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Revision as of 08:16, 11 November 2008 edit76.103.243.116 (talk) →Deletion← Previous edit Revision as of 15:19, 11 November 2008 edit undoZafarnamah (talk | contribs)269 edits vote for deletionNext edit →
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I think we should change the name to Sikh Fundamentalism, as calling it extremism seems POV to me, and it can't really be called terrorism as there hasn't been any in recent memory, and that would fall under Punjab Insurgency more. Thoughts? ] (]) 00:10, 11 November 2008 (UTC) I think we should change the name to Sikh Fundamentalism, as calling it extremism seems POV to me, and it can't really be called terrorism as there hasn't been any in recent memory, and that would fall under Punjab Insurgency more. Thoughts? ] (]) 00:10, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
:I think we should ''merge'' the article in ] article. Also as someone has provided google books link above, it becomes pretty clear that the subject is treated as only as sub-heading under ] or ] movements, by scholars and historians alike. It does not have international parameters and is part of Punjab Insurgency of 80's and 90's, barring a single air-plane bobmbing that too involved Indian nationals and ]. Also, as earlier pointed out, the term "Sikh Extremism" is a dead rat, see a search on google news returns a paltry 28 results and majority still end up talking about 'Hindu Terror'. Compared to Hindu Extremism which returns a whopping 689 results . Wow. ] (]) 03:25, 11 November 2008 (UTC) :I think we should ''merge'' the article in ] article. Also as someone has provided google books link above, it becomes pretty clear that the subject is treated as only as sub-heading under ] or ] movements, by scholars and historians alike. It does not have international parameters and is part of Punjab Insurgency of 80's and 90's, barring a single air-plane bobmbing that too involved Indian nationals and ]. Also, as earlier pointed out, the term "Sikh Extremism" is a dead rat, see a search on google news returns a paltry 28 results and majority still end up talking about 'Hindu Terror'. Compared to Hindu Extremism which returns a whopping 689 results . Wow. ] (]) 03:25, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

== Misguided Essentialism - Vote for Deletion of the article ==

The title of this article is essentializing an entire community of roughly 25 million Sikhs with the label "extremism" or "fundamentalism". If you want to be accurate and precise, which should be the goal in any scholarly endeavor, then, first define what you mean by extremism and then provide specific instances of that behavior by specific individuals and/or groups. Calling an entire community extremists is a bit extreme in my view. This is a new dialectic in the George Bush regime to use categories such as these to label entire communities, which include children who don't even understand their import. I strongly support the deletion of this article. Articles should be written on specific individuals and groups to describe how they conduct themselves--"Sikh extremism" or "Sikh fundamentalism" is too broad a brush with which to malign an entire community. Let's first delete this article and then focus on specifics not generalizations since they always hurt innocent people. ] (]) 15:19, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Revision as of 15:19, 11 November 2008

Let's keep the comments clean and civil from now on. Here are my suggestions. From now onwards, before making changes, vocalize them here and gain consensus. Add your suggestions under the banners below:--Flewis 12:58, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Current Article Problems

Current problems

{State any problems you find with the article here}
Singling out a single community for acts that are identified in other and proper articles such as Khalistan and Punjab Insurgency is wrong. These movements did not enjoy full support of all members of the community, therefore to label it with the name 'Sikh' makes it look as if all Sikhs are extremists. Moreover many acts of extremism by Sikh groups involve Hindu groups, as an opponent or adversary. Therfore blame shouldn't be laid squarley on a single group, Hindu or Sikh.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.96.173.151 (talk • contribs)

Suggestions

{Suggest a way in which the article can be improved}
Lets rename the article to 'religious extremism in indian communities'. Then add Hindu, Sikh, Muslim and even Maoists in India who are getting invloved in religious fundamentalism. Plus how elections in India have been fought upon religious ideologies. The Anti-Sikh riots preceding 1985 general elections, 2002 Gujrat elections before general elections, babri demolition etc. And how a set pattern of public opinion is reflected in elections inspired by 'organised violence' against a single community.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.96.173.151 (talk • contribs)

As I mentioned previously: Sikh extremism is not specifically limited to India and hence warrants a separate article. For India-specific insurgencies see Terrorism in India --Flewis 14:31, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Sources

{Add any external Reliable sources here}
A search on google news.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.96.173.151 (talk • contribs)

