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You can email me from this link but in the interests of Wiki-transparency, please message me on this page unless there are pressing reasons to do otherwise. Comments which I find to be uncivil, full of vulgarities, flame baiting, or that are are excessively rude may be deleted without response. If I choose not to answer, that's my right, don't keep putting it back. I'll just delete and get annoyed at you.

TS clerking

Doug, you warned me, but I'm not "doing", I'm "undoing". Tony Sidaway has been collapsing sections for several days now based on his reading of relevance, and he's an involved editor in this case. He needs to stop clerking this case and leave it to the arbs and clerks themselves. ATren (talk) 12:46, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

We asked involved editors to do thinks like mark stuff OT. We hoped that the contributors themselves could manage the page. I also suggested hatting. The appropriate thing to do if you objected to any specific response to my request would be to either note it on the talk page or on my talk page, not revert it. Dougweller (talk) 12:53, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Really, where was this request made? I was not aware of it. In any case, don't you think it's a bad idea to have involved editors determining what is relevant? ATren (talk) 13:02, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Dougweller: Please stop TS from clerking. Multiple people have complained. You may want to investigate prior history. TS was a clerk himself quite some time ago. No longer. If you cannot or will not stop TS from clerking, please do not complain when others undo his inappropriate actions. ++Lar: t/c 13:03, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Here is an example of the problem. ChrisO started a section complaining about MN, but anyone who commented was hatted, including Minor4th's response to direct accusations from ChrisO, and my own note (not "bickering") that MN had spotted and acted upon the BLP vio that WMC had tried to add to Monckton. If editors like ChrisO can add sections making accusations, then responses which address those accusations (or the editors accused) should not be hidden. This selective hiding from someone who is clearly a party to this debate is inappropriate. ATren (talk) 13:14, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

I presume neither of you have looked at his talk page. He's been given more or less the same advice I gave to ATren. And it was an arbitrator who originally made the suggestion. Dougweller (talk) 13:25, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

I looked at his talk page. I left him a request to stop clerking. Are you going to take action? I didn't see a request from you, or anyone else, of the form "please stop clerking" but Tony removes stuff vigorously. Please ask him to stop and then enforce it. ++Lar: t/c 14:15, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

An arbitrator wrote "Given some of the tensions arising, rather than collapsing off-topic discussion, could you simply mark anything you consider as such for the attention of a clerk or arbitrator? That might help reduce the tension." before your post to his talk page. What more do you want? ? Dougweller (talk) 14:20, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Here you go: "Please stop clerking." Full stop. What that arb wrote was so equivocal it didn't actually read like a warning to me. ++Lar: t/c 16:05, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Then complain to him. I see no evidence of a current problem. If there is, note it on the talk page. Don't start reverting. It will be dealt with if it's deemed a problem. Dougweller (talk) 18:06, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

A simple request to stop clerking is what's required. If you don't see why Tony's manipulation of sections is problematic then I don't know what to tell you. ++Lar: t/c 22:55, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Lar doesn't seem to have read my recent statement addressed to Carcharoth on my talk page. --TS 20:03, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

I read it. It just didn't seem to address the direct requests you've received not to clerk. So I didn't treat it as particularly relevant. ++Lar: t/c 22:55, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Then we will just have to disagree. TS seems clear about this, I was told by an Arb that what I said was sufficient, it had all stopped before you raised it, and there is nothing to enforce. I don't think TS is stupid enough to continue to do this (and he was doing it in good faith I believe), but if he does then he'll be stopped. Dougweller (talk) 05:29, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

!Vote at PD

Please let me know if the change I made is acceptable. I don't want to be out of line. Thanks. GregJackP Boomer! 15:15, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, but actually I think you should just remove it as otherwise it might look as though you changed your mind and oppose, are neutral, etc. Just your bare comments please. Thanks. Dougweller (talk) 15:26, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

K GregJackP Boomer! 15:29, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Christopher Monckton, 3rd Viscount Monckton of Brenchley

