revdeleting, or whatever the proper procedue for blanking this discussion would be due to the follwoing reasons.: We have a very long and detailed discussion that: 1. Involves a living person, who no longer even has an article on WP due to notability and other reasons. 2. Is peppered with potentially libelous allegations from the sources in question sources that he had a sexual relationship with his daughter. 3. Contains statements that, though I would not consider to be legal threats exactly, are insinuations that WP is setting itself up for legal ramifications based on its action/inaction in regards to this subject (depending on who you are talking to at the time. Is it even possible (or withing precedence) that this thread be blanked? Perhaps some sort of message box that reads something like "This discussion has been courtesy blanked due to containing controversial information about a living person who does not have a WP article. In the case that an article is one day created that passes notability guidelines, this discussion can be reactivated following admin review." Anyway, I would support this and will step away to leave it to others to discuss, as I am feeling a bit icky about the whole thing. The Eskimo (talk) 21:23, 14 October 2010 (UTC) (sorry about the typos- it was a long post and I wanted to pound it in before an edit conflict occurred. The Eskimo (talk) 21:25, 14 October 2010 (UTC) I just read this thread, and I'm trying to figure out what the hell is going on. Indeed, this whole thread is full of libelisms (including from respected editors). So the guy married or was accused of having sex with his daughter and wants to hide it? For some reason, someone is intent on it being out in the open? Why is it so important to everyone? What the living heck is going on here? Long time admins posting long creeds, a new user claiming to have been here for forever (always suspicious). Why is this so damned important? Half of this feels incredibly astroturfed to me. Would someone clear the damned thing up? I have the same sinking feeling, Eskimo, like all of a sudden realizing half the things I read in the world have been changed thanks to someone's thought police (thanks Bsbsbs).Magog the Ogre (talk) 23:23, 14 October 2010 (UTC) Okay, here's what happened: I brought several problems with an article (see my original post in the top section,) to the ANI, and the article was subsequently deleted. Note that this is the second deletion. One of those problems was an allegation by an editor at the Village Voice, who implied that the article was deleted the first time because the subject bullied Misplaced Pages. As far as I know, this is a complete fabrication by the editor. The real reason it was deleted the first time is because it was whitewashed and in terrible shape. When it was deleted for a second time, (this time because the recreation was a blatant attack on the subject,) the same editor called me a minion. Jimbo Wales got involved. (This is a statement of fact, I don't think it is a bad thing or a good thing, just something that happened.) Reddit caught wind. Because of point numbers 2 and 3, and aggravated by points 4 and 5, we have spent a large amount of time and effort talking about this topic. Little of it has anything to do with the original posting reasons, it is mainly focused on whether or not this person should have an article. Other than the allegations of libel, which is still an issue, my origional points have been addressed. The socks were blocked and are now inactive, and the article is gone. Also, this is ANI, so plenty of drama that may or may not be constructive. Hope this helps Sven Manguard Talk 00:20, 15 October 2010 (UTC) This guy really isn't encyclopedic I just did some basic research with an eye towards creating a decent article about the guy but didn't find anything that made him notable enough for his own article. In short, he is: a hotshot accountant and a self-proclaimed philanthropist with a taste for pretty girls and fast cars and the money to indulge himself in both. Married twice. Divorced once. Current wife is young enough to be his child. Rumor has it that she is, but that's rumor off of the gossip sites not facts from a reputable news source. He may be a local celebrity but he hasn't done anything notable enough to merit an encyclopedia article.--*Kat* (talk) 05:56, 15 October 2010 (UTC) Enough This thread began with three issues raised, of which only the first has been addressed. It's becoming a messy DRV-lite. If anyone has anything to say about issues 2 and 3 (at very top of thread), fine - otherwise, let's drop this. A DRV can be opened if necessary for further discussion of whether there should be an article. Rd232 08:28, 15 October 2010 (UTC) Not encyclopedic? You’ve got to be kidding me. He’s not “encyclopedic?” Well, he’s definitely encyclopedic in the second sense of the word. The better word would probably be “not notable.” I give him the benefit of the doubt and call him as notable as the other 12 McMahans (there is a disambig page for Jeff McMahan on Misplaced Pages.) “David Bruce McMahan” (in quotes…) produces 342,000 hits on Google. The Securites and Exchange Commission finds him highly notable. Bruce McMahan has 67 EDGAR entries to his name. (I’m jealous, I have none.) You need to be a higher achiever than just an American born big band musician who played with the Lawrence Welk orchestra to get on EDGAR 67 times. If he’s not “encyclopedic” – why then, pray tell, is his National Cristina Foundation “encyclopedic?” It’s a completely unreferenced (and currently semi-protected) puff-piece that was written by the same Sunrainprods who, quite coincidentally also penned Maxximus G-Force (which reads like a mirror of Mc Mahans’s racing site,) and who otherwise did nothing to WP, except for one minor edit for Stand up to Cancer? Why is Maxximus G-Force “encyclopedic?” if the owner isn’t? “Not notable” is highly ambiguous and subjective. What’s notable to some is highly boring to others. This must be the first case that someone claims he is “not notable” to make an (not congratulatory) article go away. It’s that same person that finds other facets of his life highly notable and newsworthy. Alleged lack of notability also serves as a highly effective WMD on WP. You don't like an article? Call it "not notable". I'm sure there will be some who share your dislike. If all else fails, make them up. Before I went to “the dark side” of corporate propaganda (the money made me do it), I used to be an investigative journalist. In my professional opinion, Bruce McMahan is extremely notable and newsworthy, and I applaud the journalist who went to the trouble of sifting through dusty court records. I recommend to be careful with the word "libel" or "libelous". In some states, libel can still be a criminal offense, and a felony. Be careful accusing others of potentially criminal acts. Speaking of libel, truth is an absolute defense against libel accusations. If you have court documents (as the Voice does) to back up your claims. you are pretty much libel-proof. What's more, a "person of public interest" (and McMahan should qualify) has a higher threshold of libel. He or she must prove malice, which most often is an insurmountable burden. As the WP is not in possession of the documents, I can understand that the WP is less enthusiastic than the Voice. However, the proper amount of "according to" and "it is alleged" would solve that matter. A lot here may be clouded by bias against the Village Voice. In my likewise professional opinion, the Village Voice is a first-class paper. It earned its reputation amongst investigative journalists (a dying breed.) It has several Pulitzers to show, along with other awards. Sure, most people have a love it or hate it relationship with the Village Voice – investigative journalism by nature polarizes. I don’t share their political leanings, but I tip my hat to them. Lately, the Voice has been affected by the same problems that affect most publications that are printed on dead forests: Lack of readership and budget. The Wall Street Journal also isn’t what it used to be. Formerly voluptuous magazines look downright anorexic. Lazy (or call that overworked) journalism is quite the norm these days. If – in this day and age - someone takes the time and the trouble to thoroughly follow-up on a story, this person has my complete respect. Especially when under fire from lawyers. The Voice deserves another award, they don’t deserve to be called “hacks” or be marginalized as “bloggers.” - That reminds me: I blog every day. For money. It’s accepted as serious journalism. Should I be offended? The "hack" and "blogger" exchange (and the minions response) didn’t help the matter. I am not related in any way with McMahan (had never heard of him or his hobbies), or Ortega, or the Voice. I have no moral outrage issues with either of them. But the matter has piqued my professional interest. The article and the talk pages are gone. Even some of the AFD discussions are gone (although accessible with a little digging). The AFD cases strike me as a bit strange. One “nomination withdrawn”, followed by one “keep” and then suddenly, one unanimous delete followed by a speedy. It is a little disconcerting to note that several attempts have now been made to quash this discussion also. Speaking of DRV-Lite, I’d like to look a bit more into the matter. I would especially like to form an opinion whether there was puppetry involved in the 3rd AFD, or if the article had been sufficiently neutered by a whole Sesame Street of puppets to be worthy of a sudden strong “Delete” vote by totally uninvolved editors. In accordance with the rules set forth by WP:DELREV I request (alternatively, in descending rank of preference) That the article, edit histories, and the attendant talk pages are temporarily restored, if necessary completely edit-blocked. That the article, edit histories, and the attendant talk pages are restored to my user space That the article, edit histories, and the attendant talk pages are sent to my email. Thank you.BsBsBs (talk) 13:01, 15 October 2010 (UTC) No edit history is available for that article. This means that no admin is able to see the article, or to fulfill any of your requests. I suppose that the article was oversighted, and that only an oversighter can decide to fulfill any of your requests (assuming that there is anything in the edit history that is not "oversightworthy", since things that really need oversight are never sent to users afterwards, AFAIK). Fram (talk) 13:33, 15 October 2010 (UTC) Huh? What page are you talking about? Special:Undelete/David Bruce McMahan and Special:Undelete/Bruce McMahan works for me. T. Canens (talk) 13:42, 15 October 2010 (UTC) BsBsBs linked to the secure server. The equivalent pages on the normal server work as expected. Rd232 13:51, 15 October 2010 (UTC) Ah, that explains it. Thanks, both of you, for correcting my mistake and explaining it! Fram (talk) 14:10, 15 October 2010 (UTC) I get: "Unauthorized - The action you have requested is limited to users in one of the groups: Administrators, Researchers. I must not be of the chosen few. BsBsBs (talk) 14:14, 15 October 2010 (UTC) You clearly haven't got a clue of how Misplaced Pages works. Most people who haven't been editing here for at least a few months don't have a clue, so that's normal. What's not normal is that such a huge drama is being made out of a simple misunderstanding of Misplaced Pages's mission. I suggest that before lecturing hundreds of editors about how they have been manipulated and put under pressure by a person from (in many cases) a different continent, and whom they never heard of, you take one day's deletion discussions (random example) and read them, to get a feeling for how we generally do things here. But of course you might not be interested in doing so, because it might disprove your conspiracy theory. Hans Adler 13:51, 15 October 2010 (UTC) Oho, Mr. Adler, landed right at the bottom of Sven Manguard's triangle, didn't we? Are you perchance referring to the fact that I am from a different continent? FYI, I plied my profession in the U.S.A, for 27 years, and I still pay my taxes here. As for the rest of it: Sticks and stones. You can try insulting me as much a you want, I'm used to it. BsBsBs (talk) 14:08, 15 October 2010 (UTC) ??? You seemed to be overdramatising so I thought you were this Village Voice guy or someone related. Now I see you have been around a bit longer, though apparently not enough to understand our notability criteria. Sorry for the confusion. Hans Adler 14:24, 15 October 2010 (UTC) I am following procedure as outlined in WP:DELREV. I don't know how the request is fulfilled and who will fulfill it. WP:DELREV doesn't mention any oversighting. I strongly doubt that the data have been erased and thrown away. Suppositions are not helpful. Again, I am filing this request in order to help me form an opinion whether this article should be nominated for WP:DELREV. In the business, we used to call this "file an FOIA request." BsBsBs (talk) 13:52, 15 October 2010 (UTC) The October 2009 third AFD had 6 participants, of which two are admins, plus 1 user now at 17k edits, one at 8k. The discussion was on the basis of a version of the article with no mention of the controversy, which had been removed in August by a new account which did not participate. Rd232 13:57, 15 October 2010 (UTC) It must be cleanup day. Write a few lines, and suddenly, National Cristina Foundation, and Maxximus G-Force are redlinked. I amend my request and add National Cristina Foundation, and Maxximus G-Force to the request. Thank you . BsBsBs (talk) 14:30, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

I just collapsed this entire mess, my comments included. Continue posting there if you feel the need to be nonconstructive. Lets look at the above issues:

• Issue 1: The 'libelous' comments by the Voice: has been beaten to death by the community. The voice itself is a reliable source, it's blog, perhaps less so, and Jimbo Wales fiercely denies money as a factor in these deletions
• Issue 2: The meatpuppets: has been over for days.
• Issue 3: The article history: is the cause of most of the stuff in the box.

A primer on the article history. (Mind you this is detective work and I have not seen previous versions)

At one point this was a functional article. It was put up for deletion twice and survived twice. Between the second and third AfDs, the article was whitewashed, and became unbalanced towards a positive view of McMahan. It was deleted by community consensus as a bad article. The article was then recreated, this time heavily in the balance against McMahan. I, with my special talent for stepping unknowingly into existing conflicts, put it up for speedy deletion. I saw an attack page with a history of deletion, and put it up for the CSD for recreations of deleted material. Then I saw the comment and the puppets and posted this thread.

That's it people. No conspiracy theory, I don't care if the man has an article or not, it was a procedural nomination. I don't know anyone else involved, I'm not a minion, and I am tired of the drama unfolding in the box.

We need to end this mess now. Stop posting outside of the box, heck stop posting on this period. There is a proper forum for determining notability, and it ISN'T HERE.

