Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 18:11, 2 March 2008

Welcome to my talk page. Please take off your shoes at the entrance and have a seat. Tea will be served shortly. Please keep all comments here calm and polite. Among other things, I welcome politely-worded criticisms of my behaviour here. Calmly-expressed differences of opinion are also enjoyable to discuss. Questions about how to edit Misplaced Pages etc. are welcome, too -- or just to say hello or whatever, because I like getting messages.

One way to leave a message here is to click on the tab with a plus sign ("+") at the top of this page. Sometimes I reply here, sometimes on your talk page, etc.; feel free to let me know which you'd prefer.

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From Moonriddengirl

(From User talk:Moonriddengirl, 19:50 2 Dec 2007. The basic criterion in determining whether a text page is a candidate for CSD#G12 is that (a)it is copied from a website or other source that does not seem to be a copy of Misplaced Pages; (b) there is no non-infringing material on the page or in the history worthy saving; (c) the material was introduced all at once by one person, and (d) there is no credible assertion of public domain, fair use or free license. If it meets all of those criteria, then it's fair game for speedy. If it meets only some, it may require different handling. In those cases, it is certainly okay not to mark them for speedy, but to use {{copyvio|url=x}} (identifying the source). If you only suspect that an article is a copyright violation, it is handled differently, with the template {{cv-unsure}} being placed on the talk page of the article (not on the article itself). To do that, you place {{cv-unsure|~~~|2=http://en.wikipedia.org/fullurl}} on the talk page, replacing http://en.wikipedia.org/fullurl with the url of the page you suspect is a copyvio. (That permanently links the version you believe is a copyvio in the template, in case the article is later edited.)

Thanks

Thanks for your kind words, and for trying to help out on my Talk: page. Jayjg 03:15, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for gracing my talk page with your courteous reply. --Coppertwig (talk) 13:14, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks a lot dude! I've been trying to figure out how to make my signature work for 4 days! -- 224jeff6 23:02, 17 February 2008 (UTC) (It works yay!)

Thanks.

Thanks for the kind note Coppertwig. I greatly appreciate your balanced approach to editing, and look to you as a model for expressing ideas succinctly and without fanning flames.

I enjoyed reading your latest comments on Talk:Reproductive_rights. It's not just that we seem to agree on an edit, but you raised points that did not occur to me regarding much bolder questions than simply, "is this Misplaced Pages policy." You seemed to base much of your discussion on an idea that Misplaced Pages should not tell people what to think. I feel that way. I believe that idea is a driving force behind many of my issues with the Circumcision article, especially the current problem that the article excludes discussion of female circumcision, contrary to the definition of the word. By accepting the view, implied in the organization of that page, that circumcision means something done to the penis, full stop, we are making Misplaced Pages claim that this is the view we should have. Misplaced Pages is in effect saying, "References to female circumcision are errant, biased, or those of a tiny minority." That assertion is verifiably untrue. The organization of the article, and its lead paragraph, expresses a view not demonstrated to be held by an overwhelming majority (required by WP:NPOV), rather than presenting and attributing that notable view (that may be called for). The situation parallels, in my opinion, the phrase in Reproductive rights that said "reproductive rights are a subset of human rights," which we both seem to agree is unacceptable without qualifiers. The articles can't begin with a POV and then claim to have any value.

Forgive what may sound like a rant, but really the point is to ask you your opinion on this. I don't believe you commented in detail in that particular discussion. Anyway, regardless of whether you choose to discuss this with me, I generally appreciate your contributions and look forward to working with you further to improve WP. Blackworm (talk) 07:25, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

I appreciate your compliments, and don't mind this message at all. I suppose I'm more open to (slightly or more than slightly) tangential discussions on user talk pages than on article talk pages. By the way, I also type in two spaces after a period, though I don't think it makes any difference to how the displayed page looks. Possibly one could argue that it assists in editing by helping one find the beginnings of sentences in the wikitext. More later (I mean on your comment above, not necessarily on punctuation :-). --Coppertwig (talk) 13:36, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

I would say "Misplaced Pages should not tell people what to do". By its nature of providing information, Misplaced Pages is making suggestions as to what people might believe. I.e. after reading a Misplaced Pages article, people might believe that the statements they just read are true. This should be taken with a grain of salt, since the statements may be unsourced, or mere vandalism, etc., but nevertheless as I see it that's the whole purpose of Misplaced Pages: it's not just a game or a pastime, but something intended to be informative and useful. So, in a sense it's telling people what to think, or at least making suggestions as to how they might think. But only about fact-like statements. Not about normative statements such as statements containing the word "should".

As I see it, words have multiple meanings. The meanings are like electron clouds. That is, what is usually considered to be a single meaning is really, on close examination, a collection of meanings that are close to each other. Therefore no word has truly only a single meaning. Also, most words have several meanings that are quite distinct from each other. For example, "several" can mean "divided; not a unit; more than one" (my definition) and can therefore be emphasizing the plurality or largeness of a (smallish) number, i.e. the fact that it's greater than one or two; yet "several" can also be interpreted to mean practically the same as "few", which emphasises the smallness of the number, e.g. the fact that it's a lot less than a hundred. So in a sense it can be seen as having two opposite meanings. The meaning is usually clear from context.

Therefore, using a particular meaning of a word and making it clear from context that one is not using some other meaning of the same word is, in my opinion, a totally normal language activity and completely necessary in order to communicate at all.

As I see it, one very common meaning of "circumcision" is male circumcision, and another meaning is "male or female circumcision". Using the word according to one or the other of these definitions is, to me, normal use of language. Wiktionary and at least one source at www.dictionary.com gives male circumcision as one of the definitions (e.g. by including "penis" or "male" as part of the definition).

Using one definition of a word and not another definition of the same word, to me, does not imply that the other definition is wrong or should not be used. To me, if an article makes a statement as a sentence, it's saying it, but if the article uses a word a certain way, that is not equivalent to stating or implying "this word should only be used this way". It is also not equivalent to saying "This is the most common definition of this word". nor "people who use other definitions are in the (tiny) minority". A rare definition can be used, for example, in a context that calls for it. That in no way implies that it's anything other than a rare definition. For example, using the word "snow" to mean WP:SNOW in no way implies that the word doesn't usually mean cold white stuff. And on top of that, I don't think "male circumcision" is at all a rare definition of "circumcision": I think it's a very common definition, possibly the most common definition.

I've been meaning to argue at Talk:Circumcision for inserting the word "male" at the very beginning, just before "circumcision" appears in bold type, to make "Male circumcision is ..." but haven't gotten around to it. I wonder whether that would help at least a tiny bit in addressing your concerns. I guess what you want is to have one article, titled "circumcision", about both male and female circumcision. I'm not keen on that. For one thing, it would involve a lot of work and conflicts between editors etc. to work out the details. That may not be a valid argument against it. However, female circumcision is often called something else in the sources, e.g. "mutilation" or (more recently in vogue perhaps) "cutting". So perhaps having one article like that would not be the best way to represent the sources. Finally, for me and I think as for a lot of people, when I hear the word "circumcision" I think of male circumcision, just as when I hear "bird" I think first of a small, flying bird such as a starling, not an ostrich, penguin, wounded bird that can't fly, baby bird etc. even though those are also birds. So the current arrangement (including the disambiguation/navigation line at the top of the article) looks good to me.

Try looking at it this way: if you ask, what's the best thing to put in the "circumcision" article? to you, the answer is both male and female (while to some of the rest of us, the answer is not so clear); but if you ask, what is the best name for the article about female circumcision? the consensus that was worked out, based on sources presumably, is to call it not "circumcision" but "female genital cutting" -- which is how we arrive at the current arrangement. --Coppertwig (talk) 18:45, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your response. I'd like to address your points. I'll try to stay on topic and directly address your objections, and I understand that you may not have the time or desire to continue this discussion -- I won't take silence to imply agreement, nor insult.

I get the feeling you are arguing that there is a disagreement in lexicographical sources about the meaning of the word, "circumcision." I claim there is not. All the sources you mention, and the five dictionaries I mention (including Webster's, American Heritage, and Oxford English Dictionary), give both "meanings" in the way you seem to see "meanings" -- that circumcision is something done to males and something done to females. It pains me to hear you say "circumcision means male circumcision" -- you can't use the defined word in its own definition (without betraying POV, anyhow), and none of the sources do so. There are actually three distinct approaches these sources present -- each numbered "definition" appearing under the singular "circumcision" entry has one of three properties: (1) it is defined as applying only to males (e.g. "cutting off the foreskin"), (2) it is defined as applying only to females (e.g. a cross-reference to "FEMALE GENITAL MUTILATION" in Webster's, or Wiktionary's "excising tissue from the vulva"), and (3) that circumcision is something gender-neutral (e.g. "removal of the prepuce" or "removal of the foreskin in males and clitoris in females" (this property is shared by definition #1 of Websters and American Heritage dictionaries, and also WebMD and other non-lexicographical sources)). Take the time, for each dictionary source and numbered entry within each source, to determine which of these three properties hold for each sub-definition. At the end, how many will be in state (1)? How many in (2), and how many in (3)? What is the prominence of those entries with state (3)? Note that state (3) does not deny states (1) or (2), in fact it is inclusive of those definitions.

You say, "using one definition of a word and not another definition of the same word, to me, does not imply that the other definition is wrong or should not be used." I agree with that, but the issue here isn't what word we're using in conversation. We are presenting the definition of the word. We can't pick one definition of the word and deny other perfectly valid definitions -- nor have we any reason to. Can you defend that all lexicographical sources have a definition for "Circumcision" that includes practices done to females, but Misplaced Pages defines circumcision as something done only to males? You seem to wish to address this by adding "male" in the first word of the article, but this is an unacceptable solution. If the title of the article is "Circumcision" and not "Circumcision (male)" as I have proposed, then you have to define "circumcision," not "male circumcision" -- otherwise you leave the reader begging the question. Misplaced Pages's naming conventions clearly state this: "If a word or phrase is ambiguous, and an article concerns only one of the meanings of that word or phrase, it should usually be titled with something more precise than just that word or phrase ." You say you want to insert "male" as the first word of the article, but why is this necessary if a broader definition of circumcision is widely acceptable and available? Remember, there is no entry in a dictionary for "male circumcision" -- only "circumcision," defined as something done to males, females, or males and females. No lexicographical source defines it ONLY as something done to males. None. Misplaced Pages, right now, does.

Arguments regarding the difficulty in getting certain other editors to agree with this change, or based on the idea that such a change would destabilize the article, or be too much work, will definitely fall on deaf ears in my case.

You also seem to discuss based on a kind of gut feeling that circumcision just means male circumcision. I admit I have that feeling too -- but it isn't hard for me to analyze why that is. I grew up in a culture that circumcised a majority of all its newborn males, and absolutely none of its newborn females. I suspect the same is true for you. But look around you -- there are signs everywhere that this mindset concerning the word "circumcision" is strictly a Western phenomenon (and also more common among the young, under 30, who have been exposed to the UN/WHO's replacement of the word "circumcision" with the terms "FGM" and "FGC," for documented, specific advocacy purposes to which they freely admit). In my mind, the issue is similar to "breast cancer" -- the "breast cancer" ribbon is pink because breast cancer usually happens, in its instances, to occur to females, and pink is associated with things female in Western culture. When you think of breast cancer, you think of a woman. This is entirely normal. But it would not be acceptable to beging from that mindset and express it as justification for defining "breast cancer" as something happening in women. That's not what breast cancer means, nor is it even true that all the instances of breast cancer occur in females. That's why it's not done in the "breast cancer" article.

Another example is the word "suffrage." Think what "suffrage" means. Now think about what suffrage meant to the average Western male 150 years ago. Had Misplaced Pages existed back then, and you had existed back then, would you have been okay with Misplaced Pages saying, "Suffrage. This article describes male suffrage. For female "suffrage," see Suffragette. Suffrage (from the Latin suffragium, meaning "vote") is the civil right of men to vote, or the exercise of that right." Obviously POV, correct? Obviously discarding the meaning of the word to adhere to a specific POV? Well, that's how I feel about the "circumcision" article in its current form.

I hope the above hasn't seemed too adversarial, and I thank you for reading my comments. I look forward to your response, should you choose to do so. Blackworm (talk) 20:29, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

One more thing -- I neglected to respond to your last paragraph. I think the article "Circumcision" should properly define circumcision, reflecting the lexicographical and other sources and noting any reliable sources indicating published opinion of apparent disagreement therein. Then, it should briefly describe the context surrounding the male and female forms, as well as their prevalence. I believe it would merit a brief mention of Circumcision (capitalized, referring to the Christian feast of the same name, something the current "circumcision" article fails to do at all). It would merit a mention of Brit Milah, which to some is synonymous with circumcision. I believe it should have sections for "Male circumcision" and "Female circumcision." The former should have "Main article: Male circumcision" which would link to the current article entitled "circumcision," which would be renamed to "circumcision (male)." The female circumcision section would not have a similar link, because there is no main article on female circumcision. The text of the section could say, "Circumcision, in its application to females, is sometimes defined as, or alternately viewed as a subset of, female genital cutting." I believe the female circumcision section to would need to contain a brief statement contrasting circumcision of females to the UN/WHO-invented terms "female genital mutilation" and "female genital cutting," since the terms are verifiably not synonymous. All of this assumes, of course, that it could be written verifiably, backed by reliable sources, with views attributed to sources, and with a neutral point of view. I think it could be a new summary style article, less than 500 words long. As a start, however, it could be a simple disambiguation page, with links to "Circumcision (male)," "female genital cutting," "Brit Milah," and possibly also "Circumcision of Christ."

Your appeal to the apparent consensus regarding the naming of the female circumcision article is, in my opinion, missing the point that female genital cutting encompasses practices outside female circumcision, i.e., it is a superset of female circumcision. The correct name for a hypothetical female circumcision article, if one is indeed necessary because the content under "circumcision" would be too large, is "Female circumcision" or "Circumcision (female)." Female genital cutting, whether you accept the UN/WHO's definition or simply regard it as a simple English phrase to be interpreted as such, includes practices which are not circumcision. (That is why the current female genital cutting article also displays non-neutral POV in its first sentence, in my opinion.) I hope this answers your question. Blackworm (talk) 22:06, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Arbitrary section break

I don't have time for a full reply right now but hope to later. A few things. I think it would be fine to change the name of the article to "Circumcision (male)" and make Circumcision a redirect to it. I don't think a separate article at Circumcision is warranted. Misplaced Pages is not a dictionary. The organization of material into articles doesn't have to follow the way meanings are grouped into words lexicographically. The separate article you propose would have only two major sections -- not enough to justify another whole article which could become a POV fork and which would not be of good service to the reader in my opinion. The reader's experience, searching re (male) circumcision, would be of reading one article about circumcision and then, confusingly, finding another article also about (male) circumcision and repetitively reading much of the same introductory material. The feast of Circumcision seems to me to already be linked from the Circumcision article, with a link called "Circumcision of Christ".

Your comment above appears to me to be misquoting me where it says "It pains me to hear you say "circumcision means male circumcision" ". I didn't say those words and didn't mean them, and your message seems to be saying that I did. I would appreciate it ifyou would strike through that part of your comment. (Let's just say that this sort of thing that I see as misquoting bothers me maybe about as much as definitions that contain the word they're defining bother you. Usually those sorts of definitions bother me too but I see this as one of the valid exceptions. I'm pretty sure I've seen it done, validly in my opinion, in dictionaries.) I still intend to reply to what you're saying, when I have time.

I think we agree that the dictionaries are rather similar to each other and that many (or most or all) of them list a meaning referring to males only as one of several definitions, also listing other definitions that refer to females or to both male and female. My point is that if a meaning is listed as one of the definitions, then it's not wrong to use the word according to that meaning (except in the first sentence of the article, which acts as a definition).

Your proposal to insert "(male)" into the article title seems to me to be supported by policy, which says that article titles should be precise. I can see, however, that an argument (which I don't necessarily agree with, but may not strongly disagree with either) can be made that the current article title is also allowed and possibly even an argument that it's preferred, depending on usage statistics (e.g. "Plato" as a simple article title, even though there may be other articles about other things by that name, e.g. films or whatever.) --Coppertwig (talk) 23:03, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree with you that it's not true that "References to female circumcision are errant, biased, or those of a tiny minority". However, I don't see making use of a word according to one of its dictionary definitions as being equivalent to making such a statement. As I see it, the only problem is the first sentence, which can be interpreted as saying something about the word "circumcision" rather than only using the word.

By the way, I like getting talk page messages and am enjoying this exchange so don't worry.

You said, "I get the feeling you are arguing that there is a disagreement in lexicographical sources about the meaning of the word, "circumcision."". No, that's not what I'm arguing. The various dictionaries seem to generally give similar sets of definitions. What I'm arguing is that there exists at least one dictionary definition (i.e. one of several definitions given by the same dictionary, in at least one dictionary) that refers specifically to male (insert appropriate phrase here to avoid circular definition :-). I further argue that if one of the definitions in a dictionary is a certain meaning, then it's OK to use the word to express that meaning.

You said, you can't use the defined word in its own definition (without betraying POV, anyhow), and none of the sources do so. This reply of mine is getting further removed from the discussion, but here goes. Usually it really bugs me when people use the defined word in the definition. E.g. someone used the word "messaging" and my reply showed that I was understanding it wrong. They said something like, "No, that's not what we mean. We're talking about messaging." I asked what they meant by messaging and they said something like, "it's the ... messaging." (with a hand gesture indicating emphasis.) The reason that's inappropriate is that it fails to communicate (fails to get the message across?!) Usually, the word being defined should not be used in the definition because it leaves the reader still wondering what the word means. E.g. if someone were to say "A bloog is a small, useful bloog." Well, what the xxx is a bloog?

However, there are cases where it is appropriate to use the word in its definition. I'll invent an example. A dictionary might say, "Baseball: 1. A game, popular in North America, which uses a ball, bat and four bases. 2. The ball used in a game of baseball, which is small, round, and covered in sewn leather."

In the present instance, I'm talking to you and you already know what circumcision is, so I don't have to necessarily define the word from first principles every time. There may be things that need to be said about the details of the definition, but I can mention only those details (e.g. whether it's about males or both males and females autcetera) that I'm interested in talking about and not have to describe other details that you already know.

I don't understand why you say "without betraying POV". Maybe you mean that by using the word in its definition in the way I did, I'm admitting that the word can also be used to mean (insert appropriate phrase here to avoid circular definition) more generally, i.e. both male and female (insert appropriate phrase). I am admitting that. It's what the dictionaries show, so it seems to me to be verifiable fact, not a POV (and anyway, there's nothing wrong with having a POV IMO.)

You said, We are presenting the definition of the word. I think we're doing that, if at all, only in the first sentence, so only that sentence needs to be changed, by inserting "Male". Ah. As I see it, we're presenting a definition of the word, i.e. the definition intended by the usage in the article title -- not the only definition of the word, and not a list of all definitions of the word. For that, see Wiktionary.

If the title of the article is "Circumcision" and not "Circumcision (male)" as I have proposed, then you have to define "circumcision," not "male circumcision" -- otherwise you leave the reader begging the question. I don't agree. What question is the reader begging? If the reader wants a definition of a word, the reader should consult Wiktionary. The first sentence of a Misplaced Pages article is usually a definition or something similar to a definition, but it doesn't have to be a definition. All it has to do is make it very clear what the article is about.

For example, an article titled "N" might begin, "In chemistry, N is the symbol for the element nitrogen." and then go on to talk all about nitrogen and say nothing at all about the 14th letter of the alphabet or the set of natural numbers or any other perfectly good definitions of "N", except in a navigation line at the top of the article directing the reader to a disambiguation page. Misplaced Pages first sentences often include a phrase such as "In chemistry, ..." In effect, this tells the reader which of several definitions of N is being implied by the article title. Once you read "In chemistry, ...", you can look again at the article title and now understand it as being used to mean "nitrogen" and only "nitrogen" in this context, although the letter can mean other things when it's used elsewhere. To me, inserting "male" at the beginning of the sentence is very similar to saying "In chemistry...". Perhaps you would find it more acceptable if the word "male" is in parentheses. The function is to tell the reader which dictionary definition of "circumcision" is intended by the title of the article.

You quoted Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (precision) as saying "If a word or phrase is ambiguous, and an article concerns only one of the meanings of that word or phrase, it should usually be titled with something more precise than just that word or phrase ." Excellent point. That looks like a compelling argument to me. It also says "Name your pages precisely," although Jakew will point out that this is said under the heading "Philosophy" and therefore applies only to Philosophy articles. It also says, "Use Streets of London (song) and Streets Of London (computer game) instead of Streets Of London and Streets of London. " It does not say, "figure out which is more commonly mentioned, the song or the computer game, and name that page Streets of London and the other page Streets Of London (computer game)".

On the other hand, contrary to the above example, Misplaced Pages:Disambiguation says:

"For example, the article about Alexander the Great contains a disambiguation link to the 1956 film Alexander the Great:

For the film of the same name, see Alexander the Great (1956 film)."

In other words, since "Alexander the Great" the vast majority of the time refers to the man, not the film, the page about the man does not need a disambiguating phrase in parentheses in the article title. Demonstrating a lot of discussion about the film would not necessarily disprove that the vast majority of the time, people still mean the man. The question is: when people say "circumcision", do they mean male (insert phrase) often enough (e.g. vast majority of the time, or perhaps something definitely more than mere majority but not necessarily quite as much as vast majority) that the article title is justified in having only the unadorned word. I feel that in the case of this word, it's a grey area and/or I don't know enough about statistics of how the word is usually used in order to be able to answer that. (I also don't know exactly what Misplaced Pages's threshold is that would have to be used to decide one way or the other.)

You said, "You say you want to insert "male" as the first word of the article, but why is this necessary if a broader definition of circumcision is widely acceptable and available?" In order to clarify what the article is about. However, in light of the guideline you quoted, the article title should also have "(male)".

You said, "No lexicographical source defines it ONLY as something done to males." That may be. On the other hand, at least one, and I think several or possibly all, dictionaries define it as something only done to males. In other words, that is not the only definition they list for it, but that (something done only to males) is one of the definitions they list for it.

You said, "You also seem to discuss based on a kind of gut feeling that circumcision just means male circumcision." No, I don't believe that and I don't have that gut feeling. There's a subtle difference. "Circumcision" often means just male (insert phrase), but it doesn't "just mean" (i.e. only ever mean) male (insert phrase). When I think of a small black able-to-fly bird such as a starling in response to hearing the word "bird", I'm not expressing a gut feeling that ostriches are not birds -- I'm merely not thinking about ostriches right then, which is not at all the same thing.

You said, "But look around you -- there are signs everywhere that this mindset concerning the word "circumcision" is strictly a Western phenomenon..." Well, isn't the English language largely a Western phenomenon?

