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::Thanks for that ] (]), but ], ], and ] is what makes wiki work, so I'll stick with what I'm doing. But do you know what is really funny! As soon as I start to reference an article, suddenly editors pop out of the wood work and start to challange! Nothing wrong with that in and of itself, but they ignore all the unreferenced stuff! Now from experiance, my reaction to BS, is to just continue editing! So why don't you get R. fiend to put down the quotes, minus the commentary and I'm more than willing to work it in. What I will not do, is play BS word games. The best thing for an article is to have editors with opposing views to work through it together, but not the patent nonsense that is evident to date! I’ll just ignore the barbed comments, I see myself above that petty point scoring. --] (]) 20:37, 25 November 2007 (UTC) ::Thanks for that ] (]), but ], ], and ] is what makes wiki work, so I'll stick with what I'm doing. But do you know what is really funny! As soon as I start to reference an article, suddenly editors pop out of the wood work and start to challange! Nothing wrong with that in and of itself, but they ignore all the unreferenced stuff! Now from experiance, my reaction to BS, is to just continue editing! So why don't you get R. fiend to put down the quotes, minus the commentary and I'm more than willing to work it in. What I will not do, is play BS word games. The best thing for an article is to have editors with opposing views to work through it together, but not the patent nonsense that is evident to date! I’ll just ignore the barbed comments, I see myself above that petty point scoring. --] (]) 20:37, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

:::Let me repeat what I said above: you have done some excellent editing on this article. There is a great deal of BS in it, a lot of unreferenced stuff, and you have been working your way through it. I'm not about to start on it - I said I would do it months ago and never did, so I trust you to do it now. That's on the level, no point scoring. I admit I was annoyed when I wrote the last post. That was because you thanked me for providing sources, then turned around and accused me of original research and ignoring the sources, using my own quotes to attack me with. That is not on. In plain English, that is bullying. You say "the best thing for an article is to have editors with opposing views to work through it together", but you shout down R. fiend and refuse to accept anything but a one-word amendment to ''your'' text. That is not on. That is bullying. Now, I'm asking you, please stop this behaviour over something that does not even change the tone or import of the article, and start working ''with'' people who, like you, want to improve this article. ] (]) 21:03, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

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This 'To do' list- has it been updated since 2007? Basket Feudalist (talk) 16:14, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

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Template:FAOL An event in this article is a April 24 selected anniversary (may be in HTML comment)


Rebellion outside Dublin

heard recently the there may have been upwards of 2000 men in wexford (a freind of a freind cited these books as souces....); Wexford in the Rare oul' times by Nicholas Furlong/Enniscorthy 2000 by P Rossiter and Na daoine Loch Garman may 1916.. men took both wexford and enniscorthy towns.... amnt sure but it might be worth checkin up on.... --83.45.174.74 15:35, 7 December 2006 (UTC)


ISBN's for bibliography

I haven't got the ISBNs of the books listed here. (The copies I have are all first editions without modern ISBNs.) I will add in the ISBNs as I get them. If anyone else has them, feel free to add them in. JTD 02:19 Dec 20, 2002 (UTC)

I added the ISBN for the Lyons book, but I don't have the other two. I could add several other books on the topic if that would be helpful. On another note, does anyone think that an entry on the Easter Rising without a single mention of the Irish Republican Brotherhood is somewhat remiss? It was that organization (more under the leadership of Tom Clarke and Sean MacDiarmida than anyone else) that really planned the rising. -R. fiend

Cleanup tag

I have put the cleanup flag on this article because I think it reflects the traditional British view of the rising e.g. if only they had not executed the leaders things might have worked out very differently. It would help if it took account of Fay and Burton's work e.g. that hostility to the rising among the Dublin population has been exagerrated, or that while the rising presented major military problems it was not an obvious piece of lunacy or intended as a "blood sacrifice", the British troops actually did quite well to defeat the rising in only a week. PatGallacher 00:07, 2005 August 15 (UTC)

I'm not convinced. No one can say what might have happened if the Brits hadn't executed the leaders, but the article doesn't really dwell on that. Robert Kee, for instance, postulates that the support for Sinn Fein in 1918 was less about the population being appalled at the executions of the leaders so much as their reslove against conscription and the division of Ireland. While the antipathy for the general population for the rising and its leaders wasn't universal, it was pretty widespread, which is hardly surprising given the number of Irishmen serving in the British army at the time, as well as the fact that the rising resulted mostly in the death of Irishmen, not British soldiers. Likewise there was still substantial support for and belief in Home Rule. Certainly Pearse, at least, did view the rising as a blood sacrifice, and while other leaders may have hoped or victory, once it began they new quite well it was not feasible from a military standpoint; Connolly himself said they didn't stand a chance. Roughly a thousand under-equipped, ill-trained men never did stand a chance at victory. Had they got the entirety of the Irish Volunteers to turn out they might have played havoc with British rule in Ireland foir a time, but hey knew that wasn't going to happen, particularly after MacNeill's countermand. I'm going to remove the cleanup tag, though you should feel free to edit the article as you see fit. -R. fiend 01:47, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

Rm Boer paragraph?

Do we really need a whole paragraph on this? Maybe a sentence would be ok, but it look rather irrelevent to me. Jdorney 14:09, 20 December 2005 (UTC)


US reaction to the Rising

Aside from intervening in de Valera's execution, does anybody know what the US reaction was? Did they openly criticise it? El Gringo 02:54, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

The only surviving leader(Eamonn de Valera) of the revolution went on to organise the war of independence? Is this really acurate? FE

Surely its also inaccutate to call the rising the earliest socialist rising in europe - even if it was - and i don't think so -wouldn't the Commune have more of a right to that claim?

