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European Union

"The European Union has removed the IRA from their list of terrorist organisations". I have removed this incorrect information, as according to my research the IRA were never on it. The EU list was first adopted in December 2001. All lists up to March 2005;

• http://www.statewatch.org/news/2004/jun/2001-931-terr-lists.pdf
• http://www.statewatch.org/news/2002/jun/terB180602.pdf
• http://www.statewatch.org/news/2002/oct/terlist1.pdf
• http://www.statewatch.org/news/2002/dec/terr213dec02.pdf
• http://www.statewatch.org/news/2003/jul/terrlist2jun03.pdf
• http://www.statewatch.org/news/2003/sep/terrlistEUSept03.pdf
• http://www.statewatch.org/news/2003/dec/terrlist2.pdf
• http://www.statewatch.org/news/2004/apr/eu-terr-list2.pdf
• http://www.statewatch.org/news/2005/mar/terr-list1.pdf

If anyone has evidence that the IRA were on the EU's list this may go back, but according to my research they were not. O Fenian (talk) 18:22, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Which IRA would that be, IRA, CIRA, RIRA, INLA ? --De Unionist (talk) 21:10, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

O Fenian, the EU's website at says "The list includes ETA (Basque Fatherland and Liberty), the IRA (Irish Republican Army), GRAPO (the First of October Anti-Fascist Resistance Group), the terrorist wing of HAMAS, Palestinian Islamic Jihad and other revolutionary activist groups, as well as the names of individuals belonging to such groups." --Flexdream (talk) 13:28, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Not clear which IRA is being talked about, please provide an actual list that has them on. O Fenian (talk) 16:37, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Catholic and nationalist

Replacing the term 'Catholic' with 'Catholic and nationalist' throughout the article seems to me to be factually incorrect. The loyalists didn't just go after hardline political types, they engaged in explicit sectarian violence against Catholics- regardless of what their victims politics happened to be. The Squicks (talk) 01:39, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for bringing this to the talk page rather than simply reverting. I'm fully aware that loyalists targeted civilians purely because they were Catholic. If you re-read the sentences I changed, you'll see that I only added "and nationalist" in instances where it was necessary. I think it's important to note that not all nationalists were Catholic/not all Catholics were nationalists. ~Asarlaí 01:54, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Well, let's look at each change specially. You described the Northern Ireland riots of August 1969 as against 'Catholic and nationalist' people and not just against 'Catholics'. That to me seems factually inaccurate. The Squicks (talk) 02:15, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

A better wording would be that they were against Catholic homes as well as nationalist homes or something like that. The hooligans attacked both nationalist Catholics and non-nationalist Catholics alike. The Squicks (talk) 02:18, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Yes I'd be happy with that wording. Are there any other changes you disagree with? ~Asarlaí 02:28, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

I have some other thoughts. (I know this sounds like nitpicking but bear with me as I think we both have the best intentions in mind)

IRA had not been armed or organised to defend the nationalist and Catholic communit Plural, since the terms are not the same

The Provisionals, by contrast, advocated a robust armed defence of nationalists and Catholics in the north is clearer

in protest at their failure to defend nationalist and Catholic areas is clearer since even though areas are/were often the same thing with 'nationalist = catholic' there are/were individual blocks and neighboorhoods that were Catholic but not politically active. The Squicks (talk) 02:41, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

£100,000 was donated by the Irish government to "Defense Committees" in nationalist and Catholic areas is clearer

as being defenders of Irish nationalist and Catholic people against aggression is clearer

Governmental apparatus in Northern Ireland were biased against the nationalist and Catholic members of the community is clearer The Squicks (talk) 02:43, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Agreed. I'll start editing this into the article, if that's alright. ~Asarlaí 02:50, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Okay. I think that there's some other things that should probably be looked at later. The Squicks (talk) 02:52, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

The constant addition of "nationalist and Catholic" is appalling, please stop. O Fenian (talk) 08:25, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Why do you see it as "appalling"? Also, please do not revert changes without discussion. The Squicks (talk) 18:58, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

What on earth are you talking about? It is bold, revert, discuss. Superfopp was bold, he was correctly reverted, and he chose to keep making the same disputed edit. Kindly address your ire at the person repeatedly making the disputed changes. I consider people putting their own interpretation on what sources say appalling, capeesh? O Fenian (talk) 21:00, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

When I made the changes, I did so without using the talk page first, that was a mistake on my part. The Squicks reverted my edit, and rightly so. We discussed the changes here and came to an agreement. So what's the problem? ~Asarlaí 21:06, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

I was not aware you two had any right to come to a binding agreement when other editors have not commented, especially when you have made similar tendentious edits on this and similar articles and already been reverted by editors not involved in your little twosome. Could you tell us what the already cited sources say in the sentences you changed? O Fenian (talk) 21:09, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Please have another look at the sentences that were changed. None of them are directly sourced. ~Asarlaí 21:17, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

None of them? Are you sure? I do believe you're telling porkies there! Also first edit and first revert, or had you forgotten that too? O Fenian (talk) 21:20, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

That edit was made before the discussion between myself and The Squick (directly above). We don't intend to use that wording, we intend to use this wording. ~Asarlaí 21:27, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

And knowing your previous edit you made this edit without discussion. Please do not attempt to transfer the blame for your tendentious edit warring onto others. Would you like to answer my other questions? O Fenian (talk) 21:35, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

O Fenian, you continue referring to edits made before my agreement with The Squick. I acknowledge they weren't completely accurate, but they're irrelevant now. We intend to use this wording. What are your objections to this wording? ~Asarlaí 21:51, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Am I to take the lack of reply to mean you haven't got any objections? ~Asarlaí 16:59, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Any edits, such as that one, that are counter to Misplaced Pages policy will be reveted. O Fenian (talk) 17:04, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

What Misplaced Pages policy does it go against? ~Asarlaí 17:07, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Since you still haven't provided any arguments, I've changed the wording again. ~Asarlaí 01:55, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

I have, and so have others. Mine are Misplaced Pages policies, please read them before editing. O Fenian (talk) 02:09, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

No you have not. Explain your reasons here rather than simply stating "original research" or "unsourced claims". ~Asarlaí 02:28, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

It will be Protestant and Loyalist next, where does it end? --De Unionist (talk) 20:40, 20 June 2009 (UTC) To be totally correct, it should be Roman Catholic and Nationalist. --De Unionist (talk) 20:51, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Catholic and Nationalist are not the same thing it implies that they are one and the same this is not the fact no more than every Protestant is a Loyalist. BigDunc 20:42, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Exactly. We should make it clear that not all nationalists are Catholic, and not all unionists ate Protestant. Some of them are non-practising or simply don't follow a religion. ~Asarlaí 20:58, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Actually, quite a few Unionists are Roman Catholics as are a few Nationalists Protestants or other faith. --De Unionist (talk) 21:01, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Exactly, not all nationalists are Catholic and not all unionists are Protestant. ~Asarlaí 21:08, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