I have absolutely no interest in the climate change fiasco, but coming from a BLP stance, this article clearly is biased - containing OR, selective quotations etc. I'm not quite understanding why you've reverted to a problematic article and protected. I realise there's an ongoing arbcom case (I've no dog in that fight), but we normally remove problematic BLP material pending consensus, we don't protect it until inhouse processed are complete. A quick glance at the case, and it seems to me this is precisely the type of BLP that's been a victim of agenda-pushing.--Scott Mac 15:34, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Didn't I revert to the version that had been protected by SirFozzie? Dougweller (talk) 15:37, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

OK, I'll look again.--Scott Mac 15:40, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes, you did. I guess I'm concerned that that version isn't great. I mean boxes with choice quotes in them, designed to make the subject look like a nutter (which maybe he is, ymmv, but still) and OR concerning what claims are still on a website "as of", were just the sort of bad stuff I saw at a quick glance. Hm, what to do. Remove the protection and we have an edit war. Don't and we have a bad BLP. What I'd like to do is ban anyone who editing it before yesterday from working on it, and get a few BLP folk who've no interest in CC to do a re-write. Maybe what we need is an emergency BLP team who are authorised to put up temporary articles while arbcom ponders the wider issues - alternatively the article should be stubbed pending agreement.--Scott Mac 15:47, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Scott - thanks for commenting on this. I think either idea of yours is good. This was actually the point of my notice on the BLP notice board was to get some BLP editors who arent involved in CC and look at the article from a neutral perspective. If you can get a group of folks together, great, I'd say edit through the protection to remove BLP violations or stub it under protection -- anything is better than having all the BLP vios protected in the article. Minor4th 17:31, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Interesting idea, but as a clerk for the case it isn't appropriate for me to actually get involved with the article. Email Arbcom? (and I mean email) about the specific problem? Dougweller (talk) 15:56, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Seems a rather clumsy way of doing what I routinely do, removing unfair stuff from BLPs. I really don't want to get involved in the CC fiasco...sigh.--Scott Mac 15:59, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps an uninvolved admin such as your self, Scott, could note that they are going to edit through the protection on talk, then stub out anything remotely problematic. Better that the article be gutted temporarily than that BLP violations remain. ++Lar: t/c 16:09, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Many of the BLPs in this topic area suffer from severe problems after years of unchecked agenda-driven editing. In this particular case, there was an ongoing dispute about a specific issue and SF locked it on the "least bad" (per BLP) version regarding that particular dispute. But "least bad" does not make it good, because there were other areas that were also problematic, though at least the self-published critical presentation was protected out. I agree with Lar that perhaps aggressive stubbing under protection is advisable, at least until the close of the arb case (when, hopefully, the problems that led to the state of these BLPs will be resolved). ATren (talk) 16:36, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

This is a particularly difficult BLP and I think it might benefit from a stubbing. On one hand he presents himself as an "honorary" member of the House of Lords. On the other hand officials in charge of the Parliamentary seal have asked him to stop using a coat of arms resembling it and those in charge of the House of Lords have stated unequivocally that there is no such thing as an honorary member, and he's not a member and has never been a member of the House of Lords. On the science, there is a similar, even more humiliating story. Getting consensus on the details within the context of our BLP needs patience, but it could perhaps be done if the article was started from scratch. --TS 21:25, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

I've stubbed the CC section.--Scott Mac 23:00, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Your comment

Hi, you commented here. I'm going offline now so I don't have a moment to take care of this. Feel free to just remove with my permission. I have nothing there that is that important. Thanks for letting me know. I just iVoted because there was one there and I wanted to make sure my opinion as an outsider was known. Thanks again, --CrohnieGal 15:44, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

I just want you to know that I didn't have to leave due to rain so I removed my comment as you requested. Sorry, I didn't know I shouldn't be doing this. Thank you for allowing me the opportunity to fix what I did wrong. Now I know not to do this. I know you are very busy so I'm thrilled that I got to tend to this and didn't have to make you take your time to fix my error. Have a good day, --CrohnieGal 16:06, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. I really appreciate it. I was lucky myself, the rain stopped here and I could walk my dogs. Don't worry, there's no reason you should have known it was inappropriate. Dougweller (talk) 20:59, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

