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User InfoCheck Violating 3 Revert Rule

Esteemed collegues:

If you examine:

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Gothic_chess&action=history

You will see that InfoCheck has repeatedly, much more often than thrice, inserted a link in the "See Also" section, despite the consense to leave this link off of the Gothic Chess page. This user is insisting that a chess variant that he devised is very similar to the game of Gothic Chess which has been in existance for seven years. He is therefore requesting links back to his personal home pages, his personal PDF files, and his personal analysis, none of which has undergone the peer review process common in academic circles. Gothic Chess has been so scrutinized, and has been published, in both hardback textbooks and other periodicals dealing with Artificial Intelligence. References of these published works are provided on the Gothic Chess page.

The user InfoCheck repeatedly imposes his own links, vioating neutral point of view, and violating the 3 revert rule as previously mentioned. Judge not only the history of posts, judge the two games for yourself:

	a	b	c	d	e	f	g	h	i	j
8											8
7											7
6											6
5											5
4											4
3											3
2											2
1											1
	a	b	c	d	e	f	g	h	i	j

	a	b	c	d	e	f	g	h	i	j
8											8
7											7
6											6
5											5
4											4
3											3
2											2
1											1
	a	b	c	d	e	f	g	h	i	j

It is obvious that:

1. Only the kings are in the same place, on the f1/f8 squares. This is the only similarity between the two games.

2. The Queen in "optimized chess" starts on the wrong color (White Queens are always on light squares, Black Queen are always on dark squares.)

3. The Knights and Rooks in "optimized chess" have exchanged places, not even on the same relative squares as regular 8x8 chess.

4. The Bishops in "optimized chess" can't reach the "long diagonals" (a1-h8 via being placed on b2, or j1-c8 via being placed on i2.) Placing Bishops on long diagonals is a very common motiff that chess players strive to do fairly often, and Gothic Chess players enjoy it as well.

5. The Bishop on the Queen's side in "optimized chess" is on the color opposite of what it should be.

6. The Bishop on the Kings side in "optimized chess" is on the color opposite of what it should be.

With so many obvious differences, myself and several others feel this user InfoCheck is doing nothing constructive. He is just trying to publicize a game of no interest at the expense of detracting from the Gothic Chess article.

I recommend him for banning for the 24 hour period for all of the aforementioned reasons.

ChessHistorian 04:33, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

"You and several others" refers to a gang of Gothic Chess fans, about three editors here. At least equally many neutral editors are for the inclusion of the Optimized Chess link. You yourself have been violating the three revert rule at least equally much as InfoCheck. You even just deleted InfoCheck's arguments for inclusion from the talk page (accidentally, I'm sure), without an explanation. Luckily I have just restored them. —ZeroOne (talk / @) 05:45, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

You're calling the inventor of the game a fan? You're calling only one of four people in the world who won a game against the inventor (who has over a 96% win ratio) a fan? You're calling me, a reporter for two city newspapers a fan? It would be more correct to say that 2 biased, anti-Gothic Chess people, with no interest in the game, no talent for playing the game, are just trying to detract from it by playing the role of spoilers. Well, guess what? We're sick of your illogical remarks. We're sick of you sub-standard, low-achievers claiming superiority over a published artificial intelliegence researcher who has several college degrees. You can't just insert meaningless links to a well constructed page and say they belong there. That other variant is complete crap. You were asked to find ONE PHOTOGRAPH of anybody playing that game, and you couldn't do it. So drop it. Go somewhere else. You're not wanted on the Gothic Chess page. You're not needed. You're statements are biased, inaccurate, and ludicrous. But we gave you your voice, however wrong it is, you have said what you needed to say, and the the people have spoken. They said get your links off of that page. So do it.

ChessHistorian 06:41, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

We have a noticeboard for violations of the three revert rule right here. We also have article talk pages for content discussions. This is not the place for either, and I also strongly encourage both of you to review the guidelines on civil discussion and personal attacks. Seraphimblade 06:45, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

User:InfoCheck is not requesting links to "his personal home pages, his personal PDF files", but to the Misplaced Pages article on Optimized Chess. If you think that such article should not exist on Misplaced Pages, the proper course of action is to take the article to WP:AFD. Well, you in fact did that already. I will now go there and vote keep because of my loss of WP:AGF. -- Petri Krohn 22:58, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

"Protected Gothic chess: Enough edit-warring. Discuss things on the talkpage, wait for this to expire, or visit WP:RFPP (expires 06:50, 19 August 2007 (UTC))" Please note that The Wrong Version of this article has been protected. Please do not request unprotection on my talkpage. ~Kylu (u|t) 06:52, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

I can't tell if chesshistorian is claiming to be the inventor of gothic chess or not, but that rant above with all the NPA and CIV vios seems to also be admission of a CoI. Anyone else reading it that way, or is it just late and I'm tired? ThuranX 09:08, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

ChessHistorian is not the inventor of Gothic Chess, User:GothicChessInventor is. (PS. I decrypted the bunch of acronyms that you just threw in by adding links to them, hope you don't mind. :) —ZeroOne (talk / @) 16:09, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't mind. Thanks for the clarification. ThuranX 17:07, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

I am the inventor of Gothic Chess. I got a call at about 4 AM from a Gothic Chess player from Australia letting me know what was going on at the Gothic Chess page regarding these edit wars. While I did appreciate his diligence, this is not how I would like to be informed when the Gothic Chess page is being vandalized by other variant authors. ChessHistorian is a newspaper reporter from the Baltimore Sun who interviewed me a few weeks ago when the game of checkers was announced as being solved. If you perform this google search you can find him:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=%22Ed+Trice%22+%22Baltimore+Sun%22&btnG=Search

Anyway, it looks to me like the correct version of the page is protected now. Thank you for this.

If I may shed some light on this from my own observations: Gothic Chess is a very popular chess variant that tens of thousands of people play. Other variants are virtually unknown. Sometimes a person that creates a new chess variant tries to force a "piggy back" association with another variant as a means to try and "trick" people into thinking it is played much more widely than it really is. This is clearly the case here. InfoCheck is the one who is trying to mislead Misplaced Pages readers with his announcement of an implicit strategic alignment between my game and his.

Objectively speaking, and as cited above, of the 10 pieces in the back row of each games' setup, only the Kings are in the same location.

The games are completely different. There is no reason to have his variant mentioned on the Gothic Chess page.

Furthermore, whereas I have gone through the recalcitrant process of obtaining a patent on my game (due to its uniqueness and the potential desire for many other chess manufactures to try and get a hold of it) and had several scientific periodicals print my published analysis of artifical intelligence papers that I had written on this (and other) subjects, the person known as InfoCheck has merely created a PDF file that he has on his website, and he continues to claim that his information is more accurate, "better", more realistic, etc., than my own. When I offered to submit his paper for him to the artificial researchers I know that would review it, he then reverts his claims, and stop spewing forth his ill-found rhetoric.

So we have a clear case of InfoCheck just looking for a soapbox on which to stand and say a great deal of things that are untrue, unproven, and just plain unfactual.

He is using Misplaced Pages as a means to broadcast this misinformation, the highest form of treason.

The administrators have the power to positively impact the material presented herein. I have a great deal of respect for your constant vigilence in countering page vandalism. I urge you to support ChessHistorian and understand some of his retaliatory remarks are just a function of his own weariness in dealing with InfoCheck. We have people on three continents agreeing that the material submitted by InfoCheck just does not belong. We also have people who are jealous of the popularity of Gothic Chess and try to do anything to detract from it. I do not understand these people. Just by reading their comments on the History page, you can see they are nothing more than unsupported conjecture that has no basis. As one of the Gothic Chess supporters summarized:

You can call a cat a fish, but it will not swim.

That is their case in microcosm: They furnish false statements without any backup. It is as if they are trying to tell Misplaced Pages Administrators that cats have gills and live in the water.

In closing, InfoCheck violated several Misplaced Pages policies, and should be dealt with accordingly. The people whose comments on the History page are nothing more than ignoratio elenchi will be easy for the administrators to find. I know you will do the right thing and take the appropriate actions.

I thank you for your time.

Inventor of Gothic Chess, Ed Trice

GothicChessInventor 16:29, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarifications. (by the way, I didn't do anything to protect the page, as yout talk page note seems to suggest.) Now that we've got someone claiming to be the inventor, who claims to have a clear view of the situation, I guess the only thing left to do is validate his identity to support his claims, then edit the page accordingly? thoughts? Have I oversimplified? (standard IANaAdmin). ThuranX 17:07, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

It is my position that I was baited into violating the 3-revert rule by a small gang of editors on the Gothic Chess page who were repeatedly throwing-out Optimized Chess which is indisputably a related Capablanca chess variant. These few people are zealots (not merely players) who are extremely prejudicial and unfair to other chess variants. It is significant that in tandem with this malicious action against me, a malicious attempt to have Optimized Chess, despite its established significance, thrown-out of Misplaced Pages is also underway.

All of these acts are financially-motivated to prevent a free game of excellent quality Optimized Chess from being available to people on Misplaced Pages who casually look at a commercial product Gothic Chess. This agenda violates the charter of Misplaced Pages to the extreme. To be sure, you are being lied to on a large scale in every paragraph by the opposition on this issue. You must spend some time and effort to discern exactly how and when.

The bizarre edit history and talk page entries at Gothic Chess and Ed Trice as well as Optimized Chess and Embassy Chess say much more than I can concisely about what honest editors go thru daily in fighting-off the actions of dishonest editors. This is where to begin to investigate in order to discover the truth.

Frankly, I am unconcerned about being blocked for a time if Misplaced Pages administrators are locked-in by the rules regardless of the circumstances. I did what I had to under difficult, stressful, unjust conditions. However, I am certain that I am normally a responsible, conscientious editor who acts constructively and should not be blocked. My edit history proves that.

--InfoCheck

ThuranX (and other Wikipedians and Misplaced Pages admins), please do not make up your mind on this issue based on what is said on this page only. Fully read Talk:Gothic chess starting from, say, the Number of example games section. Then see how User:Oli Filth was attacked using a mediation request which was correctly denied by the medcab people and then rightly deemed as ridiculous and pointless by a neutral third party, User:Boricuaeddie. I know all that is a lot of reading but I find it necessary to understand the extent this edit war has gone to. —ZeroOne (talk / @) 17:41, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Whoa, whoa. Please check your facts before making claims such as this. Firstly, I did not deny that request; the people at WP:MEDCAB did. Secondly, I did not attack Oli Filth. In fact, I agreed with him. Thirdly, it was ridiculous. The first party wanted to "ban" the other from editing the article; that's ridiculous. Therefore, creating a request for mediation because of this is pointless. Please assume good faith, man. --Boricuaeddie 21:32, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Ah, I see we have some misunderstandings here. I admit I thought you denied the request, sorry for that. I did not say you attacked Oli Filth (and of course everyone knows you didn't), I just said he was attacked. I'm with you here, I think your judgement that the case was ridiculous is completely right. I also agreed with Oli Filth, I only used your comment to bring up the other point of view to this whole mishmash of an edit war. See, I said that the case was judged as ridiculous by a neutral third party. My point is that if a neutral party judges it as ridiculous, it must be ridiculous. If one of the involved parties would've judged it ridiculous, there would obviously be a conflict of interests and it wouldn't mean much. I've now reworded the message above to avoid any further misunderstandings. —ZeroOne (talk / @) 22:50, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. --Boricuaeddie 23:20, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

InfoCheck clouds the issue. The point is, that the chess variant does not belong on the Gothic Chess page. Of the 20 pieces that are not pawns, only 2 are configured identically. The claims being made that is is a "indisputably a related Capablanca chess variant" are absurd. With only a 10% correlation of the pieces matching where they are placed, how can it possibly be related? Despite several authors asking this same question, no satisfactory answer was ever given. There is a reason for this: The games are not related at all.

We have asked the "supporters" of this extremely unusal variant to show us one picture of someone playing the game. None have been provided.

That speaks to the issue. Over 50,000 Gothic Chess sets have been sold since the year 2000. There are thousands of archived games on the GothicChess.com website (for example here: http://www.gothicchesslive.com/all-players-games.php ). There is a free program for downloading at http://www.GothicChess.com/vortex.zip that destroys every other program and player on the planet.

There are photos such as this one:

http://www.gothicchess.com/images/GCACheck.gif

..showing someone being paid $5000 back in the year 2000 for winning a big tournament that was played at the Marshall Chess Club in New York. There are boards and pieces for sale on the website. The inventor went to Iceland to meet Bobby Fischer shown here: http://www.gothicchess.com/iceland_news.html

In short: Gothic Chess is not just an enterprise, it is a thriving one.

If the game that InfoCheck claims is better than Gothic Chess, how come he can't show one picture of one person playing the game? And, if his game is so much better, why wouldn't the "lowly" Gothic Chess people actively seek to have their game linked to his?

It is plain to see that the reverse is being sought. InfoCheck is desparately trying to attach his game to Gothic Chess and thereby "prove" something. I have no idea what that is. All I know is, that game he is trying to promote is worthless, nobody plays it, there is no dedicated website for it, there are no example games of it, there is just one PDF file where he claims it is the best thing out there.

You have to call it like you see it. That other variant has no followers. Even the game's creator has no photograph of him playing it since he can't get one other person to play it with him!

Compare that to Gothic Chess where they raised $15,000,000 last summer had the interest of Anatoly Karpov and Bobby Fischer to play a match.

I ask you: How can anyone be fooled by the nonsense of InfoCheck ??

ChessHistorian 06:42, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

ChessHistorian- If you successfully raised $15 million US, then why was the tournament that would have immortalized Gothic Chess cancelled?

Misplaced Pages administrator(s)- Can you imagine what it is like to deal with this caliber of nonsense upon several Misplaced Pages pages nonstop?

--InfoCheck

I can answer this question. First off, ChessHistorian is just a newspaper reporter. He had nothing to do with raising any money for the match. He knew nothing about Ed Trice until the game of checker was solved. Secondly, Anatoly Karpov signed the agreement to play as shown here http://www.gothicchess.com/images/Karpov_Signature.jpg so the match was underway. Thirdly, if you read their blog at http://gothicchess.blogspot.com/ you will have all of your questions answered in time. It was a very long process to get this match put together, over two years. The short answer why it came undone: Fischer wouldn't sign anything, typical Bobby. That's all. Trice and Fischer have had contact since the match fell apart. He was there to wish Fischer a happy 64th birhday for example.

GothicEnthusiast 16:27, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

GothicEnthusiast- While The Gothic Chess Federation was trying to make this event materialize, I read information provided by Ed Trice that Susan Polgar was lined-up as an alternate in case either Karpov or Fischer backed-out. So, what happened?

--InfoCheck

You read only what you want to read, that's the problem. Susan Polgar was not the replacement if Fischer did not sign the contract. If Fischer did not sign the contract, there was no match. Susan Polgar was the replacement if Fischer signed the contract, the match was in place, and Fischer never showed up.

GothicEnthusiast 05:22, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

ChessHistorian, the relationship has been explained to you a few times, the latest time probably being shown in this diff. Of course, you later deleted the explanation, which could be why you have the mental image that no one has explained it to you. —ZeroOne (talk / @) 08:19, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

This situation is a mess. There's definitely a highly involved, tighly agreeing group working the gothic chess pages. I'm concerned by things like ] this, where the owner/creator/promoter advocates letting him have more control of the images released about his own prouct. The talk page at gothic chess reads to me as thick with CoI, and not particularly willing to listen to new ideas from outside their group. Are these two ugly cousins closely related enough to be on each other's pages? Sure looks like it to me. SHould they be on each other's pages? either all of the Capablanca chess variants can cross-link freely as appropriate by article, or none of them should, instead referring readers to a list of Capablanca Chess variants. As it is unneccesarily cumbersome to avoid referencing other variants, I'd say let them be discussed freely. That a group works together to block edits ot the page by spreading their reverts around isn't ethical, it's an end run around the 3RR. When the talk page is likewise a bullying ground for a few closely aligned thinkers, it's even tougher. I don't think the 3RR Violation is blockable at this point (preventative, not punative; and editor in discussion regarding issue), I think the editor in violation should've brought the whole mess to one of WIkipedia's resources for assistance before. Probably not AN or AN/I, but maybe help desk or village pump. It's tough to hlp edit when you're hitting serious, and CoI-based, resistance. ThuranX 15:45, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

ThuranX I looked at ] and I just don't understand the concern. What was so morally indefensible about that discussion? It's just people chatting about an image of a board. And what is "thick with Col"?? I don't understand this terminology.

By the way, many of the people you say are "unwilling to listen" are more than willing to listen. But there is nothing of substance being offered, and the people to whom this is demonstrated do not furnish backup for the things they're trying to add to the page. For example, that one nuisance who insists on claiming his chess variant belongs there.

Why does it belong?

He claims it is similar to Gothic Chess. He, the person who made it, the person was has a POV.

The following people did not merely say "it should not belong", they offered reasons:

ChessHistorian a reporter for the Baltimore Sun

Andreas Kaufmann a highly skilled variant player from Germany who is 1 of only 4 people to have defeated the game's inventor

GothicEnthusiast myself, a strong Gothic Chess player as you can see from here http://www.gothicchesslive.com/one-players-games.php?id=174 I am just one rung below Bobby Fischer on the site, which you can see sorted by rating here: http://www.gothicchesslive.com/players-games.php

GothicChessInventor who published several important papers in artifical intelligence, helped solve the game of checkers (see http://www.cs.ualberta.ca/~chinook/thankyou/ ), who invented the game of Gothic Chess, and who understands the game and those that are similar to it more than anybody in the world.

Please note:

All of us agree that Embassy Chess belongs on there, as does Capablanca Random Chess. All of us agree that the other variant DOES NOT belong there, for the numerous reasons cited here and on the Talk page of Gothic Chess.

That other variant is a Capablanca Random Chess variant. It has no bearing, similarity, or likeness to Gothic Chess.

All of the other ranting and raving is moot. It's not the same. It doesn't belong.

Where does it belong? On the Capablanca Random Chess page. It is a CRC variant by the author's own admissions.

Let it stay there, where it belongs.