You give a good example re breast cancer and a very thought-provoking example re suffrage. I'll have to think about how to reply to that one.

What are the justifications for having a page named Circumcision as you describe (which links to Circumcision (male)), as opposed to simply having Circumcision being a redirect?

Re female genital cutting being a superset of female circumcision: I believe the phrase "female circumcision" is sometimes or often used to encompass all the practices covered in the FGC article. I'm not convinced that a separate article is warranted on only female circumcision, more strictly defined, and excluding coverage of other FGC. What are the reasons you support such an organization of the material?

First, thanks again for your response. I too am enjoying this discussion.

I apologize profusely for appearing to misquote you, and I have gladly struck those comments out. I think what I meant to say is what your words felt like to me, which I agree is not an excuse for using quotes and certainly not implying that you used a circular definition.

I want to absorb all this, and properly respond too. Unfortunately time will be at a premium for the next couple days. I'm glad you seem to enjoy my examples, especially. I want to respond in more detail, but I'll leave you with a prime example of an article that currently deals with a very similar conundrum properly, in my opinion: Castration. Now, obviously I'm not making any comparisons of circumcision and castration -- my point here is to show how a word with a similar structure of meanings given under each dictionary's definition, that is, one which applies to males (the overwhelmingly used form, in common usage), and one which applies to females. Look at the dictionaries -- the structure is the same. It is either defined neutrally, inclusively, or individually for males and females, with the male meaning being primary. Arguably, the case for the "primary meaning" (using Jakew's terminology here) being that of male castration is much stronger in those lexicographic sources, at least by the set of criteria I present above: the (exclusively) male definition is normally given as meaning (1) -- if you remember, I argue that the prominence of this exclusive meaning is less so for male circumcision. Now, given this context, does the "castration" page have a disambiguation page? Does it have a hatnote separating "female castration" out, since it's a separate meaning not widely used when someone is looking for "castration?" No. The article begins, "Castration (also referred as: gelding, neutering, orchiectomy, orchidectomy, and oophorectomy) is any action, surgical, chemical, or otherwise, by which a male loses the functions of the testes or a female loses the functions of the ovaries." Beautiful. It succinctly, and more importantly, generally defines the term. Per WP:LEAD, the lead must primarily establish context. What establishes context more? A more general definition, perhaps further qualified by caveats about common usage? Or a narrow definition, with a hatnote serving as a disclaimer, which excludes all subsequent discussion of another perfectly valid meaning of the word?

I simply cannot see the justification for the latter, should someone attempt to do so based on some of the arguments you present. Notably, I don't think the user experience comes into play to this level in an encyclopedia. Is Misplaced Pages a scholarly reference, or primarily entertainment? Expressed differently, are we primarily presenting what is verifiably true, or what people are looking to read about when they search? Perhaps this is an individual decision for Misplaced Pages editors, but in my opinion falls squarely on verifiability (and thus, Misplaced Pages's version of "truth") never being sacrificed to expediency -- the latter seeming to form part of your opposition (and, I note, both Avi and Jakew's).

I leave you with that, for tonight. You have given me much to think about, and I too wish to respond further. Thanks again, I really feel fortunate to discuss this with you. Blackworm (talk) 10:23, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Thank you so much for striking out that phrase. How refreshing to be dealing with encyclopedists, who understand and care about things like proper quoting! I'm sorry if I overdid the "insert phrase here" bit. Maybe I was trying to be a little humourous, but not in order to bother you. Actually, I was trying to communicate and (hey, it's practically the middle of the night for you too) was too tired to think of what to write if not "circumcision" in those spots. --Coppertwig (talk) 10:46, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

OK, verifiability is not to be sacrificed to expediency. And I already more-or-less acknowledged that an argument about it being hard work to change the article doesn't have much validity on Misplaced Pages. Nevertheless, the thing to aim for is being both verifiable, and of good service to the reader: helping the reader find that verifiable information in a few seconds with a few clicks of the mouse.

You seem to think that the structure and organization of Misplaced Pages articles should be based on the structure of dictionary definitions of words. I don't agree. I think the subject matter of articles is to be based on the structure of the factual material that is to be presented. If facts are similar or related in some way, they're collected into a single article. If the article is too big, it's split. If it's too small, it's merged with other articles. There may be different valid ways to organize the material, but the best ways will tend to maximize how closely related things in the same article are to each other. (Wait, that's not the only criterion, if you consider summary style: summary articles can contain collections of things not quite as closely related.) Anyway, as I see it, decisions are made about what groups of material are to go in which articles, and subsequently, a name is chosen for each article which best reflects the subject matter that is in it. As I see it, one doesn't choose a name based on the dictionary and then afterwards find material that best represents that name. It might look like it, because usually the proposal of what to put in a page is done mainly by suggesting a name for the page. To me, though, that suggestion is for the purpose of implying what material is to go in it. Often, along with a suggestion for a name comes other information as well, also suggesting what will go in the page. Suggesting "Let's have a page named X" does not mean "Let's have a page that explores all the definitions of the word 'X'". It means "Let's have a page that covers the subject matter that I mean by the word 'X' right now."

The exception is disambiguation pages. They work as you seem to be suggesting, covering all the dictionary definitions of a word, or at least all of them that refer to notable subject matter deserving articles. However, by convention they don't also contain paragraphs of content. --Coppertwig (talk) 18:36, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Re the suffrage example, here are some other examples that may seem to counter it. What do you think of the following:

• A page named "Military training" with a hatnote "This page is about training of human soldiers. For training of other species for military purposes, see 'Animal training#Military applications'"
• A page named "Bed" with a hatnote "This page is about the piece of furniture. For the book by the same title, see 'Bed (book)'".
• A page named "Pregnancy" with a hatnote "This page is about the state of internally carrying a baby. For ways in general of becoming a parent, see 'Becoming a parent'".

The suffrage example would obviously be inappropriate, but a similar pattern doesn't necessarily apply to other articles. Maybe it's partly because of the heavily-laden meaning of the word "right".

Can you explain in more detail how what the circumcision article says sounds to you like the suffrage example? --Coppertwig (talk) 01:13, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

It limits the meaning (and therefore, subsequent discussion) to the de facto meaning rather than the de jure meaning. Blackworm (talk) 09:42, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

One could suggest your "military training" example does the same thing (i.e. de facto vs. de jure). If evidence can be found that training of other species for military purposes is significantly referred to as "military training," then a discussion of that specific subject merits inclusion in the "military training" article. I believe that such a standard has been met in referring to circumcision as gender inclusive.

I doubt many would claim there is anything but a tenuous link between the concept of a bed, and the concept of a book with the title, "Bed." Perhaps some believe the same is true of "circumcision," and anything done to any female genitals. What is just as relevant, if not more so, is that there is widespread acceptance, if not a clear consensus, that it is not incorrect to refer to certain things done to female genitals as circumcision. If recent trends in usage prove to continue, possibly reinforced by a combination of the introduction of new terms, and the promotion of certain taboos on usage of the older terms, this acceptance may decline, and the issue revisited. For the moment, both these views are notable, and the article must not completely shut out the presentation of one view (claims of the hatnote serving as a presentation of that view notwithstanding). The current organization appears to me to lend undue weight to one view (100%: circumcision means "removing foreskin") over another (0%: circumcision means "the act of circumcising, i.e., removing foreskin or clitoris"). The latter view (zero percent weight) seems to be shared by Webster's, American Heritage, and Oxford English Dictionary. These sources are leading authorities on the meanings of English words. Our weighing of them is plain wrong.

Re: "Pregnancy:" If you're referring to the recent trend of some people saying "we're pregnant," I don't really think such colloquial usage merits mention. It's not even "recent scholarship" (treated carefully by Misplaced Pages), it's "recent usage." The usage may indeed merit inclusion in the "Pregnancy" article, if others have noted it. The example seems to suffer the same problems as Jakew's "male menopause" example, which I also reject as not analogous; I am not convinced by claims that it is as well supported that "male menopause" is a scholarly term, and have not been shown that the subject is discussed in the context of female menopause, and compared and contrasted with female menopause in peer-reviewed sources. (Sorry if that appears like a straw man .)

I should mention that I don't necessarily believe the meaning of "circumcision" currently expressed in the article, and in my suffrage example, is a de facto meaning. I'm suggesting it is at best a de facto meaning for some. Blackworm (talk) 10:51, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Please address the point that I tried to raise earlier, that it seems to me that you think the organization of material into Misplaced Pages articles should be determined by the organization of meanings into words, as recorded in dictionaries.

I don't agree with that approach at all. To me, the purpose of a Misplaced Pages article is not to express the word which appears in its title, nor to define the word (though that is generally also done briefly). Rather, the purpose of a Misplaced Pages article, in my opinion, is to present a collection of facts which intuitively appear to be so closely related to each other that they can be considered to be part of the same topic, regardless of whether the language contains a word or phrase that neatly focusses on that topic.

Here's another example. Suppose there's an article called "chair" about the piece of furniture, and another article called "chairperson" about presiding over meetings, and suppose the editors of the "chairperson" article discover that the word "chairperson" is not used all that often, but that the person presiding over a meeting is usually referred to as the "chair", and that that use of "chair" is very common and notable, perhaps more common in publications such as newspapers than references to the piece of furniture. Suppose they propose to rename their article to "chair". Suppose, on discovering that there is already an article "chair", some of them argue that ther e should be one article, called "chair", which discusses both the piece of furniture (in one section of the article) and the role of presiding over meetings, in another part of the article. I would argue against such a combined article on the grounds that the two topics are not closely related. There seems to be an etymological connection between the two. But I see them as two different topics, that don't belong in the same article. (Male and female circumcision are more closely related than chair and chair.) Now, suppose someone argues that "chair" frequently and notably means the person presiding over a meeting, so shunting that material off to a page with any other name (e.g. {chair (meetings)) would be an unacceptable POV statement that the word "chair" doesn't mean the person presiding over a meeting.

Just because a coherently defined topic exists doesn't necessarily mean Misplaced Pages should have an article on it. Other possibilities are: Covering the topic in part of an article which also includes other related material which is not part of that topic; covering the topic in a collection of articles which each cover subtopics of that topic; covering the topic in several parts of several different articles, etc. Perhaps just not covering the material is acceptable (I'm not sure). Also, if there are words or phrases which are synonyms or near-synonyms or which refer to overlapping topics, it's not necessary to have a page titled with each word or phrase.

To me, the organization of Misplaced Pages pages is based on the web of interrelatedness of the material which is to be divided into pages. It's not about the interrelatedness of the dictionary meanings of the words used in the titles. Misplaced Pages is not a dictionary. --Coppertwig (talk) 18:49, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

(Outdenting.) I agree with most of what you say. I'm not suggesting that the organization of Misplaced Pages should follow a dictionary without exception. I think that the source of our disagreement stems from our apparently different opinion of whether an article containing information on both male and female circumcision would or would not be "a collection of facts which intuitively appear to be so closely related to each other that they can be considered to be part of the same topic." I'm using dictionaries as sources for evidence that many people share my view on this, possibly even a majority. The dictionaries strongly suggest that historically, indeed that has been the case (the "many," not necessarily the "majority").

We appear to be editing simultaneously, so I should note that this comment, and your latest, above, were written after my comment after the second "arbitrary section break" (I loved that!) below. Blackworm (talk) 19:09, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Another arbitrary section break

Forgive me if I'm inundating your talk page with messages, but I truly am moved by the directions this discussion has taken us. I was wondering if you'd agree that it seems like a fundamental difference in our approach is the weighing of a commonly used meaning of a word versus the strictest/most liberal possible reasonable meaning(s) of that word. I say "strictest/most liberal" even though it sounds contradictory, because what I'm talking about is either extreme, versus the current, apparent, socially acceptable, claimed-as-majority view, or "mainstream" view as some like to put it.

Here is a suggestion I would have a much harder time arguing against, if I were to take the steadfast view that all viewpoints need be represented. The word "pedophile." The word has clear, widespread connotations of sexual desire for children, and I'm prepared to assert that most if not all English speakers use the word specifically to mean this. But looking at the Greek root of the word, we find "pedo-" (child) and "phile," from "philos" (friend). One interpretation of this is simply "a friend of children," a phrase which has no English word associated with it. I am hard pressed to argue that the interpretation is entirely unreasonable; but I do believe it reasonable to exclude the viewpoint based on the prevalence of that usage. I would agree that it would be unreasonable to base the "pedophile" article on that meaning, and possibly would also be unreasonable to even mention it; it is used by a tiny minority in that way (if anyone). I don't believe the same is true of "circumcision" used to describe female circumcision, based not only on things like Google Scholar searches, but also on my experience simply talking to other people around me, and coming into contact with that usage routinely, from multiple sources, and from an early age.

Incidentally, I find it quite notable (Avi's word: curious) that the Latin root of "circumcision" got deleted from the article. (It is now in a restored state, and if I remember correctly, it seems to vacillate.) Rhetorically (or not, as you wish), would you say that its presence may reasonably appear to some to diminish the credibility of the (IMO, narrowed) definition treated in the article?

I posit that many people who wince when the phrase "female circumcision" is uttered or written probably didn't come into contact with that usage of "circumcision" until late adolescence or adulthood, when they first heard of the practice done to females. It's also likely their first reaction to the subject was extremely negative (another reason for wincing, or something seeming "wrong"). They may have learned that circumcision means something done to males, and only males. As I'm fond of saying, non-neutral POV smells no matter where it comes from, including the heart, and gut. (I'm not implying you are part of this group.)

That said, it's nearing the end of a long year, and in this time of retrospect I give myself a grade of "D minus" (Charles M. Schulz, RIP) for my "work" in Misplaced Pages. I am the first to admit that in order for this system to work at its best, I need to make every effort to perish all thoughts that other editors are stubborn or unreasonable merely because they remain unconvinced, or incorrigibly biased and therefore irrelevant merely because they appear to be arguing from a point of view. I have fallen short of these ideals, often, while improperly accusing others of falling short of them; others who, in a fair assessment, may not have fallen short of those ideals nearly as often. You have singlehandedly restored much of my faith in the amazing things that can be accomplished when editors discuss respectfully, boldly, cordially, precisely, openly, honestly, and leaving any agenda behind. Thank you for that. If I believed in barnstars, you'd get a big one from me.

I feel almost like it would be impolite not to address many of the interesting points you have raised. I'm guessing you may feel the same, but as you seem to suggest, we shouldn't worry. I will attempt to take a course of pondering, rereading, and replying at whatever pace I am comfortable with at the time (including snails, like, really slow snails), and invite you to do the same. :) Blackworm (talk) 18:37, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Wow. What a fantastic compliment. I'm thrilled. But of course I'm too modest to let it go to my head. Just kidding. Actually, I will now promote myself three levels higher than where I already was in the hierarchy of insufferable know-it-all-itude. Just kidding.

Actually, there's no way I could possibly have done all that single-handedly. Surely other editors have been involved, and I've been impressed lately by the good nature of everyone I've been interacting with. People are listening to others, trying to see others' point of view, shifting their perspective, apologizing for things etc. People keep surprising me by shifting from a more confrontational position to a more accomodating one, and I'm making the same shifts, coming to the realization that I was being more confrontational than I thought, etc. Is it Misplaced Pages that's so wonderful, somehow encouraging people to bring out their better sides, or is it human nature that's just like that a lot of the time, or is it the hard work of internal reflection carried out by the particular people I'm interacting with? Probably all three.

I think you can give yourself an A on the final exam. Your message above shows a willingness to look at yourself from a different perspective, in a deep way. That takes humility and detachment. It's you who have done the hard work here. "O wad some power the giftie gie us/To see oursel's as others see us. --Coppertwig (talk) 22:37, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

OK, now that we have that out of the way, we can now have a real knock-down argument.  :-) No, you haven't been putting too many messages on my talk page. I like getting talk page messages. I like it so much that I've been sending messages to myself; but it doesn't bring up that nifty orange banner, so I think I'll move those activities to a sandbox so I don't make it so hard on people like you who might be watching my talk page.

You said, "I was wondering if you'd agree that it seems like a fundamental difference in our approach is the weighing of a commonly used meaning of a word versus the strictest/most liberal possible reasonable meaning(s) of that word." No, I wouldn't agree with that. I would say that the difference in our approaches is that you're weighing the meanings of the words used in article titles, while I'm not weighing the meanings of words -- at least, not as a means of deciding which material should be grouped together into an article. For that, I weigh the interrelatedness of the material itself, regardless of what the definitions (any definitions) of the words in the article title are. Actually, I suppose language comes into it a bit too, but only slightly compared to how it does in your approach.

I like keeping the Latin derivation of the word "circumcision" in the article. This is one place where I do follow your dictionary-like approach to some extent, just for a few words of the article. It's an exception.

You said, "Rhetorically (or not, as you wish), would you say that its presence may reasonably appear to some to diminish the credibility of the (IMO, narrowed) definition treated in the article?" No, I wouldn't say that. I think I don't understand what you mean at all here. To me, a definition cannot be credible or incredible. Only an assertion can be credible or incredible. A definition is not an assertion. To repeat a point, I see the purpose of Misplaced Pages articles as being to provide assertions, not definitions (except for those few words near the beginning of the article). --Coppertwig (talk) 03:02, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Would you agree with this statement: "Blackworm believes that to have an article titled 'circumcision' which covers only male circumcision is tantamount to asserting that the word 'circumcision' is never used, or should never be used, to refer to female circumcision, while Coppertwig believes that applying a certain article title to an article with certain content is merely using the words in the article title to communicate, not making any statement about those words or their definitions." --Coppertwig (talk) 14:07, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Replace "asserting" with "implying," and "never " with "almost never ," and I would agree with your statement of my belief. I don't think the statement of your belief contradicts the statement of mine. I don't agree that a definition is not an assertion. I view a definition as a narrowing of valid possibilities of meaning. How much we narrow those possibilities of meaning is a normative statement. It's conforming to a norm; in this case a narrower norm than is reasonable, because it seems to exclude significant viewpoints. Excluding these viewpoints a priori leads to a basis for excluding information based on these viewpoints anywhere in the article, including any information comparing or contrasting male and female circumcision. (Take, for example, the Benatar statement recently deleted from the FGC article.) It appears such information is often verboten both in the circumcision article, and in the female genital cutting article, on the grounds that "this article is about 'X' circumcision, not 'Y' circumcision." It begs the question, where is the general article on circumcision? Where else would such information go? At the moment, the answer I'm hearing seems to be, "outside Misplaced Pages," or at least "outside any mainstream articles." I'm not really interested in what I see as POV-fork articles. Misplaced Pages is not a battleground for ideas, with those in power (in this case, a community) whisking some far away while keeping others in the spotlight.

By the way, I read Misplaced Pages:Wikipedia_is_not_a_dictionary. I get the impression policy is stating that Misplaced Pages is more than a dictionary. Misplaced Pages presents what a thing is. If the WP community is happy saying, or appearing to say, "circumcision is male circumcision," then I guess that's what it is to Misplaced Pages. It's a position. It will be evaluated as such, and unfortunately leaves itself open to be criticized as such. Blackworm (talk) 19:44, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

I would not agree to having a Misplaced Pages article state, "circumcision is male circumcision," because that's a POV statement that excludes female circumcision, failing to reflect that in the literature, the word "circumcision" is often used to mean female circumcision. It fails WP:NPOV.

Would you agree to the following as a statement of our positions: "Blackworm believes that to have an article titled 'circumcision' which covers only male circumcision is tantamount to implying that the word 'circumcision' is almost never used, or should not be used, to refer to female circumcision, while Coppertwig believes that applying a certain article title to an article with certain content is merely using the words in the article title to communicate, not making any statement or implication about those words or their definitions." Do you think the two positions as stated here contradict each other?

You said, "I view a definition as a narrowing of valid possibilities of meaning." There's something I really don't follow in your position. A dictionary will list more than one definition of the same word. You seem to be saying that all the definitions have to be used at the same time. It's like telling someone they shouldn't say "here, you can sit in this chair if you like," on the grounds that using "chair" to mean the piece of furniture is implying that "chair" isn't the appropriate word for the person presiding over a meeting.

Also, you say you think Misplaced Pages is supposed to tell what a thing is; but your arguments seem to be directed not towards having the article tell what a thing is, but having it tell what all the meanings of a word are. In other words, the impression I get from the other things you said is that you think the article should be focussed around a word, not around a thing.

To me, adding one more definition to a list of definitions in a dictionary broadens, not narrows, the scope of things the word can refer to.

Re the Benatar information: I deleted that, but not because it's about both male and female circumcision. If you can come up a useful/interesting/informative statement that's an accurate summary of part of the Benatar article, perhaps I can help fit it into one of the articles somewhere, other editors willing. I see no reason why one or the other article can't mention circumcision of the other gender. My reason for deleting the reference was that it didn't accurately reflect what the source says, in my opinion, and I didn't see (at that time) a way of editing it that would be useful and true to the source. Note that I'm unlikely to consider any statement using the word "analogous" to be an accurate reflection of the quoted part of the Benatar reference. --Coppertwig (talk) 21:18, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

I can only say I agree with your presentation of my position, and yours does seem to be different, and I see some overlap between our positions. Things are implied by organization and definitions. Here is an example. Let's suppose we did change the title of the article to "Circumcision (male)," and made "Circumcision" a redirect. What does this "say" to the reader who types in "Circumcision," without needing to say it explicitly? Why do we need to "say" that, when sources differ as to the implied statement?

Re: The "chair" example: I'm not suggesting words cannot mean more than one thing. I'm suggesting that many meanings may be valid, and it is non-NPOV to imply otherwise in this case; by content or organization. I don't believe in categorizing things by their gender where gender-inclusive definitions exist and are prominent; or at the very least, there must be a gender-inclusive treatment of a topic if that gender-inclusive treatment is demonstrated by reliable sources. Can you think of an example of any WP article which has a title, "X (male)" or "X (female)" where there isn't already at least a summary "X" article, or a disambiguation page? Is circumcision an absolutely unique case?

You say, "adding one more definition to a list of definitions in a dictionary broadens, not narrows, the scope of things the word can refer to." I completely agree.

I'm not saying "all the definitions have to be used at the same time," I'm saying "all the definitions need to be weighed by WP." Obviously the a word will be used with different meanings in the context of a conversation, but here we are establishing context for a topic. The "chair" article may begin, "this article is about the piece of furniture," which is perfectly fine context. But if someone added, "for a wheelchair, see Wheelchair" and began the article, "A chair is a piece of furniture, not used for mobility, that ," that would raise the eyebrows of some people because to them, a wheelchair is a chair. The example is perhaps weak because there are many types of chairs, not just two, three, or four, but the chair article properly deals with all pieces of furniture that are chairs.

