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Revision as of 16:18, 10 February 2008 editRainer P. (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users1,320 edits →Image:Prem Rawat's Property.jpg← Previous edit Revision as of 18:15, 10 February 2008 edit undoMaelefique (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users1,654 edits →Image:Prem Rawat's Property.jpg: article fix to remove duplication, and further rebuttal against specious argumentsNext edit →
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:<span class="plainlinksneverexpand lx">] ( | ] | | )</span> - uploaded by ] (<span class="plainlinks"></span><!-- Fix me: The included template outputs a section header, but Mediawiki with "require edit summaries" turned on won't save the page unless a section header is added. Also, if possible please populate the new talk page message with the name of the deleted image.--> | ]). :<span class="plainlinksneverexpand lx">] ( | ] | | )</span> - uploaded by ] (<span class="plainlinks"></span><!-- Fix me: The included template outputs a section header, but Mediawiki with "require edit summaries" turned on won't save the page unless a section header is added. Also, if possible please populate the new talk page message with the name of the deleted image.--> | ]).
*This is a screenshot from Google Earth. There is no way that it can qualify for fair use as (1) you don't need to see a picture of his home to understand an article about him, (2) the US government makes satellite photos and it should be possible to find one from the US government (thus PD), (3) even if you can't find a US government photo, this is an existing building and thus someone could take a photo of it with a camera. This is a flagrant violation of our fair use policy. -- ] (]) 22:50, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
*And it's just used for decoration too. '''Delete'''. ] (]) 22:54, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
**How can you say this? If the photograph had no relevant point to the article, then why are the followers of Prem on Misplaced Pages in such an uproar over its display. It is clear that the photograph highlights hypocrisy from Prem. He preaches one thing and does the exact opposite. I would argue that most level headed people look with extreem suspicion at religious leaders who live this type of life. Just take Tammy Baker, or Miscavige for example. <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 05:55, 10 February 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

* In regards to B's first point, I found it very enlightening to see where PR lives. In this case, a picture truly is worth a thousand words, and I'm not sure we need to add that much more to this article. As to B's second point, if they think there's a PD image available, why not help everyone out and produce it? The image had a definite effect on my understanding of the article, and after viewing it, I can see why the pro-PR editors want very much to keep it out of the article. I would vote to keep it in. ] (]) 00:17, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
**There's no fair use justification for using this image anywhere. We're not even pretending to use it for critical commentary on Google's service. We're claiming fair use merely because they have a photo that we like and we don't feel like paying them royalties. Regardless of replaceability, it doesn't qualify for fair use and if Google sent us a cease and desist, we would have no choice but to comply. As for where to find something free, http://www.usgs.gov/ has a lot of PD satellite imagery, mostly of US locations. If this person lives in India, I have no idea what they would have of there, but it's worth a look. But even if you can't find it there, we don't use a non-free image merely because we can't find a free one by googling for it. The building exists now. A Wikipedian who really wants to could take a photograph of it and publish it here. We don't have to rely on a non-free image. --] (]) 01:22, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
***There is an absolutely clear fair use justification. The photo is being used for educational purposes. Also, Misplaced Pages is not using the photograph in a commercial way. Even if we didn't have this justification (which is sound), Google's policy on allowing the use of its Google Earth photographs allows Misplaced Pages to display them. The photo is extremely well suited for the criticism portion of this article. It displays the wealthy lifestyle that Prem leads while he preaches that his followers should do much different. The photograph should stay up. ] (]) 05:49, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
*** There is fair use justification, you claim that a Wikipedian could take a picture himself. There are several problems with this, first of all that would make the Wikipedian in question a primary source with original research, and while images have enjoyed a " a broad exception from this policy" for articles, I don't believe that you can honestly tell me that some of the editors here who have already removed far less contentious content would not hesitate to argue that this image should NOT be exempted for some reason, and proceed to remove it on those grounds. Secondly, if you have looked at the picture, or even looked at the area Via Google Earth, or any other service (I have looked on 3 different services), you would see that the estate is surrounded by a fence, and the entire area is remote, mountainous, and is secured via a security checkpoint some distance away. Ergo, it would be very very unlikely that anyone would be able to walk up and take a picture like this. I would also argue that the vast majority of Wikipedians have niether their own helicopter, nor aircraft, from which a clear overall picture of PR's estate like this could be taken. Further, even if someone was capable of walking up to the front gate of this mansion, there's no way he/she could take in all of it, given its size and layout, thusly losing the point of this image, which seems to clearly demonstrate the opulence of PR's lifestyle. And finally, as pointed out by ] above, Google's policy allows Misplaced Pages to display this image, however, if Google does send a Cease and Desist I am willing to accede that they are the owner of that image, and abide by their wishes. Until then, '''I think the image should stay''' (again), clearly the controversy it is causing (see momento's last msg on his talk page where he says he is taking the image down as soon as his block is off) is a very strong indicator that this image is relevant and important.(BTW, Google's Use policy: http://earth.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=21422) ] (]) 06:18, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