GothicEnthusiast 16:17, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Let's not. The inventor of the game is advocating that HE be in control of the images used in the article. HE regularly monitors and edits the product for his own page. HE states that HE will take the pictures to be used, and so on. This is a CoI, a Conflict of Interest, in which a person with significant financial and commercial interest in the article is shaping the way it is written, to the level where other people's contributions are being critiqued one by one and reviewed like this is an advertisement. Finally, as described above, There is the Set of Chess. there is subset, chess variants, subset Capablanca Variants, subset Gothic, Subsets Embassy and capablanca Random. As Capablanca random is a subset of Gothic as you describe, and Optimized is a subset of Capablance random, then the subset of optimized Chess is also a subset of gothic. don't see why it wouldn't belong. ThuranX 03:10, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Ed Trice is not saying any of those things that you mentioned. You are obviously misreading the thread. He asked people which images they liked. In effect, he called for a vote. When there was an agreement, he said he would put the image up on Misplaced Pages. Have you ever communicated directly with him? I have. He said he only looks at the page when he gets calls from concerned people or if he is "emailed to death" (his words) by Gothic Chess players who see something awry. Your hierarchy of sets and subsets seems off. It should be something like this

Chess

All Chess Variants

Capablanca Chess Inspired Variants (This is Gothic Chess, Capablanca Random Chess, and others)

At which point we have other branches at this level, and also below the level

Chess

All Chess Variants

Gothic Chess

Embassy Chess (Embassy was invented as a means to circumvent the Gothic Chess patent only, so it "springs from" Gothic, even though, otherwise, it would be at the same level if it was invented stand alone)

Another path would be

Chess

All Chess Variants

Capablanca Random Chess

Optimized Chess (this descends from CRC and neither Gothic nor Embassy, because Gothic pre-existed Embassy, Optimized Chess is very different from both Gothic and Embassy, and Optimized Chess came after CRC, and one can only say that Optimized Chess looks like an ordinary, random, CRC creation.)

For the above reasons, from a historical perspective (of which I am very aware) the sets you mention are not 100% reflecting the accuracy of the variants' respective chronologies.

ChessHistorian 03:38, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

I wasn't addressing the subsets in terms of chronolgies, but nice attempt to recast my commentary. have to be bluntly honest here. This tactic which I've noted in the talk page there, and the AN/I here is to come back with a variant move on any ideas proposed. I address admissions of how the games evolved relative to each other, you reply that my list doesn't go chronologically, which I never implied it had. Not really an endearing behavior, but I've noticed this sort of You're talking about A, so I'll put you on the defensive by interpreting and responding to B.

To all interested parties, a related AfD is found here, regarding the Optimized Chess article, and in the discussions, the future of many, if not all of these minutely differentiated variations on the theme. ThuranX 05:16, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

ThuranX how is it that this statement:

Finally, it is so well designed, it is one of only two Capablanca chess variants that has been awarded with a fault-free rating via the select CRC analysis tool.

Has you completely fooled? The guy who invented the CRC analysis tool nominated his own game for the "fault free" award. Optimized Chess has been nominated for deletion. Nobody plays the game. Not even the guy who invented it. as stated repeatedly, there is not one photograph of one person playing one game of it.

ChessHistorian 16:59, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

You know, this condescending 'oh, look at this buffoon who's trying to get involved, yet cannot possibly be smart enough to paly OUR chess much less see that we are clearly so right nad the other so clearly wrong' attitude is getting insulting. I'm reading quite clearly. You don't like him or his game. I get it. IDONTLIKEIT is NOT a valid reason for much of anything here on Misplaced Pages. He plays his own game, I've yet to hear or see proof he doesn't, so don't use hyperbole. Second, there's no photo of Bigfoot, yet wikipedia has an article. So, we don't have a picture to go with the article isn't a reason. Ultimately, this comes down to ' I made my game, and Iwill protect my right to advertise it on wikipedia', 'We support his right to protect his advertisement on wikipedia', and 'we all don't want that guy diluting our profit margin by adding HIS info on HIS game to our advertisement on wikipedia.'. I'm really tired of this. It's quite apparent that Ed Trice is protecting his product's article on Misplaced Pages, to maximize his profit. that's a Conflict of Interest. It's apparent that the chess reporter for the Baltimore Sun is going to stick up for his reporting and subject of his article in a way that's frankly bizarre, and should probably be brought to the attention of his editors. That may well be another COI. So two guys with COI problems against a guy who's also talkin about HIS game. I'm done trying to sort this mess of COI out, let an admin block all of you. ThuranX 19:22, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

ThuranX your reaction is that of someone who lost a debate by a huge margin, then you just attempt a smear campaign. You overlooked something huge. The guy who nominated his own game with 0 followers for the "fault-free" award that he created is enough to embarrass anyone. Trust me, I know why you are ashamed of yourself for supporting the wrong side of the debate. Perception of condescension when there is none is a sign of an insecure person. The people who are posting remarks about the legitmacy of Gothic Chess are giants in the field of artificial intelligence, successful business owners, strong chess players, and computer science wizards. There is only 1 person backing the absurd variant trying to get his little link on the Gothic Chess page, and that is the person who invented it. There are no reasons to have that ridiculous game on the Gothic Chess page. The game isn't even played by anyone, including that game's inventor! You would think if he game is "so worthy" he could at least show someone playing it. Just one person.

The fact that nobody plays Optimized Chess is proof that is was just designed on paper. That game does not exist in the real world.

Look, we're all for it having its own little page somewhere. That's fine. Just don't say it belongs on the Gothic Chess page when that is just an absurd point of view.

I am also surprised that so many of these Misplaced Pages editors have such thin skins. Someone refutes your arguments, and refutes them thoroughly, and you go sulk, or try and rally support in numbers to oppose the people who are in the know about something. So what if you never wrote a computer program. So what if you never met former World Chess Champions or played games of your own variant with them and are photographed with them and had a multi-million dollar match arranged. When these topics arise, just respectfully acknowledge that maybe the posters who are supplying material to Misplaced Pages might know a little bit more than you on the subject.

If Misplaced Pages editing becomes a clique that is politically motivated to retaliate because someone who is more knowledgeable in some area rebukes someone within your circle of friends, it won't last. OK, people should use more moderate tones when offering feedback, but you more experienced writers should no better than to just gang up on these "know-it-alls".

Gothic Chess's page does not suffer from any Conflict of Interest posts. It suffers from detractors posting baiting attacks waiting for the supports to retaliate, then the baiters say "Look what they said, look what they said."

Special interest in the Senate is what killed Rome. Rome was big. Misplaced Pages is big. How widespread is the special interest? Time will tell.

GothicEnthusiast 05:41, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Excuse you. Your condescending attitude continues to pervade this discussion. All the 'evidence' above is YOUR assertion, based wholely, as far as I can tell, on two things. You don't like him and his version of your game, and he lcks a picture of the game being played in some tournament. That's hardly enough to validate your position. Your citations of the credentials of experts on OTHER variations and so on is not relevant to disproving the validity of this topic. Finally, all of that noise about how stupid I am to get fooled is insulting and hardly relevant to this discussion. Please focus on a clear explanation of why the game is not notable and so on, one NOT basede on arguments from authority, or arguments from special knowledge. If you can't, don't reply. I don't need to be called an idiot again. ThuranX 01:33, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Legal threats - please banhammer

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Jacksbernstein (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). User has not retracted the threats after being informed (in reply to such threats) in accordance with WP:NLT. See . MER-C 13:09, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Account blocked, that diff was definitely a legal threat. Please feel free to unblock or pursue a different course, I don't want to interfere with any official action. ˉˉ╦╩ 15:12, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

You beat me to it. I support keeping this one blocked, all his other edits were disruptive anyway. I have redacted the personal attacks and threats.⇒ SWATJester 15:22, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

What about this vandal anonimu (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)? --BOT2008BOT 15:16, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Anonimu has nothing to do with this... please don't crosspost your report into other threads.--Isotope23 15:20, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Indef ban evasion?

TheInnocenceProject (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Strongly appears to be a sock of User:Jacksbernstein, who was indef-banned for legal threats on Richard Rossi, and who made identical edits. THF 22:01, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Editing pattern matches enough for a block. Indef'd. ~Kylu (u|t) 03:47, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Further indef ban evasion?

• Wikifixeditor (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Just added a CSD and prod notice to Richard Rossi as his first edit. THF 18:08, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Too obvious. Blocked - Alison ☺ 00:10, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

National Liberation Front (Macedonia)

I think, there is a problem with cleaning of sourced info and political propaganda from a user "Revisionist"! Jingby 14:01, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

I need help and administrative mediation in resolving the problem with vandalism by user Лилјак and some others who are constantly vandalising and spaming all articles related with Macedonia. The article that I wrote National Liberation Front (Macedonia), was moved several times, and Nazi propagandist pictures were being imputed. Also there was constant three-revert rule violation on the article National Liberation Front (Macedonia) by users Jingby and 124.168.106.129. Needed administrative mediation. Revizionist 21:16, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

I'd suggest you both (mutually) start a case at one of the mediation groups, either Mediation Cabal or Mediation Committee. If you're all willing to compromise and work towards making the article neutral, there's a good chance that nobody will have to be blocked for anything and you all end up with an article that is both neutral and informative. That'd be a nice outcome, different from so many cases where someone gets banned from the site forever, don't you think? ~Kylu (u|t) 14:44, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Matt57 (talk · contribs) odd behavior

Since Matt57's participation in Elonka's recent RfA he seems to have become obsessed. First, he added articles about her ancestors to his user page calling it "Articles to clean up for Elonka" . Today he's been going through some of those articles stubbifying them with claims of OR and the inability to verify references that do not host an online copy (newspapers from the 1940's so this is hardly surprising). Despite several other editors trying to reason with him and even cleaning up the articles and providing inline citations for clarity he continued to revert. He's now created the sock User:MiiMiiM to continue reverting, especially since he'd reached 3 reverts on Antoni Dunin. It very telling that this new account responds "I can and I will" to me asking Matt not to remove references just because they don't have an online source (old Detroit News, New York Times etc.) .

I've been involved reverting his actions and cleaning up the articles, so I don't want to block him myself. Can someone take a look and help out please? He's feeling that everyone who's tried to talk to him so far is biased, so perhaps an uninvolved party can try reasoning with him before this gets further out of hand? Shell 04:01, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm trying to sort this out. Matt57 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) stopped editing at 03:33 today, then MiiMiiM (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) was born at 03:37 and immediately began editing the same articles. Raymond Arritt 04:09, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

I've blocked two socks and the main account for 48 hours.--Chaser - T 04:20, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

I've reverted a few ofthe articles to before Matt57/MiiMiiM's edits, per multiple editors (across all pages) assertions that citation, not inline citation, nor online citation, is what is needed. since all articles seem mostly sourced, the use of a few cite needed tags is probably what is in order for contested areas, not rampant blankings... ThuranX 04:50, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

The first edits of User:MiiMiis suggest that Matt57 may have been set up by one of our resident banned jokesters: this is hardly a credible slip-up.Proabivouac 04:54, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

OK, I've now semi-protected affected articles and unblocked Matt57 until the checkuser comes back. There's a credible claim that Matt didn't create the other accounts.--Chaser - T 04:55, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Sounds good. I stand by my reverts though, as they address the underlying problem, that Matt57 seems to be 'after' Elonka, regardless of the actual policies about citation, which will continue to be problematic, regardless of sock activity and frame-ups. that issue should still be resolved. ThuranX 05:20, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, there's a growing issue here aside from this sockpuppetry. I would appreciate an uninvolved admin reviewing Matt57's recent behaviour regarding Elonka and articles connected to her. He seems to be alone in the approach he is taking to those articles, and willing to edit war with the numerous editors who have reverted him. In my opinion, at best he's being obstinate and heavy handed, at worse the narrow minded focus on an editor he has been in conflict with is amounting to harassment. WjBscribe 05:31, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Those "sockpuppets" seem like sure set-ups, but in any case Matt's conduct falls quite soundly into his pattern of wikistalking editors that he has had content disputes with (he stalked me, SlimVirgin, and others). Essentially he has been wikistalking Elonka because she disagreed with including unnecessary (but offensive to some Muslims) pictures of Mohammad in some article. Aggressive opposition at her RfA can be expected, but going on to tear apart articles about her relations and herself is just going way too far. It is hard to assume good faith considering the previous incidents. This is definitely the most severe case of wikistalking I have seen from this editor, and it is quite disappointing that he has done this even after being warned after his past violation . Editors are supposed to cut down on such behavior after receiving a community warning instead of stepping it up a notch. The Behnam 06:20, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

So... week long block for him to cool off and evaluate if he really wants to continue to work on Misplaced Pages? If it's so upseetting to him to work with some editors, he needs to figure out his feelings on the project. ThuranX 06:32, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

That would be an appropriate response to an editor who continues such misconduct even after a stern warning. He needs to learn that he must show respect for other editors, even if he disagrees with them, if he wants to volunteer here. I've tried to think of some sort of creative alternative, such as a topical ban on anything Dunin-related, but I fear that would be more of a treatment than a cure. A traditional block seems the best next step towards a cure in this situation. The warning (the first step) was ignored. Anyway, I'll stop here and leave it to the admins to decide what is the best approach. Thanks in advance for any attempts to deal with this problem. Regards, The Behnam 07:16, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

A week is way to harsh. -- Ned Scott 07:31, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Matt57 is a smart fellow who, I believe, has no intention operating outside of the law, so to speak. As far as I can discern, he believes he is doing the right thing by challenging what he sees as vanity material. Though for my part I assume that Elonka should have made a fine adminstrator (and perhaps will be one not too long from today,) there may be some merit to what Matt57 is doing, even if and though it is socially ill-advised - everyone is feeling bad for Elonka, Matt57 was pretty rough on her during the RfA, and now he's after "her articles"…but then the acceptance of that last connection sort of admits that there might be the very same problem here that Matt57 is perceiving. I suggest instead an RfC or similar mode of discussion on this issue, either of Matt57's behavior, or the Dunin articles, or both.

COI concerns played a significant role in the RfA, and nearly led me to oppose. The problem isn't going away on its own, and, though I see the social problem, I'm tempted to credit him for taking the initiative to bringing it to the fore. Sympathy over a narrowly-failed (and socked to significant effect) RfA isn't a good reason to maintain material in mainspace, actuall, and, given the tone of this thread, I don't think that it can reasonably be denied that this plays a role here. If Matt57 is said to be harassing Elonka, we should be able to show this without reference to the "Elonka articles" (though naturally were he adding negative material, this would be a different story, per WP:BLP.)Proabivouac 07:57, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

While I admire the impartiality of this analysis, it doesn't explain why several experienced Wikipedians gave credence to the idea that these sockpuppets were run by an experienced editor. The answer, I think, was that Matt had been rejecting feedback from a variety of people who were attempting to counsel him. There are better ways to resolve an issue than the methods he tried, and both the timing and specificity suggest he was personalizing a dispute rather than acting upon principle. (Caveats: I conominated Elonka's RFA and disagree with Matt's policy interpretation on Muhammad images). It's also important to bear in mind that one editor's attribution of a set of biographies as the "Elonka articles" doesn't mean she's violating any guideline or policy; she hasn't edited those pages in over a year. I don't think Matt's acting in genuine bad faith, yet one thing that makes this difficult is that an editor who did act in bad faith would choose precisely this strategy to undermine her. She's damned if she does edit, damned if she doesn't, and the community's attention gets focused around the proposal that she's doing something wrong. She can't help that she's descended from European nobility any more than I can change being descended from a long line of beer drinking peasants. The latter heritage appears to be an advantage at this site. Durova 08:34, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

"...it doesn't explain why several experienced Wikipedians gave credence to the idea that these sockpuppets were run by an experienced editor." No, and I don't find your analysis completely convincing. There seems to be an ironic asymmetry in the assumption of good faith we extend to new and to established users. Tom Harrison 23:28, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

I appreciate Proabivouac's take on the situation, but I'd like to point out that Matt was also removing third-party sources like the New York Times because he couldn't read it online. Had he researched the references and removed any unsourced material (even if that material was only sourced to elonka.com), I would be more inclined to support his actions, however, this behavior steps a bit past the bounds of dealing with supposed COI issues. Choosing to edit war with multiple editors on multiple articles even while discussions and cleanup of the articles was ongoing wasn't the best course of action, but if he's agreed to stop the disruption and engage in discussion again, there shouldn't be any reason to punitively block him. Shell 13:47, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Sounds reasonable.

"Matt was also removing third-party sources like the New York Times because he couldn't read it online."

I'm not certain which diffs you refer to here, but if he did so, that's pushing it too far: we cite books all the time.Proabivouac 01:59, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Shell Kinney, if you're talking about this diff, that NYT article 1) is from Elonka.com 2) says nothing whatsoever about Stanley Dunin. Matt57 is right: that's spam.Proabivouac 04:32, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

I came across Matt57 quite recently on an unrelated matter. My final conclusion was that he needed to learn how to relate to other people. He gave me orders as to what to AfD, then orders as to what to do with the time I spend online, and folllowed this up by accusing me of lying, quite out of the blue (at which I finally flipped). I was not surprised to see this thread, the message of which seems to be that Matt57 needs to learn the meaning of the word tact. Misplaced Pages is a project where we simply have to be able to work with each other, at least from time to time. Moreschi 13:36, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

In response to Probivouac: I had no idea about the RfA stuff till I read through this. I watch AN/I as a nosy non-admin. My biggest concerns with this report were the sock use, which has been resolved, at least as relates to Matt57's actions, though who's trying to 'get' Matt57 needs resolution), and the BLP/citation issue. Matt57's refusal to listen regarding both inline and on-line citation requirements for articles, and that you don't need either, so long as you have good citation is a problem to me. Then, in reading through all this stuff, and seeing that he's established a category of articles to 'get', all of which connect directly to an editor with whom he's got an aze to grind, all looks bad. I have NO clue, nor do I really feel like looking back through archives and histories to figure it all out. All I see is:

There is an editor who maintains a list of articles related to another editor, with whome the first has big problems. He regularly blanks vast portions of the articles on that list claiming they lack citation. His interpretation of lack of citation is a lack of inline citations, and/or an inability to instantly verify citations via internet links.

