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faq page Frequently asked questions To view the response to a question, click the link to the right of the question. Family and religious background Q1: Why isn't Barack Obama's Muslim heritage or education included in this article? A1: Barack Obama was never a practitioner of Islam. His biological father having been "raised as a Muslim" but being a "confirmed atheist" by the time Obama was born is mentioned in the article. Please see this article on Snopes.com for a fairly in-depth debunking of the myth that Obama is Muslim. Barack Obama did not attend an Islamic or Muslim school while living in Indonesia age 6–10, but Roman Catholic and secular public schools. See , , The sub-articles Public image of Barack Obama and Barack Obama religion conspiracy theories address this issue. Q2: The article refers to him as African American, but his mother is white and his black father was not an American. Should he be called African American, or something else ("biracial", "mixed", "Kenyan-American", "mulatto", "quadroon", etc.)? A2: Obama himself and the media identify him, the vast majority of the time, as African American or black. African American is primarily defined as "citizens or residents of the United States who have origins in any of the black populations of Africa", a statement that accurately describes Obama and does not preclude or negate origins in the white populations of America as well. Thus we use the term African American in the introduction, and address the specifics of his parentage in the first headed section of the article. Many individuals who identify as black have varieties of ancestors from many countries who may identify with other racial or ethnic groups. See our article on race for more information on this concept. We could call him the first "biracial" candidate or the first "half black half white" candidate or the first candidate with a parent born in Africa, but Misplaced Pages is a tertiary source which reports what other reliable sources say, and most of those other sources say "first African American". Readers will learn more detail about his ethnic background in the article body. Q3: Why can't we use his full name outside of the lead? It's his name, isn't it? A3: The relevant part of the Manual of Style says that outside the lead of an article on a person, that person's conventional name is the only one that's appropriate. (Thus one use of "Richard Milhous Nixon" in the lead of Richard Nixon, "Richard Nixon" thereafter.) Talk page consensus has also established this. Q4: Why is Obama referred to as "Barack Hussein Obama II" in the lead sentence rather than "Barack Hussein Obama, Jr."? Isn't "Jr." more common? A4: Although "Jr." is typically used when a child shares the name of his or her parent, "II" is considered acceptable, as well. And in Obama's case, the usage on his birth certificate is indeed "II", and is thus the form used at the beginning of this article, per manual of style guidelines on names. Q5: Why don't we cover the claims that Obama is not a United States citizen, his birth certificate was forged, he was not born in Hawaii, he is ineligible to be President, etc? A5: The Barack Obama article consists of an overview of major issues in the life and times of the subject. The controversy over his eligibility, citizenship, birth certificate etc is currently a fairly minor issue in overall terms, and has had no significant legal or mainstream political impact. It is therefore not currently appropriate for inclusion in an overview article. These claims are covered separately in Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories. Controversies, praise, and criticism Q6: Why isn't there a criticisms/controversies section? A6: Because a section dedicated to criticisms and controversies is no more appropriate than a section dedicated solely to praise and is an indication of a poorly written article. Criticisms/controversies/praises should be worked into the existing prose of the article, per the Criticism essay. Q7: Why isn't a certain controversy/criticism/praise included in this article? A7: Misplaced Pages's Biography of living persons policy says that "riticism and praise of the subject should be represented if it is relevant to the subject's notability and can be sourced to reliable secondary sources, and so long as the material is written in a manner that does not overwhelm the article or appear to take sides; it needs to be presented responsibly, conservatively, and in a neutral, encyclopedic tone." Criticism or praise that cannot be reliably sourced cannot be placed in a biography. Also, including everything about Obama in a single article would exceed Misplaced Pages's article size restrictions. A number of sub-articles have been created and some controversies/criticisms/praises have been summarized here or been left out of this article altogether, but are covered in some detail in the sub-articles. Q8: But this controversy/criticism/praise is all over the news right now! It should be covered in detail in the main article, not buried in a sub-article! A8: Misplaced Pages articles should avoid giving undue weight to something just because it is in the news right now. If you feel that the criticism/controversy/praise is not being given enough weight in this article, you can try to start a discussion on the talk page about giving it more. See WP:BRD. Q9: This article needs much more (or much less) criticism/controversy. A9: Please try to assume good faith. Like all articles on Misplaced Pages, this article is a work in progress so it is possible for biases to exist at any point in time. If you see a bias that you wish to address, you are more than