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I see that some of the editors opposing characterizing Shahaf as such have since been censured, limited or blocked. As there has recently been increased activity on the ] article, and Shahaf's investigation is a fulcrum for much of the editing, it is time to reassess this article. Sources should be cited inline to comply with ] of course. For starters, I suggest adding information on Shahaf's conspiracy theory on the death of ]. Respectfully, ] (]) 14:29, 27 February 2010 (UTC) | I see that some of the editors opposing characterizing Shahaf as such have since been censured, limited or blocked. As there has recently been increased activity on the ] article, and Shahaf's investigation is a fulcrum for much of the editing, it is time to reassess this article. Sources should be cited inline to comply with ] of course. For starters, I suggest adding information on Shahaf's conspiracy theory on the death of ]. Respectfully, ] (]) 14:29, 27 February 2010 (UTC) | ||
:Not sure that sources that only criticize him and neglect to actually review what he is saying count as 'adding info'. Anyways, if the critique is notable (usually several people discussing the same issue) - we can merge their critique into a small 1-4 lines (size pending on content's encyclopedic value for a bio). | |||
:p.s. I'm fairly unsure about the "fulcrum for much of the editing" statement. Shahaf was oneballistics expert while another French individual validated the same conclusions. His other suggestions, best I'm aware, were also picked up by more than one external person. If the only reason to add input on conspiracy theories Shahaf suggested could exist and should be questioned is to harm his credence for the al-durrah article (and I'm not saying this is the intention), then that could lead to a bad style for constructing the material and a BLP vio indeed. We should keep in mind that this is still a bio and issues need to be listed based on real notability and not a POV boost to a side issue of a notable case (al-durrah). | |||
:Warm regards, <b><font face="Arial" color="teal">]</font><font color="1F860E"><sup>'']''</sup></font></b> 23:49, 27 February 2010 (UTC) |
Revision as of 23:49, 27 February 2010
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Recent fact tag
The information is cited in the given source but perhaps the phrasing is the cause for concern? I'm open to suggestions and even some form of omission to resolve this issue. Jaakobou 00:11, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
- What, the Hebrew source? I and most other people here can't check that one I'm afraid. And the problem as far as I'm concerned is that if someone was indead a leader in their field, you would expect a lot more coverage of them and their achievements in mainstream or specialist sources. These simply don't appear to exist for Shahaf. The wider problem is that this article is being used as a booster for content in the al-Durrah article. Shahaf is cited there as a major proponent of the hoax/staged theory; readers may then come here to find out more about him, and discover that he is supposedly a well-known and high-profile scientist and general expert on everything, who turned that expert and dispassionate gaze to the al-Durrah issue and has now exposed the truth about that sordid little episode in Palestinian mendacity. It is really not clear that this is the case in the real world. --Nickhh (talk) 10:08, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
- Specialist sources: Personally, I don't have access to the air-force unmanned crafts industry files but if you've gone over them and vouch that they indeed have nothing suggesting he was a leader in the industry, then I will accept your testimonial. If your statement was not based on review of the sources, however, then I suggest this argument be either explored or dropped.
- al-Durrah issue: Would a translation in the reference satisfy your source related concern or would you prefer we omit this information because it somehow affects the al-Durrah case? I'm not sure there is support for the latter in Misplaced Pages policies.
- With respect, Jaakobou 11:56, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
- Huh? Missed the point. Show me, as I've asked, other, secondary sources which establish his notability and authority to discuss the issue at hand. Or his status as a "leader" in any specific field. Simple really. --Nickhh (talk) 21:53, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
- For what it's worth, I've been through newspaper databases in English, French, German, Spanish and Italian and found nothing about Shahaf except in reference to the al-Durrah case. That seems to be his only international claim to fame. -- ChrisO (talk) 09:02, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
- Hi Chris,
- Topic of current thread: I opened this subsection because of Nickhh's concerns and fact tagging of the mention that Shahaf is "a leading figure in the Israeli unmanned aircraft development industry" (see the provided diff above). This has very little to do with international claims to fame and was already cited in the Hebrew reference which I proposed to translate to alleviate his concerns. I'm fairly certain that the al-Durrah issue is irrelevant for the "Israeli unmanned aircrafts industry"-related fact tag and I made note of this to Nickhh.
- Extra verification: If I understand correctly, Nickhh notes that " simply don't appear to exist for Shahaf." and requested extra sources for corroboration of the currently cited Hebrew source -- which he is unable to read -- despite my suggestion for translation. In my reply I explained that, I'd be willing to further explore the claim that specialist sources exist/don't exist, but if Nickhh has indeed made a conclusive search in the specialist sources, then I am willing to take his word on it as it would be a waste of time to repeat the search and come up empty as well.
- Nickhh, have you made a concerted effort going over specialist/mainstream sources and came up with no mention of his pilotless aircraft design work? I feel obligated to repeat that this is mentioned in the Hebrew source, but I'd be interested in your response non-the-less.
- With respect, Jaakobou 11:37, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
- For what it's worth, I've been through newspaper databases in English, French, German, Spanish and Italian and found nothing about Shahaf except in reference to the al-Durrah case. That seems to be his only international claim to fame. -- ChrisO (talk) 09:02, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
- Huh? Missed the point. Show me, as I've asked, other, secondary sources which establish his notability and authority to discuss the issue at hand. Or his status as a "leader" in any specific field. Simple really. --Nickhh (talk) 21:53, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
I've sourced the tagged statement to Amnonm Lord's JCPA article, which describes Shahaf as a leading figure in IAI's pilotless aircraft project. Canadian Monkey (talk) 18:08, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
- Moved from lower section to proper chronological location Jaakobou 09:28, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
Regardless, ridicule by Gideon Levy (which is a recent issue due to his controversial journalistic standing) is not exactly official newspaper opinion. He has, in fact, professed in an interview that his opinions are at a minority at Haaretz.
- Source: סיכום המפגש עם העיתונאי גדעון לוי, מתאריך 26.2.2002
- Translation: - Is it correct that you are left alone at Haaretz with these opinions of yours?
- I'm not alone at Haaretz but I am at a minority, but it is ok. Original: - אם נכון שבהארץ נותרת בודד במערכת בדעותיך אלו?
- אני לא בודד בעיתון הארץ, אם כי אני במיעוט, אבל זה בסדר.
- Translation: - Is it correct that you are left alone at Haaretz with these opinions of yours?
