Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 01:31, 17 September 2007

The project page associated with this discussion page is an official policy on Misplaced Pages. It has wide acceptance among editors and is considered a standard that all users should follow. Before you update the page, make sure that changes you make to this policy really do reflect consensus.

To discuss issues with specific biograpies or personal mentions, please use the Misplaced Pages:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard.

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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Biographies of living persons page.

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External links

Regarding the desire "to amend the page in reference to external links"

Selective deletions and the GFDL

Reality TV star noteability guidelines

Okay, here's a stumper

Cover the event not the person

"obscure" removal

Current edit warring on this policy project page

Protected for 48 hours

• I have protected the page for 48 hours. There have been 8 reverts in the past 5 hours, including five in the past hour. Please work out any disagreements on the talk page. — Black Falcon 21:28, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

WP:BLP#Reliable sources policy section itself

Unprotection (immediate edit) request

The matter of external links

. Thank you. --NYScholar 22:15, 2 September 2007 (UTC)]

Bold font

I added some bold font in the policy page, thinking that I had seen it in earlier versions and that it had been inadvertently omitted in people's revisions. But, having checked the editing history over parts of July/August, I don't find it in earlier versions; e.g., 15059912. It apears that heavy editing and some edit warring perhaps was going on in the period of July to August 2007 (and post-August 12). Nevertheless, I think the bold print is helpful (given the bold print in the next paragraph and earlier). I think it is a typographical improvement. I hope that no one objects to my adding it. --NYScholar 00:36, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

At some point we will copy-edit this page and likely make the format consistent, work on section headings, and get rid of all markup used for emphasis. Project-wide, using markup for emphasis of policy statements is unhelpful. But for now I'm not even thinking about these kinds of stylistic issues. Wikidemo 03:55, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

What about italics instead of bold print (when the time comes)? --NYScholar 04:54, 9 September 2007 (UTC) I changed the bold that is inconsistent with Misplaced Pages Style Manual italics. --NYScholar 05:00, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Oh, it's not that important but I think it's mainly a question of legibility. There's a guideline page somewhere that urges people to use as little markup as possible and to keep any markup use consistent. That goes for italics, offsets, bold, putting things in boxes, etc. True, it calls it out to people, but it doesn't explain to the reader why that one sentence is being emphasized over the others. Is it extra important or just too easy to ignore/overlook? Better to get it recognized through strong wording or simply trust the reader to follow all of the policies. You can also turn some things into a bullet point / numbered list, and/or move the most important items up to the front. Wikidemo 07:48, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Sexual preference

Hi. I'm wondering if it would be appropriate to add a 4.7, Privacy of sexual preferences, incorporating some of the language of the category rules, something along the lines of (abbreviated suggestion further down, in bold):

This question is inspired by recent conversations at the BLP noticeboard--should Clay Aiken be identified as gay? Should Tim LaHaye's son be identified as gay? As Steve Dufour points out, this is an issue frequently reported at that noticeboard. The language I've used may be problematic, though, because sometimes sexual preference may not be self-professed, yet still unquestioned. Matthew Shepard's sexual preference is highly relevant to his notability. If Mathew's mother were to spearhead a foundation in his honor, mention of her son's sexual preference would certainly be relevant, if not self-identified. I am very open to input on the suggested change and the wording. :) --Moonriddengirl 15:17, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

It would be most helpful to have some guidelines on this. Material relating to Aiken's sexual preference (his response to continual gossip and innuendo) was deleted from his bio months ago by neutral, uninvolved editors on the basis of BLP, but now other editors are determined to return it. They make some valid arguments, but arguments that are just as valid about privacy, "Misplaced Pages is not a tabloid," and the like are not being heard or respected. -Jmh123 16:29, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Way to long to be included so no.Geni 18:20, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

It can be edited down. :) Do you object to the principle or just the length?--Moonriddengirl 18:24, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

sexual preferences CATs are already mentioned. Sexual preferences mentions in articles should follow the normal standards. I would tend to view any specific mention as bloat.Geni 18:37, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Respectfully, I disagree. The CAT standard specifies that its purpose is because "Category names do not carry disclaimers or modifiers." It could easily be argued from that that a disclaimer or modifier excuses speculation in articles as long as an assertion of sexual preference is sourced. As I mentioned, we see a lot of this kind of thing over at the BLP noticeboard. Even if the language were reduced quite extensively it might still be useful; for example, "Information regarding sexual preference of the subject or the subject's associates should not be included unless the sexual preference is relevant to the subject's notable activities or public life and is well documented by reliable published sources." I do think some expansion would be useful in keeping down speculation about the Clay Aikens and Tim LaHaye Jrs of the world. In the alternative, if the Category rule is meant to also apply to articles, that needs to be specified in the policy. --Moonriddengirl 18:54, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Covered under "editors should exercise restraint and include only material relevant to their notability" and all the stuff already on the page about RS.Geni 18:59, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Also note that the Clay Aiken article is currently the subject of an RfC. The real topic is NOT his sexuality, but reliable third party sources that document the notability of the questions about it. Subtle but important distinction. So far, every uninvolved commenting editor has been in favor of including the material. See forum shopping. Pairadox 19:37, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

I mentioned on the BLP noticeboard here that there was an RfC as the disputed material was originally removed under BLP. I did so at 16:22, 8 September 2007 yesterday. At the time there were two responses to the RfC--check the timestamps. My comment there did not suggest what the correct response should be. My comment here states that there are valid arguments on both sides of the question. -Jmh123 20:08, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

I asked a similar question of Misplaced Pages:WikiProject LGBT studies, in reference to whether celebrity chef Jeremiah Tower should be attached to their project or on their list of gay people. They said sure, the more the merrier. He makes no secret of being gay and clearly does not consider the matter scandalous or derogatory...well, a little scandalous in the sense that he writes salacious details of who he slept with in his own biography. In fact, he's such a controversial figure in the food world that it takes a lot of effort to get a sober, dignified BLP article. As important as his sexuality is to his personal life and perhaps his career it has nothing to do with his notability or abilities as a chef, so there is simply no point mentioning it in the article. However, it's only fair for the LGBT project to claim him as one of their own for purposes of a list of notable gay people. Not sure how the two intersect. There's a similar issue with well-known Jews, or Muslims, or Polish Americans, and with some of the location-based wikiprojects. Some people who happen to live in a particular city but whose notability is not at all connected to where they live get listed in the wikiproject or category for their home city, but it's not significant enough to put in the article. Why should sexual preference be a matter of "restraint" if birthplace or religion is not? It sounds like we may be enforcing some kind of a bias here. The obvious difference has to do with societal attitudes towards sexual preference, as opposed to birthplace. Wikidemo 19:55, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

That's a good point, and may make this topic a particularly tricky matter to handle. Perhaps it does relate to the subject's own profession of sexual preference, which is a requirement for the use of categories. Rosie O'Donnell rose to fame as a comedienne, but her openness about her sexuality and her involvement in LGBT issues makes her sexual preference suitable for inclusion in her article--in fact, it becomes notable because of her political activism. On the other hand, even if there were a reputable source for Clay Aikens' sexual preference, he apparently prefers not to have the matter discussed. And assignment of sexual preference is not necessarily only about straight/gay ideation. One of the other examples I had in mind (but did not use because even using it violates BLP) is a comedian who was arrested on charges of possessing child pornography. The incident, and his statements about it, are included in his article, but there's no assertion made there that he is a pedophile. This is why in my expanded proposal I mentioned that behavior may be reported on, but that conclusions cannot be drawn about it. (Another example: one of the recent disputes brought to BLP:Noticeboard concerned Larry Craig and his recent arrest. Clearly, mention of the incident is acceptable. Speculation about Craig's sexual preferences is not.) I wonder if it would be less of a bias issue to mimic the category language almost completely: "Identification of a living person's religious beliefs and sexual preference should be avoided unless the subject self-identifies with the belief or preference in question in a reliable published source." --Moonriddengirl 20:19, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree that it doesn't make sense to pick out individual characteristics for special treatment. We could easily create a list of forbidden topics - orientation, religion, medical issues, political stances, ethnicity, use of hair coloring, name of spouse, birthplace, etc. The standards of verifiability and no original research are our core guides. We should be very hesitant to censor information. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 20:21, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Sexuality and religion are already set aside for special treatment in categories. I'm not sure why specific mention of them in policy with regards to articles is any more restrictive than that. I'm not advocating suppressing information and recognize that this problem would virtually disappear if editors stuck to sound sources. But in the spirit of BLP, we are urged to write "conservatively" and with respect for individual privacy. Currently, sexual orientation is regarded by many as a private matter. I believe that its frequent use in articles as "sensationalist" material does warrant special notice. Note that hair color is unlikely to be mentioned in a libel suit (And also this and this, but apparently it's okay in Massachussetts.) --Moonriddengirl 20:38, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

(Response to Moonriddengirl question at top)Notability and verifiability. Has their sexual (porported) preferences informed or otherwise effected their life, and is there reliable third party sources for it? If the answers to both are yes, then it is both relevant and allowable under WP:BLP. Otherwise, no. LessHeard vanU 20:45, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

I would also add that we need a self-declaration of such sexual preference in BLPs. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:50, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Part of the problem is in interperting notability and the clouding of reliable third party sources. Speculation by gossip bloggers and tabloids that is commented on by reliable sources should not be used to validate the speculation. Maria202 20:58, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

What do we mean by "self-identify". If we accept "I am a Baptist" would we accept "I am not a Baptist"? How about "I won't talk about my faith except to say that I'm not a Baptist"? There's a difference between Misplaced Pages saying, "Person X is a Baptist", and saying "Person X has talked about his Baptist experience." Would we forbid any mention of a subject's comments on religion if he hasn't made some positive affirmation of his specific religous affiliation? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 20:58, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

We do? How does that square with people who have had their lives, etc. effected by untrue (unproven, even) allegations regarding sexual preferences? If someone identifies as enjoying BDSM then, yes, we had best find a link quoting them. If someone has had their career effected by being alleged to have partaken in BDSM activities then you will not find a self-declaration, but it is relevant and may be referenced. LessHeard vanU 21:07, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, that's why I specified in my first suggestion (which one editor may rightly feel is too long) "Sexual behavior may be notable and reported without speculation about preference. (Example, it may be reported that a pop star has been convicted of sexual activity with a minor, but that pop star may not be labeled a "pedophile".)" It's all right to note that Larry Craig pleaded guilty to soliciting in a men's room, but we can't assert that he is gay. Similarly, it may very well be okay to say "New York Times questioned Pop Singer X about persistent rumors of homosexuality in July 2020. Pop Singer X stated firmly that he prefers not to publicly discuss his sexuality" as long as weight considerations are kept in mind.--Moonriddengirl 21:13, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm broadly in agreement, although with the last example it should be understood that there must have been a material change in the (perception) of Pop Singer X's career or personal life following the NYT interview, otherwise it is not relevant to the article about PSX. That brings me back to my original comment. LessHeard vanU 21:21, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