No problem, much appreciated. I have a cat, no walking, just a box, so no worries at least about that when it rains. :) If I comment anymore and make an error, feel free to make adjustments that maybe needed. I don't get offended about things like that, life's too short. ;) You take care and stay dry, --CrohnieGal 21:31, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Voting on CC PD discussion

I went back and looked at the section where you told me to remove my vote. I note that there are several editors there who have "voted" on varioua proposals, but it seems you only advised me and Greg and Cla68 to remove our votes. Am I mistaken? If not, why would you only make that instruction to a handful of editors and not everyone who voted? Minor4th 18:08, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Who have I missed? If you'd read the comment at the bottom of my talk page (just above yours), you'd see another editors I asked. I may well have missed someone inadvertently. I advised 8 people. Dougweller (talk) 18:12, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

LOL nevermind -- I see you did advise others, they just ignored you. I do think you missed Stephan Schulz and there may have been more voting since you left the messages. In fact, there's quite a bit of voting taking place. Minor4th 18:14, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

I just got a note from Dougweller on the voting situation. I was just doing what everyone else was doing, but I think he's right; "voting" is not appropriate. ScottyBerg (talk) 22:45, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Wis

Thanks for noticing Wis's recent personal attack against me at Talk: The Political Cesspool and warning him about it. I looked through his edit history and found that he has a long history of posting inflammatory statements about Jews and Arabs on article talk pages; I posted links to some of them here. The fact that he would accuse me of being a "raving splc zionist" comes as no surprise given his previous behavior. Stonemason89 (talk) 19:57, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Comment

Pls comment here: Talk:Christopher_Monckton,_3rd_Viscount_Monckton_of_Brenchley#Very_disappointed after my 21:36 post. Tks. — Rlevse • Talk • 21:37, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Ruggero Santilli

Hey there, Globalreach1 back for more abuse. I have spent much time looking at the history and Santilli on Misplaced Pages and I think I know why he is such a lightning-rod for posts lacking neutrality from pundits (fuscilla) and editors (rubin) alike. There seems to have been a pattern from both parties of totally one sided comments. I am working through them now and have made some progress with your support, thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Globalreach1 (talk • contribs) 14:28, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Hi Doug,

Hey Doug, i just got your message. I'll try and address your concerns because i do not think the article i created in question should be deleted considering its huge archeological importance to Ecuador. Im new to Misplaced Pages and ive tried to follow all the rules ive read so far, so im sorry if ive inadvertantly broken any.

I started writing the Punay article about five weeks ago or so and kept the draft on my userspace page until i thought it was of high enough quality to post, i wasn't aware there was a way to get someone to proof read it. To write the draft i not only spent considerable time looking at the format of similar archeological sites and trying to replicate them, reading the article development turotials, but also trawling through obscure and popular Ecuadorian websites in Spanish and translating it into English.

The photo i took myself and released under the creative commons, i hope to upload more of my photos of the pyramid soon including ones of the desecration of the pyramid, its really sad that because the Ecuadorian Government does not have the money to promote tourism to the temple and protect it we have people (mainly poor farmers in the surrounding villages) going to the temple and digging holes in it in hope that they can find gold and artifacts they can sell on the international black market.

So much has already been robbed from the pyramid and we really have no idea how to save whats left other than trying to increase an awareness of its existence on sites like wikipedia and sacredsites.com in the hope that the increase in international awareness will make the Ecuadorian government realise its importance and invest the money to excavate and protect the temple. Had any similar desecration happened in Egypt or Macchu Picchu there would be an international outcry but unfortunately this place is not as well known yet (as i wrote in the article it was only discovered in 2002)

with regards to the conflict of interest, you are right there, i am an australian living in ecuador working for the non-profit volunteer agency www.ecuadorecovolunteer.org which has close ties with the ecotourism agency www.ecuadorecoadventure.com, one of only two companies that take people to the pyramid and protect it from grave robbers because the government has not yet stepped up. i am only one person, Jake Ling, but i can see the wisdom in using my real name instead of the username ecuadorecoadvice because its more professional, i have worked as a journalist in australia and i really enjoyed writing this article and hope to develop it further more information becomes available. I'm assuming by talk pages you mean the one that says 'Discussion'? Do i just put Ecuadorecoadvice (talk) 19:29, 30 August 2010 (UTC)Jake Ling and nothing else?