And god bless our tortured souls, Sven Manguard _Talk 15:05, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Just curious, Sven, but you comment on the earlier, deleted versions of the articles - have you seen them, or are you speculating as to their content? Delicious carbuncle (talk) 15:29, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

No, as I said before this is my first interaction with the articles of this person. However I am assuming in good faith that the people that have seen the articles are being accurate in their depictions, and these assertions are backed up in the various AfDs by the comments of experienced editors. Sven Manguard _Talk 15:50, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Discussion Collapse

I don't think the collapsing of large parts of this discussion is a prudent move.

• It removes large parts of the discussion from plain view and will add fuel to allegations that there is something to hide
• It breaks the links from the Table Of Content and confuses users
• There is no other reason for the collapse

Also, if this is not the proper place to discuss notability, then notability should not have been introduced right at the beginning of the discussion.

I totally understand that Sven wants this discussion to go away. It will go away the old fashioned way, by the problems being resolved. Causing a collapse of the page and communication is not conducive to a solution..

Also, I reiterate the application I made above. It was no frivolous application. I meant it. A similar application had been made above, and it has been likewise ignored. BsBsBs (talk) 22:06, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

AfD non-admin closure

NAC reverted, community has sufficiently expressed its displeasure with the conduct involved

Resolved – NAC reverted by Bali ultimate SnottyWong  01:22, 14 October 2010 (UTC) Can an admin take a look at this non-admin closure and revert if necessary: Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Fight or Flight (Star Trek: Enterprise). I don't think that this nomination was "unquestionably vandalism or disruption", which is part of the WP:SK policy that the closer references. The nomination points out notability issues and is clearly not an attempt to "end an editing dispute through deletion, where dispute resolution is a more appropriate course". Also, there was a vote to merge the article already, so speedy keep doesn't seem appropriate here. Colonel Warden often comments about AfD's he deems inappropriate because the most likely outcome will be a merge, not deletion. It appears he is trying to take this to the next level by actually closing AfD's he deems inappropriate. SnottyWong  01:06, 14 October 2010 (UTC) Non-admin, but this doesn't look like vandalism or disruption; in fact I see none of the criteria at SK have been met. Merging is acceptable after an AFD if it's agreed on the tpage of the relevant article. You should have noted that the vote to merge was yours, and in any case that is only a criterion for speedy keep if the nominator withdraws and/or suggests it. → ROUX ₪ 01:15, 14 October 2010 (UTC) I agree with your assessment, but as I am somewhat involved (I agreed with the merge at another venue) I can't really do anything about it. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs 01:15, 14 October 2010 (UTC) Without getting too deep into the specifics of this particular incident, the Colonel is increasingly trying to use his own interpretations of policies to bully, hector, and harrass other users and stifle debate at various AFDs. Policies are tools, not weapons to be used to further someone's pet wiki-philosophy, and the Colonel needs to understand that. Beeblebrox (talk) 01:16, 14 October 2010 (UTC) Yes, I forgot to disclose that the one vote to merge was made by me. SnottyWong  01:18, 14 October 2010 (UTC) I've reopened. Problem solved.Bali ultimate (talk) 01:19, 14 October 2010 (UTC) Thanks. SnottyWong  01:21, 14 October 2010 (UTC) Thanks for taking care of this issue. This editor has been stalking me a bit lately, removing prods without explanation. They seem to be adamant in their anti-deletion views. I see a couple of admins have left some cautionary words on this editors talk page. Hopefully this will calm things down a bit.--RadioFan (talk) 02:01, 14 October 2010 (UTC) If there is evidence that this was a pointy close, he should be blocked until he unequivocally states he won't repeat the behaviour.--Crossmr (talk) 06:14, 14 October 2010 (UTC) The discussion has been restarted and we observe that not a single editor has agreed with the nominator's proposition that the article be deleted. Nominations of this sort are sadly very common and their outcomes are therefore quite familiar. When a merge discussion is already underway for such an article, it seems to be disruptive to nominate it for deletion as this is forking the discussion in a forum-shopping manner. SK criterion 2.4 exists to curtail such process abuse and seemed quite appropriate. When SK criteria apply then the whole point of that subprocess is that it be used speedily so as to be effective in shutting down an inappropriate discussion. Colonel Warden (talk) 06:43, 14 October 2010 (UTC) And no-admin closures are only to be used in clear cut cases when it is a non-controversial close. A long time user has also made an argument for deletion at this point.--Crossmr (talk) 12:35, 14 October 2010 (UTC) Colonel, you are adept at pointing out that no one has agreed with the nominator, however you seem to be blind to the fact that no one (out of about 10 editors) has agreed with you that any SK criteria apply to that AfD, or to similar AfD's. Continuing to argue your point will not change this. Accept that you were wrong and don't do it again. SnottyWong  13:45, 14 October 2010 (UTC) i think the colonel probably did not follow policy but after reading this i can see why he thought that SK 2 4 nominations that are clearly an attempt to end an editing dispute through deletion applied. the colonel should probably have contacted an admin since this was going to be controversial, but i can see why the colonel might have thought this was an ok thing to do. Aisha9152 (talk) 14:02, 14 October 2010 (UTC) IIRC he's done this before, so no, I would not assume good faith here. And following the the reversal, it has all (one flawed IAR and one "they're all notable" notwithstanding) gone to the delete or merge end of things. Tarc (talk) 14:09, 14 October 2010 (UTC) i only see 2 keep votes. 1 is yours and the other was someone in the original merge discussion. that doesnt sound like "all gone to the delete" to me. Aisha9152 (talk) 14:12, 14 October 2010 (UTC) You are misreading it completely, then. I and someone else right above mine called for deletion, and there have been 4 calls to merge following the re-opening. dream Focus' keep will certainly be discarded, and JClemens is not as bad but still just a WP:ITSNOTABLE jingle. Tarc (talk) 14:30, 14 October 2010 (UTC) im sorry i meant i see only 2 delete votes, yours and the person from the original discussion. and i see that you called someone pathetic. this does not seem constructive, and you probably shouldnt say whose votes count and whose dont since you are involved and this is not the place to discuss that anyway. Aisha9152 (talk) 15:01, 14 October 2010 (UTC) I called the response pathetic, not the user. When said user essentially lies about the rationale I used for my deletion opinion, I find the term more than fitting. Tarc (talk) 15:07, 14 October 2010 (UTC) I have stricken the term, so we can avoid going down side-tangents, though. Tarc (talk) 16:06, 14 October 2010 (UTC) i have a question if someone put a link to this afd under the discussion under the main merge discussion page would that be canvassing? Aisha9152 (talk) 14:20, 14 October 2010 (UTC) No, just a link that says "this article has been proposed for deletion. The deletion discussion is here" is fine. Just don't say anything else. Elen of the Roads (talk) 15:19, 14 October 2010 (UTC) well i mean because the discussion for the merge is actually on a different articles talk page and i think the people opposed to the merge might not be watching the page but were in the original discussion. Aisha9152 (talk) 15:23, 14 October 2010 (UTC) Getting back to the original point here, it's clear that the speedy closure of this debate was a move not supported by consensus. I feel it is important that the message be sent to Colonel Warden than this sort of thing is not acceptable and that he acknowledge consensus is against it. We don't all have to agree here, but we do need to be able to acknowledge and abide by consensus even if we happen to disagree with it. This problem goes beyond just this one afd closure, the Colonel has been issuing a lot of orders lately. Policies are not meant to be used as instruments of war to silence ones opponents. Indeed, we should not even be thinking of one another as opponents as that creates the type of battleground mentality that has a tendency to crop when someone is overly confrontational and bossy with other users and makes broad declarations that seem to indicate that their interpretation of policy is the only valid one. Beeblebrox (talk) 18:02, 14 October 2010 (UTC) You might be better of looking at your own conduct first and making an effort to be more collegial. Unless youre trying to make folk laff at the idea youre a worthy foe for someone like the Colonel, your inflammatory language - "try a little harder colonel" - is only going to escalate matters especially following your uncivil and crude response to the Colonels policy based keep vote. FeydHuxtable (talk) 19:18, 14 October 2010 (UTC) "Worthy foe?" Whose trying to make who laugh here? I don't want to be anyone's foe, that's the whole point. I don't wish to take orders from the Colonel and it's important that people be willing to acknowledge when consensus does not support their position, something I am willing to do, and as we can see here it is not something the Colonel is willing to do in this case. I have no interest in forming an adversarial relationship with the Colonel, but when someone shows up at an afd and implies you are a moron and they are here to correct your stupidity with their superior policy knowledge, it does tend to rub one the wrong way. That he now appears to be collecting evidence to support his view of how great and wise he is tends to support the view that he is digging in his heels and preparing to fight rather than being willing to acknowledge consensus is against him. Beeblebrox (talk) 20:23, 14 October 2010 (UTC) i think feyd has a point. originally i thought colonel was out of line but now that i see how the people who disagree with him act like in their example of beeblebrox's behavior to the colonel, or tarc's behavior in general and to me personally here saying to mind my own business in the afd discussion i wonder if colonels actions were the result of weeks of frustration with people. maybe he did not know the right way to deal with the situation. Aisha9152 (talk) 21:51, 14 October 2010 (UTC) Agreed, Beeblebrox. Though I did vote to keep the article the early close was completely out of line and there will be consequences if it happens again. Enough is enough. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 22:40, 14 October 2010 (UTC) I actually came to the conclusion that this was getting too personal and have buried the hatchet with Colonel Warden. Hopefully we've all learned something here. Beeblebrox (talk) 23:13, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

To collapse or not to collapse

Always a pleasure to see someone from the same wikiproject, involved in the discussion coming along to bury any talk about their compatriot. Even better when they don't sign their name so we have to dig through the history to find out who did it.--Crossmr (talk) 00:41, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

You'll note that Bali Ultimate originally undid the close, Snottywong marked the thread resolved, and multiple people including me admonished the editor (at his talk page or here) for his action. You want to heap some more abuse on Colonel Warden? Think that will help the project? Then by all means revert the hatting and go for it, if it'll make you feel better. Jclemens (talk) 06:31, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes, and you'll note that you voted keep on the article, participate in the same wikiproject that colonel warden does, which has been brought up in the deletion discussion, and hatted this without signing your name. I can't see any reason for hatting it in the first place, threads are left up for 24 hours for a reason. So all time zones can participate in the discussion.I made a comment before I crashed, only to awaken and find it locked up and hatted. This rush to try and bury threads and prevent discussion is getting out of hand, especially by heavily involved editors.--Crossmr (talk) 09:06, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

While I fundamentally disagree with clemens on...oh, everything...I'm still a bit of an optimist when it comes to admins and their tools. This discussion had devolved into general bitching (i.e. "worthy foe". lulz) and really did need to have a pillow stuffed over its face. So to speak. Tarc (talk) 15:54, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

He didn't use any admin tools or abilities when hatting the discussion. Any user could have done that, and routinely non-admins do throw up resolved tags, or put archive hats, or shrink discussions here as non-involved parties without any kind of conflict of interest. While certain parties may have degenerated, they could have been asked to step back and let other editors who may have had something to add do so.--Crossmr (talk) 16:01, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Yea, but what else were we going to get out of this? Warden screwed up, again, and got reverted. The AfD rumbles on. If you wanna propose sanctions for him for doing this then I'd toss in a cheerful support there, but it should really begin in a fresh discussion. Tarc (talk) 16:06, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

We already had a fine section on him in which sanctions could have been proposed if they were needed. Why start moving things around to other sections? we almost always keep things related and if a new section had been started its almost certain someone would have ended up merging it into this section anyway. Related sections are almost always merged on here.--Crossmr (talk) 00:29, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

(ec) What additional outcome do you want to see, that was inappropriately cut short by my collapsing the section? I didn't see any additional positive outcome, hence I collapsed it. If I'm wrong, tell me what I'm overlooking, revert the collapse, and continue on with the discussion. If, on the other hand, you just want to complain about something, then don't let my sincere efforts to be responsive to criticism get in the way of your efforts at emotional fulfillment. Jclemens (talk) 16:08, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

I have to agree with Jclemens here. I marked the thread "Resolved" a mere 18 minutes after I started it, because the issue had been resolved by an uninvoled editor. Yet here we are, still discussing it nearly 40 hours later. I agree that many of Colonel Warden's editing patterns are disturbing, but unless you're going to start an RFC/U on it (which I would also support) there is nothing further that is going to be accomplished here besides plain old bitching. SnottyWong  17:25, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

RFC/U is a wasteland of pointlessness. Let's all spend a month or more in a non-binding situation in which the subject of the RFC/U is under no obligation to reply.--Crossmr (talk) 00:29, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

You're the one who performed the action. I haven't seen you make a case for why this needed to be collapsed in the first place, or why you needed to be the one to do it. You wrote a little summary, but it's hardly grounds for collapsing, let alone even hatting. "sufficient" is a very subjective observation, and the community has already agreed that discussions should be given 24 hours before we get rid of them unless there are some extreme circumstances, and this was hardly a very long conversation at that point. It's possible that sanctions could have been suggested but the discussion has been derailed now. in the future I'd recommend you only collapse discussions which truly need it and not ones in which you're heavily involved where it could look like you're trying to cover up for someone in your camp.--Crossmr (talk) 00:29, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