welcome to start a new discussion, or join in an existing discussion, but please be ready to provide sources to support your viewpoint and try to keep your comments civil. Starting off your discussion by accusing the editors of this article of having a bias is the quickest way to get your comment ignored. Talk and article mechanics Q10: This article is over 275kb long, and the article size guideline says that it should be broken up into sub-articles. Why hasn't this happened? A10: The restriction mentioned in WP:SIZE is 60kB of readable prose, not the byte count you see when you open the page for editing. As of May 11, 2016, this article had about 10,570 words of readable prose (65 kB according to prosesize tool), only slightly above the guideline. The rest is mainly citations and invisible comments, which do not count towards the limit. Q11: I notice this FAQ mentions starting discussions or joining in on existing discussions a lot. If Misplaced Pages is supposed to be the encyclopedia anyone can edit, shouldn't I just be bold and fix any biases that I see in the article? A11: It is true that Misplaced Pages is the encyclopedia that anyone can edit and no one needs the permission of other editors of this article to make changes to it. But Misplaced Pages policy is that, "While the consensus process does not require posting to the discussion page, it can be useful and is encouraged." This article attracts editors that have very strong opinions about Obama (positive and negative) and these editors have different opinions about what should and should not be in the article, including differences as to appropriate level of detail. As a result of this it may be helpful, as a way to avoid content disputes, to seek consensus before adding contentious material to or removing it from the article. Q12: The article/talk page has been vandalized! Why hasn't anyone fixed this? A12: Many editors watch this article, and it is unlikely that vandalism would remain unnoticed for long. It is possible that you are viewing a cached result of the article; If so, try bypassing your cache. Disruption Q13: Why are so many discussions closed so quickly? A13: Swift closure is common for topics that have already been discussed repeatedly, topics pushing fringe theories, and topics that would lead to violations of Misplaced Pages's policy concerning biographies of living persons, because of their disruptive nature and the unlikelihood that consensus to include the material will arise from the new discussion. In those cases, editors are encouraged to read this FAQ for examples of such common topics. Q14: I added new content to the article, but it was removed! A14: Double-check that your content addition is not sourced to an opinion blog, editorial, or non-mainstream news source. Misplaced Pages's policy on biographies of living persons states, in part, "Material about living persons must be sourced very carefully. Without reliable third-party sources, it may include original research and unverifiable statements, and could lead to libel claims." Sources of information must be of a very high quality for biographies. While this does not result in an outright ban of all blogs and opinion pieces, most of them are regarded as questionable. Inflammatory or potentially libelous content cited to a questionable source will be removed immediately without discussion. Q15: I disagree with the policies and content guidelines that prevent my proposed content from being added to the article. A15: That's understandable. Misplaced Pages is a work in progress. If you do not approve of a policy cited in the removal of content, it's possible to change it. Making cogent, logical arguments on the policy's talk page is likely to result in a positive alteration. This is highly encouraged. However, this talk page is not the appropriate place to dispute the wording used in policies and guidelines. If you disagree with the interpretation of a policy or guideline, there is also recourse: Dispute resolution. Using the dispute resolution process prevents edit wars, and is encouraged. Q16: I saw someone start a discussion on a topic raised by a blog/opinion piece, and it was reverted! A16: Unfortunately, due to its high profile, this talk page sees a lot of attempts to argue for policy- and guideline-violating content – sometimes the same violations many times a day. These are regarded as disruptive, as outlined above. Consensus can change; material previously determined to be unacceptable may become acceptable. But it becomes disruptive and exhausting when single-purpose accounts raise the same subject(s) repeatedly in the apparent hopes of overcoming significant objections by other editors. Editors have reached a consensus for dealing with this behavior: Efforts by established single-purpose accounts to introduce such poorly-sourced content will be summarily deleted. On the second such attempt, the source in question will be immediately reported to the reliable sources noticeboard for administrative assistance. New editors who wish to engage in discussions on previously rejected content are encouraged to ensure that their sources do not violate any of Misplaced Pages's policies and sourcing guidelines. Other Q17: Why aren't the 2008 and 2012 presidential campaigns covered in more detail? A17: They are, in sub-articles called Barack Obama 2008 presidential campaign and Barack Obama 2012 presidential campaign. Things that are notable in the context of the presidential campaigns, but are of minimal notability to Barack Obama's overall biography, belong in the sub-articles. Campaign stops, the presidential debates, and the back-and-forth accusations and claims of the campaigns can all be found there.