- Source: סיכום המפגש עם העיתונאי גדעון לוי, מתאריך 26.2.2002
With respect, JaakobouChalk Talk 23:43, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
- End moved section.
- Well done. One journalist says something in one article sourced to a fanatical nationalist site, and it becomes authoratitive fact in a Misplaced Pages lead. Mainstream media criticism, specifically referenced as being such, is removed from the body of an article on the basis of BLP concerns. Welcome to Misplaced Pages and the world of balance. --Nickhh (talk) 21:47, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
- Which reliable source has described the Jerusalem Center as "fanatical"? If you don't understand thew difference between an OpEd and an investigative journalism report, as it pertains to contentious material about living persons, ask, and I will be happy to explain. In any case, please refrain from re-inserting material which an uninvolved admin has determined is a BLP violation into the article. If you persist, you are likely to be blocked from editing. Canadian Monkey (talk) 02:44, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
- 1) I never said one had described it as such - it's merely how I chose to describe, on a talk page, an organisation which says its aim is to "present 's case" and work for that nation's "growth and survival"; 2) I do understand the difference between op-eds and investigative pieces, and never said or implied that I did not; 3) Please stop inventing things I have supposedly said, and then patronising me - it gets more boring each time you do it. See you around. --Nickhh (talk) 16:34, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
- 1)In thre future, kindly keep your personal opinions out of Talk pages, which are for the improvement of articles, not for soapboxing. 2) You were asking why one item (sourced to an investigative news report) was presented in the article as fact, while another item (sourced to a partisan OpEd) was removed. This suggests you don't really understand the difference between the two. 3) I don't believe I've invented anything - I'm replying to your posted comments. I you are bored - please find something else to do. Canadian Monkey (talk) 18:13, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
- 1) I never said one had described it as such - it's merely how I chose to describe, on a talk page, an organisation which says its aim is to "present 's case" and work for that nation's "growth and survival"; 2) I do understand the difference between op-eds and investigative pieces, and never said or implied that I did not; 3) Please stop inventing things I have supposedly said, and then patronising me - it gets more boring each time you do it. See you around. --Nickhh (talk) 16:34, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
- Which reliable source has described the Jerusalem Center as "fanatical"? If you don't understand thew difference between an OpEd and an investigative journalism report, as it pertains to contentious material about living persons, ask, and I will be happy to explain. In any case, please refrain from re-inserting material which an uninvolved admin has determined is a BLP violation into the article. If you persist, you are likely to be blocked from editing. Canadian Monkey (talk) 02:44, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
Reminder
Folks, please remember that this article falls within the scope of Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Palestine-Israel articles. As such, uninvolved administrators are empowered to place discretionary sanctions on the article and/or editors here: Any uninvolved administrator may, on his or her own discretion, impose sanctions on any editor working in the area of conflict if, despite being warned, that editor repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behavior, or any normal editorial process. The sanctions imposed may include blocks of up to one year in length; bans from editing any page or set of pages within the area of conflict; bans on any editing related to the topic or its closely related topics; restrictions on reverts or other specified behaviors; or any other measures which the imposing administrator believes are reasonably necessary to ensure the smooth functioning of the project. So please ensure that discussions remain civil, and that article additions are carefully sourced. Thanks, --Elonka 19:42, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
- You are no longer an uninvolved admin, Elonka - not after the recent RfC - so please do not assume that you can intervene here. If you think there is a persistent issue, raise it at AN/I - no more unilateral interventions, please. -- ChrisO (talk) 09:09, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
- PS to my comment below -- Elonka has only issued a reminder so far. Let's see if we can get a conversation going before we react to strongly to the reminder. HG | Talk 13:01, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
- ChrisO, hi. I've been observing her RfC (and even tried my hand, albeit unsuccessfully, at trying to find a middle ground). I do have the impression that a substantial number of users (e.g., via Ramdrake, MastCell) have supported your concerns about Elonka's methodology in interventions and, perhaps to a lesser degree, her responsiveness. However, not that much has been said in the RfC to support your assertion here that she is an "uninvolved admin" here (or elsewhere). In any case, the RfC is somewhat difficult to interpret, since it doesn't seem to be emerging toward consensus and it hasn't been closed. As I think you know, I respect your work in Misplaced Pages. I'm open to trying to open a conversation w/you and Elonka about the (discretionary) groundrules for this page, if that would be helpful. What do you think? Thanks, HG | Talk 12:58, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
- I don't want to seem uncooperative, but I don't want her involved in this article, period - particularly as a so-called "uninvolved" admin. After an RfC (which I initiated), a recall request (which I didn't initiate or support, but for which she has blamed me) and an RfA request (ditto), I think it's unrealistic to expect her to be objective or neutral about any matters in which I'm involved. She doesn't need to be involved here. If she has concerns, as I've already said, she should find a genuinely uninvolved admin - ideally, someone who hasn't participated in the RfC, recall or RfA - to look at the matter. -- ChrisO (talk) 18:46, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, ChrisO, we realize you don't like Elonka. But you don't get to decide which editors particpate on which pages, and you don't get to decide who is uninvolved. The fact that Elonka has sanctioned you in the past does not get you an exemption here. Canadian Monkey (talk) 18:52, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
- There is no prerequisite for Elonka to participate here even if the page is some type of extension of the al-Durrah page; something Nickhh clarified earlier. However, I don't see nothing wrong with the reminder considering some clear incivility infractions as well as the recent edit-warring. I'm not sure on where I stand with the involved/uninvolved issue, but I'm thinking that Elonka should avoid administrative action on this page at this point in time (unless there is something very clear) and that other editors should stop violating the purpose of the encyclopedia. Is this proposition agreed on the people involved and uninvolved? Jaakobou 20:23, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
- There's no prerequisite for Elonka to participate here, but there is equally no problem with such participation, if she so chooses. The fact that one of the editors here does not like her and has decided to try and wikilawyer her off of articles he's involved with is not a factor worthy of serious consideration. I, for one, welcome her involvemt, as she seems to be the only one willing to stand up to said editor's POV-pushing and bullying. Canadian Monkey (talk) 20:52, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