If I suggested that "Circumcision" redirect to "Brit Milah," because it is a valid meaning of "circumcision," would that be acceptable to you? I don't believe that "using the words in the article title to communicate" is a goal of Misplaced Pages, but there are some forms of communication that could be reasonably taken to imply "correct" meaning, and they are to be avoided in my opinion. A prominent meaning isn't the only prominent meaning. Note that the Brit Milah example is not perfect, because Brit Milah is treated at length in the main circumcision article, despite it meaning more than "the removal of some or all of the foreskin (prepuce) from the penis." (From circumcision.) Should we rename the article, "Circumcision (procedure)" and relegate all discussion of Brit Milah to the hatnote? I'm really grasping to understand why your argument could not be used to do just that.

My arguments are directed at "having the article tell what a thing is" according to all notable views. For many, circumcision is not (only) male <thing>. I have few issues with an article titled similarly to "male circumcision" describing only male circumcision, but I don't see the justification for an article entitled "circumcision" describing only male circumcision, in light of prominent views that other things are also circumcision. I definitely think changing the title and adding a redirect is an improvement, and I would be willing to step back and observe what happens in that case, but I don't think it would stick simply because of the begging the question issue. The answer, in my opinion, is at the very least a disambiguation page; a solution not viewed as Earth-shattering anywhere else that I can see, and yet seemingly roundly opposed in this case.

I understand that you deleted the Benatar statement for unrelated reasons. I only bring it up because that kind of statement (if not that actual statement) has been attacked on precisely the grounds that it is not "directly related" to circumcision, nor female genital cutting, which are the only two likely candidates I can see for the statement. I do think it's notable that these concepts are being compared in sources, and the current organization forces their exclusion. Where would this specific statement go (my proposal of "a useful/interesting/informative statement that's an accurate summary of part of the Benatar article"): Benatar et al. claim that clitoridectomy is "very harmful," and claim that this harm "separates female genital excision from male circumcision." Note that Benatar said this in an article primarily about male circumcision; the article has "male circumcision" in the title. Why are they comparing female genital excision and male circumcision? Would one be able to currently answer that by seeking information in Misplaced Pages?

Again, I present all this in the spirit of humility and respect. I don't "need" this changed, despite my devoting large amounts of time to discussing it. I do think it makes WP look bad, but then, maybe many people take a dim view of WP, and maybe we can abide by that. Blackworm (talk) 02:01, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

By the way, the ref I just added to Female genital cutting (Rebecca Cook, currently the first footnote in the article) contains in the quote I put in the footnote, "... not at all analogous to male circumcision,...". Since this contains the word "analogous" (a word which was in the Wikipedian interpretation of Benatar which I deleted) you might want to use this in the article somehow. I didn't really use that part of the quote. --Coppertwig (talk) 02:11, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Note to self

Perhaps need to revert this edit which was apparently the one that messed up the ref list (july 20; Female genital cutting) --Coppertwig (talk) 01:35, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Done.

Source re breastfeeding, including plugged ducts: Another bf ref:

RFA

I just mean that editing one page too much, you might not be able to catch something on another page. That's all. Hiddenhearts Sign Here! My Talk 19:47, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

RfA Thanks

Thank you for voting in my RfA, which closed successfully with 44 support, 4 oppose, and 3 neutral. I will work hard to improve the encyclopedia with my new editing tools (and don't worry, I'll be careful).

  jj137 01:38, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

response to your comment on my talk page

Instinct also helps me go after speediable articles. I very often come across new articles which may have useful content, but that is covered within existing articles and redirecting just doesn't seem to be an option. I have found that only serious editors will confront me, and I heartily welcome that. I like to be told that I'm wrong! I also like the interaction. If you look at my contributions (specifically, the user talk pages wherein I posted a speedy notice similar), check out how many editors bothered to continue editing, or even take the time to respond to me. The reality I seem to encounter is, that many articles simply don't belong, and editors don't get the concenpt of an encyclopedia, or want to take the time. I guess this makes me more of a deletionist than an inclusionist, but don't try to fit me in a slot just yet! - CobaltBlueTony™ _talk 15:23, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

The percentage of new editors who continue editing may be small, but it's those few who do who are of key importance: they are the source of new editors for Misplaced Pages. That's why it's important to be nice to them. What if in a few cases, the reason they go away and don't reply or continue editing is that they're discouraged or intimidated by the speedy deletion of their article (or imminent threat thereof)? Then the fact that they don't continue editing becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. You can point to any number of new editors who go away even if their articles are not deleted or bothered in any way, but that in no way negates that fact that a few of us actually do continue editing. Early in my own Wikipedian career I created one or two articles that were deleted a few weeks later. If they had been deleted almost immediately, would I have found editing Misplaced Pages to be an enjoyable, rewarding, welcoming place and would I have stayed around? I really don't know.

When you say you use intuition to go after speediable articles, I hope you mean that after using intuition to find them, you check whether they meet the speedy deletion criteria before you add a speedy tag. If in doubt, don't add the tag. Remember there are other deletion methods (e.g. prod and AfD). If an article is not actually harmful -- i.e. just empty or non-notable, not an attack page or copyvio or something -- there's no harm leaving it around for a few days. In fact, your argument that the editor rarely returns to their article is an argument to use prod rather than speedy: if they're not coming back, prod would work just as well -- the article would simply get deleted a week later. But if you do that a large number of times, then one of those times it may just be a new editor who, at first uncertain whether they can, should or want to edit Misplaced Pages, finds their initial efforts rewarding and becomes an active editor -- or is incensed or scared off by a too-fast speedy-delete of their article and never comes back.

See if you can change your editing behaviour to maximize the number of new editors who do reply to you or who do continue editing. Even if it's a small number, can you double it? Whether someone is a serious editor or not is not yet determined when the person is making their first few edits. --Coppertwig (talk) 02:00, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Need to merge Benignus

Note to self: proposed merge of Benignus of Armagh and Saint Benan on Dec. 25. --Coppertwig (talk) 01:45, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

NOR

Note to self: Interesting comment re NOR. Original research being allowed in some form). Driving down a highway. --Coppertwig (talk) 23:16, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Admin

Thanks for your message and support. Don't forget to vote next time :) -- Magioladitis (talk) 22:18, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

RfA thanks

Dear Coppertwig, here is a little note to say thank you for your kind support on my request for adminship which succeeded with a final result of (72/19/6).

Now that I am a sysop, do not hesitate to contact me with any queries you have. I would be glad to help you along with the other group of kind and helpful administrators.

Thank you again and I look forward to editing alongside you in the future. — E 12:41, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for the apology and praise

And I don't mind it when you fix my links, I appreciate it. Thank you for your efforts to keep Blackworm and I focused on content through positive reinforcement. This has been a useful lesson. Although I disagree with you on your disputation of the facticity of reproductive rights as human rights, I think you'll find that I'm more than reasonable when it comes to the issue of abortion as a human right. Perhaps we could work together in developing a neutral section dealing with this sub-topic? This would justify mentioning abortion in the lead (as is, we have a lot of orphaned content in there) and would help determine what language would be appropriate.

Does this mean we're making forward movement on the lead? Because if so, I'm overjoyed. I would enjoy the opportunity to collaborate in a way that added constructive content to the article. Phyesalis (talk) 16:58, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

I think we've made definite progress. I had been getting the feeling for some time that you opposed certain proposed versions of the page, but nothing had been stated explicitly. Now you've provided an argument against "option 2" (see Talk:Reproductive rights). The discussion can therefore take a step forward, with counterarguments etc.

I might or might not be interested in getting involved in writing anything about abortion. --Coppertwig (talk) 23:42, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Recent rename of Circumcision in the Bible

I think it's a mistake. Take a look at what links to Circumcision in the Bible, it's almost always discussion of the Bible, hence the obvious and well defined title. If you wish to create a new article called Circumcision in cultures and religions, you should do so, and that new article could reference Circumcision in the Bible. Circumcision in the Bible as an article is already big enough, no need to broaden its scope. Further discussion should probably be on the talk page. 64.149.83.66 (talk) 05:47, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Sorry for being so tardy

Thanks for your note: the first time I saw it I forgot to make the move, and the next time I remembered it. Jayjg 04:06, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

*waves*

Hey Coppertwig! It's me, Pyth. How're you doing? Pythian Habenero (talk) 16:55, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Hiya, Pyth!

That was funny when you said "reverting all his changes".

Look at what I wrote at Talk:List of oxymora. (My ulterior motive in posting this here is to preserve my words in case List of oxymora gets deleted.) See how many oxymora (or things that refer to or are kinda like oxymora in one way or another) you can find in it -- especially the last sentence. (AfD means "articles for deletion"):

== OK, I won't AfD it in the current instant, but ... ==

This page is seriously funny. It's downright uplifting. Making this page encyclopedic could be a contradiction in terms, however. Whether something is or is not an oxymoron is merely subjective fact. Different people will interpret the same words differently. I see the page hasn't taken a single step yet towards its presumed eventual fully-sourced destination. Is it perhaps an impossible possibility to verify that something is an oxymoron? (A citation could establish that in the opinion of the author of the source it's a true oxymoron, but can it establish it objectively as a criterion for inclusion in this list?) Dividing it into separate appendices requires even more exact citation information, to firmly suggest that a phrase belongs in one section or another. Otherwise Misplaced Pages is in effect stating unuttered claims here. Besides, it thoroughly fails to list "preschool" in any of its sections. :-(

I put up an AfD tag but then noticed the article had previously overcome undergoing AfD and been kept, so I self-reverted the tag off again. However, at some point in what is presently the future I might put it on again.

I see the page has been cited as unreferenced since November 2007. In the near future I may come around, look through and delete a lot of the unsourced oxymora (Maybe just the ones I would agree to be disputable.) Later I might see what happens if the whole page is run through AfD again with a differently worded nomination reason -- with passionate regret, because it's a fun page. Is there a respectable jokipedia or someplace it could be transwikied to? Alternatively, we could change Misplaced Pages's immutable policies to allow this sort of page, but that would open a huge can of worms, so I would propose against that suggestion.

Meanwhile, all those who favour equitability for this page can head towards sources to assist in preventing its possibly very real extinction

--Coppertwig (talk) 19:18, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Goodness, that's impressive. Also: thank you! --Pythian Habenero (talk) 01:32, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Some time later, I add: in case you want to know what LiveJournal is, voila! (and forget to sign it, because I'm a dork) Pythian Habenero (talk) 15:55, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

*waves back*

Thank you very much for being impressed, and I'm impressed, though not surprised, that you're impressed, because I think many people would fail to see some of the grasping-at-straws attempts at oxymora I included. Also: You're very welcome, and not a dork IMO, however many posts you forget to sign.

I see there's a discussion about deleting List of sites running the LiveJournal engine. --Coppertwig (talk) 18:29, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

So there is. I was pondering contributing my voice to either side, but the only reason I'd want to keep it would be because I'd find it personally useful, and I don't at the moment. If that makes sense, which it might not. --Pythian Habenero (talk) 20:13, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Subsequently: Aha, and it would appear it's gone off without my input. *shrug* --Pythian Habenero (talk) 20:16, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

A tardy thank you

Coppertwig, I sincerely apologize if my comment (last in archive 2) about your relationship to Circumcision and RR implied, or caused to you to infer, that I was casting aspersions on your general credibility. From all that I can tell, you are a valuable member of the project. I have no knowledge of your work on Circumcision but your efforts to keep the talk page calm and to provide an alternate source and wording on the "analogous" issue at RR have certainly been contributions to be proud of. Also, the time and goodwill that you have put into our user talk page discussions, particularly your lovely comments on my talk page, deserve more credit. Thank you.

I declined your offer to coach me through the conflict with Blackworm for the fact that I would be uncomfortable being coached by someone with your opposing perspectives (inferred from our interactions), who also happened to have the history that you and Blackworm have, and happened to be currently editing the pages in question, purely for the possibility of a general conflict of interest, neither an implied, nor an established one. Again, I'm sorry if my comment caused you offense. Perhaps you would reconsider my offer to help me build a neutral section on other perspectives on Reproductive rights? Not that you've actually turned me down, but I don't remember your response and there's been little in the way of reliable development. I would love to be able to move this forward. Phyesalis (talk) 17:45, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, I accept your apology and appreciate the clarification, and it's very kind of you to speak so positively of my efforts.

I might or might not help write other sections of the article. It might depend on how much time I have, what else I'm doing, and whether inspiration strikes me. --Coppertwig (talk) 18:34, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Understood. With the recent holidays and other events, when I saw your edit to the "analogous" quote, I thought, "That's a great solution." I have been remiss in my commitment to harmonious collaboration by not crediting you earlier. Thank you for the gracious acceptance of my apology. Phyesalis (talk) 18:55, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Ah, I think you mean this edit. I'd forgotten that I'd added a reference and didn't know what you were talking about at first -- I had to search around to find what you meant. It was one of a few references I'd found via a "Google books" search while trying to fill out the article on the Inter-African Committee. Thanks for the compliment. --Coppertwig (talk) 19:05, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

I wanted to let you know that I've responded to the AN regarding your comment. I also want you to know that I had (no) intention to involve you in this particular issue. But since you've joined the discussion, I hope you will consider Cailil's suggestion of formal mediation. Thanks. Phyesalis (talk) 04:10, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Back again. Hope you don't mind, but while I'm disengaging from the articles involved with the dispute, I'd like to comment on your proposal at RR here. First, I appreciate your efforts to find a compromise. The problem is that your statement sidelines the fact that the UN considers various RR as human rights, in fact doesn't mention it at all. I see this to be a big problem with the proposal. Second, I was wondering if you might consider stepping back from the articles as well, until the dispute is resolved, maybe even pass the suggestion along to Blackworm? I'd take this as an act of good faith toward equitably resolving the issues. Phyesalis (talk) 05:31, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

You say "the fact that the UN considers various RR as human rights". I haven't seen a reliable source that supports this statement, as far as I can see, therefore I don't know whether the UN considers various RR as human rights or not. Remember that if you want to insert disputed material into the article, the onus is on you to find a reliable source that supports it. I encourage you again to specify a particular passage in a particular reliable source which supports this statement. I might also do more searching through the sources myself in hopes of finding something along those lines.

At the moment I don't see any reason for me to step back from the articles. If you explain what the problematic dispute is and why you consider it necessary for yourself to step back from the articles, I might consider it.

I'm willing to help you word a message to Blackworm, but I think it's best if you deliver the message yourself. --Coppertwig (talk) 14:53, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

(You would also have to specify which articles you're asking me to step back from.) --Coppertwig (talk) 14:56, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

The fact that you do not recognize CEDAW, Beijing and Cairo as extensions of the UN, and the fact that various RR have been ratified by the UN, is one of the major issues we have in our dispute. In particular, I'd like to ask you to stop editing RR and FGC until we can resolve the issues between you, Blackworm, and myself. The reason I'm asking you to step away from the articles is that a) you are a partial reason why I am not editing those two pages during this dispute and b) you keep editing parts of articles that are disputed in a manner which advances your POV, despite the fact that I have stepped away in a GF attempt to reduce the tension and resolve the dispute. Stepping back would go a long way toward your credibility in wanting to achieve an equitable resolution in this matter (in my eyes).

Thank you for agreeing to pass this along to Blackworm. I recognize that you are under no obligation to do so, and I appreciate it. Blackworm and I have agreed to mediation, are you in? Phyesalis (talk) 16:58, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

(outdent)There seems to be some misunderstanding. I haven't agreed to pass anything along to Blackworm. What I meant was that I'm offering to work with you, suggesting what words to use, and then you can send the resulting message to Blackworm yourself (or possibly get someone else to deliver it).

I don't remember being asked whether I recognize CEDAW, Beijing or Cairo to be extensions of the UN. The CEDAW page says "The Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women (CEDAW) is an international convention adopted in 1979 by the United Nations General Assembly." so that's very clear: CEDAW is part of the UN. I agree with you on that. Beijing and Cairo are cities, but I think you mean either the conferences, or declarations made at the conferences, mentioned here: (Advancing Reproductive Rights Beyond Cairo and Beijing): "...has gained momentum through recent United Nations (UN) conferences, particularly the 1994 International Conference on Population and Development, held in Cairo, and the 1995 Fourth World Conference no Women, held in Beijing." This quote calls them UN conferences, so I assume they're extensions of the UN. So we agree on that, too.

You say "the fact that various RR have been ratified by the UN". Repeating this again without providing any arguments or pointing to any specific passages in reliable sources does nothing to convince me of this. If you have convincing arguments (or any arguments) in favour of this statement, please tell me what they are. It seems to me that it may be possible to easily convince me of this by showing me the right quote. Note that I'm under the impression that the word "ratified" has a specific technical meaning in international affairs; but I don't think I've seen verification of a softer version of the statement either.

I'm not aware of any issues between you and me except some differences of opinion, plus vague allegations at WP:AN which you said you would overlook. Differences of opinion are normal and should not impede working together on finding a version of the article that satisfies both of us, or if that is not possible, then a compromise. We need to work at eliminating misunderstandings, such as the misunderstanding that you apparently thought I was refusing to recognize certain conferences as extensions of the UN. (Possibly I did at some time in the past -- I don't remember -- but you could have simply showed me those quotes I just looked up if you wanted to persuade me.)

If there's some reason you don't want to retype quotes as I've done, you can refer to specific passages like this: "The last sentence of the first paragraph on page 1 of Advancing Reproductive Rights ..." (with a link to the page, or mentioning that it's the first footnote at RR, or etc.)

Vague allegations cannot be responded to properly, and anyway you said you were going to overlook them. In future, please either provide specific details of any allegations, or don't mention them at all. I would consider it an act of good faith if you would either strike out the words "in a few instances" and "tendentious edits/arguments" in this post or else provide on my talk page details of when you allege that I didn't work towards solutions or did do "tendentious edits/arguments"; however, I don't require or necessarily expect that you will do one of these things this time around. In future, though, I do expect you to raise issues with me directly on my talk page before mentioning them at WP:AN, and I do also expect you to either provide details of allegations, or else not mention them at all. I consider that just common courtesy.

Disagreeing with me about some article content issues doesn't seem like a good reason to stop editing an article, and it certainly doesn't seem like a good reason for me to stop editing. However, I might do so as part of the mediation process. What about posting to the article talk pages? What about discussing the articles in userspace, or editing drafts of the articles in userspace?

You say "you are a partial reason why I am not editing those two pages during this dispute." This provides almost no information. It's another vague allegation. Please either provide details (i.e. what specifically about my behaviour is bothering you?) or else retract your allegation.

You say "you keep editing parts of articles that are disputed in a manner which advances your POV, despite the fact that I have stepped away in a GF attempt to reduce the tension and resolve the dispute." Actually, in the time after you asked me (today or yesterday) to step away from the articles, I have not edited the two articles in question at all. Before that, I understood that you were taking a break, but didn't see any need for anyone else to also take a break at the same time. Anyone can choose to take a break from editing an article for any of a variety of reasons. Normally, others continue editing. You're making it sound as if I did something wrong, when you hadn't even asked me to stop editing, and I would have been justified, I think, in refusing if you had asked. (One option you have in such situations is to request page protection.) Although I knew you were taking a break, I wasn't clear on exactly what the reasons for your break were: I still don't. Actually, I'm not even clear when you were or were not taking a break. It seems to me that we were having ongoing discussion between you and me at Talk:Reproductive rights recently, so that doesn't look like a break. I often wait 24 hours for a response before editing. Sometimes longer. Sometimes I edit without waiting; sometimes you also edit without waiting for a response. Please remember that if I edit in a way that displeases you, you can always invoke my "self-revert" userbox.

I'm sorry that after you inserted the word "various" in an attempt at compromise in response to my request, I didn't reply for a longish time. I had less online time than I expected for a few days, and my reply took a lot more thought than I expected; when I finally did reply it was rather long. Thank you for your patience in that situation. --Coppertwig (talk) 23:03, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

First, I'm sorry, I misread your post. No problem on the Blackworm thing. You know, you're right. I have not discussed particular issues I have with you, with you. I did not post diffs at AN, because I truly had no intention of bringing you into it. (Also because it seemed more about how to handle the situation than trying to prove a particular case.) The fact that you make edits like this on RR advocacy, acknowledging in the edit summary: “I haven't read past the first page of two of the cites but I'm not convinced they support those statements.” There were three sources, two of which were lengthy peer-review articles by notable experts in their field. Cook is an international authority on the subject (at least according to the UN). This kind of edit makes me really have to re-evaluate your efforts to mediate the issues between Blackworm and myself (well, when you became an active editor of the pages with edits that predominantly supported B's POV in general, but that edit in particular). I can provide other examples, but I feel like that one is a good one. (Also the fact that you became an active editor in a dispute you were trying to informally mediate seems a good one too.)

Quite frankly, I would have no problem arguing for you to be excluded from the mediation if you would agree to stop editing RR and FGC until the end of the mediation. You yourself have acknowledged that you don't have a lot of time/inclination to work on the article to address the unexplicated POVs on the issues. Does this seem reasonable to you? I ask, not trying to strongarm you, but in an effort to reach a reasonable compromise outside of formal mediation. I would consider it an act of GF, nothing more (that is to say agreement by both parties does not constitute any accusation nor any admission or defense of an otherwise implied accusation). What do you think? Phyesalis (talk) 01:04, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Please explain what it was about that edit that bothered you. I'm still waiting for you to provide quotes supporting your point. I'm not convinced that such quotes exist in those articles. The statements I added fact tags to seemed to be asserting that all reproductive rights advocates were doing those things. That would require sources establishing that doing those things is part of the (well-established) definition of reproductive rights advocates. I haven't seen any quotes presenting such a definition.

Actually, I was participating in discussion at Talk:Reproductive rights, and editing the article, before I began what I would consider informal mediation. Maybe I should have explained to you more clearly at the beginning what I was intending to do. I greatly limited my participation in the discussion on the article talk page or editing the article(s) while I was carrying on a mediation-like discussion with you, but at no time did I intend to keep out of the discussion. In fact, part of my motivation in starting the mediation-like activity in the first place was to get the user-behaviour stuff out of the way so that I could see the article-content discussion on the article talk page without other stuff getting in the way. That seems to have been successful. I avoided using the word "mediation" so as to avoid giving you the impression that I was intending to do anything special. I interacted the way I normally interact: editing, participating in discussion, and also encouraging people to get along when the opportunity to give such encouragement arises. I started editing and discussing more when I had gotten the impression that our conversation was winding down, that you were less interested in it. If I do something like that again, I'll try to remember to tell the person close to the beginning that I'm not planning to refrain from editing or discussing, and about having a history with other participants. I wouldn't tell them right at the beginning, because at that point I wouldn't know that mediation-like activity was about to start happening.