It's not clear to me how the above point is expressed in the proposed text below. If there is no reliable source regarding X's orientation, no precipitating event (an arrest, e.g.), no declaration of preference, but gossip is sufficiently widespread that the NYT asks about X about sexual preference and X declines to declare an orientation, then the interview itself has made no material change in the perception of X's career or personal life. According to the version below, if I understand it correctly, one could make the argument that the rumors are notable enough that the question was asked, thus the topic is relevant. Do you see the difference? -Jmh123 22:08, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

We should consider a person's sexual preference like the person's address. Misplaced Pages should generally not write about it, except when it has specific notability related to the person. A person's address has specific notability when having famous neighbours, for example. User:Krator (t c) 21:30, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Sexual preference provision suggestion #2

Aiming for brevity and clarity, building on above discussion, 4.7 or some other number, Privacy of sexual preferences, something along the lines of

I'm sure that's still too long. I'm not always good at writing brief. :) --Moonriddengirl 21:38, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

It is better to be clear than concise. I would suggest that the last sentence is placed before the example, as it forms part of the advice. Otherwise I think it is a working model. LessHeard vanU 21:44, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

So rearranged. :) --Moonriddengirl 21:49, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

That looks reasonable on the whole, but I don't think "included" is the right word. "Stated" or "asserted" might be better terms. We aren't forbidding inclusion of any discussion of sexual orientation or religious beliefs, just the flat declaration that a subject has a certain orientation or religion unless there's been a statement by the subject on the topic. ·:· Will Beback ·:· —Preceding unsigned comment added by Will Beback (talk • contribs) 22:04, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Seems like a good suggestion to me. --Moonriddengirl 22:07, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

A restateing of what is already on the page. There is simply no point in adding it unless you are trying to make the page so long no one will read it.Geni 03:16, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't see where on the page it says "Sexual preference should not be asserted unless self-professed in a reliable, published source". --Moonriddengirl 12:25, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

I am concerned about how the word "asserted" will be interperted versus using the word "included". Asserted means you can include as long as it's not stated as fact. Include means leave it out unless self-identified. Completely different meanings. Maria202 13:56, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

I thought such a thing is already covered pretty blatantly in the lede.

"Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material — whether negative, positive, or just questionable — about living persons should be removed immediately and without discussion from Misplaced Pages.

"An important rule of thumb when writing biographical material about living persons is "do no harm". Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid; it is not our job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives. Biographies of living persons (BLP) must be written conservatively, with regard for the subject's privacy."

Appears crystal clear to me. I think this policy is already too long. We can't, and shouldn't attempt to, include every possible example. A good rule of thumb is, if the policy already explicitly disallows such things, there's generally little to no need to spell out the specific example. Vassyana 13:58, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Respectfully, I think if policy were crystal clear, there wouldn't be quite so much debate going on here/ :) But I'll add you to the side of thinking it redundant. --Moonriddengirl 14:32, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

The debate "here" probably doesn't concern the exact issue covered by your proposed text. I wouldn't take it as a useful example of the common problem. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 21:23, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Current opinions seem to be

This is growing a bit complicated. :) In an effort to determine if pursuing policy clarification is beneficial, I'm going to try to figure out how much support there is for such a change. In terms of incorporating a policy, we seem to have three completely against (User:Geni, User:Ned Scott), & Vassyana. There are six who seem to believe some kind of guideline is appropriate (User:Maria202, User:Jmh123, User:Jossi, User:Krator, User:Dicklyon, and me. There's two undecided or unconvinced: User:Wikidemo and User:Will Beback. There's one neutral User:LessHeard vanU. There are two on whose positions on including specific reference I'm unclear: User:BCST2001 and User:Aquillion. Obviously, I do believe that inclusion of some specific guideline is relevant. I think the discussion that's been taking place here is evidence in itself that policy is not easily interpreted. (Updated at 17:38 on September 10)--Moonriddengirl 16:21, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Sorry. Add me to the list in favor of including specific reference. You can move this comment somewhere else if I put it in the wrong place. Maria202 13:34, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

No, not at all. :) I just want to be very careful to avoid reading too much into other people's comments, especially when it supports my position. :D --Moonriddengirl 14:29, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm against adding anything because I remain unconvinced that the problem is significant, and also out of concerns that it's biased to single out sexual orientation as a subject that's considered scandalous. There are several more analytic steps we have to take before we should even think about adding a new policy section, even if we decide it is an issue. We have to define the scope of the problem, where it comes from, exactly what mechanism to use to prevent it, and whether any proposed prohibition against something would over-exclude valid information. I also caution if the intent is to gauge where the majority opinion lies, votes and polls aren't a good way to make policy, and that refactoring the comments of people who aren't even aware they would be taken as a vote is particularly unreliable. Inasmuch as this is a policy page, we have to be cautious and make sure there is wide consensus on a point not just here but other places that might be affected (e.g. the sexuality and LGBT wikiprojects). miWikidemo 15:49, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

I did publicize this discussion at Village Pump in the hopes of broadcasting the issue to others in the community. I'm all for making sure that everybody who might have an interest is involved. And my intention with the above is not to conclude with an "Okay, 10 for; 8 against. Let's go!" :) I am trying to determine if there is sufficient support for clarification to proceed with the discussion and clarify what objections there are and how they might be addressed. The conversation has grown a little sprawling, and I'm hoping to regain some focus on the original question of whether or not a policy clarification is appropriate. The chaotic nature of internet discussions makes it difficult to maintain focus. (Or at least that was my experience on On list guidelines, which eventually just trailed away.) I had not intended to "refactor" the page as I understand the term, as the original content is all still right here. But as you seem to think the way I've presented it may be confusing or objectionable, and that's not what I'm after, I'll gladly restructure it. --Moonriddengirl 16:21, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Okay, thanks for the clarification. In that context I think the discussion to date reveals that it's worth taking the proposal seriously, and depending on where that goes I'm not averse to putting something in the policy page once discussion has run its course. So you can properly call me cautious and undecided, not against it. Wikidemo 16:28, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

So noted. Thanks for clarifying your position. --Moonriddengirl 16:33, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

My view is that the language proposed reflects current practice and so it may not be necessary to include it in the policy. The need for it could be established by reviewing actual instances in which editors were unable to agree on whether to make a declaration about the sexual orientation of a subject. If we decide we need to make a policy addition I'd like to see it expanded to include religion, a topic that generates at least as much controversy as sexual orientation, and which likewise depends ultimately on self-identification by the subject. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 21:11, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

I have no opinion on whether there should be such a wording, I am helping with the language and clarity. I am willing to go with the consensus, and ensure the wording is as clear as possible meanwhile. LessHeard vanU 21:29, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Thank you both for clarifying your positions. --Moonriddengirl 21:39, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Is this a real issue?

Is unwarranted speculation and identification of people's sexual preference a significant problem here on Misplaced Pages? To avoid rule creep I would hold the line on proposals to add things in BLP that are not real, widespread issues that existing policy is inadequate to handle. Wikidemo 22:20, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, persistently in a number of bios I am familiar with. Ricky Martin, Oprah Winfrey, Anderson Cooper, Clay Aiken, John Travolta, Richard Gere, Tom Cruise, Jodie Foster, Queen Latifah, there's just a few. -Jmh123 22:26, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Except for random editors adding "he's gay"-type text, I don't think we've made assertions about the sexual orientations of those people. Am I wrong? Does Misplaced Pages go beyond the subjects' own statements in any of those articles? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:10, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Speculation gets dragged in a lot. Tabloids and gossip bloggers are constantly creating "controversary" and "notability" which when picked up by legitimate media sources is used to circumvent the BLP by some editors. Maria202 23:35, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Poorly sourced derogatory information is already prohibited by the policy. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:43, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

This is absolutely true, of course, but as being gay is not inherently derogatory (though I presume we all recognize that in western society it can be very damaging in certain professions...say fundamentalist ministry) the provision that reads "if derogatory, should not be used at all" may not be sufficient for covering this situation. That leaves "should be handled with caution", which may not be strong enough, since definitions of caution may vary widely. I myself have most recently encountered the situation in Talk:Tim_LaHaye#Gay_Son. In that argument, the editor who wished to insert the claim that LaHaye's son was gay was eventually convinced that the source was insufficient. If self-identification were a required criteria, it would have been a much simpler matter to defuse. --Moonriddengirl 23:53, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Actually, the policy calls for all unsourced or poorly sourced contentious information to be removed, whether positive or negative. In the LaHay case it appears that poor sources were being advanced as reliable. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 00:47, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

The problem is caused by a lack of understanding or care about the notability requirements under WP:BLP. Editors who for one reason or another have an interest in including material about the sexuality of a biographical subject come up with any justification they can to say the material is notable. They may argue, for instance, that people are "interested" in whether somebody is gay or straight, that it is a matter of great importance to fans of the subject, that Person X + gay comes up with 8 billion Google hits, etc. What these editors fail to grasp is that such arguments completely fail to establish the notability of the sexuality of the subject. But because they stick to such arguments, they then proclaim that if they can find a source for such material, then it must surely be included as sourced and notable. In short, the problem exists, and is caused by poor comprehension and enforcement of WP:BLP. Whether this lack of comprehension and enforcement can be remedied in such instances by specific mention in policy of the issue of sexuality is a legitimate question. BCST2001 00:54, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

I suppose the notability requirement WP:BLP for a puiblic figure is this line:

• If an allegation or incident is notable, relevant, and well-documented by reliable published sources, it belongs in the article — even if it's negative and the subject dislikes all mention of it.

If something has been noted repeatedly in the mainstream media that is a good indication of its notability. Does that standard need to be changed? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 01:00, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

I thought that's what the whole "controversy regarding sexual preference" bit was meant to cover. :) It's one thing for an article to say, "Allegations have been made in this&that reputable source that soandso is gay" and another to say "soandso is gay." --Moonriddengirl 01:08, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Will Beback, the line you quote does not establish the standard for notability; rather, it simply presumes and refers to that standard. This is the whole problem. People in fact ignore what the standard of notability is, and proceed directly to the question of whether it has been noted in the media. Whether something appears in the media and whether it is notable in terms of Misplaced Pages and WP:BLP are two different questions. Notability has to mean, according to WP:BLP, notability in relation to the subject of the entry. Where the material is contentious, controversial, or insensitive, the notability criterion becomes crucial. If the material does not directly concern the reasons for the notability of the subject, and the material is contentious, controversial, or insensitive, it should be excluded. That is why there are two different examples given: one concerns a politician and one concerns a messy divorce. In the case of a politician, the reasons for their notability (running for public office) mean that sexual scandal may indeed need to be included in the article. In the case of many (indeed most) other biographical entries, details of messy divorcees, sexual scandals, or speculation or innuendo about sexual orientation are simply not notable, may often be contentious or insensitive, and thus must, most of the time, be excluded. This is what editors fail to understand or enforce, but policy on the matter is in fact quite clear. BCST2001 01:09, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Could you be so good as to quote the notability standard you're referring to? I don't see the text you're talking about. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 01:11, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Do you mean the text from this example (which talks about "importance" rather than "notability")?

• Is it important to the article, and has it been published by third-party reliable sources? If not, leave it out.