The reason why detractors of PR want this picture in the articel is a transparent emotional maneuvre, bluntly to arouse envy and '''direct hostility towards a living person'''. Wiki should not be a part in this. It is not educational. There is no contradiction between teachings and lifestyle, but for that you have to READ the article. For the same reason supporters dismiss the picture. Misplaced Pages is not a tabloid, harping on peoples’ emotional push-buttons. People should read, and not use a loaded picture instead. '''Delete!'''--] (]) 10:09, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
*Possibly, but it definitely serves as an irreplaceable illustration of a major criticism of the subject of the article that has received notable criticism. The only reasonable argument is that a PD alternative might exist. Does anyone know what the US government's policy on their own satellite imagery is? Those might not be in the PD at all, for security reasons. ] (]) 10:38, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree, but the subject is a living person! There are guidelines for that.--] (]) 10:49, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
::I'm not sure that that's strictly relevant to FU... could you flesh that out a bit?
::What's FU? Fair Use? That is debatable in this case. But I assume, BLP overrules FU: ''Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid; it is not our job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives. An important rule of thumb when writing biographical material about living persons is "do no harm".'' (from ])--] (]) 14:36, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
:::I'm afraid for that to hold water, you'd have to claim it was ''inherently'' tabloid-ish to have a photo of someone's house regardless of how notable that house is. Which would be difficult to pull off. ] (]) 15:46, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

(<span class="plainlinks"></span><!-- Fix me: The included template outputs a section header, but Mediawiki with "require edit summaries" turned on won't save the page unless a section header is added. Also, if possible please populate the new talk page message with the name of the deleted image.--> | ]).
*This is a screenshot from Google Earth. There is no way that it can qualify for fair use as (1) you don't need to see a picture of his home to understand an article about him, (2) the US government makes satellite photos and it should be possible to find one from the US government (thus PD), (3) even if you can't find a US government photo, this is an existing building and thus someone could take a photo of it with a camera. This is a flagrant violation of our fair use policy. -- ] (]) 22:50, 9 February 2008 (UTC) *This is a screenshot from Google Earth. There is no way that it can qualify for fair use as (1) you don't need to see a picture of his home to understand an article about him, (2) the US government makes satellite photos and it should be possible to find one from the US government (thus PD), (3) even if you can't find a US government photo, this is an existing building and thus someone could take a photo of it with a camera. This is a flagrant violation of our fair use policy. -- ] (]) 22:50, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
*And it's just used for decoration too. '''Delete'''. ] (]) 22:54, 9 February 2008 (UTC) *And it's just used for decoration too. '''Delete'''. ] (]) 22:54, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
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::About ''this'' image being relevant, otherwise its OR, I am uncertain. It's an interesting point, but it doesn't quite add up somehow. I'll get back to you. ::About ''this'' image being relevant, otherwise its OR, I am uncertain. It's an interesting point, but it doesn't quite add up somehow. I'll get back to you.
::About replacement, I suppose you are correct that someone with a helicopter could conceivably have a free replacement. So from that point of view, you're quite right. So I'm leaning towards advising deletion. ] (]) 11:20, 10 February 2008 (UTC) ::About replacement, I suppose you are correct that someone with a helicopter could conceivably have a free replacement. So from that point of view, you're quite right. So I'm leaning towards advising deletion. ] (]) 11:20, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

*On which page are the "Wikipedians with helicopters" listed? Because if there are not any, then the image is not re-creatable, and the argument that it can be replaced with free content seems disingenuous. From viewing the surrounding area, it is clear you cannot get any pictures of this house from the ground, given the terrain, and all the trees near the front gate, even assuming you could get that close. Rainer P. it's probably best not to make assumptions about how long someone has been editing here, even if they are using a new account, just an observation. The picture has an effect because it's one thing to say "he has a 14,000 sq ft home (I don't know the actual numbers, this is just an example), and it's quite another thing to show a picture of a home, perched on the edge of a mountain, complete with a helipad, swimming pool, and tennis court. Both have an effect, however one is more accurate. As for the sensationalist aspect, I'm not sure it applies, his house, is what it is, that's not sensationalizing. "Sensationalism: subject matter, language, or style producing or designed to produce startling or thrilling impressions or to excite and please vulgar taste.", there is no style or design to this picture, it is merely a picture of an object, directly related to the subject at hand. (BTW, I edited out the duplication of all the comments someone accidentally pasted in here, no comments were removed, just un-duplicated).] (]) 18:15, 10 February 2008 (UTC)


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  • Copyvio: A cropped 90 degree turned version of the photo by Maria Margarita Ramos which can be found here. Of note that this user, based on the talk page, apparently has been rather busy uploading photos with questionable copyrights Rabo3 (talk) 07:10, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

