Revision as of 17:46, 15 October 2009 editSimonm223 (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users14,960 edits →Unthinking vandalism of cited material by User:Ckatz & User:Ruslik0← Previous edit | Revision as of 17:49, 15 October 2009 edit undoSimonm223 (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users14,960 edits →Unthinking vandalism of cited material by User:Ckatz & User:Ruslik0Next edit → | ||
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:There's a link in the supplied diff that points to the vandalism comment, iirc.--] (]) 17:09, 15 October 2009 (UTC) | :There's a link in the supplied diff that points to the vandalism comment, iirc.--] (]) 17:09, 15 October 2009 (UTC) | ||
::The difference link pointed to another editor replying to a (supposed) vandalism comment but does not appear to include CKatz mentioning vandalism. I'll take another look in case I missed something. ] (]) 17:46, 15 October 2009 (UTC) | ::The difference link pointed to another editor replying to a (supposed) vandalism comment but does not appear to include CKatz mentioning vandalism. I'll take another look in case I missed something. ] (]) 17:46, 15 October 2009 (UTC) | ||
::Yeah, difference link does not include CKatz using the word "vandalism" or any variant therein. Still don't know why this is relevant since the only person accusing anybody of vandalism right now is HarryAlffa. ] (]) 17:48, 15 October 2009 (UTC) | |||
== ] and 92.11.217.30 == | == ] and 92.11.217.30 == |
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Request for uninvolved administrator to close a slightly messy RfC
will spiral out of control if it is not ended soon. Thanks, Dabomb87 (talk) 00:18, 10 October 2009 (UTC)
- Jake, could you offer some commentary? I don't think it's an outrageous request to let the RfC end of its own accord. The debate seemed to be making some progress despite certain disruptions. And on handling said disruptions, any advice would be appreciated. Doctor Sunshine (talk) 04:24, 10 October 2009 (UTC)
- I saw a lot of discussion and no chance of getting the criteria removed. There is consensus to close the RfC in the last section. Please just let it die. — Jake Wartenberg 13:25, 10 October 2009 (UTC)
- Look, I'm not enjoying this either. I can understand that the FLC regulars are tired of it, I've seen arguments going back to 2006, but the fact of the matter is that the RfC was opened to get community input. The regulars have had years to figure it out where the community received less than ten days. And this sets a very bad precedent when five oppose votes—all regulars too, I believe—can shut down an argument which closes in their favour. Forget every other argument, forget that criteria 5 contradicts the last part of 5a, forget that there is community consensus stating that red links are good and none labeling them "ugly" or "distracting". I will let this matter drop if you or anyone can show me that there is a consensus that minimal means definition 1c and not a or b. Going through the FLC logs I've seen about half a dozen regulars that oppose based on red links and everyone else either doesn't care or reads it the same way I do. Maybe Dabomb can confirm that as his name appeared quite frequently. Otherwise, I would ask that you reopen or restart the RfC, possibly with a reminder of its purpose—even the FLC director seemed confused about it. I'm sorry that it's "messy" but I didn't ask regulars to repeat themselves ad infinitum, or to attack my character or insult newcomers. A couple more days isn't going to hurt anybody. Doctor Sunshine (talk) 22:19, 10 October 2009 (UTC)
- I saw a lot of discussion and no chance of getting the criteria removed. There is consensus to close the RfC in the last section. Please just let it die. — Jake Wartenberg 13:25, 10 October 2009 (UTC)
Requesting a second opinion. The editors asking for a close are "tired of the debate", the debate is long and muddled, this is not a recipe for "spinning out of control", this is a recipe for fizzling out. The ones who wanted it closed are young and don't listen to me as I'm "the enemy" but they respect authority and an admin will do. If you could reopen with a note briefly explaining the purpose of an RfC and why more than a week is desirable (honestly don't think they're familiar with the process) and as soon as comments dry up I'll close it myself an you'll never have to think of this again. I'd like a few more days as the subject of compromise and clarifying the wording had come up which had been little commented on previously. In my opinion, most had got hung up on stubs. It may well get zero new comments, that's fine and I'll close, but shutting it down early because a couple editors who voiced their opinions before the RfC even started and don't want to wait for more than a week of outside opinions is a bad idea. Thanks. Doctor Sunshine (talk) 19:20, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
- "The ones who wanted it closed are young and don't listen to me as I'm "the enemy" but they respect authority and an admin will do..." what? If you tried not to patronise the community so much, people may respect your arbitrary re-opening of this RFC at FLC and your arbitrary re-opening of this AN/I thread, on both occasions without notifying the closing admins. Think again if you believe we're all "young" and we "don't listen to ". The overwhelming and startlingly obvious consensus was that there was no consensus to change our criteria. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:18, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
- That was bluntness, I wrote that on my way out the door. Excitable would have been a better word. If you're familiar with WP:Requests for Comment, you'll know that the purpose is to get community input in the form of opinions, ideas and dispute resolution. Not everyone checks the RfC lists every day, so leaving them open for a couple weeks at minimum is par for the course. If a handful of regulars are tired of the debate—why wouldn't they be if the issue has been coming up again and again for years?—they are not required to participate. They've stated their opinion, it's been counted, they're free to go about their business. The discussion is so muddled by this point with the interruptions and that bout of infighting at the end that it may well not get anymore comments, but there might also be a good idea out there somewhere. If no action is taken by tomorrow I'll cut through the red tape myself. I can only assure you that this is not a big deal. A week or two from now this'll all be ancient history. Doctor Sunshine (talk) 16:25, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
- I'll have to agree here. The use of the word "consensus" in this case means the personal opinions of a very small number of FLC regulars-- possibly the ones who wrote the criteria. They are simply against changing the red link criterion, and have themselves become weary of the discussion, apparently, because so many "outsiders" fail to come to their own personal view. There are many editors who disagree with this, but who do not have Doctor Sunshine's persistence. Myself, I have seen commenting at this RfC to be futile, and so have limited my to making a few snide comments and leaving. Like many editors outside of the very small FLC "regulars", I am opposed to this criterion. It foists the personal preference of a very few Misplaced Pages editors onto the project at large. But I see that it would be a waste of editing time to argue the point there. So, is this how Misplaced Pages Guidelines and Criteria are run? By a very small group of "regulars" (read:"owners") who circle the wagons whenever an outside opinion is offered, and shut down the discussion as quickly as possible, before any other "outsiders" can join in? Obviously, yes it is... And this is the reason this sort of RfC gets so little input from the majority of Misplaced Pages, to the harm of the project at large. Dekkappai (talk) 17:47, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
I've reopened the RfC and explained the process there as well. Second opinion request rescinded unless anyone feels the need. Doctor Sunshine (talk) 23:37, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- This is getting a bit silly now. Can we stop continually overturning admin's actions? The Rambling Man (talk) 10:23, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- I don't believe I did overturn an admin's actions. Why was my edit silly? --JD554 (talk) 11:14, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- I was referring to Doc Sunshine and the continual reversions. Apologies for not being clear! Your edit summary summed it up nicely... The Rambling Man (talk) 17:33, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Ah, I see. Thanks for the clarification. --JD554 (talk) 18:49, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- I was referring to Doc Sunshine and the continual reversions. Apologies for not being clear! Your edit summary summed it up nicely... The Rambling Man (talk) 17:33, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- I don't believe I did overturn an admin's actions. Why was my edit silly? --JD554 (talk) 11:14, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
Let's just keep dragging this out then. Second opinion request reinstated. If you want to save yourself some time, the last section of the RfC contains the shut down request. The opposing view is that community input is a good thing and should be allowed to proceed whether or not a handful of editors are tired of the debate . Doctor Sunshine (talk) 19:41, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Hmm, well since you have reverted the action of two admins without bothering to tell either of them I would suggest that you should stop dragging it out. Cheers. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:56, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Doctor Sunshine, with the greatest of respect, I really think it's time to move on. --JD554 (talk) 20:00, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Irrelevant half truths, Rambling man. Respectfully, even admins make mistakes. Doctor Sunshine (talk) 20:10, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Could you clarify why your reversions of two admins actions are both "irrelevant" or "half truths"? You were asked to let me know that you'd reverted my closure (although you didn't have the courtesy to tell me that you were discussing me and my "confused" state here), I had to let Jake know you had reverted his closure here, and then you're back here claiming we're all "young" and we "don't listen" to you. Enough is enough. Move on, please. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:06, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Relax. You're talking about formalities, you were both watching the relevant pages as one would have assumed. "The consensus is that there's no consensus" (??) is not a good reason to shut down a discussion. I've had my say, you've had yours, there is no harm in giving the community adequate time to volunteer theirs. I'm sorry if you're offended by being called "young" but try not to take this so personally; it's not about you, it's about community input. That's all. Doctor Sunshine (talk) 22:39, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Could you clarify why your reversions of two admins actions are both "irrelevant" or "half truths"? You were asked to let me know that you'd reverted my closure (although you didn't have the courtesy to tell me that you were discussing me and my "confused" state here), I had to let Jake know you had reverted his closure here, and then you're back here claiming we're all "young" and we "don't listen" to you. Enough is enough. Move on, please. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:06, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Irrelevant half truths, Rambling man. Respectfully, even admins make mistakes. Doctor Sunshine (talk) 20:10, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
Template removal & incivility...
Restored from archive... - Adolphus79 (talk) 03:32, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
Back on September 20, 2009, Chao19 (talk · contribs) was blocked for removing article maintenence templates and incivility. He was removing {{fact}}, {{refimprove}}, and {{references}} templates from assorted Creed articles... he was given fair warning, and his only replies the the warnings were that no references were needed and I was an asshole for restoring the templates. After the block, that user was inactive for a while, although there were one or two IPs (67.167.33.47 (talk · contribs) and possible others) that continued the pattern, even going so far as to continue the incivility on my user talk page (this and the following half dozen revisions)... within a minute of the IP's last comment, Chao19 had logged in, and replied to his own IP comment (Chao19's first edit since the block)... Since that edit, the IP has not made any further edits, and Chao19 has continued the incivility and removal of maintenence templates without reason... I filed a report at AIV, and was going to file a report at SSP, but was told it would be better brought to ANI...
It is obvious that the IP is a sock of Chao19, and it is also obvious that Chao19's original block did nothing to change his editing habits... his counter-productive editing and harassment of other users has become more than an average bother to me, and I would like someone else to look into this... - Adolphus79 (talk) 22:50, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
- Yes this behavior is pretty bad. Comments like "Why do you expect everything to be referenced? Jesus.." leave me with doubt that this person has the willingness to comply with Misplaced Pages's most basic editing rules. If this was a new editor I would suggest that a person have a talk with them about the necessity of verifiability but seeing that they've been an active editor for over 9 months with over 600 edits I'd consider any ignorance of rules at this point to be willful. -- Atama頭 19:21, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- For the last month I have tried to explain this to him, and have been met with nothing but stubborness and incivility every step of the way... I just sat down to find his latest revelation, "And from what ive seen over the year and a half ive been on here, your the only once who truly gives a flying fuck about the unreferenced stuff."... Anyone that takes a look at my conversation with him so far, will see that this guy obviously does not care about Misplaced Pages's policies, and plans to continue doing what he wants with no regard for them. Add to that the incivility, and you've got the makings of someone who (while not a blatent vandal) will do nothing but cause harm to the project in the end... - Adolphus79 (talk) 04:04, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- Although, I am still looking forward to my Worst Admin Ever award... LOL - Adolphus79 (talk) 04:26, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
Deleting talk comments
Delicious carbuncle (talk · contribs) has made good on a threat to begin deleting my talk page comments . Nothing I have posted on the talk page comes even remotely close deserving to be deleted as per WP:TALKNO. I had suggested that we seek arbitration or mediation to resolve a dispute over the content of an article, but this suggestion was deleted.--Dbratland (talk) 23:26, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
- Huh. If I were Delicious carbuncle, I would have just stopped responding to you in that particular section of the talk page, and merely ensured that anything put into the article itself was within policy. While I disagree with what I opine are hair-splitting statements over a minor facet of a minor topic, I don't think this should have been forcibly removed from the article talk page. Tan | 39 23:31, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
- Other than me simply giving in, I would appreciate any suggestions on how to resolve this dispute without any more drama.--Dbratland (talk) 23:40, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
- There are several options available to you; see Misplaced Pages:Dispute resolution. IMHO, your best bet might be to post a neutrally worded request at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Motorcycling for people to drop by and give their opinion. Technically, you've got 3 opinions already, but you could bend the rules slightly and request a fourth at WP:3O. It seems there is some question on reliability of sources; you could ask for input on that particular issue at WP:RSNB. I think if everyone involved tries hard to compromise, instead of insist that they're right, you'd all be able to come up with a compromise wording. Arbitration is not an option; the ArbCom only deals with user conduct, not content issues, and anyway thinks have to get a lot worse than this before you'd want to even think about heading there. --Floquenbeam (talk) 23:50, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
- I don't think it's proper for one person to remove the talk page comments of another involved in the same dispute. I've therefore reverted the removal. No opinion on whether or not the discussion really needs to continue, but this manner of forcing it to end seems improper. As Tan said, the other parties could have simply stopped responding, which would have been the way to go. WP:Just drop it. Equazcion (talk) 00:32, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- I already tried WP:RSNB and Motorcycling -- we only have about 5 active members, and I'm the only one with a morbid fascination with the motorcycle gang articles, in spite of their overwhelming popularity over articles about actual motorcycles. So I'll see what WP:3O can do. The reason I don't want to drop it is not because I care one way or another about what is said about motorcycle gangs. I do care about being able to write and maintain the articles in the scope of the Motorcycling Project, and if you're not allowed to say "outlaw" can include a non-criminal subculture, then you have to throw out two thirds of the books and journal articles on the subject, and all you have to work with are police press releases and unreliable true crime books. It's easier to write articles if you are allowed to cite all authorities, not just some.--Dbratland (talk) 00:48, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- Just for the record, I wasn't telling you to drop it, Dbratland. I was saying that if your opponents wanted to end the discussion, they only needed to stop responding to you. That's what WP:JDI is about. I haven't read through your dispute in detail but I'll have a look and comment if I can. Equazcion (talk) 00:54, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- Yes, I realize what you meant. I just wanted to vent, I guess.--Dbratland (talk) 02:29, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- Just for the record, I wasn't telling you to drop it, Dbratland. I was saying that if your opponents wanted to end the discussion, they only needed to stop responding to you. That's what WP:JDI is about. I haven't read through your dispute in detail but I'll have a look and comment if I can. Equazcion (talk) 00:54, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- I already tried WP:RSNB and Motorcycling -- we only have about 5 active members, and I'm the only one with a morbid fascination with the motorcycle gang articles, in spite of their overwhelming popularity over articles about actual motorcycles. So I'll see what WP:3O can do. The reason I don't want to drop it is not because I care one way or another about what is said about motorcycle gangs. I do care about being able to write and maintain the articles in the scope of the Motorcycling Project, and if you're not allowed to say "outlaw" can include a non-criminal subculture, then you have to throw out two thirds of the books and journal articles on the subject, and all you have to work with are police press releases and unreliable true crime books. It's easier to write articles if you are allowed to cite all authorities, not just some.--Dbratland (talk) 00:48, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- I don't think it's proper for one person to remove the talk page comments of another involved in the same dispute. I've therefore reverted the removal. No opinion on whether or not the discussion really needs to continue, but this manner of forcing it to end seems improper. As Tan said, the other parties could have simply stopped responding, which would have been the way to go. WP:Just drop it. Equazcion (talk) 00:32, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- There are several options available to you; see Misplaced Pages:Dispute resolution. IMHO, your best bet might be to post a neutrally worded request at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Motorcycling for people to drop by and give their opinion. Technically, you've got 3 opinions already, but you could bend the rules slightly and request a fourth at WP:3O. It seems there is some question on reliability of sources; you could ask for input on that particular issue at WP:RSNB. I think if everyone involved tries hard to compromise, instead of insist that they're right, you'd all be able to come up with a compromise wording. Arbitration is not an option; the ArbCom only deals with user conduct, not content issues, and anyway thinks have to get a lot worse than this before you'd want to even think about heading there. --Floquenbeam (talk) 23:50, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
- Other than me simply giving in, I would appreciate any suggestions on how to resolve this dispute without any more drama.--Dbratland (talk) 23:40, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
- Let me briefly outline what is happening on here. Dbratland has split Outlaw motorcycle club from Motorcycle club. He has then selectively edited out references which suggest that "outlaw motorcycle club" is synonymous with "outlaw motorcycle gang". (Note that Motorcycle gang is a redirect to this article). Dbratland has inserted references to support his position that there is a distinction between non-criminal "outlaw motorcycle clubs" and allegedly criminal "motorcycle gangs", which is a distinction not supported by news media or law enforcement references. As you will see in this edit from Talk:Outlaw_motorcycle_club, he has misrepresented the positions of some of the references he seeks to use. Similarly, in this discussion WP:RSN#Sources for special meaning of the word "outlaw", he twice misquoted a source and failed to corrct his mistakes when they were pointed out to him. The WP:RSN discussion is the precursor to the one on the talk page and is similarly a discussion about the specific application of the word "outlaw".
- Dbratland wants to debate whether or not outlaw bikers should be considered criminals. This is a philsophical debate and Misplaced Pages is not the place for it. He has been asked, clearly and politely, to stop using the talk page as a soapbox, but has persisted. As evidenced by this concurrent discussion at , Dbratland has a specific agenda and decidedly not neutral point of view with these articles. He seems to be what is generally called a "polite POV pusher" or tendentious editor. There is no reason to allow him to use the talk page as a soapbox. I reverted his comments per WP:TALK on that basis, after telling him that I would do so. 01:45, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- I've responded on the article talk page, which I think is the more appropriate venue. Equazcion (talk) 02:06, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- If anyone cares to wander over to that talk page, they will see more of the same. I wouldn't mind a hand explaining the basic use of sources. Thanks. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 09:52, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- DC, I think the other editor understands entirely about sources, and you should perhaps be a little less aggressive about assuming good faith. It would appear that other arrivals at the talk page are sympathetic to the other viewpoint. Elen of the Roads (talk) 09:59, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- You think the editor understands the use of sources? "In reading Drewery, do you detect in there any hints that perhaps the word "outlaw" has more than one meaning, depending on time, place, speaker, and context? I kind of think that point is in there somewhere". I disagree. And if you think he's simply being sarcastic, you are welcome to read the reference article in question. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 10:08, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- I'm seeing more of a closed-minded "Assume everyone else doesn't know what they're talking about" attitude from you, DC . Your stance has been rather combative from fairly early on. I'm pretty sure everyone else is just as frustrated as you. Please try to keep calm, and an open mind. Equazcion (talk) 17:36, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- I am calm and I don't know why you would assume otherwise. I do have an open mind, as evidenced by my repeated statements that I have no objection to including Dbratland's point of view (which, I note again, is already in the article). I'm not assuming that no one else knows what they are talking about. You certainly have assumed an awful lot from a one word answer. I haven't found your participation on the talk page very helpful thus far, but I welcome your help reviewing the sources that Dbratland has offered. Thanks. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 20:07, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- When you leave one-word answers, you leave people no choice but to make assumptions. Equazcion (talk) 20:17, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- I am calm and I don't know why you would assume otherwise. I do have an open mind, as evidenced by my repeated statements that I have no objection to including Dbratland's point of view (which, I note again, is already in the article). I'm not assuming that no one else knows what they are talking about. You certainly have assumed an awful lot from a one word answer. I haven't found your participation on the talk page very helpful thus far, but I welcome your help reviewing the sources that Dbratland has offered. Thanks. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 20:07, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- I'm seeing more of a closed-minded "Assume everyone else doesn't know what they're talking about" attitude from you, DC . Your stance has been rather combative from fairly early on. I'm pretty sure everyone else is just as frustrated as you. Please try to keep calm, and an open mind. Equazcion (talk) 17:36, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- You think the editor understands the use of sources? "In reading Drewery, do you detect in there any hints that perhaps the word "outlaw" has more than one meaning, depending on time, place, speaker, and context? I kind of think that point is in there somewhere". I disagree. And if you think he's simply being sarcastic, you are welcome to read the reference article in question. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 10:08, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- DC, I think the other editor understands entirely about sources, and you should perhaps be a little less aggressive about assuming good faith. It would appear that other arrivals at the talk page are sympathetic to the other viewpoint. Elen of the Roads (talk) 09:59, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- If anyone cares to wander over to that talk page, they will see more of the same. I wouldn't mind a hand explaining the basic use of sources. Thanks. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 09:52, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- I've responded on the article talk page, which I think is the more appropriate venue. Equazcion (talk) 02:06, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- I have repeatedly asked Delicious carbuncle (talk · contribs) to stop attacking me personally and to instead assume good faith on article Talk pages, but this person is adamant that they will not stop, in spite of multiple editors who agree that my posts are valid part of a content disagreement discussion. I think further action is warranted to put a stop to this behavior.--Dbratland (talk) 17:27, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- If you think I have made any personal attacks, please provide diffs. You and I agree that further action is warranted to put a stop to the problematic actions happening with motorcycle club articles. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 20:10, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- I won't bother providing diffs, because you'll just explain to me how, in each instance, they technically aren't personal attacks according to Policy. But add me to the list of people who think you need to assume a lot more good faith with Dbratland than you have been. Your combative attitude towards him, from the very beginning, has made this whole situation more difficult to resolve than it need have been. This isn't a patronizing civility warning, or something silly like that; it's one human telling another human that I think you're treating a third human with less respect than they deserve. --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:21, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- I'd welcome someone else with a kinder, gentler approach stepping in, but I don't see that happening. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 10:09, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- ...wait, why is Floquenbeam responding for Dbratland? I'm confused. — The Hand That Feeds You: 13:20, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- I have to say that I'm sympathetic to DC's point of view and I completely agree with him that the article needs to reflect what the sources say, whether or not the sources are being fair in someone's mind. But on the matter of removing talk page comments, I believe this needs to stop as Equazcion has stated. WP:TALK states that discussion of the article's subject on an article's talk page shouldn't be done unless the discussion is related to article improvement. The "philosophical discussion" that DC objects to is directly related, and stems from the discussion about the term "outlaw" and its meaning in the culture of motorcycle gangs. Removing such comments is in fact a violation of the very guideline that DC was linking.
- I won't bother providing diffs, because you'll just explain to me how, in each instance, they technically aren't personal attacks according to Policy. But add me to the list of people who think you need to assume a lot more good faith with Dbratland than you have been. Your combative attitude towards him, from the very beginning, has made this whole situation more difficult to resolve than it need have been. This isn't a patronizing civility warning, or something silly like that; it's one human telling another human that I think you're treating a third human with less respect than they deserve. --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:21, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- On a different note, at the risk of being called a "Wikilawyer" I have to state that I don't believe there were personal attacks made at the talk page of the article. Calling another editor "biased" can hardly be considered a personal attack, in fact WP:NPOV states that all editors have biases. Sometimes it is necessary to identify an editor's bias in a discussion, and to try to strike that down as a personal attack is counter-productive. The claim that Dbratland might be deliberately deceiving someone can certainly be interpreted as uncivil, but DC is only stating that he believes that Dbratland is misrepresenting the source, either by a lack of understanding or ill-intent. I might consider DC to be lacking some tact, but calling these reasonable challenges "personal attacks" is as much an attempt to shut down discussion as DC's removal of comments.
- Assuming that DC agrees to leave Dbratland's comments alone I don't see anything actionable at that talk page. Dispute resolution might be helpful however. -- Atama頭 19:47, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Accusing me of intentional deception is an attack on my character and an insult. There is a world of difference between lack of understanding and ill-intent. But perhaps I should not quibble, other than to note that I'm keeping score of the number of personal insults I've had to ignore since this began, and there are many.
- Assuming that DC agrees to leave Dbratland's comments alone I don't see anything actionable at that talk page. Dispute resolution might be helpful however. -- Atama頭 19:47, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- After having requested help at Talk:WikiProject Motorcycling, and the Reliable Sources Noticeboard, and having received three, or four, or five third-opinions, what does one do with an editor who has flatly refused to consider any of the half dozen compromises I've offered? He has never once offered a compromise of his own, and has instead insisted everyone who disagrees even slightly with him has no business even on the talk page, let alone touching the article. The one editor who agreed with him, HooperBandP (talk · contribs), dropped out of the discussion immediately upon Delicious carbuncle announcing the discussion was over and he was going to begin deleting comments. His threat of censorship worked, and he got away with it.
- I could try the Misplaced Pages:Fringe theories/Noticeboard or the Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard, but if this person doesn't get his way, he is going to announce that nobody but him knows what they are talking about and we're back where we started. I've gone to a lot of effort already and it gets tiresome to keep re-arguing the same thing only to end up going nowhere because the other party is unwilling to collaborate under any circumstances.--Dbratland (talk) 00:04, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- I am somewhat surprised by this latest post, since I've been trying to work with Dbratland on the talk page. I had hoped that we might get somewhere through discussion, but Dbratland seems impatient to insert something that doesn't seem to be supported by the references he cites. I've tried to get more editors involved through this discussion, but it hasn't worked. I hope to have time to work on the article later in the week, but that shouldn't stop Dbratland from taking this somewhere else. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 03:57, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- I could try the Misplaced Pages:Fringe theories/Noticeboard or the Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard, but if this person doesn't get his way, he is going to announce that nobody but him knows what they are talking about and we're back where we started. I've gone to a lot of effort already and it gets tiresome to keep re-arguing the same thing only to end up going nowhere because the other party is unwilling to collaborate under any circumstances.--Dbratland (talk) 00:04, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
Sockpuppet accusations
I have been accused of a sockpuppet but no case has been filed and I consider this a slur on my wiki-name. I have never been blocked or involved in sockpuppetry and I am concerned with how this will impact on my reputation. If no case is filed, can I remove it or ask for it to be removed?
What I also find disturbing about this is the editor who has added the report names two other editors who they say it could be - surely, editors cannot accuse multiple editors of being a sockpuppet and hope that one sticks? It looks like they wish to run a fish-tripping on multiple editors.
In addition, they deleted a reply of mine to that page where I noted that I had received an email about this matter to make it look like it was something I was trying to hide rather than someone I noted myself. --Cameron Scott (talk) 13:59, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- I removed it. You're BOTH (you and Benjiboi) admonished to put up or shut up regarding sockpuppet accusations and WP:BITEing. I totally agree that its likely that user is not a new user, but you have no basis for who they could possibly be a sock of. If they are a new user, you both bit them in an attempt to bully the other. If you can establish who they might be, you're free to bring a CU request but until then neither of you should reinstate those sock notices. Syrthiss (talk) 14:16, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- Yeah - I hold my hand up on that - and will offer my apologies to the user about that - my anger at the false accusation got the better of me and I should have known better. --Cameron Scott (talk) 14:17, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- It's clear this is - yet another - attempt at WP:Baiting me and it's unfortunate that Cameron Scott invests sooo much energy in following me around. I guess I should be honoured they are obsessed with me. -- Banjeboi 14:27, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
For the record, I don't particularly like having my good name thrown around by User:Benjiboi in all this as well. - Schrandit (talk) 14:35, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- For the record both you and Cameron Scott have continued to heap piles of bad faith on me and this claimed concern about your wiki-reputations rings quite hollow, actually. If you didn't support banned editors using anon socks, blanketing articles with {{COI}} and {{fact}} tags with apparently no interest but in deleting material you apparently don't approve and, possibly most chilling - defending attackers and murderers as unjustly accused of hate crimes against LGBT people - none of this would likely be going on. Instead, bolstered by Misplaced Pages Review you nip at my heels and throw muck at my work until you hope something sticks. Essentially you're playing the worst sort of game and playing the community for fools. If you don't approve/like/condone LGBT people and culture than work on some of the other three million articles. If you don't care for another editor? Then avoid them, don't continually target articles they work on when you obviously have little to no interest in them. In short, move on. Your actions are disruptive and are counter to building good content. You work will make or break your reputations. -- Banjeboi 14:48, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
This really isn't the place for more of the same vague accusations of bad faith that you have made previously and started this section. If you have a problem with my edits, I invite you to start a RFC and I'll be happy to stand on my record.Other well respected editors in the LGBT project have stated previously that they are happy with my edits and therefore I feel there is no case to answer. Otherwise I have no further comment to make here (as it only seems to encourage you in your accusations) unless invited to do so by an administrator or anyone else who is seeking answers. Otherwise I consider this matter resolved. --Cameron Scott (talk) 14:53, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- Sorry if that was too vague for you. Leave me alone, stop harassing me, stop accusing me of COI editing, stop trying to out me or whoever you think I am, stop WP:Wikihounding me. Hope that is more clear and we can all more on from here. -- Banjeboi 15:01, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- Benji, your edits have shown time and time again violations of policies and guidelines. Anyone has every right to scrutinize them, and hiding behind the flag of homophobia is against common decency and WP:AGF. Please strike your accusations, apologize to the user and move on. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs 15:07, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- Speaking of vague accusations. If you have some tangible concern of my "time and time again violations of policies and guidelines" please present them in a proper forum so some non-biased eyes might see what merit your concerns hold. I'm hardly hiding behind anything, homophobia exists on Misplaced Pages but most editors are willing to act civilly towards one another despite their beliefs. We don't suspend our civility in order to make a point or enforce some other policy. There is never a reason to harass other editors. -- Banjeboi 05:44, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
Anyone who knows Benjiboi's real name will see that this is an obvious attempt to annoy or harass him. While this shouldn't give Benjiboi license to accuse others of sockpuppetry, perhaps the account should be blocked. On the other hand, if Benjiboi was more open about his connections to the subjects that he edits, I suspect that the editors he accuses of being obsessed with him would find other things to do. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 15:52, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- Impressive sleuthing DC, that does put many a suspicion to rest. - Schrandit (talk) 19:08, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- It had already been raised in this discussion, where the putative conflict of interest was relevant. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 10:30, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- No comment on the other matters at play, but I have blocked the account indefinitely for harassment. –xeno 17:00, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- My connection was answered here. And even if it hadn't been answered there is never an excuse to harass other editors here. No matter someone's background they need to act civilly toward others or find another website to express their ideas. -- Banjeboi 05:44, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- So let's see if I understand this:
- At least as early as January 2008, Benjiboi is asked (during the first AfD for the now deleted bio of DJ Pusspuss) about his connection to DJ Pusspuss and Sister Kitty Catalyst O.C.P.
