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Revision as of 23:55, 29 June 2009

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Archive 1

Requested move

It has been proposed in this section that Straight-four engine be renamed and moved to Inline-four engine. A bot will list this discussion on the requested moves current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil. Please use {{subst:requested move}}. Do not use {{requested move/dated}} directly. Links: current log • target log • direct move

Straight-four engine → Inline-four engine — Straight-4 engine is rarely, if ever used to describe (an inline) 4-cylinder engine. Article name should be changed to Inline-four engine which is most often used to describe this type of 4-cylinder engine. Vegavairbob (talk) 22:11, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

• Straight-six Straight-6 and Straight eight Straight-8 are used to describe these engines because 6- and 8-cylinder engines are also (and usually) offered in V configurations where 4-cylinder engines usually are not. Because of this 4-cylinder engines are not (and don't need to be) referred to as Straight-four engines.Vegavairbob (talk) 22:11, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
• However, a much better name would be Four cylinder engine, or 4-cylinder engine. Almost all four cylinder engines are inline, and unless otherwise specified, they are inline. Straight-four is almost never used, and inline-four hardly ever used. Four cylinder engine already redirects to this article. 199.125.109.19 (talk) 01:58, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
• Oppose: the other Straight-x engine article use the same format, so why be different? Also, straight-four engines maybe not be referred to as such in the U.S., but they are elsewhere (UK, Australia, NZ (+ probably others, but I don't know any more off-hand)). OSX (talk • contributions) 06:49, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
• Oppose: Both terms are in popular use but we should keep it consistent with the other straight 2/3/... articles. Redirects take care of the other forms and most people won't even notice the difference. And for 199.125.109.19, there are plenty of V4's (Ford) and boxer 4's (Subaru, VW, Porsche) out there. Stepho-wrs (talk) 08:36, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
• Oppose: Highly unnecessary move, seeing as how straight and inline are synonyms.--Flash176 (talk) 12:41, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
• Oppose. I can see some justification for the move, in that the normal abbreviation for this configuraion is I4. But the justificaton given seems to be based on guesswork, and not always very good guesses. The names straight-four and straight-six probably came from the famous straight-eight automobile engines of the early and mid twentieth century, which were slightly preceded by the V-8. Other inline automoble engines of the period had relatively little competition from corresponding V configurations, and the inline four is still dominant enough among four cylinder autmomobile engines to often be simply described as a four, with vees and boxers etc being more fully described. On balance, I'd leave it as is. Andrewa (talk) 13:53, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
• Oppose: "Straight" and "inline" are synonymous, so the issue can be handled with redirects. "Straight-six" and "straight-eight" are more popular because of the poetic nature of the names (alliteration and assonance, respectively), which "straight-four" lacks, but it's still a common name for the configuration. V-4's are rare, but they do exist, as do flat-fours (alliteration, again). If we were starting with a blank article, it might be worthwhile to use "inline-4" (as long as we also used "inline-6" and "inline-8"), but at this point, I don't think it's worthwhile changing it.RockyMtnGuy (talk) 16:07, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
• Comment. I won't bother voting, but please note that "...to keep it consistent with other Misplaced Pages pages" is absolutely no reason at all to have an article at a certain title. Per WP:COMMONNAME, we should go with the most common name as used by secondary sources, not what helps keep our own little filing system tidy. If that's your only reason for opposing, I'd recommend you strike your vote. Incidentally, a Google search of all variations ("inline/straight-4", "inline/straight 4", "inline/straight-four", "inline/straight four") suggests that "inline" is the more common term in each case; whether or not its majority—between 2:1 and 4:1—is sufficient to warrant the move is another argument. --DeLarge (talk) 19:07, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
• Comment. I don't have any strong feelings on this, but shouldn't inline-four engine redirect to straight-four engine (or vice versa if the move were to be made)? I'm kind of surprised that there isn't already a redirect in place. swaq 20:24, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
  • Comment Yes, that redirect was definitely missing. I've just put up redirects from Inline-four engine and Inline-4 engine. That won't resolve or dissolve this present proposal, but it should alleviate whatever dead-end-link effects might have been bothering Vegavairbob. I haven't made up my mind whether I favour the proposed move. I do see and hear both terms in widespread common usage, so I don't think either term can really be considered wrong. My unsystematic survey suggests Rockymtnguy may be correct that people might tend to select one word or the other depending on which number follows it. For instance, people seem to want to say "straight-8" rather than "inline-8" because the former rhymes. I don't think I agree with Vegavairbob that inline is necessarily more suitable or appropriate than straight, but I don't think I agree with DeLarge, either, for WP:GHITS seems to caution us against basing this sort of decision purely on Google hit counts. —Scheinwerfermann
    • It's an argument to be avoided in deletion discussions. In fact, the first line of prose text in WP:GHITS says "...using a search engine like Google can be useful in determining how common or well-known a particular topic is...", and that's all I was doing. You can occasionally get some anomalous results, but as a test of which is the more commonly used term, it's usually a reasonable barometer. Regards, --DeLarge (talk) 22:31, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

