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• Jose Antonio Vargas (August 17, 2009). "The 50 most-viewed Misplaced Pages articles in 2009 and 2008". The Daily Telegraph.
• Alison Stewart, Rachel Martin (2008-04-03). "'Round the Clock: Obama, Clinton Wiki-Warfare". The Bryant Park Project, NPR.
• Brooke Gladstone, Bob Garfield (2008-04-04). "Editors in Chief". On The Media, NPR.
• Eve Fairbanks (2008-04-09). "Wiki Woman". The New Republic.
• Jesse Brown (2008-04-10). "Hillary's Wiki Defender". Search Engine, CBC Radio One.
• Tom Foreman (2008-04-11). "Misplaced Pages Wars". This Week..., CNN.
• John J. Miller (2008-04-21). "Liberal Web". National Review.
• Kelly Heyboer (2008-05-28). "Clinton's entry in Misplaced Pages has a watchdog". The Star-Ledger.
• Paul Murnane (2008-05-28). "NJ Man Appoints Himself Misplaced Pages Watchdog". WCBS Newsradio 880.
• Noam Cohen (2008-11-09). "Updating a Reference Site on the Fly". The New York Times.
• Adrian Bridgwater (January 22, 2009). "Obama Misplaced Pages page under possible security attack". ZDNet.
• Aaron Klein (March 8, 2009). "Misplaced Pages scrubs Obama eligibility". WorldNetDaily.
• Joshua Rhett Miller (March 9, 2009). "Obama's Misplaced Pages Page Distances President from Wright and Ayers". Fox News Channel.
• Mark Coleman (March 10, 2009). "Barack Obama 'receives preferential treatment on Misplaced Pages', report claims". The Daily Telegraph.
• Noam Cohen (July 19, 2009). "Misplaced Pages May Be a Font of Facts, but It's a Desert for Photos". The New York Times.

Special discussion pages

• Article probation, Incidents
• Historical diffs, Weight, Race

I notice that conservative political profiles have mentioned on them scandals and public criticisms such as Palin's (McCain's this time last year was noticeably critical, unlike Obama's) yet not liberals. I imagine this to be because of the disproportionate impact liberals have on the internet, a fact, by the way, which is statistically provable. According to the 2009 political typology report by the Pew Research Center, there are 9 different profiles of voters, 3 Republican, 3 Democrat, and 3 Moderate. The 17% that are overwhelmingly socially liberal (19% of registered voters), and the only wealthy one of the 3 Democrat groups, are also the group of all 9 to go online most frequently for their news (37%, with no other group but the Moderate Upbeats, at 34%, close - no other group but the Republican Enterprisers is at even 26%).

http://people-press.org/report/?pageid=945

At any rate, I am proposing the following section, although, I notice that Misplaced Pages is now changing to avoid sections labeled 'Political Controversies' even though I noticed another politician with just such a section just today, so perhaps it would be best to not label it that, but instead make it merely historical referenced, as part of his senate career:

Further commentary

Now, all of those are mainstream criticisms of Barack Obama. I would like to see the reasoning behind those who would deny the inclusion of them. I would also ask, if there is a consensus to be achieved on whether to put this in, how long will it take, and how will it be decided? After all, if hypothetically, liberals were more obtuse in refusing to allow criticisms of Obama yet conservatives were able to agree to allow valid criticisms of conservative candidates, would that mean that just because one side is hypocritically unjust in disallowing a consensus that variable and discriminatory means should be permitted to coexist? --Jzyehoshua (talk) 23:12, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

Are you kidding? This isn't a political advertisement website that has a place for one side or the other to post their political adds against political figures. If you want to go around Misplaced Pages and accuse WP:BLP of killing children, you're not going to last very long. My suggestion for you is to either drastically reduce the size of your last edit here(there is a 500 word limit) and strike the portions that are purposely inflammatory, or just revert the whole thing. DD2K (talk) 23:51, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

Hey, hey, hey, keep the ad hominems to yourself. If you want to accuse me of using political ads then why don't you say what part of the heavily sourced facts you disagree with? Those are major sources I'm using to back up every little statement, even the inflections and tones of voice, when referring to Obama. The least you can do is state what you disagree with.

I am not sure if those citations I gave are easily clicked on, I was trying to figure out how, so they may not work here in the discussion, but I will post them out.

1. Keyes assails Obama's abortion views, August 9, 2004, , Associated Press.

2. State of Illinois General Assembly 92nd General Assembly Regular Session Senate Transcript, Illinois General Assembly, March 30, 2001, , pages=85-87 2009.

3. State of Illinois General Assembly 90th General Assembly Regular Session Senate Transcript, Illinois General Assembly, March 18, 1997, , pages=61-63.

4. State of Illinois General Assembly 90th General Assembly Regular Session Senate Transcript, Illinois General Assembly, April 4, 2002, ], pages 30-35.

5. Obama and 'Infanticide', FactCheck.org, August 25, 2008, .

6. Barack Obama knows his way around a ballot, Chicago Tribune, April 3, 2007, .

7. Barack Obama and Me, Houston News, February 26, 2008, .

8. Obama: How He Learned to Win, Time Magazine, May 8, 2008, .

Look, I could play you and take the other side and say you shouldn't have the negative stuff about the Bridge to Nowhere or her governorship stuff on Sarah Palin's website because this isn't a place for 'political ads'. Just because it's politically controversial does not mean it is untrue, un-historical, factually inaccurate, or defamatory. It's only defamatory if not very clearly true and unsourced. Which is why I challenge you to back up your accusations against me and show even one word I said that is a matter of opinion rather than simply covering the subjects.

It's because I don't think Misplaced Pages should treat itself like a political campaign website that I am opposing you on this. You're treating Obama's page here like a glorified billboard praising his beautiful attributes while avoiding anything critical of him, and denying the very different manner of approach used elsewhere for politicians on Misplaced Pages. I am saying that you should do one or the other. Either be willing to show the factual criticisms of him, or remove the criticisms for all other politicians.

And again, if you think I am being opinionated or not backing up any statements in any way - then show how. Say it. Where's the beef? I wrote a well-sourced article and if you're going to throw around attacks like that against it and against me, then at least show the courtesy of saying why you disagree with them. Anyone can accuse an article or article writer. It's a whole other thing to actually provide reasoned arguments and logic-based critiques.

As soon as I wrote this, I had someone come on my page and tell me I had to be kidding. Another one who wasn't even a moderator came and told me the post was reverted and then laughed when I asked them why it was reverted, told me I needed to get my eyes checked. There is a liberal community on the web that composes less than 20% of the American populace but will exert their influence over the rest of society whenever they can to further their agendas by silencing free speech through whatever means necessary.

We saw that in the large scale with the leaking of the climate change emails, which showed the liberal members of the scientific community were willing to go so far as bias in peer review and discrimination to remove or disallow all alternate points of view - and any evidence that did not fit their beliefs.

Bottom line - I quoted from Obama's own words off the senate floor and major news articles from the Chicago Tribune, Time Magazine, and the Associated Press. FactCheck.org was referenced as well. Whether you like the POV or not is irrelevant here. If it is a major issue than it should be covered, and the fact that you are trying to silence it without being able to provide any reasonable basis shows something here. I noticed a recent user tried to remove this part of the discussion and all my comments. The attempts by the Misplaced Pages community to prevent this from even being discussed are shameful and disgusting.

--Jzyehoshua (talk) 05:37, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Ideological disagreement is not encyclopedic material. None of this has the slightest chance of appearing in a biographical article on the Misplaced Pages. Tarc (talk) 05:53, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

I agree. But what part of my post resorted to 'ideological disagreement'? I merely reported the facts and points of view of major news outlets in covering this, and stuck entirely to the facts. If I did otherwise, then show it. And if I did so, and this is still inappropriate, then state WHY.

--Jzyehoshua (talk) 05:55, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Furthermore, there are any number of articles on Misplaced Pages that provide critical facts and reporting references on the pages of politicians or organizations that are less well-sourced than mine. All I see is a hypocritical double standard.

--Jzyehoshua (talk) 06:01, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Then you're doing yourself a disservice in not becoming familiar with the policies and guidelines that have been pointed out to you. Here's another: WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. Nobody here is saying keep criticism in other articles, and you claiming that is false. Grsz

So then, you are saying Misplaced Pages would support my removing anything negative about a person, regardless of its factual basis? So the fact that George Bush started a false war over WOMD, I could remove all reference to that on his page? Because it is the same scenario here. There is factual, well-sourced basis for historical criticism of Barack Obama that can be stated objectively in a reasonable manner. Just because the Republicans use mudslinging all the time against him, doesn't mean there are no criticisms of Obama. It's just that so much of their junk is flying around that their stuff gets discredited and when they actually find something that is valid, it's like the boy that cries wolf, and nobody listens. Anyway, I just don't like it that Obama's being treated specially here and anything negative of him can't be written. I hardly think Misplaced Pages intends to allow a policy where anything written negative about anyone can be deleted for no other reason than making everything positive about everyone. And no, I'm not saying I want to remove all negative stuff about everyone, just pointing out that it seems ridiculous such a standard is being applied here. --Jzyehoshua (talk) 12:37, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

In answer to "what part", I would respond "all of it". The Obama article isn't a soapbox for your anti-abortionist propaganda, nor is it for delving into minutiae about Chicago politics. This is an encyclopedia, not a blog. Tarc (talk) 06:07, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Way to be specific. If it's "all of it" then surely you can provide even ONE example, right? Because I've been challenging anyone to provide one the last several hours and still have yet to see anything tangible.

As for 'minutiae' about Chicago politics, we're talking minutiae being reported on by the Associated Press, Chicago Tribune, Time Magazine, Washington Post, New York Times, and FactCheck.org. Among others. That's some pretty substantial minutiae.

You have needed far less excuse to report negative stories about politicians or organizations elsewhere on Misplaced Pages. For example, the article on Microsoft needs very few or no sources to accuse the global corporate giant of different things. The article on Alan Keyes, the 2004 Senate opponent of Obama, mentions the media attacks on him at the time of carpet-bagging and 'selfish hedonism'. I don't see you standing up to say that is too negative of him. You want to be able to put the negative stuff about him but balk at anything critical of his opponent being put on Misplaced Pages.

As I have said, double standard. If you are going to make claims, back them up from now on. I am getting tired of the mudslinging done here with no accountability for attacks on others and their posts.

--Jzyehoshua (talk) 06:17, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

You only have 2 sections, one is "Support for 'Infanticide'", the other "Chicago politics". Let's not play coy about what we're talking here; your material, while wordy, is not terribly complicated. There is absolutely nothing worthwhile, encyclopedic, or relevant in the "Infanticide" section. Alan Keyes is a marginal politician who holds a decidedly fringe view regarding abortion the details of his infanticide charges have no bearing on a biographical article on the president. The other is a simplistic treatise on the rough and tumble style of politics that Chicagoans are infamous for. Nothing really special about Obama being another in a long line of them. No offennse, but all of this text is just a big pile of "meh", more suited to the freerepublic or the Conservopedia. Tarc (talk) 06:28, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Both of which deal with 2 major parts of his entire history. To deny them is to deny all of the facts about his past. People don't know much about Obama or his past in general. I live in Illinois. I followed the events of these elections. I went to one of his town hall meetings back in 2004. These are not being reported by Misplaced Pages because they are attacks on Obama. They are not being reported because, despite being major historical aspects of the real Barack Obama, the only Obama Misplaced Pages wants presented is a rosy picture with major pieces of that picture missing.

Of his early political career in 2004 nothing is mentioned negatively. Not that he used these tactics to defeat Palmer. Not that the racial profiling bill he sponsored was originally the work of a guy who is still so sore about it (Hendon) that they had a physical confrontation in the last 2 years. Any other politician and this stuff would be put in right away. You are deliberately keeping out all critical aspects of his career in a way that no other politician on Misplaced Pages is treated.

As for the infanticide, that has been pointed out by almost every major news publication you could name at one point or another. It's been picked up on heavily across the web. FactCheck.org, who has a better reputation for fact-checking than Misplaced Pages, admitted it had merit. That is a part of his career that Alan Keyes, Jill Stanek, and others have criticized him publicly over for years. You just want it covered up so that nobody can even consider that it might be an issue - though it is, clearly.

I made only 2 sections because I only wanted to deal with the content I was most familiar with and knew was indisputable. I wanted to avoid controversial facts when posting to Misplaced Pages so everyone could agree they were facts, since there is still no denying any of the things I said.

As I said before, I don't support the exact wording being put in. But it should be mentioned at points in the article that Palmer was treated as she was, and that Alan Keyes prominently opposed him for the reasons he did. And concerning Keyes, he ran a campaign against Obama primarily on that one issue alone with less than 3 months in the election and no built-up campaign structure whatsoever, yet still managed almost 30% of the vote. When he came in, Obama had been campaigning for months and the press attacked Keyes from the beginning, and did not give him equivalent time in debates or in the newspapers, and many took time to even learn Keyes was running at all.

As for those 'fringe views', the majority of Americans for the first time were pro-life as opposed to pro-choice, according to Gallup. What is more, only 23% say abortion should be legal under any circumstances, and never has that percentage been higher than 34% - meaning the majority of Americans overwhelmingly say abortion should be legal only in cases where the mother's life is in danger or rape/incest has occurred.]

As for your excuse that this is just another part of Chicago politics and thus not worth reporting on, that does not prevent Misplaced Pages from having a big long 'Controversies' section for Mayor Richard M. Daley and ex-Governor Rod Blagojevich. But of course I'm sure you'd say those are different, right? -.^

--Jzyehoshua (talk) 09:31, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Since Jzyehoshua seems to be having serious difficulty understanding this, it seems we have to point it out in very simple terms. There are absolutely no circumstances whatsoever under which any biography will assert that a view on abortion equates to support for infanticide. None. If you want to write crap like that, go to Conservapedia or Free Republic. Any editor who tries to do this in an article will almost certainly be blocked if not banned, and any editor who edit wars to include such ridiculously loaded terms on a talk page will also very likely end up blocked. I hope this is sufficiently clear that the fools edit warring over this idiocy will now understand. Guy (Help!) 09:03, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Even use of the term, though it is being used widely by the pro-life movement including the NRLC, and referred to by FactCheck.org, as well as major publications, can not be used? You are not even allowing the issue to be broached, no matter how major an issue it is. At this point it has reached the same level of liberal bias evident in NBC and reported on by the Pew Research Center's Project for Excellence in Journalism, a study revealing the press provided levels of bias not only in how much extra air time they gave to Obama as opposed to McCain, but also the levels of favorability. It found considerable bias by all major news channels but Fox News in favor of Democrats.

This is also shown by the levels of industry donations for the media. 70% historically of all donations go to Democrats, and just 29% to Republicans. For 2010, it was 76% for Democrats.]

Therefore, you can call names all you want, using the ad hominem tactics all you want, and I'd imagine you'll have a few straw men to throw into the mix as well, but that doesn't negate the fact that you are wrong, you know you're wrong, I know you're wrong, and whatever the decision reached here becomes, that does not make the record of your evil any less.

--Jzyehoshua (talk) 09:31, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

I will repeat this, since you have difficulty comprehending it. There are absolutely no circumstances whatsoever under which any biography will assert that a view on abortion equates to support for infanticide. This is not a grey area, and if you continue to agitate for it then you will almost certainly be out of here. Nobody cares what the political support is for the pro-life or pro-choice movements, it is 100% unequivocally unacceptable to describe a pro-choice position in terms of infanticide, that is a characterisation that is so far from WP:NPOV that it is simply never going to be appropriate. If you think the article fails because of that then you are in the wrong place, go to Conservapedia. Guy (Help!) 10:39, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

My original article never used the term infanticide except in mentioning that FactCheck.org had written an article called "Obama and 'Infanticide'", and in the title - where I still put infanticide in parentheses just to make clear it was just referring to the assertions of others, not trying to push the accusation itself. As I've said repeatedly now, had I known people would get so offended at simply quoting the use of the term by others I would have just used a different term for it like live-birth abortion. The article was simply citing FactCheck.org who had used the term and referring to senate opponent Keyes, who did call Obama's voting record infanticide. In retrospect, I'd meant to provide a quote of Keyes using the term infanticide, but just forgot while writing. I never said Misplaced Pages should assert a view on abortion is similar to infanticide, the article when I wrote it was just pointing out it was a major criticism of Obama's and then quoting the exact statements by Obama that led to the controversy, as well as mentioning the objective examination of this by independent research evaluator, FactCheck.org. If you read what I wrote, you'd see I was trying to avoid framing it, and simply to state the facts, only mentioning that it was the primary criticism of Obama's 2004 senate opponent and thus addressed by FactCheck.org. I did not render an opinion about it myself. Nevertheless, I have proposed edits different from that original article now, that I likewise feel avoid presenting an opinion but rather simply report the facts. --Jzyehoshua (talk) 15:35, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

Consensus

BOTTOM LINE: As I said before, I recognize now that Misplaced Pages is trying to get away from such 'controversies' sections, even though I think it odd that such sections still exist for the other aforementioned Illinois politicians like Rod Blagojevich and Mayor Richard M. Daley. However, while I would NO LONGER support the inclusion of my original section with its lengthy discourse on infanticide, I still state that it should be mentioned that certain points in Obama's past had negative aspects, to avoid liberal bias. These should include:

• • Early political tactics. When mentioning Alison Palmer, it should be noted that she and the other 3 early opponents of Obama were knocked off by ballots rather than beaten in political races as a result of him challenging their petition signatures. If there is going to a 1996-2004 section mentioning Palmer, it might as well mention this valid historical aspect of what happened.
  • Details about the Keyes race. If it is going to be mentioned like that, it might as well be mentioned that Keyes had just 3 months left before the elections when entering, and was challenging Obama primarily on the issue of late-term abortions. If people don't want to see the term 'infanticide' used I am fine with that, although it was one used heavily by Keyes and others. It could also be mentioned that the media played a part in deciding the race's outcome, first by attacking Keyes as a carpetbagger and later for his daughter Maya Keyes being gay (both of which were major aspects of the race).
  • It could also be mentioned what Obama's role was with Senator Emil Jones in gaining his U.S. Senate seat, and how he is recorded as asking for that seat, an unusual step. However, I know this will take talking about as it will need to be heavily sourced. Nevertheless, I am confident the sources can be brought forth. --Jzyehoshua (talk) 09:57, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

You want the article to have three additions. One of these you say needs better sourcing, and another in part concerns reasons why another candidate failed (reasons that you haven't linked above to Obama at all). Perhaps you should concentrate on whatever you think is your strongest point. Phrase it persuasively, and it might persuade. -- Hoary (talk) 10:21, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Well, in the article itself, it states about the 2004 Senate Campaign, "Two months later, Alan Keyes accepted the Illinois Republican Party's nomination to replace Ryan. A long-time resident of Maryland, Keyes established legal residency in Illinois with the nomination. In the November 2004 general election, Obama received 70% of the vote to Keyes' 27%, the largest victory margin for a statewide race in Illinois history." For so major an event in Obama's life, the election to the U.S. Senate, this race is effectively covered in about 3 sentences, and glosses over the reasons why Keyes came to Illinois and the fact that the election was virtually over, seemingly to portray Keyes as negatively as possible. In essence, it is bringing up the carpetbagging stuff again and the concept that Obama won in a landslide, without mentioning anything about why Keyes came or why Obama won that way. There are no details given, it is vague, and again that's a major election in his history being glossed over with a few sentences. I don't see why adding a few more paragraphs about the election circumstances would be a bad thing.

As for the sourcing, I think I provided adequate sourcing (earlier articles by the Chicago Tribune and Houston News both provide evidence) but expect one or 2 more major sources might be ideal given that this was a less-reported-on issue. I still think all 3 should make it into the article.

Also, I notice that the information about the 2008 Presidential Campaign on John McCain's page is more detailed and mentions lobbyist criticisms, but here avoids mentions of the much more prominent fiscal issue in Obama's campaign, public financing. Again, reading different pages for candidates on both sides one can see very different treatment, whether comparing Bush:Obama, McCain:Obama, Palin:Obama, Keyes:Obama, etc. Noticeable negatives are stated on the other pages, but never on Obama's, quite noticeably. --Jzyehoshua (talk) 11:14, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

In response to the earlier "Both of which deal with 2 major parts of his entire history", I will say that, no, they really don't. "Abortion as infanticide" is a fringe opinion, and will not be given equal weight alongside mainstream POV. The other part is, astill, just a criticism of being a Chicago politician. Nothing special. As to comparisons with other articles, perhaps you could head on out there and improve those if you feel they are flawed, rather than making this article worse so they will all match. Tarc (talk) 12:36, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Umm... what are you talking about? I never said abortion was infanticide. We're not talking about babies INSIDE the mother's body here. The reason it's controversial with Obama is he supported the killing of children who survive abortions and are OUTSIDE the mother's body. Didn't you read what I wrote? --Jzyehoshua (talk) 12:40, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I did, but that is what we call a distinction without a difference. This is not the proper venue to discuss anti-abortionist rhetoric though, this is to discuss the article of Barack Obama. This sort of material is certain;y of pressing significance to Alan Keyes, Operation Rescue and the like. But it has no bearing here. Tarc (talk) 13:35, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

You may not consider it immoral that Obama supported leaving newborn children to die on hospital beds. But it resulted, as he said on the Illinois senate floor, in a situation where even normally pro-choice members of the Illinois legislature supporting the bill to stop such a heinous practices. It is why the federal Born Alive Infants Protection Act passed, not even normally pro-choice Congressmen could conscientiously support such a form of 'rights' where newborn babies are considered fetuses. It is why Obama has had to hide this aspect of his voting record from people many, many times. He has tried various defenses, including:

A) I would have voted for the Federal version of the bill but the Illinois version lacked the same language. FactCheck.org addressed this distortion by agreeing that the NRLC was right - Bart Stupak introduced an amendment to make the Illinois version word for word identical with the federal one, but Obama never let it get in. He brought it up in the Health and Human Services Committee, that he chaired, and voted against it. Thus Obama was lying about that.

B) The current Illinois laws already prevented such a practice. However, nurses Jill Stanek and Allison Baker both worked in an Illinois hospital, and were the key witnesses for the federal case - meaning this dealt with Illinois law first and foremost. This was pointed out in one of the earlier senate transcripts I provided, either the 2001 or 1997 one.

C) We shouldn't be talking about divisive subjects and focusing on what unifies us, the issue is unimportant. This despite the fact that he consistently speaks much differently about it on the senate floor, addresses it before Planned Parenthood unabashedly, and is just unwilling to show himself about it to the general public.

Many of his other defenses are detailed here by Jill Stanek.]

It is dishonest of you to try mentioning a lesser known group in conjunction with former U.N. Ambassador Alan Keyes in an attempt to continue your campaign to paint him as a fringe unknown, while avoiding the fact that the National Right to Life Committee, the primary pro-life group in the United States, has been tirelessly criticizing Barack Obama for years on this issue. You should be more forthright and forthcoming about this issue, rather than trying to deny the clear facts about this case. --Jzyehoshua (talk) 13:55, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

All of which bears the stamp of a singular point of view and, as noted before, a decidedly fringe one at that. Anyone that approaches any wikipedia article on a living person with the intent to insert charges of "infanticide" into it in reference to the abortion debate is already starting off with two strikes against them, IMO. By the way, worldnetdaily is a sterling exmaple of an unreliable source. Anything "detailed" by WND cannot be used as a citation in a Misplaced Pages article, apart for basic factual statements about themselves. I think this is at a dead-end. Tarc (talk) 14:09, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Considering that the term infanticide has now been used in reference to Obama by:

-the National Right to Life Committee]

-CBS/The Associated Press]

-The Washington Post]

-Chicago Tribune]]

-Time Magazine's Real Clear Politics]]

-FactCheck.org]

-The New York Times]

-Newsweek] (the FactCheck article)

-Newsbusters.org]

-U.S. Senator Rick Santorum]

-U.S. Senator Pat Moynihan]

-Sean Hannity]

-Rush Limbaugh]

-Ann Coulter]

-National Review]

-TownHall.com]

-Jill Stanek]

-HumanEvents.com]

-World Net Daily]

Obama even felt enough heat on the issue to address the Chicago Tribune about it directly with his website FightTheSmears.]]

That is not even including those like John McCain], Sarah Palin], and the National Organization of Women (Clinton supporters)] who accused Obama of it but did not specifically use the word 'infanticide'.

Therefore, if you want to consider me discredited for using the word 'infanticide' in reference to Obama, I consider myself in good company, and find no problem with having done so, since I was merely following precedent in using a common term to refer to his voting record that has been frequently applied to him in the media and by national figures. As far as I am concerned, it is you who have long since been discredited for suggesting opposition to infanticide does not matter and is a fringe view, while considering discredited many major news organizations in the U.S.

--Jzyehoshua (talk) 15:46, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

P.S. It should further be pointed out that there is ALREADY a Misplaced Pages article addressing Jill Stanek's claims of Obama's infanticide (and yes, it uses that term).]