Added image of military forces

Its a self made image, and its not to any particular scale- its only to give a military view of what took place. Picture paints a thousand words etc. Please redo it/correct if you think necessary. Thanks. Fluffy999 22:08, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Nice pic, Fluffy! Just a couple or three thoughts:
Should it maybe be titled 'Placements of Rebel forces and British troops...'?
Should the Shelbourne be filled in in black (British Army point)?
Should Trinity College be named?
Scolaire 19:52, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Thanks :) Yes its fine to rename it whatever is most appropriate for the timeperiod. I've only seen 2 maps of the engagements so you could be right on the other points too. Thanks Fluffy999 20:17, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Disputed comment

It stands as the last military clash on British soil. What is 'military clash' defined as? What about the War of Independence and the Troubles, to name the first two examples that come to mind? --Kwekubo 18:33, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

...and what is "British soil" anyway? It could just as easily refer to the Fanklands/Malvinas in the 1980's. I've deleted that sentence.
Scolaire 22:23, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
I'd say calling Ireland "British Soil" is just trying to be inflammatory and start an argument.Easter rising

Nothern Ireland as far as i am concerend is British soil and that the Easter Rising was a two-bit rebillion, The troubles were all the fault of IRA/Republicans who killed thousands of innocent people for what, an agreement which has made a sucker out of everyone. (Gareth McClelland) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.99.80.61 (talk • contribs)

Thanks for that, Gareth. Scholarly debate is always welcome. Scolaire 18:04, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
Yes, what a scholarly opinion that was. Run along, lad, you're late for your UVF meeting. ---Charles 18:39, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
Of course the less diplomatic option is that Misplaced Pages is not a blog (and thus to erase such rants). Djegan 18:42, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
I was informed by an administrator that doing so would be a violation of policy---but, trust me, I am tempted to do so anyway. ---Charles 18:45, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

James Connolly & The Citizen Army

In his book "The Life and Times of James Connolly" historian C Desmond Greaves disputes, with evidence, two assertions in your articles.

Firstly, the idea that if the Citizen Army had have started a seperate rising it would have been a "fiasco". This is not a historical fact. A few years earlier James Connolly had helped organise a successful general strike in Dublin and elsewhere (the "Lock-out") against the most powerful Empire in the world at that time. Greaves describes the Citizen Army as an armed off-shoot of that Labour movement. We can never know if Connolly could have mobilized a mass labour movement behind his own Citizen Army rising. But if he could, who's to say it would not have been successful? Connolly's aim was different to the IRB and the Nationalists, a socialist revoloution.

Secondly, Greaves claims that Roger Casement did not arrive in Ireland to stop the rising, but to warn that a rising should not be attempted if it depended SOLELY on arms arriving from Germany. Certainly Connolly did not believe the rising depended only on that armed shipment.

Opening paragraph

"The Easter Rising (Irish: Éirí Amach na Cásca) was a rebellion staged in Ireland against British rule on Easter Monday, April 24, 1916. Despite its military failure, it can be judged as being a significant stepping-stone in the eventual creation of the Irish Republic. The rising was the most significant since the rebellion of 1798. It was an attempt by militant republicans to violently force independence from the United Kingdom. The Irish Republican revolutionary attempt occurred from April 24 to April 30, 1916, in which the Irish Republican Brotherhood ..."

There is a good deal of repitition in this short paragraph:

The date, April 24th, appears twice
That it was against British rule is stated twice
That it was staged by republicans is stated three times

There is also an error of fact: The IRB was involved in the planning of the Rising, but did not "attempt" it, "joined by a part of the Irish Volunteers and the smaller Irish Citizen Army."

My edit is an attempt to make the opening paragraph more readable. It is not an attempt to introduce any POV. Feel free to re-word it, but please do not simply revert, as that achieves nothing.

Scolaire 16:44, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

I think that is greatly improved. It flows better with the rewording and the removal of the repetitious dates and phrases. ---Charles 17:24, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Aw, shucks! Thanks!  :-D Scolaire 23:22, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

The Proclamation and the infobox

For want of a more suitable image, I have moved the pic of the Proclamation into the infobox. I have also shortened the caption, as the reading of the Proclamation is dealt with in the article itself. Personally, I would prefer to have something like a photo of O'Connell St. after the fighting, if one could be found or uploaded. Scolaire 19:20, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Opening paragraph (continued)

So that the opening paragraph becomes the opening paragraph, I have given the second paragraph a title. This puts it under the table of contents and into the article proper. I would have no problem with the title being changed. It was the best I could think of. I have moved the third paragraph down into the "1918 General Election" section because it deals with later events. I've also removed all links from this particular paragraph because everything in it has already been linked to above. Scolaire 22:10, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Infobox

No, I'm sorry, but the IRB were not combatants in this (see the first "Opening Paragraph" above). The IRB was a secret, oathbound society devoted to bringing about an uprising. It was in no sense an army, it did not have a uniform and its members carried guns only as members of some other organization e.g. the Volunteers. IRB has to go.
The RIC were involved because they were attacked by Volunteers in Ashbourne, so I suppose you have to allow them as combatants, but I don't remember anything about the DMP engaging the Republicans in battle in Dublin. In the absence of some sort of citation, I think the DMP has to go as well.
Scolaire 18:42, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

But members of the IRB fought in the rising even if not under the IRB banner. Dermo69

So did members of the Catholic Church and members of the Trade Union Congress. I can't be bothered with an edit war, but the IRB does not belong in there under combatants. Scolaire 12:40, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

The IRB was the organisation behind the easter rising.It infiltrated the Irish volunteers and included important figures such as thomas clarke.Its save to say the IRB was a part of the rising.You're probably right about the DMP though.I'll check that one out Dermo69

YOU people are both mistaken, have u even read the proclaimation the most important document of the rising which clearly states "having organised and trained her manhood through her secret revolutionary organisation THE IRISH REPUBLICAN BROTHERHOOD" I think the proclaimation clearly says that the IRB were involved as combatants.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.134.150.65 (talk • contribs)