User:AbsoluteGleek92 and lack of communication

This user does controversial edits to film articles everyday without leaving an edit summary. There’s a lot of good edits and there’s some that go against the WP:MOSFILM. The problem is that the user has been given warnings every month since they signed up in July of this year to use an edit summary, and has not given a single response or sign of acknowledgement. We would like to communicate with this user, but it seems impossible. I think this is a clear case of disruptive and tendentious editing. What should be done about this in order to encourage collaborate editing? Mike Allen 05:13, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Just a side note, and this may be part of the problem, is that there was, especially in the early going, very little actual communication with this user. The first dozen or so contacts consist solely of templated warnings, and the bulk of the page (i'd estimate 90% of it) is nothing but substed warning templates. Any actual human contact is really buried there. Just to stretch AGF a bit, and take the side of the accused, if I had gotten what looked like a series of automated messages the first 10 times the "you have messages" bar showed up, I may not understand that real people are trying to communicate with me. The WP:UWT templates certainly don't look like a real person trying to talk to someone, and for someone unfamiliar with Misplaced Pages, it could just look like some automated process which is easy to ignore. He may be resisting communication because he legitimately doesn't know anyone is trying to actually discuss things with him. This is where the UWT templates can go wrong, especially in light of WP:BITE. I am not saying this is necessarily the case with this user, just that it is one possibility besides the idea that he is willfully ignoring you just to be a dick. --Jayron32 05:29, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

I take your point, but he has never communicated on any talk page. I'll leave him a personal message and if he doesn't respond, block him. Hopefully one of those will do the trick. Dougweller (talk) 05:39, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

He makes a lot of good edits (template changes and other tidying up) bundled together with other edits that are not helpful, and sometimes make no sense. Rather than making one edit at a time, he makes several all at once, and offers no explanation for his actions. The templating did get out of control, and I am one of the culprits. But, when no response was forthcoming, I kept trying to prod him into a response. Obviously, this did not work. Hopefully, Doug's message might. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 14:46, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Ok, fine, if that's how you're going to play it, I'll add edit summaries if it'll make you people shut up. AbsoluteGleek92 (talk) 11:35, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Will you add a side of civility to go with it? The request that you use edit summaries is not based on a whim, but on sound and well thought out policy that makes perfect sense. S.G. _ping! 21:10, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

I've a better idea: forget the edit summaries and cease editing altogether. If you are going to respond to this rather simple request with the kind and level of incivility you have shown above, we might well be better off without your assistance. If, on the other hand, you want to continue editing you will do so with a modicum of respect toward your fellow editors. I certainly believe that we have extended such respect to you. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 01:38, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Well that wasn't the response I was expecting (at least we got one), but it shows he's not willing to work with others. Mike Allen 04:25, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Between 19:47, 14 October 2010 and 20:28, 14 October 2010, he was listening. He has now apparently forgotten. It goes beyond simple lack of edit summaries and shows a little WP:IDHT and WP:CIVIL problems I guess. S.G. _ping! 13:45, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Grundle Again

He's been very active today, reposting rejected stuff from long ago. Could someone clean out all the subpages at User:Grundle2600? I'm not sure how to even look at them, but he's retrieving from somewhere, and this is my first guess. PhGustaf (talk) 05:32, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

I've gotten started, but its a sysiphian task, the list is here: There's probably 40 or 50 or so. I am going to bed soon, so if any other admin wants to take over, that's cool... --Jayron32 05:37, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

There are some useful things in those subpages; it's not all rubbish. Jonathunder (talk) 06:18, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Oh, its not that, taken in isolation, they are necessarily bad. It's that, in the hands of the long-since banned Grundle, they are being used to continue his disruption. --Jayron32 06:24, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Grundle2600's subpages: user talk —DoRD (talk) 12:31, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

They're not very useful if they're being used disruptively by a community banned user. If someone wanted to make legitimate use of them they would have done it already. Misplaced Pages is not a webhost or online storage: delete the lot to help prevent the ongoing disruption. - Burpelson AFB ✈ 15:37, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Retain the userboxes and talk page archives, but much of the rest appears to be aborted articles or userfied copies of deleted ones. Will this all have to head to MfD, or can an admin just can it unilaterally, given the snowball's chance in hell nature of the indef ever being lifted? Tarc (talk) 15:45, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

One of the pages caught my eye, and I sent it to MfD. Let's see if it can be dispatched without drama. --Enric Naval (talk) 16:38, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Do we really have to go through that? I mentioned his sub-page on Michelle Obama's arms here recently and an admin deep-sixed it. Here are a couple of others that can only be useful to Grundle's POV campaign User:Grundle2600/Obama Bear Market and User:Grundle2600/Teleprompter. The guy is banned and he's only here to disrupt. Take his toys away. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 23:08, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Oh, and User:Grundle2600/Reann_Ballslee. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 23:12, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

I doubt it'll make any difference, but anyway, all of User:Grundle2600's old WP:FAKEARTICLE subpages are now gone. Rd232 09:02, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

What about User:Grundle2600/Carmen and User:Grundle2600/Doughnut Days 2009? --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 16:51, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Completely undiscussed controversial climate change move needs reverting

A less than a month old account that originally claimed to be a WP:CLEANSTART case and still has no obvious link to the user's previous identity has just moved Climate change denial to Criticism of Climate Change (yes, complete with the wrong capitalisation) without any prior discussion. To avoid a move war, can an uninvolved admin please move back so that a discussion at WP:RM can be started cleanly. Thank you. Hans Adler 06:48, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Done and move protection enabled. Toddst1 (talk) 06:56, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Just for clarity, can you or someone provide a diff to the account's claim of cleanstart? Cheers, Ncmvocalist (talk) 06:57, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

da diff Toddst1 (talk) 07:03, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

See new section below, which I have been preparing since I started this report. Off to a lecture now. Hans Adler 07:14, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Heh, and I was just thinking I'd seen this user's editing style before.... Ncmvocalist (talk) 07:26, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

No problem... See here**Terra Novus's Diff**..I will stop editing this article if it really is such a issue due to me being a recent WP:CLEANSTART, but I hope that the more experienced editors involved will fix this article's WP:NPOV issues...--Novus Orator 07:07, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

As a relevant aside, I'm about to close the Climate Change ArbCom case (once I have breakfast) and will be posting the details later today. Dougweller (talk) 07:40, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

About the user

After some additional research, here is some further reading:

• WP:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive638#Edit warring on Cryptozoology articles – 13-15 September, ANI discusses what to do with the disruption caused by the Gniniv in cryptozoology area
• Gniniv claims to retire (15 September)
• First edit by Terra Novus claims clean start (18 September)
• WP:Sockpuppet investigations/Terra Novus/Archive – 28 September, user asks for CU to clear them from suspected connection with FellGleaming
• User talk:Carcharoth#Confirmation – 1 October; user goes to an arbitrator's talk page for rubber stamping of their "clean start" after it came out that they had not notified anyone after disappearing while community action against them was discussed
• WP:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive642#User:Gniniv / User:Terra Novus / "Novus Orator" – 4 October ANI discussion
• Undiscussed highly contentious move in climate change area
• Extreme POV editing in climate change area

This seems to be a competence problem rather than bad faith, but something needs to be done. Hans Adler 07:14, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

If certain types of editing are causing similar issues in other topics, then a topic ban is unlikely to do much good. Unless the Community is willing to put the user on probation (see Misplaced Pages:Editing restrictions for examples), or a mentorship thing (which is a timesink), I'm not sure anything short of a ban or indef block would be able to address such a situation. Ncmvocalist (talk) 07:34, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

I would encourage this editor to take this opportunity to completely leave all controversial topics, or at least to return to his initial account. To Terra Novus, if you continue having problems like this with the new account, I think you'll quickly be banned, since you will be taking too much community time when people have to figure out what you're up to. If you want to keep trying to improve controversial topics, and you want a fair hearing, you should go back to your other account. Really, I would recommend getting out of contentious topics altogether, since candidly, you don't show a sensitivity to the types of things that will get you in trouble across the board. But for maximum leeway you should surely go back to your first account. Only if you are extremely confident that you can stay out of all controversial topics altogether with this account, as well as any areas in which you've previously edited, is there any remotely plausible chance that you will not be sanctioned under this new account, at least in my opinion. Mackan79 (talk) 07:54, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

WP:CLEANSTART is quite clear in its statement that editors who decide to place {{retired}} on their original account and create a new account should not return to edit the articles/subjects that they previously edited as it could lead to WP:SOCK issues. If the intent was to simply keep editing the same way, one cannot claim cleanstart. One can hold an WP:Alternate account for specific purposes, but at this point, the new account does not meet them. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 12:12, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

You are absolutely right, and as I said above I have stopped editing Climate Change articles. If any one will take the time to look at my edit history as Terra Novus (After my cleanstart), they will see that I have adhered to the noncontentious topics policy in the articles I have chosen to edit. This was just a ignorant misstep on my part into a new subject that was too contentious. As I acted in good faith (and, to be honest, in ignorance of the move request policy) I hope that the community will understand my full adherence to Misplaced Pages's principles.--Novus Orator 04:16, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Unconstructive edits at the Soviet ministry articles

• Harrypotter (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) he is creating two articldes on the same topic; the People's Commissariat for Finance and the Ministry of Finance of the USSR, and all other commissariat and ministrial articles on the topic of the USSR. The organizations are the name, sources say so, these organizations were renamed. At the same time, the organisations' structure and its duties and responsibilities stayed the same after ther renaming process. Creating TWO articles ON THE SAME topic is ludicrous. Also he is copying material that i wrote on the ministry pages on the people's commissariat pages, so the pages become redundant.

List of examples:

• see his talk page, he is unwilling to discuss a solution
• See the pages of the People's Commissariat for Foreign Affairs and People's Commissariat for Finance revision history, he is creating articles which has copied material from the ministry articles' i wrote. See his recent edit on the Council of People's Commissars. Sources say it was renamed, Soviet sources from the renaming process says it was reorganised, I don't really give a dam about the reorganisation process seeing these organisation had very little effect on the basic structures on these ministries.
• he creates redundant second articles like this one (link) and copies the text of the Ministry of Finance articles, he has done the same thing to the People's Commissariat for Foreign Affairs on several occasions. It may not be vandalism, but it is REALLY unconstructive and thats the reason for why he should be blocked for 24 hours, because of his uconstructive edits. If you do this, he might stop his unconstructive behavior. --TIAYN (talk) 13:24, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Note that redirects already existed from the OLD name (commissariat) to the NEW name (ministry). What Harrypotter has done is copied the text from the ministry article into the redirect (without accreditation!), removing the redirect. This may simply be due to him not being particularly familiar with Misplaced Pages, but he ought to respond to explanations that this is not the way to do it. TIAYN has now restored the redirects, which is the right thing to do. As long as Harrypotter does not edit war over this, or try to do any others, there shouldn't be a problem. Elen of the Roads (talk) 14:13, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Further, User:Magog the Ogre has warned him about copypasting, and I have advised that any new information he wishes to add needs to go in the existing article. Elen of the Roads (talk) 14:17, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Harrypotter has been here since June 2005 and has made over 12,000 edits, so he should be rather familiar with how Misplaced Pages works by now... Fram (talk) 14:19, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

I notice on his talkpage that another editor is arguing that the commissariats and the ministries should have separate articles . I have no comments as to whether that view is correct but I have left a note that it is the copypasta that is the significant problem - he needs to create the articles properly.Elen of the Roads (talk) 15:48, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Soviet sources say reorganised/renamed, modern scholarly sources say renamed, this means, the People's Commissariats and Ministries are just the same, there is no need for two seperate articles covering the same topic, when the article in itself are very small and sources are already very scarce. --TIAYN (talk) 16:11, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

That is a content discussion for another place. And could you stop marking all your edits as minor please. If you have the 'mark all edits as minor' option turned on, could you turn it off. Thanks Elen of the Roads (talk) 16:13, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

here, the Soviet law say transformed, but never say they dissolved the Council of People's Commissars and created a new executive branch, known as the Council of Ministers of the USSR. It says transformed, and it says that for a reason. Yes, it is a content issue, but it is a serious one and when editiors act as unconstructive as he does, it is hard to improve the coverage of these ministries. --TIAYN (talk) 16:17, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

There are now good suggestions on Harrypotter's talkpage about where to discuss whether one or two articles are appropriate (especially as you appear to have merged two into one at some point). Harrypotter's faulty process in how he recreated the articles does not invalidate that need for discussion on the underlying content dispute. Elen of the Roads (talk) 17:35, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

• Just a brief note to opine that Trust Is All You Need is correct, historically speaking, that the "People's Commissariats" were simply renamed "Ministries." An American analogy would be the renaming of the "War Department" to the "Defense Department" — the name change does not indicate an institutional change, only a change of nomenclature, and there should not be two articles established on that basis. Carrite (talk) 20:41, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Remember to notify users when reporting them to ANI. Harrypotter has now been notified. --Stickee (talk) 22:19, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

• Comment - I declined a block at Misplaced Pages:AN3#User:Harrypotter reported by User:Trust Is All You Need (Result:declined). I also recommended the users file a dispute, that this is not appropriate for an administrator noticeboard yet. And frankly, to reporter: the fact that you got turned down at AN3 and brought the matter here (without making a link) is forum shopping. I'm marking this as closed, as there is no new information. Magog the Ogre (talk) 22:27, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
  • Comment - also was turned down at AIV.  7  00:40, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Ta bu shi da yu has already left the building

Not only have I left the building, but I left in style. Three times now, each time to the catcalls and brickbats of many adoring fans and haters (sadly more haters than fans).

