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:::No. I haven't said that self-identifying names should be the only consideration, but as the long-standing convention says, for self-identifying entities this should be a major factor, and in fact a preferred factor (in line with the MOS) in forming a consensus about a disputed name. The convention in its standard form gives clear advice on determining the self-identifying name of an entity. On the over-all issue, many positions are entrenched, and we will probably need mediation if a consensus is to be achieved on any alterations to the long-standing guidance here. ]] 23:33, 7 September 2009 (UTC) :::No. I haven't said that self-identifying names should be the only consideration, but as the long-standing convention says, for self-identifying entities this should be a major factor, and in fact a preferred factor (in line with the MOS) in forming a consensus about a disputed name. The convention in its standard form gives clear advice on determining the self-identifying name of an entity. On the over-all issue, many positions are entrenched, and we will probably need mediation if a consensus is to be achieved on any alterations to the long-standing guidance here. ]] 23:33, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
::::Xander, I think we all agree that self-identification is ''a'' major factor. where we disagree is that we think it ''isn't'' the ''preferred'' factor. As I said above... the ''primary'' criteria should be commonality... and then, if we can not figure out a most common name, we look at other criteria. I would certainly place self-identification up near (or even ''at'') the top of those other criteria, but the primary one is commonality. ] (]) 02:23, 8 September 2009 (UTC) ::::Xander, I think we all agree that self-identification is ''a'' major factor. where we disagree is that we think it ''isn't'' the ''preferred'' factor. As I said above... the ''primary'' criteria should be commonality... and then, if we can not figure out a most common name, we look at other criteria. I would certainly place self-identification up near (or even ''at'') the top of those other criteria, but the primary one is commonality. ] (]) 02:23, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
:::::The problem is that in some cases self-identifying names need to trump the so-called "Common names", even when the Common name seems clear. I've raised what I see as the main ones:
:::::*where the clear "Common Name" is in some way objectionable to the entity concerned
:::::*where the clear "Common Name" is considered seriously inaccurate by the entity concerned
:::::*where the clear "Common Name" is out of date due to a verified change made by the entity concerned
:::::In these situations (There may be others) the use of self-identifying names in place of a "commonly used name" provides the best solution - and one that is actually used by WIkipedia editors. And of course this is the reason that Naming Conventions provide exceptions from the General "rule". ]] 23:23, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Revision as of 23:23, 8 September 2009

Archives: /Archive 1 /Archive 2


Reality-based guideline

  • It is stupidity to ignore all references and continue to call it something because it is the opinion of a few editors that it needs to be called a specific name. From this post

This is either gross exaggeration, which is unhelpful, or a serious claim that all references to Burma call it Myanmar. Which?

One is entitled to invent arguments; one is not entitled to invent facts. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:26, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Marked as guideline

Somehow, someone marked the talk page as a guideline. There was a notification posted on Village pump (policy) about the change. I'm not sure what's going on, but the guilty party shoudl probably clean up after... whatever happened (if they haven't already).
V = I * R (talk to Ω) 02:24, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

First things first

Why is this even separate from Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions? I'm sure that there's some old conflict that drove the creation of this separate from WP:NC, but is that actually a good idea? Most of this seems like a rehashing (and slightly forked version of) what is already in the "main" guideline.
V = I * R (talk to Ω) 05:33, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree that it would be better to have this on the policy page, rather than editors being referred to two pages that seem slightly inconsistent. SlimVirgin 05:38, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
There seem to be two things going on. First, this is pointed at the Macedonia affair, and not just in the text under dispute. More importantly, however, these ideas were being worked out in 2005; some of this duplication is because the ideas here were adopted elsewhere. Real duplication should be taken out, and then we'll see what we have. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:14, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Yes, all this naming advice is way too confused - it seems to have been written by people whose aim was not to be clear, but to win arguments (or rather to compromise between competing desires to win arguments). I would put all the general guidance on one page (WP:Naming conventions, though I would rename that to "WP:Article naming" or something, because it's not really conventions), and move all the specific stuff (i.e. about articles in particular subject areas - this often really is conventions) off into specialized pages. And have a navigation template so people can find their way around these pages, like the Manual of Style one.--Kotniski (talk) 08:32, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

The policy page is quite terse, and restricted to principles, th goals most people agree on without qualifications. This is largely advice on how to satisfy the principles - a logically separate thing. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:10, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
I don't know if I agree - the point of nameconv is to resolve disputes on naming. Here we have a guideline on the subject of resolving disputes on naming. Policy shouldn't say anything like "it is policy that Italy is called Italy", or "User:Bob is banned from the Italy article", or "an aircraft should be named ...". Policy is not specific to some subset of our articles - a policy sets out the principles, and guidelines expand on them for certain specific cases.   M   20:01, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
Do we really need Geographic name servers. Check geographic name servers such as the NGIA GNS server at http://gnswww.nga.mil/geonames/GNS/index.jsp to be policy? It's advice, and not particularly good advice at that; compare WP:NCGN#BGN. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:09, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
That's exactly the sort of thing I'm getting at. The reason that so many of those statements with specific advice seem to keep cropping up is simple coat racking. The separate pages exist, with separate sections for specific areas within them, so people naturally start adding more examples and exceptions. Let's just cut all of that off now, and roll everything back into WP:NC. We'll inevitably end up removing some point or other because it'll be overlooked, but primarily we'll just be getting rid of a ton of redundancy. Nothing is set in stone regardless, so even if it turns out bad or something is missed, we can simply fix that later on.
V = I * R (talk to Ω) 05:37, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
I disagree on the structural point. In general, we should give advice - not this particular advice - and keep it in guidelines; even with the flaws of GeoNET, if it helps some editors, it's worth the electrons to mention it. But we should not make it policy; policy should not have details which may be changed any time a department in Washington gets a new website. But I think we may have wandered from this page - when it is unprotected, do by all means seek out and remove redundancy and we'll see what's left. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 13:36, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
I'm kind of asking a more general question. Why have 20 different Naming convention guidelines/policies to begin with? This discussion is about this page, but the thought process could easily and correctly be conflated to the others as well, with little change. I see one or two real distinctions between the general gist of all of them, and then a morass of exceptions and specific recommendations that are a real mess when you get right to it. You know better then most others here that I was ready to go in the opposite direction recently, Sep. After I was reversed and we talked about it some though, along with the general idea behind WP:PROJPOL, I've basically come full circle on this. There are a couple of real distinctions that need to be made (Japanese romanization springs immediately to mind), but there's no reason those narrow issues couldn't be discussed in a sub-section on the page. Maybe it's just me as well, but I don't find the distinctions between policy and guidelines to be that well defined. There are parts of all of these naming convention documents that either are or attempt to be policy, and a large part that is "only" guidance. That's not going to change by and splits or mergers that I can see.
V = I * R (talk to Ω) 14:23, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
Most of them exist because they're about different subjects. GeoNET doesn't particularly belong here; but it should be discussed in WP:NCGN because it's only useful for geographic names. This page should have generally useful advice - and if it were restricted to that and to advice which is actually useful, it would be significantly shorter than it is. I don't see advice on the same subject in several places as a major problem - but then I am often glad to find any advice at all. As long as we take guidelines as advice - and not as rules, the mark of an editor who hasn't caught on - more advice than necessary is better than less advice than necessary. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:40, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
eh... I see where you're coming from, but it really depends on the advice being offered. More advice can sometimes lead instead to a rigidity in attitudes, which ends up causing more trouble then it solves. You mentioned taking these as advice instead of rules, which I completely agree with, but I think that half of the problem with these is that there are so many specified exceptions that the whole system is perceived as a set of rules which users must abide by. That very attitude is apparent on this talk page, as a matter of fact.
V = I * R (talk to Ω) 16:15, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Mormons

If Mormon is reliable on this, and they have a source, both The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and Mormon are self-identifying names; indeed the LDS so strongly identify themselves with it that they sought to trademark it.

This offers two characteristic problems with the proposal to use self-identifying names; too many subjects have two, and the difference between them matters. The other problem is what if several instutions self-identify with the same name? As here: the trademark office turned down the application because the name, like aspirin, had become generic - it meant any follower of Joseph Smith, including all the other Churches which claim that identity. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 13:49, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

You are talking from a position of ignorance; never a good proposition. Many of the groups within the Latter Day Saint movement reject the name Mormon and always have. There is not a single group that uses Mormon as its name; they all have a preferred name for their church. Such is the same for Baptists; they each have a name for their church. It is like calling people idiots. Yes, it composes a large group, but they each have a name regardless of how stupid they might be. --Rider 18:10, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
  • The full self-identifying name of the United Kingdom is "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland". The shorter, or Commonly-used version of this name is United Kingdom.
  • Baptists may vaguely self-identify as "Baptists". They also more vaguely self-identify as Christians. However this is irrelevant, since we are not talking about the people, but the organisations. What do the organisations self-identify as? See the long List of Baptist sub-denominations. Examples are Southern Baptist Convention, American Baptist Association, and Baptist Union of Great Britain. Incidentally the latter is a purely self-identifying name since it covers only England and some of Wales, rather than all of Great Britain. Xandar 22:25, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
    • Precisely; there are two self-identifying names, quite different in length, elegance, and precision. (With a little thought, I'm sure Xandar can come up with half-a-dozen more.) Even these two differ in implication: United Kingdom was a self-identifying name before 1922; the others would differ more. A preference for self-identifying names leaves us no way to choose between them; and very often all the plausible candidates are, or can be described as, self-identifying names. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:05, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Discussion of "Discussion Misplaced Pages:Naming conflict"

The discussions in each of the sections above appear to me to have devolved into disputes of names of actual articles. This is a case of the cart before the horse.

