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Biography: Arts and Entertainment C‑class

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This article was nominated for deletion on 24 January 2009. The result of the discussion was delete.

My edits

• Notability tag: the article still fails to demonstrate significant coverage from 3rd-party sources (the most basic criteria for a Misplaced Pages article). Not to mention, the article was previously deleted and isn't showing much validation at all for being recreated.
• Primary sources tag: sources like this, this, this, and this are all primary (and some of them poor, at that).
• Removed refs:

This artnet.com ref does not back up the claim it follows.

"Schomburg Center for Research in Black Culture, New York, USA, has not digitized their archives yet." Do I even need to explain this one?

• Removed the second quote: this is getting to POV-pushing w/ back-to-back flattering quotes; not to mention, what someone said to introduce someone's work isn't very "third-party" or count as a legit source without having gone through a publication process - although I think I left the ref in one spot where it wasn't being used for flattery.

• Clarification inline tag: he "found his vocation as a photographer" in 1968, but he had already bought his first camera in 1966 and wouldn't become a professional until 1971. That could use a little clarity.

• Removed some bio info: being impacted by the 60s and Woodstock is vague, and along with his uncited passion for chess, irrelevant and unencyclopedic. Other deletions were for original research.

My other concerns are that the exhibitions and collections lists are mainly OR (although I didn't tag them) and that too much of the info is cited to self-published sources. For example, the two main lists of mags he's shot for are exactly what third-party, reliable sources are most needed for.

I also did some wikifying and rewriting so that the article reads a little better.  Mbinebri  16:29, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Wikifying and rewriting?
You don't even know what a vocation is. You delete a very important reference, PF magazine, without any second thought because you are too impatient to wait for their server.
You just manipulate the article direction deletion because of your own problem with Errol Sawyer since he popped up in the Christie Brinkley article as the one who has discovered her. You could hardly accept the reference to Michael Gross book there and you continued taking away African in front of American. What's your real problem? You should treasure every African-American artist that rises up to the level of an Errol Sawyer despite people who are racist and prefer him to be invisable.1027E (talk) 01:18, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

1027E, editors of Misplaced Pages take seriously allegations of thoughtlessness ("impulsive eruptions"), bad faith ("hatred" and insinuation of some "real problem"), and ignorance ("you know nothing about art and art history"). Please either (a) concisely and politely back up these allegations with clear evidence, or (b) retract them and consider apologizing for them. As it is, I see no evidence for them, while I see a blatant violation of WP:AGF by yourself, and serious concerns about WP:OWN and WP:COI. And all of this in/about an article whose very existence appears problematic, as it was re-created after deletion by "AfD" without (as far as I am aware) any discussion in WP:DRV. -- Hoary (talk) 02:09, 30 April 2009 (UTC) This comment was in response to the comment by 1027E as seen here but subsequently revised. -- Hoary (talk) 12:41, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

I have reinstated part of 1027E's comment that she removed in this edit, and I have reinstated my own comment, which she removed in the same edit.

1027E, please read this, carefully. It applies to everybody, you and me included. -- Hoary (talk) 07:52, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Action is reaction

Action is reaction. Mbineri and I we have a history together. Ask his friend Robbie too. Read how they address Errol Sawyer and me in their talk page.
If Mbineri apologizes for taking away references again like PF Magazine and the fact that Schomburg Library of Black Culture has not digitized their archives yet (which says it all about the New York, USA), I will apologize to him too.
Mbineri took away several times the reference of Michael Gross in the Christie Brinkley article that says that Errol Sawyer discovered her.
He still takes out African in front of American. Now the reference of the book of Michael Gross is still there but it took a while...
I am working on getting the scanned PF article connected in pdf to the Errol Sawyer article so it cannot be taken away anymore by people who don't have the patience for a server to load.
Thank you for your understanding and cooperation and on top of that respect for an important artist like Errol Sawyer. Maybe you can look at his website one time.1027E (talk) 07:58, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

I presume that you mean User:Robby.is.on. A quick look through the talk pages of both users shows nothing objectionable, aside from your allegation of bad faith in this edit, in which you say You have bad intentions you are looking for revanche You are insulting on purpose. If you think I missed something vital, please point me to the precise edit (just as I have now pointed you to a precise edit).

Mbineri was right to remove the comment about the Schomburg Library.

If by the PF Magazine reference you mean the two links to http://www.profoto.nl/PF-site/archief.php then I'd point out that as of about ten minutes ago this URL redirected to http://www.professionelefotografie.nl/ -- a page that does not mention Sawyer. If the two articles appear somewhere else within this website or some other website, then what's needed are the precise URLs.

The article now lists six solo exhibitions, only one of which is sourced; and six collections, only two of which are sourced. Contrast those percentages with the 100% sourced lists for Chris Steele-Perkins. I have good reason to believe that Steele-Perkins had other solo exhibitions that I do not list, and the reason I don't list them is that although I believe that they occurred I can't (yet) provide reliable evidence for this. WP:RS also applies to every assertion of an achievement within this article on Sawyer, and the more insistent you are that it does not or that extenuating circumstances override WP:RS, or that for others to question claims made within this article constitutes an insult to Sawyer, racism, or whatever, the closer you come to a block for disruptive behavior and the more likely this article is to be sent off for a second AfD. -- Hoary (talk) 13:16, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Section reposted after deletion by 1027E; see this. -- Hoary (talk) 07:56, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

References

Schomburg Library of Black Culture is sourced. I can attach the e-mail of Mary Yearwood, the curator of Photography, apologizing for the fact the archives are not digitized yet.

