Revision as of 16:05, 10 December 2007

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Current issues

User talk:Joejoebilly

Look at that. And his contribs! The has repetedly recreated Pandapede and has been warned for it. User should be blocked. —Coastergeekperson04@11/27/2007 04:18

User:Pegasus got him. east.718 at 04:34, November 27, 2007

Community ban of spammer

Moved to Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Webgeek because this is 38kb of wikitext, 201kb post-expand, and literally half the rendered page.'

Executive summary: Webgeek (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and numerous IPs added many links to sites apparently run by him. —Random832 19:29, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Futuristic timestamp to keep this from getting archived by the bot: 23:59, 31 December 2037 (UTC)

SKS Copyvios

After coming from the recent shooting article, I found a copyvio tag on this article. After a little investigating, some portions of the article were direct word-for-word copy & pasted from the website http://www.gunnersden.com/index.htm.sks.html. I had to cull much of the article and I believe that I got most of it, but someone else should really take a second look.

Second point here, how in the world did we not pick this up before? The entire article on that website was incorporated into our article! This is copyvio at it's worst! Some of it was incorporated in the middle of a legitimate looking paragraph. This is quite alarming, given the copyright paranoia we have around here.

Anyways, the SKS article is now in need of a ton of TLC, so someone with much more knowledge than I have about weapons and guns (which is nill) needs to make this their top priority. -Royalguard11(T·R!) 17:17, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

How long has the copyvio been in the article? Is it possible that gunnersden.com could have copied it from the Misplaced Pages article? Corvus cornix_talk 17:20, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Actually, now that you mention it, that's a real possibility here. From what I can see, our page dates back over a year with some of that information. Hmm. -Royalguard11(T·R!) 17:37, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

I've requested help at WT:GUNS SQL 18:10, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

I've looked into this a little more, and it appears that they are the ones infringing on our copyright (the GFDL). I compared our article on the M14 rifle which theirs. Some sentences are the same again word-for-word, but I think the chances of us having directly copied two articles from them is slim (these are the only two similar ones I've found so far. Maybe looking way back in history's will revel more though?). I'm tempted to just restore the SKS article right now, but I'd like a second opinion before I go ahead. -Royalguard11(T·R!) 18:01, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

archive.org shows that gunnersden.com only recently added the text to that page. Definitely sounds like a reverse copyvio, though I haven't looked through the history to see exactly when they may have copied our article. Someone may want to examine any existing links to gunnersden.com to see if they are being used as references. --- RockMFR 20:43, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

We are being talked about

We are being talked about: today's Technology Guardian. (To be sure, they're not mentioning any names, but there are links to diffs and stuff.) 131.111.8.102 (talk) 18:33, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

• And what administrator action is required here? --jpgordon 18:34, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
• While perhaps - like sausages- it's better not to see the product being made, any familiarity with how Misplaced Pages operates should give rise to enormous scepticism about its alleged example of harmonious collective action. I find that to be a very accurate description of Misplaced Pages. Let's face it, it gets ugly behind the scenes. If people really thought that it was all peace, harmony, and cooperation happening here then I'd ask them what fantasy they're living in. If people can't accept that we're not perfect, then that's just pathetic. -Royalguard11(T·R!) 18:55, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

It's mainly slagging against Jimbo, and has to be taken with a grain of salt (or maybe a full shaker). But the statement that Jimbo is skillful in "knowing how to sell a dysfunctional community effectively" hits uncomfortably close to home. Raymond Arritt (talk) 19:05, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, he is. We're here, after all, and this place is damn dysfunctional, when you think about it. We just sort of manage to rise above it most of the time. ♠PMC♠ 06:42, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

The WP:AN pages are the worst of all for exposure to the dysfunctional elements of Misplaced Pages. If you spend a lot of time here, you may be getting an unbalanced perspective. Vast areas of Misplaced Pages are very close to harmonious a great deal of all the time. Try editing articles on plants, for example, or invertebrates, or weather or shipwrecks or heritage places or postage stamps or any other subject that people generally don't get hot under the collar about, and in general you'll find the place quite genteel. Hesperian 06:53, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I tend to hang out in rough neighborhoods. The global warming related and pseudoscience articles see some of the worst that Misplaced Pages has to offer, though it's not as bad as certain ethnic and national rivalries. Raymond Arritt (talk) 07:09, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

being employed to watch WP:AN would seriously suck.Geni 01:11, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Proposing unblock of User:RS1900

I am asking the community to consider allowing RS1900 (FKA Devraj5000) to edit again. He was banned for leaving a harassing message on my talk page. He has since apologized, and I accept his apology. I do not believe any other users were harassed. He has had a number of sockpuppets, which were used in two AfD discussions, and was also uncivil with me on a few occasions. I am unaware of any other misbehavior. I know him to be a generally constructive and prolific editor who has made positive contributions to articles in many areas, particularly physics. He has also added many valuable citations to the List of atheists article, on which we cooperated in the past. I understand that I am not the only one affected by his behavior, but I believe his pledge to no longer engage in such behavior is sincere, and that he will prove to be a constructive editor again. Nick Graves (talk) 18:59, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, unblock an editor with a record of harassment and abusive sockpuppetry because he promises to be a nice boy. Sure, why not. Raymond Arritt (talk) 19:01, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

While I appreciate your expression of goodwill toward this editor - and your word goes a long way in this - it simply has not been long enough to make me feel comfortable, given the level of harassment in which this user engaged. I, personally, will not unblock this user. Other admins may, of course, have other opinions. As of now, I think this user deserves a good long break. It speaks highly of you to request this, however. - Philippe | Talk 19:03, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

I note Misplaced Pages:Suspected sock puppets/RS1900 and Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive304#RS1900 personal attacks and threats as prior related discussion. GRBerry 19:15, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Has he pledged to stick to one account, and will he accept mentorship? If the only target of the harassment is willing to let bygones be bygones, then I'd support a trial if the banned editor agrees to reasonable steps. The ban can be imposed if problems resume, and maybe the gesture of reconciliation will turn things around. Durova 21:59, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

He has not made such a pledge yet, though that would be a natural prerequisite for unblocking, and mentoring is a good idea too, along with the "good long break" advised by Philippe above. He has not responded to my latest message, and may have left Misplaced Pages for good. I will leave him a link to this thread once it is archived, to give him an idea of what would likely be expected of him before he could return to editing, if he happens to check the latest messages there. Nick Graves (talk) 11:11, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

I declined his unblock request the other day but now that he has clearly acknowledged the inappropriateness of his comment and you have accepted his apology and are advocating for his unblock, I would be willing to unblock him after he has sat out a fair period of time on the understanding that any return of such behaviour or use of sockpuppets outside policy will result in the block being reinstated immediately. Sarah 12:48, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

User:Baderimre passed away

Dr. Imre Báder passed away some time ago, his funeral was on December 3. Besides being a professor of the University of Miskolc he was also an editor of the Hungarian, English and German Misplaced Pages and a contributor of Wikimedia Commons. His user name here is User:Baderimre (hu:User:Bader in his "home wiki"). May he rest in peace.

I'm not sure about the exact procedure in situations like these (protecting and blocking his userpage etc.), so please help me with that. The discussion in huwiki about him is (mostly) here, though in Hungarian. See also: request on Admin Noticeboard in Commons () Thank you! --Hu:Totya (talk!) 22:32, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

• Note left on user and talk pages, and both pages protected. BLACKKITE 00:03, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I've blocked the account indefinitely as well to prevent any possibility of the account resurrecting itself with someone who shouldn't have access to it. -Jéské 00:14, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Dying is not a reason to be blocked. This was removed from the blocking policy over a year ago. I feel user talk pages should be left open so people can leave memorial-type messages there as they did for Caroline Thompson. (It would be good to stop the bots adding things like "orphaned fair use image" warnings to such pages though.) See also Misplaced Pages:Deceased Wikipedians. Angela. 00:23, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I ditto that; block if there is some future abuse of the account, but not preemptively. There's always a chance of erroneous reports in such matters (Saint Francis and Mark Twain both come to mind). -- Kendrick7 00:28, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

We have 3 different sources (collague, social networking site and an obituary notice), so I'm afraid it's not erroneous report. Still, I respect your decision and the policy. And thanks for the note and protection on his user page. --Hu:Totya (talk!) 00:44, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I asked about this last time someone died and was pointed to the fact that everyone in that category is blocked as the precedent. Also, if you were to unprotect the talk page, you could add {{nobots}} to stop the bots. John Reaves 01:20, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

We have proof that someone died. Do we have proof that that person is Baderimre? According to Angela and Kendrick7, this person should be unblocked. Congolese (talk) 03:10, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

I am not sure it is a good idea to prevent bots from leaving messages on a deceased wikipedian talk page. If somebody monitors the talk page they would fix the fair used images, etc. Otherwise the images would be slowly get deleted and I guess it is not the deceased would want Alex Bakharev (talk) 04:29, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

The dead don't monitor their talk pages, and no one else will be doing it for them. If images are being deleted when the person who uploaded them disappears, then something is seriously dysfunctional about the image deletion process. - Nunh-huh 04:46, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Can someone e-mail me or post to my talk page a translation of the relevant info at so I can add him to Misplaced Pages:Deceased Wikipedians?--Alabamaboy (talk) 17:45, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Streamlining "Did You Know?"

I’ve noticed lately that DYK updates are a little slow coming at times, and some of the DYK regulars are rather vocal about seeing it updated often. The process in place right now is a pretty lousy one. The process could be improved and updates always made on time by borrowing Raul’s process for Today's Featured Article. I bring this proposal here since administrators are the ones tasked with seeing this updated every six hours.

Instead of constantly updating {{Did You Know}}, we should create individual pages for each set of hooks to be put on the mainpage, like so:

• Misplaced Pages:Did you know/December 6, 2007/0
• Misplaced Pages:Did you know/December 6, 2007/6
• Misplaced Pages:Did you know/December 6, 2007/12
• Misplaced Pages:Did you know/December 6, 2007/18

and so on. The pages will update each day at the 0th, 6th, 12th, and 18th hour UTC. The actual update will happen without direct admin intervention automagically. We’ll replace the {{Did you know}} code on the main page with {{Misplaced Pages:Did you know/{{CURRENTMONTHNAME}} {{CURRENTDAY}}, {{CURRENTYEAR}}/{{#expr: {{CURRENTHOUR}} – ({{CURRENTHOUR}} mod 6)}}}}. Of course, to keep the would-be Main Page vandals at bay, the titles for the pages would need to be protected in advance, either at Protected Titles or by IARbot. We'd also have to create a page with updating instructions.

There are some immediate benefits to this approach:

• It allows admins to work ahead on DYK. In one sitting, an admin could queue up the hooks for a couple day’s worth of DYKs. In the meantime, other admins can add new sets of hooks for later on.
• Any editor who spots an improvement to the already created hook pages can post an {{editprotected}} request directly to that talkpage, often before it even goes to the mainpage.
• It would be easy to make a warning template using the #ifexist parser function to say "Hey you! Admins! The next set of DKY hooks is not made yet. The next update is at 18:00 UTC. Chop chop!" We can make it big and red and threatening, and include it at the top of WP:AN and WP:ANI. No bots needed. The template would only show if the next page to be included had not been created yet.
• I keep a lookout for typos and other errors on Today's Featured Article at User:HiDrNick/TFA blurbs. It would be easy to create a similar page for the upcoming DKYs, both so that admins see at a glance how far ahead the updating is done, and to keep as many eyes on the upcoming hooks as possible.

Thoughts? ➪HiDrNick! 06:32, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

That strikes me, for one, as a supremely fine idea. Joe 06:45, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Isn't this something that is best discussed at Misplaced Pages talk:Did you know? --Edward Morgan Blake (talk) 08:30, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

It sounds like a good idea, anyway: For instance, a day or two ago, we were working on 6-day old tags still (which we're not supposed to do) - but the second update of the day came about 5 hours late. . Adam Cuerden 08:34, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I've added a note over there directing interested parties to here. I checked out Template talk:Did you know before posting here, and it looked like clearly the wrong place to post. I didn't realize that there was a WT:DYK. ➪HiDrNick! 09:24, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't like this idea. It effectively shuts out non-admins from most of the updating process. I've just started working in this area and I've found it's something I enjoy, if it's going to be left entirely up to admins, with me having to post an "editprotected" request every time I want to experiment with even a minor tweak, then there is no longer any incentive for me to participate.

Also, in regards to the "big warning template" to post on AN/I, I'm certainly in favour of that, but then if we are going to have regular warnings on AN/I, I think the problem is largely solved in any case, because my guess is that there are generally plenty of non-admin interested parties hanging around who would be more than happy to post a "big warning template" whenever the update is 15 minutes overdue :) Gatoclass (talk) 09:48, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I like the idea of automating the process to ensure regularity of updating and easing the process of making Main Page changes. When DYK is delayed, it reduces the number of opportunities for new articles to make it to the main page, which is frustrating for those waiting to get on. (Also, as a new admin with a few DYKs under my belt, I'd be happy to lend a hand but at present am a little nervous about stuffing up!) However, I take Gatoclass's point about involving non-admins in selection. Why not, as now, allow non-admins to add suggestions to the update until it has been completed and is ready for the main page, and only then give it full protection? Excluding non-admins from selecting suggestions from the list of candidates and adding them to the update will in fact increase the load on admins rather than reduce it. Bencherlite 09:57, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

One thing that might be more useful is to have some way of automating the crediting. Distributing 10-30 templates throughout the project - talk pages, article pages, etc - and having to manually prepare the contents of each template is annoying. Surely it could be at least partially automated. Adam Cuerden 10:04, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

That's a good idea too. Crazy that something like that isn't automated IMO. Gatoclass (talk) 10:19, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

: Excluding non-admins from selecting suggestions from the list of candidates and adding them to the update will in fact increase the load on admins rather than reduce it. - Bencherlite

I think you are correct on the last point. I almost singlehandedly did two updates yesterday because no-one else seemed to be around, if I hadn't done so someone else - probably an admin - would have had to do the job instead.