Obviously if the material doesn't come from a reliable source we shouldn't use it. The matter of "importance" is harder to judge, but again we should reluy on third-party sources to guide us. If something has been mentioned often in mainstream media sourcees it may be presumed to be important. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 01:18, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

This seems like instructions creep to me as well. Including or excluding sexual preference doesn't seem like an issue. If the information is private, without proper sources, and isn't relevant, then it's unlikely that we'll desire to include it. If someone comes along and tries to use this information as an attack or as vandalism, we can remove it simply for being an attack. -- Ned Scott 04:12, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Contentious material must be directly relevant to the notability of the subject

Will Beback, the most relevant parts of WP:BLP are the following (I have placed some of the most important parts in bold type for your benefit):

• Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid; it is not our job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives. Biographies of living persons (BLP) must be written conservatively, with regard for the subject's privacy.

• The burden of evidence for any edit on Misplaced Pages, but especially for edits about living persons, rests firmly on the shoulders of the person who adds or restores the material.

• Biographies of living people should be written responsibly, conservatively, and in a neutral, encyclopedic tone.

• Biographies of living persons should not have trivia sections. Instead, relevant sourced claims should be woven into the article.

• Editors should also be on the lookout for biased or malicious content about living persons. If someone appears to be pushing an agenda or a biased point of view, insist on reliable third-party published sources and a clear demonstration of relevance to the person's notability.

• Editors should avoid repeating gossip. Ask yourself whether the source is reliable; whether the material is being presented as true; and whether, even if true, it is relevant to an encyclopedia article about the subject.

• Editors should also be careful of a feedback loop in which an unsourced and speculative contention in a Misplaced Pages article gets picked up, with or without attribution, in an otherwise-reliable newspaper or other media story, and that story is then cited in the Misplaced Pages article to support the original speculative contention.

• Editors should remove any contentious material about living persons that is unsourced, relies upon sources that do not meet standards specified in Misplaced Pages:Verifiability, or is a conjectural interpretation of a source (see Misplaced Pages:No original research). If the material is derogatory and unsourced or poorly sourced, the three-revert rule does not apply to its removal.

• An important rule of thumb when writing biographical material about living persons is "do no harm". Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid, and as such it is not our job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives. BLPs must be written conservatively, with regard for the subject's privacy.

Please note especially the line requiring "a clear demonstration of relevance to the person's notability." This is specifically state that contentious material must be clearly demonstrated to be relevant to the person's notability, that is, it cannot simply be incidental to that notability. Without that clear demonstration it must be excluded. Thus, as I have stated, in most cases the sexuality of a person is not relevant to their notability (politicians being a notable exception to this). But this one line should not be looked at in isolation either. The entirety of the section I have cited must be considered as a whole, as well as the entire rationale for WP:BLP. It is the precise goal of WP:BLP as a whole to make possible this kind of exclusion. BCST2001 01:27, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Are we still talking about user:Moonriddengirl's proposed text? Apparently not. I think we're talking about the Clay Aiken now. Let's look at the text you quote, in context:

• Content should be sourced to reliable sources and should be about the subject of the article specifically. Beware of claims that rely on guilt by association. Editors should also be on the lookout for biased or malicious content about living persons. If someone appears to be pushing an agenda or a biased point of view, insist on reliable third-party published sources and a clear demonstration of relevance to the person's notability.

So we should only include information that is relevant to the subject of the article, obviously. Sexual orientation is indeed relevant to every individual besides children and celibates. The last sentence is problematic: "If someone appears to be pushing an agenda or a biased point of view, insist on reliable third-party published sources and a clear demonstration of relevance to the person's notability." This appears to be based on a determination of an editors apparent aims, which may not be a helpful editing criteria. Finally, how can we demonstrate relevance to a person's notability? Take the example of a pop singer. Is his religious faith relevant to his notability? Is his choice of charities? Is his birthplace? His year of birth? If we take that line seriously most of the mundane biographical information would be removed and we'd be left with the singer's discography and media appearances. We could simply replace the article with a link to the subject's website. I think we should try to clarify that language in the policy to avoid reaching an absurd conclusion ·:· Will Beback ·:· 01:43, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Will Beback, the point is not that somebody's birthday or religion must be proven to be relevant to the reasons for their notability. The point is that contentious, controversial, and insensitive material must be relevant to the reasons for their notability. If that relevance cannot be demonstrated, then contentious, controversial or insensitive material should be excluded. The argument that sexual orientation is "relevant" to the subject is ignoring that what must be demonstrated is that the material must be relevant to the reasons for the subject's notability, not relevant to them personally. Writing conservatively and responsibly means using the judgment required to exclude insensitive or contentious material which is not directly relevant to the subject's notability. I hope this clarifies an important point for you. BCST2001 01:52, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

The policy doesn't say "contentious, controversial, and insensitive material must be relevant to the reasons for their notability". Are you proposing we alter the policy to add that? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 02:01, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

It is very clear to me that that is precisely what policy says, and that there is no other way of understanding what this policy says that makes any sense and retains the rationale for the policy. BCST2001 02:04, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

I think your interpretation of the policy conflicts with its plain language: "If an allegation or incident is notable, relevant, and well-documented by reliable published sources, it belongs in the article — even if it's negative and the subject dislikes all mention of it." ·:· Will Beback ·:· 02:11, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

There is no conflict: the material must be notable. BCST2001 02:17, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Will Beback, the mistake you are making is to fixate on the one part of WP:BLP that you consider favours your wish to include discussion of the sexuality of biographical subjects, but not to pay attention to whatever is problematic to that wish, nor to the totality of WP:BLP as a whole. The policy requirement to write conservatively, sensitively and responsibly means that editors ought not be trying to find whatever wafer thin rationale they can to include something, but need to really reflect on whether Misplaced Pages and the biographical subject are served by inclusion of contentious material or not. Furthermore, the policy clearly and explicitly states that material must be relevant to the notability of the subject. Wherever that is not clear, material should be excluded. Editors who refuse to acknowledge that sexuality is a sensitive and frequently contentious issue for editors and subjects ought to refrain from editing biographical entries. BCST2001 02:30, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

"Relevant to the notability of the subject" would typically exclude birthplace, ethnicity, religion, family, education and other biographical details. We should avoid over-using that criteria. Certainly Misplaced Pages editorrs need to make sure that material in biographies of lviing people is sourced only to relaible sources, that it svoids speculation, and that it be worded sensitively. However we should not exclude well-sourced information about a subject that's presented in a neutral manner just because a subject has said that he finds the topic upsetting. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 02:43, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

You say it would "typically exclude" those things. I don't see why, as those things typically aren't contentious. If they are contentious in some specific case, then obviously the question is why, and whether that is legitimate. It seems to me like you are broadening out from the specific question of whether sexuality is frequently contentious or sensitive, saying it must include all these other things, in order then really to legitimate including sexual material, without acknowledging the obvious fact: that one's sexuality is, usually, a private, personal, sensitive matter, the inclusion of which is likely to be contentous or controversial. Responsible, conservative, sensitive editing of biographical articles ought to acknowledge that obvious reality. BCST2001 03:00, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Let's look at the example of Larry Craig. He is notable for being a U.S. Senator. He was arrested and pleaded guilty to disturbing the peace. The media speculated that he had attempted to solicit gay sex. He made an announcement that included the statement, "I'm not gay". He has complained about being harassed by the media over the allegations, and I believe he's asked for his privacy. The entire issue is contentious. Under your interpretation of BLP, if I understand correctly, we would not be able to include even Craig's own statements denying the rumors. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 05:08, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

If you re-read what I have written, you will see that I mention several times that sexual scandals may well be notable in the case of politicians. (For example, here and here.)This is because according to the community sexual morality is a legitimate political issue for voters, and this is why the specific example about a politician is included in WP:BLP, indicating that inclusion of such material may be necessary. But it is not possible to generalize from the case of politicians to other "celebrities." This is a very instructive example: sexual material is indicated as potentially notable in relation to politicians, precisely in order to differentiate it from the other example concerning the messy divorce. Please re-read what I have written with greater care. BCST2001 05:14, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

I didn't realize that the community BLP had added a special, secret exemption for politicians. If that's the case I think we need to make it explicit. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 05:27, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Lets say that event never happened. If we said he had a wife or a girlfriend, wouldn't we still be indicating his sexual preference? -- Ned Scott 05:26, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

There is nothing secret about it, and it is already explicit. It is simply the case that, as everyone knows, sexual scandal enveloping politicians is considered notable by a sizeable portion of the community, for better or worse. And, for better or worse, Misplaced Pages reflects that. The exception is made on the grounds that voters have the right to such knowledge when casting their ballot. It does not need to be any more specific than that, because if there is a case of a non-politician to whom the same logic might be thought to apply, the Misplaced Pages community can make the decision about whether in fact they should be treated according to the logic of the first example (the politician) or the second example (the messy divorce). But mostly it will be the second. As is most often the case, existing Misplaced Pages policy makes sense if you bother to read it and think about it. BCST2001 05:35, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Let's leave the snide remarks out of it. The only mention of politicians is an example, which I don't think anyone would suggest actually creates a special case for politicians. If we take the viewpoint of the majority as our guide on how to weight issues then we should note that a sizeable portions of the world community, the news media community, and the Misplaced Pages community find the personal lives of celebrities to be notable. That is one of the characteristics which defines "celebrity". Unverifiable rumors and poorly-sourced gossip don't belong, of course. But verifiable incidents and statements from public figures that've been widely reported in reliable sources do belong. An arrest for a misdemeanor is not notable for a minor figure, but for a celebrity it is. We should report on Mel Bibson's drunken rant, but not that of a college professor. Why? Because one of them is a widely reported and verifiable incident involving a public figure and the other one isn't. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 06:26, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

You are correct about Mel Gibson versus a college professor. You are incorrect in your understanding of the significance of the two examples concerning the politician and the messy divorce. You are most certainly plain wrong if you believe that sexuality is not a private, personal and sensitive issue that should be avoided where contentious, and unless it is "clearly relevant to the notability of the person." BCST2001 07:49, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