You are intermingling coverage of the charges with advocacy of the charges, which I'm sorry to say is a rather intellectually dishonest approach to the matter. Half of that list consists of unreliable sources, then a pair of opinion pieces by Senators, and the rest a handful of reliable sources. The CBS citation for example notes "Abortion opponents see Obama's vote on medical care for aborted fetuses as a refusal to protect the helpless. Some have even accused him of supporting infanticide". That doesn't give weight or credence to the allegations, it simply reports that political opponents have said it, as does the passage in Stanek's wiki-article. No in-depth analysis or coverage, because it is a trivial and dismissible charge, much as "baby killer" would be in reference to Bush in regards to the Iraq invasion.

Fightthesmears.com was setup for the precise purpose of shooting down conspiracy-tinged idiocy such as this. This is why we have a separate Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories article to cover the Birthers and their Certifi-gate campaign; it has no real bearing on the biographical article of Obama, as it is a criticism so far out of the mainstream as to be almost laughable. I'm sorry that a favored cause of yours...induced abortion == murder...isn't gaining the traction that you'd like it to. But you're in the wrong place in attempting to fight that battle. I think that is about my last word on this subject, as it is beginning to get circular. Tarc (talk) 16:23, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

It was never intended to be a good list of links. All it was meant to do was show that the use of the words 'Obama' and 'infanticide' occurred by major news outlets, to disprove your argument that because I did that anything I said was disqualified. Obviously I was not trying to make a good list of links, merely ones showing that such a view is not the fringe view you've said, and has received national media attention. In that regard, my list achieved its goal.

I had 8 links in my original post and already provided those. Those were the original sourcing and I have seen no one try to deny their validity as of yet. Nor am I seeing anyone who dislikes my proposed consensus above as of yet except you. --Jzyehoshua (talk) 02:37, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

You have misunderstood a fundamental fact about sources. When you say that the term infanticide has now been used in reference to Obama by the sources, you are misrepresenting the facts. The sources all note that the term has been used by some (usually un-named) activists in the pro-life movement, that is a very long way from saying that these sources endorse or subscribe to that view. It is an extremist POV, something the sources make clear. There are not eight sources for the assertion, there's one: the National Right to Life Committee. And they are absolutely not neutral. Guy (Help!) 10:49, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

The NRLC was not one of my original 8 links. 3 of the 8 original links did not even deal with the infanticide issue. 1 was simply reporting on Keyes' statements about infanticide and 2 were senate transcripts simply recording the Obama conversations. And the FactCheck one simply addressed the NRLC's accusations against Obama. Are you sure you are addressing the 8 links I posted in my 'Further Commentary' 05:37, 18 December 2009 (UTC) post, which were those mentioned in the originally archived post suggestion? --Jzyehoshua (talk) 15:11, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

You're missing the point. When the press report what extremists say, that does not validate the extremist view or make it anything other than a view held by extremists. What you are proposing is partly a novel synthesis form published facts and partly giving undue weight to extremist views. Worse, you seem to be having trouble comprehending the patient explanations you've been given. Guy (Help!) 22:14, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

NPOV

This article is blatantly in favor of Obama. There isn't even a criticisms area. In the economic section, not a word is devoted to any of the bailouts made available to Wall Street or foreign banks. Nothing is stated about the trillions the Fed handed over to recipients they refuse to disclose. The AIG scandal is left completely out. There is nothing in this article that lends any opposing voice to Obama's presidency.

I believe I'm done editing Misplaced Pages articles. Places have turned into travel brochures instead of accurate representations of the areas (Downtown Eastside is an excellent example of this propagandizing) and living persons are often idolized. When an individual steps up to fix the article, it is often removed by rabidly partisan Wiki-ers. Misplaced Pages is nothing like it was in years past. What began as an honest attempt is now a mouthpiece in a popularity contest.

NoHitHair (talk) 23:49, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

Probably because you are looking in the wrong article. Most of those things would be in the Presidency of Barack Obama, not this, which is a biography of the man, not a play by play of his presidency. Have fun leaving though, it's always great to work with people who shout a lot and then say they hate you. Don't let the Internet ports slam in your ass as you close them. --OuroborosCobra (talk) 00:20, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

I don't understand how the second half of that could be imagined to be helpful. -- Hoary (talk) 10:16, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

As OuroborosCobra correctly states, most information about Obama's presidency is contained in Presidency of Barack Obama. Since this article is supposed to be a biography that is intended to provide a brief look at his entire life, it doesn't make sense to put more about the presidency than is already there. Also, Misplaced Pages discourages criticism sections. They do not provide for neutral articles, and criticisms (cited of course) should be incoporated into the rest of the article. WHSL 13:40, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

I wouldn't be surprised if it weren't mentioned in this response if three more editors had already posted here, because the economic literacy in this world is not the greatest, but this is a simple issue of recent memory of timelines: the AIG "scandal" is the result of a "bailout" that began in the late summer of 2008, before the 2008 election and during the Presidency of George W. Bush, and that—and not the Presidency of Barack Obama article—would be where this "scandal" bears mentioning. Whether someone who would suggest it be added here will actually go through with adding it there or not remains to be seen, but as with every subject raised at this page, I would highly recommend actually reading an article on the subject before suggesting its addition here.

Misplaced Pages, in fact, has an article about AIG to remind readers such as yourself of this timeline, and it notes that AIG disclosed "a list of major recipients of collateral postings and payments under credit default swaps, guaranteed investment plans, and securities lending agreements" including Goldman Sachs and Société Générale, again, something that transpired in 2008, prior to the presidency of Barack Obama.

Finally, the upper amount involved in the AIG "bailout" is $182.5 Billion, some of which actually purchased mortgage-based assets (thereby not technically part of a "bailout", but instead a "buyout", the sort of investment it's not unheard of for the government to make) and some of which is an as-yet unused credit line (and so still actually in the hands of the U.S. government and not AIG). So it is some fraction less than one-twentieth of the "trillions" that you characterize it as being. Again, getting your facts somewhere within the ballpark before making an editorial suggestion would vastly improve your chances of not being considered an uninformed ideologue simply out to smear someone with revisionist history.

To the contrary of your accusation of POV in favor of Obama, I would say is there not a negative POV advanced by failing to mention in this article that the major banks have now all paid back their TARP "bailout" money to the government ("taxpayer") with interest? I would ask is there not a pessimistic or negative POV advanced by failing to mention in this article that the DOW has risen almost 4,000 points since March lows? Is there not a negative POV advanced by simply noting an unemployment number, yet failing to explain that new job losses, which had risen throughout the last couple years of the Bush administration to 700,000 a month by the time Obama took office, have decreased profoundly ever since? It's no surprise that the sort of people suggesting negative POV at this article miss the negative POV already there, but it's a disappointment that those battling the negative POV are so unaware or ambivalent about the imbalanced negativity in the article.

Recently, I substantively responded, with references, to erroneous comments in a conversation about the Stimulus, yet not a single editor here commented and after 14 days it was archived. The true POV is against adding positive facts, not the resistance to the sort of vague, unreferenced hearsay grudges that dominate these pages. Just every once in a while, we need to wrap our minds around an issue and respond with more than the stock "take it to Presidency" answer. I'd point out that nobody's really discussing anything at Presidency lately. The entire talk page there is two sections, with only a single, unresponded-to comment in the past month. Sometimes a thread can seem to include elements of specific responses to other editors, but when substantive, supported statements salient to a point of contention and relevant for article consideration are made, editors are more than welcome to weigh in with their acknowledgement of their veracity and relevancy to the article. When there was nothing going on but delinquency at both of these pages, it was hard to keep up with more substantive editorial discussions; now that there is so much less heat, let's acknowledge the light every once in awhile. Abrazame (talk) 14:15, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

All of which is true. Nevertheless, it was a Democrat-run Congress those last few years of the Bush presidency. And Obama voted in favor of the Bush tax cuts and TARP. He also voted in favor of ALL Bush's war funding requests.

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2007/03/22/obama_defends_votes_in_favor_of_iraq_funding/

In July of 2008 the Wall Street Journal even ran an article pointing out the similarities and suggesting Obama was Bush's third term.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121495450490321133.html

CNN meanwhile ran an article pointing out 20 similarities between Bush and Obama on policy issues

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/13/wall.bush-obama/index.html

Many people do not realize that Obama even copied Bush's state of the union address from 2000, when he said 'Juntos Pudemos' or 'Together We Can'. If you look into their backgrounds and personality types, you might find more similar than you'd think.

PolitiFact also labeled as 'True' the statement by the McCain campaign that Obama supported the Bush campaign half the time.] It was noted in 2005 that Obama supported attacking Iran with missile strikes to stop their nuclear program.] --Jzyehoshua (talk) 14:32, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Comment about proposal

Title altered from "absurd propaganda" so as to remain neutral - Wikidemon (talk) 03:40, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Does anyone, including the admins here, really believe that the absurd propaganda being pushed by Jzyehoshua should be added to the Barack Obama article? I think it should be deleted from the talk page. As for WP:NPOV, does anyone think that is a user went to the George W. Bush article and tried to insert stuff about him killing babies in Iraq or whatever that it would be added to the article, or if the user went to the talk page and littered it with election propaganda or accusations, that the user would not be reprimanded? Do we allow editors to do that type of vandalism to articles about anyone? Are the 'truthers' given a voice on the GWB talk page? Everyone should know that the fringe is not allowed into the WP:BLP and that even on the talk pages it is against policy. How long are we going to allow this to go on in the guise of being neutral? DD2K (talk) 15:04, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Jzyehoshua has been instructed to achieve WP:CONSENSUS on this talk page before adding the material to the article. The process is running its course. Name-calling and calls for admins to "do something" (previous thread) won't help at this point. Whether or not any of the material can be added will be decided by consensus. Whether or not a user will be blocked will depend on adherence to policy. I don't see a need for any more consideration than that.  Frank  |  talk  15:18, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

So the addition of Jzyehoshua asking if Barack Obama supports killing infants is ok? That is allowed, even on the talk page? Don't get me wrong, if members of Code Pink were on the George W Bush article pushing their agenda(accusations of murder and such), I think the same warnings should apply. The user in question is obviously not trying to 'achieve WP:CONSENSUS and is using the talk page as a soapbox to push an agenda. I don't see how anyone can see it differently. How can his edits be described as coming from a WP:NPOV? In any way? DD2K (talk) 15:28, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

When a relatively new user (under 200 total edits, along with only three this year before edits to Barack Obama) comes in, guns blazing, and is told the right way to do things around here, and then complies, I think the process is working. That's not the same as saying I think any particular edit is OK. And, in fact, the implications (which are WP:OR anyway) are inappropriate. But we cannot expect new users to understand all the vast workings of Misplaced Pages instantly.  Frank  |  talk  15:41, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

I understand, and think your suggestions were very appropriate when the user tried to add the text to the article. My problem lays with the wording on the Talk page, not the procedure. The accusations of murder should not have any place here, on articles or talk pages. And that what is being accused here, the definition of the word is clear, 1, 2, 3. Allowing those accusations to stand, even on the talk page, should obviously be against the rules. DD2K (talk) 15:54, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

We must have a place for some amount of discussion, even if the entire thrust of the conversation is to point out that a particular view is unsupportable, at least in a Misplaced Pages article. At some point - possibly following the list added above which includes the assertion that (late) Senator Moynihan has commented on Obama - editors with views which are considered fringe (whether sources exist or not) will "get it". One way or another. But if we just say "go away, we don't like you", we're not doing the project any good and indeed are supporting the (incorrect) view that only certain points of view are allowed. WP:CONSENSUS, WP:V, and WP:NPOV are actually somewhat tricky concepts, I think...and that has nothing to do with Misplaced Pages. Add to that the fact that this is an online-only medium, and it becomes trickier still.  Frank  |  talk  16:05, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Frank, nobody's expected to read all the links from an ideologue pest hopping from thread to thread pushing the same strident issue like this, but Moynihan—who died in 2001—obviously did not comment on Obama. Moynihan probably never heard of Obama. This editor is simply reaching back into history to note that Moynihan made a general characterization about partial-birth abortion. When a relatively new user dredges up all his favorite comments about abortion even when they're unrelated to the subject of this article, simply to push a point about abortion, he shouldn't be allowed to post his treatise and pursue it all over the page, he should be directed to the abortion article. This is a real and difficult issue, and I respect what I presume is the editor's position on the issue, but it is clear that it is not one with particular relevance to the biography of Barack Obama. Parading issues like this one through BLPs and their talk pages is editorially irresponsible campaigning. You seem to have a misunderstanding of the concept of consensus. Consensus is not about a gang (or a gang of one) to win the exclusion of relevant, salient, properly-weighted, balanced, encyclopedic and contextual facts, in favor of some mistaken POV, nor is it about allowing activists to trot out patently unacceptable, irrelevant propaganda in an effort to draw smeary connections to an individual that aren't really there and create a controversy where there isn't one. Moynihan's non-Obama-related quote is repeated in another of his refs, which he erroneously calls "Time Magazine's Real Clear Politics" but which in fact is an opinion piece by Pat Buchanan; the other ref there is an opinion piece by Rush Limbaugh's little brother. As if somebody even has to click on any of the refs when the final one is World Net Daily. Abrazame (talk) 17:00, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Of course, because a few articles you can discredit void the ones by the New York Times, Washington Post, et. al. Perhaps you should be reading the Argument from fallacy page, or better yet, the article on Cherry picking. There is a reason they were listed lower, they were simply thrown in as fillers. And with Moynihan, his quote is used not just by the Wall Street Journal and Washington Post but other articles as well dealing with Obama and infanticide, making one wonder if perhaps the quote did address Obama somehow. At any rate, stating a few dislikes with a few of the many sources posted, particularly those farther down the list, shows how desperate you are to debunk anything critical of Obama, and how willing to reach you are indeed. --Jzyehoshua (talk) 17:58, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

That's an inappropriate comment. If you continue, this discussion will soon be closed. Please review and follow the terms of article probation, described by link at the top of this page. The Washington Post and New York Times sources do not check out, and given the loaded language you are proposing and the derogatory comments directed at other editors I and others are not willing to further entertain a discussion on the topic at this time. If you want to propose a specific change in the article, particularly one describing a minority position, please support it with a few concise, apt citations, and do not use the occasion to make accusations about the motives of other editors. - Wikidemon (talk) 18:10, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

As for the links themselves, I am just not understanding why all the focus on attacking them. Obviously they were not main article supporting, content-related links like the list I originally posted (1-7), and it should've been clear from the discussion that I was simply doing a quick 20 minutes of research to find links showing that the word 'infanticide' has been used by major publications, in response to someone who said that my use of the word 'infanticide' disqualified anything I could say. Why editors are treating these like my primary source links, when I never said they were, is utterly incomprehensible to me. It seems very dishonest of them to attack the 20 minute research links and avoid the primary links I originally mentioned.

As the discussion should have shown, the goal in posting them was not primary support for the infanticide criticism itself, but simply to show that major news outlets have used the term 'infanticide' in reference to Obama, and that by using the term I had not 'disqualified' myself from being able to make a reasonable argument. The subject was not on standalone links to support my original written piece, but whether infanticide had been used in reference to Obama by major news outlets, and using the term in reference to him was a 'fringe' view.

In that regard, I still believe my links all achieved their purpose, regardless of whether people like who wrote them or not, it remains a fact that major news outlets let the words Obama and infanticide coexist in their publications, and thus I should not be ridiculed like those here wanted me to be simply for following precedent in using the term in reference to Barack Obama. --Jzyehoshua (talk) 01:58, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Juxtaposing "Obama" and "infanticide" will take an enormous weight of bullet proof reliable sourcing in order to comply with WP:BLP, which is policy. The fact that folks out there have made that juxtaposition does not automatically merit inclusion in this article. Folks have made a wide variety of claims of all different fashion, and wikipedia is not here to air them all out, but merely to summarize what the majority of mainstream reliable sources say to comply with WP:NPOV and to avoid WP:UNDUE weight to fringey commentary. Jzyehoshua, there is no consensus to add your text. You can chalk it up to whatever type of bias or guardianship you like, but the truth of the matter is that these claims do not pass WP:BLP --guyzero | talk 18:09, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

I am fully aware of how consensus works, and you may note I referred to Moynihan (d. 2003) above as a thin "reference". I get it (and you already know that). I'm not at all asserting a user (new or otherwise) should have free reign to parade these sorts of issues all over the project. I'm just saying we're not doing ourselves any favors if we start yelling for blocks as soon as someone stumbles in here with 7K of text in an article that pretty much doesn't belong and is unlikely ever to be put in the article in any form. If we don't explain the process, it won't be understood. The question here isn't whether or not I understand consensus...the real point is whether or not a user with under 200 edits who suddenly decides the world needs to know something more about Obama understands it, and shutting down conversation isn't going to achieve that understanding. Having said all that, I suspect there has been enough conversation - in this thread and certainly above - that the process is revealing itself rather quickly and specifically as regards this article, which is all I was suggesting was appropriate. At least - that's what I was trying to suggest.  Frank  |  talk  17:19, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

(ec) The "right way to do things" certainly does not involve repeatedly starting and perpetuating this kind of discussion. This is a distraction, with no reasonable likelihood of leading to any changes to the article or anything else productive. In form, yes, reasonable proposals should be discussed civilly and rationally on talk pages. But going through that motion with a proposal so vastly inappropriate is a hollow gesture. Worse, when proposals like this are accompanied with accusations of bad faith and ad hominem attacks on the body of editors here for being part of a supposed liberal cabal, they're dead on arrival - and a clear violation of the article probation terms. We have not had real trouble on the article for months, but at other times when events external to Misplaced Pages brought people flocking here on a mission, things degenerated. If a new editor needs some training wheels I don't think this is the place. Humoring bad requests sends the wrong message to an editor here with a political agenda inconsistent with the project, that they can soapbox on important articles. A firm but polite "no thanks" should suffice, with a pointer to the rules. If that doesn't sink in I think we should close down the discussion, and let the editor ponder why their approach isn't working rather than pondering how they might shoehorn bad content into the encyclopedia. - Wikidemon (talk) 17:08, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

For what I anticipate to be my last comment on this issue, in response to User:Jzyehoshua's above comment to me, I wasn't cherry-picking; I don't play games with myself or evade salient editorial issues on this page, I went for the two I thought were the least likely to be desperate partisan editorial diatribes—the ones you attributed to Time magazine—and yet in fact that is precisely what they were.

So, just to prove to myself that I was not wrong about your litany of references, I clicked on The Washington Post link to arrive at an Op-Ed piece written by Michael Gershon during the campaign. Gershon was recruited by Karl Rove to serve as George W. Bush's campaign as speechwriter and, erm, did so well at it that he served as Bush's chief speechwriter from 2001 until June 2006, as a senior policy advisor from 2000 through June 2006, and was a member of the White House Iraq Group, apparently coining the unproductive phrase "Axis of Evil" and suggesting the inclusion of the unfounded phrase "mushroom cloud" in the run-up to war. He was named by Time magazine as the 9th most influential Evangelical in America in 2005. He went on to write for Newsweek and other periodicals. (Further to the issue of media impartiality, I would note that his replacement as Bush's speechwriter was Wall Street Journal chief editor William McGurn.)

As to your NYT ref, the page to which you link points out that the Catholic stance on abortion would be a tough standard for any supporter of abortion rights to meet, and acknowledges that it was a campaign tactic of the Republicans to try to depict Obama as a radical because of his vote on that bill, regardless of his explanation of that bill's unconstitutionality.

I would point out to Frank that he wasn't clear at all in what he wrote about Moynihan (I acknowledge his correction that Moynihan retired in 2001, and passed away in 2003), as evidenced by this editor's being still here writing "(Moynihan's) quote (being used by the WSJ and Washington Post) mak(es) one wonder if perhaps the quote did address Obama somehow." Perhaps it makes one wonder, but this page isn't for the wonderings of a single Wikipedian, least of all one who doesn't realize that Obama's position on abortion in 1996-'97, when Moynihan's statements were made and Obama would have only just been running for the Illinois State Senate, would not be a blip on Moynihan's radar (some years prior to the night he became a "rising star within the Democratic party"). That so many deeply partisan Republicans were still quoting the esteemed late Catholic senator more than a decade later, in the midst of a presidential election, seems like the desperate cherry-picking reach to me. Though it hardly makes one wonder. Abrazame (talk) 19:03, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

The question of including Jz's proposals is irrelevant, as long as he has no consensus for those additions. GoodDay (talk) 20:13, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Hmm... Can I take it you didn't bother reading that big, bolded post I made starting with the words "Bottom Line" which aimed at just that, a consensus, and to state where I stood on this perfectly? I only bothered bolding one post you know, and it seems few here have actually read it. I bulleted it too. Perhaps I should just make it a new section too.

--Jzyehoshua (talk) 02:26, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

• ehem* putting that last little outburst aside…I think it’s time to move along. What Jzyehoshua tried to add to the article was absurd and continuing to debate about it is a waste of editors time.--Sooo Kawaii!!! ^__^ (talk) 20:39, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

I have 2 points I would like to make:

• I made a consensus post. I bolded it, bulleted it, and now made it a new section just in case it was still getting overlooked. Nobody but Hoary and Tarc addressed it at all, with Tarc the only one critical of it. And yet there were still people saying I had not suggested a consensus, which made no sense.
• Why this was closed with such a comment attacking Alan Keyes I am not sure. I am not sure what Sceptre is hearing about Keyes over there in England, but I have lived through the 2004 Illinois Senate race, attended an Obama townhall meeting in the area, and supported the Keyes campaign at the time. Keyes has received a lot of bad press, but simply disqualifying any talk about a subject because he was mentioned (and was not even a primary subject in the discussion either), and ending the discussion with use of the Association, 'Appeal to Ridicule', and Hasty Generalization fallacies, not to mention a potential straw man, seems an poor method for a moderator.

Nevertheless, I feel I proposed a consensus that did not sustain much objection and thus suppose the discussion has at any rate run its course. I appreciate those that provided input without resorting to personal attacks.

--Jzyehoshua (talk) 03:26, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

It is hard to know who is responding to what because this discussion has become so long and disorderly, but I count User:DD2K, User:Misortie, User:GoodDay, User:Guyzero, User:Abrazame, User:JzG, User:Grsz11, User:Tarc, myself, and possibly User:Frank objecting at one time or another to various proposals, without a single editor expressing explicit support (although one or two have chimed in with general complaints about the article). There is also discussion currently at WP:AN/I about the length and heat of this section being a problem. If you can propose some specific text that is neutral in tone, with facts reasonably supported by reliable sources both as to their accuracy and their WP:WEIGHT as a relevant and significant part of Obama's biographical history. If you decide to go that route, please propose these things respectfully and without accusing other editors of things or declaring that your arguments are superior or have consensus. That way they can get a fair hearing. Don't be offended if they are rejected or if people's patience for this is running thin - the proposals to date have been biased and weakly sourced. Further, even if described fairly some of them have been considered and rejected before, and are probably better for other articles than this one. Further information about Obama's senate campaigns and career, for example, may be found in other articles. There is another article about his political positions, and one about his presidency. - Wikidemon (talk) 04:26, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Talk page censorship

In this edit, Sceptre rendered a section invisible, with the comment "I'm closing this as a massive clusterfuck. I can't seriously believe we're seriously discussing comments by Alan Keyes here."

For some reason it rendered more than one section invisible, at least as my particular browser (Epiphany) views the page. Perhaps that was because another HAT/HAB pair was nested within it. Merely in view of what it did to the rest of the page, Sceptre's edit, no matter how well-intentioned, was not a helpful one.

That technical matter aside, if any editor takes Keyes seriously, does this really render everything else the editor says thereabouts as unworthy of consideration?

Of course inane or mindlessly repeated objections can and should be rendered invisible or even deleted, and I've done this myself in my time on this very page (particularly for the comments of a vigorous, multinamed person who seemed to be of Hungarian extraction). But I strongly disagree with what I see as an overeagerness here to render objections invisible. I believe that most of the objections are unwarranted and a lot of the rejoinders to them are good. However, many of even what I consider unwarranted objections seem reasonably phrased. They merit refutation (or pointing toward a refutation), not deletion. Yes, editorial policy in this talk page is turning the talk page into the pastiche that its critics say it already is.