As such, I see a personal conflict affecting Misplaced Pages articles. I see blanking vandalism. (Not in the first edit, but in the reversions to blanked versions after he's been counseled.) And I see deliberate ostrich behavior regarding policy (citation). All three are problems which can result in blocks. All three together from an established editor is significantly block-worthy. If a week is too harsh, 72 hours. But to let this pass is farcical. And citing that time has passed while this was debated isn't fair either. I agree that discussion eliminated a major concern, sock puppetry. but the rest is clearly Matt57's own actions, for which he should recieve consequences, and quickly. ThuranX 14:09, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Behnam, please lay off your stalking allegations off me. If I talk to an editor about something, that doesnt mean I'm stalking them. Elonka's unreferenced articles have been a pain for her as well as for everyone else who sees them as "vanispam". I'm dealing with this now. Whats the big deal? You dont need to jump in at every excuse to try to get me blocked. I havent even talked to you in a long time so I dont know where that came from. Maybe you have me on your watchlist or something. Stop harrassing me now and try to forget about me. --Matt57 03:49, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Matt57, you might want to address the other issues raised in this thread.Proabivouac 03:51, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Ok about the Elonka articles? 500 friends of Elonka keep blind reverting me on her family articles, where I put in OR tags, or deleted OR. I contacted Elonka and for a week, she did not respond to my question to her of what she thought about her family articles affair. So I went and started an RfC yesterday. Sounds reasonable, right? She finally responded to something I asked her on her so I'm going to deal with all that. I dont know what big deal is here. People need to stop rushing in to "defend" their friend's family articles. If it was any other article no one would have cared. What Elonka did was a gross violiation of COI and its all still there and probably will remain there and will remain a problem for her. All I'm doing is making sure everything unreferenced goes away. If Antoni Dunin passes the test and remains the same after my investigations, I'll forget about all the other articles. Everything sounds reasonable here. As for my taking out NY Times references, I have never taken out any referenced statements. I've been fair and asked people for 3rd party opinions including the RfC, so I dont know why people are making a big deal out of this. I'm doing my best to be impartial and apply policies fairly, while people on the other hand are being defensive and jumping in to bring back unreferenced text and COI problems - who's wrong me or them? Again, there's no big deal now, inspite of 500 people jumping on me. If Antoni Dunin passes the test, I'll leave the other articles alone. If it doesnt, even then I'll leave the other articles alone, becuase I'll have proven my point that this was stuff that doesnt belong in an encyclopedia and as many people have said, it was all vanispam. If everything comes out referenced and strong in the end, ofcourse I'll accept that it belongs here. And I dont want to go on 20 pages about what I'm doing at Elonka's articles. If you want to discuss something, use the talk pages of the articles. Any other issues to respond to? And if all I wanted to do is edit war at Elonka's articles, I would still be doing it. Why am I not, people? Does the fact that I've asked for 3rd party opinions tell you anything? Please, calm down on this Elonka affair now. --Matt57 04:10, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

"If you want to discuss something, use the talk pages of the articles."

Good advice. Looking at the relevant talk pages, I see nothing but Matt57 waiting to talk to the rest of the editors in this thread.Proabivouac 04:35, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Having just taken a closer look at Stanley Dunin, I've made a few changes myself. Here are the diffs.

Also, I've posted on talk, in case anyone would like to respond.

Several cites which mention Stanley Dunin not at all, another praiseful article which is about Elonka Dunin, mentioning Stanley only in passing…Proabivouac 04:53, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Pro's edits better demonstrate how Matt57 could have handled this situation; removing truly dubious sources, noting it on talk, and then waiting, instead of rampant blanking. ThuranX 08:11, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

RfCU

Note: Cheszmastre (talk · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki), who created Matt57's sockpuppet page, is likely a sockpuppet of User:His excellency.Proabivouac 20:32, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Cheszmastre is clearly His excellency. I have indefinitely blocked the account. Tom Harrison 23:22, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, Tom harrison. Meanwhile, the checkuser is back: Misplaced Pages:Requests for checkuser/Case/Matt57Proabivouac 00:05, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Glad that part's settled. Now about Matt 57's own questionable actions and edits? ThuranX 02:40, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

ThuranX, that banned trolls are successfully tricking us into blocking established editors is hardly a trivial matter; indeed, if the first post herein is any guide, that is why this thread was opened to begin with.Proabivouac 02:43, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

I just got an e-mail from Chezmastre confirmed to be from banned User:Kirbytime. As the other socks are CU-confirmed as His excellency, and Chezmastre's edit pattern is obviously reminiscent of His excellency, I'm not certain if this means that CM was Kirbytime the whole time impersonating His excellency, or if His excellency handed him the account mid-stream (why not, it's blocked?) Either way, we are looking at a coordinated attack on Matt57 from two banned trolls.Proabivouac 03:17, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Pro, I wasn't being dismissive of the frameing up of Matt57 by two banned users; I meant hat since this AN/I report dealt with two allegations: the overreaction to the Dunin articles, and their connection to Elonka, and the possible use of Socks to support such edits, and since one hd been proven to NOT be Matt57, we should now focus here on that part which applied to Matt57, as other processes were now dealing with the other part. having proved it's not Matt57's own actions, we'd divorced the socks from the tendetious, and I wanted to focus on the tendentious. I had little doubt that the RFCU would be followed up by appropriate blocks and that a note of the attacks on Matt57 would be noted. AN/I's thorough in that way most of the time. that's all I meant by that, not that I thought that problem was neglible, but that I thought it was being handled, and we should turn our focus to the other part which DID relate to Matt57. that's all. ThuranX 08:11, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

This whole report is bogus because its crux lies on actions of sockpuppets which people thought were mine. Forget this incident and move on. I expect you to use talk at Antoni Dunin if you have any problems on that article about anything I did there. --Matt57 11:46, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

(Undent) NO it's not. There were two issues here.

1. Your edits against Elonka's relatives' articles, as evidenced by that list on your user page and your edit history.
2. The edits of what was believed to be your sockpuppet.

The second has been resolved, the first has not. ThuranX 04:19, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

You may wish to comment here. It is possible that this discussion will lead to an RfC. Currently, there does appear to be any situation which requires the attention of administrator.Proabivouac 04:57, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

ThuranX, I've responded to the Elonka articles issue. If you have further problems, use my talk section. --Matt57 13:34, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

No, I will NOT whitewash this off the AN/I. There are charges against you, and you haven't responded to them. You said 'I didn't do anything wrong, no one responded to my talk page', that's no response. You didn't start that until you knew you were in trouble. Your blatant vendetta blanking against her has managed to go unpunished, so it's clear you've gotten away with it. I have ZERO doubt that you'll start blanking her again, and point to this toothless unresolved AN/I as 'proof' that no one found wrongdoing. I did, but I'm not an Admin, or you'd have been blocked for quite some time for this. As to your ONLY comment on the matter above, I don't KNOW elonka, I'm NOT one of her 'friends', I'm just objecting to the wholesale blanking of articles to get even with her. At least one comment in this section will demonstrate that the core issue, your blanking, was unresolved. I find your canvassing to get this moved OFF AN/I to be of questionable ethics. You don't get to choose where actions against you are resolved. ThuranX 15:00, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Please calm down and most of all, AGF. "blanking vendetta"? That was removal of unreferenced OR. If you have any concerns with any specific blanking I did, then use the talk pages of the articles. You're saying that I'm "canvassing" by telling people to use my talk page? Thats funny. Anyway, I'll be dealing with Antoni Dunin as my first article so if you're interested to know what I'm doing there, please keep watching that page, and I welcome your comments if you think I did anything wrong. Do see the talk page of that article and if you know of any reliable sources for Antoni Dunin than the other two we have there, please add them to the article and bring it up on talk. --Matt57 15:17, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

In reality, Matt hasn't done anything wrong here, besides trying to pressure Elonka on her own talk page regarding these articles. His choice to edit those articles, so long as he does so within policy, is his right as a Wikipedian. As long as he leaves Elonka alone about it, there should be no issue. -- Ned Scott 00:08, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

And removing large chunks of OR from these articles is something even Jimbo Wales has had to do. . -- Ned Scott 00:10, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Fine. I tried to keep his actions on task, there's no BLP on long dead people, and his attitude is one of a vendetta, but hey, since there was another issue more easily solved, I guess we all put iour heads in the sand about the other. I spoke up, I was dismissed. I'm moving on. ThuranX 01:35, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Can somebody persuade User:Digwuren to follow WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA

I was trying to explain to User:Digwuren that it is uncivil to revert good faith edits of established user's with the edit summaries like that or that or to remove sourced info like that with the only explanation: "removing someditor's propaganda". I guess I failed. Since I have a few editorial conflicts with the user he might assume bad faith from my part.

It also seem to be a recurring problem. Recently he was blocked for a week for incivility then unblocked with the summary having consulted blocking admin, this user is unblocked to participate in RFC and/or mediation cases ONLY. reblock if user abuses this trust. I do not see much of a participation in the RfC mentioned, but see other admins complaining about false vandal accusations as well as him been just under the 3RR limit on a number of articles. Can some neutral admin do something about him? Alex Bakharev 05:52, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

I request that any admin evaluating this, would take a deep hard look into matters before deciding. Alex is rather biased in this matter...--Alexia Death 06:21, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Alex is not truthful either, claiming Digwuren was blocked for one week for "incivility", he has never been blocked for incivility as the block log indicates:. Martintg 06:42, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

He was blocked for "tendentious editing and edit warring" which for all intents and purposes is the same thing in the context. -- Grafikm 12:10, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

The task is hopeless. Only the community block will solve the problem. Especially as there are scores of meatpuppets ("Tartu University accounts") who support Digwuren's tendentious activities and effectively encourage his disruptive behaviour in the project. --Ghirla 08:28, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

I second an opinion about hopelessness of the task but, being relatively newbie to wikipedia, am not sure what community block means. From technical viewpoint, I (very weakly)support an idea that any edit from Tartu Uni IP address (or even from any user who ever used Tartu Uni's IP) must be scrutinized closely, as this group has well proven track of disruptive behaviour. But I don't put much faith in the technical measures here. Group's insistence on presenting any Estonia-related viewpoint only through eyes of Estonian commentators (as in and and ) speaks for it's organic inability to grasp the very concept of difference in opinions. And I believe that student (or former student) of Tartu University can google "proxy server"RJ CG 14:46, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

I second Alex's request, this user is constantly disrupting a whole segment of WP. I suggest some uninvolved admins look into this matter closer. Besides, Deskana unblocked him only "to participate in RFC and/or mediation cases ONLY." and adding that one should "reblock if user abuses this trust" (see unblock summary). I believe it is the case here. -- Grafikm 12:10, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

That condition of the block expired along with the initial block that was for two weeks, leaving one week under this condition. Digwuren may be a bit strong at times but so are the opponents. The admin ruling on this better be neutral...--Alexia Death 12:15, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

"Opponents?" Gee whiz, but I thought we were all fellow editors. If you come here to fight your opponents, then you're coming here for the wrong reason. Uninvolved admins have investigated, and they blocked. This is a repeat of previous bad behavior. Geogre 13:29, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

In fact, three uninvolved administrators have blocked this account in the past, and all three did so for the same issues: such zeal to a particularly contentious and controversial point of view that it is disruptive to Misplaced Pages. Given the number of people blocking, this may be best handled at Community Blocks than AN/I. It would be good, though, to hear from Deskana and FassalF. Geogre 13:34, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

I must note that Alex's report is a bit exaggerated. I don't see clear signs of incivility but instead i do see that those edits summaries as signs of non-stop disruptive editing. It seems that Digwuren hasn't learned anything from previous blocks.

I must also note that during his block period back on July, my connected laptop faced intrusion attempts from Tallinn (i'm keeping more details to myself). If any admin (preferably an uninvolved admin) would like to see this evidence s/he'd just drop me an email. Note also that i haven't even intended to talk about this incident as i considered it part of "Digwuren being mad about being blocked" but now i see that Digwuren is still using questionable tactics to deal w/ situations here.

Alexia! Opponents? No, please have a look at WP:BATTLE. Digwuren, you stop that behavior of calling others vandals immediately or you'll find yourself on the bench again. I am afraid this time it would be hard to swallow. -- FayssalF - 14:43, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Accusations of some estonian trying to hack you for the block are very strong and shouldn't be thrown around so easily. Suva 15:41, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

IF your'e having a dispute with someone, that someone is your OPPONENT. Whats wrong with that? In every debate there are opponents. I don't understand what it has to do with WP:BATTLE.--Alexia Death the Grey 19:52, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Do you want me to tell you about the exact location of the intruder? No, i am sorry. I told you above that any admin is free to pursue this and verify it. I've got all the supported material. I've also told you that i had no intention to talk about this. So what do you mean by so easily? Are you willing to go further? -- FayssalF - 17:16, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes I want to know the exact location of intruder. AFAIK most other editors except me are located in Tartu, and I don't remember trying to intrude anyones laptop at that period of time. Also, this kind of accusation would leave pretty bad mark on someones reputation. And I don't want my and other honest editors reputation to be touched for something we haven't done. Suva 17:47, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Are you an admin? If yes, have you sent me a request via email? -- FayssalF - 11:45, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Not to mention, as none of us is an admin, it would be impossible for us to know your IP. And, as for what Ghirla so endearingly calls us "Tartu University accounts" (always failing to give any proof whatsoever... but that is his tactic to make others look bad, I guess), I think I am the only user out of those who has a Tallinn IP occasionally.

As for Digwuren, considering what he has been forced to go though by these single-purpose POV-pushers... you really cannot condemn him. Sure, his edit summaries could be much more civil - that has been told to him repeatedly. I recommend an admin to make a clear warning about those - and then follow his edit summaries for a month, blocking or warning him as needed. Other then that, I see no difference in comparison with RJ CG behavior - except that Digwuren is not blindly pushing his personal POV, but attempts to show facts/arguments from both sides. Sander Säde 16:01, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Not to mention, as none of us is an admin, it would be impossible for us to know your IP. I've told you above that i've got all the supported material. I am telling you again that these are secondary things to me. What i believe is that repetitive and disruptive editing means a block. Are you willing to go further? -- FayssalF - 17:16, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Yawwn... Should I respond with accusation of POV-pushing too? Probably I should, at least in order to prevent any future occurence of banning on the grounds so unique and laughable some completely unrelated wikipedian ridiculed them on my talk page ? But this is so booring, to go through the same song in the millionth time. Instead I'll try once more to summarize my view on a possible resolution of this mess. Let's agree that we all have our POVs and we're not in a totalitarian country, where having a POV is a crime. Let's also agree that my POV may be different from yours, which is OK. I also understand that such topic as Estonia's role in WWII (fight for independence, unlike in let's say, Poland, was so interwoven with collaboration that same event can be viewed as either freedom fighting or quislingism, so to speak) is controversial by it's nature. Therefore I propose to let both POVs co-exist in an article. For example, Estonians want to commemorate Erna? Fine. But let's add the Russian position here without pro-Estonian edits. If the Russian arguments are laughable and controversy artificial, it will be evident. If they have merits, they will be assessed as such. But it is up to reader to decide. Misplaced Pages is neither Russian nor Estonian propaganda tool. I believe this approach (imperfectly) works for articles dealing with a Middle Eastern conflict, why shouldn't it here.RJ CG 16:26, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Not to mention the recent appearance of Ptrt (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) an SPA solely devoted to support Digwuren in edit wars. --Irpen 16:23, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Sorry? Do I understand correctly that I have somehow stepped over a certain invisible border, questioning some topics or edits from people, which or who are obviously not to be questioned? My apologies for my appearance (like I see, that is considered really bad) and having opinions that are considered not acceptable. Thank you. Ptrt 16:53, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

I believe he was referring to your edit history http://en.wikipedia.org/Special:Contributions/Ptrt]. 1st hit - to protect Digwuren in an edit dispute. 2nd hit - to protect Digwuren in an edit dispute. 3rd and 4th hits - to protect Digwuren in an edit dispute. 5th and 6th hits - to protect Digwuren in an edit dispute. All edits are reverts of my edits. Then one unrelated edit, bunch of reverts to protect Digwuren in an edit disputes and flurry of activity here. Grand total of not acting as stalker of yours truly and Digwuren's supporter - one. Don't you see a trend yourself? RJ CG 18:02, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Before continuing here, I'd still would like at least one of the accusers be bold enough and state clearly, what have I done wrong? Disagreeing with their views (what coincidentally did look like supporting their arch-enemy, the dreaded Digwuren)? I was thinking that Misplaced Pages was more about content then social network, so I have not thought very much about supporting (or confronting) of other users, it's more about their edits and content they create.
Irpen, I presume that you would like to include also me in your RfAr (as my name appears there) - but then I have to politely ask you to change the name of your case to reflect more that it's really about. This could be disappointment for you, but I'm not from Tartu, I'm never studied at Tartu University, I have never belonged to any Korp! and (last but not least) have never met nor communicated otherwise with users who seem to share these constant accusations (what is interesting: always from one certain group of users, with strikingly similar thinking and world view), almost always for "not writing like we'd like it" (sorry, but that's the only common enough reason I could find). Ptrt 21:39, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

And the immediate appearance of this "new" account here should be noted too. --Irpen 16:58, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

I see. My mistake that before starting active participation, I took some time to discover where different topics are discussed. And I'm really sorry about having found this handy watchlist thing, I now see that using something like that is also considered bad. I'll try to avoid anything like this in future. Ptrt 17:11, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Can somebody persuade User:Digwuren to follow WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA (section break)

Case submitted to ArbCom Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration#Digwuren and Tartu based accounts. --Irpen 18:00, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

That's ok, but I'm afraid that it's going to be low yield. The Community board may still be the best venue, given how every single person who looks seems to get sprayed with a face full of venom. Geogre 03:10, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

I think not. Digwuren has been a very productive editor with over 3000 edits to main space. This is in essence a dispute over the interpretation of Soviet history, related to this case Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Piotrus/Workshop to some degree. It is unfortunate that Alex Bakharev, someone from a Soviet background, does not see this and tries to undercut the proper dispute resolution processes to ban another editor with a similar Soviet background because their views on Soviet history differ. There has to be some attempt at mediation, and if not successful, then atleast a RFC/U first. Martintg 05:22, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Mediation may work well for content disputes but this case is none of that no matter how hard you try to frame it as such. My statement does not say a word about content issues. It concentrates on Digwuren's disruptive conduct only. Mind boggling edit warring, attacking his opponents, accusing them of vandalism, and everything else I wrote there is unacceptable whether it is accompanied by the POV-pushing for the the theory of Global Warming, Environmental protection, World Peace, Flat Earth theory, Soviet occupation theory or Soviet occupation denialism.

Whether it is OK to run revert wars, call everyone who disagree with you a vandal, harass other editors, etc., is non-negotiable and not subject to mediation. --Irpen 05:31, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Exactly the same issues were raised in Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_comment/Petri_Krohn, yet it was disqualified due to a lack of an attempt at mediation. I see no difference here. Either you or Alex Bakharev should have raised a case for mediation and dealt with these issues in an open and honest way. Martintg 05:46, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Mediation is the process aimed at finding a mutually acceptable compromise. Where is the compromise in an issue of edit warring in a bunch of articles all at once? And I am not talking about content. I am talking about edit wars. Where is the compromise between whether calling opponents vandals is allowed or not. Or between harassment and carrying a dialog like decent humans beings?