- Ok, gentlemen, sit tight and let's hear Elonka's response, when she has a chance. Thanks. HG | Talk
- I have quite a bit to say about this... but I will honor HG's request. I think my self-control is admirable. 6SJ7 (talk) 21:54, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
- Ok, gentlemen, sit tight and let's hear Elonka's response, when she has a chance. Thanks. HG | Talk
- There's no prerequisite for Elonka to participate here, but there is equally no problem with such participation, if she so chooses. The fact that one of the editors here does not like her and has decided to try and wikilawyer her off of articles he's involved with is not a factor worthy of serious consideration. I, for one, welcome her involvemt, as she seems to be the only one willing to stand up to said editor's POV-pushing and bullying. Canadian Monkey (talk) 20:52, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
- There is no prerequisite for Elonka to participate here even if the page is some type of extension of the al-Durrah page; something Nickhh clarified earlier. However, I don't see nothing wrong with the reminder considering some clear incivility infractions as well as the recent edit-warring. I'm not sure on where I stand with the involved/uninvolved issue, but I'm thinking that Elonka should avoid administrative action on this page at this point in time (unless there is something very clear) and that other editors should stop violating the purpose of the encyclopedia. Is this proposition agreed on the people involved and uninvolved? Jaakobou 20:23, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
- No, Chris, you don't get to designate Elonka as an "involved administrator" simply because you start an RFC on her in reaction to her administrative actions regarding you. Wouldn't that be nice, any time an admin blocks someone, the blockee just opens an RFC on the blocker and Presto!, the admin is "involved" and can never take admin action against them again. Jayjg 00:09, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
- The ArbCom ruling defines involvement as content disputes on articles in the area of conflict, so I concur with Jayjg about Elonka still being uninvolved, although I don't agree with his other comments. PhilKnight (talk) 00:26, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
- I've removed the more exasperated parts of my post. Jayjg 00:36, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
- The ArbCom ruling defines involvement as content disputes on articles in the area of conflict, so I concur with Jayjg about Elonka still being uninvolved, although I don't agree with his other comments. PhilKnight (talk) 00:26, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, ChrisO, we realize you don't like Elonka. But you don't get to decide which editors particpate on which pages, and you don't get to decide who is uninvolved. The fact that Elonka has sanctioned you in the past does not get you an exemption here. Canadian Monkey (talk) 18:52, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
- I don't want to seem uncooperative, but I don't want her involved in this article, period - particularly as a so-called "uninvolved" admin. After an RfC (which I initiated), a recall request (which I didn't initiate or support, but for which she has blamed me) and an RfA request (ditto), I think it's unrealistic to expect her to be objective or neutral about any matters in which I'm involved. She doesn't need to be involved here. If she has concerns, as I've already said, she should find a genuinely uninvolved admin - ideally, someone who hasn't participated in the RfC, recall or RfA - to look at the matter. -- ChrisO (talk) 18:46, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
PhilKnight and Jayjg seem to have said anything necessary. I am still an uninvolved admin in this topic area. Just because an editor starts an RfC on an admin, does not make the admin "involved" and incapable of taking further actions with regard to that editor. See WP:UNINVOLVED. Also, I'd like to be clear that I'm not "claiming" this page in anyway. Indeed, any uninvolved admin is welcome to participate here. If I took an administrative action that another (uninvolved) admin found questionable, I would encourage them to bring their concerns to my talkpage. I would do the same for them. In my experience, the best way to handle these highly contentious topic areas, is to have admins working in tandem. However, it's often difficult to get more than one admin's attention on a single page. So in that respect, I welcome PhilKnight's participation here, and encourage him to stick around. :) --Elonka 02:09, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
Additional reliable sources
Greetings. In threads above, I've quoted from an Australian newspaper article (10-6-08) and Haaretz (11-7-00) regarding Shahaf with the Rabin and al Dura cases. Here are two other sources that could help provide info for the article. First, a brief follow-up in Haaretz the next day (11-8-00) which concludes in a very critical tone:
Mofaz fielded questions about the investigation into the death of al Dura after Ha'aretz reported yesterday that the IDF had staged re-enactments of the Netzarim shootout. These re-enactments, Ha'aretz reported, were initiated by two civilians, physicist Nahum Shahaf and engineer Yosef Duriel, who contacted Samia and argued that it is implausible that the boy was shot by IDF bullets. Samia appointed Shahaf to head the committee despite the fact that the physicist lacks experience in areas critical to the inquiry. Questioning Mofaz about the committee's report, MK Ophir Pines-Paz (One Israel) said, "One gets the impression that instead of genuinely confronting this incident, the IDF has chosen to stage a fictitious re-enactment and cover up the incident by means of an inquiry with foregone conclusions and the sole purpose of which is to clear the IDF of responsibility for al Dura's death. ("MOFAZ: AL DURA PROBE WAS INITIATED BY SOUTHERN COMMAND" no byline)
Second, there's an 11-11-00 article in The Times (London: " Palestinians shot boy, disputed report says" by Sam Kiley) that deals w/the Haaretz info, including: " A nominally independent investigation by the Israeli Army into the death of Muhammad Dura, the 12-year-old Gazan whose killing was captured by a film crew and broadcast around the world, is expected to conclude this week that he was not killed by Israelis but by Palestinians. The conclusion, which comes as a result of an investigation by Nahum Shahaf, a civilian physicist appointed by Brigadier Yomtov Samia, the Israeli military commander in Gaza, has already been ridiculed as "absurd" and "obscene" by military officials and Israel's most prestigious newspaper, Haaretz."
Also, Ha'aretz again ("Stupidity Marches On" 11-10-00, it sound like editorial but not marked that way in Nexis) states: "It is hard to describe in mild terms the stupidity of this bizarre investigation. ...The fact that an organized body like the IDF, with its vast resources, undertook such an amateurish investigation - almost a pirate endeavor - on such a sensitive issue, is shocking and worrying. " Granted, this criticizes the IDF more than Shahaf, who w/Duriel is said to have "had their own preconceived idea" going into their investigation.
Also, Jerusalem Post (March 17, 2008. "STILL NOT AT REST" by Bernard Edinger, Eetta Prince-Gibson): "The investigation by Shahaf and Doriel was widely ridiculed in the Israeli media, since neither are ballistics experts, they did not have access to film footage from any known news agency and, by that time, the actual site of the shooting had been razed so their investigation was based on a reconstruction of the scene."