As to "why not allow non-admins to add suggestions until it has been completed, and then protect" - might I suggest that the page be protected automatically at a certain point in the process? Let's say, the page is protected one hour before it is due to be posted. If it's not finished at that stage, an individual or bot can post the "big red warning" at ANI.

Having an auto-protect feature would not only obviate the need for manual protection, it would also let all users know exactly how long before the page was to be protected, so they could keep working to improve the update up to that point.

If there's to be an auto-protect though, might I suggest that the auto-protect also generates an auto-warning on AN/I for some admin to go and validate that the page is actually in a fit state to be posted and that it hasn't been vandalized. In that case you could dispense with the "big red warning" altogether because there would be a reminder on AN/I to check the update every six hours anyway. Gatoclass (talk) 10:15, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Just to take the idea a little further, you could have some sort of admin validation process to stop the update posting if no-one had checked the contents. In other words, it goes like this: an hour before the update is due, the update is auto-protected and a message generated on AN/I for someone to go and check it's okay. The admin checking that it's okay then has some sort of admin-only button he can use to inform the software the update has been checked and is good to post. If no admin hits the button by the time the update is due, the software does not post the update but instead sends another message to AN/I saying it's still waiting for confirmation. Gatoclass (talk) 10:28, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

• I know this might be a dumb idea, but is there a way to have certain users given Admin powers, but restricted to DYK duties only? That way, we won't have the lags in updating and whatnot because we can have a healthy pool of admins to update as needed. --293.xx.xxx.xx (talk) 11:25, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I hate to be the knee-jerk opposition to change here, but non-admins do so much of the next update template that I'm not sure if this is a very good idea. Also, in my experience, the DYK regulars don't complain much about the next update being late. I think the regulars are used to it. Newcomers to the project often complain, but it's worth bearing in mind that "6 hours" and "5-days-old" are just arbitrary goals to keep the pressure on. Ninety percent of the time it's not a problem to have a 6-day-old hook and a template that's updated every 8 hours. Why would it be? The purpose is not rules for the sake of rules. The purpose is to get recognition and incentive for people who start good new articles instead of stubby ones. Unless the project is overlooking lots of good hooks (and this very rarely happens) then I don't think we should rejigger the mechanism. --JayHenry (talk) 15:05, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

It seems like a good idea in principle to me, but it needs to be unprotected. What if we got rid of the automation, but did have the pages for each update? Whoever is updating simply looks at the page history and can evaluate the edits of anyone they didn't recognize to make sure they were constructive (and make sure it was updated at all--the possibility of that mistake seems as likely as intentional vandalism). As it is, the next update template is unprotected, and is often filled by non-admins (like Gatoclass) which greatly helps the admins (and gives them valuable experience too, if they're interested in an RFA). I do like the idea of being able to plan the updates in advance, though. That seems like it might go smoother. Rigadoun (talk) 15:31, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

No. Technically, it is impossible. Titoxd 20:51, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

This wouldn't have to exclude non-admins from the process at all; in fact, the idea is to take away a lot of the load already borne here by admins. All editors would still prepare sets of hooks to go on the mainpage, they would just post completed sets to a new (unprotected) holding page where they could be reviewed by other editors until an admin comes along, verifies that the content is appropriate for the mainpage and has not been vandalized, and posts them to the end of the existing queue. Since an admin could post a few sets of these at a time, DYK would be updated like clockwork with less admin work and little change in the actual selection process used now. Basically, instead of working on the set of hooks to be posted in a few hours, you might be working on a set of hooks that would be posted in 54 hours or so. ➪HiDrNick! 18:15, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, that's fine, but it doesn't address the problem of the updates being chronically late, which is the subject of this thread. I think I'd be satisfied at this stage with auto-alerts to AN/I every six hours. If the update turns out to be not ready, then the clock can be reset from the time when the next update is posted. Gatoclass (talk) 20:29, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

• This doesn't strike me as a particularly good idea. DYK, unlike the other sections of the main page, has a requirement that an article needs to be created recently. That doesn't really allow to effectively use a subpage model, as the pages can only be worked on for a few days before the deadline. Additionally, having more pages requires having more pages in one's watchlist, which then allows for errors and mistakes to be harder to find. Titoxd 20:51, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
• I and a few others are working on a few ideas to get the whole process streamlined and a bot or two involved to help with the checking of articles and such. WT:DYK is a much better place for this whole conversation. spryde | talk 21:25, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Okay, how about something like this:

Create a set of 28 pages, 4 for each day of the week like

Template:Did you know/Monday/0

Template:Did you know/Monday/6

Template:Did you know/Monday/12

Template:Did you know/Monday/18

Replace the current {{Did you know}} on the main page with {{Did you know/{{CURRENTDAYNAME}}/{{#expr:{{CURRENTHOUR}}-({{CURRENTHOUR}} mod 6)}}}}

Which for Sunday at 20:50, returns Template:Did you know/Sunday/18. This means that the pages would only be protected when they are on the main page (through the cascading protection) and would otherwise be open to add new hooks.

To prevent people from disrupting them immediately before they get on the main page, another cascade protected page, Misplaced Pages:Did you know/Next hooks could be created with {{Did you know/{{#ifexpr:{{CURRENTHOUR}}>18|{{#time:l|+ 1 day}}/0|{{CURRENTDAYNAME}}/{{#expr:{{CURRENTHOUR}}-({{CURRENTHOUR}} mod 6)+6}}}}}}. The #time: function is so that it will transclude the next day's "0" hour hook if it is after 18:00. For Sunday at 20:50, it returns Template:Did you know/Monday/0.

This set-up allows any user (or the templates can all be semi-protected) to make the updates and gives a six hour window before they are on the main page where they are full protected for admin review. It allows updates to be made well in advance, without creating 4 new templates every day, the old ones are simply overwritten. Except for the initial set-up and fixing any possible issues with the next update, this would not require admins at all and as the pages cycle, there is no reason to constantly create new pages and DYK people can have all 28 on their watchlist. Mr.Z-man 21:37, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I've created an example of what the system could look like in my userspace. See all the pages here. I created example pages for today and tomorrow (UTC), using the current hooks and the archive. Mr.Z-man 03:05, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

In principle I'm not against giving a system like this a try, but again I come back to the fact that this thread was started out of concerns regarding the chronic lateness of the updates, not the best way to organize their creation. I don't see how this proposal is going to have much impact on the former.

In regards to the proposal itself, it seems unnecessarily complex to me. If you think an update queue is a good idea, what's wrong with just allowing the next two or three updates to be listed on the same page as the current next update page? It might be worthwhile at least trying that to see if queueing is of any benefit before we start thinking of more elaborate queueing schemes. Gatoclass (talk) 10:26, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, from what I understand, the problem is that you need an admin to move the update from the update page to the protected template. With what I proposed, you really don't need an admin at all. Instead of the non-admins putting the update on a next update page and then going to ANI when no admin moves them, they put them on a page that will be transcluded onto the main page automatically at the correct time and you remove the extra step of moving them to the protected template. The only reason to go to ANI then would be if something needs to be corrected on the page that's currently on the main page or the next one. I really fail to see how automatically complaining to ANI is going to do anything more than annoy and fill up the page with DYK update requests. Mr.Z-man 15:49, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

As with Gatoclass, in principle I'm not against giving this system a try. (We should note, of course, that it's quite the opposite of streamlining.) For one thing, I don't think "Having the update done well in advance" is a goal we necessarily want to pursue. We already get complaints, sometimes pretty savage and disheartening, every time a hook doesn't get properly screened. If we reduce the amount of time on the suggestions page, we reduce the amount of screening. Having some flexibility is good. For example, there's not a lot of people around from 4-12 UCT on a Saturday. Americans are going to sleep, the Brits are just waking up, the Australians are out partying and sometimes the template doesn't get updated. With this system of locking templates, if a non-admin doesn't do it, then you have a sort of race against the clock scenario to find an admin who's willing to update the template and walk him through it before a blank DYK page goes up. Will there be an easy way to tell what hours are ready and what aren't? Other than adding 28 pages to the watchlist? I guess I still have a lot of unresolved concerns about why we're making this change. (And actually, I don't understand why we're having the discussion here instead of with the people who actually update DYK). --JayHenry (talk) 15:46, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, the current method requires an admin to do the update within a very short timeframe. The system I proposed only requires an admin if no one has prepared an update within 6 hours of it getting on the main page (and the timing for autoprotection of the next update could be adjusted as well if 6 hours is too long). Unless you get an adminbot to do the updates, there's no technical way to ensure that updates are done in a timely manner using only 1 template. The TFA, "On this day," and the POTD all use a date based template system. ITN doesn't because it is updated on an irregular basis. Mr.Z-man 16:00, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Wait a second, do I understand correctly that people have been starting ANI threads when the update is 1 or 2 hours late? If so, we can add a notice on various places explaining that this is not necessary and should not be done. Rigid six-hour updating, in my opinion at least, is not one of DYK's purposes. The purpose is to encourage the creation of good new articles (instead of forgotten stubs) through a system of recognition and eyeballs to an interesting element of the new article. Right now we're not back-logged at all, and so if the weekend updates are a little slower it actually gives hooks a little more time to be reviewed at the suggestions page. --JayHenry (talk) 17:17, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Regardless, I think there is some justification for creating multiple updates ahead of time. I could have done two or three myself in the last few hours, but I didn't because there is no place to put them. I guess I could have queued them on the "Next Update" page itself, but since I don't know the mechanics of updating, I'm not sure if that's practical.

As for people complaining about DYK being only a couple of hours late, I agree that an hour or two isn't much of a problem but only today it was more than six hours late again. A few days ago IIRC it was more than ten hours late. Gatoclass (talk) 17:56, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Coped from Misplaced Pages talk:Did you know:

I really think it'd speed up updating if we could come up with some way to use a bot and templates to clear the credits section, flagging up anything it can't deal with somewhere where it can be done by hand.

Here's how my ideal bot would work:

An admin reviews the prepared next update, then pushes a button. This button will only work if an admin presses it. The bot copies the prepared section to the front page template and the archive. It then goes through the credits sections, and handles all of them that are properly templated, then sets up the page ready for the nextt update, keeping only crediting work it was unable to deal with. The admin does any remaining notifications by hand, checks the next update is good, and is done. Should no admin press the button within an hour of the time it should have been, a message appears at the top of WP:ANI. How close we can get to my ideal, I do not know. But that's how I would work it in an ideal world.

In an even more ideal world, the bot could also be given a list of trusted non- admins eligible to press the button. Adam Cuerden talk 19:54, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Im going to write that bot, and Ive got some ideas that will make it even more user and non-admin friendly, along with being on time. :P Ill work on a method, and hash out the details on the DKY talk page and with DYK regulars. β 17:24, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Rex Germanus

I'm getting quite fed up with User:Rex Germanus. Since I'm definitely not neutral on this (involved gradually in different editing disputes with him), I am bringing this here for general consideration (since the CSN board is closed down), to see what (if anything) should be done.

Since his return from a month long block on November 13, Rex has continued his disruptive behaviour, but is now supported by a number of IP adresses, including 145.93.125.93, 145.93.123.60, 145.93.126.83 and 145.93.124.84, all coming from Fontys Hogescholen. I have no idea if this is a sock- or meatpuppet, but it makes the situation even worse.

Problems are: asking for references without ever providing some themselves (e.g. on Dutchland, West Flemish, or Van Beethoven family). Instead of replacing German with Dutch, his new topic is replacing Flemish with Dutch, even when it is incorrect, as in Jean Bart. He moved Dunkirkers to Dunkirk Raiders, and was unwilling to consider that he was wrong even when presented with references, and (again) without presenting any counterreferences himself, only his assertions (see User Talk:Rex Germanus#Dunkirkers). In these and other discussions, his (and the IP's) discussion and edit summaries where very often uncivil and personal, and very rarely constructive. Talk:West Flemish#Y vs. IJ is a good illustration of this.

Finally, edits like this one are to me unacceptable.

This is a complicated situation in which I am a party, but I seriously doubt if Rex has changed a bit since his last block, and if he is beneficial to Misplaced Pages. I have not issued any formal warnings, since (coming from me) they would probably only inflame the situation, instead of helping. Fram (talk) 10:07, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Since he's been warned off editing German topics, Rex certainly seems to have acquired a bee in his bonnet about all things Flemish. The disruption is at a much lower intensity than before, but it's still there. --Folantin (talk) 10:16, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

All edits made displayed here where either because I had (better) sources or because others lacked them. I stand by all of them.

'Disrupted Topic' according to Fram:

Jean Bart: Being Dutch-born, ethnic sense, (Dunkirk being almost completely etnically Dutch at the time of his birth) doesn't say anything about nationality; the source of your confusion as noted in your edits.

Dunkirkers: Explained at my talkpage, point of concern? 'Dunkirkers' also refers to people from Dunkirk in general. Simple as that.

Van Beethoven Family: In the Beethoven question, which I've dropped as announced on the talk page) I proved my point that Flemish meant Dutch in beethovens time (and his ancestors times). Fran/Folentin demanded something more specific (what could cover my point more I ask myself). If that's 'not ever providing sources' then I don't know what that is.