- In early September, the COI questions noted in the first AfD were brought up at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Sister Kitty Catalyst O.C.P.
- For the past two months, at this ANI thread, this WP:COIN thread, and a couple of AfDs, Benjiboi has steadfastly denied any conflict of interest in DJ Pusspuss, Sister Kitty Catalyst O.C.P., Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence, etc, etc
- Now that a diff from 2006 is produced in which Benjiboi states that he is "the archivist for the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence, Inc. in San Francisco" with the same email used by DJ Pusspuss, Sister Kitty Catalyst, and the freelance journalist who shell not be named, Benjiboi states that the diff "was made by someone else" using his account.
- It seems odd that after so much fuss, Benjiboi didn't earlier offer that "someone else" had used their account. And if "someone else" was responsible for the 2006 diff, it can only be assumed that the same "someone else" went back in May 2007 to remove only the email address from that comment.
- I am fully aware of WP:OUTING and I understand that editors may not wish to have their WP usernames connected to their real life identities, but at some point the presumption of good faith is overwhelmed by the evidence to the contrary. Benjiboi claims that because he edits LGBT articles he is at risk of becoming a victim of a hate crime. Since all of the personas in this mess (Sister Kitty, DJ Pusspuss, unnamed freelance journalist) are openly gay LGBT activists and "homo-propagandists" (their term, not mine), it is hard to see how this can be rationalized. Rather than simply avoid editing the articles where the "someone else" who used Benjiboi's account would have a conflict of interest, Benjiboi has edit warred and blustered about being harassed by accusations of COI. This has become a low-level but constant distraction and has now blossomed into actual harassment of Benjiboi by anon IPs and abusively named accounts.
- Ignoring the problem hasn't made it go away. Can we find some constructive way to deal with this issue, please? Delicious carbuncle (talk) 12:37, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Actually, despite - yet another - rehashing of this alleged problem you have shown a connection likely exists, it has been acknowledged. That is different than an actual problem, as has been pointed out out repeatedly. Yet you choose to dredge it all up again to publicly flog. Luckily we don't reward bad behaviour even if perpetrated by anon vandals bolstered by Misplaced Pages Review. The COIN thread, where apparently COI problems are reported, is rather explicit that our civility policies should not be swept aside in order to conduct witch-hunts. If you have any evidence of actual COI editing problems you can make your case there rather than enabling incivility of a handful of editors, some already shown to be socks of banned editors. I'll repeat my same admonishment - Delicious carbuncle please leave me alone. -- Banjeboi 03:35, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- I don't mean this in a snarky way, but I can't parse your first sentence. Can you please rephrase that? Delicious carbuncle (talk) 04:07, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- Actually, despite - yet another - rehashing of this alleged problem you have shown a connection likely exists, it has been acknowledged. That is different than an actual problem, as has been pointed out out repeatedly. Yet you choose to dredge it all up again to publicly flog. Luckily we don't reward bad behaviour even if perpetrated by anon vandals bolstered by Misplaced Pages Review. The COIN thread, where apparently COI problems are reported, is rather explicit that our civility policies should not be swept aside in order to conduct witch-hunts. If you have any evidence of actual COI editing problems you can make your case there rather than enabling incivility of a handful of editors, some already shown to be socks of banned editors. I'll repeat my same admonishment - Delicious carbuncle please leave me alone. -- Banjeboi 03:35, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
Unjustifiedly warned for vandalism
I have been warned for vandalism by a childish user who can't understand reasons, arguing that I'm adding unsourced information to an article, while the information I added is clearly sourced. What is the action to take in this situation? Thanks in advance. --uKER (talk) 14:32, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- I'm not seeing it. Could you provide a diff? --Smashville 14:59, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- This user is being warned by a user that has a strong opinion on the outcome/future of a movie. Uker has provided sources, the other user has retaliated with the reason that they are "right". The other user (Anesleyp) has not participated in discussion on the topic, while urged to many times. Just a passer-by's observation. Gpia7r (talk) 15:04, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- If you mean the diff to his warning, you can see it here. I find this specially aggravating if you consider that the template is aimed at newcomers and I got it from someone with less than 120 edits and less than 2 years in Misplaced Pages. Also worth mention is that the user put the warning in my page not by using the template, but by copy/pasting a warning from somewhere else and then editing it (see this). Also, you may find interesting that his user page is just a mashup of false information copied from other user pages, which results in it saying the user has 23000+ edits (which as I said he has less than 120), him living in both Florida and Washington, him belonging to Wikiprojects he doesn't actually belong to, and showing barnstars he hasn't earned. Numerous users, seeing he had copied information from their user page, have edited and even blanked it, but there's still a lot more. Also, the user keeps making judgements about me editing Misplaced Pages too much, which I find totally uncalled for (see this user page message and this edit summary). --uKER (talk) 16:00, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- First off, calling the user "childish" is a personal attack. Don't do it. Second, you're both behaving rather poorly. I suggest you seek dispute resolution on this issue. This isn't really a matter admins are going to worry about unless the two of you keep edit-warring. — The Hand That Feeds You: 13:36, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Hmm. After a quick look at the material associated with Anesleyp (talk · contribs) -- user page, edit history, talk page, etc. -- it appears this person is on the fasttrack to an indef block. RHaworth is attempting to explain to this user what can one can borrow from other user's pages for use on one's own user page -- & how to do this. From her/his Talk page archives, Anesleyp has had a difficult time understanding licensing concepts, & was blocked for 31 hours for this. Since there's an unspoken requirement that a certain level of maturity is needed to successfully contribute to Misplaced Pages, in this case I think it is fair to say this user is acting "childish"; a more mature contributor would either accept correction much more quickly, or at least not make these kinds of mistakes. A less kind explanation would be to say she/he is being intentionally disruptive. In any case, it's clear that Anesleyp needs to change her/his behavior or face the consequences. And that may involve Admin attention. -- llywrch (talk) 17:47, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- My saying he is acting childishly is due to him repeatedly reverting saying I'm adding unsourced information when it's perfectly sourced, his edit summaries being along the lines of "reverted, I'm right" and him making judgements about me editing too much. --uKER (talk) 18:11, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Hmm. After a quick look at the material associated with Anesleyp (talk · contribs) -- user page, edit history, talk page, etc. -- it appears this person is on the fasttrack to an indef block. RHaworth is attempting to explain to this user what can one can borrow from other user's pages for use on one's own user page -- & how to do this. From her/his Talk page archives, Anesleyp has had a difficult time understanding licensing concepts, & was blocked for 31 hours for this. Since there's an unspoken requirement that a certain level of maturity is needed to successfully contribute to Misplaced Pages, in this case I think it is fair to say this user is acting "childish"; a more mature contributor would either accept correction much more quickly, or at least not make these kinds of mistakes. A less kind explanation would be to say she/he is being intentionally disruptive. In any case, it's clear that Anesleyp needs to change her/his behavior or face the consequences. And that may involve Admin attention. -- llywrch (talk) 17:47, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- First off, calling the user "childish" is a personal attack. Don't do it. Second, you're both behaving rather poorly. I suggest you seek dispute resolution on this issue. This isn't really a matter admins are going to worry about unless the two of you keep edit-warring. — The Hand That Feeds You: 13:36, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- I've just read WP:NPA for the umpteenth time, and see nowhere in there any excuse for calling someone "childish", let alone the one provided above. We comment on edits, not editors. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 18:21, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
Page locked in error
Resolved – Unprotected, although WP:RFP is thataway (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 18:03, 14 October 2009 (UTC)- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.
The Polanski page was locked in error, admin was contacted, admitted it was in error - and then made up baseless reasons to justify his action rather than correcting himself. Discussion with the admin copied below, may also be found here:
- Why did you lock the Polanski article?
- On the contrary, I unlocked it. It was locked even harder before I came by today. --
- You may want to double check. This was 4 edits prior to your lock.
- Oh my... I think you're right... I didn't realize the edit part of the October 1 action had an expiration date. All the same, this article remains a target and it is a BLP, so longer-term semi-protection is appropriate. I won't self-revert, but you're welcome to raise the issue at WP:RFP.
1st, and perhaps most importantly - it is never appropriate to make a decision in error and then create a rationale. 2nd, there was nooooooooooooo IP vandalism or reverting of IP's. There is no basis for the lock, nor for the locking administrators intransigence in correcting his quite obvious and admitted error. 99.142.8.221 (talk) 14:57, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- Is there some reason not to take this to WP:RFP as suggested by the conversation? Admins who patrol that area will have the best knowledge of the appropriate action to take at the page. Whatever point you may have to make with the admin doesn't seem to rise to the level of an AN/I complaint. Frank | talk 15:04, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- Please take to RFP for a lil more discussion. I like it to be semi-protected, but perhaps ppl have other ideas. RFP is the venue. -- Y not? 15:07, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- There is no reason whatsoever to be engaged in an unreasonable run-around. The action was in error, the subsequent search for justification utterly baseless - there are precisely TWO IP edits over the last two days. (One on the 13th and one on the 12th.) 99.142.8.221 (talk) 15:11, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- As a past RFPP regular, I took a look. While it is more than likely that the page will be protected again, and soon, preemptive protection is against WP:PP and thus I fully unprotected the page. I don't think the admin's reasons were "baseless"; I would bet a paycheck this gets vandalized within the hour - but I might be wrong, and policy dictates unprotection. Tan | 39 15:14, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- TY. Here are the two IP edits from the 13th and the one on the 12th. . 99.142.8.221 (talk) 15:16, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- As a past RFPP regular, I took a look. While it is more than likely that the page will be protected again, and soon, preemptive protection is against WP:PP and thus I fully unprotected the page. I don't think the admin's reasons were "baseless"; I would bet a paycheck this gets vandalized within the hour - but I might be wrong, and policy dictates unprotection. Tan | 39 15:14, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- There is no reason whatsoever to be engaged in an unreasonable run-around. The action was in error, the subsequent search for justification utterly baseless - there are precisely TWO IP edits over the last two days. (One on the 13th and one on the 12th.) 99.142.8.221 (talk) 15:11, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- The page has been previously protected due to excessive vandalism. At any rate, I unprotected it, but just a thought - try to not be as confrontational. Tan | 39 15:19, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- Point taken, my last response was written before I saw that you had unprotected - an edit conflict had occurred. (note too, that the original, full protection, was due to members) Also, my initial concerns were brought to the talk page in the kindest manner. 99.142.8.221 (talk) 15:28, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
Removing all my edits
Zen-in methodically removes all my edits without any discussion and insults me on talk pages. I would like to get some admin intervention against his brutal actions. See: Emitter-coupled logic, Transistor–transistor logic, CMOS, Differential amplifier, Negative impedance converter, Talk:Negative resistance, Negative resistance. Thanks. Circuit-fantasist (talk) 16:30, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- possible edit warring according to this and this. You are both good editors editing almost the same articles (Zain, Circuit ft). I suggest you both read wp:3RR. We are all good in what we think we are. if we meet other good people in our field, there is no guarantee that we shall agree on every subject. best to read wp:3rr. all the best mate. Ecoman24 (talk page) 16:56, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- I think somebody with more familiarity with the topic should review. Zen-in was told that he was mistaken in some of his assertions, but also that he could roll back all of CF's edits on Emitter-coupled logic. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 16:58, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- They seem to ve been in possible edit warring since FEBRUARY 2009. A good solution to need to be found. My suggestion still remains for both to understand WP:3RR. any fighting is not good and is not accepted at wiki. talk pages are not battle grounds. No one gets paid to contribute to wikipedia. we will never meet most editors we communicate to. They don't really matter in our day to day lives. Make peace for whatever the price, even lowering your integrity, do it. you will loose nothing. Ecoman24 (talk page) 17:14, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- There has been a lot of discussion concerning CF's non-stop edits to electronics pages. Once CF starts editing a page he is like a pit bull and will not let go of it. If anyone tries to edit the same page he will revert the edits and/or complain to admin. After 50-150 edits, with no other contributions, he will move on to another page, to do the same. There are many editors who completely disagree with his way of presenting electronics because the result is confusing to read. A few months ago we went through all of this with Negative resistance. I and several other editors completely re-wrote this page. I believe that maintaining the quality of Misplaced Pages articles is more important than letting everyone's edits stand.Zen-in (talk) 17:27, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- If you scrutinize my contributions, you will see that all my insertions are accompanied with concrete summaries and comprehensive explanations on the according talk pages about the root of the matter. I have been inviting many times Zen-in and other wikipedians responsible to these pages to join discussions. Conversely, if you examine all Zen-in's contributions, you will see that, as a rule, his edits are not equipped with accompanying explanations on the talk pages. Instead, his comments on talk pages are full with personal attacks, insults (e.g., "pit bull":) and offensive characteristics directed mainly against me. I have not ever managed to discuss in essence the contents of these pages with Zen-in. So, I begin restoring sentence-by-sentence my edits (removed by Zen-in) commenting all my insertions on the according talk pages and inviting Zen-in to discuss them. Circuit-fantasist (talk) 18:53, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- CF you should not take the criticism of your edits as a personal attack. Several other editors have stated to you that your writing is unsuitable for publication on Misplaced Pages, as it relies heavily on your personal opinions and insights (i.e, it is original research). Unfortunately there is a noticeable degradation in the quality and readibility of pages you have extensively edit, at the exclusion of others. You should not take this observation as a personal insult and you should be used to hearing it by now.Zen-in (talk) 19:01, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- Hrm, do we have an issue with self-promotion, conflict of interest here? I note a recent tussle over links to wikibooks, e.g. b:Circuit Idea/Revealing the Mystery of Negative Impedance, which all seems to point back to www.circuit-fantasia.com. Tarc (talk) 19:16, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- User talk:Zen-in, this statement (Once CF starts editing a page he is like a pit bull and will not let go of it) is/could be interpreted as a personal attack. please, avoid using such statement. they don't help to solve a problem. You both have valid points, defending your actions. You have both made some good contributions to wiki. best thing you can do both is to compromise, not fighting any more. one of you will need to step back. you will loose nothing. worse scenario is, one or both of you may be disciplined. I don't want to see that. you are both veteran editors. Hope you can both compromise. may some one add a section called compromise below. Thank you. This case may also be a content dispute. Ecoman24 (talk page) 20:30, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- Is this better? Once CF starts editing a page he will not let other's modify it. If you look at the history of the pages listed in CF's initial complaint you will see they all have long unbroken periods when CF edited them. The root of the problem is CF's use of Misplaced Pages to promote his university's alternative method of describing electronic circuits, as noted by Tarc. A good example of this can be found on the Negative differential resistance page. This is what CF's edits eventually become. CF's edits promote original, unverified research. I have had the good fortune to have studied electronics at a very good university and I have worked as an electronic and computer engineer for many years. I think every editor and administrator on Misplaced Pages owes it to the users of Misplaced Pages to maintain the highest quality and readibility of its technical pages. Sometimes that means rolling back one person's edits so that an earlier, well written article is restored. CF has been told in the past, by more experienced editors than I, that he should confine his alternative pedagogical method to his own personal pages because it is WP:OR and WP:POV. As much as I would like to compromise I cannot because to do so would be to participate in CF's conflict of interest.Zen-in (talk) 21:12, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- Thank you zain. thank you also Tarc for that information. Zain and CF, You are both here to find a long lasting solution. I see, you have been warring since february. i see that you are not willing to compromise. would you suggest a solution to this problem, (up to five bullet points, if you don't mind). Circuit-fantasist, could you also do the same. consider your friend in drafting the solution. Thank you guys. Ecoman24 (talk page) 21:28, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- We have not been edit warring since February. I, along with several other editors re-wrote Negative resistance page, against CF's objections. Since then I have not done much editing on Misplaced Pages, while CF has done a lot. Before any talk of compromise should occur action should be taken on CF's conflict of interest. My edits have been directed to restore articles to their original quality whereas CF's have done the opposite. If this is not apparent to you maybe someone who has a better understanding of electronics should weigh in. I can suggest SpinningSpark, Secret Squïrrel, Rogerbrent, and Timberframe since they have dealt with this issue in the past. That is my offer of a compromise. Zen-in (talk) 21:51, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
A compromise suggested by:
This is my offer of a compromise to end any so-called edit warring between Circuit-fantasist and myself, Zen-in
- Circuit-fantasist to desist from editing any electronic articles on Misplaced Pages because of his long-standing WP:OR, WP:POV and WP:COI activities that have degraded the quality of many of these articles. He is welcome to edit other non-technical pages.
- Zen-in, with the help of other editors, will restore the numerous electronics pages edited by Circuit-fantasist to their earlier quality and will not revert or otherwise "edit-war" against Circuit-fantasist on the non-technical pages he does edit. Zen-in (talk) 22:44, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- Both Zen-in and Circuit-fantasist to stop editing any disputed article, ADMIN to protect pages mentioned below.
- In future, both Zen-in and Circuit-fantasist should not edit the same article more than twice in one week or revert the others contribution more than twice in two weeks. Any one doing so will be considered edit warring, and an initial 24hrs block may follow.
- Zain should not edit the following pages Emitter-coupled logic, Transistor–transistor logic,
- Circuit-fantasist not to edit the following pages Negative impedance converter, Operational amplifier applications,
- both of you not to edit the following pages CMOS
- Admin to to protect the following pages - Negative resistance
- Both of you should not use any PERSONAL ATTACK LANGUAGE, see WP:PA, strict rules may apply
- If you ever found in wanting to edit the same article, please step back, or discuss on the article talk page.
- YOU SHOULD AT NO TIME PUT DOWN your friends personal information on wikipedia. That may be considered HARASSMENT, see Misplaced Pages:PRIVACY#Posting of personal information.
I hope this is a neutral solution to the problem that will satisfy both veteran editors, contributing in the area where more editors are needed. Ecoman24 (talk page) 08:14, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- The above is agreeable to me. I can abide by these terms. Zen-in (talk) 16:57, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Please see the additional comments below. EyeSerene 17:18, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- I think you are painting the problem with an overly-broad brush. Zen-in needs to reign in the emotions a bit and adhere to WP:CIVIL, but I do not see a problem with his editing per se, as what he (and others) have been trying to do is keep Circuit-fantasist's self-published original research from weakening otherwise scientifically-valid articles. Again, I will point out www.circuit-fantasia.com as well as Circuit-fantasist; this person's general aim/goal is apparently to introduce science in "laymen's terms" for the Misplaced Pages, using his own diagrams and books. Circuit-fantasist is the one that should be kept away from scientific articles in general until he demonstrates an understanding and acceptance of basic editing policy. Perhaps WP:COIN would've been a better venue for this. Tarc (talk) 14:46, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- I broadly agree with Tarc. Zen needs to rein in their frustration, but I see the real issue as being Circuit-fantasist's editing methods and philosophy. They may indeed have some WP:COI issues, and certainly need to listen to advice from other editors. There also seems to be some misapprehension about what we're trying to build here; I wonder if Wikiversity might be more what they're looking for?
- One question - is there a clear consensus among our regular subject editors/experts in this area that the type of material Circuit-fantasist is introducing is unwelcome? EyeSerene 17:18, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- I am willing to go along with Ecoman24's compromise to keep the peace. My concerns with Circuit-fantasist's edits over the past year are expressed well by Tarc. I will not go into more detail for obvious reasons. The WP:COI needs to be addressed or this dispute will re-surface later on. Circuit-fantasist's statement below "you will see that he does not understand even the most elementary circuit concepts" speaks for itself. I recommend that Tarc and/or EyeSerene, since they
hashave been until now uninvolved, present the facts on WP:COIN. It is better that I not get further uninvolved in this at this point.Zen-in (talk) 20:05, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Why would I want to make a report at COI/N? I'm responding as an admin here :) I acknowledge that there's a probable COI issue, but that can be resolved easily enough if Circuit-fantasist keeps inserting links to their website or other promotional material (a number of options exist, including blocking the editor and, in extreme cases, blacklisting the site). There is, however, a WP:USERNAME issue that demands immediate attention, about which I've left Circuit-fantasist a note on their talk-page. I hope this, and the clear advice I've left below, will resolve the problem. If it resurfaces, feel free to drop a note on my talk-page (or post back here of course)... and where there are genuine content disputes, remember WP:BRD, keep calm, and follow the advice on WP:DR ;) EyeSerene 20:51, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- OK I understand the problem has been discussed here and there is no need for any further action right now. Is someone going to remove the Circuit idea links from
the above mentioned pagesNegative impedance converter, and Negative resistance? Zen-in (talk) 22:58, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- OK I understand the problem has been discussed here and there is no need for any further action right now. Is someone going to remove the Circuit idea links from
- Done. Tarc (talk) 00:31, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
A compromise suggested by Circuit-fantasist:
- Ecoman24, I comply on the whole with your recommendations and will do the following to resolve or to soften the conflict:
- I will revise my edits removed by Zen-in and will correct them if there is a need; then, I will place these texts first on the according talk pages to discuss them with wikipedians. I will invite Zen-in to discuss them and will await his answers. If he has adduced reasonable arguments, I will correct my edits again. Then, I will insert them in the main articles.
- I will place all my future edits on the according talk pages to discuss them first with wikipedians and will urge specially Zen-in to comment my insertions.
- I will equip my insertions with links to reputable sources if it is needed; but I won't do that if they are extremely clear, obvious and based on common sense.
- Ecoman24, I would like to say some words as a conclusion. I understand you; you have to extinguish the conflict. But please do not place Zen-in's work on the same level as my work; you make me feel pained. I do not mean the number of edits (240 versus 3206); I mean the content of edits. I am a creative person that has managed to reveal the basic ideas behind circuits and to present them in an attractive manner to readers. I have been continuously trying to find reputable sources presenting the circuits in the same manner; when I manage, I place links to them. If there are not such sources, I use clear, obvious and based on common sense explanations that are not original research. As you can see, the greatest part of Zen-in's contributions consists of cosmetic edits and removing else's insertions as a reaction to these "interventions" (imagine he has even wrecked my attempt to tidy up our discussion here thus mutilating it!!!) What is more, his assertions are frequently wrong (for example, if you dig over the old discussions about negative resistance, you will see that he does not understand even the most elementary circuit concepts). As a conclusion, while my mission in Misplaced Pages is to create, Zen-in's mission is to destroy the creation... Circuit-fantasist (talk) 19:20, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Firstly, Zen-in wasn't the one who re-factored this section, I was, because there was no need for sub-sub-headings cluttering up the contents list.
- Secondly, your undertaking to discuss edits before inserting them into articles is welcome. However, with all due respect for Ecoman24's well-intentioned intervention, I think what you need to take away from this is that your idea of what makes an attractive presentation to readers is not necessarily compatible with Misplaced Pages's mission as a serious encyclopedia, or the normal conventions of presenting such information, or the styles other editors have adopted over years of collaborative working in these areas. Your editing currently gives the impression that you're on a mission to advocate the www.circuit-fantasia.com approach. You should take a look at WP:NOT, particularly the sections on original thought and soapboxing. As I mentioned above, other websites, such as perhaps Wikiversity, might welcome your approach and your ideas... but please don't persist in using them here. EyeSerene 19:54, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Thank you for the response and for the advices. I have useful resources (circuit stories, pictures and flash movies) located on circuit-fantasia.com that can help understanding circuits; that is why I placed links to them a few years ago. Zen-in has removed all of them. Then I began creating Circuit idea wikibook and placed these links there. If they are the main problem, I will remove them from there as well. Circuit-fantasist (talk) 21:20, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Well, we have no involvement in wikibooks and what they allow or not. The problem seems to be with you putting links to there from articles here. Tarc (talk) 21:32, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Indeed - although Wikibooks is hosted on the Wikimedia Foundation servers, it's a completely separate site from Misplaced Pages with its own content inclusion criteria. I'm positive your work is a valuable addition to their corpus and very welcome there. However, it's important to understand that our mission on Misplaced Pages is to inform, not to instruct; it's a subtle difference, but I think all the difference in this case. Our guideline on external links is to keep them to a minimum of directly relevant material that wouldn't be found in the article text if the article was FA-standard. Since FA requires comprehensivity of its articles, this deliberately excludes almost everything :) It's true that many articles fall far short of this ideal and linkspam can sometimes get out of control, but the state of other articles isn't always a good guide to what is permissible. The sort of material that's ideal for an external link would be something like a copy of an important historical document that couldn't be reproduced in the article for reasons of space and perhaps copyright. An unsuitable link might be one that covers the same material as is in the article, even if from a different perspective. EyeSerene 16:59, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- Well, we have no involvement in wikibooks and what they allow or not. The problem seems to be with you putting links to there from articles here. Tarc (talk) 21:32, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Thank you for the response and for the advices. I have useful resources (circuit stories, pictures and flash movies) located on circuit-fantasia.com that can help understanding circuits; that is why I placed links to them a few years ago. Zen-in has removed all of them. Then I began creating Circuit idea wikibook and placed these links there. If they are the main problem, I will remove them from there as well. Circuit-fantasist (talk) 21:20, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
Linas, soapboxing on wikiprojects (and userpage)
Further information: ], and ]Linas (talk · contribs) is apparently soapboxing/forumshopping on his quest to lead a sort of coup against the "nasty, abusive people in admin roles." He posted his rant to WikiProject Computer Science, WikiProject Mathematics, and WikiProject Physics. I'm in the group of five admins who he feels slighted by. That's why I'm bringing it here.
(Context: Linas's request for arbitration, Linas's request for mediation) tedder (talk) 17:05, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) (Woops, entire section edit conflict - merging mine with the one above...) The meltdown of Linas (talk · contribs) continues. Fresh off his third block in a month for vicious tirades and personal attacks (see here and here), he has refactored his user page, basically ignored my request to take it down, and is now spamming his version of events at various noticeboards. There is another user subpage calling certain admins "fuck-brained idiots". Can an uninvolved admin (if there are any left) please counsel Linas regarding WP:USER, WP:CANVAS, WP:NPA, and any other policies that he is ignoring? Thank you. Wknight94 17:11, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- Working on it. Let me see what I can do, if anything. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 17:20, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- (e/c) I've removed or refactored the blatant personal attacks. Better than reaching for the block button, I think. Black Kite 17:23, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- Working on it. Let me see what I can do, if anything. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 17:20, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- Linas was right to raise the issue at Wikiproject physics. This is how I learned about his case. I think he raises a very serious issue that needs to be looked into. Count Iblis (talk) 17:21, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- I've removed that section completely from his user page. If it gets reinserted then full protection of the user page is the next step. He has been warned not to reinsert it. Mjroots (talk) 17:26, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- Sarek reinserted it (why? it's still in the page history). Count Iblis, why do you think it needs to be looked at on WikiProject Physics or via any other forumshopping? tedder (talk) 17:28, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- We have to separate the issue of Linas using inappropriate language here on wikipedia with the wider point he was making. I think Linas has the right to make the case he is making here and on the various wiki projects (but using decent language, of course). Count Iblis (talk) 17:31, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- Here is why I think WikiProject Mathematics should be interested: If we can get a 1 week block just for getting a bit too angry about such an incredibly stupid edit (not sure if that's exactly what happened, but that's how it looks to me right now), then that's a problem that needs fixing. Hans Adler 17:34, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- Sarek says he's restored it for now. I'll bow to his judgement then. Mjroots (talk) 17:37, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- I was hoping I could convince Linas to remove it himself. When it became clear that he wasn't interested in working with any of us, I re-removed it. Sorry, Mj, I was hoping that a demonstration of good faith would help matters, but no such luck. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 18:08, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- No problem Sarek, I'm new here and am still learning. If I get reverted it's no big deal. :-) Mjroots (talk) 18:31, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- So are we all. :-) --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 18:39, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- No problem Sarek, I'm new here and am still learning. If I get reverted it's no big deal. :-) Mjroots (talk) 18:31, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- I was hoping I could convince Linas to remove it himself. When it became clear that he wasn't interested in working with any of us, I re-removed it. Sorry, Mj, I was hoping that a demonstration of good faith would help matters, but no such luck. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 18:08, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- Sarek says he's restored it for now. I'll bow to his judgement then. Mjroots (talk) 17:37, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- Sarek reinserted it (why? it's still in the page history). Count Iblis, why do you think it needs to be looked at on WikiProject Physics or via any other forumshopping? tedder (talk) 17:28, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- I've removed that section completely from his user page. If it gets reinserted then full protection of the user page is the next step. He has been warned not to reinsert it. Mjroots (talk) 17:26, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- (Disclosure: I am also here because of Linas' message.) It appears that this whole situation was caused by this absolutely incredible edit by User:Aboutmovies. On first sight this looks like sneaky vandalism and an attempt to promote a new age publisher on a very technical mathematics page that is 100 % unrelated. I have never had any contact with User:Aboutmovies, but this seems to be a well-established user with a clear block log, so it's not hard to assume good faith. Which puts the edit into a different light: An extremely careless edit that happened to be one of the most stupid ones I have seen here. I am not commenting on what happened afterwards, because I am not familiar with it (yet). I would be grateful for links to all the relevant (archive) pages. I am particularly interested in reading Aboutmovies' explanation how this could happen innocently. Hans Adler 17:34, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- He wrote the Beyond Words Publishing article and was simply looking for places to link it from. He found one that was wrong and was reverted. That's about it. If every time anyone made an honest mistake, they were called an idiot and an asshole and a dick weed, we wouldn't have a lot of people left. Wknight94 17:39, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- I agree with your last sentence in principle, although there is also the dimension of creating a climate in which experts don't feel overrun by Randies. I don't think this block was a positive contribution to that. Here is an important point that I got wrong at first, and I suspect that Linas also got it wrong, a miscommunication that may well have led to all of this:
- Aboutmovies was reverted with a very clear edit summary that explained why he was wrong. He acknowledged this in his comment at . Afterwards he reformatted the citation in question with a strange edit summary ("assist the citation challenged") that can easily be misunderstood as the edit summary of what would have been a revert. But it wasn't. This edit was followed by another that can be understood as a template attack on the article.
