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Tang Dynasty

I have engaged a procedure for amending Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Tang Dynasty.

• See Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Amendment#Request to amend prior case: Tang Dynasty.

Naturally, the process requires me to notify you. --Tenmei (talk) 00:59, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

DYK nom for 2009 Barack Obama visit to China

Hello! Your submission of 2009 Barack Obama visit to China at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and there still are some issues that may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) underneath your nomination's entry and respond there as soon as possible. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! ~SuperHamster Talk Contribs 04:28, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

There are some problems again; could you have another look? Ucucha 00:25, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Deng Yujiao incident

I've read over the entire article today, and looked at its Chinese counterpart. There seems to be extreme divergence between the two articles. The Chinese Wiki page discusses three separate versions of the event as presented by police on three different days as the case unfolded, and I think this would be useful on the English wiki as well. Up for a bit of translating? Colipon+(Talk) 02:46, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

I agree with you that the Chinese version is more comprehensive than the en:wiki, however, it is quite clear to any reader that the Chinese police do not enjoy any credibility in this case, and I do not agree with your comment "extreme divergence between the two articles". Arilang 15:20, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

Agreed, but from the changes in the police position as the case unfolded it is more easily discernible just exactly how they chose to handle the case. Misplaced Pages isn't about the truth. It's about offering information from all sides of the spectrum, and police reports in this case, are more than relevant. Colipon+(Talk) 17:01, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

You may be interested in this followup article from Nanfang. Ohconfucius 06:18, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Request

Ever thought about doing an article for the Lin Jiaxiang incident, about the official who attempted to assault an 11-year-old girl in Shenzhen? Thought you would be interested. It also caused uproar to a scale similar to that of the Deng Yujiao incident, although it happened almost a year ago now. Colipon+(Talk) 23:12, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

Colipon, thanks for your suggestion, but compare to Deng's case, the Lin Jiaxiang case just does not have that immense impact, and the outcome is different, in the way that the Chinese court was involved. I think the Lin Jiaxiang case had never made it to the court.

Talking about court case, the Jiang Zemin case is gaining momentum. Should we co-write a wiki on it? Looks like it is the Spain's monarch against the all mighty PRC? Arilang 01:14, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

My suggestion for the Jiang case is for us to write it into the body of that article under a new section called "post-presidency" or some such. Until it gains some more notability I would hesitate on creating a totally new article on it (if you notice "Barack Obama visit to China" is up for deletion). Jiang also seems to be a mortal enemy of Falun Gong and various other human rights groups, and that should receive its due coverage on the article. I would be happy to help along that vein.

Police rejected Lin Jiaxiang's "child molestation" charges, saying there was no direct evidence of "activities of a sexual nature". But the case in itself is rather interesting, not to mention inconclusive. But he was sacked. The reason for its notability is that it very publicly exposes what is a commonplace practice with Chinese officials - committing a crime and then flaunting his status, then when that doesn't work, offering a bribe, covering up the evidence etc. Colipon+(Talk) 01:49, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

To begin with, Lin Jiaxiang was allegded to have attack the child in some way, yes, he did do some nasty thing to the child; but exactly what he did was not clear, when compared to Deng Yujiao, she did cause a death, using a knife. I don't think the Lin Jiaxiang incident would pass a AfD. Arilang 17:08, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free image File:Huang Dejie was injured with knife wound when attacking Deng Yujiao.jpg

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Comparison between Roman and Han Empires

You are invited to participate at the AFD Teeninvestor (talk) 00:51, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

AfD nomination of Comparison between Roman and Han Empires

An editor has nominated one or more articles which you have created or worked on, for deletion. The nominated article is Comparison between Roman and Han Empires. We appreciate your contributions, but the nominator doesn't believe that the article satisfies Misplaced Pages's criteria for inclusion and has explained why in his/her nomination (see also Misplaced Pages:Notability and "What Misplaced Pages is not").

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File source problem with File:Weng'an riot5 crop.jpg

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Economic history of China

Hey Arilang add me as an email contact. Also, would you like to take a look at Economic history of China (pre-1911) FAC, which you worked on? Thanks.

Economic history of China (pre-1911) looks awesome, must have taken you a lot of time. However, currently I have spend more time on modern history such as Korean War etc.