in one of my very last edits of the article which i made today i can see the conflict of interest, ill quote it:

"In 2003 Eudoro Flores the former mayor of the nearby city of Chunchi was noted as saying "If you want gold, go to Puñay" but added he was impelled to promote the place for tourism to help its conservation and prevent grave robbers from further desecrating the site. In 2010 Audrey Rose Goldfarb of Portland Oregon in conjunction with the ecotourism company Ecuador Eco Adventure took the first camera crew to Puñay as part of a documentary on "The Hidden Secrets of Ecuador" to promote the pyramid as a site of great archeological importance to help protect it from further desecration. The documentary is currently in post production. "

i added "in conjunction with the ecotourism company ecuador eco adventure" today along with the photo i uploaded (i had written the majority of the the article about three weeks ago) now while i believe that this company that has been trying to protect the pyramid deserves a bit of a pat on the back for their efforts you are right that it creates a conflict of interest. i believe however there is nothing else i wrote in the article that is biased other than that sentence, should we delete everything from: "In 2010 Audrey Rose Goldfarb of Portland...." onwards to preserve the non-partisan nature of the article at least until the documentary has been released and is available for download? neither Audrey or ecuadorecoadventure will mind, they dont even know i wrote this wiki yet.

i hope i have made myself and my intentions clear and that you will reconsider deleting this article and i look forward to contribute to the wikipedia community in the future :)

cheers, jake

Ok, I can see you've tried hard. We have this thing called 'notability' and our criteria are at WP:NOTE. Now at the moment, I can find no evidence that it passes our criteria there. That might change upon the release of the documentary if that gets sufficient publicity, but do I gather that it isn't being broadcast? And the problem with that is that it is being produced by the ecotourism company that will profit from this. Plus, I've seen no evidence from any archaeological publications that there is a pyramid there at all, and that's a big problem. Is there anything published in Spanish about this? Sources don't have to be in English.

As for the deletion, what happens is that there will be a 7 day discussion where editors can comment and !vote (which means 'not vote' although they can say Keep, Delete, or sometimes Merge. These aren't the same as votes because whoever comes along at the end of the day to close the discussion will look at the policy and guideline based arguments to help them decide the outcome. And note what I said - the decision, and the arguments, should be made on the basis of our guidelines and policies. This often doesn't happen, people argue that it's notable because of its uniqueness, for instance, although that's nothing to do with our policies and guidelines, or because it's interesting, or perhaps here important to the local economy, none of which should be reasons for keeping an article. I won't be involved in making the decision or deleting it. You also need to look at what we expect in the way of sources, see WP:VERIFY and WP:RS. In the case of something archaeological, we'd expect the sources to be archaeological, preferably journal articles, etc. As the article is clearly promotional right now, be prepared for people to say that and edit it accordingly. And remember to sign your posts with 4 tildes. Dougweller (talk) 20:12, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Hey Doug,

i believe there wont be a problem with this article reaching notability, it is one of (if not the) biggest archeological finds of the decade, if you already checked out most of the references i put on the article they lead to big Ecuadorian news sites like http://www.explored.com.ec/noticias-ecuador/el-punay-guarda-los-secretos-de-la-edad-de-la-tierra-170286-170286.html

here is the spanish and english translation: "arqueológicos en la cima del cerro Puñay, en Chimborazo, podrían ser los más antiguos del país." - ENGLISH: archeological remains on the peak of the mountain Punay in Chimborazo could be the most ancient in the country.