Discussions of guidelines which end in success tend to use undisputed examples as a starting point to reach consensus on what changes, if any, need to made to the guideline under discussion. patsw (talk) 16:13, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Some of what I've read above I would call "gaming" -- tweaking proposals to have the outcome for one or more disputed articles which the proposer advocates as opposed to working out general principles which can be applied neutrally. patsw (talk) 16:46, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

I know that many of our other policy pages have noticeboards to deal with specific article issues. Is there a Naming conflict noticeboard? If not, perhaps one should be created. Then the discussions here would center more on what the policy should be, rather than how to apply it at any given article. Blueboar (talk) 18:00, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
WP:RM tends to serve that purpose, at least for article names.
One reason examples come up is the contention (so far weakly supported) that we do actually use self-identification as a decisive criterion. Since self-identifying names tend to be common in English, the difference is difficult to see without cases where there have actually been naming discussion.
One recurrent discussion, not uncontested, but repeated and clear consensus, is that we use Kiev, not Kyiv; the paragraph under controversy was quoted there (and ignored). An uncontested example is that we use Weimar Republic, not German Empire, although one of the failed compromises of the supporters of the Weimar Constitution was to retain the name of the state. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:14, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
I was going to mention WP:RM as well. We could set up a noticeboard though... we could start it off as just a redirect to the Misplaced Pages talk:Requested moves page, and see if it generates significant traffic.
V = I * R (talk to Ω) 01:29, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
NO! no notice board. That is a function of WP:RM, (at any time there is a list of requested moves currently under discussion) and as discussions take place on the talk page of article under discussion (the place that all changes to a page should be discussed), it is also in the most convenient place for anyone who wishes to review past requested move of the article. -- PBS (talk) 09:50, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
Yea, that's basically what I've been thinking as well (and I just said something similar at Misplaced Pages talk:Requested moves). Still, an underlying point here seems to be that the recent discussions here and what is actually on the policy page are tending to be overly specific. We should be looking to document established, uncontroversial, and generic ideas on these conventions. There seems to be a desire on at least some people's part to carve out specific exceptions for things, and that's not a good thing.
V = I * R (talk to Ω) 12:14, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Protected version

The page has been protected again, but this time not in its long-standing stable version, but in a form that is a considerable non-consensus change from that, and which is a rather contradictory mish-mash, with some strange non-consensus additions. Protection of this version does NOT imply any consensus to change to the protected version as it stands. Xandar 22:49, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Can you be specific? What do you consider contradictory? Which additions are strange? --Kotniski (talk) 09:16, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
Funny how the protected page is always the wrong version. --PBS (talk) 09:53, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
The exact wording on these documents rarely makes much of a difference regardless. Still, if there's anything that everyone agrees on that really needs to be changed, someone can always put up a {{editprotected}} with a request.
V = I * R (talk to Ω) 12:16, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
Page protection should be a rollback to a long-standing stable version and not to a arbitrary version including matters under dispute. If it were up to me I would use this March 31, 2009 version as the protected baseline and let each edit since then go through a consensus review so that nothing is added, removed, or changed by stealth. Here is the diff for that March 31, 2009 version and the protected one to get an idea of the mischief that can occur with a an arbitrary pick for a protected version. And so I urge the admins to revert to March 31, 2009 and consider edits since then not be have been reached by consensus. patsw (talk) 12:20, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
Rather than waste everybody's efforts in that way, perhaps someone can just say what changes they actually object to, and why, so we can avoid rolling back improvements? (It's not like any version was ever stable because it was widely accepted; it was stable because no-one was paying any attention to it.)--Kotniski (talk) 12:39, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
In fact this version from 26 April would be the most recent stable version, if we were adopting that approach.--Kotniski (talk) 12:50, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
This edit is disputed because the original text was stable and well-understood, the edit substantially and controversially changed the role of self-identification in the guideline, and was made without consensus, and therefore the last version of the page that I would consider to reflect consensus is April 17, 2009. patsw (talk) 13:28, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
There is no consensus; so no version of this page can reflect it - except possibly one which simply states that there is a dispute, or is silent on the matter.
The arguments here demonstrate conclusively that the original version of the page was not well-understood, since there are two or three understandings of it running around.
The Cabinda parable was twice deleted by SlimVirgin because she saw no meaning in it at all; the one unopposed improvement to come out of all this is Schmucky's edit condensing it into the point that the argument "but somebody else doesn't like it" is not helpful to naming discussions. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 13:52, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
For the record, I wasn't saying that I was satisfied with the edit of this page at any point as not in needing of improvement, I am agreeing with the editor who pointed out that the protected version of this page was not a consensus version of the page. I don't think the April 26 edit I pointed out was to make a less-understood part of the guideline better-understood, but to substantially and controversially change it without consensus. Could you point out to me where there is a summary of the multiple understandings that you mention? Also, is this a mere misunderstanding of the guideline as written (from March 2009) or an attempt to change the guideline? What is it? patsw (talk) 14:31, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
See the analysis below, for most of these questions. The chief dispute about understanding is Xandar's insistence that should always be borne in mind = "must prevail", for which see most of his posts above. This is largely an observation that the few sentences removed are vague, are unparallelled elsewhere in our naming guidance (or, for some of the Cabinda passage, repeat what is already said here), are debatable (and not consensus), and are being used to support this minority view on a single, current, content dispute.

But the changes since April 17 offer a handy agenda: I omit tags and one paragraph break. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:16, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Bickering

Are we seriously wasting time bickering over which version should be protected? Let's not waste time. People act as if every inaccurate statement (well, they ones they think are inaccurate) in policy is going to ruin hundreds of articles daily. Not the case. And people need to be aware of the discussion.   M   22:25, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Apparently, we are. One thing to keep in mind is that all of this is a carry over from a dispute over the name of a specific article. Personally, I'm willing to just stand by and let them all duke it out, since nothing is going to stop them. More importantly though, none of the changes that their talking about are going to really mean anything to the rest of us anyway. Maybe we can actually get something done here a few months down the road.
V = I * R (talk to Ω) 01:45, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
Several of us care about guidance, and about the specific article only as one instance of guidance. Whatever happens to it, the changes below show considerable tightening of the guideline; more could be accomplished, but it's not urgent. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:10, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Relations with policy

If this guideline appears to conflict with NPOV or our naming policy, Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions, policy takes precedence and this page should be changed to reflect that.

Added by SlimVirgin, reverted to by Hesperian. An application of our policy on what guidelines are; the key phrases are direct quotations.

  • Is this a guideline on naming conflict, or a meta-guideline on how to write the naming conflict guideline? And isn't it redundant to the principle that policies like WP:NPOV and WP:NAME have precedence over all guidelines? Was there a case where this was in doubt and therefore needed restatement here? patsw (talk) 16:21, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
My position is that this page is a breakout of WP:NAME, because NAME incorporates this via summary style. It is surely lesser than NAME, but should be read as part of it. I don't disagree with what SV added, but is not quite right if this is considered as already part of existing policies. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)
Do you mean this sentence or this guideline? The sentence is substantially included in policy; this guideline is not. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:26, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
NAME does not summerise, it is policy and this is a guideline. In exactly the same way that WP:V is policy and WP:RS is a guideline, and for exactly the same reason as this dispute this line was specifically added to that policy to make it explicit that V had precedence over RS. -- PBS (talk) 20:45, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
NAME defers to THIS Naming Convention and others by stating that the specifics and rationale are found here. The claimed "conflict" between the guidelines of PMAnderson and others is therefore entirely bogus. The sentence that has been wrongfully added here is just so outrageous as to be beyond mockery. "Policy takes precedence, and this page should be changed to reflect that." WHO should change the page? When? Why? With what consensus? I've never seen anything like this statement in any guideline. It seems to be some form of self-justification by those trying to fundamentally alter the naming convention without consensus. What nonsense! Xandar 22:10, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
NAME treats this guideline exactly like it treats a dozen others; they are tools which should lead to the objectives NAME lays down. Policies don't defer; I remind Xandar that the phrase he calls outrageous is a direct and literal quotation of policy. Indeed, there is nonsense about; but not from PBS. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:18, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
Xandar there is nothing exceptional in saying that like V over RS the naming convention policy takes precedence over the guidelines, It was pointed out at the start of this section, and IMHO you have not come up with one convincing argument why this relationship is between this guideline and the naming conventions policy is any different. There is no reason why this guideline can not explain and enhance the policy but it should not contradict it. That is why for example saying use modern source, will help in the case of changes in self identifying names that change (as happened with Prince (musician)) -- or any other entity who's name changes (eg a UN sub-commission) -- because it does not contradict the central tenets of the naming conventions. But if, as a non involved admin, I close a WP:RM and someone who has expressed an opinion appeals to a guideline rule that contradicts policy, I will follow policy every time, and from some of the other comments I have seen from experienced admins, they would do the same thing. If you want self identification to have any weight then it must be phrased in such a way that it complements policy and does not contradict it. -- PBS (talk) 09:34, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
Are you saying that as written you know of an inherent conflict between this guideline and WP:NAME, or that there is one but you can't identify it?
Giving weight in this guideline to self-identification as opposed to critic-identification where the most common name does not exist derives from WP:NPOV and WP:BLP and not WP:NAME in any case. patsw (talk) 12:54, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
The N in NPOV means that we don't give weight to either point of view as opposed to the other. BLP may mean that in some cases (where the subject is a living individual) we would avoid a name that the person could legitimately find upsetting; no more than that I think.--Kotniski (talk) 13:43, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
Like NAME, BLP, encourages the use of reliable sources. As to whether I think there are conflicts between this guideline and NAME it depends on which version of the guideline I look at over the last month. I think it does no harm to have SV's statement at the top of this guideline and given the comment by Xandar that starts "NAME defers to THIS Naming Convention...", it has positive advantages, so I think we should reinstate SV statement to make it clear to everyone and hopefully that will help concentrate minds so that a compromise can be reached. --PBS (talk) 16:52, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
I see harm in adding any statement, the meaning of which is unclear. What does the it in the previous paragraph "...to make it clear to everyone" refer to?
That is PBS's post, not either text. "Make it clear" is normal idiom for "make the situation clear to everyone" Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:47, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
(Again) Does the statement refer to the application of this guideline to naming conflicts, or is it a meta-guideline on how to write this guideline? Why doesn't every Misplaced Pages guideline open with a similar caution? patsw (talk) 17:36, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
Because usually one only has to suggest that an editor reads WP:Policies and guidelines for them to accept this: "Policies have wide acceptance among editors and are standards that all users should follow. They are often closely related to the five pillars of Misplaced Pages. Where a guideline appears to conflict with a policy, the policy takes precedence". But if some editors do not, (and Xandar's comment above shows (s)he does not), we should make it explicit in this guideline just as was done in WP:V when there was a long running disagreement over WP:V and WP:RS. See WP:V "Because policies take precedence over guidelines, in the case of an inconsistency between this page and that one, this page has priority, and WP:RS should be updated accordingly." Once this is done it will become far easier to harmonise this guideline with policy.-- PBS (talk) 11:17, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

