Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 16:03, 20 April 2008

Biography Stub‑class

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Misplaced Pages's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography Stub This article has been rated as Stub-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. This article has been automatically rated by a bot or other tool as Stub-class because it uses a stub template. Please ensure the assessment is correct before removing the |auto= parameter.

Crime and Criminal Biography Stub‑class Low‑importance

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Crime and Criminal Biography articles on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Crime and Criminal BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyCrime-related Stub This article has been rated as Stub-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Crime and Criminal Biography Stub‑class Low‑importance

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Crime and Criminal Biography articles on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Crime and Criminal BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Crime and Criminal BiographyCrime-related Stub This article has been rated as Stub-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Note the following paragraph (from the version i saw on sept 18 2005) is probably very true but POV. It should be rephrased. Anti-gun forces shrewdly targeted the looks of weapons hoping that the confusion would ban those types of weapons they felt were most dangerous. The end result was the now-expired Federal assault weapons ban which limited semi-automatic firearms to those which lacked certain military-style characteristics like flash suppressors, bayonet lugs, and pistol grips.

This is a discussion page, don't remove other's comments

Here are my comments that were removed:

(Note, I did not include the name of the Murderer. It is common for people to seek posthumous notoriety and infamy through their action. I feel it is appropriate to deny them that.--Asams10 18:03, August 19, 2005 (UTC)) --Asams10 00:11, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

Need NPOV

A critical guideline for Misplaced Pages is a Neutral Point of View. There is a lot of anti-gun control POV in this article and needs removal. Also, deleting the name of the perpetrator of this so-called Stockton Massacre or the school names is an Orwellian attempt to erase part of the historical record.

Moreover, this article is about the Stockton Massacre and not about the subsequent assault weapon bans. You (Asams10) mention that "The Stockton Massacre was the spark for gun control. It's like talking about the Boston Tea Party without reference to the American Revolution". Well, check out the Misplaced Pages article on the Boston Tea Party and you will see that it does mention the American Revolution (just as my revision mentions that "As a result, that same year, California passed the Roberti-Roos Assault Weapons Act that bans firearms similar to the one ***** used in his crime."). But the Boston Tea Party does not go into discussion of the American Revolution, much less discuss the justification for the Revolution.

If you must discuss the advisability of 'assault weapons' bans, then create or amend an article on that, but this article is about the Stockton Massacre.

Please wikify and NPOV-ify this article. Madman 16:06, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

First of all, it's not my article and neither is it yours. I didn't add all the NPOV rhetoric. The name of the Murderer is irrelevant without the balancing context of the names of the five victims of his murders. You put the scumbag's name in after you list the five murder victims' names, and I'd be cool with it. I'm not the revisionist, I was attempting to make relavant points. History is important in context. While I don't necessarily agree with the context presented and I'm not anti-gun myself, I leave it to somebody else to remove the anti-gun control rhetoric. But I think a thorough treatment of gun control needs to be included as this event was the spark if you ask people on both sides of the issue. --Asams10 17:10, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

This article needs revision

This article definitely does not meet the standards of Misplaced Pages. The two basic problems I see are that (1) you, Asams10, continue to purge the name of the perpetrator. This is against Misplaced Pages policy. Should we also delete articles on Adolf Hitler or John Wilkes Booth or Jim Jones? I would add the names of the victims if I had them, but am unable to locate them. That should not prevent us from naming Patrick Purdy as the perpetrator.

Second, the discussion of the advisability and intent of the subsequent 'assault weapons' ban or a "thorough treatment of gun control" does not belong here, despite the fact that the so-called Stockton Massacre was one of the triggering factors in the ban (see my discussion of the Boston Tea Party, above).

Since you, Asams10, seem unwilling to make any changes to the article, I will suggest that we delete the article entirely. In particular, the name 'Stockton Massacre' is to a large extent a loaded phrase itself and is apparently not in wide use (e.g. Google shows only 248 references).