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Special discussion pages Article probation, Incidents Historical diffs, Weight, Race

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Archive 69: Religion

The consensus for that discussion was that Obama's religion is United Church of Christ. There was some support for Protestant. Christianity was not the consensus but a 3rd choice. Judith Merrick (talk) 19:38, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Are you saying the choices ranked 1. United Church of Christ, 2. Protestant, and 3. Christianity? I should point out that the United Church of Christ is part of Reformed Christianity ("Protestant"), which in turn is part of Christianity. This is almost like asking whether he's a human, a primate, or a mammal. The answer would be "All of the above"! The Mysterious El Willstro (talk) 06:26, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Given how sock-infested it was by JB5000/Gaydenver, there is no consensus that can be drawn from such a tainted discussion. Start anew if you like, but it really seems like a lot of quibbling over a minor issue. Tarc (talk) 19:46, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Sounds like Al Gore and those wanting a re-vote! If Gore were president, Obama would never have become president. Romney might be. Palin would still be an unknown governor. Judith Merrick (talk) 21:13, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Gaydenver was found not to be a sock of JB50000 but Tarc was accused of being a sock. Huh? It seems that the pro-Christianity people were quibbling over "a minor issue".

In terms of objectivity, Christianity's sources are SPS (self published sources) which are deemed unreliable. References show that he is United Church of Christ. Obama distanced himself from Rev. Wright, not the Church. Obama was on TV yesterday and he did not repudiate the United Church of Christ. He just doesn't go to church often but has designated Camp David as his church for now. Judith Merrick (talk) 21:10, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

As you yourself note, labeling him as United Church of Christ is potentially problematic, given some ambiguities on the issue. Better to just simply say Christian. Grunge6910 (talk) 22:26, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

And Christian is not potentially problematic, it is problematic. Putting Camp David church is just making things up and fiddling with facts. United Church of Christ is the most accurate and specific. If accuracy and specificity is not desired, then change his name to Bernard H. Obama II since that is almost correct. Bernard, Barack, very similar. Judith Merrick (talk) 22:58, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Got to point out how horribly flawed and fallacious your argument is; the United Church is at least part of Christianity. To compare Barack with a name which is nothing more than similar is absurd. Christianity might not be the precise answer, but it seems no one is completely sure what BO's true affiliation is, other than...drum roll...Christianity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.134.213.122 (talk) 08:42, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

Wrong, that was not the consensus. Also, the sock puppet investigation did not find anyone to be different people, in fact the conclusion was that they were either the same person or in close contact IRL. I would call that either sockpuppets or meatpuppets. While I appreciate the work done by the admins and CUs, it's unbelievable to me that you and the others listed are not either the same person or working to undermine Misplaced Pages together. In any case, it doesn't matter right now. All of your proposals were rejected and claiming 'consensus' when there is none is eerily familiar. DD2K (talk) 23:29, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Eerily familiar? "change his name to Bernard H. Obama II since that is almost correct" vs. "why don't we just say he's the president of a large North American country?" At the very least it seems like a couple of editors flunked the same Logic and Comprehension classes. Fat&Happy (talk) 23:48, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