- Most relevant pages seem to be linked from . It seems that Aboutmovies made a silly edit to 3 pages, was correctly reverted, and then there were serious communication problems. I believe a member of WikiProject Mathematics could have deescalated these, and I am not convinced this was an occasion for blocking. (Blocking this troll who re-did one of Aboutmovies' mistakes and then immediately ran to ANI to boast about it would have made more sense.) It takes two sides to create a Michael Kohlhaas, and it appears both sides were very eager to do so. Hans Adler 18:29, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- My explanation can be found at the ArbCom request under the "Statement by Aboutmovies". But for everyone here who somehow thinks this was vandalism or "sneaky vandalism" you really, really, really need to read WP:VANDALISM (we have a specific definition on Misplaced Pages), which is why I added that link to the original warning to this user. Secondly, since people have not apparently read the entire article on Beyond Words or the math (or physics?) article, a couple of points. First, with citations, under all the formats I know of, the pages come after the name of the publisher, which if you look at the article you will see "Beyond Words, pp. 123-456", thus why there was a mistake. As to the assertion about what the publishing company prints, the do not do New Age exclusively, they started out doing coffee table books, and they will print your own book for you for a fee (self-publishing) regardless of topic. So it is not exactly like they couldn't print this book in question, which in combination with the citation morass is why it got linked. Once it was reverted, there has never been any attempt by me to re-insert it (that would be vandalism). And (without reading whatever Linas has been writing since his original personal attack on me) I will say that expert editing is a noble concept, but then note I hope you math and science trained people would then never edit any article outside of your training, such as your local village or sports team or your local politician, etc. as you clearly would just be committing "sneaky vandalism", right? And as to eager to do so, note I never called anyone names, and I never asked anyone to block anyone. As to the anonIP, that is a long-term, sock puppetting, abusive editor that has been watching everything a certain set of editors does, and is not in anyway related to any of these discussion. Aboutmovies (talk) 18:47, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- To me, the overriding point is that Linas is the one that escalated from the cordial tone of disagreement and misunderstanding above straight to "fuck off asshole" and "get rid of fucking asshole admins like you". There really is no context that explains that away IMHO. He wasn't even part of the original discussion - just a third party at User talk:Pohta ce-am pohtit. Wknight94 19:00, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- For me the explanation is that the circumstances misled him into WP:ABF and he never got out of it. Hans Adler 19:15, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- Here's a direct link to Aboutmovies' statement at ArbCom. Katr67 (talk) 19:06, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- Aboutmovies, I should clarify that I would phrase some things differently now that I have understood that you didn't re-revert. By "both sides" in my last sentence I meant Linas and the admins dealing with the matter, not you at all. And I only mentioned the troll because I felt that it probably contributed to the last block, but wasn't blocked itself.
- Personally I consider your explanation convincing. But I think I can understand how Linas got into his train of thought. The idea that a serious maths book is published by a publisher known mainly for new age stuff is ridiculous, especially in this case (I can't blame you for not seeing this). And Springer Verlag is the largest scientific publisher worldwide, so that to all science types it was totally obvious who the real publisher was. I guess this made your attempts to explain how it happened sound disingenuous to Linas. That's really Linas' problem: he must understand that he was wrong about this crucial point. Hans Adler 19:15, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- To me, the overriding point is that Linas is the one that escalated from the cordial tone of disagreement and misunderstanding above straight to "fuck off asshole" and "get rid of fucking asshole admins like you". There really is no context that explains that away IMHO. He wasn't even part of the original discussion - just a third party at User talk:Pohta ce-am pohtit. Wknight94 19:00, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- My explanation can be found at the ArbCom request under the "Statement by Aboutmovies". But for everyone here who somehow thinks this was vandalism or "sneaky vandalism" you really, really, really need to read WP:VANDALISM (we have a specific definition on Misplaced Pages), which is why I added that link to the original warning to this user. Secondly, since people have not apparently read the entire article on Beyond Words or the math (or physics?) article, a couple of points. First, with citations, under all the formats I know of, the pages come after the name of the publisher, which if you look at the article you will see "Beyond Words, pp. 123-456", thus why there was a mistake. As to the assertion about what the publishing company prints, the do not do New Age exclusively, they started out doing coffee table books, and they will print your own book for you for a fee (self-publishing) regardless of topic. So it is not exactly like they couldn't print this book in question, which in combination with the citation morass is why it got linked. Once it was reverted, there has never been any attempt by me to re-insert it (that would be vandalism). And (without reading whatever Linas has been writing since his original personal attack on me) I will say that expert editing is a noble concept, but then note I hope you math and science trained people would then never edit any article outside of your training, such as your local village or sports team or your local politician, etc. as you clearly would just be committing "sneaky vandalism", right? And as to eager to do so, note I never called anyone names, and I never asked anyone to block anyone. As to the anonIP, that is a long-term, sock puppetting, abusive editor that has been watching everything a certain set of editors does, and is not in anyway related to any of these discussion. Aboutmovies (talk) 18:47, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- He wrote the Beyond Words Publishing article and was simply looking for places to link it from. He found one that was wrong and was reverted. That's about it. If every time anyone made an honest mistake, they were called an idiot and an asshole and a dick weed, we wouldn't have a lot of people left. Wknight94 17:39, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
Does it help improve the encyclopedia to continue dogpiling on a constructive but testy editor? No? So why can't we just let him rant a little and stop helping him prove his point. —David Eppstein (talk) 20:29, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- Personally, I'd like some assurance that if a brand new math genius editor makes an edit to one of Linas's articles, but misspells something, he won't be called a "fuck brained idiot" and consequently leave the site permanently. Maybe you can handle that, and so can many others, but we can't ascribe tolerance for such immaturity to every new editor. There's no reason for it. Wknight94 21:32, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- David makes a good point. Paul August ☎ 13:24, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Having looked over the history of this meltdown, I disagree with David. Linas is too far gone at this point to simply give him his head. I admit I've thought a lot of things he has written -- not against the people he mentions, please note -- but when I get to that point of frustration & disillusion the only solution is to take a long break from this place. In his case, he needs either a voluntary or enforced WikiBreak until he decides to act civilly again. And even if Misplaced Pages has degraded into a corrupt system that is producing increasingly unreliable content, the problem will be solved by our users voting with their feet -- which is a more efficient solution than foul-mouthed rants & personal attacks. -- llywrch (talk) 18:30, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- What I find disturbing is the idea that there are "Linas's articles" on Misplaced Pages. Is he allowed to own them? (And if so, how much is the going rate for a nice stub?) -- Atama頭 20:00, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Having looked over the history of this meltdown, I disagree with David. Linas is too far gone at this point to simply give him his head. I admit I've thought a lot of things he has written -- not against the people he mentions, please note -- but when I get to that point of frustration & disillusion the only solution is to take a long break from this place. In his case, he needs either a voluntary or enforced WikiBreak until he decides to act civilly again. And even if Misplaced Pages has degraded into a corrupt system that is producing increasingly unreliable content, the problem will be solved by our users voting with their feet -- which is a more efficient solution than foul-mouthed rants & personal attacks. -- llywrch (talk) 18:30, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- David makes a good point. Paul August ☎ 13:24, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
A little Clue to those who are going to User talk:Linas and suggesting Citizendium: Citizendium policy in this area is unequivocal and clear. Had Linas made edits such as this, this, this, or this at Citizendium, xe would have been immediately and permanently banned from the project (even if Citizendium were giving second chances, since Linas made this edit back in 2007). Citizendium does not want this sort of thing. Yes, there's irony in someone who wants things done the way that they are at Citizendium acting in a way that at Citizendium would have xem thrown out on xyr ear in short order. Uncle G (talk) 02:43, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Yes, of course. However, at CZ this scandal would not start, since CZ people tend to be less bold than careful, and to first propose a change on the talk page (unless correcting an evident mistake). Boris Tsirelson (talk) 12:21, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
Personal Attack by Urban XII
Hello, I am having some problems with Misplaced Pages user Urban XII. The editor replied to one of my edits with a personal attack . The was unnecessarily uncivil, had nothing to do with the issue and is an . So I followed the dispute resolution first step and . Urban XII made no effort to contact me or give an explanation, and instead and as Vandalism, along with a different request by Misplaced Pages editor User talk:Wilhelm_meis. I am now requesting a third opinion or a Misplaced Pages Administrator's intervention. DD2KDave Dial 17:14, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
Comment: I made a response to a personal attack by User:DD2K, merely pointing out his disruptive record at Misplaced Pages, leading to a permanent block of him in the past. My comment was clearly appropriate. This user, who has never been involved in anything else than edit-warring and conflicts with editors and never contributed with content to Misplaced Pages, apparently continues his stalking of me at this page. I don't intend to waste more time on such disruptive editors. Urban XII (talk) 17:30, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- Can we get some actual diffs here? I'm not sure what it is I'm supposed to be looking at. --Smashville 21:31, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- He's referring to made in response to his own comment seen above. In short, a user who previously was banned indefinitely, who had made only 42 edits, who has never contributed with content to our encyclopedia, and whose only contributions so far have been edit-warring and conflicts with other editors, attacks me for "using Misplaced Pages as a personal soapbox" (although I'm the one who has been critical of other editors using Misplaced Pages as a soapbox). I pointed out the record of this particular user because he himself felt the need to point out that I registered this summer. I've actually made roughly 30 times as many edits as that user and unlike him written a number of articles. When one look at the contributions of DD2K, it's evident that he's in no position to attack other users from being involved in conflicts (or as in my case, being the target of disruptive stalking and vendetta sprees like this thread is just the most recent example of). The discussion is an attempt to revive a previous discussion that has now been archived. Some people feel they cannot let other alone. I see no reason to continue this discussion. Everything has been said before. A more appropriate heading for the discussion would be "harassment by User:DD2K". Urban XII (talk) 23:57, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- The comment DD2K is referring to was placed . Note: the discussion was already archived before Urban XII added the comment in question. Urban did not directly refer to DD2K's request for dispute resolution as vandalism, but he did imply a false accusation of vandalism with this edit. This is not the first time he has confused comments and warnings on his talk page with vandalism . I notified this user here that some of his edits that were marked as minor edits were not considered WP:MINOR, but that seemed to fall on deaf ears, and my reminder here may be what he was referring to as "vandalism". Either way, false accusations of vandalism seem to be a theme for this user . Looking at the user's edits, it looks to me like he is working at cross purposes to Misplaced Pages's policies, as he seems to continually have problems with NPOV, BLP policy, NPA, and WP:SOAP. It has been said (by another user) that he seems to be here to Right Great Wrongs. Maybe that would explain his persistent disregard for policy. Wilhelm Meis (Quatsch!) 00:02, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- He's referring to made in response to his own comment seen above. In short, a user who previously was banned indefinitely, who had made only 42 edits, who has never contributed with content to our encyclopedia, and whose only contributions so far have been edit-warring and conflicts with other editors, attacks me for "using Misplaced Pages as a personal soapbox" (although I'm the one who has been critical of other editors using Misplaced Pages as a soapbox). I pointed out the record of this particular user because he himself felt the need to point out that I registered this summer. I've actually made roughly 30 times as many edits as that user and unlike him written a number of articles. When one look at the contributions of DD2K, it's evident that he's in no position to attack other users from being involved in conflicts (or as in my case, being the target of disruptive stalking and vendetta sprees like this thread is just the most recent example of). The discussion is an attempt to revive a previous discussion that has now been archived. Some people feel they cannot let other alone. I see no reason to continue this discussion. Everything has been said before. A more appropriate heading for the discussion would be "harassment by User:DD2K". Urban XII (talk) 23:57, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- Wilhelm, next time I will be the one who starts a thread on you. Maybe someone could explain about NPOV, SOAP, CIVILITY and POINT to you? The same group of users have been continously harassing me at this page following a disagreement at Talk:Roman Polanski. The abuse of WP:AN/I for the purpose of stalking one's opponents is becoming increasingly disruptive to Misplaced Pages as a whole. Urban XII (talk) 00:10, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- I believe he was asking you(User:Urban XII) to provide links to your accusations. I've already supplied links. I asked that you remove your personal attack, I was responding to an Administrator's suggestion that User:Urban XII be blocked for 3 months. My previous experiences, from which I've learned from(violating WP:BLP and WP:COI) or how many edits I've made have nothing to do with the issue. In fact, they gave me a better understanding of those policies and how vital they are to Misplaced Pages. Any user can go to my , or the made by User:Daniel J. Leivick to see that a resolution was made. Not that that issue, or how many edits I've made, has anything to do with you making personal attacks against numerous editors. DD2K (talk) 00:20, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- The "personal attack" you first mentioned was a summary of your problematic behavior in Misplaced Pages. That's a far cry from a personal attack. In fact, it's only responding in kind when you did the same thing. It's no more of an ad hominem than your original response, and was meant to illustrate hypocrisy (successful or not). Removing your request from Urban XII's talk page was acceptable, calling it vandalism was certainly uncivil. That in itself isn't actionable except maybe to say "shame on you" to Urban XII. -- Atama頭 20:35, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Hmmm.... So a user starting an entry off with a 'LOL' and responding with a list of resolved issues(almost a year old), which have nothing to do with the numerous complaints directed towards that user is not a 'personal attack' or uncivil? I was commenting on complaints by other users about problems an editor User:Urban XII was causing on certain issues, which have nothing to do with nearly year old problems that I've had. Much less how much I edit or contribute to Misplaced Pages. Which would be akin to me responding to your post here with a list of your past behavior(if you had any, which you probably don't), instead of responding to your points. In any case, I think the response was unwarranted(ATVLMisplaced Pages:Etiquette-Misplaced Pages:Civility), but maybe you're right. Or at least it's better dropped. Thank you for taking the time to give your opinion, I know these petty disagreements must get irritating, consider this issue resolved. DD2K (talk) 22:15, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Oh I didn't say it wasn't uncivil. I apologize if it seems that I endorse Urban XII's editing style or particular comments. In particular calling other editor's comments "vandalism" because they don't like them is bad behavior. But personal attacks are a step above, or you could call it a "step below" looking at the pyramid you linked before. :) Personal attacks generally draw swifter sanction than other forms of incivility in my experience so it's often important to properly define them. And it's a subjective call anyway, and just my opinion. But moving on is probably best unless Urban XII starts harassing you about it in the future. -- Atama頭 22:44, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Fair enough, and I agree. For the most part. :-) Thanks again and good job. DD2K (talk) 23:08, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Oh I didn't say it wasn't uncivil. I apologize if it seems that I endorse Urban XII's editing style or particular comments. In particular calling other editor's comments "vandalism" because they don't like them is bad behavior. But personal attacks are a step above, or you could call it a "step below" looking at the pyramid you linked before. :) Personal attacks generally draw swifter sanction than other forms of incivility in my experience so it's often important to properly define them. And it's a subjective call anyway, and just my opinion. But moving on is probably best unless Urban XII starts harassing you about it in the future. -- Atama頭 22:44, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Hmmm.... So a user starting an entry off with a 'LOL' and responding with a list of resolved issues(almost a year old), which have nothing to do with the numerous complaints directed towards that user is not a 'personal attack' or uncivil? I was commenting on complaints by other users about problems an editor User:Urban XII was causing on certain issues, which have nothing to do with nearly year old problems that I've had. Much less how much I edit or contribute to Misplaced Pages. Which would be akin to me responding to your post here with a list of your past behavior(if you had any, which you probably don't), instead of responding to your points. In any case, I think the response was unwarranted(ATVLMisplaced Pages:Etiquette-Misplaced Pages:Civility), but maybe you're right. Or at least it's better dropped. Thank you for taking the time to give your opinion, I know these petty disagreements must get irritating, consider this issue resolved. DD2K (talk) 22:15, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- The "personal attack" you first mentioned was a summary of your problematic behavior in Misplaced Pages. That's a far cry from a personal attack. In fact, it's only responding in kind when you did the same thing. It's no more of an ad hominem than your original response, and was meant to illustrate hypocrisy (successful or not). Removing your request from Urban XII's talk page was acceptable, calling it vandalism was certainly uncivil. That in itself isn't actionable except maybe to say "shame on you" to Urban XII. -- Atama頭 20:35, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- I believe he was asking you(User:Urban XII) to provide links to your accusations. I've already supplied links. I asked that you remove your personal attack, I was responding to an Administrator's suggestion that User:Urban XII be blocked for 3 months. My previous experiences, from which I've learned from(violating WP:BLP and WP:COI) or how many edits I've made have nothing to do with the issue. In fact, they gave me a better understanding of those policies and how vital they are to Misplaced Pages. Any user can go to my , or the made by User:Daniel J. Leivick to see that a resolution was made. Not that that issue, or how many edits I've made, has anything to do with you making personal attacks against numerous editors. DD2K (talk) 00:20, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
User:119.73.3.51
119.73.3.51 (talk · contribs) (and various related IPs) is sockpuppet of User:NisarKand/User:Khampalak/User:Alishah85 - all three being banned indefinitely. The user is propagating nationalistic POV, he is very offensive (example: religious chauvinism, comparable to Taliban ideology), and he is violating Misplaced Pages rules (he has once again violated WP:3RR in Amir Kror Suri). Because of him, the articles Ghurids and Muhammad of Ghor have been blocked. The user is known to have more than 100 sockpuppets, most of them have been blocked by admins. Tajik (talk) 17:34, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- user warned, also for issuing religious attacks here. Ecoman24 (talk page) 08:42, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
User: PassionoftheDamon
For some time, a number of users have noted the opinionated nature and POV pushing of the article Miami Hurricanes football and associated articles. User PassionoftheDamon with a few friends systematically revert every edit made to the page. This was made clear by my discovery that much of the history section of the article was in fact copied word-for-word from the UM Athletics Dept. website over two years ago. Even though many edits were made since that time, the overwhelming number have been immediately reverted, leaving the biased, overwritten text in virtually its pristine form.
I then applied a {{copyvio}} template, which clearly instructs that no further edits should be made and to work out a new version on a subpage. However, PassionoftheDamon deleted the template and blanked out the relevant portion of the history. I noted this on the Copyright notice board, and PassionoftheDamon claimed that I was lying about his removal of the template and blanking. Because no subpage was established by the deleted template, I then spent several hours reconstructing the history taking care to avoid paraphrasing the copyrighted material and avoiding the POV bias of that material. I deliberately avoided tracking the same selection of detail used by the original article, but I left footnotes to the article as a source.
Now PassionoftheDamon has blanket reverted the entire replacement version without any explanation as to what was wrong with it. His edit summary just says "rv." He is now slowly restoring a close paraphrase of the copyright material, using the same selection of details as the original. Rather than footnoting to the website, he is referencing a slightly different form of the UM history in its 2007 media guide.
This conduct is on top of two weeks of blanket reverting all of my earlier changes to the article. When I have added {{fact}} templates, they are removed without adding a source or offering an explanatory comment. When I delete a sentence as being unsourced (and impossible to prove), he restores it with an edit summary saying I should "slap a tag" instead.
I have tried to describe my concerns on the talk page since October 8. and and While one other reverting editor did discuss my concerns a bit, in the end he explained that the neutral language which I had inserted into the article was "too plain." User PassionoftheDamo has generally refrained from discussing specific changes, and finally exchanged a few comments with phrases like "the only issue is your obstinate refusal to acknowledge sources anytime they contradict what you wish to be reality" to describe my proposal to attribute statements of opinion to their sources. (In short, when PassionoftheDamo finds a source, he is just adding it as a footnote to the end of the sentence instead of restructuring the sentence to something like "Some sports writers have used the term 'Quarterback U' to refer to Miami...".)
Finally, because there is a POV dispute, I have added the POV and cleanup tags to a three of these articles, only to have PassionoftheDamon repeatedly and promptly revert them (without attempting to resolve the dispute.)
We should also determine how this copyright violation continued for so long. What tipped me off was PassionoftheDamon's comment to me on the talk page, "Concerning your final two complaints, both of those passages are paraphrased from the official university history of the program, so if you want sources, those could very easily be provided." I am troubled by the idea that the goal of a Misplaced Pages article would be an unattributed, very close paraphrase of a biased athletic dept. website instead of an independent NPOV summary of the relevant and significant facts.
I agree that consensus is important. But Misplaced Pages's other standards including NPOV are equally important, and one or two people should not be able to assert ownership over an article to the extent that it would remain a verbatim copyright violation for over two years. Your assistance would be appreciated. Racepacket (talk) 17:58, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- Racepacket's concept of POV is flawed, as he opposes the use of simple adjectives that have positive or negative connotations as not being of a neutral point of view.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 18:26, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- To the extent that there is more at stake than just POV, you have a point. However, "whopping", "rout", "humiliating" and other peacock words do not help a factual account. It is all the more troubling that such words were lifted verbatim from a biased source without attribution. So, we have copyvio, POV, and other cleanup issues. The POV is clearest in the case of the discussion of the demolition of the Orange Bowl (which is not even owned by the University of Miami.) Why should an article about the Miami Hurricanes football team cover either side of the argument on the city's decision to tear that stadium down? The current article covers only one side. When I proposed neutral language, it was reverted as "too plain." Plain language makes for an easy to understand NPOV reference encyclopedia.
- Apparently, I was not the first to notice the copyvio. Someone reported it on the talk page in Sept. 2007 Racepacket (talk) 19:37, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- User:Racepacket has a documented history on the talk page of both ignoring sources and trying to force his edits into the article in the face of opposing consensus. This problematic behavior extends not just to the Miami Hurricanes football article (where he has been reverted not just by me, but others), but pretty much all University of Miami-related articles. He deliberately distorts Misplaced Pages policy, challenging or summarily blanking pretty much any use of an adjective in a UM article, and when an abundance of sources are provided to verify the description, he simply ignores them.
- He voiced a frivolous objection to describing the Orange Bowl as "one of the most historic stadiums of college football," and when three cites were provided from mainstream sources (including The New York Times) describing the facility alternately as "one of the most storied stadiums in college football history", "historic, venerable", and "historic", he still proceeded to claim it was "unsupported" and obstinately tried to exclude it from the article.
- He likewise objected to characterizing a 47-0 loss by Miami to Florida State as "humiliating" and "one of the program's worst defeats," even though it was supported by three sources: "most embarrassing, humiliating" "blown-out," "destroyed" (Feldman, Cane Mutiny). Most amazingly of all, he actually tried to claim that this characterization was somehow POV in favor of Miami, the team that lost the game 47-0.
- As to the issue of the copyright violation on the previous History section of the article, once it was apparent that it was a blatant case of infringement (literally copied and pasted from the UM athletics web site), I removed it in the interest of shielding the project from liability. User:Drew1830 was responsible for the addition of the material some time in June of 2007 . Racepacket then began adding an altered version, which very closely matched the wording and details of the source that had been infringed and which, again, sought to inject the same contentious edits that were previously opposed and rejected on the talk page. With that, I went to work crafting a new history section from scratch which uses the 2007 media guide as a primary source while incorporating a variety of other sources. It is better worded, better sourced, presents no copyright issues, and does not contain any of the rejected edits that Racepacket tried to stealthily restore.
- These are but a few examples of the consistently quarrelsome behavior of Racepacket. With a history of sock puppetry and lack of respect for both 3RR, consensus, and verifiability, he is a user who, in all frankness, should be permanently exiled from the community, and it is nothing short of amusing to hear him now act as if he is some aggrieved party.-PassionoftheDamon (talk) 20:28, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- Without getting into all the rest, the use of "humiliating" and "most historic" are not NPOV, as they clearly denote an opinion, not a fact. --Smashville 21:28, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- These are but a few examples of the consistently quarrelsome behavior of Racepacket. With a history of sock puppetry and lack of respect for both 3RR, consensus, and verifiability, he is a user who, in all frankness, should be permanently exiled from the community, and it is nothing short of amusing to hear him now act as if he is some aggrieved party.-PassionoftheDamon (talk) 20:28, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- Aside from the merits of each position, the concern is that the {{copyvio}} give clear instructions on how to proceed, "Do not edit this page until an administrator has resolved this issue. To write a new article without infringing material, follow this link to create a temporary subpage." (bold in the original) Similarly the {{POV}} template is clear, "Please do not remove this message until the dispute is resolved." Yet, PassionoftheDamon repeatedly removes POV templates without acknowledging the talk page comments relevant to my concerns. At a minimum we should mutally decide that the POV dispute has been resolved. More serious is the removal of the copyvio template. The idea behind the template is that the original infringing material is left on the page, but not viewable and blocked by a norobots tag to prevent spiders searching it. A new consensus article is developed on a subpage and then an Administrator comes along, compares the two, and decides if the problem was resolved. There was no need for PassionoftheDamon to blank the text and remove the tag and indeed the instructions on the tag told him otherwise. Because the tag was not there to point to the new subpage, I spent two and a half hours writing a non-infringing replacement only to have him revert it without comment or explanation. Racepacket (talk) 21:46, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- The copyright vio protocol also says that in cases of blatant copyright infringement (which this most assuredly was), the infringing material may be summarily deleted or reverted. As to the tags you continually and arbitrarily kept adding to the article (as well as just about every other UM-related article on Misplaced Pages), your concerns were discussed and considered on the talk page, and, simply unsatisfied with the outcome of those discussions and that you did not get every single change you wanted incorporated into the article, you continued to reapply the tags even after they were removed not just by myself, but by other editors as well. Finally, don't be disingenuous as to the "new" History section you added this morning, which, aside from being of poor quality, lacking diversity in sources, and very closely resembling the previously infringed work, stealthily included a number of the contentious edits/reverts that you proposed on the talk page and which had been rejected, over and over and over again.-PassionoftheDamon (talk) 22:02, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- I'll also point out that this ANI seems largely opened in response to a pending Rfc regarding Racepacket in which I and several others are taking part, an unsurprising tactic from this particular user.-PassionoftheDamon (talk) 22:10, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- I was not aware of any race to post, but I spent more than an hour drafting this ANI (this is my first time, and I had to review the procedures) and posted it at 17:58, your RFC document was clocked in at 18:30, so I believe you have the chronology reversed. This is all an incredible waste of time. Could you please stop hitting the revert button on every contribution to these pages and discuss instead? Racepacket (talk) 22:28, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- I'll also point out that this ANI seems largely opened in response to a pending Rfc regarding Racepacket in which I and several others are taking part, an unsurprising tactic from this particular user.-PassionoftheDamon (talk) 22:10, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- The constant reverting continues. This morning, I deleted the adjective "prestigious" modifying Heisman Trophy. I also deleted the phrase "A hotbed for professional talent". PassionoftheDamon reverts it without any edit summary or talk page comment. I have left a detailed basis for my concerns at http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Miami_Hurricanes_football#Lead_paragraph. Would a third party mediator be helpful in removing the POV from the article? Racepacket (talk) 15:57, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
There is currently a request for comment concerning Racepacket's editing activities, in particular the disruption he has brought to articles in Category:University of Miami. This RFC can be found here, to serve as a third party mediator in all of Racepacket's disruption on Misplaced Pages.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 18:06, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- I don't understand your comment. User:PassionoftheDamon has improperly removed a copyvio tag and has improperly blanked out the non-infringing history that I wrote to replace the copyvio. He has also removed POV templates without consensus. We need an administrator to resolve these. As a separate matter, a number of users have complained for some time on the Talk:Miami Hurricanes football page that he has been systematically reverting everyone else's edits to prevent any changes to biased, copyrighted material for over two years. As a third matter, I twice proposed using a mediator to resolve a pair of content disputes with you on a different article University of Miami. You refused in one case and you did not respond in another. We moved on from both of those disputes. As a separate matter, two paragraphs above, and also on the Talk:Miami Hurricanes football page, I proposed generally to the editors of the MHf page (a page which you don't edit) that we have a mediator resolve some serious disputes including how to handle the copyvio. Yet, in the paragraph above, you are responding that your RFC, which appears to be filed in response to this ANI, should result in a mediation. I have yet to research exactly what an RFC is, but it seems to me the key to unwinding this is to get the copyvio resolved (which requires an administrator) and to get PassionoftheDamon et al to stop blanket reverting other users including: Mcmachete, Anthony Krupp, 74.229.5.6, and 67.67.223.78 (judging by just the complaints on the talk page). There are much broader problems here that require administrator intervention. Thanks, Racepacket (talk) 19:11, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
User Yogesh Khande
The user Yogesh Khandke comments are in clear breach of Misplaced Pages NPOV policy.. his quote; "Dickens was a b****y, f*****g, r****t. A white chauvinist p*g. No offence ment to the later. This aspect of his personality is absent in this biographical article of him, and the void has been filled imho by my additions"
With his set agenda and extreme bias this user is contravening one of the five pillars of Misplaced Pages. He also has unfounded issue with Anglo-American POV on Misplaced Pages. He has repeatedly highlighted certain unqualified comments to fit his set agenda, whitewash. As a repeat offender i propose user ban from this article. BobSilverman (talk) 20:28, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- Notified user of this section--Iner22 (talk) 19:29, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- I have used *** so that invectives are alluded to. I have been stone walled. I have written hundereds of lines which would not be possible to repeat here unless I go in for a huge copy paste exercise. Would the concerend authorities kindly refer to the discussion on talk:Charles Dickens, please? Yogesh Khandke (talk) 19:34, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- I am repeating my reply to BS's charges, they have appeared on talk:Charles Dickens.