And if you must render material invisible, please use the "Show preview" button. -- Hoary (talk) 03:24, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Please don't use this page to accuse other editors of censorship. There is an apparent consensus to close. It is not a productive discussion. The format problem probably was caused by nested hat / hab templates. If you believe that editors conduct here is inappropriate you're welcome to take that up at the appropriate place, not here. The proposal to accuse Obama of infanticide, among other things, was pretty much dead on arrival but nevertheless remained open for considerable discussion. There is no actionable content proposal and the discussion was accompanied personal attacks and accusations of bad faith. This is exactly the sort of thing that article probation is supposed to enjoin. I had before an edit conflict refactored the closing comment to be more civil and fixed the formatting problem. Please don't reopen a closed discussion like this that is disrupting normal operation of the page. If there are no reasonable objections I urge that it be re-closed shortly so that we can return to productive discussion here. - Wikidemon (talk) 03:39, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Are you reading the entries by the user Jzyehoshua on this page? Have you looked at his edits of the Barack Obama article? I find it pretty unacceptable that a user has been allowed to accuse a WP:BLP of murdering infants numerous times, over and over, and to spam this talk page with comments well past Misplaced Pages limit. Over and over. This(the closing) has nothing to do with Alan Keyes. Does someone have to file a WP:BLP violation report on this, or are we going to fix it and warn the user? This whole diatribe is unacceptable. I am all for teaching new users the rules, but this is DEFINITELY not the way to do so. Allowing the murder allegations, allowing the user to give links that don't say what he claims they do, and to monopolize the page with idealogical diatribes over and over, is unacceptable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by DD2K (talk • contribs) 03:51, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

No actionable content proposal? What about the Consensus section above that was bolded and is still not being replied to? If you wanted specific statements about what that would involve, I could write them up very quickly. I was just waiting for more input on that section, which never came. As far as I was concerned, it already achieved consensus. But if editors would like me to provide the exact edits I would now make given the aforementioned Consensus section, I can provide them. --Jzyehoshua (talk) 03:44, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

What on earth are you talking about? If you propose something and it's rejected or ignored, it's quite a stretch to declare that you've "already achieved consensus." --Loonymonkey (talk) 03:54, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Wikidemon's totally right. And on the point about Alan Keyes: he's just a carpetbagger who blindly follows his party line—which, as a party line normally is, is 99% hot air—, lost by one of the greatest margins in American history, and was so butthurt by that fact that he continues to call Obama a communazislamosocialist fascist who was born in Kenya to this day. Sceptre 03:53, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

What did you know of Keyes? Do you really think he would come into a race he had zero chance of winning to carpetbag? A former U.N. Ambassador who was already running in his native Maryland for Congress and doing well, as well as for President - why do you think he came to Illinois with less than 3 months in an election against a candidate who'd been campaigning unopposed for months when he had no built up campaign structure or recognition? You really think he thought he'd get an office out of that?

His reason for coming was the voting record of Barack Obama on live birth abortion that I have been telling everyone about. He began criticizing Obama on that one day after entering Illinois, and said that was his reason for being here. He followed his heart to oppose what he saw as the greatest evil, or he surely wouldn't have taken such a political risk.

You are name-calling and using derogatory attacks against someone you've likely heard only second-hand information about. --Jzyehoshua (talk) 04:12, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

I understand that you have a low opinion of Keyes. (So do I, as it happens.) If you'd like to expand on it, you might consider doing so on a blog. -- Hoary (talk) 04:04, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Please don't reopen a closed discussion like this that is disrupting normal operation of the page. It was precisely the closing of the discussion that disrupted the normal operation of the page.

An accusation on a talk page that Obama committed, encouraged or condoned infanticide is ludicrous. Mention on the talk page that others claimed this is not necessarily ludicrous (after all, the US punditocracy is famous for the number and vigor of its nutballs), and, since Obama is prez and the US prez is about the most public person there is and routinely gets a lot of stick for just about anything (or indeed nothing at all), is hard to square with "BLP" measures designed for very different articles. In a few days, the section above will drift off into an archive, where it will be forgotten. That is the normal operation of this talk page. -- Hoary (talk) 04:00, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

That's not the way it works. Discussions that mess up the page get closed, and occasionally rejected proposals, overly long things, etc. Please don't undo that unless there's consensus, because it does truly disrupt our ability to discuss productive things around here. - Wikidemon (talk) 04:17, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Indeed. On most talk pages that's the protocol, but this isn't a normal talk page. This may be the bitter European liberal cynic in me speaking, but America has one of the most ignorant populaces in the developed world. I mean, I can't think of another first-world country where forty percent of its population deny reality (most of them traditional Republican voters, go figure). We need to get rid of the crazies in both of the sources and the talk page, so we don't waste all of our time when we could be discussing ideas with an air of credence instead of this stupid "abortion is infanticide" line of discussion. Sceptre 04:54, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Just checked. It's worse: 43%. For comparison, in Western Europe it ranges from 8% (Iceland) to around 20% (Germany, Italy, Ireland). Sceptre 04:57, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Sceptre, the longer you bang on about the iggernance of Americans in general and Republicans in particular, the more partisan appears your enthusiasm for clamping down on discussions. So please put a sock in it. -- Hoary (talk) 05:08, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

It was to reinforce the point that this talk page is for serious issues regarding Obama. You know, stuff to failure to commit to campaign promises. Not issues almost exclusively thrown around by reality deniers. Sceptre 05:11, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

All the same, let's all take a deep breath and try to de-escalate things, particularly the meta-discussion. If that contradicts anything I've said earlier, then maybe I've just taken a deep breath myself. If you're about to hit that "save page" button, maybe edit it once or twice to take out any loaded words? Think how it's going to sound to the person you're addressing? Even if someone has fringe beliefs (in your opinion) they're still a person trying to get along here, so we should treat everyone with the utmost dignity, kindness, and respect. That won't kill anyone, eh? Some of this we can talk about on each other's talk pages. There's an irony, because if the goal here is to steer the discussion back onto reasonable discussion for improving the article, the more we talk about the talk page and what's going on here, the less we're talking about content. I'm inviting Jzyehoshua to make measured, sourced, proposal unadorned with commentary about other editors, and to be fair we can respond in kind. Whether you want to archive the talk page or just start a new discussion, it won't kill us to try fresh. - Wikidemon (talk) 05:50, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the discussion. As promised, I've provided some sample edits to the page that I think can avoid any loaded words anyone might object to while still stating only clearly sourced and undeniable facts about Barack Obama's past, with the one exception being his Nobel peace prize. As I've kept stating, I gave up from the first post on the idea of trying to make a controversies section once I recognized Wikipeda wants to get away from those, and am trying to make them in the body of the page as 1 and 2 sentence changes here and there just to provide necessary elaboration when it won't go out of the way and is relevant. Anyway, thanks again for the opportunity! --Jzyehoshua (talk) 05:38, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

The following are my proposed edits to the Barack Obama page, with the intent being to make it more objective and comprehensive, rather than painting a deceivingly rosy picture of him.

1. Proposed Edit to introduction section.

Original: "Obama is the 2009 Nobel Peace Prize laureate."

Proposed: "Obama is the 2009 Nobel Peace Prize laureate, an honor which accompanied widespread criticism about his lack of accomplishment]] and confessed surprise by Barack Obama.]],

2. Proposed Edit to 'State legislator: 1997–2004' section.

Original: "Obama was elected to the Illinois Senate in 1996, succeeding State Senator Alice Palmer as Senator from Illinois's 13th District, which at that time spanned Chicago South Side neighborhoods from Hyde Park-Kenwood south to South Shore and west to Chicago Lawn."

Proposed: "Obama was elected to the Illinois Senate in 1996, succeeding State Senator Alice Palmer as Senator from Illinois's 13th District, which at that time spanned Chicago South Side neighborhoods from Hyde Park-Kenwood south to South Shore and west to Chicago Lawn. Obama won the election through use of lawyers to subsequently disqualify the petition signatures of Alice Palmer and 3 other opponents after the filing deadline.]]"

3. Proposed Edit to 'State legislator: 1997-2004' section.

Original: "In January 2003, Obama became chairman of the Illinois Senate's Health and Human Services Committee when Democrats, after a decade in the minority, regained a majority. He sponsored and led unanimous, bipartisan passage of legislation to monitor racial profiling by requiring police to record the race of drivers they detained, and legislation making Illinois the first state to mandate videotaping of homicide interrogations."

Proposed: "In January 2003, Obama became chairman of the Illinois Senate's Health and Human Services Committee when Democrats, after a decade in the minority, regained a majority. He sponsored and led unanimous, bipartisan passage of legislation to monitor racial profiling by requiring police to record the race of drivers they detained, and legislation making Illinois the first state to mandate videotaping of homicide interrogations. This legislation was originally worked on by Senator Rickey Hendon]], and was among numerous pieces of legislation given to Obama as part of a requested deal with his political mentor]], Senator Emil Jones.]]"

4. Proposed Edit to '2004 U.S. Senate campaign'.

Original: "Obama's expected opponent in the general election, Republican primary winner Jack Ryan, withdrew from the race in June 2004. Two months later, Alan Keyes accepted the Illinois Republican Party's nomination to replace Ryan. A long-time resident of Maryland, Keyes established legal residency in Illinois with the nomination. In the November 2004 general election, Obama received 70% of the vote to Keyes' 27%, the largest victory margin for a statewide race in Illinois history."

Proposed: "Obama's expected opponent in the general election, Republican primary winner Jack Ryan, withdrew from the race in June 2004 following a widely-reported sex scandal.] 2 months later, and with less than 3 months remaining in the election], former Ambassador to the United Nations' Social and Economic Council], Alan Keyes, accepted the Illinois Republican Party's nomination to replace Ryan. A long-time resident of Maryland, Keyes established legal residency in Illinois with the nomination. Following a race in which Keyes was heavily criticized as a 'carpetbagger'] by the press, and with Keyes running a negative campaign criticizing Obama on the issue of late-term abortions], Obama in the November 2004 general election received 70% of the vote to Keyes' 27%, the largest victory margin for a statewide race in Illinois history."

Ultimately I may add more suggestions later but this I think is a good start and comprises the bulk of the elaborations about his past I would like to see. --Jzyehoshua (talk) 05:09, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

In other news, an amputee has recalled that losing his legs "stings a little bit". Sceptre 05:30, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

I'll review them seriously when I have a chance. Whether we agree or not in the end, I appreciate your taking the invitation to start a new section and propose them straight, one at a time. I hope we can all keep up a dignified, collegial, supportive spirit discussing them (kicking several editors, and myself, under the table... ahem!). Thanks! - Wikidemon (talk) 05:52, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Alright, I look forward to talking about this objectively, thanks for the offer! --Jzyehoshua (talk) 06:00, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

I haven't taken the time to study the other suggestions yet, but the first one, I think, has immediately obvious problems. The introduction should not be longer than is necessary. The mention that he is the laureate merely acknowledges that he did receive the prize. It does not, in any way, project any position on whether he deserved that prize or not. You are proposing a change that changes that statement from being purely NPOV to one that could be called POV. We haven't even had enough time to see how history has judged the 2009 prize, so why are we mentioning this in an article that is supposed to provide an accurate overview of his entire life? WHSL 05:42, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Well, just to play Devil's Advocate here, if George Bush received a Nobel Peace Prize and got criticized for it, and we put that in the intro paragraph, people would be up in arms that it was merely mentioned without the opposition factor being mentioned as well. On Bush's page, for example, it spends many sentences discussing the issues of criticism and popularity loss just in the introduction. When an award receives as much criticism and controversy as Obama's Nobel Prize did, to not mention this even in passing in the prominent introduction is to essentially frame the fact in a positive and deceivingly so light. I do think the criticism/controversy should be mentioned at least in passing, or else not mention the award at all, or it is appearing to only provide positive details in the introduction section, in contrast to other profiles (such as George Bush's).

As for the 16 additional words used in the introduction, I think they are worthwhile for balancing out an introduction section that otherwise fails to mention ANY negative or critical aspect whatsoever. This is in sharp contrast to other political profiles which carry no such qualms about mentioning a critical fact or mention in the introduction to provide a more accurate and two-sided summary.

--Jzyehoshua (talk) 06:06, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Yes, Bush's page does discuss issues relating to his declining popularity. However, consider when Bush was president. His presidency is now over. It is history. We have had more time to consider the finer points of his presidency. However, Obama's winning of the Nobel Prize is in the recent past. We have not had the time to consider the historical implications of the 2009 prize. You cannot judge how historically controversial something actually was this early.
Also, your statement regarding "positive details" is not one I would agree with at all. I can't see anywhere statements like "he is rated a very popular president". How can something be overly positive if you cannot find obviously positive statements? Could you point me to the specific places where you think the introduction is apparently POV? WHSL 06:14, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

I very much disagree. I see no difference. For one thing, Hurricane Katrina happened pretty recently too and there is criticism of Bush about that on his profile. If the Iraq War was happening right now, criticism of him about that would be warranted as well. There were protests about that and it was clearly controversial just as there are clearly controversial issues surrounding Obama right now as well. Controversy can be assessed at any time. If numerous news outlets are reporting on it or there are mass protests going on, then it makes sense to mention this in passing.

As for examples of the positive details, it is more what it does mention in contrast to what it does not. It mentions he was president of the Harvard Law Review, but does not mention he published only one article while there.] It mentions he won the Nobel Peace Prize but none of the controversy that surrounded this, and led to criticism of the committee responsible for awarding the prize. It skims over all his accomplishments while never mentioning anything involving controversy or criticism. If one did not know better, you would think he had no controversy at all surrounding him who makes no waves and not the polarizing figure his presidency is showing him to be. It could mention his excessively liberal voting record or the protests against his lack of a birth certificate. Or that the stimulus and health care bills he made primary talking points are facing skepticism by the American people and delays in Congress, and he has taken criticism from his own party for backing off of his earlier promises on withdrawing troops and continuing the Guantanamo military commissions. Maybe his record drop off in public support, which set a record low for any president at that point in their presidency]. Again though, from Wikipeda, you would never even consider it from reading the intro. As far as the intro makes it look, everything is just peachy. Palin has faced less controversy and her profile makes it a point to mention ethics complaints. All I am saying is it is not an accurate portrayal of how he appears to the American people. Just something to show that controversy would be accurate, but there is nothing. --Jzyehoshua (talk) 07:00, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Using Hurricane Katrina and George Bush as an comparative example of controversy is not very good. Hurricane Katrina occurred five years ago, and killed a lot of people, and caused millions of dollars worth of damage. Barack Obama winning the Nobel Prize occurred very recently, and certainly hasn't killed anyone. How can you compare them?

Your examples still do not point to me how the article specifically portrays Obama in a positive light. I have no idea how one can say this article is "peachy". The article only talks about what Obama has or has not done, and what he believes or does not believe in. A person reading this article should have no higher or lower opinion of Obama after finishing it. Nowhere does it say that he was immensely popular etc. In turn:

• Only one article as president of Harvard Law Review - how is this notable at all?
• Nobel Peace Prize - controversy is mentioned, last section of article.
• Controversies - one about Nobel Peace Prize is mentioned, rest are irrelevant to his overall biography and belong to the presidency article.
• Polarising figure - source?
• Excessively liberal voting record - "Excessive" is a POV term. Obama has a strong history though of being considered a liberal; this is mentioned.
• Basically can't prove he is born in US - fringe theory at best.
• Stimulus health bills - Don't judge how history will treat this while it is still happening.
• Public support - Drop in popularity is mentioned.
• Palin has less controversy - Once again, you cannot quantify controversy like this. Palin was a Vice Presidential candidate; Obama is the current President.
• Not "accurate portrayal of how he appears to the American people" - Misplaced Pages is worldwide, and suggesting that we all put articles from the American perspective can be quite offensive.

Controversy is not easy to measure, and certainly cannot be assessed "at any time". The reason is that people will generally think and talk about the latest and greatest ones. Therefore, it is difficult - and not a good idea to attempt - to measure the effect of a particular controversy on history just months after it has happened. Just having multiple reputable news outlets reporting on it is nowhere near enough - they release news every day, covering new and old controversies. Just having protests is not enough either - there are protests all the time. One must wait for the weight of history to truly judge whether a controversy really had historical effect. There are controversies every day, but only a few survive in memories and become truly important. WHSL 13:28, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Hmmm... as a side note, would you then say you have no problem at all with my other additions, since all of them have proved controversial over the years concerning Obama and are by no means recent? Furthermore, shouldn't Misplaced Pages report recent events as well as old ones? If there is a recent scandal, I have seen numerous Misplaced Pages articles mention this, or other controversies relating to a person or business. It would make no sense to do otherwise. Also, is there any Misplaced Pages policy stating that controversial events must pass a certain time limit before they can be addressed in an article? --Jzyehoshua (talk) 16:05, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

One thing that concerns me though is that there seems a lot of confusion by users on this topic about what the WP:NPOV rules actually say. Here is a reposting of them:

"Neutral point of view

The neutral point of view is a means of dealing with conflicting perspectives on a topic as evidenced by reliable sources. It requires that all majority- and significant-minority views be presented fairly, in a disinterested tone, and in rough proportion to their prevalence within the source material. Therefore, material should not be removed solely on the grounds that it is "POV", although it may be shortened or moved if it gives undue weight to a minor point of view, as explained below.

The neutral point of view neither sympathizes with nor disparages its subject, nor does it endorse or oppose specific viewpoints. It is not a lack of viewpoint, but is rather a specific, editorially neutral, point of view. An article should clearly describe, represent, and characterize all the disputes within a topic, but should not endorse any particular point of view. It should explain who believes what, and why, and which points of view are most common. It may contain critical evaluations of particular viewpoints based on reliable sources, but even text explaining sourced criticisms of a particular view must avoid taking sides.

Bias

Neutrality requires views to be represented without bias. All editors and all sources have biases (in other words, all editors and all sources have a point of view)—what matters is how we combine them to create a neutral article. Unbiased writing is the fair, analytical description of all relevant sides of a debate, including the mutual perspectives and the published evidence. Editorial bias toward one particular point of view should be removed or repaired."

As stated there, it is expected that editors will have points of view. Everybody does. It just requires that the subject matter be written from a neutral standpoint and avoid taking sides. It is not avoiding contentious material, but rather presenting all views so long as they can be sourced and stated neutrally, with this stating then done in proportion to the relevance. Furthermore, it is perfectly alright to provide 'critical evaluations' if based on reliable sources, so long as it's done simply stating the views, rather than providing opinions. For this reason when writing my proposed edits I sought to avoid using adjectives and merely to use a matter of fact tone of voice, merely stating the facts rather than trying to provide opinions or even to frame it in any way. Furthermore, I sought to provide them as concisely and minimally as possible, using as few words as possible, and to not make them more prevalent than necessary, since this is after all an Obama page, not an Obama criticisms page. Therefore, it's meant simply to provide relevant information, not go into depth about the criticism (which I was confused about before since pages did allow controversies sections in the past). At any rate, I'm adjusting to the style requirements and agree with them from what I can see. If anyone has any more to add about how I should approach this let me know. --Jzyehoshua (talk) 16:39, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

As for the WP:BLP rules someone earlier brought up, one of the sections states:

"Well-known public figures

In the case of significant public figures, there will be a multitude of reliable, third-party published sources to take material from, and Misplaced Pages biographies should simply document what these sources say. If an allegation or incident is notable, relevant, and well-documented by reliable published sources, it belongs in the article—even if it's negative and the subject dislikes all mention of it. If it is not documented by reliable third-party sources, leave it out."

This is pretty specific. It is not a matter of whether it is negative. It is not a matter of whether there is a POV attached to the person writing it (though they must write neutrally). If the incident is 'notable, relevant, and well-documented by reliable published sources, it belongs in the article-even if it's negative' - those are Misplaced Pages's exact words on the subject.

At the top of the page, in the meantime, it states, "We must get the article right. Be very firm about the use of high quality references. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced—whether the material is negative, positive, or just questionable—should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion."

Therefore, this is not a question of whether my material is negative (though it must be presented with facts only, not opinions, unless stating opinions of a major source from a publication), but of whether the sources are there to back it up. Are my sources used above reliable enough and thorough enough to completely back up everything I said? Was what they were backing up notable and relevant?

These are the questions I was expecting to end up confronting primarily when I made this section. All this talk about whether or not my POV is negative and what I want to include is negative has absolutely no bearing according to Misplaced Pages rules. All that matters is that it be notable, well-sourced, neutrally stated, and relevant in regards to its position on the page. And when it comes to that, I am more than happy to discuss with anybody whether my proposed edits measure up, and if not, what can be done so that Misplaced Pages rules are met.

--Jzyehoshua (talk) 17:34, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

If we covered everything, we'd have a very long article. We need to cover the most important things here, and neutrally, so we don't have time for Republican party-line smears such as the infanticide smear, or even the Nobel Peace Prize "controversy". Funnily enough, Bill O'Reilly put it best regarding the prize: whether it's deserved or not, it's a good thing, so people shouldn't complain about it. Sceptre 18:39, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Actually, infanticide is not a Republican smear. The ones pushing it originally were the pro-life crowd, like Alan Keyes, Jill Stanek, and the National Right to Life Committee. I am a pro-life Democrat myself who votes 3rd party in all presidential elections. And Keyes is now part of the Constitution Party. It took the GOP a long time to finally pick up on the infanticide stuff (McCain didn't try mentioning it until the election's last few weeks) and only after people like me sent them numerous complaints telling them to knock off the dumb smears that are easily debunked and stick to factually-based criticisms like Obama's history on late-term abortion. It was not the GOP pushing it. It was a matter of us pro-life people harassing the GOP about using sourced and valid criticisms like it instead of their cherry-picking smear campaigns about ridiculous stuff or stuff difficult to prove. My main reason for wanting the Nobel Peace Prize controversy comment included is that it's disingenuous at best to put in an introduction section merely that someone won an award when over half the world not only doesn't understand why you won it, but actively thinks you shouldn't have won it.

Look, why is the Nobel Peace Prize even being mentioned in the introduction? Because it is viewed as an 'accomplishment'. But when there are major news organizations criticizing it, world leaders ridiculing the process, and even his closest supporters are hard-pressed to explain any reason he could have won it - then maybe that should be mentioned, so it doesn't unfairly portray as an accomplishment something that is very controversial, without at least mentioning the controversy. Would you support a proposed edit even of "Obama is the 2009 Nobel Peace Prize laureate (an award accompanied by controversy)." with the link simply going to the bottom section of the page detailing the controversy? For using 5 words simply to avoid framing as an accomplishment something very controversial, I don't understand how anyone could objectively disagree with this. --Jzyehoshua (talk) 05:01, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

(edit conflict - this addresses Jzyehoshua) Those are all good points, and I'll try to address them in a few hours when I have a chance. The answers to why certain things do belong in the main Obama article, don't belong, or are the subject of reasonable editor discretion, are all in the policy / guideline sections you cite, but you have to be careful interpreting them. The main issue, in short, comes down to whether a particular item is adequately sourced and is faithful to those sources (whether it is a fact to state, an opinion to report, or a disputed claim of fact) noteworthy, pertinent / relevant, and, having passed that filter, where to put it. Deciding which article(s), if any, should mention a given thing is a matter of assessing how notable, relevant, and weighty (a cluster of related ways of saying the same thing that I prefer to call "noteworthy", meaning worth noting) it is with respect to the particular article in question. For example, the fact that quiche consumption dropped for many years in America after publication of the book, Real Men Don't Eat Quiche, if properly sourced, probably belongs in the article about that book. It may or may not belong in the article on quiche, depending on whether it is a truly noteworthy event in the history of that food. That can be approached a number of ways. Do many of the sources on quiche mention it? Did it have a major impact? Does it help the reader gain a better comprehensive knowledge of the subject? Is it an established fact or speculation? I don't think assessing whether that represents a pro- or anti-quiche bias is terribly helpful here. The goal is not for the article as a whole to be properly balanced with both positive and negative facts about quiche. It's to promote an understanding of the subject, ideally free of biases on either side, not balanced biasses. And at the extreme, the fact doesn't belong in the main article about cheese, or publishing, or men, eating, or reality. Sceptre has a point, there is only so much information that can go in one article, which is why we have 200+ and counting articles that are about Obama (see the template). This one, of course, is the most read by an order of magnitude so the key facts go here. Anyway, like I said I'll try to give it a more full answer in a while. Thanks for being patient. Cheers. - Wikidemon (talk) 18:56, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

I agree. That is why I did not try to put any mention of those negative elements about Obama in the introduction. However, I do think them relevant to the sections they are suggested in. The 2004 senate campaign was the big step up for Barack Obama, and a few sentences mentioning the general election and topics in it hardly seems out of line. I think as it is, the general election is far too little mentioned in the current section (probably giving undue weight to other factors), which focuses more on the primary, endorsements, entering the election, and his keynote address. Let me put it in perspective here:

-There are 11 sentences and 286 words in the section.

-The first 2 sentences of 76 words discuss Obama's choosing to enter the race.

-The 3rd sentence of 33 words discusses endorsements of Obama in the primary.

-The 4th sentence of 31 words discusses how Obama won the primary in a landslide.

-The 5th sentence of 26 words discusses Obama's new label as a 'rising star' because of his primary win.

-The 6th sentence of 19 words discusses Obama's keynote address at the DNC.

-The 7th sentence of 33 words discusses how many viewers saw it and how the address elevated his status in the Democrat party.

-The 8th sentence of 19 words discusses how Obama's opponent for the general election withdrew from the race.

-The 9th and 10th sentences of 28 words discuss how Alan Keyes accepted the Republican nomination and established residency in the state.

-The 11th sentence of 26 words discusses Obama's win and how wide a margin it was won by.

Now, you realize that in a section supposedly about the 2004 U.S. Senate Campaign, not 1 of the 11 sentences or even 1 of the 286 words used here ACTUALLY MENTIONS THE CAMPAIGN FOR THE GENERAL ELECTION BETWEEN KEYES AND OBAMA. NOT ONE WORD ABOUT HOW THE CAMPAIGN TRANSPIRED, KEY COMPONENTS OF THE CAMPAIGN, WHAT WENT ON BETWEEN BOTH SIDES, WHAT THE CIRCUMSTANCES OF THE CAMPAIGN WERE - A.B.S.O.L.U.T.E.L.Y. N.O.T.H.I.N.G..