This is pretty silly. United Church of Christ is a subset of Christianity. Saying that Obama is Christian is accurate if he belongs to any Christian church or denomination. The example about Bernard is totally irrelevant. The 888th Avatar (talk) 23:41, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Christianity is accurate and we shouldn't be more precise or detailed than that at this time without additional reliable sources. Technically, Obama is a former member of the United Church of Christ, see this correspondence, and the cited Associated Press article says as much: "The United Church of Christ, the denomination from which Obama resigned when he left Wright's church, issued a written invitation to join a UCC denomination in Washington and resume his connections to the church." Obama has not yet resumed his connections, so the UCC is most likely is, and will remain, his former denomination, yet these sources are not quite enough verification to assert that the UCC is indeed his former denomination, e.g. United Church of Christ (until 2008) added underneath Christianity. To do so, I think we may need additional secondary or tertiary sources that verify his break with the UCC as a consequence of leaving Trinity. --Modocc (talk) 17:39, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

So Modocc seems to be saying "United Church of Christ (until 2008), Christianity (2008-present)". This is honest. I'm not sure he quit the church, just the Trinity United Church of Christ so I was thinking United Church of Christ. But either one is better than Christianity alone, which is almost a coverup, shame on Misplaced Pages. Judith Merrick (talk) 23:36, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

No, Modocc seems to be saying his personal opinion is that "United Church of Christ (until 2008), Christianity (2008-present)" might be accurate but it would be improper to post that without clearer reliable sources.

"almost a coverup"? A cover-up of what? He's a secret Coptic or Gnostic? Fat&Happy (talk) 00:06, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Modocc isn't even saying that, he specifically stated at the beginning of his post that "Christianity is accurate and we shouldn't be more precise or detailed than that at this time without additional reliable sources". The editor(Judith Merrick that makes these leaps into "consensus" by completely ignoring real consensus does the same things over and over. The same exact leaps and muddying of issues that JB50000 had done over and over. I tried pointing that out in an official manner, and let the results be what they were. But this is just ridiculous. DD2K (talk) 00:49, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

I've had this discussion watched for some time, and I agree that User:Judith Merrick is another likely sock of User:Gaydenver / User:JB50000, so I've blocked him accordingly. Spellcast (talk) 19:41, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

I don't think it will come as a surprise that I totally agree with that assessment. DD2K (talk) 20:49, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Hasn't Obama self-identified as a Christian since at least as far back as when people started claiming he was Muslim (i.e., before the Wright hoopla)? Can't someone self-identify their own darn religion? I don't see why this is a big issue. Barring some unusual circumstance, he should be called whatever religion he calls himself: in this case, Christian.LedRush (talk) 21:57, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

:::::::::Crazy, if this easy point can be agreed upon, can we agree that Obama is a male? Willie Sutton Bank President (talk) 21:30, 21 April 2010 (UTC) (striking comments of banned sockpuppet)
It's amazing that you guys are squabbling about such a petty issue. He's a Christian, he's a Protestant, and he went to a United Church of Christ. It should be mentioned, however, that Protestant and United Church of Christ are not actually religions, but denominations or subgroups of Christianity. Does the term Christian offend you so much that it has to be erased from the sitting president's biography? I'm surprised there isn't an argument yet to simply call him a theist. I shouldn't be surprised by this discussion, since this page has long been the home of liberal zealots content with erasing any aspect of Obama's past that doesn't live up to the idol they have in their minds.72.201.251.230 (talk) 11:11, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

If you'd actually read the discussions though, you would see that it is the so-called "liberal zealots" that are the ones who were in favor of keeping the entry as "Christianity". Tarc (talk) 13:09, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

Zealots' opinions should be noted but not necessarily considered. I looked up the United Church of Christ and it is not controversial or radical so mention seems neutral. The McChicken costs $1 (talk) 17:21, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

Race Specification

The article says that Obama is the first African American to become president. While it is true he is not white like the previous presidents, he is not completely African American. His father is African American and his mother is white, which makes him the first mixed president. Just a quick fixup would be much appreciated.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Architectheroes (talk • contribs) 21:21, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

See Q2 in the FAQ above. This question comes up about once a week. Acroterion _(talk) 21:22, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

If a mixed man robs a store, the description is going to be "African American male". This is true even if the eyewitness has no evidence that the suspect is American, much less completely black. Could very well be a man who had a Nigerian father and a British mother. —Preceding unsigned comment added by The McChicken costs $1 (talk • contribs) 21:03, April 28, 2010 (UTC)