- Your clear breach of NPOV, no
- self admitting set agenda, yes
- swearing, no I have used ***, to remain civil.
- racist slurs, no The system is biased, Misplaced Pages says so, I have not meant to make personal attacks, I have contested views, which I think is fair, freedom of speech
- issue with Anglo-American POV yes, is that a reason to be banned???
- repeated breach of one of the five pillars of wikipedia, no
- i have no alternative but to contact administration. I do not know how to react to this.
Please it is 1.04 am local time here and I need to call it a day, will get back asap. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 19:41, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- Censoring yourself does not make your comments civil. You admit above that you were alluding to invectives. How is this any different from saying them outright? Hersfold 20:22, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- Also, interesting that he admits to having an agenda...combined with the incivility...I'm not really sure what to make of this user. A problem, for certain. --Smashville 20:44, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- All of that nonsense should come out of the Talk page anyway, WP:NOTFORUM. The invective about a long-dead write who can't defend himself has nothing to do with the article. Who cares about US activity in Afghanistan, and what does that have to do with Charles Dickens? Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 00:25, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
Charges and my reply
See some charges here Talk:Charles_Dickens#The_five_pillars_of_Wikipedia
I am sorry but you are jumping to conclusions, which is not appropriate, despite your disclaimer, that you have not looked into the matter in detail.
Please there must have been hundreds of lines written on the subject. Do not jump to conclusions. Go through the entire discussion before making comments.
- Except for the disguised invectives all the other points above are unwarranted allegations. I merely used them to describe Dickens in everyday language, devoid of scholarly euphemisms. But I have alluded to invectives. I perhaps should have used the words, today Dickens would, using everyday language be called a *** *** etc. English is not my first language, and though I understand words and their meanings, I do not know what the fine line between colloquiallity and profanity is, in the Anglo-American cultural context. The discussion page is as far as I understand a little more informal than the article. The American movies that we watch are many times full of profanity, even when families with members of different ages and genders are shown interacting. I have seen atleast one instance of a Misplaced Pages policy article using a word like jerk which wikitionary marks as (US, slang, pejorative), and gives some synonyms as asshole and bastard. I have no idea what goes and what does not. However in my native tongue, and personally I abhor profanity, and if I come across as profane, I tender an unconditional apology, as I cannot expect others to be sensitive when I am not sensitive to their feelings.
- There have been no edit wars, so your advice though generally sound is unwarranted in this case.
- I have not synthesised, I have not indulged in original research, the charge of wp:undue is unwarranted and not based on evidence,also you have to prove that only a minority of reliable sources hold the view that Dickens held racist views. Please quote one non-white non-Christian source that exonerates Dickens of the charge of racism.
- Please read the discussion carefully before making charges, though your disclaimer says that you have not arrived to indict anyone.
- As far as I can judge the situation, the editors involved are comfortable with their differing views, and I have stated that I do not need arbitration, or rfc, but am prepared to wait, for other editors to come in. Please go through the entire discussion before forming opinions.
- wp:FREE which says editing Misplaced Pages is a privilege granted to you by the permission of the Wikimedia Foundation, and can be revoked at any time for whatever reason that organization sees fit to do so. Have I abused my privilege as an editor, unless criticising imperialism and slavery and white supremacist ideology is construed as a violation of this privilege. In that case I am prepared to relinquish my editing privilege, not on this article but on Misplaced Pages as then Misplaced Pages would not be worth to be around imho.
- I have written that I have contested views and not attacked individuals. I have supported my arguments even on the talk page with reliable sources. I have gone through wp:LEDE and have quoted it above. It seems to confirm my arguments, but if there is no consensus I will not indulge in edit wars, this was and is my stated position.
- I have not violated wp:V as every word I have written in the article has been sourced from good reliable sources. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 03:44, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- For context, I believe this is in reply to an attempt I made to mediate / intervene. For those who'd like to see the comments Yogesh is responding to, they're either here on the articles talkpage or in the box below (reproduced for convenience). --Bfigura 04:19, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
Comments that are responded to above |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
|
Links for the referred comments has been given above already. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 05:13, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
Reply to charges here
- I have replied to charges of incivility, though incivility is usually used in the context of other editors, also I have an agenda: try to make wikipedia articles multidimensional, and not just a perpetuation of the Anglo-American world view and bias (which has been acknowledged by Misplaced Pages, while following all Misplaced Pages rules,) is that a problem?
- The charge of Misplaced Pages:NOTFORUM#FORUM is unwarranted. A reliable source which is mentioned in the article has referred to Fagin and the Holocaust in the same breath, events which had a hundred year gap. Do you wish I come up with reliable sources that connect Dickens' white supremacist attitude with US actions in Afghanistan and Iraq?
- I do not claim to be perfect. But I have no hidden agenda, all my cards are on the table, and I am pledged to play the game by its rules. Is that a problem? Yogesh Khandke (talk) 04:13, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- WP:CIVIL does not require you to be incivil to a specific editor. Claiming that articles show an "Anglo-American bias" is a loaded accusation so, yes, it is a problem.
- Connecting Dickens to modern American wars would be original synthesis and against the rules.
- We're not here to play a game, so neither should you. — The Hand That Feeds You: 21:21, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
One source for 2 above
This one is not first class, let other editors judge.] It can atleast prove that I am not a mad railer imagining things. Dickens was a white-supremacist and a racist and a imperialist. Remember more people died in the Bengal famine than all Romas, Romas, Slavs and others in the Holocaust. Imperialism was a seriously damaging ideology, based on white supremacy, whose supporter was Dickens. He was an active campaigner, Jamaica, Rae, 1857-India, he used his weight, to further its end. (Do you want wp:rs for this, check his article.) Yogesh Khandke (talk) 04:30, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- You're using what looks like a socialist blog to prove Dickens's imperialist racism. That's not only not "first class" but it would take a great deal of effort to find a less reliable source than that. You seem to be editing simply to make a point which I assure you is not going to be successful. -- Atama頭 21:09, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Sorry, as you said previously, Misplaced Pages just may not be for you. We do not allow people to slant articles to fit a particular point of view, nor do we allow racism (regardless of which race it's against). — The Hand That Feeds You: 21:16, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
Yogesh Defends
It is amazing that people here just do not have the patience to read, but simply want to jump to conclusions and condemn. I will reply in the order of appearance above.
- On the issue of civility please see Charges and my reply point 1.
- I am not claiming that articles show Anglo-American bias, Misplaced Pages acknowledges that English-Misplaced Pages shows an Anglo-American bias as a systemic limitation. (to see internal link, check talk page of Dickens) I am merely pointing out that the Dickens' article is one such.
- Connecting Dickens' to American imperialism is not my fantasy, just as there is a connection between Fagin and the Holocaust, events 100 years apart. This replies to Atma too. The cited source is a site with 3.4 million hits, too bad it is socialist. Are socialists the new Untermensch? (Atma in Sanskrit is soul, just a randon musing). Atma (please read before rushing to accuse), I have not used the source to prove Dickens white supremacist ideology, there are other sources and they are there in the article. Please check. It is a pity that I started on a back foot about the source though, it is pretty sound. I did that because blogs are not considered good sources irrespective of the blog's ideology, or quality.
- To play the game by its rules is a phrase, if you are not aware of its usage it is not my fault. Phrases to my knowledge (which is limited though, considering that English is not my first language) are not shredded to pieces. Just to help you here is one example of usage:
- I am editing Dickens' because I sincerely believe that Misplaced Pages should not be uni-dimensional, is that a crime? I repeat if Misplaced Pages is here to perpetute a certain vision, sweep the unpleasant under carpets, it is not worth any sane person to spend good time with it? What my views are and what my agenda is, is hardly important as long as I do not violate Misplaced Pages principles and practices. The Dickens' article was and remains slanted, to borrow your term, I'll give you one example, the Inuit-Franklin controversy was hidden between verbiage, even an editor who spent lots of time dueling (a figure of speech, don't take it literally) on the discussion page could not find it. How would a casual reader? The Dickens article was/is like the Tower at Pisa, I am merely putting/have placed counter weights to straighten it. I have not been the first one and hopefully not the last.
- Theoretically racism can be in any direction, but have hundreds of thousands of white slaves ever been shipped to Africa? If they have it is equally reprehensible. Even if one has it is atrocious. For my other disclaimers and views on racism please see my user page, Dickens' talk page and my talk page. As I said my cards are on the table. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 07:39, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
Atma's Allegation that I have climbed a soapbox
Please come up with instances where I have
- indulged in propaganda, advocacy, or recruitment
- indulged in writing opinion pieces.
- Scandal mongered, indulged in self-promotion or advertising.
Either prove or withdraw this allegation. Please. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 08:27, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- Yogesh, you're starting to exhaust the community's patience here. Your entire purpose seems to be to advocate a position ("Dickens was a racist") and your persistent single-mindedness on this topic is what's causing the friction here. Several members of the community have pointed out to you that your actions are not within Misplaced Pages's rules, and your attitude has been very confrontational. I suggest you let this matter drop. — The Hand That Feeds You: 14:43, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- A few members have alleged that I have broken rules, I have demonstrated above that such allegations are false, unwarranted and unfounded. There has been no heat generated on the Dickens' talk page. Yes my entire purpose for the moment with reference to the Dickens' article is to ensure that the said aspect of Dickens' personality is adequately represented in the article, such multi-dimensioned articles would enhance Misplaced Pages's worth. Aren't remarks such as "Yogesh, you're starting to exhaust the community's patience here." and "your attitude has been very confrontational" themselves examples of attempts to browbeat. I have not brought this matter up, I have been "put on the docks", I am merely defending myself. Yogesh Khandke (talk) 16:06, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
BLP issues and Personal Attacks on JIDF Talk Page
Seems that two editors, John Nagle and Peter cohen have personal beefs with David Appletree of the JIDF. Here Peter Cohen calls David Appletree "crazy" in Yiddish ("meshugunnah"). Here we have John Nagle giving his personal opinion of Appletree "whining" and "complaining" on a radio show, pulling things out of context to put Appletree in a very negative light. These two editors have been butchering the article about the JIDF for quite some time, trying their best to shed the most negative light on the organization as possible. They are also using original research and their own opinions to question the character of David Appletree. I thought that BLP rules apply to ALL pages on Misplaced Pages? --64.120.158.78 (talk) 19:47, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- it's very telling that no one has responded to this yet. --216.244.65.89 (talk) 10:35, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- First, it would be helpful to others if you mentioned that JIDF stands for Jewish Internet Defense Force and added a Wikilink to its article.
- Second, the JIDF article is a drama-magnet and uninvolved editors may not care that two JIDF supporters (who may be sockpuppets of blocked users) are contributing to the drama.
- Finally, the instructions at the top of this page say "You must notify any user that you discuss." (emphasis in original) You neglected to notify John Nagle or Peter cohen. — ] (talk · contribs) 18:48, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- It would be helpful if the anons involved would register for Misplaced Pages accounts. Then at least we'd know who was unhappy about what.
- As for "Appletree"'s "radio show" (really just a file on "blogtalkradio.com"), I haven't mentioned that in article space, just talk space. I'm not sure what to say about it in article space. It's been mentioned in other blogs, but not in any serious news medium. The audio file does seem to present Appletree in a negative light, but since it consists entirely of Appletree talking, it's hard to blame that on anyone else. --John Nagle (talk) 19:50, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- There's no need for an anonymous editor to register simply to report perceived misbehavior. The diffs above make it clear what they are objecting to and even if they registered, you wouldn't know "who" was unhappy (just which accounts posted the complaint). But to answer the complaint, WP:BLP#Non-article space covers the matter of BLPs on talk pages, but it doesn't seem to apply to the diffs provided. Talk pages in articles are where personal opinions are allowed, as opposed to article space. Absent any diffs showing particularly horrendous BLP violations on a talk page, or diffs showing problems with article space I don't see what is actionable. -- Atama頭 21:21, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
Yes, and as it says there, "Contentious material that is unsourced or poorly sourced and not related or useful to making article content choices should be deleted, and even permanently removed ("oversighted") if especially problematic (telephone number, libel, etc). New material should generally be discussed in order to arrive at a consensus concerning relevance, availability of sources, and reliability of sources. Repeated questionable claims with biographies of living persons issues not based on new evidence can generally be immediately deleted with a reference to where in the archive the prior consensus was reached." I do think it's interesting that the only people who have really responded to this are those who have had issues with the JIDF in the past. Perhaps we can get some objective folks to opine, as I don't feel it's right to be calling people "crazy" on talk pages. --216.155.158.139 (talk) 03:59, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
Yes, um calling people crazy on talk pages is not ideal. So um, don't do it again unless you have a good reason to. Since there's close to no Misplaced Pages relevant reason to call soemone crazy try to avoid doing it. Ok? Let's move on now. (Refactoring away that part of the remark wouldn't hurt either) JoshuaZ (talk) 04:06, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- 216.155.158.139, you must be mistaking me for some other editor. I've never "had issues with the JIDF in the past". On the other hand, I won't roll over and let you and your JIDF buddies write the article as a puff piece. As thanks, you've attacked me for archiving the article's Talk page, for responding here, and for God knows what other sins. Thank you for showing the true face of the JIDF. — ] (talk · contribs) 05:46, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
Academic Source/community ban proposal
Resolved – WP:RSN discussion, no admin intervention required. Tim Vickers (talk) 17:02, 15 October 2009 (UTC)Hello, in the Thracians article a referenced academic source is being constantly removed. The source is: ( Poulianos, Aris N., 1961, The Origin of the Greeks, Ph.D. thesis, University of Moscow, supervised by F.G.Debets ). I have been told that the removal of such a source is vandalism. How must I proceed? Thank you for your help.--Monshuai (talk) 01:31, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Good timing, I was just about to post here myself. The editor in question, Monshuai (talk · contribs) is a diehard Bulgarian nationalist single-purpose account whose edits largely consist of disrupting John Vincent Atanasoff and a few other instances of disruption on Bulgaria-related articles, for which he has been blocked twice. Now he's trolling Thracians with some nonsense or other, as well as my talkpage, informing me that I'm a vandal. Can we just ban this guy? I would do so myself but suppose me reversion of his stuff at Thracians makes me "involved". Moreschi (talk) 01:34, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- I don't know if it's proper for Moreschi to accuse someone of being a "die hard nationalist" when the edit in question has to do with a properly sourced academic reference? I also don't think it's appropriate for Moreschi to threaten me with a long block (as he did on his talk page: http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Moreschi), just because I pointed out that removing academic articles is a form of vandalism and that an investigation may be in order. I do not believe that is within his administrative duty to supress my opinion of his actions especially when they are in reference to his removal of academic sources, as per Misplaced Pages rules. In addition, I have had a Misplaced Pages account for nearly four years. It is true that I have been involved in revert wars which have caused me to be blocked twice from editing a specific article for a period of 24 hours. However I don't think that's a very negative record on my part considering the amount of time and effort I have put into contributing to Misplaced Pages over these four years. In addition, I have learned from my experiences and thus I no longer get involved in revert wars. In other words, I discuss everything as best I can in both discussion pages and user talk pages. That is also why I have come here. That said, nothing changes the fact that Moreschi removed the Dr. Poulianos source which was examined by Dr. F.G. Debets. Furthermore, if I were a die-hard nationalist I would not have included the other sources in the Thracians article years ago, which also show anthropological connections between Thracians and Greeks and Albanians and Greeks. Clearly, my goal was to show that various modern populations have connections with the Thracians, and not one nation versus another.--Monshuai (talk) 01:54, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Generally source discussions should happen at the reliable sources noticeboard, but I can tell you that phd/ma theses are not generally considered unambiguously reliable sources. Protonk (talk) 02:30, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Thrace is in Eastern Europe. Nationalist warriors at Thracians might be given warnings under WP:Requests for arbitration/Digwuren#Remedies, or even under WP:ARBMAC. Either ruling would allow admins to impose discretionary sanctions if there is a pattern of ongoing edits that tends to disrupt the encyclopedia. I recall the Atanasoff business and in my opinion it was nationalist POV-pushing by Monshuai. I believe that Arbcom is concerned about nationalist editing and intends that the remedies provided in these cases be actually used. Lately some rather severe restrictions have been handed out under ARBMAC, for instance one revert per week on any article in the area of conflict. EdJohnston (talk) 02:58, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Thank you for the help Protonk. In 2006, I was told by an administrator that PhD theses are considered reliable as they are peer reviewed by the relevant university faculty. He/she also stated that PhD papers are referenced in peer reviewed journal articles. In addition, Dr. Poulianos and Dr. Debets are anthropologists.--Monshuai (talk) 02:39, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- It turns out that the source in question is published, academic and peer reviewed:
- The origin of the hellenes. An ethnogenetic inquiry. Aris N. Poulianos. 160 pp, 5 tables, 9 maps, 32 photographs. 1962. Morphosis Press, Athens. Originally published in 1960 by the Institute of Ethnography of the Academy of Sciences of the U. S. S. R., translated into Greek by the author with special assistance of Nikos Antonopoulos. It should also be noted that Dr. Aris Poulianos, the author of the said study, is the founder of the Greek Anthropological Association.--Monshuai (talk) 07:34, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- The discussion at RSN seems to have reached a consensus that the source itself is not reliable, but a highly critical review of it that was published in a journal is. Which is fine. Now, I've had multiple people email me over the last couple hours about this, including one with the (I presume CU-confirmed, since it came from a CU) allegation that Janelle4elle (talk · contribs) is actually just a sock of Monshuai (talk · contribs), which if I do get confirmation of would certainly be a cause to banninate very, very quickly. Moreschi (talk) 08:59, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- The discussion at RSN reached a consensus that the source is academic and peer reviewed. Please see it here: ( http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#The_Origin_of_the_Greeks.2C_Ph.D._thesis ) Also, I resent the accusation that Janelle4elle's account is a sock for my account. What are the rules for such accusations and how are they dealt with when they are baseless? I will demand a full IP investigation and a disclosure into who is making these allegations, including why Moreschi is stating this here. Can someone point me to the Misplaced Pages rule page about such accusations? Thank you.--Monshuai (talk) 09:35, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Monshuai is grossly misrepresenting my opinion at WP:RS/N and was warned at WP:RS/N#fifelfoowarns at 07:13, 14 October 2009 (UTC). Monshuai is grossly misrepresenting my opinion which is that PhD theses are non notable, and that reliable published sources should be published. I find this behaviour grossly offensive. Fifelfoo (talk) 09:40, 14 October 2009 (UTC) I have additionally been misrepresented at User_talk:Moreschi#Academic_Sources and User talk:EdJohnston#Hi EdJohnston Fifelfoo (talk) 09:47, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- The discussion at RSN reached a consensus that the source is academic and peer reviewed. Please see it here: ( http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#The_Origin_of_the_Greeks.2C_Ph.D._thesis ) Also, I resent the accusation that Janelle4elle's account is a sock for my account. What are the rules for such accusations and how are they dealt with when they are baseless? I will demand a full IP investigation and a disclosure into who is making these allegations, including why Moreschi is stating this here. Can someone point me to the Misplaced Pages rule page about such accusations? Thank you.--Monshuai (talk) 09:35, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Fifelfoo, I am working as constructively as I can with you as stated on your talk page. I would prefer that you and I combine our expertise and interests in this field as a way to write better articles that cover the full spectrum of academic perspectives. I don't see how the work of a respected Greek anthropologist who is also the founder of the Greek Anthropological Association is causing this trouble. I believe you've stated that your problems with the work are that it was originally published in the USSR. However, I don't think that's a problem considering that Poulianos was not Soviet at the time, nor was he to my knoweldge affiliated with the Soviet Propaganda machine. --Monshuai (talk) 10:18, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
(unindenting) Nevertheless, Monshuai, the relevant thread at WP:RSN shows that the only person who explicitly states this thesis is a reliable source is you. Seeing how Poulis is, as you say, the founder of the Greek Anthropological Association, I recommend you follow Fifelfoo's advice: "I suggest you work out of Poulianos' modern writings, and, for that matter, look up modern anthropological review articles on the relevant ethnogeneses and assign weight out of those." Until then, I agree with the opinion that master & doctoral theses should not be considered reliable sources without additional evidence. -- llywrch (talk) 19:45, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Hi Llywrch, I have taken note of the perceived short comings of PhD theses papers and this is why I checked out Poulianos's published work on the same topic: The origin of the hellenes. An ethnogenetic inquiry. Aris N. Poulianos. 160 pp, 5 tables, 9 maps, 32 photographs. 1962. Morphosis Press, Athens. Originally published in 1960 by the Institute of Ethnography of the Academy of Sciences of the U. S. S. R., translated into Greek by the author with special assistance of Nikos Antonopoulos. I have read Poulianos's modern writings and cannot find him further investigating the specific topic I am currently investigating. The source above seems to meet Misplaced Pages requirements.--Monshuai (talk) 22:29, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
John Carter abusing his protect button
Resolved – talk page unprotected by John Carter -- Samir 03:42, 14 October 2009 (UTC)John Carter (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The above admin has abused his tools (particularly, the protect button) in order to prevent me from removing MY OWN COMMENTS from his talkpage. This has spun out of control from his mentorship of User:Mattisse, but this note is only about the narrower issue of his abuse of the protect tool to keep me from removing MY OWN COMMENTS from his talkpage. For the record, I open up my own contributions for scrutiny, in this narrow regard as well. UnitAnode 02:45, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Could an admin edit through the inappropriate protection to inform Carter of this thread? UnitAnode 02:47, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- While the protection may have been inappropriate, the admin in question has every right to remove comments posted to his own talk page, and if he asks that you stop posting there, you should respect his request. –Juliancolton | 02:48, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- That wasn't the issue, Julian. That's what makes it even more inappropriate. He was deceptive in his edit summary. I was most certainly not posting to his page. Rather I was trying to remove my own comments from there, since he was allowing Ottava Rima to make misrepresentational comments about me, but wasn't allowing me to respond. I tried to remove my initial comments, but he protected the page, and restored them. Way, way, WAY over the line of being inappropriate. I have no need to talk to him further, and have stated as much. I do reserve the right to remove my own comments from his page, though, and I think policy is on my side in this regard. UnitAnode 02:52, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- May have been? Get over yourself Julian. How is it that one editor is able to confer a level of protection on his talkpage that other editors cannot similarly apply to theirs. Irrespective of the merits of the dispute at hand, John should have sought the intervention of another administrator. This is the sort of stuff which provokes cries of "tool abuse". Crafty (talk) 02:54, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- I never endorsed JC's actions. –Juliancolton | 02:57, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Admins protecting their own user pages is generally seen as acceptable, in my experience. Admins tend to attract an inordinate amount of pissed-off people, so they're afforded that luxury. I don't really see any problem with it as long as it's done delicately. In this case the user should be allowed to remove his own comments from the admin's talk page. Equazcion (talk) 02:59, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- May have been? Get over yourself Julian. How is it that one editor is able to confer a level of protection on his talkpage that other editors cannot similarly apply to theirs. Irrespective of the merits of the dispute at hand, John should have sought the intervention of another administrator. This is the sort of stuff which provokes cries of "tool abuse". Crafty (talk) 02:54, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- That wasn't the issue, Julian. That's what makes it even more inappropriate. He was deceptive in his edit summary. I was most certainly not posting to his page. Rather I was trying to remove my own comments from there, since he was allowing Ottava Rima to make misrepresentational comments about me, but wasn't allowing me to respond. I tried to remove my initial comments, but he protected the page, and restored them. Way, way, WAY over the line of being inappropriate. I have no need to talk to him further, and have stated as much. I do reserve the right to remove my own comments from his page, though, and I think policy is on my side in this regard. UnitAnode 02:52, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Carter is now (and has been previously) accusing me of all manner of things. The genesis of this problem was at the Mattisse monitoring page, and started when I tried to clean up the clutter by moving it to the talkpage, per (what a I thought, mistakenly was) her request. It's just went dramatically crazy since that point, culminating in Carter's questioning my integrity, and eventually, his abuse of the protect button. UnitAnode 03:00, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- (7 ec's) The problem appears to be that you were removing your posts after they had received replies. By only leaving the replies, you leave them no longer making sense as they are out of context at that point. Per WP:REDACT, the better course would have been to strike out your comments. No comment on the appropriateness of using protect, just my opinion on why he restored the content. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 03:01, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- The protection was placed to prevent the ongoing, I have to say, harrasment by the editor who started this thread. For whatever reason, this individual has no on my talk page and another one, the other one being the one that started this recent burst of activity on his part, indicated that he has the right to do what he wants, and that others do not have the right to change it. The frankly dictatorial spirit of this editor is I believe deeply troubling, and his now repeated failure to abide by even the most basic standards of conduct is something I find deeply disturbing. Getting repeated messages from this editor after I had made it quite clear that he was not welcomee there, and having what I was doing interrupted by his regular violations of my request, with the accopanying "new messages" bar, particularly from such a dictatorial personality as this editor, is something I regret to say I could no longer abide by. If he didn't want the comments on the page, he should never have placed them there. And it was only after at least one presumptuous response to my request that he later deterined he had the right to continue to alter my page in other ways. Like I said, it struck me and still strikes me as a form of harassmen. I will remove the comments, as I have indicated on that user's talk page. However, he has to come to understand that his every whim is not in fact an absolute order to the rest of us, and to perhaps learn to behave more acceptably. I do however acknowledge my mistake, will unprotect the page, and do what I would have done had the editor in question approached me in a less demanding attitude. John Carter (talk) 03:04, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- I challenge anyone to find harassment in my encounters with Carter. I made this edit to show how the "banning" from Carter's page happened, in the anticipation that he would fling wild accusations of "harassment." Look for yourself. UnitAnode 03:08, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- I'd be curious to see diffs of the harassment/dictatorial attitude, but would also accept if anyone wanted to declare that the actual complaint here is now resolved. Equazcion (talk) 03:10, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Once an administrator leaves an official warning at Carter's talkpage about abusing the protect button, and my comments are removed (with perhaps an explanatory note explaining why I want them removed), it's resolved in my mind. Ottava Rima should not be allowed to comment on me, if I'm not allowed to respond. UnitAnode 03:12, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Also, he needs to cut the whole "dicatorial" nonsense, as it -- in my view -- crosses the line into personal attacks. UnitAnode 03:14, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Warnings are not punitive, so there would be no point in warning him now. John has already admitted fault. Equazcion (talk) 03:15, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- That's true. My main concern now is with his accusations that I am somehow "dictatorial." It crosses the line, in my view. UnitAnode 03:18, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Warnings are not punitive, so there would be no point in warning him now. John has already admitted fault. Equazcion (talk) 03:15, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- I'd be curious to see diffs of the harassment/dictatorial attitude, but would also accept if anyone wanted to declare that the actual complaint here is now resolved. Equazcion (talk) 03:10, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- I shall warn John not to use the term "dictatorial". Since the page is now unprotected, are we all resolved here now? -- Samir 03:20, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
The point of warnings is to inform, and John Carter clearly has been informed, so that shouldn't be needed. If you wish, you can strike out your comment, but its his talk page - he can keep anything you said there there, so long as he isn't misrepresenting what you said. I'll ignore the "dictatorial" comment, I suggest everyone else does too. Regardless of if John considers your actions dictatorial, or if you consider his protection dictatorial, the situation is the same regarding what each of you can - and can't - do. Prodego 03:21, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Shouldn't accusations such as "harassment" or being "dictatorial" be bolstered by diffs or withdrawn? I've not called his action dictatorial, I just said it was a misuse of that tool. I'm not making any assertions about Carter's essential character, which he seems to be doing toward me with his accusations. UnitAnode 03:25, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- One other unresolved concern is with whether usertalkpage rules allow me to remove my own comments. I'd be willing to leave a note there explaining my reason for doing so, but I hardly think it fair or reasonable that Rima is allowed to make misrepresentations about me there, but I'm banned from responding. UnitAnode 03:26, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- I agree with Prodego. You can ask John Carter to remove the comments, but there's a way to do it. As WP:REDACT indicates, you do not have a "right" to remove those comments, and John Carter can either keep or remove as he thinks is appropriate. This issue is resolved as far as AN/I is concerned. ≈ Chamal ¤ 03:27, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- I've not been incivil to him, though I've had ample opportunity. I was unaware that I don't have a right to remove my own comments from a talkpage. UnitAnode 03:30, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- I wasn't accusing you of incivility, but merely pointing out how it should be done (if you want the other party to respond positively). ≈ Chamal ¤ 03:33, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- As he's -- for reasons only he truly knows -- banned me from his talkpage, accusing me of all manner of things, without a shred of proof, there's little chance of my approaching him at all, whether in a civil or incivil manner. UnitAnode 03:36, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- I wasn't accusing you of incivility, but merely pointing out how it should be done (if you want the other party to respond positively). ≈ Chamal ¤ 03:33, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- I've not been incivil to him, though I've had ample opportunity. I was unaware that I don't have a right to remove my own comments from a talkpage. UnitAnode 03:30, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- I agree with Prodego. You can ask John Carter to remove the comments, but there's a way to do it. As WP:REDACT indicates, you do not have a "right" to remove those comments, and John Carter can either keep or remove as he thinks is appropriate. This issue is resolved as far as AN/I is concerned. ≈ Chamal ¤ 03:27, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- He's still at it, with his veiled implications that I'm lying when I say I don't have any history with Mattisse. I have asked him to stop several times, but he persists with his "suspicions." This needs to stop, as it colors the perception people have of administrators when they act in the erratic manner in which Carter has conducted himself over the last 18 hours or so. UnitAnode 14:03, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
WP:NPA
When have we ever allowed someone to make blanket statements about another without providing evidence? The talk page is unprotected, but I still see an underlying issue which hasn't been solved.— Dædαlus 08:29, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- I really don't. Questioning another editor's motives & edits isn't a personal attack, and I don't see anything in that last link above (the archived section) that qualifies. — The Hand That Feeds You: 14:48, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
Reinstatement of TWINKLE
Hello. Recently the user Hesperian blacklisted me from TWINKLE, a move which I believe unwarranted. Hesperian provided reasons for doing so, and I countered them. The conversations are at User:Nezzadar/tools/Hesperian box. I also believe that I have done far more good with TWINKLE then bad, and that rather than block me, he should have been more willing to talk about my contributions.