But what does "clearly relevant to the notability of the person" mean? If you are arguing that a politician's messy divorce is relevent because it significantly impacts his political prospects, you cannot then argue that a celeberity's messy divorce is never relevant to their notability. A singer's messy divorce can impact their public image and prospects as a singer just plainly as a senator's can influence their prospects as a senator; an author's sexuality can, for the better or worse, influence public perception of them and whatever they write. Do you dispute these things? What makes a sexual scandal involving a senator, for instance, more worth covering than a sexual scandal involving an actor? Both will dramatically impact their careers, the "source of their notability". My feeling is that there is no way that this can be settled completely by the rule written into BLP, and that any guidelines are going to be insufficient. The only way to know whether a particular nasty tidbit genuinely belongs in an article is to look at the article itself. --Aquillion 08:10, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Aquillion, you are completely correct in your argument that the only way to know what belongs and what does not is by examining each case. In other words, WP:BLP does not eliminate the need for judgment. I completely agree with you, and I don't believe I have argued anything other than that. But even so, WP:BLP gives very important guidance about how to make those judgments, and the two examples are a very important part of that guidance. You are correct that it is feasible that there will be some case where the details of a messy divorce are relevant to a biographical entry about a singer. But on the other hand, this possibility should not diminish awareness of what, in general, the difference between a politician and a singer is: a politician is an figure seeking our approval to control our government. That is the basis on which the community judges, for better or worse, that sexual and other personal morality may be relevant to their being a politician. This argument does not in general hold for singers, and sexual morality is not in general relevant to their notability, even if there are many people who are interested in the sexuality or sexual morality of some particular singer. I would put it like this: in cases where a politician is caught in a sexual scandal, it is crucially important that Misplaced Pages get its coverage right; in cases where the sexuality of some pop singer is raised as though it is notable, it is crucially important not to presume that the material is notable, nor to find this or that pretext to justify including material which is really only of prurient or other tabloid-type (that is, non-encyclopaedic) interest. But, again, none of that is to deny that examination of the particular case and the use of judgment is not also crucial. The form this takes in WP:BLP cases is that a consensus of community opinion must be found to include contentious material before it can be included, and the burden of proof to establish notablity lies with the editor wishing to include or restore material. And notability must be established in relation to the notability of the subject. BCST2001 08:23, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

I am reading all he above debate and cannot make heads or tails from it. If there is material related to sexual orientation in a BLP that is either self-declared, or described in verifiable sources and notable, what would exempt us from describing it in an article? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 14:38, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

My point is that what matters is the understanding of "notability." In the case of contentious, controversial, sensitive issues, notability does not just mean that it has appeared in the media. Rather, in the case of contentious, controversial, sensitive issues (such as one's sexuality), notability also depends on "a clear demonstration of relevance to the person's notability." This is the meaning of the example given in WP:BLP of the messy divorce: if it is not relevant to the person's notability, and it is contentious and sensitive information, it should be excluded. It is by ignoring this requirement that editors often attempt to justify inclusion of material which should in fact be excluded. As an example, there is a case at the moment of a pop singer about whom there has been speculation and allegation that they are homosexual. There are no reliable sources for this allegation, which essentially amounts to rumour and gossip. But eventually this singer, when asked directly in an interview about this matter, expressed his displeasure with the rumour and allegation, denied the allegation, and stated he did not intend to answer such questions in the future. So the argument is being put by some editors that because this person stated a denial, therefore the matter is notable and must be included. In fact, however, there is no way to clearly demonstrate the relevance of this material to the person's notability. And this is important for the following reason: in a context where there is absolutely no actual information about the sexuality of this person, and in a context where this person has stated that they and their family are hurt by this kind of rumour and gossip, and in a context where they have stated that their sexuality is a private and not a public matter, to insist on including the denial of homosexuality is in fact to perpetuate the rumour by innuendo. Editors wishing to include such material are failing to grasp the WP:BLP requirements to edit contentious material conservatively, sensitively, and responsibly, but it is also the case that what such editors fail to grasp is the necessity of clearly demonstrating the relevance of the material to the person's notability, that is, to the reasons that the biographical subject is a notable figure. By ignoring this aspect of WP:BLP, they in fact undermine the entire purpose of this policy. BCST2001 17:19, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

The pop singer George Michael was arrested in similar circumstances to Larry Craig. Since the singer doesn't get the asserted politician exemption, should we expunge all of his comments about his sexuality from his article? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 18:19, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

What made that event notable was the arrest and subsequent massive attention from the media. Speculation or rumour about his sexuality would not have been notable, but once it became a massive story through the public act of being arrested, then it is clearly notable. BCST2001 23:10, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

So then we agree that media attention eventually makes something notable. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:16, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Gibson, Michael & Craig were all arrested. It's the arrest that caused the media attention. Maria202 23:24, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Will Beback, rumour, allegation, gossip and innuendo are not notable, and neither is speculation about the sexuality of somebody—even if tabloid newspapers and other low-grade media persist with these things for some time, eventually producing a frustrated response from the subject. This is precisely what WP:BLP is for. If you cannot see the distinction, I am unsure if there is another way to explain it that will make it clearer to you. BCST2001 23:31, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

We're not talking about "rumour, allegation, gossip and innuendo" - we're addressing statements made by the subjects in response to major media attention to an issue. Now you two are saying, if I understand correctly, that we can only print a statement by a public figure (whether politician or celebrity) about his or her sexuality if it is preceded by an arrest. Does that mean the we should redact the statement by T.R. Knight on the topic? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:54, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

If you look back at what has been written, I don't think you will find any statement that says "we can only print a statement by a public figure about his or her sexuality if it is preceded by an arrest." You should really stop attributing positions to people that they have clearly not expressed. You do not understand correctly, and it does seem you are determined not to understand. BCST2001 00:05, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, I'm sure confused. I said: "...we agree that media attention eventually makes something notable" Maria202 replied: "It's the arrest that caused the media attention." Now BCST2001 says there's no requirement for there to be an arrest, presumably meaning that media attention alone is sufficient. So let's get his clear: can we include a statement by a public figure about his sexuality or not? Are media attention and/or an arrest necessary conditions for our quoting a public figure about his sexuality? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 00:22, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Your choice to ignore that you left out the arrests in your statement about notability and that my response was to your comment reminding you that was left out is probably what confused you about what I said. Maria202 00:31, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Huh? I don't understand that comment. Let me repeat the questions: can we include a statement by a public figure about his sexuality or not? Are media attention and/or an arrest necessary conditions for our quoting a public figure about his sexuality? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 00:36, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

I think Maria was confused because you originally attributed BCST2001's statement to her. -Jmh123 00:46, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

It doesn't really matter. What matter to this thread are finding the answers to these two questions: (1) can we include statements by a public figure about his sexuality or not? (2) Are media attention and/or an arrest necessary conditions for our quoting a public figure about his sexuality? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 01:17, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Answer to (1) Yes, if it is a self-statement that is well sourced; (2) No: See (1) as an exception. 01:20, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Will Beback, you are asking for an iron law where none is possible. As has been mentioned, judgment is necessary, but WP:BLP provides very important guidance about how to make that judgment. Every situation is different. For example, when somebody issues a public statement declaring that they are homosexual, that is very different from a frustrated objection and denial given in the course of an interview where there is no actual sourced information about the sexuality of the person. In the latter case, insisting on including this material is furthering the rumour, perpetuating innuendo, and doing harm. If you cannot grasp the difference, then that is your opinion. I think you are wrong, but the point is that it is neither your judgment nor mine that matters, but the judgment of the Misplaced Pages community. If they decide something can be included according to policy, then it can be included. But the burden of proof in WP:BLP cases lies with those wishing to include, and among the things they have to "clearly demonstrate" is the relevance of the material to the notability of the subject. And where there is contention and controversy about whether to include or exclude something, policy dictates editing conservatively, responsibly, and sensitively. That is, where there is no consensus, material such as this should be excluded. I don't think there is any point in my explaining this further. What seems perfectly clear and sensible to me is apparently obscure to you—I'm unsure why that is, but I do believe you need to reflect further on the nature of this policy. BCST2001 01:26, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

In the past I was told that this is simple and obvious. Apparently it isn't so clear that we can find a clear answer to the questions I've asked. Jossi seems to find the answers clear and obvious. We include statements from Larry Craig, a politician who was arrested for disurbing the peace, from George Michaels, a singer who was arrested for lewd exposure, and T.R. Knight, an actor who may have been called a "faggot" by a co-worker. Yet some editors would seek to prohibit the statements by Clay Aiken, a singer who has answered questions by major jouranlists about his sexuality on several occasions. It'd be nice if we could agree on a consistent application of BLP to all of these instances. The fall-back answer is to leave it up to the consensus of editors, but if that's the case then we should acknowledge that the matter isn't siimple, obvious, or clear. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 02:02, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't see that it is preferable to have one answer for all cases. Just because the answer to such problems may not be identical in each case does not mean that policy is not clear or sensible. The cases you are discussing are all different, and in clear ways that can be explained and make a substantial difference to how WP:BLP applies to them. In my opinion WP:BLP makes it clear that the Aiken material you are discussing should be excluded. If there is community consensus to state otherwise, then so be it, but I don't believe that such a consensus will emerge. Leaving it up to the community is not a "fall-back answer"; it is the way Misplaced Pages works. Policy is not there to give iron answers to every question: it provides the framework and relies on and trusts in the judgment of the community. Where the community cannot agree about a WP:BLP issue, policy strongly favours exclusion. BCST2001 02:12, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

On the contrary, that is exactly what our policies do; pages that give rough and approximate answers to guide editors are called guidelines.

If there is no consensus on the subject, as attested by this discussion or by wording on the policy page resulting from discussion, there is no rule. In this case, there is such wording, and I quote: When in doubt, biographies should be pared back to a version that is completely sourced, neutral, and on-topic. Therefore if a version is these three things, it is perfectly acceptable. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:59, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Pmanderson, I did not say that policy gives "rough and approximate answers." I think it is quite clear from what I have written that I think WP:BLP is very important and makes very clear what to do. It just not give an explicit iron ruling about how to handle every single situation. Judgment on the part of the community is still necessary, and this is the very essence of how policy works. Furthermore, the difference between policies and guidelines is not that policies tell you precisely what to do whereas guidelines are rough and approximate. Rather, the difference is that policy must be adhered to, whereas the requirement to follow guidelines is something less than this (recommended, generally a good idea, etc.). Finally, it is remarkable that you cite a part of WP:BLP that is intended to make clear that the article should be reduced to a very bare minimum in cases of intractable controversy, and use that citation to argue that including material is "perfectly acceptable." The line you cite clearly means that controversial material should be excluded until there is consensus to do otherwise. BCST2001 03:09, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

• No, it "clearly means" what it says; no more, no less. If we have cut back so far, then we need (and should) cut back no further; to do so is harm to the encyclopedia.
• So far as I can see, BCST2001 has quoted no word of this policy. I do not see any that suggests or supports the language he has invented.
• I see no editor who agrees with him. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 03:25, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