This is why I am surprised that there is so much opposition to actually discussing major parts of the general election campaign. As it is, there is zero mention of it in a section where this should be front and center, you would think. Instead, undue weight is given to discussing everything that sounds good about Obama. --Jzyehoshua (talk) 05:01, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

(unindent) Let's stick to the edits to keep things moving... My take on the content proposals:

• 1. Mention controversy surrounding Nobel prize in lede. Although this is an arguable point and within the reasonable bounds of editor discretion, I don't support this, for several reasons:
  • (a) It doesn't belong in the lede - the lede hits all the major points but doesn't try to add context like opinions or controversies. It's already long enough.
  • (b) Criticism is not a salient point about Nobel Peace Prizes. Most or all are controversial, and they are nearly always awarded for political reasons rather than based on merit. As a general point about the prize, that is worth covering in articles about the prize and about this one in particular, but if we are to say things about Obama's winning the prize this is pretty far down the list. The Nobel Committee is an independent body that is not directly affected by public approval - it is not like a politician who needs to be elected, or a film that needs to convince people to watch it. It's kind of like saying that a sports official's ruling is criticized, the design of an airplane, or the name of a private boat. It's not completely unremarkable, just not the most important thing about it.
  • (c) It seems that nearly everyone agrees that Obama has not achieved or acted (yet?) in a way that would deserve the prize, including Obama himself. He, his supporters and detractors, the press, and probably the committee itself, all acknowledge that the prize was given in response to his promises to change American policy in a way welcomed by much of the international community, partly as a way of encouraging him to follow through on it. Perhaps that's not precisely it, but I don't think there's a whole lot of disagreement on the particular politics the Committee was playing, so calling it criticism is unduly opinionated. The only major differences of opinion are whether this is truly a huge honor for Obama under the circumstances, and whether the committee is going too far out on a limb (but see above, opinions of others don't directly affect the committee or the prize recipient).
  • (d) Bias. To mention only that some criticize the award, without mentioning that a large number also praise the award, each sometimes from unexpected sources, is to present only one side of the story. As discussed elsewhere, for encyclopedic reasons criticism and praise are best used judiciously rather than filtering all events in politics through the lens of how much positive and negative political gaming goes on surrounding them.
  • (e) Should be, and is, covered elsewhere. The criticism, support, general consensus, and opinions of Obama and the committee are all covered by at least four consecutive sentences in the body of the article, in the section on the prize. We're not ignoring the issue, but I don't think every four-sentence section justifies a phrase in the lede.
• 2. Mention lawsuit that disqualified opponents in Illinois senate. This is a toss-up for me. I see nothing wrong with mentioning this if we do it in a neutral way. "Through the use of lawyers" is a loaded, derogatory slant on something that is not negative at all, and mentioning that it was after the filing deadline is pure insinuation. Obama sued, and won, which means his position was legally correct. Of course he sued after the filing deadline - that's when challenges to petitions are heard, after the petitions are turned in. What he sued about were fraudulent nominating petitions, which had become the norm in the corrupt, insular world of Chicago politics - he was the only candidate that was legitimately nominate. These days nearly all close elections are litigated. If that fact bothers some people and draws some grandstanding by opponents, America is always free to change its political process. I'm not sure people would like the results, but that's a fact about elections, not about each politician who undertakes a campaign. Would we say that Al Franken won "through the use of lawyers", or George W. Bush? Well, yes, perhaps, but we would not put it that way. Achieving an outcome through litigation was the defining moment in each of these elections. I think a more neutral way to say it would be that Obama won the election after successfully challenging the legitimacy of each of his opponents' nominations in court. That's the facts. Saying it without commentary or innuendo lets the reader decide what to make of them.
• 3. Mention that legislation described, and others, were given to Obama by his mentor Emil Jones. Too much relatively minor detail without presenting a complete picture, in my opinion. If we're going to get into the sausage factory of how different pieces of legislation came about we would have to be more comprehensive. It's also a bit of a random mash-up. There are two issues here, Obama's legislative record and his mentorship by Emil Jones. The latter issue deserves its own mention, probably a sorely lacking paragraph about Obama's rise to power and boost from (and ultimately, rising past) the old power structure in Chicago. It's abundantly clear that Jones was a mentor to Obama, and was often described in those terms - do a google search for something like "Emil Jones" / "Barack Obama" / mentor. A couple good sources here:
  • Christopher Wills (2008-03-31). "Obama's 'godfather' an old-school Chicago politician". Associated Press.
  • Ryan Lizza (2008-07-21). "Making It:How Chicago shaped Obama". New Yorker.

The latter source, a booklet-length narrative in the New Yorker on Obama's early political career, is a great yardstick to hold up to our article in terms of the weight of coverage of various items from Obama's early career. It's twice as long as this article and covers about 1/4 of the biographical territory of Obama's pre-election life, so we could say it's scale is at least eight times bigger than this one. I did an exhaustive analysis of the people and subjects that got covered, at Talk:Barack Obama/weight - the article devotes 27.5 sentences to Jones, describing the relationship in considerable detail, including the "alliance" with Obama by which Jones "shepherded" through Obama's legislation. The article also mentions a cadre of other, often feuding, politicians who sponsored and groomed the young Obama: Toni Preckwinkle (a big omission in the article), Alice Palmer (politician) (ditto), Bobby Rush (an opponent and then reluctant supporter), David Axelrod (we already mention him), and Abner J. Mikva. I think we could build a paragraph or two about all this, and it is very important as a biographical item. Some of these other articles adequately mention the relationship with Obama; others (such as the Emil Jones article, could be filled out in this regard. The New Yorker article also extensively mentions a protege, Will Burns, but mostly as a source rather than the relationship.

• 4. Expanded discussion of Keyes. Also within reasonable bounds of editor discretion, but I don't think this much detail is warranted. It distracts from the focus on Obama himself, and that's the subject of this article. Keyes fell completely flat in the election, and is today a very fringe-y figure, so that is all a ditraction. Plus, the mechanics of the various election victories is better detailed in the sub-articles about each election in my opinion.

Hope that helps. As an editorial aside here, can we all please get past any negative comments about each other, and find some other forum if there is any serious concern? There's some good stuff in these proposals, even if you disagree with 90% or even 100% of it. And it's offered seriously and in good faith, even if the editor proposing it is (or is not) opinionated on the subject. Having an opinion is not a crime and it should not hurt our chances of working together, as long as the content itself that results is neutral. That's how it always is in every mature article, even the completely uncontroversial ones... 90% of the content proposals are ultimately rejected and the article gets improved a bit at a time. If we take the best 10% here, or more or less, there are some things to improve the article. - Wikidemon (talk) 13:57, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

Alright, I appreciate the time you took to respond. I made sure to thoroughly think through all my replies:

1.

• (a) It is noticeable that the only 2 sentences in the entire Barack Obama article which could even be considered critical of him are the final 2 on the page, which mention the controversy and criticism surrounding the award. Indeed, the entire Barack Obama page is only positive in tone. It goes out of the way, for example, to mention events that increased his approval, but not ones that decreased it. It also states when he had favorable approval ratings, but not when unfavorable. Therefore, this makes it particularly noteworthy that when the award is mentioned, it mentions only the positive, and not the widespread criticism, which is relegated to the very end of the page.
• (b) I can see what you are saying. However, when controversy is as prominent as that surrounding the award, I would think mention of the award in the introduction section should at least mention this controversy, if only as a by-the-by. After all, one of the elements in determining placement of material is prominence, and if the award was prominent, it should be noted that equally so was the criticism and controversy.
• (c) I was reacting not so much to the lack of mention that Obama did not yet merit the award, but the active criticism of it. For example, Obama when accepting the award acknowledged "the considerable controversy" surrounding the award, while the Nobel Prize Committee chairman, Thorbjorn Jagland, felt the criticism deeply enough to provide a lengthy live interview defending the decision.] Some of his critics included:

-Polish President, Les Walesa, who won the award in 1983 and said, "So soon? Too early. He has no contribution so far... he is still at an early stage."]

-Norwegian Progress Party leader Siv Jensen, of the main opposition party in the country the Nobel was given in, said, "It is just too soon... It is wrong to give him the peace prize for his ambition. You should receive it for results."]

• (d) I would have no problem with a comment about any prominent or noteworthy praise for the award. However, what praise there was seemed very limited at the time in comparison the criticism. Even those that did praise it had little they could say but suggesting it was because he created a 'climate' globally (Jagland's term) or else was simply being credited for having made speeches and talks that were inspiring. Again, if you can find praise of equal prominence and relevance I would expect it to be included as well, but honestly expect that you will have a very tough time finding it.
• (e) That was my point about the award itself. Does it justify mention in the introduction? If so, why? If because of prominence, how does the controversy surrounding the award compare in terms of prominence to the award itself? Since one of the WP rules involves prominence and noteworthiness, I think it noteworthy that the controversy outweighed the award itself.

2. Hmm... multiple articles cited mentioned that this was a case of him hiring a troop of lawyers, including at least one who was a fellow classmate from law school, when challenging the signatures. Is there an alternative way you think this could be mentioned? The lawyers were the method for the challenging, and given the number hired, which sounds as though it must have been at least 4, it seems noteworthy enough to merit mention. My question is, if the fact is noteworthy the lawyers were a key part of it, do you have an alternate suggestion for how I should word that? As for it being after the filing deadline, we are told that in one of the articles. It seems his most prominent opponent may have had a delay, and also requested Obama drop out, as she'd formerly given him a nod of approval, stating he would made an adequate successor. She was surprised when he not only continued running against her, but ended up suing to knock off her for whatever reason "hastily gathered signatures" as I believe one article put it. As for the lawsuit, it is an unusual aspect that is noteworthy and relevant to that part of Obama's history, and therefore merits mention. Whether it was right or not is questionable. Earmarks are legal too, and many have been falsely convicted by our justice system, so the legality of it and the decision by the courts does not negate the potential controversy. I know I use extreme examples to prove my points, but as an example seeking to portray the view of this from the other side, but Palin won out in her ethics controversies, as did John McCain (Keating Five I believe it was called), yet this does not mean their events don't get mentioned on their profiles (which they do). For these reasons, denying the mention of this history would be disparate treatment compared to conservative politicians. At any rate, I'd be interested in hearing your recommended edits in comparison to mine so that they can be contrasted and if I am leaving anything out or wording anything improperly it will show up. A side by side comparison would allow strong points from both sides to be combined.

3. Yes, actually I ended up mentioning a Google search of Jones Obama mentor earlier, believe it or not. You're right, there is a lot of evidence supporting that fact. I only provided my sources after the fact, since someone questioned it. (Discussion should be on this page somewhere.) I think you have a good idea though, mentioning more about his other mentors and political associations would be a good addition to the article. With Jones, I think it just particularly noteworthy and controversial though since Jones was responsible for much of the legislation he now points too as evidence of his legislative capability.

4. As I stated before, Keyes was entering an election with less than 3 months left. He did not even have much knowledge of the state, or little time to do much of anything. Indeed, his bombastic rhetoric may be viewed as a desperate attempt to stop a politician he strongly despised by grabbing headlines and controversy as quickly as possible. With so little time and so little campaign structure (he relied heavily on grassroots organizing and a largely unregulated free speech forum called 'RenewAmerica' which still exists today) he could not afford a slower pace. Yes, he lost by an unprecedented margin, but I am not sure any major party candidate has ever attempted a run after entering a race so late, particularly in a foreign state. As composing the key part of the general election, and in a section about said election, it seems odd that he is mentioned in only 2 of the 11 sentences. My edits would add 1 more sentence and 55 more words, but I don't think this is overdoing it, considering they'd provide the only current insight into the general election, the key part of the election, in the section which is supposed to be about that election.

Also, good job on the Obama/weight page. I was impressed.

Also, my apologies for the late reply. You gave the most serious feedback about the edits, and I wanted to make sure I didn't just make a hasty reply.

--Jzyehoshua (talk) 19:35, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I wish there were some way to automate that kind of weight analysis, say by taking the 10-20 most prominent sources on a subject and seeing how they treat different issues...

Regarding 1(a), last time I checked there were 6 or 8 items on the page that could be considered negative, but counting pros and cons is not very fruitful. There's no optimum balance, no standard way to count, and the act of inserting things just to add more negativity is antithetical to a lot of content policies. Saying that a person won an award, or a job title, or an election, would be balanced by... what? Mentioning an award they didn't win? Certainly not an act of criticism over the award, that would balance a statement that they were praised over the award. If you look at most articles (e.g. brussels sprouts, or more pertinent, well written biographies of successful people) it's certainly not 50/50. They lay out the objective facts of the career, most of which (for most people) are accomplishments, meaning they are positive if you want to look at it that way. You have to take things one at a time. On 1(b) I would say that criticism of the award, and of Obama's for winning it, is no more great than praise of the award, and Obama for winning it. Here we get into the same issue of deciding what is postivie versis negative. The praise, as I see it, does not counter the facts of criticism, that Obama had no achievements to merit the award and that America is even under Obama not the most peaceful country on earth, it just says that the Nobel Committee was intentionally rewarding and encouraging his statements of aspiration. If you went down the path of measuring public reception you would have to mention both, and as I said that is not the most pertinent thing about Nobel Peace Prizes. I do think that after the coverage reaches a certain threshold that is one of the things to mention, but I'm not sure that our 3-4 sentences hits that point. If other editors thought so I wouldn't oppose it. The article about the award should and presumably does address this more fully.

Regarding #2, Obama's opponents all failed to gather the necessary legitimate signatures, and got certified anyway. Obama mounted a successful challenge. The neutral way to say it (subject to some wording improvement) is that Obama wone the election by default after a successful legal challenge to the adequacy of each of his opponents' nomination etitions, none of which were found to have enough legitimate signatures. One of those opponents was a political patron, who had asked Obama to wait until the next election, when she would suport him. Is that state election tactic important enough to Obama's life story to mention here? I think yes because it's a significant life event.

We agree on #3... although I'll bet Jones is not the only person in Chicago's political machine who would be controversial.

I guess #4 is a judgment call, but the more neutral way to put it is to summarize more objectively that Jones had made Obama's positions on abortion his major campaign issue. When politicans square off on the subject of abortion they often go for emotionally-charged symbols (live-born fetuses, welfare mothers, victims of rape and incest, etc.) to attack each other, when those aren't the real issue. It gets to that in-world thing I mention, in case anyone read my Bunnytown digression.

Not sure where to go from here. I think everyone is busy talking on their own separate part of this page, with reactions ranging from agreement to alarm. Maybe let things simmer down a bit, then start (yet) another section with a more focused proposal, perhaps one at a time. I'd be willing to offer a first proposal on one of these, if you think that might help get it be better received. I think the coming of age in Chicago politics is the most pressing omission, but that one would also take the longest time to research, write, and smooth out. - Wikidemon (talk) 20:37, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

1. Well, with the award, I think it is not merely that it was prominent in relation to the award, but as a controversy during Obama's career (though arguably even more prominent were the 'infanticide' charge which was probably the primary controversy surrounding him, and haunted him much of his career).

I found this in the Misplaced Pages rules for the Misplaced Pages:Lead section guidelines:

"The lead section, lead (sometimes lede), or introduction of a Misplaced Pages article is the section before the table of contents and first heading. The lead serves both as an introduction to the article and as a summary of the important aspects of the subject of the article.

The lead should be able to stand alone as a concise overview of the article. It should define the topic, establish context, explain why the subject is interesting or notable, and summarize the most important points—including any notable controversies. The emphasis given to material in the lead should roughly reflect its importance to the topic, according to reliable, published sources, and the notability of the article's subject should usually be established in the first sentence.

While consideration should be given to creating interest in reading more of the article, the lead nonetheless should not "tease" the reader by hinting at—but not explaining—important facts that will appear later in the article. The lead should contain no more than four paragraphs, should be carefully sourced as appropriate, and should be written in a clear, accessible style to invite a reading of the full article."

This is what I am concerned the Obama article does not do. The introduction according to WP guidelines should be summarizing all 'notable controversies' and not neglecting important facts that will appear later in the article (in the case of the Nobel Prize controversy, the page's last 2 sentences). Indeed, I think it notable that all of this argumentation has to be done to get even the most major of controversies onto the page, when according to WP guidelines, they should be in the introduction section.

On the other hand, if you disagree the Nobel prize was one of Obama's great controversies, then there is another issue - because then we must identify what were the greatest controversies, and ensure they are mentioned in the introduction.

2. Also, I have no problem whatsoever with your proposed alternative for #2, "Obama won the election by default after a successful legal challenge to the adequacy of each of his opponents' nomination petitions, none of which were found to have enough legitimate signatures. One of those opponents was a political patron, who had asked Obama to wait until the next election, when she would suport him." The only thing I would add is that in the sentence it should also be noted Palmer was the patron, but otherwise I think it a well-written alternative that summarizes the subject. It may also be necessary according to the aforementioned guidelines to mention the controversy element of this as well if it is determined this was a 'notable controversy' for Obama, but either way, I am fine with the alternative you proposed, and think it would work very well.

4. And finally, I agree with your statement that the more neutral way to put it is to summarize more objectively that Keyes had made Obama's positions on abortion his major campaign issue. This is what I was going for, and thought I had achieved. It was why I stated it only as "and with Keyes running a negative campaign criticizing Obama on the issue of late-term abortions70". I even tried to avoid framing it by using the words 'negative campaign' to avoid positive bias of Keyes, and so those looking into the subject would not be swayed by that sentence. Indeed, given its prominent status as the key controversy surrounding Obama, perhaps it should have more mention in the page according to the WP guidelines. At any rate though, I was simply trying to mention Keyes had made it his key campaign issue, and if that could be reworded as such would have no issue with it.

Finally, thanks for the offer to reword some of these statements. Much of what I am hearing I agree with, and was even trying to achieve the effect (and thought I had) when writing the edits. I see no noticeable difference between the versions and would welcome the alternative versions you suggested. --Jzyehoshua (talk) 13:31, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Alright, I just made the proposed edit #2, (I will avoid edit #1 for now, and possibly altogether, due to controversy) but as you will see tried to use the alternative version you recommended. The second sentence was changed a bit though to mention the opponent was Alice Palmer, and to mention some of the details mentioned on the Alice Palmer page about the event which would otherwise seem unclear.

"Obama won the election by default after a successful legal challenge to the adequacy of each of his four opponents' nomination petitions, none of which were found to have enough legitimate signatures. One of those opponents, incumbent Alice Palmer, had earlier named Obama her successor, but following a failed Congressional bid, her campaign asked Obama to step down, and when he refused, had to gather signatures with two days left before the filing deadline."

Also, I incorporated some of the sourcing from the Alice Palmer page which already mentioned these events, and had some very good sourcing. --Jzyehoshua (talk) 07:08, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

I just made the proposed edit #3.

"This legislation was originally worked on by Senator Rickey Hendon, and was among numerous pieces of legislation given to Obama as part of a requested deal with his political mentor, Senator Emil Jones, to make him a U.S. Senator."

As you can see, it is the same as that proposed, except I added the last part about "to make him a U.S. Senator" since it's such a well-established quote. One of the articles already referenced in that section even mentioned it (In Illinois, Obama Proved Pragmatic and Shrewd) so I made it a ref name tag and re-cited it. I also mentioned in the edit summary that this information has already been mentioned and referenced on the Emil Jones page. --Jzyehoshua (talk) 08:22, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

And now the 4th edit has been made. Edit is as follows:

"Obama's expected opponent in the general election, Republican primary winner Jack Ryan, withdrew from the race in June 2004 following a widely-reported sex scandal. Two months later, and with less than three months remaining in the election, Alan Keyes accepted the Illinois Republican Party's nomination to replace Ryan.

Following a race in which Alan Keyes was heavily criticized by the press both for being a 'carpetbagger' and for evicting his daughter Maya Keyes for her homosexuality, and with Alan Keyes running a negative campaign criticizing Obama primarily on the issue of Obama's voting record on live birth abortion, Obama in the November 2004 general election received 70% of the vote to Keyes' 27%, the largest victory margin for a statewide race in Illinois history."

As before, I made tweaks simply by looking and re-evaluating, but there should be little surprises here aside from the mention of Maya Keyes. I was always skeptical of the accusations during the race of Keyes evicting Maya, but upon following up I found evidence that she does currently still state it happened. For the record, I agree with her that her father is an honest man who did it likely out of a sense of duty and concern he was supporting a sinful lifestyle - but still think he should apologize for it and publicly come clean.

Anyway, that's all irrelevant. Bottom line is, these were the three major issues during the campaign and now being covered objectively on Misplaced Pages, the article is one step closer to truly being comprehensive concerning a figure that is too often poorly understood and reported on. --Jzyehoshua (talk) 19:33, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

Huge long wall of text

If you read my post above, you'll see I addressed the Hitler issue. I see what you're saying, "is the material relevant and not just reporting on attacks that might be widely believed but with little basis in fact?" The birther conspiracies could be mentioned in the article, I think, just for the sake of the widespread protests it resulted in. This does not mean going into detail about the reasoning behind the birthers and what they believe, but simply mentioning it as a controversial part of his presidency since it achieved prominence. As for the Muslim stuff, that is more difficult to prove, since it involves circumstantial evidence. Yes, he has an Islamic name, attended an Islamic school in an Islamic country, has Islamic family members, and as an Illinois senator sponsored several Islamic bills (like the Islamic Community Day bill and Halal Food Act), but so what? None of it means he was a Muslim, and even if he was, it shouldn't matter (aside from the disturbing idea that he'd hide his religion from Americans). And either way, shouldn't belong in the article without solid sourcing, which as I've said, isn't since it involves circumstantial evidence that is thus open to interpretation.

However, with the live birth abortion issue, his primary opponent during the 2004 election which vaulted him into national prominence and set the stage for his presidential run criticized him solely on this one issue alone. He voted against the Illinois version of the most prominent pro-life bill EVER passed by Congress, the Born Alive Infants Protection Act. What is more, key witnesses of the testimony that resulted in passing that bill, Jill Stanek and Gianna Jessen, both are critics of him. Stanek has been unceasingly critical of his voting record and senate statements about why newborn infants that survive late-term abortions should be treated as fetuses and not human beings worthy of rights, while Jessen participated in the ad campaign against him in recent years. He has been criticized on the issue by writers across many major accredited news bodies, both on TV and in newspapers, as well as by fact-checking web sources like FactCheck.

Again, I provided from the beginning of this conversation the verbatim statements by Barack Obama on the senate floor that generated this controversy. It is easy to debate why he stated that in cases where children can be born alive after abortions should be left to die unattended. The reasoning is right there and I provided the government links, the senate transcripts, along with page references, for anyone who wants to read the conversations in full. I provided some major news sources covering the issue. This is not something without solid basis in fact. I am more than happy to discuss what Obama's statements were, word for word, on the matter, and whether the criticisms of him are thus justified.

As for Emil Jones being Obama's political mentor, yes, that is a well-sourced fact. Case in point:

Times Online]  :::"Obama has often described Jones as a key political mentor whose patronage was crucial to his early success in a state long dominated by near-feudal party political machines. Jones, 71, describes himself as Obama’s “godfather” and once said: “He feels like a son to me.”"

Chicago Tribune]:

"Democratic presidential candidate Sen. Barack Obama has taken the unusual step of weighing in on a high-profile ethics bill in his home state, legislation that had been held up by his political mentor, Illinois Sen. Emil Jones."]

"An African-American woman who is an Illinois delegate for Sen. Hillary Clinton maintained today that Senate President Emil Jones, a mentor of Sen. Barack Obama, called her an "Uncle Tom" at the Illinois hotel for the Democratic National Convention."]

"An alleged slur delivered by a mentor of Barack Obama to a supporter of one-time Democratic rival Hillary Clinton has stirred up the volatile issues of race and gender to an already fracture filled Illinois Democratic Party."]

Chicago Sun-Times:]

"Jones -- Barack Obama's political mentor -- denied using the racially loaded slur against Chicago political consultant Delmarie Cobb, but two aldermen who said they witnessed the Saturday night exchange back up Cobb's account."

National Review Online:]

"Jones would know. He is Barack Obama’s political mentor, and he can now give himself a $578,000 gift."

Daily Herald:]

"Senate President Emil Jones Jr., Barack Obama's political mentor, denied today calling a Hillary Clinton delegate an 'Uncle Tom.'"

Those are all just first page Google search results too.] I can find more easily, but think I proved my point. There is plenty of sourcing for calling Jones Obama's political mentor, as it was a key phrase used by Chicago newspapers at the time.

P.S.I should have sourced that as far as Jones being a political mentor though, even though I believe it was mentioned in the articles sourced there anyway. I will edit the proposed edits to include some very clear references to Jones being Obama's mentor. Good point about that, I will make the changes.

