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Revision as of 23:02, 5 November 2009

OUTLINE DISCUSSIONS: My talk page is not the place for general debate about this topic, thanks. If you feel you must comment here on outlines, do it on the subpage linked on the left. Verbal chat

I should have seen it coming.

Regarding the list of psychic abilities: I felt as though the basis of distinguishing from among "real-world" and "fictional" psychic abilities was not altogether clear. There are some who believe with unassailable certainty that all aspects of the paranormal are fiction and, furthermore, that those who make assertions to the contrary are, at best, misguided, perhaps delusional. Were such a person to be presented with one list comprised of psychic abilities that have manifested in the so-called real world and another drawn from fictional sources, he or she would inevitably fail to see any difference at all between the two and summarily dismiss them both as products of an overactive imagination (and maybe even add "Get a life!" for good measure).

That claims of psychic ability have a demonstrated resistance to independent verification and replication under controlled conditions - for whatever reason - hardly lends credence to the opposing argument (the mention of this is a common element in most articles on psychic abilities). It also does not help matters when declarations of psychic ability may be nothing more than the product of self-serving bias. One of my favorite illustrations of this relates to Aliester Crowley, a man who, by any measure, never seemed to lack for a high opinion of himself or the company of others who were willing to glorify him on his behalf (although I mean no disrespect either to him or his adherents, of course). It comes from the article on bilocation: " was reported by acquaintances to have the ability, even though he himself was not conscious of its happening at the time." I can just imagine the conversation that took place after this occurred. Crony: "Aliester, I saw you on the moor yesterday." Crowley: "But I was here at the manor all day." Crony: "You know what this means, don't you? You must have been in both places at the same time!" Crowley: "Oh. Alright. I suppose I was. That is, yes, of course I was!"

On the one hand, I am not denying that he possessed this ability; in a similar regard, I am not implying that his acquaintances were somehow mistaken in their attribution. On the other hand...

Another significant problem is encountered in attempting to determine which of the sources documenting psychic abilities are works of fiction, or at least unreliable and inaccurate, and which ones are not. Some might be obvious, but other instances are not quite so clear-cut. Any one of us can conduct an on-line search and, in very short order, find a site wherein some person lays claim to an ability that has all the appearance of something straight from the pages of a fantasy or science fiction novel. Are these individuals attempting to deceive us (or just themselves)? Should we dismiss their claims? And, if so, why their claims as opposed to anyone else's? Beyond the internet, which are the reliable and accurate sources? Religious and spiritual texts from every cultural tradition abound with tales of people who display what could be described as psychic abilities. Are these fictional accounts? All of them, or just some? On what criteria do you base this decision? In certain cases, psychic abilities that appear in works of fiction, while perhaps embellished for dramatic effect, are modeled after those claimed by people in the real world. Should these abilities, simply because they are mentioned in a work of fiction, be excluded out of hand (for example, telekinesis in Carrie versus pyrokinesis in Firestarter)? Do we only dedicate our attention to psychic abilities that are the focus of scholarly research and scientific experimentation? Does the metaphorical tweed jacket or lab coat automatically confer authority and credibility?

My only intention here is to highlight the difficulties inherent in undertaking to separate "fiction" from the "real world" when it comes to psychic abilities in order to better define the scope of the list, and, as a kind of disclaimer, let prospective readers know that there is some uncertainty with regards to telling the difference. The manner in which I tried to convey this idea in the lead paragraph might have come across as evincing some sort of personal bias or be perceived as an attempt to detract from or undermine the validity of the list itself, but nothing could be further from the truth. I do not want to influence other's beliefs one way or the other on the subject of psychic abilities, however I may feel about it myself. That said, I am totally open to suggestions for revising this particular contribution, if indeed it is an appropriate issue to raise in conjunction with the list.