In fact I quoted policy continuously. I am unclear where it is you disagree with me. BCST2001 06:57, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Ok, here's a much more relevent example. Tom Cruise has been hounded by rumors over his sexuality for much of his career. These rumors have been widely commented on in the press and in numerous other high-profile sources (not merely tabloids); entire episodes of major TV shows have been devoted to it, and he has been engaged in litigation over these rumors on multiple occasions. Would you argue that mention of the rumors and disputes over Cruise's sexuality should be excluded from his article? I think that that case, in particular, was the one on my mind when I objected to your position... I do not think that any policy that would exclude such a widely-known and high-profile part of a public figure's reputation could be excluded. Naturally, rumors that only exist on a few messages boards or a handful of tabloids are not worth reporting... but I think that the wording of the guidelines in that regard is not helpful. Rumors are significant when they are widely-known and widely-covered in reputable press, and not significant otherwise. --Aquillion 23:18, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Aquillion, I agree with you that a reasonable case can be for inclusion of such rumours in the Tom Cruise case. Without wanting to put words in your mouth, I think that the case you are making is more or less that once a certain threshold is reached, a rumour becomes a part of "culture." A fair enough case. But even though I agree that such a case can be made, I am not myself persuaded that such arguments justify inclusion, even in the Tom Cruise example you raise. All the reasons that inclusion of such rumours could be considered a BLP violation still apply, however well known the rumour may be. In the Cruise case, for example, such reasons include the fact that Cruise clearly opposes the spreading of such rumours, thus that in his eyes at least it does harm, hence also that inclusion of such rumours is insensitive, non-conservative, etc. I am not denying that people can reasonably disagree with my position, but in my judgment inclusion of those rumours is unnecessary and unjustified. I just do not see that including such material makes Misplaced Pages a better encyclopedia, and I can see too many ways it pushes Misplaced Pages in the tabloid direction, with all that this implies. To my mind rumours just aren't facts, and unless there is a very good reason to include them, the potential to do harm far outweighs any purported benefit to the encyclopedia project. The fact that rumours may be well known (which, of course, does not mean there is a shred of evidence suggesting they are true) just does not add up to much in my view: without factual content, they are nothing more than nasty gossip about living people. Living people who, truth be told, whether they are rich and famous or poor and obscure, should not be forced to suffer the perpetual inclusion of rumour and gossip on what we are told is one of the top five websites in the world. BCST2001 13:04, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

But let me immediately qualify the above, before somebody else does it for me. I think that the fact that Cruise has initiated litigation several times in relation to this matter changes the issue substantially, because a far stronger case can be made for including discussion of the litigation, which is after all a public act as well as a legal act. But if the litigant in question were only a minor figure, and not the major star that Cruise is, then even in the case of such litigation it would be necessary to weigh up whether such litigation really was notable enough for inclusion. In Cruise's case, I admit, inclusion of mention of his lawsuits is justified. BCST2001 13:17, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Specific article question

(comment/question a specific article, Glenn Greenwald) Given the discussion above (on the sexual preference provision), I was wondering about the specific case of Glenn Greenwald's article. He self-identifies as gay, but it is not pertinent to why he is notable, so I'm inclined to take it out. On the other hand, he is in the LGBT cat., and rightly so, and I don't like the idea of including (someone or something) in a category without something in the article to back it up. So, should it be included now? Is there a different way to do it? And, does the change mentioned above affect this situation? Any thoughts? R. Baley 22:10, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, by proposed suggestion 2, if it were adopted policy, his self-profession should permit inclusion. --Moonriddengirl 22:30, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

We should never place an article in a cat unless it is obvious from the text why it is there. That's WP:CATEGORY; if it doesn't belong in the article, the article doesn't belong in the cat. The subject's beliefs or sexual preferences are relevant to the subject's notable activities or public life, according to reliable published sources. Has any reliable source said that Greenwald's sexual preference has affected his blogging, or even the other way around? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 03:34, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Hi Pmanderson, as far as I know the only mention of his sexuality was a "dust-up" in the blogosphere ("Hey look he's gay! and liberal! of course he doesn't like the bush administration!") I didn't think it was relevant to his

I don't see your problem. Category inclusion cannot be sourced. If the article doesn't source it, take it out of the category. (I have no objection to noting the source, whether his blog or some other, on the talk page, and waiting for developments.) It doesn't matter whether it's true; it doesn't even matter whether it's uncontentious: the threshold for inclusion is Misplaced Pages is verifiability, not truth. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:28, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Inclusion in categories are not excepted from NPOV, V, BLP, and other policies. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 14:30, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Checking the article, however, it is sourced to a statement by Greenwald himself which describes other sources, some of them public documents. The category and the (short and neutral) mention should stay or go together, that's all. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:33, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm not so sure that categories fall under V, RS, and SYNTH. In practice, you'll find vast numbers of category assignments, mostly noncontroversial, that are are not directly supported by material in the text. I don't see what it adds to our encyclopedic mission to either require that we add a sentence describing the sexuality of everyone in the LGBT category (or someone's racial/ethnic/religious affiliation for everyone in those categories), or to do away with those categories.Wikidemo 18:45, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

the policy especially, regarding categorization of religion and sexual preference, really couldn't be clearer. Notmyrealname 16:00, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

As far as this particular article is concerned, he is a very notable blogger on controversial political subjects, and his openness about his sexuality may possibly be considered of relevance. Indeed, he seems to make a political point of it with respect to US law, going by the article. DGG (talk) 17:53, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

(reply to DGG) My memory concerning the relevance of his sexuality is that it became a topic because he was "attacked" (with words, not literally) for being gay and practically a foreigner (spends a lot of time out of the country). That he is gay doesn't really make a difference concerning the arguments which he advances. If he wrote about gay rights, for instance, that might make his sexuality relevant. However, almost the whole of his writing concerns the Iraq war and possible future war with Iran (the media's coverage of the war, the white house's pursuit of it, and the enabling of democratic leadership wrt to white House's pursuit of war). His sexuality is wholly irrelevant to these issues. But on the other hand, it is reliably sourced info that nobody really seems to object to. R. Baley 18:28, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Who is this "us"?

"please alert us on the BLP noticeboard." Who could this "us" be. Can't be the community because it talks about editors who would be part of the community alerting "us". Can't be the foundation because BLP notice board is not an accepted way of contacting the foundation. So who is it?Geni 18:45, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

I think that it just means please let everyone (in the Misplaced Pages community) know ("us" = everyone; many users and editors who are or are not administrators consult the Noticeboard for such "alerts"). At the top of the Noticeboard, there is a reference to "outside intervention": "This noticeboard is for reporting and discussing Biographies of living people policy issues which require outside intervention." The "us" in WP:BLP as quoted appears to be simply a general reference (to the Misplaced Pages community). After a notice appears in the WP:BLP/N, and then "outside intervention" occurs, I do not know who the "outside interveners" are. That is not clear to me. I thought that "administrators" (who are editors who become administrators and thus "inside" Misplaced Pages structure)--WP:ANOT and Misplaced Pages:Administrators "patrol" the WP:BLP/N to see if they and/or others need to do something about reported (purported/alleged) violations of WP:BLP. Clearly, they are not "outside" of Misplaced Pages. Maybe "outside intervention" refers to action taken beyond simple editing (email communication with subjects of articles, lawyers, etc.; I do not know. If "us" really is problematical, perhaps a less-problematical (and it is still only a request) would be: "... please place a notice on the BLP noticeboard." Then one would go to the WP:BLP/N to consult the procedures in the top, its links to various procedural policies and guidelines, and discuss those matters on its talk page as warranted. --NYScholar 19:49, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Changed the sentence to more coherent syntax (following the conditional clause in start of the sentence): "If you have concerns ... please report them ...." --NYScholar 20:00, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Eh, "us" sounds more friendly, but whatever :) -- Ned Scott 04:43, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Tbe BLP noticeboard is manned by volunteers, in the same manner of other noticeboards. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 14:40, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

sources question - CV

I have a question regarding acceptable sources when writing an article about a currently living scientist/scholar. Is it appropriate to cite the CV of such a person (which is often available at that person's website) as a source for some biographical data? Thanks, Nsk92 15:41, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

that would fall under useing the subject as a source.Geni 16:14, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

For specific language and limitations, see WP:SELFPUB. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 16:18, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

In particular, a CV at an official University site is to a considerable extent subject to public fact-checking--people who tell significant untruths there relevant to their professional activities often end up unemployed, typically with public comment in RSs. such sites are certainly OK to use for uncontroversial material. I would extent that to CVs at official sites of any sort. (There are exceptions--one borderline academic's claims about a PhD could not be verified and the article was removed at AfD for that and other reasons)DGG (talk) 17:59, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Sourcewatch

I'm thinking about removing external links and all non-qualified citations (that is, all controversial assertions, but not things like "Sourcewatch...criticized...") from BLPs. I think that WP:EL and WP:BLP support this as the site is a somewhat ideological wiki. However, this would be an enormous shift—tons of BLPs link to sourcewatch. See also relevant prior discussion at Misplaced Pages:Templates for deletion/Log/2007 June 19#Template:SourceWatch and Misplaced Pages talk:External links/Archive 17#Linking to external wikis. Are there any reservations? Cool Hand Luke 20:10, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Are there tons of links? I see a dozen or so. Agreed, sourcewatch is not a reliable source given its lack of editorial control and potential for instability of article content. Moreover, it would tend to fail the external link guideline because it mostly points to information that could be included in Misplaced Pages if someone bothered to expand the article. I would remove it as a citation and as an external link to any information about controversies involving living people, but leave in anything uncontroversial, e.g. the citation in the Andrew Nagorski biography. That isn't ideal. The writer should have chased the sourcewatch article down to see where they got the information about his leave of absence, and used that as a direct source rather than going through a wiki as an intermediate source. But if you remove it without replacing it with a better citation that might do more harm than good. Wikidemo 21:07, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry, most are under www.sourcewatch.org There are over 1000 links total just through "M". I agree with you; uncontroversial things, or news coverage having to do with sourcewatch itself can stay, but I think it looks too falsely authoritative for an external link and that it's unreliable as a BLP source. Cool Hand Luke 21:48, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

I would strongly argue, though, against simply going through and removing links to Sourcewatch articles wholesale; instead, you should look at the Sourcewatch articles themselves, and take the relevent sources from them, replacing our cite to Sourcewatch with those (and removing the cite if Sourcewatch had no useful sources itself.) Simply removing Sourcewatch citations when Sourcewatch itself has a source that backs up the relevent claim strikes me as a somewhat destructive way of solving the problem, when we could easily be using a better source instead. (It should also be noted that since it is under the GDFL, we can incorperate Sourcewatch text directly into Misplaced Pages when it is relevent, although naturally in that case it has to comply with Misplaced Pages standards, including the citation of sources other than Sourcewatch. In fact, in places where Sourcewatch has relevent text that you believe fits Misplaced Pages standards, that may be the better option, since it allows future editors to consider, expand, and edit it along Misplaced Pages lines, and avoids making us responsible for any of Sourcewatch's future instability as a Wiki.) --Aquillion 23:27, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

