Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 14:58, 26 March 2010

This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Greece Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Greece, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Greece on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.GreeceWikipedia:WikiProject GreeceTemplate:WikiProject GreeceGreek Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. Europe This article is within the scope of WikiProject Europe, an effort to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to European topics of a cross-border nature on Misplaced Pages.EuropeWikipedia:WikiProject EuropeTemplate:WikiProject EuropeEurope ??? This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale. Dance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Dance, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Dance and Dance-related topics on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.DanceWikipedia:WikiProject DanceTemplate:WikiProject DanceDance WikiProject Dance To-do list: To nominate at WP:FAC: To improve to Featured standard: To nominate as a Good article: To expand: 18th century dance - 20th century ballet - Bolero - Choreography on Broadway - Dance education - English ballet - Indian classical dance - Italian ballet - List of dance companies - Meg Stuart - Opera ballet - Sasha Waltz - Scotch reel - Set dance - Physically integrated dance To cleanup: Contra dance - Salsa (dance) - Dandiya - Lead and follow To unbias: To check for copyvios: To merge: List of dancers and List of dance personalities‎ as per AfD discussion Substubs needing expansion: see /substubs To destub: Amir Hossain Babu - Canada Dance Festival - Dance etiquette - Flash dance - more Needing references: Chorus line - specifically verifying that each girl actually started out as a chorine To create: Broadway dance - Country Western Dance International - Dance and cinema - Dance and society - German folk dancing - Latin swing - Post-structuralist ballet - Push (dance) - Salon dance - Shuffle dance - Swing boogie - World Dance Alliance - Xavier Le Roy - more Wanted Pics/Graphics: Category:Dance articles needing images

It is requested that a photograph be included in this article to improve its quality. Wikipedians in Greece may be able to help! The external tool WordPress Openverse may be able to locate suitable images on Flickr and other web sites.

Upload

Is this Cham in Albanian

is this Cham in Albanian? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Keep it Fake (talk • contribs) 02:27, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Move back

I suggest this should be moved back to Tsamiko. For better or worse, these items are much better known in the English-speaking world under their Greek names than under the Albanian. This is no judgment on what is more "original" or which national tradition is more valuable, it just happens to be the case that Greek culture is better known abroad. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:26, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

This is not the albanian form, it is the English form of the name. It has no sense to bee in Greek, when it is not a originally Greek dance. In google, there are 39.000 hits with tsamiko, which means that this dance is not known worldwide. It should be proper to use the Albanian name, but since this is english wiki, the english name is fine.Balkanian`s word (talk) 20:36, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

But is it the English form? I have heard "Tsamiko" in English. I've never heard "Cham dance". In fact, checking on Google, it seems that "Cham dance" is the name of something entirely different, some Tibetan dance. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:12, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

I have heard cham dance in english. Tsamiko is just a rewording of "valle çame", the albanian word, so is nonsense to be the name of the dance.Balkanian`s word (talk) 07:18, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

I'm afraid it is not up to you to decide what is or isn't "nonsense" in English. Leave that to the English speakers. You seem still to be thinking that our usage should reflect what is more "original". It shouldn't. It should reflect what is more common, and only that. On that count, "Tsamiko" beats "Cham" by a very wide margin. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:43, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Which is the margin? valle çame in google has more than 100 thousand hits, tsamiko has less than 40 thousand hits.Balkanian`s word (talk) 08:16, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

How did you search that? Googling for "valle çame" (in quotes, of course) gives 15,900 hits for me; of the first few, more than half are actually the English word came in connection with some other meaning of valle and have no relation at all with this topic. Among the rest, many are pages in Albanian and thus irrelevant to the question of English usage. Try searching Google books too: Lots of entries for Tsamiko, including academic works as well as others; not a single one for either "valle çame" or "cham dance" (except for the Tibetan ones.) Fut.Perf. ☼ 08:52, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

SO, in your point of view, 39 thousand hits in google, and 35 hits in google scholar are notable, in order to be "the english version"?Balkanian`s word (talk) 09:20, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