I am well aware of the role of the IRB in the Rising, and the acknowlegement of them in the Proclamation. What I'm saying is that the IRB planned the Rising, and a planner is not a combatant. The combatants were the soldiers (i.e. Volunteers and Citizen Army) who fought on behalf of the IRB, if you like. Thus, George W. Bush is not a combatant in the Iraq War, neither is the American Government, or American oil interests — only the American military (and its allies) are combatants. This is not to diminish the role of the IRB in the Rising, just to define it precisely.
Scolaire 18:49, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Irish Republicanism infobox

As I've said elsewhere, the infobox is beautifully laid out, and contains a mass of information. Unfortunately, when there are other graphics in the article it pushes the text down and makes the article less readable. What I've done here, as with Easter Proclamation, is to try to leave in everything that is directly relevant to this article, and still preserve the broader view that it was obviously meant to convey. I hope i have succeeded reasonably well.
Scolaire 17:07, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Apologies. I was trying to fix the page when my crappy internet link went down. Where an infobox affects the location of images, the standard solution applied all over WP is simple: change the image placement from right to left (or vice versa if the box is on the left). Because of the nature of the template a reader should be able to link into a lot more than just the piece you left here. I think it is important that people can use the whole template to get access to all the information. The box is designed as a form of crossroads from which a reader can go to everything from political topics to biographies to artistic aspects to links to other strands in Irish history, whether Unionism, Monarchism, etc. So readers should be able in one straight link, for example, to go from here to songs about the Rising (we need some articles about them), or to Sinn Féin, or by jumping to the forthcoming Nationalist template to the IIP, etc etc.
BTW one minor point: WP has a policy of using contemporaneous names. So one doesn't write St. Petersburg when discussing a time period when the city was called Leningrad, or vice versa. Similarly, given that in 1916 the name used was Kingstown, not Dun Laoghaire, normally we'd use a pipe to Kingstown and then have in brackets "later called Dun Laoghaire". That is because all the contemporary documents would use that name and so if someone reading the article here then read contemporary documents and weren't au fait with the name change they might be confused by why the names in our article didn't feature in the article. Similarly references before its name change speak of Rhodesia not Zimbabwe, Constantinople not Istanbul, Sackville Street and Rutland Square not O'Connell Street and Parnell Square. And if tomorrow it was decided to rename Parnell Square to say de Valera Square, references up to pre-tomorrow's date would use the contemporaneous name.
I hope that helps. FearÉIREANN\ 22:56, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

From the template talk page, I gather: "It is a draft. Drafts put everything in and then edit them." I am therefore reverting to my own shortened version until the draft is ready to be put in this article.
Scolaire 23:25, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

The infobox is now of suitable size (and I presume it's not going to grow again), so I am happy to replace it.
Scolaire 17:45, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Contradiction about partition?

The Background sections says the Home Rule Act 1914 introduced partition, but the article on it says that the 1914 Act was for one Home Rule Parliament for the whole island. And that partition didn't become an issue until later - this was my understanding. Aaron McDaid (talk - contribs) 18:37, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

The Home Rule Bill 1912 was for the whole island of Ireland. By the time it was enacted, in 1914, it excluded the six counties of the north-east. This is discussed in the The shaping of Partition section of the Home rule Act 1914 article. Scolaire 20:11, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. The intro to the Home Rule Act 1914 is a bit vague about it. I'll leave a note on its talk page. Aaron McDaid (talk - contribs) 20:14, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

militant?

the irish citizens who rose up to oust the british cannot be referred to as "militants". they were irish citizens who took up arms to free their homeland from english rule. to me they are the same as the Palestinians who defend thier homeland from Zionist occupation. Keltik31 13:18, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

"Militant" simply means "taking up arms". In my mind, at least, it has no negative connotations. "Citizen soldier", on the other hand, is just an odd phrase that is out of synch with the rest of the article. As someone who is proud of my country's militant past, I would prefer to see it left the way it was. Scolaire 22:39, 12 December 2006 (UTC)


broken link

the link to the essay is broken, I'm pretty sure this :http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/easterrising/personal/ is where it is now 139.168.142.218 21:04, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Edit of intro

Quote: "Despite its military failure, some judge it as being a significant stepping-stone towards Irish independence. Some consider the facts that the Third Home Rule Act had already been passed in 1914 and that the Irish Parliamentary Party already had an overwhelming dominant electoral position in most of Ireland as evidence that Irish home rule was inevitable and the Rising was a stepping-stone towards ensuring that it was preceeded by extensive violence."

Does anybody else feel like me that this is POV masquerading as NPOV? Firstly, the Home Rule Act and the IPP are dealt with in the very next paragraph, and the what-ifs are dealt with ad nauseam later on; secondly, the original paragraph said that the Rising was a stepping-stone toward the Irish Republic, not towards independence — the Home Rule Act would never have led to the establishment of a republic; and most importantly, the whole drift of the edit is that the 1916 leaders knew that independence was inevitable, and just wanted to make sure that there was "extensive violence" first.
I propose to revert this edit unless someone gives me a compelling reason not to.
Scolaire 09:38, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Sounds good. Revert away, if you haven't already. -R. fiend 13:27, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

"This indignation led to a radical shift in public perception of the Rising and within three years of its failure, the separatist Sinn Féin party won an overwhelming majority in a general election, supporting the creation of an Irish Republic and endorsing the actions of the 1916 rebels".

This is an unclear statement Sinn Fein won a majority of Westminister seats under the first past the post system, however Sinn Fein did not gain the support of the majority of Irish voters.