What about bios where it is not cited in the article, but is listed in EL? Remove it? - Dean Wormer 03:17, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Hmm... that's a tricker question. Wikis are allowed as external sources, but somewhat discouraged unless they're large, established, and stable. I think Sourcewatch is relatively established and stable as far as wikis go, so we can link to it... but WP:EL also notes that things should be linked if they can't be directly included in the article for whatever reason; in other words, if a Sourcewatch article is good enough to use as an external link, it's probably good enough for us to just take the relevent parts (with their sources) and put them in the article, at which point we don't need to link to Sourcewatch anymore (of course, attribution with something like Template:SourceWatch_text is also needed.) Links to Sourcewatch in external links shouldn't just be taken out because they're links to sourcewatch, but if there's things that can be incorporated from them then that's probably the route to go... and if there's nothing worth incorperating, what are they adding as an external link? There may be a few cases where they go into more detail on something than would be desirable in the article, though... in that case they could be kept as a link. --Aquillion 04:42, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Most of these are ELs, not citations. I think the WP:EL policy aims for reliability more than stability, and POV links are also disfavored. Sourcewatch fails on both counts. For the same reason, I think incorporating often-unverified material from Sourcewatch is not only unwise, it's a BLP violation. If users find individual sourcewatch pages helpful, they should independently source and incorporate the content. Cool Hand Luke 05:35, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Sourcewatch is a wiki of extremely varying quality. Even a minor examination of the wiki reveals a very strong political, anti-authoritarian, fringe, conspiracy theory, and often pro-alternative agenda. Sometimes it seems more like a blog or discussion list with a mixture of some good and informative articles alongside sketchy comments more like the notes quickly jotted on the back of a napkin, or a grocery list, or even an unfinished "to do" list in article space. I have seen articles in all those states at the site, with direct repetitions of libelous conspiracy theories (naming people who are in court suing other people for making precisely those false charges other places) allowed to stay there for a long time. Enormous BLP issues! It is not a reliable source in any sense, and especially in the Misplaced Pages sense, and not just because it's a wiki. No fact checking or editorial oversight, just an anti-authoritarian agenda. It seems that anything is allowed under the device "if it's against our enemies it must be OK." Since the articles are of such varying quality over time and from moment to moment, it would be best to use the original sources of good information, but not use Sourcewatch itself. It is even more unstable than Misplaced Pages, and Misplaced Pages is not a RS by its own standards, so Sourcewatch would be even less eligible as a RS than Misplaced Pages. -- Fyslee/talk 07:06, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I was not aware that Sourcewatch was so unstable and unreliable. I'm not sure how it got added to so many articles, but it's now ubiquitous. Earlier this year I was in a disagreement with another editor who appeared to be removing external links to Sourcewatch from a number of article because they weren't neutral. I thought that wasn't an adequate reason and that they shouldn't be deleted without discussion. I'm now less trusting of the site, and I won't defend it any longer. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 07:20, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

External links to Sourcewatch have been ubiquitous here from the early days of both wikis. Originally, Sourcewatch was called "Disinfopedia" and its founder was a prominent early major contributor to Misplaced Pages. In fact, he is said to have coined the term "Wikimedia". Mike R 14:21, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Sourcewatch is not a reliable source. As such, it should be removed immediately, per this policy. Vassyana 07:38, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

given it's pretty wide use the consensus position appears to be that there is not a problem. The box at the top of the page claims it has consensus. Are you argueing for the removal of that box?Geni 15:11, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't know what "box" you are referring to, but it looks like a reexamination of the real situation at Sourcewatch is producing a changing consensus here. Long time use is not a good reason for not changing our position. It's actually a terrible reason! Common sense also tells us not to rely on it as a source, except in an article about itself. Misplaced Pages only accepts the use of very few extremely tightly controlled wikis without public access, and Sourcewatch doesn't fit the bill in any sense. Just to see an example of how it is used as a base for personal messages of a dubious nature from an adversary, try this one. It's a personal message that recommends a book that has been sued for libelous and undocumented conspiracy theories involving named people and the organization. The inclusion of that message was fortunately modified to some degree by this comment, but it's still there with it's untruths. If Misplaced Pages is open about its own lack of status as a RS by its own standards (and it does), then how can we use an open source wiki that allows this type of thing? It is obviously even less a RS than Misplaced Pages. -- Fyslee/talk 17:13, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

The box that says this is a policy based on consensus. Or do you think half a dozen people here can overturn the kind of consensus that would be required to place the link in over a thousand articles?Geni 02:45, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

OK. Well, maybe we should begin removing it from BLPs. I think sourcewatch might still be a valuable link for organizations, especially political ones—political organizations make claims about each other all the time, and I don't think it's as big a deal as potentially linking libel. When removing the link, we should make a note like "Removing unreliable source per BLP, but feel free to independently cite and include any material that may help improve this article, see WT:BLP#Sourcewatch." This way editors will not simply revert the removal, but will try to patch any holes in the articles and can participate in a centralized discussion here. We should also take time to adequately source existing claims whenever possible. If they can't be sourced, we should remove them, but we should at least try to find reliable sources for existing content. Any last reservations before I start? Cool Hand Luke 01:44, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

I feel direct untruths in edit summeries should be avoided. External links are not sources.Geni 02:45, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Ok. So "source" or "external link" as the case may be. Cool Hand Luke 02:46, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

I'll reiterate again: Citations and external links are very different things. Sourcewatch is plainly not suitable to be used as a citation, although I would strongly oppose wholesale removal when the sourcewatch page itself has sources that can be used to replace it -- but it is a perfectly usable external link in most situations, the only question being how established and stable it is as a wiki. None of the other things you have said about it matter in an external link; they are allowed to hold POVs and to be harshly critical of the article's subject (indeed, the only place where a sourcewatch article is likely to be useful as an external link is when it is critical of the article's subject.) Despite its other limitations, Sourcewatch is usually well-referenced, and it is a fairly longstand wiki. Individual Sourcewatch pages may not be suitable, but the only reason to go out and remove large numbers of them is because you are incorporating their relevent text in the article itself, since that is the only major problem the site poses as an external link. --Aquillion 18:06, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Pay

I recently discussed with another editor the merits of including salary information.(1) There is a tradition in society that regards pay levels or salary as private information. But that isn't an absolute. In many cases, such as soldiers, civil servants, politicians, bureaucrats, and executives of both corporations and non-profits, the base salaries are available through primary sources. In a very few cases, pay information is available through secondary sources (or even promoted by PR agents); most of those involve performers, sportsmen, CEOs, and a few other high profile categories. PR folks are often eager to release pay information about their stars, thouogh the info may not always be reliable. I see three basic distinctions and their likely disposition: salary info with no sources (delete); jobs for which salaries are available through primary sources only (annual reports, government pay scales, etc.) (delete); high profile jobs: 'commissions' movie roles, prominent artworks, sports figures, CEOs, whose figures are reported in secondary sources (keep). Is that sufficiently obvious in the existing policy or should we add a line about how to handle pay? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 09:58, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

• Like anything else, you should first ask if secondary independant sources discuss it. If other, independant sources note it, maybe it's important. On the other hand, the government of Ontario publishes the salary of all civil servents who make over $100K a year. I would advise against including that for anyone unless their salary is singled out by another publication (so I could look up Mary Anne Chambers' salary on gov.on.ca, but I would not include that. If an article on her in the Globe and Mail discussed her salary, then it might be worth including. Context is important. WilyD 15:21, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I think it is implicitly covered in the Presumption in favor of privacy section. I don't necessarily think it would be out of the question to add a sub-section specifically mentioning salary, though, just as there is a specific sub-section about privacy of birthdays. I think the guidelines for both would be very similar. --Jaysweet 15:31, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Indeed, I would generally agree with the first point. But expanding and expanding presumption in favour of privacy to specifically list everything it might cover is unwieldy - birthdays get special mention because they're very commonly included in biographies, but might make some people testy. WilyD 15:38, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Fair 'nuff. --Jaysweet 15:40, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Updated archive (15)

Please see top of page for indication of what has been archived. Thanks. --NYScholar 15:04, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

quotations

I've been given the understand that this is a policy page. As such it is something that should be read and and followed (or filled with the bunch of one off cases that make it a great weapon for rule laywers but useless for getting things done opinion appears to be devided). However neither of these are helped by adding about a kilobyte of quote. If you want people to read and apply the document it needs to be kept as sort as posible. Adding quotes does not facilitate this.Geni 15:08, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

These are there for a reason. See the recent interview given by Jimmmy Wales: Misplaced Pages:Wikipedia_Signpost/2007-09-10/Jimbo_interview. Reverted. 16:23, 14 September 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jossi (talk • contribs)

No reason given there. Remeber I was in the channel watching that interview take place. Now are you going to a)counter my points b)provide a reason to keep the quotes or c) admit that you reverted without a valid reason.Geni 16:30, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

The quote is a useful articulation. I think we should retain it. Tom Harrison 16:56, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

So do I — two quotes in fact. I wouldn't be in favour of fourteen, but I don't think two is overdoing it, and they are highly relevant. ElinorD (talk) 17:02, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Are they part of the policy? A short articulation of the policy is covered in "This page in a nutshell". If they are not part of the policy they are cruft and thus should be removed.Geni 17:38, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

They are part of the policy as long as consensus supports keeping them on the page. Tom Harrison 17:41, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

In that case what do they cover that no other part of the policy covers?Geni 18:25, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm not convinced they must do that. They are useful. Why do they have to be anything else? Tom Harrison 18:37, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

How are they useful? How are they more useful than shortening the page?Geni 20:51, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

There are other quotations used throughout the project page as "Example", some less clear than these clear statements; citations to quotations in notes (not always fully clear, as they come from other contexts); citations used for clarification of points; other examples here and there; there is no strong rationale for removing these quotations, which have been in this policy page for an extended period of time without previous contention. They are helpful, especially to inexperienced editors. --NYScholar 19:01, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

It should be clear to most readers that when a person writes, "I can NOT emphasize this enough" that "emphasis" of a point, not redundancy, is the rationale for including the statement. (It would have been better if he used italics and not all caps (shouting), but what can one do? This is an exact quotation.)

Wales himself goes on to say that he is expressing an "attitude" not a "policy"; so one could then surmise that the "attitude" toward the policy is what this part of it (use of the quotation) attempts to define: a basis for the policy in an attitude of concern. (It helps the policy make sense in simple language that sometimes the rest of the policy may fail to do; emphasis is a kind of "fail-safe" mechanism, especially for newcomers to Misplaced Pages (including subjects of BLP). --NYScholar 19:31, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

That would be covered in the Misplaced Pages:Biographies_of_living_persons#Rationale section. We don't need the quotes for that.Geni 22:28, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

If I remember correctly, during the development of BLP, we took into considerations the many comments of Jimbo on the subject. The additions of these comments have been in this page for a long time and I do not see any compelling reasons not to continue having these, in particular as BLP keeps being mentioned in the press, is widely applied, and it is used as the basis for many WP:OTRS interventions. I would argue that any dilution of this policy will require a substantial discussion and agreement. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 19:49, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree 100% with Jossi. ElinorD (talk) 20:12, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

One Jimbo quote per policy page is already too many. Two is flat out Jimbo worship. Those quotes have always stuck out as awkward. They aren't particularly good Jimbo quotes even - not especially pithy, clever, or helpful, and not elucidating anything in particular. The arbcom statement has the same flaws. I don't believe anybody agrees that those quotes in themselves are operative policy statements, or valid as an interpretive tool for the policy. Inasmuch as they are ineffective, it does not dilute the policy page to remove them. In fact, they do more harm than good by confusing people as to where policy comes from and making longer and more complex an already over-long and somewhat confusing page that draws authority from various sources. Policy is embodied in policy statements, not words from Jimbo or the arbitration committee (even if his word has historically been understood to influence or even create policy). Wikidemo 19:59, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Of all Misplaced Pages policies, WP:BLP is the one that causes the most difficulty and controversy, yet it is a policy which is also absolutely fundamental to the project. In order to achieve the best comprehension and application of this policy it is crucial to cultivate an understanding of both the letter and the spirit of this policy. Given this context and this requirement, the quotations not only serve a useful purpose but constitute a vital element of the policy. These quotations should remain unless and until a strong consensus to do otherwise emerges. I see no signs of such an emergence in the foreseeable future. The quotations should remain. BCST2001 21:18, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