It has nothing to do with notability. Notability is about whether the dance as such is notable enough to warrant an article (which I presume it does). What we are talking about is the name. Since there is no other contender for the "English version" that fares any better than "Tsamiko", yes, of course, that'll be the one. Your proposal of "Cham dance" boils down to simply inventing a name that nobody out there seems to be using. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:26, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

But tsamiko cannot be the "english version" since there are so little hits, most of which are just translations of greek pages, or videos. What I did in here, was that, since neither the greek, nor the albanian name is the "english version", as asked byt "WP use english", I made it in the english form of the word (which is cham). Tsamiko or Vallja Came is not popular in english, and the google test confirms it. Hence, "the dance of the chams" is normal to have a neme of the article which is "cham (dance)".Balkanian`s word (talk) 09:36, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

(undent) Look, an expression that you made up can never be "the English version". The English version is whatever English speakers use most often (or least rarely, if you like). The thing itself is pretty obscure in this case, so no expression for it will occur with high frequency, but among the rare occasions where English speakers do talk about this dance, they seem to be using Tsamiko, and not Cham dance, in the huge majority of all cases. Got it? – Sorry, but I'm getting a bit impatient now. I'm going to move it back in a few minutes, unless some really good new argument comes up until then. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:44, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

WOH? Google test showen thath they were too little. But try to see the results. The huge majority was youtube, greek pages, and only very few were english pages. This means that this is not the temr english use, it is the term greeks use, when they speak english, it is the same as "vallja çame", or in google. It is not true that this is the term used in english!Balkanian`s word (talk) 09:48, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

PS. You can prove it easily, wherever there is a page which speaks about the Tsamiko, it says that "Tsamides" were the creator. Hence, "cham" is the english term, it means that the users of "tsamides" and not of "cham", use even tsamiko, i.e. it is used by greeks in transleted-to-english pages.Balkanian`s word (talk) 09:50, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

End of discussion, this is not making any progress. I'm moving back. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:54, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Tsamiko is not the english version

Tsamiko is not the english version, as I pointed out in the previous disccussion and the move back by User:Future Perfect at Sunrise is unexplained. I propose moving the page to Vallja çame, or Cham (dance).Balkanian`s word (talk) 10:14, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Cham (dance) has been redirected to the real Cham Dance, the Tibetan one. When English speakers say "cham dance", they invariably mean that, and not the Balkanian one. Yet another reason why that title doesn't make any sense for this article. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:16, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

This does not mean that "Tsamiko" is the english version. If neither "cham dance" is the english version, than Vallja came is the most propriate.Balkanian`s word (talk) 10:18, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

You are repeating yourself, and not getting more persuasive all the while. Give it up already, this is not leading anywhere. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:19, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Again no answer! I am not giving up, as long, as I have arguments, and as long, as I know that I am right. Let me repeat myself clearly, in case that you have not seen the question: "Google test showen thath they were too little. But try to see the results. The huge majority was youtube, greek pages, and only very few were english pages. This means that this is not the temr english use, it is the term greeks use, when they speak english, it is the same as "vallja çame", or in google. It is not true that this is the term used in english! You can prove it easily, wherever there is a page which speaks about the Tsamiko, it says that "Tsamides" were the creator. Hence, "cham" is the english term, it means that the users of "tsamides" and not of "cham", use even tsamiko, i.e. it is used by greeks in transleted-to-english pages." Please answer!Balkanian`s word (talk) 10:23, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

For the millionth-and-fifth time: "cham" isn't the English name, because NOBODY FUCKING USES IT. Grow up. The world is as it is, not as you wish it to be. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:25, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

For the millionth-and-fifth time: I am not asking you if "cham" is the English name, but I am saying that Tsamiko is used by no English-speaker because NOBODY FUCKING USES IT. I am not talking about the "cham", i am talking about "tsamiko", which is used only by greeks, even in english pages.Balkanian`s word (talk) 10:28, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