IMO, "Catholic" and "Protestant" is always wrong. The strife between the two communities had nothing to do with justification by faith alone or veneration of the Blessed Virgin; it was about adherence to the United Kingdom (unionism) or to a United Ireland (nationalism). The fact that the two communities were referred to at the time as "Catholic" and "Protestant" is not a reason to use those terms today. I believe they should be removed from the article altogether. Scolaire (talk) 15:06, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Not correct because you can be a protestant without being a Unionist or a Loyalist. You can also be a Roman Catholic without being a Nationalist or a Republican. You can also be a Nationalist or a Loyalist whilst being an agnostic or an atheist. The strife in Ireland is between Republicans and non Republicans. --De Unionist (talk) 16:17, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Scolaire, while I'd tend to agree with you there, I don't think the terms should be removed altogether. They could be used less though. During the conflict there was a number of attacks on people purely because they were believed to be Catholics / Protestants. ~Asarlaí 17:54, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

That may be relevant to other articles; I've checked this one and there is no instance where "Catholic" or "Protestant" is appropriate. Scolaire (talk) 18:29, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Are you sure? It's a matter of fact that many loyalists targeted people just for being Catholic, regardless of their politics. As for your statement "strife between the two communities had nothing to do with", I agree somewhat but that is a hasty generalization and an oversimplification. The spirituality does matter. After all, Ian Paisley called my spiritual leader "the anti-Christ". I could come up similar statements by lower-level loyalists about their fight against the 'enemies of the real Christians' and so on. The Squicks (talk) 18:46, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Again, I am talking about this article, and not Ian Paisley. Obviously, " favoured building up a political base among the working class, both Catholic and Protestant" or "Father Alec Reid, a Roman Catholic priest" is appropriate. Otherwise all I can see is phrases such as "to defend the Catholic community". That community was under threat, not because its members went to mass, but because they opposed the Unionist régime and aspired to a United Ireland. Or am I wrong? Scolaire (talk) 19:12, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

No, many of them were under threat just for being Catholic. For example, see Ulster_Volunteer_Force#History. The Squicks (talk) 19:53, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for the link. I read: "In its announcement on 21 May 1966, the UVF declared war on the Irish Republican Army" and "This circle of attack by the IRA...would be followed by counter-attack on the people the UVF saw as 'hosting' the IRA: Roman Catholic civilians" (my italics). I don't see any mention of spirituality, or of doctrinal differences. Nor have I ever read that victims were selected on the basis of frequency of church attendance or other evidence of devotion. AFAIK they were chosen simply because they lived in a "Catholic" (which actually means nationalist) area. To repeat myself, the fact that the UVF, the politicians and the media referred to those people as "Catholics" is not a reason for us to do so. The UVF article needs tidying up in that respect as much as this article does. Scolaire (talk) 08:54, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Let me put it another way: how many instances were there of loyalist attacks on Catholics who were known unionist supporters, or who were outspoken against republicans or civil rights activists? In such instances—and I don't know of any—it would be reasonable to assume that they were attacked for their religion; otherwise there must be the presumption that any attacks were on the basis of the equation "Catholics" = "IRA supporters" i.e. not religious but political. Scolaire (talk) 09:25, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Categorisation

Hi,

under 'Categorisation' it says "the IRA are referred to as terrorists by the Ulster Unionist Party, the Democratic Unionist Party, and the Progressive Unionist Party".

To me that implies that that Alliance Party and the SDLP did not.

I changed this to "the IRA are referred to as terrorists by the Ulster Unionist Party, the Democratic Unionist Party, the Progressive Unionist Party, the non-sectarian Alliance Party of Northern Ireland, and the nationalist Social Democratic and Labour Party, which parties all condemned all paramilitary violence" which I think is correct. However, this has been undone by people who disagree.

So I'd like to ask, did the Alliance Party and the SDLP refer to the IRA as terrorists?

seems clear to me for the Alliance Party. seems to put the SDLP view.

Whatever their position was, I think it should be stated, not implied. I think this is important for context. I couldn't have named all 3 Unionist parties, but someone thinks it necessary to name each one and say they referred to the IRA as terrorists, but not to say anything at all about the other main parties.

If I've got my facts wrong on the positions of the parties, then that just shows even more that the present article is deficient.

thanks

--Flexdream (talk) 13:19, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Those are primary sources for the views of political parties, or in fact for the views of the person writing. There is no evidence that as a party those views are held, and independent secondary sources would be needed to draw such a conclusion. O Fenian (talk) 16:38, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

You are saying that there is no evidence the Alliance Party considered the IRA a terrorist organisation, and that even if they said so (such as the news release I've quoted from their own website) you'd need someone else saying it before you'd be convinced? That's perverse.--Flexdream (talk) 19:45, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

The sources do not source the parties as a whole holding that view, only the people who wrote the articles. O Fenian (talk) 21:20, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

New discussion

"It is estimated that between 1969 and 1997, the IRA were responsible for the death or injury of over 20,000 men, woman and children. Over 14,000 of these being civilians." - text added. "It has also been estimated that the IRA injured 6,000 British Army, UDR and RUC and up to 14,000 civilians, during the Troubles." - original text. Anyone can see the emotive attempt at bias with "men, women and children", and the misleading combination of death and injury. Its addition currently violates Misplaced Pages:Lead also. O Fenian (talk) 21:20, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Not really. The IRA killed and injured men, women and children. It's a fact. What's the problem ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.133.101.139 (talk) 21:51, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Also, it doesn't violate Misplaced Pages:Lead is any way. The death and injury of over 20,000 men, women and children is an important part of the IRA story. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.133.101.139 (talk) 21:55, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

It is a biased and misleading presentation of an estimation. I welcome discussion here about how, if at all, and where this information should be added. O Fenian (talk) 22:14, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

This is a biased addition and combining the figures is misleading, and it's also a violation of WP:LEAD. BigDunc 22:16, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

How can a fact be biased? The IRA murdered or maimed over 20,000 people. This included men, women and children. It may be unpalatable to people with a republican viewpoint, however it is still a fact. So.... what is the problem ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.133.101.139 (talk) 22:18, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Maybe it's worth getting an editor who isn't sympathetic towards the IRA's aims and methods to look at this. I can't see how placing an important fact about the IRA on the IRA Wiki page is such a problem. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.133.101.139 (talk) 22:22, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree, its a misleading presentation of an estimation.--Vintagekits (talk) 08:37, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

