Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 08:51, 14 April 2010

This is Jimbo Wales's talk page, where you can send them messages and comments.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed

Archives: Index, Index, A, B, C, D, E, F, G, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80, 81, 82, 83, 84, 85, 86, 87, 88, 89, 90, 91, 92, 93, 94, 95, 96, 97, 98, 99, 100, 101, 102, 103, 104, 105, 106, 107, 108, 109, 110, 111, 112, 113, 114, 115, 116, 117, 118, 119, 120, 121, 122, 123, 124, 125, 126, 127, 128, 129, 130, 131, 132, 133, 134, 135, 136, 137, 138, 139, 140, 141, 142, 143, 144, 145, 146, 147, 148, 149, 150, 151, 152, 153, 154, 155, 156, 157, 158, 159, 160, 161, 162, 163, 164, 165, 166, 167, 168, 169, 170, 171, 172, 173, 174, 175, 176, 177, 178, 179, 180, 181, 182, 183, 184, 185, 186, 187, 188, 189, 190, 191, 192, 193, 194, 195, 196, 197, 198, 199, 200, 201, 202, 203, 204, 205, 206, 207, 208, 209, 210, 211, 212, 213, 214, 215, 216, 217, 218, 219, 220, 221, 222, 223, 224, 225, 226, 227, 228, 229, 230, 231, 232, 233, 234, 235, 236, 237, 238, 239, 240, 241, 242, 243, 244, 245, 246, 247, 248, 249, 250, 251, 252Auto-archiving period: 1 day

Archives

Index –index– October 28, 2001 – April 12, 2004 April 16, 2004 – August 23, 2004 August 28, 2004 – December 8, 2004 December 9, 2004 – March 23, 2005 March 23, 2005 – July 24, 2005 July 26, 2005 – September 9, 2005 September 9, 2005 – September 24, 2005 September – December 2005 January 2006 January – February 2006 February 2006 February 2006, cont. March 2006 April 2006 – late May 2006 May 24 – July 2006 July 2006 – August 2006 August 2006 Most of September 2006 Late September 2006 – Early November 2006 Most of November 2006 Late November 2006 – December 8, 2006 December 9, 2006 – Mid January 2007 From December 22, 2006 blanking Mid January 2007 – Mid February 2007 Mid February 2007– Feb 25, 2007 From March 2, 2007 blanking March 2–5, 2007 March 5–11, 2007 March 11 – April 3, 2007 April 2 – May 2, 2007 May 3 – June 7, 2007 June 9 – July 4, 2007 July 13 – August 17, 2007 August 17 – September 11, 2007 September 14 – October 7, 2007 October 28 – December 1, 2007 December 2 – December 16, 2007 December 15 – January 4, 2008 January 4 – January 30, 2008 January 30 – February 28, 2008 February 28 – March 11, 2008 March 9 – April 18, 2008 April 18 – May 30, 2008 May 30 – July 27, 2008 July 26 – October 4, 2008 October 4 – November 12, 2008 November 10 – December 10, 2008 December 5 – December 25, 2008 December 25 – January 16, 2009 January 15 – January 27, 2009 January 26 – February 10, 2009 February 8 – March 18, 2009 March 18 – May 6, 2009 May 5 – June 9, 2009 June 10 – July 11, 2009 July 12 – August 25, 2009 August 26 – October 3, 2009 October 4 – November 20, 2009 November 20 – December 21, 2009 December 22, 2009 – January 25, 2010 January 22, 2010 – February 22, 2010 February 22, 2010 – March 17, 2010 March 17, 2010 – April 9, 2010 April 11, 2010 – April 24, 2010 April 23, 2010 – May 12, 2010 May 10, 2010 – June 4, 2010 June 4, 2010 – June 26, 2010 June 26, 2010 – July 22, 2010 July 22, 2010 – August 23, 2010 August 4, 2010 – August 28, 2010 August 28, 2010 – September 14, 2010 September 13, 2010 – October 6, 2010 October 6, 2010 – November 8, 2010 November 8, 2010 – November 21, 2010 November 21, 2010 – December 6, 2010 December 6, 2010 – December 22, 2010 December 21, 2010 – January 17, 2011 January 16, 2011 – February 10, 2011 February 6, 2011 – March 19, 2011 March 16, 2011 – March 26, 2011 March 26, 2011 – April 22, 2011 April 22, 2011 – May 16, 2011 May 17, 2011 – June 9, 2011 June 10, 2011 – July 1, 2011 July 1, 2011 – July 15, 2011 July 16, 2011 – July 26, 2011 July 26, 2011 – August 15, 2011 August 14, 2011 – August 23, 2011 August 21, 2011 – August 31, 2011 August 30, 2011 – September 7, 2011 September 4, 2011 – September 25, 2011 September 26, 2011 – October 19, 2011 October 16, 2011 – November 5, 2011 November 4, 2011 – November 12, 2011 November 11, 2011 – November 24, 2011 November 24, 2011 – December 6, 2011 December 3, 2011 – December 14, 2011 December 10, 2011 – December 16, 2011 (RFC about the Stop Online Piracy Act) December 15, 2011 – December 30, 2011 December 27, 2011 – January 9, 2012 January 9, 2012 – January 18, 2012 January 17, 2012 – January 30, 2012 January 28, 2012 – February 12, 2012 February 7, 2012 – February 25, 2012 February 19, 2012 – March 4, 2012 February 27, 2012 – March 18, 2012 March 17, 2012 – April 2, 2012 March 31, 2012 – April 13, 2012 April 12, 2012 – April 18, 2012 April 18, 2012 – April 26, 2012 April 26, 2012 – May 6, 2012 May 2, 2012 – May 22, 2012 May 19, 2012 – June 9, 2012 June 4, 2012 – June 20, 2012 June 18, 2012 – June 28, 2012 June 26, 2012 – July 12, 2012 July 3, 2012 – July 22, 2012 July 19, 2012 – July 29, 2012 July 25, 2012 – August 9, 2012 August 7, 2012 – August 30, 2012 August 29, 2012 – September 13, 2012 September 13, 2012 – September 27, 2012 September 26, 2012 – October 5, 2012 September 24, 2012 – October 20, 2012 October 9, 2012 – October 31, 2012 October 29, 2012 – November 19, 2012 November 17, 2012 – December 5, 2012 December 2–15, 2012 December 15–28, 2012 December 24, 2012 – January 12, 2013 January 13–31, 2013 February 1–10, 2013 February 11–28, 2013 March 1–16, 2013 March 17–27, 2013 March 28 – April 6, 2013 April 6–19, 2013 April 19 – May 3, 2013 April 25 – May 8, 2013 May 6–19, 2013 May 18–30, 2013 May 27 – June 16, 2013 June 17–30, 2013 June 27 – July 30, 2013 July 31 – August 4, 2013 August 4–12, 2013 August 13–27, 2013 August 28 – September 4, 2013 September 5–10, 2013 September 11–22, 2013 September 24 – October 6, 2013 October 7–16, 2013 October 17–27, 2103 October 28 – November 6, 2013 November 7–19, 2013 November 20–27, 2013 November 28 – December 5, 2013 December 6–24, 2013 December 25–30, 2013 December 31, 2013 – January 14, 2014 January 15–24, 2014 January 25–29, 2014 January 30 – February 10, 2014 Archives not yet dated: 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 This manual archive index may be out of date. Future archives: 184 185 186

This page has archives. Sections older than 1 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III.

Attack coatrack we discussed

I noticed while you recognized that the Carrie Prejean attack page was a coatrack, you didn't accept straight off that it was an attack page. The "encyclopedia article" was created when Miss Prejean, then 21, said that marriage was a man-woman thing. I quote the gay/ same-sex marriage advocate mob editors:

• "Hilton's words and Prejean's answer to the marriage question are the only reason Prejean has an article today."
• "Prejean's fame beyond yet-another-state-pagaent-winner lies in the interactions with Hilton and the public reactions thereto."

Per Misplaced Pages:BLP#Articles_about_people_notable_only_for_one_event, "If reliable sources cover the person only in the context of a single event, and if that person otherwise remains, or is likely to remain, a low-profile individual, we should generally avoid having an article on them. Biographies in these cases can give undue weight to the event and conflict with neutral point of view." -- Rico 18:36, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

It isn't helpful to insult people by calling them a 'mob'.