Surely I do not mean to imply that each source needs to be quoted in our article. But there does seem to be some useful info here about the criticisms of Shahaf's work, which may improve the article. Thanks. HG | Talk 22:50, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks for the sources, HG. I would be careful here, though: virtually all the sources that are most critical of Shahaf are from very early on (or refer to that time). If you look at the 2008 article you reference, it has this line:
"...now, seven and a half years after Enderlin's veteran cameraman, Palestinian Talal Abu Rahmeh, filmed some of the most recognizable news footage ever recorded, the question of who killed Mohammed a-Dura - or whether he was actually killed - has not been convincingly resolved. In fact, as time passes, the controversy has become more heated and the questions surrounding the event and its aftermath have become even more troubling." (Emphasis added, Extract is here)
- Sure, the time context can be noted. But is there recent (countervailing) praise for his work? I'd be wary of inferring too much: doubts could continue to be raised about al-Dura for various reasons, even as Shahaf's work itself werre still be deemed low quality. Do you know what I mean? HG | Talk 01:00, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
- Oh, I think I know. As for countervailing praise, there's quite a bit (in the article already), and it's also quite a bit more recent. In fact, it seems like the majority of the criticism is old, and the praise generally much newer. IronDuke 02:40, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
- Hi. Ok, looking it over, what praise are you referring to? The Israel media watch award? Also, I just looked at the al-Durrah article and I don't quite see how Shahaf is vindicated. Instead, it seems to go back and forth about whether accusations can be made public, not about their validity. Is that right? Thanks. HG | Talk 03:12, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
- I don't recall saying anything about vindication... am I reading something wrong? There is the Israel media watch award, but I think more important than that is his being quoted by Fallows in a highly-influential piece, on 60 minutes, and in a book by a reasonably well-known author. AFAIK, none of these people refer to his theories in the negative manner some were cast very early on. They do not say "Shahaf is the greatest physicist who ever lived," but they do seem to rely on him as a worthy source promoting an intriguing hypothosis -- not as a crank in any way. IronDuke 03:22, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
- I just assumed that the praise would serve to vindicate him. But I see what you mean, he is treat in a legit manner, and from this our readers can infer a certain kind of praise or at least acceptance of him. That's fair enough. But the negative response to him (and Samia) probably should be added to the article. Thanks. HG | Talk 03:55, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
- Long as we put it in the context of "initial reactions." IronDuke 03:23, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
- I just assumed that the praise would serve to vindicate him. But I see what you mean, he is treat in a legit manner, and from this our readers can infer a certain kind of praise or at least acceptance of him. That's fair enough. But the negative response to him (and Samia) probably should be added to the article. Thanks. HG | Talk 03:55, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
- I don't recall saying anything about vindication... am I reading something wrong? There is the Israel media watch award, but I think more important than that is his being quoted by Fallows in a highly-influential piece, on 60 minutes, and in a book by a reasonably well-known author. AFAIK, none of these people refer to his theories in the negative manner some were cast very early on. They do not say "Shahaf is the greatest physicist who ever lived," but they do seem to rely on him as a worthy source promoting an intriguing hypothosis -- not as a crank in any way. IronDuke 03:22, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
- Hi. Ok, looking it over, what praise are you referring to? The Israel media watch award? Also, I just looked at the al-Durrah article and I don't quite see how Shahaf is vindicated. Instead, it seems to go back and forth about whether accusations can be made public, not about their validity. Is that right? Thanks. HG | Talk 03:12, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
- Oh, I think I know. As for countervailing praise, there's quite a bit (in the article already), and it's also quite a bit more recent. In fact, it seems like the majority of the criticism is old, and the praise generally much newer. IronDuke 02:40, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
- Sure, the time context can be noted. But is there recent (countervailing) praise for his work? I'd be wary of inferring too much: doubts could continue to be raised about al-Dura for various reasons, even as Shahaf's work itself werre still be deemed low quality. Do you know what I mean? HG | Talk 01:00, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
- Comment: I wasn't aware that Haaretz was Israel's most prestigious newspaper(?) On this article they are placed in two surveys at numbers 12 and 14, in both surveys, between TheMarker and Sports5(!).
- <snip moved to Levy>
- With respect, Jaakobou 23:43, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
- Um, Jaakobou, I don't believe I cited the Levy opinion piece, so maybe your comment should go in that thread, above? Also, Haretz is a reliable source and used extensively. You could try objecting to its WP use at the RS noticeboard, though I don't think it'd be worth your time. Thank you for your and your comment on the JPost. W/respect back at ya, HG | Talk 00:55, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
- Extra input from Haaretz: I made a quick look into one of the articles, written by Adi Schwartz (i.e. not Levy), and it makes note of the removed investigator but neglects to mention he was not a leading figure in the investigation and was removed because he couldn't perform the needed tasks. Regardless, "Meir Danino, who holds a doctorate in physics and is the chief scientist at Elisra Systems" is noted in the article to agree with Shahaf's proposition regarding the al-Durrah incident. <snip moved to Levy>
- With respect, Jaakobou 01:40, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
- Sorry, J, it's just that Nexis requires a subscription and I don't have other links (but I do mention if byline is given). There are various comments about Shahaf's work in that Schwartz article you cite, thanks, and I'd think that they may be germane to this article, as you suggest. Thanks. HG | Talk 01:58, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
<snip, moved to Levy above> As for IronDuke's comments above, the only thing that has really changed in the last few years is that the conspiracy theory has gained wider exposure due to its supporters' campaigning. That doesn't mean to say it has any more credibility than it had before. -- ChrisO (talk) 09:27, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
- The statement "the only thing that has really changed in the last few years is that the conspiracy theory has gained wider exposure due to its supporters' campaigning. That doesn't mean to say it has any more credibility than it had before." is simply not true. First of all, the major change in the last few years is that the original claims by France 2 ("The Israelis shot Al-Durrah deliberatley") have been almost universally rejected, and the mainstream opinion these days is that it is physically impossible for an Israeli bullet shot from the Israeli position to have hit the boy, and that he was likely shot by Palestinians (this is the conclusion of both Shapira and Fallows). As far as the "staged theory", it has certainly gained more exposure due to its supporters' campaigning, but also due to France 2's decision to try and shut up its critics through the use of defamation lawsuits - a tactic which has backfired. More importantly, though, the theory most certainly has more credibility today than it had before. For one thing, it has many more supporters. And whereas it was originally rejected by official Israeli government organs, we now have the head of Israel's Government Press Office, statinmg the event was "essentially staged". And we have the recent French court ruling, which says that Karsenty (another proponent of the "staged" theory) has put together a credible case, which can't be dismissed. Canadian Monkey (talk) 18:44, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
- Not to put too fine a point on it, the above is bollocks. Bear in mind that I've done the legwork on this using Lexis-Nexis to review literally thousands of articles in multiple languages. The original claims were very widely reported. I'm not aware of any newspaper or broadcaster publishing a retraction and saying "we got it wrong". Certainly no newspaper that I've found has done any sort of re+investigation in its news pages. A limited number of op-ed columnists in a limited number of mostly decidedly right-wing newspapers (Canada Post, Jerusalem Post, Wall Street Journal etc) have written strongly-worded opinion pieces arguing for the conspiracy theory - but as you should know, we are not allowed to use opinion pieces as statements of fact (see WP:RS#News organizations). The vast majority of publications that ran the original story have not even mentioned the conspiracy theory. Those that have have mostly reported neutrally on it in the context of the France 2 lawsuits. Very few have actually endorsed the conspiracy theory in their news (as opposed to opinion or editorial) pages.