For example Another false accusation to add to my list. I do use sources, more than any of the people mentioned above. This report to me is just a clear example of how these people try to push their changes on wikipedia without referencing. A small step from unfounded opinions, to personal attacks and allegations and now ... and attempt to block or similar. Sad, if you think you're right, go to library and find out for sure.Rex (talk) 15:28, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Also, I deny all accusations made by Erik Warmelink who accuses me of using sock/meatpuppets. I have never used them and never will. Just because an IP (I assume it is the same person) disagrees with you and supports me doesn't make it a sock, it just makes 2 vs 1.Rex (talk) 15:30, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Well then, quote the starting 10 words of the entry on "beethof" on http://www.etymologie.nl/ (I get: Lemma niet gevonden! Dit deel van het Etymologisch Woordenboek van …, crude translation: Lemma not found! This part of the etymological glossary of …), give a reliable source that links "van Beethoven" with Beets or the Betuwe, give a source that "van Beethoven" was ever used as a familyname in the Netherlands, give a reliable source that "proves" that Flemish meant Dutch in Beethovens time. Just because several IPs agree with you, doesn't make them socks; if all they do is agreeing with you (even repeating your accusation that I would lie) and reverting to your versions (without interwiki's that were added and with spelling errors that were corrected), appearances are against you. Also explain this edit summary. Erik Warmelink (talk) 16:43, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

I invite everyone to look at the edits linked, and compare them with the actual statements by Rex Germanus. E.g. the Van Beethoven family edit I linked has nothing to do with the Flemish vs. Dutch dispute, and Rex Germanus ignores the other, more recent pages listed (e.g. Dutchland is a very nice example, and West Flemish, where Rex Germanus makes even this evening clearly invalid statements on the talk page). Perhaps Rex uses sources, but he certainly doesn't provide them. Fram (talk) 21:33, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Do not confuse yourself with me. I do provide sources. Look at Dutch people, over 110 references, nearly all added by me, I know how to reference.Rex (talk) 10:02, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

You have not provided sources for any of the disputes mentioned here: I'm glad that you know how to do it, but that doesn't excuse your behaviour in the last month. Why do you say here that "some people love fights" while going from a more to a less correct page?. Why do you make such clearly invalid statements like this one? Why did you change from one unsourced spelling to another unsourced one, but then accuse me of OR when I provide an independent but unreliable source (which of course is not OR at all), while not providing any source at all to support your version? And why are you so uncivil in nearly all your edits and edit summaries (when you use them)? Fram (talk) 13:37, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

What's less correct Fram? Explain that to me. That note on West Flemish is really a cry for help for your behavior. Your 'arguments' were/are completely discredited on talk and still you revert to your version. Also you did not, hence no links, in the entire West Flemish discussion provide any reference. So don't make it seem you did.Rex (talk) 14:39, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Good grief, are we still dealing with this guy? How many kilobytes of AN and ANI discussion have been devoted to his antics? When is enough provocation enough? Raymond Arritt (talk) 16:47, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Keep your good griefs to yourself and focus on what's presented, not how many times a name comes up on a page you happen to watch.Rex (talk) 00:55, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

I'd move for a ban to stop Rex wasting any more of our time. He's just a Dutch nationalist logic-chopper with a grudge against Germans and, now it seems, the Flemish. --Folantin (talk) 09:34, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

You people can go on making more melodramatic comments here for as long as you want, in every case here I provided references, others did and an the contributions button will show anyone that Erik Warmelink started all this with his on purpose nonsense reverts. He even stated against an IP how much he hates me. Ridiculous. I'm off continuing referenced editing. Some of you ought to try that too sometimes.Rex (talk) 10:05, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

That's an interesting way to summarize I don't hate Rex Germanus and No, I don't hate Rex Germanus. Erik Warmelink (talk) 00:21, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

This really is nonsense. If someone askes references? or if he is a little bit nationalistic? Dit kinse toch neet meer geluive. --Ooswesthoesbes (talk) 16:04, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Rex I have met you editing for over a year now, and most of it you have been engaged in one or more disputes. Although I have had my own disputes in that time, and made a comparable number of edits as you in that year, I have never been accused of any gross violation, no official complaint was ever listed against me. It cannot be only other editors bad-faith towards you that cause you being involved in so many formal procedures; it can only mean you are doing something wrong. Please consider this. Arnoutf (talk) 19:00, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

A clear cut example. The first adress of Erik Warmelink on talk was not a plea for his own version and why it was better, but a direct personal attack. A rant about how many blocks I've had. How do you see any good faith in that?Rex (talk) 19:44, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

From my POV, it started with this edit. My edit was after my additions to Talk:Van Beethoven family#Meertens reference, which Rex Germanus ignored. Erik Warmelink (talk) 00:21, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Community ban discussion

Last time we discussed Rex Germanus (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) on October 13, I blocked him for one month and suggested that further disruption should result in an indefinite block. Rex Germanus' long block log is strong evidence that he has worn out the community's patience. Before placing an indefinite block, I would like to run a checkuser to see if there is any sockpuppetry involved, and I'd also like to see a concise list of diffs showing disruption since the most recent block. - Jehochman 19:58, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

I have filed Misplaced Pages:Requests for checkuser/Case/Rex Germanus, and here is a set of diffs that demonstrate edit warring if these IP's are in fact Rex Germanus: -- If not, there may be other evidence sufficient to justify a community ban. - Jehochman 20:16, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Wie een hond wil slaan, vindt licht een stok. Go find your stick Jehochman. Surprise me.Rex (talk) 20:20, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Do you know anything about the IP editor(s) who have been supporting you in these content disputes? - Jehochman 20:31, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Clearly they/he/she must be insane, rude and nationalistic assholes. Why else would the IP(s) support me? I can't even comprehend that myself, I can only imagine how you felt in all your biased glory when you saw them! Poor you. Rex (talk) 20:53, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

• (ec) The checkuser result is "Possible". Given the identical point of view of the IP's and Rex Germanus, and the lack of technical evidence to the contrary, I am inclined to accept the assertions made by Fram (talk · contribs). Rex Germanus has apparently returned to his previous editing style which has resulted in approximately 15 different blocks, placed by diverse members of the Misplaced Pages admin corps. I think Rex Germanus has expended the community's patience and the time has come to ask him, politely but firmly, to leave the project. (add) Rude comments won't help your cause, Rex Germanus. - Jehochman 21:04, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

• This diff shows an IP removing properly sourced content, using an deceptive "Interwiki" edit summary: The IP is Rex Germanus: - Jehochman 22:17, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Good catch. And if that IP is Rex, we have at the very least a breach of the revert parole, as he repeated the same revert under his account the next day (, ). However, that IP is not from the same range as the others, from a university in Tilburg. Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:28, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

(Unindent) Editing at home, school/work, and a cafe will result in different IPs. I think we should mainly consider the styles of editing, and the tone of Rex Germanus' comments on this very thread. - Jehochman 23:01, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Deleting User Talk pages

I was on break for 6 months, so I may have missed a policy change here. But I'm noticing an increasing phenomena of usertalk pages being deleted citing "right to vanish". Now in some case of harassment this may well be necessary, and in the cases of accounts that have contributed little it may be harmless. But I think it can be very harmful where the talkpage contains a long record of community discussion. Unlike userpages, usertalk pages don't belong to one user - and their deletion, as opposed to blanking, may well prejudice others users who have posted there by removing the context for undeleted posts elsewhere.

I note the meta right to vanish page states: "Your user and talk pages, and their subpages, and other non-article pages that no others have substantively contributed to and whose existence does not impact the project, may be courtesy blanked or deleted." But, with users who have been substantial contributors that doesn't seem to apply as 1) others HAVE substantially contributed 2) it may well have impact on the project. There is certainly no WP:CSD authorising administrators to delete on a RTV demand. These deletions breaching standing policy.

I'd like one of the following to happen, either:

1. Cease the practice, unless there is WP:OFFICE or WP:OTRS testimony that, in a particular case, the existence of the pages is thought to cause a real issue for privacy, harassment, or other abuse. Not just user request, unless the pages contain no substantial discussion.
2. Or develop a clear policy and amend the WP:CSD. I've read the meta page carefully, and I see no foundation mandate here that overrides this community's right to decide.

--Doc 12:16, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I think it's not really an English Misplaced Pages issue (m:Right to vanish), which states that it is a "long standing right of any user on any Wikimedia project". x42bn6 Talk Mess 13:36, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Read that page - it clearly states that the scope for the deletion of user talk pages under this "right" is very limited. There is no foundation policy that mandates this. See my direct quote above. I'm quoting from m:Right to vanish: "Your user and talk pages, and their subpages, and other non-article pages that no others have substantively contributed to and whose existence does not impact the project, may be courtesy blanked or deleted.", and note "may be" and "blanked" - there is no right to have talkpages deleted on request here..--Doc 13:38, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Alright. *strikes previous post* x42bn6 Talk Mess 13:42, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I noticed this recently, when I denied a db-usereq on a talk page but courtesy blanked it instead (which to me seems fair enough). A minute or so later, someone came along and deleted it anyway, citing Right to Vanish. It wasn't worth wheeling over, but I was pretty sure I had policy on my side. I'll second either of Doc's potential solutions. ➔ REDVEЯS likes kittens... and you 13:55, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I believe courtesy blanking should be enough. What would be the advantages of deleting rather than a simple courtesy blank? Mahalo. --Ali'i 14:16, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree, in my opinion long standing user's user talk pages shouldn't be deleted if there is no privacy concern. -- lucasbfr 14:16, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I also think that we shouldn't delete user talk pages, however the user could have personal information on there (not necessarily stuff for oversight, but things like real name, approximate location etc.) they might not want that available. I think that blanking would be enough but that's a concern that some people might have. James086 14:21, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Anyone with such material can ask for the appropriate revisions to be deleted (or oversighted) and that can be done. But total deletion, removing all discussions, for the sake of a revision or two, is overkill. ➔ REDVEЯS likes kittens... and you 14:29, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I also find deleting talk pages to be problematic, and have declined many CSD tags on talk pages. The db-userreq even says "User talk pages are generally not speedy-deletable per this guideline". Natalie (talk) 16:19, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I think Doc makes good sense here -- blank, don't delete. One problem in deleting Talk pages of departed users is that we might inadvertently remove important chunks of conversations that helped to determine consensus. This is very important the further back one goes, when the rules were very loose. And remember that although an Admin can undelete a page, this is entirely at the developer's whim. Some day the developers might decide that they need drive space on the server &, without warning, purge all deleted pages that had been deleted more than 30 days before! -- llywrch (talk) 20:19, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I disagree with Doc, because I think that calls for unnecessary bureaucracy. If someone is actually leaving Misplaced Pages, and says they want to delete their own user talk page to protect their privacy, I would rather just do it than make them jump through hoops they may not ever hear about. Blanking a talk page doesn't remove things from the history from being visible to anyone who wants to look for them. That said, I have noticed some cases where such users then came back to Misplaced Pages, and I would like to see the user talk pages either restored in such cases, or be given a good reason why they need to remain deleted. 20:28, 7 December 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mangojuice (talk • contribs)

I'm not sure how many people actually claim that they want to delete their page for privacy reasons. Most people seem to just tag everything, usertalk included, and never mention privacy. Natalie (talk) 21:57, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't think they need to explicitly invoke "right to vanish" or specifically say they have privacy concerns. I'd rather assume they want the page deleted, not blanked, because that's what they asked for and if they're leaving I see no reason not to simply respect the request and comply with it. All of these editors know how to blank the page themselves, but that's not what they're doing. Mangojuice 16:54, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

• I fully agree with Doc. While privacy reasons would be a good reason for deleting somebody's talk page, such concerns are quite rare. It seems much more common for a user to, in effect, storm off in a huff, and want his stuff to be removed. I have seen several of such pages turn up on MFD and/or DRV and end up restored; in general, I believe that as long as they contain community discussion, they should be restored. >Radiant< 22:50, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I'd have to say that the majority of the requests that I see, especially through OTRS aren't privacy concerns. In fact, usually its "I did something silly or said something I'm not proud of now and I want to make it go away". We can always oversight any particular privacy concerns; this doesn't require deleting an entire talk page. Shell 03:14, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Do we have a compelling reason to keep embarrassing stuff around about a user when they want to leave? Deletion is no big deal. Mangojuice 16:55, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Agree with Mangojuice here. Sometimes we take ourselves a bit too seriously. That cute kid in the charity ad isn't going to die because we deleted a userpage squabble about a Pokemon character. There's not going to be a geopolitical crisis because we deleted a flamefest over the proper capitalization of a word in some obscure article. But real people can be embarrassed, or even actively harmed, by stuff left on their talk page. The default should be that we respect people's wishes on this point unless there's a compelling reason to do otherwise. Raymond Arritt (talk) 17:10, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

I also share this view. I have deleted a small handful of user talk pages under the right to vanish (more accurately under Ignore All Rules), and in each case the user had picked a username too close to their life, and due to experiences here or elsewhere they had come to regret it. I don't see the need to require extra bureaucracy and sworn 'testimony of real issues' sent to the Foundation Office from a verifiable email address. I would delete the pages again if I was asked again, using common sense and an amount of human decency (BLP?). As long as we remember that we are talking about pages which "contain a long record of community discussion", and this is no outright prohibition. Remember there has never been a CSD for user talk pages, and there is always Deletion Review for deletions which are out of process. -- zzuuzz 17:57, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

We have links to user talk pages and diffs on them all over, and it's extremely annoying when they stop working. Nothing should ever be deleted without a good reason. "I did something stupid that I want to hide" isn't a good reason. Zocky | picture popups 20:30, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

I am absolutely fine with them being deleted where there is a real life issue for someone. But I'm not fine with a general rule that we do it on demand. The danger here is that if admins do this lightly people will start contesting them on DRV - and since there is no basis in policy for the deletion, unless the admin details the reason, they'll get undeleted. Now, in those genuine privacy cases, the last thing the subject wants is a high profile DRV demanding reasons and lots of people snooping about. Sooooo pleeeeease only delete talk pages where you are pretty sure there's a bloody good reason - and use a useful deletion summary like "privacy concerns - e-mail me if you need details". That way we can keep the few genuine privacy deletions intact - but we can only do this if routine deletions stop now. The next deletion citing only "rtv" as a reason will be sent to DRV, since rtv DOES NOT ALLOW FOR the deletion of usertalk pages on demand (see the reasons above).--Doc 20:38, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

A salted user talk page?