I didn't see an answer in the comments above to my question:

  • Is this a guideline on naming conflict, or a meta-guideline on how to write the naming conflict guideline?

Does "policy takes precedence..." mean that, already hidden in this guideline, there is something that is going to trigger this "policy takes precedence" action in the normal handling of naming conflicts? If that's the case, why not just harmonize the policy and the guideline now? One possible reading of this is "The Naming Conflict guideline is defective by design, so you need to refer to WP:NPOV and WP:NAME anyway". patsw (talk) 03:00, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

I'd certainly like to see the policy and the guideline harmonized. Or the guideline turned into an essay.--Kotniski (talk) 13:43, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
The wording of this guideline contained two passages which were in fact being cited against both WP:NAME and WP:NPOV. You will find them at #Self-identifying_names_.5Bremoved.5D and #Cabinda_.5Bremoved.5D. (Whether they actually supported the purpose they were being used for is another question; they're both vague.) Those of us who came here from the Naming Conventions disputed those passages both because of the vagueness and because of the potential for abuse, and they're not in the protected version. I don't think this applies to anything in the present text, save possibly tweaking There should be a distinction to There is a distinction or Some users distinguish.
By and large, thereafter, this page can be used, as a guideline, as advice, without consulting policy.
But texts evolve, and abusers are ingenious. If at some time another argument from this page results in something contrary to WP:NAME or WP:NPOV, we should follow policy; and if the argument was plausible, we should amend the misleading or mistaken statement which gave rise to it.
This is how conflicts between Misplaced Pages-space pages are normally detected and handled. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:40, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Those wishing to alter this long-standing guidance by stealth keep trying to pretend that there is some conflict between this Naming Convention and WP:NAME. However the so-called conflict exists only in their own minds, (or has been invented for their own convenience) since there IS NO CONFLICT between a policy, and a convention listing EXCEPTIONS to that policy. Since PMAnderson and some of his allies INSIST on being obtuse, let me spell this out once again: WP:NAME says on PMAnderson's shibboleth of using "common" names:

  • Use common names of persons and things
  • See also: Misplaced Pages:Naming conflict
  • Convention: Except where other accepted Misplaced Pages naming conventions give a different indication, title an article using the most common name of the person or thing that is the subject of the article

In other words, in the very section where WP:NAME says "Use common names", it immediately adds a link to the longstanding text of this page, Misplaced Pages:Naming Conflict.

Why does it do this? We read on... It says: "Except (root word of EXCEPTIONS) where other accepted Misplaced Pages naming conventions give a different indication" then use the most common name. In other words: other accepted Misplaced Pages naming conventions - the most prominently linked being this one - provide EXCEPTIONS to the general advice of using the most common name. This is not hard to understand, so perhaps PMAnderson's difficulty is that he doesn't WANT to understand. The exceptions are long-standing and for very good reasons, such as those already discussed on this page. Xandar 00:02, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

(Other) naming conventions appear on the naming conventions policy page. This is a guideline to those conventions. --PBS (talk) 00:30, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
No. This is an accepted Naming Convention. It states that clearly on the page. It is listed twice on the policy page, and is listed in the naming Conventions list. Xandar 23:13, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Use common names

This page asserts three principles:

  • The most common English-language use of a name takes precedence, if there is one;
  • If the common name is not the official name, use the common name. This is not intended to prevent the use of scientific names of taxa, nor the use of the official name for disambiguation. When there is no common English name, use the official name.
  • If there is neither a common nor an official name, use the name (or a translation thereof) that the subject uses to describe itself or themselves.

The italicized portions are a direct quotation from the original version of the page, the same single-person edit that produced the language on self-identifying names. The second point has been reworded for clarity, but the first sentence has not changed. (That this did not say what to do when there is no common English name is one of the flaws which show that this page has only now had serious attention paid to it.)

Kraftlos suggested this be restored; Xandar would like to change the third point completely, and claims this is original intent.

  • Chris O reworded this to a much more complex text in February 2008, but that still says that we should use self-identifying names when there is no common name; the new version may still be seen under the header Proper Names.
  • I would say there's a consensus on common but not official. Does it refer to authority that is granted by law, or by membership, or by recognition given to a group by reliable sources over a domain, or something else? patsw (talk) 16:55, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
  • This might be a better way of expressing the third bullet: "When several names are used enough to be considered "common" or "official", use the name (or a translation thereof) that the subject uses to describe itself or themselves."
Rationale. The problem with are trying to solve here is a dispute among names for which it is disputed that there is a single "most common" or "official" name. When the choice among several names presents itself, the tie breaker is the name that subject self-identifies as. patsw (talk) 16:55, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
I have no objection to the use of self-identification as a tie-breaker; but the conflict here has been over the alleged principle (as the #straw poll puts it) Preferred names overrule the most common name. The "stable consensus" is being reverted for on the grounds that it says this - which it doesn't. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:06, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
Where was preferred defined? patsw (talk) 17:18, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
See the last pages of the archive - and the arguments in the poll; it's another term for the "name an organization or person uses to identify itself". Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:23, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

The third bullet point here is the complete nonsense, which has been reverted to several times without consensus. It attempts to reverse the long-standing guidance.

If there is neither a common nor an official name, use the name (or a translation thereof) that the subject uses to describe itself or themselves.

What's wrong with this is that it falsely infers that self-identifying names should ONLY be used when there is neither a common, nor an official name. Apart from being confused (What's the difference between an official name and a self-identifying name?), it would create a situation where self-identifying names would never be used if there were a "common" name. Since there is nearly always a common name of some sort, this would mean that self-identifying names would virtually never be used! This is a weaselly construction that not only conflicts with the rest of the guidance, it is the opposite of what the guidance in its stable form currently states. It also goes against WIkipedia practice, the Manual of Style, and common sense. As has been shown from many examples, self-identifying names are quite often used as being preferable to some "common" names - either because the common name is inaccurate, derogatory, or not up to date. The third bullet point is therefore unacceptable. I have proposed an alternative "third point" (if a third point were needed at all)...

  • If there is unresolved conflict regarding the common or official name, use the name (or a translation thereof) that the subject uses to describe itself or themselves.

This is far more in line with the guidance and practice currently in force. Xandar 22:33, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

    • The wording to which Xandar objects is the original intent, even the original wording, of this guideline. It was undisputed for years.
    • It was modified by its author to If the name is a self-identifying term for the entity involved and there is no common English equivalent, use the name that the entity has adopted to describe itself, still incompatible with the wording Xandar has invented. This language, being undisputed, still has the presumption of consensus.
    • No guidance or policy supports using the name the subject uses to describe itself; if there were, this isolated guideline might be less desperately defended. It may well be contrary to WP:NPOV, as an adoption of the point of view of the subject. There was a lengthy discussion of the idea of adopting the point of view of the subject some years ago, and it was concluded to set up a fork called Wikinfo which would do so, but we would not. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:17, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
My reading of WP:NPOV is that in disputed cases, the name a subject chooses is for himself or themselves is given more weight for the article name that the name given by the subject's supporters or subject's critics.
I think a distinction needs to be made between (a) the case of there being a single, undisputed, most common name A, and a self-identified name B, for which is not disputed that it is not the most common name and (b) the case of there being several names in common use A, B, C, etc. -- where there is no consensus which name among A, B, C, etc. is the most common name and one of those names is also the name used for self-identification. In the former case, the single, undisputed common name should be the article name. In the latter case, the tie-breaker should be the self-identified name.
I would also make the case this has been past practice -- simply because it's difficult to achieve a consensus on the single most common name when there's evidence of several names in common use from several independent sources -- and that's not considering for the moment the political advocacy cases.
I'm also looking for a definition of official name if that is to be part of the proposal for the guideline. patsw (talk) 00:59, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
The name endorsed by the local authorities; in most cases where there is an official name, but no common usage in English (like obscure villages in Peru), this will be the only name available and so a reasonable default. (In such cases, self-identifying names will require the OR of going there and asking the inhabitants; whereas the Peruvian census has been published.) Septentrionalis PMAnderson 01:15, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Third party opposition

* Does a third party, a conflicting claim, or minority view oppose the use of this name?