- You're right that the France 2 lawsuits have backfired - that's the problem with suing for libel, you just end up giving free publicity to your opponents. However, controversy does not equate credibility. Intelligent design and global warming denial did not become more credible when more people started promoting them, any more than 9/11 conspiracy theories did - I daresay more people support the latter now than a few years ago, but that makes no difference to the credibility of an idea. The bottom line is that this is a political campaign by people with a particular political objective. There seems to be no "mainstream view" as such. All we can say is that out of all of the media sources that have ever commented on the case, the vast majority reported the original version, a smaller number reported the conspiracy theory and the lawsuits, and a very small number have endorsed the conspiracy theory, but even then almost entirely in op-eds, not in news reporting.
- As for the French court judgment, you're just repeating the spin put on it by Karsenty's chums: as the French media made clear at the time, the court was merely required to rule on whether Karsenty's claims met the requirements of the Law on the Freedom of the Press of 29 July 1881, not whether his claims had any truth. The Israeli press officer's comments were also disowned by the Israeli government, which said that he had made them in a personal, not professional capacity. The official Israeli government view appears to be "no comment". -- ChrisO (talk) 19:15, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
- We've been over this, at length, at the Al-Dura article. You are repeating your assertions which have been refuted many times over. I don't intend to repeat that exchange over here - I will just mentions a few main points: The French court, while not required to rule on the veracity of Kersanty's claims, did state clearly and unequivocaly that he put together a coherent body of evidence which can't be dismissed - which is exactly calling it credible. The conclusion that Al-Dura was likely shot by Palestinians was reported by Shapira's well-researched ARD documentary - not in an Oped. Fallows' simialr conclusion was also not an OpEd. And multiple recent news sources, not OpEds, that called the story a hoax or a likely hoax, were presented in the Al-Dura article. None of this is directly relevant to this article, which is a BLP - and I am going to warn you that repeated violations of WP:BLP wll lead to you being blocked. If you can't edit neutrally on this topic, please don't edit here. Canadian Monkey (talk) 20:07, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
- Considering your own dismal record in this matter, I would have thought a BLP warning would be far more appropriate for you. But in any case, you're committing original research again, just as you did in the al-Durrah article. The French court did not at any point comment on the credibility of Karsenty's claims. As International Libel and Privacy Handbook: A Global Reference for Journalists states, a defendant can be acquitted "if the court is satisfied that the defendant has carried out at least a basic verification of the source of the information on which the defamatory statement is based." That is precisely what the court did in this case + hence the relevance of the "coherent body of evidence". The French press, which one would imagine knows the terms of the law under which it operates, has made it clear what the judgment meant in practice. Karsenty and his chums have a more self+serving view, naturally.
- The status of Shapira's documentary and Fallows' piece is a bit fuzzy, admittedly; they both fall in the cracks between original reporting (which they do) and presentation of the author's personal impressions (which they also do). Fallows' piece is probably more categorizable as an opinion piece, given that its publisher, The Atlantic Monthly, is primarily an outlet for commentary. -- ChrisO (talk) 20:18, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
- My 'dismal record'? What on Earth are you on about? Have you decided to add violations of WP:NPA to your already lenghtly list of wikipedia policy violations? I strongly urge you to strike that out. You may spin all you want , but the French verdict speaks for itself - it says Karsenty's evidence can't be dismissed. If you don't see how that speaks to its credibilty, too bad. There is nothing "fuzzy" about a television documentary by ARD, nor about a piece of investigative journalism in the Atlantic Monthly -they are both news reports in reliable sources, which completely debunk the shoddy piece of "journalism" that France 2 produced and dissimenated, and which was severly criticized by the French court verdict, as well. As I said - this is not the place to rehash the debate from the Al-Dura article. This article is about a living person, and editors who can't edit in accordance with WP:BLP should not be editing here. Canadian Monkey (talk) 20:49, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
- (Refactored here w/ok from ChrisO and Jaakobou. Thanks. HG | Talk 20:54, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
- @Canadian Monkey - BLP means we don't make a big song and dance about one story a journalist did 8 years ago and try to make out he's a liar - particularly not in league with those (such as CAMERA) who have told us they're trying to get him sacked over it. Enderlin's public profile is 100s to 1 that he's reliable and honest.
- Nor does BLP mean we treat with kid gloves an unqualified publicist who has raised himself from total obscurity with what RSs have described as an obsession. This man's public profile is 1 to 100s that he's <BLP violation removed> (and probably FRINGE to the nth degree). He would remain that way even if he were (impossibly) proved right in this case. The denial that has taken over his life is unsavoury - or worse. PR 14:39, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
- This is not "one story a journalist did 8 years ago" - it was a major media event, which caused very notable reactions and resulted in a major ocntroversy, which has lasted more than 8 years. Enderlin is not even mentioned in this article, so I don't know what you're on about. BLP applies to every article and evry page on WP - including talk pages. accordingly, I have struck out your BLP violation, and hope you will not repeat it. BLP requires that contentious information be impeccably sourced - and that is what I am striving for in this article. Canadian Monkey (talk) 17:59, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
- My 'dismal record'? What on Earth are you on about? Have you decided to add violations of WP:NPA to your already lenghtly list of wikipedia policy violations? I strongly urge you to strike that out. You may spin all you want , but the French verdict speaks for itself - it says Karsenty's evidence can't be dismissed. If you don't see how that speaks to its credibilty, too bad. There is nothing "fuzzy" about a television documentary by ARD, nor about a piece of investigative journalism in the Atlantic Monthly -they are both news reports in reliable sources, which completely debunk the shoddy piece of "journalism" that France 2 produced and dissimenated, and which was severly criticized by the French court verdict, as well. As I said - this is not the place to rehash the debate from the Al-Dura article. This article is about a living person, and editors who can't edit in accordance with WP:BLP should not be editing here. Canadian Monkey (talk) 20:49, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
Israel Media Watch award
ResolvedHi. I'm having trouble confirms the praise/info on this award. The link to the website didn't disclose the info nor did my google search. If it's a notable award, why isn't it covered better? How good is the IMW and does it need some qualifier? Thanks. HG | Talk 03:14, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
- Quite a number of links can be found through here and here.
