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Ireland Start‑class Low‑importance

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Irish republicanism Start‑class Mid‑importance

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Is he McManus or MacManus? The media reports suggest McManus16:37, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

I actually think that he is Mac not Mc - can someone please alter the title

Here is a link to the Sinn Fein website with his brother and father listed as Mac

http://www.sinnfein.ie/representatives Vintagekits 17:44, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

I'd have to say this surprises me, as I was in school with Joe and I believe he spelled it Mc and not Mac. However, I suppose the official Sinn Fein site would have his father's and brother's names correct so I'd go with that. --The.Q 12:18, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

POV terminology

I've removed "killed on active service" from the lede and replaced with "killed" which is perfectly adequate. "On active service" is a POV term used by supporters of PIRA and other paramilitary groups. Mooretwin (talk) 12:06, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

I am not a supporter and I don't see it as POV. BigDunc 13:05, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

As, presumably, you are aware, it is a term used by PIRA and supporters/apologists to legitimise their actions as being on a par with military actions (KIA is a military term). If PIRA victims are not allowed to be described as having been "murdered" because it is supposedly POV, and PIRA atrocities not allowed to be described as "terrorism", then "killed on active service" must similarly be avoided. Wouldn't you agree? MacManus was "killed on active service" from the POV of the PIRA. From others' POV he was killed while engaging in terrorism. From NPOV he was just killed. Mooretwin (talk) 13:13, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

What Mooretwin said. Just state the facts, not the facts from a republican perspective. Stu 13:59, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

There's a few other pages worded like this. Stu 14:15, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Would you mind editing the article in line with WP:NPOV? Thanks. Mooretwin (talk) 14:24, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

It is currently NPOV and any attempt to enter your POV will be resisted with extreme vigour. Unless the Derry Journal, Peter Hart, Phil Scanton and The Independent are all POV that is! --Vintagekits (talk) 19:43, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

By the same logic, all the thousands of WP:RS references to PIRA terrorist attacks mean that terrorist is NPOV and you'll accept such edits to this article and otherwise? If not, then it would appear that you are approaching this article from a particular POV. Mooretwin (talk) 21:05, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

As for the sources: the Derry Journal merely quotes the brother of a PIRA member using the term, the Peter Hart source refers to the 1919-21 war of independence and I can't find the reference in Stanton. Mooretwin (talk) 21:08, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

This clearly needs wider input and a centralised discussion. WP:IWNB? Stu 10:30, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Maybe wider than Ireland? Is there a terrorism project page? Mooretwin (talk) 10:33, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

There is - Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Terrorism. This article isn't tagged as being within their remit. The PIRA article is though. I guess this is a similar issue as the Volunteer usage that required mediation. Let's not go there with this, there are plenty of protracted discussions going on elsewhere to keep everyone busy. I don't know which project to raise it at, Ireland probably. Stu 11:09, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

I didn't mean terrorism instead of Ireland, but as well as. There could be cross-cutting issues, e.g. using terms like "active service" or "killed in action", "martyr" in relation to, say ETA, or Islamic terrorists. Mooretwin (talk) 11:14, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Words to avoid could apply here. I'll raise it at both projects later, but redirect comments at the terrorism project to the Ireland project to avoid two concurrent discussions. Stu 11:39, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Good plan. Mooretwin (talk) 12:36, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

I would agree with you with regards "martyr" or "hero" or "terrorist" or "freedom fighter" but active service is a commonly used term and in fact the more reliable the source becomes the more frequent the source - eg. A Secret History of the IRA: Ed Moloney, The Provos: The IRA and Sinn Fein: Peter Taylor etc. --Vintagekits (talk) 12:18, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Terrorist and terrorism are also commonly-used terms. "Active service" is a term used from the POV of the paramilitary/terrorist organisation seeking to portray itself as legitimate. I expect Moloney et al use the term to describe events from a PIRA perspective. Mooretwin (talk) 12:36, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

I stopped reading at "I expect".--Vintagekits (talk) 09:15, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Rename suggestion

MacManus appears in the historical record only for one incident where he was shot. The incident itself appears to me to be more notable given the resulting legal case and the decoration of Glass by the Queen. Should this article be renamed for the incident itself? Misplaced Pages documents the incident not the man Kernel Saunters (talk) 12:00, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Is the annaul lecture about Glass, is the monument erected to Glass, is the chapter in "Rebel Hearts" about Glass? are the Sinn Fein Cumanns named after Glass, the legal case or the trinkets handed out by the Queen? no. These focus on the man - nothing else - which make the man notable!--Vintagekits (talk) 12:12, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Yes the Rebel Hearts chapter is about Glass and the incident, the DCM and the trip around Buckingham Palace was for Glass and the Legal case involved Glass and the defendents in the trial didn't include MacManus as he was already 6ft under Kernel Saunters (talk) 12:17, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