I substituted "people" for the allegedly "emotive" "men, woman and children" in light of the concern expressed above. It may be useful also to include specific reference to those actually killed by PIRA as well as those injured. Mooretwin (talk) 09:08, 7 August 2009 (UTC) {{editprotected}}

 Not done Please formulate the exact change. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 13:49, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks DJ. Consensus is being developed below for replacement wording that settles the content dispute. There won't be any edits until that is accomplished. Nja 13:57, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

That's what you think, but Misplaced Pages is not a dictatorship! O Fenian (talk) 15:09, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Please remove the disputed addition made in this edit. The reasons for this are as follows:

• The addition is a violation of Misplaced Pages:Lead, as it introduces information that is not in this article.
• The addition contains weasel words leading to unattributed point of view. "It is estimated", estimated by who?
• The addition does not accurately reflect what the source says. The original text in another article read "Lost Lives therefore concludes that the Provisional IRA was responsible for a total of 1,781 deaths to date. It has also been estimated that the IRA injured 6,000 British Army, UDR and RUC and up to 14,000 civilians, during the Troubles". Note "up to 14,000 civilians", while this article says "over 14,000". Deaths + injuries may mean "over 14,000", but it may not.
• It is misleading to combine deaths and injuries in this way.

This IP editor has already been blocked twice for disruption on this article, and as their edits and the discussion above show they are not interested in adhering to policy, consensus building or resolving any dispute, and leaving this article protected will achieve nothing. O Fenian (talk) 09:04, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

I'm content for the edit to be made so as it reflects what the source says as noted above. Content also for the estimation to be attributed to Lost Lives. Not content for it to be removed from the lead. If the info isn't in the article, then it ought to go in, rather than be censored altogether. It is important, relevant and useful information. Mooretwin (talk) 09:12, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Good, so we can remove the disputed and incorrect addition until we have discussed how it goes into the article, which is what I said originally. But that never happened. O Fenian (talk) 09:25, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

No. Just edit the addition so that it corresponds to what the source says, and attribute it. As I said it above, it should not be removed as it is important, relevant and useful. Mooretwin (talk) 09:31, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Exact quote from the source needed. O Fenian (talk) 09:35, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

No there isn't. I see nothing wrong with the text you noted above: just attribute it. Mooretwin (talk) 10:00, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

You cannot attribute it until you know what the source says. So provide an exact quote from the source. O Fenian (talk) 10:03, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Do you not trust how the source has been represented in the article which you quoted? Mooretwin (talk) 10:11, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

The estimate is not directly attributed to anyone in the other article. You cannot directly attribute the estimate unless you know its provenance, therefore a quote from the source is needed to determine it. O Fenian (talk) 10:14, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

I see what you mean. I'll be able to look up the source later, but I suggest that in the meantime we work on a text on the assumption that Lost Lives will ultimately provide the source. If not, we can look at it again. Mooretwin (talk) 10:27, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Actually, I don't see what you mean. The estimates are directly attributable: the deaths to McKittrick et al and the injuries to Brendan O'Brien. Mooretwin (talk) 11:03, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

What I meant was was it their estimate, or the estimate of someone else they were quoting. But that is largely academic now, since the figures are from 1986. O Fenian (talk) 15:13, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

• Please collaboratively draft a proposal for the text you wish to replace. Once the replacement text is agreed then this request can be honoured. Cheers, Nja 09:39, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Then why not remove the unacceptable text for now? I said I was happy to discuss a proposed version at 22:14 last night. O Fenian (talk) 09:42, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

The sooner we agree to the edited text, the sooner the "unacceptable" text will be removed. Mooretwin (talk) 10:00, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

No. We should not leave incorrect information in the article, it should be removed. O Fenian (talk) 10:03, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

It only needs to be rephrased. The only possible incorrect bit is where it says "over" - that can be changed to "up to" to reflect the source as you have suggested. Mooretwin (talk) 10:11, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

There are various issues to be resolved, none of which are resolved. Therefore it should be removed until they are, as it is incorrect and misleading. O Fenian (talk) 10:14, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

See my response above. Let's work on something and hopefully I'll have the source later today. Mooretwin (talk) 10:27, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Apologies, I had not realised the second part was sourced to O'Brien, as I could have told you what that said. The figures are from 1986, therefore partial figures are no use for the lead. O Fenian (talk) 15:09, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

• No, the article is protected as there's a dispute and reverting to your version would defeat the entire purpose of page protection. Please stop moaning about the text currently there and show me how it can be fixed so that this issue is resolved. One editor seems willing, so get stuck in with them and sort it please, as there won't be any edits until consensus is reached. Nja 11:42, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Suggested new text

• McKittrick et al estimated in 1999 that the Provisional IRA was responsible for a total of 1,781 deaths to date and O'Brien has estimated that the IRA injured 6,000 British Army, UDR and RUC and up to 14,000 civilians, during the Troubles.

Mooretwin (talk) 10:27, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

No, O'Brien's figures are from 1986 O Fenian (talk) 15:09, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

In that case the "over 14,000" reference was almost certainly correct. Anyway - easily fixed:

• • McKittrick et al estimated in 1999 that the Provisional IRA was responsible for a total of 1,781 deaths to date and O'Brien has estimated that by 1986 the IRA had injured 6,000 British Army, UDR and RUC and up to 14,000 civilians, during the Troubles.

Mooretwin (talk) 15:18, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

No. Find complete figures, anything else is pointless. O Fenian (talk) 15:26, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

That isn't how things work. If something is sourced and is presented correctly and given appropriate weight it can be included in the article. Nja 15:59, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Nice of you to involve yourself in the dispute with that post, I assume you are familiar with WP:INVOLVED. I feel like I'm speaking a different language here. What I said is that complete figures are needed, not partial figures. You know, as we're dealing about their campaign as a whole, not just part of it. So partial figures are no use, get it? O Fenian (talk) 16:07, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Not pointless at all. On the contrary, the figures tell the reader that mid-way through the Troubles, the PIRA had injured up to 14,000 people. Just because we don't know how many people they went on to injure during the rest of the Troubles doesn't seem like a good reason to censor the information. WP is here to provide information, not withhold it. Mooretwin (talk) 16:04, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Which means it would belong in the part that deals with action up to that point. And as the lead is dealing with the article and campaign as a whole, it makes sense for a whole figure to be included not a partial one. So why don't you run along and find the complete figures? O Fenian (talk) 16:07, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

This is just to reiterate that my proposal above remains. Mooretwin (talk) 22:53, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Edit request

This edit request is disputed

• (disputed by the "admin" who protected the page on an inaccurate version, so much for impartiality! O Fenian (talk) 16:12, 7 August 2009 (UTC))

It is requested that an edit be made to the semi-protected article at Provisional Irish Republican Army. (edit · history · last · links · protection log) This template must be followed by a complete and specific description of the request, that is, specify what text should be removed and a verbatim copy of the text that should replace it. "Please change X" is not acceptable and will be rejected; the request must be of the form "please change X to Y". The edit may be made by any autoconfirmed user. Remember to change the |answered=no parameter to "yes" when the request has been accepted, rejected or on hold awaiting user input. This is so that inactive or completed requests don't needlessly fill up the edit requests category. You may also wish to use the {{ESp}} template in the response. To request that a page be protected or unprotected, make a protection request.