I strongly believe that Hesperian is abusing his admin privelages and acted in an inappropriate manner when dealing with me on several occasions, and at the very least, think he is unqualified to take any actions against me because of his previous involvement against me. The fact that his comments were harsh and were phrased in a way as to provoke a flame war with me also adds a disturbing layer to the equasion.
Someone please help me! Nezzadar (speak) 05:53, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Just to be clear, we're probably not talking about the Geology of Mars, but User:Hesperian. Equazcion (talk) 05:58, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Good catch, fixed. Nezzadar (speak) 06:02, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
I mean this in the best possible way, and I am not trying to be mean. Your responses here: User:Nezzadar/tools/Hesperian box are inadequate and I don't think you understand that. I have reviewed each of the diffs in question and I think you are in the wrong for each of them. I agree with Hesperian that your use of automated tools has led to reversion of good faith edits as vandalism, biting the newcomers, and restoring of copyright, and I think that revocation of TWINKLE was appropriate. Calculating a batting average does not cut it when there are several egregious examples of inappropriate use of automated tools. You now have three people (Orderinchaos, Hesperian and me) telling you that your use of automated tools has not been up to par. As opposed to accusing Hesperian of admin abuse, I would take the time to review how the actions that you took were errant before requesting use of WP:TWINKLE again -- Samir 06:18, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) I looked over some of the complaints and responses. Unfortunately I have to agree with the decision to blacklist, however I'd recommend that you be granted access again after a break, during which time you should build up evidence that you've changed your habits. The things I think need changing are your dealings with new editors, and your dealing with stubs. In many of those cases, you really should have opened a dialog with those editors in order to determine their motives, rather than just using whichever Twinkle tool best suited the situation. As far as your views on stubs, you need to understand that those are your views, and that Misplaced Pages allows "publish-as-you-go", regardless of how "unprofessional" you consider that practice to be. Also, this is a little unrelated, but creating these kinds of messages for regular use really doesn't help your case. If you can show at some point that your practices have changed, then I would have no issue with your being allowed access to Twinkle again. Equazcion (talk) 06:21, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
The link Nezzadar provides is a quarter of the story, carefully excised from the context and from the edit history, and placed in a little box especially so he can link to it here. See below for the actual, full story, supported by diffs:
Nezzadar came to my attention after he used Twinkle to simultaneously nominate for deletion nine articles by the same newb—a hideous case of newb biting. Read about it here and here.
Having cleaned up that mess, Nezzadar's talk page was on my watchlist; hence I noticed when someone took him to task for tagging a perfectly good stub as vandalism, and I noticed his grossly inappropriate response. Read about it here and here.
Having warned him to slow down and use Twinkle more carefully, I kept half an eye on him for a day, in which time he rolled back an obviously good faith edit as vandalism, reported an obviously good-faith account as a vandalism-only account, and, when challenged, treated his challengers like this!
Considering the extreme and ongoing false accusations and assumptions of bad faith, I think Nezzadar should be thankful that I assumed good faith of him, and acted on the assumption that the problem is his Twinkle use, not just him.
Hesperian 06:32, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- User:Nezzadar, your talk page guidelines veer off into wp:bite territory in a number of places. I also agree that this is unacceptable, no matter who you are responding to, vandal or otherwise. Frustrating editors come in many shapes and sizes, some productive and constructive, some not, and some somewhere in between. In all of these situations, civility and patience are key, especially when you're venturing into an area of work in which any of us can far too easily alienate a potentially invaluable contributor from the project through one biting "welcome." I would really encourage you to look again at the concerns raised by User:Hesperian, and work towards understanding how to better handle those sorts of situations, before you dive back in with a tool like Twinkle. user:J aka justen (talk) 06:38, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- One need only look at the edit summaries on Nezzadar's contributions and his dismissal of anyone who asks him questions or wants to know what they did wrong, to see why this person should *not* be a first point of contact for new users. People have different strengths - some people are not born communicators but are great at something else - and I believe that is the case here too. Orderinchaos 07:30, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Fully agree. Nezzadar needs to calm down a bit and read up on WP:BITE and WP:AGF. Most editors are here with good intent. There are mechanisms to deal with those who aren't. Newby editors make newby mistakes - not wikilinking, bare urls in refs (if they provide them) etc. What is needed there is gentle guidance rather than biting people's heads off. The first bulleted paragraph on his talk page is a bit concerning.
- Nezzadar, there must be at least one subject that interests you. There is probably a Wikiproject covering that subject. I feel it would benifit you to join a Wikiproject as it would give you experience in working with other editors on something. You come across as someone who is a self-appointed police force for Misplaced Pages who thinks that their word is law. Sorry, Misplaced Pages doesn't work that way. This isn't criticism for the sake of it, but aimed at improving your contributions to Misplaced Pages and prevention of you ending up with a block (no, I'm not threatening to block you, just pointing out one possible outcome of your editing and interaction with other editors). Mjroots (talk) 07:50, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- I recently had the misfortune of encountering this admin-hopeful as well. I've been editing as an anon for about three years and occasionally get flak from RCPers who don't understand what I'm trying to do, but usually after a conversation they come to a bit of understanding with me. This guy told me that essentially he doesn't have to understand me or AGF because I choose not to edit with an account. I have many thousands of edits to my credit, and yet this editor saw a pattern and made a judgement call without looking into what was really going on. I was blocked once in 2007 without warning, and have had warnings here and there for this and that, but I'd like to think any mistakes and misunderstandings don't outweigh my positive contributions. 204.153.84.10 (talk) 11:42, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Oh man, that is a shocking response. Blaming you for not having an account for their own mistakes and coming up with crap like this ?! This goes to show a lot of the problems we have with dealing with good faith IP contributions. From looking through the warnings on your page, there are a lot of dubious characterisations of vandalism, and not just from User:Nezzadar. This highlights some of the problems we have in dealing with good faith IP contributors. Quantpole (talk) 12:57, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- I recently had the misfortune of encountering this admin-hopeful as well. I've been editing as an anon for about three years and occasionally get flak from RCPers who don't understand what I'm trying to do, but usually after a conversation they come to a bit of understanding with me. This guy told me that essentially he doesn't have to understand me or AGF because I choose not to edit with an account. I have many thousands of edits to my credit, and yet this editor saw a pattern and made a judgement call without looking into what was really going on. I was blocked once in 2007 without warning, and have had warnings here and there for this and that, but I'd like to think any mistakes and misunderstandings don't outweigh my positive contributions. 204.153.84.10 (talk) 11:42, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- mentor...Could
Hesperianor another admin/experienced editor mentor User:Nezzadar on the use of twinkle?It may be too early infarct for you User:Nezzadar to use twinkle.Ecoman24 (talk page) 11:04, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- mentor...Could
- You are joking right? Suggesting that an admin who this user incorrectly accused of admin abuse would have any chance of mentoring this user? This suggestion is dangerously close to trolling as are some of your other recent suggestions on ANI and I would suggest you thought about finding ways to deescalate disputes rather then pouring petrol on the flames. Spartaz 11:51, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Humbug!, i made it clear, an admin or experienced editor to mentor User:Nezzadar. This is about helping each other contribute positively. I hope this is good. I have since edited my comments above, and will not say anything on this case. I remain neutral on this case. thank you. Ecoman24 (talk page) 12:02, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- In my experience a mentor for issues like this rarely works. Verbal chat 12:16, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- For a mentor to work, the person has to acknowledge that there may be an issue - like the old sociology joke "how many sociologists does it take to change a lightbulb? One, but the lightbulb has to want to change". Bringing this situation to ANI, and any continued arguments that they "did nothing wrong" would show that mentoring would be a failure. We'll see what happens when the wake up (literally, and figuratively). (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 12:22, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- I think you meant to write psychiatrists or psychologists. Sociologists would only study the behavior of societies whose purpose is to change lightbulbs. (So just how many sociologists would it take to change a lightbulb...?) -- llywrch (talk) 19:55, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- For a mentor to work, the person has to acknowledge that there may be an issue - like the old sociology joke "how many sociologists does it take to change a lightbulb? One, but the lightbulb has to want to change". Bringing this situation to ANI, and any continued arguments that they "did nothing wrong" would show that mentoring would be a failure. We'll see what happens when the wake up (literally, and figuratively). (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 12:22, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
I see the writing on the wall here. Let me just say one thing though. If any of you think you never did something reprehensible, just tell me. I'm sure everyone makes mistakes. I have over 1000 edits. He found 8 bad ones. Even 20 bad edits is 0.05%.
So maybe I'm harsh, but I was harsh before TWINKLE and I'll be harsh after TWINKLE. I have an overarching policy against tolerating stupidity. Repeated experience has shown me that AGF doesn't work with IP addresses. The vast majority of bad edits not using accounts are decidedly malicious.
If you want to stick your head in the sand and pretend that there's good faith where there overwhelmingly isn't, feel free to do so. I won't. If you want to stick your head in the sand and pretend that being civil all the time will miraculously stop people from doing bad things, go ahead. I won't. Have fun cleaning up the crap that fools throw at Misplaced Pages. I'm done with TWINKLE. I'm sure of that.
Heck, feel free to follow me around, assume bad faith in my edits, and point them out in an equally abrasive way, go ahead. Hesperian has been doing that since before this began. Oh and Hesperian, you might have the support of other admins, but if you think that you made no mistakes in this, you are lying to yourself. Your comments were pretty much designed to spark flames. You accused me of being abrasive while being abrasive yourself. Stop following me, I'm sure you have something better to do with your time.
Whatever. It's your problem now. Have fun. Nezzadar (speak) 13:51, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- *sigh* That was not the answer I expected from a respected editor. Re-read the purpose of the tool. Hell, we remove rollback for only a couple of minor transgressions - why would Twinkle be any different - and it's usually only temporary? Because you generally do good work does not ever give you carte blanche to bite, and otherwise use it wrongly. I implore you to re-think your position. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 14:24, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- For you, anything. Concidering that respect was the one thing I wasn't getting throughout this entire process, it's refreshing for someone to finally imply that my contributions to Misplaced Pages have at least some value. No one ever notices the good work, they only yell at you for the bad. Between you and me, I didn't start biting until being bitten, hard, a couple days ago. I can be civil. I am offline, just about always, but I don't respond well when people flame me, and I have the unfortunate habit of flaming back. Also, you are the first one to say anything about "temporary" which is part of the reason that I responded so harshly so quickly. If I can get it back in a few weeks, I wouldn't mind as much as losing it forever. I've learned the lesson and I have no problem serving time, but I'd like to have my rights restored eventually, and that didn't look like a possibility until now. Nezzadar (speak) 15:35, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Note During my initial read through, the edit marked with edit conflict did not appear to have been present, hence the above message. Nezzadar (speak) 15:40, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
Closing? Remarks
I'm in the middle of writing a paper now, but when I'm done I intend on cleaning up the guidelines on my talk page so that they are less biting. I'll give this matter a rest of about two weeks and then poll the admins about the edits I made. I doubt I'll ever earn back your trust and respect, but I do intend on earning back TW. And I do mean earning. Concsider this to be a formal apology to the editors I have wronged. I'll try and be nicer from now on. Just don't push me too hard, okay? Nezzadar (speak) 15:47, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Sounds like a plan, Nezzadar. Good luck! --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 15:50, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- It's all good, and yes, good luck! 204.153.84.10 (talk) 16:05, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
Nom withdrawn closure
ResolvedShii (tock) 18:09, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
Could someone swing by and close Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/As a Peace-Loving Global Citizen. The lister closed it without my objection, but then changed his mind and wants someone else to close it instead.--Crossmr (talk) 08:18, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Speedy close due to nomination withdrawn really only applies if there is no other editors argues for deletion. So this would have to be a snow closure. Taemyr (talk) 08:30, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- look at the page history. It was actually closed before the IP editor added that, and I have a problem believing that is a good faith oppose considering the amount of reliable sources I provided prior to his oppose, and considering that the nom was withdrawn and the AfD closed prior to him making that comment.--Crossmr (talk) 12:00, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
Ecoman24 needs guidance
Resolved – Mentoring offered by Skater EyeSerene 17:56, 14 October 2009 (UTC)You'll have seen Ecoman24 posting to ANI. Please take a look at their contribution history, especially those around the Misplaced Pages Sandbox. I'm not suitable for helping this person. (I'm just about to inform them of this post.) NotAnIP83:149:66:11 (talk) 12:28, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- what? this is interesting, contributing to sandbox? sorry in error, testing sandbox. Ecoman24 (talk page) 12:32, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Any one is free to give me impartial advise. I will read. I will set up a school page called user:Ecoman24/MySchool. feel free to post anything there. hope this is enough response. any other response will be answered in the same way as above. please, don't take it personal. Ecoman24 (talk page) 12:37, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Huh? What? Anyone got an English translation of this thread? one that includes Diffs, some explanation of what the problem is, some explanation of what admin action is required? --Cameron Scott (talk) 12:50, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Ecoman24 has put the WP sandbox up for speedy deletion as a nonsense page. He's reverting edits to the sandox as vandalism. He's asked for the sandox to be page protected. He's made many contribs to ANI, and most of them are "sub-optimal". Diffs are useful, but letting you find them avoids me being accused of selecting a few bad diffs from many good contribs, and allows others to see the scale of the problem. Really, a quick look through his contribs should show anyone the problem. NotAnIP83:149:66:11 (talk) 13:26, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- lots of people have been up the sandbox up for speedy delete as a nonsense page, I think I did it when I first got here - because it's an em.. sandbox for em.. testing purposes. Diffs are useful yes they are and it's telling you are unable to provide them. So I'll ask again, please provide DIFFS that shows a specific problem and please explain what *specific* action you are looking for. You make a report here, you need to do the legwork. --Cameron Scott (talk) 13:34, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- You may have tagged the sandbox, but did you also put it up for page protection? I've made it clear that admin attention is maybe not needed, but this page is watched by enough people who will be willing to provide help and support to this editor before his editing becomes a problem that gets him blocked. You don't want to do the work (of look at contribs (many of which are problematic) or at talk page history (blanking discussion of problems) or at old accounts (abandoned for some odd reason)); that's fine. Feel free to leave this report to other editors, some of whom have noticed him on ANI making odd edits. NotAnIP83:149:66:11 (talk) 15:59, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- I'll actually see what I can find out. I've noticed him on ANI lately, closing threads that were not finished, giving improper or incorrect advice (I've seen him on more than one occasion tell an IP user on ANI to sign up for an account...at one point threatening a block). He's clearly trying to help, but since he's new here...it's hard to help when you don't know how things work. Give me a little bit... --Smashville 13:42, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
Here we go...some of these have been covered already...
- - Requesting semi-protect on WP:SANDBOX
- - Tagging WP:SANDBOX as a G1.
- - Claims that userpages may only be blanked by an admin.
- - Marking an unresolved ANI thread as resolved.
- - "don't you think it would be good to sign up for a wiki user name?"
- - Another premature "resolved".
- - Yet another premature "resolved".
- - Incorrect "resolved".
- - "could you please stop using multiple IP address as your main user names? you risk been blocked".
He's obviously a little overambitious...he needs an experienced mentor... --Smashville 14:04, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Ahem, I don't know how "Experienced" you want (bit over 3000 edits) for me, but I'd like to volunteer to mentor him.--SKATER 14:46, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- I did a little checking on you...you look like a good one. Sounds like a plan to me if Ecoman is willing. --Smashville 15:30, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- And, only joking a little bit, a CU might be in order... that's an all-too familiar name. Tan | 39 15:52, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Who for? Ecoman24? They declare a previous account on their userpage, but they also ask people not to mention the name, and they blank reference to it. So, uh, I don't know what the protocol is here. NotAnIP83:149:66:11 (talk) 17:52, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- And, only joking a little bit, a CU might be in order... that's an all-too familiar name. Tan | 39 15:52, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- I did a little checking on you...you look like a good one. Sounds like a plan to me if Ecoman is willing. --Smashville 15:30, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Ahem, I don't know how "Experienced" you want (bit over 3000 edits) for me, but I'd like to volunteer to mentor him.--SKATER 14:46, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- I think the all of this subject came up by accident. YES, i tagged sandbox up for deletion. could you delete it please? perhaps this is the best ever response i can give. thanks guys. I am learning to be a good editor, if any one wish to mentor mean, yes, go for it. there is a school page you may use. the link is user:Ecoman24/MySchool. Even the newest editor may help me. I ve been studying wiki recently. My contribution at ANI is to help solve some disputes peacefully. I won't tell you what i do in my day to day life. thanks guys. thanks NotAnIP83:149:66:11 for bringing up this discussion. Ecoman24 (talk page) 16:16, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Honestly, tagging the Sandbox, maybe testing Twinkle etc on the Sandbox is perfectly valid IMHO. We all know that nobody will be deleting it (of course, removing the tags is the next step, if you're really testing). Closing ANI cases is not really helpful by someone who doesn't understand process to begin with, so that is the only issue that I see needing immediate help. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 16:21, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- point taken. Ecoman24 (talk page) 16:27, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Sent the Mentor request, looking forward to his answer.--SKATER 17:46, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Thanks Skater, and my apologies to all that I hadn't noticed this thread when I left Ecoman24 a note regarding their contributions further up this page. I think their heart is in the right place, so with some guidance they'll hopefully become a fine asset to t'pedia. EyeSerene 17:54, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Honestly, tagging the Sandbox, maybe testing Twinkle etc on the Sandbox is perfectly valid IMHO. We all know that nobody will be deleting it (of course, removing the tags is the next step, if you're really testing). Closing ANI cases is not really helpful by someone who doesn't understand process to begin with, so that is the only issue that I see needing immediate help. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 16:21, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Fair enough. Please can someone mark this as closed or whatever? Thank you. NotAnIP83:149:66:11 (talk) 17:52, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Offer by Skater taken up. thanks every one. Ecoman24 (talk page) 22:48, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
Copyright concerns, User:Pr3st0n
Asked to help Pr3st0n with copyright issues after his recent RfA (in which I did not participate), I discovered evidence of considerable copyright confusion in that he had copied content from many websites into the article Lostock Hall (see User_talk:Pr3st0n/Archived2#Copyright_problems.2C_Lostock_Hall). He addressed this, but yesterday I was made aware of some image issues. Some of these also arise from copyright confusion (he evidently believed if he purchased an image, he could license it), but I need review of one set of images that raise questions of intent.
- On 18 September 2009, Pr3st0n uploaded this image, with the note that it was "A photo of Lostock Hall library which I took in 2008."
- This image is identical in every respect that I can see to that at the official website. Note, please, that it seems to show a plain brick facade.
- On 4 October 2009, he uploaded this one, with a note that it is "Lostock Hall Library as it looks in 2009 after some minor exterior paint work."
- This image is identical (down to the vehicles in the parking lot and the reflections in the windows) to one published under full copyright by David Scott here on September 25, 2007. Note the paintwork, which would suggest the picture with what seems to be a plain brick facade may be older. (According to Pr3st0n,the paint may have peeled and been redone.)
The metadata of the image on wikipedia dates it to 13:36, 25 September 2007--the same date it was uploaded to the other site, but Pr3st0n says that this is just the way it is with his camera. According to him, the van is perpetually parked there.
He also uploaded File:Todd Hall-2009.jpg on Commons, with an indication that he is the photographer. This picture is identical down to the shadows to another by David Scott, also uploaded in 2007: . His summary suggests he took the photo on 04 October 2009, but the metadata also dates to September 2007. Note that in spite of an evident difference of two years, even the flowers are the same.
Questioned about these images, Pr3st0n asserts that he is the photographer and that similarities are coincidental, possibly attributable to standing in the same place.
