| Revision as of 01:03, 18 November 2008 edit90.205.111.233 (talk) →Hypocrisy← Previous edit | Revision as of 14:33, 12 February 2009 edit undoJamieli (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users2,243 editsNo edit summaryNext edit → | ||
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| '''Lack of depth''' | '''Lack of depth''' | ||
| I suppose I cannot complain to much because of lack of independent study of this community. | I suppose I cannot complain to much because of lack of independent study of this community. | ||
| == "and a few Hindus and Sikhs throughout some communities." == | |||
| While it may be true that there are many British Hindus & Sikhs who can trace their origins to the part of the Punjab that is now Pakistan, they're almost always going to identify themselves as Indian or Punjabi. Find me a Brit who identifies themselves as a "Pakistani Hindu" or a "Pakistani Sikh" and I'll show you a gorilla that can play golf. ] (]) 14:33, 12 February 2009 (UTC) | |||
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Expansion of this article
This article needs to be expanded, there are many other issues to talk about.
1. Failure of Integration 2. Economics 3. Religion 4. Way of Life
These were some of the topics I wanted to cover. Can anyone help me find some information?
User:Bk2006 10:19 October 23 2007 (UTC)
Why is this article needed?
There's already an article on the subject at British Asian, so why is another redundant article required? speaks rohith. 22:15, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
Reasons Why I Started This Article
- 1. The "British Asian" article (if you want to call it that) is biased and grossly one-sided in portraying Indians as sucessful while Bangladeshis and Pakistanis as failures. There is hardly any mention of the 1 million strong Pakistani community in that article, nor are there any photos and even mentioning of any British Pakistanis. Infact the article is more concerned in trying to compare Indians with Pakistanis in Britian than about British Asians themselves, which by the way, includes Bangladeshis, Sri Lankans and Nepalis and not to mention the Asian population from East Africa, Polynesia and the West Indies.
- 2. Asian is to broad. As you can see it covers mostly every part of the world. The West Indies, Polynesia, East Africa and South Asia. Were talking about a community which represents a large chunk of the British population, it would be wise to divide it up as much as possible for simplicity.
BK2006. 13:49, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
Merge into British Asian
This article is redundant and should be merged into British Asian. In answer to BK2006's comments above, (1) If British Asian is biased and one-sided, it should be corrected with the information on this page, not left to rot. (2) The British Asian page explains that 'Asian' in the UK means "South Asian", it has nothing to do with Polynesia, etc. One could add that Pakistan was part of India before 1947, so it makes sense to discuss Indian and Pakistani immigration within the same article rather than duplicate pre-1947 material. Cop 663 (talk) 17:54, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
Don't Merge
It should be corrected, however I'm not a British Pakistani I wouldn't even know where to begin, however that article is one-sided and many have tried to fix it. Sadly many indians revert the edits back, and frankly I'm sick of it. Pakistanis are 1 million in population in the United Kingdom, I think they deserve their own page. Indians and Pakistanis are not the samething, just because many look the same doesn't mean anything, the same argument could be said for Chinese and Japanese, are you going to classify them as the same people?
This article shouldn't be merged, it's better to divide up British Asian and discuss each ethnic background differently. This is the same pattern the Americans, Australians and Canadians have followed as well.
See Pakistani Canadian, Pakistani American, Pakistani Australian
BK2006 15:31, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
Don't Merge *2
I agree with BK2006 that British Pakistani's should not be merged, it is important to have sub categories from British Asian, as they contain more detail, and show that say Pakistanis are considerably different than Indians (e.g. language and religion wise). Black British is split up in to sub articles such as Kenyan British and British Jamaicans. I think that it is crazy that there is not an seperate article about British Indians, at around 2 million, they make up the UK's single largest ethnic minority group, however communities of little under 100,000 (such as the Swiss British community has a article about them). If British Pakistanis stays, which I hope it does, I suggest strongly that a British Indians article is created, it is like creating a article about Monaco and not the United States.