--Boz 12:49, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

"Execution of all leaders"

I changed the entry in the result section from "execution of all leaders" with a note about de Valera being the exception, to simply "execution of leaders", without the note on Dev. Defining "leader" can be tricky. Certainly Dev was the highest ranking officer not to be executed (with the possible exeception of The O'Rahilly, who died in the fighting), but if you're going to say he was a leader because he was a battalion commandant, then we might have to call some other unexecuted officers leaders as well (such as Cathal Brugha, perhaps). That's the problem with overuse of infoboxes, they don't leave room for any complexity; things can't always be summed up accurately in a few words. Also, to say it was solely Dev's ties to the US that saved him is perhaps a bit controversial. -R. fiend 14:49, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Some would say that the principal leaders were those who signed the proclamation?86.42.197.249 10:28, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
Sure, in which case the statement about de Valera being the exception is untrue, as he was not a signatory. -R. fiend 15:11, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Infiltrating Sinn Féin etc

A large part of this article does not deal with the Easter rising at all. I think this is probably due to the history of the article - what began as a couple of short sentences became relatively lengthy sections. However, I think the time has come to replace these sections with a more pertinent discussion of the aftermath and legacy of the Rising. Scolaire 08:05, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree and think it has slipped from a B rating. Very little on the deal(s) with the Germans (the Aud didn't just turn up), nor on Pearse's idea of a healthy blood sacrifice (are we too PC to admit that today?), nor on the involvement of poets like Desmond Fitzgerald, nor on other revolts in WWI such as the Arab Revolt sponsored by the British at the same time. Did no-one in 1916 see the contradiction of support from both imperial Germany and Irish socialists?86.42.197.249 10:39, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

From the authorities' point of view?

"From the authorities' point of view, given the circumstances of the time and the nature of the offences, it is difficult to see that there was any other appropriate punishment. Britain was fighting a war on an unprecedented scale, a war in which many thousands of Irish volunteers in the British forces had already lost their lives." This sounds more like an opinion, at least the way it is written now. Is it at all possible to perhaps get some source on this, and reference it as being the position held by one or more of the British individuals involved? Or perhaps this section might be changed to read: "Although most historians agree that the decision to execute the suspected leaders backfired, it is unsurprising that they chose to do so given the circumstances of the time and the nature of the offenses. Britain was fighting a war on an unprecedented scale, a war in which many thousands of Irish volunteers in the British forces had already lost their lives..." To me, this sounds like more of a description of the authorities' thought processes, and less an opinion about what should have been done. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.77.190.203 (talk) 02:42, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree. And in the absence of any citations, its probably OR as well. Scolaire 06:47, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

  • the stuff afterwards about how the Irish population was initially completely opposed to the rising and then suddenly became Republican after the executions afterwards is a bit of a hackneyed truism as well. Obviously the republican minded proportion of the population weren't particularly vocal in the immediate aftermath, but there wasn't a mass road to Damascus-like experience of the executions and internment - the sentiment was already there for the most part. Obviously this all needs evidence, which I will try and pull out if I've got the time, hence why I'm writing this on the talk page rather than the article. Andehandehandeh 11:46, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

IRB and the Volunteers

The rising was not a coup de main by the IRB on the Volunteers. The IRB and been involved in the establishment of the Volunteers from the start. Please provide sources which dispute this. --Domer48 (talk) 16:11, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Some eople who were involved in the establishment of the Volunteers were also members of the IRB. This is not the same as being established by the IRB> Of the 10 people at the inaugural meeting, only half were IRB members. Of the 30 on the original Provisional committee, only 12 were (though a few others later joined, such as Pearse). R. fiend (talk) 16:18, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

The IRB knew from before their formation what they planned to do with the Volunteers! --Domer48 (talk) 16:22, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

"...the hidden hand behind both the formation of the Irish Voulnteers in 1913 and the planning of the Rising..." Now it is this statement which has to be addressed. You need a source which disputes the reference. --Domer48 (talk) 16:30, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, the latter part is certainly true, but the former is a pretty general and unspecific statement. The IRB was involved with the Volunteers from the beginning. I don't dispute, but the statement that the IRB created the Volunteers in simply false. You are correct in that they knew what they planned to do from their inception (and before, as much as one can have plans for an as-of-yet non-existent organization), but that is not the same as being the creation of the IRB, which is what the article now states.
Also note that Hobson was on the Supreme Council of the IRB (until he resigned in 1914) and was on the Provisional Committee of the Volunteers (one of the only to hold both positions), and was involved in the formation of the Volunteers from the earliest stages, so he is about as good a source as one can hope for. -R. fiend (talk) 17:08, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

The pretence for establishing the Volunteers was in responce to the establishment of the UVF. Who prompted O'Neill to establish the Volunteers? The IRB. O'Neill was a respectable figure head, a cover if you will, or to be blunt, a patsy. The IRB from its inception had only to wait for the oppertunity, and long before the start of the war, they knew it was coming. This is not my opinion, so if I have to reference this let me know? --Domer48 (talk) 18:10, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

  • "The IRB seized its chance to capitalise on this sense of identity when Eoin MacNeill, vice-president of the Gaelic League, wrote an article in the organ of the Gaelic League, An Cliadheamh Soluis, in October 1913, proposing that a body of Southern Volunteers be established on the same line as the Ulster Volunteers. Using the respected name of MacNeill as a front, the IRB organised a meeting to which all parties were invited, at the Rotunda Hall, Dublin, on November 25." (The IRA, Tim Pat Coogan, 1970, page 33)
I would certainly read from that that the IRB were behind the formation of the Volunteers, and that MacNeill was a figurehead. Scolaire (talk) 18:36, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for that Scolaire (talk). Tim Pat Coogan in 1916: The Easter Rising, even suggests that the article he wrote may have been prompted by them as well. --Domer48 (talk) 19:07, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Planning the Rising

I have placed some of the text in the form of a footnote. I did this for two reasons, the first being that it is not relevant to the planning of the Rising, the other being it is unreferenced, and liable to be removed. The material I added, is very relevant and must have been omitted. Unfortunately there are a number of red links. All I can suggest is we remove the links, or if editors are knowledgeable try to establish the links. --Domer48 (talk) 20:00, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