My e-mail address:licolnwashington1234@hushmail.com. Arilang 23:20, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Files_for_deletion/2009_December_19

Hello, a user has gone ahead and deleted many photos despite the fact that all votes were "keep" or "strong keep." How shall we proceed? Badagnani (talk) 05:24, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Please contact a admin and ask for help. Arilang 05:37, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Killing Foriegners

Hi Arilang;

I found the original source for your great image -- it's a classic! But it turns out that it was published in 1861, so I'm wondering if there's a direct connection with the so-called Boxers. Should we take it down from that article? Cheers for the New Year. ch (talk) 18:56, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

Happy New Year to you too. About the image, even though it was published in 1861, still it helps to show that the Manchus were very much anti-Westerners, hence Boxers(who were mainly of Han) were actually encouraged by the Manchus to kill the foreginers. The Pig and Goat in the picture also had further meanings. Pig is 猪, which sounds like 主, in 耶蘇救世主, as oppose to the Emperor, or 皇帝. Goat is 羊, same like 洋. So the picture helps to explain that the Manchus not only were anti-Westerners, they were also anti-Jesus. Arilang 23:07, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

Unreferenced BLPs

Hello Arilang1234! Thank you for your contributions. I am a bot alerting you that 1 of the articles that you created is tagged as an Unreferenced Biography of a Living Person. The biographies of living persons policy requires that all personal or potentially controversial information be sourced. In addition, to ensure verifiability, all biographies should be based on reliable sources. If you were to bring this article up to standards, it would greatly help us with the current 17 article backlog. Once the article is adequately referenced, please remove the {{unreferencedBLP}} tag. Here is the article:

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DYK nomination of War of Internet Addiction

Hello! Your submission of War of Internet Addiction at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and there still are some issues that may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) underneath your nomination's entry and respond there as soon as possible. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! Bradjamesbrown (talk) 03:19, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free image File:Xu Zhiyong on Esquire cover.jpg

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DYK for War of Internet Addiction

On February 11, 2010, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article War of Internet Addiction, which you created or substantially expanded. You are welcome to check how many hits your article got while on the front page (here's how, quick check ) and add it to DYKSTATS if it got over 5,000. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Calmer Waters 06:01, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

Five Constituencies Referendum

I find the "Post-resignation" section of the Five Constituencies Referendum fragmented and unorganized. There are currently 6 subsections under it which can be confusing to read. This structure is also unsustainable: if 100 politicans come out and comment on the referendum in the next 3 months, we will have over 100 subsections! I suggest placing "Respond from Donald Tsang" under "Response from Hong Kong government officials" and placing "Democracy gathering" and "Response from Alan Leong" into one subsection of "Actions and comments from the pro-democracy camp". This should make the article more organized. What do you think?Craddocktm (talk) 09:07, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

I agree with you, please go ahead. Since the HK government's political stance is very clear(boycott of the by-election), may be the subsection can be re-named as such? Arilang 10:33, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

RfC/User on PCPP

Hello. Please be aware that I have opened an RfC about the conduct of PCPP (talk · contribs). --Asdfg12345 01:54, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

File:Ledo Burma Roads Assam-Burma-China.gif

Hi. Can you tell me the exact location of the magnificent zigzag road in this image you uploaded last year? Regards, JohnCD (talk) 15:36, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

Chinese

I doubt that theory. I'm pretty sure that without the manchus' repression of science and liberalism in China, China would have developed the industrial revolution much faster than Europe. Until roughly 1700 the Chinese were still the most powerful, richest and advanced country.Teeninvestor (talk) 16:32, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

Hi Arilang! Nice to see you again after my very long Wiki break. As for this conversation, let's say hypothetically that the Manchus failed to invade China proper and the Ming or some other native Han dynasty remained until the 20th century. Then ask the question: was there any sign in late Ming society that would hint at the origin or development of an industrial revolution in China? In Ming China (and early Qing China before the introduction of Western-style factories and machinery), there was a wide variety of simple and sometimes complex devices used for commodity manufacturing and agriculture. To see many examples of this, look at the Tiangong Kaiwu (天工開物) published by Song Yingxing in 1637, which lists and explains a multitude of China's greatest technological advances up until that point. Despite this, however, heavy machinery remained in limited and marginal use by Chinese artisans and agriculturalists who continued to rely heavily on physical labor and manpower for production of commodities and agricultural produce. Why? Think about it: what is China's greatest resource? People. Centuries before the wonders of the industrial revolution, China was producing common and even luxury goods on a massive scale because it had the manpower to do it and very sizable consumer population which was relatively well-off by premodern standards. The only thing comparable in Europe during the Middle Ages and the early Renaissance was perhaps the workshops of northern Italy controlled by the rich maritime powers of Venice and Genoa (ancient Europe was a different story, considering the Roman Empire). In Early Modern Europe, where manpower was not always the greatest resource on hand, there was a real incentive to invent and create machines which could reduce labor costs as well as speed the rate of production rapidly. This is perhaps a really simplistic view, lacking nuance since I'm trying to make a quick point, but it is actually at the core of how the Industrial Revolution began in Western Europe.--Pericles of Athens 22:07, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

