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Revision as of 21:09, 3 May 2009

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Name

Hobartimus, you did not had a single reason to revert my edits here: Momčilo Tapavica was an ethnic Serb (I even have some cousins with this surname), so this is name which was written in church registry books when he was born, this was the name under which he lived and died (in Yugoslavia), and the only place where Hungarian version of his name is used are Olympics games. He clearly was not an example of magyarized person like for example Jovan Damjanić whose article name written in Hungarian is no problem. Tapavica, however, is different case, and we should implement here the Wiki policy to write native names of the people. PANONIAN 16:34, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

You did not give reason to your abusive and undiscussed move. This article is about a person who won bronze medal for Hungary. If you notice I did not create the article, it was created with the name under which Momcsilló Tapavicza is known. He is known under that name because he competed under that name in the Olympics. Misplaced Pages policy will be followed in this case. I'm not sure if you are aware that moving articles happens under the "request for moves" process, especially controversial moves. Also according to the article he was born in Nádalja, Hungary so he was citizen by birth, not a "foreign national studying in Budapest". It seems he was no different than any other citizen competing for their respective countries. I'm sure there were some citizens of various mixed ethnic backgrounds who competed for Serbia during the times. Hobartimus (talk) 17:15, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

The Serbian name is noted, his Serbian origin is noted, there is a redirect from various Serbian versions of the name. If he really competed for Serbia in 1912 as some IP alleged we can add that too, although it is doubtful since there is no info that he moved to Serbia, or acquired citizenship there in 1912 and he was already 40 years old at that time an age where sportsmen rarely compete at an Olympic level. "The first official participation of Serbia was in 1912, this would make Tapavicza to the first (unofficial) competitor from Serbia." -this was the original sentence this sentence does not claim that Tapavicza competed in 1912. Hobartimus (talk) 17:32, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

This IS NOT "article about a person who won bronze medal for Hungary", but about person that is famous for other reasons as well including the reason that he was famous architect. Misplaced Pages has a clear policy that in such cases native names of the people are used and no matter that he was born under Hungarian administration, he later lived and died in his own country, Yugoslavia, and the name that is written on his grave is certainly not written with Hungarian alphabet. Guess what: we have article about Hungarian politician from Serbia named József Kasza and not Jožef Kasa, no matter that Serbian variant of his name is more often used in media and documents than Hungarian one. Also, it is irrelevant who created article under which name, since it is obvious that person that created article had a single source listing a name of this person written with Hungarian alphabet and was not aware of other sources that list this person under its native name. I can list such sources for you in simple google search: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=momcilo+tapavica&btnG=Google+Search Try this one for example: http://www.oks.org.rs/i1010201e.htm And more data about him you have here: http://forum.burek.com/index.php/topic,231021.0.html The last source is in Serbian, but among other things, it say that Tapavica moved to Montenegro in 1908, then that he also lived in Morocco and later returned to Yugoslavia where he worked for Yugoslav government, so it is clear what his national feeling was - he certainly did not considered himself a Hungarian (and was not of mixed ethnic background) and therefore he was not a person "of Serbian origin", but was a Serb that lived and died as a Serb in his own country Yugoslavia. PANONIAN 06:08, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

Oppose move, Momcsilló Tapavicza is most known for his achievement as a bronze medal winner for Hungary in the very first Olympics he is most known under this name. The fact that the article under this name was created by a third person (compare with WP:TO) also supports this. I think the above user went too far in using sources such as "http://forum.burek.com" an internet forum and arriving at the conclusion that "a Serb that lived and died as a Serb in his own country Yugoslavia." which is as offensive as it is dangerous. Hobartimus (talk) 12:02, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

Offensive and dangerous? Listen: this man was born and died under name Momčilo Tapavica and the only reason why he appeared under name Momcsilló Tapavicza in the olimpycs was the fact that rulers of the country from which he came were racists who hated his ethnicity, his language and his native name and therefore they allowed to him to participate in the olympics only under magyarized (i.e. false) name. That racism is, mister Hobartimus, what was very insulting in that time and it is insulting now and if we keep name Momcsilló Tapavicza for this article then we will send a message that we support racist magyarization policy implemented by the Kingdom of Hungary in that time. As for sources, see google search again, I just showed to you few sources from the first page of the search results, but there are much more from where they came: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=momcilo+tapavica&btnG=Google+Search PANONIAN 14:04, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

What I meant was the bloodshed caused by the view that "Serb in his own country Yugoslavia" that Yugoslavia was the "Serbs own country", when Serbs in Croatia wanted to put it in practice, when Serbs in Bosnia they started to murder other ethnicities because "Yugoslavia was their own country" more recently Serbs started to murder Albanians in Kosovo for the same reason, because Kosovo, Yugoslavia was the "Serbs own country" too apparently. I think such views are very dangerous and wonder how many more people must die before GreatSerb extremism will be discarded as a valid view. But this does not really matter here only Wiki policies matter under which the most recognized name in English is used. And this is obviously the one recorded in Olympic records and such I think you know this as well that you are arguing against solid policy based on your personal POV. Hobartimus (talk) 14:46, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

Yugoslavia was native country of Serbs and other South Slavs (I never said "of Serbs only") unlike Austria-Hungary in which Serbs and South Slavs were treated as second class citizens (something like black people in the USA in the past). And it is very interesting that you (of all people) speak about Greater Serbian nationalism when you are noted Greater Hungarian nationalist who use Misplaced Pages to "fight" with various Romanian, Slovak and serb editors for "great national cause" - you are constantly involved in revert wars with multiple users trying to push your hungarocentric views for everything. As for name: whether this person is most know for participation in olympics or not is irrelevant for the issue which name we would use in this article - I will repeat that only reason why his name was written with Hungarian alphabet in olympic games is that he was a member of oppressed minority in the country ruled by racists who did not allowed to this man to participate in the sports event under his native name. In another words, this sportsman was a victim of such racist oppression and he had to give away his ethnic pride and his personal name in order to fulfil his love for sports. It would be outrage if Misplaced Pages implement racist magyarization policy that did not allowed to this man to participate in the sports event under his real name. PANONIAN 21:09, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

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