Schmucky added this to the list of subjective criteria which should not be used in naming disputes. With this, he is content to see the Cabinda parable gone. Noone has opposed this addition, as far as I can see.

  • Is there an actual example where there was an undisputed case of the application of this or a demonstration of its necessity -- i.e. an editor argued that a third party conflicting claim should be taken into account, and the immediate consensus was that this third party conflicting claim should not be taken into account in resolving a naming conflict? What motivated this addition to the guidelines? patsw (talk) 17:16, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
    • Yes, of course - this aims at the practice of certain editors of insisting on FYROM for the Republic of Macedonia, because it's the position of Greek nationalists and the Greek Government that Macedonia is unacceptable for the Republic; see WP:ARBMAC. WP:ARBMAC2, and the discussions there cited. Schmucky is deeply involved in the Beijing-Taipei feud, and wants to use this to defend one of the Chinese governments against the other (I forget which; I avoid that mess). Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:21, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
This was supposed to be obvious, but I'd be hard pressed from four years ago (today marks my four year anniversary of involvement on this guideline according to the edit history) to remember where this discussion took place. It's a basic statement of NPOV:FRINGE that the removed example of Cabindan's was supposed to demonstrate. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)
I understand. I'm reading about about the International Red Cross, and cases come up where there is no position you can take which is going to be seen by everyone as neutral, but the option doesn't exist to do nothing, so you have principles which guide you, so at least if you are being criticized for taking a side (when you think you are neutral in a dispute), you can't be criticized for being arbitrary about it as well. patsw (talk) 18:17, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
The Schmucky addition could posiibly work. Xandar 22:36, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
I think there's an implied addition to the text above -- but which one?
  • Does a third party, a conflicting claim, or minority view oppose the use of this name for reasons other than those given above?
  • Does a third party, a conflicting claim, or minority view oppose the use of this name for reasons given above? patsw (talk) 01:16, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
Remember the context this comes from: Subjective criteria (such as "moral rights" to a name) should not be used to determine usage. These include:
  • Thus, the mere fact of opposition is an invalid argument (Yes, this was an argument actually and perpetually employed over Macedonia.)
  • Opposition for the other reasons mentioned is an invalid argument because the other reasons are.
  • Opposition for valid reasons should be rephrased to just the reasons, and will then be as valid as they are. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:07, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Anglicization

The choice between anglicized and native spellings should follow English usage (e.g., Besançon, Søren Kierkegaard and Göttingen, but Nuremberg, delicatessen, and Florence)."

A direct quote from WP:NAME, proposed by Kraftlos, to replace

Note that anglicised versions of names are not simply native names with diacritics removed; "Zurich" is still a German name, as it is merely a spelling of Zürich without an umlaut. A name with a substantial difference in spelling (such as Moscow for Moskva, Munich for München) represents a true anglicisation of a native name.

This is dubious as a claim of fact; Zurich is an anglicization, if a moderate one, just as Gottingen is (note spelling). As guidance, it does not reflect consensus; there is no consensus on which Zurich is more common, and the new sentence (which is both policy and consensus) says we should use whichever is usage. Pages which reflect one point of view on disputed matters have a perfectly good function at Misplaced Pages; but they're {{essay}}s, not {{guideline}}s.

I disagree that reflecting one choice is better is never a guideline. On Chinese language issues, there is an extensive guideline, because it is about basic romanization, not anglicization. 北京 doesn't say anything in English, and could be romanized into a dozen readable 'English' spellings. Standardizing on one romanization method (generally pinyin) as an enforceable guide has been extremely useful. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)
There is a gradually worked out consensus on how to transliterate Beijing; but this is like giving the adherents of the RoC and the PRC paragraphs in different guidelines to each declare their own views. But all I claimed was that there is no consensus on the specific question of Zurich. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:58, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Self-identifying names

These names are not simply arbitrary terms but are key statements of an entity's own identity. This should always be borne in mind when dealing with controversies involving self-identifying names.

This is multiply interpreted. Xandar would read it as commanding that we always use self-identifying names; it certainly doesn't say that.

This is also part of ChrisO's original edit; it had never been discussed on this talk before the recent events, and it has rarely been quoted in actual naming disputes. (And hardly ever successfully: it was twice quoted in an effort to move Kiev to Kyiv, once in an effort to move Bollywood to something else, and several times against the move from Myanmar to Burma.)

I see no evidence that the metaphysical statement These names are not simply arbitrary terms but are key statements of an entity's own identity is the consensus of the wider community; it is warmly disputed above.

I don't think the wording above works as a guideline, but conceptually we ought to be able to arrive at a consensus as to what weight is to be given the self-identifying name when it is in conflict with other names using undisputed examples. Giving examples of disputes only shows that reaching consensus wording will not be trivial. patsw (talk) 17:37, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
I see three classes
  1. Self-identifying names that are common usage. (Gordon Brown) This class is very numerous, and doesn't help us to decide.
  2. Self-identifying names which are not common usage, because they're complex (Federal Republic of Germany).
  3. Self-identifying names which are not common usage, because they're controversial (Great Socialist People's Libyan Arab Jamahiriya, also 2.)

As I see it, this is a rationale for the use of self-identifying names where there is a dispute, and it helps to explain the convention. Of course those who dislike the convention, also dislike the rationale, but I believe it is helpful and explains why, where conflict exists, preference should go to the name an entity chooses for itself, rather than one that a third party would give him or it. On patsw's categories:

  1. The first category is more or less uncontroversial
  2. The second category is often covered by using the common version of the self-identifying name. ie. where there is no controversy Germany is accepted shorthand for FRG. When East Germany existed things were different.
  3. The third category is Self-identifying names which are not common usage. This isn't always because they are controversial. It can be because they are recent changes like Kolkatta, haven't for various reasons been generally accepted, like Guangzhou (Canton), or because the common names are inaccurate or offensive to the group named, such as Canadian Indians.
Xandar 22:45, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
Actually, Guangzhou is very well accepted. I rarely see it written as Canton unless what I'm reading is several decades old. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)
I observe that Xandar himself uses East Germany, not the German Democratic Republic; that's what this change supports. Likewise, at the time, and in our historical articles on the Cold War, the Federal Republic was and is called West Germany. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:40, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
Strangely, though, at the time we wouldn't have been able to use East Germany. It was only after the Ostpolitik that the West Germans stopped referring to it as Middle Germany, so we would have been breaching out WP:NPOV rule. Skinsmoke (talk) 01:24, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
True enough on the facts; but that's Schmucky's amendment: we don't let the West Germans decide what to call East Germany. So we follow English usage, which was clear - and still is. Similarly, in English, and so in Misplaced Pages, Hindenburg was President of the Weimar Republic, not of the German Empire. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 01:37, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
(EC) I think these three categories are an accurate breakdown of self-identifying names. I think the guidance from WP:UCN is helpful in the case of the third category:
"Also, some terms are in common usage but are regarded as offensive (Mormon Church, for example). In those cases use widely known alternatives (The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints). When in doubt, check a mainstream reference work. A term can only be considered offensive if a verifiable, authoritative source can be quoted as citing it as such."
Sorry to repeat that again, but I think it helps to read things afresh. If we eliminate the problem of offensive names, what to we have left to worry about? Names that people find offensive that reliable sources do not consider offensive? Names that are perhaps not the preferred name, but are chosen for recognizably? I think if we bring this guidance over and perhaps restate it (with a reference to WP:UCN) I think we'd solve most our problems. --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 01:44, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't believe the word controversial applies to Great Socialist People's Libyan Arab Jamahiriya for Libya. That case would be covered by the principle that it is not disputed that Great Socialist People's Libyan Arab Jamahiriya is not the most common name for Libya. The hard cases:

  • recent changes -- displacing what was the most common name (and this is where a definition of official name would be helpful) -- as in renaming the Triboro Bridge to the Robert F. Kennedy Bridge (a weak example as bridges do not have political constituencies)
  • inaccurate -- this touches on my point made earlier -- can 20 editors in 2009 be smarter than 2 editors were in 2004?
  • offensive -- I'm not going to support offensive names for pages, but I don't see where this originates in other Misplaced Pages policies, i.e. to favor the less offensive name over the more offensive name. patsw (talk) 01:42, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
Isn't a possible Sixth Avenue (Manhattan) / Avenue of the Americas name conflict resolved by the fact that Sixth Avenue could be demonstrated to be the most common name, i.e. used far more often in varied sources. There actually is a Avenue of the Americas Association but it is not engaged in advocacy of AveofAm. over 6thAve. for identification of the avenue. patsw (talk) 03:24, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
Precisely. That is the guidance of the rest of the naming conventions, and some of us would like this page to conform to them. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:21, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Quite a few points have been raised since my last posting, I'll respond to them in order:

The RoC self-identifies as either "Republic of China" or "Taiwan" depending on who won the last election, so they self-ID as both. That the article at "People's Republic of China" is NOT at the article name "China" is not an an example of self-identification, because the PRC claims as self-ID the short, common name of "China" which partisans in the RoC deny the PRC use of on Misplaced Pages. The China issue isn't about self-ID at all. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)
PRC is a self-identifying name, alongside just plain China. The article isnt at Red China or Mainland China. Similarly Republic of China is the self-identifying name used most of the time by the government of that state. The common name is quite clearly Taiwan. So we are using the principal self-identifying name, even though it is not the common name in English and very strongly contested by Mainland China. Xandar 23:50, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
  • Kraftlos's point on offensiveness is helpful, but doesn't cover all the bases. Do we really need third-party sources to prevent the proposed new guidance moving Dalits to the Common name, "Untouchables" or First Nations to the common name "Canadian Indians"? Is Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia provably offensive? Is "gypsy" provably offensive for Romany or not? Is Saigon offensive? There has been debate on this page and elsewhere. Some common names may also not attain "offensiveness" per se, but remain inaccurate, so that they do not properly name a person or other entity with due accuracy. Canadian Navy is one such term, as is Coptic Church, and Quakers, all of which currently divert to the more accurate self-identifying name.
    • If the self-identifying name is more accurate (for the Quakers it is not), we use it for that reason, for which there is already a guideline. Xandar's proposal is as redundant as his claims are false. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:33, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
      • No. WP:PRECISION says nothing that would lead us to use Society of Friends over Quakers. Neither is more or less ambiguous. It is simply a choice of self-identifying over common name. Xandar 23:29, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
        • What part of If the self-identifying name is more accurate (for the Quakers it is not), did you fail to understand? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 01:32, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
        • If you are actually wanting to gain consensus rather than edit-warring and using underhand and abusive methods consistently in order to get your way, youy are going to have to change your current arrogant and childish attitude of hurling personal insults at your opponents. You have no policy backing for your increasingly thin and desperate attempts to avoid the basic use of self-identifying terms and it has already been pointed out that WP:PRECISIOn in no way says what you pretend it does say. There is one reason we use "Society of Friends" because it is the self-identifying name of the organisation. Xandar 00:18, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
  • Similarly the problem of recent changes of name is not solved by PMAnderson's clunky solution of waiting until enough reliable sources have noted and published the new name - a process that could take several years. Imagine waiting years to change the name of Cape Canaveral from Cape Kennedy, or Namibia from "South West Africa" on this basis. When Cheryl Tweedy married, how long would we wait before changing the article name? One of the benefits of Misplaced Pages is being up-to-the-minute. Is this to be lost because of some editor's curious new aversion to the continued use of self-identifying names?
    • When Cheryl Tweedy married, how long would we wait before changing the article name? At least until the newspaper reports which are reliable sources for the marriage, which will also answer the question of whether she continues to perform under her maiden name. Contrast Elizabeth Taylor. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:33, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
      • So, We're suddenly limiting "reliable sources" to newspapers now - without including any of the others? So who decides on which articles we don't have to go by what books, yearbooks, encyclopedias and other publications say, but can just interpret "reliable sources" as recent newspapers only? How recent? The balance of articles in the last six months? Two years? Would this new rule apply to people, Nations, Towns, individuals? It would require a whole new and complicated naming convention simply to replace the convention of using self-identifying names, with something far less responsive, and far more likely to cause continuing rows. Xandar 23:43, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
  • Finally this page IS a Naming Convention, and so doesn't need to "conform" to some people's ideas of what they personally and controversially extrapolate others to mean. In fact the principle of using self-identifying names is also emphasised in the Manual of Style. Xandar 20:57, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Since PMAnderson INSISTS on being obtuse, let me spell this out once again: WP:NAME says on PMAnderson's shibboleth of using "common" names:

  • Use common names of persons and things
  • See also: Misplaced Pages:Naming conflict
  • Convention: Except where other accepted Misplaced Pages naming conventions give a different indication, title an article using the most common name of the person or thing that is the subject of the article

In other words, in the very section where WP:NAME says "Use common names", it immediately adds a link to the longstanding text of this page, Misplaced Pages:Naming Conflict.

Why does it do this? We read on... It says: "Except (root word of EXCEPTIONS) where other accepted Misplaced Pages naming conventions give a different indication" then use the most common name. In other words: other accepted Misplaced Pages naming conventions - the most prominently linked being this one - provide EXCEPTIONS to the general advice of using the most common name. This is not hard to understand, so perhaps PMAnderson's difficulty is that he doesn't WANT to understand. The exceptions are long-standing and for very good reasons, such as those already discussed on this page. Xandar 00:02, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Usually

Commonly used English translations of self-identifying terms are usually preferred per Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (use English) guideline. For example: "Japanese" and not Nihon-jin.

Usually removed. For what it is worth, WP:UE does not weasel-word, and says transliterations are mandatory.

Cabinda

Suppose that the people of the fictional country of Maputa oppose the use of the term "Cabindan" as a self-identification by another ethnic group. The Maputans oppose this usage because they believe that the Cabindans have no moral or historical right to use the term.
Misplaced Pages should not attempt to say which side is right or wrong. However, the fact that the Cabindans call themselves Cabindans is objectively true – both sides can agree that this does in fact happen. By contrast, the claim that the Cabindans have no moral right to that name is purely subjective. It is not a question that Misplaced Pages can, or should, decide.
In this instance, therefore, using the term "Cabindans" does not conflict with the NPOV policy. It would be a purely objective description of what the Cabindans call themselves. On the other hand, not using the term because of Maputan objections would not conform with a NPOV, as it would defer to the subjective Maputan POV.
In other words, Wikipedians should describe, not prescribe.
This should not be read to mean that subjective POVs should never be reflected in an article. If the term "Cabindan" is used in an article where the Maputan-Cabindan controversy is relevant, then the use of the term should be explained and clarified, with both sides' case being summarised.

Removed twice by SlimVirgin. This is a description, under other names, of the Macedonian naming conflict; its reflection on Misplaced Pages is now resolved under WP:MOSMAC2, which considered and rejected the advice in the last paragraph. It is less than clear to editors who haven't seen the Macedonia disaster, and insofar as it contains explicit general advice, the advice is repeated elsewhere in the guidelines, including Schmucky's addition.

I have no problems with the example. It makes two major points, which might be able to be covered in other ways, as by Schmucky's addition. Xandar 22:58, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

What was the advice given in the last paragraph above which was rejected? Reading WP:MOSMAC2 it's not clear what you are referring to. patsw (talk) 01:47, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
The mandate to explain the controversy. Now that I read it again, it can be read as weaker than I thought; but that's the problem; it's vague. But one of the issues at MOSMAC2 was whether to have a footnote explaining the controversy every time the Republic is mentioned in an article on Greece, and the mere presence of this provision can be so read with less distortion than you see around you.
In any case, MOSMAC says: Additional material pointing the reader to the naming dispute will be used only where it is contextually relevant, i.e. in passages focusing explicitly on this aspect of Greek foreign policy. The naming dispute will not be referenced in places where the Republic of Macedonia is routinely mentioned, for instance in purely geographical description. which says when not to mention the conflict rather than when to mention it. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:00, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Applying NPOV to Naming Conflicts

I wanted to break out the discussion of what's implied by NPOV to naming conflicts with this proposition (which I think was implied above, and with which I disagree):

  • In naming conflicts, equal weight is given to a subject's critic's identification and a subject's self-identification.