User:BobTheTomato's user page and talk page are both currently salted through User:East718/NaCl. However, East718 appears to have left the project, while BobTheTomato is active. This doesn't seem quite kosher; can someone do something about it? Merging East718's personal salted-pages list into the main list at Misplaced Pages:Protected titles seems like the rational approach, but (1) I'm not an admin, so I can't do it myself, and (2) I figure this is an unusual enough situation as to merit bringing it up here. Zetawoof_(ζ) 02:26, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Unless someone can testify that these were necessary deletions of talk pages, I'm thinking of undeleting them. See the thread two above for the reasons. No reason has been given for deleting these talk pages at all. Now, if there's a pressing privacy reason - fine. I don't even have to know it. But can someone tell me that there is one.--Doc 03:03, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

BobTheTomato edits actively under a new account name, they're using this one only to participate in the ArbCom elections. The old account name was easily connectable to their real-world identity and location, and he/she had a stalker that was using information gleaned from Misplaced Pages against them. Please contact Dmcdevit or Secretlondon for more information. 68.193.198.41 (talk) 12:47, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

That's absolutely fine. But, if talk pages are deleted in such extraordinary circumstances can we please not use "rtv" as the deletion reason. As is shown above rtv, does NOT justify deletion of usertalk pages on request. Usertalk should only be deleted in exceptional circumstances - and I encourage admins deleting under such circumstances to use a deletion summary like "special circumstances - e-mail me if you need details". That way we don't give the impression of deletion on demand, but neither do we end up with someone sending the deletion to DRV in cases that there are exceptionally good reasons for deletion.--Doc 17:40, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

BobTheTomato had a former name under which he wa sbeing harassed, and changed names then registered a new account. Why do we need these back? Guy (Help!) 19:27, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

OK, I think I follow now. To clarify, my issue was primarily with the pages being protected against recreation - but, so long as they're just using the account for this election, I don't see so much of an issue with that.

However, my second point stands - given that East718 is no longer active, someone should probably take responsibility for the pages they've salted. Zetawoof_(ζ) 02:58, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm not dead, I'm just in hibernation. 68.193.198.41 (talk) 10:49, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Deletions - one way to help reduce stress

Hi, I'm sure many readers here will be aware that there is sometimes a certain amount of heat generated by deletions. I've just learnt that we have something like 1400 active admins. Might I ask that some of you consider adding yourselves to the 58 admins who will provide copies of deleted artices? These admins provide a valuable service, enabling users to rescue articles which have been deleted, but which, with work in userspace, can assume a form more fitting to the Misplaced Pages. This can help reduce the stress and argy-bargy which sometimes comes from deletions - and which takes up too much of so many people's time. Thanks for your time, DuncanHill (talk) 03:16, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

While there are around 1400 total admins, just under 1000 of them are "active", depending on how you count. — Carl (CBM · talk) 05:00, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

I was told 1400 active. But 4% ->5% ain't a huge difference. DuncanHill (talk) 05:05, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

The bot that updates Misplaced Pages:List_of_administrators gives one count of active admins: 982 today. (Also, 1400 and 1000 differ by 40 percent.) — Carl (CBM · talk) 05:23, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, obviously my fault for believing what another admin told me. Stupid of me I know, especially to then think anyone might be interested in helping out. DuncanHill (talk) 05:26, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Um what? I don't get it. Anyway, I added myself to the category. James086 05:34, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Sorry - I was mainly trying to give a link to where an answer could be found, not claiming nobody told you wrong, but I see my comment could be misread. I have been a member of the deleted articles category for some time. — Carl (CBM · talk) 05:49, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. And thanks James too, it's up to 60 out of 982 now, that's a whopping 6.1%! DuncanHill (talk) 05:52, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

61 :)--Kubigula (talk) 05:57, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Is this category generally seen as important? I've never regarded it as a big deal. Anyone can list an article through Deletion review#Temporary_review and, barring copyvio, BLP, or frequent recreation problems, it will usually be provided to the requester as soon as someone notices it. Chick Bowen 06:02, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

I think many users - especially new users - would find it much less intimidating to directly ask someone to help rather than trying to edit a bloody great page like Deletion review where the instructions are (as with so many similar pages) somewhat less than clear. The category helps editors find someone who has upfront stated a willingness to help, and this I believe, helps reduce tensions in the community. DuncanHill (talk) 06:12, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Indeed. looking at deletion review now there is a comment from an editor who says he "doesn't have time to understand all the complicated instructions". I can't provide a diff, as the page history doesn't seem to show them properly. Easiest way to see it is to click on the "edit" at the top of current discussions - because of the way the page is formatted, his comment doesn't appear where one would expect it to. DuncanHill (talk) 06:17, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Have managed to find the diff DuncanHill (talk) 06:40, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, the category itself states "Requests should be made at Misplaced Pages:Deletion_review#Temporary_review". So even if these people do put their names on the list, anyone who wants the history put on their user space needs to go through the DRV section. Metros (talk) 06:20, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

I doubt many new editors who have had articles speedied will want the history - just the article text to work on. Also, I think one can safely assume that admins in the category may be helpful to editors who, like myself, find the instructions and structure of the page at deletion review very user-unfriendly. I must say that I am disappointed, tho' not surprized, by the apparent negativity of some of the reactions here. All I am trying to do is suggest one possible way for admins to help stop deletions turning into battlegrounds. If you don't wish to be in the category - fine, there are many tasks for admins to do, and each admin will have their own priorities, skills and interests. But don't knock a resource just because it's not for you. DuncanHill (talk) 06:30, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Except just giving them the article text would violate the GFDL. We have to give them the full history. Metros (talk) 06:48, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

I've been given texts of speedied articles before (not my own creation either). DuncanHill (talk) 07:01, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Metros, why don't you just propose deletion of the category? Or is it because it's me asking for recruits that you are being so negative? DuncanHill (talk) 07:03, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Vandalism report

<Report removed to clear name from archives. Original report by John Nevard (talk) 07:05, 8 December 2007 (UTC)>

Image deleted, vandal warned. Please use WP:AIV for such reports in the future. Thank you, Kusma (talk) 07:11, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Just what you didn't need: another sockpuppet report from Durova

This time I'm sure I'm right. And I've posted all the evidence in user space. Please block them before they can do any damage. Durova 09:05, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Block 'em. Sock 'em. — Nearly Headless Nick {C} 09:10, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

• This is a conspiracy, damnit. There's no way you could have gotten the evidence to back that up without access to the secret mailing list! ;) —Dark•Shikari 09:10, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Awww. Cuuute, but you missed one :-) - Alison 09:39, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Do you have any evidence of "good hand/bad hand" behaviour? LessHeard vanU (talk) 10:27, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes. This one is a conspiracy theorist. Durova 16:54, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Object! We are all made of yarn, when it comes down to it, and so we are in no position to judge the arms, when we are all slip covers over the animating force. Geogre (talk) 13:41, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

We are all made of yarn? I thought we were ugly bags of mostly water!?! --Kralizec! (talk) 14:36, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

• Are they big enough to see from the black helicopter? *Dan T.* (talk) 14:26, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Good humor! — Rlevse • Talk • 14:41, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
  • I have uncovered the first sock... and thereby hangs a yarn! LessHeard vanU (talk) 17:59, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

(ec)Inserting a 1.4 MB inline image here seems more than bit excessive. Can you please scale it down or thumb it? --Kralizec! (talk) 18:04, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Um... could someone who actually knows how to reduce it - or just make a link - do it? LessHeard vanU (talk) 18:09, 8 December 2007 (UTC) Sorted... but how, I don't see any difference... er.... LessHeard vanU (talk) 18:15, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Typical admin attitude, though: when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a thumb. -- Kendrick7 18:18, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

No, when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a window. When all you have is a torque wrench, everything looks like a redwood tree. I do not mean to be pedantic, but it as easy to get these things right as it is to get them wrong. Raymond Arritt (talk) 18:29, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

I must say: your answer really hits the nail on the head. -- Kendrick7 19:11, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

• Endorse the ban of everyone involved in this thread. -- zzuuzz 18:04, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

• Fool! I endorse the ban of everyone in this thread other than me! -- Kendrick7 18:09, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

• I'm fairly convinced Socksnake is a Knee High. --Hu12 (talk) 18:15, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

All of those socks were coerced into confessing! Look at the backgrounds in the images! It's obvious that those socks were ripped off their respective feet, dragged into a dull room, interrogated, and then photographed. Look at the poor socksnake's eyes. They're red and glassy, obviously sleep deprived! I resent the fact that everybody feels socks are bad. Socks are our friends! If we had no socks, our toes would be cold. -- Gogo Dodo (talk) 19:05, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

What do they expect? Why I've heard there are special machines for waterboarding such suspects in nearly every American home. And some are never heard from again! -- Kendrick7 19:16, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Looks to me like you need to go and buy yourself some decent pairs of socks, Durova. I mean, green — really?! Splash - tk 20:49, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

I shop at a snail's pace. Durova 20:53, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Would red sox or white sox be better? *Dan T.* (talk) 20:59, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Neither, unless traded for Dodger blue. Durova 21:36, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Speaking for my self only, Red Sox are better then White Sox ;) Anyway.. I fully endorse Durova's investigation.. they're obviously puppets of the Sock Monster. SirFozzie (talk) 21:09, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

How many socks could sock block socks if a sock could block socks? I fear we'll be banned under WP:BADJOKES :D Ripberger (talk) 03:19, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Unprotect my pages

Hi there. Well, I'm back again. In future, when I decide to leave, I'll enter my breakmessage on my userpage. OK, please unprotect my talk page and leave my userpage protected only for normal users. Admins and I should be able to edit my userpage. D@rk 12:46, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Done. NoSeptember 13:02, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Assistance with moving a protected page

Synopsis:

• Buffy the Vampire Slayer (TV series) redirects to Buffy the Vampire Slayer.
• This goes against naming conventions at Misplaced Pages:Disambiguation#Primary_topic and Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (television). I have explained this in detail here (note: this is also the location of the post-protection debate).
• This state of affairs came about after a naming debate here which resolved to move the dab page to Buffy the Vampire Slayer (disambiguation) and thus in effect make the TV series the primary topic. However, the closing admin left a redirect rather than moving the TV series into the main slot/primary topic.
• The page is move protected.
• One vociferous editor (whose agenda is actually to move the dab page back to the main slot) got the page protected, and has refused to agree to my request to restore proper order per the naming conventions. This is despite my offer to immediately reopen discussion on the location of the dab page (less than 3 months after he lost out).
• Two other editors, both admins, have stated agreement with my position that the naming guidelines are clear and no valid reason has been presented to override them.

I'm trying to implement naming conventions here, and am more than happy to discuss disambiguation when that's done, but the editor involved won't budge and has got me neutered by having the page protected. Therefore I request some third party admin intervention; preferably moving Buffy the Vampire Slayer (TV series) to Buffy the Vampire Slayer. It might be wise to leave the page protected for now. If this is done, I will open debate on the dab issue and advertise it at WP:RM. --kingboyk (talk) 14:42, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

I would like it noted that the page with "TV series" is the way it was. The last page name debate was about moving it to just "Buffy", and there was "no consensus". King is saying that because "Buffy" redirects to "TV series", we should move the page to "Buffy" and then open a discussion to change the name to "TV series". I disagree on the grounds that the redirection of "Buffy" is irrelevant to the debate that initially lead the page to "TV series". The debate should be about moving "TV series" to just plain "Buffy" (as WP:NCTV says the page should be "TV series"), because the topic at hand is if the television show is the more well known usage (a subjective interpretation, that no one has yet to show evidence of). So, it follows naming conventions.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 14:49, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

That's exactly what I'm saying. It's also what I've been saying here. Please don't bring the debate here, it won't be appreciated. If any helpful admin wants to help out, they know where to go to read the debate and they know which guidelines to look at. Over and out. --kingboyk (talk) 14:54, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

"If this is done, I will open debate" Rather than demanding that the page be moved before you open a discussion, why not go ahead and open the discussion? There is clearly a disagreement here, with both of you thinking guideline/policy supports your position. - auburnpilot talk 21:46, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Virtualology and Stanley L. Klos -- boon to our historical articles or just a bain of spam?

This cluster of editors, articles and websites involves multiple issues and the material added to Misplaced Pages may (or may not) be useful. Various aspects have been discussed ad hoc at different times but never all in one place. I'm consolidating links to various discussions and editors here in one place for review and consideration as a whole.

Articles

• Evisum -- previously proposed for deletion; PROD tag removed
• Virtualology
• Stanley L. Klos
  • Over 400 articles are internally linked to this page. For those search engines (Yahoo?) that ignore our nofollow tags, that sort of internal mega-linking would give this article and anything externally linked to it near-Death Star powers in search engine rankings.