Article should be deleted

{State your rationale here if you think this article must be deleted in the case that no sources can be found. Only do so, if you believe this article is hopeless and can not be improved in any way}
In it's current state the article is definitly hopeless and should be deleted.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.96.173.151 (talk • contribs)

Delete: Its a community singling out attempt and stinks of propaganda. The attempts at article show amplifications of single events to trigger prejudice against a single community or to reflect that a particular problem is not limited to a particular society but to all of the societies; something like saying - "Oh, its not just me, everybody is doing it". Its one of the worst kind of propaganda that I've come across on wikipedia. This is hopeless case where finding NPOV sources to the claims put by article starter (whose first interest on Misplaced Pages is starting this article?) is impossible. --RoadAhead 19:16, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

This is not the way to decide if an article should be deleted or not. If you really think the article should be delete see Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion for how to go about this. DJ Clayworth (talk) 17:09, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Deletion

I have a real problem with the sources used for this article. Third Party, inuedo, and non credible sources. Linking the "Pickled Politics" site a discussion forum is hardly a verifiable source. All sources used should at least have an ISBN number. This article is like using David Irving to say the holocaust never existed. I have added in refrences and am taking out no verifiable refrences. --Sikh-history (talk) 13:08, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Andrew Gilligan is a very respectable journalist, according to you, anyone saying anything on the issues of Sikh terrorism is not credible

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard-mayor/article-23479477-details/Ken%27s+adviser+is+linked+to+terror+group/article.do

The same is true for Kim Bolan

http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/story.html?id=2f865541-92ec-4be7-8b61-1482904451f8

Satanoid (talk) 22:19, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Rather than sending this straight to deletion, would you be willing to re-write the article without the NPOV slant - and only include established sources? As distasteful as this subject may be to some editors, I see no reason why this article could not be written in a neutral, encyclopedic fashion. --Flewis 13:24, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
Rather we should re-name the article as 'Extremism in India' or 'Religious fundamentalism in Indian communities' and have Hindu extremism, Muslim extremism and Sikh extremism as sub-sections. The extremist activities of Hindus (an everday affair nowdays as per news reports) and Muslims and Sikhs should be mentioned collectivly as to how Fundamentalist activities are part of Indian set-up. Moreover the involvement of 'state officers' from armed forces in pursuance of Hindu extremist activities are widely reported in established newspapers. If you move the article, reliable sources can be used for defining religious fundamentalism in India and Indian communities out of India. This is more plausible option. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.96.173.151 (talk) 13:39, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
Sikh extremism is not specifically limited to India and hence warrants a separate article. For India-specific insurgencies see Terrorism in India --Flewis 14:14, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
Hey, I've been invited here to put in my thoughts. I think that if the article can be fixed so it's reliable, then let's keep it. If there's too much edit warring and no helpful editing, then let's delete it. 1. The title should change to possibly fundamentalism like it is for the Islam fundamentalism and Christian fundamentalism pages, or a specific name for it like Hindu fundamentalists are Hindutvas. Also change it to be NPOV, using reliable sources and all that good stuff.
But I don't know. As Sikh fundamentalism would fall under the Khalistan Movement, and Punjab Insurgency. In that case, this article should be deleted and those articles should be improved upon. Deavenger (talk) 19:07, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
I have no objection to articles about extremism in Sikhism, but let us keep it in perspective. Has this article been created in Good Faith? Let us used verifiable sources rather than blogs, extremist websites and third hand journalist sources. I want to see studies from Professors from UK, America and India.--Sikh-history (talk) 00:12, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
Yeah. There should be articles about extremism in Sikhism like any other religion. But the thing is, there are other articles like the Khalistan movement or Punjab insurgency, which is basically Sikh extreminism anyway. So, is this article actually necessary as there are other articles there for this instead.
Also, do you think Khustwant Singh should be used? Deavenger (talk) 03:11, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
Khushwant Singh is not reliable source for Punjab related issues as he has not written any respectable account of the times. During the movement times, Khuswant Singh was the one who would travel along with K. P. S. Gill in his gypsy and so he kept saying the police is right in their custodial and fake encounter deaths perhaps because he was "obligzed". Later, after reading the reaseach work Reduced to Ashes (book) he changed his stance and wrote ""It is spine-chilling.... Well, Mr Gill, it is not rubbish; you and the Punjab police have quite a few awkward questions to answer". --RoadAhead 04:35, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
I also agree with the majority decision so far, that this article should be deleted. User talk:Deavenger is right, we already have articles Khalistan movement, Punjab insurgency or Behzti etc dealing with this information, those articles can be improved. Also, B.Raman and Khuswant Singh etc are not reliable sources on this matter. B.Raman is famous for his Anti-Sikh hate articles in India. --Irek Biernat (talk) 18:30, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Let me remind everyone again that deletion is not decided here. If you really think the article should be deleted, go to Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion. DJ Clayworth (talk) 18:42, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