Plus to answer to the Polynesian comment above, I think that BK2006 was refering to people of South Asian descent who come from Polynesia to the UK. This could be compared to ethnic French people who have migrated to Canada and then to the UK. However I would consider these people Polynesian and Canadian respectively, as Black Caribbean people who have migrated to the UK are actually of African descent. I agree that the term 'British Asian' is a confusing, and some whould say incorrect usage of the word, as I and most other people would agree that British Asian should include people of all Asian ethnicities as it does in the USA, Canada, Australia and virtually every other country in the world. However, this is down to the government and cannot exactly be changed. I hope that this article remains as it is, and other sub South Asian categories are created, what harm can it do. It is a really bad idea to remove or merge this article now, as even the Pakistani community in the USA, Canada, Australia and even Norway have an article, the UK has the largest Pakistani community in the Western World, and this really should be noticed. Thank you Stevvvv4444 18:59, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
- Hi, thanks to BK2006 and Stevvv for your comments, which explain things well. I can certainly see that the best solution would be to turn British Asian into a shorter page that links to British Indian and British Pakistani. At the moment, the situation is bizarre ('British Asian' but no British Indian), so it would be nice if someone could sort out this muddle. (Not sure I want to do it myself as I'm not Asian and it seems like it's a minefield...!) Cop 663 (talk) 21:50, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
- Well agreeing with the above, as the British Asian community is so diverse, I will remove the merge notice .......
- Pahari Sahib 20:29, 8 January 2008 (GMT)
Developing the Article
Okay well we really need to start adding information to the article, as of now it just looks like a lot of links and numbers. I don't know if their is already a pattern you follow within the British Articles, but the overseas Pakistani articles generally have this pattern:
1. History in Britain For the most part it's the same as British Asian, they all came around the same time (during the 70s and 80s), so their isn't much work to do their. However I could use some sources, if anyone could help me find some that would be very much appreciated.
a. Integrating into British society As much as all of us would love to sugar coat this, sadly integration of Pakistanis in the UK has not gone as planned for both parties and I think we need to mention that, plus the reasons behind it. I personally don't know the reason, does it have something to do with the UK's immigration policies, the community itself? Both sides need to be addressed.
2. Demographics I've only got a rough estimate from a few cities, but remember we're talking about the WHOLE UK, so I'm assuming that includes Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland as well.
3. Languages Simply it's English with any of the languages spoken in Pakistan, being that most of the Pakistanis in the UK are from Kashmir I'd suspect they speak Kashmiri, Hindko and Potwarhi. Again confirmation and sources would be nice.
4. Religion Surprisingly I found out that Pakistanis in the UK are pretty diverse, and includes a large Sikh and Hindu population, which should be mentioned, along with the Christian and Parsee populations. Islam is the dominant one so we should put a bit more emphasis on that.
5. Economics Again no need to sugar coat it, we need to face the facts. Pakistanis don't make much in the UK, and I'm refering this from the source given from the British Asian article. I don't have the sligtest clue about the economics of British Pakistanis, so someone is going to have to write it up or at least help me.
6. Events & Gatherings Again, I wouldn't know, all I know is that they're plenty of melas (festivals) that happen around Eid and August 14th. We could also add a little about Green Street.
7. Media Generally speaking about Pakistani media within the UK, which would include any movies/tv serials made for or on Pakistanis. Also could talk about television channels/shows which air and originate from the UK to the British Pakistani population or even abroad (as in the case for DM Digital TV). We can also add things about radio (BBC Asian Network for example).
8. List of British Pakistanis I'll start a list, because we have more than 100 well known British Pakistanis.
BK2006, 11/01/2008 12:59 (UTC)
Fair use rationale for Image:Shah LD.jpg
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BetacommandBot (talk) 05:17, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
Requested move
- The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the proposal was no consensus to move. JPG-GR (talk) 23:05, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
Pakistani British → Pakistani Briton — For consistency with List of Pakistani Britons; also see List of Greek Britons, List of Italian Britons, etc. It seems bizarre to me that the parent articles of these aren't consistent; is there any consensus I've missed on this? If not I'm supporting the above change. (As there's a redirect with history at Pakistani Briton, a requested move to be approved by an admin is required if this suggestion is accepted.) —AllynJ (talk | contribs) 18:07, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
Survey
- Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with
*'''Support'''or*'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Misplaced Pages's naming conventions.