That's up from about 250 a week or so ago. Only a small percentage of the links are added as a side-effect of adding content to the topics; and of those a large percentage are low-quality information expressing divergent views from more well-known resources. Tedickey (talk) 18:46, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Related editors (but not necessarily sockpuppets)

• 71.42.169.190 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • blacklist hits • AbuseLog • what links to user page • COIBot • Spamcheck • count • block log • x-wiki • Edit filter search • WHOIS • RDNS • tracert • robtex.com • StopForumSpam • Google • AboutUs • Project HoneyPot)
• 66.93.248.72 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • blacklist hits • AbuseLog • what links to user page • COIBot • Spamcheck • count • block log • x-wiki • Edit filter search • WHOIS • RDNS • tracert • robtex.com • StopForumSpam • Google • AboutUs • Project HoneyPot)
• 24.73.72.214 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • blacklist hits • AbuseLog • what links to user page • COIBot • Spamcheck • count • block log • x-wiki • Edit filter search • WHOIS • RDNS • tracert • robtex.com • StopForumSpam • Google • AboutUs • Project HoneyPot)
• 97.97.197.9 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • blacklist hits • AbuseLog • what links to user page • COIBot • Spamcheck • count • block log • x-wiki • Edit filter search • WHOIS • RDNS • tracert • robtex.com • StopForumSpam • Google • AboutUs • Project HoneyPot)
• Cedarkey1 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · blacklist hits · AbuseLog · what links to user page · count · COIBot · Spamcheck · user page logs · x-wiki · status · Edit filter search · Google · StopForumSpam)
• Pputter (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · blacklist hits · AbuseLog · what links to user page · count · COIBot · Spamcheck · user page logs · x-wiki · status · Edit filter search · Google · StopForumSpam)
• Damslerset (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · blacklist hits · AbuseLog · what links to user page · count · COIBot · Spamcheck · user page logs · x-wiki · status · Edit filter search · Google · StopForumSpam)

Discussions

• Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Spam/2007 Archive Apr#www.famousamericans.net & related
• Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Spam/2007_Archive_Nov_1#famousamericans.net
• Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Spam#famousamericans.net, Act II - Scene 3 (permanent link)
• Misplaced Pages talk:Copyright problems#Virtualology (permanent link)
• Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Biography#Use of Appleton's and its derivative sites (permanent link)
• User talk:Damslerset

Domains added to Misplaced Pages

• Hundreds? Nobody knows exactly how many and Virtualology apparently own over 7500 domain names. See the 3 WikiProject Spam discussions for some that have been identified so far.

Also see

• Appleton's Cyclopedia of American Biography
• wikisource:Appleton's Cyclopedia of American Biography

--A. B. 18:23, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

• SPAM - They are added indiscriminately, often to Reference sections where they are not a source, or just to the wrong person, like Francis Barber today, who (slightly comically) had this link added today, at the top of the list, natch. Johnbod (talk) 18:49, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

In plain English

Tell me if I understand this right: some people have tried to revise a notoriously inaccurate reference source that's over 100 years old (the original contained over 200 fictitious biographies). The main individual involved in this effort has no academic or publishing credentials. Then this group of people have created countless domains to host parts of the "reference work" and cited Misplaced Pages articles that way, simultaneously sending hundreds of outgoing links to their domans and Wikilinks to the Misplaced Pages biography of one of this revised edition's principal editors? If that's an accurate summary, then the whole things fails WP:RS and is a massive case of spam. WMF ought to be notified, given the size of this problem. Durova 18:57, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, though rather than "tried to revise" I suspect "made sufficient changes to justify (they hope) slapping a copyright notice on" is more like it. Johnbod (talk) 20:23, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Smells like spam to me. I agree with Durova's suggestion. OhNoitsJamie 19:16, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

If A. B. posted this here to get general consent for a campaign against the entire set of external and internal links, I would support that. This could potentially lead to a combined AfD against all the Klos articles, and could be contentious, but well-justified by policy. Is there any wider review that should be done before such a step is taken? Does anyone see anything of value in the Klos-related material that ought to be preserved? EdJohnston (talk) 20:19, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Ed, I posted it here not so much to get consent as to engender discussion this stuff's value. Since these links show up in references, I don't want to go off on a tear deleting citations and links the community finds useful, even if I don't like the way this stuff got added. --A. B. 20:41, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't see how this could qualify under the standards Misplaced Pages normally applies. If the original source had been revised by an established publisher, using actual experts, then that might be a different matter. What we have here is self-published material and a staggering self-promotional campaign. The integrity of scores of important biographies may have been compromised. I want to be certain I understand this right before reaching a final conclusion, but if this really is a correct understanding then I'd not only endorse a combined AFD, I'd support a siteban and spam blacklisting along with a long term vandalism report. This behavior is a direct assault on Misplaced Pages's credibility: make absolutely certain you're on the mark first, then if everything checks out slash and burn. Durova 20:51, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

If the stuff is not a reliable source, dump it. regardless of the collateral damage. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 21:23, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Modifying that: perhaps these people will be receptive to official contact from WMF and take it down themselves. Durova 21:34, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

(unindent) (updated info here) The fact that these users edit to a point just short of being blocked & then reincarnate as a new user is a bit troubling. --Versageek 21:44, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Now that CheckUser has confirmed these 4 accounts as "related", can I ask an admin to block them as sockpuppets/meatpuppets:

• Cedarkey1 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · blacklist hits · AbuseLog · what links to user page · count · COIBot · Spamcheck · user page logs · x-wiki · status · Edit filter search · Google · StopForumSpam)
• Pputter (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · blacklist hits · AbuseLog · what links to user page · count · COIBot · Spamcheck · user page logs · x-wiki · status · Edit filter search · Google · StopForumSpam)
• Damslerset (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · blacklist hits · AbuseLog · what links to user page · count · COIBot · Spamcheck · user page logs · x-wiki · status · Edit filter search · Google · StopForumSpam)
• Solknats (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · blacklist hits · AbuseLog · what links to user page · count · COIBot · Spamcheck · user page logs · x-wiki · status · Edit filter search · Google · StopForumSpam)

Thanks, --A. B. 22:25, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

To help in investigating the many domains, I've set up a temporary user subpage listing the domains we know of. I'll be using the {{spamlink}} template links to try to figure out what other domains this person owns and may have spammed. --A. B. 22:48, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

I see Virtuality as an honest attempt to do a good project, but based upon an extremely naive understanding of history and scholarship. I think he really does want to revise it--but he unfortunately picked something that should instead be replaced, as being fundamentally too weak for improvement. It hasn't helped that he has an idiosyncratic view of the relationship of the government under the Articles of Confederation with that under the Constitution, but I think has wider goals, which are not dishonourable. Just that he hasnt achieved them, and is not likely to--and the present state of the project is in fact dangerous. The proper use of Appleton's for WP is only as a suggestion of names upon which people might write proper WP articles. The best immediate thing is to remove the internal links as misleading and the external ones as unreliable. The sockpuppetry is simply someone continuing on a hobbyhorse, and willing to disregard our rules to do so--and of course must be blocked, to prevent further damage. DGG (talk) 22:52, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

the articles supported by cites from any version of appleton must be reviewed, not deleted altogether, as they can generally be edited to what can be documented elsewhere. Most of them can be expanded greatly if proper sources are used--appleton is not only incorrect but incomplete. If the appleton-based edits are recent, then it will be enough to revert them. This probably needs to be a formal or informal project. 22:58, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

DGG, thanks for your comments -- you've studied this site more closely than anyone else.

Here's another sockpuppet (based on edits, not checkuser):

• Natsnew (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · blacklist hits · AbuseLog · what links to user page · count · COIBot · Spamcheck · user page logs · x-wiki · status · Edit filter search · Google · StopForumSpam)

Can some admin block it? Thanks.

Also, it looks like this has been spammed crosswiki:

• wikisource:en:Special:Contributions/97.97.197.9
• es:Special:Contributions/97.97.197.9
• fr:Special:Contributions/97.97.197.9
• it:Special:Contributions/97.97.197.9
• pt:Special:Contributions/97.97.197.9

Articles:

• es:Stanley L. Klos
• it:Stanley L. Klos

--A. B. 23:24, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Yikes! 1173 famousamericans.net links on this Misplaced Pages plus 200 to 250 more on other projects:

• de:Special:Linksearch/*.famousamericans.net
• fr:Special:Linksearch/*.famousamericans.net
• pl:Special:Linksearch/*.famousamericans.net
• ja:Special:Linksearch/*.famousamericans.net
• it:Special:Linksearch/*.famousamericans.net
• pt:Special:Linksearch/*.famousamericans.net
• sv:Special:Linksearch/*.famousamericans.net
• es:Special:Linksearch/*.famousamericans.net
• ru:Special:Linksearch/*.famousamericans.net
• zh:Special:Linksearch/*.famousamericans.net
• fi:Special:Linksearch/*.famousamericans.net
• no:Special:Linksearch/*.famousamericans.net
• sk:Special:Linksearch/*.famousamericans.net
• cs:Special:Linksearch/*.famousamericans.net
• tr:Special:Linksearch/*.famousamericans.net
• da:Special:Linksearch/*.famousamericans.net
• ro:Special:Linksearch/*.famousamericans.net
• ca:Special:Linksearch/*.famousamericans.net
• hu:Special:Linksearch/*.famousamericans.net
• he:Special:Linksearch/*.famousamericans.net
• id:Special:Linksearch/*.famousamericans.net
• sl:Special:Linksearch/*.famousamericans.net
• ko:Special:Linksearch/*.famousamericans.net
• hr:Special:Linksearch/*.famousamericans.net
• nn:Special:Linksearch/*.famousamericans.net
• el:Special:Linksearch/*.famousamericans.net
• vi:Special:Linksearch/*.famousamericans.net
• bs:Special:Linksearch/*.famousamericans.net
• simple:Special:Linksearch/*.famousamericans.net
• lb:Special:Linksearch/*.famousamericans.net
• la:Special:Linksearch/*.famousamericans.net

Here's another IP that was heavily used:

• 24.94.139.230 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • blacklist hits • AbuseLog • what links to user page • COIBot • Spamcheck • count • block log • x-wiki • Edit filter search • WHOIS • RDNS • tracert • robtex.com • StopForumSpam • Google • AboutUs • Project HoneyPot)

We've identified another about another 275 related domains, most of them for individual historical figures (abraham-lincoln.org, aaronburr.net, etc.). Based on a small sample, I'd say there are another 200 to 500 links to the domains on that list. --A. B. 00:25, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Apparently an admin previously okayed the addition of these links. See these March 2007 discussions:

• User talk:MichaelBillington/Archive5#Appleton links
• Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject_U.S. Presidents#External links

--A. B. 00:34, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Not to mention there's banner ads and adsense too (pub-6719872942509405). It's spam. Can we start removing the links now? MER-C 01:35, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Good heavens banner ad/adsense issues too? By all means start deleting. That's my call anyway. Thank you so much for your diligence. Durova 01:42, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

To be honest, Durova, I'm not sure banner ads and Google Adsense make a site inappropriate. You'll get ads on Globe and Mail and New York Times pages and you'll find Adsense ads at the bottom of Daily Telegraph articles. Legitimate content providers have to pay bills, too. --A. B. 02:25, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

They don't make a site inappropriate in itself, I agree. If the site is already inappropriate as a reference, and if the same people are spamming it onto Misplaced Pages as if it were a reliable source, then what that amounts to is an attempt to skim profit off Misplaced Pages's massive traffic. That's a bit more predatory than ordinary spam, which (we hope) at least offers solid informational value and doesn't earn a direct profit from click-throughs. Bear in mind that New York Times citations aren't spam: it's a newspaper of record that thousands of people add to this site's pages as a reference. The danger of going to soft on pseudoreferencing is that we'd get overrun with junk. This isn't a small campaign of a dozen links; it's well developed and perpetuated through sockpuppetry. Yes, I do take a dim view. Durova 03:02, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Next steps

Here's what I think needs to happen:

1. We should give this another day to let other chime in on the value of these links; from the WikiProject U.S. Presidents discussion at least one regular editor has expressed support for these links in the past.
2. An admin should block the accounts I've listed above. Even if some of these links turn out to be useful, they've been added by sock/meatpuppets uncontrollably and in spite of requests to stop
3. If there remains a strong consensus that all this stuff is junk, then I propose we start removing links here and on other Wikimedia projects.
4. Once the links are removed, I propose we blacklist these domains at meta:Talk:Spam blacklist. Again, that assumes consensus here.
5. Articles:
   1. Evisum -- not notable; take to AfD
   2. Virtualology -- probably not notable; take to AfD for community discussion
   3. Stanley L. Klos -- notable. Article needs rewrite, however.

I estimate this cleanup may take 10 to 20 editor-hours.

Others thoughts? --A. B. 01:25, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

• I'd agree with that, but it doesn't cover DGG's point above: "the articles supported by cites from any version of appleton must be reviewed, not deleted altogether, as they can generally be edited to what can be documented elsewhere..." bearing in mind that many of these links seem to have been added as "references" (when there was no external links section) when they were not actually used to source the article. That could take a long time to cover. Johnbod (talk) 03:06, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

I wouldn't expect to delete any historical articles. There are 100s of spam edits involved but none that I've sampled seem to be essential to any history articles' survival. I'm very much a historical inclusionist anyway; failure of an 18th century political figure to have his own web site doesn't mean there aren't a lot of references in the library. --A. B. 03:24, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

• Pputter has put a sort of explanation/justification for what he is up to at User talk:Pputter. I haven't examined the detail. Johnbod (talk) 15:13, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

• I ran into User:Damslerset inserting links to a Klos book and website that assert that George Washington is really the 10th or 11th president of the United States. Damslerset was adding the link to every article on anything named for John Hancock (one of the earlier Presidents) s/he could find, so you might want to do a Google search for "Stanley L. Klos" just within Misplaced Pages to look for other links we've missed so far. I think I reverted all of Damsleret's edits at the time, but will double check tonight. I support blacklisting this site. Ruhrfisch _><>° 00:19, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
• PS Just ran "Stanley L Klos" site:en.wikipedia.org on Google and found about 430 hits, Ruhrfisch _><>° 00:22, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

/me dusts off some old tools:

Total count: 1371 en: 1112 de: 125 ja: 29 fr: 32 pl: 7 it: 8 es: 32 pt: 17 zh: 3 fi: 2 no: 3 he: 1 Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Spam/CrossWiki

those are current numbers of links to famousamericans.net. Im removing those on en now. β 00:21, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Would it be worth taking this to Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Biography? They could set it up as a cleanup drive to review articles that cite Appleton's and/or Virtualology. Clearly a personal site containing personal edits to material sourced from an unreliable encyclopedia is not a RS, so there are good grounds for going through them systematically and checking them off - rather than simply deleting the links, which would leave articles with no indication of potential unreliability. Gordonofcartoon (talk) 02:14, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

That's a good idea, Gordon.