--Jzyehoshua (talk) 07:16, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

State legislator: 1997–2004 edits

Obama won the election by default after a successful legal challenge to the adequacy of each of his four opponents' nomination petitions, none of which were found to have enough legitimate signatures. One of those opponents, incumbent Alice Palmer, had earlier named Obama her successor, but following a failed Congressional bid, her campaign asked Obama to step down, and when he refused, had to gather signatures with two days left before the filing deadline.

• the First state Senate election, 1996 section of the Illinois Senate career of Barack Obama article
• the First state Senate election, 1996 section of the Illinois Senate elections of Barack Obama article

and is about a topic that is too detailed for this WP:Summary style article.

1. Palmer announced on June 27, 1995 that she would not seek re-election to the state Senate in 1996
2. Gov. Jim Edgar on September 11, 1995 set November 28, 1995 as the 2nd Congressional District special Democratic primary election—three weeks before the December 18, 1995 filing deadline for nominating petitions to earn a place on the March 1996 Democratic primary election ballot to run for re-election to the state legislature
3. Palmer introduced and endorsed Obama as her successor when Obama announced his campaign for state Senate on September 19, 1995—the first day of the thirteen-week period in which candidates could circulate nominating petitions to earn a place on the March 1996 Democratic primary election ballot
4. Obama's mother Ann died of metastatic uterine cancer at the age of 52 in Honolulu on November 7, 1995
5. Palmer repeated on November 28, 1995, after her loss in the 2nd Congressional District special Democratic primary election, that she would not seek re-election to the state Senate in 1996
6. Obama filed his nominating petitions with over 3,000 signatures on December 11, 1995—the first filing day for nominating petitions to earn a place on the March 1996 Democratic primary election ballot
7. Palmer announced on December 18, 1995—the last filing day for nominating petitions to earn a place on the March 1996 Democratic primary election ballot—that she would seek re-election to the state Senate in 1996
8. Palmer announced on January 17, 1996 that she would not seek re-election to the state Senate in 1996 because she was a couple of hundred signatures short of the 757 needed to earn a place on the ballot after almost two-thirds of the 1,580 signatures on her nominating petitions were found to be invalid

• Palmer appointed herself to the state Senate in June 1991 to fill the last nineteen months of the four-year term of 67-year-old state Sen. Richard Newhouse (D-13) following his unexpected midterm retirement. As an incumbent state Senator, Palmer defeated first-time candidate Charlie Calvin, a Cook County Circuit Court juvenile probation officer, in the March 1992 primary election for the Democratic nomination for state Senator from a redistricted 13th legislative district, and running unopposed in the November 1992 general election, was elected to a four-year term as state Senator for the redrawn 13th legislative district.
• Obama was first elected to the state Senate by defeating the Harold Washington Party and Republican Party candidates in the November 1996 general election.
• Palmer had three weeks to gather the required valid signatures on her nominating petitions to earn a place on the November 1995 2nd Congressional District special Democratic primary election ballot.
• Palmer had ten weeks before the November 1995 2nd Congressional District special Democratic primary election
  and three weeks after the November 1995 2nd Congressional District special Democratic primary election
  (as did state Rep. Monique Davis—one of Palmer's five 2nd Congressional District special Democratic primary election opponents)
  to gather the required valid signatures on her nominating petitions to earn a place on the March 1996 Democratic primary election ballot to run for re-election to the state Senate.

This legislation was originally worked on by Senator Rickey Hendon, and was among numerous pieces of legislation given to Obama as part of a requested deal with his political mentor Senator Emil Jones, to make him a U.S. Senator.

• the Later Senate career section of the Illinois Senate career of Barack Obama article
• the Democratic primary section of the United States Senate election in Illinois, 2004 article

and is about a topic that is too detailed for this WP:Summary style article.

• Inaccurate and misleading 2004 and 2008 articles by Todd Spivak in questionable sources (free alternative weekly newspapers) are inappropriate sources for 1995–1996 and 2003 events in this WP:BLP:
  • Spivak, Todd (March 25, 2004). In the black. Illinois Times
  • Spivak, Todd (February 26, 2008). Barack Obama and Me. Houston Press
• Rickey Hendon never served on the Judiciary Committee in the Illinois Senate, never introduced a bill in the Illinois Senate to monitor racial profiling by requiring police to record the race of drivers they detained, and never introduced a bill in the Illinois Senate to make Illinois the first state to mandate videotaping of homicide interrogations.
• Barack Obama served on the Judiciary Committee for all eight years he was in the Illinois Senate—for four years, he was its only African-American member (in his first two years he was joined by Bill Shaw of Dolton, Illinois in the 90th Illinois General Assembly; in his last two years he was joined by James Clayborne of downstate Belleville, Illinois in the 93rd Illinois General Assembly). Obama was the only state Senator who introduced bills in the Illinois Senate to monitor racial profiling by requiring police to record the race of drivers they detained, and to make Illinois the first state to mandate videotaping of homicide interrogations:
  • SB 1324 STATE POLICE-CULTURE DIVERSITY introduced by Barack Obama on January 12, 2000 in the 91st (1999–2000) Illinois General Assembly.
  • SB 0375 STATE POLICE-CULTURE DIVERSITY introduced by Barack Obama on February 20, 2001 in the 92nd (2001–2002) Illinois General Assembly.
  • SB 0030 STATE POLICE-CULTURE DIVERSITY introduced by Barack Obama on January 9, 2003 in the 93rd (2003–2004) Illinois General Assembly; signed into law as PA 93-0209 on July 18, 2003.
  • SB 1788 VIDEOTAPED INTERROGATIONS introduced by Barack Obama on February 5, 2002 in the 92nd (2001–2002) Illinois General Assembly.
  • SB 0015 VIDEOTAPED INTERROGATIONS introduced by Barack Obama on January 9, 2003 in the 93rd (2003–2004) Illinois General Assembly; signed into law as PA 93-0517 on August 12, 2003.
• State Sen. Rickey Hendon, state Rep. Monique Davis (who introduced racial profiling and videotaped interrogations House bills in the 91st, 92nd and 93rd Illinois General Assembly), state Sen. Barack Obama (who introduced racial profiling and videotaped interrogations Senate bills in the 91st, 92nd and 93rd Illinois General Assembly) and other state legislators and staff in the black caucus of the Illinois state legislature may have all worked on this legislation, but Obama was credited with guiding this legislation to unanimous approval in the Illinois Senate in 2003.
• Emil Jones was a mentor to Obama. Other mentors include Jerry Kellman, Mike Kruglik, Greg Galluzzo, Laurence Tribe, Newton Minow, Abner Mikva, Judd Miner, Paul Simon, Bettylu Saltzman, David Axelrod, etc.
• Emil Jones was a supporter of Obama for U.S. Senate. When Obama formally announced his candidacy for U.S. Senate—on Tuesday, January 21, 2003 at the Hotel Allegro at 171 W. Randolph Street in downtown Chicago—flanked by 40 political leaders in a small meeting room packed with supporters, newspaper reports noted the presence of U.S. Rep. Jesse Jackson, Jr., U.S. Rep. Danny Davis, state Senate President Emil Jones, Jr., state Sen. Terry Link, state Sen. Denny Jacobs, and former Chicago Bear Chris Zorich—and noted the conspicuous absence of U.S. Rep. Bobby Rush.
• Emil Jones' The Godfather bit was his longtime shtick:
  • Long, Ray (November 3, 1993). Senator Jones aims for consensus; efforts cut across racial lines. Chicago Sun-Times, p. 12:

    As the state's first black legislative leader since the mid-1970s, Jones, the Senate minority leader, has to weigh what the black caucus wants against what he believes is right for all Senate Democrats—urban, suburban and rural, black, Hispanic and white. To bolster his battles, Jones studies books on political science, ancient Chinese warfare, Shakespeare, particularly "Hamlet," and the " Godfather " series, the latter because they show the value of loyalty and organization.

  • Neal, Steve (September 20, 1995). Jones may deal his way into win. Chicago Sun-Times, p. 41:

    In the 2nd Congressional District, State Senate Minority Leader Emil Jones (D-Chicago) could win the special election by wheeling and dealing.
    Jones, 59, the first African-American leader of Senate Democrats in two decades, likes his politics behind closed doors. During the contest for Senate Democratic leader in 1992, other hopefuls got more publicity. But Jones forged coalitions, made secret deals, and got the votes.
    Democratic National Committeeman Jesse L. Jackson Jr., son of the civil rights leader, who also is running for the Reynolds seat, has referred to Jones as "the godfather." Jones took it as a compliment.
    If Jackson's name recognition is his biggest asset, Jones has political savvy in his favor. Jones thrives on the politics of intrigue. By running for Congress, Jones is in a strong position to boost the political fortunes of allies. As a member of the State Democratic Central Committee, Jones also is in a position to help shape the 1998 statewide Democratic ticket. If he moves up to the U.S. House, Jones is expected to push for the promotion of South Side legislative allies.

  • Wig, Jennifer, Adrian, Matt (February 1, 2004). One on one with Emil Jones: the Senate president talks about life in the 'great university'. The Southern Illinoisan, p. E1:

    Jones says he's a fan of classic movies, naming "The Godfather," "Casablanca" and "Forrest Gump."

  • Miller, Rich (June 8, 2007). Emil's 'whacks' not a hit with legislators; Senate president should remember 'Godfather' wasn't success forever. Chicago Sun-Times, p. 41:

    Senate President Emil Jones often recommends that Statehouse newbies watch "The Godfather, Part 1" to get an idea of how Springfield operates. It's a good idea, and I told my intern this year that he needed to watch the flick as well. Loyalty, honor, respect and ruthlessness are the lessons we're supposed to learn from the classic film, which follows mafia chieftain Don Corleone and his sons as they deal with "family business," including killing off all their enemies. Jones often quotes lines from the movie, and his management style is regularly compared to the loyalty-obsessed brutality of the Corleone "family." But his schtick has gotten way out of hand this year.

  • Sneed, Michael (September 11, 2007). No-refuse call. Chicago Sun-Times, p. 5:

    RING RING . . .
    Sneed is told Senate President Emil Jones ' cell phone rings to the tune of the "Godfather" theme song. Whoaaaa!

Newross (talk) 03:22, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

The section on Obama's career as a professor of law, especially con law, seems woefully abridged to me. Has he said anything about which legal philosophies he adheres to as per http://en.wikipedia.org/Jurisprudence ? For instance,

Natural law is the idea that there are rational objective limits to the power of legislative rulers. The foundations of law are accessible through human reason and it is from these laws of nature that human created laws gain whatever force they have.

Legal Positivism, by contrast to natural law, holds that there is no necessary connection between law and morality and that the force of law comes from some basic social facts although positivists differ on what those facts are.

Legal Realism is a third theory of jurisprudence which argues that the real world practice of law is what determines what law is; ie the law has the force that it does because of what legislators, judges, and executives do with it.

Critical Legal Studies is a younger theory of jurisprudence that has developed since the 1970s which is primarily a negative thesis that the law is largely contradictory and can be best analyzed as an expression of the policy goals of the dominant social group.

This might not be much of an issue for research or discussion if the president were just some lawyer, but he was a professor of constitutional law, and now he's the chief executive of the US, so his legal philosophies are pretty important. Do we have any information on his leanings? Ikilled007 (talk) 15:48, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

The degree to which anything on this topic could be included is directly related to the number and quality of reliable sources that discuss it. It may be interesting, but if nobody has already published thoughts on the matter, it's not something we can research and include.  Frank  |  talk  15:55, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Also, it is worth remembering that this is a biography that covers Obama's entire life, so it cannot explore the level of detail being looked for by Ikilled007. That is the biggest reason why this article necessarily has so many child articles - so that some of these deeper issues can be given proper coverage with due weight. Many posters here seem to forget that this particular BLP is written in summary style. -- Scjessey (talk) 16:16, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

I mentioned it earlier - we know of exactly one article Obama wrote while president of the Harvard Law review.] Covered by Politico, the article mentions he approached the idea of whether fetuses who survive abortions should be able to sue their mothers. As noted in the article, he considered the eugenics concept that children should not be born with injuries more important than that they be born. In his words, "On the other hand, the state may also have a more compelling interest in ensuring that fetuses carried to term do not suffer from debilitating injuries than it does in ensuring that any particular fetus is born."

Just to make a guess, I would say probably Legal Positivism or Legal Realism, from what I have read of his comments in his senate transcripts. His Illinois Senate transcripts at www.ilga.gov are revealing when you look at the ones on controversial issues such as abortion. That would be one place to look.

However, as Frank said, it needs to have solid sourcing as well as relevance to be included. At this point I don't know that even if his legal philosophy could be determined, it would be a well-enough established fact to merit inclusion on the page. --Jzyehoshua (talk) 16:17, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

It would not be suitable for inclusion here, because it would be original research. As background, for clues of where else to look, it may be useful, but poring through Senate transcripts and articles written by the subject are not great places for information to be added to a biographical article on Misplaced Pages.  Frank  |  talk  16:22, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Agreed, I mentioned it only as a way for him to satisfy his curiosity, not as a primary means of sourcing, which is why I emphasized at the end that it would need the sourcing. I suppose if he could publish research done elsewhere it could then be cited, but without other sources and research would still be questionable. The more reliable sources the better. --Jzyehoshua (talk) 16:51, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Frank, don't you think that an accusations of supporting Eugenics(a concept that is associated with the Nazis) adds to the inflammatory accusations this user continues to make over and over here? I mean, the infanticide accusations and now the eugenics accusations definitely make it seem more likely that the user is also comparing Obama with Hitler above. When is enough going to be enough? Extraordinary accusations require extraordinary sourcing, and in a WP:BLP], it's even more so. Even on the talk pages. It's just ridiculous. I suppose I do not have the experience of some users here, but I would think the same sort of accusations have been made on the other side of the political spectrum, and rejected(hopefully). So I will leave my 2 cents and hope people eventually put a stop to these unacceptable accusations. DD2K (talk) 17:14, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Wow. That is either complete intellectual dishonestly, or you are completely mistaken. That article, and the referenced Harvard Law Review paper, never mentioned anything about fetuses surviving abortions. It was written in reference to fetuses suing the woman carrying the fetus(and anyone else) for negligence. Comparing the sentence that you take out of context to 'eugenics' is way out of line and not at all the case. Obama was referring to the State's interests of ensuring that the fetus is not injured during pregnancy and that proper prenatal care is a good incentive for would-be mothers. That's why the sentence starts out with 'on the other hand'. It is a reference to giving the fetus the right to sue the mother, which would mean that anyone could represent the interests of the fetus and prevent, or force the mother, to abandon her own choices. So 'on the other hand', it's in the State's best interest to ensure that proper prenatal care is encouraged and not to focus on any would-be rights of the fetus. I can't count the times you have misrepresented the truth on here. Starting with your initial edit on the Barack Obama article that accuses the President of supporting 'Infanticide', an innuendo that can be seen as comparing Obama to Hitler, accusing him of supporting eugenics, while also giving links and claiming they state something they do not. A whole pile of completely unacceptable behavior. DD2K (talk) 17:02, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

I think that debating a single source without having a proposed change to the article is very nearly a complete waste of time. If there is a proposed change or addition to the article, let's debate it. If not, what Obama may or may not have meant in a particular paper (which he may or may not have even written) is not useful here.  Frank  |  talk  17:30, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

No, what a legal scholar writes in a paper does not reveal their "philosophy" about the law, nor does a person's legal philosophy bear directly on their performance as a political leader. It's all too tenuous, speculative, and impertinent. Legal papers are written to advance theories and make legal arguments, not to advance an underlying philosophy. They're written in the third person without a direct claim about the author's opinions or motivations. Journals, in turn, select papers that advance novel subjects, theories, and arguments, not restatements of the accepted wisdom. The purpose is to challenge people to think, bring new things to people's attention, not to confirm what people already know. Politicans, in turn, act on all kinds of things - constituencies, influence, legislation, platforms, agendas. The philosophy behind these is far from the most pertinent thing, and even if it were known, the relationship between what's in the politican's heart of hearts and what they do is not direct. Every once in a while a pundit, opponent, advocacy journalist, etc., uncovers a tidbit from a politican's old writings where they seem to say something positive about X, and then say "Politican Y is pro-X". That is more or less hogwash, but as a rule those with political aspirations learn to avoid saying anythign that could be used against them out of context, which in turn makes it even harder to figure out what they truly believe by reading their writings. If anyone has anything specific to propose that would pass the WP:WEIGHT, sourcing, and relevance tests rather than being a curiosity or itself an isolated "gee whiz" news article, let's be more specific. Otherwise, the whole thing is just not fertile ground for reliably sourced content and will just take us into a forum-ish discussion about politics. - Wikidemon (talk) 18:04, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Which is pretty much exactly what I wrote.  Frank  |  talk  19:47, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Agreed. The bottom line is whether or not the sourcing is there. I probably shouldn't have even mentioned the Politico article, as there's simply going to be too much speculation over the issue unless Obama clearly said he subscribes to a given legal philosophy. If you'd like I can delete the comment, since I made it just as one interested in the subject when the comment, while interesting, can not be applied to furthering this page. I don't think we're getting anywhere here. Without sourcing showing Obama said he subscribes to such a philosophy, or multiple major research sources showing consensus about what philosophy he subscribes to, all of this is just pure speculation.

However, to the original poster, perhaps something less broad and more specific could be achieved. Trying to figure out his legal philosophies is too speculative, but perhaps mentioning articles he wrote, legal associations or organizations involved in, or comments about his legal background by close associates might be something we could put into the article. After all, your point that the section needs more detail might be something that holds true, even if the legal philosophies comment is a dead end. --Jzyehoshua (talk) 18:19, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

The opening sentence in the wikipedia article where it mentions that he is the first african american president is somewhat false. Barack Obama is multiracial, his mother was white and his father was african american. He should be listed as the first multiracial president. http://en.wikipedia.org/Multiracial. Misplaced Pages has many other notable multiracial people listed as multiracial why not Barack Obama? Sammy8912 (talk) 14:39, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Name one (just one will suffice) individual who is "100% African American ". Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 14:47, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/African_american. There is a whole list of African Americans there without one white parent. Barack Obama is considered multiracial since his mother was white. If both of his parents were of african heritage then I would agree that he is 100% african american. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sammy8912 (talk • contribs) 14:53, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

That is some real racialist junk. no-one is 100%-something. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 14:55, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Actually, Obama's father was not African American - he was African. And his mother is not white, she is varying shades of pinkish brown, and also of African descent (albeit removed from her African roots by maybe 10 generations or so). African American is a social construct, not a genetic one. But as other have said, what is important is the presentation in reliable sources, and they agree that he is African American. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 15:04, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

In the 'Proposed Changes' section I mentioned that I found this in the Misplaced Pages rules for the Misplaced Pages:Lead section guidelines:

"The lead should be able to stand alone as a concise overview of the article. It should define the topic, establish context, explain why the subject is interesting or notable, and summarize the most important points—including any notable controversies. The emphasis given to material in the lead should roughly reflect its importance to the topic, according to reliable, published sources, and the notability of the article's subject should usually be established in the first sentence."

Now, my question is, what should be the 'notable controversies' surrounding Barack Obama to be included in his introduction/lede?

Prominence/notability, as well as available reliable sources will play into this. I am interested in seeing what people think should be mentioned as 'notable controversies' in the lede. Again, what controversies are mentioned should then be compared by their prominence and sourcing. --Jzyehoshua (talk) 23:46, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

I am not aware of any controversy that would be considered notable, let alone notable enough for the article lede. -- Scjessey (talk) 00:27, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Well, that is a bit of a misstatement, as notability is a test of article suitability, not whether something is of due weight, relevance, and encyclopedic quality to be in the lede. It's not saying that we must include controversies in the lede, only that we include them if they're noteworthy enough, and don't avoid them. A better statement would be that controversies that are significant enough to be a major part of the article are not excluded from the lede simply because they are controversies. I'll probably propose a minor change to WP:LEDE to avoid confusion (in case you notice the obvious, over there). - Wikidemon (talk) 00:33, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Interesting. I've been reviewing the Misplaced Pages guidelines a lot lately and can find nothing saying that controversial content may not be included, which I think fits your statement of "A better statement would be that controversies that are significant enough to be a major part of the article are not excluded from the lede simply because they are controversies." I agree that it needs to fit the test of notability.

However, looking at the Notability guidelines showed me something else - the earlier controversial subject that started all of this, Obama's controversy with live birth abortion, may not only meet the standards of notability, but since notability is defined as "notability determines whether a topic merits its own article" and the sourcing on this issue is so unusually strong for an Obama-related topic, the topic may even merit its own page.

As the notability page states, "If a topic has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, it is presumed to satisfy the inclusion criteria for a stand-alone article." And, "Substantial coverage in reliable sources constitutes such objective evidence, as do published peer recognition and the other factors listed in the subject specific guidelines."

Now, take this commentary on Obama's history on live birth abortion:

• Background: Barack Obama beginning from his time in the Illinois Senate opposed numerous bills that would have stopped a practice where children surviving late-term abortions could be left to die. He considered them, though completely outside the womb and breathing, 'fetuses'.] (pp. 85-86) Bills included the 2001 Born Alive Infants Protection Act]](pp. 85-88), the 2001 SB 1661 Induced Birth Infant Liability Act]](pp. 88-89), the 2001 SB 1095 Partial Birth Abortion Ban Act]]] (pp. 50-66), and the 1997 SB 230 Partial Birth Abortion Ban Act]]
• Notability: Alan Keyes, Obama's general election opponent for the 2004 U.S. Senate, made the issue his primary talking point.]] At the time, activists such as Jill Stanek] and Phyllis Schlafly] also opposed Obama on such grounds. Keyes to this day continues opposing Obama on what he calls 'infanticide'.]] During the 2008 elections, both Sarah Palin] and John McCain]] criticized Obama over the 'Born Alive' controversy as well.
• Prominence: There has been no shortage of mainstream media coverage on this issue. During the 2008 Primary Election, Hillary Clinton and the National Organization of Women]], as well as other Congressmen]], accused Obama of voting 'Present' instead of 'No' on abortion bills. The Washington Post's "Fact Checker" also addressed the issue, noting his very lengthy voting history on the subject, but also pointing out that it was an agreed-upon strategy between pro-choice politicians and Planned Parenthood as a way to avoid public attention on controversial abortion bills.]] Obama defended himself by saying it was an agreed-upon strategy with Planned Parenthood.] In 2007 ABC News] and the NY Times addressed this Planned Parenthood-Obama-present votes connection ]] and both FactCheck] and PolitiFact]], as well as Time Magazine], Fox News], the Boston Globe], MediaMatters.org], the Huffington Post]]]], and NPR], all chimed in referencing the connection as well. In August 2008 there was also a lengthy back and forth between Obama, David Brody of CBN], and the National Right to Life Committee]] concerning his record on live birth abortion. Another exchange occurred between Obama's campaign, Jill Stanek, and Eric Zorn of the Chicago Tribune.] As covered by the NY Sun, Obama was facing attacks from all sides, and had first erroneously claimed he would have voted for the federal bill, but then upon confrontation with senate records dug up by the NRLC, his campaign admitted he'd voted against an Illinois bill with similar language.] FactCheck shortly thereafter supported this claim, and upon examination of the claims by both Obama's campaign and the NRLC wrote a widely covered] article called "Obama and 'Infanticide'" stating that Obama was misrepresenting his record on the issue, though it thought the term 'infanticide' open to interpretation.] David Freddoso, who also covered the born alive issue in his best-selling book, 'The Case Against Barack Obama' in August 2008, wrote in an article for the National Review that Stanek and O'Malley (primary sponsor of the born alive legislation previously mentioned) had teamed up on legislation such as the 1095 bill, and notes that Obama was the only legislator to speak against it on the senate floor.]
• Other Notable Coverage: The Huffington Post in April of 2008 attacked Deal Hudson for criticizing Obama on the issue of infanticide.]

I would posit that few other controversies are going to be as comparably notable as this. Or that few could rival the depth of sourcing (I deliberately included a few liberal and conservative secondary sources, though most were meant to be neutral ones). At any rate, as I read the guidelines more and more, the more I am convinced that the subject of controversy surrounding Obama's history on live birth abortion can meet the Misplaced Pages guidelines for notability, neutral point of view, no original research, and verifiability. --Jzyehoshua (talk) 01:35, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

I strongly recommend that this is the last time you use this talk page as a dumping ground for this perversion of the facts. Frankly, this claptrap about infanticide that you keep peddling absolutely disgusts me. This BLP-violating abomination should be eradicated from this talk page. -- Scjessey (talk) 02:07, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

It only violates the BLP, as I've said before, if the sources are wrong. Which is why I went out of my way to provide numerous accredited sources. And as has been pointed out, it is not biased to simply report that the accusation has been made. Everything I stated was sourced. If you think it violates the BLP, please state how. I see nothing wrong with the sourcing, the prominence, notability, relevance, etc. --Jzyehoshua (talk) 05:45, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Jzyehoshua - your attempts to find any consensus for these items have not met any success so far. That's an indication that they cannot meet guidlines for notability, neutral point of view, no original research, and verifiability. You continue to plaster "when-did-you-stop-beating-your-wife" statements but few proposed changes to the article itself. The "infanticide" issue is a total non-starter. Keyes is unimportant in a biographical article about Obama. The list goes on. I suggest you put individual proposed changes in separate sections and attempt to gain consensus on each one separately. You can see from this page that there is little or no support for what you've tried thus far.  Frank  |  talk  02:39, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

But the problem is, those who are disagreeing are not disagreeing with whether the material meets the guidelines or not. They are disagreeing because it is opposed to their worldviews and opinions, which is why they refuse to consider consensus. As I've showed, many of the major newspapers and neutral fact-checking organizations on the web, as well as even TV news agencies, have covered this issue. That suggests the objections raised here are ideological, not substantial, in nature. After all, the sourcing, relevance, and prominence are all undeniable. The issue is whether people on here like it or not, and they don't, because many of those here are liberal. I expected that. Again, consensus is not reached solely because nobody likes the views. Otherwise, I would expect to see more statements about why my sourcing fails to measure up or does not meet the guidelines. There is difference between lack of consensus because of bias and lack of consensus because of objective reasoning.