As to the content issue, I don't know the case well enough to have a strong opinion on whether this is a BLP1E situation, but I will say that there is at least very good reason to consider it, and my initial inclination would be to agree with you. As it currently stands, I re-iterate my opinion from before: the article is a fiasco and embarrassment. I'm dealing with several different issues at once these days, and so I'm not going to have time to personally get involved in this one, but I do hope I will be kept informed over time as to how it progresses.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 18:42, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

• Hey Rico, since I am the first quote above, I will note that I not a mob member. Even mice don't scurry from me. I followed the Prejean "controversy" closely at first and have cleaned up vandal edits on wikipedia to her article (as I have also done to James O'Keefe more recently). I also know that state pageant winners often do not get to have articles on wikipedia because they get deleted (not by me, but I'm more of an inclusionist if articles are verifiable). There is no question that Prejean's notability stems from her answer given in the pageant and Perez's subsequent baiting to increase the controversy. Since then she has had a very rocky road, and the article necessarily reflects what has been reported, and we need to avoid being too gratuitous--Jimbo's comment is not surprising because unless you've followed the controversy closely, you would be surprised to know the overall tenor of her coverage was exceedingly negative. But she's way too famous now not to have an article, imho. Its always fair to debate whether and how certain things should be worded, but those who may not agree with you aren't necessarily some cabal of gay marriage aficianados.--Milowent (talk) 18:49, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

Milowent, I did look into this a couple of weeks ago when it was first brought to my attention, and I think the article is quite unfair as it stands. (And I agree with you that turning this into a "pro gay marriage cabal" argument is not likely to be useful.)

I think the things that disturbs me most right now is the close of the article - the article closes with an obvious enemy of hers (remember, she sued them for terminating her contract) calling her a liar, delusional, etc. The "hook" for that quote is that she apparently performed quite poorly on Larry King, storming off the set or whatever - is that incident actually worth including in the article? (Maybe it is, I'm just raising the question.) Surely she's done dozens of other interviews that went perfectly well - but we don't talk about those, we only talk about her failed interview with King.

What do you think of the BLP1E question? It does seem pretty much right that she wouldn't have an article had Perez Hilton not behaved as he did. (Seriously, I think were it not for his behavior, no one in the press would have even noted her answer - it is, as many have noted - not a completely outrageous answer even if you don't agree with it... it's the same answer that is fairly standard for a lot of people. Had she said "I think gay people should burn in hell" then that would have likely been notable in and of itself. But this only became notable because of something that someone else did.) Even the subsequent lawsuit might not have generated any particular notice - people sue people all the time, it's not that big a deal in most cases.)--Jimbo Wales (talk) 19:05, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

I don't think this is just a BLP1E, but the article desperately needs to be rewritten. I edited it for awhile, but got fed up with partisans on either side of the issue and took it off my watchlist. Starting with the Miss USA 2009 controversy pretty much gets undue weight. I'm going to take a crack at it and see if I can get rid of some of the bias. AniMate 19:13, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

I appreciate that you got rid of some of the bias.

However, you masked the coatrack by:

(A) Spliting sections for when Miss Prejean said marriage was between a man and a woman, and what happened as a consequence, into two separate sections.

(B) You added another section for the book she wrote, even though it's abundantly clear that her book's about what happened to her.

(C) You added the unencyclopedic fact that she got engaged to a football player.

The addition of her engagement and book, disguised her lack of notability.

The addition of multiple unrelated non-notable accomplishments took the focus away from the event that was the true purpose for creating the coatrack article.

Also, the way I remember it, you left because TharsHammar -- who had been fighting for casting Miss Prejean in a bad light (using a leaked email of hers, in violation of BLP's Presumption in favor of privacy) -- called you an "edit warrior" -- Rico 05:25, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

The lawsuit, that never was -- because it was withdrawn -- is in the article for two reasons:

(1) One of the causes of action was that the Miss California USA co-directors (both gay rights activists), said that Miss Prejean had had a boob job. She sued alleging disclosure of private facts. Without the lawsuit, that wasn't, it's hard to claim it's worthy of inclusion that a model and beauty pageant contestant had had a breast implant.

(2) TMZ, a decidedly unreliable source, published that the reason Prejean withdrew her lawsuit, was that there had been a "sex tape" that the defendants would make public if she continued with the suit. Without the lawsuit, that wasn't, they can't put it into the article that there was this "sex tape" that an anonymous person said existed.

All titillating claims about Miss Prejean's life, and everything derogatory, must be included in this sensationalistic attack page. The possibility of harm to Prejean has always been considered and, when that possibility has existed, the content has been included in the tabloid encyclopedia article. -- Rico 04:28, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Milowent wrote, "the article necessarily reflects what has been reported the overall tenor of her coverage was exceedingly negative."

I have to disagree that:

(1) It is "necessary" that a Misplaced Pages article "reflects what has been reported."

(2) A biography of a living person should "necessarily reflect" an "exceedingly negative" "overall tenor" of coverage.

(1) BLP1E states, "Merely being in the news does not imply someone should be the subject of an encyclopedia entry."

(2) BLP Criticism and praise states, "Criticism needs to be presented responsibly, conservatively, and in a neutral, encyclopedic tone. Look out for biased or malicious content about living persons. If someone appears to be promoting a biased point of view," and there are a lot of motivated someones, give up. Misplaced Pages policies will prove to be not worth the media they're stored on.

This "encyclopedia article" has always been a smear file, and content was cherrypicked to use Misplaced Pages to establish that this college student was a s__t.

It has always been an attack page, a repository for all the dirt that was drudged up against her in gay/liberal media attacks, and it always will be.

What one editor wrote about one section applies to the entire attack page, and to Misplaced Pages: "I am not a fan of rightist 'Christian' Ms Carrie Prejean - I am rather quite the opposite," but the section/article "is all through biased and considers only Anti-Prejean statements, what makes this article sad and also make sometimes the state of wikipedia sad." -- Rico 03:34, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

I don't know if it was that you wrote, "I think Carrie is an idiot," or that you put in the article that "some reports have noted that teens have been prosecuted as sex offenders for sending such tapes," or that you substituted polling for a discussion -- voting that it should be in the BLP that an openly gay gossip blogger called her a "dumb bitch."

You can't just write in the article that Miss Prejean is a "dumb bitch," but you can report that someone else said it, if enough Wikipedians want that. Then an admin comes along and declares, "Consensus seems to favor inclusion", and restores the disputed content -- even though Misplaced Pages:HARM#For removal of sourced content states, "Only restore the content if there is a clear and unequivocal consensus to do so," and Misplaced Pages:Biographies of living persons#Restoring deleted content states, "the burden of proof is on those who wish to retain, restore, or undelete the disputed material."

You argued, "'Prejean admitted that making the video of herself and sending it — an act that other teens have been prosecuted as sex offenders for doing'). I suppose that last one supports a mention of it in the article." Luitgard thanked you for your "great objective research," and bought into your idea of "creat a Carrie Prejean Child Porn Sex Video article."

So please excuse me if I assumed you were just another one of the dozens of editors and admins that have not been editing to create an encyclopedia article, but to create an attack coatrack of a living person.

And Milowent, I struck out the word mob before you wrote this. -- Rico 05:25, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

If she's "she's way too famous now not to have an article," why doesn't Encyclopedia Britannica have one? -- Rico 04:06, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

When I wrote "mob", I only meant an overwhelming number of people -- that mobs you, with mobocracy (or "mob rule"). I wasn't thinking about an angry mob that goes after someone with pitchforks and torches, even though they have come after us many times -- with SLAPP suit-style abuses of process, Star Chamber activity and WP:Harassment -- with the predictable chilling effects. Lumping the two editors I quoted, above, into that group was a mistake -- and not essential to my point.

I have already objectively proven the interest in homosexuality and/or same-sex marriage of the editors that wanted an attack page, here (skip down to the bullet points). It is not a stretch of the imagination to suggest, given the time of their arrival at the Carrie Prejean attack coatrack, that they were editing the article because Miss Prejean had stated that marriage was exclusively between a man and a woman. It's hard to apologize for stating the obvious, especially after I've proven it, but lumping individuals into this group may have been painting with overly broad strokes, and it was unnecessary. For that, I'm sorry.