In the meantime, I've started on cleaning up the 275 or so other domains besides famousamericans.net listed at User:A. B./Sandbox6. So far, most of the citations I've removed have been to Stanley L. Klos' self-published book and hyping his somewhat original researchish view that America had a number of other Presidents besides those that Started with George Washington. Technically this is true, but these Presidents of things like the Continental Congress were essentially chairmen, not major executive figures. I've felt little guilt in deleting them and the statements they've "supported". The more I look at this stuff, the less impressed I am. --A. B. 02:37, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I've rolled back the ones I could (about -150 links). Let me know when the spam count on de and en have dropped to ~100 or so so I can run a spamsearch to check other projects and small wikis. MER-C 03:00, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

es:Special:Contributions/97.97.197.9 is causing some damage again at es, by continuing the spam and recreating the article in the talk space.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 03:30, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

No need to block any users or worry about deleting the links. Virtualology existed before Misplaced Pages and will continue with you blocking your users from referencing the site's online content. Just make sure you get all of them out and be sure to post a notice somewhere that you are banning the citation of all the Virtualology sites, a page on Virtualology, a page on Evisum and a page on Stanley L. Klos the founder.

We tried to clean-up the mess fairly and honestly with proper citations to our sites adding to your body of knowledge and by the way all these "death star links" links have netted the company a whopping $200 a month in Ad revenue and no Books sold as they sold out a year ago. We tried to follow an administrator's guidlines asking for help through several volunteer editors.

Additionally, Mr. Klos has reviewed this page, and although in complete disagreement with your historical assessment that 10 Presidents of the United States did NOT serve before George Washington he throws in the towel. He does suggest the next time you visit the the National Archives be sure to take notice of the Treaty of Paris that ended the War with Great Britain signed, Thomas Mifflin, President of the United States in 1784 which starts off their exhibit ( here is a direct link - http://images.virtualology.com/images/5068.jpg)or just go to the Journals of the Continental Congress online and search President of the United States and write off those hundreds of historical treaties, documents, letters and Proclamations signed President of the United States too! After all, freedom of speech was guarenteed under the Constitution of 1787 not the Constitution of 1777 (which created the Perpetual Union and these ten Presidents) in the "Bill of Rights" It is most appropriate you silence what the Lady from NJ calls, unimpressive work, which by the way is about to launch a new Presidential Musuem in Norwich Ct. honoring thezs forgotten Presidents from Misplaced Pages.

By the way A.B., did you know your State is the home of one of these President's of the United States who was held hostage along with the entire government of the United States in 1783 by its own military. The president called out the Pennsylvania Militia to free them but they refused to show. Another future President negotiated their release from Independence Hall and they fled to Nassau Hall in Princeton NJ never to return again. All the letters and documents reguarding this incident, including the order staying the execution of the mutineers, were signed President of the United State -- see EliasBoudinot.com But there were no Presidents of the United States before George Washington and Lincoln never used the Constitution of 1777 as the crux of his case on July 4, 1861 to wage war as the southern States broke the Perpetual Union ratified under the Articles of Confederation.

As for you burning the links, Mr. Klos has asked the volunteers to stop cleaning up the references to the sites (as explained on my user page)or adding any more improvements to wiki sites despite our protests and honest attempt to work with your team to insure both sides of the question be explored and biographies properly cited, Heil Wiki! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pputter (talk • contribs) 04:40, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

My "state", eh??

--A. B. 04:47, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Mr. Klos wants to know if Misplaced Pages would like a complete list of all the domains in the virtualology Project so you may completely blacklist all the company sites from your encyclopedia? One in particular whose content is copied but that is not cited is the online Edited Version of Peter Force's American Archives. Please advise as he seeks only too cooperate with this remarkable educational endeavor even if it means being "black listed" for your hundreds of users citing his content over the last several years. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pputter (talk • contribs) 05:54, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

As one Florida Company and Resident to another Florida Company and resident Mr. Klos asked me to provide you with this first installment which is primarily historical.

andywarhol.org, aaronburr.net, abigailadams.net, abraham-lincoln.org, abrahamclark.com, airforce1.org, alexander-hamilton.org, alexandergrahambell.org, alexanderhamilton.org, alphonsecapone.com, americanarchives.net, andrewcarnegie.net, andrewjackson.net, andrewjackson.org, andrewjohnson.org, andrewmellon.org, anthonywayne.org, arthurmiddleton.com, arthurstclair.com, arthurstclair.org, articlesofconfederation.com, articlesofconfederation.org, babe-ruth.info, battleofantietam.org, battleofprinceton.com, battleofyorktown.com, benedictarnold.org, benjaminfranklin.org, benjaminharrison.org, benjaminrush.com, betsyross.org, bookertwashington.org, buttongwinnett.com, cabinetroom.com, caesarrodney.net, calvincoolidge.org, carterbraxton.net, catherinethegreat.org, charlescarroll.net, charleslindbergh.org, charlesthomson.com, chesterarthur.com, civilrightsmovement.com, clarabarton.org, clementcmoore.com, constitutionalconvention.net, csaconstitution.com, cyrusgriffin.com, danielboone.org, danielwebster.org, declarationofindependence.info, demosthenes.com, dolleymadison.org, dwighteisenhower.org, edmundrandolph.org, edwardrutledge.com, egyptianmummy.com, eisenhowerdollar.com, elbridgegerry.com, eleanorroosevelt.org, eliasboudinot.com, elizabethcadystanton.info, elizabethi.com, elizabethmonroe.org, emancipationproclamation.org, equalrightsamendment.net, ernesthemingway.org, fallofsaigon.com, famousamericans.net, federalistpapers.org, federaltaxreturn.com, ferdinandmagellan.com, fortduquesne.com, forthenry.net, fortnecessity.org, fortpitt.org, francislewis.com, francislightfootlee.com, francisscottkey.org, franklindroosevelt.org, franklinpierce.org, franklinroosevelt.org, frederick-douglass.info, frederickremington.com, frenchandindianwar.net, gaiusjuliuscaesar.com, galleryoffame.com, george-washington.org, georgeacuster.com, georgearmstrongcuster.com, georgeclymer.com, georgemarshall.org, georgemason.net, georgepatton.net, georgeread.org, georgeross.net, georgetaylor.net, georgewalton.com, georgewashingtoncarver.org, georgewythe.net, geraldrford.org, gettysburgaddress.org, gottliebdaimler.com, grovercleveland.org, harrietbeecherstowe.info, harrytruman.org, haymsalomon.org, henryclay.net, henryclayfrick.org, henryhudson.org, henrylaurens.com, henrymiddleton.com, herberthoover.org, himalayamountains.com, honuswagner.info, honuswagner.org, isocrates.com, jamesagarfield.com, jamesbuchanan.org, jamesecarter.net, jamesfenimorecooper.com, jamesgarfield.org, jameskpolk.org, jamesmadison.info, jamesmonroe.net, jameswilson.org, jeffersondavis.net, john-adams.org, john-marshall.org, johnadams.info, johnaudubon.com, johndrockefeller.org, johnfkennedy.org, johnhancock.org, johnhanson.net, johnhart.net, johnjay.net, johnmorton.net, johnpauljones.net, johnpenn.com, johnqadams.org, johnquincyadams.info, johntyler.org, johnwitherspoon.com, josephhewes.com, josephpulitzer.com, josephstalin.org, josephwarren.com, josiahbartlett.com, juliawardhowe.com, jumonvilleglen.com, karlbenz.com, kinggeorgeiii.com, lewismorris.com, louisiana-purchase.org, ludwigvanbeethoven.org, lyndonjohnson.org, manhattenproject.com, marquisdelafayette.net, marthawashington.org, martinlutherkingjr.info, martinvanburen.org, mayflowercompact.org, meriwetherlewis.org, millardfillmore.org, millennium911.com, monroedoctrine.net, museumofnaturalhistory.org, napoleonbonaparte.net, napoleonbonaparte.org, nathanielgorham.com, northwestordinance.org, notaxationwithoutrepresentation.com, oliverwolcott.com, peterstuyvesant.org, peytonrandolph.com, philiplivingston.com, pierrerenoir.com, plymouthrock.org, popepiusx.com, presidentiallibrary.org, rebelswithavision.com, richardhenrylee.org, richardnixon.org, richardstockton.net, robert-morris.com, robertelee.net, robertelee.org, robertfkennedy.org, robertfulton.org, robertlivingston.net, roberttreatpaine.com, rogersherman.net, rooseveltdime.com, rutherfordbhayes.org, rutherfordhayes.com, samueladams.net, samueladams.org, samuelclemens.org, samueldechamplain.com, samuelhuntington.org, sirwinstonchurchill.org, sittingbull.org, sojournertruth.com, stegosauria.com, stephenhopkins.com, stjoanofarc.info, susanbanthony.net, teddyroosevelt.net, thedeclarationofindependence.org, thelibertybell.org, theodoreroosevelt.net, thomas-jefferson.org, thomasaedison.org, thomasalvaedison.org, thomasheywardjr.com, thomaslynchjr.com, thomasmckean.com, thomasmifflin.com, thomaspaine.info, thomasstone.com, treatyofparis.com, treatyofparis.org, treatyofversailles.com, tyrannosaurusrex.org, ulyssessgrant.net, ulyssessgrant.org, undergroundraiload.com, unitednationscharter.com, unitedstatesconstitution.info, usbillofrights.com, usconstitution.info, uspresidency.com, vietnamwar.org, virginiaarchives.org, virginiadeclarationofrights.com, virginiadeclarationofrights.org, vladimirlenin.com, walteredisney.com, warmuseum.net, warof1812.net, warrengharding.org, williamclark.org, williamellery.com, williamfloyd.net, williamhenryharrison.org, williamhooper.org, williamhowardtaft.org, williamhtaft.org, williammckinley.net, williammckinley.org, williampaca.com, williampenn.org, williamtaft.org, williamwhipple.com, williamwilliams.com, wolfgangmozart.com, womansuffrage.com, woodrowwilson.net, worldwari.org, worldwarii.org, zacharytaylor.org, —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pputter (talk • contribs) 06:02, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Here are my posts as discussed above

1. There are hundreds upon hundreds of citing of FamousAmericans.net and its subsidaries incorrectly over the years on Wikipeida by various authors. These need to be corrected to Appleton's Cyclopedia of American Biography, edited by James Grant Wilson, John Fiske and Stanley L. Klos Six volumes, New York: D. Appleton and Company, 1887-1889 here are just a few examples at famousamericans.net:

William Tilghman Relevance: 77.5% - 2 KB (194 words) - 22:48, 19 November 2007 Lucius Quintus Cincinnatus Lamar (I)

• http://www.famousamericans.net/luciusquintuscincinnatuslamar/

Relevance: 77.5% - 2 KB (223 words) - 06:24, 20 November 2007 Thomas Dale

• http://www.famousamericans.net/sirthomasdale/

Relevance: 77.5% - 8 KB (1150 words) - 10:53, 20 November 2007 James Gambier, 1st Baron Gambier

• http://www.famousamericans.net/jamesgambier/

Relevance: 77.5% - 6 KB (829 words) - 17:05, 20 November 2007 Charles Manly Relevance: 77.5% - 3 KB (332 words) - 23:18, 20 November 2007 Civil War token ... the spot.". Virtual American Biographies at www.famousamericans.net. Retrieved June 23, 2006. The quote found its w... Relevance: 77.5% - 9 KB (1325 words) - 11:44, 22 November 2007 George Baylor Relevance: 77.5% - 3 KB (473 words) - 03:25, 23 November 2007 Maria Zakrzewska Relevance: 77.5% - 2 KB (302 words) - 16:36, 23 November 2007 Edmund Zalinski Relevance: 77.5% - 3 KB (418 words) - 20:40, 23 November 2007 Samuel Morris (Philadelphia, II) Relevance: 77.5% - 2 KB (300 words) - 23:01, 24 November 2007 Samuel Morris (Philadelphia, I) Relevance: 77.5% - 1 KB (201 words) - 23:02, 24 November 2007 John Morin Scott Relevance: 77.5% - 4 KB (611 words) - 17:40, 25 November 2007 Roger Morris (British Army officer) ..., 1760 ending French rule in North America.http://famousamericans.net/rogermorris/ Relevance: 77.5% - 3 KB (388 words) - 10:42, 26 November 2007 Thomas Penn Relevance: 77.5% - 7 KB (1030 words) - 11:23, 26 November 2007 James Hall (paleontologist) |url=http://www.famousamericans.net/jameshall1/ Relevance: 77.5% - 7 KB (1006 words) - 15:31, 26 November 2007 John Curtiss Underwood Relevance: 77.5% - 3 KB (419 words) - 01:40, 27 November 2007 Mary Clark Thompson

• http://www.famousamericans.net/myronholleyclark/

Relevance: 77.5% - 3 KB (463 words) - 21:28, 27 November 2007 John Trumbull Relevance: 77.5% - 9 KB (1302 words) - 21:17, 27 November 2007 Noël Brûlart de Sillery

• Article, FamousAmericans.net

Relevance: 77.5% - 2 KB (352 words) - 10:07, 28 November 2007 Westerlo, New York ...is named after Rev. Eilardus Westerlo (http://www.famousamericans.net/eilarduswesterlo/). Relevance: 77.5% - 6 KB (772 words) - 05:55, 30 November 2007

OR Like this - http://www.virtualology.com/virtualmuseumofhistory/hallofwomen/MARIANANDERSON on Marian Anderson - Misplaced Pages, the 💕 -

or like this

http://virtualology.com/apbaronstow/ on http://en.wikipedia.org/Baron_Stow

These references need to be be cited properly

2. There is use of sentences and paragraphs directly from Famous Americans.net and other Virtualology sites that are NOT cited with a "reference note" nor are there any references whatsoever to Appleton's or Virtualology so here we add it as a reference as a direct numerical citation unless the Article has no "footnoted" citations and only general references. Then I just add it to the list on references.