P.S. I have challenged perhaps half a dozen times now those suggesting I violated guidelines to state how and give specific examples. Only Wikidemon has provided tangible constructive criticism and examples. The fact is that those guidelines do not prevent controversy or negative statements being reported on (so long as it's done objectively). They only require exceptional sourcing for exceptional remarks. The controversies surrounding conservative politicians are reported on their pages and there is far less opposition to doing so than is seen here. What is more, I am sure many of them have less sourcing or even available sourcing than what is used here. --Jzyehoshua (talk) 05:45, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Look, I already quoted verbatim from the NPOV guidelines, the WP:BLP guidelines, and the Misplaced Pages:Lead section guidelines. At some point I expect those criticizing me of violating the guidelines to actually use this as more than just an attack, and actually give examples of what parts of the guidelines are being violated, and give examples of what parts of my works are violating them. I mean, I've been doing all the work citing this stuff. I can't be expected to be hypersensitively defending myself against every little accusation of violating a guideline with lengthy essays quoting from said guidelines if the accuser is too lazy to even give examples and cite what part of the guidelines and my writing is at issue. --Jzyehoshua (talk) 06:24, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Bottom line: can you show where there is WP:CONSENSUS for the change(s) you are thinking about? I say there is not, for two reasons: 1) I don't see it on this talk page, and 2) I don't even see a specific change request. This is not just any article on Misplaced Pages - it's one of the most watched, with over 1800 watchers. I understand that consensus is generally not a reason to revert a change, but for such a highly-visited (and watched) page which is on probation, things are different. Nobody's saying you can't edit the article. What's being said is that changes of a controversial nature on a WP:BLP article that is highly-visited and highly-watched and is on probation should be discussed first. I still don't see any specific proposals for changes to the article. What I see is a bunch of accusations and references and original research - but no specific changes being requested.  Frank  |  talk  14:57, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Please. If you don't have consensus - I don't care how many policies you cite - you cannot make these types of additions to the article. It can't get much simpler than that. Since you clearly do not have consensus, drop it. There have been a dozen or more of us who have given you quite clear-cut reasons why we cannot include multiple insignificant controversies, fringe theories, or the comparatively insignificant views of others about Obama. By the way, you are not helping your case by accusing us of being liberal, or accusing us of not providing tangible evidence against. WHSL 06:50, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

According to the Misplaced Pages Don't revert due to "no consensus" page, "Sometimes editors will undo a change, justifying their revert merely by saying that there is "no consensus" for the change, or by simply asking the original editor to "first discuss". Except possibly on pages that describe settled Misplaced Pages policy, this is not very helpful. After all, that you reverted the edit already shows that there is no consensus. But you neglected to explain why you personally disagree with the edit, so you haven't given people a handle on how to build the consensus with you that you desire.

Next to that, the behaviour discourages bold contributions, which are essential to building Misplaced Pages. Moreover, if you can't point out an underlying problem with an edit, there is no good reason to immediately revert it. Finally, there may in fact exist silent consensus to keep the change. Consensus is not unanimity, and is thus not canceled by one editor's objection."

Misplaced Pages encourages contributors to be bold in editing articles. Reverting a bold contribution solely on the basis of "no consensus" is a sign that the reverter simply did not like the edit. Keep in mind that no one can own an article. Moreover, if one editor favors a new addition (i.e. its contributor), and another opposes it (i.e. the potential reverter), consensus is no closer to being against it than for it until more editors comment or edit, or until the two editors in question can move toward a compromise, preferably through editing.

It is best to first consider whether there is a substantive problem with the edit in question. If it added unsourced or poorly-sourced information, try to find said information yourself, or failing that, note that in the revert summary. If it made the presentation of material awkward, edit to make the presentation less awkward. If it added a biased statement, try to find a way to recast it into a neutral mode. If it added instructions on how to do something, explain that Misplaced Pages is not a manual. If it removed content with no explanation or an unconvincing one, note that you are restoring valid content, and why the explanation is unconvincing (if the edit summary box is too small for this, continue on the talk page).

But if you feel that an edit should not stand yet can't point to any specific reason, for heavens sake, stop and think before you act. (never make any edit without a reason!)

In general:

  :1. Stop. Think.
  :2. Try to edit the page to better incorporate the edit in question
  :3. If you really can't find a way to incorporate the edit, revert it
  :4. Explain in detail what you tried, and why it didn't work. 
  :Even if the reason seems obvious to you, it will not always be obvious to someone else."

Also, according to the Misplaced Pages Consensus page, "Consensus is not immutable. Past decisions are open to challenge and are not binding, and one must realize that such changes are often reasonable. Thus, "according to consensus" and "violates consensus" are not valid rationales for making or reverting an edit, or for accepting or rejecting other forms of proposal or action."

As shown here, Consensus is not a reason in and of itself for reverting an edit, or "accepting or rejecting other forms of proposal or action." And furthermore, Consensus must be REASONED Consensus. "Reverting a bold contribution solely on the basis of "no consensus" is a sign that the reverter simply did not like the edit." Ultimately the basis of "no consensus" is a straw man that is an unsuitable qualifier - ultimately it comes down to, as the article states, "whether there is a substantive problem with the edit in question". Furthermore, those involved with the Consensus argument also have a duty to be attempting to "better incorporate the edit in question" and "explain in detail what you tried, and why it didn't work."

I do not like calling people out like this, and would prefer to work towards agreement objectively, but the fact remains that over half those commenting right now on my proposed edits are not providing any of the constructive material the previously quoted page says should be involved. They are telling me to achieve Consensus without following the Consensus page guidelines themselves. --Jzyehoshua (talk) 08:29, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

You might want to slow down a bit on the rule interpretation but to address the points you raise: lack of consensus should not be the sole reason for opposing an edit, just as lack of a citation should not either in most cases - there has to be a good faith bona fide objection to the material, at which point it becomes the job of the person proposing the change to achieve consensus, or wanting to include the material to find appropriate sources. If people are objecting to your desire to add something to the article under claim of "no consensus" what they really mean is that the objections are stated elsewhere and to their mind you have not (yet) established that there is consensus to overcome those objections. If they feel it is against policy and guidelines you would have to demonstrate a consensus for the interpretation / analysis that the proposal actually is permissible per the policy and guidelines. Policy / guidelines are mostly exclusionary, creating thresholds to meet before things can be added. Relatively few of them demand that something be included, they just permit it. So if it's within the territory of editor discretion you would have to establish consensus not only that the content is permissible, but that it should be added. You can look at WP:BRD for a widely-followed essay on that. You're right that having too many nay-sayers on an article discourages bold edits. This is a mature, featured article so the gradualist approach is probably a good thing. Otherwise good articles start falling apart to the entropy of hasty edits. It's probably gone too far here, and definitely too far on some of the other Obama articles, which are losing ground in their efforts to stay current because it is so hard to make major additions. Cest la vie. We can't solve that problem in a day. Contrary to the language you're quoting (or is that your own analysis?) on high-traffic important articles there is a role for precedent and for deferring to past decisions. The Arbitration Committee weighed in on the issue fairly recently with respect to this particular article, and said roughly that although consensus can change, excessive and contentious rehashing of matters that have been decided can be disruptive to the editing process. The answer is somewhere in between. Proposals should have a realistic chance of success - if something has been discussed and rejected a few times already, and it wasn't long ago, and there is no change in the subject we are covering or new sources about it, and the same editors are still here, it is pointless to repeat the same discussion. It also doesn't work, you can rarely win consensus to edit the article by wearing out people's patience for discussion. I do agree that the people arguing against your proposals are not providing constructive criticism. I'll hazard a guess as to the reasons. I think you started off on the wrong foot with an overly bold edit and some aggressive comments on the talk page. Some people here are very alert to trouble and perhaps see it where none is intended. I think that is unfair to you but given the history of the article it's not surprising. And finally, these discussions have been going on a long time and gotten off track. I think people just don't feel like talking about it anymore. I'm not one to talk about brevity, but I think many of your posts - the last one a case in point - are very long and quote long stretches of policy that you could just link to, plus the extensive use of bold is distracting, people liken that to ALLCAPS or shouting!!!!! I actually think a number of your content proposals are good ones, and people would probably accept them if we could find a more effective way to discuss it. I'm still planning to propose some modest changes along those lines one at a time, so if we can all take a deep breath and try to be patient, we'll work through this. Anyone who's gotten this far, can we all chill out a little bit? Cool? Wikidemon (talk) 09:21, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

True, that's all I've been saying, that those accusing me of no consensus or violating a policy should state exactly what's wrong with it, and how it violates the policy. I tried numerous times now to get specific users to start a conversation over source validity, prominence of the sources, relevance to a section, neutrality of wording and how to improve it, etc. What statements on this I actually heard I actually compromised on very, very early on. For example, I agreed quickly that if the word 'infanticide' was too offensive to some then it could just not be used and an alternative like live birth abortion specified in its place. I've also tried to avoid framing and asked others how they thought sentences could be reworded to avoid violation of NPOV. I specifically brought up such high quality and high profile sources, as well as examples of mentions by all major campaigns, to combat the 'fringe' theory that keeps making the rounds. Not that it would matter either way.

According to the Misplaced Pages Fringe theories page it should be abundantly clear that fringe theories which are notable, well-sourced, and covered well by the mainstream media still warrant inclusion. I'll avoid posting this one out unless there continues to be disagreement over that. And also, sorry about the bolding - I've just done that primarily for quoted material to make clear what parts I most wanted read and to ensure they wouldn't get overlooked. I like to quote surrounding material as well to show context but then like the bolding so it shows exactly what I'm concentrating on, and since it's WP guidelines, didn't think it as much an issue as if I was bolding my own words, which I've mostly avoided here (the starting paragraph in the Consensus section is the one exception I can think of).

I would like to try the WP:BRD page's outline of resolving this dispute, as there seems little alternative at this point save arbitration, but since this is a protected page, am not sure I will be able to do so. And yes, all the language being quoted was from the articles except for a few points towards the end. It made it tough to tell since I left the original double quotation marks from the page in instead of changing them to single quote marks.

You're also right it may just be an instance of my using an overly bold edit at the beginning - however, to be fair I was unaware the term infanticide would be so poorly received. Here in Illinois that term has been used quite a bit in the news during the earlier Obama election involving Alan Keyes so I was, I thought, just using a popular media term to refer to the situation that would quickly ring a bell for those who'd seen it in the news. Once I realized how many people were unfamiliar with Obama's elections and the terminology, I quickly backed off from the term and began proposing alternatives. I suppose it is more widely used here in the U.S. than in other countries, and I notice many are surprisingly from the U.K. --Jzyehoshua (talk) 15:35, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

I must ask: outside of this one editor's opinion (and yes, by an outsider's look it is an opinion) is this is a huge thing and not some rambling of a pro-lifer who really doesn't like the president. How has this made news today? Is it being carried on CNN, MSNBC, Fox News, etc? Is it a big topic in the news papers? (excluding blogs and opinion pieces) Outside the pro-life community, is this topic really being associated with the president (I.E. the common person on the street would spout this when asked about the president?). In all honest opinion, this looks more like a big point to extreme pro-lifers then it does to the country at large. Finally, and more to the point, is this such a large issue, I mean really a glaring issue that everyone in the country recognizes it and believes it or questions it, to be included in this article? Brothejr (talk) 09:58, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

I don't think that's the proposal on the table. Bear with this, I think we can restate the various content proposals in a focused, productive way at some point. - Wikidemon (talk) 10:20, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

If it involves Keyes and infanticide, it will surely be rejected. This sort of distortion must be discouraged, because it violates WP:BLP quite seriously. -- Scjessey (talk) 14:21, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Yes, it is a major issue. That is why I brought up its relevance by major politicians. The fact that Alan Keyes in the 2004 senate election, Hillary Clinton in the 2008 presidential primary election, and both McCain and Palin in the 2008 general election made it a talking point against Obama should've been, I thought at least, a major red flag here. When his last 3 major opponents in elections have all brought it up, and when it's been referenced in what at least here in the U.S. are some of the major news publications - it's pretty big. Here in Illinois especially, it has been the major issue involving Obama that people will be familiar with. That is why I quoted so much from the Chicago Tribune, Chicago Sun-Times, and other Illinois newspapers - to show out of state users just how major an issue this has been here in Illinois particularly. The major newspapers and news channels have addressed it extensively, particularly during the 2004 elections. The NRLC, primary pro-life group here in the U.S., has also been pushing the issue for years, and thus it has been a back and forth between them and Obama's campaign to the extent that major fact-checking groups like the Washington Post's Fact Checker and FactCheck.org have objectively weighed both sides. I already quoted from the Fox News and MSNBC articles where the subject came up. In the Consensus section, I even noted that several Fox News anchors and guests have accused Obama of infanticide:

-Sean Hannity]

-Glenn Beck]

-Rush Limbaugh]

-Newt Gingrich]

-Ann Coulter]

-Dr. Jerome Corsi]

Also, here is another example of Fox News reporting, though in print, of coverage of the infanticide issue.]

Fox News in particular has allowed this issue to be brought up many times now.

I don't follow CNN as closely but found evidence it has been addressed there as well.]] The issue has received so much coverage in fact that a CNN reporter even questioned Obama for CNN about the issue.]

I did some more Googling and didn't find evidence yet of it being addressed by MSNBC on public television yet. However, there is plenty of overall evidence out there. Simply google the name of a major news network and the terms Obama infanticide (possibly video as well) and you will see for yourself. There is plenty of sourcing out there that can be found at any time simply by using Google to search for it. It is why it is so easy for me to find sources on this stuff at will right now.--Jzyehoshua (talk) 15:35, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

This is beyond a joke. All the sources you have found fall into 3 distinct camps:

1. Obama's political opponents (like Keyes) making wild unsubstantiated claims.
2. Right-wing media pundits (the rogues gallery you list above) taking the wild unsubstantiated claims and trying to make them into a bigger deal than they are.
3. Normal mainstream media (which does not include FOX, by the way) debunking the wild unsubstantiated claims when they are not covering runaway balloons.

If you really believe this stuff is important, you have been duped by the first 2 groups. You are doing exactly what they want you to do, which is to try to push their agenda into Misplaced Pages articles. In doing so, you are committing multiple violations of WP:BLP, and quite possibly defaming Obama. -- Scjessey (talk) 15:55, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

At this point, you're going to disagree with any sources I provide. You'll just keep Moving the goalpost no matter what I do. First Brothejr said, "How has this made news today? Is it being carried on CNN, MSNBC, Fox News, etc?" Then when I provide evidence from Fox News you say it's not a news network (contrary to the prior comment he made implying it "made news today" and when I provided evidence from CNN you threw in the "runaway balloons" comment alleging that even if it could be proven CNN had covered it, that it would just be mistaken coverage anyway. Ultimately, there's simply nothing I could do to convince users like you, so why bother? I think it better to just accept that you and I won't agree on this, so that focus may be put on areas where Consensus can be achieved. --Jzyehoshua (talk) 16:10, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

What are you talking about? I did not ask those questions. You are attributing statements made by others to me. -- Scjessey (talk) 16:16, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

I recognized it and changed it almost instantaneously (same minute) that you made the comment, when I realized it was by brothejr and not you. --Jzyehoshua (talk) 16:19, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

If the proposal is that we make some overarching comment that there is a controversy over Obama's support for abortion, or any mention that some people accuse him of infanticide, then no - BLP problems, poor sourcing, NPOV, and undue weight. The "rogues gallery" of professional agitators mentioned above just isn't encyclopedically important, except on the rare occasion when through their outrageous prose and antics they manage their way to bootstrap their way into the national stage. Not just because they said it -- they say lots of stuff -- but because it actually creates an impact beyond their own typical audience. Keyes is particularly fringe-y here. He may not have been acknowleged as such at the time but at this point as one of the more vexatiously litigious birthers his relevance and credibility level is nill. If Keyes' primary campaign strategy in the election was to attack Obama on abortion that can be stated neutrally and is arguably worth five or six words in the section devoted to that election, more in the article on the subject. But there's a strong counter-argument that given the election margin, his ineffective election tactics made no difference to Obama or anyone else so they aren't worth covering at all. I think this is the weakest of the content proposals. Best to start with the stronger ones that have more of a chance of passing scrutiny. - Wikidemon (talk) 17:51, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

When was it added? Do we really need it? "Obama is the fourth U.S. president to be awarded the Nobel Peace Prize. He is the third to become a Nobel laureate during his term in office, and the first to be recognized in the first year of his presidency."

This leads probably to nowhere. Sometimes I feel that Obama's page is like a collection of Guiness world records. Róbert Gida (talk) 16:16, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

If you want to find when something was added to an article, look at that article's edit history.

No, Nobel prizes aren't Guinness records. -- Hoary (talk) 16:56, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

Have you ever read a Guiness book? In that you can read such details who is the first(/second/third) in a particular subject. But that is unencyclopedic here. Don't you feel that Obama's page is full of records? Róbert Gida (talk) 17:11, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

What is quite notable and is reliably sourced is not unencyclopedic. A lot of "firsts" listed on Obama's article are quite historic - the "first African American President" one being the most eminent example - and cannot be compared to, for instance, "man with the most tattoos", which is indeed unencyclopedic. Your specific example refers to the Nobel Peace Prize, and you feel that this is useless trivia. The Nobel Peace Prize is not trivia. It is one of the most noted accolades in our world today. WHSL 23:34, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

I already asked, but will provide one more opportunity for those who think edit #4 violates the rules on WP:NPOV to provide solid proof before I make the edit. If you think the below edit violates the guidelines on Neutral Point of View, please state why and make your case.

Edit #4:

Obama's expected opponent in the general election, Republican primary winner Jack Ryan, withdrew from the race in June 2004 following a widely-reported sex scandal. Two months later, and with less than three months remaining in the election Alan Keyes accepted the Illinois Republican Party's nomination to replace Ryan.

Following a race in which Alan Keyes was heavily criticized by the press both for being a 'carpetbagger' and for allegedly evicting his daughter Maya Keyes for her homosexuality, and with Alan Keyes running a negative campaign criticizing Obama primarily on the issue of Obama's voting record on live birth abortion, Obama in the November 2004 general election received 70% of the vote to Keyes' 27%, the largest victory margin for a statewide race in Illinois history.

When responding, please state on what grounds you think it violates NPOV.

• Undue weight to minority view. If choosing this, keep in mind that "in determining proper weight, we consider a viewpoint's prevalence in reliable sources, not its prevalence among Misplaced Pages editors or the general public".WP:WEIGHT Therefore, this relates to the 3rd bullet, insufficient or unreliable sourcing. Also, "Misplaced Pages aims to present competing views in proportion to their representation in reliable sources on the subject." Therefore, you must also state what the competing subjects are (in this case, perhaps issues during the 2004 senate election) and evaluate the proportion of reliable sources between the subjects.
• Editorial bias in wording. If choosing this, state not only where the bias occurs, and why you believe it occurs, but also how the bias can be removed through alternate phrasing. Be constructive.
• Insufficient or unreliable sourcing. State why you think a given source is unreliable. This will then involve the WP:V rules, i.e. Verifiability. If the source is not among the "reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy", can another suitable source be found?
• Statement of opinion. State why it is opinion, and how you think the wording can be improved.
• Editorial bias in not presenting all facts or points of view. State what facts/POV are not being presented, and give an alternative suggestion you think would include all points of view.
• Relevance. State why you think the material does not belong where it does. Since the subject is the 2004 Illinois Senate election, why would this not be permissible for mention if it was a primary issue during the general election? Are you arguing that the issue was not a primary issue during the general election? If so, what is your reasoning and do you have sources to show another issue or issues were more prominent?
• Other. If you think there is another basis allowed according to the NPOV article, state what, and outline why the edit is in violation of it, and how the edit can conform to the guidelines.

Further points:

-In the Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view/FAQ it states, "We report views that have been published by reliable sources. We do not report views that are held by tiny minorities, or views that reliable sources do not write about. Beyond that, we make no judgements. No view is omitted because someone might see it as prejudiced; if it is omitted from Misplaced Pages, it is because reliable sources have omitted it."

--Jzyehoshua (talk) 21:15, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

Including the late-term abortion stuff gives undue weight to the view of his political opponent. I suggest you log off wikipedia, sit back, and enjoy the rest of Christmas, because you'll be hard pressed to reach a consensus to include it. ~ DC (Talk|Edits) 21:19, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

An interesting point. I hadn't heard that posed as a reason yet. However, isn't the point for reporting on this the fact that it was a major issue in the press and thus reliably sourced in depth during the election, not because it was his opponent's view? Likewise, to take the flip side of that, what would have been the major issues for the campaign when focusing on Keyes as opposed to Obama? I tried to provide the 2 major issues surrounding Keyes during the election as well, the controversy with his daughter and the carpetbagging accusation. I think we need to look at what the reasoning was for including the 'carpetbagging' mention in the first place - because it was a major issue during the campaign and sourced among reliable, verifiable sources as such. Yet even more so was the live birth abortion issue - an issue which proved prominent not just during that election but in years since for Obama as well. However, even though his campaign has been addressing it and putting out press releases and creating fact sheets against it on their web site - it was not mentioned at all on this article. I think that is telling. Again, I don't see this issue as being about whether or not it was a major view of Keyes. I see it as being at issue because it was prominent in the press and during the general election as a historical factor. --Jzyehoshua (talk) 21:30, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

I see that you, Jzyehoshua, have added the above without achieving consensus, and have reverted other editors' attempts to revert your edits because of this. You refuse to stop changing back to your version on the basis that we haven't addressed your argument on the talk page. This is getting ridiculous. There have been a dozen of us, who have given extremely reasonable arguments to reject adding the above, yet you reject those arguments on the basis that we are somehow too liberal, and that we are somehow to understanding you. How much clearer do we have to get? You do not have consensus (yet), and you are adding potentially POV text that gives undue weight to specific topics. That is simply rude. That does not earn you my respect. I demand that you stop reverting multiple editors until discussion is at least resolved. I apologise for the heat present in this comment, but you are annoying me by ignoring everyone else who has commented on this talk page. WHSL 02:18, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

As I already quoted from the Don't revert due to "no consensus" page and nobody addressed, in the Notable Controversies section, the Consensus page states, "if you can't point out an underlying problem with an edit, there is no good reason to immediately revert it... Reverting a bold contribution solely on the basis of 'no consensus' is a sign that the reverter simply did not like the edit... It is best to first consider whether there is a substantive problem with the edit in question." I also quoted from the Consensus page, "Consensus is not immutable. Past decisions are open to challenge and are not binding, and one must realize that such changes are often reasonable. Thus, 'according to consensus' and 'violates consensus' are not valid rationales for making or reverting an edit, or for accepting or rejecting other forms of proposal or action." Also stated in the Consensus section, "Consensus among a limited group of editors, at one place and time, cannot override community consensus on a wider scale. For instance, participants in a WikiProject cannot decide that some generally accepted policy does not apply to articles within its scope, unless they can convince the broader community that such action is right." And finally, as I already stated in the original post here, in the Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view/FAQ it states, "We report views that have been published by reliable sources. We do not report views that are held by tiny minorities, or views that reliable sources do not write about. Beyond that, we make no judgements. No view is omitted because someone might see it as prejudiced; if it is omitted from Misplaced Pages, it is because reliable sources have omitted it."

Ultimately, the bottom line is that a lack of Consensus is, as stated in the guidelines, not a valid rationale for making or reverting an edit, or rejecting other forms of proposal or action. And if you can't point out an underlying problem with an edit, there is no good reason to immediately revert it. No view is omitted because someone might see it as prejudiced; if it is omitted from Misplaced Pages, it is because reliable sources have omitted it. Beyond that, Misplaced Pages does not make judgements.