Since Dictionary.com recognizes that one definition of a mob, is simply "any group or collection of persons or things," I hope we can focus on the (now masked) attack coatrack. -- Rico 04:35, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

• Jimbo- I personally think the Larry King coverage is too much (ETA: and i said so at the time, Talk:Carrie_Prejean/Archive_2#larry_king), though it was covered widely at the time. What you can see is that the California pageant people were really vicious in this public drama - it would likely be fairer to say both sides made contentious public statements about other side. The lawsuit also didn't get major coverage until the sex tape claim came out. As for the BLP1E issue, I can't imagine consensus would favor her deletion, and we can't ignore the massive coverage she has received. Its a "famous for being famous" dilemma, and we are reflecting what the media has made notable. Thus, for John Edwards we have a massive John Edwards extramarital affair article.--Milowent (talk) 19:24, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

This is becoming more and more of a problem that probably deserves some sort of RfC or other centralized discussion. Articles that should fail by BLP1E standards get legions of supporters at their AfDs because they cite "the massive coverage" out there. With the advent of the 24/7 news cycle and the tabloidish/sensationalist nature of even major media outlets these days, IMO the threshold for being "in the news" is far, far, far lower now than it was even 3-4 years ago. Tarc (talk) 19:33, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

I've removed much of the contentious material. Like Milowent, there was far too much on the Larry King interview. People give weird interviews all the time, so I removed it. I also condensed everything about the post-Miss USA into a couple of paragraphs. I think the worst part of the article was a sly attempt to say that Prejean could have been convicted for distributing child pornography for her tape if she was underage when it was taken. She wasn't, but the statement was still in there with multiple sources. AniMate 19:58, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

If Miss Prejean's masked coatrack were listed at AfD based on BLP1E, many supporters would vote to keep it, simply because they want the attack coatrack.

Listing the encyclopedia article for deletion has already discussed, among anti-Prejean editors, and they concluded that "Prejean is basically non-notable," but that "'Non-notable and stuck with it' pretty well covers it."

Per Notability is not temporary, "Misplaced Pages is not a news source: it takes more than just a short burst of news reports about a single event or topic to constitute sufficient evidence of notability – particularly for living individuals known for one event (WP:BLP1E) when there was a flurry of media reports but it has since become clear the topic was not notable; where time allows a more dispassionate appraisal of enduring noteworthiness."

Attack coatrack supporters would not be able to truthfully argue that Miss Prejean was notable for anything more than for what happened to her when she said she believed marriage was between a man and a woman.

Miss Prejean was a low profile person, and is again.

Heterosexuals (most people) barely noticed that Miss California USA, not to be confused with Miss California, said that marriage is a man-woman thing. Lots of people have.

Anybody can set up an alert and have anything that's written about Carrie Prejean, anywhere on the Internet, emailed to them or made part of a news feed -- and then put anything that makes her look bad into the 'encyclopedia' article, and then claim "massive coverage."

I get Google News hits for "stuff nobody cares about." Over time, I'm sure I could make a whole article about it and claim "massive coverage." -- Rico 06:25, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

If the lawsuit (that wasn't) got major coverage, why can't I find it -- or anything else about Carrie Prejean -- in the newspapers that Misplaced Pages considers reliable?

Are there any peer-reviewed textbooks, published by university presses, when I can find the "massive coverage"?

I don't know what "famous for being famous" means, and while y'all have been "reflecting" what y'all have found in The Huffington Post and Gaslamp Ball, I'm not sure that 109 newspapers makes one notable -- perhaps the event, but there is already another article for that. -- Rico 02:49, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Wow, you're actually trying to claim that Carrie Prejean and the controversy was not covered in the New York Times or the Washington Post. Takes guts to do that, man. Let's see...first, you apparently have no Google-fu -- try the Google archive search, such as -- besides, searching the newspaper archives directly gives better results, such as , , , for instance. Second, there is still a perfectly good talk page for the article, why aren't you there? Third, if you want the article deleted, wouldn't WP:AFD be a much easier path? Think about it. -- ArglebargleIV (talk) 03:17, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Here is a quote from an editor that argues for slagging, arguing that Miss Prejean's notability is for the same reason I've been saying, but who suggests merging the Miss USA 2009 controversy article into her BLP:

"This conflict is key to her being who see is, to the degree that she's a person of more note than, say, Raquel Beezley. Now if you want to argue that the controversy should not be a separate article, and should be merged into this one, I'd think that's something worth considering."

I don't think there's a need for two articles. If Carrie Prejean was notable at all, it was for the Miss USA 2009 controversy. -- Rico 05:16, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Here's another quote:

"Prejean's answer to the Hilton's question is most of why she is well known today. And finally, this is a quote about her answer which is certainly one step removed from Prejean herself."

Indeed. Delete everything from the pseudo-biography that isn't "material relevant to their notability," and the only thing left is the Miss USA 2009 controversy. -- Rico 07:31, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Discussions, that were just between anti Carrie Prejean editors, took the form of: 'how can we include this new slag in the article.' Justifications ranged from simple opinions to a predilection for disparagement (veiled, of course, in standard Misplaced Pages fashion and shrouded in Misplaced Pages-speak) -- but the direction was always the same (tarnish Miss Prejean's reputation).

When people like me tried to suggest following Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines, throngs of Most Interested Persons swamped us with arguments that were often ridiculously unpersuasive. Arguing with people that had no interest in building consensus was like trying to reverse the direction of a swarm of locusts with one's bare hands.

Naturally, we gave up, withdrew, and left the attack coatrack of a living person to those that were running Google News searches for "Carrie Prejean," and copying whatever dirt was published by yellow journalists into her BLP. InaMaka wrote, "You got your way. You and your associates jammed completely inappropriate comments into the article which violate NPOV and BLP." Caden wrote, "I see no point. That hateful mob owns and controls that attack page. Personally, I feel the article should be deleted."

Baseball Bugs, who didn't hide disdain for Miss Prejean, brought up deleting the attack coatrack.

AniMate, who once wrote, "I don't think anyone would confuse me with a Prejean fan," was the principal opponent.

Frederick Douglass stated, "Find out just what people will submit to, and you have found out the exact amount of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them; and these will continue until they are resisted with either words or blows, or both. The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress."

I suspect that the limits of what people will submit to, will be the exact amount of injustice and wrong that will be imposed upon this "encyclopedia article." And the endurance of editors that want Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines complied with, will again prove to be far short of what would be necessary.

What's happened now, is that AniMate -- and who has "DOWN WITH H8TE!," in a big box at the top of his/her user page, with H8TE pointing to California Proposition 8 (2008) -- has deleted some of the most egregious content and added that she's engaged to marry a football player, and that she wrote a book. AniMate also split her answer on gay marriage and the resulting fallout, into two sections, and the article looks less like a coatrack now.

But Miss Prejean's not notable for having gotten engaged to a football player, nor for having written a book. Lots of people write books these days, that don't sell. It would not make sense to report on the fallout, without putting why it occurred. Lots of women get engaged to football players. The BLP1E's still primarily about Miss Prejean's answer and the resulting fallout, and there is another article for that, entitled, "Miss USA 2009 controversy," classified as "within the scope of ... WikiProject LGBT studies." -- Rico 21:03, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

Rico, "people like you" aren't the only ones who follow Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines. I dare say that most of, if not all, of the main principals in this discussion follow Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines, and endeavor to edit according to those precepts. The problem is that part of the difference is in interpretation and application of Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines. The discussion at the talk page should be a discussion of the differing interpretations and how article proposals fit with one or the other, and attempts to persuade editors and gain consensus. Unfortunately, what the discussion is and what it should be are two different things -- far too often at the talk page, the "discussion" was nothing but repetitions of "That's censorship!", "Hilton's evil!", "Prejean's evil!", "You're all pro/anti gay marriage, why should I listen to you?", and repeated postings of quotes from policy pages with any arguments, even pathetic ones, at all. (Heck, to a large extent, many talk pages look like that.) (And, yeah, I've been guilty of that too.) Can we, at least, please discuss the ARTICLE rather than the EDITORS? Maybe the paras in the Prejean article dealing with the controversy can be shortened given the existence of the "Controversy" article - but can we talk about it over on the talk page, instead of at ANI, the BLP noticeboard, and Jimbo's talk page? -- ArglebargleIV (talk) 21:15, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps I'm dense, but I'm still trying to figure out how this is a BLP1E and what exactly Jimbo is supposed to do about it. Is the one event winning Miss California USA? Is it the controversial answer she gave in the Miss USA pageant? Is it the fact that she is one of the few women in the Miss USA organization that had the title taken away? Is it the book she wrote for Regnery Publishing that was endorsed by a number of high profile conservative commentators? So confusing. Even more confusing is why Rico has chosen to complain about this here. Is Jimbo supposed to use his special "Jimbo powers" to make the article disappear? If it is such an obvious BLP1E coatrack attack article, why not just nominate it for deletion? It's also quite confusing that Rico has now declared me not-neutral enough to edit the article because I have a banner showing my disdain for Prop 8, when in a post he linked to above, it shows him quoting me in support of his position. AniMate 05:59, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Why complain here???? Are you serious??? Rico's attempts to improve the article have been consistently removed and deleted. My attempts to improve the article have been removed and deleted. It is wrong for you to even question why he came here. Is there a Wikipedian rule that I am not aware of that states that no one should go to Jimbo's talk page with an important issue unless AniMate or ArgleBargleIV decide it is ok?? No there isn't. Arglebargle states above to to discuss the article and not the editors but you and bargle seem to think is it ok to discuss Rico. That is hypocritical. I have made a consistent argument from day one that as editors of Misplaced Pages we could get across Hilton's clear hatred of Prejean without having to quote him word for word, thus not repeating his hate speech of the phrase "db". I have stated over and over again on the talk page that if some blogger had called Michelle Obama or Hillary Clinton a "db" there is NO way that any Wikipedian editor would have allowed that to be repeated in the article. NOR should we stoop to the level of childish comments such as Hilton's. I have not reviewed the edit history so at this time I don't know if you (AniMate) or Bargle were editors who kept quoting the highly offensive and unnecessary "db" comment of Hilton, but I do know that I was repeatedly overturned each and every time I attempted to remove the exact wording but keep the general gist of Hilton's rant. Not only were my edits reverted immediately I had to read over and over again that my attempt were nothing by "censorship" which is also flat out wrong. I will complain here about that article because it is nothing more than a hit piece on a living person. It is joke now, but it was a worse joke when the "db" wording could not be removed. I believe that the ONLY reason that the "db" wording has not reappear BECAUSE Rico and I are still right here at Jimbo's talk page. As soon as this talk page discussion gets archived I believe the editors who feel the need to repeat Hilton's hatred will return and bring the article back to it POV and BLP violating state. And one last thing, I will bring whatever reasonable discussion of an article to Jimbo's page and I will NOT ask either AniMate or Bargle for permission because I do not have to have it.--InaMaka (talk) 18:20, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Well, since this is continuing here, I will respond here. Warning, a tl/dr block of text is ahead.