Digwuren has received a very strong message no more than 3 weeks ago about the community's stand on these issues in the form of a week-long community block. Judging from him returning to even more disruptive behavior in no time, he got none of it. I am always willing to look for a middle ground in content disputes. But I am not going to look for a middle ground on issues clearly spelled out in policies and guidelines as overall disruption.

I had no content dispute with Digwuren since I withdrew completely from all Estonia related topics in May and my attention was drawn back to this editor exclusively by encountering him as he expanded the scope of his revert-warring outside of the narrower scope of Estonia-related articles. If ArbCom says that I am at fault for not being "flexible enough", so be it. --Irpen 06:06, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

There was no community block, just the unilateral action of one admin. It take two to edit war, and in the situation leading to Digwuren's 1 week block, your compatriot Mikkalai started the edit warring by blanking content on an Estonia related article while Digwuren merely attempted to restore content. Who is right? It is still content related and subject to mediation. The blocking admin himself was reported to this board by another uninvolved editor who thought the action a case of admin abuse. There are two sides in every story.

As I said, all the things which you take issue with: edit warring, name calling, etc, were detailed in Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_comment/Petri_Krohn, yet it was rejected due to a lack of mediation. Do you think being called a vandal is worse than being called a Nazi? Yet that is the language Petri Krohn used. Where is his community block? Or is it the case that when your allies behave in a certain way, mediation is in order, but when your opponents act the same way, then community blocks are in order?

And if you say your "attention was drawn back to this editor exclusively", why did you also list the so-called "Tartu based accounts" in the RfA? Martintg 06:44, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

"Unilateral action of one admin" becomes a community block when no other admin is willing to undo it. This is exactly what Digwuren got. The accusation of "admin abuse" was discussed already. You are free to start an admin abuse RfC against FayssalF or take him straight to ArbCom with this. I wish you luck in this endeavor.

You can't find an excuse for Digwuren's behavior by repeating Petri's name even 100 more times. I interacted very little with Petri and Digwuren and I am not interested in who is "worse." I saw Digwuren's behavior clearly amounting to an ArbCom. If you think Petri's has been even worse, fine, ArbCom will see to it. Try writing a statement in this regard.

I have no clue about the rest of your speculations about my "allies", "opponents", "Mikkalai", etc. If you see some conspiracy here, try to convince the arbcom of it. This board is not the place for such theories. --Irpen 07:08, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Any ArbCom requires that the RFC process will be followed first. Since you also included the nebulous "Tartu based accounts", ArbCom expects evidence of some kind of mediation process when a group is involved. I don't see evidence of either. You have been around long enough to know this, why are you wasting our time rather than attempting a genuine despute resolution process? Martintg 09:26, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

No, the ArbCom doesn't require any "RFC process". They like having a preparatory RFC, especially if evidence is otherwise scanty (not the case here). Sometimes. Sometimes they don't care. Martintg, please avoid making cocksure claims about stuff you're not familiar with, as they may mislead people. Bishonen | talk 10:50, 16 August 2007 (UTC).

I'm sure ArbCom can decide almost anything, but I am also sure that ArbCom doesn't want to be flooded with endless ill-considered, malformed or immature requests either, that's why we have a dispute resolution process. Arbitration is the last resort, that is official policy. See WP:DR#Last_resort:_Arbitration. I don't see any legitimate attempt at prior dispute resolution here. Martintg 11:48, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

This is an attempt at mediation. 1. Contact user. 2. Contact uninvolved readers. 3. Report and ask for intervention. If all of that fails, go to RFC, if it looks like a content dispute, or to RFAR if it looks like irremediable behavior. It looks like this is #3. No doubt there is a content dispute, a hydra-headed one, but it is equally without a doubt that this is a report and attempt at resolution of editing behavior, not point of view or article fixing. Further, this argument is exhibiting some of the very same bad behavior -- tarring editors like Alex, trying to elevate "civility" to the level of golden rule on one side only ("rv vandalism" isn't an insult?), and all the rest. Myself, I think the behaviors are so unlikely to be dealt with via arbitration, due to the sliding IP's and block evasions of a group of editors, that I think the ban board is better. Irpen and others believe that arbitration is better. It's not just a content dispute. (For one thing, I care nothing about the content in question, and I can see the blanking, reverting, and edit warring. If you do care about the content and can't see those things, then perhaps you're too close to see clearly.) Geogre 20:01, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

This is not mediation at all. I suggest you read Misplaced Pages:Mediation. You are also incorrect on #3, it's not RFC for content and RFAR for behaviour, it's RFC for content or RFC/U for behaviour, then RFAR if required. Where is the RFC/U? Where is the genuine effort at mediation before the RFC/U?Bishonen to her credit so passionately argued in Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_comment/Petri_Krohn#.22Evidence_of_trying_and_failing_to_resolve_the_dispute.22 that there should be mediation first. Why is there no similar allowance in the case of Digwuren? I'm not "tarring" anyone, these are legitimate questions. Let me remind you it was Bishonen who raised the issue of Petri Krohn's RFC/U as a substitute, so it is legitimate to compare Petri Krohn's and Digwuren's alleged wrong doings and compare the response of the actors involved. Alex Bakharev also participated in that RFC/U and also edits Estonia related pages so he not unfamiliar to the issues. So it is right to compare his responses in both cases. Sure, many find writing "rv vandalism" in an edit comment uncivil, however Petri Krohn went far beyond that and vilified ethnic Estonians in general over many, many occasions. The evidence is in the RFC/U. Where was his outrage and report to the notice board while Estonian editors where enduring Petri's vilification and disruptive editing to the point that thay were forced to submit an RFC/U subsequently quashed due to a lack of mediation. This is a content issue, at the heart of it is the differing interpretation of Soviet history by Russophone editors on one side and other east european editors on the other side. I suggest you read Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Piotrus/Workshop for a view of the scale of the issue. So for uninvolved editors to wade in with recommendations of short circuiting the dispute resolution process by advocating going to the ban board because arbitration is, in your words "low yeild", is wholly unconstructive. Given the emotive interpretations of Soviet history, Digwuren should be given the same leeway as Petri Krohn has evidently been given. Real genuine mediation and dispute resolution is the answer. Martintg 01:09, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I do so love a lecture. However, the wild dream of settling the matter of Eastern European history is nothing I'll hold out for. In the mean time, let's look at what is directly before us: a user who has been cautioned repeatedly, and without dissent, blocked a few times, and is returning now to anger. I have no position on whether he is legitimate in being angry, but I do have a position on this mob justice of "all of Eastern Europe" on the one side and "Russia" on the other. In fact, this artificial group is not homogenous, not consistent in its "content dispute," and not coherent in its arguments. It is united, so far, only in sharing an enemy. We don't need or want enemies at Misplaced Pages. Geogre 15:56, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Yep, I agree with you there. Generally Digwuren is a fairly competent editor, trying to source his edits when he can, willing to overturn his own edits when new sources contradict them and attempts to follow NPOV guidelines and is also willing to discuss controversial edits in talk pages. He has already made a great contribution to Estonia related articles, filling a big gap in Misplaced Pages for those people interested in reading about Estonia. So I don't think we want to chase him away. If he is angry or frustrated about something, mediation is the best course of action. Having him tarred and feathered by an angry mob will only result in a downward spiral, and that will be great loss for Misplaced Pages:WikiProject_Estonia and thus Misplaced Pages. Martintg 01:58, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

I largely disagree with your characterization of Digwurgen and totally reject your implying that I am a part of some angry mob. Digrwuren did contribute content to Estonia-related articles. This is the only thing we agree upon. As for the rest, he does not attempt to follow NPOV guidelines, he is not (at least usually not) willing to discuss at the talk pages, when discussions take place he is extremely rude and often he is plainly trolling. Finally, team-revert-warring coordinated by IRC or any other way Digwuren and his friends are doing it is plain dirty. And on top of that, he is more given to rabid revert-warring than any editor I know among those who are currently active.

He was warned very strongly as the 1 week community block is a message worth to listen. He did not ask for suggestions, as he promised, and immediately returned to his old ways only in a more disruptive form. From experience, I can tell you that I have seen here several productive editors who due to their temper and lack of decency were unable to fit into this community. Digwuren is just that, IMO. I have explained that I have no content conflict with him to seek mediation. I am not active in topics where he edits. He was asked to change his ways. He was given a very stringent warning 3 weeks ago. He got no message. He turned worse instead. I see no chance he can get any message and this makes it an ArbCom matter. Perhaps ArbCom, unlike myself, would say that there is a chance that he can still be reformed; and will hand down some sort of a combination of conditional parole placed on him, instead of the ban. Arbitrators have seen a larger number of disruptive editors than myself, I would expect, and will take their experience with other problem editors into consideration.

I am not motivated by the goal to chase him away. I want his disruption to stop. If he wakes up next morning a nice and decent person editing constructively, talking nicely, listening to opponents, seeking the compromise, I would me more than satisfied. I don't see the chance of this. And I am willing to mediate seeking for the middle ground when I say one thing my opponent says the opposite and the solution is somewhere in the middle. But I am not interested in a mediation on whether disagreeing with Digwuren amounts to Vandalism, whether it is OK to revert war on a bunch of articles all at the same time, to resort to teaming up when you "don't have enough reverts" and to badmouth other editors. --Irpen 03:33, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Copyright violation on Sicily

After I made some good faith restoration of deleted info on the page, I removed a section that violated copyright from http://www.bestofsicily.com/food.htm and http://www.bestofsicily.com/wine.htm . After which, Scipio3000 reverted, in spite of this promise he made during a previous incident . He also left this response on my talk page . Edward321 15:00, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Yeah and the response on his ttalk page was asking him to discuss our problems like others have told me to do, because this is the 3rd time I have had a problem with him..thats all I did I asked him to work on this together and come to a resolution he refuses to do so and instead goes out of his way to undo all my work or find the tiniest fault with what I am doing and reports me, he is constantly harrassing me! Please help me!(Scipio3000 15:21, 14 August 2007 (UTC))

NOT true, me and 2 others of Sicilian descent approved these changes we have been working on this all night and I did not get to that citation yet! I added over 10 pics and 5 new sections on the Sicily page yesterday alone. I needed a break and fell asleep before I got to do it last night, I was going to do it today, but he has vandalised the page so bad, sections are gone and others are merged, IT IS A MESS..After all this work! And he never consulted any of us. Please check the cuisine section and you will see the damage he has done! Edward321 has relentlessy attacked me constantly he thwarts everything I am trying to do..I reported him on Sunday for erasing only the sentence I worked on in the "Italian People" page, he deleted my exact line and only my line. He has no knowledge on Sicilain history nor is he sicilian, he never made any contributions to the Italian or Sicilian page before this and now the only thing he deletes is what I am doing! The page is now so messed up after what he did that the whole sport section is gone and two of the sub-sections on the cuisine are gone along with the mafia heading which now merges with my cuisine section...I spent HOURS doing this last night and had approval from 2 other Sicilians working on this. I have tried on 3 occasions to contact Edward321 and resolve our difference he refuses! I got blocked for doing at lot less than that please check the page it is now a mess!!(Scipio3000 15:17, 14 August 2007 (UTC))

Do not copy text from other websites unless these other websites clearly say their text was in the public domain, or licensed under the GFDL. You are violating the copyright of www.bestofsicily.com. Adding the site as a source doesn't help much; you're copying way too much to claim "fair use" as a short quotation, and the context doesn't call for such quoting anyway. What you are doing is not acceptable at Misplaced Pages.

By all means, add a section on Sicilian cuisine, but use your own words. The adspeek you copied from that website isn't encyclopedic anyway. Lupo 15:35, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

(ec) I have attempted to explain the copyright issue to Scipio and I have explained that he must be more civil and not attack those who disagree with him. The edits can be changed to avoid copyvios but it could still be reverted if consensus agrees. --JodyB _{yak, yak, yak} 15:38, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

I have blocked User:Scipio3000 for 72 hours for this diff] where he referred to an editor as a "White boy." I believe you will see in the context that this is an unacceptable racial swipe. I would encourage others to take a careful look at Scipio's user contributions and see all of the issues he has created. I have attempted to encourage better conduct but have obviously failed. --JodyB _{yak, yak, yak} 16:26, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Legal Threats on his talk page

He has now implied he's seeking legal action (, ), as ridiculous as that may sound. Someone please block indef until he retracts.--Atlan (talk) 19:37, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Blocked. - auburnpilot talk 19:43, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

He does not wish to retract, by the way ().--Atlan (talk) 19:47, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

He only adds more and more legal nonsense on his talk page. Add to the that soapboxing about how he's blocked because of anti-Italian sentiments on Misplaced Pages warrants a talk page protect if you ask me, lest all these editors keep wasting their time there. It's getting out of hand.--Atlan (talk) 19:57, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Scipio3000 has also been editing my talk page as User:72.23.157.21. Mathsci 20:33, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Correction he put his remarks on my USER PAGE. No comment. Mathsci 20:59, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

I wasn't going to protect the page until I saw this joyful comment. I've now fully protected the page for a period of 48 hours. Hopefully this is enough time for Scipio3000 to calm down. - auburnpilot talk

After speaking with Scipio3000 via email, I have removed the protection from his talk page. He has assured me he intends to retract any legal threats, but I am going to be away from the computer. If a retraction is made, feel free to reduce the current indef block to the original block by JodyB (talk · contribs) without contacting me. - auburnpilot talk 00:45, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

So then this edit was a lie? Corvus cornix 23:58, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

I'd be willing to wager the vast majority of users who threaten legal action do not actually intend to do so. I'd also wager the majority of those who make such statements sincerely never follow through. Lie? Maybe. An insincere burst of frustration? More than likely. - auburnpilot talk 00:32, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

He said that he was already in contact with legal counsel. Corvus cornix 20:15, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Per this edit and the note AuburnPilot just left here, I have taken the liberty to reduce the block back to JodyB's 72 hour one.¤~Persian Poet Gal 00:52, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Blocks and RFCU

I've been on an extended wikibreak, since approximately the 17th of last month, and I returned to discover that I had been blocked for a week during that time, ostensibly for violating 3RR on a living person's article. After some discussion at AN/I, in which I did not participate, and of which I was unaware, that block was reduced, but not eliminated. On returning I approached the admin who blocked me and asked him to clarify his reasons, while pointing out that the block was unjustified, as it was based on the assumption that anyone from all IPs in Harvard and Cambridge/Somerville editing an article about a prominent Harvard professor would have to be me, and, indeed, was pointless as I have been editing from New York for months. Meanwhile an RFCU was declined without giving a reason, and it seems I can't ask for it to be reopened. Basically, this means I was blocked for no reason, two weeks into a wikibreak, and I am denied a method of demonstrating that it was pointless, inaccurate and unfair. I'd just like to know if there's anything that can be done under these circumstances; I'd like to have something to point to indicating I did not abuse the system, given that block logs don't go away. This was my first block - indeed the first allegation that I violated policy of this magnitude - in my many years of editing the encyclopaedia, and I can imagine that it was no coincidence that it took place a few weeks into my vacation. Hornplease 02:06, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

This situation certainly warrants discussion, but you should advise the administrators who were involved in the block of this thread, so that they can respond here. Newyorkbrad 02:38, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Of course, I should have. Have done so now. Hornplease 03:40, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Hornplease, you have to just move on. This is an adminstrator's board and you will likely find little support or sympathy about your block, whether it was justified or not. Even if administrator abuse is real (and I'm not saying it is abuse in your case), nothing will be done about it. In fact, it is dangerous to even comment on it because people are likely to attack me just for saying this. Keep editing. Look forward, not back. There are plenty of articles that need improvement. Stay away from bad tempered people, particularly if they are administrators, and you will do fine. Don't get hung up on freedom on speech because you can be right and still raise the wrath of angry admins. History, music, arts, entertainment, geography, science, games, etc. There are so many topics to write about and still stay away from controversy. Good luck!

Isn't this topic ready for the "resolved" tag! Specialjane 03:18, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Err? A little difficult to move on, perhaps, given that I haven't actually discussed it properly yet. Thank you, however, for taking the trouble to give the advice, (especially since I assume it required you to set up a new account!). Hornplease 03:36, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

As Hornplease suggests, Specialjane's contribution above is her first non-userpage edit ever. Newyorkbrad 03:52, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

As I said in the earlier discussion about this, User:Blnguyen's block of Hornplease was done without sufficient evidence, and was unjustified. Unfortunately, Hornplease edits in an area of Misplaced Pages that is fraught with conflict and infested by sockpuppets (one example in this very thread); I have no doubt that this block is going to be used against him in partisan warfare. It would be nice if Blnguyen would comment, but if he doesn't, I would simply point at this discussion and the previous one as evidence that Hornplease should never have been blocked, as there's no evidence that he violated 3RR on Michael E. J. Witzel or anywhere else; in fact, as I've already said, Hornplease should be praised for his efforts to keep this BLP from turning into a smear piece. --Akhilleus (talk) 14:34, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

It appears that:

1. Hornplease was blocked without any evidence, by Blgnuyen.
2. During the RFArb on Hkelkar2, allegations had been placed about Blnguyen's conflict of interest, and his forgiving attitude towards the accused party of the RFArb.
3. Yet, Hornplease was blocked. What does it have to do with Hkelkar? Well, Blnguyen has totally ignored to block the WP:BLP violating users on the Witzel page, some of whom were later found to be sockpuppets of banned user HKelkar.

Under these circumstances, Blnguyen's admin actions on Hornplease are totally inappropriate. In particular, Blnguyen should refrain from taking admin actions in such edit disputes, where he has been accused of favoring one side. Also, supporting sockpuppets in continuing BLP violation is very bad. Admins should be neutral. Yes, admins can and will have opinions supporting a POV, but in such cases, admin actions should never be taken to support any POV. --Ragib 20:17, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Any honest and informed user would see that blnguyen has blocked Hkelkar a number of times. Also strangely enough, Nick has also been outing hkelkar as well. So, the two users "protecting hkelkar" are really not protecting hkelkar at all. The COI allegations were brought by a rogue admin who also thought there users acting on hkelkar's orders on wiki. Ragib and Akhilleus are obviously still convinced of the existence of some underground cabal. The evidence was circumstantial at best, but the similarities were uncanny, and the obvious proximity to Witzel himself makes it even more suspicious.Bakaman 22:58, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

I fail to see what is 'uncanny' or 'suspicious'. Please substantiate. Hornplease 00:53, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

:I agree with user:Ragib and user:Akhilleus that user:Blnguyen's block of user:Hornplease was inappropriate. I note too that an apology or even an acknowledgment of the error has not been forthcoming from Mr. Nguyen.