All people keep telling me is that because their personal opinions are such that they don't like the subject, that their consensus is enough to keep the topic from ever seeing the light of day... regardless of how notable and prominent it was in the press, as a historical factor, and how much reliable sourcing there is to support that. And I am saying that, no that is not accurate. According to the Misplaced Pages guidelines, Consensus is not a valid excuse for reverting an edit. Consensus is here being used as an excuse for biased discrimination against representation of a notable historical fact concerning a notable public figure for which there is otherwise no good reason for opposing its inclusion. Ultimately, "if it is omitted from Misplaced Pages, it is because reliable sources have omitted it." If you have a problem with the sourcing, that is one thing, but I am hearing no challenges to the primary sourcing. All I keep hearing is, "we don't like that view and our agreement that we don't like it should keep it from being included." Unless you have a "substantive problem" with the edit the Consensus is irrelevant. Ultimately, Consensus only counts if it involves a valid issue with the edit, such as invalid or unreliable sourcing, not merely biased dislike of the topic. --Jzyehoshua (talk) 07:52, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Also, to your other point about POV, I also addressed that earlier (and again, no one responded), in the Proposed Changes section, and bolded it as well so it couldn't be overlooked.

As I quoted from the WP:NPOV rules, "The neutral point of view is a means of dealing with conflicting perspectives on a topic as evidenced by reliable sources. It requires that all majority- and significant-minority views be presented fairly, in a disinterested tone, and in rough proportion to their prevalence within the source material. Therefore, material should not be removed solely on the grounds that it is 'POV', although it may be shortened or moved if it gives undue weight to a minor point of view, as explained below. The neutral point of view neither sympathizes with nor disparages its subject, nor does it endorse or oppose specific viewpoints. It is not a lack of viewpoint, but is rather a specific, editorially neutral, point of view. An article should clearly describe, represent, and characterize all the disputes within a topic, but should not endorse any particular point of view... Neutrality requires views to be represented without bias. All editors and all sources have biases (in other words, all editors and all sources have a point of view)—what matters is how we combine them to create a neutral article. Unbiased writing is the fair, analytical description of all relevant sides of a debate, including the mutual perspectives and the published evidence."

Anyway, my point is simply that everyone has a POV. Material should not be removed solely on the grounds that it is POV, just as lack of Consensus is not reason for removing material. Ultimately, it is not removing all viewpoints, but rather showing all relevant sides of a debate with emphasis given based on proportion of reliable sources. All editors and all sources have biases and a point of view. All NPOV means is combining them to create a neutral article. Therefore, as with the Consensus issue, this comes down to sources, not whether there is a POV involved or whether people dislike the topic. And as I have stated several times now on this talk page, I am always willing address the sourcing for my proposed edits so that it conforms to Misplaced Pages standards. --Jzyehoshua (talk) 09:04, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

(inserting) - None of those quoted guidelines and essays are terribly apt, or overcome the fact that to make a disputed edit you need to establish consensus. If consensus is not on your side you must win it, and if winning it is not going to be possible there is a reasonable limit to the frequency, extent, and vehemency of advocacy of argumentation past which it just takes things off track. It's hard to accomplish much going far into Misplaced Pages meta-discussions about the nature of policy on individual talk places. The long and short is that if you want to add abortion stuff to the section about Obama's first senate win you'll have to convince people that's the right thing to do. The objections I see are not simply because Keyes' views on abortion represent a small minority position, but more importantly that Keyes' election-year talking points are just not that significant to the overall scope of Obama's life, the subject of the article. That is a substantive objection, and people who oppose the material on that basis can rightly revert it for the lack of consensus. I'm not sure where the whole POV thing comes in, and frankly I'm having trouble understanding why this is such a big deal on either side. The material you are proposing does not seem terribly POV as proposed, nor does the objection. - Wikidemon (talk) 10:18, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Yes. I have come to the conclusion first that administrative approval would be needed, and now that other Misplaced Pages users must accept it as well. At this point I suppose I will simply end up making my case and leaving the matter alone until other users recognize the need for the inclusion of such material.

However, the issue I have is that this is more than just a 2004 Keyes vs. Obama issue. Perhaps I should not even have tried putting it in the 2004 section. There have been back and forths between Obama's campaign and the NRLC in the years since resulting in press coverage. The issue came up again when Hillary Clinton during the 2008 primary election made Obama's present votes on the bills an issue, and in 2008 during the general election when McCain and Palin mentioned it. And then there's the matter of the federal version of the bill Obama opposed going on to become a major law, and the criticism of his voting record in the press long after the Keyes vs. Obama senate election had ended.

Ultimately this is a much bigger issue than just 2004. I hope some here are starting to realize that, and that the issue isn't the typical abortion vs. prolife partisan battle, but rather a whole other matter unique in and of itself. The issue of partial birth abortion is more controversial than regular abortion to the extent that a federal law was passed against it, and Obama's voting record relating to the Illinois version of that federal law is arguably the major controversy during his life and entire career. --Jzyehoshua (talk) 17:44, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

FYI, the appropriate term is "Intact dilation and extraction. Terms such as "live birth abortion" and "partial birth abortion" are dysphemisms created by anti-abortion folks to push a POV and are not medical terms. As such, they really don't belong here. --averagejoe (talk) 02:40, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Well, the fact that a major public law, one of the most major ever passed by Congress concerning abortion, is called the "Partial Birth Abortion Ban Act" shows Partial Birth Abortion is another valid term. I would personally question how many people though would be familiar with the term "intact dilation and extraction" as it has been far less used in the press. When the issue has been publicized it has used terms such as partial birth abortion, live birth abortion, or late-term abortion. I don't believe Misplaced Pages states that only medical terminology can be used on Misplaced Pages. Rather, the qualifier is whether it has been applied by "reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy". For that reason, I think you might actually have more difficulty showing whether that term has been applied prominently than that the other terms have, because when this issue is at a nationally prominent level such as involving an election campaign or legislative event, the other terms are the ones that tend to get brought up. --Jzyehoshua (talk) 07:52, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps the ideal would be to state both terms simultaneously? e.g. "the medical procedure of intact dilation and extraction, also known as partial-birth abortion". My main concern is that people have some idea what is being talked about here. If your term is mentioned alone, that probably won't happen unless the context makes it clear some other way. I suspect that when the term "intact dilation and extraction" is used by the press or a 3rd party published source, it is done either with use of a popular term such as those mentioned, or else with an explanation about what the term means. I'm just concerned with whether or not people know what is being talked about; and the other terms are likely more popular because they are more self-descriptive. --Jzyehoshua (talk) 08:11, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

The only other thing I would mention is that the term may not be technically accurate. Many of the bills did primarily address the procedure of intact dilation and extraction, but some specifically addressed the care provided after the procedure, i.e. to infants who survive the procedure of being prematurely born, killed with scissors or vacuums upon exiting the womb (my apologies to those who prefer the term fetuses), and for whatever reason the procedure goes wrong and they get born alive. Under Illinois law, they could legally be left unattended to die, and the specific law Obama ended up speaking against, in his own words, was summarized as "there was a method of abortion, an induced abortion, where the — the fetus or child, as – as some might describe it, is still temporarily alive outside the womb. And one of the concerns that came out in the testimony was the fact that they were not being properly cared for during that brief period of time that they were still living." Therefore, as you can see it doesn't deal necessarily just with the abortion itself, but the process afterwards where fetuses or children who survive are left to die unattended. It is that facet which makes the whole issue so controversial, not the procedure itself. --Jzyehoshua (talk) 08:33, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Assuming for a brief nanosecond that any of this anti-abortion POV nonsense being pushed by Norman No-mates were to find its way into the article, there would be no need to use the anti-abortion scare language to replace "intact dilation and extraction" because it would be a blue link. -- Scjessey (talk) 15:41, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

I'd suggest those wishing to use the term "partial birth abortion" or "live birth abortion" read up on the history of those dysphemisms at the article to which they redirect - Intact dilation and extraction#Partial-birth abortion. Same goes for the continued misuse of infant when fetus is the correct term.--averagejoe (talk) 17:43, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

At this point, as a result of the federal law, the Partial Birth Abortion Ban Act, passed in 2003 but not upheld by the courts until 2007, the practice of 'intact dilation and extraction' is illegal here in the United States. Again, I repeat, a federal law uses the term "partial birth abortion" and it passed through Congress with what was not a particularly close vote either.

Therefore, I think the burden of proof upon you to explain why you would call a dysphemism what serves as the name of a federal government law.

Furthermore, in the findings of Congress concerning the Act when it was passed, both the terms 'child' and 'infant' were used. --Jzyehoshua (talk) 07:09, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

Also, for those who are curious, in that same document relating Congress' findings on one of the most major laws relating to abortion in U.S. history, it states in section 2(13)(G), "In light of this overwhelming evidence, Congress and the States have a compelling interest in prohibiting partial-birth abortions. In addition to promoting maternal health, such a prohibition will draw a bright line that clearly distinguishes abortion and infanticide, that preserves the integrity of the medical profession, and promotes respect for human life."

As such, both partial birth abortion and infanticide are federally used terms by the U.S. Government to describe the practice of intact dilation and extraction, a practice which is considered separate from abortion. --Jzyehoshua (talk) 10:17, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

• How many times do we have to go round this loop? Guy (Help!) 23:25, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

• It does seem that not much has changed in the few days I was mostly away, as skimming through the above shows we're still on the same "OMG infanticide!" attempts at article inclusion. Giving such weight to fringe causes is a non-starter IMO. Tarc (talk) 13:02, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

Ironic that you've kept trying to label it fringe, even though it's now been shown that every single major election opponent of his since 2004 has brought it up (Keyes, Clinton, McCain, Palin), the federal version of the bill he voted against went on to pass Congress with so much support it might even have had enough votes to potentially override presidential vetoes, and the American people oppose partial birth abortions much more strongly than regular abortion. As already stated on the Partial Birth Abortion Ban Act page, "A Rasmussen Reports poll 4 days after the court's decision found that 40% of respondents "knew the ruling allowed states to place some restrictions on specific abortion procedures." Of those who knew of the decision, 56% agreed with the decision and 32% were opposed. An ABC poll from 2003 found that 62% of respondents thought "partial-birth abortion" should be illegal; a similar number of respondents wanted an exception "if it would prevent a serious threat to the woman's health." Additional polls from 2003 found between 47–70% in favor of banning partial-birth abortions and between 25–40% opposed.

According to a 2003 ABC News poll, even though 57% of Americans said abortion should be legal in all or most cases, an even higher amount, 69%, said partial birth abortions should be illegal. According to PollingReport in 2007, that number should be 75%, while a 2003 Gallup poll showed 70%.

Even if you could label the pro-life movement as fringe, you would still have more difficulty portraying the movement against partial birth abortion as fringe, since it has led to the most major restriction relating to abortion in U.S. History, and possibly the second-most famous abortion-related bill, the Partial Birth Abortion Ban Act, and has more public support even than the pro-life movement itself.

It is because Obama voted against the Illinois version of that bill which would garner such an unusual amount of Congressional and public support for what some considered a pro-life bill, that even he himself stated on the senate floor, "it turned out during the testimony a number of members who are typically in favor of a woman's right to choose an abortion were actually sympathetic to some of the concerns raised and that were raised by witnesses in the testimony." (pp. 86) Even normally pro-choice members of Congress and the public did not support partial birth abortion. You without realizing it are trying to label as fringe the pro-life movement to have garnered the most public and Congressional support. --Jzyehoshua (talk) 15:55, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

Just because an entity of a government calls a thing by a given title doesn't mean that wording is correct or accurate. Remember when one administration tried to call Ketchup a vegetable? If you're referring to the "title" of something, then whatever the title is should be used. Otherwise, use the correct word or term. Same with "pro-life". Most living things are pro-life. Some folks are "anti-abortion", a far more accurate term. Indeed, the Associated Press encourages journalists to use the term "anti-abortion". Infant and fetus have definitions out here in reality-land, regardless of what folks with a POV say in documents they write (and regardless of who "they" are). Please use factually descriptive words instead of euphemisms or dysphemisms.

That being said, the topic seems pretty much irrelevant to this article. It's apparent by Jzyehoshua's wording, intensity of insistence, and threats to edit-war that they are desperate to push a "baby-killer" POV into this article. I would say keep it out, and if Jzyehoshua continues with this behavior I'd say keep them out as well.--averagejoe (talk) 16:28, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

I personally don't think ketchup is a vegetable, but if the claim is so ridiculous, then why is there a Misplaced Pages page on it? --Jzyehoshua (talk) 16:54, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

If one had read the article, one would understand that it was the sheer chutzpah of such a claim - and the ensuing blow-back - that made that fiasco newsworthy and encyclopedic. Calling ketchup a vegetable didn't make it so. Calling Obama a baby-killer doesn't make it so, either. Equating abortion to infanticide doesn't make it so. Again, words have meanings. I'd suggest investing in a good dictionary and not relying on talking points memos, religious tracts, or the rantings of mad men for one's reference sources.

Again, I concur with keeping the proposed tripe out of the article.--averagejoe (talk) 17:15, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

I never said Obama should be called a baby-killer on Misplaced Pages. I never said that Misplaced Pages should equate abortion with infanticide.

All I have been saying is that the controversy should be reported on, and that just as Misplaced Pages mentions the ketchup controversy without stating it is true, so the born alive controversy surrounding Obama must also be mentioned.

Now, what the particulars are in how that is mentioned I am extremely willing to compromise on. Every time an alternate term has been proposed instead of infanticide I have been willing to consider it as an alternative. There were earlier discussions about using other terms, and once I realized infanticide was such a controversial term here, I started talking in terms of using other words such as partial birth abortion, late term abortion, live birth abortion, etc. As I previously stated, I even had no problem with the use of the term intact dilation and extraction apart from the concern that people wouldn't be familiar with it or know what it meant since it is less self-descriptive. I also agreed to compromise on wording and asked for feedback on how to phrase mention of the controversy objectively.

I never said I even wanted Misplaced Pages to use the terms Obama and infanticide, or any other given term, in the same sentence. All I've been saying is I want to see the controversy mentioned. How that is done is what I wanted everyone to talk about. --Jzyehoshua (talk) 17:56, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

It will not be done, since, despite your protests to the contrary, it is a fringe point of view. Tarc (talk) 18:01, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

"the born alive controversy surrounding Obama must also be mentioned"

There is no "born alive controversy" surrounding Obama. This is utter fantasy, and having it tendentiously pushed here is getting really tiresome. -- Scjessey (talk) 18:12, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

You've said you're "extremely willing to compromise" - but that presupposes the topic you are "compromising" on has consensus for inclusion - which it clearly does not. You seem to be implying that the objection is the specific term used, when in fact, the objections are that it simply isn't worthy of inclusion in an article about Obama's life as a whole. The info you are trying to include here is already in United States Senate election in Illinois, 2004; I'm not sure I like the wording and lack of sourcing there, but it's at least the right place for the content. What one political opponent said - in particularly divisive wording - in a single campaign in the man's career is not major material. And ketchup really isn't important here either.  Frank  |  talk  18:38, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

Agree with Frank, as above. There's no need for compromise on adding something when that addition has overwhelming consensus against it. The material is already discussed on the correct article, it doesn't belong here. Dayewalker (talk) 18:57, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps you didn't see it, Frank, but I earlier provided extensive sourcing showing that this has been an issue throughout Obama's career, not "one political opponent... in a single campaign".

• Background: Barack Obama beginning from his time in the Illinois Senate opposed numerous bills that would have stopped a practice where children surviving late-term abortions could be left to die. He considered them, though completely outside the womb and breathing, 'fetuses'. (pp. 85-86) Bills included the 2001 Born Alive Infants Protection Act(pp. 85-88), the 2001 SB 1661 Induced Birth Infant Liability Act(pp. 88-89), the 2001 SB 1095 Partial Birth Abortion Ban Act (pp. 50-66), and the 1997 SB 230 Partial Birth Abortion Ban Act

• Notability: Alan Keyes, Obama's general election opponent for the 2004 U.S. Senate, made the issue his primary talking point.] At the time, activists such as Jill Stanek and Phyllis Schlafly also opposed Obama on such grounds. Keyes to this day continues opposing Obama on what he calls 'infanticide'. During the 2008 elections, both Sarah Palin and John McCain criticized Obama over the 'Born Alive' controversy as well. David Freddoso, who also covered the born alive issue in his best-selling book, 'The Case Against Barack Obama' in August 2008, wrote in an article for the National Review that Stanek and O'Malley (primary sponsor of the born alive legislation previously mentioned) had teamed up on legislation such as the 1095 bill, and notes that Obama was the only legislator to speak against it on the senate floor.
• Prominence: There has been no shortage of mainstream media coverage on this issue. During the 2008 Primary Election, Hillary Clinton and the National Organization for Women, as well as other Congressmen, accused Obama of voting 'Present' instead of 'No' on abortion bills. The Washington Post's "Fact Checker" also addressed the issue, noting his very lengthy voting history on the subject, but also pointing out that it was an agreed-upon strategy between pro-choice politicians and Planned Parenthood as a way to avoid public attention on controversial abortion bills. Obama defended himself by saying it was an agreed-upon strategy with Planned Parenthood. In 2007 ABC News and the NY Times addressed this Planned Parenthood-Obama-present votes connection ] and both FactCheck and PolitiFact, as well as Time Magazine, Fox News, the Boston Globe, MediaMatters.org, the Huffington Post, and NPR, all chimed in referencing the connection as well. In August 2008 there was also a lengthy back and forth between Obama, David Brody of CBN, and the National Right to Life Committee concerning his record on live birth abortion. Another exchange occurred between Obama's campaign, Jill Stanek, and Eric Zorn of the Chicago Tribune. As covered by the NY Sun, Obama was facing attacks from all sides, and had first erroneously claimed he would have voted for the federal bill, but then upon confrontation with senate records dug up by the NRLC, his campaign admitted he'd voted against an Illinois bill with similar language. FactCheck shortly thereafter supported this claim, and upon examination of the claims by both Obama's campaign and the NRLC wrote a widely covered article called "Obama and 'Infanticide'" stating that Obama was misrepresenting his record on the issue, though it thought the term 'infanticide' open to interpretation.
• Other Notable Coverage: The Huffington Post in April of 2008 attacked Deal Hudson for criticizing Obama on the issue of infanticide.

As you can see, this has far more notability than a single election campaign. --Jzyehoshua (talk) 21:36, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

I apologize that my mentioning of ketchup was misconstrued. I was merely trying to relate that just because the government (or some component/subdivision thereof), or any particular group (such as some National Anti-Abortion Association) calls something something else doesn't make it so. It was merely an example of such events happening, not that the existence of an article on some unrelated topic made a case for inclusion of tripe in this article. I agree with the majority here that this trip should not be included in this article.--averagejoe (talk) 20:25, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

No need to apologize, I consider it a good point, for it showed that Misplaced Pages can report on controversies without necessarily supporting them, and indeed even has a responsibility to treat other views fairly so long as there is prominent sourcing for them and perhaps a historical component as well, regardless of which partisan demographic they may be associated with. --Jzyehoshua (talk) 21:36, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

Jill Stanek, Phyllis Schlafly, Sarah Palin, John McCain, Alan Keyes...we previously covered (and closed) the rogues' gallery of commentators, now we're on to direct political and ideological opponents? Even Hillary Clinton was a political opponent until the 11th hour. Regardless - the issue here isn't what he said or may have supported; there can be endless discussions on that point and no consensus will be reached. It just doesn't rise to the level of interest in a biographical article of the man. It's in his Senate campaign article (which he won by an historical, overwhelming margin), and there may be a place in the presidential campaign articles, but it's not a defining characteristic of the man. Enough said. It's politics. Your attempts to make it significant are not gaining consensus.  Frank  |  talk  22:29, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

But who evaluates whether it rises to such a level of interest? I have sufficiently shown by now that this was a major controversy during Obama's political career that was referenced both in the press and by his political opponents, one which he sought to defend himself against with speeches, ads, press releases, and even website documents.

Other politicians on Misplaced Pages have the major controversies detailed on their pages. Why is it so different for Barack Obama? All of this debate here is because you didn't want my edit to provide even a handful of words mentioning a nationwide controversy that has spanned years and years of Obama's career and resulted in criticism covered by major news outlets.

Ironically, we have spent days and days and expended thousands of words arguing, almost this entire page, because of a proposed edit whose only mention of the subject was "with Alan Keyes running a negative campaign criticizing Obama primarily on the issue of Obama's voting record on live birth abortion" --Jzyehoshua (talk) 23:14, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

Because this is a featured article, which means that it must be strongly and strictly upheld to our neutrality standards—something that 99% of the coverage of political controversies do not do. I don't think it's a major controversy at all (if it was, it'd get some modicum of coverage internationally, and, as far as I know, it did not). Examples of controversies that did gain coverage in the UK are Afghanistan, the Nobel Prize, wavering on gay rights (I remember seeing Lady Gaga piercing our ears shouting "are you listening?" on BBC News 24), wavering on health care, et cetera. Even if it was, the term "live-birth abortion" is not neutral phrasing; the only way it has any chance of being used is by using the medical terminology, not the political, as politicans are well known for outright ignoring the medical community to make a political point. Sceptre 00:09, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

We've covered this. Who=WP:COMMUNITY. How=WP:CONSENSUS.  Frank  |  talk  00:41, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

I don't think it's that the other articles violated the neutrality standards. I think it's that they simply reported on prominent criticisms of political candidates. The bottom line is that the status of this as a featured article on probation is being used to treat Barack Obama differently than the other 99% of politicians on Misplaced Pages.

While I was able to find mention of the subject in U.K. newspapers, I was surprised to see that what little coverage there was was derisory and mentioned the subject as minimally as possible. For example, it would write the protesters at Notre Dame off or falsely equate criticism of partial birth abortion or infanticide to merely criticism of Obama's abortion views. It did not mention major coverage finding otherwise by fact-checking bodies such as FactCheck.org or the Washington Post's Fact Checker. U.K. news seems far more one-sided and less comprehensive to me from what I saw. I had never looked primarily at U.K. content before, and was surprised to see that it appears to be far more liberal than here in the U.S. where both sides are mentioned.

I was however able to find mention of the subject in a Canadian newspaper.

I suppose if you are not from the U.S., I can understand a bit more, since even though this is very prominent here in the U.S., I was not able to find much mention of it at all in U.K. newspapers. However, I don't understand why this should be grounds for excluding mention of the subject on Misplaced Pages. The article is about a former senator from here in Illinois, and now elected president here in the U.S. Shouldn't sources from Illinois and the U.S. be enough grounds for inclusion of the material? Just because other newspapers outside the U.S. haven't picked up yet on events that primarily concern the U.S. and U.S. events shouldn't mean that the prominence of this issue in the U.S. can't justify inclusion of the material on Misplaced Pages. --Jzyehoshua (talk) 10:07, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Also, I only switched to the term 'live birth abortion' because the original term, infanticide, was disapproved of by editors. Other major terms used by the press include partial birth abortion and late term abortion. I already stated I would be fine with those terms as well and that my only concern with use of the term 'intact dilation and excretion' is that it's too non-descriptive to be clear it involves abortion, and too rarely mentioned for people to associate with the issue. I would be fine with use of another term though, and already had a discussion earlier on which term would be best used. --Jzyehoshua (talk) 10:19, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

The same problem that we keep circling to is your I think it's that they simply reported on prominent criticisms of political candidates type of statement. I do not know how many times it needs to be said, but it is not a prominent enough criticism to warrant entry into the main biographical article of the president. It gets one line ("attacked Barack Obama for voting against a bill that would have outlawed a form of late-term abortion") over at United States Senate election in Illinois, 2004#Obama vs. Keyes, and that is likely all the light of day this topic will ever see. Please, accept that your edit proposal for this article has not achieved anything close to consensus and let's all move on. Tarc (talk) 14:23, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

It's also already mentioned on the Political positions of Barack Obama, Barack Obama social policy, United States Senate career of Barack Obama, The Case Against Barack Obama, Comparison of United States presidential candidates, 2008, Alan Keyes, William R. Haine, Jill Stanek, James Dobson, Nat Hentoff, Gianna Jessen, and The Committee for Truth in Politics pages.