First, I prefer "Argle", if you don't mind. :-) (Although if you look in the history of my talk page for reverted revisions, I'm sure you'll find something both more "creative" and more worthy of Mr. Hilton.)

Second, neither Animate nor I have been talking about "rules". You, Rico, Animate, anybody have a perfect right to come to Talk:Jimbo Wales and present your case (unless Jimbo kicks us all off of here) -- and nowhere did I say you couldn't. NOWHERE. You don't have to ask me for permission for anything, and I wouldn't dream of either giving or denying permission. I just wonder why you're here instead of taking policy- and guideline-suggested actions such as a ] or nominating the article for deletion. I don't know how you jumped from my questioning Rico's reasons to half of your rant above. It's far too common these days to assume immunity from questioning or criticism -- sorry, but freedom of speech (even Misplaced Pages's version) doesn't guarantee that. Reasonable responses to suggestions or questions as to why are usually of the forms "Here's why or why not" or "That's ridiculous", not "You're not MY boss!"

Third, earlier here, I presented some examples of suboptimal and disagreeable behavior, with the intent that I've seen it on BOTH sides of this debate, including in myself, but not specifying any editor in particular. My only specific discussion towards Rico was to ask him why. I haven't said anything about his editing style or his Misplaced Pages habits, nor have I accused him of trying to censor and shut down a discussion on Jimbo's talk page. BTW, when an editor throws around accusations of cabal-like behavior, shouldn't he or she be called on it? If you're going to call responding to personal attacks a personal attack in itself, you're effectively arguing for disarmament.

Fourth, I'm not going to discuss the "db" comment here -- there's a perfectly good, if underused, place for discussion already, except to note that I have moved to the position that the "db" quote probably doesn't need to be quoted.

If you and Rico are constantly being reverted, maybe it's because you don't have consensus for your edits? If you believe that there is a policy violation occurring that trumps consensus, there are roads to take that are likely to be more fruitful and more likely to give you the results you want than coming here -- although, as I said before, what you do is up to you, because I don't and won't give orders. -- ArglebargleIV (talk) 19:57, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

InaMaka and I (and others) are usually reverted because we've been vastly outnumbered, and editors and admins -- who have used the attack coatrack just to collect aspersions cast on Miss Prejean -- have always known it.

I stated that tendentious editing, tag teaming and edit warring were the norm last spring. This has not changed, and some editors have been quick to substitute polling for consensus, and take advantage of this -- in violation of WP:NOT#Dem -- but consensus is not numbers. We've never been able to come to a "consensus" on anything. -- Rico 16:49, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

The only reason that the "dumb bitch" wording has not reappeared is that we are here on Jimbo's talk page. After this talk page discussion gets archived, the editors who simply see the article as a place to cast aspersions on Miss Prejean will return the pseudo-biography to its POV and BLP violating state.

The fact that this attack coatrack has been the first hit Google's search engine has always returned, is a black eye on Misplaced Pages's reputation, and an embarrassment.

What we have gone through, before and after having given up, is a testament to the mobocracy dynamic that dominates Misplaced Pages.

There is a big difference between the theory of Misplaced Pages, as expressed in its policies, guidelines and major essays, and the reality of Misplaced Pages, which is that POV warring is in great abundance throughout Misplaced Pages, and that the side with the most Most Interested Persons wins. -- Rico 07:21, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

If Miss Prejean was notable for anything, it was for the way she was vilified by the liberal media, as a reaction to her answer to the question about what she thought about gay marriage. There is a content fork that has all that in it. Her BLP is also primarily about that -- with a few non-notable, trivial details that mask the coatrack. For example:

• AniMate added that she wrote a book. We don't know how many copies she sold. She is not notable for having written a book. I wrote a book, and Misplaced Pages doesn't have a BLP about me. (The publisher is the source cited.)
• Someone added that she got engaged, but she has not set a date. I tried to delete this trivia, but AniMate reverted my deletion 18 minutes later, stating that it was "verified". (This was the 'reliable' source.)

Adding her favorite color will not change the facts.

The media vilification has proven to be transient, and former Miss California USA Carrie Prejean is a low profile college student once again.

Misplaced Pages's reputation suffers when it is revealed that an large number of editors, most or all of which edit gay and same sex marriage articles, can use Misplaced Pages to create a smear file -- just by copying vilification from yellow journalism into a so-called biography of a living person, just because she said marriage was between a man and a woman.

This BLP has always been primarily based on nasty, short-lived, little media flurries; most of its editors have had a predilection for disparagement (and just like to copy dirt into the article), and few of these have been restrained by Misplaced Pages's policies and guidelines; and have often sought to use processes to shut more policy-minded editors up, presumably because of their numbers and interest level.

By simply copying things from media Internet sites -- even though "most newsworthy events do not qualify for inclusion" (WP:NOT#NEWS) -- this BLP has been more like news than an encyclopedia article.

For almost a year, when googling "Carrie Prejean," the first hit has been an attack coatrack -- and there are indications that this fact is not lost on the editors. That's a hell of a thing to do to a young college student.

It's pretty disgusting to see people's activism amounting to attacking a living person with every derogatory thing that appears in a newspaper somewhere, gossip website or on TV. -- Rico 07:31, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

I never declared you not-neutral enough to edit the article. -- Rico 06:17, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

I disagree that "most of, if not all, of the main principals in this discussion follow Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines."

I can prove they don't.

You, Wikidemon and AniMate are principals in this discussion.

Last Thursday, I moved an untrue, disputed, contentious slag to the talk page.

Caden agreed with me.

You reverted my edit 18 minutes after I made it.

I deleted the slag again.

Wikidemon restored the slag stating, "no plausible BLP argument no consensus to remove."

Caden deleted the slag.

Wikidemon restored the slag stating, "please discuss disputed changes on talk page." (Caden had.)

InaMaka deleted the slag.

Tarc restored the slag.

I made another plausible BLP argument, disproving Wikidemon's contention that "there's no plausible BLP argument here."

WP:HARM states, "Only restore the content if there is a clear and unequivocal consensus to do so," and BLP policy states, "the burden of proof is on those who wish to retain, restore, or undelete the disputed material."

"The burden of proof is on those who wish to retain, restore, or undelete the disputed material," yet "main principals in this discussion" did not even attempt to prove "there a clear and unequivocal consensus to do so."

(Administrator AniMate, another of the "main principals in this discussion," repeatedly violates this policy.)

SlimVirgin protected the page, citing the "edit war," another policy "main principals in this discussion" had not been following, working together to circumvent the three revert rule instead.