I do not work much with images, but these seem clearly to be the same pictures to me. I hope somebody can clear this up and prove that I am wrong. But, if they are the same, again, we would now be dealing with intentional copyright deception rather than plausible misunderstanding. Since I have worked somewhat extensively with this contributor, I would appreciate fresh admin eyes to determine what might be the best handling of this. --Moonriddengirl 13:54, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- The Todd Hall image, and its counterpart on panoramio, have identical md5 sums; they are exactly the same file. It is utterly impossible that these these are anything other than exactly the same image. Even two images taken off a tripod a fraction of a second apart would have different md5sums. -- Finlay McWalter • Talk 14:02, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- And the two library pictures are md5 identical too. There is no possible coincidence where these two pictures could be taken by different people. -- Finlay McWalter • Talk 14:08, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Hmm, Seems that the first thing we need to do is to stop the problem getting any worse. Any other admins comfortable with an admin sanction being issued to Pr3st0n preventing the uploading of images to Misplaced Pages? (Can we sanction Commons uploads too, or would that need a Commons Admin?). Mjroots (talk) 14:10, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) He has made unambiguous and deliberate statements that he took these pictures, statements that are clearly and willfully false. Given the thoroughness of Moonriddengirl's questioning of him, any claim that this is an accident or a misunderstanding of copyright isn't possible; he's done it on purpose. He should be immediately, and permanently, blocked. -- Finlay McWalter • Talk 14:17, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- (e/c) Agreed that it is 100% impossible that those two sets of photos aren't identical. User:Pr3st0n needs to review what happened to another editor who made a similar mistake; lying, and then getting caught up in the coverup to the lie. The time to come clean and be honest about this is in his very next post to Misplaced Pages; an attempt to spin another lie should be met with an indef block. Intentional deceit is about the worst thing you can do in an encyclopedia, and there will be very serious consequences if he doesn't own up right now. (Also, it's a bit insulting that he thinks we're this stupid, but that's a separate issue I suppose). --Floquenbeam (talk) 14:14, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- (e/c)Oh, very comfortable. The pictures are identical down to the cloud positions. No way were those pictures taken at the same place at different times. His lying through his teeth might indicate a need for outright blocking, instead of just sanctioning. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 14:16, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Additionally, Pr3stOn states that File:Lostocks hall.JPG "was taken by myself; and although it looks identical to the photo shown on the website you supplied, I can indeed stipulate that it isn't." He stipulates that it is only coincidence. Yet a comparison with the website photo indicates they are indeed identical - down to the exact sticks and leaves in the foreground driveway. — CactusWriter | 14:19, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- I agree, this user is evidently now engaged not only in a series of copyright violations, but also in building up a large web of lies to cover it up. If there should be anything exceptionally valuable in his non-image contributions, we might do just a permanent ban on image uploads (including a ban on inserting images he uploaded on commons, and a notice to commons admins they should keep an eye out on him); if not, block for lengthy period of time. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:23, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Yes, I think preventing further damage must be the correct first response (not sure about commons), though I'd also support stronger measures if necessary. There's no question that the images are not merely coincidentally similar, but as Finlay says, the exact same file. Pr3st0n should be seriously considering their next move at this point. EyeSerene 14:25, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Sanction to be issued (indefinite ban on uploading images to Misplaced Pages) and logged at WP:RESTRICT then? Mjroots (talk) 14:33, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- As a first response, yes. I can't conceive of any mitigating explanation, but if there is one I'd like to hear it before we decide if a further response is necessary. EyeSerene 14:35, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- This is intentional deceit, as Floquenbeam stated above. I'm sorry, but a ban on image uploading isn't going to solve the problem. Deceit doesn't restrict itself to one category. Lies are lies, and these are out-and-out damn lies. I almost just did it myself, but decided to comment here instead. Block immediately. Tan | 39 14:39, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Actually, so did I on first reading the thread; it wouldn't be the first editor I've indeffed for causing copyvio problems. I believe we may well end up there yet, but with this amount of attention they aren't likely to do any damage so I don't think there's any rush. They haven't edited for a few hours, so they probably aren't even onsite at the moment. However, what I think we mustn't do is allow this to drag on too long without resolution; perhaps after (say) 24 hours we should just indef and move on. EyeSerene 14:56, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- This is intentional deceit, as Floquenbeam stated above. I'm sorry, but a ban on image uploading isn't going to solve the problem. Deceit doesn't restrict itself to one category. Lies are lies, and these are out-and-out damn lies. I almost just did it myself, but decided to comment here instead. Block immediately. Tan | 39 14:39, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Go for it, Mjroots. We can straighten out any changed details after we hear an explanation. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 14:42, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Sanction issued, logged at WP:RESTRICT. Mjroots (talk) 14:47, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Tan, let Pr3st0n at least have a chance to respond to this thread before we take any further action. Does the accused not have a right to be heard? Mjroots (talk) 14:49, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Sure, notice I have not taken any admin actions. Tan | 39 14:50, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Tan, let Pr3st0n at least have a chance to respond to this thread before we take any further action. Does the accused not have a right to be heard? Mjroots (talk) 14:49, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Sanction issued, logged at WP:RESTRICT. Mjroots (talk) 14:47, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- As a first response, yes. I can't conceive of any mitigating explanation, but if there is one I'd like to hear it before we decide if a further response is necessary. EyeSerene 14:35, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Sanction to be issued (indefinite ban on uploading images to Misplaced Pages) and logged at WP:RESTRICT then? Mjroots (talk) 14:33, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
Pr3st0n's on, and claims he can't edit here for some reason. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 14:55, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Well, certainly not because of anything I did. He says "AfD" on his talk page - I think maybe he should just try again. Tan | 39 14:57, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- I tried to and comment to this, and it wouldn't let me; I was being shown a "block" message - which was confusing to be honest. The image is of my own; I already informed that this image was part of a project to create a web-group for the pub which I was working at between December 2007 - December 2008; and image taken by myself, for my own purposes. So I cannot see why this is a problem. I would like to stipulate that I am not "digging holes to get out of lying". I am an honest person, and have been brought up by my parents to do so. So to make such accusations is out of order; I would never make such accusations to any user on matters like this. Treat others how you expect to be treated in return - that policy sound familiar to any of you? yes, right now I do feel a little angry at the statements made, and the fact that User:Moonriddengirl and myself were in the process of working this out; is shocking to find the same user "back-stabbing" me in such a humiliating manner - an action to which I would never do to any person, whether on the Internet or in reality. To back-stab someone is a shameful act, and one that should be dealt with cautiously. I can clarify that the Todd Hall image, despite their identicalness, are not the same. If it is to please people, I shall revisit the site and obtain a new photograph of this building, along with any other images that you state look "identical". That was one of the options I was about to put forward to User:Moonriddengirl in our disccusion about this matter... pending on her reply to my previous question (to which she hasn't replied to yet). So to ban myself from uploading images, is shameful on your behalves. I was working cooperatively with User:Moonriddengirl to come up with some resolution on this matter so that no such sanctions would ever take place. I am in the process of undergoing "adoption" assignments, and slowly but surely cover each policy step-by-step. I would appreciate that I am able to continue with my assignments, and also be allowed to rectify the images matter, by obtaining new ones (taken by myself I would like to add), so that a full and mutual resolution can take place. Pr3st0n (talk) 14:59, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Just to be clear: your stance is still that the Todd Hall images, despite having an identical md5 sums, are not the same? Tan | 39 15:02, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Blocked indef.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 15:03, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Agree with block. Flagrant denial in the face of indisputable evidence. At least this guy came clean when we essentially caught him with his hand in the cookie jar. Tan | 39 15:05, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Thank you, all, for feedback and assistance. :/ I would have hoped this wouldn't be necessary, but given what looks like copyright fraud, I don't know what else we can do. --Moonriddengirl 15:07, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Concur. We simply can't trust any of the images he's uploaded; we should delete them all. Those that have compatible licences (or whose real owners we can reasonably approach), such as the geograph ones, we can re-upload with a fully compliant provenance. Much credit is owed Moonriddengirl for her level-headed tenacity in pursuing this. -- Finlay McWalter • Talk 15:07, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Any Geograph images should be uploaded to Commons. Details on my user page for those who don't know about these Wiki-compatible images. Mjroots (talk) 15:18, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Agree with block. Flagrant denial in the face of indisputable evidence. At least this guy came clean when we essentially caught him with his hand in the cookie jar. Tan | 39 15:05, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
Hrm. So this user says he took the pic, which is of a place he used to work at. Is it possible that the Pub is actually the one who is using his image, and not the other way around? Left them copies once upon a time, perhaps? Tarc (talk) 15:25, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- I considered that might be the case, but it's not just one place -- the images are claimed by several other photographers, none of whom match the name on Pr3st0n's userpage.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 15:27, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Note that the picture of the pub, too, is not discussed in my listing. It is a separate issue. --Moonriddengirl 15:28, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- In addition, it's not up to us to create whatever implausible scenario might have happened. If there is a valid explanation, Pre3st0n can provide it. Tan | 39 15:29, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
I have deleted File:LostockHallLibrary.jpg and initiated discussion at the Commons administrators' noticeboard, with a link to this discussion. Awaiting input from the editor and colleagues at Commons before taking other actions there. Regarding en:wiki, recommend a preventive indefinite block unless he admits the problem and assists with cleanup. Durova 15:31, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Commons discussion is at this thread. Mjroots (talk) 15:37, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Commons likes to reach its own internal decisions about site management. Durova 15:52, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
FYI, the md5 sum for File:Lostocks hall.JPG is identical to this, published here, as noted in the CSD tag for the image. (For posterity, the md5 sum is d14a6efe99fd863f9d53c69484ef611f.) I am avoiding deleting the image - even under CSD - due to past involvement with User:Pr3st0n. Frank | talk 16:11, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Pr3st0n has been given considerable help from MoonRiddenGirl. Frank also offered a lot of help, but was met with an odd reaction. Pr3ston is either acting maliciously, and thus needs to be blocked, or is never going to get it, and thus needs some kind of fierce restriction. All contribs (text and images) are suspect and will need checking. All comments from pr3ston about sources and licences are suspect, and need to be checked carefully for accuracy and truth. Certainly lying about sources of images which are in copyright should be blockable NotAnIP83:149:66:11 (talk) 16:52, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- He's just provided an explanation. This is no judgment as to whether it's a satisfactory explanation, just an explanation that finally addresses the question head-on, at least. Equazcion (talk) 16:58, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- The editor has been blocked indefinitely. Although I've offered him one final chance at explanation, it's probably safe to say that this has entered cleanup phase. Suggest deletion of all locally hosted uploads by this user; there's just no way to guarantee that anything is legitimate. Looks like there will be a text copyvio cleanup too. Many thanks to Moonriddengirl for her exceptional diligence and patience (yet again--the latest of many). Durova 17:18, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- He's just provided an explanation. This is no judgment as to whether it's a satisfactory explanation, just an explanation that finally addresses the question head-on, at least. Equazcion (talk) 16:58, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
Remaining images
Several images remain hosted at en:wiki that were uploaded by this user. Would someone who has local sysop rights at en:wiki please review? Durova 17:55, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Although he states that permission should have been emailed to WP, without an OTRS ticket number we can't verify that so I've deleted File:WatkinLaneUMFC.jpg, File:Our Lady of Lourdes and Saint Gerard Majella Church.jpg and File:StJames, lostock hall.jpg just to be on the safe side. I'm not sure about the remaining three (File:Lostock Hall 10D MPD 27-07-68.jpg, File:Disused site of LHMPD.jpg and File:Map of Lostock Hall, 1892.jpg). I've made a quick run through Google comparing the photos and can't find any indications of further copyvio, but you're more familiar with this stuff that I am. Your thoughts? EyeSerene 18:11, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- 2nd one is on commons as well. Third one should be pd if the date is accurate. I can't read the map closely enough to tell. First one might be a copyvio, but I can't find a source online. Protonk (talk) 18:17, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Please double check before posting. That file has been deleted from Commons. PD-1923 material originally published in the UK is not necessarily compliant with Commons hosting policy. At any rate, all of this particular user's uploads that were hosted at Commons have been deleted. We have no reason to trust this editor's assertions. Durova 18:39, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Note also that no source is given for the "1892" map. Is there any guarantee that wasn't made in 1952? Durova 18:49, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- No, there isn't. Just making statements about the remaining (at the time) pictures. I'm not declaring that they are pd or ok based on those statements. Protonk (talk) 21:16, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Actually I had completed nuking the Commons file and blocked the editor before starting the subthread (a first: I'd never blocked anyone before at other WMF projects). Durova 00:23, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- No, there isn't. Just making statements about the remaining (at the time) pictures. I'm not declaring that they are pd or ok based on those statements. Protonk (talk) 21:16, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Note also that no source is given for the "1892" map. Is there any guarantee that wasn't made in 1952? Durova 18:49, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Please double check before posting. That file has been deleted from Commons. PD-1923 material originally published in the UK is not necessarily compliant with Commons hosting policy. At any rate, all of this particular user's uploads that were hosted at Commons have been deleted. We have no reason to trust this editor's assertions. Durova 18:39, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- According to Pr3st0n, the first one belonged to his grandfather, but it is also at this website under the same title. Pr3st0n also claims on his talk page that File:47008, Lostock Hall MPD, 25th March 1964.jpg on commons belonged to his grandfather. Strangely, it was uploaded in 2006 by another contributor. I don't know what to make of that. It has also been tagged for speedy deletion as a copyvio, but not in connection to this. --Moonriddengirl 18:24, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- 2nd one is on commons as well. Third one should be pd if the date is accurate. I can't read the map closely enough to tell. First one might be a copyvio, but I can't find a source online. Protonk (talk) 18:17, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- I was just looking at the dates for those two uploads; I believe the steamtube.ning.com upload precedes the WP one? EyeSerene 18:35, 14 October 2009 (UTC) Just noticed you've removed it :) EyeSerene 18:36, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- The version on the website is the identical scan, but was uploaded earlier and is of higher resolution. Plus the version uploaded by Pr3st0n is identical to the one auto-generated by the website from the larger original. It seems a very safe bet that the version uploaded by Pr3st0n was downloaded from there. Whether or not it was originally at commons is a different question. - Bilby (talk) 18:40, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- I have deleted the File:Disused site of LHMPD.jpg following its deletion at commons as a copyright violation. Given the obvious copyvios on the other photos, it is prudent to suspect all uploads by the editor. Unless they can be definitely identified as meeting copyright policy, they should be deleted. I don't think it is worth spending a whole lot more investigating each photo. — CactusWriter | 18:58, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Fair enough, I've completed the set. Note that they provided an explanation () on their talkpage before leaving for work; I've suggested that, if they wish to request unblock, they do so in the normal way. EyeSerene 19:27, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
An offer
I have made the editor an offer . It is my view that this is a valuable editor who we would do better to have editing than not - if they can get the hang of the place. Specifically I don't think we would want the editor to comment removed around the block. I've notified the blocking admin. Hopefully some recovery can be made from this mess. Pedro : Chat 19:49, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- I think that's a very magnanimous offer, and one they'd do well to seriously consider. Depending on their response and them staying well away from image uploads for whatever time is thought suitable, you've got my backing :) EyeSerene 20:07, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- If they accept the offer and this results in an unblock, please ping me at user talk. Would reopen the parallel Commons discussion upon request. Durova 20:10, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Thanks both. SarekofVulcan has generously indicated on the user talk page he would also be happy, as have other respected editors including Moonriddengirl who started this thread. Durova, I will of course advise the outcome, although it is likely that it will likely be tommorow (UTC time). I have no full account on commons so can't add any input there Pedro : Chat 20:26, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Pinging on user talk at either project is fine. Am on Pacific time, so morning UTC would be nighttime here. Might mean a few hours' delay. Durova 21:27, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Thanks both. SarekofVulcan has generously indicated on the user talk page he would also be happy, as have other respected editors including Moonriddengirl who started this thread. Durova, I will of course advise the outcome, although it is likely that it will likely be tommorow (UTC time). I have no full account on commons so can't add any input there Pedro : Chat 20:26, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- If they accept the offer and this results in an unblock, please ping me at user talk. Would reopen the parallel Commons discussion upon request. Durova 20:10, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- I unequivocally oppose this offer, or any move to unblock. We've assumed good faith in spades, and been rewarded with a torrent of deliberate and wholesale deceit. Fraudulent copyright claims place our users, and our downstream mirrors, at genuine legal risk; to accept further contributions from this individual, under any circumstances, weakens any faith they might have that we're actually serious about giving them a legal, freely-licensed product. Mentoring is also inappropriate; mentoring is right for people who've misunderstood the rules, standards, and mores of Misplaced Pages, not for the wilfully and systematically dishonest. -- Finlay McWalter • Talk 22:57, 14 October 2009 (UTC) edit: that's "unequivocally"; d'oh -- Finlay McWalter • Talk 23:12, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- I'm not sure this is a good idea. We have multiple examples of both text and image copyvios. Moreover, when he had a chance to come clean he admitted it about some of the images but lied about the images he claimed belonged to his grandfather that seem based on the research here to be almost certainly copyvios also. I have trouble seeing it likely that this individual will be a net benefit to the project. JoshuaZ (talk) 03:39, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- With all due respect to Pedro, who I have at various times maligned and revered - mostly mistaken on either side ;-) - I oppose this "offer". Finlay McWalter says it well; there were so many chances given for Preston to come clean and there was an afternoon of obfuscation, evasion, deceit, and misdirection in the face of indisputable evidence. This issue was not simply a matter of false information on the wiki, as it was with the previous offender named above. This entailed legal risk. We simply cannot allow ourselves to knowingly accept contributions from an account that has a documented past of explicitly fabricating fraudulent copyright claims. I know that occasions like this will occur, but what if it happens again? What if the foundation is sued, and our users knew that this user had a proclivity to making false claims? I'm not Godwin; I don't know. But it seems the risk outweighs the benefits. Personally, I will never trust this user again. I don't think the community should, either. Tan | 39 04:45, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- I'm afraid I share the discomfort with unblocking him so soon - I guess with many eyes watching he won't get a chance to do it again, at least while they're watching, but I'm still nervous about someone who only admitted and apologized for the copyvios after been given multiple opportunities, in spite of definitive evidence, and who appears to still have only admitted to the ones he was caught out for. Second chances are great, and I think it speaks highly of the editors involved that one was offered, but I'd have been inclined to wait until there was real evidence that he understood what he'd done and why it was a mistake. That said, I think recalling the offer will do more damage, so I guess we watch and see if he accepts it, and, if so, how he goes after. - Bilby (talk) 10:24, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- With all due respect to Pedro, who I have at various times maligned and revered - mostly mistaken on either side ;-) - I oppose this "offer". Finlay McWalter says it well; there were so many chances given for Preston to come clean and there was an afternoon of obfuscation, evasion, deceit, and misdirection in the face of indisputable evidence. This issue was not simply a matter of false information on the wiki, as it was with the previous offender named above. This entailed legal risk. We simply cannot allow ourselves to knowingly accept contributions from an account that has a documented past of explicitly fabricating fraudulent copyright claims. I know that occasions like this will occur, but what if it happens again? What if the foundation is sued, and our users knew that this user had a proclivity to making false claims? I'm not Godwin; I don't know. But it seems the risk outweighs the benefits. Personally, I will never trust this user again. I don't think the community should, either. Tan | 39 04:45, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
Conditions of unblock?
Certainly I understand reservations. This was a matter of copyright fraud, not error. Further, it wasn't just a question of a user lying when caught. He lied when he uploaded those images as well, when he explicitly claimed he was the photographer. This means that the deception didn't just happen when he panicked on being called out. He intended from the start to defraud that photographer as well, almost indisputably, as some others. However, there are other options than an outright block. I have one multiple article infringer who was given a second chance who has been submitting material to me before publishing it for more than six months. (I don't have time to do this for Pr3st0n as well. Copyright cleanup is more than a full time job.) If Pedro says he will keep an eye on him, I trust him. And obviously as a community we do have the option to ban certain activities, such as image uploads, if we feel that this demonstration of bad faith does not merit our assuming good faith from him again. And I think it should be a given that any future copyright violations should result in an immediate block, no discussion necessary. --Moonriddengirl 10:55, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- There is not a particularly clear consensus to unblock at the moment with four editors arguing above not to lift the block, or at least not yet, but with support on his user talk from a number of others. I much appreciate your extension of trust to me Moonriddengirl, and I also understand the concerns in the section above about removing the block. I fully agree that any further "issues" in this regard from Pr3st0nwould be met with an immediate block if he is unblocked now. Either way, I guess it is all moot until he signs in again, if indeed he does. Should that happen we may need more discussion then. Pedro : Chat 11:07, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- Yes, I see that there is opposition. It was actually my hope that setting conditions might help those who (understandably) oppose unblock feel more comfortable with the option. :) But you're quite right that it's all moot right now. --Moonriddengirl 11:41, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
I believe I bear more than a little responsibility for starting this, because in reviewing Gareth's contributions, which I've done frequently, I noted an updated photo upload and asked Moonriddengirl about it, and we were off to the races (again). Pr3st0n/Gareth first came to my attention at RfA, when he stood for adminship shortly after completing a bunch of work on Lostock Hall, which he also nominated for GA status. That RfA did not go well, being WP:SNOW-closed and re-opened at Gareth's request despite several recommendations to the contrary. He did not get it until oppose #26, which followed an entry of his own as oppose #25 (obviously not really an oppose of himself). Part of the reason that RfA didn't go well was that Lostock Hall contained copyright violations. After investigation, the originally-questioned text turned out to be public domain, but through the diligent work of Moonriddengirl, a great deal more actually copyright-violating text was found. Gareth defended that text in the same way as he defended these photos, not getting it until several people weighed in on the situation. Concurrently, there was his own GA review of an article, in which he failed it out of hand for lack of context and was questioned about it, and about which he asked for my comment, but did not receive it well. (The article was GA-passed with a minimum of effort shortly thereafter.) While failing the GA nomination, Gareth used a template from WP:AfC and despite being told so several times, did not get that the template in question was for a different process, and that he wasn't explaining suitably why the article should not be a GA. When I then tried to show him two more RfAs that weren't going well the week after his, he did not take it well and opened an ANI complaint about my response to the matter. Details are here, and when I was pinged about that thread, I put together some notes here. In particular, note the last comment in the ANI thread. Gareth posted his final comment after it had been archived, showing once again that he didn't get it in two ways this time: first, that the majority of responses to his complaint were not agreeing with him, and second, that the thread had already been archived and further discussion there wasn't going to happen. Skipping ahead to yesterday's discussion, in the middle of it all, when he was blocked, his concern was about being able to continue his adoption assignments, rather than displaying any hint that he was getting it regarding the newly discovered copyright violations.
I trust you all see the theme here. Gareth is trying to be a part of the community - evidently trying pretty hard - and does not easily get it when things are explained. He often takes things personally as if someone has walked up to him and slapped him across the face, when in fact what has been going on is that people have been gently nudging him in the direction of appropriate policies to read and people to contact. I understand the violations are violations, and in fact I think I am the one who first spotted the problem in both recent cases. (There was an early image problem as well; see File:Jade ewen.jpg (admins only) from January 2009.) I think after all of the recent activity, Gareth has begun to understand the seriousness of the problem. A lot of effort has been put into making that so - probably a dozen people have spent hours each in doing so. I am pretty sure Moonriddengirl must have spent literally days' worth of effort on the two copyright issues, and I know I've spent a full day or two all told.
So let me say this about all that: we aren't yet at the stage that we can't unblock Gareth. He can get it. Note that the image copyright question involves images that were uploaded before his RfA, and before the discussion about his text copyright issues. Yes, there was deceit, defiance, obfuscation, and general stonewalling along the way (in both cases). However, he has made honest efforts with his text, and he has made honest efforts with his adoption process. I haven't seen further evidence of text copyright violations, and we have already instituted upload sanction for images. The offer Pedro made is not an automatic unblock just for the asking. The blocking admin has signed on. At least two other editors who have spent considerable time examining Gareth's submissions have signed on to the offer. Gareth may or may not sign on himself. If he does, it will be a tight leash, especially considering the number of people who think he's already used up all his chances. The pattern is known and would be easily recognized if it started again, and Gareth must know that, or we can explicitly spell it out to make sure.
I respect the opinion of those who advocate for refusing to unblock. In many similar cases, I would even agree and say that we should all move on. However, I am very familiar with this case, and I think there is a reasonable chance Gareth can be turned into a productive contributor. There are enough people willing to adopt and mentor (forward-looking activities), and enough who are closely aware and will monitor and correct (project-protecting activities) that I think we can make this work - if Gareth agrees. If Gareth displays a lack of understanding of the seriousness of the problem, a lack of understanding of what is expected and required, or a general unwillingness to make continued effort, I would have to agree that keeping the block in place is appropriate. But if he is willing to adhere to community standards and requirements, I think we can unblock this time. Frank | talk 12:01, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- No longer moot. I personally am not comfortable with this attitude: "We all do mistakes, and cannot start pointing fingers at others when they make mistakes too. I would never do that to people, I would offer help and support, not pile on by bullying or making them feel worthless." Although he has admitted wrongdoing, this suggests to me that he still feels himself the aggrieved party (and he is still describing his copyright fraud as a mistake). IOW, I'm not sure there is any real understanding here. This does somewhat diminish my support of an unblock. It is an admission...of sorts. That said, I do still trust Pedro. :) I am lukewarm at best. --Moonriddengirl 12:48, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- And neither am I. Given this posting and Frank's treatise above, WP:COMPETENCE comes repeatedly to mind. While I won't vehemently fight any mentoring or "deal" or whatever offer is given, I remain opposed to any unblocking. Tan | 39 13:09, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- Actually, having re-read Pr3st0n's statement, I now also oppose any unblocking. He says, "no deceit was intended, it is one thing I despise, and that is deceitful people." I cannot reconcile this with the fact that he actually said that he was the photographer of several of these images when uploading them. He said this was "A photo of Lostock Hall library which I took in 2008." He said in edit summary at Commons that he was the photographer of this. When he says, "Each time I stated one of those copied photos was mine, I was only trying to dig a way out" he is still lying. --Moonriddengirl 13:27, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- I think what he's trying to say in the response is in reference to his assertions yesterday as opposed to "every time" meaning every edit in the past. Speaking bluntly I do have a WP:BEANS footwear related concern and there is an argument that I'd prefer to keep Gareth on the straight and narrow under this name or one he renames too if you see where I'm coming from. Having said that, if the tide is turning and we feel that the effort / reward investment in this user is negative then that's the way it is and no unblock. Pedro : Chat 13:33, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- Frankly, we should not use the possibility of beans as a reason to unblock. If they beans again, we'll catch it again with the same amount of effort that would be required if they were contributing as a regular editor and still uploading copyvios...except without the front end effort of mentoring. Syrthiss (talk) 13:40, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- True. Pedro : Chat 13:54, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) I really do understand your concern and have taken the same approach to others for that very reason. However, I don't think we can put him on the straight and narrow unless he is willing to fully admit culpability. I suppose it's possible he intends what you mean, but the "no deceit was intended, and it is one thing I despise, and that is deceitful people" is still just an astonishing statement for me given the deliberate deception on upload. Many of his images were--like other copyright violators--uploaded without such a false claim of authorship. This is typically what I see from people who are misunderstanding copyright--even those who use a "pd-self" tag don't always claim to be the photographer. The claim to have taken the picture is extraordinary, though, and represents (in my eyes) intent to deceive. Lacking clarification, I'm afraid that I still see intent to deceive. (Also, his persisting in his claims that these images belong to his grandfather is troubling, given conversation above. Note that one of these images was uploaded three years ago by another contributor and that, as pointed out above, the other one which was uploaded by Pr3st0n seems to be a copy of the lower resolution image at the website which previously published it. It isn't impossible that these were his grandfather's images, but, to be frank, it's implausible. And Pr3st0n's honesty is certainly in question.) --Moonriddengirl 13:41, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- Ah, I see now about that image that he claims was his grandfather's. My apologies, I'd missed that one in the mass of other issues. Hampered by the fact that I can't do anything with the commons stuff and th eimages are now mostly deleted I simply didn't notice that issue until now. Yes, I agree - implausible is the word. Hmm. Pedro : Chat 13:54, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- Frankly, we should not use the possibility of beans as a reason to unblock. If they beans again, we'll catch it again with the same amount of effort that would be required if they were contributing as a regular editor and still uploading copyvios...except without the front end effort of mentoring. Syrthiss (talk) 13:40, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- I think what he's trying to say in the response is in reference to his assertions yesterday as opposed to "every time" meaning every edit in the past. Speaking bluntly I do have a WP:BEANS footwear related concern and there is an argument that I'd prefer to keep Gareth on the straight and narrow under this name or one he renames too if you see where I'm coming from. Having said that, if the tide is turning and we feel that the effort / reward investment in this user is negative then that's the way it is and no unblock. Pedro : Chat 13:33, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- Actually, having re-read Pr3st0n's statement, I now also oppose any unblocking. He says, "no deceit was intended, it is one thing I despise, and that is deceitful people." I cannot reconcile this with the fact that he actually said that he was the photographer of several of these images when uploading them. He said this was "A photo of Lostock Hall library which I took in 2008." He said in edit summary at Commons that he was the photographer of this. When he says, "Each time I stated one of those copied photos was mine, I was only trying to dig a way out" he is still lying. --Moonriddengirl 13:27, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- And neither am I. Given this posting and Frank's treatise above, WP:COMPETENCE comes repeatedly to mind. While I won't vehemently fight any mentoring or "deal" or whatever offer is given, I remain opposed to any unblocking. Tan | 39 13:09, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
Consensus seems hazy
By the last count (and noting that of those who supported unblock last night only myself and Moonriddengirl have had a chance to review the above reply) the situation appears to be Myself, SarekOfVulcan, Malleus, Camaron, John, Frank and Eye Serene comfortable with unblock, Moonriddengirl luke warm to it, and Tan, Finlay and Joshuaz firmly opposed with Bilby opposed certainly at this time. That does not seem to be a real consensus. Suggestions anyone? Should we wait until others involved have had a chance to digest the response? I'm still leaning to unblock with strict understanding regarding mentorship but it's by no means a clear decision and I admit my bias. Pedro : Chat 13:20, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- I was posting above as you wrote this. Sorry! After re-reading his apology and full explanation, I am now opposed to unblocking, as I believe he is still being deceptive. Though I trust you, I feel I have no hope of trusting him. That said, I do think we should allow others to digest his response as you suggest before reading consensus here. --Moonriddengirl 13:31, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- I'm also going to oppose. It sounds like we can unblock and have several editors devote time (which admittedly is theirs to devote) to mentoring, and have several other editors checking back in on the contributions because they don't wholly trust them...or we can leave him blocked and let all those other editors continue to be productive, non-lying-about-copyrighted-material editors. I 'feel bad' and he's probably a 'good kid really', but wikipedia is not a self help program. Syrthiss (talk) 13:36, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- I'm swinging over to weak oppose here, in part because of the bit about setting up a photo sharing site and uploading to there first so he can source it. As above, it appears that he still doesn't get it. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 14:10, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- I have to say lukewarm is my feeling as well. I won't argue against an unblock, and if an unblock occurs, I won't complain and I'll still keep an eye, but I still don't see much effort to get it as I explained above. And for a while I was really persona non grata for trying hard to help Gareth get it; that may still be the case. I'm not sure I'll be of much use to him going forward, which is why I've largely stayed off his talk page. Frank | talk 14:17, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- Er, just to clarify, I'm more in the weak oppose than firm oppose category. Sorry if my earlier remark came across as a stronger stand than that. JoshuaZ (talk) 14:28, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- Joshua, my apologies for misrepresenting your opinion. Pedro : Chat 14:37, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- If it were my decision, I wouldn't unblock until it was clearer that he understands the full implications of his actions and statements, and until you (Pedro) were confident of a reasonable chance of success. In particular, I'm unnerved by the "people are picking on me" attitude that I think his latest response still displays. However, I have no problem whatsoever if you want to volunteer your time and try to salvage the situation. I don't mean to speak heresy here, I know we eat, sleep and breathe consensus and all, but I'd like to give you enough elbow room to use your own judgement a little. If you're willing to mentor/monitor, and almost everyone's opinion is weak oppose or weak support, I'm not convinced you really have to get a clear consensus in favor of this to follow through with your plan. Perhaps a better question to ask (rather than "do I have consensus") is "is anyone strongly opposed to me giving this a try?" Even though I fear this might be quixotic, I trust your judgement to shut things down if it goes pear shaped. --Floquenbeam (talk) 14:55, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- I oppose any unblock. This is serious, and he really doesn't seem to understand, even though it appears that multiple editors have bent over backwards to explain it. The most recent apology/explanation was more a stream of excuses/finger-pointing and what appears to still be, at best, half-truths. He's been given a lot of opportunities to improve, and, as mentioned above, doesn't appear to get it. I'm also concerned with the reference to being suicidal over this - either that's a lie to get sympathy or a sign that this user may be very unable to deal with the pressures of editing disputes and other drama that frequently occurs on this website. Either way, it does not give me confidence in this user and his future performance. Karanacs (talk) 15:10, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- On a purely pragmatic level, would the cost-benefit be worth it? Although his interests are encyclopedic they aren't irreplaceable, and I don't have time to vet this on a regular basis--even purely on the image side at Commons. That would be time away from featured content work and training other editors in digital image restoration (which are rare skills). In all likelihood, the site would be better off if he remained blocked and an editor in good standing pledged to write articles about the things that interest him. Anyone who has already contributed GAs could do this faster than him, without the worries over copyvio. Perhaps if there's an ongoing correspondence, he'd come to understand the right way of doing these things during the interim. Durova 15:28, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- I'm flip-flopping. For a block: The amount of time and effort that editors have spent on helping this editor while he's not getting it , and not getting it many times over. And then attacking the people who have spent very many hours helping him to understand. And it's not a simple case of asking which are or are not copy vios. NotAnIP83:149:66:11 (talk) 15:49, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- To clarify my position: on the plus side, I believe that Pr3st0n is capable of contributing good-quality work, and if closely supervised presents no further danger to Misplaced Pages. Since Pedro has offered such supervision and Pr3st0n would undoubtedly be watched like a hawk, in this respect I see no reason not to unblock. However... having read Pr3st0n's response, I can appreciate people's misgivings. It's concerning that Pr3st0n's first instinct when caught out was to try to cover up. It's concerning that he believes this is something anyone would do in the same situation. It's concerning that he thinks there's been an element of victimisation ("bullying" is the term he uses) in his treatment. It's concerning that he appears to be trying to occupy some form of moral high-ground in the face of his accusers. And it's concerning that he claims this has affected him so deeply. All this speaks to me of a worrying level of emotional fragility and cognitive dissonance that makes me wonder if we're doing more harm than good by providing Pr3st0n with a support mechanism, and we shouldn't instead be ushering him kindly and compassionately, but firmly, out of the door. If he's unblocked, we as a community need to accept that this is likely to be a high-maintenance investment, with no guarantee that the benefits will outweigh the costs. I'm not opposing, but that's more a decision based on Pedro's character and standing than it is on Pr3st0n's. EyeSerene 16:01, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- Weighing in here from the bleachers: EyeSerene said it perfectly. Yes, there is a possibility that this editor can become a productive editor, but as ES points out, the cognitive dissonance is so extreme that this point it would require an life-altering epiphany to bring about. Soon. Reasonably, I don't see it happening. Auntie E. 16:23, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- As I have been working with Pr3stOn and two others on an informal mediation case I discovered the extent of the issues with Gareth last night, having his talk page on my watchlist. I remain neutral leaning towards unblock because on the one hand I get the impression that he actually means well, but on the other does not, as has been stated by others, quite get it sometimes, and takes things a little bit too much to heart (e.g. when quoted policy after engaging in original research). I lean towards unblock mostly because of Pedro's generous offer of mentorship and the fact that Gareth will be watched like a hawk in the event of him being unblocked, and also because I have seen some helpful work at the Eurovision Song Contest articles. -- Александр Дмитрий (Alexandr Dmitri) (talk) 17:42, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
Protection of my user space page to control discussion and prevent me from posting there
- The following discussion is archived. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.
- Matter has been referred to the Arbitration Committee for clarification as they retain jurisdiction over this matter. –xeno 16:42, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
Admin User:Moni3 has protected a page in my user space User talk:Mattisse/Monitoring so that I cannot edit it. I was trying to have a productive discussion with my mentors/advisers as set forth by ArbCom. Now Moni3, who was part of the discussion and therefore not a disinterested party, has prevented me from editing my own user page. Is this action correct. I need to be able to interact with my mentors/advisors on the page designated for that purposes. Further, not all my mentors/advisers are admins, so they, like me, are unable to interact on the page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mattisse (talk • contribs) 15:44, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- The edit summary states that this is per an ARBCOM decision and due to an edit war. Mjroots (talk) 15:50, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Mattisse says she was trying to have a discussion with her mentors/advisors, but none of them had showed up when she started unilaterally altering the talk page to her ArbCom-approved monitoring page, removing posts without responding to good faith queries from other editors, and creating such a jumble that mentors might have a hard time sorting it by the time they did show up, so protection was necessary. If she was discussing with her mentors her unilateral change to the page, there was no on-Wiki evidence of that; in fact, it appeared quite the opposite-- that without discussion, she changed the ArbCom-approved page to begin removing comments. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:58, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- <edit conflict>:The ArbCom made the decision that I was to be guided by my mentors/advisers. They did not mention locking down my user page, and certainly not by an admin with a vested interest. Please show me where ArbCom gave Moni3 the authority to lock down my user space page. They wanted me to have productive interactions with my mentors/advisers. This kind of edit warring over my own user space page would be something they would seek to prevent. Please see Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Mattisse/Proposed decision. And User:Mattisse/Plan —mattisse (Talk) 16:02, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Further, per Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Mattisse, amendments to her plan were to be developed in consensus with her mentors. As Mattisse began altering the Plan in a way that created quite a jumble with no apparent consensus from her mentors, protection was warranted. (Also, it has been pointed out to Mattisse numerous times now that she continues to link to the Proposed decision page rather than the final decision page, which I've linked.) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:05, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- <edit conflict>:*My mentors/advisers and I discussed it yesterday. There was never any question that I have control over my own user space page. Others to not have the right to bring chaos to the work space where I interact with my mentors/adivers. SandyGeorgia has given her opinion multiple times, both during the arbitration and on my user space previously. ArbCom gave her no rights regarding my mentoring
, but rather tended to disregard her suggestions. Neither she, or any other editor who is not my mentor/adviser has a "right" to post on that page. The details of my mentors/advisors and my arbitration are not the problem of AN/I and are not to be worked out here. —mattisse (Talk) 16:08, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Please provide diffs concerning your allegations against SandyGeorgia or stop making them. Karanacs (talk) 16:10, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- If you developed consensus with your mentors that other editors could no longer post to the discussion page, one of them should have stated that. The arb clearly states that your plan is in consensus with your mentors, and not one of them has yet weighed in on whether they agreed that other editors could no longer post to talk, hence, protection was warranted as you were going against the plan by removing commentary. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:12, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- <edit conflict> :*SandyGeorgia has made it plain that she disagreed with the ArbCom decision. It is highly inappropriate to relitigate the terms of ArbCom decision here. This is not the proper forum. SandyGeogia should take it back to arbcom if she disagrees with anything.