           Delivered-To: removed
           X-DDS-Server: spalding.dds.nl
           Subject: Re: Record of Errol Sawyer's Images at the Schomburg
           X-KeepSent: 47E8B4CA:44D89692-8525754D:006DC4E2;
            type=4; name=$KeepSent
           To: Errol Sawyer <removed>
           Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 15:31:45 -0500
           From: removed
           X-Virus-Status: Clean

           Dear Errol:

           I cannot provide you with a link to your collection as it has
           not yet been
           cataloged.  Your collection is part of the backlog of material
           that we are
           working furiously to get cataloged.  The collection also is not
           digitized.
           As a habit, we only digitize public domain photographs or those
           for which
           we have secured permission from the copyright holder.  As soon
           as the
           collection is cataloged I will notify you.

           To refresh your memory, the collection consists of the
           following:

           Forty (40) fiber prints consisting of twelve (12) 11x14
           unmounted prints
           and twenty-eight (28) 13 1/2x9 1/4 prints mounted on 17x14
           boards.

           I have very little bibliographic information for the collection
           except so
           say that it includes Murdered by the CIA, New York, 1983-84;
           Man on door,
           New York, 1984 and Change, Amsterdam, 1989.  In general, I have
           no way of
           knowing whether the entire body of work was produced between
           1983 and 1989.
           I would be very grateful for any other information you can
           supply.

           Finally, if there is a third party that is interesting in
           viewing the
           collection, please feel free to pass along my information.

           Sincerely,

           Mary F. Yearwood
           Curator, Photographs and Prints Division
           Schomburg Center for Research in Black Culture
           The New York Public Library
           515 Malcolm X Boulevard
           New York, NY 10037
           (212) 491-2231
           Fax (212) 491-2271

Research is not only digital at the University in Holland. The same I can do with letters from Fadi Zahar and Eric Franck.
I have scanned and uploaded the PF article to my talk page (8 pages in total: 1 page of text and 7 pages with pictures of E. Sawyer, full page). Why don't you read it first and get back to me? You'd better be fast because I am still struggling with the copyrights. I will upload a link to a television program in Holland about Errol and his father, playwright Robert Earl Sawyer, soon too. Thank you,1027E (talk) 19:42, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

In line with WP policy, I have removed both email addresses from the message above. -- Hoary (talk) 00:36, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages hosting of PDFs of Sawyer's works

I have deleted the pdf of PF Magazine as well as the book cover as we don't want to permit free use. You can read a printable English version of the text of the Dutch Pf article at Errol Sawyer's website.--1027E (talk) 07:09, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Notability Errol Sawyer

Once again: the amount of pictures in important collections determine the notability of an artist. In this case: MFAH, Bibliotheque Nationale and Schomburg. On top of that Eric Franck, Manfred Heiting and Fadi Zahar. If you would be known with European culture, you would know that these people are very important. Eric Franck is the brother in law of Henri Cartier-Bresson. Probably you don't know him either.
Errol Sawyer had several solo exhibitions but before digital times. But it is the collections that count. I will ask somebody else to take the tags away as the person who actually deleted it, MBisanz, acknowledges now that he does not know enough about photography to help me further. As long as you don't vote for deletion again I am fine because by next week I will have Eric Franck too as a reference again. 1027E (talk) 16:58, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

By the way, Errol Sawyer is also ground breaking as an artist as he is the only African American photographer who worked in the Seventies in Paris. Like a James Baldwin (African-American writer), Beauford Delaney (African-American painter) and Chester Himes (African American writer) Errol Sawyer chose to live in Europe as he feels saver there.
Errol Sawyer is a very important role model for the African American Community. He is also the only African American photographer in Holland and his works stands out because of his strong graphics and double layers and complex meanings. How can I address this to a board who determines notability? You are only a specialist in Japanese photography.1027E (talk) 17:14, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

there is no board. notability is determined at AfD by the community. the results there are unpredictable, with a considerable amount of randomness. The standards for notability by inclusion in major permanent collections appear to be met, however. The coverage by a significant magazine in the field would add to it. If the coverage was substantial, as appears to be the case, it does not have to be accessible on line. The burden of doubt here is on someone who challenges it. DGG (talk) 22:01, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

I agree with much, but not all, of what DGG writes. Perhaps I'll get to the disagreement later. In the meantime, two points:

First, this talk page is for discussion of the article, and not for discussion of the subject of the article.

Secondly, on myself (and superior alternatives). While I am indeed unaware of Eric Franck, just three days ago I was looking at a book of his sister's photographs, and I am moderately well acquainted with the work of her late husband. But yes, I am a humble neophyte in European culture. If you'd like to discuss my ignorance, please do so on my talk page. If you'd like input from somebody who's a lot more knowledgable than I am, I recommend User:Jpgordon. -- Hoary (talk) 01:15, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

I will contact Jpgordon. He seems to have good taste in photography. Thank you.1027E (talk) 14:36, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

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