Edit warring over the inclusion of slags in the pseudo-biography has been the rule, not the exception. -- Rico 06:29, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Rico, since you're spreading your answers all over the place here, I'm just going to respond down here. If you think the article should be deleted, why are you complaining here (and spending more of your time complaining about editors than discussing the article)? Why haven't you tried an AFD on the article? Jimbo isn't likely to wave his magic wand and make it go away on your command. -- ArglebargleIV (talk) 05:41, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Dear ArglebargleIV: Your comments above do not in anyway focus on how to make the Prejean article better. As a matter of fact, all your comments above are just an attempt to dictate to Rico what he actions as an editor should be. That is not helpful. Reading your comments you give the impression that taking an issue to Jimbo is a waste of time. Since you have decided to use this forum as an opportunity to dictate actions to Rico instead of fixing the obviously seriously faulted Prejean article and if it is a waste of time, which I do not believe it is, then why aren't you writing on each and every comment made on Jimbo's site concerning each and every article that is brought to Jimbo for his attention. We both know the answer to that question. You believe the Prejean article to be a mastery of insight and NPOV balance. But you are wrong. The Prejean article has been coatrack for over a year. It is just a place to go to bash Prejean by people who obviously do not agree with her position on gay marriage. It is not a fair article. I agree with all of Rico's comments concerning the article and I have attempted to edit the article myself and there are editors who simply overturned edit after edit moving the article back to its BLP violating state. I'm going to express my opinion right here whether you like it or not. Your attempts to question Rico's motives is an example of how badly written the article is. I will comment here and and Rico will comment here and that is just the way that it is going to be. Why don't you focus on improving the article which is what Rico and I have attempted to do. We are attempting to tone down article make it less of a BLP violating coatrack that it is. You comments just seem to designed to shut us up. That doesn't seem to be a very good use of time.--InaMaka (talk) 18:02, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

Dear Bargle: I reviewed the edit history of the Prejean article. An editor named TharsHammar kept placing the "db" quote in the article over and over again and he would state that the removal of the phrase "db" was '"censorship"'. You can see an example of that unhelpful editing here: Example of jamming "db" quote in article. At one point Hilton's use of the words "db" was re-stated four and five times in the article--which is clearly unencyclopedic and unnecessary, not to mention that it violates various goals and requirements of Misplaced Pages such as NPOV and BLP. You can see in the following edit that the hate-filled phrase of Hilton's "db" quote was in the article several times: Example of four uses of "db" by the anti-Prejean editors. Now, you, Mr. Bargle did believe incorrectly that jamming the "db" quote in the article was absolutely necessary. You can see an example of repeating Hilton's quote by ABargle here: Exmple of where Arglebargle demanded that Misplaced Pages quote Hilton's hate speech directly, which is clearly a violation of NPOV and BLP. Yes, the editors of the article were dead set on quoting Hilton's hate speech and I will give one more example of the overbearing nature of their desire to see of the phrase "db" in the article. Please review this particular edit by TharsHammar: Another example that we must either quote Hilton's hate speech word for word or be charged with censorship. This is the extent of the debate. It was a my way or the highway type of debate. Once again, there is NO WAY under God's green earth would Wikipedian editors (and admin's at that) allow a low life blogger like Hilton to call Michelle Obama, Hillary Clinton, Nancy Pelosi, etc. a "db" and then re-quote the low life blogger on Misplaced Pages. Now, I attempted to make a compromise and move the direct quote of Hilton's hate speech (which of course is completely inappropriate) to a footnote so that the exact wording would remain in article to stop the bogus screams of "censorship" from TharsHammar. Then, Mr. ArgleBargle reverted me and stated that moving the direct quote to the footnote was inappropriate. You can review Mr. ABargle unhelpful reversion of my compromise here: Example of Bargle jamming the hate-filled, inappropriate, NPOV and BLP violating quote back in the Carrie Prejean article. Mr. Bargle is upset that Rico and I are here on Jimbo's talk page commenting in his particular attempts to violate NPOV and BLP policies by jamming Hilton's hate-filled speech into the Carrie Prejean article. Now I see why you are questioning why we are here. You don't want your work to be reviewed by folks you can't push around. You know that if Rico and I just stay on the Carrie Prejean talk page then you can with the assistance of like minded editors and admins jam those NPOV and BLP edits right there into the article without much work. I pointed that ArgleBargle was edit warring here: Example of ABargle and TharsHammar engaging in edit wars. I attempted to put something in the article that was NOT a direct attack on Carrie Prejean and something that was notable. I added information about her guest hosting Fox and Friends and of course that was removed by the anti-Prejean editors. The anti-Prejean editors were NOT going to allow any positive information about Prejean in the article. You can review that unhelpful edit here: Example of anti-Prejean edit willfully removing positive info about Prejean but somehow it was not censorship. I do not believe in censorship so I put the Fox & Friends material back in the article and AniMate--who is upset that Rico and I are commenting here--reverted the Fox & Friends material and removed it, but AniMate did not seem to be worried about censorship issues at that point. You can review AniMate's inappropriate removal of positive, on point, notable information about Carrie Prejean here: Example of AniMate removing positive information about Prejean. The edit history goes on and on. The article needs to be cleaned up. And Bargle and AniMate have a direct conflict.--InaMaka (talk) 20:07, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

The way editors and admins, that were simply using the article as an attack page -- included the "dumb bitch" quote five times -- elucidates the goal. Put anything that makes Miss Prejean look bad into the article; keep anything that makes her look good out of it.

Dumb bitch Carrie ("Dumb Bitch") Prejean, who is a dumb bitch -- dumb bitch that she is -- is a dumb bitch.

Editors and admins prevented inclusion of Miss Prejean's guest hosting of Fox and Friends, but insisted on including the Larry King Live interview (in which King tried to humiliate her).

What's more worthy of inclusion -- her having been a guest, or her having been the host?

Miss Prejean once posted on the talk page asking, "Please put up my Official Website: www.officialcarrieprejeanwebsite.com". On most articles, this simply would be standard practice. It was put in and then taken out.

Sometimes it's not just what's in an article, but also what isn't (what's been kept out of it).

Put together, it kind of tells a story. -- Rico 06:32, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Why is this the only place you'll discuss the article? AniMate 08:55, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

You know I've been discussing it on the article talk page, because you've replied, "I'm just going to ignore ." -- Rico 06:21, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

This BLP was created primarily to disparage a living person:

• Sunday Night, April 19: Miss Prejean is asked for her thoughts on gay marriage and she gives them.
• April 20: Judge #8, the openly gay gossip blogger, contemptuously heaps disdain upon Miss Prejean, presumably to attract attention to himself. The gay/liberal press reports on this 'encyclopedic' fact.
• April 20 (in the USA): This attack page created, consisting primarily of Miss USA 2009 controversy -- about half of which was attacks from three gay rights activists (and the other half, the question and answer they were reacting to). -- Rico 06:21, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

Suggest does not equal dictate.

"I'm going to express my opinion right here whether you like it or not." Fine, I wouldn't stop you. I don't see what you're getting out of it, but go ahead.

Please cite where I questioned Rico's motives. (Note, there is a difference between asking for his motives and questioning his motives (an idiom). I don't care about his motives, I just don't think he's taking actions that will result in what he wants. And I can comment on that, and make suggestions, and you can't tell me not to! Nyah nyah to you! (See how childish that sounds?)

I do think taking things to Jimbo, unless they are truly large matters, is a waste of time. This isn't a slight on Jimbo by any means, I just think that he's got better things he'd rather do, and there are paths one could take that are more likely to give results.

I don't care about 99.99% of the articles or issues raised on Jimbo's page, nor should I. I'm not trying to clean up his talk page. The only reason I'm here at all (and it is a visit of mine that, without a very good reason, is going to end right after this post), is because an article I was warking on earlier was brought up here, and I wouldn't have known that a discussion has taken place here at all if it had nopt been mentioned at Prejean's talk page. (I hasn't watchlisted Jimbo's page until this came up, and I'm de-watchlisting it shortly.)