Moni3 has no right to lock down my user page because SandyGeorgia is not getting her way.—mattisse (Talk) 16:13, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- <edit conflict> :*SandyGeorgia has made it plain that she disagreed with the ArbCom decision. It is highly inappropriate to relitigate the terms of ArbCom decision here. This is not the proper forum. SandyGeogia should take it back to arbcom if she disagrees with anything.
- SandyGeorgia has nothing to do with my user space page. She was not given a role in my monitoring by arbcom. She should not be part of this discussion. She only is because Moni3 locked down my user page because I had moved comments, including some by SandyGeorgia to an appropriate editoral comment page, to prevent my work page with my mentors/advisers from degenerating once again into a huge long discussion page between other editors that did not included me. I was referred to in the third person on my userspace monitoring page meant for discussion between me and my mentors/advisers. —mattisse (Talk) 16:17, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Mattisse, since not one of your mentors has yet shown up (and it's only been about an hour and a half since you unilaterally started altering the plan page, so they can't be blamed), I strongly advise you to hold your tongue and consult with them, as you are continuing the bad faith assumptions and behaviors that led to your Arb to begin with. Please wait for a mentor to show up before commenting further anywhere, and please consult with them. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:20, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Further, it is incorrect to say that I disagreed with ArbCom's plan, and you need to stop making unsubstantiated statements about other editors; this was another behavior that led to the original arb. I disagree with the unstructured chaos on your plan page, but regardless, the Arb decision clearly states it is to be developed in consensus with your mentors, yet you unilaterally started altering the page several hours ago, with no mentors present, and when they had requested a delay until Sunday when some of them would be available. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:23, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- <edit conflict> My mentors/advisers clearly said that they were not my baby sitters. I was encourage to unilaterally change my monitoring page. Arbcom made it clear that it was "my page" and I was responsible for it. —mattisse (Talk) 16:30, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Here is the precise ArbCom wording from the final case (I continue to be concerned that you refer to the Proposed decision page, when it is the final page that matters) ... my bold emphasis added: SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:33, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Adoption of proposed plan (3)
1a.iii) The plan submitted at User:Mattisse/Plan (version as of 24 June) is considered satisfactory and enacted as a baseline. Amendments to the plan may occur by consensus of the mentors, whereby the changes become provisional. At the discretion of the mentors, or if there are significant objections by the community, the provisional changes will be reviewed by the Arbitration Committee at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Amendment.
- Passed 8 to 1 (with 1 abstain) at 04:10, 1 July 2009 (UTC)
This matter has now been referred to ArbCom, so further discussion here is probably unnecesssary. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:26, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- I'm willing to expound on my actions on my talk page or here where necessary, but I believe that it should take place at ArbCom. --Moni3 (talk) 16:37, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.
Role account and username issue
Resolved – OTRS confirmation provided. Username issue can go to WP:RFCN if really necessary. --Floquenbeam (talk) 23:39, 14 October 2009 (UTC)- NERIC-Security (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Prior discussion at AN archive.
This is basically a WP:Role account for an organization, purportedly to monitor IP edits from that organization on Misplaced Pages. However, it is still a WP:Role account, and a username that is inappropriate per the username policy, specifically: Misleading names include those that imply you are in a position of authority over Misplaced Pages. (Specifically, both the organization's name, and the implied "Security" in the username.)
- Rlevse commented at the user's talk page:
- I agree with Rlevse that this is the best way to go here. The account should be renamed. Cirt (talk) 18:07, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Doesn't this belong at WP:RFCN? –xeno 18:12, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- It is both an issue of WP:Username policy and WP:Role account. Cirt (talk) 18:13, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- If a
sitting member of ArbCombureaucrat 'vetted' it as an exception to the role account policy, shouldn't you bring it up with them first? –xeno 18:21, 14 October 2009 (UTC) Amended per Rlevse's note that he wasn't an arb at the time- I notified Rlevse of this thread. However if a sitting member of ArbCom says the account should be "renamed to reduce future problems", I agree that should be done. I would also like to see specifically where it has been verified that there are not multiple people behind this account. Cirt (talk) 18:24, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- I was under the impression that Rlevse's comment was to state that it is permissible for more than one person to operate this account. –xeno 18:27, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- I am not sure what it meant, aside from that the username is not really appropriate. But I most certainly do not think it meant it is okay for multiple people to operate the account. Cirt (talk) 18:31, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- If the account was vetted as an exception to the username policy, then why would Rlevse suggest a username change? My powers of deduction lead me to conclude the vetting was for an exception to the role account policy. Anyhow, we'll have to wait for Rlevse to clarify. –xeno 18:33, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Xeno, he made a similar comment on the user's talk page (archived). I seem to remember User:NERIC-Security stating that the account was not a shared account. Jauerback/dude. 18:37, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- If the account was vetted as an exception to the username policy, then why would Rlevse suggest a username change? My powers of deduction lead me to conclude the vetting was for an exception to the role account policy. Anyhow, we'll have to wait for Rlevse to clarify. –xeno 18:33, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- I am not sure what it meant, aside from that the username is not really appropriate. But I most certainly do not think it meant it is okay for multiple people to operate the account. Cirt (talk) 18:31, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- I was under the impression that Rlevse's comment was to state that it is permissible for more than one person to operate this account. –xeno 18:27, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- I notified Rlevse of this thread. However if a sitting member of ArbCom says the account should be "renamed to reduce future problems", I agree that should be done. I would also like to see specifically where it has been verified that there are not multiple people behind this account. Cirt (talk) 18:24, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- If a
- It is both an issue of WP:Username policy and WP:Role account. Cirt (talk) 18:13, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
Per m:Role account: On the English Misplaced Pages, five role accounts are currently permitted. I do not see any way that this account should be permitted to remain unblocked, unless it changes its username to make it specifically clear that it is both: 1) One individual, and 2) that the username does not imply a position of authority. Cirt (talk) 18:40, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- I've asked the user to comment here... –xeno 18:42, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)x3 Actually, the user page says just that (single user) with a link to a previous discussion. Jauerback/dude. 18:43, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- And where has that been confirmed? Cirt (talk) 18:45, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Cirt, I'm not sure how much more confirmation you're gonna get than the link above (and now below). A Checkuser won't necessarily confirm anything. As a single user could log on from more than one location (not at once, mind you) and a multiple-user account could all have the same IP. Jauerback/dude. 18:50, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- And where has that been confirmed? Cirt (talk) 18:45, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)x3 Actually, the user page says just that (single user) with a link to a previous discussion. Jauerback/dude. 18:43, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Hi. As agreed to at Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/Archive121#User:NERIC-Security the account is not, and has never been, used by anyone other than myself, and is only used to patrol the NERIC class B addresses. As far as the username, I work for NERIC and I am responsible for the network security at NERIC. When I sign the IP talk pages, since they are IPs on the NERIC network, NERIC-Security lets them know that it is coming from their network, and is not from the world at large. When I make non-work edits, I user my personal username. --NERIC-Security (talk) 18:46, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Re "confirmation", assuming that my word is not sufficient, look at the IP address used by this account when logged in. Most, if not all, of the edits should be from my office workstation 163.153.230.190 - a PC that is not shared with anyone else. --NERIC-Security (talk) 18:50, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Confirmation would best be done through WP:OTRS. Cirt (talk) 18:50, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Re "confirmation", assuming that my word is not sufficient, look at the IP address used by this account when logged in. Most, if not all, of the edits should be from my office workstation 163.153.230.190 - a PC that is not shared with anyone else. --NERIC-Security (talk) 18:50, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Since we have untangled the role account issue from the username issue, I would suggest filing at WP:RFC/N to gather opinions on the username. –xeno 18:51, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- How are they untangled? Cirt (talk) 18:53, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- If you're not willing to take the user at his word above, why would an email to OTRS be any different? –xeno 18:56, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Because conceivably it would be an email from the domain of the organization, but with an email address specifying a single individual. Cirt (talk) 18:58, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Even if you get an email from an individual, what's stopping that individual from sharing the login information with multiple people? Equazcion (talk) 19:00, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- An e-mail has been sent to issues@wikimedia.org --NERIC-Security (talk) 19:01, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Even if you get an email from an individual, what's stopping that individual from sharing the login information with multiple people? Equazcion (talk) 19:00, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Because conceivably it would be an email from the domain of the organization, but with an email address specifying a single individual. Cirt (talk) 18:58, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- If you're not willing to take the user at his word above, why would an email to OTRS be any different? –xeno 18:56, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- I am about ready to throw in the towel. When each of you were up for admin, did anyone question your word? What have I done to make you question mine? --NERIC-Security (talk) 19:03, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Let's keep this issue focused, and not try to change the topic, thanks. Cirt (talk) 19:04, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Since the user has emailed OTRS per Cirt's request as well as stated here that the account is not being used by more than one person I would submit that this issue is resolved and any further concern over the username be brought up at WP:RFCN to gather outside opinions. –xeno 19:06, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Let's please wait until this email has been confirmed. Cirt (talk) 19:11, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Sounds good. –xeno 20:27, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
While I am a sitting member of arbcom, note that comment Cirt linked to was from Nov 2008, BEFORE the elections last year were even held. I do recall this and there was some sort of exception already made for this account but I don't recall the particulars. — Rlevse • Talk • 20:25, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- I'm 90% sure the "issues@wikimedia.org" email address does not exist (I looked it up on our system and couldn't find any result). Can you please try to contact info-en@wikimedia.org instead, if you didn't get any answer from a volunteer already? -- Luk 20:24, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- If it doesn't exist, mention of it should be removed from meta:OTRS#Miscellaneous. –xeno 20:27, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- As long as the account is only used by one person, it is not a role account. I might suggest renaming to account to User:NERIC-Joe (or whatever the person's name is), then if there is ever a need for a second person to perform the monitoring function, they could create User:NERIC-Sally or whatever. Thatcher 20:31, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- I agree with this suggestion made by Thatcher (talk · contribs) - and I note it is basically the exact same suggestion as made previously by Rlevse (talk · contribs). Cirt (talk) 20:33, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Agree, taking the "Security" out of the name would be ideal. –xeno 20:36, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Has anyone bothered to thank this editor for the help they've provided the project? That may have been a better way of starting this thread. People are suggesting the username is changed. The name has been fine for over a year. Has any editor been confused in that time? What will happen if this editor politely decline to change the name? Who will block? NotAnIP83:149:66:11 (talk) 21:53, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- I agree with the sentiment of NotAnIP's post. Why are we assuming bad faith about a person who has been helping prevent abuse/vandalism from their network? Do we really want to chase this person away over a minor username issue? --ThaddeusB (talk) 22:08, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Agree with Thaddeus and NotAnIP. Jauerback/dude. 23:51, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- I agree with the sentiment of NotAnIP's post. Why are we assuming bad faith about a person who has been helping prevent abuse/vandalism from their network? Do we really want to chase this person away over a minor username issue? --ThaddeusB (talk) 22:08, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- OTRS confirmation provided. I'm resolving this; if someone really thinks the username is an issue, WP:RFCN is thatway. --Floquenbeam (talk) 23:39, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
Talk pages not moved about
Last month, Lowellian (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) moved Orange Bowl to Orange Bowl (disambiguation) (talk pages moved), and then moved Orange Bowl (game) to Orange Bowl, but forgot to do so with Talk:Orange Bowl (game) (probably a side effect from the redirect in place at the time). This just needs a quick fix (Talk:Orange Bowl (game) to Talk:Orange Bowl), but Lowellian appears to not be editing today.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 18:29, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- The above may be a case of wikistalking by Ryulong in response to my comment noting the problem and suggesting the restoration of the pre-Sept 2 arrangement with Orange Bowl being the disambiguation page. Thanks. Racepacket (talk) 18:33, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Move done. {{db-move}} works too. No comment on the immediately above. –xeno 18:35, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- I did discover the issue by seeing that Racepacket had made a comment at WT:WPDAB. However, considering that I have filed an RFC concerning his activities in the subject area, I do not think it is wikistalking.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 18:38, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
Possible sockpuppetry
I don't know what to do about user:Abarbadoro and user:Korubin. Something isn't right. The two are fighting over material, each has only made one edit ever. Both made the same signing mistake, and somehow user:Abarbadoro knew to find and comment on a discussion at user talk:Korubin. It's suspicious, but I don't want to formally accuse them on the sockpuppet thread. Nezzadar (speak) 18:34, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- From what I can see, Abarbadoro is repeatedly trying to insert either the text of an essay on a blog, or a link to it (at different times). This is in violation of WP:RS and WP:ELNO. Korubin's initial removal of the essay from the article may seem suspicious to you, but is entirely appropriate. As to the "same signing mistake", note that Abarbadoro signed their initial comment at User talk:Korubin one way, then Korubin signed their comment in a different way (making a mistake I see often with new editors) and Abarbadoro then made the same mistake, possibly in imitation. I don't see any reason to suspect sockpuppetry at this time.
- I do see one bigger problem however. You left a warning on Korubin's talk page, "Your recent edit to rape culture was reverted. The reason for this is that large content removal usually is decided by consensus." I'm curious as to what policy or guideline that is in reference to. Inappropriate material is removed from articles all the time, in amounts both large and small and the warning you left is completely in opposition to WP:BOLD. The policy you had linked in your notice to Korubin, WP:CONSENSUS, says nothing about "large content removal". In fact, WP:BRD says that what Korubin did was completely justified; one editor makes a bold edit, another one reverts it, then the discussion proceeds to resolve the disagreement if the initial editor insists that the edit should stay.
- Finally, the rest of the notice was, "I also wanted to warn you that the edit you made seems like a suspicious first edit. You might want to start small." That is entirely inappropriate. You're warning an editor to "start small", but why? Do you not want new editors to improve the article? We need new editors, and editors who seem to be very clueful right from the start are an especially precious commodity. When their first experience on Misplaced Pages is to be confronted by another editor who tells them that they should take care and not make any edits, you are in serious danger of driving them away from Misplaced Pages for no good reason. This is WP:BITE in one of the worst ways.
- My advice to you, Nezzadar, is to stay away from new editors, at least in terms of giving them warnings. From the ANI thread above and now from this new self-declared behavior you show a consistently hostile behavior toward them. You may not realize that you are doing this, and at this point I honestly believe that your actions are being done with the best of intentions. But your behavior seems to show a lack of understanding of some fairly important guidelines and policies. For example, did you inform either editor of this notice, which is a requirement whenever you begin a notice at ANI? (It says so right at the top of the page, where instructions are given in how to use this noticeboard.) Perhaps mentorship might be of help to you. I don't know, but I'm seriously worried about how many new editors you might be discouraging in your actions. -- Atama頭 23:08, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- The reason I did not inform them is because it was a sockpuppet investigation, and I wanted an admin with Checkuser to tell whether or not it was the case before I made an accusation. As for the suspicious comment, it was in refrence to the same thing. The way the edits stacked up, it seemed like a classic con setup. (Person sets up fake agressor and claims victim to gain support for something.) Until I was sure what I was dealing with, I didn't want to escalate anything. I do hope you fixed everything up nicely though. Thanks for the advice, but I'll pass on a mentor. Nezzadar (speak) 23:21, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Actually I know exactly what you're talking about. I remember a case not that long ago that I think was posted on this noticeboard where an editor created two accounts and set up a fake edit war between the two. Despite myself, I found the whole thing pretty funny (which I guess was the intention) but the sockpuppet/master was properly blocked for doing so. On the other hand, care needs to be taken with new editors and WP:AGF is critical. In this particular case I'm not entirely sure what the con would have been. If Abarbadaro was attempting to get sympathy from Korubin's revert it was very poorly done and entirely counter-productive, if anything it only drew attention to the inappropriate text. I have trouble giving credence to the idea of a con being done here, I think that it's a case of one new editor trying to draw attention to a blog essay or promote its message and another new editor objecting to it. Unfortunately in your attempt to not escalate anything you ended up giving some very bad advice to a new editor. -- Atama頭 23:52, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
Moved from Misplaced Pages:Media Copyright Questions
rape culture origional info, possible sockpuppetry
Will someone please check out the issues at rape culture. Two new editors are in conflict over the posting of an essay. Also, if anyone has checkuser, can you make sure they arn't both the same person. This is the only edit either of them had made. Nezzadar (speak) 18:30, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- First thing that strikes me is the MASSIVE block of text citing only blogs as a source, which is NOT a reliable source, that section in it's entirity would likely quality as WP:OR and should be removed. This probably isn't the right venue though for this request. — raeky 18:55, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
Sock User:216.241.55.204 used for block evasion by User:Ionas68224
Resolved – The User:216.241.55.204 sock has been blocked by User:Nishkid64 for an additional two weeks. user:J aka justen (talk) 02:48, 15 October 2009 (UTC)The IP above admitted on his talk page that he is a sock used for block evasion by banned editor User:Ionas68224, who is also banned on Simple as simple:User:Jonas D. Rand; and banned on Commons as Commons:User:Ionas68224 (along with his sock puppet Commons:User:Swusr. The IP has been warned repeatedly that he should not be editing. when the IP returned to edit war with User:J over harassing statements after a resolved issue. Also editing sensitive articles and starting talk page threads. IP was blocked for by User:Nishkid64 for one week for harassment and personal attacks, which expired yesterday, October 13. Immediately, IP set about harassing other editors. IP is only used by this banned user--although he continually uses a few old, sporadic edits to say we can't block it--for block evasion, and should be blocked indefinitely. -->David Shankbone 18:37, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- There's no proof that this was me. I am Ionas68224, but there are a number of people in Primm, Nevada who use Cheetah Wireless for their residential service, Buffalo Bill's and Whiskey Pete's and Primm Valley Resort all use Cheetah for their free internet, as does the Gold Strike Hotel and Gambling Hall (nobody lives in Jean). In addition to this, there are a number of casinos on the Las Vegas Strip who use it for free internet service as well. And Cheetah only has about 14 IPs, so people tend to share IPs.
- It's not true that I am the only one that uses the IP. I can point out 8 edits that were made since I started using this service that were not mine. IP addresses are not to be blocked indefinitely, either. And I think it should be clear who is harassing whom. 216.241.55.204 (talk) 18:59, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- It has long been the general practice to block IP addresses which have been, and I may add, are currently being used by a banned user to evade the means of their ban from this website. Just because other individuals have been using the IP does not excuse it from being blocked as to prevent policies from being broken and bans being evaded. You know you are not wanted on this website Ionas68224, so why do you continue to return? To appeal your ban and be able to edit, you have to do so through the arbitration committee and only then will you be allowed to edit under your original name. That does not mean the use of sockpuppet accounts and "anonymous" editing through IP addresses owned by Cheetah Wireless would be excused in any way. You know this and you should just accept the fact that the community will not allow you back.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 19:05, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
Article probation violations by User:Jawesome98
Articles related to Barack Obama are currently under article probation. Jawesome98 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has repeatedly violated this by adding "birther" material to Early life and career of Barack Obama, breaking 3RR in the course of the last 24 hours. . He has previously been blocked three times for edit-warring on this article and breaking article probation. Given this continuing pattern of disruption, I propose an indefinite ban on Jawesome98 from editing Obama-related articles. -- ChrisO (talk) 18:54, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Given a 24-hour block by another admin for violating 3RR. Some people should continue to keep an eye on this user, since coming to Misplaced Pages from WorldNetDaily (see talk page) cannot be a good thing. MuZemike 19:23, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- I've removed the "resolved" tag because, quite clearly, this hasn't been resolved. Let's recap. This user was blocked in July for edit-warring and was almost immediately re-blocked for violations of the article probation. He has continued violating the article probation since then, in the course of which he violated 3RR. Now, a block for 3RR is a good thing and the right thing to do, but that is incidental to the main issue here - the violation of the article probation. This editor has repeatedly violated article probation and has been blocked three times for it. The proper response to that sort of behaviour is to enforce the article probation, which specifically allows for bans from Obama-related articles for repeat offenders. Otherwise we're sending the message that the article probation is meaningless, which isn't a good idea. -- ChrisO (talk) 19:32, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- It's pretty clear that 24 hours won't slow this editor down much, and I agree that a topic ban is in order. PhGustaf (talk) 19:36, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- After discussing with DJ Clayworth, I've escalated to 1 week. However, since he's been blocked for edit warring and probation violations before, I think a ban is in order, because he's not getting the point.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 19:40, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- It's pretty clear that 24 hours won't slow this editor down much, and I agree that a topic ban is in order. PhGustaf (talk) 19:36, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- I've removed the "resolved" tag because, quite clearly, this hasn't been resolved. Let's recap. This user was blocked in July for edit-warring and was almost immediately re-blocked for violations of the article probation. He has continued violating the article probation since then, in the course of which he violated 3RR. Now, a block for 3RR is a good thing and the right thing to do, but that is incidental to the main issue here - the violation of the article probation. This editor has repeatedly violated article probation and has been blocked three times for it. The proper response to that sort of behaviour is to enforce the article probation, which specifically allows for bans from Obama-related articles for repeat offenders. Otherwise we're sending the message that the article probation is meaningless, which isn't a good idea. -- ChrisO (talk) 19:32, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Would it do any good to add wnd.com to the link blacklist? Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 20:11, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Clobber it. PhGustaf (talk) 21:02, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- I agree that there's no legitimate reason that I can see for citing WND in most articles, but wouldn't that prevent us from citing anything sourced to WND in the WorldNetDaily article? It's arguably a reliable source for matters concerning itself, even if it's thoroughly unreliable on other topics. -- ChrisO (talk) 21:07, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- But before blacklisting we should see how the link is used in existing articles - obviously it's okay as a link from the article about the publication, and presumably as an external link for its own personnel, some of whom are notable. If we blacklist will it still be possible for admins to add manually, or otherwise allow for legitimate uses? - Wikidemon (talk) 21:08, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- I don't know if it's technically possible to do this, but maybe it could be "whitelisted" for use only in certain specified articles? -- ChrisO (talk) 21:14, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Didn't this come up last year or so? WND is already supposed to be on the blacklist. Tarc (talk) 23:59, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- WND ought to be an acceptable source for itself and for biography articles about its current and former staff, and things such as that. Wherever the 'self-published works' clause of WP:RS applies. Durova 16:20, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- Didn't this come up last year or so? WND is already supposed to be on the blacklist. Tarc (talk) 23:59, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- I don't know if it's technically possible to do this, but maybe it could be "whitelisted" for use only in certain specified articles? -- ChrisO (talk) 21:14, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Clobber it. PhGustaf (talk) 21:02, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
Here Jaws accuses the blocking admin of being a "liberal" (!!!!!). Has Jawsome no sense of decency, at long last? Has he left no sense of decency? →Baseball Bugs carrots 01:59, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- Oh dear, liberalism you say? We can't have that, can we? -- ChrisO (talk) 08:32, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
Bilderberg Group IP-hopper
I have just protected the article Bilderberg Group due to one persistent IP-hopping partisan, who keeps inserting a blatantly political screed into the article. He does not listen to reason and (by his edit summaries) seems to be here specifically to fulfil an agenda of some sort. The user is presently blocked for 12h and the page locked down for 2 weeks; I'd be amenable to reducing or eliminating the protection if I can get a few more eyes on the article to eliminate the politicking as it appears. -Jeremy 19:15, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- In the future you may want to mention the level of protection you have given a page -- which in this case is semi-protection. (The appropriate level, IMHO.) -- llywrch (talk) 20:09, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Seems a perfectly reasonable response. Tim Vickers (talk) 17:05, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
User:Delicious carbuncle violation of NPA and Harass
Resolved – misunderstanding, offending comments refactored. Nothing to see here, folks. Manning (talk) 23:27, 14 October 2009 (UTC)A website, nycfoto.com, had put links to its photo galleries on 36 New York City related articles. Per WP:COI and WP:LINKFARM I spent 20 minutes removing them from articles. "Someone" contacted nycfoto.com and said that I was eliminating the competition, so they naturally came here to protest. After being told by several editors told User;Nycfoto98 that the links were inappropriate, User:Delicious carbuncle started a Misplaced Pages Review thread saying I was "strong arming the competition" by removing photographs (even though almost none of the pages have my photos, I was removing external links, and I don't look at fellow photographers as competition), and then went to the thread to personally attack me and tell User:Nycfoto98 that they should upload their photos with their website in the file name. When asked on his talk page to remove the attacks, Delicious carbuncle instead struck them through and added a new personal attack. This comes off the heels of a failed WP:COIN thread that Carbuncle and banned User:Ionas68224 (see above) brought against me. This is textbook harassment and personal attacks. The comments will only serve to confuse User:Nycfoto98 and may cause issues with them promoting their website in new ways on Misplaced Pages. -->David Shankbone 22:06, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- David, we don't want to get into the conflict between you and DC, but we have to respond to the way you referred to our links as "inappropriate". As we pointed out numerous times, all links to NYCfoto that were found on Misplaced Pages linked directly to the photos related to the article. Perhaps in some articles our links didn't add a lot of unique content (while still being completely relevant), you deleted all of them -- in some cases it was the only source of photos listed in the article. While our links have been removed, links to unrelated content and fully commercial sites have remained. An example would be NYC Halloween Parade page where link to commercial website/store remained on the site. Another note: links to NYCfoto.com have been on Misplaced Pages for years, articles listing our links have been edited by a lot of people and nobody had a problem with the links. Several years ago, Misplaced Pages editor reviewed our links and decided they should continue staying on the site.Nycfoto98 (talk) 16:08, 15 October 2009 (UTC)nycfoto98
- David, I struck my comment after you left a message on my talk page accusing me of harassing you. You didn't ask me to remove them. I thought that I had made it clear that they weren't about any particular person and certainly not about you, just tactics I have seen used by self-promoters. You've probably seen a lot of the same things. I'm sorry if you felt they were directed at you. I added a new comment after striking so that other editors who had seen the comment or saw the history would know that it wasn't directed at any single editor. I also wanted to make sure that Nycfoto98 understood that my comments were facetious and not advice that they should follow, so they are better left struck than removed entirely. Again, my apologies for the misunderstanding. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 22:20, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- I dispute that this is resolved as a misunderstanding, particularly given the Misplaced Pages Review foolishness and the silly WP:COIN thread. -->David Shankbone 23:39, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- David, I'm sorry that you feel the need to continue this thread after I have apologised for the misunderstanding and struck my ill-judged facetious comment, but please stop trying to connect me with Misplaced Pages Review. Thank you. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 00:38, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- So you aren't Carbuncle on Misplaced Pages Review, you just share uncannily similar interests? Wow! -->David Shankbone 00:50, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- I am advised by WP:OUTING to neither confirm nor deny any guesses about my identity. Is this why you are accusing me of harassment? Because of off-wiki postings made by someone with a similar name? Do you think I am also Delicious Crab Uncle (talk · contribs) or Delicious Carmichael (talk · contribs) or Delicious Jacobsen (talk · contribs) or Carbuncle delicious (talk · contribs) or Carbuncle of taste (talk · contribs)? Perhaps the similarity with my username and interests is not an accident. Can we please leave this episode behind us and move on? I don't think there's anything to be gained for either of us. 03:25, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- WP:OUTING doesn't apply--that deals with real-life information like legal name. Or do you just go by "Carbuncle" similar to Cher? lol Being coy will hardly fly in your harassment campaign. Now if you'll excuse me, I have some work to do on Men of Israel ;-) -->David Shankbone 11:52, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- Ah, but if only you applied but a small part of these things you demand from others to yourself. But I digress, you were speaking of small parts, right? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 120.152.140.197 (talk) 13:03, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- David, I see now that the basis for your hostility toward me is my request to you in the recent COI noticeboard thread to voluntarily refrain from editing articles related to Michael Lucas, and to publicly identify User:WatchingWhales as one of your alternate accounts. Pete Forsyth, who said he is a good friend of yours, opined that there was nothing wrong with your actions but there was some COI and that I had begun the discussion in good faith. I closed the thread when it became clear that you were not going to voluntarily refrain from editing Lucas-related articles in order to avoid the appearance of a conflict of interest. I can't prevent you from believing what you want to believe, but my purpose wasn't to harass you - simply to ask you, as perhaps the most recognizable Misplaced Pages contributor, to be more mindful of how your actions may appear to some observers. The IP comment above is not from me, just in case anyone was wondering. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 17:14, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- Ah, but if only you applied but a small part of these things you demand from others to yourself. But I digress, you were speaking of small parts, right? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 120.152.140.197 (talk) 13:03, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- WP:OUTING doesn't apply--that deals with real-life information like legal name. Or do you just go by "Carbuncle" similar to Cher? lol Being coy will hardly fly in your harassment campaign. Now if you'll excuse me, I have some work to do on Men of Israel ;-) -->David Shankbone 11:52, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- I am advised by WP:OUTING to neither confirm nor deny any guesses about my identity. Is this why you are accusing me of harassment? Because of off-wiki postings made by someone with a similar name? Do you think I am also Delicious Crab Uncle (talk · contribs) or Delicious Carmichael (talk · contribs) or Delicious Jacobsen (talk · contribs) or Carbuncle delicious (talk · contribs) or Carbuncle of taste (talk · contribs)? Perhaps the similarity with my username and interests is not an accident. Can we please leave this episode behind us and move on? I don't think there's anything to be gained for either of us. 03:25, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- So you aren't Carbuncle on Misplaced Pages Review, you just share uncannily similar interests? Wow! -->David Shankbone 00:50, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- David, I'm sorry that you feel the need to continue this thread after I have apologised for the misunderstanding and struck my ill-judged facetious comment, but please stop trying to connect me with Misplaced Pages Review. Thank you. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 00:38, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
Template:Alexandra Burke
This template was deleted at TfD last December (discussion here) as being too premature. I noticed it had been recreated the other day and tagged it for CSD#G4, but it has now been recreated again. The template is still pretty bare bones; there's only two more articles to link to (her new single and album) than there was at the time of the original discussion. Is it still eligibile for speedy deletion, or would I be best pursuing this with another TfD? PC78 (talk) 22:58, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- I'd say take it back to TFD and suggest salting. Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • 23:00, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Lead article, a single and an album? I'd say that's fine. If anything, it needs trimming a bit, but certainly not deleting. J Milburn (talk) 23:47, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Really? I'd say three articles is way below the threshold for when a navbox becomes justified or useful. PC78 (talk) 23:50, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Lead article, a single and an album? I'd say that's fine. If anything, it needs trimming a bit, but certainly not deleting. J Milburn (talk) 23:47, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
Wikihounding?