On the subject of footnotes, there are currently nine references to page 67 of Eoin Neeson. I think it would be better if the details of the publication were moved to the Bibliography section and the references changed to "Neeson, page 67" or the appropriate page if different. Scolaire (talk) 20:28, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Sorry about that Scolaire (talk) will fix it now. --Domer48 (talk) 20:51, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Scolaire (talk) this is the only way I know how to reference, do you have a link to other formatts? --Domer48 (talk) 20:55, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
Unfortunately, the only way to do it is to type "<ref>Neeson, page 67</ref>" etc. for each of the refs, instead of the "name=Neeson" format that you're currently using. See Free Derry where I've cited Eamonn McCann and others many times, with the book details down in the Bibliography section. Scolaire (talk) 21:39, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Ye had a look, it just seems a bit messy. The thing is though most if not all of these books have an index at the back of the book. Which are very easy to use. I don't know to be honest which is best? --Domer48 (talk) 21:51, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Messy, yes, but it's the way WP likes it. See also Provisional IRA campaign 1969–1997‎ (something I had no part in). A good citation takes you not just to the book but to the page, so that the information is there at your fingertips. Also, to be honest, Eoin Neeson just looks funny. Scolaire (talk) 22:15, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Ye I suppose your right. Just thinking of the amount of articles I have edited. Ah well one at a time I suppose. Thanks, --Domer48 (talk) 22:31, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Creation of the Volunteers question

I think the footnoted section is significant enough to appear in the text. If sources are an issue, it's a pretty well established fact, and any one of a number of texts can be cited.

As for the other issue, I still maintain it is incorrect to say that the Volunteers were the creation of the IRB. They had a hand in its creation (or at least its members did, which is not necessarily the same thing), but they, as an organization, did not form the Volunteers. Bulmer Hobson was instrumental in planing the first meeting to discuss formation of the Volunteers at Wynn's Hotel on 11 November, 1913, but he was not acting on behalf of the IRB, and he himself did not attend the meeting as he was considered too radical and was worried about driving away more moderate voices. MacNeill was chairman, and certainly more than a figurehead leader. IRB members were a minority on the Provisional Committee until the reorganization of the Volunteers following the split with Redmond the following year.

You say that the IRB prompted MacNeill to form the Volunteers after publication his article The North Began. What is your specific source on that? The single metaphorical sentence about "the hidden hand" isn't specific enough. MacNeill certainly never took orders from the IRB, though he was on good terms with some of its members. (Also, on what page of Coogan's book does it imply that the IRB may have prompted MacNeill's article? I have that book in front of me and would like to see his exact phrasing.) Members of the IRB did much of the planning of the Rotunda meeting, but exactly who formed the Volunteers is not entirely straightforward. The three main people responsible were MacNeill, O'Rahilly, and Hobson. Of them, only Hobson was a member of the IRB, and upon the formation of the Volunteers, he had divided loyalties between the two groups. After the formation, the IRB merely had a disproportionate representation in the leadership, but were still a distinct minority. They didn;t gain effective control of the organization until 1916, and even then it was limited, as the Rising proved. Much of this can be supported by any number of books (Hobson himself in the collection Irish Volunteers 1913-1915 edited by F.X. Martin, Michael Tierney's book Eoin MacNeill, Robert Kee's The Green Flag', to name a few).

Okay, I probably said more than was necessary there, but I think it is certainly correct to say that the IRB had a hand in the creation of the Volunteers, but were not the creators of it, and I think the article needs to reflect that. I'm open to suggestions of exact phrasing. -R. fiend (talk) 22:05, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

"in October 1913, a meeting to which MacNeill was invited was held in Wynne's Hotel Dublin, at the instigation of the IRB...the IRB men kept themselves in the background." Tim Pat Coogan, 1916: Easter Rising, pg. 50
"It may or may not have been an IRB man who prompted Eoin MacNeill, to write the momentous article..." op. cit.
As to the footnote, reference it, and explaine how it is relevant Maybe further down. It is not incorrect to say they were the creation of the IRB, the references say they were. To say they they had a hand in it is incorrect. They had a purpose, "secure control of the Volunteers" the word here is "secre" they had control from the start. "the hidden hand" is also a quote, the IRB, obviously, did I need to include that, I thought it was obvious. Who formed the Volunteers is entirely straightforward. The references again have said it! "They didn;t gain effective control of the organization until 1916" thats pure BS. Reference it! --Domer48 (talk) 23:15, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
As for the first quote, that's not on page 50 of my book. Do you have the hardcover edition? My page 50 deals with the landing at Howth. In any case, it seems it was Hobson who organized the first meeting at Wynn's Hotel, but he wasn't even present for it. To fully equate Hobson and the IRB is going a bit far, particularly in light of his siding with the Volunteer leadership over the IRB leadership with the Redmond vote. Additionally, calling an inaugural meeting and creating the Volunteers are not one and the same. The Volunteers were created in a series of meetings in which the IRB had a hand, but they were never the majority.
The second quote is irrelevant. "May or may not have" tells us nothing. My sources seem to say that it was O'Rahilly who encouraged MacNeill to write his article, and O'Rahilly was never a member of the IRB (though MacNeill may have believed he was).
As for control of the Volunteers, it is clear that the IRB did not have control of them, as the chairman (later Chief-of-Staff) was not only not an IRB member, but quite unsympathetic to them in general. The Provisional Committee had about 13 IRB men out of 30 members before Redmond's appointees were included in June, 1914, and obviously a much smaller percentage afterwards. (That they couldn't prevent Redmond from nearly taking over shows how little control they had.) It wasn't until after the split between the National and Irish Volunteers in September that the IRB really started to get real control over important things like mobilization, and even then they had to recruit Plunkett and MacDonagh, as well as the remaining commandant Valera. Even then IRB members were a small minority of the Volunteers (albeit a highly active and powerful one). Even on the eve of the rising, the integral headquarters staff was under the general command of a non-IRB man (MacNeill), had another (O'Rahilly) as director of arms, and had an out-of-the-loop, untrusted, and unsympathetic IRB man (Hobson) as quartermaster. Pearse's appointment as Director of military organization is the only reason they were able to mobilize the Volunteers for the "maneuvers" at Easter, which were a thinly veiled disguise for a general rising, and recruitment of the 4 commandants was the only reason they could actually stage a rebellion. That they didn't have effective control of the Volunteers even as the Rising was about to occur is evident that until the last minute they were trying to convince, and later trick, MacNeill into signing off on the rising, and when that didn't work, by forcing his hand by revealing that German weapons were being landed and the British were about to suppress the Volunteers if they didn't act first. And even after that, it's clear they didn't have complete control when a single note by MacNeill cut Volunteer turnout to a small fraction in Dublin, and basically stopped it in the rest of the country. The IRB played an important role in the creation of the Volunteers, but were not the creators, and while they had a highly disproportionate influence within the organization, they never fully controlled the Volunteers. They were always two very distinct organizations. -R. fiend (talk) 23:59, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