See below for reason for dispute

Since the last one was ignored without looking at who actually made the request and what it was. Please remove the disputed addition made in this edit. The reasons for this are as follows:

• The addition is a violation of Misplaced Pages:Lead, as it introduces information that is not in this article.
• The addition contains weasel words leading to unattributed point of view. "It is estimated", estimated by who?
• The addition does not accurately reflect what the source says. The original text in another article read "Lost Lives therefore concludes that the Provisional IRA was responsible for a total of 1,781 deaths to date. It has also been estimated that the IRA injured 6,000 British Army, UDR and RUC and up to 14,000 civilians, during the Troubles". Note "up to 14,000 civilians", while this article says "over 14,000". Deaths + injuries may mean "over 14,000", but it may not.
• It is misleading to combine deaths and injuries in this way.
• Last but not least, in fact the most important reason - The figures in the article which this addition was taken from are wrong. The figures referred to in O'Brien (the source for the original second sentence) are from 1986, while The Troubles were still ongoing. Therefore the statement is totally and utterly wrong. The reader is being done a disservice if incorrect information is being presented in this way, and it makes no sense to talk about "total" figures in the lead when they are nothing of the sort.

Thank you. O Fenian (talk) 15:09, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

•  Not done Your request is declined for the same reasons it was by another admin earlier, and further you are completely ignoring my attempts to resolve this dispute. Simply saying 'no, from 1986' isn't really being active in reaching a consensus. Again, this article is protected due to the content dispute and reversion to your preferred edit defeats the purpose. You need to start actively trying to come to a result. A solution may be to state the date of those figures in the sentence, or find better figures, etc. Nja 15:17, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Get a fucking grip. If you had read my replies (all of them), you would have seen my replies were more substantial than just that brief reply to that point. If you had read the request in full, in particular the NEW point (conveniently with bold next to it), you would actually understand what has changed since earlier and why this edit will be made. O Fenian (talk) 15:20, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Please don't edit war on a talk page. That is beyond pointless. You were edit warring on the article, and now you are here. Nja 15:33, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

What the fuck? The earlier request was declined because he thought Mooretwin's comments were the edit request. How else can you explain "Please formulate the exact change" when my request made the exact change clear, it said which edit to revert. Not only that, but his reply is under Mooretwin's post not mine! Now you are saying it was declined for the same reason, which also ignores that the request is different in one substantial yet very important point. Did you read the request in full? Yes/No. Assuming you did, what do you actually think of the last point? O Fenian (talk) 15:37, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Nja247, you are a joke. O Fenian is not edit warring and has made a reasonable request.--Vintagekits (talk) 15:42, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks mate, I enjoy a good tag team of insults. Essentially there's no consensus for his request, and the box clearly says only those requests with consensus will be considered. So how's that reasonable? Shall I send in another admin to decline, or will you both start being part of the solution rather than the problem? Nja 15:56, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

It is perfectly reasonable to reinstate the request if the admin has not even bothered to read it. Unless this factual accuracy is dealt with soon this will be dealt with elsewhere, there is no reason for this article to remain inaccurate. O Fenian (talk) 15:44, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Yes I read the entire bloody page mate. Do you really think I've just stumbled upon this article today and decided to protect it so as to lock you out? Or that I purposefully declined your request again just because I felt like it? Well, no. I cannot understand why you're even arguing with me as all I've been saying to you is that you need to work with others to come to a compromise so that the article can be unprotected and the dispute resolved. For hopefully the last time, I want to note that your request is not going to get anywhere. It doesn't have consensus. Read the box, it says specifically only requests that have consensus will be considered. So let's stop this back and forth repetition and actually work to seek that consensus that is required for your request to be considered, and for this page to be unprotected.

Thus you can start to help, or you can continue not to and end up being referred elsewhere for disruption. I hope you decide to choose the former by giving some actual feedback and suggesting compromises/rewording for the draft given above. Nja 15:56, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

So, to sum up. You cannot answer most of my questions, because you have realised that you are totally wrong. The only disruption round here is being caused by your incompetence, it is you who will come out of this worse mark my words. Now will someone please remove the inaccurate information from the lead, or will some jobsworth now say consensus is needed to remove inaccurate information? O Fenian (talk) 16:02, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

No, essentially you have no consensus (as you haven't tried to resolve the dispute) thus I cannot understand why you're seeking an protected edit request which requires consensus. You can't just ask for the article to edited to your liking and bypass the whole working with others thing. I haven't any time for this repetition, so for the last time please start to help resolve the dispute with constructive input and/or compromised wording, etc. Also it's sourced, and just because you don't agree with it doesn't mean it's inaccurate. Your points above have some validity, thus figure out how to get your points in whilst reconciling them with what's already there. Finally, don't insult me as I'm doing the best I can and you're the one who's being completely un-cooperative. Nja 16:14, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

So rather than revert to the pre-edit war version (which has consensus) you're prepared to maintain an inaccurate version, despite it being pointed out that it's inaccurate, are you even familiar with the protection policy? O Fenian (talk) 16:17, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

• Get consensus for any change. Period. If you want to revert to a pre-edit war version, post the diff to this page and ask the various parties in the edit war if they will agree to revert to that version while discussion is ongoing. Have them sign off on the revert. Then post the edit request template. Thatcher 16:23, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

You don’t get consensus from a POV edit warrior! Period!! The inaccuracies in the Lead have been made clear to all concerned, so what is the problem? Which is worse, the IP edit warrior, the Admin who has not got a clue on policy, or the Admin having the fact that they have not got a clue pointed on policy out to them? Round one to the IP edit warrior, and who is that down too. --Domer48_'fenian' 17:33, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Proposal for the removal of incorrect information while the page is protected

Revert to this version to be precise (note, people proposing the article should willingly contain inaccurate information for the next two weeks should be ignored, as their argument holds no weight)

For

1. O Fenian (talk) 16:28, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
2. Moronic use of admin tools - ney shock der den!--Vintagekits (talk) 17:07, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
3. Lets not rewards edit warring. --Domer48_'fenian' 17:17, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
4. IMO pointless putting my name here admin has made up their mind that the proposer is out to disrupt. BigDunc 18:55, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Against not that it matters it seems