Perhaps you could delete the ridiculous accusation of sock-puppetry on my old user page? I was curious to see if anyone had left any messages and was surprised that anyone would be stupid enough to have recreated the old user page!!!

Thanks. - 114.76.235.170 (talk) 14:20, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Oh, didn't realise why this happened. Should have realised. Thanks Xeno/Risker. - 114.76.235.170 (talk) 14:32, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Sheesh, I couldn't even post here to say I'd responded to the CSD for all the edit conflicts! No worries TBSDY. Risker (talk) 14:40, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Left, but still editing as an IP isn't quite the same as left. DuncanHill (talk) 16:17, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, I was thinking that's a bit odd - if it is who s/he claims to be. I'm pretty sure that's well outsite WP:Vanish with or without self-proclaimed style. Toddst1 (talk) 17:59, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

I don't think the WP:VANISH rules were written with the intent of ensuring that false accusations of sockpupetry would remain on vanished users talk pages. But I've been wrong before.--Cube lurker (talk) 18:08, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Did Tbsdy lives (talk) exercise WP:VANISH, or simply retire? TFOWR 18:15, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

I don't see any indication they exercised RTV. –xeno 18:51, 14 October 2010 (UTC) I forgot about the talk page bit

He somehow persuaded Arbcom to enforce an out-of-process and contrary to policy deletion of his usertalk pages, so he managed to vanish rather more than would be allowed to editors in good standing. DuncanHill (talk) 20:12, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

and now has the audacity to ask that a false claim of sockpupetry be removed.--Cube lurker (talk) 20:16, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Oh for Pete's sake, no-one is complaining about the removal of a mistaken sock notice. What I'm complaining about is how come he gets to have his talk page deleted as being forever gone and in special circumstances, but then carries on editing as an IP. It was strongly implied that if he returned the talk page would be restored. The IP's contributions are clearly his. DuncanHill (talk) 23:12, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Gentleman, I make small on and off edits under an IP address. Indeed, I vanished. Until I noticed that someone had added something to the Ta bu shi da yu page I didn't post here. If you look at the edit history of that IP address, you'll notice that I edited a few articles and asked a few anonymous questions about statistics related matters because I'm teaching myself statistics. If folks like DuncanHill want to get all high and mighty about it, well tough. I'm not contributing a great deal, but I'm still making the odd edit. I was never banned, so far as I know. However, it's a moot point as you'll never, ever really know it's me editing if I decide to switch ISPs. To all intents and purposes, I have indeed vanished. Thank you one and all, and especially to those who cleared up the very small matter of my old user talk page. - 114.76.235.170 (talk) 10:08, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

You haven't retired, you haven't vanished (an early talk page edit from your IP made it clear you were a returning "old-hand". Yet, somehow, you have persuaded Arbcom to threaten any admin who follows policy and restores your account's talk page. No, you weren't ever banned, but you've gamed the system like a pro. DuncanHill (talk) 10:25, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Just add, have you read Facts from Figures by Moroney? It's jolly good. DuncanHill (talk) 10:27, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

As the user has clearly not "left Misplaced Pages finally and forever," the user has not WP:Vanished at all, rather has switched to an IP address. The "right to vanish" is not a "right to a fresh start" under a new identity. I have tagged the IP address as such and restored the user's talk page. Toddst1 (talk) 18:48, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

• See thread further down - Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Restored user talk pages

Restored user talk pages

• See also Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Ta_bu_shi_da_yu_has_already_left_the_building for background. DuncanHill (talk) 23:36, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

I can't believe it. I anonymously made a few edits from an Optus Cable account and you have restored my user talk pages? I've never seen such an act of bastardy on Misplaced Pages, ever. - 114.76.235.170 (talk) 23:19, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Oh do give it a rest, you are starting to bore people.  Giacomo  23:22, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

It is a misunderstanding in that you exercised a WP:RTV rather than retiring the account under the circumstances then prevailing, which resulted in the pages being deleted. I do not know whether those circumstances still hold, but if they do then you should contact ArbCom again and see if the deletion can be returned. LessHeard vanU (talk) 23:30, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

If it was RTV, the pages still should not have been deleted sans MfD. I'm fairly sure Brad said that Tbsdy would not be editing again, when he was asked to justify his request that the pages stay deleted. DuncanHill (talk) 23:33, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

I am fairly sure that Brad said that the page should remain deleted, but that comment was made on my talkpage so would have not been seen by too many people. After that point I do not know what transpired, and I assume Toddst1 was acting in good faith and a misunderstanding of the original situation - but it would help if Brad or another Arb could comment on what the position is now. LessHeard vanU (talk) 23:50, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

I have contacted ArbCom, per LHVU's advise. - 114.76.235.170 (talk) 23:55, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the good faith, LHVU. As I stated on my talk, If there was an arbcom decision, I'd be glad to self revert. All I've read is hearsay and a statement from NYB in May asking that the page be left deleted but with a qualification of "at this time." Since then, TBSDY has returned and is actively editing. That changes any RTV. Unless arbcom has ruled, we all follow the same rules. Toddst1 (talk) 00:08, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

It's a misunderstanding, sure, but why are regular editors who know as much about the Misplaced Pages ethic as I do acting so robotically towards a very well regarded editor who has exercised the right of all people in good standing to edit Misplaced Pages anonymously? --TS 23:34, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

I don't think that is a correct representation of the events. The user returned and was quite disruptive, left under a cloud and as I remember had his admin removed, correct me if I am wrong.Off2riorob (talk) 23:47, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

You're not wrong. DuncanHill (talk) 23:51, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Actually, I didn't leave under a cloud, and Brad politely asked me if he could remove my admin rights after I left, which I readily agreed to. - 114.76.235.170 (talk) 23:53, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

As I recall, Brad politely informed the rest of us that your loss of admindom counted as "under a cloud" if you ever asked for them back. I'll sniff about for the diff. DuncanHill (talk) 00:00, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

You recall rather wrongly then. - 114.76.235.170 (talk) 00:09, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

Well, interpretations may differ, but this was the comment I was recalling. DuncanHill (talk) 00:13, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

Oh fuck it. The reason I was leaving was because I was having suicidal thoughts that were causing me a great deal of problems. I have a young family and had I taken my life I would have left a widow and two small children without a father. Happy now? That's the whole fucking reason why Brad was being so oblique, you unbelievable twat. - 114.76.235.170 (talk) 00:16, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

The simple fact here is that I have made a few minor edits to Misplaced Pages, and asked a few questions on the Math RD. All under an anonymous IP address. If I'd asked for my old user page to be deleted via a proxy, then this wouldn't be an issue. But that's not Cricket, so for my honesty I'm being punished? That's fucked up. - 114.76.235.170 (talk) 00:00, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

• To quote Right To Vanish: "Editors who invoke this right should expect that, should they return, their previous identity will be fully restored and may be linked to their new one if required for communal scrutiny, and any open sanctions and outstanding administrator or arbitration matters may be resumed." If you've 'vanished' that doesn't mean you get to edit anonymously; it means you're done here. HalfShadow 00:07, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
  • What is that new identity? And are you saying I'm banned from even making the odd small change to a typo? - 114.76.235.170 (talk) 00:09, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
    • Hint: it starts 114... And yes. If you invoke RTV that means, to use Marcellus Wallace's words, "You get gone. And when you gone, you stay gone." That's how it works. You chose to link an IP to your former account, you decided to break the RTV. In essence, you banned yourself by invoking RTV. → ROUX ₪ 00:14, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
      • • But I didn't link that IP address to my old account. It was a pure accident in that I posted to WP:AN/I asking for the slur that I was a sockpuppet to be removed. Had I not done that you'd never have known... my mistake I guess. - 114.76.235.170 (talk) 00:32, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
    • Given your failure to understand this, I'm curious as to how you became an admin in the first place. Was there a raffle or something? HalfShadow 00:19, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
      • I created this noticeboard. I got quite a few articles to FA status (at the time). I helped organize Wikimeetups. I started Wikiproject Sydney. I did a lot of work to remove trolls, I cleaned up a lot of things, I created the {{fact}} tag, and on and on it goes. - 114.76.235.170 (talk) 00:32, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

• I just tried to write a post explaining the RTV, but realized I could think of exceptions for everything I said was the case. Maybe this is the time to nail down what RTV means. Are pages moved or deleted, do they include talk pages, does it mean the user must never return, or is he allowed to keep on editing under a different name/IP? etc. And what is the difference between RTV and fresh start? SlimVirgin 00:23, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
  • A fresh start means a new account is created, or you start actively contributing to the project under an anonymous IP address. I didn't believe, and still don't, that RTV means that you can't correct typos, or ask questions at the reference desk! - 114.76.235.170 (talk) 00:25, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

• It means different things depending on who is involved (who the editor is, who is handling it). That has always been the problem with it. Strictly speaking talk pages shouldn't be deleted under RTV, but moved to a new name. Strictly speaking if you invoke RTV you're meant to stay vanished. But exceptions abound. SlimVirgin 00:28, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

Wow, Toddst1 just warned me that I'm about to get blocked. Please! As far as I'm concerned, anyone who is actively pursuing someone when they know they have a serious mental illness is a twat, pure and simple. - 114.76.235.170 (talk) 00:28, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

I hope no one ends up being blocked. TB, is there a reason now that you want your talk pages to stay deleted? You don't need to elaborate, but is there still a reason? SlimVirgin 00:30, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes, it's hard for me to elaborate, but it definitely relates to my ongoing illness. - 114.76.235.170 (talk) 00:33, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

Okay, then I am going to delete them for now, and we can continue discussing what to do in the longer term, and in more general terms with this kind of situation. SlimVirgin 00:34, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. If it means that I never, ever edit on this site again (ever! even for typos, etc.) then so be it! - 114.76.235.170 (talk) 00:36, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

Merridew behaviour

Per , and , I ask an uninvolved admin to block Jack Merridew (talk · contribs) for disruption. This is a continuation of a pattern of abusive editing on Merridew's part to impose his preferred styles on articles over objections. He is now accusing me of "harrassment" for undoing his undiscussed changes to the styles established in articles that I previously edited. Merridew was banned by arbcom for past stalking and abuse of multiple accounts. His current arbcom sanction mentions " follow dispute resolution processes to resolve editing conflicts". I submit he has failed to do so. I believe, at this point, his behaviour is more than serious enough to warrant a block. I would block him myself for disruption, but other admins have felt I am involved. (I will be offline for many hours now.) Gimmetoo (talk) 19:33, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

You are involved; and very much so.  pablo 19:38, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Baseball Bugs (talk • contribs) 19:46, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Seems like a content dispute, and a kinda lame one at that. Is there a version that is more frequently used in other actor bios? Has this been discussed in a style guideline perhaps in a wikiproject? Tarc (talk) 19:52, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

It's not about colours or styles or my editing; he's decided to target me. Merridew 20:10, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

• this statement
• ANI632#obstruction of ref clean-up
• ANI632#Gimmetoo, again
• ANI641#RexxS behaviour (which was about Gimme' reverting me)

Merridew 21:40, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Not going to lie, after reading over those diffs, and your ANI report, it looks like you, Gimmetoo, are the one who has been doing all the harassing. If there's a content dispute, take it back to square one with Jack and discuss it civilly. For the record, Jack is more than willing to talk about his edits. On a side note, considering that you yourself do not have all too stellar of a track record, I encourage you to not hurl stones at other people's glass houses when you live in one yourself. -FASTILY 20:45, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Well, that last bit isn't very fair. One 12hr block for 3RR and one temporary indef to confirm that an alt account was genuine does not make one's abode a glass one. Tarc (talk) 21:25, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