I admit not knowing all of WP's rules and regs, but isn't it wikihounding when one or two dynamic IPs do nothing but revert me? They're all of the form (173.*.*.*): Indianapolis, Chicago, Indianapolis, Chicago, Chicago, and Indianapolis, among others. It may be one person with a dynamic ISP hub or changing place of work. He goes through the motions of presenting arguments but doesn't seem to read what he cites, while accusing me of sockpuppetry for using these IPs. -74.162.147.4 (talk) 01:40, 15 October 2009 (UTC) (User:Mbhiii)
- Could you provide some examples (diffs) of the reverts you're talking about? It's difficult to dig through contribs to locate the edits you're referring to. Equazcion (talk) 03:30, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- Okay I think I see what you mean. A block might be in order, and someone should look into the sock possibility. You may want to make a report at Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations. Equazcion (talk) 03:36, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
Altman
Alas there seems to be no general help desk (and this is a matter of a dead person). I'm therefore posting this here -- improperly, as no administering is (yet) needed.
This edit to Robert Altman makes the article 25% or so shorter. The stuff removed isn't obviously trivial. However, the edit looks thoughtful, if not necessarily beneficial. "RL" calls me away from my computer; could somebody with twenty minutes on their hands take a good long look and then do the right thing, whatever it may be? -- Hoary (talk) 02:01, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- Since the stuff wasn't sourced (much isn't), I have no problem with it. Give it some time and someone will revert it, for some reason. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 08:08, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- For future note, there is a general help desk. Its >here<. Livewireo (talk) 14:52, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
Templates for Deletion is now Templates for Discussion
I had to call attention to this, though everyone here probably would've seen it soon anyway.
Misplaced Pages talk:Templates for deletion#Requested move
The name change for TfD was the result of a run-of-the-mill move proposal at TfD's talk page, when I really think it should've been a community-wide discussion. I was personally not aware that this was being discussed, and only found out when a TfD log page I was watching was moved as a result of the close of the discussion. At closing, the move discussion involved 7 editors, which includes the closing admin.
I'm actually in support of the change, but I think we still need to remain vigilante about not handling decisions (especially big ones) in the "back-room". I'm not accusing anyone of malice, only of perhaps a lapse in judgment. Equazcion (talk) 03:04, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- This is ridiculous. It was discussed at the main discussion forum for such a move, Misplaced Pages:Templates for discussion. It stood for a week on the official movereq announcement page. There was a redirect from "discussion" to deletion" before, and now that is a redirect from "deletion" to discussion". May I also point out that agreement was unanymous and instantaneous among all those who commented. An important factor was that the recentintroduction of templates for merging had made the rename uncontroversial and imperative. We are not at fault if people sleep a week long, then wake up and say "oh, it's raining". Debresser (talk) 03:45, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- The entry at WP:Requested moves is a needle in a haystack of an immense perpetual backlog, and average editors don't even look there anyway. This was a more monumental proposal than the average page move, I think, and should have been advertised accordingly. WP:CENT would've at least been a good start, in my opinion. Equazcion (talk) 03:51, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- What is WP:CENT? I have 40,000+ edits, and never even heard of it. Talking about a "needle"... Debresser (talk) 03:54, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- I think you should spend some more time doing something usefull. Working in article mainspace, or improving something (like a template or a maintenance category), and making constructive additions to discussions. Spending less time on wp:ani (or wp:cent for that matter) will do us all a favor. Debresser (talk) 03:59, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- Eh. CENT would have been a good idea. ANI is about as widely watched as CENT. If anyone does actually object to this then we should move it back and post it to CENT. In the meantime, this seems like not a big deal. Moreover, changing the name of an internal page sholdn't be a big issue: The goal is writing an encyclopedia. It doesn't matter much if we call ANI "Happy, fluffy bunny page full of sunshine" (WP:HFBPFS). Moves are only an issue substantially when they impact either how the project functions or something that readers will see. JoshuaZ (talk) 03:57, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- The move was made because it was intended to change the way that aspect of the project functions. Equazcion (talk) 04:00, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- The move was made because it was the more logical name. Nothing changed in functionality. Debresser (talk) 04:03, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- I'm under the impression (perhaps the wrong one) that the name was changed so as to open TfD up for merge discussions etc., rather than focusing on deletion. If nothing changed in functionality, it seems to me that's only because certain people have begun using TfD for those things lately already, and now sought to make it official. Equazcion (talk) 04:11, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- Your first impression was wrong, the second right. Debresser (talk) 04:27, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- Which wouldn't be a problem, if it weren't the same people executing both the change in practice and the subsequent push to make it official. It seems rather machiavellian to me. An open proposal and wide community discussion would have been the better choice, I think. Equazcion (talk) 04:36, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- It is a good idea to widely publicize things like this. See WP:Publicizing discussions. Did anyone inform the various script writers (Twinkle, etc.) to expect this change? –xeno 04:06, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- Ooh. That's a good point. This could break stuff. JoshuaZ (talk) 04:08, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- User talk:Schutz was informed, because he does daily maintenance. Others have not been informed especially. Thank you for pointing that out. Debresser (talk) 04:27, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- Suggest changing this back procedurally (per the script issues) and starting a process RfC to discuss the proposed rename, posting to Village Pump and the Community Bulletin Board. That should give a better range of feedback from the community. Durova 16:15, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- I would note that the proposed change was discussed twice at Misplaced Pages talk:Templates for deletion and also at Misplaced Pages:Village pump (proposals) before it was posted at Misplaced Pages:Requested moves. I'm not opposed to even wider discussion, but this isn't something that was rushed through. It's just that there were other venues for discussion that weren't fully exploited. --RL0919 (talk) 17:22, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- VP discussion, TFD discussion. It seems like it was brought up a coupe times in the past and was discussed rather briefly. I don't think all three discussions can be said to combine to equal a wide consensus, but that's just my opinion. Equazcion (talk) 17:31, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- I would note that the proposed change was discussed twice at Misplaced Pages talk:Templates for deletion and also at Misplaced Pages:Village pump (proposals) before it was posted at Misplaced Pages:Requested moves. I'm not opposed to even wider discussion, but this isn't something that was rushed through. It's just that there were other venues for discussion that weren't fully exploited. --RL0919 (talk) 17:22, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- Suggest changing this back procedurally (per the script issues) and starting a process RfC to discuss the proposed rename, posting to Village Pump and the Community Bulletin Board. That should give a better range of feedback from the community. Durova 16:15, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- User talk:Schutz was informed, because he does daily maintenance. Others have not been informed especially. Thank you for pointing that out. Debresser (talk) 04:27, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- Reverse and have a full and open discussion about it. ╟─TreasuryTag►inspectorate─╢ 16:25, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- I've never heard of WP:CENT either. Support Durova's suggestion. --Cameron Scott (talk) 16:33, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- Comment A reversal would actually break WP:Twinkle, which has already been changed (here). Are there any other commonly used scripts for posting at TFD? Plastikspork ―Œ 17:22, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- Twinkle's rewrite following the move didn't seem to take all that long, so presumably it could be changed back just as easily. Plus, Twinkle's author would be notified ahead of the change this time, rather than after the fact. Equazcion (talk) 17:26, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- Support opening a discussion, but oppose reversal of move. As one of a handful of admins who helps out at TFD, I believe reversing the move would make the problem even worse in terms of "breakage". Plastikspork ―Œ 17:25, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
Ali Khamenei
There's several blog reports that Iranian Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei is in a coma. It might be advisable to preemptively protect the article. Dr. Cash (talk) 04:08, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- Indeed. Some might want to call Allah for help. That he should recover speedily. Others might want to call Jaweh for help. :) Debresser (talk) 04:37, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- We can't pre-emptively protect an article to prevent speculation and full protection would usually only be used if there was a major edit war going on, which there doesn't appear to be in this case. I suggest keeping vigilant for now and make sure only reliable sources are used to back up confirmed facts. If IP-users cause major problems in the near future, a request for semi-protection would be in order. Bettia (talk) 08:34, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- I think the rumours should be kept out of the article until there is something more substantial (realiable sources, not just blogs or 1 reliable source discussing the blog). I think this has a very high probability of being a hoax or just baseless rumours (maybe created in order to promote a blog.) I've removed the material for now. Agree that others should keep an eye on this. Offliner (talk) 08:42, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- An IP keeps reinserting the material, using a blog as a source. I don't want to edit war, so I wish an admin would take a look. Offliner (talk) 12:16, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- I think the rumours should be kept out of the article until there is something more substantial (realiable sources, not just blogs or 1 reliable source discussing the blog). I think this has a very high probability of being a hoax or just baseless rumours (maybe created in order to promote a blog.) I've removed the material for now. Agree that others should keep an eye on this. Offliner (talk) 08:42, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- We can't pre-emptively protect an article to prevent speculation and full protection would usually only be used if there was a major edit war going on, which there doesn't appear to be in this case. I suggest keeping vigilant for now and make sure only reliable sources are used to back up confirmed facts. If IP-users cause major problems in the near future, a request for semi-protection would be in order. Bettia (talk) 08:34, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- Rolled it back again and applied semi-prot until better sources than blogs emerge. EyeSerene 12:35, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- Re pre-emptive protection; firstly, policy is descriptive not prescriptive, secondly the language is ambiguous in that it says that pre-emptive protection is contrary to the principles of open editing rather than saying it is not permitted, and lastly it only refers to full protection. Therefore, if not in this case, it is possible that an article may be semi-protected upon determination of a probability that SPA ip's or new accounts will attempt to violate editing policies to such an extent that the project will be disrupted. Anyway there has been an instance of pre-emptive protection of an article pending reliable clarification of reports earlier this year, so perhaps it is more a case that WP:NO-PREEMPT needs reviewing. LessHeard vanU (talk) 12:58, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- In this case, I'd say BLP applies. This is contested material about a living person without reliable sources. It's not a matter of edit-warring to remove it. — The Hand That Feeds You: 14:59, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
7 current accounts with same user?
I have had to re-delete a deprecated section from 2009 in sports per a consensus at WP:SPORTS. The section had been reintroduced since the consensus decision was implemented a few months ago. I was curious about the user who reintroduced the section and discovered a similarity of edits by no less than seven "users" who clearly seem to be the same person. They are User:Information yes, User:Melfurd, User:Wiki editor 6, User:WP addict 0, User:Best name, User:Correct & improve and User:Qzm. While no real harm has been done that I am aware of, I doubt if the use of several different accounts to populate an individual article is proper practice as it creates a pseudo-consensus that presents a false picture. ----Jack | 04:44, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
User:Janes8266
We have here Janes8266 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) whose singular purpose since arriving on June 11 seems to be a crusade to expunge all references to a particular book that's critical of the Alcor organization, famous for being the location of Ted Williams' remains. The editor claims any reference to the book is "advertising". Maybe I should have started with the baseball project page, but I tossed a coin and started here instead. →Baseball Bugs carrots 06:32, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- In fact, this appears to be the tip of the iceberg (ha!) of an ongoing edit war at the Larry Johnson (author) page. Johnson, a former Alcor employee, wrote a book called Frozen, which alleges mishandling of Williams' remains. →Baseball Bugs carrots 06:46, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- Also taking this to the baseball page now. →Baseball Bugs carrots 13:12, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- With the single purpose'ness of the account, a note at WP:COIN might be worthwhile as well. And if there is debate over the reliability of the book, perhaps WP:RSN. Wknight94 13:37, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- Also taking this to the baseball page now. →Baseball Bugs carrots 13:12, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
Abuse from User:Njirlu
Njirlu (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), already repeatedly warned for his disregard of wikipedia guidelines and policies (primarily his persistence in adding fabricated info to a group of articles) and blocked for it, has returned with the same intent to plaster an invented name into articles. His generally rude language aimed at those who discourage that has now turned into severe abuse and disturbing threats, through a Romanian-language soliloquy on his talk page, targeting User:AdiJapan. Let me translate you what he has written so far: "denumire nativa idiotule, ignorantule" ("a native name, you idiot, you ignoramus"); "comunist indoctrinat" ("you indoctrinated communist"); "rusine sa va fie" ("shame on all of you"); "pana cand sa suport nesimtirea ??? sunteti mai rau ca niste caini!!!! ce oameni sunteti???" ("how long shall I have to bear the lack of sensitivity? you are worrse than dogs! what sort of people are you?"); "securist blestemat adijapan!!! va bateti joc... am adaugat nume nativ prostuleee!! si uite-te pe eurominority la harta si o sa vezi idiotule ca acolo scrie 2500.000!!!" ("you damned Securitate agent adijapan! you make a mockery of it... I added a native name you fool! and check out the map at eurominority and you'll see you idiot that it says 2500,000 !"; "De ignorant ce esti!! Cretinuleee!!! unde iti este deontologia?? escroculeee" ("The ignoramus that you are! You cretin! where is your deontology? you con man"); "o sa-ti dai seama cat de prost esti cat de curand!!! comunistuleeeeeeeeeeeee" ("you'll soon realize how stupid you are! you communist"); "Iti reamintesc Adijapan ca esti un functionar public si ca trebuie sa fi impartial. Si ceea ce faci tu este o incalcare a acestui principiu, si mai mult decat atat observ o atitudine agresiva asupra unor denimiri native!! Daca nu esti prost, vei intelege ce spun eu acum. Opreste-te la timp" ("I remind you Adijapan that you are a public official and should be impartial. And that which you do goes against this principle, and more than that I notice an aggressive attitude on the subject of native names! If you are not stupid, you'll understand what I'm telling you right now. Stop while there's still time for it"); "nu uita ca wiki nu este o taraba unde sa asezi tu, cretinule, rosiile dintr-un loc in altul!" ("do not forget that wiki is not a booth where you can move tomatoes from one place to the other, you cretin"); "Am un mesaj pentru cineva!! Esti o zdreanta ordinara!! Si iti vei asuma cat de curan toate mizeriile pe care le faci!!" ("I have a message for someone! You are an ordinary rag! And you'll soon get to live the consequences of all the filth you've been producing").
This user has long ago shown that he has nothing constructive to contribute to wikipedia, that his only use he finds for it is as a platform for his fringe agenda, and at this point in time he has become a liability to editors he comes into contact with. I would expect admins to consider at least a long-term block. Dahn (talk) 08:14, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- Mister adijapn is constantly deleting a native name of Aromanians. These is Romanian propaganda for 150 years! (Njirlu (talk) 08:41, 15 October 2009 (UTC))
- He does these deleting on wiki.fr wiki.en wiki.ro (Njirlu (talk) 08:42, 15 October 2009 (UTC))
- On the site eurominority.org, if you look on the map will see 2.500.000 aromanians in Europe.
(Njirlu (talk) 08:43, 15 October 2009 (UTC))
- Is a Romanian propaganda and they dont want to accept that Aromanians are Macedonians romanized and they have their own millenary language.They are a distinct ethnicity.
These is a silent genocid to Macedonians!!!!! (Njirlu (talk) 08:45, 15 October 2009 (UTC))
- Why adijan do these?? He delete my adds since 3 months ago. Why?
Is only a native name of aromanians. Who are not 'Aromanians'.They are macedon-armans.And in their language Makedonji-armanji. But adijapan cant accept these ethymologie!! Why? (Njirlu (talk) 08:48, 15 October 2009 (UTC))
- why Romanian operator ADIJAPAN delete bibliography , external links and a native name?? He is rasist? These is a question to all operators of wiki.en!! Please tell me why he does these ???(Njirlu (talk) 08:56, 15 October 2009 (UTC))
- I only gave a native name at native name section. There we can find armanji, rramanji, and corect to add and Makeodnji-armanji. These is how they call themselves!!! But adijapan dont accept these.Why?? Because in Romania is a genocide to Macedon-arman ethnicity!!!!(Njirlu (talk) 09:00, 15 October 2009 (UTC))
- A block for disruptive editing may be in order. Ncmvocalist (talk) 08:59, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- The "you'll soon get to live the consequences of all the filth you've been producing" remark is certainly out of order. Bettia (talk) 09:04, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- I'm finding it hard to find anything that is not out of order about his editing...threats, personal attacks, incivility, assumptions of bad faith, soapboxing, attempts to use Misplaced Pages as a battleground along ethnic lines, disruptive editing...seriously, other than legal threats, is there anything wrong that he's not done? The list goes on and on. Ncmvocalist (talk) 09:12, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- I have blocked Njirlu for a period of one month. --Aqwis (talk) 09:42, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents/Continued wikistalking/wikihounding and harassment
This "outsourced" thread from this noticeboard went largely unnoticed now for 10 days while the reporting user makes some concerning claims of continued wikistalking and systematic removal of a retired editor's edits that need to be investigated. Please offer input at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents/Continued wikistalking/wikihounding and harassment#Summarize and redirect back to original issues so that the issue located on that page can be addressed and the issue resolved. Regards SoWhy 08:49, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
User:Philip Baird Shearer
This user has on the article Terror bombing frequently ignores to consensus on the talk and repeated reverts consensus edits to enforce his on singular view for the article. It has reached the point where I feel some admin oversight is required. Sherzo (talk) 10:02, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- Have you (a) engaged PBS anywhere about this; and (b) informed PBS about this AN/I report? ➜Redvers 10:52, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- There are actually several lengthy discussions on Talk:Terror bombing in which xe has actively participated. There's been an RFC, and the page is currently being discussed for merger. Administrative oversight isn't required. There are already several knowledgeable content editors involved, including Black Kite and Fences and windows. But protection to stop the back and forth edit war between two versions, and bring discussion back to the talk page, that it seems to have left in favour of edit summaries on reverts, seems indicated. There's been back and forth for a month, here, with practically zero actual improvement to the article (in either of the preferred versions) as can be seen by taking diffs back to September. Uncle G (talk) 12:13, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
Expert eyes
Resolved – user blocked indefinitely for vandalismHi folks. I responded to an AIV report about El Kazmi Sahib (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). It wasn't actionable - few warnings, some apparent good edits, new user, etc. But I've been through their contributions and could use some extra eyes on the ones that are still (top) - the rest were vandalism or very very poor editing, so I rollbacked 'em. The ones remaining have made substantive changes that rollback/undo clearly isn't suitable for; but I'm unclear if the edits in question are useful. Ten of them, at the time of writing, could use more intelligent people than me to see if they need correction. ➜Redvers 10:49, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- The few i have viewed seem to have been edited in good faith, containing constructive information, although needing references for verification like
- Ecoman, I've been here since 2004. The above I already knew. That's why I was asking for expert eyes to double check, rather than, you know, someone random to come along and patronize me. Would you mind, please, thinking before typing on administrator noticeboards? Your presence here is kinda disruptive. ➜Redvers 11:21, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- sorry, didn't mean to patronize you. Thank you Redvers . Ecoman24 (talk page) 11:36, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
user:El Kazmi Sahib seem not to pay attention to advise. He is blanking his talk page, see His talk page history. he even blanked the good advise Redvers gave him. a big concern. Ecoman24 (talk page) 11:36, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- It means he has read the advice. So far so good. Nevertheless, before this thread got severely derailed, I asked for experts to have a look at his contribs. Lets wait for them. ➜Redvers 11:40, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- Looking at the Shia Islam article, I note that our new editor made almost exactly the same edit (including the same statistics and same two sources) as another editor made four days prior (which was alse reverted). Compare vs. . — Kralizec! (talk) 12:00, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- Ah ha! Thanks, Kralizec - that was the key I needed. He's not adding anything new, he's not deleting anything. What he's doing is reverting articles back to random previous versions for no reason at all. It's just plain (if sneaky) vandalism. On that basis, I'm blocking him indef as vandalism-only. ➜Redvers 14:20, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
Will Young
Trying to remove some low level vandalism and neither rollback or edit is working for me. It shows as being successful but clearly is not updating the article.
Can someone please remove the latest 2 IP edits?
Any idea why my rollback/edit is not working? It was fine on another article. Leaky Caldron 11:29, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- It's fine. The IP's edits were to add a line, then to remove it. So any edit removing both is null, and the article history doesn't bother recording it. ➜Redvers 11:32, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
Ah, ok. many thanks. Leaky Caldron 11:33, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
Opinion please
user:Jasepl seems to think that user:Marcosino Pedros Sancheza may be a sock of Druid.raul (talk · contribs). Marcosino Pedros Sancheza states that he has been a Wikipedian for over 3 years, yet his user page was only created on 7 October 2009, as was his account. Will look back later as I've got to go out. Mjroots (talk) 11:51, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
Unthinking vandalism of cited material by User:Ckatz & User:Ruslik0
Aurora (astronomy). Ckatz & Ruslik are tag-team reverting my corrections to this article, which I've cited sources for. They clearly have no idea of the subject material, having never contributed creatively to the subject, but that doesn't stop them repeatedly reverting my corrections.
I've been trying to get this edit, which was pretty much off the top of my head plus a little research, to stick, on & off, since 27 August, 2009. On that day I was in the process of putting together some proper refs, but Ruslik undid me with 15 minutes of my correction. So I thought, what is the point?
I recently chucked a couple of naked sources
in the text (I wasn't going to waste formatting effort only to be unthinkingly reverted) the article was still reverted. I was not surprised, and was right not to waste effort.
Ruslik reverts:
Ckatz reverts:
A sample of their edit summaries:
- restore more encyclopedic text
- I do not agree with removal of information
- It was reverted because the rewrite was not of the same quality as the previous version.
- Are you a physicist
They are clearly unthinking vandals.
Even when another user reverted back to my version, saying, "don't remove cited mateial", Ckatz came back with the ludicrous justification about quality.
This is a fending off exercise by these two users, who clearly have no desire to improve the article, and every desire to harass me.
They have partially succeeded in fending me off, because of them I have done no other research for this article, what would be the point?
Could these two users be topic banned from this article? Thanks. HarryAlffa (talk) 15:05, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- Your false accusations of vandalism are disruptive. Ruslik_Zero 15:13, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- This is not vandalism; it's an edit war. Simonm223 (talk) 15:24, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- Agreed, looks like a content dispute to me. dispute resolution seems a more appropriate path than ANI to me. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 15:27, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- Have to disagree. The material I'm replacing is unreferenced, and clearly wrong. Referenced material is being removed with spurious justifications. Repeated removal of referenced material is vandalism in my book. The targeting by these two users of me is harassment as well, but the real concern is the inaccuracies of the article I'm ironing out. Topic ban for these two please. HarryAlffa (talk) 15:49, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- The proper course would be to ask for assistance from the Physics or Astronomy workgroups--we have people here who can help resolve this and--quite possibly--write a better section than either of the two. DGG ( talk ) 16:00, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- I'd ask that anyone reviewing this first compare the versions in question, and note especially the latter paragraphs of Harry's version. From what I can tell, it does not appear to be encyclopedic text. As to his spurious accusation above, it would be of great benefit to first review Harry's contribution history, and his lengthy list of issues on this board and elsewhere. Really, that speaks more to this particular situation than anything else. --Ckatzspy 16:13, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- {edit conflict} Good call DGG. Simonm223 (talk) 16:15, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- DGG, kick this into the long grass? You see no need to examine the behaviour of Ckatz & Ruslik? HarryAlffa (talk) 16:22, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- (outOfSequence)Ckatz deceit and mischaracterisation, "the latter paragraphs ... it does not appear to be encyclopedic". Even if you agreed with this assesment, it is in no way justification for the removal of cited material. Notice the sleight of hand in directing you to other concerns. He seems to be saying, "Me and Ruslik have had trouble with this guy, so that justifies us harassing him".
- Ckatz has recently been unsupportedly dismissing the legitimate contributions of others as "vandalism" and "trolling". It may be that Ckatz would benefit from advice by more experienced editors/admins. --24.187.199.178 (talk) 16:46, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)You've been trying to edit war an underreferenced section into an article for two months, which is much harder to read than the existing version, you haven't gone to talk once, and you insist it's the other editors' problem?--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 16:48, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- Sarek, You refused my olive branch over your misunderstanding recently, now you turn up here with the perverse implication that I refused to discuss a point with others on Talk. This is a deliberate deceit. The proper procedure would be for Ruslik to start a thread on the talk before he reverted an article whose subject he knows little about. Neither he nor Ckatz made any such effort on Talk, in fact Ckatz almost universally refuses to contribute to the talk pages of any of the articles he involves himself with. HarryAlffa (talk) 17:41, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- The proper course would be to ask for assistance from the Physics or Astronomy workgroups--we have people here who can help resolve this and--quite possibly--write a better section than either of the two. DGG ( talk ) 16:00, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- This is not vandalism; it's an edit war. Simonm223 (talk) 15:24, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
(edit conflict){undent}Your difference link includes the "trolling" comment but has nothing to indicate Ckatz referred to any edits as vandalism. Furthermore how is this remotely relevant to the discussion at hand? Simonm223 (talk) 16:52, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- There's a link in the supplied diff that points to the vandalism comment, iirc.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 17:09, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- The difference link pointed to another editor replying to a (supposed) vandalism comment but does not appear to include CKatz mentioning vandalism. I'll take another look in case I missed something. Simonm223 (talk) 17:46, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
- Yeah, difference link does not include CKatz using the word "vandalism" or any variant therein. Still don't know why this is relevant since the only person accusing anybody of vandalism right now is HarryAlffa. Simonm223 (talk) 17:48, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
Talk:Walt Disney and 92.11.217.30
92.11.217.30 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) This is the revival of something that turns up every so often, some insidious, baseless stuff about Disney's personal life. I've warned the user to stop posting it. Might need a little help here if he won't stop. He's edit-warring with several users over this. →Baseball Bugs carrots 17:13, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
Countryboyjohn
Countryboyjohn (talk · contribs) has some very questionable edits, to say the least. His first creation, Rascal Flatts Live, was speedied as G12. This is a legitimate album, but a fairly obscure one for which no secondary sources exist. After that came The Vault (Rascal Flatts album), a misrepresentation of an existing digital-only album with a different name (evidently, it was listed under the wrong title on Amazon). From there, he went into the straight-on hoax of The last rodeo (Brooks & Dunn album), receiving a level 4 warning for vandalism soon afterward. This was followed by two legitimate articles, Greatest Hits (Big & Rich album) and Due west (band). However, both were written without sources or categories, and entirely in run-on sentences with the first letter of every word capitalized (e.g. "Due West Are A New Country Music Band They Have A Brand New Single "I Get That All I The Time" The Music Video Has Been In Rotation On CMT And GAC And Is Currently On GAC's Top 20 Chart."). Another user cleaned up the former, and I moved the latter to Due West and added sources.
Later on, John created two more blatant hoaxes: Greatest Hits (Chris Cagle album) and Dear Mother, both of which were added to the artists' articles and 2009 in country music by 71.125.113.138 (talk · contribs · WHOIS), who is most likely this editor logged out. This IP shows the same editing patterns: capitalizing the first letter of nearly every word (diff), rarely using punctuation, not using rowspans properly in tables (diff), and making several edits in a short period of time (usually to clean up the egregious typos). Both the IP and the editor made false claims of Jeff Bates having two new albums out in 2010, claims which fooled even a longtime editor of country music articles (not me).
Normally, I would say that an editor with both vandalism and good-faith edits should get only a short block. However, even this editor's good-faith edits are of such low quality that they're nearly unusable, so I'm not sure what should be done. A block is most certainly in order for the hoaxery, but for how long? I have already asked the admin who warned this user for his hoaxery, but said admin has been busy the last couple days so I'm taking it here. Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • 21:28, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- Bumping since this got lost in the shuffle. Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • 17:16, 15 October 2009 (UTC)