Actually, I did say this: "OK, here's something to try: choose one to three edits you want to make to the article and show me where the discussion of them is or start a new discussion of them, and I'll (probably) get involved and hopefully help resolve the issue; but probably only if you stick to only article content discussion in that context." quite early on in our discussion, which indicated an interest on my part in getting involved in the discussion. I thought you were trying to get more people involved in the discussion.

No thank you, I don't want to refrain from editing articles during the mediation without participating in the mediation. Anyway, that probably wouldn't help the situation. We still have to form consensus at the articles afterwards, anyway. Perhaps now that I've agreed to mediation, I'm looking forward to it and am not trying to get out of it.

If you don't clarify what you're asking me to refrain from editing, I'll assume you're asking me to refrain from editing Reproductive rights and Female genital cutting, but that you're not asking me to refrain from participating in discussion on the article talk pages of those articles, nor to refrain from discussion about the articles elsewhere or editing of drafts of the articles elsewhere. --Coppertwig (talk) 02:57, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure if the Reproductive Rights article already has this reference: "Reproductive rights embrace certain human rights that are already recognized in national laws, international human rights documents and other relevant UN consensus documents. These rights rest on the recognition of the basic right of all couples and individuals to decide freely and responsibly the number, spacing and timing of their children and to have the information and means to do so, and the right to attain the highest standard of sexual and reproductive health." from UNFPA Summary of the ICPD Programme for Action: --Coppertwig (talk) 03:11, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Reproductive rights should also have a link to this page: International Conference on Population and Development, which could be wikilinked to the word "Cairo" in the lead. Also a link to Fourth World Conference on Women from "Beijing" -- except it's already wikilinked later in the article. I'm not sure if we have this document (the platform of action from Beijing) among the references already. "The explicit recognition and reaffirmation of the right of all women to control all aspects of their health, in particular their own fertility, is basic to their empowerment;" --Coppertwig (talk) 03:22, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Arbitrary section break

Thanks for the additional resources. I am familiar with them, but given the previous objections, I wasn't sure you'd have accepted them. I added the Beijing link (if I remember correctly) around the time I added the men's content. At the time, there wasn't any mention of Cairo or Beijing in the lead. Does this mean that you now agree that "Various reproductive rights have been established as human rights?" Because that would be great.

Taking a page from you on the ASB. Hope you don't mind. What bothered me about the edit (diff in previous post) was the apparent lack of good faith over some fairly basic facts. You did not read either of the articles in their entirety, and yet felt the need to surmise that the two fairly lengthy articles did not contain the information. To make that kind of edit summary, in conjunction with the cite tag seemed somewhat antagonistic considering that you were attempting to de-escalate a dispute that involved contentious editing of the same kind of behavior (although on a much larger scale). Perhaps a better way to help de-escalate would have been to discuss it on the talk, since all three of us were active in discussion. Seeing as how Blackworm's slapping cite tags on everything he disagreed with, despite the fact that it had citations was part of the issue to begin with, your continuation of the practice seemed intentionally antagonistic. Now from my perspective, it seems you have been content to allow Blackworm to act as a sort of stalking horse, allowing you to interject as the voice of reason, lending an air of legitimacy to an editor's tendentious methods while advancing the same POV.

I wrote that I was asking you to stop editing "RR and FGC". I'm sorry if that wasn't clear. Yes, I am asking you to stop editing Reproductive rights and Female genital cutting (main and talk) for the duration of the mediation. If you want to work on other mock-ups, I have no issue (why would I ask you to do that?). Do you find this request unreasonable? If so, would you mind explaining why?

Also, the issue of the material regarding men's health that you and BW have removed because you deem it sexist, would you mind pointing out the WP policy the covers sexist material? I am unaware of this policy, that cited material can be removed for perceived sexism. Also, could you explain how the material is sexist. I don't understand this at all. The source clearly states that men's sexual activity outside a committed relationship has general health repercussions due to the fact that the differences in reproductive systems make it much more likely that a man will transmit an STD to a woman than the other way around. I don't understand your opposition to this material. If I add that info in, it does not pass a commutation test - replacing men with women does not yield the same truth statement, it yields a false one.

In closing, I like your suggestion to work together on coming up with a mediation request. I think it will be helpful to have you as an involved party. Thank you. I'm going to post over at AN about our conversation and its outcome. Phyesalis (talk) 19:46, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Clearly any time a heterosexual man is having sexual activity outside a committed relationship, a woman is also having sexual activity outside a committed relationship. Do you agree or disagree? Yes, or no? There is the source of the commutation. Implying men's activity somehow affects the transmission of disease more than women's is pure nonsense, proven by that very simple analysis. Views expressing bigotry not attributed in prose to a specific group are not permitted in Misplaced Pages. Blackworm (talk) 20:16, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Hope you don't mind that I corrected my original break, didn't mean to make this a separate section. I'll change it back if you like.

I didn't ask for page protection because I didn't want to stop others from editing the article, and I thought it would be more polite if I just asked the two of you to agree voluntarily. Page protection seemed a bit antagonistic without asking you first. Phyesalis (talk) 22:44, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

(Edit conflict!) Actually, I wasn't aware of what it was about Blackworm's behaviour that was bothering you. Perhaps I ought to have asked you to define the problem more clearly; but I didn't want to encourage you to again list things that Blackworm had done. I jumped to the conclusion that what was needed was to establish better relations with Blackworm, and focussed on that in my advice to you. I think that did help. But, I failed to help clarify what the specific issues (or specific behaviours) were that were bothering you. I wasn't aware that Blackworm's placing of fact tags on material that already had footnotes was one of the problems in your eyes. You may have said so, but it may have been in a list of behaviours and I didn't pay attention to the details; I only saw a list of behaviours, I didn't see analysis by you as to what you thought was wrong with the behaviours. So, I didn't memorize any list of types of behaviours that you might seem to disapprove of: it wasn't clear to me, from what you said, what they were.

Early on, I assumed that I would probably be on your side. Perhaps that's because I was basing my conclusions mainly on what you were saying. I was surprised and somewhat embarassed, when I got more involved in editing the articles, to find that I was agreeing with Blackworm on a lot of article-content issues. I was also somewhat surprised that article-content issues seemed to be the main problem. I had thought that once people started to get along, the article-content issues would be resolved in the normal way, i.e. by discussing, trying to find mutually agreeable solutions or compromises, etc.

Now that you've explained things in your message above, it seems clear that you disapprove of the adding of {{fact}} tags to material that already has footnotes. That seems to be a reasonable position, but I don't necessarily agree with it. Perhaps a {{citecheck}} template would be more appropriate in some situations. What's your reason for disapproving of this way of using fact tags? A footnote sometimes applies to a larger entity, such as a whole paragraph, a whole sentence or a few sentences, while the fact tag may be intended to apply to a smaller section of that, such as one sentence in the paragraph, or part of a sentence. The footnote may still be valuable in supporting other material in the paragraph (etc.), but the fact tag means that the person putting it there thinks that the particular sentence (or part of a sentence) still requires verification. Other people might disagree and argue that the footnote already supports that specific statement. That's fine: they can discuss it on the talk page, and if there's consensus to remove the fact tag it can be removed. This seems to me to be a reasonable way to use fact tags.

In the particular situation of that edit, there had been a discussion between you and me in which I had indicated that I found the statements hard to believe and that it would require an "overwhelming majority of sources" to support such a hard-to-believe claim. Note that WP:V says "Exceptional claims require exceptional sources". You replied that the overwhelming majority of sources did make that claim. You also replied you would work on adding "cited material", which I probably took to mean adding references to support the claim I was disputing, though now it seems you might not have meant that. After this conversation, adding the fact tags (which I did several days later) seems very reasonable to me. It wasn't intended to be antagonistic. It was intended to indicate to readers that the material was (in my opinion at least) unverified. I figured that when you added the additional sources, which I thought you were intending to add, you could remove the tags.

You said that the overwhelming majority of sources claim that advocates of reproductive rights work to protect women from gender discrimination, but I haven't seen a single source saying this. Again, this may be a difference of opinion as to who should do the homework. Since you want to add disputed material, I expect you (as per WP:V) to provide sufficient supporting references to convince all (or almost all) reasonable people of the claim. I also expect you to tell me which passages in the source support the claim, in your opinion, and I also think it would be reasonable for you to quote the passages on the talk page if you have access to the source but I don't. But apparently you think the onus is on me to find sources that state the opposite of the material you want to add; or to buy and read whole articles searching for the quote you've already seen, when you won't tell me what page it's on. That's not my interpretation of WP:V.

There may have been a misunderstanding about whether sources are considered "reliable". The JSTOR articles look respectable to me. When I asked for quotes from reliable sources, quotes from those same articles might have satisfied me just fine. I didn't mean to imply that they aren't "reliable". On the other hand, just because something is stated in a reliable source doesn't necessarily mean it's true. Some statements require prose attribution.

It seems to me that I've asked you for quotes many times and as far as I remember you haven't provided any quotes in response. Not only that, but as far as I remember you haven't replied at all: you haven't said that you're not going to provide quotes, or explained why you're not, or said that you might find some in the future, or in any way acknowledged my requests as far as I remember. If you want to insert material into an article which other editors dispute, I think you need to make some effort to convince other editors why the material should be added. I don't understand why you haven't replied to my requests for quotes. I've explained why I haven't provided sources that you asked me to provide: it's because I'm not (at the moment) trying to add any material that any other editors dispute, so there's no need for me to provide sources. I can still look for sources, in a general desire to improve the article, but I don't have a responsibility to find any particular sources or any sources at all.

I don't understand part of your post above. I don't know what "ASB" stands for, and I'm not sure what you're implying with "stalking horse". I began editing Female genital cutting as a result of seeing your post at User talk:Jayjg which seemed to be encouraging people to get involved in the debate there. There was nothing sneaky involved. If my opinion on some things happens to agree with Blackworm's, I can't help that. I can't just purposely change my opinions to something else.

Re heterosexual relations: It seems to me that if male-to-female transmission is much more likely than female-to-male, then a male having one act of sex outside a committed relationship is less likely to pick up any disease than a female doing the same thing. Subsequently, a couple having relations often would tend to have a higher rate of transmission between them due to the number of acts. So by that logic, perhaps a female having an act of sex outside a committed relationship is more likely to pass disease to her regular partner than a man doing the same thing. However, I don't think the article should say this. WP:NPOV says "as much as possible, without bias," which precludes sexist statements (because sexist is a subset of biassed) and which also precludes selecting what to say in a way that implies biassed conclusions. Besides, it would be OR unless a published source is found making the same argument. --Coppertwig (talk) 23:58, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

As always, thanks for taking the time to respond in detail. I don't have a lot of time right now to respond with reciprocal attention and detail and work on the request, perhaps we should table these issues and work on the request? Your sandbox or mine? Phyesalis (talk) 00:27, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't think it's possible to do mediation if you're shunning one of the participants. Please clarify your intention to go through mediation (or not). --Coppertwig (talk) 00:53, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Don't worry about how the section break is. I didn't even notice.

Sorry, I don't agree that "various reproductive rights have been established as human rights". Again, would you please provide the quote(s) that this is based on in your opinion? Even if it's quotes that have just been mentioned, I need you to tell me which quote(s) it is.

I would appreciate it if you would either strike out the comment about "stalking horse" or clarify it, providing details if it's an accusation.

You said there was an "apparent lack of good faith". Now that I've explained what happened from my point of view, do you still see it that way? --Coppertwig (talk) 02:16, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Thank you.

Thank you for defending the truth about my actions here (). I'll note, though, that I never explicitly asked Phyesalis to tell me how many editors Phyesalis contacted; I did ask Phyesalis to clarify Phyesalis' response to my suggestion to read WP:CANVAS, which seemingly implied Phyesalis only contacted two editors. Maybe this is nit-picking, but I would see a direct asking of the question of how many editors were contacted as stronger evidence of an accusation of violating CANVAS -- so I carefully avoided that. Thanks again. Blackworm (talk) 23:31, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Note: In case it's not clear, I am not calling for any amendments to your comments. Blackworm (talk) 23:36, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Missing archives

Thanks, I'll undelete them. Jayjg 03:24, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I realized you were watching my Talk: page quite closely, but thanks for stating it openly. I'm sure no harm was intended, and I didn't take offense. Jayjg 03:28, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Oppose response

I've replied there. Regards, Rudget. 15:56, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Replied again. Hopefully, I've communicated better this time. Rudget. 15:47, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Tea

I've invited you to WP:TEA. See January 2008. Thank you for your graceful acceptance of mediation. I'm sure your measured presence will have a calming effect on both of us. You have my esteem and appreciation. I'm sure your contributions over at the mediation request draft will be productive. Phyesalis (talk) 04:42, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

E-mail

You have e-mail, CT. -- Avi (talk) 18:50, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Change in RfA vote

Yes, I believe the protocol is to move your vote and discussion below to the Neutral section. -- Avi (talk) 00:01, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Just a Thank You

Thank you for proposing to merge This Page instead of removing it. Also, i'm sure that this part (http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=The_Code_of_Claw&oldid=183102775) was not copyright, becuase this was not removed yet. I have put it back. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Goldkingtut5 (talk • contribs) 03:26, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Re:re: I have read your message. I have listened to your comments, I do not want to start and edit war; i just want to state that you put something twice. Nothing offensive meant. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Goldkingtut5 (talk • contribs) 03:05, 12 January 2008 (UTC) Thanks. ∂☺1♂K∫ ₪&+(_)+5 (talk) 03:21, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Tea

Thanks, Coppertwig, that was very thoughtful of you. Jayjg 04:03, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

You're welcome, Jayjg. It's quite true. --Coppertwig (talk) 13:45, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Translation help for Safavid art

Answers at Talk:Safavid art, and at Discuter:Art safavide. Friendly yours. Pentocelo —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.15.92.33 (talk) 15:13, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

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Dear PalestineRemembered, re this discussion, where someone asked you to avoid using the word "immigrants" in this context and you indicated difficulty in finding acceptable words to use and you said "I will often refer to supporters of Israel as "the immigrants" ". Here I would like to try to help everyone compromise and get along with each other, so I'd like to try to help find a word or phrase people can agree on, although perhaps it's not likely I can come up with anything that hasn't already been suggested and rejected for one reason or another. I understand your frustration -- you've got to be able to use a word to be able to express what you want to say. Now, maybe I ought to know this already, but I'd appreciate it if you'd gently explain to me why you wouldn't use the term "Israelis" in that context. (As a reminder, there are now also the phrases suggested by Sm8900 (Steve): ("i would ask whether you could perhaps use a term such as "Israel supporters," "Israelis and their allies", or simply, "Members of Israeli society." it might even be fine to say "Israelis of a Zionist viewpoint," as using Zionist as an adjective is not really that bad.") --Coppertwig (talk) 14:29, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

With respect, it seems to me that I've already spent far too much time and effort answering questions and pussy-footing around what words I can use to describe quite easily understood concepts. I've mysteriously been included in the ArbCom on a massively problematical editor of a totally different persuasion. It could be time for the community to concentrate on real issues of editorial integrity. PR 17:53, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Re the question I asked you: I'm not insisting on an answer. I was trying to be helpful. --Coppertwig (talk) 18:14, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Re: Your suggestion re template and mediation

It's just an idea I've been thinking about. Although I used the controversial template as an example, we should think about using the WikiProject tags instead. It would be easy to implement, but difficult to get admins and mediators to come on board because it would mean that they would actually have to do the work rather than camping on the noticeboard. But, I'm sure there are people who would watch the categories and help out, which is why I think it has a chance. —Viriditas | Talk 19:38, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Jason Kane deletion

Thanks for looking into that. I've put up a much better page now. Hopefully it will be good enough to stick.

Thanks again Hortaculture (talk) 23:04, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Primes / rules / patterns / location

Sorry, but do you make any sense but a psedo-scientific survey that just stated incorrectly some mathematical results to conclude that he, the creator, discovered a new string theory? -- Magioladitis (talk) 01:03, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

This is the second line of the "article": "A Prime Number, if it is a Prime Number, has 1, 3, 7, 9 in its’ far right column." -- Magioladitis (talk) 01:05, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes. There are some correct, simple facts about prime numbers on the page. I've nominated it for deletion via prod. Some of it may be nonsense, but much of it is certainly not nonsense. Not appropriate for Misplaced Pages perhaps, but not nonsense. "Nonsense" is not to be used as a basket category for everything you think shouldn't be in Misplaced Pages for one reason or another.

That statement you quote is a simple fact about prime numbers other than 2. "Mathematically incorrect" is not the same thing as "nonsense". --Coppertwig (talk) 01:09, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Column in a number? He means digit I presume... and A prime number is always a primer number :) (Maybe similar to "A rose is a rose is a rose"?) Moreover, the last paragraph says everything: "I haven’t explored it, but there is a possibility that the study of digit strings which is equivalent to a f(x) function wave in mathematical terms when associated with numbers ( particles ) will give us a clue about chemical reactions / quantum world.". I admit that we may have a different definition for "nonsense". :) -- Magioladitis (talk) 01:14, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't know what definition you're using, but here's the one I'm using:

--Coppertwig (talk) 01:19, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the information. We agree that this article has no place in Misplaced Pages. I'll keep this definition in mind. Friendly, -- Magioladitis (talk) 01:23, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. Sorry if I sounded a bit brusque. I think it's important to use the gentlest possible deletion method. Good contributors are lost to the project when they experience quick deletion of their articles. I'm not sure if I would be here today if my first articles had been deleted within hours rather than weeks. Friendly greetings -- isn't Misplaced Pages great? --Coppertwig (talk) 01:29, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Udo's Choice Food Pyramids

Hi Coppertwig. I noticed you are the creator of the above article. Just to let you know I have nominated it for deletion. You can participate in the deletion discussion here. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 03:58, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

AfD nomination of Udo's Choice Food Pyramids

An editor has nominated Udo's Choice Food Pyramids, an article on which you have worked or that you created, for deletion. We appreciate your contributions, but the nominator doesn't believe that the article satisfies Misplaced Pages's criteria for inclusion and has explained why in his/her nomination (see also "What Misplaced Pages is not").

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Email

FYI, I've sent you an email. JoshuaZ (talk) 22:39, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

I replied by email (if I've retyped your email address correctly). --Coppertwig (talk) 12:47, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Rudget! (A big thank you to you) :)

Your note

Hi, Coppertwig. Thanks for your note. :) My opinion, such as it is, is here. Let me know if you want more. :D --Moonriddengirl 03:28, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

I've added a bit more. :) --Moonriddengirl 16:35, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

CSD stuff

I replied to your note at Template talk:Db-meta because the other section is getting long and convoluted. :) As far as changing the wording on the template is concerned, I'm not sure this is going to be that complicated to require creating CSD talk subpages. I'd be perfectly happy to offer up my sandbox for the purpose. It's at User:Moonriddengirl/sandbox. My thought is that once we discuss it, we can propose individual changes at the template talk pages with a note at talk:csd directing interested parties to those pages. I don't think we'll need our "workshop" retained for archival purposes, since it's really just a two-man work crew at this point. If you disagree, let me know, and I'll move what I've already done out of my sandbox to a more permanent subspace :) {{Db-nonsense}} seems fine as is to me. The first one I see that might need work is {{Db-vandalism}}. I'm watching your page for for response. :) --Moonriddengirl 15:54, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

I replied at Template talk:db-meta with a grateful "yes, please".

Nice sandbox, and LOL about trying to keep it out of the speedy-deletable category!! (Remember not to inactivate the actual templates when eventually editing them, though!) However, I've been criticized in the past for trying to have a limited number of editors editing a sandbox as part of a policy development process; and while there are significant differences between that situation and this one, it seems to me that there are also similarities, so it would be helpful to me if you would post a message to Misplaced Pages talk:CSD inviting anyone who wants to participate to come and edit the sandbox too.

I didn't mean a subpage; I meant putting a section header and a table on the talk page of WP:CSD. Maybe the table would take up too much space on the talk page. I may still make a table, either there, or in my own sandbox, perhaps just for myself to refer to. Actually, I think I'd like to make a table there, if others won't mind too much.

My preference is to copy the entire wording of each CSD criterion into the respective template. (Maybe even transclude it!) I'm willing to compromise, though. I do think the nonsense template needs revising; it's the one I'd seen misused a few times, for example see the "Primes / rules / patterns / location" thread above (quickly, before the article gets deleted via prod).

I haven't had time yet to look at your suggested wordings in much detail, but I may be pushing for longer wordings, incorporating more of the sense of the criteria. --Coppertwig (talk) 00:56, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

In that case, you may be right. :) I think we need to keep it to just the rules, or people won't read them. I do think that the space would be too long for the talk page, so I will move it out of my typical sandbox into a special one for the occasion, and we can invite others to participate. I hadn't figured, though, on our coming up with proposals and implanting them. I had merely thought to come up with a suggestion and then discuss further from there. Anyway, poor timing that it is, I'm going to be out of town from tomorrow until Monday with no internet access (sob). I'd appreciate it if we could wait to toss the idea out to others until I'm back and available to discuss it, if you don't mind. :) --Moonriddengirl 03:43, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

No problem. I've got tons of other stuff to do on-wiki and this frees my weekend to get some of them done. (I guess I don't see much distinction between a suggestion and a proposal; anyway the thing I was criticized for developing in a limited group wasn't a proposal either.) I may develop a table in one of my own sandboxes, but maybe not invite others to edit it, certainly not before you're back. How will you survive without the Internet? :-) --Coppertwig (talk) 13:13, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't know! I hate being disconnected. :/ Anyway, I've moved what I've got to User:Moonriddengirl/CSD templates. --Moonriddengirl 13:15, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure the context for which you were criticized previously; perhaps it was thought that you were forming a consensus pact on the sly or something? I don't know. In any event, I'm not one to try to bull through changes. If I'm involved in suggesting that something be altered and consensus isn't clear,I tend to quietly go away. :) To me, it's just a question of when we invite feedback, but I guess I don't this as a huge deal to begin with. We're only talking about bringing the templates up to date with current policy; there's no proposal to change policy of any kind. I guess the big question is whether it's better to put the entire criterion into each template or just to correct the snippet that there currently is. --Moonriddengirl 13:22, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Hi. I'm back. I have a new operating system. I feel totally lost. :) I did get your note, though, and I will be looking at specifics. --Moonriddengirl 14:55, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Tag! You're it! :) --Moonriddengirl 19:57, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Aww, gee, thanks!

Thank you, truly, for the response on my talk page. I was a bit taken aback by A's post, but I kept a number of your points in mind and tried to respond appropriately. Judging from your post, I must be improving! And thank you for the tea. I've had a bit of a family emergency, so I apologize for my slow responses here and on the mediation draft. I was wondering, would it be possible to discuss the unresolved issues on IRC (at some point in the near future)? I feel that if we could just talk this out, we could come to a reasonable solution.