References! Not comment! --Domer48 (talk) 00:10, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

This can all be backed up with many books on the subject. Sorry, but I can't take a single sentence quote to verify content covering several years of history. I gave you a partial list of books, and I can name some others, though it's been a while since I read most of them so trying to remember which book backs up which fact the best can take some time. What particular issues do you question? Surely you're familiar enough with some of the history that you don't need a citation for every sentence. Hobson's essay on the foundation of the Volunteers is a very good first hand source, though I imagine you'd have trouble finding it; I had to steal it from a university library. Tell me what specific facts you want cited and I'll try to get books and page numbers for you tomorrow, though it may take some time. I've got about a couple dozen books covering the Rising and it's players. -R. fiend (talk) 00:17, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
Current text: "Since its inception in 1913, the Volunteers, were the creation of the IRB, for precisely this purpose"
Possible edit: "The IRB were closely involved in the formation of the Volunteers in 1913, aware that such a force could be used for insurrection in the event of a European war.<ref>The IRA, Tim Pat Coogan, 1970, page 33</ref>"
Scolaire (talk) 22:22, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
Much better, though I don't think we need to mention the European War specifically, as they were anxious for an insurrection with or without a war (the war obviously proved to be an opportunity for them, but they would not have intended to wait for one). "...used for insurrection for the establishment of an Irish Republic" might be better. I'm also thinking that better phrasing would be "Members of the IRB were closely involved..." as it's a bit unclear what was being planned by the IRB as an organization, and what was being done by various Nationalists who were members of the IRB. The primary leaders of the IRB including the President (who I believe was James Deakin a the time) had little hand in the Volunteers, and I believe Tom Clarke was not involved at all. Yes, there were numerous members of the IRC involved in the Volunteers from the earliest day, but that's more true of the Gaelic League (almost all of the founding members of the Volunteers were also in the Gaelic League), and no one would claim they created the Volunteers. The IRB at the time was a recently revitalized organization that was still emerging from a period of complete stagnation, and many of their most important members for the coming insurrection had yet to be recruited. I guess that's sort of a minor point; the IRB certainly had plans for the Volunteers from the outset. -R. fiend (talk) 22:52, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

"they were anxious for an insurrection with or without a war" that is so out of the park, I'd like a reference for that. One question, thats all! What were the objectives of the rising, just the main four will do. --Domer48 (talk) 23:17, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

So you maintain that if World War I had been averted (or if Britain would have stayed out of it), the IRB would have been content to sit on their hands and do nothing forever? I have no idea what they would have done exactly, or how it would have played out, but the IRB oath says nothing about waiting for Britain to get involved in a continental war of attrition before taking any action, particularly when they have partial control of a Volunteer army. -R. fiend (talk) 00:06, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Ah one more, why was Tom Clarke sent to Ireland in 1907? --Domer48 (talk) 23:21, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

One simply question, what nationalist organisation did the IRB not infiltrate at this time? Just a one word answer? --Domer48 (talk) 23:24, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Another quote:
  • "The Ulster Volunteers were then established by Carson to resist Home Rule. This gave the IRB the chance they had been hoping for, and they immediately set to work to establish the Irish Volunteers…Seán MacDermott and Bulmer Hobson did most of the work; Tom dared not show his nose in that, for to do so would make the British suspicious of it, but it was all done in collaboration with Tom behind the scenes." (Revolutionary Woman, Kathleen Clarke, 1991, page 44)
I'm not going to quote the entire page, but she goes on to say that the IRB decided who should be proposed to the Provisional Executive, that they should represent every section of the community, but that they should not include anybody who was identified with the revolutionary element. Hobson went against that decision by accepting the position of Secretary, and Clarke was shaken by that (the rift between the two men came later). She concludes:
  • "Let me explain that these precautions and safeguards were with the object of not arousing British suspicions about the real object of the Irish Volunteers; they really were intended to be the open arm of the IRB."
And from the same book:
  • "Uncle John would have liked to keep us in Limerick , but from the point of view of the work Tom intended doing, to prepare the country to take advantage of the coming war, Dublin was best suited." (page 36)
And really, "if World War I had been averted" belongs in an alternative universe. It was regarded as inevitable, and it was inevitable. Scolaire (talk) 11:41, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, I read Kathleen Clarke's book, and while it gives some very good insight into what Tom was doing, the entire thing is hardly impartial, and basically tries to convince the reader the Tom and MacDermott did everything (mostly at the expense of Hobson). And I see her point, those two are probably ore responsible for the Rising than anyone else, yet Pearse and Connolly seem to be the only two anyone remembers. In any case, the first quote can be established as not 100% true in that no one "immediately" set out to establish the Irish Volunteers, as they weren't formed for well over a year later (closer to two, I believe). Yes, Hobson and MacDermott were involved (particularly the former), but Kathleen makes it sound like those two did basically all the work, which simply isn't true. Clarke is not a historian; she writes from her perspective, but has no special knowledge of what happened at the Volunteers' formation. Hobson does. He lists all the people involved, and even gives their allegiances.
"...they really were intended to be the open arm of the IRB." Yes, that was the IRB's view of the situation, but that was not their established or stated purpose. The Irish Volunteers were never a republican organization, though the IRB basically sought to make them one. After the rising they evolved into the IRA (or with the rising, one could say, but even during the fighting some of the men involved were not staunch republicans), but that was a different situation.
I really don't want to dwell on the WWI scenario. I just think it's incorrect to say that the IRB was relying on a European war, and would not have ever acted without it. At least, I have seen no indication that they would have. (As for the inevitability of the war, well, nothing's 100% inevitable and British involvement certainly was not, Germany was counting on that). When the war started, the Supreme Council agreed that they must act before the end of the war, as it was too good an opportunity to miss, but they never said they would not act after the war. Shortly after the war started, the prevailing opinion was that it would be over in months, yet the IRB did not act until 1916. Did they know something about the duration that no one else did? How's this for a proposed edit: "The IRB were closely involved in the formation of the Volunteers in 1913, aware that such a force could be used for insurrection to establish an Irish Republic." If you like, something like "particularly given the likelihood of a imminent European war" could be added to the end, but I'd like to avoid any phrasing that implies no war = no insurrection. -R. fiend (talk) 14:46, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
"All of these were members of both the IRB, and (with the exception of Clarke) the Irish Volunteers. The IRB were closely involved in the formation of the Volunteers in 1913, aware that such a force could be used for insurrection to establish an Irish Republic, particularly given the likelihood of a imminent European war; hence by 1916 a large proportion of the Volunteer leadership were devoted republicans." That works for me. Scolaire (talk) 15:53, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
Looks good. -R. fiend (talk) 16:43, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