1. locked pages stay locked at whatever they ended up on else the admin would have had to take a side before they locked a page and then locked it at a particular version and that would certainly be showing bias. Sometimes you are lucky, sometimes not so you live with it and identify the correct wording that the admins feel would have a broad support. Given that the article claims that this group have been classified as a proscribed terrorist group in the United Kingdom and as an illegal organisation in the Republic of Ireland then it is very relevant to the LEDE to show what this means in human terms. It would be an emotional bias if they mentioned animals killed but I think we can live with just listing a round figure of humans injured and killed with further detail on exact body-counts in the main text. Ttiotsw (talk) 17:04, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

"locked pages stay locked at whatever they ended up" - not true, read the protection policy. It says "Since protecting the most current version sometimes rewards edit warring by establishing a contentious revision, administrators may also revert to an old version of the page predating the edit war if such a clear point exists." Therefore there is no reason to maintain an incorrect version is there? O Fenian (talk) 17:12, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

I also said "identify the correct wording that the admins feel would have a broad support". I think the current version supports the lede. It makes little sense having a group that has been classified as terrorist/illegal by all the authorities involved without us referring to a summary of the reason why they have been proscribed, which for terrorism etc, is usually either a list of bombings or if it is easier summary of kills and injuries. Given the complaint just seems to be a subtle difference in some numbers it seems fine for the next two weeks. If the reference is unreliable then show how it is wrong. Ttiotsw (talk) 17:23, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

So you are in favour of the article underestimating the number of people injured by using 1986 figures that exclude certain areas? O Fenian (talk) 17:25, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Mate, what I've been saying is we can edit the article promptly to include that the figures are only up to 1986 and exclude certain areas if you can come up with wording that is agreeable to the other party in dispute. We want the article to be clear, and the sooner we have agreed wording the sooner that can happen. Nja 17:32, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Then put it where it belongs, ie at the start of this section maybe, and remove it from this incorrect section. Nobody is saying the information shouldn't be in the article somewhere, but why should the reader be misled while we are discussing where? O Fenian (talk) 17:40, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Come up with actual wording and where you'd put it and ask the other editor on their talk page to look at it. If it's agreed then we're done here and can move on. Nja 17:43, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Mooretwin will disagree with anything I propose, he always does. So we will just be stuck here, and the reader suffers. Hurray for Misplaced Pages! O Fenian (talk) 17:47, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

It's worth a go. I'd really like to see what you come up with. I can't comment on any other issues this article may have, but on this one I'll do my best to get it sorted. Do take a stab at it. Nja 17:51, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

The two issues are separate anyway. The first issue is whether a factually inaccurate statement should be removed from the lead, the second issue is the wording of a new statement and where it should go in the article. One can be solved without solving the other, so how about improving the encyclopedia for our readers someone? O Fenian (talk) 17:56, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

I may not entirely agree with your assessment of the issues, however if you come up with new wording and it's agreed it's not to be in the lead then it will be removed. Thus the quicker it's sorted the quicker both issues can be resolved. Please do provide your draft as soon as practicable, as I'd like to see it. Nja 18:00, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

I'll come up with a new wording once the reader is no longer misled, and not before. O Fenian (talk) 18:09, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Then you truly do not care about having this 'misleading' info removed, as if you did you would work to sorting the dispute so that the article could be unprotected to the new agreed version promptly. Nja 18:15, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Incorrect. I know that as long as incorrect information remains in the article and will not be removed until there is agreement, then Mooretwin will not agree. Until you take away his power to stall by refusing to agree, nothing will happen. So we can sit here and twiddle our thumbs for the next ten years, or the issue can be forced by removing the incorrect information? And to think, doing so would benefit the encyclopedia by not misleading the reader too! O Fenian (talk)

Well then we wait, as from what I've witnessed today he's made two efforts and you none. Nja 18:29, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

I have warned you before about distorting facts, I suggest you stop with the untrue comments. O Fenian (talk) 18:31, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

One, two. Or are you suggesting, hilariously, that I should propose a wording when I am unaware of what the as-yet-unseen source says? O Fenian (talk) 18:38, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

As noted at ANI, go by the figures that are available. Don't make this into more than it really is please. Nja 18:50, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Your the one doing that! Now there is a proposal above! See no reason to waste time with the likes of you. --Domer48_'fenian' 19:37, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

As noted at ANI, and in every reliable source going, the IRA's campaign varied in intensity. The 1970s, early 1970s in particular, were far more violent and far more deaths and injuries were caused. Therefore to include an incomplete figure in the lead suggests to the reader that the number of injuries would be similar for the years not listed. There is no possible argument to counter that, it is misleading period. Unless that is, the figure is included at the relevant point in the article and not in the lead. Which is what's been said for hours now, but it is irrelevant to the information being removed from the lead. It is now beyond a joke that having been presented with evidence that the article is incorrect, that nobody is actually prepared to remove the offending information, hiding behind a "get consensus for it" argument. So I ask you, where was the consensus for the information to be added in the first place?! O Fenian (talk) 19:41, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

So in conclusion are the estimates we have for death or injury at 20,000 people of which "over" 14,000 of these being civilians, is that under or overestimated ? If OBrien is a poor source then why not use Sinn fein who says "3,000 people have been killed, and 30,000 injured". Now it could be that they are talking these figures up or down, either way we are close enough for the time being and I think we're in the right ball park. Obviously some think that I "should be ignored, as their argument holds no weight". I don't care. Ttiotsw (talk) 21:12, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Unless you are implying O'Brien is a poor source due to his figures being from 1986, I do not see where anyone has said he is a poor source. The rest of your post is pointless. The SF figures are the total figures killed or injured by everyone (and can be better sourced elswhere), what are required are the total figure injured by the IRA. So yes your argument, or the one you have just presented, holds no weight. The current question is not whether complete accurate or estimated figures should be included in the lead, but whether the current incorrect and misleading figures should be removed. O Fenian (talk) 21:19, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

I said "If OBrien is a poor source" (it was a question not a claim) and you seem to imply he is an OK source thus, does O'Brien say those or similar figures ? If Yes and as we do not state the actual year in the lead that the figures apply for (only a more encompassing range of 1969 and 1997) then no Misplaced Pages reader will ever do the maths in their head to extrapolate whatever trend could be construed. If No then do we over or under estimate the figures OBrien claims ?. If we overestimate then that is wrong, but if we underestimate then we can keep the word "over" in place. Ttiotsw (talk) 21:33, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