The Prejean article is not a "mastery of insight and NPOV balance" -- it still desperately needs work -- and I would prefer that you not ascribe such an over-the-top opinion to me. I haven't made any recent non-wikignome changes to it because I was waiting until AniMate finished his slicing and dicing on the article (and until I had an evening free to study it a bit) before possibly making changes. -- ArglebargleIV (talk) 20:45, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

I wrote the above in between compiles and test runs -- and yet another block by InaMaka addressed to me has appeared. To respond quickly, I thought back then the quote should be used exactly instead of paraphrased, and although I still don't think the quote is a NPOV or BLP violation, I've come to the conclusion that editorially, it isn't needed. If there was a national furor over a blogger calling Ms. Obama, Ms. Clinton, Ms. Pelosi, Ms. Bachmann, or Ms. Palin a "db", and I thought that the text of the quote was needed rather than a paraphrase, I would want it included (and, btw, why just include liberals in your rant at me, unless you're trying to insinuate something about my politics?). Furthermore, I am not upset about anything here (nor is there any indication of that), so save the over-the-top rhetoric for somebody else. Hilton's calling Prejean a "db" was distasteful, but to call it "hate speech" diminishes the phrase when needed to describe real hate speech. If you think that you need to put in positive things in and article to make it NPOV (and similarly for those who think that negative things must be added to any article to provide balance and NPOV), then you misunderstand NPOV. NPOV doesn't mean balanced positive/negative -- sometimes there are more positive notable things than negative, and vice versa. Note the word "notable" -- if something isn't sufficently notable, putting it in just for balance is a bad editorial decision and is against NPOV itself.

This is important -- please explain what you mean by "Bargle and AniMate have a direct conflict."

If you have anything further you wish for me to respond to, you can try my talk page or Talk:Carrie Prejean -- unless Jimbo asks me a question directly, I won't be responding further here, and I'm already deeply regretful that I've been here as long as I have.

I will agree with you in part though -- I'm coming to see that arguing with you here is a waste of time. Unless something changes, g'bye. -- ArglebargleIV (talk) 20:45, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

I understand exactly where you are coming from. On the Carrie Prejean talk page and in the Carrie Prejean edit summary comments it is clear that you have to have the "db" comments quoted word for word. The use of the quote word for word is inappropriate and it violates NPOV and BLP, as I have been stating for about one year. It is also what Rico has been saying. Why is it ok for Rico and I to comment on the Prejean talk page, but not here? The answer is simple. We get over-run over there by editors and admins who believe wrongly that it is ok for Misplaced Pages to quote word for word from the critics of living people. Hilton's speech is hate speech. It is offensive and as you say "over-the-top." It is NOT appropriate for an encyclopedia. We can simply point out the essence of Hilton's hatred and move on. Misplaced Pages does NOT have to stoop to the level of a distasteful, hate-filled blogger--who is looking to libel Ms. Prejean. So Hilton hates Prejean. We get it. We don't need to quote him word for word and as I pointed out above and you chose to ignore, the article quoted the phrase, at one point in time, "db" five times. That is the epitome of a coatrack. Now, the anti-Prejean editors, which you were part of at that time, felt the need to railroad the two or three editors that were attempting to enforce the BLP and NPOV rules. It was and has been a horrible article dedicated to bringing up everything negative about Ms. Prejean--rumours, lies, falsehoods and everything else. Misplaced Pages is supposed to treat living people with intelligence and respect. Simply removing the phrase "db" from the article was NOT censorship and Rico and I have been accused of censorship over and over again by the editors who only seemed intent on looking over for the viewpoint of Hilton. Is Hilton the only person in the world who has an opinion on Carrie Prejean? No. Why do Hilton's comments about Prejean dominate the article? I suggest that you don't understand NPOV. Carrie Prejean is a young woman who is many things and it is insulting and not encyclopedic to argue that the whole life history of Ms. Prejean has to be summed up according to the viewpoint of Hilton. That is like having President Obama's story presented on Misplaced Pages from the viewpoint of Hugo Chávez or President Bush's story presented from the viewpoint of Osama bin Laden. Hilton obviously do not like Prejean and his comments have dominated the article for about a year and each and every time that Rico or I have attempted to edit the comments to tone them down (I tried the words "derogatory" "prejorative") or move them (I attempted to the exact quote--even though I did not agree upon its use at all--to the footnote section) you and the other anti-Prejean editors reverted us--in a highly argumentative and rude manner I might add. Only now, while we are on Jimbo's talk page are we getting anywhere with a reasonable compromises to tone the language and bring in in compliance with NPOV and BLP--hopefully your newfound desire to compromise will continue long after we leave Jimbo's talk page. However, I did notice that while we were having this discussion there has been an anon editor who has attempted to re-instate the inappropriate "db" language.--InaMaka (talk) 21:56, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

My first reaction was that the biography "destruction of a living person opinion piece," violated NPOV in the extreme.

That's why I originally asked "why isn't it in there that Hilton called Carrie Prejean a 'dumb bitch,' or does that expose Hilton for what he is, rather than paint him as a thoughtful person"?

I was just asking questioning the bias.

Then I wrote, "Undue weight threatens to make Carrie Prejean and controversy -- and all that is negative about this living person -- one and the same." "All that is negative about this living person," presumably includes quoting the openly gay gossip blogger's opinion that "she's a dumb bitch" -- so you could say I've been saying that the use of the quote word for word is inappropriate, and it violates NPOV, since it's part of the undue weight.

All along, I've been saying that the "dumb bitch" quote is WP:IINFO -- like all of the quotations of his that are in the BLP.

You could say, that -- since BLP states, "Misplaced Pages is not news, or an indiscriminate collection of information" -- I've been saying it violates BLP policy.

But IINFO is part of What Misplaced Pages is not policy, and that's what I've been saying.

An openly gay gossip blogger -- a self-described, "queen of all media," that doodles the word "HO" on women's photos and draws dicks shooting cum on their faces -- called a former Miss California USA "a bumb bitch." So what?

I don't think we've been saying the same thing.

We just come to the same conclusion.

Judge #8's quotes are also recentism (as is the basis for declaring Miss Prejean notable enough for a Misplaced Pages article).

I see the attack coatrack as part of a bigger problem. If all we do is copy titilating yellow journalism into a BLP -- no matter what our motivations -- then our BLP's are yellow journalism too!

Isn't that what's in a tabloid, yellow journalism about people? -- Rico 05:06, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

Now answer me this.

(1) Carrie Prejean was a guest host of Fox and Friends. That was put into the article, but repeatedly deleted.

(2) Miss Prejean did an interview with Larry King -- but ended it when King tried to probe into an embarrassing area (that they'd agreed, beforehand, wouldn't be discussed).

That's in the article, squished into the masking section of her non-notable book.

What is more "notable", to use your word, a very brief interview or being the host?

The very brief interview made her look bad; being a guest host made her look good.

That's the way it's always been with this attack coatrack.

Any trivia that makes her look bad has been added to the article. Anything that's positive, has been deleted.

Why is it in the BLP that judge #8 said, "she gave an awful, awful answer"? He was a gay rights activist, so of course he didn't like her answer. Do you think it is notable to conservatives.. Republicans.. heterosexuals.. the mainstream.. that an openly gay gossip blogger -- a self-described, "queen of all media," that doodles the word "HO" on women's photos and draws dicks shooting cum on their faces -- didn't like a beauty pageant contestant's answer? -- Rico 04:19, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

It is a "truly large matter," that a certain demographic can be attracted -- in disproportionate numbers -- to a coatrack created primarily to disparage a 21-year-old college student, and then put and keep anything in it that makes the living person look bad, while keeping anything out of it that makes her look good.

Whenever I've googled "Carrie Prejean," her attack coatrack has always been the first result returned.

When I first discovered that this attack page had been created, I knew:

(1) A beauty pageant contestant had said that she thought that she believed that marriage was between a man and a woman, and the judge that had asked her -- what "do you think" -- reviled her (for attention).

(2) 'Reliable' source, The Huffington Post reported that the Miss California USA co-directors (both gay marriage advocates), said that Miss Prejean had gotten a boob job.

(3) A photo had been leaked of her modeling panties. It was called "risque", or "semi-nude", as if she was less "semi-nude" in the pageant.

Seeing that all three attacks were in the tabloid's encyclopedia's titillating, masked BLP1E, I labeled it a "destruction of a living person opinion piece."

I had no idea what was going on, but I learned soon afterwards that this was the goal.

From there, things went from bad to worse.