"Seán MacDermott and Bulmer Hobson did most of the work;" And yet R. fiend (talk) says Kathleen Clarke "basically tries to convince the reader the Tom and MacDermott did everything (mostly at the expense of Hobson)."

"the first quote can be established as not 100% true in that no one "immediately" set out to establish the Irish Volunteers" The references have established that they did! 100% true.

"she writes from her perspective" and so dose Hobson!

"Clarke is not a historian" and Hobson was?

R. fiend (talk) you are not the arbitrator of what is and is not a reliable source. Kathleen Clarke was a contemporary of this period, and had a more direct understanding on this period through her husband, Tom Clarke. It has been verifiably established that the IRB instigated the forming of the Volunteers, through reliable sources. So unless you come up with a verifiable source which says Kathleen Clarke is otherwise, it is just your opinion. In fact, that is what your contributions consist of, your opinion. Last quote, and that is it:

“They dared not move themselves. Any move by known physical force men in the direction of a Volunteer Force would be certain to be stopped notwithstanding the precedent established by Carson, and the I.R.B. therefore confined itself to encouraging the expression of the opinion that we, too, ought to organise a Volunteer Force for the defence of Ireland. As the Ulster move developed this opinion was given expression to by many people of unexceptionable “constitutional” charter by followers of the Irish Parliamentary Party, and by followers of no party, who saw in the Ulster move a threat to Home Rule. From July, 1913, a small Committee met regularly in Dublin and watched the growth of opinion, refraining from taking any action until the Ulster precedent should have been solidly established, and hoping for a lead from some “constitutional” quarter. The lead came fro Eoin McNeill, Professor of Early Irish History in University College, Dublin, without political affiliation of any kind, Vice-President of the Gaelic League, who wrote an article in the League paper advocating the formation of an Irish Volunteer Force. McNeill was interviewed and agreed to take a part in the formation of such a force, other constitutionalists of the same mind appeared, and eventually a Provisional Committee for the establishment of a Volunteer Force met at the end October.” P. S. O'Hegarty, A History of Ireland Under the Union 1801 to 1922, Methuen & Co. Ltd, London, Pg.669

References, not opinion. --Domer48 (talk) 17:26, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

As I said, Hobson, while not a historian, was a primary source for the formation as the Volunteers, being one of the main people involved. Kathleen Clarke, a primary source on certain things, had no direct involvment to the Volunteers (nor did her husband, really). P.S. O'Hegarty (who, if memory serves, was on the Supreme Council of the IRB at the time) is a good source on the period to be sure, says basically what I've been saying, that the IRB played a substantial role in the creation but it was carried out by MacNeill and "other constitutionalists" as well as IRB members.
Kathleen Clarke does downplay Hobson's role in the quote above by basically implying that his contribution was equal to MacDermott's, when Hobson's role was substantially greater (I don't think anyone denies this, even Kathleen does not directly do so). And when the The Ulster Volunteers were formed in early 1912, and the Irish Volunteers in late 1913, how is one "immediately" following the other? What references do you have that establish this "immediate" formation? Also "instigated the formation of the Volunteers" is not the same as "creating" the Volunteers, which is what the article says. I wouldn't really have a problem with the former phrasing. Saying any one person or entity "created" the Volunteers is an over-simplification. Detailed accounts of the formation of the Volunteers give a better account than Kathleen Clarke's single statement that "Seán MacDermott and Bulmer Hobson did most of the work", without giving any further details. -R. fiend (talk) 18:28, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

I’m not going to play word games with you. You don’t like the word “created,” snap neither do I, but that was the word that was used by the source. Since you have no problem with the word “instigated” I can live with that, as it dose not alter the context of the sources which would be original research. --Domer48 (talk) 19:11, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Except that R. fiend and I have already agreed a wording that is in accordance with the sources - Hobson as well as Clarke, is NPOV and essentially says what you are trying to say anyway. I am adding that wording now. Scolaire (talk) 19:35, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Except that is not what the sources say, Hobson as well as Clarke were IRB. As to R. fiend "The 2 main people responsible (MacNeill and O'Rahilly) were never even members." What I have put there reflects exactly what the sources say:
  • "in October 1913, a meeting to which MacNeill was invited was held in Wynne's Hotel Dublin, at the instigation of the IRB...the IRB men kept themselves in the background." Tim Pat Coogan, 1916: Easter Rising, pg. 50
  • "The IRB seized its chance to capitalise on this sense of identity when Eoin MacNeill, vice-president of the Gaelic League, wrote an article in the organ of the Gaelic League, An Cliadheamh Soluis, in October 1913, proposing that a body of Southern Volunteers be established on the same line as the Ulster Volunteers. Using the respected name of MacNeill as a front, the IRB organised a meeting to which all parties were invited, at the Rotunda Hall, Dublin, on November 25." (The IRA, Tim Pat Coogan, 1970, page 33)
  • "The Ulster Volunteers were then established by Carson to resist Home Rule. This gave the IRB the chance they had been hoping for, and they immediately set to work to establish the Irish Volunteers…Seán MacDermott and Bulmer Hobson did most of the work; Tom dared not show his nose in that, for to do so would make the British suspicious of it, but it was all done in collaboration with Tom behind the scenes." (Revolutionary Woman, Kathleen Clarke, 1991, page 44)