As a side note, what is going on over at Female genital cutting? I've noticed that you and Blackworm have stepped back from the articles. I don't know if this is because of our dispute or what, but I appreciate it. However, whoever messed with all the Christian material did the article a great disservice. I'd support any one of us going in and fixing that. Phyesalis (talk) 00:09, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

You're quite welcome. You did very well. Speaking of improving: you may notice that at the beginning of the post I introduce myself to Andrew c. That's a habit I've developed quite recently as a result of what I learned from my interactions with you (i.e. I ran into trouble after having neglected to explain my role to you at the beginning.)

I'm sorry to hear that you're having another family emergency. I have lots of other areas of the wiki to concentrate on while waiting for you to get back to this.

I'm checking into whether I have access to IRC. There's also email and telephone.

I don't see any particular problem at FGC. I looked at what I think is the Christian section and it doesn't seem to have changed much. I think it's probably best to keep away from the articles for now and try to resolve the disputes we're already working on. --Coppertwig (talk) 02:09, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Re: Don't worry

Yeah i know, i'm following it on IRC right now pop by if you like, its #wikipedia-en. Thanks.  Sunderland06  17:39, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Re: Don't worry.

Don't worry about Rudget -- apparently it was just his cousin playing a joke with his account when he left his computer on. See AN and his talk page. --Coppertwig (talk) 17:42, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I have found out on IRC, thanks for telling me though. -- The Helpful One 17:44, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

RE:Don't worry

I'm speaking to him on IRC right now ;-)--Phoenix-wiki 17:48, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm going to have to arrange for an IRC connection for myself for times like this. It appears that I'm missing all the excitement. Well, maybe I'll go and get some editing done. :-) --Coppertwig (talk) 17:52, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Re: This and That

I don't know you much, but I don't want to see another admin drop by the wayside. I really do hope that Rlvese and Rudget do come back some time in the near future, as they were very good admins in my opinion. I just wanted to make the post at WP:AN to get my point across in midst of all the mess that has been caused over the last 24 hours. I hope my post didn't come across as if I was directing it towards a specific user, in fact, it's generally directed at everyone. Some people can get a little annoyed on Misplaced Pages - I think some just need to have a bit of tea and relax for a little bit. If your annoyed from something in the outside world, in my opinion you should stay of Misplaced Pages, and take your frustrations out of something else. Anyway that's my opinion. :)

Thanks, D.M.N. (talk) 12:41, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Tank Street Bridge, Brisbane

Hi, I am new to wikipedia contributions and recently created an entry for the new Tank St Bridge in Brisbane. I was wondering why you don't think it's a notable entry? Do you think it is only notable once it has been constructed? Or do you think all bridges are not notable in the wikipedia sense? Cheers, Paul Paulguard (talk) 00:33, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Hi! Thanks for your message. Welcome to Misplaced Pages. I like pedestrian bridges, and I've heard good things about Brisbane (if I remember right) as far as being a good place for pedestrians. It was with regret that I attached the notability tag because I felt that Misplaced Pages policy was compelling me to do so.

Basically, Misplaced Pages:Notability in Misplaced Pages is defined by whether there are reliable published sources giving information about the topic. I did some web searches and didn't find any, as far as I remember. But maybe you can. If you can find newspaper articles or other published sources (in print or online) and cite them as references in the article, then that will establish notability and as far as I'm concerned you can then delete the tag. Actually, I just did another web search now and had better luck than last time -- here's one! It only has a very brief mention of the bridge, though, so it hslpe but not a lot.

Let me know if there's anything I can help you with in terms of figuring out how Misplaced Pages works etc. --Coppertwig (talk) 00:42, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

I added it to the article as a reference. --Coppertwig (talk) 00:47, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Here is the main source for information: http://www.publicworks.qld.gov.au/showcase/tankstbridge.cfm Cheers, Paul Paulguard (talk) 04:11, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. I'm sorry I put the notability tag on in the first place. When I saw an article about a "pedestrian bridge" I was imagining something much, um, smaller. I've taken off the notability tag. It would still be good, though, to have at least one more reference which is from outside the government who are constructing the bridge: see if you can find a newspaper article about it or something. Doesn't have to be online, just listed as a reference.

In future, when creating articles you can often avoid the notability tag thing (or even speedy deletion) by just "asserting notability", i.e. making statements like "this is the biggest..." or "this is the first ..." or anything else special about the subject of the article. Not a guarantee -- some users may still demand references -- but I wouldn't have put the notability tag on if there'd been more info along those linesj, and once I'd patrolled it very likely nobody else would have either. (It was the amount of money the bridge costs that finally got it through to me that this is a big thing. Or is that just inflation and it really is just a little pedestrian bridge? Just kidding :-)

I plan to come back later and format the reference properly, that you gave me and I just put in. You can do that yourself if you like. --Coppertwig (talk) 13:31, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Reply note.

Just a note that I've replied to your recent messages on my talk page. (Feel free to delete this section when read.) Blackworm (talk) 03:27, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for offering adoption

Thanks a lot for adopting me. Of course I accept. I think that I already learned many things by doing. However, if I have any questions I will leave you a message. If you have any suggestions concerning my edits and the WikiProject Water supply and sanitation, please feel free to contact me. --Kerres (talk) 09:21, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the tip about GFDL license

I find the instructions page confusing. Lownen (talk) 20:17, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Preview button

You've made me think about it. I don't think anyone has ever complained about this to me before (racking my brain, I'm as sure as I can be about that, which is not 100% but nearly so). I know I read, long ago, comments by Ed Poor that given the progressive compression schemes and algorithms used by the software, disk space is not the problem. However, the edit history is a worry when there are fairly frequent edits and more than a couple of editors. This said, I think it's all habit, steadfastly remembering to click on thing! I will. Gwen Gale (talk) 00:18, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply. I'm sure I've seen several complaints about the preview button before. I forget whether they were complaining about me or about someone else. In any case, I've learned to try to be careful to remember to use it. I figure it's a trade-off: if I'm going to gain a lot by clicking "save page", for example making sure I don't lose a large amount of work by accident, then it's worth it. Otherwise, I figure I'm just editing once but a number of people have to look at the recent changes log and the page history, so it's worth saving them time. Similarly with edit summaries. Help:Show preview says "Saving the same article a large number of times in quick succession makes it harder for people to check what changed, and clogs up the page history. ... Saving only once is also a way of avoiding edit conflicts, as people will not see the article on recent changes, and therefore they are less likely to try editing it at the same time as you." However, I don't consider the preview button a very important issue. --Coppertwig (talk) 03:17, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Some background... I got my start as an active editor on Misplaced Pages in the so-called "Sollog wars" wherein I was much reinforced and even praised for taking a combative "supergirl" kind of attitude towards Sollog himself, who had created the page and along with many socks, engaged in a lively and often bitter debate over it for some time. I look back at the experience and sigh, because in some ways it tainted my perspective of how Misplaced Pages worked and truth be told, the experience led me (taught me to be) more combative and snippy on WP than I otherwise would have been (the Sollog issue was not dealt with through wiki-love and peace and looking back at this, say if he had waited two years to introduce his self promotional biographical article, it all would have been dealt with much more civilly and professionally on the WP side by all/most editors involved). Anyway, I carried this habit, of being combative when confronted with strong conflict and dispute, into my interactions on WP for several months. This was much reinforced when I didn't get help or support when I was taunted, baited and stalked by sundry, problematic editors (which led me to foreswear WP for months, at a time when WP was being criticized heavily in the media and which my comments here often reflected).

Meanwhile Misplaced Pages kept growing up and I grew back into it.

I would handle all of that so differently now. I guess I should have gone to more lengths to explain this straight off in my RFA but I truly thought the whole Wyss thing had blown over, given my edit history as User:Gwen Gale throughout the past 14 months. Moreover, I must say, I thought the Wyss talk page history was permanently deleted (for WP:RTV reasons, by Fred Bauder). Since I don't hold grudges or let past disputes fester, I had forgotten most of the details of my early interactions on Misplaced Pages and being unable to browse my Wyss history certainly contributed to this. Had I known the revisions could still be browsed by admins there is no question I would have looked into it and addressed my behaviour back then far more thoroughly before accepting the nomination. I've long seen my participation as User:Wyss as editorially very helpful (in the context of the time) but in terms of dispute resolution, a dismal failure. The lesson from all of this, obviously, is that civility trumps all on a collaborative online project like Misplaced Pages. Thanks for listening. Gwen Gale (talk) 18:18, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Hi from a while ago

Hi Coppertwig, we edited together on Pain and Nociception a while ago - a quick look at your contribution log shows what a calming effect you are having on your fellow editors. Congratulations. And I'll bet you havent been blocked for 3RRR - me either. A recent look at Pain and Nociception shows that someone with a very smooth pen found a way to easily express that with which we struggled. I'm envious of such facility. I've been editing on some edge of science articles - hasn't been relaxing at all. And then there is Serbophobia - no topic for a polite chat there sometimes. Editted Avogadro's number today - my chemistry teacher will be smiling down from whatever heaven he is in over that. (Wasn't the brightest chem student in the class. In fact I'm remembering a very attractive fellow student used to sit in front of me and I was somewhat distracted.) Anyway keep up the good work and drop by some time if you feel like it. SmithBlue (talk) 04:39, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Hi! Sorry, I got distracted and forgot to reply. Nice to hear from you. I still think "frequently" needs to be changed; maybe to "commonly" (at Pain and nociception). I might peek at some of the articles you're mentioning. Thanks (again?) for your oppose-closing vote at Simple English Wikiquote. --Coppertwig (talk) 19:44, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

I think you've earned this

		The Barnstar of Peace
		For your civility, your diplomacy, and your calm level-headedness in numerous discussions, I think you've earned this, the Barnstar of Peace. Jakew (talk) 13:22, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Adoption Reply

Yes! I would love to be adopted by you! Thank you very much. Get back to me on my talk page, thank you! Daniel.M (talk) 21:50, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Leni Riefenstahl

I did retract it a few hours earlier on his talk page. I've responded at the RFA. The "iceberg" metaphor wasn't meant as a negative characterization at all and before using the former term, I always commented on content. I'd also like to say that asking him if English was his native language was reasonable because I'd been working with him on the article for a long time and I wanted to determine if there was a communication or interpretation problem. In my professional work, over half of the people I deal with do not speak either English or French as a native language and petty, time-wasting misunderstandings are frequently found to have been a trivial problem in some translated nuance. I do appreciate all your input on this, however. You seem to have an above average talent for communicating online civility! Gwen Gale (talk) 02:36, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

I guess I should bring this up. The word vandalism is frequently mis-used at Talk:Abraham Lincoln by a group of editors who watch that page, to characterize good faith edits which might introduce critical sources about him. Whether or not those sources should be included is a question of consensus (which I supported by leaving the discussion). Out of politeness in my RFA, I didn't want to accuse admins interested in the content and PoV of that article, of abusing the word vandalism when talking to new editors there (not only me, it's one reason I went, my biggest objective was to at least get them to stop mis-using the word). I did mention the flash up at Abraham Lincoln when I accepted the nomination and anyone interested could go to the talk page and see for themselves how I was treated. Meanwhile, these editors came to my RFA anyway, which I question. I was attacked so aggressively at AL, for suggesting so little, my reverts do look like a brief flash of edit warring and I shouldn't have handled it that way (which is why I took a break from the article on my own). I think these editors sincerely believe they are helping Misplaced Pages (AGF) but the two admins among them have muddled, IMHO, their admin and editor roles. I can offer diffs, though I don't want "tit for tat" here, I want peace. I bring this up because you (reasonably) don't agree with my use of the word disruption, when other editors giving their opinions at my RFA have been inappropriately using the word vandalism at Abraham Lincoln. Gwen Gale (talk) 03:11, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't see what any of the above has to do with me. --Coppertwig (talk) 03:23, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Your criticisms of me, your many questions and your participation in the discussion of my RFA. We don't need to go on about it though! Thanks again and all the best to you :) Gwen Gale (talk) 03:26, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, my comment above wasn't very apt and I've struck it out. It was only ever intended to refer to the second of your two messages above. By criticisms I think you mean the analysis of your contribs that I posted at your RfA. If you're interested, I can give you some advice which I think may be helpful to you if you ever find yourself going through an RfA again. I had already replied at your RfA to your first message above, and I've struck out some of my words there. --Coppertwig (talk) 01:12, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Mediation

I haven't read your comments yet but I will certainly keep the apology in mind. Thank you for that. Personally, I'm trying to allow chunks of time to pass before I respond in the discussion. --Phyesalis (talk) 18:40, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Added material to mediation draft

I made some changes to the RR/FGC mediation draft, and alert you to ensure that I haven't subtly misrepresented your position with any edits. Blackworm (talk) 22:38, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Techniques for handling emotions when editing

For anyone interested, here is a page I just wrote on techniques for handling emotions when editing. These are techniques I use, that others may also find useful. --Coppertwig (talk) 00:52, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for participating in my RfA!

		Thanks for participating in my RfA!
		Although it failed 43/27/0, I'm happy because the outcome has been very helpful in many meaningful ways. Moreover your input alerted me to your understandable concerns about civility and the characterisation of others' edits in subsequent edit summaries and discussions. I will take heed and carefully address them. All the best, Gwen Gale (talk) 05:28, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

What a lovely picture! Calm and serene. --Coppertwig (talk) 20:11, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Committed identity

See Template:User committed identity and Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2007-05-14/Committed identity and Commitment scheme. My commitment string is 138c47efb78b28ef5b3a8ddf36958dae720b61c9 --Coppertwig (talk) 20:11, 26 January 2008 (UTC) See also for SHA-1 calculation --Coppertwig (talk) 20:13, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Opposing view for NCM material

In the mediation page you write, that the source already provided includes material expressing an opposing point of view, and that that also needs to be represented for WP:NPOV. Was this brought up in Talk:Reproductive rights? If so, I missed it. I read the Salon article again, which I assume is the source you're referring to (since I don't expect the NCM page itself to present criticism of its view), and the best I could make out is that the author implies the case (not the view) is "half-baked," and at another point, that it is bad because it may take time and attention away from the issue of women's right to abortion. In any case, I certainly don't see how the statement that certain reproductive rights of men are not legally recognized is challenged. In response to undue weight concerns, I trimmed the section in a way that removes an explicit presentation of their views. If a more specific view is challenged, then that specific view from the NCM would also need to be presented, in my opinion. Comments? Suggested edits? Blackworm (talk) 22:31, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm talking about here at User talk:Phyesalis/Mediation request where I said "Here's a quote from the Times article". I may be confused about which material that you want to add that I'm responding to. On the Mediation request page you say you want to add two sentences about NCM, but give a link to where there are more than two sentences. I thought we had been talking about a whole paragraph. I'm not saying that the statement certain reproductive rights of men are not legally recognized is challenged; but the Times article, and the paragraph you want to add to RR, are about the idea of changing things and starting to legally recognize those rights. That's what requires an alternative point of view. The author/editor of the Times article realized this, I think, and included that alternative view; we should too, though possibly much more briefly than the quote I gave. --Coppertwig (talk) 22:42, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

The link in the mediation request originally pointed to the diff of my original edit, but I had already trimmed the material to two sentences (see the article). The link now points directly to the article section, the last paragraph of which is in question, and contains two sentences. The Times source was also stripped out in my trimming of the material, so I assumed you were discussing the Salon source. Given that you had not objected in Talk:RR, I don't feel it appropriate that this should be part of the mediation request. I think we could easily come to an agreement about an opposing view, however note that the Times article quote presents an opposing view to a view not presented in the article at the moment; if we were to include it, we would first need to expand on the specifics of the NCM's view, making the paragraph longer. I got the impression both you and Phyesalis wanted the paragraph shorter, not longer, but I don't object to a more detailed presentation of both the NCM's specific stance, and the opposing view presented in the Times article. Blackworm (talk) 11:31, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Our long and winding conversation

Tag! --Moonriddengirl 13:42, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

I see: "Tag" as in "You're it!" Anyway, "Guten Tag" to you!  :-) Thanks for your reply on your talk page. --Coppertwig (talk) 13:48, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, indeed. Your turn to pursue again. :) Not wanting to split the conversation, I'll just say let me know when you're ready to approach the talk CSD crowd about these templates. Oh, and I'm not going to pursue clarification of G4 until this is done. I've developed a notion that there's far less confusion when I approach one thing at a time on a given Misplaced Pages space. It's hard enough seeing conversations through and on topic as it is! :D --Moonriddengirl 14:06, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Attribution and a sandbox

In case you're interested, Moonriddengirl, here's my summary of the incident which is the reason I'm declining your invitation in the particular current situation to edit your userpage unless you extend the invitation more generally. Maybe I'm over-reacting, but I prefer to err on the side of propriety.

It was in the days leading up to the big straw poll on whether to replace some of Misplaced Pages's core policy pages with the single page Misplaced Pages:Attribution. An essay had been prepared outlining the arguments in support of the merge. There was a discussion on the poll talk page about preparing an essay summarizing the arguments against the merge, and it was suggested that I do such a userspace page and that I "invite other editors with oppose rationales expressed around here to edit it" -- I see now that I may have missed a distinction in those words.

Two editors objected to the suggestion that I "moderate". Two or three editors seemed to be encouraging me to go ahead. I said, "I'm not moderating or mediating between pro-merge and anti-merge sides of the debate. Rather, I expect to create a user page..." It wasn't clear to me whether this addressed the objections or not; however, nothing had been said to convince me that what I planned to do violated any policy or guideline.

I then created the page User:Coppertwig/Stability of policy and generally invited "users who are opposed to the merge, or opposed to some aspect of the merge, to edit it according to rules on the talk page of that page."

Some users in favour of the merge edited the userpage or its talk page, and I criticized them for that.

Subsequently someone made a report to AN/I titled "Disruption and polarization by User:Coppertwig". I then spent some time reading policies and guidelines. I didn't find anything giving a definitive answer, but I gained the impression that essays are written by a single user or by all users, not by limited groups of users, and said so at AN/I. I then changed the rules and asked that I be the only one to edit the userpage, with comments and suggestions invited on its talk page. A copy of the userpage was eventually used in the poll documentation to help poll participants familiarize themselves with the debate.

(Incidentally, I never meant to imply that Seraphimblade wasn't an "uninvolved admin". I later explained to Seraphimblade that I seemed to have missed noticing his comment, which was, in effect, the admins's ruling in the AN/I report.)

(Also incidentally, I still find it amusing where I realized I had just "strongly disagreed" with Jimbo Wales.) --Coppertwig (talk) 16:43, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Wow! I can see why you'd be gunshy. :D --Moonriddengirl 20:00, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

AfDSort

Thanks for the note, and for the support. He's the first other user I've seen with the script, so that's awesome - I'm glad to see it getting some use from others, as it means there's less sorting for me to do! Thanks again, UltraExactZZ ~ Evidence 03:42, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

I'd say the same - thank you for your support. UltraExactZZ ~ Evidence 04:33, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Barnstar

		The Original Barnstar
		For your extraordinary efforts to represent Misplaced Pages well and ensure fair treatment of a user with a bad first experience at Ggggggggggggggg12. -- Moonriddengirl 15:25, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Wiki Wiffle Bat Award

I, Heelop (talk) 02:29, 31 January 2008 (UTC), proudly present you with the Wiki Wiffle Bat Award. If you consent to receiving this award, it will be displayed on your user page.

		The Wiki Wiffle Bat
		For your exceptional logic, endurance, civility, and especially neutrality in the face of relentless irrationality. Heelop (talk) 01:36, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Thank you very much for the barnstars, everyone. They look fine on my talk page. I don't display barnstars on my userpage. --Coppertwig (talk) 23:06, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

The Catalyst in Society right-to-vanish case

Here, the user requested the right to vanish; his original username, which is his real name, is present in the signature. He also explains here that he doesn't want web searches on his name to return these Misplaced Pages pages.

Here, the user's talk page was moved by a bureaucrat from his real name to a pseudonym.

The user seems to have left the wiki (See edit summary); the last few edits by Catalyst in Society (talk · contribs) on Dec. 17, 2007 were to change his signature on some posts from his real name to the pseudonym.

I edited some talk pages to change his signature to the pseudonym.

An earlier discussion of this situation can be seen in this thread. --Coppertwig (talk) 23:43, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Ultraexactzz is now an Administrator

My RfA was successful, and closed with 44 Supports, 6 Opposes, and 1 Neutral. For your support, you have my thanks - I fully intend to live up to the lofty yet not-a-big-deal responsibility you have granted me. For those who opposed my candidacy, I value your input and advice, and hope that I may prove worthy of your trust. Special thanks to both Rudget and bibliomaniac15 for their expert coaching and guidance. I look forward to serving the project, my fellow editors, the pursuit of higher knowledge, et cetera, et cetera. Again, you have my thanks. UltraExactZZ ~ Evidence 01:32, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

RE:Archive Boxes

Hey, thanks for noticing that. No wonder that didn't work.--Sunny910910 03:10, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

You're welcome. Always glad to help out. Thanks for replying. --Coppertwig (talk) 12:49, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Re: Help

Alright. It seems that the CURRENTUSER won't work here. Thanks for your help anyway. Tell me if you think of anything else! —Signed by KoЯnfan71 _{Sign Here!} 02:28, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Adminship?

Hey there, I was noticing your post on ANI that said you weren't an admin, but from what I can tell by your talk page and a brief look into your contribs, I don't really see any reason why you're not. Have you thought about trying an RfA? I'd be happy to nominate you if you like. Drop me a line whenever you like. :) GlassCobra 18:24, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

I replied by email. --Coppertwig (talk) 19:28, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Incidentally, I don't know (nor necessarily need to know) what your e-mail to him said, but I've wondered the same thing. --Moonriddengirl 14:29, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

CSD templates

I figured since the thread was long on my page and the templates moved to yours, I might as well bring the conversation here.

The only major issue I see is that the conversation looks dauntingly complex. That's one of the reasons I had thought we would discuss them individually and then propose them individually at the template pages. Even now, while working on it, I hit the image section and my brain thinks, "Isn't it time for breakfast?" That said, there may well be some editors out there who will look at your chart and willingly wade into it rather than heading off to shorter tasks. :) And it is very well organized and structured for clarity. Its complexity is innate, but I do worry that such a huge chunk may discourage participation.

With G12, the current wording could probably use a semicolon. "as an apparent copyright infringement of {{{url}}}; the material was introduced at once by a single person, there is no non-infringing content on either the page or its history worth saving and there is no credible assertion of public domain, fair use, or free license".

With A5, what do you think of "is a dictionary definition or an article for which there is an Articles for deletion decision to transwiki, and it has been properly moved to Wiktionary or another wiki, with the author information recorded." Personally I feel that might be a little more clear.

I like your r3 revision.