If i knew the man that robbed the store was of mixed race than i would tell the police that because he would be easier to identify.XavierGreen (talk) 14:10, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Just because a piece of information is repeatedly, even by sources often considered reliable, does not make something true, especially if the information is heavily tinged with cultural bias. Calling Obama "African-American" and leaving it at that is misleading. Like so many other cases when we focus on the "otherness" of someone we identify as a minority, we make the privileged group invisible. Since it is taken for granted that somebody is white, straight, or male, (etc) we only give specifics when they belong to the less-privileged group. Calling Obama "African-American" instead of "biracial" or "multiracial" enforces white hegemony. I understand this topic has been discussed extensively, but I don't see any evidence that this harmful aspect has been addressed. Sabbrielle (talk) 22:47, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

The job of Misplaced Pages isn't to establish the "truth." --OuroborosCobra (talk) 00:49, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

The job of Misplaced Pages is not to spread falsity, on the other hand. Misplaced Pages should be as accurate as possible. This comment is a statement of fact, not an effort to convince one way or another for a specific edit. The McChicken costs $1 (talk) 17:21, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

African American Abrazame (talk) 06:15, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Consider my answer to a similar question at the Robert C. Weaver discussion page: Talk:Robert_C._Weaver#Ethnicity. Dave Golland (talk) 16:47, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

McChicken, if your goal here isn't to convince us one way or another of a specific edit, then your comments do not belong on this talk page at all. Talk pages are for discussing changes that need to be made to article, they are not here to be your soap box. --OuroborosCobra (talk) 20:11, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

Honorary Doctoral Degree

Obama received an honorary doctoral degree of law from the university of michigan as of today (May 1st 2010). Perhaps somebody could include that information? VonLoyola 18:06, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

I am guessing that he has lots of honorary degrees, titles, and awards. For most anyone, those are not terribly significant to the biography, unless there is something particularly noteworthy about them. - Wikidemon (talk) 05:06, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Maybe another article? The Honorary Degrees of Obama. The McChicken costs $1 (talk) 17:21, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

The awards of Obama would be more appropriate, so how about it? I'll help out!--Iankap99 (talk) 04:06, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

Obama's endorsment of ACTA

I'll leave this to someone else to write up but.... One thing that should be noted is Obama's strong support of Acta. Some people are widely support his stance, others strongly opposing, I think this is enough of an issue to be warrent a mention....

and article by cnn is here http://news.cnet.com/8301-31001_3-20000347-261.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by Primefalcon (talk • contribs) 11:27, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

To be honest I don't see anything significant about this yet. Maybe if it passes, but even then it needs to prove important. The existence of vehement debate doesn't make it notable. Vehement debate happens all the time over trivial and important things. Bottom line here is that nothing has passed and there is no way to know how important ACTA will be yet.23:19, 10 May 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jdlund (talk • contribs)

Citizenship conspiracy theories

wasn't this a big deal when the elections were going on? where's the controversy? ie http://westernfrontamerica.com/2008/11/08/obama-coming-constitutional-crisis/ and all the other sites. O.o —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.89.203.26 (talk) 06:18, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

See answer to Q5 in FAQ, above. Fat&Happy (talk) 13:28, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

I feel it's worth mentioning in the article.TheiGuard (talk) 02:33, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

Well, there are currently 69 volumes of archived discussions linked at the top of this page. Feel free to browse through them and estimate the odds of establishing a consensus for inclusion. Fat&Happy (talk) 02:42, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

Well said, I must say I love the satirical sarcasm on wikipedia. --Iankap99 (talk) 04:07, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

Like many criticisms of Obama, it is mentioned on a subpage, but won't be mentioned here since this is the page everyone visits. Barack_Obama_citizenship_conspiracy_theories. --Jzyehoshua (talk) 01:34, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

So, conspiracy theories are a criticism now? Someone is full of it. BrendanFrye (talk) 03:32, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