- Cheers, Jaakobou 04:18, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
- Those work really well for me. Why don't you pick a couple of the them as footnotes? Perhaps people will complain about the language, but it's better than a non-working English link. Thanks very much, Jaakobou. HG | Talk 04:55, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
- Sheesh. No-one doubts he won said award. But where is the notability (yes, I am still complaining)? Secondary sources please, in English, in significant sources, for the benefit of English Misplaced Pages? This is pretty basic stuff according to WP rules. --Nickhh (talk) 22:06, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
- Sorry, but I can't recall the policy about English vs foreign language sources. Can you pls give me a link? Thanks. HG | Talk 22:15, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
- Fair enough, English language sources are not strictly required. But they would help, no, for most users? And translations should be available? And that doesn't avoid the requirement on sources to be notable does it? --Nickhh (talk) 22:23, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
- Sorry for asking, but is there really an issue with the notability of Haaretz and Omedia? Jaakobou 22:25, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks Nick. Sure, the sources have to be notable but, as Jaakobou points out, they are sufficient. Unfortunately, so far we don't have an English version or translation. However, reading the policy, I personally don't think we need to translate the text -- because there's really no need to challenge the info. Editors may doubt that it's worth including, but the fact itself is hardly worth disputing. (If need be, somebody like Jaakobou can translate a key sentence and somebody like me can check it.) Thanks, HG | Talk 22:30, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
- Haaretz is fine in principle of course (although on this specific point I have no idea what the cited article says), Omedia I've never heard of. Not that this necessarily means anything of course, but I do know quite a lot about world media sources generally. WP:RSN is a better place to ask that question surely? Still not sure we have genuine notability as to the fundamental point --Nickhh (talk) 22:32, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
- I'm not following you. What is "the fundamental point" that makes you believe this text should not be cited? Jaakobou 09:23, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
- I have a similar question as Jaakobou. Nickhh, it is extremely common to include awards in bios. So the notability or relevance of awards, within bios, is well established. WP "notability" applies mainly to articles; for a specific fact (e.g., the award), a single reliable source is usually sufficient. Other uninvolved parties can chime in here, but the Haaretz cite should be adequate to place this award in the article. So, is there some other policy or other aspect involved here? Thanks. HG | Talk 09:30, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
- I'm not following you. What is "the fundamental point" that makes you believe this text should not be cited? Jaakobou 09:23, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
- Haaretz is fine in principle of course (although on this specific point I have no idea what the cited article says), Omedia I've never heard of. Not that this necessarily means anything of course, but I do know quite a lot about world media sources generally. WP:RSN is a better place to ask that question surely? Still not sure we have genuine notability as to the fundamental point --Nickhh (talk) 22:32, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks Nick. Sure, the sources have to be notable but, as Jaakobou points out, they are sufficient. Unfortunately, so far we don't have an English version or translation. However, reading the policy, I personally don't think we need to translate the text -- because there's really no need to challenge the info. Editors may doubt that it's worth including, but the fact itself is hardly worth disputing. (If need be, somebody like Jaakobou can translate a key sentence and somebody like me can check it.) Thanks, HG | Talk 22:30, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
- Sorry for asking, but is there really an issue with the notability of Haaretz and Omedia? Jaakobou 22:25, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
- Fair enough, English language sources are not strictly required. But they would help, no, for most users? And translations should be available? And that doesn't avoid the requirement on sources to be notable does it? --Nickhh (talk) 22:23, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
- Sorry, but I can't recall the policy about English vs foreign language sources. Can you pls give me a link? Thanks. HG | Talk 22:15, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
- Sheesh. No-one doubts he won said award. But where is the notability (yes, I am still complaining)? Secondary sources please, in English, in significant sources, for the benefit of English Misplaced Pages? This is pretty basic stuff according to WP rules. --Nickhh (talk) 22:06, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
I've never doubted that he got this award, and that it is possibly worth a mention. But as you acknowledge we have to accept that some awards (eg a Nobel Prize) carry more value and are more notable than others. In any event I've only raised questions about this issue because it seems some editors are keen to stuff this article with praise even from fairly marginal political groups, but exclude any specific criticism that has been voiced in the mainstream media. It was the contrast as much as anything that I was trying to flag up. Anyway, I'm gone (nearly) --Nickhh (talk) 16:26, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
- In the future, if you don't mind my saying, please do not question one edit in order to make a point about the overall balance. Just question the balance directly. Take care. HG | Talk 16:43, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
- HG, you started this thread and asked for sources to confirm/establish notability. I never questioned the edit per se or the inclusion of the award in the article, here or elsewhere. When I've discussed the broader issue about balance elsewhere on the talk page - as I have - I have in fact noted that the award itself was probably "worth mentioning". Cheers, --Nickhh (talk) 17:02, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
- Perhaps a misunderstood your previous comment, or your 1st (But where is the notability (yes, I am still complaining)?) and I apologize for prolonging this. No hard feelings, be well, HG | Talk 17:14, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
- HG, you started this thread and asked for sources to confirm/establish notability. I never questioned the edit per se or the inclusion of the award in the article, here or elsewhere. When I've discussed the broader issue about balance elsewhere on the talk page - as I have - I have in fact noted that the award itself was probably "worth mentioning". Cheers, --Nickhh (talk) 17:02, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
Ok, this issue seems to be resolved and the award has at least one reliable sources. If English sources are found, please add. The thread can be archived. Thanks. HG | Talk 16:43, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
- Dear HG - there is a serious problem at a number of articles with premature archiving of material that is a) quite recent and b) of long-term significance to editing of this article (and many others).
- For instance, if the project has abandoned VERIFIABILITY (as would appear from this discussion), then everyone here needs to know about it (and it would be nice to see a full explanation at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration).