This makes people think Misplaced Pages's a joke -- and when people decide an encyclopedia's a joke, that's a "truly large matter" too. -- Rico 05:30, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

(unindent) this discussion seems to reflect a content dispute, and the statements, frankly, have gotten rather ridiculous. First of all, there isn't any reasonable dispute as to Prejean's notability. Even without the scandal she's notable for her beauty pageant award. But she's more notable for a series of enduring public scandals. Next, for a gossip blogger to call someone a "dumb bitch" is not hate speech as such, but it is crude, misogynistic, and arguably sexist. It isn't POV to report that Perez Hilton said it because Misplaced Pages is not endorsing the epithet. He had every reason to be upset at Prejean, and as subsequent events unfolded, Prejean turned out to be a problematic figure whose notability is largely related to her embarrassing public deeds - outlandish proclamations, becoming a spokesperson for intolerant groups, threatened lawsuits, claiming things that were clearly untrue, and so on. To call it "libel" to repeat this stuff is nonsense. If Misplaced Pages is going to report on what happened, this is what happened. Indeed, Misplaced Pages is not censored, so reporting that he called her a db is the way to do it, not beating around the bush to say he used an epithet. However, Hilton's outburst isn't terribly relevant or noteworthy with respect to Prejean's biography, so the problem (you can call it a BLP issue if you want) isn't the wording, but rather including this in the first place. Anyway, that is all a content issue, something well within the community's ability to deal with. - Wikidemon (talk) 06:13, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

No. That is simply not true. The article grew and grew with every piece of negative information that could be found by the anti-Prejean editors--to the point that "db" was quoted five times, anti-Prejean editors were calling Prejean a "child pornographer", etc. Dear Wikidemon: please do not re-write history. There was a point where the "db" wording was inserted into the article in FIVE different places. If you want to ignore that fact that is your choice but it does represent the situation accurately. There was one editor that wanted call her a "child pornographer". Also, once again, I will repeat that the biographies of living people ("BLP") need to be treated in a manner that Misplaced Pages is not libeling a living person and placing Misplaced Pages at legal risk. The anti-Prejean editors did not take BLP into consideration when they jammed the phrase "db" in the article in FIVE different places. Oh, by the way, "db" phrase is hate speech whether you want to acknowledge it or not. (What do you call it? "Love Speech"? Of course not.) There is no way that Misplaced Pages editors would repeat the comments of a blogger that called Michelle Obama, Hillary Clinton, Elizabeth Dole, Angelina Jolie, Gloria Steinem, Margaret Atwood, Angela Merkel, or Jane Goodall (and the list is endless) a "db". Basically, your argument is that since Ms. Prejean is not a woman of substance equal to the women mentioned above then Misplaced Pages editors can write an encyclopedia article about her that uses the "db" phrase five times because, well, Hilton said it. Basically you are arguing that since Prejean has engaged in less than admirable behaviour you and the other anti-Prejean editors can just pile on the article as many quotes from Hilton (someone who hates Prejean) and you can repeat the "db" phrase as many times as you want because it happened. Once again, it is unfair to write a biography about one person (Prejean) that is dominated by opinion of someone (Hilton) who obviously hates that person. A Misplaced Pages article that is used to repeat negative information about one person is called a coatrack and if that person is living then by definition it violates BLP. Let's say that there is 400 anti-Prejean editors and there are only two editors (myself and Rico) that are focused on the BLP issue. No, let's say that there are 4,000, no, 40,000 anti-Prejean editors working on the article and there is just one editor focused on BLP. Your argument is that the sheer number of editors wanting to jam the article with the "db" phrase and long repeats of Hilton's rant makes it perfectly fine to ignore BLP because so many editors want to quote Hilton and his hate speech extensively. Dear Wikidemon: I believe that Alexis de Tocqueville outlined a this delicate balance between the rights of the majority and the rights of the minority in free society many, many years ago. To quote the Misplaced Pages Tocqueville article: Tocqueville wrote of "Political Consequences of the Social State of the Anglo-Americans" by saying "But one also finds in the human heart a depraved taste for equality, which impels the weak to want to bring the strong down to their level, and which reduces men to preferring equality in servitude to inequality in freedom" in Volumes One, Part I, Chapter 3. He further comments on equality by saying "Furthermore, when citizens are all almost equal, it becomes difficult for them to defend their independence against the aggressions of power. As none of them is strong enough to fight alone with advantage, the only guarantee of liberty is for everyone to combine forces. But such a combination is not always in evidence.". To sum up, just because a large number of Misplaced Pages editors, and it does not matter if that large number is three or 300,000, want to jam a biography of a living person with negative, libelous material does not trump the rules of BLP.--InaMaka (talk) 15:02, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Wow, that's quite an outburst. It's unhelpful to look at things in terms of "pro-" and "anti-" editors, and your eagerness to assign me to a category suggests you've become far too close to the situation. You're throwing around accusations of libel and BLP violations without backing it up, and also putting lots of words in other people's mouths - basically caricaturing other people's statements in order to criticize them. Let's stick to article content (which should be discussed on the article talk page). If there are behavioral issues there are forums for that too, but either way here on Jimbo's talk page? Are we expecting Jimbo to jump in to arbiter the Prejean article as an exception to normal process? This is just a run-of-the-mill article about a minor public figure who got herself in trouble by her actions, it happens all the time. - Wikidemon (talk) 16:26, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Quoting Tocqueville in defense of Carrie Prejean? Wow. Yes this article grew as every piece of negative information came out about Prejean, because almost everything that came out was negative. It was a bloodbath outside Misplaced Pages. Some editors exercised less restraint that I would have preferred.--Milowent (talk) 15:20, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Thank you Milowent. You unwittingly made my point above. Basically, your point is "how dare you quote Tocqueville to defend a living person of Prejean low status. Don't you know that she is a peasant? We can treat peasant however we want, BLP can be ignored."--InaMaka (talk) 16:17, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Actually, I wittingly made my comment, and it was that quoting Tocqueville isn't going to persuade wikipedia editors about anything, but that your passion is evident from it.--Milowent (talk) 16:27, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

• I made a proposal on the talk page Talk:Carrie Prejean to shorten the lead of the article, which I'd ask people to weigh in on. Its typical in cases like this that the lead grows too long as events occur, and can be made shorter once the events are passed and the prime notable facts become discernable.--Milowent (talk) 16:09, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Why the Carrie Prejean article is being discussed on Jimbo's talk page

Many a editor that wants quote Prez Hilton's hate speech directly in the Carrie Prejean article believes it is ok to repeat Hilton's hate speech toward Prejean. They do not see the violation of BLP or NPOV or the dictate that Misplaced Pages is not a tabloid. Now, Rico brought the discussion over here because there was five different direct quotes of the hate speech for about a year. A group of editors refused to edit out the offensive, unnecessary quote. As a matter of fact the editors not only wanted to keep the five redundant quotes but wanted to add claims of child porn, etc.--even larger violations of NPOV and BLP. However, since Rico brought the discuss here the editors (which includes admins I might add) they have been cooperative in their discussion. However, today the madness has started again. An Admin named Nat Gertler has decided that he does not like me expressing my opinion that Hilton's comments amount to hate speech and he has decided to edit out my comments from the talk page. Now, this behaviour is amazing in that Gertler believes that Misplaced Pages MUST quote every hate-filled comment of Hilton but calling it hate is terribly unacceptable. Now, keep in mind that Hilton calls Prejean a "db" over one hundred times on his own page. Hilton is not embarrassed by his comments, but Admin NatGertler believes that I, as a Misplaced Pages editor, do not have a right to call Hilton's speech hate-filled--even though that is exactly what it is. Is it "love speech"? Of course not. You can review Admin Nat Gertler's attempt to shut me up here: Example of Admin Nat Gertler abusing his powers as an admin. It is truly the best argument for why the discussion is here in Jimbo's talk page. This type of bullying tactic has been prevalent for over a year.--InaMaka (talk) 19:03, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Excuse me, but that accusation is false on several levels: I am not an admin, I was not using the powers of an admin, and I was not abusing that power or any power, but rather following Misplaced Pages policy: Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced—whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable—should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion. You may think that the term you used just means someone saying something about someone they hate, but it has specific meaning particularly under the law. As for "Gertler believes that Misplaced Pages MUST quote every hate-filled comment of Hilton", no, that's something you made up. I beleive we should quote the specific two-word phrase that generated a lot of the response, because it's clear and well-sourced and gives context to explaining the strength of the response, which aided giving Ms. Prejean her visibility, and it is no longer than the vaguer descriptions of the insult that people have been replacing it with. But apparently, having this believe in clarity and precision makes me to blame for every other edit that you didn't like ever put on that article. --Nat Gertler (talk) 19:56, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

I apologize I misread your profile page. I was wrong. You are not an admin, HOWEVER you did remove valid, reliable sourced information. The famous columnist Liz Smith has called Hilton's rant against Prejean "hate speech" and I have been calling it that for over one year. --InaMaka (talk) 19:59, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Is columnist Liz Smith a legal expert? Otherwise, by the logic that some famous columnist made an accusation therefore we should treat it as true, we'd be using the "db" term to describe Prejean without attributing it. I have raised the issue over at WP:BLPN, which is probably the best place to raise your concerns. --Nat Gertler (talk) 20:08, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Wrong again. It does not matter if Liz Smith is a legal expert or not. Also, this is the absolutely best place to raise these concerns. Once again, I will state again the basic rules of Misplaced Pages and I quote Misplaced Pages's BLP policy directly below:

Subjects who are borderline notable

• WP:NPF

Misplaced Pages contains biographies of people who, while notable enough for an entry, are not generally well known. In such cases, exercise restraint and include only material relevant to their notability. Material from primary sources should not be used unless it has first been published by a reliable secondary source. Material published by the subject must be used with caution; see above. Material that may adversely affect a person's reputation should be treated with special care. In the laws of many countries, simply repeating the defamatory claims of another is illegal, and there are special protections for people who are not public figures. Any potentially damaging information about a private person may be cited if and only if: (1) it is corroborated by multiple, highly reliable sources; (2) the allegations are relevant to the subject's notability and; (3) the Misplaced Pages article states that the sources make certain "allegations", with the Misplaced Pages article taking no position on their truth.