This is simply not true. "Tsamiko(s)" is used by everybody in the literature who ever has occasion to talk about the dance. By the way, when we were reviewing the google pages, we both forgot that the actual Greek term is "Tsamikos", not "Tsamiko". Add the google results for "Tsamikos" to the others. Again, lots of entries on Google books, from international academic literature not in Greek or by Greeks. As opposed to ZERO hits for either of your versions. Really, show me at least one before you go on here. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:30, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

(undent). I have to concur with Fut. Perfect here. I've been folkdancing in North America, and am a Native Enlgish speaker. We call it Tsamiko, Not "Cham dance. You're simply wrong Balkanian, I'm sorry. Have a look at the dance lists of the several hundred folkdance clubs in North America (all widely available on the web) and you'll see that all English users use the term tsamikos, including to my knowledge all international folkdance teachers in North America and Britain.Comhreir (talk) 03:18, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Albania has been closed and backward for the last decades and greek emmigraton has distributed the greek version of the original dance . Don't you think it is time to put history back where it belongs and give the real history and legend of the dance where it belongs. As a reader inquiring for the dance I would be delighted to have more details and history of the dance in Misplaced Pages.(Lceliku (talk) 14:45, 11 November 2009 (UTC))

"Osman Taka"

Is "Dance of Osman Taka" really an alternative name for the dance as such (i.e. the pattern of steps and movements), or the name of a specific dance song associated with it (i.e. a specific melody?) I see it mentioned a lot in lists of songs. In that case we shouldn't include it as an alternative name of the dance, but can of course mention it as a representative example somewhere. In any case, I'm going to move it down to where "Kleftikos" is now; please let's not over-burden the lead sentence even more. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:02, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

No, it is the original name of the dance. Osman Taka, was a Cham Albanian, who according to the myth, managed to save his life, dancing to the sultans, in 17th century. Thus, Cham Albanians, called this dance the Dance of Osman Taka. Greeks and the rest of Albanians, saw this as a dance of Cham Albanians, and called it tsamiko, as other Albanians, called it cham dance. It is explained in the book "Folk dance of europe", but i`ll give you the reference later on.Balkanian`s word (talk) 11:05, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, but you didn't really answer my question: Is "Dance of Osman Taka" linked to a specific melody, as the references in various CD anthologies seem to suggest? If I dance the Tsamiko steps to some other melody, like Papalabraina or Enas Aetos, would that still be "Osman Taka"? Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:15, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

No its the original name of the dance. What is called by greeks "tsamikos", and by the rest of albanians(exept chams) "vallja came", by cham albanians is called "vallja e osman takes" (at least traditionally, cause most of muslim chams now are fully integrated to albanian cultura and may use "vallja came" as an alternative name, for their original "vallja e osman takes").Balkanian`s word (talk) 11:21, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Maybe I'm dumb, but I think you still haven't answered my very simple question. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:23, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

I think I was clear: "tsamikos" (greece)= "vallja came" (albania) = "vallja e osman takes" (cham albanians). "Enas aetos" is a song, which greeks say it is "tsamikos", albanians (exept chams) say it is "valle came" and chams say it is "valle e osman takes".Balkanian`s word (talk) 11:27, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

But that doesn't match the description in the book you cited (), because it clearly describes "Osman Taka" as something involving a specific text, not just any other song with the same dance steps. And, as I marked in the article, you'll have to source your claim of it being the "original" name. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:36, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

(undent) This   addition does not support the claim you are trying to make. The source is not saying "Osman Taka" is the "original" name. In fact, I don't know what the source is saying, because the way you quoted it it is ungrammatical. Some mistake in copying? Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:39, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Ok I`ll cite the whole paragraph. The Dance of Osman Taka is the same as Tsamiko, and this is proved here. It says that the "dance known in Southern Albania as "Dance of Osman Taka" and in Northern Greece as "Tsamiko". This means that this is the same dance with 2 different names. As for the "original", I am copying the whole paragraph.Balkanian`s word (talk) 11:43, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Look, try to listen to what I'm saying. That very same source (Balkan Border Crossings, talks on the next page of "the text that accompanies the dance". "Tsamiko", as such, is not associated with a specific text or story. If "Osman Taka" has a text, then it is not the same as "Tsamiko", it is an instance of Tsamiko. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:47, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Reading it, I think that it explains what "dancers think about it", in specific occasions (the festivals in Saranda and Gjirokastra). I do not understand what is the problem here. I really don`t get it.Balkanian`s word (talk) 11:54, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