The bottom line, though, is that this article as written violates Misplaced Pages conventions and needs editing or outright deletion. Madman 05:29, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Okay, delete it then. This is really a minor footnote in the history of multiple murders. The reason I'm unwilling to allow anybody to name the murderer is because nobody is naming the victims! John Wilkes Boothe killed Lincoln, right? Who has a greater place in history. Had John Wilkes Boothe killed somebody less important, we wouldn't care, eh? Adolph Hitler is not in the same class as either Booth or the nutcase we're talking about. MadMan, you and I obviously disagree, however it's not Me that wrote the article. I think any article that lists a murderer should also list his victims. Here's what would be nice. Put a nice bio on each of the victims. Songs they liked, favorite foods, hopes, dreams etc. Then print a bio of the monster that committed these crimes as a contrast.--Asams10 06:44, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

• I think the article should definitely be cleaned up and expanded. Purdy's name has to be cited. It's a matter of public record and is already in our Stockton, California, School massacre and Mass murder articles. Talk about the victims also, as well as the aftermath of the crime. -- JJay 05:11, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

some cleanups

Per the 3 tags on the this article, made some major edits.

• Removed some of the detailed material in the "Repercussions" (formerly "Aftermath") section about discussion of assault weapons etc. I think this getting too far outside what should be the scope of the article, but that's not the main reason. The main thing is, this is discussed in the article assault weapons in a lot more detail, and also in the article on the Federal law that was passed, and elsewhere. You don't want the same material floating around in peripheral articles like this, because then you can end up with all different versions. Better to keep it at least somewhat centralized, with links.
• There was some stuff earlier on the talk page about not putting in the name of the perpetrator? C'mon, seems pretty clear that if the event was notable the person who did it should at least be named. (Look at it this way -- why should he get off the hook? Everybody else has to bear responsibility by name for their actions.) I guess it would be OK to add the victim's names too, but I can't find them.
  • I spent some time looking for the victims' names as well, to no avail. I am wondering whether it might have something to do with their ages. Madman 21:33, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
• After my edits, I removed the POV and Wikify and Cleanup tags, I hope that meets the standards of the original tagger, if not, sorry, by all means restore them. Probably if it needs a tag at all IMO it should be the Expand tag. It DOES need expansion -- What time did this occur? What was Purdy's previous history? Where did he get the rifle? Does anybody know if he had some connection with the school, did he hate kids, or was it just random? What exactly was wrong with him? The PLO stuff -- did he have some real interest or connection with that or was he just nuts? -- but I don't have that info. Herostratus 08:02, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
  • Good job, Herostratus! I'm the one who added the NPOV tag and this article certainly meets my standards (in fact, it's better than my attempt back to address NPOV/Wikify/Cleanup back in December). Many thanks. Madman 21:27, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Glorifying the Murderer

I'm not a revisionist, but it's absolutely revolting that the name of the murderer is listed while the names of his victims is omitted. I will continue to remove the name until somebody comes up with a list of the victims to print. Funny, it's really hard to find that list. It is as if NOBODY cares who the victims are, they just feel good about themselves reveling in the fact that evil weapons were banned and those poor HUMAN BEINGS who died were nameless martyrs? Patrick Purdy has become a HERO of the anti-gun movement and some justice is due here. If you're trying for historical accuracy, list all of the players.--Asams10 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks to the poster who added the names of the victims. I think overall the article is much more appropriate at this time.--Asams10 19:42, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Regarding "Ironically..." at end of article

Hi Asams10. Regarding this sentence at the end of the article:

Ironically, neither California's Roberti-Roos Assault Weapons Act nor 
the Federal assault weapons ban would have prevented Purdy from legally  
purchasing the weapon he used to commit his crime.

Well, a couple of points:

1) I really do think that for such a short article it's getting off the point too quickly. If it was a much longer article, maybe it would be OK. I think it'd make sense to have more detail on the actual event and on Purdy, if the article is to include more info. (Herostratus)

• While there could very likely be more data added about Purdy, Herostratus, I'm not sure that it's necessary. There is a consensus that the Stockton Massacre was the trigger (so to speak) for both the Roberti-Roos Assault Weapons Act and the Federal Assault Weapons Ban (particularly the former), so it's important to mention those, as you did so well in your rewrite. And I believe it is also important to point out that the "fix" imposed by legislators would not have fixed the problem that prompted the fix. And, from a purely technical viewpoint, this brings a nice symmetry to the article: subject, repercussions, back to the subject. Madman 14:25, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

2) Also, I think we'd certainly need a source. My understanding of the Federal law is that certain guns were banned by model name. So why wouldn't Congress have included the model name of Purdy's gun? So I'm not saying you're wrong but it seems odd, do you have a good source?