• I agree with Fastily's summary of the interactions between Jack and Gimmetoo/trow. It is clear that Gimme is the one being tendentious and unreasonable, and has indulged in hounding behaviour over a period of several months. Gimme seems to believe that he owns certain articles and interprets all disagreement on their content or presentation as a personal affront, and I'm sure I don't need to say that that is a totally unproductive and irrational attitude. It is also worrying that Gimme takes such delight in bringing up Jack Merridew's (very distant) past bad behaviour, as though it's prima facie evidence that Jack must be in the wrong now. That is quite obviously wrong too. I urge Gimmetoo to leave Jack the hell alone and stop being so precious. This is beyond tiresome. Reyk _YO! 22:26, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
  • Closed this, before Gimmetoo/trow finds themselves having a major issue. Blocking Merridew themselves would result in a desysop RFC. So don't do it. Black Kite (t) (c) 23:17, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

• Not resolved. Merridew went immediately to making similar inappropriate changes of style known to be controversial, in this case in direct violation of WP:CITE#Citation_templates_and_tools: " Because templates can be contentious, editors should not change an article with a distinctive citation format to another without gaining consensus." The edits in question are to Kerr and Andress. Merridew made no attempt to gain consensus, no post on the talk page, no attempt at discussion that I can find. Furthermore, his edit to Andress installed a bug in the table that Merridew ought to know about, because it was the content basis for the last ANI issue. (An issue which, by the way, Merridew misprepresents above; Merridew undid one of my edits, I started a discussion, and Merridew didn't respond.) And I noticed these because both Kerr and Andress are articles I have watchlisted, and that I've edited quite a bit, as far as I know long before Merridew ever edited them. (I've also edited the other articles Merridew edited: Bynes and Bullock.) It seems likely to me that Merridew is stalking me, especially given Merridew's documented prior stalking. Gimmetoo (talk) 05:28, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

• Seriously? The difference between this and this is what you are so flustered about? Removing some entirely redundant coloring is an "inappropriate edit" that gets you up in arms like this? --87.79.51.168 (talk) 08:09, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Storm in a teacup much? 160.44.248.164 (talk) 08:37, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Indeed. Looks like someone is suffering from a serious case of WP:IDHT and WP:BATTLEGROUND. Please stop for the good of the project. Thanks, FASTILY 17:17, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, but I think you're all missing the point-- we have policies and guidelines for a reason, and Gimme is following them. How about telling Merridew to move along and find something else to occupy his time with? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:00, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

The point is that Gimmetoo/trow is making it a habit of demanding blocks of editors who disagree with him when he doesn't get his way, has a major ownership problem with some articles, and refuses to listen to constructive feedback. Why should Jack "move along" when he's working for the good of the project and obeying policy and guidelines (indeed, helping to improve them) simply because an obstructionist doesn't like it? What needs to happen here is for Gimetoo to "let it go;" I hope that action will be taken against him the next time he makes one of these frivolous complaints.Bali ultimate (talk) 18:05, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Could you please explain your assertion that Jack is obeying policy and guidelines, when it is Gimme who is doing so? If Merridew doesn't like our citation guidelines, he should take his crusade to that page. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:14, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

The point is that there are other venues for resolution of disputes before marching straight to ANI. This page is not for yelling "I don't like what this editor's doing, please block them". This is why I've marked this resolved (twice). Black Kite (t) (c) 18:17, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

The explanation of how Jack is obeying policy and guidelines is that he's making articles internally consistent (and very often consistent with other similar articles as well). Consistency is a principle that overrules personal preferences. It is downright disruptive to complain about changing a reference like this: <ref>http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20414325,00.html</ref> to this: <ref>{{cite web|last=Oh |first=Eunice |url=http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20414325,00.html |title=Miranda Kerr: Yes, I'm Pregnant! - Babies, Miranda Kerr, Orlando Bloom |publisher=People.com |date=2010-08-19 |accessdate=2010-10-15}}</ref> and Gimme knows it. He's also aware that MOS:ENDASH documents the consensus that we should change dates ranges like "1987-1988" to "1987–1988" and Gimme knows that as well. He even knows how to fix the problem that his browser causes him, because I've taught him how to do it (add a sort key). It's about time that Gimme stopped obstructing editors whose only desire is to improve Misplaced Pages, and quit running to ANI every time he doesn't get his way, before the community loses patience with him. --RexxS (talk) 21:39, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Precisely. ANI is not here to play mommy. I also don't see anything wrong with Jack's edits as a purely practical matter. He removes redundant coding, an outright good thing. Policy is descriptive, not proscriptive as we say. It describes accepted community standards, not tells us what to do. We even have/had that wording on one of the policy overview pages, followed by 'it can and does lag behind community practices at times'. I think the lack of outcry and the frustration with Gimmetoo's hounding of Jack is fairly good evidence that the policy in question is starting to get behind the times. -- ۩ Mask 21:29, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

(od) Another editor tried to work things out with Jack once before but he managed to out last her. She retired from the project, see it here Wildhartlivie. I'm done for the night but I'm sure Jack can supply the many difs to the RFC and the projects who dealt with this. Have a good night everyone. --CrohnieGal 22:32, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

User:A Nobody also had frequent arguments with Jack Merridrew. A Nobody is now banned from editing. --Alpha Quadrant 23:21, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Irrelevant, and blatantly untrue.  pablo 00:01, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

There was obviously a big argument between the two: http://meta.wikimedia.org/User_talk:Rlevse --Alpha Quadrant 00:13, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

Bruce Forsyth, not run over by bus

Looking at the Bruce Forsyth article, I see several edits from IP addresses, all looking much like this diff, adding information on death today. I cannot find any news reports confirming this, and a look at Twitter shows only a couple of tweets about a rumour.

Perhaps this article could be semi-protected for a time until the situation is clear? --Pete (talk) 23:28, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Malleus Fatuorum civility issue

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

• Malleus Fatuorum (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Can a previously uninvolved admin please instruct Malleus Fatuorum (talk · contribs) not to use such language when commenting at my user talk page? Thank you, -- Cirt (talk) 23:34, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Why, what's wrong with it? And since when did admins get to "instruct" other editors?Parrot of Doom 23:37, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

You're looking for an admin who hasn't been the target of Malleus' blunt language? Good luck with that. Jclemens (talk) 23:39, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

@Parrot, if you actually read it, there was some cursing it. Seems that he is also has a nice block record of that also. I don't even see why he keeps getting unblocked early, but then again it isn't my issue.--iGeMiNix/What's up?/My Stuff 23:41, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

I had to read that three times before I understood it, but thanks for presuming I hadn't read something about which I was commenting. I think that says more about you than it does me. Parrot of Doom 23:53, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

@Parrot, Sorry, I left a note on your talk page. It is my fault for not assuming good faith.--iGeMiNix/What's up?/My Stuff 00:04, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

• You're on a hiding to nothing here. Using fuck as an intensifier is not inherently incivil. Even if it were, Malleus is immune to any criticism of how he speaks. → ROUX ₪ 23:42, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

@Jclemens, in that case, any admin other than myself stating such in a post to his user talk page, would be appreciated. -- Cirt (talk) 23:42, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

And why would I want to kick that hornets' nest? Any of us who've been around for a while know how Malleus conducts himself, how he responds to attempts to change it, and how effective the community is not at doing anything about it. Jclemens (talk) 23:46, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

I can't take action myself, but it's my belief that an RFC based on long-term incivility is well overdue. Nobody should be fireproof here, however well-connected they may appear to be. The break may well be when one's own supporters give up the ghost as being no longer sustainable. I'll leave it to others to decide that. Rodhullandemu 23:48, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

• Using "fuck" as an intensifier is inherently uncivil, in the context of our policy WP:CIVIL. I can't take action here either but accord with RHE that a RFCU might be the next step. --John (talk) 23:50, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Why isn't there a rule for long term incivility anyways? Knowing admins to unblock you ain't cool.--iGeMiNix/What's up?/My Stuff 23:52, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Because your version of civility might be different to another person's. Parrot of Doom 23:55, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

No, that isn't what the policy says. It says (in part) "A single act of incivility can also cross the line if it is severe enough: for instance, extreme verbal abuse or profanity directed at another contributor... can ... result in blocks without consideration of a pattern." I'd say this outburst is probably blockworthy in itself, when taken alongside MF's history, though it may be worth taking the context into consideration, something I have not (yet) examined. --John (talk) 00:00, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Problem is that, what happens if another admin just unblocks him?--iGeMiNix/What's up?/My Stuff 00:03, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Then another one will just block me again. It's happened before. What I continue to find curious is why so many admins like John are just slavering to find any reasn to block me, when I do far more for this project than they could ever dream of. Malleus Fatuorum 00:22, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Oh dear. That's just the arrogance that is anathema to this project, and is arguably the supposed source of your immunity. Contributing here isn't just the content you've provided, but I've also argued on several occasions that there are two dimensions to being here; content contribution and collegiality, and it is on the latter point that you appear to be missing the point. See above: "nobody is fireproof". You may have allies, for now, but that may not last. With great respect to your content contributions, a holistic and collegiate attitude might save you from perdition, but it has to be said that I don't see your usual acolytes flooding to your defence right now. Hmmm? Rodhullandemu 00:38, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Hmmmm is right. I'm just watching and wondering when someone is going to say anything about Cirt's long-standing approach to FAR. Oh ... Malleus finally did. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:26, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

For fucks sake, not this thread again. Out of pure curiosity, would it have been any better if Malleus had said "I believe that you don't have a bloody clue what you're talking about."? ɳOCTURNEɳOIR 00:19, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

I don't think so. There comes a time when to enjoy the picnic, you must swat the wasp. THis has been going on for far too long. Rodhullandemu 00:41, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Admins are neither the naughty words police, nor supposed to look away when casual abuse of other editors happens. Sometimes, the former becomes or is part of the latter.

A lot of thin skinned people are sensitive to naughty words, which is why we try to discourage them, and sometimes have to whack someone for using them. But we really need to focus more on casual or directed abuse.

Malleus (if I may paraphrase some years of familiarity) seems to believe that naughty words never transgress into outright abuse, and has a higher threshold for what's abuse than the community writ large. The community does not as a whole agree with that, hence WP:CIVIL and various editor abuse blocks that have happened and will undoubtedly happen again. There is an ongoing debate about where the line should be.

IMHO - Malleus put the first foot "wrong" but the two of them were starting to engage in a bit of mutual combatantry there. The wrongness was into the grey area but not across the line in a clear manner, and was clearly more of an exasperated utterance than a focused intentional insult. These are not good, but "admins are not the naughty words police".

With that said - Malleus, please knock it off. Cirt took it as a personal attack. You're pushing too hard when people react to you that way. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 00:44, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Cirt didn't take it as a "personal attack" at all, he saw it as an excuse to have me blocked again, along with his mate Rodhullandemu. A rational personal looking at the circumstances, should one ever be found amongst wikipedia's administrators, might even conclude that the incivility was on Cirt's part, even though he didn't actually use a naughty word. Malleus Fatuorum 00:53, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Then why did he come here for an opinion? And I specifically deferred blocking you, or whatever, to an RFC. I'm amazed that you have any idea what a "rational person" may think, given your history, but, I do urge you to read our article on paranoia before take one step further forward. As I read it, your credibility here is rapidly going down the drain, and that isn't up to me; it's up to you. So fix it. Rodhullandemu 01:03, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Haven't you read the start of this thread? He didn't come here for an opinion, he came here to ask someone to admonish me. Go on, block me, you know you want you. I bet you're hovering that button even as we speak, and you're probably not alone. Malleus Fatuorum 01:07, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

• No thanks. When I see a rich source of the comedy of ridicule enfolding, there is no way I am going to stifle it, because professionally, I can use it. You go full steam ahead. I've been asked for another draft script, and the richness of this is beyond price. Rodhullandemu 01:13, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
  • The "rich source of comedy" I see is clearly not the same one as you see. Malleus Fatuorum 01:23, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Oh my effing god, he said "fuck". I am so offended. Yworo (talk) 01:11, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

MF gets shlepped here so often, they're considering naming the new wing after him. Actually, the offensive part was saying that the other editor didn't have a clue. That's equivalent to calling him an idiot, which at one time here was considered uncivil. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 01:17, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Bugs, you dirty so-and-so! Your mother was an elderberry and your father smells of hamsters! HalfShadow 02:08, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

This thread's feeling much bettah! Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 02:10, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

MF is blocked for 12 hrs, not for the original comment, but for the responses here. notification on his talk page

The responses here were not ruder or more abusive, but they did constitute a denial that anyone would legitimiately take offense at his language and behavior. Whether Malleus' viewpoint on civility is right or wrong, he is aware that he's operating at the outside edge of community norms here, and knows what those norms are. To do so in the honest belief that those norms are wrong - and I don't for a minute doubt his beliefs - is not wrong. But anyone operating intentionally and knowingly outside community norms cannot reject the effect that those actions have on others, or abandon responsibility for the offenses caused.

It would be one thing to say "I did not intend that as a personal attack", which I think is true. It's another to say "...and nobody could take it as a personal attack, and it must be other hostile motives," which Malleus did. Obviously people can take it as a personal attack. Most of the time they won't - but when they do, it's an editors' responsibility to acknowledge that and take responsibility for it.