3. In terms how the reference is listed, if there is a "footnote" it shows in the order as it appears. If there is no "footnote: then it is listed alphabetically.

4. As for putting the wrong person in the reference, I will be sure to double check the names in the future.

Now I realize you and the other Wikipedians are doing a fabulous job on monitoring this thr project. Please advise how we may mutually correct this to everyone's satisfaction as it needs to be corrected. Thank you

Then, again - I'm curious what your figures for "relevance" are here:

• virtuology
• - wikipedia

Tedickey (talk) 18:34, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

It was an error at http://www.famousamericans.net/johnbanister/ which was the father in the first paragraph and the son in the 2nd who is the suject of the Wiki page. Agreed the Article should have been improved and properly linked -- Like I said we will double check in the future. The reference however added to the reads information not only on the subject but his father of the same name.

Oh Yes as far as academic references you slighted above, well Mr. Klos' are meager but here they are:

BA - American Studies, MA – Communications and Ph.D. in Communications & Marketing at St. Peter's College, Idaho State University and The Pennsylvania State University respectively . MBA Adjunct Professor and Lecturer - MBA BUSINESS AND THE MEDIA, MBA EXECUTIVE LEADERSHIP AND MBA ENTERPRENEURSHIP - Wheeling Jesuit University, WV; MARKETING & FINANCE, Georgian Court College, New Jersey; COMMUNICATIONS, The Pennsylvania State University; BUSINESS AND PROFESIONAL SPEAKING, Idaho State University. Director of Communications NASA's Classroom of the Future 1999 to 2004, West Virginia Independent College Board of Directors; Wheeling Jesuit University MBA Board of Directors & James Monroe Foundation National Advisory Board.

For the record I think what you are doing to this internet education pioneer is unjust. You should be helping him get the proper credit for the citing of his 8 years of internet education work and not blacklisting him. Mr. Klos, however, prefers peace over contention and asked me to handle this due to a personal challenges that have reset the bar on child custody law in Pennsylvania.

I am sorry Deb, myself and Donna didn't correct the links properly. We are merely volunteers, not paid who were just trying to clean-up the Virtuaology citings and give Mr. Klos proper credit for his work. We apologize for creating a death star (still not sure what that is) and will aide you in anyway to correct it. We do not have any way to help you with the hundreds of people who cited his work over the years, sorry. All he asks that if it is used on your site to please cite it properly or remove it.

Let me know if you want the other domains names. Keep up the good work, we use your site all the time especially with the kids homework. Pat PS - In May someone in your group told Donna to follow the find a grave system in citing and that is how all this started. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pputter (talk • contribs) 06:45, 10 December 2007 (UTC) --Pputter (talk) 12:06, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

My concern is that this action wasn't put in front of MilHist or Bio projects for lengthy discussion. We could have created an efficient process. I have no doubt that removing spam is essential. I have no dispute with requiring a link directly to Appletons as opposed to the FamousAmericans.net site. Perhaps a few bad editors were making these links a career. But I was using FA.net as reference long before I was using en.wikipedia.org. I have some loyalties to what Mr. Klos (with whose name I was unfamiliar until this morning) has been doing for years. I just wish this self-described "death star" behavior had been preceded by a posted notice of intent and this discussion allowing the page editors to create their own solution affirmatively. BusterD (talk) 14:46, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

It was our fault as voluntary editors to Virtualology since 2001 we saw the hundreds of links all throughout Misplaced Pages of famousamericans.net and they were listed incorrectly as references and external links. We started trying to seek them out but Donna got the idea to just go through the Appleton's content starting with the A's and add as external links where missing, change were they existed and add missing Famous Americans creating “stubs?” why Deb concentrated on the content taken from Mr. Klos’ book which sold out a while ago and he just decided to put it online - http://stanklos.com/chapter1/.

We got some conflicting advice early on from wiki monitors. First we were told no external links but use it as references. Then we were told we had to cite the actual reference sentence. Then we were told to add content and cite. Then we were told to not add original content but rewrite. Since the task was so daunting - 25,000 edited biographies we had other people help and the above was all mixed up as it came to different voluntary editors from different edits. You have to have this discussion somewhere, no? We do not have the coordination system you have.

Mr. Klos just wanted to make his sources available to Wiki users and we wanted them cited properly.

We are sorry for not following the protocol although we did list the revised Appleton's (many fictitious biographies were eliminated and others expanded by the way) as we get at least one or two emails like these below a day:

On John Penns Birth Date You Said he was born on Mary 17, 1741 is it supposed to be May?

Or

James G. Blaine was a Senator from Maine, not Massachusetts.

For years, as there are errors in this historic text and we research it and make corrections and admit we have a backlog of about 100 .

We did do, however, a source on the page directed to us by one of your administrators.

Finally, it is important to note that the bulk of the citations (which were all over the board due to urls that are so dynamic ie -- benjaminfranklin.org/susanbanthony.net/vietnamwar.org or alexanderhamilton.org/johfkennedy.org/vietnamwar.org all got to vietnamwar.org and the combinations are limitless so wiki users references were all over the board with our references.

It was an honest attempt to share information of the 25,000 biographies to Start, do proper references to what was already in your system for years and get some recognition for the Forgotten US Presidents which is Mr. Klos’ passion. We are sincerely sorry we made such a mess of this and caused all these very busy people so much trouble. Once again will cooperate in any cleanup efforts but ask that future use of the sites as references by your many wiki users be done properly. --Pputter (talk) 16:04, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Deleted page view request

An administrator has agreed to review the draft citation for accuracy. Durova 22:06, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

For about six weeks now I've been in contact with a Harvard student who's writing a thesis on Misplaced Pages. With the deadline at hand she needs to double check her citations, but one of the pages she was referencing has recently been deleted. Would someone oblige with a temporary undelete for this academic purpose? Please contact me for details. Durova 19:33, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Which page is it? Titoxd 19:35, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Daniel Brandt's biography. Used to be a redirect, now it's salted. She just needs it for a couple of hours. Durova 19:39, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

I assume it's the same request that Doc Glasgow recently turned down. That user says he's doing research into Misplaced Pages and that he's an undergraduate at Harvard. SlimVirgin 19:41, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

This is a tough one for me, if it was just about any other page, I wouldn't worry too much about it, but this page being undeleted for even a short period of time could have serious consequences. Ryan Postlethwaite 19:44, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Could you provide material privately to her? She's authorized me to give out her e-mail to an administrator. It's an @harvard.edu and I've been working with her for long enough that I'm confident this is genuine. Durova 19:49, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Thinking about this, she really just needs to verify that the citation is correct. So perhaps you could confer with her without actually disclosing more than a few quoted words or something like that. Durova 19:50, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Why does he need the page to be undeleted exactly? The request didn't make much sense. He says he wants to see one particular diff, but if he already knows what the diff says, why does he need the undeletion? SlimVirgin 19:52, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Also, bear in mind that this is (reportedly) for an undergraduate essay, not an academic paper, so there is no pressing academic issue here. I would urge caution unless the requester explains the request in a way that makes more sense, and also provided the material is not in any way controversial. SlimVirgin 19:54, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

(ec) Measure twice, cut once. It's a Harvard thesis not a book report. -- Kendrick7 19:55, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

It's standard practice at this level to double check all citations before turning in the final draft. Just making sure everything is correct. Durova 20:00, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Standard practice at which level? This is an undergraduate essay. And which citation needs to be checked exactly? If it's a citation that was in the article, he can get that by looking elsewhere for it, or just asking one of us what it was. That doesn't require undeletion. As I said, on the face of it, the request makes little sense. SlimVirgin 20:02, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Slim, it's a Harvard thesis. I spent a summer at Harvard; I know what their expectations are. People have gotten expelled from that university for honestly forgetting to include citations. They don't mess around. And it's not about a citation that was in the article. A diff of the article itself is being cited for analytical study of site dynamics. Durova 20:09, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Durova, undergraduate work is pretty much the same the world over. If the student wants to use a diff as a citation, it will be useless because the article is deleted. The diff is not available any more. Even if undeleted then deleted again, the link still won't go anywhere. So the request as stated makes no sense. SlimVirgin 20:29, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

(ec) I think others have been right with their firmness on the policy issue. Deleted is in fact, deleted, and you might help by explaining this to the student. As to what she needs, be it for college or high school, Harvard, or East Podunk, that makes no difference to us. It would be a kindness if you could help her understand the citation difficulties. Perhaps you could suggest sources other than Misplaced Pages? Jd2718 (talk) 20:19, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

It's not really deleted like Fahrenheit 451 deleted. It's really more like it is in a private collection; so no harm in asking for access to the resource. Even most of Harvard's libraries aren't open to the general public. -- Kendrick7 20:23, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

I really think someone should contact this user and clarify things. But be careful, the last admin to post deleted edits to someone got desysopped as I recall. Further, this is information about an identifiable individual who disputes the accuracy of it, and believes it to be a privacy violation. Posting it to someone is very likely to upset him. Now, unless we're going in for the "stuff Brandt we hate him anyway" video-game nonsense - that should give at least pause for thought. Does this student really need this? Why? How is deleted, and thus independently unverifiable material of any academic value - I'd take some convincing.--Doc 20:12, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Speaking as an academic here, I can't imagine any need to cite the actual language of the article. All the student needs to do is indicate in the citation that the page was deleted. Chick Bowen 20:16, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

It's simple enough for the student to provide the citation and just let someone say yes or no. I suspect we can work this out. -JodyB _talk 20:21, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

(de-indent+e/c) I didn't think Harvard allowed people to cite Misplaced Pages. But if the person wants to cite the source we cited, surely it's not a major problem for us to find the cite and send it to them?

If it is something in the article that they want then I would tend to refer them on to OTRS. I know that after Everyking, there is a chilling effect against admins providing deleted information. Stifle (talk) 20:22, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

When the subject of the paper is Misplaced Pages itself, of course Harvard allows students to cite us. Durova 20:31, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

OTRS have no more authority here than anyone else. If I were taking the OTRS call, I'd decline it.--Doc 20:23, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

She told me it's not life or death, so let's not ruffle our feathers too much. I doubt she needed the entire page or even the entire diff. Probably just wanted to check the url and a couple of words of text. If anyone's willing to do that much, I'll be back in an hour and can put you in touch. Otherwise let's let it go. Thanks for the responses. Durova 20:28, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Comment: there's a difference between a request from a college undergraduate and a college professor. If this is truly important and moves forward, maybe the student needs to have his/her professor make the request.

Also, isn't it early in the year to be actually writing up a senior thesis? I thought students did the actual writing in the last frantic month or two of their last semester. --A. B. 20:49, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

FYI, Harvard's fall semester ends 23 January. -- Kendrick7 21:35, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Oh for Christ's sake. A student requests a copy of something, certainly possible and reasonable with Special:Undelete, and it this conversation turns to whether or not Misplaced Pages is cite-able and whether the "really" needs the information and whether its too early to be writing this paper during the school year. The student simply wants to make sure that the information in his / her paper is correct. Provide the damn thing or don't; put the wiki-politics and speculation in the trash where they belong. There's simply no need for over 1000 words about the issue. --MZMcBride (talk) 20:57, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

To respond to a couple of posts, actually she's putting the final touches on it this weekend. That's her deadline. I floated the possibility of whether she could provide further bona fides for this request. She wasn't sure on the spur of the moment how she would do that and she had to head off to the library. The idea of her providing the draft citation to an administrator for factual confirmation seems reasonable. Anyone up for that? Durova 21:18, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

That seems perfectly fine, and I'd be happy to verify the student's citation for her. Natalie (talk) 21:59, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

In response to MZMcBride--the drama in this case has to do with the history of this particular article, and is not surprising. Obviously if it were almost any other it would be an open-and-shut case. Chick Bowen 22:34, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

FWIW I respect the concerns here and would not have submitted the request unless I were very confident it's legitimate. Durova 23:26, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I'm sure, but you have occasionally been known to be wrong.--Doc 03:22, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Nods, mea culpa for that. That's why I asked her about bona fides. Anyway, two administrators are working on it now. Thanks for the responses. :) Durova 03:51, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

An update, if anyone cares: I've been in contact with the student, and they apparently want to use a copy of the article to provide context for the deletion debates, which they are using as a case study. I think the student is certainly real - they are using a Harvard email address and about five seconds on Google brought up a few pages about them. I've actually suggest they contact Daniel Brandt personally, and then the two of them can work things out themselves. Natalie (talk) 04:47, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, now I've become aware of that also. That's very different from what I understood earlier. Durova 06:48, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Er, has she tried www.archive.org? If she isn't picky about the exact version, they have snapshots of it every 3 months or so prior to deletion, although the 16 September 2006 version is scrambled. -- Kendrick7 06:58, 9 December 2007 (UTC) starting to hope Harvard theses aren't graded on a curve

Actually I wound up pulling the Wayback Machine files and that worked out fine. Everyone seems to be satisfied (except possibly Mr. Brandt, but he'd need to take that up with the Wayback folks ). Durova 08:30, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

There is no shortage of wikipedia mirrors out there in any case. They copy of the article I have to hand comes from one of them.10:20, 9 December 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Geni (talk • contribs)

I still think the person would do well to contact Brandt:

1. Out of fairness to his concerns about his privacy
2. In order to get his side of the story if he wants to share it, thereby getting a better paper/thesis/case study. Brandt has written extensively on his concerns about Misplaced Pages's accuracy and ethics.