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  • Another copyvio by this user (see also previous entry). This photo is copyrighted to Janie and Ric Finch, and can be found if going ca. 2/3 down this page and clicking on the link "Cave of the Guácharos". For a direct link, click here Rabo3 (talk) 07:24, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

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  • Orphan. Was used for Apolinar's Wren, but mistakenly ID'ed, and actually a Sedge Wren, where far better photos already available and used in the specific articles. Also a likely copyvio (see previous deletion requests for Guacharoscave.jpg and Lagartoazul.jpg involving the same user), as it is claimed to be photographed in near Bogotá (Colombia), but the subspecies-group of the Sedge Wren with a crown-pattern as that shown on the photo don't occur in Colombia (only in the nominate group from southernmost South America, and the stellaris group from North America). Rabo3 (talk) 08:01, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

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This is an image of a mini-game from Mario Party DS. It is of a boss mini-game, which is a bit silly. We should really have an image of another mini-game. Besuto (talk) 09:41, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

  • Keep, IfD is not the place for disputing what kind of image should be on an article; the article's talk page is for that. The image is licensed properly and serves an illustrative purpose. Redfarmer (talk) 12:44, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

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  • This is a screenshot from Google Earth. There is no way that it can qualify for fair use as (1) you don't need to see a picture of his home to understand an article about him, (2) the US government makes satellite photos and it should be possible to find one from the US government (thus PD), (3) even if you can't find a US government photo, this is an existing building and thus someone could take a photo of it with a camera. This is a flagrant violation of our fair use policy. -- B (talk) 22:50, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
  • And it's just used for decoration too. Delete. Stifle (talk) 22:54, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
    • How can you say this? If the photograph had no relevant point to the article, then why are the followers of Prem on Misplaced Pages in such an uproar over its display. It is clear that the photograph highlights hypocrisy from Prem. He preaches one thing and does the exact opposite. I would argue that most level headed people look with extreem suspicion at religious leaders who live this type of life. Just take Tammy Baker, or Miscavige for example. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Onefinalstep (talk • contribs) 05:55, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
  • In regards to B's first point, I found it very enlightening to see where PR lives. In this case, a picture truly is worth a thousand words, and I'm not sure we need to add that much more to this article. As to B's second point, if they think there's a PD image available, why not help everyone out and produce it? The image had a definite effect on my understanding of the article, and after viewing it, I can see why the pro-PR editors want very much to keep it out of the article. I would vote to keep it in. Maelefique (talk) 00:17, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
    • There's no fair use justification for using this image anywhere. We're not even pretending to use it for critical commentary on Google's service. We're claiming fair use merely because they have a photo that we like and we don't feel like paying them royalties. Regardless of replaceability, it doesn't qualify for fair use and if Google sent us a cease and desist, we would have no choice but to comply. As for where to find something free, http://www.usgs.gov/ has a lot of PD satellite imagery, mostly of US locations. If this person lives in India, I have no idea what they would have of there, but it's worth a look. But even if you can't find it there, we don't use a non-free image merely because we can't find a free one by googling for it. The building exists now. A Wikipedian who really wants to could take a photograph of it and publish it here. We don't have to rely on a non-free image. --B (talk) 01:22, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
      • There is an absolutely clear fair use justification. The photo is being used for educational purposes. Also, Misplaced Pages is not using the photograph in a commercial way. Even if we didn't have this justification (which is sound), Google's policy on allowing the use of its Google Earth photographs allows Misplaced Pages to display them. The photo is extremely well suited for the criticism portion of this article. It displays the wealthy lifestyle that Prem leads while he preaches that his followers should do much different. The photograph should stay up. Onefinalstep (talk) 05:49, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
      • There is fair use justification, you claim that a Wikipedian could take a picture himself. There are several problems with this, first of all that would make the Wikipedian in question a primary source with original research, and while images have enjoyed a " a broad exception from this policy" for articles, I don't believe that you can honestly tell me that some of the editors here who have already removed far less contentious content would not hesitate to argue that this image should NOT be exempted for some reason, and proceed to remove it on those grounds. Secondly, if you have looked at the picture, or even looked at the area Via Google Earth, or any other service (I have looked on 3 different services), you would see that the estate is surrounded by a fence, and the entire area is remote, mountainous, and is secured via a security checkpoint some distance away. Ergo, it would be very very unlikely that anyone would be able to walk up and take a picture like this. I would also argue that the vast majority of Wikipedians have niether their own helicopter, nor aircraft, from which a clear overall picture of PR's estate like this could be taken. Further, even if someone was capable of walking up to the front gate of this mansion, there's no way he/she could take in all of it, given its size and layout, thusly losing the point of this image, which seems to clearly demonstrate the opulence of PR's lifestyle. And finally, as pointed out by Onefinalstep above, Google's policy allows Misplaced Pages to display this image, however, if Google does send a Cease and Desist I am willing to accede that they are the owner of that image, and abide by their wishes. Until then, I think the image should stay (again), clearly the controversy it is causing (see momento's last msg on his talk page where he says he is taking the image down as soon as his block is off) is a very strong indicator that this image is relevant and important.(BTW, Google's Use policy: http://earth.google.com/support/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=21422) Maelefique (talk) 06:18, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