Counterattacking, by denying that anyone could be offended and questioning motives in the complaint, IS a personal attack.

Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 01:45, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Malleus never said such a thing as "...and nobody could take it as a personal attack, and it must be other hostile motives," (certainly not those exact words, and their spirit doesn't seem to be in his words either) and your suggestion that he did may be among the more problematic behaviors here. I've unblocked him. Ucucha 01:48, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

The exact quote above, responding to my first comment, is:

Cirt didn't take it as a "personal attack" at all, he saw it as an excuse to have me blocked again, along with his mate Rodhullandemu. A rational personal looking at the circumstances, should one ever be found amongst wikipedia's administrators, might even conclude that the incivility was on Cirt's part, even though he didn't actually use a naughty word. Malleus Fatuorum 00:53, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

That's an explicit denial that Cirt did take it as a personal attack, and a claim that nobody should have.

Furthermore, as I noted on your talk page, except in cases of obvious gross error, administrators are supposed to seek a noticeboard consensus and/or discuss with the blocking administrator prior to issuing an unblock. You failed to do either here. While the behavior and block are clearly the subject of some community dissent here, there is considerable administrator and experienced editor support for there being a problem of some magnitude above, which rules out "obvious gross error" and voids the excuse to simply wheel war the unblock rather than make any attempt to discuss first.

I'm fine with undoing it if consensus here develops against me; I'm fine with you undoing it on your discretion after talking it over. I'm not fine with this unblock; it violated policy which is there for a good reason. Please revert until discussion has had time to reasonably happen here. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 02:00, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Would there be any possibility of having a discussion about Cirt's involvement at FAR and his/her "editors' responsibility to acknowledge that and take responsibility for it"? Perhaps we need to institute a "take it to the talk page first" rule to prevent the demoralizing delist, delist, delist trend furthered at FAR by Cirt. Someone was bound to speak up sooner or later, and since it happened to be Malleus, of course we have another blockfest. A good deal of the advice being given to MF might be applied to Cirt. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:54, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Mild agree - see prior comment about mutual combatantry. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 02:02, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Thanks! So, does Cirt consider the affront to Malleus to be called "lazy" considering how much Malleus does for so many articles, content review processes, and other editors? So, just who was uncivil? Cirt is a prolific "delist, delist, delister" at FAR, and the tone isn't always conducive to all this collegiality we're asking of MF. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:06, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

I can't see any further purpose in this thread. Let's close it.--Wehwalt (talk) 02:03, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

• Comment, late in the game Malleus Fatuorum's use of vulgarity on an editor's talk page is wildly inappropriate. It violates WP:CIVIL and likely WP:NPA. Basket of Puppies 03:03, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
• My comment is obviously late as well, but I just got back online. Of course his comment was inappropriate and rude. That's what Malleus does. Everyone should know that by now, and just be prepared to get over it. It's obvious he's not going to be blocked for anything, as his content contributions are enough to overshadow everything else in the minds of enough admins to render this a waste of time. He was blocked for fifteen minutes before it was overturned, which is still long enough to make that the longest block of his last three. This isn't even worth trying to fix anymore. Dayewalker (talk) 03:16, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Going again

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

• Hard to add much to what I said here: I admire MF's contrarian spirit, but struggle with the logical incoherency of being against civility but complaining when he perceives that others are uncivil, which seems to be his position. I also regret the pointy disruptiveness of his methods. Whatever folks think about the merits of MF's campaign, I imagine I am not the only one who tires of the trail of drama which this talented editor seems to continually leave behind him. Really at this point there's little else to say short of a RFC/U, as it seems unlikely MF will moderate his behavior which causes offense, as he feels his content work exempts him from the rules the rest of us have to try to follow. --John (talk) 03:24, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
  • You have no idea what I feel, and I can't even begin to imagine why you believe that you do. My position is very far from the one you describe; I have explained it to you and many others in the past, but very few seem to have either the intellectual resources or the integrity to understand it. You have never seen me complain about the incivility of another editor, except in your dreams. What I have repeatedly complained about is the inequality in the application of the civility policy in particular to administrators and non-administrators. Any fair-minded person could easily take the view that it ought to have been Cirt who received the block, as his behaviour at FAR has been disruptive for some time now, but as he's an administrator that just gets ignored. Malleus Fatuorum 14:23, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
    • "In the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make." :) ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 15:40, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
    • Here's where you expressed the view that your content work makes you exempt from following civility rules. This wasn't very hard to find; you are complaining about the incivility of others (although you do not use the word), as recently as 30 September. You can't have it both ways, you know. You talk about integrity and intellectual resources; how about demonstrating them for us? --John (talk) 16:40, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
      • I can only assume that English is not your first language John, or at any rate not one that you have any real understanding of. Malleus Fatuorum 16:47, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
        • Since this appears to be going again, I will translate MF's post above. John has alleged that Malleus believes his "content work makes you exempt from following civility rules", yet the diff he provides shows no such thing. John also stated that "he feels his content work exempts him from the rules the rest of us have to try to follow", which is simply not true-- in my experience, Malleus is actually quite humble about his prolific work, not only on writing FAs, but on helping others write them, and he never plays that card. It does appear that there is a problem with John's English, yet Malleus has been blocked again for stating that (Malleus is some kind of a block magnet). In fact, MF's point is quite simple: a double standard exists when it comes to Malleus versus what admins can get away with, and admins are frequently far more uncivil than Malleus has ever been (John might recall a post he made once to Ceoil, another FA writer). Since I seem to be another magnet for abuse, whereby anyone can say anything anytime anywhere about me without consequences, I'm becoming increasingly sympathetic to his position (at the same time, I acknowledge my appeciation that John actually did something about the last attack on me). The recent block was unjust: John, was it really necessary to ignite this again after the section was archived? Please try to take greater care when making statements about other editors that are just not true. I also continue to note that nothing has been said about Cirt's participation at FAR, which warrants attention and is what started all of this. Oh, and the sooner y'all can let Malleus get back to work, the sooner the FAC backlog can be addressed; we've got work to do, and that is why we're here right? Malleus was doing that at FAR before the tangle with Cirt. SandyGeorgia (Talk)17:45, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
        • @SarekofVulcan: I might understand your block of Malleus if the standards were the same for everyone as they are for Malleus. I have some examples. I was once told to "fuck off" in plain view of multiple admins and several arbs, yet the offender received narry a warning. I am routinely attacked on my talk page, and there are rarely consequences. The attack on Ceoil I mentioned above was far worse than anything Malleus has ever said, but nothing was done. And every time lately that I bring a serious issue to AN/I, the same offenders poison the well here with grossly disparaging and false accusations about my character and editing, yet nothing is ever said or done. Of course, those untrue statements about me are never accompanied by diffs, because there are none that back up the attacks on me. Malleus simply points out the truth-- different standards are applied to different editors, and because he states that often, he has become a block magnet, while I remain an abuse magnet. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:58, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
          • I don't recall calling MF a troll on September 30 or any other time, but my memory is not perfect. I don't know why I would characterize MF as anything besides MF. There have been many editors that thought wikipedia couldn't survive without them. Nearly all of them have been wrong so far. :) On the other hand, some folks get way too excited over name-calling. Content is what matters here. When anyone throws obscenities at you, they can't harm you, they can only harm themselves, as they reveal that at heart they are low-lifes. Don't feel anger. Feel sorrow, and wonder what happened to them to make them so hateful. Pray for them. Someone needs to. :) ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 18:05, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
            • Exactly right, but for two things. 1) This begs the question of why Malleus is always blocked for lesser offenses than routinely occur on this very page. 2) Sticks and stones may break my bones, but because words don't hurt me, and I "take a licking and keep on ticking", the offenders continue, and article content is affected by the poisoning of the well, as admins take no action. It's high time for admins to start paying attention to the inequities, and start blocking truly uncivil and disruptive editors instead of Malleus, since he does at least contribute content, while many of them don't (and that is me tooting Malleus's horn, not to be confused with the inaccurate accusations that he does that). Ec for Black Kite-- again begs the question, since a double standard applies, and the "fuckwittery" routinely occurs right here, right under the noses of multiple admins, who always act when it's Malleus, but rarely act when it's not. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:12, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
              • It does seem that Malleus makes himself a lightning rod and does nothing to try and improve the situation. It's a matter of what bothers you, I suppose. I don't care what somebody calls me. There are far greater problems on wikipedia than name calling is: POV-pushing, edit warring, vandalism, endless fights over stupid stuff like whether to include a comma in an article title - all those things are the bugaboo of a site like wikipedia, and it's the kind of stuff that makes people not trust wikipedia. Editors calling each other names behind the scenes is well down the critical list. Complaints about a double-standard are technically fair complaints, but in real life we often put up with a lot from people who are productive. Life is a bowl of tradeoffs. In fact, Malleus has not suffered anything from all this. If an admin gets annoyed and blocks him, he'll be unblocked ASAP. Truly useless editors who do the same stuff are sent to the phantom zone in a heartbeat. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 18:21, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
                • ah, but now you're really missing the point :) The POV-pushing, edit warring, etc is allowed to continue because bringing important matters to this page results in the offending editors launching attacks, for which there is no retribution while admins turn a blind eye, yet MF is blocked for trivialities. I'd love to see the editors who routinely make far worse attacks on me on this very page blocked when I'm trying to address POV-pushing and edit warring. Of course, I recognize admins have much more fun fighting over Gimme and Malleus, for the drama factor, while taking on true POV pushers and disruptive tendentious editors would be like ... real work. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:28, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
                  • I do see what you're saying. I was just now, for the first time, taking a look at MF's rap sheet Malleus Fatuorum (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and I was amazed that he's still here. Most guys with that many blocks would have been gone long ago. So I don't see what MF has to complain about. If anything, he's been given a lot of latitude. You might also be onto something about admins sometimes standing at the side of the rink and watching a couple of guys slug it out for awhile. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 18:43, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
                    • Generally, if more of them would let something unfold and be sure they understand it before taking action, that would be a good thing. Instead, they block some editors quickly, without understanding the buildup or issues, while ignore much more significant issues on this very page. There is a double standard in play here, MF points it out, and it does affect content work and productive editors. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:48, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
                      • No one is forcing MF to be uncivil, he chooses to do so. If he doesn't like the consequences, he has the option to change his behavior and still be an effective editor. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 19:09, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
                        • It would be a travesty of logic even to suggest that your comments exhibit double standards Baseball, more like at least triple or quadruple. I could make a very good case that you and John have been far more uncivil than I've ever been, yet you choose to try and occupy the moral high ground. I don't know what you call that where you live, but I sure as Hell know what it's called where I live. Malleus Fatuorum 20:25, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
                          • Well, here you are, freed from yet another block, so it's pretty clear who benefits from a double standard here. :) ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 20:33, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
                          • P.S. Can you show me where I called you a troll? I don't remember doing so. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 20:50, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

• The main issue that is that the obvious presence of a large amounts of fuckwits editing Misplaced Pages doesn't mean that we need to point out their fuckwittery in such clear language, as it should be obvious anyway (and equally clearly, this is a general comment and not related to any of the parties involved here). Let's face it, if we'd all felt the need to do that when we first started, we'd all have been indeffed anyway. Black Kite (t) (c) 18:09, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Well I'm late to the party as usual but what I see is a number of supposed adults snarling at each other but some of them have baseball bats and at a certain point in the snarling competition use them. I used to think MF was being somewhat paranoid, defensive but I'm really beginning to wonder. Baaaad block. There are other ways of being rude than using naughty words. For the avoidance of doubt - ownership of a baseball bat does not constitute a moral high ground. Fainites scribs 20:37, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Poor block, worse discussion, though I got a few laughs here and there.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:49, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Despite the entertainment value, they really need to stop dragging MF here every time he gets mad at somebody. Name-calling is harmless unless it's accompanied by disruptive editing. Thick skins are good. :) ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 20:53, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

• Anyone want some popcorn? It's butter toffee... HalfShadow 21:03, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Let's at least try and get the facts straight before this goes into archive oblivion. I never called anyone names, that would be your mate Cirt, who called me lazy. What I said was "I don't believe that you have a fucking clue what you're talking about", which I stand by. What is clear at least to me is that Cirt was the uncivil one, but I was punished for using a naughty word that GWH doesn't like, and then the saintly SarekOfVulcan came along to rub salt in the wound.