- If you're puzzled about my statement, I should tell you there is a real danger that the organisation referenced here is vanishingly FRINGE and it's commendation has no place in this article. "Media Watch" groups of this kind are notorious for one-dimensional output indistinguishable from propaganda, and even attempts to subvert the project with faux admins. Even the (normally right-wing) JPost has called Shahaf a "conspiracy theorist", and his helpers Landers and Karsenty "conspiracy freaks", both in the body and headline of an op-ed. It seems hardly possible that a reputable media organisation has a radically different opinion of Shahaf. There is a real danger of serious distortion if we carry on down this path.
- One of my former mentors was forced to break the, until-then, fully public nature of her interaction with me in an e-mail warning that a translation I'd been told to get for myself (suggestion - use an uninvolved, randomly chosen, Hebrew speaking editor here), was liable to cause severe offense if I did so. If I'm obligated to have one or more Hebrew-speaking mentors as well in order to continue being an editor, a statement to that effect would be appreciated. PR 10:16, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
- PR, I have warned you before about this, and struck out your previous BLP violation. Since you have now repeated the violation, here and on other pages, falsely citing the Jerusalem Post in your support, you leave me no choice but to report your behaviour. May I ask who is your current mentor, per the restictions placed on your editing by the community?
- For future reference, the JP article you cite refers to Shahaf in the folowing place, and only there, in these words: "Referring to Nahum Shahaf, one of Yom Tov Samia's investigators and the fountainhead of al-Dura conspiracy mania, Fallows continues: "Shahaf's evidence for this conclusion, based on his videos, is essentially an accumulation of oddities and unanswered questions about the chaotic events of the day." Canadian Monkey (talk) 16:02, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
- Actually no, that is the writer quoting the Fallows article. In his own words, the writer describes Shahaf as "the fountainhead of al-Dura conspiracy mania". Just for future reference. --Nickhh (talk) 16:58, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
- yes, that's right up there in the section I've quoted, do read a little more carefully next time. Canadian Monkey (talk) 17:03, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
- Lots of people know about this accusation you're making against me, and the fact that you didn't tell me you were making such a complaint.
- And that you carelessly told people that Nickhh had been sanctioned for the same offense (begging the question of why you didn't tell me this when I first called Shahaf a conspiracy theorist).
- You insisted I take advice before responding to you, which explains the slight tardiness of my full response. But I'd be happy to let sleeping dogs lie and, without prejudice, replace "conspiracy theorist" with "the fountainhead of al-Dura conspiracy mania". Would that make you feel better? PR 17:43, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
- What on earth are you on about? I responded to a comment you made here, a few hours after you made it. Do you expect a personal message on your Talk page to let you know I've repsonded to your post? When your participate in dioscussion on a Talk page, your are expected to take an active interest in what people say in response. Of course "Lots of people know about this accusation you're making against me" - it was made publicly, on an open Talk page (unlike your desire to conduct things not in the open, through E-mail or secret off-wiki mailing lists. ANd contrary to what youclaim here, I did warn you about this BLP vioaltion the firs time - its right here on this talk page. I ask you again, who is your current mentor, required by the editing restrictions placed on you? Canadian Monkey (talk) 17:56, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
- yes, that's right up there in the section I've quoted, do read a little more carefully next time. Canadian Monkey (talk) 17:03, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
- Actually no, that is the writer quoting the Fallows article. In his own words, the writer describes Shahaf as "the fountainhead of al-Dura conspiracy mania". Just for future reference. --Nickhh (talk) 16:58, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
- As to the Jpost quote - CM you're the one who seems to have cut & pasted the section without reading it, since you've been going around complaining that people have been saying the piece refers to Shahaf as a "conspiracy theorist", alleging that this is some sort of misquote, when in fact of course it's a rather polite interpretation of what the writer is actually saying. I just wanted to be sure you and everyone else is clear about what Karsenty was saying himself, and the far more measured words that he was quoting from Fallows. --Nickhh (talk) 09:35, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
BLP
Folks, please remember that per Misplaced Pages's policy about the biographies of living people, controversial claims about living people should stay off of talkpages, as well as articles. Now, having said that, there's some leeway here, because a certain amount of legitimate fair discussion is allowed, where it may be necessary to refer to the actual claims on the talkpage of an article, even if they come from sources of dubious, unconfirmed, or controversial reliability. This is because sometimes it's near-impossible to talk about "should we include this in the article" unless "this" can be clearly referred to. So, I have added the {{NOINDEX}} template to this page for now, to keep it off the search engines. Please do continue with discussions, and then after they're completed, we may go ahead and courtesy-blank the section. In the meantime, I ask everyone to please be very very mindful of BLP concerns, and keep any potentially controversial terms to a minimum. Thanks, --Elonka 22:16, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
- I'm a bit puzzled here - what's controversial about calling Shahaf a "conspiracy theorist"? An Op-ed in an Israeli newspaper calls him "the fountainhead of al-Dura conspiracy mania" - one might easily suppose that the RS source was actually being more damning than my abreviation of their charge. PR 20:16, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
- The term "conspiracy theorist" is a negative term. In order to use it in a biography of a living person, per Misplaced Pages's policy on these biographies, we would want multiple reliable sources which used such language. A simple opinion piece in one Israeli newspaper is not sufficient. --Elonka 02:15, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
- The text which was battled over most recently did not state outright that he was a conspiracy theorist. It made the accurate assessment that he had been described as such in the media. While I agree that it is usually used in a perjorative sense, at the same time strictly it simply means that the individual believes that some sort of truth is being hidden by concerted action behind the scenes, which is precisely what Shahaf is claiming. Even when used as a negative term, it is not suggesting that the person pushing the theory is a fraud or a liar (which would raise real BLP concerns) but simply that they are mistaken or wrong, and have come to a conclusion based on speculation. In any event, here are several sources, most of which have been raised before. There aren't a huge amount, but that's to be honest because most of the mainstream media has pretty much ignored the theory and Shahaf altogether -
- 1) Ed O'Loughlin in Australia's The Age, citing Charles Enderlin as referring to the "conspiracy theory" surrounding the al-Durrah shooting, and also linking Shahaf specifically to allegations that Shimon Peres was behind a "conspiracy" to murder Yitzhak Rabin, here
- 2) Larry Derfner writing in the Jerusalem Post, describing Shahaf as above as "the fountainhead of al-Dura conspiracy mania", in an article headlined by the paper "al-Dura and the conspiracy freaks", here
- 3) Larry Derfner again, using the phrase "conspiracy theory" numerous times, and specifically saying Shahaf "pioneered the field of al-Dura conspiracy theory after cutting his teeth on the Rabin assassination", here