I9 could probably do with the addition of "that does not have a license compatible with Misplaced Pages"

Perhaps you should simplify C1 to "as a category that has been empty for at least four days...." rather than the current "is empty, has been empty"?

U1 I think needs revision. Current proposal: "as a user page or subpage requested to be deleted by the user with whom it is associated, except for rare cases of administrative need to retain the page." Perhaps something like: "as a user page or subpage requested to be deleted by the user with whom it is associated. (Note that in rare cases such may need to be retained for administrative reasons. See blahblah)"

Under p2, we have a comma splice after the word "article" which should be removed.

Okay. You're up. :) --Moonriddengirl 14:28, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Here are some ideas re where to have the conversation. I think having it at each template talk page would probably spread things out too much, but maybe not.

• Move all comments off the page with the tables onto its talk page, and have the discussion there.
• Form one page for each table, e.g. one page for general, one for articles, etc., possibly grouping a couple of the shorter tables onto one, e.g. categories and portals or whatever. Have the discussion on the talk pages of those pages. I think I prefer that option. (User pages, or subpages of the policy page? How about the latter, since it will be a policy discussion that will need to be archived?)
• Have a page with one or more such tables, and on its talk page make a whole lot of mini tables each showing just one row of the table, with discussion of each immediately below each.
• Leave my page of tables static, and just have discussion on Talk:CSD and/or at the template talk pages.

Note that the proposed change to db-meta requires changing a lot of templates around the same time. There should be consensus overall first. (True consensus, n days of discussion, m editors agreeing with only k disagreeing... :-)

Semicolon in G12: good idea; or a colon. I put a colon.

A5: Based on your suggestion I changed it to "as an article that is a dictionary definition or an article for which there is an Articles for deletion decision to transwiki, after it has been properly moved to Wiktionary or another wiki and the author information recorded. " I think that's what you said except that I put "after": the whole grammar changes because of the db-meta change.

Re r3: Thanks. I struggled with that one.

Re u1: I was tired when I did some of these. I've shortened it, since the actual CSD is shorter in one place than the current template (the opposite of the usual situation!). Now I've put " as a user page or subpage requested to be deleted by its user. (Note that in rare cases such may need to be retained for administrative uses. See ..."

P2:OK, I got rid of the comma splice, but I also shortened the whole thing, without losing any meaning, I think. Looking at what I had there, my mind glazed over. I think this reads more easily: "as a portal based on a topic which does not have a non-stub header article plus at least three non-stub articles on the topic. " In this case it's the opposite of making the templates conform more closely to the CSD, but so what -- the point is to make them as good as possible in all ways. --Coppertwig (talk) 22:09, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

If we're sending people to the table page in your user space, I think having the talk page serve for discussion is probably a good thing. That said, I'm also inclined to like the idea of creating a different page for each table, like you. That would make it seem less daunting, so people don't freak and flee. :D You have invested far more energy in this than I have, so I bow to your decision there. As long as people do talk, it doesn't so much matter where. Your changes seem good to me. --Moonriddengirl 22:26, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Actually, now I'm leaning towards your original suggestion, using the talk page of each template, with discussion of the db-meta wording change being at the talk page of db-meta. I had been thinking before of having talk pages with sections to discuss each template, but I thought it might get complicated if the discussions were to get long -- archiving the talk page would be more complicated. One idea is to transclude a number of template talk pages into one page (if the discussions are relatively short) the way AfD discussions are transcluded together. I'm not sure if I know how to do that. --Coppertwig (talk) 01:57, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure that it wouldn't be easier just to divide up the talk. I really doubt that most (possibly even any) of these are going to be controversial in any way. :) --Moonriddengirl 02:40, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

OK. Should I set it up as my own user pages for discussion? (they can always be moved to a policy talk page or talk archive later.) Otherwise, it's a chicken-and-egg problem, trying to get consensus on where the discussion will be before the discussion starts. Maybe you're right, there won't be much discussion. --Coppertwig (talk) 02:43, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, that depends. Are you going to propose the pages at the existing template pages? If so, I think the discussion could take place there. It would be a simple enough matter to go to Template talk:Db-nonsense and just put in, "I propose changing this template to bring it in line with current CSD policy. Current wording of policy is blahblah. I propose changing the template to read blahblah." Again, I don't see this as a hugely contentious situation, since this is not about changing policy, only about reflecting it more accurately. --Moonriddengirl 02:58, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

How about this: on each template talk page I'll put a brief notice that there's a proposed wording change and telling where I suggest discussion to be (one link). On the following five talk pages I'll put:

"I suggest that discussion take place in the following locations:

• Of the proposed change in wording to db-meta and the resulting change in the first couple of words of many of the other templates, at Template talk:db-meta.
• Of other proposed changes in wording to CSD templates related to G1 to G12 (general), at Template talk:db-nonsense (i.e. at G1)
• related to A1 to A7 (articles), at Template talk:db-nocontext (i.e. at A1)
• related to I1 to I9 (images etc.) at Template talk:db-redundantimage (i.e. at I1)
• related to redirects (R1 to R3), categories (C1 to C3), userpages (U1 to U3), templates (T1 to T3) and portals (P1 to P2), at Template talk:db-redirnone (i.e. at R1)."

The last group involves 14 templates in 5 types of template. I'll also put the corresponding tables on the last four talk pages. Plus a notice at Talk:CSD inviting discussion; and possibly at the Village Pump too. What do you think? --Coppertwig (talk) 13:24, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Wait -- I think you mean that's unnecessary. If I'm going to put a message on the template talk page anyway, I might as well propose the actual change there and have discussion be there. If people want to make more general comments (e.g. "I oppose all of these changes because...") where will they put them? db-meta? How about "Changes in wording to many CSD templates is being proposed, mainly to make them conform more closely to the CSD; also to match a proposed shortened db-meta. We suggest discussing the wording of this template here, and using Template talk:db-meta for more general discussion of the changes. Proposed new wording: ... (from Moonriddengirl and Coppertwig)" and then I would sign normally. I was thinking we would both sign, but that would be extra work for you. :-) --Coppertwig (talk) 13:53, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

<reset indent>I don't mind the extra work, but I don't think we need to both sign. :) I just don't see it as that formal a business, since, again, this isn't proposing a change to any kind of policy. In fact, if I were more bold, I'd probably just make the changes to many of them, as I did to a couple. Only a few that I see may invite conversation. I'm more of a talk first, change later kind of girl, though. I'd probably propose each change at the appropriate template page and note that we had done so at Talk:CSD. I might leave language at the template pages something like this: "We are suggesting revising each of the db templates for clarity and to conform to current policy at CSD. If you'd like to discuss the change to this particular template, please do so here. To discuss generalities, you might want to join in at (pointer to place on talk:csd)." At talk:CSD, I'd say, "We are suggesting revising the db templates for clarity and to conform to current policy at CSD. A lot of them are out of date and don't line up with current language. It's a bit complex, since there are so many, so to simplify we've placed the proposed language revision at the various pages. (brief form link to those templates). You can view the whole lot of them at (link to your workshop), but if you'd like to discuss specific language issues with any of them, please do it at the template talk pages so that conversation stays together. If you'd like to discuss the changes more generally, this is probably a good place. We're suggesting at the template talk pages that anyone who sees this issue there do the same." --Moonriddengirl 16:22, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

I may be a little on the busy side for a day or two. Feel free to go ahead and set things up that way meanwhile if you like; otherwise I expect I will do it in a couple of days. I was thinking of asking another user for advice, but since you seem confident that it's not a big deal and that that's a good way to do it, I guess I'll just go with that. It seems quite reasonable to me. --Coppertwig (talk) 00:48, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

All righty. If you don't get it before then, I'll try to get to it tomorrow. :) --Moonriddengirl 02:26, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Okay. I'm working on it. I'm not going to propose the change to meta, since it doesn't fall into line with the purpose of the proposal...updating language. It doesn't matter if meta is updated for the purposes of changing presentation in other templates, since it isn't transcluded in any way into those. --Moonriddengirl 13:37, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Now that I'm trying to actually work on this, I'm finding it less practicable than I anticipated. That's a whole lot of template talk pages to coordinate with talk:CSD. So I'd like to suggest a different approach. First, I think we should remove the meta suggestion as per my last note. It doesn't fall in line with the proposal to update language and may muddy the waters. It is a separate entity and so doesn't really matter. Second, I'd like to direct the folk at talk:CSD to the proposal page with a request for comments to be made on the proposal page's talk page. I'll leave a note at each of the template talk pages doing the same thing. The only real danger I see here as mentioned above is that the conversation will become unworkably sprawling. To resolve that, I think we should probably go with your earlier proposal of subdividing types so that we have several CSD proposal pages. Thoughts? --Moonriddengirl 13:58, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

User pages, or subpages of talk:CSD? In either case, what will they look like once all the discussions are archived? How about asking someone more experienced for advice? I have someone in mind, but if you would like to select someone to ask that's OK too. Perhaps someone who has participated at Talk:CSD recently. --Coppertwig (talk) 22:45, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't know that it matters whether they're in userspace or project space. I'm not quite sure what you mean by "what will they look like". :) And, sure, I have no trouble with your asking input from somebody else. --Moonriddengirl 23:03, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

I asked Seraphimblade for advice. By what they'll look like, I mean mainly what will be the names of the pages containing the eventual archived discussions. --Coppertwig (talk) 23:41, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

See Seraphimblade's reply below at User talk:Coppertwig#Thanks!. By the way, I don't agree about removing the meta suggestion. It affects the wording not only for the first couple of words, but in some cases later in the sentence too: it changes the grammatical structure. If it's going to be changed, it will require consensus and changing a lot of templates at once. I think if we're going to have a big discussion about template wording anyway, this is the time to include the suggestion about changing meta. If we were going to remove the meta suggestion, we'd have to rework all the template wordings. Not a lot, but still. If the meta suggestion is going to be rejected I'd like to see a substantive reason for rejecting it. I suggest making subpages named:

To-do list

• Misplaced Pages talk:Criteria for speedy deletion/Templates (general)
• Misplaced Pages talk:Criteria for speedy deletion/Templates (articles)
• Misplaced Pages talk:Criteria for speedy deletion/Templates (images)
• Misplaced Pages talk:Criteria for speedy deletion/Templates (other)

and also inviting discussion at Misplaced Pages talk:Criteria for speedy deletion#Proposed template wording changes (section to be created) for general discussion about the changes and for discussion of the proposed db-meta change. To-do list:

• Done links in tables to templates (Thanks, Moonriddengirl, you're a step ahead of me. And yes, the typo was funny.)
• Done notice at top of User:Coppertwig/CSD (which won't be much used anyway, but still.)
• Done create subpages
• Done Adjust links in subpages to point to section in WT:CSD
• Done copy tables into subpages
• Done put links in subpages to the other discussions
• Done links on template talk pages to the discussions
• Done(except...) noinclude notices on template pages with links to the discussions

  (G1-G12 done except db-spam) (A1-A8 done) (I1-I9 done) (R1-R3, C1-C3 U1-U3, T1-T3, P2 done)

• noinclude notices on protected templates (db-meta, db-spam)
• Done create section at Misplaced Pages talk:Criteria for speedy deletion; put links to the subpages
• Done Village pump notice? (here)
• Done hatnote at the top of WT:CSD as suggested by Seraphimblade
• Done notify Seraphimblade
• Done link from my userpage
• Anything I forgot?

--Coppertwig (talk) 03:12, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't have strong feelings about meta. I don't think it has anything to do with the other templates. Each of the templates is distinct and separately written at its own page--at least, all the ones that I copied for my example page were. :) I don't think we need to revise meta in order to reword all the template wordings; I think meta is simply a general template to serve in the absence of a specific notice. That said, if you want to work on revising it now, that's fine with me. It's just a stylistic choice and is not related to our specific goal of bringing templates in line with CSD.

Your subpage dividers seem fine. I wouldn't haul village pump in unless it turns out to be surprisingly controversial because, again, this isn't a policy change, but just a change of templates to reflect policy. I'm very careful to discuss policy and guideline changes before implementing them, but some template changes are just do and go for me. :) But again, maybe this is going to turn out to be a much bigger deal than I'm envisioning. I presume you see that I've already linked the tables to the templates—all except meta, which you've now added. The rest should be fairly simple, but it's getting on to bedtime in my part of the world. :) If you want to get started, I'll catch up later. Otherwise, I'll pick up with you again tomorrow. --Moonriddengirl 03:28, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure you understand about the db-meta change. Every single one of the other templates transcludes db-meta, therefore a change in wording in db-meta changes the wording of every other template. My db-meta proposal is to shorten the db-meta wording by several words. This requires grammatical changes in all the other templates -- otherwise the sentences won't make sense. The proposed wordings listed in the table won't make sense if implemented with the current db-meta wording. The proposed db-meta change is just one of many changes we're (or I'm) proposing, and is less important than other changes, some of which are important for bringing the templates in line with the policy. I happen to like the db-meta change; I think it's worthwhile to remove several fairly uninformative words from templates that are read many, many times. I realize it might be rejected and the proposed wordings may all have to be adjusted to fit the current db-meta. But I'd like to put it out there as a proposal, anyway. Or to put it another way, I plan to put it out there as a proposal, even if you don't support it. I haven't heard any reasons yet for not making that change. OK, never mind village pump, at least for now. Yes, thanks for linking to the templates from the tables. I marked it "done" above. Now I can use those links to quickly watchlist all the templates. I'm logging off pretty much now. --Coppertwig (talk) 03:45, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I'll have time beginning approx 7 Feb 23:00 (UTC) and can set everything up at that time, but perhaps if we still have some details to iron out first I'll wait longer.

I forgot, or didn't know, that db-meta is used by itself as well as being transcluded into all the other templates. Also I didn't realize that it wasn't clear from the table setup how the db-meta change affects the other templates. New suggestion:

• db-meta to maintain its current look, wording and functionality
• The words "The reason given is:" to be removed from the display of the other templates (for brevity)
• To accomplish this, a new template, e.g. Template:speedybase to contain almost all of what's in db-meta now
• db-meta to transclude speedybase and add "The reason given is:"
• the other templates to transclude speedybase instead of transcluding db-meta; therefore they will not have the words "The reason given is:"

This makes it easier to make the transition: as the wording of each template is changed to match the new grammatical structure, at the same time it's changed to transclude speedybase instead of transcluding db-meta. So they can be changed one at a time without ever displaying mismatched grammar.

I'm sorry, I'd forgotten you consider these things "suggestions" rather than "proposals" and will try to remember to use that wording.

I could change each row of the table to contain more of the displayed wording of each template, to make the db-meta suggestion more obvious. For example, for G2 test it could list the current wording as "This page may meet Misplaced Pages’s criteria for speedy deletion. The reason given is: It is a test page" and the suggested wording as "This page may meet Misplaced Pages’s criteria for speedy deletion as a test page". Maybe it's worth doing that to make it clear that that's what I/we am/are suggesting. --Coppertwig (talk) 12:19, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Arbitrary divider

Talk about sprawling conversations. And this is just the two of us. :)

• You're right. I did not notice that meta is transcluded in the other templates and, in fact, I would have sworn in open court it wasn't because I was sure I had copied the language from the code. Obviously, I didn't. It's been a while since we started. :) I certainly didn't mean to imply above that I didn't support the change, only that I thought it a separate issue from what we're up to. If you want to revise meta, that's okay. I don't have strong feelings about meta, although I have considered that it would require new practices of those who use it singly. (I encounter them regularly; I'd guess that for some people who don't use automated helpers find it easier to remember meta than the individual templates.) Right now, they tend to drop in a single word: nonsense, non-notable. Proposing a new speedy base would be one way to keep their usage the same, but it would also add yet another layer of complexity to conversation. (Sounds great to simplify the templates, though!) I have observed that complex conversations on Misplaced Pages tend to bog down. But, again, I don't have strong feelings about it. I'd be happy just changing the wording to add criteria language after the colon, the way I had done in my examples. I'll be happy if your meta change can be harmoniously implemented. As long as the templates are updated to reflect current language, it's good to me. To me, that's the point. However you want to suggest we reach that goal is fine with me.

• You really threw me with this one: "I'm sorry, I'd forgotten you consider these things "suggestions" rather than "proposals" and will try to remember to use that wording." I had to go back to my note from the 18th of January to figure out what you were talking about. :) My point then (as best I remember) wasn't about language; it's simply about the formality of the process. I don't care if you call it a suggestion or a proposal. Proposal is the word I used yesterday when trying to draft a notice of all this. I was responding specifically to the section of your note then about "a limited number of editors editing a sandbox as part of a policy development process". What I had intended to convey was that I regarded this project of ours as a very casual procedure, a starting point for conversation with others rather than an effort to craft big changes which we then intend to sneak in as a consensus of two. While I respect now and respected then your desire to be more circumspect, I don't see a lot of room for misinterpretation of our intentions here. That clarified, I'm not at all sure what I said yesterday to bring that back to your mind. Was it about the village pump? If so, I suppose it is related. I don't see this as a big deal. If there's no feedback at talk:csd, we may want to pump it just to give others opportunity to respond. This is about language merely; it's not a sweeping change. It almost falls under the category for being bold: "make sure the wording is accurate", but bold says, "Before editing templates or categories, consider proposing any changes on the associated talk pages and announcing the proposed change on pages of appropriate WikiProjects." That's what we're doing. Proposing it on the associated talk pages of the template; bringing it up at talk:csd. It if were a policy or guideline, I'd head over to the village pump. Unless it was a very small one, like my recent change to A7 (what, two months ago now?), discussed entirely at talk:csd.

• That said, if you want to propose a new speedy base template, maybe we should village pump it. I have some experience with changing template wording. I have no experience whatsoever with proposing new templates. I have no idea how big a deal that may or may not be.

Have I got everything? :) --Moonriddengirl 13:52, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I gotta rush right now, but: maybe you didn't say anything yesterday to remind me re suggestion vs. proposal; maybe I just remembered when starting to think about writing the wording of an announcement. Whatever. More later. --Coppertwig (talk) 13:59, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm willing to be bold and state that creating a new template is not a big deal. In fact, maybe I'll just go ahead and create it; it can always be deleted again if the consensus is to not use it. Village pumping whether to create it would be almost like village pumping whether to create a new article. Or even more so. :-)

I'm planning to go ahead and put more complete wording into the tables, to prevent others from missing the suggestion to delete "The reason given is". Some templates may still have "notes" or other words that are not shown in the table and that may not necessarily need to be changed. --Coppertwig (talk) 00:04, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Okay. Templates are not my thing. :) Well, they are. I've made tons of them, but all in my userspace. :D --Moonriddengirl 01:34, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm running out of time, so I won't get to set up the discussion pages now after all. Now I expect to do it starting near the end of Feb. 8 sometime on Feb. 9 (UTC)13:23, 8 February 2008 (UTC). I've nearly finished putting the beginnings of the wordings into the tables; and I've reversed the italics, in order to continue to make it easy to find the unique part of the wording, but without implying that it's a direct quote. --Coppertwig (talk)

I put a new notice at the top of User:Coppertwig/CSD. Perhaps it can just be copied to each of the subpages (or it could be modified; not sure if we need all the links to previous discussion for example.) --Coppertwig (talk) 02:13, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I was bold and created Template:Speedybase. :-) --Coppertwig (talk) 13:27, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I expect to create the pages and links around 13:00-14:00.

At the top of the discussion pages, I plan to put most of the same stuff that's at the top of User:Coppertwig/CSD but not listing all the links to previous discussion; instead I'll put someething like "Links to previous discussion can be found here." (i.e. at my CSD page.) and "People may edit the table and change the suggested wordings."

For the templates:

<noinclude>:''Modified wording for this template is being discussed ].''</noinclude>

<noinclude>:''Modified wording for this template is being discussed ].''</noinclude>

<noinclude>:''Modified wording for this template is being discussed ].''</noinclude>

<noinclude>:''Modified wording for this template is being discussed ].''</noinclude>

Hatnote for top of WT:CSD:

"Discussion of wording of speedy-deletion templates, including proposed new wording (Feb. 2008), is on subpages for general, articles, images and other (redirects, categories, userpages, templates, portals)."

--Coppertwig (talk) 02:57, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

I made some last-minute changes to User:Coppertwig/CSD, including changes in wording of G11, G12, i3, i7, p2. Let me know if those changes are OK. --Coppertwig (talk) 04:00, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Looks like all systems are go to me. :) --Moonriddengirl 17:25, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

I put a hatnote on nonsense, but I'm not generally comfortable placing hatnotes on template pages. I'll put notes on the template talk pages, and if you feel hatnotes are a good idea for templates as well I'll leave that up to you. People who are watchlisting the templates will see the notes on the talk pages. People who use the templates probably don't often look at the template page. --Moonriddengirl 17:56, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

No problem. Thanks a lot for helping. I think I will put in the hatnotes. --Coppertwig (talk) 18:04, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

I've got all the general talk pages done. I'm heading onto articles now. --Moonriddengirl 18:05, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Great! It's fun doing this together. I'm marking things done in the to-do list above. --Coppertwig (talk) 18:07, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Me, too. :) This is the perfect opportunity to use my own little type of templates, which made placing notices at the talk pages easy. --Moonriddengirl 18:33, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

To use your what? How did you do all those notices so fast? I'm being slowed down by RL a bit. --Coppertwig (talk) 18:36, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

I make lots of little templates. I templated the notices in my sandbox, here, so all I had to do was paste {{subst:User:Moonriddengirl/sandbox}} into each page and, voila, gives me dividers and everything. :) --Moonriddengirl 18:39, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Med request 2

Blackworm seems to have given his ok - how about you? I'd like to send this request tonight if it's all good. Thanks -Phyesalis (talk) 20:46, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Filed mediation request

I have filed the request here. Thank you for your help and participation. -Phyesalis (talk) 03:43, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Automated editing

The matter was resolved. User:Anakin101 did it. ☯  Zenwhat (talk) 03:22, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Thank you!

Hi, just dropping by to say thanks for supporting my RfA, I totally wasn't expecting to get so much support, it was a really pleasant surprise. Melesse (talk) 04:27, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Melesse (talk) has smiled at you! Smiles promote WikiLove and hopefully this one has made your day better. Spread the WikiLove by smiling at someone else, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past or a good friend. Happy editing!
Smile at others by adding {{subst:Smile}} to their talk page with a friendly message.

Any suggestions re archived ANI

Hi Coppertwig I had the following on ANI but it never got admin action and now has been archived. Any suggestions? Number 10 on the index list "PresterJohn continues misrepresenting source in BLP". SmithBlue (talk) 22:45, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Your last post on the AN/I thread makes it sound as if maybe things got resolved, or partly resolved. Would you please briefly summarize here what are the disputes or problems that are still not solved, that you're looking for suggestions about? I might or might not get involved and/or give you suggestions. Thanks. --Coppertwig (talk) 02:17, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Coopertwig, basically as I see it;

PresterJohn has misrepresented a source repeatedly.