I actually think that Jophn's idea of an RFC might be a good idea, but not for the reasons that he does. Malleus Fatuorum 21:13, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Nothing is going to to change here because the likes of GWH and SofV don't have a effing clue as to what is really going on and that's the way it has always been.  Giacomo  21:18, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Or, as some might say, "an MF-ing clue". :) ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 21:22, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

• • MF claimed I called him a troll, but he won't produce a diff. I've got a good mind to contact Mr. Hungadunga and get him on the case. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 21:19, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
    • You mistake "won't" for "can't be bothered to", as I know that producing it for you won't make a blind bit of difference to anything that's going on here. Prove me wrong and tell me what would change if I provided that diff? Malleus Fatuorum 21:38, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
      • I would improve my behavior. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 22:25, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
      • Well, ya got me stumped, son. At one second into Sep 30, you posted this statement claiming I had called you a troll within the last 24 hours. I checked my entries for the 29th and the 28th, 48 hours back, and I don't see it. So either (1) it was farther back than you recalled; or (2) it didn't happen. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 22:50, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
        • So far as I'm aware I am not not your son thank God, so please try to keep your comments on track. In what way would your behaviour be changed if I were to produce that diff in which you called me a troll? Malleus Fatuorum 23:27, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
          • Sorry, I had been channeling Senator Claghorn for a second there. (But as far as paternity, one never knows about these things, does one?) This is pretty much moot, since I really doubt there is a diff that you can produce. But if there is one, then first off, I won't do it again; and second, I'll entertain your top 5 additonal suggestions for improvement. Provided they're G-rated. :) ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 23:39, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Removal of verifiable information on the Ani article

Two days ago, an IP user deleted, in two separate edits, a large chunk of verifiable information from the article on the medieval city of Ani. Here, he removed a block quote and its accompanying source; and over here, he removed the introductory line preceding the block quote. According to a message left on the talk page of the IP, that information was supposedly restored, but after two days it still has not been re-added. I would do the edit myself, except that a topic-ban regarding this field prevents me from doing so. If it is not too much to ask, can a responsible editor re-add said information? Thank you.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 01:22, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

You could always re-add it yourself? Also, if you want to have the page semi-protected, you should try asking at WP:RFPP. One possible outcome of such a request could be that the individual IPs are warned, or possibly blocked if they have been repeatedly warned. If they have not be warned, then warning is always a good first step. Just some thoughts. Thank you. 64.128.201.49 (talk) 02:08, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

I re-added it. Good luck Marshall! Reaper Eternal (talk) 02:24, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Thanks buddy. I appreciate it.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 02:31, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Can someone put an end to this?

Here I am, reading Misplaced Pages in the local cafe, and the new messages light pops up. So, I go to my talk page, and read the warning, which is over a year old. Realizing that as I am working on a shared IP, that this message is certainly not intended for me, nor is intended for the other current users of the IP, I replaced the message with the standard shared IP template. The next thing I know, the new messages lights up yet again. What do you know, my edit has been reverted. I remove the message again and leave a message on the editor's talk page explaining the issue. While I am in the middle of adding this message, bang, the new message light pops up again. What do you know, I have been reverted yet again. Isn't there a policy against this sort of thing? (1) A user removing a warning from his/her talk page is indication that the message has been read, and there is no need to revert it, (2) A warning on a shared IP page that is years old certainly does not need to be re-added again and again. It is extremely unlikely that this is the same editor. I am afraid that IPs are just not treated with the same respect as users who log in. I was actually about to log in when I got the new messages light, and I was simply trying to clear the warning since it clearly did not apply anymore. Thank you. 64.128.201.49 (talk) 01:55, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Good grief, I just made a mistake. Another user has already pointed me to wikipedia:DRC. Not knowing that policy was why I had asked another user to remove his warning off my talk page (he made a mistake). I did not know I was allowed to remove my own warnings. I am only human. Thank you. Reaper Eternal (talk) 02:07, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Okay, then this is closed? Somewhat ironic (or hypocritical) considering that you are frequently blanking your own user talk page. 64.128.201.49 (talk) 02:09, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Oy vey. I'm just going to mark this as resolved. RE was acting in good faith, and most users are surprised to learn that IPs are allowed to clear warnings from their own pages. Seems counterintuitive. No harm intended, no drama needed. Sven Manguard _Talk 02:11, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Thanks Sven. And FYI, I only restored the comment once, as can be seen from the history in the IP's talk page. I had messed up my edit somehow and then fixed it. Also, according to the history, you complained here right after I did it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Reaper Eternal (talk • contribs) 02:16, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Disruptive Edits

I have noticed that User:Shyguy1991 has been repeatedly adding every concert to appear at particular venues across the world. They have been asked several times to cease and desist by several editors. Yesterday, the user took a strange turn and started deleting entire concert content from several pages. Some of these that they did delete do need some paring, but not to the point of deleting the entire content. I consider this to be disruptive editing. So I am asking that something to be done to stop this. Here are the diffs that I have noticed, in the last 50 edits the user has made:

Credit Union Centre Westfalenhallen Nippon Budokan Royal Dublin Society Colston Hall Scandinavium Valby-Hallen Philips Halle Wiener Stadthalle Orpheum Theatre (Boston, Massachusetts) Tower Theatre (Upper Darby, Pennsylvania) Poliedro de Caracas Brandt Centre Verizon Wireless Arena Times Union Center FedExForum Events at Madison Square Garden

There are likely countless other examples of this. However, these are just a few that have been deleted. Shootmaster 44 (talk) 02:56, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Note: I fixed a few of the links for you. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 02:58, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Not only are these laundry lists way too long, but there is generally not a single reference. I don't have a problem with this editor removing these long lists that they've added because they should not have been there in the first place on the articles I've seen, but the editor refuses to respond on any talk page (including their own) and never uses edit summaries. Alanraywiki (talk) 03:36, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

It has been clearly demonstrate that that Shyguy1991 has possibly not fully understood Misplaced Pages policies and/or how to implement them. Blatantly removing every informal request or warning template from their talk page within seconds does not remove them from history, even if they believe it does. On unfolding the history it will become clear that they either need help, or that they simply do not wish to be part of the community. Either way, if their edits really become disruptive within the interpretation of our rules, or if they still refuse to provide ES for their hundreds of edits, then a procedural block will be the only answer. --Kudpung (talk) 05:14, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

I doubt it's that the user doesn't understand Misplaced Pages policies. Based on the user's behavior and edit patterns/habits, it's more likely that the user doesn't care. I know we're supposed to assume good faith, but this user's behavior, at least to me, indicates that the behavior is/was intentional. Somehow, I stopped this user from adding more performers to his long list in Staples Center. But he has continued on a bunch of other articles. -- Gmatsuda (talk) 10:28, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Threat of suicide

here. Access Denied  03:23, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Please do not revdel the threat. Access Denied  03:25, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Suggest to the user that he not leave a mess and get on with your life. HalfShadow 03:27, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

A CU needs to call the police and give the guy a reality check. That's all. /ƒETCHCOMMS/ 03:28, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Just ignore, troll Secret 03:30, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

We can't risk it. May also be related to Sebdog69 (talk · contribs) (see Trollwikiday's now-RevDel'd edit on Pepsi). /ƒETCHCOMMS/ 03:33, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

I don't see a suicide threat, also I saw the original edit of Pepsi Max while I was doing some vandal fighting, I was beat by the revert and placed the editor on AIV Sebdog should be blocked. Secret 03:37, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Nevermind I see it first sentence. Someone should tell him to calm down, I 100% sure he's lying look at the username he wanted to be blocked. But a checkuser scare should make him stop trolling. Secret 03:39, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes, he just emailed me saying "that it was all a bit of a prank" and that he was not serious in regard to the suicide. I don't think it was ever completely serious, but it doesn't hurt to err on the safe side. Now, though, it's probably not worth bothering about. /ƒETCHCOMMS/ 03:58, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

A suicide threat is not something to joke about. Access Denied  04:07, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Tell that to the editor. Allmightyduck  What did I do wrong? 04:09, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Sigh. Whatever happened to don't feed the trolls? Looie496 (talk) 04:22, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

"Nummy, nummy!" Contacting the authorities in this case as a real suicide threat? Not necessary... Doc talk 04:33, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes, but lets do it anyway. The resulting medical bill ought to be large enough to keep this troll from joking about this ever again.--*Kat* (talk) 04:59, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Slap a {{Suicide response}} template on his page somewhere, and let him get on with celebrating "International Troll Misplaced Pages Day". He wouldn't really "off" himself, because then he would miss out on the "festivities" he's alluded to... Doc talk 05:16, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

How likely is a user calling himself "Trollwikiday" to be sincere about anything? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 15:26, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Look. Lets short circuit the usual nonsense. There are a set of editors who feel that most suicide threats on wiki are attempts to troll editors and do not invoke some responsibility to call the authorities. There is another set that feels every threat is a potential loss of life or health (since many failed suicide attempts result in permanent damage). If see a reasonably credible threat, post it here, DONT delete it and someone will contact the authorities. But agitating one camp versus another is pointless. Protonk (talk) 18:55, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Is there a policy on this kind of thing, or is it handled on a case-by-case basis? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 19:06, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

I don't know. If there is a policy it should be WMF handling it, not joe admin. Protonk (talk) 19:10, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Seems like every time one of these seemingly external problems come on-wiki, everyone starts to sound like Scarlett O'Hara: "Where will Ah go? What will Ah do?" Maybe this is a question for Mr. Wales? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 20:06, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Eh. I'm of two minds. first, google "WP:TOV" and see what the top link points you toward. That should give you an idea of how intertwined these threats are w/ trolling. Second, I really do think this is the sort of thing best left to people with @wikimedia.org email addresses. There is only so much I am willing to do for WP, and firing off emails or calling local PDs is not high on my list. I have no idea what the law says (or which jurisdiction is appropriate). The police have no reason to believe that an @gmail.com address is a good contact point. And I'm unwilling to bear the risk, however small, that someone didn't want their suicide threat to impact their professional life and sues me for reporting it (this is a bit intertwined with the law bit, but worth mentioning by itself). So the present equilibrium where concerned editors forward this sort of thing to checkusers is probably fine for those users, but if the WMF wants to get serious about handing cases like these, they ought to step in and hire someone who doesn't have all of the reservations that a volunteer editor might have. Protonk (talk) 22:24, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Just for any of the editors above who are not aware of it or did not refer to it before acting or commenting, and perhaps more relevantly, for anyone else reading who might have to deal with potentially more serious instances in the future, there is an essay on this, at WP:SUICIDE --Demiurge1000 (talk) 22:34, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Death threat

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Benjamin_Breeg_%28Person%29&action=historysubmit&diff=390816883&oldid=390816799 216.93.213.191 (talk) 03:44, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Why was the page deleted? The authorities need to be able to see this. Access Denied  03:47, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

WP:CSD#G3. I do think it should be undeleted for now, though. Allmightyduck  What did I do wrong? 03:48, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Credible threats should be reported. If you feel this threat was credible then reply here. I do not, and apparently neither did the admin who deleted it. I have indef'd the account though.  7  03:50, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

No, we do not undelete death threats, under ANY circumstances. If the authorities wish to know exactly what was posted, then that is an administrator's job to email them with said information. –MuZemike 03:53, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

I missed something? If only I had some power tools--I made that talk page, explaining why I nominated the article for speedy deletion as a hoax. But I have two mean, mean dogs to protect me. You'd be surprised at how terrifying a Miniature Schnauzer can look in the middle of the night. Drmies (talk) 03:55, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

True... as I think about it, that could potentially be bad PR in the future. Allmightyduck  What did I do wrong? 04:01, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Buy yourself a Spaniel. Anybody comes to the door/window, that dog is sure to pee immediately - and bad guys hate stepping in dog pee on the way into the house. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 11:44, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Does that mean that erstwhile good guys will be tempted to break into your spaniel guarded house because, due to the Laws of Inverse Property, they delight in stepping in dog pee? LessHeard vanU (talk) 12:50, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict)x2 I'm the admin who deleted the page. I'm not sure that the threat was on the page when I started to delete it—the edit and the deletion are both time-stamped 03:44 UTC. If I had noticed it, I would have brought the matter here. — Malik Shabazz /_Stalk 04:02, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

I'd like to comment here ... don't worry about the authorities being able to see the threats, when they're notified. I assure you, the appropriate authorities know pretty well how to get in touch with the Foundation, and we will work with them to provide any information they need, within the guidance of our legal counsel. Let's not ever assume something SHOULDNT be deleted so that the police can see it - it's a better thing to assume that they'll know how to find us and see it. Thanks... Philippe Beaudette, Wikimedia Foundation (talk) 18:44, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

TungstenCarbide again

TungstenCarbide XXXI (talk · contribs) Can someone add this guy to the title balcklist? Access Denied  04:36, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Not sure that will help. He'll just start naming his accounts something else. --Jayron32 05:00, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Rather than blocking the creation of the account, could an edit filter block him from editing? (Almost serious. ) — Arthur Rubin (talk) 09:20, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

User:Xanderliptak, redux

Xanderliptak (talk · contribs)

I saw this edit on my watchlist, and reverted it, as I see no reason for the removal.