·_C20:55, 29 June 2009 (UTC) A long time ago, I made some choice with agrement of several Wikipedians. "Inline" has not exactly the same sense in aviation and automobile. In aviation "inline" is opposed to "radial" thus a "V12 inline engine" makes senses for an airplane. Ericd (talk) 21:31, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

• 'Comment The issue here is not the redirect. The issue is the name of the article. I have not seen a 4 cylinder inline engine referred to as Straight-4 in ANY publications (Road & Track, Car and Driver, Road Test, Motor Trend, or ANY engineering reports in 40 years. It is incorrect. The article should titled inline-four engine with the re-direct for Straight-four. Is this going to be based on opinion or what is widely used? Why should this site use the less common name for any article, including an inline-four engine? If you want to improve the auto articles on this site, start with the proper names of the articles, instead of individual preferences, and if one is found and proven to be widely used, use that one. I haven't read one statement here that states Straight-four is more widely used than inline-4.Vegavairbob (talk) 22:16, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Careful, Vegavairbob, you appear to be making some errors. The most substantial one is that you are conflating what you remember having personally seen with what is correct. That's not tenable, either in the real world or on Misplaced Pages. We have had editors in this discussion state they have seen and heard "straight four"; your gainsaying them doesn't make them wrong, doesn't make you right, and doesn't help advance your case. (You needn't believe me on this one; here and here are some reliable sources using straight-4 engine or straight-four engine.) You also seem to be conflating what you don't happen to like with objective incorrectness; that's also problematic. Moreover, please keep in mind that America does not have a monopoly on terminology in English. As at least one other editor has noted, prevalence of straight-4 or inline-4 may well vary by English-speaking region.

We have here a discussion about two names that are both about equally defensible, technically and linguistically. That makes it a relatively unimportant battle. Which is not to say your ideas are unimportant or not valued, just that you may want to have a cuppa tea, lower your voice (please; you are veering near to the edge of incivility), and think carefully about whether winning this particular battle will be worth the cost. To get a sense of what a relatively important terminological question looks like, please see here and here (the latter is an example of how a very involved, impassioned editor can change his mind and pursue a third option satisfactory to all parties to end a fruitless tug-o'-war).

Also, please, for the nth time in as many months, as you have been repeatedly asked by numerous editors on your talk page and elsewhere, make all your edits in one go rather than making an edit, then editing your edit, then editing your edit of your edit in a series of little tweaks. As has been explained to you numerous times, your endless series of little tweaks is disruptive because it creates edit conflicts and makes it difficult for others to contribute to the discussion. As I type this, I am on attempt number six to contribute to the discussion; faced each time with an edit conflict caused by your changing your comments one word or punctuation mark at a time. Please stop it. Thanks (again) for trying to edit coöperatively. —Scheinwerfermann ·_C22:40, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Comment I have not seen Straight-4 or Straight-four used to describe an inline -4 engine in 40 years of publications and engineering reports. In the 70's when a V4 was available in Europe it might have been used then (in Europe) but its never been used in America to describe an inline-4 engine.Isn't that where the Straight 6 and Straight 8 designations came from? Even the 1962 Chevy II 153 cubic-inch 4-cylinder engine was referred to as an inline-4.Vegavairbob (talk)

Comment Let's pick a world-wide Auto publication, Road & Track. They have never used Straight-4 to describe an inline-4 engine. If you want to know which is "correct" you would have to use the leading auto publications as setting the example instead of an opinion of a few of the editors here, including me. I'm saying its correct only because they use it. Who do you want to go by. Don't take my word for it. Pick up a copy of Road and Track and look at their annual specifications pages issue for world-wide cars from ANY year. They use inline-4.Vegavairbob (talk) 23:48, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Please remember, we work by consensus here, number one. Consensus does not require unanimity, and sometimes the consensus goes against our personal opinions and preferences. Number two, Road & Track is an American publication. It's probably sold worldwide, but that does not make a worldwide publication, nor does it make it authoritative with respect to this particular snippet of English usage. —Scheinwerfermann ·_C23:55, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

• Oppose. Both terms are technically and linguistically sound, no apparent advantage either way. Redirects do an adequate job of ensuring coverage without confusion. —Scheinwerfermann ·_C23:55, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

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