- 4) Gideon Levy in Haaretz, talking about Shahaf's "eccentric obsession" with the case, here
- 5) David Langsam discussing the "conspiracy theories" and stating that Shahaf's report is used as supposed proof of them in the Rationalist, here. Possibly a slightly marginal source
- 6) James Fallows in The Atlantic Monthly avoids using the phrase itself, but does rather pointedly bring up the classic definition when he says "The reasons to doubt that the al-Duras, the cameramen, and hundreds of onlookers were part of a coordinated fraud are obvious. Shahaf's evidence for this conclusion, based on his videos, is essentially an accumulation of oddities and unanswered questions", here
- Even sources broadly supportive of Shahaf and others acknowledge the accusations that they are "conspiracy theorists", if only to deny them, eg Richard Landes, here. Again, I can't see the problem with saying that he has been "described as a conspiracy theorist" or "is noted for supporting what has been described as a conspiracy theory". --Nickhh (talk) 12:52, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
- The latter formulation ("is noted for supporting what has been described as a conspiracy theory") is supported by numerous sources, and I am ok with it. It is different from applying a pejorative label to the person, which is a BLP violation not supported by the sources. Canadian Monkey (talk) 16:24, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
- Wait: what? Am I missing something? PR is being accused of a BLP violation, apparently because PR said something on this talk page which is already said in one of our articles? The Muhammad al-Durrah article says of Shahaf "...while other reporters dismissed them as ...". There's a reference, but with no online version. By the way, in the link given by Nickhh ("eg Richard Landes here"), I don't find the word "theorist" anywhere in the article. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 16:44, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
- You should know better than this. If there's another BLP violation on another page, that's no excuse for repeating it here, especially after this very statement has been removed from this article by an uninvolved admin who called it a BLP violation. As you have volunteered to perform potentially contentious edits on the Muhammad al-Durrah Talk page, please remove that BLP violation (which you have not been able to verify) from that article. Canadian Monkey (talk) 16:55, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
- I agree that a BLP violation on one page doesn't excuse a BLP violation on another page. Thanks for pointing out the deletion per BLP from this article, which I hadn't been aware of. I don't know whether the bit in the other article is a BLP violation or not. Sources don't have to be available online; although I haven't verified it, I don't know that it isn't verifiable. I suggest that you propose a specific edit on the talk page of the article in question and see if a rough consensus can be achieved. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 21:51, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
- Clearly, sources don't have to be available online in order to be comapliant with WP:V. I wasn't suggetsing otherwise. My suggestion for a specific edit is along the lines of what has been proposed here by Nickhh: "Other reporters have dismissed the investigation's conclusions as a 'conspiracy theory'. " Canadian Monkey (talk) 22:11, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
- I agree that it's better to use "theory" than "theorist", partly because I'm under the impression that that's what many of the sources do, and partly because it's less personal and refrains from implying that the person does stuff like this about other topics too. However, if it were to be put in quotation marks like that, then someone would have to check the source to see if it uses those exact words (or use a different source instead; I'm not sure how that would work with the editing conditions, but if we get consensus then we can ask). ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 23:41, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
- Clearly, sources don't have to be available online in order to be comapliant with WP:V. I wasn't suggetsing otherwise. My suggestion for a specific edit is along the lines of what has been proposed here by Nickhh: "Other reporters have dismissed the investigation's conclusions as a 'conspiracy theory'. " Canadian Monkey (talk) 22:11, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
- I agree that a BLP violation on one page doesn't excuse a BLP violation on another page. Thanks for pointing out the deletion per BLP from this article, which I hadn't been aware of. I don't know whether the bit in the other article is a BLP violation or not. Sources don't have to be available online; although I haven't verified it, I don't know that it isn't verifiable. I suggest that you propose a specific edit on the talk page of the article in question and see if a rough consensus can be achieved. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 21:51, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
- You should know better than this. If there's another BLP violation on another page, that's no excuse for repeating it here, especially after this very statement has been removed from this article by an uninvolved admin who called it a BLP violation. As you have volunteered to perform potentially contentious edits on the Muhammad al-Durrah Talk page, please remove that BLP violation (which you have not been able to verify) from that article. Canadian Monkey (talk) 16:55, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
- Wait: what? Am I missing something? PR is being accused of a BLP violation, apparently because PR said something on this talk page which is already said in one of our articles? The Muhammad al-Durrah article says of Shahaf "...while other reporters dismissed them as ...". There's a reference, but with no online version. By the way, in the link given by Nickhh ("eg Richard Landes here"), I don't find the word "theorist" anywhere in the article. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 16:44, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
- The latter formulation ("is noted for supporting what has been described as a conspiracy theory") is supported by numerous sources, and I am ok with it. It is different from applying a pejorative label to the person, which is a BLP violation not supported by the sources. Canadian Monkey (talk) 16:24, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
Conspiracy Theorist
I see that some of the editors opposing characterizing Shahaf as such have since been censured, limited or blocked. As there has recently been increased activity on the Muhammad al-Durrah article, and Shahaf's investigation is a fulcrum for much of the editing, it is time to reassess this article. Sources should be cited inline to comply with WP:BLP of course. For starters, I suggest adding information on Shahaf's conspiracy theory on the death of Yitzak Rabin. Respectfully, RomaC (talk) 14:29, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
- Not sure that sources that only criticize him and neglect to actually review what he is saying count as 'adding info'. Anyways, if the critique is notable (usually several people discussing the same issue) - we can merge their critique into a small 1-4 lines (size pending on content's encyclopedic value for a bio).
- p.s. I'm fairly unsure about the "fulcrum for much of the editing" statement. Shahaf was oneballistics expert while another French individual validated the same conclusions. His other suggestions, best I'm aware, were also picked up by more than one external person. If the only reason to add input on conspiracy theories Shahaf suggested could exist and should be questioned is to harm his credence for the al-durrah article (and I'm not saying this is the intention), then that could lead to a bad style for constructing the material and a BLP vio indeed. We should keep in mind that this is still a bio and issues need to be listed based on real notability and not a POV boost to a side issue of a notable case (al-durrah).
- Warm regards, Jaakobou 23:49, 27 February 2010 (UTC)
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