You really don't, do you. The book is talking about "O.T." in the sense of it being a specific song (a text plus a melody), not in the sense of it being a dance (a pattern of body movements). "Tsamiko" is a dance. "O.T." is a song (that can be danced as a Tsamiko). It's like claiming that "The Blue Danube" is another word for "waltz". The one is an instance of the other, but not the same as the other.

And your additions to the other quotation have yet neither provided the basis for your "original" claim, nor have they removed the grammatical error. If that's what the source actually says, it's worthless gibberish. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:02, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

I don`t see, were in the first reference, it speaks about the song, and not the whole "dance". And the second source, clearly states that "The Dance of Osman Taka", became known outside Cham Albanians later on and by other names, which clearly menas, that this name was the first one, or original.Balkanian`s word (talk) 12:08, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

As for the gramatical errors, the author calls Chameria as Çamërie, Himara as Himare and Kleftiko as Klephtico. I copy paste it.Balkanian`s word (talk) 12:11, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

If you can't see, then read it again until you see it. "Tsamiko" is only and exclusively a dance. If you think of some "whole dance" in the sense of steps+melody+text, it cannot possibly be the same as Tsamiko. -- As for your other quote, there are two bits in it that would be relevant, but they are both marred by either incorrect grammar or incomplete quoting: "...call it a variation of a much older dance..." (syntactically incoherent, what's the "it" doing there? Did you even spot the error?), and "...under its new name..." (but you left out the bit in between where it says what "new name" is actually being talked about.) So there's no way I can verify what that source actually says. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:16, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

By the way, from the few scraps I get of the book text on books.google, it appears to me that it is presenting "O.T." and "Tsamiko" as two different entries? And yes, you did quote the beginning wrong. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:35, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

On the first book:
1. It speaks about the traditon of Tsamiko.
2. Tsamiko in tradition was a dance to show the "mythistory".
3. Tsamiko is danced with music.
4. In tradition, the music which is danced as tsamiko, has a text. 5. THIS IS NOT LIMITED.
E.g. Another albanian dance "The dance of the swords" is created to show the brevary of the men and in tradition was without music. Today there are songs, with the bit of the dance of th swords, the text of which speaks about love

On the second book:
1. it is "call this a variation of a much older dance" my fault.
2. The part I left apart, tells about the history of Osman Taka, the history that I explained above. At the end, it says that, Osman Taka was executed, and does not say anything about any new name.
3. It is clear thet the new name, which he implies, is the "arvanitic dance", "tsamiko", "kleftiko", "himariotiko", "vallja came", which he explains in the next paragraph.

I may be really dum, but I cannot understand where is the problem in here.Balkanian`s word (talk) 12:40, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

No, this is the entry about Tsamiko. After he explaines the dance, he speaks about the history, and thus, starts with that paragraph about the dance of Osman Taka.Balkanian`s word (talk) 12:45, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

About the first book: Yes, Tsamiko is danced with music. But not exclusively with one specific piece of music. In Greece, it can be danced with any number of different songs, with different texts and totally different melodies, which just need to have the same rhythm. "O.T." is one specific song with one text and one melody. So, today, at least in Greece, the words "Tsamiko" and "O.T." mean two different things.

About the second: this seems hardly possible. Right in the paragraph before he introduces "O.T.", he is talking about a dance in 2/4 meter with steps "slow-quick-quick". But that's not Tsamiko. Greek Tsamiko is a slow 3/2. That paragraph must be talking about a totally different dance. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:59, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Ok, I don`t know whats happening. I read in the first book that the same dance in albania is called the dance of osman taka and in greece, tsamiko. "The second one tells the same thing. I don`t understand whats the problem.