I think the fact you think they can't be shows a need for further education. For one thing, if they can't be criticisms, then I think you'll have a tough time explaining why his citizenship is mentioned on a page of its own. So it has its own page, but not because it's a criticism? You haven't thought this through well enough. --Jzyehoshua (talk) 05:23, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

No, it's not a criticism. A criticism is a sincere or plausible opinion voiced about facts. The birther stuff is somewhere between a fringe conspiracy theory and a political smear. But anyway, even if it were a criticism we don't divide the article into criticism and praise sections, but rather work things into the right article(s) in due proportion to their biographical importance and relevance. This stuff isn't terribly important or relevant to the overall scope of Obama's life or career, and is best mentioned in other articles about more narrow, related subjects. The subject has been discussed again and again, and has never gained substantial support among legitimate editors for its inclusion. - Wikidemon (talk) 05:59, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Source, WikiDemon? Misplaced Pages's page on Criticism simply defines it as "the judgement (using analysis and evaluation) of the merits and faults of the actions or work of another individual." I have a hard time believing you're trying to place as a definition of criticism that it has to have basis in fact. Criticism by many reliable definitions would simply be negative statements. According to Princeton's definition, for example, a critic can be defined simply as "someone who frequently finds fault or makes harsh and unfair judgments". Logically then, I'm not sure where you're coming up with this definition of the word.

As for whether that merits mention in the article, you are again trying to read into this standards that are inaccurate. Regardless of whether it is fact-based (and I have my doubts), supported by 'legitimate editors' (I notice you are going to try and disqualify some of the many editors who have in the past brought this up), and regardless of whether it is a fringe theory, it can still be discussed if notable and reliably sourced. According to Misplaced Pages:Fringe theories, "A fringe theory can be considered notable if it has been referenced extensively, and in a serious manner, in at least one major publication, or by a notable group or individual that is independent of the theory... Subjects receive attention in Misplaced Pages in proportion to the level of detail in the sources from which the article is written." Furthermore, according to that same article, "Likewise, exceptional claims in Misplaced Pages require high-quality reliable sources, and, with clear editorial consensus, unreliable sources for exceptional claims may be rejected due to a lack of quality." While consensus can block sources due to a lack of quality, it cannot block simply because they claim consensus. Logically, Misplaced Pages consensus should not be all that's needed to make a fringe theory notable, just as it should not be all that's needed to reject notable and well-sourced criticisms. --Jzyehoshua (talk) 15:15, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

"I think the fact you think they can't be shows a need for further education." Ha ha. You're a troll. BrendanFrye (talk) 14:18, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, right, the guy here since February 2007 is a troll because the guy here since December 2009 said so. --Jzyehoshua (talk) 15:15, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

The difference is that I've been not trolling since December. Your argument (like your logic) above is basically gibberish and just a huge waste of time. BrendanFrye (talk) 15:30, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

I'll stop feeding the trolls now. Have fun spinning your wheels. BrendanFrye (talk) 15:31, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

I feel he deserves a criticism section, he is one of the most controversial presidents of all time.TheiGuard (talk) 15:44, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Indeed. I have found in the past that no matter how notable a criticism of Obama, or how well-sourced it may be, that the editors on the Obama page will fight it tooth and nail, bringing in other liberal editors from elsewhere on Misplaced Pages and then claiming 'consensus' regardless of past editors who provided opposite consensus who just aren't present at the time. I would think consensus alone should not be enough to block mention of topics that are notable and reliably sourced.

For example, Misplaced Pages mentions notable criticisms of Barack Obama, but none are mentioned on the main page because of how strongly the editors there fight it. Some examples:

-Voting record on live birth abortion: Barack_Obama_social_policy, United States Senate election in_Illinois, 2004, Nat Hentoff, James Dobson, David Freddoso, Jill Stanek, Gianna Jessen, Alan Keyes, The Committee for Truth in Politics

-Citizenship: Natural born citizen of the United States, Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories, Andy Martin (American politician), Alan Keyes, Political positions of Sarah Palin, Ken Cuccinelli, Ted Poe, Wiley Drake

-Knocked off all candidates in 1st election by disqualifying petition signatures on technicalities: Illinois Senate elections of Barack Obama, Illinois Senate career of Barack Obama, Alice Palmer (politician)