"Las pirámides truncadas que se descubrieron anteriormente formarían parte de un gran complejo en forma de una guacamaya (animal mítico de la cultura Cañari)" ENGLISH: the truncated pyramids that were discovered were once a part of a great complex in the form of a Macaw (sacred animal to the Cañari)

from another big ecuadorian site: http://www.hoy.com.ec/noticias-ecuador/el-cerro-punay-si-fue-un-centro-ceremonial-186113-186113.html

"De acuerdo a la investigación, la pirámide sería una de las más grandes del mundo y con la particularidad de encontrarse en la cima de una montaña, -- ENGLISH: "Its true that in the investigation, the pyramid may be one of the biggest in the entire world with the peculiar attribute that it is found on the peak of a mountain"

"sus dimensiones son gigantes. Tucumera (Señor de Sipán), que se encuentra en el Perú, es considerada la más larga del planeta, y el Puñay lo supera con 120 metros más" -- ENGLISH: "the dimensions are giant. Tucamera (Sir of Sipan) that is found in Peru is considered to be the largest on the planet, this Puñay surpasses it by 120 meters"

--- So i hope the people who do review this are able to read the Spanish references, because in my opinion one of the biggest pyramids ever constructed by human beings on the planet is somewhat notable and worthy of wikipedia :)

---

with regards to the documentary, i know that the film Audrey has just completed (different to the documentary) is being shown in cinemas in Portland Oregan, i have no idea if the documentary will be broadcasted or not. but that doesn't matter as ive already deleted that paragraph to persevere the non-partisan integrity of the article.

---

if i have seven days before its up for review ill endeavor to search the 12 pages of results on google for Puñay to find more info thats from news outlets instead of tourist blogs etc, and ill ask around at the University Politecnica of Chimborazo which did the original excavations and measurements about any hard copy archeological findings that surely must exist somewhere offline.