What about this: Çamçe is known among Çamë as a men’s dance, which is also named after independence fighters like “Osman Taka” or “Isuf Arapi”, whose acts have left strong traces in the community’s memory." Bulgarian Institute for Albanian Studies?Balkanian`s word (talk) 13:34, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

You really should learn to go easy on those relative clause joiners. In most cases, they make less sense than you seem to think. – By the way, how reliable a source is that "Folk dance" book anyway? It may be nice for describing actual dances, but their history? The book doesn't even get the name of those people right ("...the region of Tsamidon..."); how good can it possibly be about history? In fact, can there possibly be a history of these dances at all? What were their "original" names, who called them by what name when, who borrowed what from whom at what time – it takes not just a "reliable source" to write about such things, it takes a clairvoyant. Because, in most cases, histories of non-written folk culture items older than a century or so will be not just unknown, but in principle unknowable. What kinds of research and what kinds of empirical evidence does that book cite in support of its claims? Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:43, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Removed! You`re right!Balkanian`s word (talk) 13:58, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

redirecting

There was a consensus on this page about the name. I do not know if Sarandioti has any argument for this redirecting. If yes, please state it. Otherwise it should be redirected to Tsamiko, or to another form.Balkanian`s word (talk) 20:38, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

I really don't know why a name can also mean 'de facto' origin, some guys had lot of imagination about this article. Actually there is not a single book saying that 'Tsamiko' is also danced in Albania (or it's of Albanian origin). Other examples are the 'Serviko' (of Serbian origin?), 'Hasaposerviko' (Serbian butchers origin?), Zeibekiko (of Turkish irregular's origin?), Rebetiko (of turkish rebels origin?). If you wanna give arguments bring books to prove them.Alexikoua (talk) 13:04, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

No sources found that describe an Albanian/Cham link with Tsamiko, apart from the etymology itself. Seems that this exact dance isn't danced by albanians/chams at all. Additional sources are welcomed.Alexikoua (talk) 10:37, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Usually as a rule of the thumb the name means origin. Example Americans speak English even if you could argument that what they speak is so different from UK English as Swedish is from Norwegian.--Lceliku (talk) 00:30, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Surprise

I would have never thought that the Greek National Anthem was taken from a Cham Dance and the Greek National wear and fustanella from the Albanian Chams. Hmm interesting. I will see if I can include the adjustment of Greek Nathional anthem Wiki section in my future projects. For the moment will only try to get some more references.--Lceliku (talk) 18:35, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

The Greek national anthem isn't a Tsamiko. It's a tune in the style of a 19th-century Italian operatic march, which just happens to be in 3/4 meter. Its actual rhythm isn't particularly Tsamiko-like, and it's usually played significantly faster than a typical Tsamiko dance, but I suppose that like any other 3/4 tune you can turn it into something danceable as a Tsamiko if you twist the performance a bit – just like you could turn it into a Waltz. Note that the only feature that links it to a Tsamiko is the 3/4 meter – which is exactly the most notable feature that the Greek Tsamiko dance does not share with its native Albanian/Cham counterparts (which are apparently 2/4). Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:54, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Thank you it is clear. Just a question; couldn't it just have evolved in time (e.g. like American English to the Original English language but it is still called English and there is no doubt it has originated from UK), so the Tsamiko originated from the Cham Albanians and then developed the 3.4 meter in stead of the 2.4 meter in the Cham counterpart ? I am Canadian and in the French spoken in Quebec I could find as many 3.4 meteres as you want to justify it is not French but another language but we still call it French , if you see what I mean. But anyways I am not an ethnographist or historian and only 40 years old, so I will leave it up to you professionals.--Lceliku (talk) 05:19, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

Picture

I'll add a 19th century painting that depicts some guys dancing Tsamiko, next days. Perhaps posting personal stuff in here isn't a good idea at all.Alexikoua (talk) 14:22, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

• All unassessed articles
• Start-Class Greek articles
• Low-importance Greek articles
• WikiProject Greece general articles
• All WikiProject Greece pages
• Unassessed Europe articles
• Unknown-importance Europe articles
• WikiProject Europe articles
• WikiProject Dance articles
• Misplaced Pages requested photographs in Greece