PresterJohn seems either unable or unwilling to see the problem and replies that other sources support the material as he presents it.

Editor Skyring/Pete apparently refuses/unable to understand problem of repeatedly misrepresenting a source.

Editors PresterJohn and Skyring/Pete present a view in which my efforts to correct, discuss and report issue is disruptive.

PresterJohn and Skyring/Pete have apparently shown that repeatedly misrepresenting a source has no consequences/importance to WP.

I'm feeling let down by admins on ANI - I try to take effective action against an editing practice, that damages WP, by correcting, discussing and then eventually lodging an ANI and get no assistance.

Those 6 things pretty much cover the issues/problems that are still not solved. SmithBlue (talk) 12:13, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the summary. I plan to look into this within about a day. --Coppertwig (talk) 13:06, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Please take as much time as you want - spending some time away from David Hicks sounds good to me. Let me know if you decide not to proceed though so that I can explore other options. Am open to suggestions from you on how to do a better job with possibly disruptive editors. SmithBlue (talk) 13:32, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

OK -- could you please be more specific? Apparently they found this source which states "He received training in weapons, commando tactics, explosives, guerrilla warfare strategies, advanced marksmanship, topography, ambush attacks, reconnaissance, surveillance, sniper training and house entries." Which particular edits are you still concerned about, and in what way (i.e. no source, source not reliable or article not reflecting source in a NPOV way, or undue weight, etc.?) Sorry for the delay, and thanks for any additional information you can provide. I appreciate you helping support WP:NPOV and WP:BLP. --Coppertwig (talk) 01:11, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

I am concerned that the following edits were made which repeatedly misrepresented the source cited. The material in the article misrepresents the material in the source. The material in the article was described as admissions whereas the source says allegations (I was unaware of the source/information you provide above until after the ANI "discusion" on talk page. Pete/Skyring put forward the source you mention at 02:45, 3 February 2008)

Then following are the diffs for the edits which misrepresent the sources cited.

Revision as of 00:43, 3 February 2008

Revision as of 01:59, 13 January 2008

Revision as of 00:10, 12 January 2008

The same edits have also been performed by IP

Revision as of 03:10, 1 February 2008 by 124.180.162.217

Am not sure how much additional info you want - I discussed the issue with PresterJohn at Talk to the Hand/"David Hicks allegations" section and also with PresterJohn and Pete/Skyring at Talk:David_Hicks/SMH Afganistan allegations. SmithBlue (talk) 08:46, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

If your only concern is about edits that happened in the past, I would advise just dropping it. While the edits might not have been supported by the sources that were presented at the time, later sources were provided, e.g. another source is mentioned on the talk page using the word "admitted", etc. If there's an issue which you still consider to be a content dispute at the present time, please give me specific information about that. --Coppertwig (talk) 13:14, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

My 6 concerns are listed above. They extend beyond edits in the past. I do not think that letting this drop will promote an environment on David Hicks in which editors can work together, having confidence in the accuracy of each-others representations of sources. Nor in a way in which communication/discussion of problems can be held forth as the best method. Nor in a way in which administrator action can be relied on. For these reasons I want to continue to explore which avenues are open. If you don't wish to continue I understand that I have no claim to your time and that your advice is to let the matter go by. Thanks for your assistance so far. There is no content dipute at the present time related to my concerns. I would appreciate any suggestions as to what I could have done differently. SmithBlue (talk) 23:42, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Hi Coopertwig - just confirming that I am exploring other avenues. Thanks for the opportunity to clarify my thoughts on this matter. SmithBlue (talk) 11:18, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Oh, sorry -- I missed seeing your previous post above.

Well, the first diff you give uses the word "allegedly", but later a source was provided that said "admitted" -- I may be confused but I assume that covers it. I didn't look at the other diffs. If you explain why they're significant to the situation I might look at them.

I assume you're looking for advice about what to do when someone posts something which is not supported by any sources that have been provided. Here are some ideas: First look for sources you can find yourself that support the material, if you think you might be able to find some. Also look for sources that contradict the material. Finding more sources is often the cleanest way to resolve a dispute. If that avenue has been exhausted and there's still a problem, without having looked at the way interactions on that page usually go, I would suggest reverting once, stating your concerns on the talk page, and if the material is reinstated without adequate justification, then bringing in more editors to provide their opinions. You can use Misplaced Pages:Third opinion, Misplaced Pages:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard(may or may not be appropriate), Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Biographies, post a request for comment on a talk page of one or a few related articles or a wikiproject, and the Misplaced Pages:Dispute resolution process. I hope this helps, and apologize for the delay due to not seeing your post. --Coppertwig (talk) 13:18, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

By the way, feel free to ask me for a third opinion, but I'm under the impression there is currently no content dispute so no third opinion is needed at this time. --Coppertwig (talk) 13:20, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Request for mediation accepted

A Request for Mediation to which you were are a party has been accepted. You can find more information on the case subpage, Misplaced Pages:Requests for mediation/Reproductive rights. For the Mediation Committee, WjBscribe 23:00, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Just a passer's by comment

Coppertwig, I wish to give you a large thank you for your unrelentless support over the past two weeks, it's proved invaluable and you've often AGF in places where others haven't. If you ever are to go through a RFA, just drop me a line and I'll do a co-nomination (that being because I'm probably not the only one wanting to nominate) :) Regards, Rudget. 16:25, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

That picture is a good addition, and no problem about the co-nomination offer - you deserve it. Rudget. 15:46, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks!

Thanks for letting me know of the discussion on the new speedy templates! I personally think that the best way to do it would be to have a subpage of WT:CSD for the discussion (split into four would be fine as well), and place a noincluded note on each template page with a link to that discussion. A hatnote could also then be placed at the top of the CSD talk page. From a quick glance, they look like they're coming along quite well, I'll review them in more depth once the discussion is ready to start.

As to the rest, no worries at all. :) At that time, there were a lot of "silent" edit conflicts, where two edits got posted at once rather than the last person getting an edit conflict. That certainly could make conversations hard to follow and make replies appear to be to the wrong thing. It seems that bug is fixed now, I haven't had that happen in a while. Seraphimblade 00:00, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Article protection

I've changed my mind on article protection and am asking that FGC and RR be protected. I withdraw my request that we not edit the talk pages. As always, thanks for your continued GF participation. --Phyesalis (talk) 20:19, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

RE: Re your comment on an RfA

Ahh yes. Thanks for telling me, that was a typo on my part. Thanks again!--Sunny910910 23:05, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Hey Copper, is your comment supposed to be attached to the #45 or did you retract your support? I think you are supporting Seresin, but I can't tell---indented comments like yours usually indicates a retracted support?Balloonman (talk) 23:44, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for pointing that out. That was my attempt to format a multi-paragraph vote. I've modified it. I'd appreciate it if you know of any way to further improve a multi-paragraph formatting. --Coppertwig (talk) 23:54, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

About your reply: No problem, I'm just glad it didn't go unnoticed for a long time.--Sunny910910 00:05, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Your modified version works for me... I didn't want to "fix" it without checking with you. Thanks.Balloonman (talk) 00:06, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Fine, thanks for not "fixing" it, but if you (or anyone) can tell me about a better way to format multi-paragraph votes I'd appreciate knowing for next time. Anyway, it's all fine. --Coppertwig (talk) 20:10, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Timeline

Re formatting of a vote on an RfA. I'm collecting this information for purposes other than to criticize Cometstyles, Balloonman or anyone else.

• 17:13 9 Feb 2008 I voted, attempting to format a multi-paragraph vote. I put one line which was totally blank except for "#" (hash), followed by four lines beginning with "#:" (hash colon); the first of these four containing the word "Support".
• 23:44 Balloonman suggested that it wasn't clear whether my vote was intended as a valid one (Thank you for pointing that out, Balloonman.)
• 23:49 I removed a colon beside the word "Support". At this point, there was a line which was blank except for "#" (hash), followed by a line beginning with "#" (hash) and also containing the word "Support". The page rendering showed a correct vote count, treating these two lines as one combined item, but apparently the bot counted them as two. I should have deleted the line which was blank except for "#" (hash). (Sorry about that.) (wrong bot count begins, I think)
• 06:01 and 06:05, 10 Feb Cometstyles modified my vote (combining two paragraphs into one, inserting "and" between them, adding my signature to the end of the second paragraph and making the indentation of the first part different from that of the last paragraph) and in the next edit removed the line which was blank except for "#" (hash), allowing the bot to count the vote correctly (Thank you for noticing the problem, pinpointing it and fixing it, Cometstyles.) (wrong bot count ends, I think)
• 03:38 11 Feb I "restored the original wording" of my vote, and also combined the three paragraphs into one and insserted "(paragraph break)" between them. --Coppertwig (talk) 13:26, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

#'''Vote #1''' text of vote
#'''Vote #2''' text of vote
#'''Vote #3''' text of vote

#'''Vote #1''' text of vote
#
#:'''Vote #2''' text of vote
#'''Vote #3''' text of vote

#'''Vote #1''' text of vote
#
#'''Vote #2''' text of vote
#'''Vote #3''' text of vote

#'''Vote #1''' text of vote
#
#
#'''Vote #2''' text of vote
#'''Vote #3''' text of vote

--Coppertwig (talk) 01:39, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Clarification

Im sorry I wasnt clear about the problem... I do not want to change Huautla de Jiménez into a redirect. It is the name of a town and the seat (capital) of the Municipality of Huautla de Jiménez. Is there a way to merger the information of the two articles without turning one of them into a redirect? Thanks Thelmadatter (talk) 17:31, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

re:Formatting of RfA votes

Sorry for not notifying soon, but I had to leave soon afterwards, and I returned 4 hours later and it slipped my mind..sorry :) ..--Cometstyles 06:02, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

No problem, as I said on your talk page. --Coppertwig (talk) 01:11, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

formatting suggestion

1. I noticed you put (paragraph break) inside your comment at Misplaced Pages:Requests for adminship/Seresin. Many don't seem to be aware of the option that you can use <br /> to create a paragraph break that retains the indentation.
   Using <br /><br /> you can create a paragraph break with an empty line.
   
   User:Dorftrottel 15:06, February 11, 2008
2. Let me try. Suppose this were the first paragraph of my vote.<br.>This would be the second paragraph, then.
   It works! Thanks a lot -- that's what I was looking for. I won't change the formatting of my vote in this RfA, but I expect I'll be using it in future ones -- I often have longish votes. --Coppertwig (talk) 00:57, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

:) you're welcome. User:Dorftrottel 01:03, February 12, 2008

Protected template edits

Given that there is objection to the edits, I'm afraid they can't be made to protected templates unless a strong consensus were shown in favor of making them. To do otherwise would violate the protection policy. They're not a necessity in any case, a link on the talk pages would be fine if people find the template notes objectionable. Seraphimblade 19:47, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

re welcometemplates

In reply to your message, we have {{welcome-anon}} and {{welcome-anon-vandal}} templates out there, as well as quite a few others. The Friendly javascript tool automates adding these template messages and quite a few others - I recommend having that and Twinkle installed just to simplify your life a bit - these addons provide a number of extra tabs to save time and prevent mistakes in complex processes. Triona (talk) 03:42, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Dual use of List & Disamb

I palce another comment at the Help Desk regarding this issue & would be interested in your comments. I do appreciate your assistence & opinion. Tahnks! FieldMarine (talk) 17:39, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your time & comments. Semper Fi, FieldMarine (talk) 03:20, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Consolidation complete on the List of jail and prison museums & the situation is resolved. Thanks again for facilitating the discussion. FieldMarine (talk) 06:12, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

IAR is what makes Misplaced Pages great!

<div style="position: fixed; right:0; bottom:0; display:block; height:{{{1|150}}}px; width:{{{1|150}}}px;"><div style="position: relative; width: {{{1|150}}}px; height: {{{1|150}}}px; overflow: lolz"> <div style="position: absolute; top: 0px; left: 0px; font-size: 300px; overflow: hidden; line-height: 300px; z-index: 3">]</div> <div style="position: absolute; top: 0px; left: 0px; z-index: 2">]</div></div></div>

Regards, QuackGuru (talk) 20:18, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

I realized something about Misplaced Pages. It has no rules. Just consensus. Therefore, we are all IAR. QuackGuru (talk) 01:17, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

It has consensus? Where? I missed it!!! :-) --Coppertwig (talk) 01:19, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Exactly. How can we have consensus when there is no broad agreement. That means there are no rules... QuackGuru (talk) 01:25, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

If there's no consensus, does that mean we can do anything -- or does that mean we can't do anything? :-) --Coppertwig (talk) 01:28, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Take a quick look at the chiropractic talk page. Copyright violations, deletion of cited material (there are four chiro groups), and a whole series of problems. We can do something about it if we IAR. QuackGuru (talk) 01:35, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I will if I can find time. I have some things I need to do. Possibly soon, or in a couple of days. --Coppertwig (talk) 01:46, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

(Additional answer to same message) Using IAR as a tool to enforce policies? Fighting fire with fire? Maybe if you like fire. That seems to me a somewhat paradoxical way to proceed. I tend to use a calmer, wetter, far-less-likely-to-get-blocked approach, which I really think is much more effective, much more likely to arrive at the closest thing possible to a solution everybody agrees on, and also therefore on average more likely to arrive at a solution considered better from any given POV. Note my "harmonious editing club" and "self-revert" userboxes on my userpage. --Coppertwig (talk) 13:25, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I've been going over Chiropractic and expect to continue. By copyright violations I think you mean long quotes. I don't think they're copyright violations. One could argue that they are because they're too long. I think it's a matter of opinion. There's a page to put in a request for an administrator to look into cases of suspected copyright violation; you might want to try that if you haven't already. However, I would expect the administrator would say that it isn't a copyright violation. See Misplaced Pages:Copyright problems. Also, I suggest waiting until a week or two after your block expires before (possibly) putting in a request on that page, as just putting in such a request about the issue which has already been discussed may be seen as disruptive. Maybe I shouldn't even be suggesting it to you. You might want to ask someone's advice, e.g. maybe that of one of the admins who reviewed your block, before doing something like that. --Coppertwig (talk) 13:28, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Adoption request

Thanks again for adopting me. As you may have noticed, I don't overload you with questions. However, a friend of mine who is new in Misplaced Pages asked me if I knew anyone who accepts a new adoptee. She is prepared to learn more and already very active in Misplaced Pages. I would appreciate it if you could adopt her.--Kerres (Talk) 08:24, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Adoption request

Hi Coppertwig! I was wondering if you could adopt me. I am new in wikipedia but I am aiming to contribute quite regularly. Please, take a look to some recent contributions I am looking for some help with editing but also some assistante with getting to know the especifics of how wikipedia works. Thank you very much. .--anunezsanchez (Talk) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.220.83.143 (talk) 14:10, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Hi! I saw the request from Kerres above. I'm sorry I just haven't had time yet to have a look at your contribs. I expect I'll answer within about 24 hours. --Coppertwig (talk) 23:29, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Re: Your comments on museum lists on FieldMarine's talk page

Thanks for your comments there, which helped me to think through the matter more. Whether or not to split lists or categories by nationality isn't really something covered by NPOV, I think, because the consideration should be what helps the reader and what lists may be too long, and that just depends on the information we have or expect to have. I'm not sure what's most useful for readers when it comes to lists of jail/prison museums, and since the list is sortable, it's only a minor inconvenience to readers if we get it wrong (alternately, it's a minor improvement if we get it right). Again, thanks. Noroton (talk) 19:08, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I disagree: NPOV does cover how lists are divided up. In most cases it probably doesn't matter. However, grouping geographical things in a particular way could, in some particular situations, be seen as legitimizing controversial borders. There are people who feel very strongly one way or another, I believe, as to whether Turkey is or is not part of Europe, for example. In the case of these museum lists you probably don't have to worry about this sort of thing much, but it can come up. Anyway, go forth and be bold. --Coppertwig (talk) 01:11, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Okie dokie!

- Apologies for any confusion caused! Scarian 02:15, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

66.100.163.146 and Kittenpants.com

I was not the only person who deleted the kittenpants.com link (which was not related to the article), two other registered users also did likewise. I feel I am being the one singled out for Bites. Her/his attempts to clean up the rest of spam only came after 6 or 7 attempts to insert the kittenpants.com links and two warnings (one from me and the other user). I might understand singling me out if I was acting alone, or if I was unduly rude to the anon user. You assume good faith of someone who attempts to insert non relevant spam, but I am not extended the same courtesy? Jacksinterweb (talk) 02:22, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

I apologize for the tone of my message. I thought it sounded too harsh as soon as I'd posted it, and posted a gentler one to Scarian, partly also because the user only posted one vandalism warning to that user while you posted two. I'm not sure what third editor you're referring to, but in any case, I had no problem with people deleting the link; I was focussing on the vandalism warnings posted at User talk:66.100.163.146.

I'm sorry that I didn't study the user contribs and talk page history as carefully as I could have, and jumped to the conclusion that your last warning was referring to the edit which the user appeared to think it was referring to, i.e. this edit, which was not vandalism. I see now that it would be much more reasonable to assume you were referring to the edit a minute earlier which re-added kittenpants.com. You can reduce the chance of such confusion in future (by the recipient of the warning or by others such as myself) by including specific reference to which edit you mean when you post vandalism messages, although this doesn't excuse me from making that error. (This is similar to what I said to the other user about edit summaries.)

I still haven't completely figured out what happened, and maybe it's not worth taking the time to do so, but it seems to me that the user inserted "kittenpants.com" twice and received three vandalism warnings, so something wasn't quite right. Scarian has deleted the vandalism warnings and posted an apologetic message at the help desk.

It's possible that your warnings were technically correct, and I apologize for making a similar error with you that I was accusing you of making with this new user.

I encourage you to have a look at the help desk thread if you haven't already, to get an idea of how your vandalism warnings were experienced by the user. Possibly more than one user was bitten.

You could still try treating the addition of links as a content dispute rather than as vandalism; explain in a little more detail to new users why their edits are considered vandalism; and post welcome templates so the users have some chance of figuring out what types of edits they are or are not supposed to be doing. --Coppertwig (talk) 12:36, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Or you could have checked the history of the article to see the sequence of events and this "content dispute". You would have also seen the third person who saw the spamming and removed the last bits of it. Instead you pronounced me guilty and pounced.

Or you could have checked MY contributions and see that I revert many times without using boiler plate warnings, often reverting small hijinx made hours earlier and moving on (little point warning an anon IP when that user has moved on).

I do revert spam links many times without calling spam vandalism. In this case she/he used a Trojan horse to conceal spam (a so called "fact" with external link to pvt website selling kittenpants.com products). He/she made several attempts to make the link work before I issued first warning. I in fact checked the website to see if it was just an innocent mistake (did you?) and saw no connection but saw a site selling a book and kittenpant related products. Possibly a COI but more likely just a kid pushing his/her fav site. Scarian and I overlapped, and indeed the last of the eight or so "edits" was not in fact spam, but in light of previous 7 edits her intent wasn't so clear nor so innocent, but I was still in error on that one.

Yes, I did see the Help Desk, did you? If you had you would have seen that he/she misrepresented what actually happened (no mention of spam link, no actual yelling - just the claim that she was only trying to insert a "fact" and then correct it...but you didn't check the article's history so you wouldn't know that wasn't so much the case). I also saw another editor responded to his/her request, and make note on Anon's talk page....but you decided to pile on too and issued harsh baseless rebukes. All that aside; ignorance of guidelines and rules does not make one innocent or a victim but you treated him/her as such.

It boils down to this: you took as gospel the word of an Anon user with 8 edits all involving spamming over the history of a registered user with over 13,000 edits and no record of mischief and issued a rebuke, which you stand by in spirit if not totally in tone.

Or you could have taken time to investigate before firing off "harshly worded" rebukes. If you didn't have the time to investigate, perhaps you should have just let it go since someone else already addressed the situation.

Or you could have amended your message to me once you "thought it sounded too harsh", but you made the decision to let it ride (I was guilty and not due the respect offered to Anon user, right?).

Or you could have resisted the temptation today to assume bad faith, that all my activites in the past are in error too.

You are no doubt a very smart person (your user page implies this), so let me ask you this, who did more harm to Misplaced Pages? Was it the Anon user pushing a spam site? Or was it me, in posting a boiler plate template to get her/him to stop? Or was it a third party who gave the 'green light" to a spammer/victim and then pivot to insult, tried to humiliate and chase off an established user with no record of disruptive behavior for trying to revert anon user's actions?

In the end, You Win! The accussation (and your pronouncement of my guilt) remains on the Help Desk and Anon User page waiting for the next "helpful" person to chime in. But more important you needn't ever worry about you and I crossing paths again.

I wonder what special Barnstar you will receive for your very "special" contribution to this matter? Jacksinterweb (talk) 16:11, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

I made a mistake. I apologize. I would strike out my comment on your talk page, except that you've already deleted it. I'm sorry for all the trouble I've caused you. Next time I feel like rebuking someone for BITE I'll literally do 10 pushups first and then recheck the contrib histories etc. again. --Coppertwig (talk) 01:21, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm also sorry to have taken up so much of your time. I would like you to know that at every stage of this incident, I assumed that your actions were carried out in good faith, whether I thought they were constructive or whether I mistakenly thought they didn't appear to be constructive. I never had the slightest reason to suspect that you might not be acting in good faith. I'm sorry if I accidentally gave an impression otherwise. --Coppertwig (talk) 14:25, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Apologies accepted and sincerely appreciated. We all have feet of clay. WP provides a thousand and one guidelines and rules that we can cherry pick and hide behind when we do something clumsy or wrong, but you chose not to. You actually thought for yourself and displayed grace; for that I am very appreciative and impressed. I am not interested seeing you embarrassed nor do I need a permanent display of apology, so unless you just like hairshirt threads on your talk page, please feel free to delete our discussions (no one should have the word "kittenpants" on the talk page). Thank you. Jack

Jacksinterweb (talk) 16:36, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Thank you. I'm very relieved to get your message. I was worried.

My standard practice is to archive messages from my talk page, not delete them. I don't think it will bother me having this here until my next archiving action, now that it's resolved.