No, he is reporting the figures up to 1986 only. There seems to be some confusion here. The question is not "Should details about the total injured by the IRA be included in the lead?". The question is "Should the current incorrect and misleading information be removed?". Answering "yes" to the second does not mean answering "no" to the first. It should not be this difficult to get incorrect information that has only just been added to the article removed! O Fenian (talk) 21:38, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Then we underestimate, which is really all that we need to care about. There are millions of articles in Misplaced Pages all at various stages of development and at various levels of protection. Why the rush ? The admins for this edit war have correctly locked the article and another admin has supported this and suggested how to change the text (e.g. getting sign-off on revert). I would have thought that the next step would have been to do that rather than attacking the admins and the other editors pre-emptively. I suspect that the option of agreeing to an amicable revert has expired simply through sheer poor judgement by some so therefore the alternative is to track down the actual 1969 and 1997 figures. If the actual figures are at odds with the current edits then the lead should change. In other words though, as an unattached and new editor to this article I'm going to support some death and injury figures in the lead as I think they are germane to the classification, and the effectiveness, of the subject (FWIW my route to this article was I created the stub article of List of encyclicals of Pope Pius VI and so wandered to other Papal Bulls to see how to fill the few English language examples out then I noticed Laudabiliter as the Papal bull of the only English Pope and from looking at how the editors handled editing I noticed this fine article. As an aside I too think it would be the misleading to combine death and injury though technically "casualties" include both dead and injured though I would prefer if we broke the figures out. Ttiotsw (talk) 22:23, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

I'll go over to the Holocaust article and say an estimated 20 people died then ok? After all, underestimates don't matter? O Fenian (talk) 22:27, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Hyperbole never is a very good argument because though it is never meant to be taken seriously, it does show you are too emotionally attached to the subject to be objective. If you can find a reliable source that says that then you could try though I would doubt you could find one that said 20 persons for those events. Even the Holocaust deniers place the numbers in the many thousands. Here though we have a reliable source that says the numbers that we use so I don't think you are arguing the numbers are wrong but you are arguing that the time frame we quote is imprecise. That's not really that much of a problem I think.

As I mentioned the opportunity to remove all mention of casualties in the lead was lost for whatever reason and the consensus that is developing is to include the figures for the casualties (ideally broken out into deaths and injuries) in the lead. I do agree that we do not needs to say "man, women and children" unless we had a clear breakdown by sex and age. I think find the casualty lists that cover the timeframes first. Ttiotsw (talk) 09:30, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Stop with the dramatics. I'd hate to make the protection indefinite, but that is a possibility if you will not work with others. It's seems to have been agreed that the text should be inline with the source, ie it should state that the figures are up to 1986, excluded certain areas, and aren't complete. It's time to get a draft agreed, along with where to stick it in the article and move on. There's nothing more I can do, it's your choice. Message me or another admin when you actually have something that is a product of consensus so we can edit the article or unprotect it so you lot can do it yourselves. Nja 08:09, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Stop with the dramatics! Your the one that had your spurious report rejected! You were asked "to retract your claim that the information is sourced," and you refused! Nobody is saying the information shouldn't be in the article but why should the reader be misled while we are discussing it. You are just being pig headed its as simple as that! In your spurious report you pointed to a post by O Fenian and said "This edit implies this dispute could go on forever without some intervention" claiming that this was disruptive? You come along above and say you'll make the "protection indefinite" and will leave misleading information in the Lead, untill your happy with the wording! Would you ever cop onto yourself! Stop with the dramatics, and stop disrupting this discussion to make a point! --Domer48_'fenian' 08:50, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Indeed. It is now clear exactly who is preventing this dispute being resolved, the editor who threatens the page will remain incorrect indefinitely because he says so! O Fenian (talk) 09:16, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

I expect WP:CIVIL apples here. The ANI failed because the closing admin says it is a content dispute, which it is. WP:DR clearly shows the route you would need to take. I question that the average reader would be mislead by the lead other than the numbers we quote are perhaps an underestimate. If the reader was using these numbers for a purpose then they should verify them through checking sources before using them. Misplaced Pages works well where it provides the sources for the claims even if the nuance of the text used has an non-neutral POV - the text can still be useful to our readers. Ttiotsw (talk) 09:30, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Getting down to business

A few friendly words, a gesture of good faith, and serious stuff.

• Belfast, 1890s
• Before restoration
• After restoration

Been asked to weigh in as somebody with experience in DR and a totally clean slate on Irish nationalism disputes. So started off by spending several hours restoring a historic street scene of Belfast, chewing on this discussion at this page while getting it ready for featured picture candidacy. Found a possible copyright violation on the article during review; tagged it as a possibly unfree file.

Down to business. The wrong version usually gets protected during an edit war; see The Wrong Version. Here's the disputed text:

It is estimated that between 1969 and 1997, the IRA was responsible for the death or injury of over 20,000 people: over 14,000 of these being civilians.

Suggesting the editors here seek formal mediation to resolve the matter. A few points to consider:

• Should the casualties section be summarized in the lead? If so, what would a brief and neutral casualties statement include?
• Should this material (or something along these lines) move down into the body of the article and be covered in more depth? Possibly with a greater range of sources?
• In terms of casualties for this conflict, how widely to reputable sources vary?

As a reminder, this article is under general sanctions. Although the issue is a content dispute, recent conduct at this page looks problematic. Please refrain from name calling, vulgar terms, and Godwin's Law violations. Best wishes working this out. Durova 03:18, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Why not word it as:

It is estimated that between 1969 and 1997, the IRA was responsible for the death of SOME NUMBER and injury of SOME OTHER NUMBER: with around SOME THIRD NUMBER of these being civilians.

Another option would be to include ranges, if ranges are available from different sources.

It is estimated that between 1969 and 1997, the IRA was responsible for the injury of XX,XXX-XX,XXX people (with XX,XXX-XX,XXX of those being civilians) as well as XXX deaths.

A third option would be to remove the disputed sentence entirely. There is a Casualties section in the article. Honestly as far as the lead is concerned, the most important information is that there was a military campaign from 1969-1997.

Lot 49a 16:16, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Well, one formula that's worked in other articles for disputed figures is for the editors to agree upon which sources are suitable enough to cite, and then state "Estimates range from (low figure with citation) to (high figure with citation)." Or if citing only one source, "According to (So-and-So), the casualties were (numbers) as of (date range of So-and-So's study)." Although cited estimates across different Misplaced Pages articles vary by greater than an order of magnitude. So for a brief and neutral lead it might be more effective to note in a general sense to note that casualties were substantial. Then within the section discuss the differing figures, methodologies, and related controversies in greater depth. Not certain whether this path would be feasible or acceptable, just a few suggestions from a very distant perspective. It's the sort of issue that could mediate well. Durova 00:52, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Quite apart from the POV aspect, "death or injury of over 20,000 people" is unencyclopaedic. Does it mean one death plus 19,999 injuries, 10,000 plus 10,000 or 19,999 plus one? I would query whether the information is needed in the lead at all - the version without it looks fine to me. There is one option, however, that doesn't seem to have been considered: include the figure for deaths and not the one for injuries. Since they come from different sources covering different timescales they are certainly not interdependent, and I personally don't think that they are equally of interest from the point of view of inclusion in the lead. Scolaire (talk) 06:44, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Hello? There is a proposal to replace the existing text with:

• • McKittrick et al estimated in 1999 that the Provisional IRA was responsible for a total of 1,781 deaths to date and O'Brien has estimated that by 1986 the IRA had injured 6,000 British Army, UDR and RUC and up to 14,000 civilians, during the Troubles.