thanks for the advice, time to get researching ;)

````jake ling —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ecuadorecoadvice (talk • contribs) 21:11, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Doug is Omniscient

Doug, thank you for your omniscient judgments on Misplaced Pages... Stevenmitchell (talk) 01:04, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Dear Freind

If possible a little about not confirm link Give me explain

Tx Eni Kazemi

Amodio: Lombards

I guess he changed the numbers of the Lombards from those of the primary source (Paulus the Deacon) to those esitmated by modern historians (as Jurgen Jarnut), and the same in the other voices, probably one should explain to Amodio how to edit correctly the voices with appropriate references and explanation of his reasons Cunibertus (talk) 09:59, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

just checked his other edits, and some of them are really far less evident and justified assertions, as you already noticed Cunibertus (talk) 10:06, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Puñay Pyramids

On my talk page, you state "the article is promoting a commercial site, which is why I removed the links", but that is not what you said in edit notes at the time of making the edits: you cast doubt on the very existence of the feature in your editnotes. The article has evidence from a government department and a tertiary education institute. Apart from anything else, leaving the links allows people to contribute to the AfD discussion, which seems desirable: isolating the article under discussion can only impoverish the input to the decision. Kevin McE (talk) 10:00, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Not evidence, a claim from a tourism regional director and lecturer in tourism, and I presume by government department you are referring to the article about the Minister of Tourism, but that mentions a temple, not a pyramid. I was planning to restore the links if the article passed AfD, meanwhile we should not be linking to an article which is both promoting a private company and a probably false claim. Dougweller (talk) 11:07, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

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WQA

Well, I'm sorry that's turned out the way it has. I really hoped James would follow my advice and it wouldn't escalate further. The thing is, I had this exact conversation regarding sourcing and communication with him back in February, so it's not like this is a new issue.--Cúchullain /c 15:18, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

No, and I suspect he's not going to reply at WQA. As I said, I'd decided not to do anything until I saw his latest accusations on his talk page. And if you looked at the AfD, he's convinced that our notability guidelines don't apply to anyone except minor singers, etc. I hadn't realised how little he actually understand Misplaced Pages, which is worrying. He suggests on his talk page he may stop editing. Dougweller (talk) 18:58, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

It's unfortunate he decided to ignore the good faith advice of several different editors, and instead continued on making unfounded accusations. I agree that he's unlikely to respond to the WQA, and if he returns to editing it seems unlikely to me that these same problems won't recur. It's too bad.--Cúchullain /c 18:19, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

CC spillover

HI, I guess this edit (and most of the history of that particular article) is a spillover from the CC case. I'm not really following that, but I thought I should bring this to the attention of a sysop familiar with that case. --Crusio (talk) 23:00, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Ok, thanks. I think your reversion is in line with our guidelines. Dougweller (talk) 05:24, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Climate change

As a former clerk, one of the first draft, I don't envy you. A few days ago I remarked on the then-obscene size, at over 400kb, of the discussion page on the climate page arbitration proposed decision, and made a couple of suggestions to alleviate the problem.

Since then the page has doubled in size. This will continue.

Would it not be feasible to split the discussion into structured subpages? I think it would have been better to do so much earlier, so perhaps in this arbitration case it isn't going to happen. But perhaps bear it in mind for future cases that may turn up (and I hope you don't ever run into a more controversial case than this). Careful consideration of case page structure may pay dividends. --TS 23:07, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

Endorse edit summary and neologism-phrase "structured subpage":

• div 23:07, 31 August 2010 Tony Sidaway (47,074 bytes) (→Climate change: Careful consideration of case page structure may pay dividends.)

This analytical perspective attracted my interest. I'm also attracted to the term "dividends" because it implies "investment" in a context of dispute resolution. --Tenmei (talk) 00:16, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

ITSNOTABLE votes

Apart from the one noted at ANI, the obvious one is Steelhaven which is currently at DRV. Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Nemesis (Transformers) fooled an admin until a bit of meatpuppetry was pointed out to them. There's a few more on the go at the moment, which I'm keeping an eye on. Black Kite (t) (c) 20:50, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Hell-on-Line

Hi, Just wondering why I can't make references to my own work? If I am the person who has complete bibliographies of this on my website, and it would seem useful to users. I've been working on this stuff for 30 years, and the website is based on a book published in the 1990s by Garland. Happy to do this as it should be done. Just let me know. Thanks. Egardiner0 (talk) 13:00, 2 September 2010 (UTC)egardiner0

I'm presuming you've read or real read WP:COI. At the least, you should note on article talk pages that you are doing that. That should help avoid any suggestions that you fall into the category "Where advancing outside interests is more important to an editor than advancing the aims of Misplaced Pages, that editor stands in a conflict of interest." Join in the discussion about using your link as an EL. All that will help prevent anyone reverting you for using your own work. Dougweller (talk) 13:09, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. I did check that page out (somewhat after the fact), but I will go back and make some notes about what I'm doing and why, and I'll be more conscious in the future about how I do this. Thanks for calling my attention to it. Egardiner0 (talk) 14:07, 2 September 2010 (UTC)Egardiner0