I don't know too much about Mr. Nguyen, but recently happened upon two edits made by him, both of the graceless sophomoric variety that is the stock in trade of user:Bakasuprman. In his edits, Mr. Nguyen removed the Pakistan tag from the talk pages of Rudyard Kipling and Syed Ahmed Khan, and provided the summary, "Pakistan didn't exist then". Although, I have no idea who put the tags there, I could tell at a glance that they could be relevant, and that the proper approach would have been to leave posts on the respective talk pages. My subsequent post on Mr. Nguyen's talk page explaining that Kipling had cut his literary teeth at the Civil and Military Gazette in Lahore (now in Pakistan) and that Syed Ahmed Khan was one of the first proponents of the Two Nation Theory, went unanswered by Mr. Nguyen himself, although, strangely enough, was answered there by user: Bakasuprman. The Kipling tag was reinstated almost immediately by another editor (with edit summary, "Where else is Lahore?"). The deletion of the tag seemed very strange for a administrator to make, especially one who has no history of edits on those pages. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 21:59, 15 August 2007 (UTC) Since I realized earlier today that user:Blnguyen had (belatedly) responded on his talk page to both my post and User:Hornplease's post, I am retracting what I wrote above. I am retracting the first paragraph (about Hornplease's block), not because I think that the block was right, but because it seems more complicated than I had thought, and I do not have the time to pursue it further. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 15:16, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

If the block is considered unfair, do admins do a 1 second good faith block or something, where they make an apology in the edit summary (which shows in the block log) to recognise that it was an incorrect block? Just curious...

Seraphim 00:35, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

What good will that do? Blocking a user again to apologise for a previous block seems rather counter-intuitive to me. A simple talk page message would suffice.--Atlan (talk) 00:47, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

There's a "reason" field when the unblock is done. Look at some block logs and you'll occasionally see notations that the previous block was in error, etc. Raymond Arritt 00:50, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but in this case, Hornplease's block has already ended.--Atlan (talk) 00:54, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

The reason I ask is that I'm sure I've seen this done somewhere else before. The problem with a talk page message is that it gets archived, so the point of using a 1 second block making an apology is that it is preserved in the block log...Have I got that right? If this was one of those cases, then it could be quite useful at "clearing the person's name" so to speak.

Seraphim 00:59, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

SevenOfDiamonds/MONGO

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

For a loong time now, these two have been yelling at each other. MONGO claims that SevenOfDiamonds is a sockpuppet of a banned user (His Excellency, I think), while he denies this and calls MONGO a troll for claiming that he is. Can we solve this please? -Amarkov moo! 05:22, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I can't keep pretending that I really think MONGO might be an innocent victim here. Yes, SevenOfDiamonds has done some bad things sockpuppet or not, but MONGO continues to implicitly declare that anyone who doesn't do as he likes is in league with trolls. But we couldn't actually do something about this, nope. -Amarkov moo! 05:35, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Are you asking for some sort of sanction against MONGO? Have you tried dispute resolution? I don't see what the link you provided has to do with User:SevenOfDiamonds --Tbeatty 05:40, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

No, that's just ranting. I'm asking for help sorting out his sockpuppetry allegations. The link was about comments EVula removed in a flame war between the two. Even if I were, any form of dispute resolution results in "Support MONGO more against the trolls", that's happened many times before... -Amarkov moo! 05:43, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

I tried to follow it and it looked like an IP troll was removing MONGO's comments replying User:Bmedley Sutler.. If they IP troll was SevenOfDiamonds, they should both be blocked. --Tbeatty 05:49, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

It wasn't either of them...Amarkov...might I ask exactly what your problem is? Didn't you file an Rfc on me recently and then ask to have it deleted...then you marched here and attacked me...now you're doing it again. You're not a mediator or an administrator and as far as I am concerned...you are harassing me, pal. Back off now...this has nothing to do with you.--MONGO 05:54, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

I am complaining that you are consistently incivil to people who disagree with you, to the point of ordering them to do as you say or resigning adminship. If that is "attacking" you, then yes, I am. -Amarkov moo! 05:59, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Oh, I'm also complaining that you repeatedly refer to SevenOfDiamonds as a sockpuppet of a banned user, without ever bothering to actually prove such an assertion. -Amarkov moo! 06:01, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

That's nice...I have an admin who deletes a comment I made in self defense and then marches over to my talkpage (after not removing another comment made to me that I am a troll) and tells me to calm down and this same admin does zero to warn the other offenders...and you wonder why I am indignant? The issue of SevenOfDiamonds being a ban evader is coming...it is in the works. I am absolutely appalled at the level of one sideness that this website is becoming.--MONGO 06:10, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

The one-sidedness, I believe, is that people amass issues with established editors. When banned users are reincarnated and stir up problems with established editors, it's easy for others to project innocence upon them per AGF! and jump in against the established editor. On WR, someone suggested that people who support sockpuppets be blocked along with them. It sounds draconian and unfair, but illustrates an important point. The exploitation of disruptive socks as stalking horses is unacceptable. Even if done naively and with perfectly good intent, there should be some accountability for bad calls which negatively affect other editors and have the effect of prolonging and exacerbating their harassment.Proabivouac 02:09, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

The funny thing: sitting here reading this, I thought "I wonder how long it will take MONGO to accuse somebody of harassment." Didn't take long... - auburnpilot talk 06:02, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

A comment like that only inflames the situation. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 06:06, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

That might be true, but it's about time somebody stops MONGO's bs. Every time somebody disagrees with MONGO, he screams harassment in an attempt to discredit them. It gets tiring. - auburnpilot talk 06:07, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

If you have a chance to try and settle an old score with me, you alway do so.--MONGO 06:12, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't have a score to settle with you. I simply find you to be one of the most uncivil editors I've come in contact with, and I'm continually amazed by the excuses that are created to defend your behavior. Nothing more, nothing less; just amazed. - auburnpilot talk 06:15, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Oddly enough...that is how I find you...to be incivil. I am continuously amazed at the level of incivility you subject me to.--MONGO 06:19, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

IMO Mongos behavior is the most un-civil and aggressive of any long-time editor on Misplaced Pages, (who I have seen) and he does get a 'free-pass' (IMO) because he used to be an administrator and was attacked from some other site nobody reads. Bmedley Sutler 06:09, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Then what exactly do we want done here? I'm not really seeing anything actionable, though I may have missed something. This is really looking to me more like a case for dispute resolution, not ANI. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 06:11, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Okay. What I want to be accomplished here is to determine if allegations that SevenOfDiamonds is a sockpuppet are valid. If he is, block him, if we decide he is not, then hopefully that will stop the accusations. -Amarkov moo! 06:16, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Heinstein, In the big schema of things Mongos words and posture over the last few days is much more hurtful to 'the project' than Giovanni33s slight mistake of 3 RR, but this just shows how silly the rules can be here, and how some get a 'free-pass' (IMO). Bmedley Sutler 06:28, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Tbeatty, "Removing comments?" Like you did here to stop discussion and squish the truth on your friends administartor election? Bmedley Sutler 06:34, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm not quite sure what you are talking about with respect to this subject, but your smear attempts are very transparent. --Tbeatty 07:23, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

I have given MONGO a formal warning for his disgusting behaviour/notice that he will be blocked if he continues it. I am yet to look into SoD's edits, but thus far haven't seen anything anywhere near as offensive was what is being discussed on MONGO's talk page. Viridae 06:20, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Such warnings often make matters worse, as they give an impression that you're in authority over someone, and just make the person more angry. ElinorD (talk) 13:04, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Funny you should say that. Kamryn · Talk

So because it is an established editor we allow incivility? The rules I work by apply equally to both established and new editors I attempt to be as neutral as I possibly can. Viridae 13:59, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

If a completely new editor shows up at someone's talk page with a vulgar insult, I block as an account created for the purpose of harassment. Genuine new editors probably don't even know how to find someone's talk page. If an editor with thousands of constructive edits, including featured articles, shows up at someone's talk page with a vulgar insult, I keep an eye on the situation; I try and think if there's some way of calming the editor down. I try to find some way of tactfully encouraging the editor to relax and calm down. ElinorD (talk) 15:10, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes...Seven is allowed to call me a troll and that is okay...I am not allowed to defend myself from the baiting and attacks. You claimed on my userpage that I had called Evula a jerk, and I did not...I asked you to provide a diff and you didn't. If you are going to threaten me for doing something I didn't do, and fail to retract the threat, then we have nothing more to discuss and your threat is going to be removed.--MONGO 06:46, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

You call me a sockpuppet in every thread on every shared page. I call you a troll for constantly doing it. You are a troll to sit and follow me around and on a page that has nothing to do with either of us, continue to attack me. --SevenOfDiamonds 13:56, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

If anything, the evidence I have, which is exhaustive, demonstrates that you have been stalking me, not vice versa. This will all be over soon.--MONGO 17:49, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes I am sure. Much like that great evidence of me being Rootology. Not sure what you do not get about WP:CIVIL. --SevenOfDiamonds 16:25, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it will be.Proabivouac 01:32, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

I replied to the query for a diff and pointed out that I made a mistake, but because of the 2* jerk calling the warning still stands. I really don't care what you do with the thread, I hopefully won't have to act on it. But seeing as you have seen it it may as well be deleted - I really don't mind. Viridae 07:01, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Now go and warn others for calling me a troll and for the other insults...threaten them with a block and tell them their edits and comments are disgusting. Please don't ever come to my taklkpage again and threaten to block me for doing something I did not do. I'll be patiently awaiting your impartial actions...I suspect my wait might last forever, so prove me wrong.--MONGO 07:24, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Nothing that I saw sunk to your level. I warned for what I saw. Viridae 11:16, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Try taking a look at this. ElinorD (talk) 13:04, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

You are suggesting I warn an unrelated editor (not SOD or MONGO) for something they said on here over a month ago? Viridae 14:11, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

No, I suggest that when you're considering how to phrase your message to MONGO, you take into account that people have behaved a lot worse towards him, and with impunity. And then you reflect on whether there's some more tactful or sensitive or helpful way of dealing with it. ElinorD (talk) 15:10, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Your lack of impartiality is noted. Don't ever threaten me like you did again. This is your final warning.--MONGO 15:25, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Viridae, it would be a terrible mistake to do anything to MONGO on behalf of SevenOfDiamonds.Proabivouac 01:58, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

I am not doing anything on the belhalf of anyone. I am simply warning MONGO that if he keeps up the ridiculous incivility, his status as a long term editor wont mean shit to me when I block him. The same applies to anyone that displays that kind of incivility, be they new or old. Viridae 03:00, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

If I'm not mistaken, some ArbCom rulings have indicated that it's unhelpful to hand out incivility blocks to long-term editors. ElinorD (talk) 13:04, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Ok. I am going to remind everyone to remain calm here. This is a discussion, not a heated debate. There is no need, really, for anyone to get overly messed up over this. -- Anonymous Dissident 03:04, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

But, Viridae, if 7OD turns out to be the sock of a banned user who is dedicated to trolling MONGO, that would make you his unwitting accomplice, would it not? And that would not look good.Proabivouac 04:45, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Are we back to the theory that I created 10+ articles and revamped others all to harass MONGO? I have not been accused of being 6 editors in 3 RFCU's. At what point does someone get the picture? I particularly avoid the contentious articles other then the "allegations" one to avoid dealing with MONGO up to this point. It works well, He stopped appearing on my page with warnings of "or else" and "you will be blocked" and other chest beating means of attempting to bully the opposition. If you care to read, the RfA page in question, I made no remark toward MONGO before he started calling me a sockpuppet, who is trolling who? --SevenOfDiamonds 15:37, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

It makes me noones accomplice. MONGO is incredibly incivil and gets away with it. Some that passed my arbitrary limit of what I deem offensive and so he was warned for it. There is no collusion, no favouritism and no accomplices. I frankly don't care who's sockpuppet he is if he is one - i rarely deal with that sort of stuff as I have no experience in the area. Viridae 09:41, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Hmm. Perhaps you should care. ElinorD (talk) 13:04, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Let me rephrase. If it turns out he is a sock of a banned user - good well and block this account too. However I am unlikely to be the one to find this out, and until I do find it out by whatever means, I will treat him as any other user. Too often I have seen users being branded on wikipedia as socks or immediately disruptive blah blah blah on the flimsiest of evidence. I try to assume good faith and look for a reasonable non-editing abuse explanation. At least once I have challenged the cries of sockpuppet and found to be correct (tennis editor). I don't care who he is untill he is shown to be here for bad intentions. I will treat him like any good faith editor. I will treat him like I treat MONGO and I will treat him like I treat you. Viridae 13:53, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Refusing to sanction people for incivility because a sockpuppet also wishes them sanctioned is stupid. Agreeing with a sockpuppet does not mean I'm his accomplice. -Amarkov moo! 04:48, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

You are correct, it would be stupid to not sanction an editor for incivility. It would be just as stupid for not sticking up for them when they are trolled by such people. It's even worse to allow it to continue while threatening the victim for being uncivil. Adminsitrators should be using their tools to protect the victims of trolling, not lording the ban hammer over the established editor trying only to be left alone. MONGO has a history. His heretofore unknown sockpuppet trolls don't have a history because their previous accounts have been banned. His history is a testament to his commitment, not a scarlet letter. --Tbeatty 05:00, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

His history is a testament to constant incivility to nearly anyone who seriously disputes his actions, actually. Even were it not, the "ZOMG MONGO" blindness everyone seems to have is ignoring the fact that these "trolling sockpuppet of banned editor" allegations are STILL unproven. I've been hearing it for two months, with no convincing evidence. -Amarkov moo! 05:05, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Your history is a testament that you seem hell bent on trying to get me blocked.--MONGO 05:31, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes it is. The first ever interaction I had with you, you declared that I was harassing you. Every subsequent interaction I've had with you, you've declared that the person who dared challenge your incivility is either harassing you or not supporting you enough against the trolls. I do indeed want you blocked for that. -Amarkov moo! 05:37, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Well good luck. Your flippant attitude when you filed that Rfc against me was boorish. Those kinds of things are never taken lightly and that you would do so as if it was, as you put it "I really don't care"....is most definitely harassment. That you fail to see it as such is pretty outrageous.--MONGO 06:21, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

On the contrary. I think it is very serious that you continually imply that anyone who disagrees with you is in league with trolls, and that people actually condone this. And like I told you before, I removed the RfC because you convinced me it was premature. That you continually use this against me is yet another reason I think you should be blocked and are frustrated that you aren't. -Amarkov moo! 06:27, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Anyway, I'm going to bed now. I'm sure that while I'm gone, there will be more unsanctioned incivility, and more people saying that I should let him be incivil until nobody trolls him. It's very disturbing that I've seen so much of this I'm actually apathetic to being told I'm harassing someone for telling them they are incivil. -Amarkov moo! 06:32, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes, a clarification: I wasn't called a jerk (though in reading the archived talk page, it's easy to make that confusion). What was said about me was that I was actively aiding and abetting trolls by removing an instance of MONGO feeding the trolls. Yes, I did only catch MONGO's comment because that was the only one that caught my attention (seeing "rvv" caused me to investigate it further and saw that MONGO was reinserting a personal attack that an anon had removed). Failure on my part to investigate further, but that doesn't make it less of an attack (or less food for the trolls). EVula // talk // ☯ // 22:47, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

I filed a checkuser request here. I believe SoD is Lovelight, a banned user, and I believe the IP trail proves it. I think the evidence is strong enough to stand without checkuser but we'll see where it goes. --Tbeatty 06:35, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Have fun. This will now be the 5th or so accusation from this small band of editors. And the 5th violation of my privacy. Does each of MONGO's good budies get a RFCU each before it becomes harassment? --SevenOfDiamonds 13:56, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Um, has anyone thought of using a checkuser to find out of the accusations of sockpuppetry are true? That would be a good start rather than playing he said she said he harassed me. DarthGriz98 02:10, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Uhh...read a few posts above. A checkuser has been requested. -- Anonymous Dissident 02:17, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Whoops, I missed that. DarthGriz98 02:28, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Another problem that any MONGO topic faces is that when they see it, every single person who has had a problem crawls out to trot in and get in their punches. This makes it very easy to dismiss their input as 'getting in with old grudges', and it also makes it look like the same people go after MONGO again and again. Unfortunately, the flip side to that is that those old editors still don't see a resolution that satisfies, and then go off again with a BIGGER chip on their shoulders. And when they return, MONGO declares it harrassment based on an old grudge, and a failure to see resolution. Then you get a big group of 'anti-MONGO harrassers', who see themselves as either victims of MONGO, or frustrated editors watching the same act of a play over and over and over, who want to see the interlude, intermission, or next scene. Unfortunately, this gulf is going to widen. Given the pending RfCU, I doubt this will be the case that changes things, but when that case comes, it's going to be a titanic brawl. MONGO has infuriated a lot of people with his seemingly teflon edit-hat, and there are a lot of people eager to see his percieved unyielding incivility ended, by hook or by crook. This situation's only going to get worse, for two reasons. One, MONGO seems unwilling to ever defuse a situation. I don't think I've ever seen a MONGO thread in which MONGO apologizes. Two, admins seem increasingly reluctant to admonish MONGO for his actions. MONGO's not 100% to blame for any of these cases, but he WAS an admin, he knows full well the rules, and sometimes, it seems he uses rules lawyering to demonstrate why he doens't have to yield at all, instead of yielding to compromise to make peace. Other times, it comes off as just stubborn beyond belief. Further, there are enough cases where someone really was out to get MONGO that his allegations are rightly taken seriously. the problem is, though, that instead of looking at the aggregate number of 'MONGO's being a jerk' cases, MONGO's adept at steering every single case into being seen as thoroughly isolated from all other 'MONGO is a jerk' incidences. Then the individual situation either gets resolved or peters out, and we find ourselves back here again. A solution needs to be found, and 'Leave MONGO alone' isn't going to do it. MONGO seems attracted to the most hot button-y issues, and doesn't shy from fights, or frankly, the opportunity for one. Then it's back to AN/I, where we go through it again. MONGO could be changing his behavior based on numerous cases here and elswhere against him, but he doesn't. He says, well, I don't have to, but if other editors whose names repeat here over and over can be blocked or banned (one JUST happened, bu I can't find it right now), then MONGO could suffer the same. MONGO should reconsider his approaches to these things and see if he can't learn to avoid conflict a bit more. ThuranX 06:25, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