Subject here refers to a person, group, locality, landmark, etc. and assumes there is a source of criticism for the subject using a different identification. patsw (talk) 17:56, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Completely unacceptable, because most "critics" will be fringe beliefs. This is guaranteed to raise massive flameouts on talk pages and page move warring in any partisan issue. NPOV requires balanced weight, not equal weight. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)
I find more misuse and/or misunderstanding of NPOV than anything else. A current example is the article Burma. Burma has not existed for over 20 years, but the title of the article is Burma rather than Myanmar. One of the major reasons for the current title is some editors felt it would be POV to use Myanmar because the military coup is disputed an there continues to be a segment of the populace that rejects the current government. The problem is that it is highly POV to give credence to the small minority against the government and not to an existing government that has existed for over 20 years. In addition, Myanmar is far and away the most common name for the country (do a google search and you will find Myanmar gets 10 times as many hits). Policies need to be written so clearly that editors have a difficult time of perpetrating such misuse of the policies to achieve their personal objectives.
Schmucky, under what context are critics always fringe? I must be missing the context from which you are speaking. Critics may be fringe, but they may also be and often are the common position of society.--Rider 18:46, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
The framing of that entire debate is actually assuming a POV stance. On both sides. the way to maintain neutrality is to use other people's opinions, through reputable sources, not to try adjudicating the debate ourselves. That's my major concern with all of this, and why I continue to believe that the best course to take for this page is to merge it back into WP:TITLE. We don't need, and indeed don't want, all of the details that this guideline offers. The entire reason that this is so problematic is because there are simply too many "rules" here. The only real rule is: what helps the encyclopedic content? This guideline certainly isn't doing that right now.
V = I * R (talk to Ω) 19:02, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
Agreed, VIR; sometimes, however, there are no independent sources - and quite often the subject does not admit there are independent sources: "All who are not with me are against me". Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:52, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
Burma v Myanmar, exactly. The article should be at Myanmar. The issue, as everyone says, is "What names do reliable sources use?" We've let POV critics rule the conversation, when that argument ("the junta doesn't deserve to name the country") should be tossed aside entirely, no matter how many people make it, unless and until they are backing it up with overwhelming data from sources.
StormRider, I said most, not always. We are on the same page on this issue. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)
Would the two of you, and everyone else on that page, mind looking at the actual sources for Burma? Most of them are independent, and many of them use Burma - an actual majority of the Western newspaper coverage, by my count. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:52, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
It depends on the subject; NPOV's actual rule is in proportion to the prominence of each. If the subject is respectable and the critics are fringe views, this implies we should give it most weight - but in that case, that's what reliable sources will do.
If, however, the subject is Time Cube, where it is itself a fringe view, and the critics are reliable, we should give them most weight. Now, in that case, they still call it Time Cube, because they have no better name for it - and so the sources do.
If the subject and its critic are about equally respectable, like the Greek and Macedonian Governments, we give equal weight to their views, and considerable weight to the views and usage of neutral independent observers. By this time, most neutral independent observers join the Republic of Macedonia in using Macedonia or Republic of Macedonia, so we do likewise. (Macedonia is ambiguous with Macedon, and so forth, so we wound up with Republic of Macedonia; neutrality is not the only criterion for names.) Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:44, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
First I think of this guideline as a means to avoid cluttering up WP:NAME with WP:NPOV and WP:BLP considerations. This should be the place where all policies and guidelines become coherent for resolving naming conflicts. Secondly, a mere neutrality wave of the hand doesn't do the job as ultimately articles do need a name (as well as redirects) rather than a NPOV-ish "present both sides". Finally, as a fresh reader of Burma/Myanmar, it seems it is the case where (1) critic's identification was given more weight than self-identification, and (2) the resolution was the result of a poll rather than a consensus. I'm not a subject matter expert but it would seem to me that Myanmar is both the most common name and the name the national government uses for itself. I will have to read the archives. patsw (talk) 19:49, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
Oh, God, that mess. There were an awful lot of "down with the tyrannical regime" voices; there were also an awful lot of "up with the heroic self-determination of the Myanma people" voices. I think they balanced out. In the middle, a third lot of us actually attempted to consider what English usage presently is, and on balance concluded that Burma is still more commonly used - even a statement by the BBC that they used Burma because it would be more widely understood. Actual statements on usage by reliable neutral sources are rare, but WP:NCGN says A name can be considered as widely accepted if a neutral and reliable source states: "X is the name most often used for this entity" and recommends the use of widely accepted names. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:58, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
That sounds like the application of what I wrote above, when there's no consensus on what the most common name is, the tie-breaker among them should the name used for self-identification. Are people making the proposal that equal weight is given to all the common names, and you poll the article editors to pick the article name? Is that the name conflict resolution guideline? patsw (talk) 20:18, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
No, the name conflict resolution guideline is that we use what name appears to be most common in English reliable sources, according to the evidence before us, and that we see if there is consensus (in our sense) on the question of fact to hand. Admins are free to discount those yelling about the sacred rights of this, that, or the other, and not addtessing the question of fact. Consensus is also permitted to set aside the guideline for any advantage to the encyclopedia that may arise from one or another name (precision, consistency, or so on). Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:27, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
"Admins are free to discount those yelling about the sacred rights of this, that, or the other, and not addtessing the question of fact." Too bad they don't do it. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)
That includes the yelling about the sacred right of self-determination, too. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:46, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
Self-ID has some determining value in a naming conflict, but certainly not an over-riding preemption over a common name.
Third party denial of either a common name, or a self-ID, has no determining value
Isn't that what is agreed on? SchmuckyTheCat (talk)
Most people would, yes. Some people would not give it any (talk to User:Born2cycle; I don't think he would); and on the other extreme, there is Xandar. I think we need to specify when a name is undisputedly self-indentifying though, for reasons which will take a new section. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 01:07, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Septentrionalis, the sentence above starting with "No" is followed by text which I read as a "Yes": In your view, is it all the common names get evaluated to determine one which is the most common, selected only on the basis of its frequency of use, prominence, and this is ultimately consensus driven -- and there is no consideration at all given for self-identification apart from its frequency of use and promience? patsw (talk) 20:54, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

I have rarely seen self-identifying names prevail against usage, when the question arose; even when it doesn't actually get discussed, we tend to adopt it except for obscure articles; for instance, do use East Germany and North Korea, because they are the common names.
It is relatively rare for two names for exactly the same thing to be fairly equally common, but when it is, I have no objection to letting self-identification be one of the factors that decides. (I would not be surprised, in such cases, to find that both were self-identifying, in which case we must resort to other factors anyway.) Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:08, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
I'm trying to avoid petty disputes among editors over the methodology to determine the most common among several common. In my view I would make both official usage and self-identification usage tie-breakers when several common names are candidates for the article name. Since no one took up my request to define official, let offer mine: include as official: governmental, or national and recognized international standards bodies based on membership, and exclude from official: corporations, associations, clubs, etc. for the purpose of assigning a name to an entity. patsw (talk) 21:33, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
I don't think such a situation has ever happened; it requires both that a subject have a self-identifying name - most of our articles are about things that don't - and that several other names, not used for self-identification, are about equally common. I therefore have no objection to allowing for it, if it can be done without circumlocution. But I doubt there is any consensus on how much weight to give to official and self-identifying names in such a case; perhaps we should say so. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:37, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

The self-identifying name of an entity should be used as a criterion for the naming of an article about that entity when a conflict arises over naming. That is the standing criterion for the activation of this guidance. It is not, as PMAndersdon suggests, guidance only to be applied on the rare occasions when two common-names have the same number of google hits! That is to place too much emphasis on "common names", and would make this guidance largely redundant. If the only advice given by this guidance when a dispute continued after "use the most common name" had failed to end it, was to again repeat "use the most common name", (as PMAnderson suggests,) then this Naming Convention would be utterly purposeless! What this convention is intended to do is to offer new solutions when such problems arise. One of those additional solutions is to use that entity's self-identifying name or the English translation thereof!

Ohms Law stated "The only real rule is: what helps the encyclopedic content? This guideline certainly isn't doing that right now." And where do you get that idea from? Many examples have been produced by those of us who support the Convention, that it has been followed advantageously in numerous cases and helped to solve naming conflicts. ZERO examples have been produced that the use of self-identifying names has ever created any problems at all. This convention has never created any problems, except with the small group of editors who suddenly want to change it! Xandar 23:10, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

  • The self-identifying name of an entity should be used as a criterion for the naming of an article about that entity when a conflict arises over naming. That is the standing criterion for the activation of this guidance. A conflict arising is the standard condition for consulting this guideline; indeed it is the usual condition for having a naming discussion at all. Therefore this asserts that a self-identifying name should always decide naming disputes. Only Xandar and his proxies believe that, and a handful of our most desperate nationalists.
  • It is not, as PMAndersdon suggests, guidance only to be applied on the rare occasions when two common-names have the same number of google hits No one has ever suggested this, and I've said comparable; indeed, I follow most of the naming conventions in deploring the use of Google when anything better can be found.
  • It is WP:NAME#Use common names of persons and things that supports the use of common names. Xandar is too kind; that policy was here when I got here.
  • Many examples have been produced by those of us who support the Convention, that it has been followed advantageously in numerous cases and helped to solve naming conflicts. ZERO examples have been produced that the use of self-identifying names has ever created any problems at all. Backwards. Zero examples have been produced where (this paragraph of) this guideline caused trouble; because until now it's hardly been used at all, and only by isolated Ukrainian and Indian nationalists of the sort we deal with by ignoring. On the other hand, the only examples produced have been
    • instances where the self-identifying name is either the common name, or the accurate name, and thus in compliance with other guidelines.
    • Instances where two self-identifying names are in conflict, and Xandar's proposal is useless.
    • instances where the question has never been discussed at all.
    • Instances, like Kiev, where we consistently prefer the common name to self-identification.
This paragraph has only been used at all in the last class; and there, of course, not successfully. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 01:05, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
Firstly, PMAnderson, do not call people "my proxies", this is falsely accusing people with as much right as you and your friends to speak, of bad faith, and is improper and uncivil. Kindly stop this personalisation of the issues. Secondly do not assume what other members of the Misplaced Pages community believe about the Naming Conventions. You consistently try to paint you and your allies' views as if they are the standard view. They are not, as this guidance, and its longstanding acceptance exemplifies. Thirdly, I did not say that self-identifying names should Always decide naming disputes. Stop distorting what I post.
I think most people will see that NUMEROUS examples have been produced of self-identifying names being used, and NONE of anywhere this principle has caused problems. In many instances self-identification has been used as an effective tool to end disputes and produce accurate, up-to-date and non-insulting article titles, where "common names" would have done the reverse. Your attempts to pick holes in these many examples have generally proved fruitless. Republic of China and Derry are just recent examples given of the use of Self Identifying names on Misplaced Pages.
The policy "use common names" as has been pointed out MANY times, says a) GENERALLY, and b) "except where other naming conventions say otherwise." It's quite easy to understand. Xandar 15:43, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
If you do not want your friends called proxies, you would have done better not to give them instructions and they would have done better not to obey the instructions. Xandar canvassed some eleven editors in this fashion; most had the sense to ignore him. The rest of this is Xandar's unsupported opinion. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:57, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
I don't know how you have the gall to make such mendacious and false allegations when you yourself were canvassed here by Knepferle, with the express intention of altering the guidance in order to influence the Catholic Church debate. You and your little clique want alter this longstanding guidance sectretly and dishonestly, with no one here to keep an eye on you. That's why you improperly forum shopped to switch the debate from forum to forum to try unsuccessfully to gain a consensus for your politically-motivated changes. That is why you failed to inform other editors of your various improper moves and proceeded to hold votes and edit-war on this article, making major changes without consensus in an utterly improper manner. We can see now why you have been banned from certain topics for your past activities. Xandar 23:40, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
Knepferle asked my opinion, stating his own; he then asked me to correct any inaccuracies. These inaccuracies might have what he disliked; they might have been his own posts; sometimes they have been. This is WP:Third opinion as it should be done, and as it is encouraged by policy; but I don't suppose Xandar can tell the difference between that, neutral requests at relevant policy talk pages (also encouraged by policy), and howls of radical changes and We need to preserve the original guidance.Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:24, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
Never mind the utterly unsupportable accusation of canvassing on my part, even if the hypocrisy is glaring and unfortunate. The more severe falsehood above is that our interest in this guideline is with "with the express intention of altering the guidance in order to influence the Catholic Church debate".
  • I have not participated in the Catholic Church naming debate whatsoever. (check for yourself)
  • My neutral message to Pmanderson did not mention the Catholic Church article - (check for yourself) and my only other communication merely points out Xandar's involvement at that debate (check)
  • Pmanderson joined this discussion on 17 Aug (check), and contributed substantially here well before his first entry to the Catholic Church naming debate on the 19 Aug (check)
I strongly advise editors following this debate to check these facts for themselves with the help of the diffs given above, to compare Xandar's version of events with what actually happened, and decide for yourself how accurate a representation they are.
Trau, schau, wem. Knepflerle (talk) 01:05, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Examples?