The number of people injured (as well as killed) by a paramilitary organisation is certainly of interest and relevance, as it gives an interesting and useful understanding of the organisation's impact on society. Mooretwin (talk) 08:10, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Leaving aside that the lead for the article is getting pretty long and I'd support cutting it down more in general, that sentence seems fine to me. I gather that there isn't consensus about the sentence? Lot 49a 15:49, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Unsupported by the source in every possible way. O'Brien does not support the assertion that "up to 14,000" were injured by the IRA. Neither is the 14,000 (or the 6,000) inclusive of all areas in which the IRA operated, and neither is it inclusive of all types of IRA attack. O Fenian (talk) 17:13, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Is there any version of the sentence that you can imagine being acceptable for the opening lead section of the article? Or is your position firmly that the lead section shouldn't discuss casualties at all? Lot 49a 17:21, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

I do not see how the removal of information that is incorrect now prevents the matter from being discussed further, or correct information being added at a future point in time. O Fenian (talk) 19:35, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Hello? There is also a proposal to replace the existing text with:

• • McKittrick et al estimated in 1999 that the Provisional IRA was responsible for a total of 1,781 deaths to date and O'Brien has estimated that by 1986 the IRA had injured 6,000 British Army, UDR and RUC and up to 14,000 civilians, during the Troubles.

I don't like it, it's unnecessary, but it's better than the misleading statement that's there. The proposal above is worthy of discussion for inclusion in the "Casualties" section, but it's totally inappropriate for the lead. For one thing it's way to long, for another it's only there to hammer home a point. Mooretwin says, "it gives an interesting and useful understanding of the organisation's impact on society." What he means is, "it is necessary to show what evil men these were." I don't agree that it is necessary. Scolaire (talk) 06:17, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

I would think that anyone visiting this page would be interested is knowing how many people the IRA killed or injured. After all they didn't achive much else of note between 1969 and 2001 - cetainly not a united Ireland. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.133.101.139 (talk) 06:34, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

I would question whether the above post should even be left. It is obviously intended to be disruptive. Scolaire (talk) 06:37, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

We're not here to censor people, so long as it's about the article and doesn't personally attack a named editor. Anyhow, is it agreed that the material isn't best suited for the lead then? If so can we see some agreement on a suitable draft to be included elsewhere? Cheers, Nja 07:25, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

It's agreed that the information is misleading and should be removed. Removing misleading information which had no consensus in the first place will not prevent discussion. --Domer48_'fenian' 08:03, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

The goal is to get an agreed draft along with its placement done as soon as possible. Note the issue also affects the fully protected Provisional_IRA_campaign_1969–1997 article. I will not be commenting again on the request to make an protected edit. If this cannot be done here the suggested next step is Mediation. Nja 08:27, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Per Domer, I'd like to see agreement on changing or removing the wording in the lead while the article is protected. Then we can get down to discussing long-term changes. BTW the information is already included in the article. That's not primarily what's in dispute here. Scolaire (talk) 08:31, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

See my countless points raised on this, along with Durova's first post. Nja 08:36, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Okay, I've seen them, thank you. What I'm not clear about is why it's wrong for me to suggest to Mooretwin and O Fenian that they agree on a compromise edit to be made to the protected version while the discussion continues. Scolaire (talk) 08:50, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

If that was what the original request would have been, then it would have been fine. There's nothing preventing both sides from coming to a compromise and say 'we agree to remove the disputed text in the lead whilst discussion on its wording and placement takes place'. If that were to happen I'd delete the disputed bit immediately. Or, whilst in discussion about that to agree to the new wording and placement at the same time so that all issues could be sorted in one go. Nja 09:04, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Then my suggestion stands. Scolaire (talk) 09:08, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

The sentence should be replaced with the proposed wording mentioned above which splits injuries / deaths so it can not be considered misleading. The number of people this group killed and wounded is vital information which clearly belongs in the introduction. BritishWatcher (talk) 09:04, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

BritishWatcher, I'm afraid the proposed wording can be and is considered misleading. Reading the casualties section, estimated civilian deaths account for 600-650 out of 1800 total deaths, or 35%; estimated civilian injuries before 1986 account for 14000 out of 20000, or 70%. Guess which statistic appears in the lead? Is that NPOV? No, it's not. Also, per my comments above, you haven't shown how the information is "vital" or why it "clearly" belongs in the intro. Scolaire (talk) 09:12, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Im not defending the figures used, all im saying is it is vital that information on the numbers killed / wounded by this group appears in the introduction. I wouldnt have a problem with it saying killed between "*** and ***" and wounded between "***** and *****" but that is rather important information which should be available in the introduction. So just removing the current sentence, wont solve the problem, it should be replaced with agreed new wording presented in a balanced way but stating the clear facts. The introduction is meant to sum up the article, to not include any information on numbers killed / wounded would clearly be biased. BritishWatcher (talk) 09:19, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

1. And I'm not disputing the figures, I'm talking about how they are presented in the wording that you support. 2. There's that word "clearly" again. Not to include casualty figures doesn't bias the intro in any way, although you might think it makes it deficient. I would agree with you that working on an agreed wording for the lead is what we should be doing, but it needs to based on something better than what's currently proposed. Scolaire (talk) 09:26, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

So how would you want the sentence explaining how many this terrorist group has killed/wounded worded? I think to leave out such information is biased and its certainly doesnt help the reader who may find such information rather useful. BritishWatcher (talk) 09:37, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Again, where is the bias? Which point of view does it bias the reader towards and how? I will ofer a proposal for the wording in the lead, but not off the top of my head. The issue won't be resolved in the next few minutes anyway. Scolaire (talk) 09:43, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

You say you the proposed wording can be and is considered misleading, yet fail to explain how, other than by fallacious reasoning that argues the proportion of civilians injured by PIRA must be the same as the proportion killed by PIRA. What have you to back up this strange claim? The reliable source provides figures for injuries up to 1986 and there is no good reason to doubt them. To claim that the source is POV is also without foundation. PIRA-inflicted injuries, as well as PIRA-inflicted deaths should be recorded in the lead. PIRA was, after all, a paramilitary organisation whose raison d'etre was to use force to achieve its aims. How can deaths and injuries not be relevant enough for the lead? Mooretwin (talk) 09:49, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