I'm planning to take up some new habits that will help me remember to check things more thoroughly in situations like that. --Coppertwig (talk) 16:55, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Just saying hallo

Hi Coppertwig, thanks a lot for your offer. Whenever you are bored, you can always review any of the articles on water supply and sanitation, especially those about Latin American and Caribbean countries. Any comments are welcome. Greetings!--Kerres (Talk) 11:24, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks a lot for your comments! They are very useful for the articles. Mschiffler and I already made some minor changes to it. Concerning the other articles, I mean all those which are included in the navbox on my user page and at the end of each article. At the moment, we nominated Water supply and sanitation in Colombia as a good article. Your comments are welcome!--Kerres (Talk) 19:54, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

How are you? I added a table you may already have seen in my sandbox to Misplaced Pages. Do you think that it was a good solution to establish a link here or would it be better to include the table in the article? By the way, I hope you are at least a little interested in the issue and the articles don't bore you.--Kerres (Talk) 10:43, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Editors claim that repeatedly misrepresenting a source is OK

Hi Coppertwig , thanks for your input. I have replied on my talk page ]. I disagree strongly. I am interested in continuing this conversation. Am also trying to include SeraphimBlade in this discusion. All the best. SmithBlue (talk) 08:29, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Have replied on my talk page ] thanks SmithBlue (talk) 11:51, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Hi Coppertwig - a question: Have you read the actual lengthy discusions I have had with PresterJohn and Skyring/Pete on this issue? Or are you discussing with me a hypothetical situation of an editor misrepresenting sources? I am feeling misunderstood by you and the admins I have contacted on this matter. And can only make sense of the response I have got by thinking none of you has read the discusions I referenced.

I have replied briefly to your latest post on my talk page. Hope to add more soon. SmithBlue (talk) 04:23, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your detailed reply.

The allegations/accusations being misrepresented are specific ones; "attended a number of al-Qaeda training courses at various camps around Afghanistan, learning guerilla warfare, weapons training, including landmines, kidnapping techniques and assassination methods. He also participated in an advanced course on surveillance, in which he conducted surveillance of the U.S. and British embassies in Kabul, Afghanistan". On one occasion when al-Qaeda founder Osama bin Laden visited an Afghan camp, Hicks questioned bin Laden about the lack of English in training material and subsequently "began to translate the training camp materials from Arabic to English"."

Before the edit in which I wrote, "Ummm.... I have not disputed that many reliable sources show Hicks training with AlQ.", PresterJohn repeatedly responded as if "Hicks trained with AlQ" was all that needed to be correctly sourced. (There is is a list of specific allegations as shown above and PresterJohn is required to give a correct source for them all under VER and BLP.)

However after I made it clear that I was not disputing that "Hicks trained with Al Qaeda" PresterJohn continued to edit as if I was. This effectively created a strawman - something he could loudly disprove while ignoring the issue of misrepresentation.

User:Prester John's contribution page shows his first edit as 02:03, 27 August 2006 (hist) (diff) Alexander Downer‎ (I have changed "off Australian " waters to)

shows

Mainspace 4313

Misplaced Pages: 207

total 6263

User:Coppertwig shows

Mainspace 2175

Misplaced Pages: 519

total 6819

User:SmithBlue shows

Mainspace 501

Misplaced Pages: 24

total 1408

PresterJohn has a comparable number of edits to you.

He is familar with Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents having posted there 32 times which is similar in number to your posting there. He is not a new user and could be typified as experienced.

And yet he apparently misunderstands the necessity of accurate representation of sources. I wonder - especially given his continued promotion of the strawman of "Hicks trained with Al Qaeda" after I pointed out that that was not disputed.

You write, "I'm not aware of any policy stating that articles have to "accurately reflect the content of sources.""

You seem to be relating this to my statement "This discusion is about accurately reflecting the content of sources."

In the case to hand I am discussing edits/"material inserted into article" needing to accurately represent the content of the cited sources. If the information in the edits does not "accurately reflect the content of sources" then it will, at least, be misleading. The reader will assume that the material in the article accurrately represents the source given as this is the established convention.

I have put in a . I have tried to frame it in line with your suggested layout. I would appreciate your view of it. If you are too busy I do understand that priorities are very important to maintain. SmithBlue (talk) 06:19, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm planning to reply within a day or two. Feel free to remind me if I forget. --Coppertwig (talk) 03:44, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

OK, from your description it seems that you're dealing with an editor who thinks it's OK to leave out the word "allegedly" when quoting from a newspaper. (Of course it's not OK to just use a source that says "allegedly" as if it didn't contain that word.) This sort of thing is not uncommon. I myself have learned (mostly from Jakew) better habits of quoting sources more precisely, during my time here at Misplaced Pages. In my opinion, the primary method of educating users about this sort of thing is discussion on the article talk page.

Are you thinking of doing an RfC (article content) or an RfC (user conduct)? They're two very different things. However, in my experience, RfC (user conduct)'s are unlikely to do any good and are very likely to do more harm than good. I think I've heard that there have existed RfC (user conduct)'s that did some good, but I haven't actually seen one. :-)

You're talking about edits that happened weeks ago. I advise you to just drop the matter. It may be that Prester John has (without wanting to admit it) learned from your earlier messages and has stopped doing those kinds of edits. I advise that you keep the page on your watchlist and be ready to revert any unsourced or improperly sourced edits, and be ready to take other actions if and when they're needed.

I note that you haven't followed my advice about beginning with a single sentence which expresses the main point you want to get across. (What is the main point you want to get across?) Also, you've listed diffs of edits by Prester John, but you have not put into the same list any diffs of comments by you to Prester John (e.g. on the user's talk page) coming chronologically between the user's edits and explaining why that sort of edit is unconstructive. Therefore your argument is weak. Also, you're including a lot of information near the top of your post that is only tangentially related to your main point, requiring the reader to do a lot of mental work to try to figure out what you're getting at.

Try to get along with other users. A friendly approach is more likely to get a positive response than making a fuss with AN/I and other processes. Try to focus on article content rather than the behaviour of other users. Focus on user behaviour only if quite necessary. Since the last problematic edit seems to have been Feb. 3 according to your post at Editor assistance/Requests (the link you give above), it seems to me that everything is fine now. --Coppertwig (talk) 13:01, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Hi Coppertwig, thanks for being a good sounding board. I seem to have found some traction and presented my view on the article talk page and asked for other views on the matter. If I was confident that my AGF was well placed I would agree with your suggestion to let it go. Rather I think continuing to explore this matter will make editing WP a more fruitful experience for me and others. Whilst I have not always agreed with what you have written on this matter you have helped a lot in getting my thoughts clarified. Thanks for confirming my views on RfC User - am thinking that Mediation may work better. I hope so because an admin pointed out that as ANI failed to address issue then ARBCOM is open. But, while I think this issue is very important, I really dont want to take up valuable time unless it becomes last resort.

The issue I wish to deal with is that Prester John and Skyring promote editing practices that involve breaching:

• WP:NOR, which states "Information in an article must be verifiable in the references cited.", as the source given does not verify the information in his edit.
• WP:BLP which states "The writing style should be neutral and factual, avoiding both understatement and overstatement." Presenting allegations and accusatons as fact or as admitted is neither neutral nor factual.
• WP:VER which states, "Editors should provide a reliable source for quotations and for any material that is challenged or is likely to be challenged, or it may be removed." Prester John did not provide a reliable source for material that had been challenged.

In addition Prester John continued with these edits knowing that they were disputed and did not have consensus support. He later was supported by Skyring for having continued with these edits.

To me the defense of the misrepresenting edits disrupts and works to destroy Misplaced Pages. It may be that I am wrong. But so far my earnest efforts to be shown how I am wrong have not succeeded.

Thanks for your support over the last weeks - it has been very helpful. I think I'll be right on my own two feet from here. If I can be of any assistance please let me know. SmithBlue (talk) 08:18, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm glad you've found my comments helpful.

I doubt that Prester John and Skyring admit that the practices they promote breach those policies. You could present your point in a more neutral fashion by stating that they promote certain practices (described in a neutral way such that they would agree that those are the practices that they promote) and state that in your opinion these practices breach those policies.

If the last edit in question is indeed Feb. 3, your use of the word "continued" seems somewhat misleading to me. When saying something like that, I think it's worthwhile adding more information to qualify what you're saying to make it clear that you're talking about one or two edits weeks ago after receiving a warning (if that's what the situation is) rather than a pattern that is currently continuing. Avoiding exaggeration or any appearance of exaggeration in your argument is more courteous to the other people involved (including those who have to read what you say and figure out what's going on) and also leaves your argument less open to distracting counter-arguments. --Coppertwig (talk) 12:49, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Hi Coppertwig, a messagte to WP:VER talk produced this; WP:NOR#Using sources "Information in an article must be verifiable in the references cited." Knowing this will make things easier to explain next time. Thanks for your time. SmithBlue (talk) 02:00, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Re: Thanks for helping out a new user

That's usually my policy. :) Anything to help other people contribute whilst not being discouraged by deletions of recently created pages is a big must. The source supplied looks appropriate and verifiable enough, so it was all in a day's work. Regards, Rudget. 11:46, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Do you think you're ready for a request for adminship now? If so, I can contact Moonriddengirl because she also seems to have pretty close relations with you aswell. If not, no worries. Regards, Rudget. 19:10, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

I replied by email. --Coppertwig (talk) 00:25, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

point de vue neutrale a l'article de chiropratique

Salut Coppertwig,

J'aimerais bien vous feliciter pour tes efforts a l'article de chiropratique. J'espere que tu decidera de rester avec nous pour donner votre POV et nous aider avec des changements controversiaux; on a besoin plus d'editeurs objectif! A la prochaine, EBDCM (talk) 03:09, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Merci beaucoup, et merci d'utiliser quelques de mes suggestions. --Coppertwig (talk) 03:16, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Rewording of CSD templates

While your suggestions for rewording the CSD templates are interesting, they don't seem to have gained very much support or discussion. How are you planning to proceed? Happy‑melon 14:01, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

As co-doer of that, I'll just note that silence equals consent. Of course, that isn't true in policy pages or guidelines, but in templates there's no reason to presume it isn't. --Moonriddengirl 14:07, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

The plan is as descibed at User talk:Moonriddengirl#CSD stuff, i.e. if continued silence after one more notice, then WP:BRD. I'll wait a short time for you to comment on this procedure if you wish, happy-melon, before posting that notice at WT:CSD. I really appreciate your comments -- nice to get a few comments, anyway! Some of your comments required some thinking, (e.g. the list of which templates transclude which, which I haven't finished,) which is why I haven't answered them yet, but still plan to; however, I don't think this necessarily requires delaying implementing the other changes. --Coppertwig (talk) 14:17, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks!

Hey thanks for the advice! Now that i've looked I found a userpage that I'd like to use. Plus more information on my page (ALOT more) would be helpful! =) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Letter 7 (talk • contribs) 19:28, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Thank you!

Thanks. Now I know how notable Takkō Ishimori is.Kitty53 (talk) 03:43, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Re: Criticism

Howdy Coppertwig! Thank you very much for the RfA support; I really appreciate you taking the time to !vote on it. And also, thank you very much for the message and well detailed and well thought out "criticisms". In reply to those consecutive (1 minute gap) vandal warnings: As you probably know WP:HUGGLE queues up edits... e.g. 1) A user makes an edit and I perceive it as vandalism and revert... Huggle then blacklists that user (anon or registered) and pulls up other unreverted edits that that user has done for me to check over... That's how the situation of edits made at 14:18 and 14:29 ended up getting warned at 14:52 and 14:53. The edits are queued up (eventually creating a backlog)... I understand that I should notice the time difference and take into account a users ability to read and take heed of a warning within a certain amount of time.
Welcome messages... Hmm... I did used to do them. Quite a few months ago actually. But then I realised that the vast majority of {{welcomeg}} tags I placed were ignored and the user's never edited again. So it never provided me with any sort of "satisfaction" so to speak. I do realise and acknowledge that I should start doing it again and that the welcome templates can do a lot of good in welcoming and bringing new users into our community.
I think those are my explanations ... So the warning troubles can be blamed partially on Huggle with me accepting that I should pay more attention to time discrepancies. And I should begin welcoming users again simply as a matter of curtesy and politeness. My user page colours... Hmm... I'd be willing to change them if numerous users found it difficult to read .
I hope you find my answers satisfactory. If you have any follow up criticisms please feel free to message. I hope you are well, friend. Thanks again for the message, I really appreciate you taking the time. Take care, Scarian 18:49, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

boserup versus böserup

thank you for your input. ludo86--Ludo86 (talk) 20:04, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks

Thanks for the help. It really helped my understanding of Misplaced Pages. The reason I ask people to post massages on the the archive is because it means people don't clog up my talk page with answers. It helps me to keep up with talk and answers without the mixture of both. There are some riddles on my user page. Chubbennaitor (talk) 20:10, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

j stalin

i also think the selling candy on BART sentance should be removed, it may is embarassing. Its also illegal. It's even more of a liability since its law breaking as a child. user wikidemo reverted my removal of the selling candy on the bart train, and also removed my {{fact}} on the non contentious claim that he started rapping at age 13 which is cited based on unpublished album notes which cannot be found. this is on the J Stalin article, would someone intervene and revert and also discuss?Icamepica (talk) 07:53, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

AfD nomination of J Stalin

An article that you have been involved in editing, J Stalin, has been listed for deletion. If you are interested in the deletion discussion, please participate by adding your comments at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/J Stalin (2nd nomination). Thank you. Icamepica (talk) 05:01, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Templates

Yes, you've done that pretty much correctly. It would be helpful to pass the parameter |bot={{{bot|}}} to ensure consistent support for the new bot-tagged feature, which I forgot to do in the four I did. As you correctly noticed, the documentation pages should be at {{db-xN/doc}}, not {{db-xN/new/doc}}, and try and put everything, including shortcuts, into the documentation, so if we ever do need to protect them again, the documentation can still be edited. Other than that, it looks good.

My own knowledge of bots is only moderate, based on the pywikipedia framework. I actually knew nothing about python until I started playing around with it, but it's a very intuitive language and a fairly shallow learning curve. If you've done any other programming before, you could pick it up fairly quickly. Happy‑melon 09:28, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Speculation about Mona Lisa

Hi Coppertwig, I wanted to let you know that I reverted your correct and well-researched contribution to Mona Lisa only because the information is more aptly covered in the 'Speculation' article, wherein several theories are offered regarding the lady's smile. The creation of the 'Speculation' entry is recent, and now acts as the home for this and similar scholarship. I wanted to contact you directly because yours was a very good faith edit, coming from a good contributor. Respectfully yours, JNW (talk) 02:37, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

It is difficult for me to undo an erudite contribution! Your subsequent revisions, and explanation, make perfect sense. I may change the tense in one of your sentences from present to past--if you find me in error, please revert back. Cheers, JNW (talk) 03:07, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

The footnotes are great--my apologies for not being more thorough and moving them there myself. The original Mona article had gotten pretty unwieldy, and the speculation section was split off into a separate article. My (unexpressed) trepidation was that just such occurrences would result, but the links you added address this smartly. Thanks. JNW (talk) 03:25, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

j stalin

he immediately reverted you edit. i reverted his blatantly disregarding edit which seems to be a WP:OWN problem now too and warned him in his talk page which you may want to comment at.Icamepica (talk) 11:53, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm under the impression that you've admitted to being a sockpuppet, and that the person you're admitting to be has been blocked indefinitely for disruption. (See Misplaced Pages:Suspected sock puppets/Boomgaylove.) --Coppertwig (talk) 03:12, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

J Stalin article

Hi there. Please realize that I'm trying to keep some order around here. I've gotten sucked into dealing with a bunch of sockpuppets, who are busy attacking me and creating forks all over the place. I'm not trying to blindly revert stuff, I just don't think we can have a reasonable discussion about the content of these articles while they are under attack. If you can hold on for half a day you'll find me quite reasonable. I have no agenda regarding the content other than that trying to keep a lid on disruption and sockpuppetry until things return to normal. The status quo for these articles is that they mentioned the statements about drug dealing, with the same sources they do now but not in reasonable citation format. I've improved the citation formats, added a bunch more sources to the article, reorganized and improved it, and added some content, all so the sockpuppets could not game the system by appealing to notability. Just hold on a bit and we'll work it out, okay? Thanks, Wikidemo (talk) 12:08, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Re J Stalin article: I understand that there are allegations of sockpuppetry involved, and I've made some edits to Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/J Stalin (2nd nomination) and to Misplaced Pages:Suspected sock puppets/Boomgaylove in support of the sockpuppetry allegations. Nevertheless, WP:BLP states clearly "immediately and without discussion". While you've asked me to "hold on a bit," you haven't provided anything that looks to me like a reason for doing so, so I am turning down your request. Your edit violates WP:BLP and you have not provided counter-arguments supporting your edit, therefore it also violates WP:CONSENSUS. Please do not re-insert the disputed material again. If it had not already been reverted I would be asking you now to self-revert it. --Coppertwig (talk) 12:22, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

You can delete BLP violations immediately and without discussion. This is not a BLP violation, so deleting it amounts to edit warring. I see that's the fourth time you've made the untrue statement that I have not justified my edit. I will re-insert the sourced material at some point if and when the sockpuppet issue dies down. If you want to discuss it at that point we can do so in the appropriate forum and you're willing to make your argument and seek consensus. For the moment you have none. I've offered and pleaded with you to handle this in a reasonable calm way, and you say you refuse to do so. The reason to hold off is that you are tag teaming with the sock puppet to delete sourced content. All I can conclude is that you want to edit war on the side of the sockpuppet instead of dealing constructively with this. Incidentally, you've responded here and on my talk page. If you would care to discuss this further we should choose one or the other. Wikidemo (talk) 12:40, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

I contend that it is a BLP violation, as poorly-sourced material. I've provided arguments that the sources are poor. I apologize for being unclear: I didn't mean you hadn't justified your edit. I meant you hadn't provided counter-arguments to my last two posts at Talk:J Stalin. If you've previously justified the edit, please either restate the arguments or provide links to those arguments at J Stalin below my posts. (Update: I see that you have provided responses there now.) Please do not re-insert the material at any time unless there is first a consensus at Talk:J Stalin that sufficiently reliable sources have been found. I'm willing to discuss it at any time. You say "For the moment you have none". I don't understand this. Do you mean I have no argument? I've posted arguments at Talk:J Stalin based on WP:BLP, WP:CONSENSUS and WP:RS. I believe I'm handling this in a reasonable and calm way. You misquote me: I have not refused to handle this in a reasonable and calm way. Please don't misquote me. Deleting sourced content is fine, particularly when it is, as I contend in this case, poorly-sourced contentious material that WP:BLP requires deleting "immediately and without discussion". Please assume good faith: I have no desire to edit war or to do anything for the purpose of being on the side of a sockpuppet. In accusing me of "edit war", are you admitting to doing so yourself? You've reverted the contentious material into the article three times in a 24-hour period, against the edits of 3 other editors (only one of whom is accused of sockpuppetry, I believe). --Coppertwig (talk) 13:00, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

I was going to come back and refactor to be a little less combative - sorry I didn't get to that in time. The procedure is that I don't need a consensus to insert, you need a consensus to remove. Your opinion that they're a BLP violation does not trump my opinion that they are not. If we have a dispute over that we follow the normal dispute rules, but we also have BLP/N or administrative intervention/help available. Any dispute resolution forum is vulnerable to the sockpuppets, so the only real way to deal with it is to appeal to a neutral administrator who's willing to sort it out...if willing. Many would avoid it as a content dispute; others might offer their opinion. Of the editors, one is a likely sockpuppet, one is a serial disruptive editor (look at the block history), and you're not being very patient if I must say. And 2-1 doesn't make for consensus anyway. But if you'll notice, User:Neil has blocked the one account for 24 hours, which (if it's not lifted) will probably give everyone time to figure out if it's a sockpuppet or not. If so my guess is this and some other accounts will be indefinitely blocked. If it's conclusive that it's not a sockpuppet I'll owe the user a big fat apology. So I think we can probably sit back now and take things a little easier. I do know you're acting in good faith. It's just really hard to operate when you're getting attacked left and right, by socks and regular editors alike.Wikidemo (talk) 13:13, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Thank you very much for your assumption of good faith. You also seem to be acting in good faith and getting somewhat frustrated with the way this issue is being dragged around to so many different fora.

You said, "The procedure is that I don't need a consensus to insert, you need a consensus to remove." I don't remember seeing anything like that in any policy or guideline. At the moment I see no reason why I should agree to such a procedure.

I'm sorry for the impatience; that's because of WP:BLP saying "immediately". Thank you for your own forebearance. I think it would be helpful to get the opinions of some more editors. We could consider posting to Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard. However, maybe you're tired of having various fora dragged into this. --Coppertwig (talk) 03:04, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Sample Standard Deviation Denominator N-1

Thanks a lot, with your explanation for why using "N-1" it finally "clicked" for me. About the proof for it: If we would go to higher dimensions, would it still be "N-1"? I was told that for 2-dim it would be "N-2", but it just doesn't sound right to me (but this is only a gut-feeling :-). Stevemiller (talk) 04:54, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Thank you very much for the compliment. I suppose you mean this edit by me, which was one of my first few edits on Misplaced Pages, so it was fun to look back at it.

Two-dimensional: OK, suppose you have two paramters -- suppose they're the two parameters specifying the equation for a line. Suppose you have some samples from a population which are randomly distributed close to the line but with random errors; but you don't know the equation of the line. If you knew the equation of the line, you could estimate the standard deviation of the errors using the deviation of each point from the line. But you don't. So you first estimate the equation of the line, based on your samples, then use that to find the deviations. But the estimated line will be closer to your points than the original, unknown line. If you knew any one of the two parameters in the equation for the line and you were estimating the other parameter, you could use N-1 instead of N in the denominator to correct for that. If you knew both parameters, you would simply use N in the denominator. But if both are unknown, you use N-2 to get an unbiased estimate. Maybe some day I'll try to come up with a simple proof of this. To be honest, it tended to mystify me too, in statistics class. Look up the concept of "number of degrees of freedom." I find it makes sense intuitively but don't always have a firm handle on connecting it to actual proofs. --Coppertwig (talk) 13:09, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Proposal RE: User:Mikkalai's vow of silence

You are a previous participant in the discussion at WP:AN/I about User:Mikkalai's vow of silence. This is to inform you, that I have made a proposal for resolution for the issue. I am informing all of the users who participated, so this is not an attempt to WP:CANVAS support for any particular position.

The proposal can be found at: Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Proposed resolution (Mikkalai vow of silence) Jerry talk ¤ count/logs 02:07, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Karma

If you're cool with it, so am i Tom.mevlie (talk) 00:06, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Radical environmentalism

Thanks for the message, I realised it was a very short article (for what is a much bigger topic leading to many others) so decided to get to work at it. I also noticed it had previously been written almost exclusively from only one source which was quite vague to say the least at describing things. I'll keep adding sources and including information, I have a cold at the moment so I haven't got much else to do! Thanks again. Blueberrypie12 (talk) 01:36, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Be Like Others

Hi Coppertwig, thanks so much for the message, I'm glad you enjoyed reading the article. --BelovedFreak 18:11, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

1. Robert Burns. Peter's Quotations: Ideas for Our Time. Laurence J. Peter. Bantam Books, New York NY, USA. 1977/1979. Page 5.