No instance has been presented where

  1. there was a naming conflict
  2. Self-identification was used as an argument on one side,
  • a: Both names are self-identifying
  • b: The self-identifying name is more common
  • c:self-identification was not the reason for the decision.
  1. The naming conflict was resolved,
  2. The naming conflict was resolved in favor of the side claiming self-identification. There are some four or five instances, including the last Burma debate, where self-identification was claimed and the decision went against it; also two of the efforts to move Kiev to Kyiv. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:05, 4 September 2009 (UTC)


"Republic of China" vs "Taiwan" is a naming conflict.
"Republic of China" is a self-identifying term. "Taiwan" is much more prevalent in common usage.
The naming conflict was resolved, years ago, but continues to rage.
The naming conflict favors the self-ID, "Republic of China".
and
"People's Republic of China" vs "China"
PRC is a self-identifying officially used term, and so is China. China is the shorthand common name. RoC advocates prevent the use of "China" as the common name of the PRC because the RoC exists.
Naming conflict is forced to resolve to the official longform name.
I think both of these go against the spirit and intent of this guideline (and parent policies). SchmuckyTheCat (talk)
If you can call the Republic of China settled - and clearly you yourself do not agree with it- then it would seem to meet the four qualifications. I phrased #2 badly; as you observe, both PRC and China are identifying names, so Xandar's proposal does not help - any more than with Londonderry against Derry, both self-identifying names; tweaked above.
But there are two more elements:
5. Neither name is ambiguous. This is, I think, one reason the present arrangements were acceptable to many people: Taiwan for the ROC is ambiguous with the island (a different subject, with a completely different history section; they were disjoint in 1937). China is ambiguous with the country (one China, two systems) which includes Taipei. China is three thousand years old; the People's Republic of China is 59.
6. The self-identifying name was not chosen to avoid expressing a point of view. And this, of course, is the main reason why your preferred solution of China/Taiwan has not been adopted. Both Governments claim to govern "China"; to call the Beijing Government China is to accept their POV, to call them "Mainland China" is to deny it. (Much of the time where #2 is true, it is the self-identifying name which expresses the POV; thus, for the ROC, there is no perfect solution.)
Thank you for thinking this through with me. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:24, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

A large number of examples have been presented where self-identifying names have been used instead of common names. And no, there does not have to have been a conflict recorded on the talk page or elsewhere for this to be so. PMAndersons "qualifications" are not binding on Misplaced Pages, and I have still yet to see one real case produced where this guidance has caused or exacerbated problems, rather than helped solve them.

  • Kolkata vs Calcutta
    • Case 2: decided on the basis that Kolkata is more common in Indian English; Case 3; not resolved: under discussion again.
      • No. It is decided on the fact that it is the self-identifying name. Use local English is a) a guidance about spelling and other usage, not naming, so irrelevant. b) not apparent unless only very recent sources are singled out.
  • Canadian Forces Maritime Command vs Canadian Navy
    • Case 5: Ambiguous.
      • Again. This is the principal self-identifying name
  • Ho Chi Minh City v Saigon
    • Case 2: Ho Chi Minh City is more common in current usage; it was of course not used before 1975.
      • No. Saigon is still far more common for describing the city.
    • In Xandar's opinion, only. Xandar keeps repeating the same lot of cases; most of them were never decided on the principle he would urge upon us. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:00, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
      • Your silly attempt to pretend that I am the only person opposing your schemes for this page a refuted across this and the other relevant talk-pages. You pretended that Taiwan is not named Taiwan because the island has the same name. This is not true, as the Iceland and Australia examples proved. Taiwan is named Republic of China because that is how it self-identifies. Xandar 22:31, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Now for some real examples, all being case 4 (rejection of a self-identifying name because it's not English usage):

All of these, except Germany, which is undisputed and enormously observed, are the result of positive decisions, taken on the basis of usage, not of self-identification. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:23, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Almost this entire list shows another problem with "self-identifying names".Anyone can, and PoV-pushers will, claim that X is the "self-identifying name for Group Y". Normally, they will mean "it's our name" or, as with the ineffable Xandar, "I like it". How can this be proven? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 03:32, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Rival self-identifying names

This is, I realize, what really drives me; I come from the discussion on placenames around WP:NCGN. Talk about self-identifying names can render many of the worst of these insoluble, unless carefully limited to the case where there's only one.

Many of our naming disputes over places are ethnic quarrels over whose city it really is. Each ethnic name is a self-identifying name; each ethnicity sincerely believes that it uses the self-identifying name.

Consider the unhappy city of Bender: Is it Moldovan/Transnistrian/Russian? Does it self-identify as Tighina/Bender/Bendery? These are, at root, the same question, and we cannot resolve either form - neither can the UN and the EU. What we can do is ask a different and perhaps more useful question: what will our readers call it (especially those who don't already have a dog in this fight, but want to learn something)? That's answerable. It was predominantly Bender before 1991, and what little coverage it has had since descending into chaos has used Bender as much as anything else.

The Burma discussion dove into politics for several reasons; but the rival self-identifying names helped set it off. Once some people said "we have to use the slef-identifying name of the Myanmar Government" and others said "the Burmese exiles/Aung San Suu Chi/the real Burmese people use Burma", we were off to the races, with a fundamentally insoluble and deeply political question.

Similarly, Derry and Londonderry are both ethnic self-identifying names; in fact, both are self-identifying names for two entities, the City and the County that surrounds it. The two rival ethnic groups there have, on Misplaced Pages as in the real world, been able to compromise: each gets one; Derry and County Londonderry - and credit to the Irish of both colors; but the claim above that this was resolved through the preference of self-identifying names is nonsense.

Many places in Kosovo (including Kosovo) have rival self-identifications too:

  • The self-identification of the present inhabitants (mostly Albanian, but sometimes Serbs)
  • The self-identification of the refugees (mostly Serb, but sometimes Albanians)
  • The self-identification by the government of Kosovo
  • The self-identification by the government of Serbia (which still asserts it is sovereign over Kosovo).
  • The self-identification of generations past ("This was the core of the Serbian Empire ....You are tearing the heart out of Serbia!"

All of these self-identifications are cited now - and can battle each other for pages. All we can do is decide between them; and for that usage is a verifiable standard. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 12:38, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

The thing is that this: "some people said (real name 1) and others said (real name 2), we were off to the races" is a simple issue to solve: ignore it. It's not relevant to the encyclopedia any more then any other POV screed is. Ignore it and base our impartial decisions in these matters on policy and outside references, then suddenly there is no dispute (that really matters, at least). Sure those with strong feelings on the matter are obviously not going to be happy with that, but what could we possibly do about that? Knock over one of the 5 pillars?
I want to assure everyone that what I'm about to say is not personal, and is not actually directed at anyone's intelligence here. Heck, it's not even directed at any one participant in particular! This rambling, sometimes incoherent, wall-of-text filled debate is frankly silly. You guys are trying to "win" a debate of an article title as if the title of the article is going to affect the entire world. Chill out and quit trying to win, and let's actually discuss whatever the issue here is rationally. Changing the policy/guideline is not going to convince anyone when the movereq is reopened regardless, and it's not as though this document is going to be "locked down" after you are happy with it (whoever "you" may be), so this isn't at all productive.
V = I * R (talk to Ω) 14:07, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
Ignore it. That's what admins should do, and what I think admins generally did in these cases. It would be easier to get everyone else to ignore it if there weren't a guideline to quote that supported silly arguments; that's why several of us disputed parts of this to begin with; nothing to do with the article that's Xandar's hobby-horse. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:32, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
I'll give you this, that it's entirely possible that I'm conflating issues here. However, when at least 3/4 of the current talk page is filled with discussion relating to that topic... something is obviously wrong. The current approach doesn't seem to be making progress here, so I'm speaking up.
I don't even know what this conversation is about now... which sources to use? Is there ever a single answer to that question? Why are we even talking about added weight being given to primary sources anyway? Because some editors want to? What ever happened to WP:V/WP:OR/WP:RS?
V = I * R (talk to Ω) 15:02, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
The talk page since #Protected names is a fairly good summary of the issues, which is why I've been willing to engage again. The fundamental question is "What do we do, if anything, about self-identifying names when they are not the most common English usage"? There is only one small piece of text at issue not discussed, and it can have a section of its own. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:22, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Remaining disputed text

A distinction should be drawn between a self-identifying entity and an inanimate or non-human entity. An inanimate geographical feature such as a sea or mountain, or a non-human entity such as an animal, does not have a name for itself. Thus the English name Mount Everest is just as arbitrary as the local name, Qomolangma. The use of "Mount Everest" as the definitive term in Misplaced Pages is simply a matter of convenience, as the mountain is far more widely known by the English name than by its native Tibetan one. Similarly, the English name cobra for a type of snake is just as arbitrary as the Indonesian name "ular tedung", but the English name is used in the English Misplaced Pages because it is the standard name in the English language.
A city, country, people or person by contrast, is a self-identifying entity: it has a preferred name for itself. The city formerly called Danzig now calls itself Gdańsk; the man formerly known as Cassius Clay now calls himself Muhammad Ali.