In other words, people don't agree so we're pulling out the Jimbo card? Policy is policy. It's all important and no need to broadcast canned Jimbo to prove one policy is the most important. The thing is, those quotes don't come down on one side or any other, and they make the page look silly, especially to the masses of editors and outsiders who care more about the encyclopedia than its inner workings. Far from impressing people that we take things seriously around here, tepid quotes form our beloved leader make us look like a bunch of functionaries from a minor religious cult.Wikidemo 21:36, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

What is the "Jimbo card" exactly? And why is that you consider these quotes "tepid"? They look extremely relevant to me. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:42, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Also note that Misplaced Pages is is both an encyclopedia and a community. You do not have one without the other, and it is good that the "masses of editors and outsiders" learn about that fact. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:43, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps learning to show esteem for our beloved leader is one of the things that turns people off, not on, to Misplaced Pages. Internet people are decidedly anti-authority, you know. "Playing the Jimbo card", vis-a-vis the comment I was responding to, is quoting Jimbo when he is not around, in hopes the reference strengthens your position. "Tepid" means what I said a couple posts before, not pithy, not especially insightful. The first quote is a long wonky statement about the mechanics of editing. The second is a Britney moment - "Real people are involved" and might get hurt. Really, now, you don't say? Even if you love the guy, quoting Jimbo on matters of how you should deal with uncited facts is like quoting Gandhi on how you should lace up your sandals. A good quote is something like "we have nothing to fear but fear itself" or "anything that can go wrong, will" or "never eat anything bigger than your head," something memorable that elucidates and condenses a point to memory and takes on a meaning beyond merely being the words of the person who said them. These particular words are only here to show that Jimbo said them, not because they actually add anything. We could say these things ourselves in fewer words and stronger language if they were policy. (1) "Remove instead of tagging uncited information in BLP"; and (2) "Disparaging articles hurt real people. Don't do it." But they are not policy, not quite. Jimbo's agreeing with us is besides the point. Wikidemo 22:01, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I'd never promote Jimbo quotes just because they came from Jimbo, unless I thought they were good ones. And really, the outsiders are more interested in our articles than in our policy pages; most of them don't even know about our policy pages. ElinorD (talk) 22:05, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

not saying you can't promote them. Just not on this page. You are free to create Misplaced Pages:jimbo quotes about BLP and link it in see also.Geni 22:22, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Internet people are decidedly anti-authority Really? What is an "internet people"? Wikidemo, we have moved on since the early 90s. My 85 year old mother surfs the net, uses Skype and email. Is she an "internet people"? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:09, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Does she edit wikipedia? I don't know if you have been paying much attention to US politics of late but of the various pages we have on candidates Ron Paul is the most popular.Geni 22:26, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Let's drop this, shall we? It is becoming a pissing contest more than a useful discussion. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:11, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

That's sweet, Jossi. Yes, she's Intenet people too and I agree, I'm just ranting. Well, thanks for the interesting discussion. I don't see that anyone is going to actually remove the quotes anytime soon. But I do have an admonition against quoting Jimbo and other outside sources in my new guideline on policies and guidelines. /rant off/ Wikidemo 22:16, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Jossi you wish to withdraw from disscussion of your revert? do you wish then to withdraw your revert?Geni 22:19, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I did not "revert". I "restored" material about which there is consensus. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:11, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Help:Reverting would beg to differ. Look if you are going to try and defintion lawyer at least have the decency to do it well.Geni 03:39, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Sorry Geni, but that is a bit disingenuous. You deleted material without checking if there is consensus for removal (see the header of this very page in case you forgot that this page is official policy). I restored back to the consensus version. If you want to challenge the keeping of these quotes, gain consensus first. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:46, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

I've seen good rule lawyers in action. You are not one of them. Please stop trying to be. The word is revert. You know this.Geni 12:29, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

I am not a lawyer, and that fact that you deleted material three times from this article against consensus is all what I am trying to point out. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 18:11, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Creeping changes...

... without consensus will be challenged. This is an official policy of Misplaced Pages, and the current wording is the result of previous discussions. If you want to challenge any portion, wording, or formulation of the policy, discuss first, out of respect for standing consensus. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:56, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Agree, but I hope everyone makes note of this, given some of the changes made in the past. -- Ned Scott 04:02, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

BLP does not have consensus. I has never had consensus and now you set a higher bar to change it compared to keeping it.Geni 12:23, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

That is ludicrous. BLP is official policy and has been for more than a year. It is cited in all other core policy pages such as V, NPOV and NOR, is quoted in many ArbCom cases, and was recently mentioned by Jimmy Wales in his last interview. The burden to prove that BLP has no consensus is on those that challenge it, no the other way around. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 18:13, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Geni, with all due respect you are off the wall. BLP is among the most important policies we have. Just from a legal position it is essential to the continued existence of Misplaced Pages. Slrubenstein | Talk 18:29, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

strangely none of that equals consensus. Aditional from a legal POV exactly two things matter "must adhere strictly to the law in Florida, United States" and the Designated agent section. Probably need a line to the effect that stuff removed by the Designated agent can't be put back. The rest is expendable.Geni 18:58, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

The content of this page in its entirety is official policy of Misplaced Pages. You are welcome to challenge it and gather consensus for any changes to it. Claiming that there is no consensus, will not get you anywhere, Geni. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 19:05, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm not argueing that it isn't official policy but well generaly those who deal with copyright (the other legal area) don't try and pretend our EDP has consensus. Still you appear to accept jimbo's word and jimbo has laid out what is required to demonstrate consensus. Feel free to show that BLP meets these requirements.Geni 19:18, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Cute, Geni. Go ahead and claim that V, NOR, BLP and many other policies do not have consensus. Good luck to you. Bye for now. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 19:38, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

V and NOR had consensus when they were created which is all that really matters.Geni 19:46, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

It appears obvious that there's agreement that this policy page is a valid expression of policy for biographical information about living people. I forget now, what is the occasion for this meta-debate? If it's about the Jimbo quotes I don't think that rises to the level of a pressing legal necessity or a deep question of what consensus is. If you don't like them, get rid of them. But if a lot of people cherish them they'll say no and the quotes stay. It seems simple.Wikidemo 22:40, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

A reversion like Jossi's edithere ought to be backed up by more than a note that evolution of a page over time is a "creeping change" to an old policy. Incremental changes over time at the hands of multiple Wikipedians is a legitimate way pages improve and policy shifts, and anyone who appears long after the fact to restore the old version is going against consensus, not with it. The reversion is only okay IMO because it's a new change to an old policy and hasn't yet gained acceptance. Having said that, I don't understand why the admonition to remove poorly sourced material from BLP on sight should be limited to talk pages, articles, and project space. Why not all of Misplaced Pages? If Jossi could shares those reasons instead of simply reverting it wouldn't waste my time trying to hunt the change history for when and why the change happened and whether it's a good idea. The whole paragraph, incidentally, is pretty lousy as an introduction and ought to be replaced by a statement of what the policy actually is. It's got impertinent Jimbo citations and states something clearly different than what the policy really is.Wikidemo 01:05, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

The reason I reverted is that this specific aspect was discussed at length at the time. People need to know that when we say remove unsourced and poorly sourced material, we refer not only to material in mainspace (that can be construed when we say "Misplaced Pages"). We also refer to talk pages, project pages, etc. Editors are welcome to improve upon the wording, rather than diluting the wording. A deletion without asking as for the reasons of the wording, simply shows lack of respect for the consensus of editors that worked and discussed these additions at the time. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:59, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Same applies for other edits to this page: Improvements that do not change the meaning or intention of the wording are always welcome. And when these changes are challenged on the basis that it changes established consensus, the proper thing is to ask for clarification as you have done above. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 02:02, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

I thought the wording change strengthened things because it applied the admonition to remove unsourced material to all of Misplaced Pages, not just main/article/project space. So I assumed it was an improvement, though I can accept there might be a reason to limit this statement to these name spaces. Sorry if I missed / overlooked the original explanation....no, you shouldn't have to re-explain every time if you've already explained before so thanks for that. Yes, asking you is better than just reverting and saying I don't understand, a good lesson. Wikidemo 02:06, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Jossi are you takeing the position that BLP does not apply in the portal help template or mediawiki talk namespace?Geni 02:12, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Point taken, Geni. What about:

Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material — whether negative, positive, or just questionable — about living persons should be removed immediately and without discussion from all pages in Misplaced Pages. including talk, user, project, and other pages.

≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 02:39, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

We could also add a footnote to list all type pages, if needed. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 02:41, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

I think that's an improvement and no need for a footnote to show that a set is the union of all its members. Don't let this stop you from improving the language but I think the whole statement is all wet, though. We don't delete everything in BLP's that has no source or a poor source on sight without discussion. To illustrate I did a WP:POINT edit to a typical rock band stub, the Plain White T's, here (sorry, my bad). Since nothing is sourced the article gets pruned back to a comment that their band name is a grammatical error. Are we allowed to do it? Yes, within reason. Is that what we must do or we do in practice? No. In reality we apply fact tags, article the editor so it's better, delete only weird and controversial looking stuff, and do discuss what we did on the talk page if only after the fact. So the statement is just chest thumping and hyperbole on how serious we are about BLP. Definitely not policy. Wikidemo 03:55, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

We do "delete everything in BLP's that has no source or a poor source on sight without discussion", if it is contentious. And that is what this policy states. Your WP:POINT edit removed material that was not contentious, just unsourced. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 05:05, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, if contentious, which should be added. And it wouldn't hurt to make this more succinct, which NYScholar appears to be working on, below. And why do we really need to quote Jimbo saying we're trying to get an article "right". What are we, chopped liver? Trying to get articles wrong? Anyway, I thought verifiability was key, not truth. "Right" is ambiguous here because it implies truth. Wikidemo 06:03, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Remove all undocumented or poorly-documented contentious material about living persons — whether negative, positive, or questionable — immediately and without discussion from all pages in Misplaced Pages.