My "fallacious" reasoning argues that the wording as proposed suggests that the IRA was responbsible for 70% of all casualties, deaths as well as injuries. It is calculated to paint the IRA in the poorest possible light, which is POV by definition. I never claimed that any source was POV; what I said was that the way the figures were presented in your proposal was POV. That the IRA was "a paramilitary organisation whose raison d'etre was to use force to achieve its aims" seems to me the weakest possible argument for including casualty figures in the lead. Scolaire (talk) 10:00, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

And how does the proposed wording suggest that PIRA was responbsible for 70% of all casualties, deaths as well as injuries? And what is the basis for your claim that O'Brien calculated the figure "to paint the IRA in the poorest possible light"? And why do you think that relating injury figures to the violent methods of the subject of the article is "the weakest possible argument for including casualty figures in the lead"? It seems like a rather obvious reason to me. Mooretwin (talk) 10:06, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

I have nothing to say about O'Brien and his figures. The way you use them is calculated to paint the IRA in the poorest possible light, which is POV by definition. Scolaire (talk) 10:15, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

And what is the basis for this allegation? Unless you can provide reasoning for the allegation, I suggest that you withdraw it. Please assume good faith. I have no interest in paiting anyone "in the poorest possible light", and every interest in presenting relevant facts objectively. That is why I have proposed the wording which (a) makes clear that the estimate is attributed, and (b) makes clear that the estimate relates only up to 1986. If more up-to-date information is available, kindly post it. Unfortunately, however, the only information we have is O'Brien. I'll also ask again: how does the proposed wording suggest that PIRA was responbsible for 70% of all casualties, deaths as well as injuries? And why do you think that relating injury figures to the violent methods of the subject of the article is "the weakest possible argument for including casualty figures in the lead"? Mooretwin (talk) 10:23, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Scolaire, please have the courtesy to respond to other editors. You have made an allegation against me and I have asked you to substantiate it. You also made claims about the proposed text which you have been asked to explain. Please respond to these points. Mooretwin (talk) 11:06, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

There is no proposed text. O Fenian (talk) 15:05, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Yes, there is. And you know there is as you engaged in discussion with me about it.

• McKittrick et al estimated in 1999 that the Provisional IRA was responsible for a total of 1,781 deaths to date and O'Brien has estimated that by 1986 the IRA had injured 6,000 British Army, UDR and RUC and up to 14,000 civilians, during the Troubles.

Mooretwin (talk) 17:30, 11 August 2009 (UTC) To try and hide the fact this group killed and wounded large numbers of civilians by completly avoiding mentioning it in the introduction seems like clear bias to me. Im not strongly supporting any wording, i dont like sentences which put injured / deaths into a single figure like it currently does because it doesnt provide clear information. Aslong as somewhere in the intro it states in a fair and neutral way that this organisation was responsible for a certain amount of deaths and injuries including of civilians then im ok it with. Without stating information on the deaths/wounded the introduction is very very weak, it tells the reader almost nothing at all and is biased.

Basically without that last sentence all the introduction says is.. What the paramilitary group is called, what it wanted, that its considered a terrorist organisation/ illegal in UK/ROI, it gave up its weapons and the British Army considered it "professional, dedicated, highly skilled and resilient". Apart from "bring about a united Ireland by force of arms and political persuasion" , it doesnt actually say anything about what this group DID. So "force of arms" is the only mention of violence in the whole introduction. Do we all honestly think without a sentence mentioning deaths / wounded the intro is balanced and neutral? BritishWatcher (talk) 10:03, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Now you're talking! It's the "Strategy 1969–1998" section that needs summarising in the lead. The fact that that the IRA carried on an "armed struggle" for those thirty years is the thing that's missing. It's far longer than the "Casualties" subsection. Without it, figures for death and injury tell the reader nothing. Why don't we work at improving that aspect of the lead? Scolaire (talk) 10:24, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree, but the outcome of that strategy which is death / injuries clearly needs to be mentioned too. If we could have a balanced paragraph in the intro covering strategy / deaths including how many of their own they lost in the 30 years i think it would be useful to the reader. BritishWatcher (talk) 10:39, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Well, the figures tell the reader how many lives were destroyed by the PIRA's "armed stuggle" (bit POV, some would consider it a "murder campaign"). The numbers of dead and wounded are the PIRA's major contribution to Ireland over the past 40 years (remember, they failed in their primary aim of a united Ireland), and therefore should appear in the lead for this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.133.101.139 (talk) 10:38, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Put in a request for Dispute Resolution

Following Durova's advice, I've opened a topic here in the hopes of getting consensus moving. Lot 49a 16:39, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Actually my advice was to open a formal mediation request (either WP:MEDCOM or WP:MEDCAB). The administrators' noticeboard does not provide dispute resolution. Durova 17:02, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Oh! I'm sorry, thanks for the correction. (Still new to DR) Lot 49a 17:04, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

How will the removal of information that is incorrect prevent the matter from being discussed. Why is incorrect information being left in place? --Domer48_'fenian' 21:58, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

The page was protected to stop the edit warring. Which could have led to blocks or other actions, since this page is under arbitration general sanctions. Page protection is the least intrusive way of dealing with that problem. And I'm not an administrator so I couldn't unprotect it if I wanted. Durova 15:25, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Now would you like to answer the questions? --Domer48_'fenian' 16:47, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

1. David McKittrick, Seamus Kelters, Brian Feeney and Chris Thornton (1999) ‘’Lost Lives: The stories of the men, women and children who died as a result of the Northern Ireland troubles’’. Edinburgh: Mainstream Publishing Company Ltd. ISBN 1 84018 227 X
2. Brendan O'Brien, The Long War - The IRA and Sinn Féin
3. David McKittrick, Seamus Kelters, Brian Feeney and Chris Thornton (1999) ‘’Lost Lives: The stories of the men, women and children who died as a result of the Northern Ireland troubles’’. Edinburgh: Mainstream Publishing Company Ltd. ISBN 1 84018 227 X
4. Brendan O'Brien, The Long War - The IRA and Sinn Féin
5. David McKittrick, Seamus Kelters, Brian Feeney and Chris Thornton (1999) ‘’Lost Lives: The stories of the men, women and children who died as a result of the Northern Ireland troubles’’. Edinburgh: Mainstream Publishing Company Ltd. ISBN 1 84018 227 X
6. Brendan O'Brien, The Long War - The IRA and Sinn Féin
7. David McKittrick, Seamus Kelters, Brian Feeney and Chris Thornton (1999) ‘’Lost Lives: The stories of the men, women and children who died as a result of the Northern Ireland troubles’’. Edinburgh: Mainstream Publishing Company Ltd. ISBN 1 84018 227 X
8. Brendan O'Brien, The Long War - The IRA and Sinn Féin

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