Clearly Misplaced Pages makes it clear that we must use caution when Misplaced Pages repeats material that is defamatory. Hilton's comments are hate speech and we must use caution in repeating them.--InaMaka (talk) 21:22, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

We should also feel the need for caution before censoring and misrepresenting a topic. If Misplaced Pages or its contributors are sued for repeating allegations in reliable media sources, it may be distressing but it would not be embarrassing. Even the people of the UK are slowly making progress in repealing unjust libel laws.

But consider an article like the recently featured Insane Clown Posse, which scrupulously keeps mention of Juggalos to a minimum; with even the sub-article giving only a brief mention that police gang units all over the country have been describing "Juggalo gangs". I actually suspect the censored version is right on the topic, because face painting is probably just rather convenient for criminals - but we shouldn't be choosing the "right" side, we should be presenting both sides. The point is: what are we going to do when a grieving mother and her fancy lawyer show up, and she points at the Misplaced Pages page and says, "Johnnie showed me this and said there was nothing to worry about, so I let him go...<sob>...and that was the last time I saw him alive." I understand of course that all disclaimers apply, but if there is a deliberate and systematic effort throughout the organization to suppress all mention of unflattering media reports about people, Misplaced Pages will have neither moral nor legal ground to stand on. Wnt (talk) 18:06, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

I disagree with virtually everything you said here. You are wrong about the meaning of 'censorship', you are wrong about the law, and you are wrong about our ethical obligations. We have a very strong need for a sense of responsibility about biographies, and this includes being extremely careful about repeating irresponsible allegations uncritically, and in cases like this one, pretending to ourselves that a random smattering of negative media reports gives us sufficient information to be able to write a proper and ethically responsible biography.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 19:43, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

I've tried to advocate straight reporting of the sources available to us, but apparently the consensus really is against me. On Sarah Palin there will be no discussion of the idea that a mayor can be responsible for the rape kit policy of her appointed official. On Johnny Weir the GLBT WikiProject will not be allowed to place their tag because it is "negative", despite an RFC that apparently supported it. A user who did nothing more than things like highlight which parts of L. Ron Hubbard's naval service record form were faked for uploads to Wikicommons will remain topic-banned for life. So suppose I surrender. It is our responsibility to do the original research of comparing the sources and second-guessing which are true and which aren't and discard all but the ones that make sense to us.

In that case, let's at least not be bigoted or politically biased about it. It's time to fix the article Tiananmen Square protests of 1989#number of deaths and take out all of the unconfirmed allegations that make it sound like the living persons of the 27th Army conducted a mass murder. The various guesstimates from 6,000 to 10,000 dead by foreign intelligence agencies and commentators who say "no one really knows", out. The 2600 from the unidentified Chinese Red Cross official later denied by the agency - out. The Amnesty International figure of thousands then hundreds - out. Any such sources are unsubstantiated allegations we shouldn't be repeating. The only figure that matters is the 241 dead including soldiers, according to the Chinese government, the only source we should be citing. All others should be deleted, and 3RR does not apply.

And the Chinese deserve your apology, for trying to demand that they tolerate a level of free speech you would never try to uphold at home. Wnt (talk) 20:24, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Open an RFC if necessary

Quite simply, this is not the right forum for this discussion. Please move it somewhere more... appropriate. JBsupreme (talk) ✄ ✄ ✄ 06:55, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Quite simply, you don't like what is being discussed and you want to move the discussion, to control the debate. Free debate is a good thing and it will continue. Take care.--InaMaka (talk) 23:35, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

No, not exactly. You can discuss this on an RFC, just don't spam Jimbo's talk page because of this discussion. —MC10 (T•C•GB•L) 04:57, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Spamming is exactly what's happening here. In lieu of actual conversations or dispute resolution, RicoCorinth is coming to this talk page and leaving a message per day so this isn't archived. It would almost be funny, if the messages weren't full of bad faith accusations against editors who disagreed with him. AniMate 17:00, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Can we please shut this down? The tone of this discussion is becoming somewhat offensive, homophobia-wise. Reliable sources are reliable sources. Although there may be a reasonable debate to be had about the extent to which Misplaced Pages should cover events of a tabloid nature, if someone wants to propound theories about the so-called gay / liberal press, I don't think Misplaced Pages is the place for that. - Wikidemon (talk) 07:23, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

I didn't propound any "theories" about any "so-called gay / liberal press." I stated, "The gay/liberal press report on ." -- Rico 05:30, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

That is rather homophobic, blaming a news story on gays and liberals. Let's shut this down. Any objections (other than RicoCornith)? - Wikidemon (talk) 06:52, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

I didn't "blame a news story on gays and liberals." I wrote that the gay / liberal press reported on the contemptuous heaping of disdain upon Miss Prejean perpetrated by judge #8, the openly gay gossip blogger.

I didn't "blame" them for doing something wrong. I only wrote that they covered the story. -- Rico 04:19, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Wikidemon, at this point I think it is best to just let RicoCorinth continue to post his spam here. He refuses to actually discuss this with the editors he's in disagreement, and the daily posts here say much more about Rico than they do anyone else. Why Jimbo has allowed this soapboxing to continue is beyond me, but he hasn't commented on this issue in close to a month. I say let RicoCorinth continue his voluminous performance piece, and the rest of us can get back to editing the encyclopedia. Rico, the stage is all yours. AniMate 05:13, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

Agreed, thanks for the suggestion. It's well past the point of meaningful engagement. If it were my talk page I'd politely archive this borderline objectionable thread by hand. But if Jimbo chooses to allow the daily screeds it's not our place to insist otherwise. As long as we don't take the bait it won't be unduly disruptive - he can talk to himself every day as long as he wishes. - Wikidemon (talk) 06:27, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

Dangerous Virus Warning

There is a dangerous virus on the sandbox! Please remoce it AT ONCE! It is going to spread to the whole wikipedia!!!!Unreal engine 7 (talk) 10:42, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Uhm Jimbo

I guess your aware TheRegister.co.uk: Wikifounder reports Wikiparent to FBI over 'child porn' No real people pictured Weaponbb7 (talk) 14:34, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Mike Godwin's response--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:58, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

For all the people that are concerned about censoring things. This ] is why I have agreed with many other editors about some sort of image quality control. I again urge some sort of council or community wide discussion to work on this. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 16:10, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

While you're about it, you might like to review the video on my User page. Originally, it didn't show the middle frame, but the player software has been upgraded, which is unfortunate. The topic itself is serious. Stephen B Streater (talk) 16:42, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

One another reminder from WM CZ

Dear Jimbo, I am really sorry to disturb You again, but I have not got any mail from You, although You had promised writing a week ago, and my another reminder was archived without answer. Please confirm at least whether we should or should not count on Your help. Thank You. With regards, on behalf of Wikimedia Czech Republic, Okino (talk) 16:30, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Didn't Jimbo say he was out for a couple of weeks on a course? I think he has limited internet access for a few days. Stephen B Streater (talk) 07:30, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

He has had plenty of internet access in the week since he said he would respond to this request, evidenced by the fact that he used 6 out of the intervening 10 days to make edits to this page. If you look at the link Okino has posted, you will see that on the 4th Wales was already apologising for his tardy response, and promising to rectify the situation the following day, a promise which he has failed to honour. Weakopedia (talk) 08:34, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

"I should get to it" looks more aspirational than a promise. Perhaps your request needs more careful consideration than his other responses - you could take this as a compliment. Stephen B Streater (talk) 08:51, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

Afghan maps

Answered (some indications) there:

• commons:Commons_talk:Map_resources#I_need_some_advice

Yug (talk) 04:42, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

1. http://en.wikiquote.org/Alexis_de_Tocqueville