-Asked Emil Jones, head of Illinois Senate, to make him a U.S. Senator, following which he was appointed head of high-profile pieces of legislation worked on by other Illinois Senators: Illinois Senate career of Barack Obama, Emil Jones

Supposedly, though worthy of mention elsewhere on Misplaced Pages, they are somehow not valid on the page of the person they most concern. --Jzyehoshua (talk) 17:47, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Furthermore, there is no denying the notability or relevance thereof, given that each of these issues, even apart from their mention on separate Misplaced Pages articles, has substantial independent media references. For example:

-Voting record on live birth abortion: FactCheck.org/Newsweek, New York Times, CNN, FOX News, National Right to Life Committee, New York Sun, Real Clear Politics (Time Magazine blog), Chicago Tribune, National Review, MSNBC

-Obama's present votes on these controversial bills: ABC News, PolitiFact, Chicago Tribune, Washington Post, Time Magazine, New York Sun, Huffington Post, Chicago Sun-Times

-Disqualified candidates in 1st election: CNN, Chicago Tribune , Boston Globe, New York Times,

-Requested Emil Jones make him a U.S. Senator: Time Magazine , CBS News, Boston Globe, Houston Press

The citizenship stuff, I'm sure everyone can already guess could be well-sourced. --Jzyehoshua (talk) 19:49, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Going for another topic ban Jzyehoshua? Your last topic ban on this page was what, three months ago? You were doing so well. Please stop posting walls of text, if you can't make your point succinctly than it probably isn't a point worth making. :) BrendanFrye (talk) 19:59, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

It's been a while since Scjessey and others here (whether you were one I don't know) got banned/disciplined much more seriously for your attacks on members on this topic. I know you can't address the points other than to try and distract by focusing on the person rather than the argument, so I'll humor you for now. --Jzyehoshua (talk) 20:16, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

Responding to Jzyehoshua's point, you are referring to a different meaning of the word "criticism". What you initially proposed is that we include negative facts about Obama for the sake of including negative facts, which is not criticism at all. It would fit the Misplaced Pages concept of a coatrack. Others refer to criticism as negative opinions about the facts of a thing, the oppositve of praise. That is the more serious proposal, covering people's negative opinions about Obama, and that is precisely what is discouraged on Misplaced Pages and has been rejected time after time. That is normally based in fact, although there is a different sense (one wholly unsuitable here) for baseless negative assertions - but even those are assertions of opinion. A factual claim, right or wrong, is not criticism. And what you're referring to is criticism in the sense of critique, something we don't really do for articles about people, but we do in say films, where many have a "critical reception" section. And yes, I am disqualifying many of the accounts from which this was brought this up in the past - they are now banned as fake accounts, and the long-term editors here have been very wary of new accounts making similar proposals. Anyway, it's very unlikely that the editors would agree now to adding a criticism section, and I'm not sure how productive a protracted discussion would be here. It's heading in the wrong direction as it is. - Wikidemon (talk) 16:03, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

I never said that we should include negative facts for the sake of including them. Where are you getting this from? What I actually said was that if criticisms are notable and reliably sourced, then they should be included, and that consensus without a valid objection, such as on the basis of sourcing or notability, should not be enough to prevent the subject's mention. --Jzyehoshua (talk) 17:43, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

@TheiGuard, after an edit conflict - That's a load of old cobblers, quite frankly. Obama has been among the least controversial of presidents by any legitimate measure. His policies and actions have been entirely predictable and mainstream. Just because a tiny band of ill-educated racists and a few political opponents regard Obama as controversial, this does not make it so. While there are indeed legitimate criticisms one can make against Obama, they are minor in scope and have attracted little notoriety. Certainly there is nothing substantive enough to warrant a criticism section. -- Scjessey (talk) 16:07, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

I would appreciate if you would reframe from calling me a racist. I will no longer be engaging in this conversation. You are guarding this article as if it is yours. Misplaced Pages is about sharing information, and I plan to share plenty of knowledge on this article. TheiGuard (talk) 19:50, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

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