It is good to talk to you again, I hope you enjoy every minute of your time in China. Below is what I had posted at Teeninvestor's talk page:

http://wikilivres.info/%E6%9D%A8%E6%8C%AF%E5%AE%81%E6%8C%87%E7%82%B9%E4%B8%AD%E5%9B%BD%E4%BC%A0%E7%BB%9F%E6%96%87%E5%8C%96%EF%BC%9A%E4%B8%AD%E5%8C%BB%E5%92%8C%E3%80%8A%E6%98%93%E7%BB%8F%E3%80%8B%E7%BB%93%E5%90%88%E6%B2%A1%E6%9C%89%E5%89%8D%E9%80%94

归纳与推演都是近代科学中不可缺少的思维方法。为说明此点让我们看一 下Maxwell（1831-1879） 创建Maxwell方程的历史。Maxwell是十九世纪最伟大的物理学家，他在十九世纪中叶写了3篇论文，奠定了电磁波的准确结构，从而改变了人类的历 史。二十世纪所发展出来的无线电、电视、网络通讯等等，统统都基于Maxwell方程式。Maxwell's equations

• 第一，《易经》影响了中华文化中的思维方式，而这个影响是近代科学没有在中国萌芽的重要原 因之一，这也是我之所以对于《易经》发生兴趣的原因。
• 第二，《易经》是汉语成为单音语言的原因之一。
• 第三，《易经》影响了中华文化的 审美观念。

Well, without ABC and 12345, there is no way the Chinese could ever develope the all important equations.

PoA, put it this way, serious "Science" is mathematic, which is about E=MC(square), formula, equations, two dimensions, three dimensions, and when Chinese did not develope ABC, abc, xyz, + -, it is naturally that Chinese could not develope "serious science". Arilang 22:42, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

PoA, let's talk a bit more on the point you raised:

let's say hypothetically that the Manchus failed to invade China proper and the Ming or some other native Han dynasty remained until the 20th century. Then ask the question: was there any sign in late Ming society that would hint at the origin or development of an industrial revolution in China?

My answer is NO. Even if the Ming, or Song, were given another 2000 years of evolution, as long as the Confucius system stay the same, the 漢字 stay the same, neither Renaissance, nor industrial revolution will begin in China. The main reasons:

• (1)仕農工商=(a)scholar-bureaucrats, (b)farmers, (c)handcraft man, (d)merchants. For thousands of years, "Merchants" stay at the bottom of the social class, because the Emperor, the Confucius system, would never let any merchants to become rich and powerful, in order to prevent any future challenger.
• (2)The Han language, is the language belongs to 皇權, or 君權. For example, the core of the Confucius system is 天地君親師 (a)天=Heaven, (b)地=earth, (c)君=ruler/emperor, (d)親=parents, (e)師=teacher. PoA, in the old times, even now, to some extent, a "good" Chinese must conform to the above FIVE powers. You can imagine how tough life can be. There is an old Chinese saying:一日為師,终身為父. Translation:The life-long respect a student would show to a teacher, should be same like his respect towards his father. In short, the human beings that come out of the Confucius system, would not be the same human beings you see in the ancient Greece, ancient Maya, ancient Indians, or ancient Phoenicians. So my conclusion:No Renaissance, no industrial revolution for the Chinese. Arilang 14:32, 13 March 2010 (UTC)