I then looked at his contribs and saw a problem. He is systematically removing all images he has uploaded to Commons from use here, and has requested speedy deletion of same on Commons (which cannot obviously be dealt with here; I included this detail merely for background). Not wishing to create intense drama, I have not reverted the latest edits; I believe this is symptomatic of behaviour that has been going on for quite some time. (See also, from almost a year ago, very similar situation). Namely, this user appears to be labouring under the misapprehension that he gets to control use of images he has created after he has uploaded them. Beyond that I cannot speculate as to motivation.

I am honestly not sure what the course of action here needs to be. This is clearly problematic, and repeated, behaviour. User has been notified. → ROUX ₪ 05:29, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

I jut came across this through a page on my watchlist. I note that Xander and Roux have some history, so I thought I would, as an uninvolved party, concur with Roux's reading of the situation. As it happens I think the one example of an edit that Roux provides is not a good one because (for unrelated reasons) that content should not be there. But the broader issue still stands. hamiltonstone (talk) 05:34, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

The edit I provided is simply the one I ran across first (I use a hack on my watchlist to only display changes since the last time I loaded the page, then scroll to the bottom and work my way up). There were other edits, but seeing that there was a pattern I refrained from reverting them all and instead brought the issue here. Agreed that the specific first edit I provided can and should be discussed on the relevant talk page; the general issue is what needs to be examined here. → ROUX ₪ 05:42, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm aware of the past history; Roux has suffered quite a bit of abuse in this interaction. I would say Roux is correct that there is a behaviour issue, but I've also seen XL change behaviour when approached the right way. The core issue currently seems to be a licensing dispute. Gimmetoo (talk) 06:04, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

To be clear I did not attempt to discuss this with Xanderliptak, as discussion with him has proven to be less than fruitful. I figured better to gain the attention of uninvolved people. → ROUX ₪ 06:16, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

The images he uploads to Commons are freely licensed. The licenses are not revocable. So we can use them, whether he wants us to or not. /ƒETCHCOMMS/ 12:56, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

That was the core issue that came up a few days ago. Presumably Xander figures if he can't get what he wants, then he'll delete them and then nobody can have what they want. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 15:24, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Don't presume tell people what I want. You showed up late to a discussion and tried to talk about things that the discussion was not even concerned about. Again, you are here talking about issues no one else has even brought up. XANDERLIPTAK 17:22, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Roux reverted the edit here: and when Hamiltonstone complained on the talk page, Roux explained his rationale here: I don't see any need for this board, but rather, discussion should begin on the article talk page. Xandarliptak is as free to edit, and be bold as any other Misplaced Pages editor. Every edit he makes that Roux does not agree with cannot be brought here. It should be on the article talk page.Malke 2010 (talk) 16:39, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

See below. You have clearly not paid any attention to what I wrote or what is happening here. → ROUX ₪ 18:59, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

What is this ANI even about? People complain about the images in the article, I have to argue to keep them in. More people complain, so I take them out. Then those that wanted them out complain I take them out? What kind of logic is that? What is all the Commons talk and "we can use them even if he doesn't want us to"? I was the one always arguing to use hem, ROUX and others were saying we should not. I just finally gave in and said take them out. ROUX should have been happy. Side note, I did get what I wanted on Commons. ROUX and Beyond My Ken were trying to pull up past arguments, but Commons ignored them. The Commons issue had nothing to do with using or not using images, but about what the licensing summary being deficient. XANDERLIPTAK 17:18, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

That was on one article where the inclusion of unsupported elements was the nature of the dispute, not the inclusion of the coat of arms in general. 'All this Commons talk' is merely, as I said, background; you are attempting to have images which you freely and irrevocably licenced deleted, an issue that will be dealt with on Commons. I never tried to pull up past arguments on Commons, because I did not make a single comment on Commons; once again you appear to be unable to comprehend that you must provide diffs of alleged behaviour and not merely say whatever you want. This ANI is about approximately thirty instances of you removing images you have created from articles where they very clearly belong. The same images you are attempting to have deleted. The same behaviour you engaged in nine months ago (discussed here, you may also wish to see your own talk page to refresh your memory). → ROUX ₪ 18:59, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

It is hard to tell what you really want, since you change your story so often. :) But why all this excitement over drawings of family crests and such? This ain't Rembrant stuff, you know. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 17:53, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

The better question is why is Roux following Xanderliptak? And why is Hamiltonstone claiming he got here from his watchlist when everybody can read this exchange for themselves:

I do not understand why there is any information about the Kennedy coat of arms on this page, which is about the surname, and serves as a disambig page for people to locate relevant Kennedys as subjects of WP articles. Move it to an article called Kennedy (coats of arms) or to the pages relating to relevant individuals or families, but surely get it off this page? hamiltonstone (talk) 05:23, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Resolved – There is nothing here S.G. _ping! 10:13, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Even for ANI this is too pointless; find something productive to do, please. Looie496 (talk) 19:16, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
I am concerned about Nableezy Most of this editor's work is in the Israel/Palestine area. On his user page he openly advocates violence. http://wikibias.com/2010/10/who-edits-wikipedia-part-ii/ His language openly supports the right of "all individuals and groups" to take up guns, bombs and rockets and kill innocent people. I think that it is inappropriate for an individual with thee views to edit on Israel and Palestine pages.Andycarr78 (talk) 16:26, 15 October 2010 (UTC) We can't really do anything to some one for having views like that, but we can do something if you have provide Diffs of civility violations or threats toward an individual. Or some context to what you complaint is about. I would general agree with the statement above depding on the context as every one does have the right to defend them selves but its all context The Resident Anthropologist (talk) 16:32, 15 October 2010 (UTC) Even from that biased source, you can distill the correct statement. It says: “This user supports the right of all individuals and groups to violently resist military aggression and occupation by other parties." The biased source then goes on to explain that the "correct interpretation" of this statement is as follows: "This statement justifies Hamas rocket attacks on civilians, the massacre of Israeli children on school buses, and the bombing of the Oklahoma city federal office building". This looks bit similar to me to how Obama's health care plan became a plan to euthanize senior citizens. Count Iblis (talk) 16:43, 15 October 2010 (UTC) Oh please, this junk again? If you don't know the history...IIRC this goes back a very long time to a user named Embargo (talk · contribs), whose user page had varying versions of; File:Flag of Hezbollah.svg This user supports the Islamic resistance. on it, the above being the most recent and mild. Unfortunately, even this still was never good enough for Embargo's wiki-opponents, thus he eventually left the project. Nableezy's current tag appears to be a much milder takeoff on this old one, with the links as a form of protest. Nowhere in it does it actually link to Hezbollah as Embargo's did, which was generally the crux of his problems, and I don't give two shits what some half-baked conspiracy site like wikibias.com has to say about affairs on the Misplaced Pages. Tell em to get bent. Tarc (talk) 16:46, 15 October 2010 (UTC) Andy Carr, do you have any reliable sources for these assertions? --Orange Mike | Talk 16:49, 15 October 2010 (UTC) Are we really saying that users are not responsible for the content of their userpages unless quoted in a wp:RS? The idea seems preposterous. Or did Orangemike mean that we need an RS to be able to tell that the userpage is full of advocacy? LeadSongDog come howl! 17:29, 15 October 2010 (UTC) I think Orange Mike was looking for a cite for "take up guns, bombs and rockets and kill innocent people." That part seems absent from Nableezy's userpage. TFOWR 17:41, 15 October 2010 (UTC) Nothing to see here IMO. Mo ainm~Talk 16:52, 15 October 2010 (UTC) Andycarr78, wikibias.com ? Really ? That's where you get your information about editors ? ...and your 9th edit to Misplaced Pages is an ANI posting ? Jeez. At the very least can an admin officially notify Andycarr78 about the discretionary sanctions and log it please. Sean.hoyland - talk 17:25, 15 October 2010 (UTC) Innit Wikibias about as believable as Fox News? HalfShadow 17:34, 15 October 2010 (UTC) HalfShadow, that is an ignorant comment. Additionally, there is no need to defame Fox News in this discussion.--William S. Saturn (talk) 19:22, 15 October 2010 (UTC) That's right. There are plenty of other opportunities out there for defaming Fox News. In fact, it's like shooting fish in a barrel. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 19:44, 15 October 2010 (UTC) I'm more concerned that we may have defamed wikibias by comparing it to Fox. Tarc (talk) 19:46, 15 October 2010 (UTC) I'm glad my one userbox is supporting a cause far more cut and dry than this one... come on, can we drop this now? The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 18:23, 15 October 2010 (UTC) The irony of this is that an Israel supporter could post essentially the same assertion as is being complained about here - because in Israel's eyes, they are under attack from all directions, and hence they feel justified in using violence to protect themselves. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 18:31, 15 October 2010 (UTC) I think it is a terrible userbox. It advocates violence while also it was also created to make a point and stick it to other editors. It is some sort or "protest" against the decision sometime ago. He has been asked multiple times to remove it. He won't and people rally to his defense. Baseballbugs and I are on the same page since I have recently created a Cute. Kind of the Galactic Empire philosophy. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 18:47, 15 October 2010 (UTC) The trilogy Galactic Empire or the prequel trilogy Galactic Empire? HalfShadow 18:49, 15 October 2010 (UTC) Whichever trilogy it was where the Empire was ruled with an iron fist yet 50 or 100 of its soldiers at a time couldn't hit a stationary target, and where it was eventually defeated by clumsy dwarfs in furry suits. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 19:00, 15 October 2010 (UTC) Since people are so busy whining about "users supporting violence", I find it a bit curious that nobody has brought up userboxes like these: This user supports the troops in Iraq. This user supports the troops. Surely these are every bit as big of a problem as banners supporting the other side of the conflict, no? Or is it only a particular type of violence we advocate on Misplaced Pages? Why don't you all bugger off, and stop wasting everyone's time trying to cause problems for an editor whose politics you don't agree with? -- Jrtayloriv (talk) 18:50, 15 October 2010 (UTC) "Bugger off? Uncivil, Jrtayloriv. Vastly uncivil.Andycarr78 (talk) 18:59, 15 October 2010 (UTC) ..and saying someone said "kill innocent people" when they didn't is what, moderately impolite, not cricket, frowned upon ? ..man. Sean.hoyland - talk 19:08, 15 October 2010 (UTC) I fully advocate violence against userboxes in general, as my own page states. Let's get back to more important matters now, like Star Trek episode articles. Tarc (talk) 18:57, 15 October 2010 (UTC) Supporting one's troops is not necessarily the same thing. Although maybe the editor would get less flack if he would take a more positive approach, by posting a yellow ribbon and saying, "I support the Palistinian troops." ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 19:00, 15 October 2010 (UTC) There is a vast difference between advocating the right of any individual with a grievance to take up a weapon and murder someone, as Nableezy does. And advocating the right of a legitimate government to use police and military forces to prevent violence or in self-defense. Civilized people call this distinction civilization. The difference lies in the right of individuals to from a legitimate government to protect themselves and their families from violence. And in the fact that governments, police and armies in well-governed states operate under rules that limit the use of violence and protect the security of persons. Under the rules of Nableezy's UserBox, any individual who claims that a government is illegitimate can pick up a gun and murder any other individual. Or blow up the Oklahoma City federal building. That way lies the disintegration of civilization into a world of violence.Andycarr78 (talk) 19:07, 15 October 2010 (UTC) The problem in the Israeli situation is that each side is firmly convinced they have the moral high ground, and neither is strong enough to defeat the other. Violence is not exactly new, you know. Peace doesn't necessarily come from deciding to get along, it often comes from conquest. And when you've got a situation like in the middle east, a stalemate, it can only get uglier over time - until someone finally wins, or they get tired of fighting, which can take a long, long time. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 19:14, 15 October 2010 (UTC) (edit conflict)I think that anyone that advocates any view as the theme of their user space should be kept away from dealing with it in article space. User:Nableezy happens to have devoted his/her entire userpage to pro-palestine text and images. Therefore it calls into question his/her ability to be neutral in palestine related manners. Same thing for the other side. One "I support the Red Sox" userbox shouldn't bar a person from editing the red sox, but a whole page with quotes and images should. Sven Manguard Talk 19:17, 15 October 2010 (UTC) (ec3)As I've said before, I love it how both sides have chosen Misplaced Pages to be a battlefront within the larger Middle East conflict, and think that creating or deleting other user's userboxes actually matters in the grand scheme of things. I created my own in the wake of Embargo's railroading, in fact. Tarc (talk) 19:19, 15 October 2010 (UTC) WP:NOT#FORUM would seem to cover it. User pages are not a good place to advocate one side of a battleground issue or another. Where the advocacy is uncontroversial or unchallenged we let it slide as a reasonable exercise of self-expression. It's a fallacy to say that because we allow some, we have to allow it all. Having a POV doesn't disqualify anyone from editing articles, they just have to abide by the rules and work with other editors to create a neutral article. Advertising a POV or adopting controversial userboxes doesn't disqualify you, it's just not the best way to encourage collaboration and goodwill. - Wikidemon (talk) 20:00, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Resolved – Talk page access disabled by Tony Fox ~ mazca 20:31, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Resolved

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