I'm not going to quote the entire page, but she goes on to say that the IRB decided who should be proposed to the Provisional Executive, that they should represent every section of the community, but that they should not include anybody who was identified with the revolutionary element. Hobson went against that decision by accepting the position of Secretary, and Clarke was shaken by that (the rift between the two men came later). She concludes: "Let me explain that these precautions and safeguards were with the object of not arousing British suspicions about the real object of the Irish Volunteers; they really were intended to be the open arm of the IRB." And from the same book:

  • "Uncle John would have liked to keep us in Limerick , but from the point of view of the work Tom intended doing, to prepare the country to take advantage of the coming war, Dublin was best suited." (page 36)
  • “They dared not move themselves. Any move by known physical force men in the direction of a Volunteer Force would be certain to be stopped notwithstanding the precedent established by Carson, and the I.R.B. therefore confined itself to encouraging the expression of the opinion that we, too, ought to organise a Volunteer Force for the defence of Ireland. As the Ulster move developed this opinion was given expression to by many people of unexceptionable “constitutional” charter by followers of the Irish Parliamentary Party, and by followers of no party, who saw in the Ulster move a threat to Home Rule. From July, 1913, a small Committee met regularly in Dublin and watched the growth of opinion, refraining from taking any action until the Ulster precedent should have been solidly established, and hoping for a lead from some “constitutional” quarter. The lead came fro Eoin McNeill, Professor of Early Irish History in University College, Dublin, without political affiliation of any kind, Vice-President of the Gaelic League, who wrote an article in the League paper advocating the formation of an Irish Volunteer Force. McNeill was interviewed and agreed to take a part in the formation of such a force, other constitutionalists of the same mind appeared, and eventually a Provisional Committee for the establishment of a Volunteer Force met at the end October.” P. S. O'Hegarty, A History of Ireland Under the Union 1801 to 1922, Methuen & Co. Ltd, London, Pg.669
  • It has been argued that the Rising was a coup de main by the IRB on the unsuspecting Volunteers, especially in Headquarters. That ignores the fact that the Volunteers, to begin with, were the creation of the IRB with the intention of using them for precisely this purpose. The Rising was planned by the Military Council in the closest secrecy, unknown even to Volunteer officers often sharing HQ duties, responsibilities and directorates with them." Eoin Neeson, Myths from Easter 1916, Aubane Historical Society, Cork, 2007, ISBN 978 1 903497 34 0 Pg.81
  • would certainly read from that that the IRB were behind the formation of the Volunteers, and that MacNeill was a figurehead. Scolaire (talk) 18:36, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
So from the sources provided, the IRB were the ones who instigated the formation of the Volunteers. And "McNeill was interviewed and agreed to take a part in the formation of such a force." The wording reflects what these sources say, to attempt to change the context is not going to run. --Domer48 (talk) 20:02, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Domer, I'm sorry, you have done some excellent editing on this article, but this dog in the manger attitude is spoiling it. It's silly and tiresome. There's more to editing Misplaced Pages than shouting "verifiability", "reliable sources" and "original research" like the Queen of Hearts shouting "off with his head!" The next time you do an edit, read what it says at the bottom of the page: "If you don't want your writing to be edited mercilessly … do not submit it. I wouldn't mind if this tirade was directed against some rabidly anti-republican editors, rather than two like-minded people who have spent the last 24 hours looking for an acceptable and NPOV wording. Now, R. fiend has referenced two sources, I have referenced two and you have referenced two. All six agree that the IRB was involved in the formation of the Volunteers (some say they were the prime movers, others differ), all agree that the IRB were aware the force could be used for armed insurrection, and at least some say that an imminent war would provide the opportunity. Therefore all of these facts are verifiable against said reliable sources and are not original research. Now why don't you go and have a cup of tea and then think about how you can usefully edit this article. Scolaire (talk) 20:19, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for that Scolaire (talk), but WP:V, WP:RS, and WP:OR is what makes wiki work, so I'll stick with what I'm doing. But do you know what is really funny! As soon as I start to reference an article, suddenly editors pop out of the wood work and start to challange! Nothing wrong with that in and of itself, but they ignore all the unreferenced stuff! Now from experiance, my reaction to BS, is to just continue editing! So why don't you get R. fiend to put down the quotes, minus the commentary and I'm more than willing to work it in. What I will not do, is play BS word games. The best thing for an article is to have editors with opposing views to work through it together, but not the patent nonsense that is evident to date! I’ll just ignore the barbed comments, I see myself above that petty point scoring. --Domer48 (talk) 20:37, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
Let me repeat what I said above: you have done some excellent editing on this article. There is a great deal of BS in it, a lot of unreferenced stuff, and you have been working your way through it. I'm not about to start on it - I said I would do it months ago and never did, so I trust you to do it now. That's on the level, no point scoring. I admit I was annoyed when I wrote the last post. That was because you thanked me for providing sources, then turned around and accused me of original research and ignoring the sources, using my own quotes to attack me with. That is not on. In plain English, that is bullying. You say "the best thing for an article is to have editors with opposing views to work through it together", but you shout down R. fiend and refuse to accept anything but a one-word amendment to your text. That is not on. That is bullying. Now, I'm asking you, please stop this behaviour over something that does not even change the tone or import of the article, and start working with people who, like you, want to improve this article. Scolaire (talk) 21:03, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
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