I have to agree with Flewis on this, its a stupid idea to classify it as Indian Terrorism since India is itself the target of fundamentalist terrorist groups. (No prizes for guessing that one folks) and Yes, Sikh terrorism does exist outside of India as the bombing of Air India Flight 182 killing 329 Air passengers shows, and not forgetting the banned Sikh terrorist organizations by EU/US and Canadian Governments.

It seems as if anyone who disagrees with Sikh terrorism is a fundamentalist, I'd like to point out that....

Tags are being OVER used a POV graffitti on this article Judging by the amount of zeal on display, the article certainly warrants to remain and not be brushed under the carpet

Satanoid (talk) 22:04, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Delete - Reason is because Sikh extremism or whatever name you choose for it, occurs within the parameters of Khalistan movement. It does not extend beyond that. And a search on google books make that clear that the subject is treated as a sub-section under Khalistan and or Punjab Insurgency, by scholars and historians alike. 117.96.144.140 (talk) 03:26, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Respected User Talk: 117.96.144.140, as User talk:DJ Clayworth has already explained that this article can not be deleted by giving our Delete votes over here. We need to go to Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion. Please save your vote and follow this article. --76.103.243.116 (talk) 08:16, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

News Article and Website Links Should be Removed

I have been checking the website links and links to newspaper articles, and have come to the conclusion they are mostly sensationalist. They should be removed and only verifiable sources added given the delicate nature of the subject. There is a lot of FBI said this, or so and so organisation said this, but what of the facts?--Sikh-history (talk) 17:14, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Previous discussion

This article is one of the worst I have seen in Misplaced Pages in a long time. It reads like a news report; it is relevant only to a very small part of the subject it claims to cover. Parts of it are copied verbatim from other places on the web, and others are copied with only minor changes. It voilates NPOV. DJ Clayworth (talk) 22:44, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Hi, it is based on fact and not POV hence the number of well sourced references. The content is not the issue here but the style is.

To Singh6. This article is not POV as you suggest, its simply dealing with the issues surrounding religious fundamentalism no one is suggesting all Sikhs are extremist, but some may well be- its s fact of life.

I will stress again, that bullying admins into removing subjects surrounding religious fundamentalism is not in the interest of free speech or Misplaced Pages. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Satanoid (talk • contribs) 12:42, 9 November 2008 (UTC)


The fact is there is not a single terrorist attack on national or international scale by any Sikh extremist group in near memory. The bombing of Air India belongs in Khalistan and Punjab Insurgency articles. There is no point in simply starting a seperate article for a single terrorist attack. And throwing in hotch-potch of minor threats by some fundamentalist protesting group does not deserve an article either. And Jagat Narain was NOT an investigative journalist, he was OWNER of a newspaper group and a prominent politician and was Arya Samajist. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.96.173.151 (talk) 13:31, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
The style is a serious problem, but the content is also a problem (though to be fair it is better than when I wrote the above). Let's fix both. DJ Clayworth (talk) 16:21, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Let's try to make this a featured article

Sikh extremism and Hindu terrorism and valid topics and should not be deleted under pressure from self-rightous religious extremists.

Here a list of sources that can be used to shape this article into a featured article:

Punjab Trauma can provide very useful material on this topic.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.164.100.127 (talk) 14:42, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Tell the Truth

I believe that not fight or quarrel like children but only write or say what's really true and bring it forth so then afterward a decision could be made which would be the best and most unbiased possible. Wjkk20 —Preceding undated comment was added at 19:58, 9 November 2008 (UTC).

Use of tags

Use of irrelevant tags by orthodox Sikhs to make this article look bad is disturbing.

  • The article doesn't use primary sources. It uses third-party sources from US, UK and Canada.
  • 14 footnotes are enough.
  • It is already wikified
  • etc.

Also, some tags were repeated. For example, {{articleissues}} includes factual accuracy disputed and orphan (internal links missing). So, separate tags are not needed for these.