--A. B. 14:03, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree, and was in contact with both of them. Brandt expressed a willingness to help, but obviously still had concerns. The student apparently also has concerns about her privacy, though, and did not want to contact him. There's really nothing more we can do at this point. Natalie (talk) 14:53, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

AWB Checkpage

Just a notice for admins - the AutoWikiBrowser Checkpage needs to be updated. I see there are requests that are about a day old. Thanks. ╦ﺇ₥₥€Ԋ(/_contribs) 22:32, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Page moved without talk page

Can an admin move Talk:Barack Obama Muslim rumor to Talk:Media coverage of anti-Obama whisper campaigns and merge the edit histories? The article was moved to the latter, but without its associated talk page and then some templates were added to the talk page of the new location preventing a reuniting of article and talk page. Thanks! --Bobblehead 00:26, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

• Done. I did the history merge, but I don't think it was really needed, all that was added were talk page headers and they were present on the old page anyway. Ryan Postlethwaite 00:31, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

The Prisoner

Just come here for advice, really. An anon IP User:86.149.192.133 (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) edits nothing but this article, and all he ever does is remove an external link to "The Prisoner Appreciation Society", which is slightly more than the usual fanclub, as it has produced some credible analysis over the years. I am aware that there was a split in this organisation some years ago and wonder if this is somebody disgruntled. The diffs are , , and . I left him a notice asking for consensus here, but no reply. Now, if I ask for page protection, it is likely to be refused, because the vandalism hasn't reached the level where it would normally be applied; similarly, if I report to WP:AIV, it would not be regarded as critical enough. However, this guy will be back. Do I wait until he does it again and then report? I have tried to WP:AGF but he doesn't seem keen on talking. --Rodhullandemu (please reply here - contribs) 01:17, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

• The Prisoner Appreciation Society has been around for long enough to build up some credible history. As such it is in my view a significant club, at least sufficient to justify a link in The Prisoner. Last time I was at Portmeirion I seem to recall that they were running the Prisoner shop at No. 6. Guy (Help!) 15:41, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

And paradoxically, the IP address resolves to Ipswich, the erstwhile, if not current, PO BOx for this organisation. Curiouser & curiouser. Be seeing you. --Rodhullandemu (please reply here - contribs) 16:02, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't want to edit anymore

Block my account. This website is a waste of time; it's a bad habit, and only causes useless contentions. The Evil Spartan (talk) 08:14, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Per WP:BLOCK, self-blocks and requested blocks aren't permitted. Try the wikibreak enforcer and set it appropriately if you wish to not return. Sorry you feel the need to leave though. — Save_Us_229 08:37, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Try this script, it enforces a WikiBreak.--Sandahl 04:47, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Backlog at Misplaced Pages:Copyright problems

There is a backlog of over a month at Misplaced Pages:Copyright problems. This message is specifically for all those new admins who stated in their response to question one in their RFA that they would work on copyright issues. :) Right now there are only about two regular admins who work on it. Garion96 (talk) 11:49, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

A really great read and analysis of wikipedia and something to point to to Register readers

• http://www.cc.gatech.edu/~aforte/ForteBruckmanScalingConsensus.pdf

WAS 4.250 (talk) 15:07, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Way cool! Thanks for posting about it. Looks like some very interesting material. BusterD (talk) 15:14, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Awesome, I've saved it to hard drive. Excellent link, thanks. Durova 21:39, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Angela Beesley

This is now under discussion at deletion review. I have no opinion either way myself, but I prefer a review in the forum for, you know, reviewing deletions, than a potentially-dramatic thread here. >Radiant< 19:52, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Is BLPN dead?

I have watchlisted Misplaced Pages:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard since its inception; recently, one of the editors who started it and kept it working seems to have become disillusioned with Wiki, and the board doesn't seem to be working. I lodged a request for help and attention five days ago at WP:BLPN that has not gotten a single response. I am not an admin, I am not well enough up on legal threats and other BLP issues to know how to proceed next, I'm not even certain how big this problem is, but I'm uncomfortable with the things being posted by the COI/BLP/NPA/AGF-violating editor—Nraden, apparently the husband of T.S. Wiley of the Wiley Protocol. I'm also concerned about the messages that I removed per BLP and the subsequent talk page messages from Nraden (talk · contribs). I had only waded in to those pages because another editor asked me to look at the sourcing there; now I'm more concerned that the BLP noticeboard appears to have died, that there is a BLP/COI issue unaddressed by admins at these articles, and that I've gotten no guidance on these articles. For all I know, I'm the one in the wrong here, and the silence means there's no issue; I really can't tell. I've seen the complaints that WP:ANI is too busy, but if no one watches the other boards, of course all the complaints will end up at ANI. If I'm wrong here, and there's no serious issue, it would be nice if someone would say so; if the BLP/COI/NPA/AGF issues need attention, it would be nice if someone would help. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:38, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Seems like now is a good time to seek more volunteers for it. Here would be good, but since it doesn't necessarily take an administrator to pitch in maybe a broader request would be good also (Village Pump, Community Bulletin Board?) Durova 21:38, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

I had the same thing happen at the COI message board, so I'm wondering if we have a widespread problem; if people only read WP:AN/I, these other boards are never going to work well, and we'll continue to see complaints that ANI is overburdened. I guess my question is, is it me? Are my posts to those boards not intelligible, or is there a shortage of editors viewing those boards? It doesn't take an admin, but it does take people knowledgeable about the issues, which I'm not in either of those areas. It's the same issue that led to the demise of the community sanction noticeboard; not enough eyes on those other boards. I'm wondering if BLPN will become unuseful without Crockspot. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:23, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

I know I'm guilty of only checking AN and ANI. Partly because there is only so much time I want to spend on certain matters. If there was a rota to help people organise their time, I might contribute more at other boards. There are sixteen of them listed at {{Editabuselinks}} though, which does imply that some will get less attention than others. Carcharoth (talk) 23:54, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

BLPN seems pretty active to me. There may not be enough volunteers to address all of the concerns and I'm sure that issues fall through the cracks, but to be fair I've posted concerns that have been underaddressed on ANI as well. :) It's the nature of the volunteer system; people pick & choose the issues they address. It is the only way I can think to do it unless we issue job tickets, which has many other inherent difficulties (not the least of which is that not every volunteer is suited to or interested in every job and volunteer burn-out would likely be astronomical). It's also the nature of the messageboard. If you aren't addressed early, you're likely to be missed. I know that when I participate at BLPN, I tend to look at the last several entries for unanswered issues. I don't typically browse higher on the board. My general practice if I post at one forum and don't receive assistance is to either look specifically for a contributor to that forum and ask individually or, as you've done, to seek a different forum. --Moonriddengirl 14:20, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Nobody watching the Arbitration enforcement subnoticeboard?

No administrator has replied to my comment posted two days ago at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Arbitration enforcement, and I have noted a similar complain about the lack of administrator involvement from the user who posted a question few days before me. So please don't hesitate and read that subnoticeboard. Thanks, -- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 02:11, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, now at least I know it's not only me :-) See above, same issue at the BLP and the COI noticeboards. But go to AN/I and see how quickly someone says I need to "calm down" when I'm 100% calm :-) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:30, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Calm down, Sandy, please ;o) ➔ REDVEЯS likes kittens... and you 09:11, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Requested moves

Continuing in the same vein as the previous two threads, Misplaced Pages:Requested moves has been functioning with only a skeleton staff of administrators (User:Anthony Appleyard, User:GTBacchus, and me) for quite some time now. Two of our main admin closers (User:Stemonitis and User:Duja) are on extended wikibreaks. The result has been that the backlog tag has been up on RM continuously for over a month. Getting even one or two administrators to help out there would be great. GTBacchus and I have ourselves commented on several of the backlogged discussions, which makes it harder for us to close them. I'd like to have a bit more time I can spend doing real editing. Help would be much appreciated.... Dekimasuよ! 03:49, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

High-speed vandalism of AIV and other pages

User W345thn (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) appears to be vandalizing several pages. Once reported at WP:AIV, he seems to be blanking the report repeatedly. I include it here, so that someone notices it - given that it's in flux at AIV. Thanks, ZZ ~ Evidence 05:21, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

• W345thn (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) - On Nuclear safety in the U.S. (diff); vandalism after final warning, actions evidently indicate a vandalism only account. Sock, pushing anti-nuclear power POV, likes calling those who oppose him "ignorant right-wingers". Gscshoyru (talk) 05:10, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

...and he's blocked already. Thanks! ZZ ~ Evidence 05:22, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Block review of User:WJH1992

WJH1992 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Hi, I would like a block reviewed. I have indef blocked User:WJH1992 for small but ongoing disruption. This user is not a vandal, but is completely uncommunicative (doesn't even use edit summaries, blanks talk page, ...), doesn't seem to listen to any advice and/or warnings, and is in general a waste of time to a number of editors. He makes many, many very small edits, all of which have to be checked because at least half of them have to be reverted, because he doesn't follow the MoS, replaces images with image missing templates, replaces correct links with links to redirects, and so on. Individually, none of these edits is worth a fuss, but when it is about over a 1,000 edits in some five months (minus more than a month he has been blocked in total so far). I'll give one example: on LDV Pilot, he has in two months time been reverted eight times by four different editors for making the exact same edit. While I feel that indef for small infractions may be harsh, I see no other solution for the moment. I suggested to help him (as a kind of mentor), and pointed him to Adopt-a-User as another possibility (since I had already blocked him, so perhaps he didn't trust me or so). Fram (talk) 09:14, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

• I don't know, but an indefinite block sounds a little harsh. You said in a couple of your warnings that he had been making some good edits, as well, and those and the block length don't mix well, in my opinion. I think it would be better if the block is reduced to a lower time, and have someone talk to WJH (someone uninvolved, of course), see if this can be sorted out properly. Although it seems as though the patience of those who deal with him is running out, I really don't think an indefinite block is necessary at this stage. Spebi 09:22, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
  • If anyone uninvolved is willing to mentor WJH1992, and if WJH1992 is willing to be mentored, I have no objection to a reduction of the block or an unblocking. It's a pity to block someone who is not a clear-cut vandal, but continuing in the same way was not really an option either. Fram (talk) 10:04, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
• Indefinite sounds good, which is not "infinite", but "until the user starts to play nice with others". The user clearly acknowledged the warning and knew he was going to be blocked. If the user requests unblock and shows any promise of better behavior, unblock, but there seems little reason to believe in any specific block time. Kusma (talk) 11:10, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
  • With or without someone willing to mentor him, the onus is on him to promise good behavior if he's unblocked. I've looked through his entire history of edits to his own talk page, and only see two responses to warnings (he managed to get blocked not long after each, anyway). I agree this was a good time to show him the door. Someguy1221 (talk) 11:36, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
• Consider the LDV Pilot edits. The thing is that (according to the established view of English grammar at any rate) WJH1992 is right and is improving the article with those edits. All of those editors that have been reverting xem are wrong.

  Xe is applying (one view of) a rule of English grammar known as the sequence of tenses. It's a pity that we don't have an article that would explain it. (The nearest that we have is User:Schoen/Sequence of tenses.) But you and they can read about it in a large number of books on English grammar. You have blocked an editor in part for editing with the aim of correcting the grammar of articles. Further, we have several editors who are reverting attempted grammar corrections, calling them "vandalism". Those are entirely the wrong things to be happening.

  Kierant, Pyrope, and Fram, consider this a rebuke: Good faith attempts to correct the grammar of articles are not vandalism, and it is wrong of you to be treating them as such in your edit summaries and by your use of the vandalism rollback tools. This is not the first time that I've seen genuine attempts to make the encyclopaedia better rebuffed as "vandalism". Doing so is wrong. Uncle G (talk) 12:44, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

  • I don't think I ever called him a vandal, I explicitly started this post with "this user is not a vandal". The admin rollback tool is also allowed to use when reverting "large amounts of mistaken edits". Many of his edits were mistaken, some were apparently debatable. I don't see how the "is" version violates e.g. this. The "is" relates to a fact, a definition, while the "was" relates to an event. Mount Everest is a mountain that was first climbed by Hillary. Gondwana was a continent that was first described by someone (it doesn't exist anymore). Mona Lisa is a painting that was created by Da Vinci. Fram (talk) 14:22, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
  • G, you boldly stated that WJH was right and we were wrong. I do notice though, that both the examples I found when looking for "sequence of tenses", and the edits you so far have made on User:Schoen/Sequence of tenses, only indicate (logically) that "The Mini was a car that is produced in..." is inccrrect, but not that "The Mini is a car that was produced in..." is also incorrect. Fram (talk) 15:08, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I've yet to indef block anyone, rather only to place 3 months at most. Not that I'm telling you to do it, but I would unblock and re-block for 1 month. Bearian (talk) 13:58, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

And in what way would this one month block achieve what previous week and two week blocks have not? Fram (talk) 14:22, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

User:Arsensalsa

Hopefully, I've come to the right place. I often try to help out at the Help Desk and a few days ago came across this: Misplaced Pages:Help desk#User:Arsensalsa. I tried to help but it's all gone a bit wrong.

Apparently, what happened was User:Arsensalsa moved their user page to a main namespace article Arsen Salsa. Another help desk helper tried to move it back, but made an error and moved it to User:Arsen Salsa instead (making a double redirect). In response to their help desk question, I tried to fix the problem, but was not aware of the double redirect issue until after it all went wrong. I found I could not move User:Arsen Salsa to User:Arsensalsa because there was already something there.

Since then, the main namespace article has been deleted, leaving User:Arsensalsa redirecting to the user page of a non-existent user, User:Arsen Salsa. It would be great if you could fix this mess, moving the content & history of User:Arsen Salsa back to the real user User:Arsensalsa and deleting the User:Arsen Salsa page altogether.

Apologies for any inconvenience. Astronaut (talk) 13:59, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

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