I see, so I can't call anyone a jerk, but you can call me one, as you just did...you can call me a "giant fucking WIKIDICK" (you capitalized it) and an "asshole" here (egregious comments the likes of which I have never lodged against anyone) and you claim I am the incivil one.--MONGO 06:38, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

You know, I deliberately wrote a long, thought out explanation of how complicated these things get. Since that LAST incident report where you didn't get in any trouble, I've been thinking about why it is that these cases never get solved, just fade away. I write a long thing about it, and instead of listen, you run true to type. I was summarizing the perspective of a large group of editors. You want to see anything remotely opositional to you as a personal attack, and then lump anyone who doesn't support you explicitly and holistically as a harrasser. You really should re-read what I said above. You're taking it all as a lump sum attack piece, and it's not. However, I do think I've figured out part of what's happening in a lot of these cases. You get defensive, excessively so, go after anything said against you in hyperbolic ways, distracting from the issues, and putting anyone who adds to the conversation off. Once you've put off or driven off enough editors, the case goes stale, and slides into the archives. Then it comes up again. and again. I'd like to know why you think none of these cases is ever your fault, even in part. ThuranX 06:58, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

ThuranX, may I remind you that you were not blocked for this disgusting post. ElinorD (talk) 13:04, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

This topic is about MONGO and myself, please refrain from ad hominems. --SevenOfDiamonds 13:33, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't see how it's ad hominem to point out that when someone is lucky enough not to be blocked for an egregious personal attack, it's rather unbecoming for that person to show up arguing in favour of blocking someone for lesser examples of incivility. ElinorD (talk) 15:10, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

So X is a personal attack and Y is a personal attack, but since X is worse, Y is forgiven? You are creating red herrings. Believe it or not even an arrested criminal can file charges. People are not permitted to engage in personal attacks, even against those they believe are attacking them, further I have done no such thing to MONGO. --SevenOfDiamonds 15:26, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

I think the editor you alluded to as being recently banned was User:Doctor11. IIRC, he trolled MONGO, MONGO responded and was roundly criticized and the troll was banned as a sockpuppet of a banned editor. --Tbeatty 06:52, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Just dug through the archives for a moment. I was referring to Klaksonn, case here . I was referring not to an editor in conflict with MONGO, but one who had appeared here numerous times for incivility and other issues, and who finally hit the community's patience mark. thanks for looking, though, appreciate it. ThuranX 07:05, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

And Tbeatty, could you show me which part of policy states civility is only extended to those who are not suspected sockpuppets? Or maybe somewhere we have a guideline that states anyone can be rude if somebody else is rude first. Incivility is not excused when the person you were an asshole towards is proven to be a sockpuppet. - auburnpilot talk 12:21, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Depends on what you mean by "excused". See Extenuating circumstances. ElinorD (talk) 13:04, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

The principle is that administrators are not supposed to let harassed editors continue to be harassed. When they don't use their tools to stop it, the harassed editors may become annoyed enough to be incivil. Considering how many administrators still have not stopped the trolling of MONGO and then complain when he defends himself when he feels isolated is somewhat disconcerting. He is exasperated because instead of helping him stop the trolling by warning and blocking the trolls, some admins are using it as an excuse to point out MONGO incivility. MONGO doesn't feel like the admins are helping him when he is attacked and when he is warned and the troll isn't, it just adds fuel to the fire. I can't help but think that a talk page warning by an admin to an editor with as much experience as MONGO is nothing more than harassment. Send him an email. Ask how you can help or what made him so upset. But just continuing the handwringing and public complaining without actually fixing anything doesn't do anything but add fuel to the fire. These AN/I discussions are noting more than "feeding the trolls" and a lot of it is admins that are doing it. --Tbeatty 14:47, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

That is utter nonsense. The fact that MONGO has been editing longer than other users does not entitle him to some preferential treatment. If MONGO's incivility is a problem, he'll be informed of that problem just like any other editor. To suggest that warning should be taken off-site via email because he has more contributions than somebody else is part of the very perception that is causing this problem. Nobody is entitled to respond "in kind" when they are attacked, or receive an inappropriate comment. - auburnpilot talk 16:01, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Can I please see this administrator intervention MONGO seeked before attacking me repeatedly. I cannot find any. Your whole premise above depends on MONGO seeking help before lashing out, this has not been the case. Further your reality of the situation requires everyone who has a complaint to be trolls. At what point does the community start asking, is everyone just uncivil to MONGO without provocation and or just reasoning? Further MONGO started appearing on my talk page, and engaging me, then attacking me. Your above statement is just another apologist statement ignoring the reality of the situation. You are engaging in exactly what ThuranX just described, attempting to lump one situation into the other to justify his behavior. Ignoring entirely the content of the individual situation at hand. --SevenOfDiamonds 15:23, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Excellent points. ElinorD (talk) 15:10, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

You are advocating the use of "counter-harassment." There are policies and dispute resolution, forums to seek help etc, to give users options other then being uncivil themselves. --SevenOfDiamonds 13:14, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm not advocating any such thing. I'm advocating making an effort to sort out a problem without making a trolled editor feel more frustrated. ElinorD (talk) 15:10, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Which would be going to AN/I not MONGO attacking others. Which he has not done. --SevenOfDiamonds 15:26, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm hesitant to speak on this, given my current situation, and my personal loyalty to MONGO. But I have to. MONGO does have real trolls attacking him regularly. They even organize off-wiki. That tends to make one a little paranoid and distrustful. My own experience in the past few days has made me quite skittish, to the point where I lashed out at another editor yesterday without firm evidence of their wrongdoing, and I'm a pretty patient person. I've only had a taste of what it it like to walk in the shoes that MONGO has to wear every day. I don't offer this as an excuse, just an empathetic view. I have received a great deal of moral support the last few days, and without it, I'm not sure I would have been able to maintain focus and composure. Could MONGO be more civil? Yes. Could other editors be a little more supportive initially when these situations come up, so that he is not driven to the frustration that results in incivility? I think so. - Crockspot 12:47, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Well said. ElinorD (talk) 13:04, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

The sad part is that this topic was about allegations made against me, allegations MONGO has been making ever since I opposed a AfD he participated on, and continued on the talk page of all places, of a RfA. I was accused by MONGO of being a sock of 2 other users, the RFCU came back false. TBeatty, who we see is always in defense of MONGO, which a good friend is normally, then accuses me of being yet another editor. I am getting tired of the harassment of MONGO and his "friends," its in quotes because TBeatty takes friends in a hyperbolic manner to mean "cabal." The truth is the same people come to defend MONGO and like noted above the situation goes away. Every AN/I post plays out the same way since I have been here. MONGO is accused, TBeatty pops up, maybe Tom harrison (who I have much respect for), and one or two of the other people you often find on MONGO's talk page. The situation is treated like everyone is attacking MONGO and everyone is asked to stop persecuting him. Just on the RfA alone, MONGO accused goethean of attacking him, goethean asked how, and MONGO repeated the accusation. Instead of MONGO being asked to stop accusing goethean, goethean was asked to stop picking on MONGO. This is repeated over and over. I understand MONGO was trolled by an off-wiki site, we feel bad when editors are attacked in such a manner since they are here to forward this project, but that attack does not give anyone the status to then be beyond reproach. Was MONGO even asked to stop harassing me? --SevenOfDiamonds 13:07, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Further how many times does MONGO have to be told to be civil, before something is done? People are incivil to MONGO, even if that was believed, it is not an excuse to be incivil back, we have channels to handle those issues that do not require counter-harassment. --SevenOfDiamonds 13:12, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

MONGO doesn't have to be civil. All who oppose MONGO are trolls. there is no other explanation. Anyone who opposes MONGO doesn't understand that wikipedia is comprised of two people. Those who love MONGO, and those who refuse to. Anyone refusing to obey MONGO is a troll, anyone who does is a 'real wikipedian'. That's how MONGO sees it, that's how each of these AN/I threads plays out. MONGO refuses to see anything wrong in what he does, and as mentioned above, MONGO percieves any and all criticism of his actions as the work of more trolls. the fact that MONGO's been actually trolled means we get a guy who cries Wolf when it's just sheep, and sees a wolf in every sheep's clothing. I really don't think MONGO can help himself at this point. Any attack on him MUST be a troll, in his mind. Like Crockspot said, MONGO is paranoid. He really NEEDS to wikibreak. I'm sure he won't, but he ought to take a week and just walk away. It's just wikipedia, we will ge by without him, and the articles he likes will still be there. Everyone agrees he 'could' be more civil, but no one agrees he SHOULD be. TBeatty above says instead, MONGO should get extra considerations, that leaving him talk pages notes automatically constitutes harrassment. Well, if that's the case, then something's rotten in the state of Denmark. MONGO does NOT deserve our automatic support. TBeatty premises that if MONGO says somethign's wwrong, he must be right and we should help. that's unrealistic. MONGO should follow the rules, and the rules should applyto him. ThuranX 15:30, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

"People should defend him more"

People do defend him. When there is truly a MONGO troll, the troll is blocked relatively quickly. The problem is that, as was the original point here, he makes accusations of being a troll without any proof, and then complains when no admin will block those people on his say-so. I support defending MONGO againt actual trolls. But such a charge needs evidence. We do not, and should not, block people just because "Oh, MONGO says they're a troll!" Merkey acted as if he had that power, and was laughed down once people realized it. Why is anyone actually supporting MONGO when he wants the same? -Amarkov moo! 16:53, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

• This really has got to stop. The way that SevenofDiamonds has been harassed is appalling. I'd like to hope that it'll let up now that it's been confirmed that Seven is not Lovelight, but I have to say that MONGO needs to stop his combativeness with other editors. I don't think I've ever seen a more argumentative editor on Misplaced Pages, and that kind of behavior makes consensus impossible. .V. 16:49, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
• By the way, for those who claim that MONGO's incivility is caused by trolling, take a gander at his first twenty edits. -Amarkov moo! 16:57, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

  More than 35,000 edits ago. This is really getting tiring...if you feel the need to "have something done" about me, then do what you have to do. I have the diffs to prove that you have been on a long term effort to seek some kind of retribution on me and I am sick of it.--MONGO 19:52, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

  The point is not that you should be sanctioned for that behavior now. You shouldn't be. The point is that you have not changed since then. -Amarkov moo! 22:38, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

  Out of curiosity, what do you mean by "do what you have to do"? -Amarkov moo! 22:48, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

  Oh don't be so ridiculous, Amarkov. MONGO was a reactionary jerk in 2005. Well, IMHO he was. I opposed his RFA for the clueless way he intervened in a conflict between 172 and Silverback -- in which MONGO was guided, for my money, by nothing better than his own political convictions. That was then. Now is now. Contrary to some statements above about seeing things in black and white, I have found MONGO, since that nadir of autumn 2005, quite remarkably ready to reconsider his positions, to listen and take stuff in. I ended up removing my sincere and angry Oppose in the RFA, because of the way he took it. Of course I thought: "It's an RFA, what is that? Acting?" But I took a chance, and no, it wasn't. He regroups, it's what he does best. I suspect he remains a reactionary... but politics isn't the light he edits by now. Bringing up edits and edit summaries from 2005 doesn't make him look bad, it only makes you look desperate, Amarkov. Btw, while I can see that this edit, linked to above, is too old to block for NOW, I would really like to know what the hell happened there. Why wasn't ThuranX blocked, and how in the name of ... whatever, can anybody consider blocking anybody for personal attacks on the day ThuranX wasn't blocked for that? Let alone consider blocking the target of that attack. As ElinorD suggests, for ThuranX himself to clamor for a MONGO block after that has to be one of the most unbecoming spectacles ever to disgrace this board. (Sorry, Elinor, that's my way of talking rather than yours, but the sentiment is the same.) Come off it. Bishonen | talk 21:44, 16 August 2007 (UTC).

  I fancy the concern is not that MONGO remains biased, or reactionary; the concern is that he continues to be extremely rude. My only interaction with him was on this noticeboard, where I noticed that not one long-term contributor not previously involved had stepped in to point out to MONGO that extending his personal POV to stigmatizing other contributors was not OK. So, simply, the above statement is incorrect: politics is the "light by which he edits", at least by whatever I have observed, and, in fact, he states as much in that exchange (Note again, I have no axe to grind, as I have never run into him in an article, nor do I expect to.)Hornplease 22:14, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Bishonen, don't dismiss MONGO's past actions in one breath, then attack mine in the next. I was speakign bluntly about an editor who I feel gets away with bloody murder on Misplaced Pages. Nothing else was working. At least then, people listened. And check my edits and MONGOs. We don't cross paths. All my anger and frustration is borne of seeing him get away with the same things over and over and over. I'm no MONGO troll, I'm an editor tired of his behavior. ThuranX 01:44, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Real Time Example

MONGO makes a flippant general comment . Immediately a response which can only serve to troll the situation as only citing WP:DICK can do. I removed the comment because it really can only explode into more heat than light . An admin decides that citing WP:DICK is actually a reasonable comment in light of all this . This is a fundamental problem. --Tbeatty 20:59, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

The fundamental problem here you once again detracting from the topic. As ThuranX noted, you are again injecting an alternate situation into this one to justify MONGO's actions. While that should not have happened, it has nothing to do with MONGO's treatment of me, his allegations which have all been proven wrong, yours as well, and the continued violations of my privacy and harassment. --SevenOfDiamonds 21:09, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

I haven't justified MONGO's actions in the least bit. I pointed out that he is being trolled. Again. And that an admin seems to have condoned it. I don't think that has anything to do with MONGO's actions. I think it has a lot to do with how people have responded here. --Tbeatty 21:14, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Calling MONGO a dick is a problem. I have absolutely no argument with removing such a post. But at this point, it's quite understandable (although bad) for people to be frustrated at him and put it back in anyway, because MONGO is never sanctioned for any incivility. Ever. -Amarkov moo! 22:47, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

But tat's the point. MONGO gets that same understanding because that's the kind of trolling he's subjected to. It's bad but understandable. All he wants is for the trolling to be addressed instead of being endorsed by administrators.

What "understanding" am I supposed to give him? I think that calling someone, even MONGO, a dick is grounds for a very stern warning. And I think that those who are continually insulting, even if those insults are against MONGO, should be blocked. I give MONGO no less understanding than I give other editors, it's just that MONGO is incivil to a point not matched by many others. -Amarkov moo! 04:38, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

My comment on understanding was related to the community. MONGO is "given a pass" because a lot of people understand his frustration just as you understand the frustration of the editors who replaced that quote. There is a difference between condoning and understanding. Because of the understanding there is no need for a warning. --Tbeatty 04:45, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I understand the frustration of the editors who replaced that quote. But like I said, I think that replacing a quote calling someone a dick merits a stern warning, and people who make a habit of replacing such quotes should be blocked. In the same way, I understand MONGO's frustration when he's incivil. But I think that much of his incivility merits a stern warning, and since he makes a habit of such incivility, he should be blocked. -Amarkov moo! 04:49, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

You seem to be accusing myself and another editor of being trolls - please back that remark or redraw it. --Fredrick day 22:46, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Your action of restoring that comment to the talk page was trolling. It could only lead to more incivlility and it continued a personal attack. It's baiting and uncivil to do that and abhorrent that you decided to continue it. It's bad enough that an administrator didn't remove it and warn the poster and it's worse that an administrator restored it. Especially one (not you) with history with MONGO. I doubt you do this on a regular basis so I don't understand why you did it there. If you continue that behavior, you would indeed be a troll. --Tbeatty 02:24, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I hate to say it, Tbeatty, but you are quite right. I apologise for this edit, which was mean-spirited of me. The comment was definitely uncivil towards MONGO and restoring it was the wrong thing to do. I was frustrated with MONGO's and your aggressive badgering and deletions, respectively, during Crockspot's RfA, which in my opinion contributed to the disaster it became. Nevertheless this was the wrong way to express my frustration. I actually agree with you that any reference to WP:DICK should be aggressively removed as it never leads anywhere good. I apologise. You were right to remove it. --John 05:08, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

John...what exactly did I ever delete from that Rfa? Crockspot knew I was commenting in jest...--MONGO 16:00, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

No, that was what I meant by "respectively" above. It was Tbeatty's double removal of difficult (but reasonable) questions to the candidate which prompted another user to dig deeper and find the quotes that really swung the RfA the wrong way. You, on the other hand, were (I'm sure with good intentions) flagging up users who had (in your opinion) not contributed much recently. It was noticeable that you only did this with opposers and that the users seemed like users in good standing rather than SPAs or socks. This caused widespread irritation which cannot have helped your nominee. As for your jokey comment about Crockspot beating his wife, I am sure it wasn't offensive to Crockspot, but in the context of the recently-ended RfA it did look poor to me and at least two others, given your role in the way it turned out. Thank you for striking through it. Nevertheless the WP:DICK comment was over the top, as I conceded above. It was right to remove it and I was wrong to reinstate it. I hope we can all learn from the affair. The breakdown of AGF and CIVIL aids nobody, as I think we have seen. --John 17:14, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

The supporters did not raise my eyebrow as I had seen all of them up to that point before. I did comment that I was pleased and stated so to see Mr.Gibbletts banned and he supported...so are you accusing me of partisanship now? Given my role in how the Rfa turned out? What role was that? I really appreciate your ongoing misrepresentations..thanks. I do most humbly accept your non-apology apology.--MONGO 17:27, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

My apology was a sincere one. Your role in the RfA was unhelpful, in my opinion, but does not entitle anyone to call you a dick. Please see also WP:SARCASM. --John 17:29, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Can we please go on building the encyclopedia? My suggestion, at least for everything which involves these two sides, is that anyone who calls another a "dick", a "troll", a "martian", a "fool" would be blocked on the spot. It seems that everyone is focusing on the other side. Please make good use of you mirrors and stop this my mama/your mama game. Again, enforcements would be be executed on the spot and nothing about what "you did last summer". I'd be waiting for other suggestions to sort this mess out at least temporarily. -- FayssalF - 21:19, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