The reason why detractors of PR want this picture in the articel is a transparent emotional maneuvre, bluntly to arouse envy and direct hostility towards a living person. Wiki should not be a part in this. It is not educational. There is no contradiction between teachings and lifestyle, but for that you have to READ the article. For the same reason supporters dismiss the picture. Misplaced Pages is not a tabloid, harping on peoples’ emotional push-buttons. People should read, and not use a loaded picture instead. Delete!--Rainer P. (talk) 10:09, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

  • Possibly, but it definitely serves as an irreplaceable illustration of a major criticism of the subject of the article that has received notable criticism. The only reasonable argument is that a PD alternative might exist. Does anyone know what the US government's policy on their own satellite imagery is? Those might not be in the PD at all, for security reasons. Relata refero (talk) 10:38, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree, but the subject is a living person! There are guidelines for that.--Rainer P. (talk) 10:49, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure that that's strictly relevant to FU... could you flesh that out a bit?
What's FU? Fair Use? That is debatable in this case. But I assume, BLP overrules FU: Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid; it is not our job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives. An important rule of thumb when writing biographical material about living persons is "do no harm". (from WP:Biographies of living persons)--Rainer P. (talk) 14:36, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm afraid for that to hold water, you'd have to claim it was inherently tabloid-ish to have a photo of someone's house regardless of how notable that house is. Which would be difficult to pull off. Relata refero (talk) 15:46, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Aw, come on now, don't play naive. The ostentativly sensationalistic motive for the placement of this picture in this context should be visible to the blind. The first caption even read: "Prem Rawat's luxurious home in Malibu". Take e.g. the impact it had on user Maelefique (above): I found it very enlightening to see where PR lives. In this case, a picture truly is worth a thousand words, and I'm not sure we need to add that much more to this article. And he is an editor, even if only since yesterday. As it appears, righteous indignation over Rawat's house even motivated him to join the fray!--Rainer P. (talk) 16:18, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

On the other hand, a tag saying its a fair use screenshot of software should probably be replaced, as too specific to this particular image. It is the equivalent of a copy of a historically important photograph that happens to be available through a specific photography platform. Relata refero (talk) 10:44, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Delete. Unless that particular picture had been an object of public debate in the context of criticism of this guy, it both constitutes WP:OR and fails to qualify as fair use. I also agree with Rainer P. above that its inclusion is a transparent POV-pushing maneuvre. And it's replaceable too, because anyone can go and make a photograph of the place, be it from the air or from the ground. Get yourself a helicopter if you must. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:14, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
I have absolutely no opinion on the POV nature of its inclusion. It may well be the case. However, if there is a reasonable amount of material in the article about his house/houses, then it is a relevant illustration. (Perhaps you mean the inclusion of that material is transparent POV-pushing? Because this may be POV-pushing, but its a natural corollary of the material being in there in the first place.)
About this image being relevant, otherwise its OR, I am uncertain. It's an interesting point, but it doesn't quite add up somehow. I'll get back to you.
About replacement, I suppose you are correct that someone with a helicopter could conceivably have a free replacement. So from that point of view, you're quite right. So I'm leaning towards advising deletion. Relata refero (talk) 11:20, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
  • On which page are the "Wikipedians with helicopters" listed? Because if there are not any, then the image is not re-creatable, and the argument that it can be replaced with free content seems disingenuous. From viewing the surrounding area, it is clear you cannot get any pictures of this house from the ground, given the terrain, and all the trees near the front gate, even assuming you could get that close. Rainer P. it's probably best not to make assumptions about how long someone has been editing here, even if they are using a new account, just an observation. The picture has an effect because it's one thing to say "he has a 14,000 sq ft home (I don't know the actual numbers, this is just an example), and it's quite another thing to show a picture of a home, perched on the edge of a mountain, complete with a helipad, swimming pool, and tennis court. Both have an effect, however one is more accurate. As for the sensationalist aspect, I'm not sure it applies, his house, is what it is, that's not sensationalizing. "Sensationalism: subject matter, language, or style producing or designed to produce startling or thrilling impressions or to excite and please vulgar taste.", there is no style or design to this picture, it is merely a picture of an object, directly related to the subject at hand. (BTW, I edited out the duplication of all the comments someone accidentally pasted in here, no comments were removed, just un-duplicated).Maelefique (talk) 18:15, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

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