3) And, if what you wrote is true, it kind of leaves it hanging as to why Congress did that. Was it because of a typo in the law or some other dumb oversight like that (in which case, I guess that's an interesting bit of trivia but getting that much further away from the massacre, and doesn't that belong under the article on the law). Or was there some kind of lobbying/shenanigans so that Congress's intent was subverted (in which case, that's important, but doesn't that also belong in the article on the law). (Herostratus)

• Frankly, I don't think it's up to us to speculate on why the eventual bans would not have prevented the Purdy from purchasing his gun. IMHO, you touch on the answer when you mention the "struggle" to ban "assault weapons" without banning semi-automatic hunting rifles. But again, that is (to quote you) "getting that much further away from the massacre" Madman 14:25, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

4) As I said before, I don't think it's a great idea to tag stuff about the Federal law onto articles like this, because it leaves information just hanging about. The public reaction, sure, but not getting into details of the law.

Comments? Herostratus 06:20, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Well, yes, I have a good source. I'm a federally licensed firearms dealer and I deal with this law every day. Purdy could have purchased the weapons even during the Clinton ban because the guns were grandfathered. Oregon had only the Federal ban to deal with. The guns were STILL available in Oregon during that time. I know, I was there. So were the guns. Purdy was neither an individual adjudicated mentally ill nor was he committed to a mental institution. He'd plea bargained 7 felonies down to Misdemeanors and, therefore, even today would have been permitted to purchase that weapon... Brady Bill, Lautenberg Ammendment, Clinton Ban, Roberti-Roos ban, etc. It's one of those sick ironies. Those laws were enacted in the name of justice for those killed by Purdy and others and yet those same laws would not have prevented him from LEGALLY purchasing the rifle he used. Besides that, what law would have prevented him from killing if he wanted to? He was killing... isn't that against the law also? The proper analogy is to burn the wagon when it throws a wheel and kills its rider. It's the person behind the gun and any law that doesn't address that person is worthless to prevent crime.

My source? Title 18 USC Chapter 44 and Title 26 USC Chapter 53. Remember, California law don't mean squat here because he bought the gun in Oregon, a contiguous state. Sure, it would have been illegal to drive across the border with the gun if the laws were intact, but he was bent on mass murder, now, wasn't he?--Asams10 08:51, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Herostratus, I do like the article as is presently written. I believe it is very NPOV and lays out the facts of the case in a succinct, professional manner. This is a particularly notable achievement since gun-control is such a POV subject. I would vote to leave it as is. Madman 14:25, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Welllll... you make good points, so OK, let it stay. How about a couple of very minor changes:

From this

Ironically, neither California's Roberti-Roos Assault Weapons Act nor the Federal assault weapons ban would have prevented Purdy from legally purchasing the weapon he used to commit his crime.

To this

(Utlimately, though, loopholes in both California's Roberti-Roos Assault Weapons Act and the Federal assault weapons ban assured that neither would have prevented Purdy from legally purchasing the weapon he used to commit his crime.)

I'm suggesting putting in "loopholes" (refers to the grandfathering) so the reader is not left totally hanging wondering "why?". I thought the parens just help set if off a bit, more like formatting thing. And "Ironically" is not quite right -- its often misused, I always have to look it myself. (Now THIS is irony) Is "loopholes" an OK word to use here do you think?

These are all pretty minor, so you think we have a good-to-go here? Herostratus 17:14, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

They weren't loopholes. The word 'loophole' infers that there was some flaw in the wording of the law and that, had those flaws been corrected, he would not have been able to get the weapons used. This is untrue. The laws were flawed in their foundations. They presupposed that some guns are worse than others. One must take the position that Purdy, in the absense of a gun, would have not committed murder. Propane, gasoline, hatchets, rope for strangling, baseball bats, suffocation devices, kidnapping, torture, stabbing tools, drowning, etc. are all methods which are UNCONTROLLABLE and would still have been open. I don't like the word loopholes. The law is a loophole in that it does not address the criminal act, only one type of one tool possible to use in these murders.--Asams10 18:18, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm not wedded to the word "Ironically" (I myself inserted it), although I believe it a good description of the outcome: The event triggers legislation that supposedly addresses the event but doesn't. I suppose it would truly be irony if the legislation increased availability of weapons. I continue to like this final paragraph since it brings us back to the subject at hand. And the paragraph does need some sort of leading adverb (or is it an adjective?) -- we could use "In the end. . ." or "Ultimately, . . . " or some such more neutral word/phrase.