But SevenOfDiamonds has already been banned as NuclearUmph, and has returned at least in part to harass MONGO. See User:MONGO/Ban evasion, also User talk:NuclearUmpf#Peace_Out and the discussion which preceded it.Proabivouac 21:28, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Blocked indef. Done w/ it. Please MONGO, Tbeatty, Thuran and others. The problem is not limited to NuclearUmpf. Try and WP:CIVIL. I won't wait for any suggestions i believe. Thanks. -- FayssalF - 22:29, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Hallelujah.Proabivouac 22:51, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I must protest, in the strongest possible terms, the block of SevenOfDiamonds, given that the discussion on Arbitration Enforcement was closed with "No Action". The block was totally out-of-process. *Dan T.* 23:32, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

The block has already been reversed and MONGO is free to take this to arbcom if he wishes. - auburnpilot talk 23:38, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Funny DanT, at no time in that discussion did you state the only opinion that might have been relevant: that, having reviewed the evidence, you did not actually believe that SOD is ZF/NU evading his indef block.Proabivouac 23:39, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Case to the ArbCom. I am archiving this thread. This case should only be handled by the "Supreme Court". See user's talk page. FayssalF - 23:37, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Spamming

Mattbroon (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and 84.68.177.166 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (the latter signs as Mattbroon) have been spamming this message to everyone who supported User:Haemo during his RFA. He says that everyone should revoke their support because he thinks that Haemo is a paedophile. Please block for harassment. Melsaran 13:41, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

He appears to have stopped after he was warned. If it continues post here again and I'll look into it.--Isotope23 13:50, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

In addition, this user's first edit was to WP:RFPP (highly unlikely for a new account, don't you think), and the user proceeded to disrupt RFA throughout the day, including Making his own RFA, and then proceeding to attempt to reopen it after it was snowball closed, as well as voting for himself (you can see records of this on his talk page), vote against editors that clearly quality for adminship because they 'don't have enough experience', even after running himeslf and remove notes about his suspicious newness. He as also broken 3RR on Margaret Thatcher , and this is barely beginning to talk about him. He's obviously only here to disrupt Misplaced Pages in any way he can find, whether he is a sockpuppet or not. --Lucid 13:53, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

• Hard to discern any positive value in this editors actions or intentions. Seen editors quite legitimately indef blocked for less. Deiz talk 13:57, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
• He's cruisin' for a bruisin'. When I see the indef-block notice come up on my watchlist, I won't be surprised in the least... EVula // talk // ☯ // 13:59, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

I recommend he is at least blocked until the end of the RfA. --Dweller 14:07, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

In fact, given that his disruption at the RfA was continuing (), I've gone ahead and blocked. 1 week. --Dweller 14:09, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

That works too. I didn't do a full review of his contributions when I initially replied, but yeah... there isn't much positive work there.--Isotope23 14:13, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Considering I had to fully protect his own RfA because he kept editing it after it was closed, I don't think it much matters when the RfA ends. :) EVula // talk // ☯ // 14:51, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

I would have indefinitely blocked; I don't see one edit that adds any value to Misplaced Pages. Clearly a sock, with no intention other than disruption and smearing Haemo. Neil ム 15:22, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

I would support extending the block to indef. I don't know if this user is a sockpuppet of some banned, reckless troll or a newbie that will forever be tainted by his actions and will definitely need to start anew here (if the lesson is learnt well, that is).--Húsönd 16:01, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

I have no problem with another admin extending the block. On the other hand, I'm intrigued to see how he'll behave when he returns. --Dweller 16:58, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

The idiotic part of me that is hopelessly optimistic in the face of Reality and Facts would like to make this his final chance. If he behaves after the block wears off, great. If not, he's gone. I think the former situation is orders of magnitude less likely than the later, but I'm fine giving him the opportunity to prove me wrong (despite the fact that I never am). EVula // talk // ☯ // 18:38, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Checkuser showed a reincarnation sock, User:Chatchien, which I have blocked indefinitely as a block-evading sockpuppet. Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 22:32, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Block of IP

I've blocked User:12.167.224.228 for three months per this rather convincing list of POV-pushing by them as a corporation editing articles related to them and their rivals. Since it's been blocked for that reason before, there didn't seem much point in just warning. Does this seem correct to you? Adam Cuerden 21:24, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

This seems a bit overzealous, IMHO. We don't often block high profile IPs, especially if they haven't done the said POV-pushing for quite a while. This IP didn't have many edits, and some of them seemed to be removing some of the problem. The thing is: either we should be blocking this for a much longer time period, or not at all. Three months is going to do little. The Evil Spartan 17:26, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Even though if the IP is blocked or not, you should report the incident to the Communications Cmte.. Miranda 00:24, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Eyrian

To whom it may concern, I was recently trying to patch up some article disputes with the administrator Eyrian. Anyway, I see that his user page, talk page, archives, essays, etc. have all been deleted and protected. Anyway, I was just curious what gives? Was his account compromised? Has he left Misplaced Pages? Etc. In any case, although I disagreed with this editor, I am just curious what happened and still hope that he is nevertheless okay. Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles 00:22, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

No idea. his page is cascade-protected with no reason supplied, last edit today. He may be using his m:Right to Vanish, but should probably step down as an admin to do so. ~Kylu (u|t) 02:32, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

I too hope everything is ok, however, the user talk needs to be unprotected. Navou 02:39, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

I tried sending him an email to ask, but it seems he either does not have an email or made it so he cannot receive messages. --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles 02:40, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Folks who leave altogether routinely come back, including a few admins. It's OK if he remains a sysop since the developers weeded out weak sysop passwords after a few administrator accounts were hijacked. I'm not very keen on the user talk page salting either, but if he's really gone, there's no reason he needs to receive messages. ~shrug~.--Chaser - T 02:57, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

I think it's reasonable that admins who protect their pages, particularly if the protection is expected to be long term or the admin is leaving the project (short or long term), leave a brief notice to that effect be posted. I don't think anyone is saying that User Talk pages shouldn't be protected when necessary but it should be a courtesy, particularly for admins, to let others know that they're gone and can't help or answer questions. Just protecting a User Talk page, particularly an admin's, can be confusing and frustrating for other editors, particularly newer editors. --ElKevbo 05:37, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

I left such a note and protected the talk page directly.--Chaser - T 00:59, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

• There are several admins (myself included) who did a "right to vanish" followed several months later by a "right to return". Thus deopping people for being inactive is probably not the best approach. Also, WP:PEREN. >Radiant< 09:21, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

• I left. I became incredibly discouraged. I am now back. I don't think it's right to be lackadaisical about these things, even when things become frustrating. --Eyrian 14:49, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

There are many things I find incredibly frustrating and discouraging on Misplaced Pages, obviously deletionism being the biggest concern, but I kind of find the site addictive. It is hard to just give up once and for all, largely because I know so many people use it and after talking with some students after class last night who expressed their irritation at articles they found interesting or useful disappearing encourages me that "fighting the good fight" is worthwhile. Oddly enough, while I know you disagree, a couple of them even said that the "popular culture" stuff is "one of the best aspects of this site" and "really sets it apart from paper encyclopedias." Anyway, good to know it was not some health issue or harassment by editors. Best, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles 14:57, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Vandalism by 63.162.143.21

(copied from WP:AIV because that apparently was the wrong place for this report)

Anonymous user User:63.162.143.21 has a long history of vandalism. See User_Talk:63.162.143.21. Most recently he has vandalized Spencer Abraham by inserting:

On November 5, 2003 The Onion World News reported that Abraham admitted to having performed in over 50 pornographic videos from 1984-1987. Abraham's "mostly softcore" body of work includes such features as Maid In The Shade, Jism Quest, Butt Fuck Sluts Go Nuts Vol. 3, and Lady Chatterly's Sisters.

He has inserted this same text three times in the last two days, which is not technically a violation of 3RR, but is clearly a violation of BLP.

In Amy_Fisher he inserted the subject's street address, which another editor reverted as a violation of BLP.

In Human Sexuality he made a nonsensical edit which another editor reverted.

In Heather Sinclair he added gossip which another editor reverted.

On the basis of his history I am very suspicious of his other edits, e.g.:

• in The Dream Team he changed "Aquaman" to "Ramones". Is this an accurate correction or vandalism?
• in Edward Cash he changed the birthplace from Malden to Boston. Accurate or vandalism?

Complicating this case is that User:63.162.143.21 is a shared account. Some edits are vandalism, some might be vandalism, others may be legitimate.

The obvious vandalism is bad enough but will probably be caught and reverted before too long. But all of the other edits might be vandalism. Is there a mechanism to mark every article touched by this user to warn other editors to check for possible vandalsim by this user?

Is there some way to notify the owner/administrator of this IP address (apparently inside the Department of Homeland Security!) that somebody is committing vandalism and try to stop it there? Sbowers3 00:12, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Warn him appropriately and systematically, using template messages, from WP:VANDAL. If does not desist, then report to AIV after a final warning. A temporary block may be then placed, and hopefully this might help resolve the issue. -- Anonymous Dissident 02:20, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Personal information from Amy Fisher removed from page history. ~Kylu (u|t) 02:23, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Second note: I've looked over the edits and it appears there are at least three users coming from this IP. One, in fact, has done a number of useful edits. It may be worthwhile to contact DHS and ask them if this is a proxy and encourage them to have their users register accounts, especially given the new tools available in the last few days. ~Kylu (u|t) 14:51, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for looking. Yes, I also thought there were multiple users. Some clearly was vandalism; some seemed useful - but could have been subtle vandalism. I didn't know the subjects well enough to tell if the edits were useful or vandalism so I wondered if there were a way to warn other editors to double-check the edits.

Is there some way to identify an administrative contact at that IP site and find an email address? I'd be happy to send a message but I don't know how to find an email address. I will send snail mail if there is no better way.

BTW, what are the "new tools"? Sbowers3 00:31, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

• User has continued query on my talkpage. Will respond there. ~Kylu (u|t) 02:11, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Moved from AIV: Sixstring1965

• Sixstring1965 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) - user that just came off a 48 hour block for both vandalism and sock puppetry has again ignored repeated warnings and is misquoting people by vandalizing his own Talk page, has vandalized my Talk page, added sourceless information and original research, and added sources that are unfit for an encyclopedia article after having been warned against it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Layla12275 (talk • contribs).

Moving this from Misplaced Pages:Administrator intervention against vandalism for more discussion. – Luna Santin (talk) 04:07, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

This looks like a reasonably simple block for disruption, or is there some history behind this I don't know about? Matt/TheFearow (Talk) (Contribs) (Bot) 04:13, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure why this was moved, but this user has vandalized repeatedly after many warnings, such as here, and here (this was word-changing that violated POV after several requests followed by warnings not to do so--this was the repeated change that resulted in the user's first block, and he has not stopped), here, and here (addition of sources that are not Wiki worthy after being asked not to do so).

As for this new accusation of using my "friends"--I don't know anyone on Misplaced Pages; these people just jumped to my defense. Layla12275 04:21, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, Layla12275 is a troll and a vandal. She likes to make me look bad and uses her friends to get me blocked. If I get blocked again, Please block her as she is a serial reverter. Sixstring1965 04:17, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

If she reverted edits you made via your anonymous sockpuppet, she's allowed. Any edits made by a blocked user through a suspected sockpuppet are to be reverted no matter how useful they were. Daniel Case 04:24, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes, there is some history. Some of the users involved believe that SixString may be May Pang, owing to a similar history with MsMP a year ago on the same article.

I made the blocks for the vandalism to Talk:May Pang and the sockpuppetry; I might be doing so again soon. Daniel Case 04:24, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

No Daniel, The reverts are not sockpuppet reverts, they are legit not only my edits but other users. If I get blocked, she should be too. And as I said before, I'm not Pang. Sixstring1965 04:32, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

You missed the point of what I was saying. If she honestly believed the edits made by the anonymous user (are you tacitly admitting this here?), she can (and should) revert them all she wants because blocked users may not edit period. Daniel Case 02:28, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure what the comment regarding "friends" refers to. If that's me, I don't even remember how I got involved with this article. Possibly recent changes patrolling. Regardless, I have no previous involvement with the article or Layla or anyone else involved with it, for that matter. I'm the one that's dropped most of the warnings and requested the first block. It's also worth noting there have been issues with personal attacks as seen here where he refers to Layla as a "twat". Lara♥Love 04:35, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Mr. Case, you can take a look at my edit history and see that the only reverts I made were because of either vandalism to Talk pages (primarily his) or because information was either sourceless or poorly sourced. LaraLove was actually the person to deem his original source unworthy of Misplaced Pages, it wasn't me. I mistakenly called her an admin in my edit summary, and for that I apologize. I also apologize if I violated the three-revert rule, but dealing with a vandal such as this is exasperating at best. Thank you for your time. Layla12275 04:38, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

I can also vouch that Lara has had no previous involvement with me; she's merely been helping me immensely in defending myself against such attacks. Layla12275 04:39, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Daniel, They both sound worried. I demand that if I get repremanded again that they recieve the same treatment as I. They BOTH have been tormenting the board and sending friendly mails to each other and with that making me look bad. I didn't attach the word "twat" to Layla so you can bat that one around all you want. Layla says she "merely" helped her "emensely" (whatever that means) by helping to destroy my reputation by firing me up with the reverts and edits. The only vandal here is Layla and Laralove is helping her in the Misplaced Pages legal sense. Don't let them get away with this. Just look at the history.Sixstring1965 04:50, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm not even going to dignify that with a response, but yes, please look at the history. That should give you enough of a clue as to what's going on. His vandalism to his own Talk page is enough, actually. And he did call me a "twat", which is obvious from the link Lara provided. Sorry about this mess, and thank you for your time. Layla12275 04:52, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

You did call her a twat ... the diff she provided doesn't lie. Daniel Case 02:39, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

She accused me of being other people (3 different people I think) and this was damaging to my screen name. That is why this thing spun out of control. I say it again, If I get reprimanded, so should Layla and Laralove. Sixstring1965 05:08, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

I speculated that you were May Pang, and Mr. Case knows why, because he already stated the exact reason above. Also, it was your actions that damaged your good name, sir. The person you're addressing is the person who blocked you as a result of your actions in the first place. Layla12275 05:10, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Okay, then you should be blocked for your serial reverting... right? Sixstring1965 05:12, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

I wouldn't call it "serial", but that's not up to me. It's obvious that there was an infraction every time I reverted you, but I may have gone over the limit, in which case I will accept that verdict. However, my reasoning isn't exactly covert--you were flagrantly vandalizing. A monkey could see that. Layla12275 05:15, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

(ec x 3) Please, by all means, review the history of all the pages. Reviewing all of my 5,500+ edits would reveal no previous interaction with anyone involved. I've not had even one warning on my talk page, ever. Sixstring's behavior with the article, his/her own talk page, Layla's talk page, here... it's all ridiculous. The fact that s/he's refered to Layla as a twat seems block-worthy, imo. Sixstring is a vandal, plain and simple. No intrest in working constructively or collaboratively whatsoever. Review the history, as Sixstring so politely recommended. Lara♥Love 05:17, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm a vandal because you say I am. Look at what I supposedly vandalized... MY OWN PAGE. How rediculous is that? All of my other work was constructive (look it up) and sice i've been dealing with these two buddies, I've been reprimanded. I say it again... If I get blocked again, I insist that they also get blocked for the same amount of time. Sixstring1965 05:23, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Speaking of buddies. I did a little looking myself. Hotcop2 (talk · contribs · count) popped out of no where all of a sudden to back up Sixstring. The proof is in the diffs. I have nothing to defend, so I'm not worried about a block. You, however, Sixstring, need to seriously consider your edits and how they affect the project. Lara♥Love 05:31, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Sixstring, edits to your own page or talk page can be considered vandalism. Especially when you not only do but then revert a reversion of something like this. Changing the meaning of comments left by others, even to make them humorous, is something vandals do.

You've only been here a month or so, and it seems you might be making some constructive edits. But you have a lot to learn about policy yet. Daniel Case 02:39, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Just as an aside, "demanding" and "insisting" tends not to work well around here. Raymond Arritt 05:29, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, Mr. Arritt.  :) (You're coming to my defense...we must be long-lost lovers! Kidding...I'm kidding).

And for the tenth time, Lara and I don't know each other. Layla12275 05:31, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Yeah come to her defense. I can't wait until someone sees through you. This is all in the name of twat "The War Against Terror" of Misplaced Pages. Sixstring1965 05:39, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

He didn't come to my defense; I was kidding. And that was hardly the only thing you did. Layla12275 05:47, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

So is Sixstring getting blocked or what? Lara♥Love 03:31, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

The truth of the matter is that you should be reprimanded big time for the garbage you have on your personal page. I can only hope an admin does something about it. Here's a little bit of what she has posted - 'It's really pretty simple:- don't be a dick - - ignore all rules - You've gotten away with enough. Sixstring1965 16:13, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Kailua-Kona, Hawai'i

Between 7 August and 9 August, the demographics section of Kailua-Kona, Hawai'i was vandalised in five separate incidents by five related IP addresses, all registered to USLEC Corp. of Raleigh, North Carolina: 64.24.87.54; 64.24.87.57; 64.24.87.133; 64.24.87.47; 64.24.87.35. The first vandalism (three edits, all together, by IP.54) changed the racial statistics, changing "American Indian" to "Red" with a link to "American Indian", "Asian American" to "Yellow", "Pacific Islander" to "Tan", and similar changes, calling it "fixed faulty racial categorization." Another editor and I reverted the changes each time, and the changes were reverted by .57, .133, .47, and .35 in turn, with the last calling it "Revert the violation of three revert rule and restore removal of the violation of published Misplaced Pages style guidelines." I warned each UP as if it were the same one, giving .47 a uw-vand4. With .35 doing it again, I decided to bring this here. Not sure what to do, but it's obviously the same person doing all of this. Nyttend 04:57, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Looking at the talk pages of these IP addresses, I see warnings of unconstructive edits and vandalism. I think this user thought he was contributing - he/she probably thought that these terms were shorter ways of saying the same thing. Od Mishehu 07:18, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Ummmm, I can't really imagine that anyone past the age of 12 in Raleigh, NC thinks that "red" = indigenous American or that Oriental folks are "yellow." Believe it or not, Raleigh has decent education, and there isn't so much racism. Now, this is coming from a corp's IP block, so, if dad doesn't have Junior banging away at the machines, we're either looking at compromised security, a bogus company, or just good, old fashioned, moronia. There is no room or excuse to be made for reductive racialism or racism. Geogre 12:28, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Yep. I'd say just keep reverting. Stupid people exist. Mahalo nui loa for all your help, Nyttend. --Ali'i 14:01, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Because it's obviously the same person doing it, but because it's with different IP addresses, what — if anything — should I do at WP:AIV? As far as Od Mishehu: I gave warnings progressively: the first IP got a uw-vand1, the second got a uw-vand2, etc., but I didn't warn the fifth one because I brought it here. Nyttend 18:38, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

The anti-vandal activity necessary is probably that which we would use with the AOL dilemma: short blocks, every time. The vandal is rolling around, but he or she will, we hope, get tired and bored if each IP gets a 12 hr block each time. If those pile up, then we will need to consider range blocks for an appropriate length, with contact to the abuse address at the company, if necessary. Geogre 20:48, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Civility and personal attacks by User:Lsi_john

Lsi_john has been engaged in a long-running, low-level feud with User:Durova. I consider his last couple of remarks to be way out of line. Other admins may want to keep an eye on the situation. Raymond Arritt 13:22, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

I didn't approach her first. She sent ME an email. It was unnecessary and unwanted. And the fact that she sent it at all speaks volumes about the situation.