Is the phrase " — whether negative, positive, or questionable —" necessary or helpful? Without it, the point is the same, and more clear. --NYScholar 05:50, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Hence: Remove all undocumented or poorly-documented contentious material about living persons immediately and without discussion from all pages in Misplaced Pages. --NYScholar 05:51, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

A couple small quibbles. How about "if contentious" as a conditional modifier rather than "contentious" as a mere adjective? That calls it out a little better. Also, "without discussion" sounds like a request not to even talk about it, which seems rude. I think the intent is that there need be no prior notice, consensus, etc. If that's true, is there a more pleasant way to say it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikidemo (talk • contribs) 06:27, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

"Without discussion" is intentional; it means there is a requirement not to discuss such material on talk pages. When encountering it, WP:BLP requires that all users remove any such material on sight; that has been Misplaced Pages policy for a long time (more than a year or two years), as I recall. I remember seeing this "dictum" in several places in Misplaced Pages policies (referring to "material about living persons" and BLP everywhere in Misplaced Pages.) The dictum not to discuss such undocumented material in talk pages or anywhere else in Misplaced Pages is to follow this policy. When people "discuss" the unmentionable material, they inevitably "mention" it; this policy explicitly says not to do that. It's not rude. It's a rule. --NYScholar 06:36, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

I added italics above. To say one can talk about any of this unmentionable undocumented or poorly-documented "contentious material about living persons" misses the point of the policy as it is stated in WP:BLP. --NYScholar 06:40, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

The clear intention of this policy is not to discuss such material anywhere in Misplaced Pages. That includes "talk pages" and perhaps especially talk pages. People bring this material to talk pages and violate WP:BLP frequently. The policy says that if one encounters any such discussions taking place on talk pages or user talk pages or anywhere, remove it on sight. Its intention is crystal clear and not disputed. It is the consensus of Misplaced Pages. --NYScholar 06:45, 16 September 2007 (UTC) --NYScholar 06:48, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

I oppose adding "if" before "contentious"; "contentious material" is the intended kind of material; the adjective is proper and not unclear; adding "if" is confusing. --NYScholar 06:50, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

I won't quibble further. Interesting point about the dictum not to discuss. There must be some limitation. The statement here seems way overbroad. If someone keeps posting "Lindsey Lohan you're the the greatest!!!!" we should remove it on sight, but we can certainly admonish the fans on the top page to please stop posting unsourced material. Wikidemo 07:40, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

The "limitation" not to discuss "the subject" is right on the top of talk pages about subjects in their headers: viz. "This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the ... article. This is not a forum for general discussion about the article's subject."

Based on that, when users (espec. unsigned anon IP users) drop into a talk page to leave their deposits like "Lindsey Lohan you're the greatest!!!!!", I delete such fancruft (or similar cruft) and provide a clear editing summary why I've done that. Those kinds of comments are not "discussing improvements to the ... article." ("..." is the title of the article/subject.") That stuff really is cruft; it lowers the level of talk pages in Misplaced Pages to fansite message boards and forums. Elsewhere the Misplaced Pages:What Misplaced Pages is not clearly states that it is not those things and neither are its talk pages. Misplaced Pages editors, especially those involved in its special projects, need to uphold its own stated standards, including those currently in WP:BLP, WP:V, and Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view. Deleting inappropriate comments from Misplaced Pages made through apparent vandalism is an exception to WP:3RR. Misplaced Pages's article talk pages are for making improvements to the articles. Other talk pages (like user talk pages) also should not indulge users in making small talk and gossip.

If Misplaced Pages is a serious project, its editors need to treat it like one. I understand that the example is a light-hearted one and that editors in Misplaced Pages want to "have fun"; but their fun should not diminish the reputation of the content in Misplaced Pages, whose reputation is already questioned and often questionable (especially among those in academia who teach college and university students). Recent controversies have led some institutions to prohibit its use as a source because of its unreliability. Misplaced Pages itself acknowledges its own unreliability when it states that open-source encyclopedia not subject to editorial peer review and oversight (including Misplaced Pages; but also online sites like the NNDB) are not among reliable sources for its articles. (At times, I would question the reliability also of often-cited sites like IMDB, whose editors frequently miss or fail to correct quickly enough or at all factual errors introduced by its users, who indulge in adding gossip to its biographies of living persons.) --NYScholar 18:32, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

What I mean is that if the statement that unsourced material is removed without discussion is a prohibition rather than an enablement or some kind of hyperbole, it ought to be limited to situations where that is actually the case. The only place where the reasoning holds is where the material removed is scandalous, damaging, and novel. Otherwise, to prohibit us from discussing what we are doing and why is rather strong and unnecessary censorship.Wikidemo 18:57, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

WP:BLP refers to "contentious" "material about living persons" whether or not it is "positive", "negative", or "just questionable"; that is explicit and not confined to the "scandalous, damaging, and novel". Those kinds of statements invent criteria in WP:BLP that are not the policy.

After participating in discussions on this talk page over the past month or so, I have begun to wonder whether or not there are particular agenda that others have in discussing WP:BLP (and WP:EL, in the archived discussions). Some statements made really do not seem in keeping with WP:BLP as it has existed since its inception (longer than a half-year). I have been trying to follow WP:BLP in its various states for the time that I have been here (since it was a policy that one could refer to); in my case, for over two years. (I did not realize that it was being heavily edited until just this past month, because I did not look at its editing history before August.) I have not until this summer encountered such comments about the policy. I do not understand the rationale of those who make them. It seems to me that some may be attempting to open up Misplaced Pages articles about living persons to material that has previously been prohibited from Misplaced Pages: the passage under discussion is a very crucial passage. These new distinctions being made seem to be either intentional or unintentional attempts to weaken it (water it down). The purpose if there is one is unclear to me. (These comments are not in any way intended to be "uncivil": they are observations after seeing patterns in the comments being made particularly over the past month and especially these past few days.) There is a difference between "censorship" (in my view an absurd claim) and proper judgment and avoidance of Misplaced Pages:Libel of living persons.

As a Misplaced Pages editor (who is also a living person), perhaps editors should ask themselves the following hypothetical question: "(If I were deemed notable enough to warrant an article about me in Misplaced Pages) Would I want to permit such "contentious material" being included about me (anywhere) in Misplaced Pages?"

There are such things as conventions of civil discourse (in academic discourse; in scholarship; in respectable journalism

It particularly troubles me that some of the people making what seem to be forays into WP:BLP are editors heavily involved in creating and editing biographies of living persons (the project). That these editors are questioning and complaining about long-standing WP:BLP policy definitions really troubles me, because, as they are doing so, so they are may also be contributing to and editing biographies of living persons as they might prefer the policies to allow them to do. I wonder how many recent biographies of living persons violate some of the standards of WP:BLP if they are being edited according to practices that are not in keeping with current WP:BLP? (I don't know but I do wonder.) I do know that there is a big problem in biographies of living persons and in material about living persons in Misplaced Pages that other editors are attempting to deal with, and that the problem seems to be extensive; I do not know if it is pervasive. Perhaps someone can point to the project page where these problematic biographies of living persons and articles with such questionable material are listed. ??? --NYScholar 22:37, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

It's hard not to take that long, uncivil rant about newbies with agendas as anything other than a gripe about me, inasmuch as I'm the only one in the room at the moment. If the thought of my editing BLP and talking about it here troubled you, you'll just have to be troubled. I am not planning on leaving. Wikidemo 00:01, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

I still think that the current wording with a small change, captures the spirit of the policy, as follows:

Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material — whether negative, positive, or just questionable — about living persons should be removed immediately and without discussion from all pages in Misplaced Pages.

The "whether negative, positive, or just questionable" was added after a long discussion, and ot addresses the fact that we are not only referring to negative material, but to positive or questionable material as well. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:51, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Propose: Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material — whether negative, positive, or just questionable — about living persons should be removed immediately from all pages in Misplaced Pages. Such material should not be discussed in a way that would further spread inappropriate derogatory statements about living people.Wikidemo 00:04, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

...though I just noticed Jossi's latest "tweak" and I'm happy enough with that. It does improve the wording. Wikidemo 00:06, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Deletion

I just deleted an addition that someone added w/o prior discussion; it is not a stylistic change: The content added is: "In particular, speculation about the health or death of a living person is not to be included in articles. A biography of a living person should not be changed to characterize them as dead or dying, unless supported by reliable sources with citations to allow verification."

Such content needs discussion. Adding it does not follow the warning at the top of the project page. --NYScholar 23:42, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Do you disagree with it or are you deleting it for the sake of deleting it? Wikidemo 23:45, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict)

I have no interest in discussing the addition. I simply deleted it because it should not have been added at all. People editing the page are directed to the talk page at the top of the page. Basing such a change on an experience at one article is not based on "consensus" on WP:BLP (this project page). Who knows what they are experiencing there and who has the time to check every page where such discussions are ongoing? The point is that any changes to WP:BLP that involve its content (not minor changes involving mere stylistic expression of that content) need prior discussion and then they need established consensus (which occurs over time). (I do not delete content just "for the sake of deleting it" or any other kind of frivolous reason.) --NYScholar 23:50, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

It is the responsibility of the editor who wants to add the content to come to this talk page to discuss it (first). It is clearly something that requires prior discussion and the development of consensus. (The content added appears unnecessary to me because it involves "poorly sourced or unsourced" "material about a living person" , which is already covered in the policy.) --NYScholar 23:55, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

"all pages in Misplaced Pages"

==="all pages in Misplaced Pages"=== Jossi: I thought "in Misplaced Pages" was clear; see above. "all pages in Misplaced Pages" seems less clear to me that "in Misplaced Pages" (period). Some parts of Misplaced Pages are not "pages" from some people's perspective. "In Misplaced Pages" relates to all of the encyclopedia space. --NYScholar 23:59, 16 September 2007 (UTC) rethought. --NYScholar 00:00, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Instead of "from all pages in Misplaced Pages" (as suggested in bold above and as Jossi just inserted) would "from Misplaced Pages" be less likely to lead to possible interpretive quibbles (e.g., what is "a page" vs. other "space" or whatever). The phrase "from Misplaced Pages" refers to the encyclopedia. I think that is the policy in that (original) paragraph in WP:BLP. --NYScholar 00:06, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Death

I added this line to the policy:

In particular, speculation about the health or death of a living person is not to be included in articles. A biography of a living person should not be changed to characterize them as dead or dying, unless supported by reliable sources with citations to allow verification.

Which seems like an obvious conclusion that is indisputable, but apparently an editor does dispute it so I will post it here to see what is disputed. Dhaluza 00:11, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

It is not necessary and it is unclearly worded. No possibly "contentious material about living persons" is permissible ("unless supported by reliable sources with citations to allow verification") already. Any such speculative content that does not come from "reliable sources" (WP:V#Sources) is possibly contentious content and cannot be included in Misplaced Pages--whether it is about living persons or anything else. That violates WP:NOR I see no need for the addition just because dispute policy. Send the editor(s) to WP:BLP to discuss his/her/their dispute. Have him/her/them contact an administrator for assistance. But one does not change WP:BLP simply because one editor (or some editors) dispute(s) something in a content editing dispute in one article. --NYScholar 00:16, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

People engaged in editing content disputes are not supposed to come to policy project pages to change them in order to support their arguments in such disputes. Please see WP:Edit warring for how to proceed with problems of that kind. --NYScholar 00:21, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Moreover, if the addition is such an "obvious" "conclusion" from reading WP:BLP, it does not need to be added. If it's so "obvious" a conclusion, it's obvious from the policy as already stated. Because some people are having problems convincing others of that is not a reason to put the addition in the policy. It is redundant with what is already stated in the policy. (Plus, it is not clearly worded anyway.) ... --NYScholar 00:30, 17 September 2007 (UTC)