But certainly "loopholes" is a much less apt word, generally defined as "ambiguity" or "technicality". The reason that Purdy could have purchased his rifle even under the Federal Assault Weapons Ban is not due to any "ambiguity" or "technicality" but because the Congress ultimately decided not to ban that specific type of semi-automatic weapon. We can debate why they didn't -- but due to the fact that there are 535 members of Congress, it would be difficult to ascribe one motive to all of them. In the end, any analysis of the Federal AWB is too detailed to be discussed in this article and we can only (IMHO) state the outcome - that the AWB or California's R-R wouldn't have prevented Purdy from purchasing that weapon. Madman 20:20, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

OK.

The thing about "ironically"... it IS commonly used to mean "contrary to expectations" (or "by unfortunate coincidence"), and probably in another 10-20 years that will be standard; dictionaries are already starting to include that meaning. But technically, its meaning is narrower and hard to define but sort has has to include a "twist". Irony would be if a legislator who opposed the bill was killed by such a weapon, or if a legislator who supported the bill was killed because he didn't have access to such a weapon. Believe me, I can never remember this either and had to go look it up. I hate to be such a geek about it but other editors will come along anyway and change it.

It is semantics, I realize, but this is a classic case of irony. Those laws made in the name of Patrick Purdy and sparked by his murders would not have stopped him from doing the crime in the first place. It's like passing a law against suicide. Sure, you can all walk around shaking hands and congratulating yourself saying that blood will no longer run in the streets, but making it illegal, by its very definition, won't stop suicide. That's irony. Making a law in the name of preventing "A" from happening again, when, if the law had been in effect, "A" would still have happened. I think that it's a good word but perhaps another phrasing should be used.--Asams10 16:45, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes OK I see that "loopholes" is not an appropriate term. I did question that myself. OK, I'll go along with your version, just changing "Ironically" to "As the laws were written". That change is so minor that I'm going to go ahead and post it, assuming its OK with you; but if it's not, by all means revert and get back to me here. I'm posting this:

(As the laws were written, though, neither California's Roberti-Roos Assault Weapons Act or the Federal assault weapons ban would have prevented Purdy from legally purchasing the weapon he used to commit his crime.)

Yes I know that gun control laws are a very contentious issue. I do appreciate your willingness to engage on the issue. I hear what you're saying, that any politically and constitutionally possible ban on automatic weapons is always going to fail. (I guess another person could take the view that the law would've worked fine if it had included all automatic weapons and no grandfather clause (rendering all such weapons immediate contraband). Of course that would have been pretty draconian, and the people probably wouldn't have stood for it, and maybe not the Supreme Court either, but that's all speculation. "Politically possible" is a constantly changing unknown, what the Supreme Court will say is "Constitutionaly allowable" is a constantly changing unknown, and of course for whether a law "works" (produces a desirable outcome), you'll get a different answer from each person you talk to.

Interesting topic, but I think the answer is: I don't know. And neither do you (or anyone). It is not one of those things that can ever be answered completely, like a mathematical equation.

But I especially don't know the answer when I am editing Misplaced Pages. In fact, when I am editing Misplaced Pages, I don't care whether there even is an answer. I am only concerned with including verified facts or commonly-accepted analyses in as neutral a way as possible. Let people come to their own conclusions through perusing neutral research.

You've done a fine job editing, I have no complaints at all. It's just that a little warning bell goes off when I see a strong point of view expressed on a talk page. It's absolutely allowable, I just worry that strongly held views might leak into article space. Frankly, I was leery that you were wishing to include that final paragraph in order to make a subtle point, which is why I went round and round on this. But I am satisfied you have separated your opinions from your edits in good Wiki manner. Carry on! Herostratus 16:14, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one article was rated and this bot brought all the other ratings up to at least that level. BetacommandBot 04:41, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

"either ignorant of the fact that ..."

• "either ignorant of the fact that the weapon used was not an AK-47 or intentionally deceptive". This violates WP:NPOV and WP:OR. No sources are provided; it is the autor's own surmise. Therefore it is WP:OR. It ascribes an ulterior motive to Time magazine, therefore it is WP:NPOV. Ling.Nut (talk) 16:03, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

• Stub-Class biography articles
• Automatically assessed biography articles
• WikiProject Biography articles
• Stub-Class Crime-related articles
• Low-importance Crime-related articles
• WikiProject Crime and Criminal Biography articles