So I've removed the irrelevant tags. Now I'd like to ask what "factual accuracy" is disputed in this version - every sentence is referenced? What context is missing? What is essay-like about the article? If these tags are not removed, let us file an RfC or go for mediation. 59.164.105.254 (talk) 16:50, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Please Sign Your Contributions

Hi everyone. Clearly there are a not of new editors here. Please make absolutely sure you sign whatever you write on talk pages by adding four tildes at the end of what you write, like this ~~~~. The tildes will be expanded to you username, plus the time and date. Please do this even if you are editing anonymously. DJ Clayworth (talk) 16:19, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

AfD challenge

I challenge people who've supported deletion of this article in the #Deletion section above to nominate this article for deletion. The article is well sourced and the topic is valid.

Waheguru is witnessing us all. Those who misinterpret the Gurus' teachings and support terrorists and extremists will get their due. Sat Sri Akaal. 59.164.105.254 (talk) 16:58, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

59.164.105.254 that can be interpreted as a threat. You must not threaten other editors, even implicitly, and if you do so again you will be blocked from editing Misplaced Pages. DJ Clayworth (talk) 17:06, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
I didn't threaten to kill anybody. Did I? I'm just asking people to take the matter to AfD, because I know that their shallow arguments will be exposed. Sat Sri Akaal is a Sikh greeting, please educate yourself. 59.164.105.254 (talk) 17:14, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
Writing "Those who misinterpret the Gurus' teachings and support terrorists and extremists will get their due." can be taken as a threat. Do not write such things again. Feel free to talk about AFD as long as you refrain from writing anything that can be taken as a threat. It is a condition of editing Misplaced Pages that you are able to talk civilly to those who have differing opinions from yours. DJ Clayworth (talk) 17:20, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
Let me specify I wasn't pointing to any editors. I was referring to terrorists who have killed the innocent during the Punjab insurgency. I'm clarifying this and I am sorry if anybody was offended - I just want to contribute content here. I've lost my family members in violence by Sikh extremists and Hindu extremists in two different incidents, and I hate them both. I do not hate any editors involved here. 59.164.105.254 (talk) 17:25, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
Your sentence, "I've lost my family members in violence by Sikh extremists and Hindu extremists in two different incidents, and I hate them both" proved your POV standing. So you are working on wikipedia to spread your hate?--Irek Biernat (talk) 18:16, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

No it doesn't actually, just because someone hasn't had a family member killed killed by Sikh terrorism or Qaeda doesn't mean they have to be supported either. Satanoid (talk) 22:11, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Enough, please!. Let's not accuse people of anything here. And you may not use Misplaced Pages to express your hatred of any group, whether they are editors or not. Any more violations of Misplaced Pages:Civility will be met with blocks. DJ Clayworth (talk) 18:22, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Name Change

I think we should change the name to Sikh Fundamentalism, as calling it extremism seems POV to me, and it can't really be called terrorism as there hasn't been any in recent memory, and that would fall under Punjab Insurgency more. Thoughts? Deavenger (talk) 00:10, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

I think we should merge the article in Khalistan article. Also as someone has provided google books link above, it becomes pretty clear that the subject is treated as only as sub-heading under Punjab Insurgency or Khalistan movements, by scholars and historians alike. It does not have international parameters and is part of Punjab Insurgency of 80's and 90's, barring a single air-plane bobmbing that too involved Indian nationals and Khalistan. Also, as earlier pointed out, the term "Sikh Extremism" is a dead rat, see a search on google news returns a paltry 28 results and majority still end up talking about 'Hindu Terror'. Compared to Hindu Extremism which returns a whopping 689 results . Wow. 117.96.144.140 (talk) 03:25, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Misguided Essentialism - Vote for Deletion of the article

The title of this article is essentializing an entire community of roughly 25 million Sikhs with the label "extremism" or "fundamentalism". If you want to be accurate and precise, which should be the goal in any scholarly endeavor, then, first define what you mean by extremism and then provide specific instances of that behavior by specific individuals and/or groups. Calling an entire community extremists is a bit extreme in my view. This is a new dialectic in the George Bush regime to use categories such as these to label entire communities, which include children who don't even understand their import. I strongly support the deletion of this article. Articles should be written on specific individuals and groups to describe how they conduct themselves--"Sikh extremism" or "Sikh fundamentalism" is too broad a brush with which to malign an entire community. Let's first delete this article and then focus on specifics not generalizations since they always hurt innocent people. Zafarnamah (talk) 15:19, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

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