It should also be mentioned on the NRLC, Mike Huckabee, Fred Thompson, and Rush Limbaugh pages but is not. --Jzyehoshua (talk) 16:54, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Awesome. Does that mean we (and by we I mean you) are done with the movement to insert it into this article? Tarc (talk) 17:10, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

No. I think it noteworthy that Misplaced Pages considers it alright to mention it in all those other places, but not as a controversy on the main page of the politician it most concerns. Until Misplaced Pages fixes that, I think this should prove a primary concern. --Jzyehoshua (talk) 17:36, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

It isn't a significant controversy. Tarc (talk) 17:38, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Obama was a presidential candidate, and presidential elections get loads of coverage over here. If it was a major controversy during the (2008) election, it would have been in the news here. And regarding bias in news sources: you've got it the wrong way around. The UK isn't too liberal; the US is too conservative. Sceptre 17:24, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Point taken (too conservative vs. too liberal). However, at this point it clearly was a major controversy over here. Whether you guys report on it or not is up to you. I don't know why you didn't report it over there, all I know is it was major over here. --Jzyehoshua (talk) 17:36, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

It seems the only people who think this is a "major controversy" are those with a very strong anti-abortion POV. The rest of us either don't care or don't agree that it is a pressing and relevant issue. Thus far I've seen little, if any, support for including this trivial tripe in the article. How do we close this topic and move on to more important things (such as Ketchup (or is it Catsup?))?--averagejoe (talk) 18:02, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

So in summary, Frank and Sceptre don't think it has enough international criticism, scjessey and Tarc deny that it's a significant controversy (although how they define significant controversy in such a way that this doesn't measure up I'm not yet sure), and your primary objection seems to be that it's "tripe", a term you've now used 4 times. --Jzyehoshua (talk) 18:13, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

I think a better summary would be: The community consensus demonstrated here is that this material does not belong in this article.  Frank  |  talk  18:18, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

And why did that Consensus occur, Frank? In your own summary? --Jzyehoshua (talk) 18:25, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

That consensus occurred because a significant number of editors are saying the same thing.  Frank  |  talk  18:28, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

And what is that same thing? --Jzyehoshua (talk) 18:33, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

As I stated in my summary: This material does not belong in this article. (Furthermore, it's in several other articles, where it is more relevant to the topic(s) being discussed in those articles. But that is a secondary point; the main point here is that it doesn't belong here.)  Frank  |  talk  18:35, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

And why was it decided the material didn't belong in this article? --Jzyehoshua (talk) 18:40, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

(after ec) - A more accurate summary would be this: There is overwhelming consensus that this isn't a significant controversy. In fact, there is overwhelming consensus that this isn't any kind of controversy at all. I would agree that in the tiny universe of extreme anti-abortionists it is probably a "significant controversy", but nowhere else. -- Scjessey (talk) 18:24, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

And why was it decided this wasn't a significant controversy? --Jzyehoshua (talk) 18:27, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Nobody "decided" anything. Nobody but you had even heard of this alleged controversy, as far as I can tell. Why am I wasting my time responding? I'm going to go and empty the dishwasher. -- Scjessey (talk) 18:36, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

But didn't the 50+ sources I provided and the numerous other articles on Misplaced Pages referencing the controversy show that at least here in the United States it has been a significant controversy? --Jzyehoshua (talk) 18:40, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

(OD) Agreed. Can we please conclude this and wrap up this thread? This section is choking the page. Dayewalker (talk) 18:26, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Add the following text: Despite of the world financial crisis and double digit unemployment rate the Obama's family take two weeks in Hawaii for Vacation.

Video reference: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxIpYSxLDYY Róbert Gida (talk) 00:44, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Seems both irrelevant and NPOV issue. How many days has he been on vacation thus far, and how does that compare to the previous POTUS? --averagejoe (talk) 00:55, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Try it, type in Google Obama in Hawaii. You will get hits for his previous vacation. I think his number of vacations is approaching to the first year of G.W.Bush's number. But note that after 911 there was much less vacation. 87.97.41.56 (talk) 01:24, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Utterly irrelevant, which means I don't even need to point out the original research or point of view in the comment. He's the President of the US, not the Justice League. Dayewalker (talk) 00:59, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Would it be improper to request that whoever closes a thread sign his or her name to the thread-closing, as part of the historical record? I can't think of any good reason why that information is not immediately available next to the text explaining why the thread has been terminated. Thoughts? Ikilled007 (talk) 10:47, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

The name can be seen by clicking the View history tab at the top of the page, and checking the history of changes. However, it's not a bad idea. The only thing right now is I don't believe you can use the sign tool when making such an edit unless you want to write your ID out manually. Perhaps Misplaced Pages could perform such automatic signing or allow it somehow via future changes to the website? --Jzyehoshua (talk) 10:54, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

Oh, never mind, it seems you can sign them. I will sign the ones I closed at least. --Jzyehoshua (talk) 11:03, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

What I would do in that case is to add a comment just below the {{hat}} tag, and I usually indent it and put it in italics to make clear it's a comment about my edit rather than about anything anyone else said, e.g.:

Thread closed to avoid getting further off track. - Wikidemon (talk) 11:06, 27 December 2009 (UTC).

It's best to make closing comments as neutral and matter of fact as possible so they aren't seen as doing battle. I also think it's good that people are waiting until there's really nothing good that can possibly come out of a thread, when even the people who are commenting there are glad to be done with it, and then collapsing them rather than removing comments. That keeps a good record. Now if we can only get back on track... :) - Wikidemon (talk) 11:06, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

←Just noting here that I closed a few waste-of-time threads because they had been started by User:Róbert Gida - now indef blocked for being a probable sock puppet of Multiplyperfect. I left one of them open (Talk:Barack Obama#More trivias?) because it seemed like a reasonable discussion. -- Scjessey (talk) 16:04, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the cooperation, people! Much appreciated. Ikilled007 (talk) 19:05, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

I just caught on to what the cohesive effort was by scjessey, Sceptre, and Unitanode was. They improperly closed an active thread without reason, 'Neutral Point of View', and then took turns reverting it to try and get me to violate a rule called the Misplaced Pages:Three-revert rule. Fortunately I caught on just in time to this sinister tactic.

I will ask those initiating this edit warring to explain their justification for closing the thread, as this action seems to be required before posting to an Administrator's noticeboard, where scjessey is already facing potential discipline for a separate incident. He, I found out, has already engaged in similar cases in the past. This was just one of them. He is also coming off a recent ban, and is already engaged in active attacks on other members.

This seems a serious offense for scjessey and his fellow cohorts, and thus I seek an explanation for the events occurring. --Jzyehoshua (talk) 22:02, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

That Frank, Dayewalker, and averagejoe are involved seems clear as well, although to what extent I am still uncertain. I am sure all responsible parties will be held accountable when all of this is said and done. --Jzyehoshua (talk) 22:02, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

For goodness sake. There is nothing sinister about this, Jzyehoshua. The discussion was closed because you were tendentiously pushing an agenda, instead of participating in a meaningful discussion that might have actually led to something. It was overwhelmingly apparent that you had no support whatsoever for your proposed changes, yet rather than accept that you had failed to win consensus, you continued to argue and argue and argue and argue ad infinitum absurdiam. The discussion was closed to prevent you from further wasting the time of ALL the other editors participating on this talk page. Yet here you are again, wasting our time with more nonsense about "cohesive efforts" and "cohorts" and all that typical bullshit when someone cannot admit when they are wrong. -- Scjessey (talk) 22:08, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Your long history of edit warring can be seen from all the violation warnings on your talk page. I found out you have a history just on this page alone.] Tarc who filed against me recently was according to that page also found to have "engaged in incivility in comments and edit summaries". Sceptre it said, "has engaged in edit-warring and continued to revert Stevertigo outside of the Barack Obama FAQ. and engaged in edit summary attacks." Sceptre and you were subjected to editing restrictions for one year. Tarc was "reminded to be civil when dealing with hot button and controversial situations." According to your talk page, Tarc is also with you on the Climategate article, the other article you are being accused of edit-warring on. You have a long history of personal attacks and edit warring according to your profile, and I, it appears, was just another target by you and your friends in what has been a long history of Misplaced Pages crime.

That it was a concerted attack is evident from the revision history.] After I reverted the closed discussion, you reverted it back the same minute. Sceptre reverted after my revert within 1 minute. And Unitanode's was 3 minutes after. You were all just waiting for me to make the reverts, hoping to get me waiting. You must have been waiting and ready all morning while I unknowingly did not make the reverts, for my own reasons expecting an admin to revert the improperly closed article. To the extent that hours later you were so primed and waiting you made the reverts just minutes after mine. I'm not stupid. --Jzyehoshua (talk) 22:29, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Meanwhile, after all those hours of nothing happening, you, Frank, and averagejoe suddenly began commenting almost the exact minute this started happening with comments warning me not to continue edit warring. You must've had them prepared as evidence afterwards that I'd broken the rules, and were likely hoping I'd make all 3+ edits before I could notice the warnings and figure out what was going on. Since I'd already admitted on several pages this was my first time encountering this sort of situation, you must've figured I'd never figure it out in time. --Jzyehoshua (talk) 22:33, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Well, in my case, I started commenting because I noticed you were edit-warring. Nothing sinister about that. And - despite the edit-warring behavior, nobody's called for you to be blocked for it yet, either. Your previous edits were not edit-warring; previously you've been continuing to argue points that aren't gaining consensus. When you directly undo another editor's edits repeatedly, that's edit-warring. That's why you were warned for it; no other reason (at least in my case).  Frank  |  talk  22:39, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

And which is why I said I'm still not sure to what extent you, averagejoe, and Dayewalker are involved. It could've just been coincidence you commented so early on my page when the 3rd revert was close to happening. At the same time, it could've been a pre-prepared comment to be used as later evidence after the fact that I'd been warned at the time, and you've just been covering your tracks very, very well. Like I said, not sure. --Jzyehoshua (talk) 22:54, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

What you're apparently not understanding is that it is most definitely not a coincidence! The point is that the comments were made on your talk page because you were starting to edit-war. The warnings were placed so you could avoid it. In addition, it most definitely is a pre-prepared comment - see {{uw-3rr}}. There's no sinister tactic going on here; what you're seeing is the community doing what it always does, all over the 62,295,609 pages on the project. You have chosen one of the most highly-watched pages to jump in and "fix".  Frank  |  talk  23:03, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

For the umpteenth time, can we please not use this article talk page to accuse other editors of things? There's already a thread on the article probation enforcement page, which is one place to deal with editor conduct. This page is for discussions related to managing and improving the article. If everyone has read this and had their say, can we please close this and move on to actual content roposals? Thanks, - Wikidemon (talk) 22:43, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

I only made this discussion because the Misplaced Pages administrator's noticeaboard template requires me to discuss this on the article talkpage before reporting an incident. --Jzyehoshua (talk) 22:54, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

(EC) A clear (near-unanimous) consensus exists that thread is resolved. The thread is so large, it's causing slowdowns when people (including me) load the page. Multiple editors have closed it in hopes of moving on, I agree with them whole-heartedly, and would have also closed the thread if I had seen you reopen it. Please accept the current consensus, as what you're doing is tenditious editing. Dayewalker (talk) 22:46, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, funny how everyone decided to close the one active discussion, the most recent and relevant one, as opposed to just archiving the old ones on the subject. --Jzyehoshua (talk) 22:58, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Er, Jzyehoshua, what is it exactly that I "filed against you" ? Have no idea what that refers to. As to the ArbCom case, yes, I received a relatively mild admonishment for general incivility and some rather brusque edit summary usage on this page back in the day. I make it a point to no longer engage in either, though if at any time you feel differently, the proper complaint venue is available for your usage. Tarc (talk) 23:05, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm referring to the case you, User:JzG, and User:Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters filed against me a week ago.] --Jzyehoshua (talk) 23:35, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

I made a single comment in that very long section, that isn't "filing". And ironically enough I noted that a ban probably wasn't warranted. Are you going to have a WP:Plaxico moment here and goad me into reconsidering that? Tarc (talk) 01:04, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

I thought for some reason you were one of 3 filers of it. Maybe I read too much into your having commented there by the time I found out about it. If it was just a comment and not actually filing it, I'll apologize. I thought you'd helped file it for some reason. --Jzyehoshua (talk) 08:23, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

If everyone can just keep still and not say anything for a week, it'll all be archived :) Anyway, thanks for the attempt to follow proper procedure but I do not foresee anything good coming out of an AN/I report, just recriminations and hurt feelings. The "I" part of AN/I, "incidents", is a signal that the administrators there generally only deal with current, active, pointed problems, not long-simmering disputes, which this one is by now. We also have a mediation cabal case afoot, and a report over there at the article probation notice board. The best way to resolve this is with a big dose of patience and goodwill on all sides. Failing that I would let the mediation and any existing reports play out, and after that, hope we can encourage a wise, impartial administrator to help play traffic cop to sort through this. I think I could make such a request, as long as nobody flames me for it. Wikidemon (talk) 23:08, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

• Interestingly enough, I've been on opposite sides of debate from several of my supposed "partners" here. Sometimes, Jzyehoshua, you're just wrong. UnitAnode 23:10, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

At this point, I suppose it's best for the admins to sort it out. I tried to take it to Mediation and go through this with discussion, but it seems the opposing users wanted to move against me to such extent that both avenues have become impossible. --Jzyehoshua (talk) 23:35, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

"The admins" don't sort things out. This is still a community, and if there's anything to be sorted out, it will be done by members of that community. The only thing an admin would be required for is if there's a reason to implement a block. As long as nobody does anything requiring a block, there's no need for any admin action.  Frank  |  talk  00:39, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

• I'll warn you, if you get administrators involved in this, there's a greater-than-zero chance you'll be blocked for 3RR/edit-warring. UnitAnode 23:42, 28 December 2009 (UTC)
  • I know that. And if they ban me, oh well. Whether I passed the 3 reverts or not I am not sure yet. It was close. --Jzyehoshua (talk) 08:23, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

I hadn't known what the 3 revert rule meant or that it included the talk page discussions until this, but I think I stopped at 3 reverts on the history, but they might count it as 4 since I did 2 separate edits, one to remove a hat and one to remove a hab, so am not sure. Guess we'll see. --Jzyehoshua (talk) 08:29, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

There's at least one admin who's already involved and I've in fact argued that it's not appropriate at this time. I will say the path is a possible one, but it's always a possibility with any editor. (And, being involved, I wouldn't do it myself, of course, except in a most egregious circumstance. We're not in that sort of situation at all.)  Frank  |  talk  00:36, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

This issue is now being discussed at http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Edit_warring

I will notify the users involved. --Jzyehoshua (talk) 10:07, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

This is getting extremely disruptive. The only "edit war" I see is Jzyehoshua warring with every other editor and then feigning innocence ("apparently there's some sort of 3RR rule"). I try to assume good faith (although Jzyehoshua abandoned any such notion some time ago) but I can't help noticing something extremely familiar about the tireless battle/edit-war/point actions of this editor. And, coincidentally or not, they're editing from the Chicago suburbs.

I've mostly stayed out of these discussions because I can't keep up with the pace of them, but also because have a feeling that when this is all done, we'll be shaking our heads at the ridiculous amount of time that was wasted on this distraction yet again. --Loonymonkey (talk) 18:47, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Currently you write more about his Harvard studies than his role in Iraq's war, what is a blame, shame, and unacceptable, regarding its importance. Róbert Gida (talk) 00:00, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

This isn't the place to discuss blame or shame - we're all volunteers here trying to help improve articles. Please see the notices at the top of this page. I see three main reasons why this article concentrates more on Obama's relatively uncontroversial life events than on current events. First, it is a biographical article, not a chronicle of his political career. If you read any biography from Ben Franklin to George Bush, there will be more chapters on schooling, family, marriage, early career, etc., than their days in the sun. Second, events of the presidency are newer and still unfolding. It will take a long while for history to decide what to make of this, and longer yet for us to sort it out on the encyclopedia. Third, when things are controversial there is sometimes a logjam, with some people wanting to say it one way and others wanting to say it another way. It takes time to work through it, and in the meanwhile the best compromise is to leave the article as-is until people reach agreement. Do you have any specific suggestions for things to add to the article? Maybe you can help unjam the logs a bit. - Wikidemon (talk) 00:08, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

"to add to the article" I haven't said that to add something to the article, first you should remove those items what shouldn't be in an online encyclopeida, for example remove the "most ..." sentences. Everybody know that he is a great talent politican, but write it only once and don't repeat it many many times, currently in the article:

• ranked him as the "most liberal" senator
• he was ranked sixteenth most liberal
• ranked him as the eleventh most powerful Senator
• politician who was the most popular in the Senate
• Obama was rated as the most popular world leader Róbert Gida (talk) 01:18, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Can you clarify exactly what text you want added to the article, along with the source(s) that verify that text? --guyzero | talk 01:42, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

I do share that specific concern that ranked assessments of liberalness, power, and popularity aren't all that encyclopedic. The article ought to be about Obama, who he is, what happened, etc., not a ranking of surveys about him. We cannot say he was the 11th most powerful senator because there is no universal standard for that, and even if they were what difference does it make? So why does it matter that one particular survey reached that conclusion? But each one of these statements did achieve some kind of consensus when it was added to the article so it might be best to go through them one-by-one to see if they are significant opinions per WP:WEIGHT, relevant and helpful to the article, reliably sourced, etc. - Wikidemon (talk) 03:43, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

I'll take the first pair. After markup stripping, under "U.S. Senator: 2005–2008", The National Journal ranked him as the "most liberal" senator based on an assessment of selected votes during 2007; in 2005 he was ranked sixteenth most liberal, and in 2006 he was ranked tenth. I'd never heard of this magazine; Misplaced Pages (not a RS, of course) says of it: "The yearly subscription rate is $1,160" -- thanks, but no thanks. For now, let's assume that it's worth a sizable proportion of its stupendous subscription fee and is worth citing. I don't see any unnecessary repetition here, although the order is odd and it's a bit wordy. I'd instead say ''The National Journal ranked him as the 16th most liberal senator based on an assessment of selected votes during 2005, 10th in 2006 and top in 2007.

(Róbert, you appear to assume that "liberal" is a term of praise. But you have to remember that this is the USA, where "liberal" is almost a term of abuse to a large section of the population. It's all rather confusing, but this page isn't my soapbox so I shan't attempt to explain.)

Is there some other repetition within the article involving estimates of the relative liberalism of Obama? -- Hoary (talk) 03:49, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Closed by Guy (Help!) 10:20, 20 December 2009 (UTC); archived by Wikidemon (talk) 12:34, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

see: http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=114118&sectionid=3510213

Add to the article: Under Obama administration 140 American banks failed. 25 US banks failed in 2008, compared with only three in 2007. Róbert Gida (talk) 23:55, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

No, the proximate cause of the bank failures is the business success of the banks themselves due to their own individual performance, under the circumstances of the Financial crisis of 2007–2009. More generally, "X happened while Obama was President" information is not appropriate to this article, which is a biography about the life and career of the man, not an attempt to tie world events to his indirect influence. It may be appropriate to summarize Obama's policies, bills sponsored, executive decisions, and / or political appointments in the sections on his senate and presidential career, in which the rate of bank failures might be relevant for context, although these are condensations of much longer articles on the subject elsewhere. If you could get past that hurdle you would need a better source, though, because the article says nothing at all about Obama. Tying an article that doesn't mention Obama to his actions as president is WP:SYNTH - you should review that section. Thanks, - Wikidemon (talk) 00:18, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

Róbert Gida, your pattern of interests and prose style suddenly look oddly familiar. Have we perhaps met before? -- Hoary (talk) 01:14, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

While a bit blunt, the prose is far too coherent and lucid for it to be our old degenerate buddy Joehazelton, if that is who you were thinking of. I think we can WP:AGF on this one. Tarc (talk) 01:49, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

I don't recall Hazelton or any of his chums; I was thinking of an earlier denizen of this talk page, somebody who favored Hungarian-sounding usernames. Maybe it's just my imagination (or my intelligence deficit caused by some very recent reading of bollocks such as this). -- Hoary (talk) 01:57, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

I really needed to know that Og's (Original Gangsta?) mom died while making his lunch. That article needs some help. Tarc (talk) 04:04, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

Isn't it a personal attack (the above 4 comments) ? It is interesting when Obama fans run out of arguments then starts attack. Wikidemon thanks for your write, the article doesn't mention Obama's name, but I'm using my brain. He is the president for almost one year, responsible for this situation also. To develop this large number of bank failures indicates that he has done nothing. Róbert Gida (talk) 09:17, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

It's not that we've run out of arguments, it's that some of us have argued this point already in the past and another hundred or two doesn't change the game. While I'd hardly call "coherent", "lucid" and "favoring Hungarian-sounding usernames" attacks, please forgive the editors above for likening your failure to understand this issue to that of other editors ignorant about issues they seek to add to an encyclopedia. Welcome and congratulations on your first posts at Misplaced Pages. Abrazame (talk) 09:55, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

The numbers are important factors of the status of economy, when a year, in last year of G.W.Bush presidency 25 banks closed, and under Obama this is more than 5 times, then I would call it remarkable. This isn't criticism, these are only dry facts, like the 26 years high unemployment rate, what is currently in the article. Róbert Gida (talk) 10:23, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

We don't need to cover his every move; this is a biography, not a news feed.  Frank  |  talk  12:46, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

watch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrrobKLtI8E

My proposal for the main article: "In December of 2009 Obama visited youth center. Met only with black kids." Róbert Gida (talk) 11:24, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Yes, that's correct in the main article, but please give me another US president on wikipedia where it is written that x.y. is the first president born in z. Sorry but there is no such example for

• Ulysses S. Grant is the first president born in Ohio (not in wiki)
• John Adams is the first president born in Massachusetts (not in wiki)

and so on. This is another example that the Obama's article is full of uninteresting trivias. Róbert Gida (talk) 01:12, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

ps. write for ongoing topic closers: Could you prove your statement? Why are you closing every topic on wiki? It's talk page. Why are you run away from discuss among peoples? Write your opinion and don't afraid from real arguments Róbert Gida (talk) 01:50, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Eisenhower. --guyzero | talk 01:49, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

If a question is answered and there is nothing else to discuss, there's no reason to leave a section. Grsz 01:53, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

There are 21 states where a president born, how many of them contains this detail? 2, that's very few, this proves that it is a side information, just a boring trivia. Róbert Gida (talk) 01:56, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

And just a check on your truthiness, Grant wasn't the first from Ohio, he was the second, and his article does say that (which is even less significant). Also, Lincoln's says he was the first born in the West. Grsz 02:04, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

You are not remotely interested int he truth. But here you go, 366 results from Misplaced Pages.org for the search phrase"The first President born". Perhaps if you use a bit of that curiosity and actually tried to answer your own questions first, before making these silly accusations, you would be better off and not so angry about having the topics closed. You have access to the internet, and Google is available to you. Try it out.DD2K (talk) 02:08, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

For what it's worth (and ignoring any process issues), I think we should remove the statement that Obama is the first president born in Hawaii. We have 50 states and 44 presidents. For what it's worth the folks over at the Grant article should remove that trivia (but of course report where he was born). Lincoln's being the first in the (then) West was actually significant, it represented a geographical shift in American politics and the geographic conception of the country. Not a huge deal either way, but Obama's is a far less remarkable "first". - Wikidemon (talk) 02:07, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Are you kidding? As I posted above, there are hundreds of references to "The first President born in" throughout Misplaced Pages, and you don't think that the first President born outside of the Continental United States should be mentioned? I have to say, I think that's off base.DD2K (talk) 02:12, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

I've been saying it for months. The fact that he comes from Hawaii is relevant, of course. But that he's first from Hawaii is not heralded as any kind of breakthrough, accomplishment, political sea change, etc., just a matter of local pride. Putting it in the second sentence alongside his being the first AA president gives it undue importance. It was in and out of the article, I think, and most people don't pay it much attention because it's inoffensive. - Wikidemon (talk) 02:18, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Incidentally, regarding the WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS argument, there are actually only 19 non-duplicate google hits, of which there are only 4 attributing a president to be the first born in a particular state or geographic area. Another 8 (some about the same president) refer to being the first in various circumstances of birth, e.g. first born a US citizen, first born in the 20th century, first born in a hospital. I would argue that these are mostly cruft. The other 9 include a President of Ireland, a non-English encyclopedia entry, a simple wikipedia entry, talk pages, etc. I don't know about the other 300+ duplicates that google doesn't see fit to show. Of these the only one that seems particularly important is Lincoln. - Wikidemon (talk) 02:26, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

It should be obvious that the fact that Barack Obama was the first President born in Hawaii should be included in the article. It's historic. Definitely not as important as being the first African-American to reach the White House, but an important not nonetheless. I could care less where it's mentioned, although the "as well as the first president born in Hawaii" shouldn't be controversial in any way.DD2K (talk) 02:34, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

That's why I don't care much either, but it's not at all obvious to me that it's pertinent, quite the opposite. Jimmy Carter was the first President born in a hospital, Obama in Hawaii, John Adams first non slave owner, James Garfield first ambidexterous, Taft was first golfer, Virgo, and Yalie, also the fattest president. Gerald Ford, first eagle scout. Reagan, first divorcee.... - Wikidemon (talk) 02:55, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

I get all that from this source, which points out that George W. Bush is the first "honored in a traditional Iraqi shoe tossing". Maybe some people get more out of these factoids than others. Who undid the "hat" by the way? that takes all the fun out of it :( - Wikidemon (talk) 02:55, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks Wikidemon, that reference says also that Ulysses is the first president from Ohio, so I've right and Grsz is wrong and also wikipedia which says that Ulysses was the second. What could cause misunderstanding that William Henry Harrison call Ohio home, but actually he born in Virgina. This is another good example that wikipedia is full not only with trivias but also with false statements. Róbert Gida (talk) 09:45, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

I seem to recall that Jimmy Carter was the first president from the South since Reconstruction. There had been a mistrust of southerners—well, I'll presume you all know the history. My point is that there is meaning, a deeper significance, to things that are truly historic, and that meaning is worth using article space to convey, even if only implicitly. The only meaning, and the only thing implicit in, the mention that he is the first from Hawaii seems to be that he is the first from Hawaii — unless the point is to underscore that he was not born in Kenya or France or Norway or someplace sinister like that. After all, he represented Illinois, and not Hawaii. If someone won the presidency with a constituency and campaign headquarters on a few small islands in the Pacific, that would be quite a feat, and worth its own sentence in the lead.