I am also willing to discuss the rationale behind the other changes I made, and welcome your thoughts. I believe they are worthwhile and sincerely hope they will not be rejected in their entirety. Thank you. Apo-kalypso (talk) 08:05, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Did you have any objections to the changes I made to the body of the list, or was it only the lead paragraph that gave you cause for concern? Either way, I regret not contacting you and Ryan Paddy beforehand to propose and discuss these changes before implementing them. If nothing else, this incident has taught me to be more conscientious about editing WP articles. I was just wondering what I ought to do at this point, and would very much appreciate some guidance. Apo-kalypso (talk) 05:23, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Some replies

Verbal, this is not a battle worth fighting. That's not to say that you're right or wrong, just that it's not worth fighting about. If the template is being placed as a knee-jerk without any reasoning or discussion, then it's liable to be removed. If it's placed with good intent and with some good-faith effort to justify it, then it should remain throughout the discussion. If this common-sense approach is not being followed in practice, then please let me know. MastCell  05:26, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

I would agree with MastCell. "possibly disruptive" is too toothless to be worth arguing about -- removal of any template is "possibly disruptive" -- but no indication that the 'possibility' will pan out. In any case, I see no indication that the ARS's pronouncements are (even a putative) policy or guideline having authority on non-ARS-members. Further, ARSing an article appears to be a 'last desperate hope' in any case, so I see little point in attempting to police how absurdly far the desperation can extend. If they want to template articles that are WP:SNOW deletes (or even WP:SNOW keeps for that matter), it does us no real harm, and just makes them look silly. Hrafn_Stalk(P) 05:46, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Advice on WP policy

Hi Verbal. I have a question about WP policy, and I thought of asking you since you're an experienced editor and did welcome me to WP offering to help if I had questions. I have a disagreement with a user about whether a certain survey should be included in a page or not. The discussion is here. In short, the user added his own non-notable non-free book as a survey reference, which I object to since there are multiple free surveys written by the people who founded the field. What should I do in such a case? Was my response appropriate? Should I remove the reference again after the user has reinserted it? --Robin (talk) 14:45, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

I've asked him to justify the addition on the talk page, and removed it pending some good reasons. I also made a suggestion for expanding the article. Verbal chat 16:18, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. --Robin (talk) 17:00, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Hi Verbal,

I delivered my reply to your post, about including my book on quantum walks in the survey section of Misplaced Pages article on quantum walks, here. I do not mean to pressurize or be taken as pushy, I just want to make sure you know that my answer is already in the quantum walk talk page.

Best regards,

Salvador

Salvador.venegas (talk) 23:10, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

FYI edit warring report

You have been reported for edit warring here Off2riorob (talk) 20:24, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Human disguise

You were edit warring on that page. Don't do it again. Eventually warnings run out and defenses that one side or the other is wrong won't avail you. On top of that, it's an exceptionally stupid thing to edit war over. My advice is, when more than one person reverts you, it is time to leave the discussion. Go have a smoke or a coffee or "tea" or "cookies" or whatever notional cool-off periods you dig as a wikipedian. It beats being forced into discussions like that and/or being blocked. Protonk (talk) 00:01, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Why?

Would you mind much explaining why you deleted my comments to you on this about about your comments to me? I don't understand? Abdul Faisel (talk) 20:27, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

I deleted because I read them, and you should put your comments on the article talk. Thanks, Verbal chat 21:17, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

AfD nomination of Denialism

An article that you have been involved in editing, Denialism, has been listed for deletion. If you are interested in the deletion discussion, please participate by adding your comments at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Denialism (2nd nomination). Thank you.

Please contact me if you're unsure why you received this message.

AfD nomination of Alternative HIV Viewpoints

It is my understanding that when an article has been nominated for deletion, that the article must not be blanked pending the outcome. 7 Days I think? Neuromancer (talk) 11:49, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Blanking means removing all content or content that is supported by policy and RS. I think the removals improve the article, which will likely be deleted anyway. Note that enforcing policy (both correctly or incorrectly) does not exempt an editor from 3RR. Verbal chat 11:51, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Your revert

This revert diff seems unjustified to me. PBS posted on the talkpage and you did not reply, then reverting the edit using twinkle and stating that he requires "consensus" seems to dismiss the fact that nobody objected to these changes. If you want to discuss this change, do so, but don't just revert and gesture in the direction of the talkpage. Tim Vickers (talk) 23:01, 5 November 2009 (UTC)