I think the first and last sentences here can be improved; I'm not sure it comes to a dispute. I don't see the moral imperative in A distinction should be drawn and am not convinced there is consensus on it; I would be content with There is a distinction.

Both Gdańsk and Muhammad Ali are cases where the self-identifying name is common usage; thus they're not particularly helpful examples; and Gdańsk is discussed elsewhere in the guideline, more accurately. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:39, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

In all seriousness, my question is why is this in the guideline at all? The most glaring issue that I see is that it's overly prescriptive: "You will use this name!" You know what happens when most people read this? </ignored>, and then they move on (either that or they'll ineffectively try using it as a battering ram against their opposition). These documents should be descriptive. They should inform regarding the history of what has come before, and attempt to explain what is occurring now. Besides that... the basic idea behind all of it is contradictory to WP:OR. Good luck getting most admins to listen to that sort of argument!
V = I * R (talk to Ω) 16:16, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
Then you may also want to remove the first sentence of the next section;
Where self-identifying names are in use, they should be used within articles.
The rest of that section is largely harmless, and says that Misplaced Pages does not take any position on whether a self-identifying entity has any right to use a name; this encyclopedia merely notes the fact that they do use that name and other stuff which seems quite reasonable.
I have no objection to drastic surgery either. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:23, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
Agreed, on both points. The follow on sentence that you quoted there actually supports removing all of the preceding content anyway. One or the other of them has to go regardless, and I'll stick with the side supported by the 5 pillars.
V = I * R (talk to Ω) 16:32, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

This is the nub of the dispute. PManderson and Ohm's Law want to totally reverse the long-standing guidance on self-identifying names in this naming convention - and there is absolutely no consensus for that, and no good reason to do so. Unacceptable. Xandar 23:33, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Everyone here aside from you seems to have a clear idea that this is what should be changed. Simply saying that "there is absolutely no consensus for that" is no argument. We're basically saying the exact opposite (I guess...), so I'm not sure what you expect to happen here.
V = I * R (talk to Ω) 05:50, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
In fact, there are half a dozen more editors who have opposed this in this long discussion, five of them here; there is a long track record of naming discussion, which has generally not chosen to follow self-identifying names against usage (Schmucky's example of the Republic of China may be the only example, and that was driven by strong POV concerns on both sides, and a disambiguation issue. Xandar and his proxies are the minority who demand this language, and even the proxies don't bother to show up without Xandar as faction whip. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:31, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

PMANderson, stupid comments like I "am the only person saying X", when large numbers of editors have gone on record as opposing your plans to reverse this long-standing naming convention, simply display the childishness of your yah-boo-hiss style of argumentation. No matter how long you, Ohms Law, and other members of your Tag Team spend agreeing with each other on this page, that does not make any consensus for the radical, disruptive and totally uneccessary changes you propose. It is beginning to seem that you have no intention of discussing the issues in an adult manner, and any attempt to achieve serious discussion is merely seen by you as weakness - and an excuse for you to proceed further toward your maximalist goal. Well that is not going to happen. You either start getting serious on achieving a mutually acceptable solution, or we will have to insist on true community-wide discussion of your proposals - including all the editors of all articles liable to be affected or disrupted by your proposed changes to SI naming policy. Xandar 22:15, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

    • Where is everybody else? You have a certain number of proxy editors who will do what you demand when you call for them; when you don't call for them they don't bother. All of them are involved, sometimes to single-pointedness, in a single article which has a naming dispute. Everybody else seems ready to join a consensus that the use of self-identification, like official names, is to help decide between comparably common names, and to pick something when there is no common name. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:35, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
      • I've been away from the discussion for a few days and will need some time to catch up. I'm not sure where I stand on these changes; but I have to agree with Xandar, there are people who havent weighed in yet. Whether they are busy, uninterested, or as you say "proxy editors" who come when called; I dont think its acceptable to try to make these changes without consulting people with different views on this subject. I would appreciate if we would discuss Xandar's concerns without slandering him. And like I said, I need a little bit of time to catch up before I can form an opinion. --Kraftlos (Talk | Contrib) 01:39, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
This is a busy period for me and I don't have a lot of time for Misplaced Pages; it is not a lack of interest, but a prudent use of my time. I sure it makes you feel better to think that editors are not committed and that your opinion is the only one of value, Pm, but that is just an unfortunate personal problem that you need to deal with. Several editors have been making comments that represent my position and I am not needed, but you should realize that you are a minority where changing this policy is concerned. --Rider 01:57, 6 September 2009 (UTC)


It is a long holiday weekend here in the US... so some people may indeed be away from the conversation. On the other hand, it gives few others (like me) time to read the discussion and so we can give an opinion... I have to agree with PMA here... Since WP:NAME (a policy) clearly states a preference for our using the name that is most commonly used in sources, that has to be the first choice when settling disputes. We should go to other naming methods, such as self-identification, only if we can not determine what the most commonly used name actually is. Blueboar (talk) 02:18, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
Blueboar hits the home run! :) I'm still not completely sure how this all came about, and I honestly don't care that much but, that large parts of this document directly contradict it's "parent" is a fairly large issue. All of the bickering about who has consensus isn't helpful at all, especially since consensus can't be declared anyway, and now I see at least one person stooping to personal attacks. Anyway, we do have some time before the page protection comes off, so hopefully we can all be civil and start discussing this reasonably. I'm certainly willing to listen, but I don't see any way to reconcile the "self-identification" clauses with the overarching guidance to all naming conventions to primarily rely on the common name. That's so ingrained into Misplaced Pages culture now that attempting to change it is likely not to be effective regardless, so I'm not exactly worried. Still, this should be lined up with all of the other Naming conventions (and this rather pointless dispute should quit being a distraction).
V = I * R (talk to Ω) 04:38, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

No. There is no "contradiction" since this is a convention that lists EXCEPTIONS to the general advice of "using common names". This convention would be redundant and purposeless if all it did was repeat that advice! That advice is not set out as an iron rule anyway in the main policy, but with important modifies such as "Generally", and "except where other naming-conventions say otherwise." Self-identifying names are important, especially in the situations already described - primarily where a "most common" name is considered: inaccurate by the entity concerned, offensive to the entity concerned, has been recently superseded, or is in dispute. Changing the convention is more likely to increase edit-warring and disruption across Misplaced Pages in such circumstances than anything else. As far as few people contributing here, conversation over the past few days has tended to be so unproductive of compromise that I am not surprised so many have withdrawn for the moment. Xandar 23:09, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

In fact the position Ohms Law and PM advocate: that the general convention supersedes specific conventions was rejected on the policy page a few short months ago; see Misplaced Pages talk:Naming conventions/Archive 13#Strengthen COMMONNAME. Xandar 23:34, 6 September 2009 (UTC)
That is not what I support; in fact, that's User:Born2cycle who I mentioned above as Xandar's opposite number, who denies that there are any other considerations than common name; I saw that proposal and ignored it, because I don't agree with it. Similarly, Xandar proposes, when there is a naming conflict (and when else do we have naming discussions?) that we use nothing but "self-identifying names"; his proposal would be worse than Born's, because there is no clear test for a self-identifying name - the only excuse for his list of bad examples above. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:05, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
No. I haven't said that self-identifying names should be the only consideration, but as the long-standing convention says, for self-identifying entities this should be a major factor, and in fact a preferred factor (in line with the MOS) in forming a consensus about a disputed name. The convention in its standard form gives clear advice on determining the self-identifying name of an entity. On the over-all issue, many positions are entrenched, and we will probably need mediation if a consensus is to be achieved on any alterations to the long-standing guidance here. Xandar 23:33, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
Xander, I think we all agree that self-identification is a major factor. where we disagree is that we think it isn't the preferred factor. As I said above... the primary criteria should be commonality... and then, if we can not figure out a most common name, we look at other criteria. I would certainly place self-identification up near (or even at) the top of those other criteria, but the primary one is commonality. Blueboar (talk) 02:23, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
The problem is that in some cases self-identifying names need to trump the so-called "Common names", even when the Common name seems clear. I've raised what I see as the main ones:
  • where the clear "Common Name" is in some way objectionable to the entity concerned
  • where the clear "Common Name" is considered seriously inaccurate by the entity concerned
  • where the clear "Common Name" is out of date due to a verified change made by the entity concerned
In these situations (There may be others) the use of self-identifying names in place of a "commonly used name" provides the best solution - and one that is actually used by WIkipedia editors. And of course this is the reason that Naming Conventions provide exceptions from the General "rule". Xandar 23:23, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
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