No its not - the main focus of the whole chapater is MacManus.--Vintagekits (talk) 12:19, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

I have a copy - Glass gets equal focus as he shot MacManus in the faceKernel Saunters (talk) 12:20, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Yeah because Glass really had a "Rebel Heart" alright - I can see why he would be the focus!--Vintagekits (talk) 12:22, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

His family do feature particularly as Glass comments on the waste of a young life polluted by provo propaganda. The focus of the piece is about the incident and the effects on Glass and why MacManus was involved Kernel Saunters (talk) 12:25, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

The ill informed personal opinions of Glass, his bigoted career and family are of little interest to me. Your snidey wee comments throughout this discussion haven't gone unnoticed. You might have changed your name but you haven't changed your spots. If you are just on a wind up I suggest you go elsewhere as I wont be bitin!--Vintagekits (talk) 12:33, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Please refrain from personal attacks. They reflect poorly on the attacker moreso than his or her object. Mooretwin (talk) 12:58, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Certainly sweetheart. I will keep my NPA's to a 1:1 ratio of your canvassing. Deal?--Vintagekits (talk) 13:03, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Read the chapter; Glass comments on MacManus's family - its a primary focus of the chapter - Glass reserves his disapproval for MacManus' family. Indeed the MacManus family are interviewed in this context. This is not a wind-up and all my comments are substantiated in Rebel Hearts. Kernel Saunters (talk) 12:41, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

I think I might have read it if I was the one that actually added the source. Without doubt the author does use interviews with Glass and his family in the chapter but the primary focus of the chapter is MacManus himself - but Glass or the ambush.--Vintagekits (talk) 15:03, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

MacManus appears only to be notable because he was a PIRA member who was killed and articles have been created (presumably by PIRA apologists) on all such persons. There do not appear to be routine articles on other persons killed during the Troubles. Mooretwin (talk) 12:29, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Cry me a river!--Vintagekits (talk) 12:33, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Create an article for Glass, this article meets all policy requirements for an article and rename is not an option. BigDunc 14:46, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

No-one has suggested creating an article for Glass. The suggestion is that this article be renamed for the Mulleek ambush, given that the ambush appears to be the real subject of the article, with details about MacManus merely incidental. Mooretwin (talk) 14:53, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

The article is about MacManus and also the incident in which he died. If you want create an article on the ambush. BigDunc 14:56, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

MacManus' notability appears to derive only from the ambush. He is incidental to the ambush itself. Information about his schooling and wife, for example, do not appear to be notable. It seems to me that it is the ambush, and not MacManus, that is notable. Mooretwin (talk) 15:10, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Wife? Notable for much more than just the ambush - including his legacy which is detailed. sweat dreams.--Vintagekits (talk) 15:17, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

His "legacy" derives from the fact that he was killed in the ambush. There'd be no memorial or "lecture" if he were still alive, or had died a natural death. Mooretwin (talk) 15:58, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

The memorial and lecture and the naming of the Cumann are because of his republicanism not just his death.--Vintagekits (talk) 17:35, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

As noted above, I doubt very much that either would have been named after him, had he not died as he did. What did he do that was notable, other than die in the ambush? Mooretwin (talk) 17:43, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

This is a BS argument, MacManus is notable because he has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, per policy so stop this crap. BigDunc 17:50, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Agreed! End of story! --Domer48_'fenian' 18:19, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Significant coverage because he was killed in the ambush. Mooretwin (talk) 23:15, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Military infobox

Anyone know what the current consensus is on using military infoboxes for members of paramilitary organizations? This is the first time I have seen it used. I can envisage a few issues over this, not least the use of "Volunteer" as a rank (the consensus in the past was the "volunteer" by used a descriptive term (no caps), rather than a proper noun (caps)) in this context. Perhaps advice from the military and terrorism Wikiprojects would be helpful? Rockpocket 06:47, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree. This should be brought to the attention of both projects. Mooretwin (talk) 09:09, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Bring it up - I'll shot it down. In the words of your beloved British Army - he represented an "undefeated army" - a military man in anyones mind that isnt riddled with POV.--Vintagekits (talk) 09:14, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

The above contribution merely demonstrates the POV nature of the box's inclusion: it appears to be included to support a particular POV as articulated above. Mooretwin (talk) 09:31, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Zzzzzzz!!! You bore me more and more everyday. Its not my POV its the scum in the British Army's POV.--Vintagekits (talk) 11:35, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

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