Pericles, I doubt your argument. Up until around 1700, the machinery used by Chinese, although simplistic by modern standards, exceeded anything comparable in Europe. In fact, if you read the work of Joseph Needham (which I'm sure you have), much of what Europe had produced was copied from the classical world or ideas from China up til about 1500. In terms of population, I don't think labor was any more abundant in China than in Europe, (for example, Europe in 1300 had a population of 70-80 million, which was roughly equal to the population of early Ming China, despite a much lower technological level; it was not until roughly the late Ming that the population of China vastly exceeded that of Europe). And even if it were so, population density is important because without a huge, concentrated consumer market, no amount of manufacturing or any other complex economy would develop because of lack of markets, and the country would revert to self-sufficient farming. In order for heavy manufacturing to develop, there is, besides the existence of a market, also a need for a massive labor force that is not self-sufficient and looking for work, and a free society that allows capital accumulation and free exchange. A large labor force would not necessarily discourage machine improvements because the increased wealth of the workers would allow a bigger market for machinery, which drives innovation(in fact, the lack of a labor force would discourage it). There is always a strong desire to save on labor costs, as long as the economy is growing (Another key fact that supports this hypothesis is that the industrial revolution in Britain was preceded by a population explosion, which according the lack-of-labor hypothesis should have "stinted" growth). In this regard, Song and Ming China had all three of these pre-requisitates as their technology and markets had developed to a point where the self-sufficient economy was being displaced. However, with the conquest of the Manchus, a rigid class system developed along with a regime that discouraged technological advancement (in fact, one could say that Chinese civilization reached it's height in the early seventeenth century). In Europe, by contrast, up to around 1450 serfdom restricted the mobility of the labor force as well as the merchant class, and the development of the absolutist states (much more oppressive than in China) stinted development until around 1700. European Kings such as Louis XIV established oppressive state monopolies, guilds and protective tariffs (almost as oppressive as the modern regulatory state) that exceeded anything found in China, even under the Manchus. This stinted continental development. Only England, which after 1700 was relatively free of these oppressive statutes and which was also close to a key source of raw materials (coal), was capable of developing the industrial revolution. As for Arilang's argument, Chinese society did not repress able individuals or expropriate wealthy merchants and landowners, as had happened in the Ottoman Empire or 17th-century France; therefore, the conditions for success existed. Any society can and will develop to the point of industrial capitalism, as long as they are not stinted by terrible natural conditions that cause high time preference or oppressive institutions like feudalism or an overly large state.Teeninvestor (talk) 17:15, 14 March 2010 (UTC)

In Europe they developed the methods and philosophy of science. It has been argued that a belief in one god allowed science to look for a logical set of rules set down by that god rather than trying to describe the word based on which deity was winning or losing or which spirits were causing what. I don't know enough about ancient Chinese philosopies to comment, but I do ask the question: Did China have the philosophy of science and the scientific method? Did it include the sharing of discoveries across the empire simply for the sake of expanding knowledge (science for science's sake)? Readin (talk) 17:10, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

user:Readin, the root of the problem has to be the use of Sinograph instead of the alphabets.

1. In the old times(even now, to some extent), to be educated is a prestige, and an educated person has the chance to become a bureaucrat. Now an educated person needs to memorize 3000-4000 Sinograph, or pictogram. Now, a western person's brain needs to process the shuffling of 26 alphabets plus some ,.+-/<>1234567890, which are all abstract symbols, compare that to a Chinese brain that needs to shuffle 4000 pictograms, some of which have intricate and complicate structure, by then the Chinese wouldn't have too much energy to do any more "creative" activities.
2. As any science student would easily find out, the fundamental, the corner stone of modern science is mathematics, when in 4000 years Chinese had never develope +-/<>1234567890 and need to import them just about 100 years ago, it is no wonder that Chinese is so far behind the western in many ways.
3. In a bombshell, the thing that all the Chinese is so proud of, the Sinograph, is exactly the thousands years old spell that kept the Chinese in a perpetual vortex. Wouldn't you agree? Arilang 21:45, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

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Created an article on Liu Wencai

Hi, I've created an article on Liu Wencai, feel free to add any other source you have.--PCPP (talk) 13:02, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

PCPP

There is a currently an RfC on PCPP. You may wish to contribute based on your experiences (positive or negative) editing with him.--Asdfg12345 06:48, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

Quit canvassing, ok?--PCPP (talk) 12:15, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Unless you can substantiate your assertion that many people say he's a member of the 50 Cent Party, I suggest that you should withdraw it, it could loosely be construed as a personal attack. The only comment to that effect I have seen is from a dedicated Falun Gong SPA - one of the ones who filed the case - an unreliable figure, if you ask me. Ohconfucius 03:24, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

50c party

User Ohconfucius, people of 50 Cent Party just doing their job, there is nothing "Personal" about it, after all, they get paid in some ways. Consider there are probably 300,000 of them, I don't see anyone should be so shameful that they like to hide. There is nothing to be ashamed of. Arilang 03:47, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

I think it's a reasonable speculation, given CCP'sPCPP's edit history. One of his early edits is "neutralising" the intro on Mao. With several hundred thousand puppets to send out into the internet wilderness, I'd just be surprised if it was only one that had arrived at wikipedia.--Asdfg12345 04:41, 25 March 2010 (UTC)