No problem - it's just that as you can imagine, we do have problems at times. Dougweller (talk) 14:27, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Request

Can you please take a look at this and if you agree, hat that divergent section off? ATren (talk) 15:59, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Just above where you hatted it, Jehochman stuck a comment in. Please throw that into the hat as well. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 17:06, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

The problem with hatting it is that my response to JWB's chunk-blowing has been concealed as well. If JWB's attack upon me is to remain, so should my response. -- Scjessey (talk) 17:22, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

I think everyone knows that it is a load of bollocks at this point though, don't worry. As I noted there, he did the same to me once before at AN/I but apart from a last-minute, invalid interjection from the later-desysopped Trusilver, the filing was closed as lacking merit. Tarc (talk) 17:27, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

(ec) Doug, in response to your note on my talk page, I have no intention of striking any attack on me from that page because, as I said, I want ArbCom to see those attacks. I think the proper response from the clerk and ArbCom members is to tell editors who make personal attacks that they must not continue doing that. Scjessey has every right to respond substantively to my evidence and argument against him, and I'll leave it to the authorities to figure out whether he's doing that and how to treat his statement. As far as I'm concerned, I'm willing to let that statement stand outside the hatted comments, and I think ATren's responses (and even Polargeo's first comment that ATren responded to) should be outside the hat. Alternatively, Scjessey could begin over and make a comment that defends himself while not violating a behavioral policy. I'd very much like to see civil responses to ATren's civil questions and points. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 17:36, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Fact check, my comment was in that position before the hat was added. Carry on, Dougweller, as you like. JWB, could you be a little more collegial. Misplaced Pages is not a game of Gotcha where you try to get other editors banned. The point is to help people, if at all possible, to avoid them being banned. Jehochman 17:53, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Jehochman, please review your comments at the GSCC RfE page complaints against me and ChrisO while keeping your 17:36 statement (just above) in mind. Evidence and a complaint isn't necessarily "a game of Gotcha" although your comments did look that way. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 17:59, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Just to make it clear, I wasn't simply responding to Atren, this would have happened anyway - it's no secret that we have a Clerk's mailing list and I was responding to a comment/request there. At least one arbitrator has seen this and the others will know about it. I'm not asking anyone to strike anything, just making it clear that while I don't expect anyone to add anything, I won't object to anyone striking anything, eg I wouldn't get upset if anyone struck comments like: "infamous"; "diff warrior"; "The hell you didn't"; "lunacy"; "attempt at revenge"; "superficially-civil POV warrior"; "nonsense"; "don't call them an "asshole" unless you like the taste of crow". Dougweller (talk) 17:59, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

If you're not going to move Jehochman's comment, I'm going to respond to it. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 18:02, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

I believe I tried to help you in the past, when you were known as Noroton. If you would like help now, just ask. Jehochman 18:09, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Why Jehochman, I just did ask you for help -- but you blanked my straightforward, sincere request. The help I need is that you reform your behavior. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 18:13, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

I have moved the hat, but since it should have been clear that I didn't want any more responses, I would have been very annoyed if you'd responded to Jehochman's comment without waiting a couple of hours. Jehochman, Scjessy, thank you for your edits there just now. Dougweller (talk) 18:16, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

I've resumed the discussion and assumed there wouldn't be any problem with the way I've done it. If I'm wrong, please explain why. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 23:04, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

user:Bgalleg and user:Cumanche

I saw your message on Bgalleg's talk page regarding my sock puppetry accusation. I've already posted a request at SPI. The editing patterns are identical. My theory is that the puppet master created the user:Cumanche account before the name change was denied and simply stopped using the user:Bgalleg account. Lechonero (talk) 16:17, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

I just checked the contribs for both accounts. Bgalleg made his first edit on Jan 20th, 2008 and on the same day requested a name change to Cumanche. Then Cumanche made his first edit on Jan 28th, 2008. I'm convinced this is the same person. Lechonero (talk) 16:26, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

So am I. Dougweller (talk) 17:01, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

That was fast, Bgalleg blocked, Cumanche warned. Dougweller (talk) 17:02, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Flood myth