- Oppose. There is an ongoing project to replace the "** Briton" formula (which is rarely encountered outside Misplaced Pages) with the terms that people actually use (see here). To be fair, the term "Pakistani Briton" does seem to be used occasionally outside Misplaced Pages, but you'd need to demonstrate that it is commoner than "Pakistani British". Is it? Cop 663 (talk) 12:15, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
- Oppose. British Pakistani is the more common term, which this article should be moved to. It's the same with British Chinese. There is inconsistency in the naming of ethnic classifications, but it's not something Misplaced Pages should be attempting to change. -- zzuuzz 16:28, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
Discussion
- Any additional comments:
Why was British Pakistanis moved to Pakistani British in the first place? While Pakistani can both be an adjective and a noun, British is just an adjective. British Pakistanis is the more common term, just like British Greeks is more common than Greek Britons (never mind Greek British). Moving it to Pakistani Briton would make more sense - as the current title seems incomplete "Pakistani British <add noun here>". It seems the article was moved in an effort to standardise article titles (e.g. Pakistani Canadian), even if this flew in the face of the English language itself. Seems a little odd that's all :-) Pahari Sahib 16:12, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
Discrimination
there should definately be a section about discrimination the racist word "PAKI" was pioneered in britain after all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.162.66.244 (talk) 18:35, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
Genetic disorders/first cousin marriages
Consanguinity and Cousin couple mention facts about the prevalence of close-relative relationships in the British Pakistani community and the corresponding increase in genetic disorders. Include in this article?
- A BBC report found that Pakistanis in Britain, 55% of whom marry a first cousin, are 13 times more likely than the general population to produce children with genetic disorders, and that one in ten children of cousin marriages either die in infancy or develop a serious disability. Thus Pakistani-Britons, who account for some 3% of all births in the UK, produce "just under a third" of all British children with genetic illnesses.
Is what I'm referring to. 70.21.38.226 (talk) 01:08, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
Requested move
- The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the proposal was move. JPG-GR (talk) 01:32, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
Pakistani Briton → British Pakistanis — 'British Pakistanis' is a commoner term than 'Pakistani Britons'. Googling (with Misplaced Pages filtered out) brings up 3,000 hits for "Pakistani Britons", 8,000 for "Pakistani British" while "British Pakistanis" gets 14,000. See also the discussion above. — Cop 663 (talk) 16:47, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
Survey
- Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with
*'''Support'''or*'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Misplaced Pages's naming conventions.
- Support a move to British Pakistani for the above reasons and Misplaced Pages:NC#Prefer_singular_nouns. It is by far the most common term (56,000 Ghits in singular form). -- zzuuzz 17:07, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
- Oppose, Hi Cop 663, I believe the best title for this article that won't cause any controversy or confusion is British people of Pakistani descent, not British Pakistani or Pakistani British. Stevvvv4444 (talk) 17:58, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
- This one seems like an open-and-shut case and would follow the policy WP:COMMONNAMES. Cop 663 (talk) 20:01, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Discussion
- Any additional comments:
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
Unsourced Statements
This article is rife with a lack of citations coupled with numerous bold assertions. The entire history section lacks any citation. The intergration of Pakistani Punjabis section also lacks any cites while asserting that Punjabis were better intergrated than Mirpuris. Moreover the article casts certain groups of Pakistanis (Mirpuris) as failures while others (Punjabis) as being their betters. Ironic in that the original authors intent for creating this article was to counter the perception that British Pakistanis were failures comapred to British Indians.
```` —Preceding unsigned comment added by Digitalcntrl (talk • contribs) 02:21, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
Lack of depth
I suppose I cannot complain to much because of lack of independent study of this community.
"and a few Hindus and Sikhs throughout some communities."
While it may be true that there are many British Hindus & Sikhs who can trace their origins to the part of the Punjab that is now Pakistan, they're almost always going to identify themselves as Indian or Punjabi. Find me a Brit who identifies themselves as a "Pakistani Hindu" or a "Pakistani Sikh" and I'll show you a gorilla that can play golf. Jamieli (talk) 14:33, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
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