When you are in a content dispute you should not be reverting labelling something as vandalism. Pico explained why he removed the section, it wasn't vandalism. Dougweller (talk) 07:16, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for your feedback. User:PiCo deleted a complete section in Flood myth compiled by many editors over the last three years or so, which incorporated some eighteen internal links, plus three footnotes, claiming that "there's not a single reliable source cited". If this not vandalism, what is? --Odysses (₪) 21:15, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Definitely not vandalism. He gave his reason based on policy. I see that done by experienced editors fairly frequently. We have something called WP:BOLD and a cycle calling for discussion we call WP:BRD. I strongly suggest you read those and WP:VANDALISM. Dougweller (talk) 04:35, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

2500th anniversary

Perhaps you'll say it doesn't follow Misplaced Pages rules or that I'm to sentimental about the issue, but should we put some header in article Battle of Marathon to mark 2,500th anniversary of that battle (till September 10)? It's kind of unique opportunity in lifetime. ;) --93.142.146.26 (talk) 00:01, 3 September 2010 (UTC)(Orijentolog)

Kabbalah and Judaism

haha good point! I think I'll write a separate article about Kab and Judaism. Because, although it has existed within Judaism, it's not a part of it. Judaism is a religion based on kabbalah. Thanks a lot for your help. Workin' on it together :) Lechaim66 (talk) 16:34, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

Lechaim is pushing his own POV which is beyond fringe. There is absolutely no scholarly support for any of his claims. Slrubenstein | Talk 18:33, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

So I gather. Should it be raised at a Wikiproject? I'm no expert on this, but it was obviously beyong fringe. He's been editing some biographies and I certainly don't know enough to know if those edits are correct. Dougweller (talk) 18:37, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

In some cases he is adding links - this is inoccuous enough. But I have not yet found his content to square with my knowlege o the field and he is not citing the major authorities - on Kabbalah, Martin Buber, Gerschon Scholem, Arthur Green, Daniel Matt, Moshe Idel, Betty Rojtmann ... a GREAT article will require contributors who know the works of these scholars and can cite them and use them in context. An edit that uses one of these people as a source is at least a significant iew. I do not know this literature, I just know these guys are the experts and if we had an article improvemenmt drive it would be by people using these sources. But Lechaim is not only not using these sources, and not providing sources, he is basicaly taking arcane claims made by the most fringe views and presenting them as truth. Feel free to cut and paste anything I wrote at Wikiproject. I think the article as it exists is actually prety good but the road to improvement would be including these shcolars' views, not personal fringe theories. Slrubenstein | Talk 20:43, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

User talk:Jmmyjam

I noticed you chimed in over at this talk page a few days ago. I've been trying to work patiently to explain this issue with Jimmyjam as well as a related issue of citing his new additions to the text. He rarely responds, usually only after I've left several messages. I don't think I'm getting through. We've already had one minor edit war, where we both reached 3rr. I took it to the Misplaced Pages:Content noticeboard#Pine Bluff, Arkansas to try and get some outside input several days ago, but haven't gotten any responses. I'm trying to avoid WP:ANI and work with this editor, as I realize they are relatively new and inexperienced with our editing procedures and policies. But per this note on my talk page ( I responded here on their talk) I think they may assume I'm just screwing with them. I dont want this to come off as my one man war against this editor and drive them from the project. Any help you could give would be appreciated, I believe they could be a valuable asset to the 'pedia. Heiro 00:22, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Harassment on my Talk Page

Please take a look at the harassment on my talk page by User:Viriditas. I am asking for action due to your being involved in the SPI in question and know that we were cleared. I would hope that you can warn him off this subject, and if that fails, block him for harassment. I am copying this message to several other admins on the Admins that make difficult blocks list - the ones that are familiar with the SPI and the situation. Regards,GregJackP Boomer! 05:35, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

1. Crossposting looks a lot like block shopping. Were I a clerk, I would be tempted to block you.
2. Where is the harassment? Could you post diffs, instead of spreading innuendo? Jehochman 13:28, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Gone?

Re . I've no doubt you've done the right thing, but it would be nice to know your authority for so doing. Personal email? IRC? I can't see any on-wiki evidence, though I could easily have missed it. I've put a section on the case talk page William M. Connolley (talk) 08:20, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

? I'm an ArbCom clerk, we have a list used by Clerks and Arbs. I was asked to do this by Rlevse, or rather any Clerk was asked to do this.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Dougweller (talk • contribs)

Confirmed. That's exactly what happened. Newyorkbrad (talk) 12:11, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. I have no doubt that what you did was done correctly, it is just that the removal of an arbs votes is quite a major thing to happen in a case, and people are going to ask why (or at least wonder, maybe I'm just more nosey) so I think it would be good to forestall speculation by clearly stating what was done and why. Also, there is no way to tell from the current PD that R's votes were once there and have been removed; and yet those votes (while they were there) may well have influenced discussion. So I really think there ought to be a note on the PD page with a link to the diff removing the votes William M. Connolley (talk) 12:57, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

This is being addressed (was in process before your comment). Newyorkbrad (talk) 13:00, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, yes, I see the votes are now back. OK, I'm totally confused - I'll just let this sort itself out instead of commenting further. Sorry for the confusion William M. Connolley (talk) 13:06, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Grave dancing

Is so unseemly. Could you please put an end to it? Jehochman 13:29, 5 September 2010 (UTC)