I leave her alone. And if she's going to email me, given the situation, then lets not get all pointy fingered when I respond on her talkpage.

Peace.Lsi john 15:04, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Speaking of civility, mr Raymond Arrit, sir... isn't it a bit INCIVIL of you to open this thread without notifying me? a bit of WP:KETTLE here perhaps? Peace.Lsi john 15:13, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

You're right, I should have notified you. But I don't think that excuses your own behavior. Raymond Arritt 15:41, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

If someone sends you objectionable email, it's best not to reply/retaliate on-wiki, for a number of reasons. Obviously, personal correspondence is not bound by WP:CIVIL, WP:NPA, etc, whereas talk page comments are. Certainly off-wiki harassment can have repercussions on-wiki, but this seems like more of a personal dispute. Honestly, I don't think any sanctions are in order for anyone right now, but Lsi john, if you're receiving email that's pissing you off, it's best to just delete it, spam-filter the sender, or if you must reply, do it via email instead of on-wiki. If you feel you're being harassed via email or off-wiki, then that's a different story, but this looks like a personal dispute that's best handled by disengagement. MastCell 15:31, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

I'd note that there are a couple of good reasons to reply on-wiki rather than off-. For one, it creates a 'paper trail' on-wiki should there be further steps of dispute resolution in the future. For another, replying to an email gives the recipient one's email address. I avoid sending email to editors I don't trust, because I don't want them to be able to send me abuse or sign me up for mailing lists and spam. (Remember, if an editor is blocked it's now possible to bar them from using the Misplaced Pages email-this-user function.)

I would disagree that private emails (sent to an editor using the 'email this user' button) are entirely beyond the reach of WP:NPA. If an editor is using Misplaced Pages's servers and tools to insult another editor, that's something about which we should be concerned. Note that I have no specific comment about this particular situation; my remarks are intended to be general in scope and tone. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 16:03, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

All good points. I agree that off-wiki harassment or personal attacks can and should have on-wiki repercussions. I often just delete abusive emails rather than reply, for the reasons TenOfAllTrades mentioned, and the email-blocking feature has been useful in that regard. On the other hand, publishing the text of emails or private correspondence, even when abusive, has generally been frowned upon. If a paper trail is important, it might be best to just hang onto the offending email instead of bringing it on-wiki. MastCell 16:50, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

I question whether this thread will accomplish anything. a) Durova is an admin and can take care of herself; b) Lsi John says he's left Misplaced Pages. c) Yes, his comments were uncivil, but not egregiously so.

Lsi John is IMO a well-intentioned editor who has had challenges in his sincere, if sometimes confrontational, attempts to fit in with Misplaced Pages's norms. I believe that censure (warnings or blocks) won't accomplish anything useful. IMO Lsi John has gotten seriously mired in his own quest to find two things that are very elusive on WP: understanding, and rules that are so perfectly written and enforced that they are completely fair. I think the best thing would be to wish him well, leave him alone, and hope that if/when he returns he has gained some distance and can edit articles that don't bring out his less glowing character traits. Anchoress 15:35, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

I have apologized to John for the mistake. Last night I was up very late starting a new article and the last thing I did before going to bed was send a friendly heads up to the editor who had inspired me to start it - or so I thought. That editor has a very similar e-mail address to John's and I was half asleep; I didn't realize the error until I woke up and logged on. John, allow me to be more explicit: I am truly sorry to have antagonized you. It was unintentional. To the other editors here, John and I are both named parties at Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/COFS. On several occasions I have asked him to submit his complaints against me there as evidence. John, other sysops are unlikely to intervene on conduct complaints that relate to an outstanding arbitration case. Durova 16:03, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

E-mail? E-mail? What part of that is "Misplaced Pages?" The contents of an e-mail are private. If some people can claim that they're allowed to call long established editors horrible names on their blog, which is open and begging for readers, and be untouchable, then surely the contents of an e-mail are not appropriate subjects for our concern, much less administrator intervention. If there are threats and stuff, then we have something legitimate, but I can't fathom the number of Evil Kineavel jumps that are necessary for someone to go from "civility" to "personal attack" to "e-mails must be nice" to "let me go to AN/I to complain about someone's tone in e-mail." I think this is a subject for laughing out of court, unless there is some indication of threat. So far as I've heard, it's just, "They're not being nice in private communication." Well, tough: it's private, it's not Misplaced Pages, and it's not appropriate for discussion. Geogre 19:49, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Geogre, he went to my talk page. Other people stepped in and one of them started the thread here. John didn't take this to ANI. No blood, no harm, no foul as Chick Hearn used to say. I could have deleted a couple of posts from my talk space if it had been a problem. We're both named parties at an arbitration case and we've rubbed each other the wrong way, so yeah my mistake was pretty tactless. He and I have buried the hatched over this. I hope that's something positive we can build upon. Durova 00:54, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

No, and that's fine. I just get alarmed when I hear about non-Misplaced Pages stuff being cited as evidence of nearly anything. (No, this doesn't mean I have a strong position on the ED stuff (besides, whenever I see those two letters, I think the next words will be "Cialis").) This is in addition to my worries over folks getting so worried about politeness that they mistake it for community function. I am pleased to be off base and weird looking in this instance. (Weird looking on Misplaced Pages, I mean. Nothing I can do about real life.) Geogre 13:01, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Request from Cerajota

Alithien disregarded two requests not to make further posts in my talk page, this after making some postings regarding an ArbCom we are both participating in. No need for diffs, they are the latest post in my talk page.

Could someone kindly let him know not to do this? I feel he is trolling and I do not want problems. His talk page says he is in wiki leave, so I wont be giving him notice of this AN/I could someone also do this. Thanks!--Cerejota 13:40, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

I will not post any more on Cerejota's talk page.

It is true that he asked me not to post any more and that I posted a last time anyway.

What he forgets to explain here is that, he wrote something such as :

• You are of bad faith (...), do not post any more on my talk page.
• You are a troll (...), do not post any more on my talk page.

And I only posted : "I am not of bad faith. Thank you" and "I am not trolling".

See here precise words used :

Regards, Alithien 13:53, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

(Edit conflict, I was just about to write the same thing.) Sigh. Look, Cerejota, your talk page is specifically there for people to communicate with you. That's its main purpose. That is not a reason for it to be used to harass or unnecessarily annoy you, Misplaced Pages:Civility certainly applies, but the post you're objecting to merely says "I am not of bad faith ! Thank you." That's hardly a personal attack, especially given that it's in response to your writing "Alithien, your inflammatory, bad faith comment on me not understanding is very unproductive." No offense intended, Cerejota, but you just can't write stuff like that and then object to someone responding to it. --AnonEMouse 13:58, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

It think you miss the point, that is not the post I object. What I object is that he posts *twice* diffs refering to an ongoing arbcom, and when I ask him not to post about arbcom outside of the arbcom (to which I have every right), he says he is not talking about arbcom. This after he misquotes me, confuses me, and then all I ask is that my wishes be respected. He questioned my good faith over me not understanding. That for me is enough evidence of non-productive trolling. Thanks! --Cerejota 00:10, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Cerejota, how many people did you accuse of not respecting your "good faith" these last 2 days ? I think you should take a break. Alithien 12:42, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

This is not a big deal. Alithien, please don't forget that if someone asks you not to post at their talkpage, you should be smart and avoid doing that because after all any one can delete whatever they want from their talkpage. Cerejota, you know very well that you could have diffused the situation very easily w/ Alithien w/o referring the AN/I. I am sure they are not a troll and are here collaborating in good faith. I'd consider this as resolved. -- FayssalF - 21:37, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Possible nonsense page

Can someone check this out. I think it's either a nonsense page, or two articles rolled into one (see further down bottom of page). Note the page was created by a user who moments earlier made his first edit on a Request for Adminship page as mentioned further up this page. Davnel03 14:12, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Not nonsense, but probably not worthy of inclusion either. I'd say CSD A7. ^demon 14:25, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm not too fond of how the article is written, but it does have a few ghits.. Perhaps the article just needs to be rewritten? ~Kylu (u|t) 14:34, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Schools don't fall under A7, for some reason.(this part of the policy appears to be in transition?) Looks like advertising to me though. ((1 == 2) ? (('Stop') : ('Go')) 14:36, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Should the page be speedy-deleted then as blatant advertising? Davnel03 16:05, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't think it looks like an ad as much as a poorly made page. ~Kylu (u|t) 16:27, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Agreed - how is it advertising? It just needs some cleanup. Neil ム 17:14, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

After clean up, it's still AfD fodder. Let's see how it fares there. Geogre 19:45, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Sock needs block

Can an uninvolved admin block Oprahwasontv (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) as a sockpuppet of Dereks1x (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)? Oprahwasontv created a RFCU on August 13, where he identified myself as the puppet master for Jersyko (talk · contribs), Turtlescrubber (talk · contribs), HailFire (talk · contribs), Tvoz (talk · contribs), and Bhwin (talk · contribs). This is a standard tactic of Dereks1x. If you check the delete log for the RFCU you'll see that a previous sockpuppet of Dereks1x, Nostasi (talk · contribs), previously filed an RFCU against myself, Jersyko, and Tvoz. Additionally, if you check the history for the RFCU for Dereks1x, you'll see that Lawman8 (talk · contribs), another Dereks1x sock, has used that RFCU to file RFCU's against myself, Jersyko, and Tvoz. And if that is not enough, if you check Jersyko's edit history you'll see that Jersyko has had no contact with Oprahwasontv, so the only way Oprahwasontv could have known about Jersyko was if he was Dereks1x. Side note, Bhwin (talk · contribs) is also probably a sock of Dereks1x's. His only non-userspace edit was a comment on Talk:Barack Obama that is virtually identical to a comment I made to Oprahwasontv on that talk page. Since this edit was made a couple of hours before Oprahwasontv submitted the RFCU, chances are the comment was made so they could mimic my wording and claim Bhwin was my sockpuppet. --Bobblehead 20:17, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Oh.. I forgot. Here's an RFCU Dereks1x filed against Jersyko, myself, and Tvoz. --Bobblehead 20:24, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree with and endorse all of the above, and would block the user(s) myself if not for my involvement. · jersyko talk 20:36, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

RfA, Neil Larson and Android Mouse

Recently, Majorly indefinitely blocked Neil Larson (talk · contribs) for "disruption to the RfA process, with little to no work anywhere else", based on the fact that Neil Larson was giving the same exact same oppose on quite a few RfAs. At that time, I performed a checkuser on Neil Larson, as it was suspected that he was a disruptive sockpuppet of some other account. I found information linking Neil Larson to User:Android Mouse Bot 2, including the fact that the bot stopped editing one minute before Neil Larson's block. Android Mouse later admitted that the Neil Larson account is his, and states that he has not abused our policy on abusing multiple accounts. However, if he has not, he has come very close.

• 21:10, 10 August 2007 - AM supports Crockspot RfA
• 02:30, 15 August 2007 - AM withdraws support for Crockspot RfA due to "reviewing the contributor's edits more thoroughly and reading some of the recent opposes"
• 08:20, 16 August 2007 - NL opposes Crockspot RfA

I request the opinions of others on this matter. Do we believe this is a violation of our policy on multiple accounts, an attempt at gaming the system, not a policy vio but a really stupid idea, or that there is absolutely nothing wrong with this? --Deskana (banana) 20:20, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Also the fact he has done this on a secondary account shows he was trying to avoid getting his main account a "black mark" so to speak - a violation of the sockpuppet policy. Majorly (talk) 20:25, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

I'll leave the policy violation question to others, but there's no question this was a really stupid idea. What was the point? The sock should remain blocked indef and Android Mouse sternly reminded not to make quite such a fool of himself in public - at least. Moreschi 20:27, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

It's a bit hazy in my view. Given the kind of hounding that opposers sometimes get, it's understandable that someone may want to use an alternate account for this. It's not at all clear to me why opposing an RFA would be considered a "black mark". Friday (talk) 20:30, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Have you seen the opposes? They're all identical. This could easily get a "black mark", as other people that have done something similar the past have done. --Deskana (banana) 20:31, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Users who have regularly oppose RfAs (off the top of my head Kmweber, Boothy443 and Masssiveego) aren't ever made welcome on the RfA page. They've had RfCs against them, blocks for exhausting community's patience... in my view this was preventing yet another RfA troller. Majorly (talk) 20:36, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Personally its all very dubious - a 'crat reviewing a close run RFA could easily count a withdrawn support as part of evidence of consensus moving away from a candidate plus Android Mouse gets an oppose as well. Effectively a double whammy against the candidate. I have no idea where the policy on this is but this was an extremely foolish action and I'm rather disappointed that Android Mouse doesn't understand why the sock account got blocked. Spartaz

(ec) Alright, it makes him look foolish. I tend to see that as its own punishment, though. If stop viewing opposing an RFA as some kind of sin, perhaps people will feel comfortable using their regular accounts for this purpose. Friday (talk) 20:38, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

If they are comfortable to oppose every RfA, or most RfAs, they should be comfortable to use their regular account. Majorly (talk) 20:41, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

(e.c.) This case appears to fall under the following forbidden uses of sock puppets per WP:SOCK:

• "Multiple accounts should not be used as a way of avoiding the scrutiny of your fellow editors by ensuring you leave no audit trail."
• "All users, but especially admins and potential admin candidates, are proscribed from operating a "bad hand" account for the purpose of policy violations or disruption." (my emphasis)

So, yes, I think that there has been a violation of our policy on multiple accounts. Sandstein 20:46, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

It looks like stupidity to me - attempting to avoid the stigma of changing from support to oppose. As I do not believe it to be loading the voting, since NL and AM are not voting for the same thing, I would have suggested the discovery and commenting was sufficient punishment for AM, except for the various identical opposes that NL made to other RfA's to (presumably) cover AM's tracks. This is/was unfair to other candidates. I feel that AM should acknowledge the potential unfortunate consequences to these individuals, and would like AM to issue an apology to them and the community. LessHeard vanU 20:49, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, and I don't think a block of the main account (the sock is already blocked indef) is warranted. LessHeard vanU's suggestion should be more than adequate. Moreschi 20:50, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

A most unwelcome development. I would much rather candidates receive some feedback from an editor they might recognise rather than from a sockpuppet they won't. Behaviour an editor is unwilling to carry out on their main account should never be carried out on a secondary account, especially with a process as personal as Request for Adminship. Nick 20:52, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

• This is clearly contrary to WP:SOCK: "Avoiding scrutiny from other editors". There was no other reason for it. A very ill-conceived action on this editor's part. Hiberniantears 20:57, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Addition I would also like to say that everyone does stupid things from time to time. I also think that blocking the sock is sufficient, and that keeping an otherwise solid editor on board with the project is the way to go. Hiberniantears 00:16, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I left a note for Android Mouse (talk · contribs) about this thread... — Scientizzle 21:17, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Contrary to what AM said, I feel that the block of his other account was justified. A block is not warranted here, but an apology to the community and the candidates is enough. Singularity 21:26, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

As one of the candidates he opposed, I'm not even sure that an apology is necessary. His opposition left nothing actionable, so I doubt a beurocrat would have taken it seriously. His opposition was based around a policy he evidently disagrees with, and obviously had nothing to do with any of the editors he opposed. I find it hard to take that personally, as his issue is not about my fitness to be an admin. I also find it comical that he opposed candidates who were nominated by someone else yesterday, while another editor was opposing candidates who were self-nominated today. I guess we just can't win. ;o) Resolute 21:32, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

I consider that the oppose vote/reason was made in bad faith, in that it appears that AM/NL was trying to legitimise an earlier oppose in another RfA (which they had previously supported and then changed to neutral) by voting similarly on others. I admire your stance toward your own candidature, but yours was not the only RfA that was abused. LessHeard vanU 21:54, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

• Looking it over, it seems pretty clear to me that this is a pretty WP:POINTy disruption in response to the voting pattern of Kmweber (the use of a latin legal phrase, arbitrary criteria), and not an attempt to influence any specific RfA. Which is still bad, but certainly a much lower level of abuse, in my opinion. No opinion as to whether a block of the main account is appropriate. -Chunky Rice 22:17, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
• I believe that the actions performed by the sock account were deliberate and considered and that a further deliberate choice was made to perform them on a sock account in an attempt to deceive. That is, AM used the sock account in less than good faith. I endorse a block on the sock account. I do not, however, endorse a full block on the main account. I think a public reprimand and having your dirty laundry publicly aired is quite enough in this case. - Philippe | Talk 22:25, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
• I concur with those saying that the secondary account be blocked and that the primary account not be blocked. This user, despite having made a poor decision here has been a strong contributor and bot operator IMO and should not be punished long-term for what we believe to be a single infraction. I *would* feel better if the user would acknowledge that what they did was wrong, as so far he seems to be indicating otherwise. Obviously any future foolishness should be treated more severely. --After Midnight 23:36, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
• Sometimes people do stupid things, I can see how this started as just a misguided attempt to have some fun. We should remember that blocks aren't supposed to be doled out just to punish people... do we really think AM will continue to do this? He was apparently a valuable contributer, so I say we give him a second chance. --W.marsh 00:05, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't know what this "bye" means, but I do know that the blocking of AM is not necessary. Apparently he has already suffered the consequences of his actions, which were clear violations of WP:SOCK. --Boricuaeddie 00:20, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

• Sock blocked = good. Nothing more need be done. — Scientizzle 00:22, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, as an aside, are checkusers really supposed to act like police detectives as seen at ? Asking a question to try to trap someone... that seems a bit over the top. It's also surprising that checkusers will just go fishing for alternate accounts now and just reveal that information freely... I remember in the past it was impossible to get this done even with accounts that were genuinely disruptive and obviously a sock of someone. --W.marsh 00:33, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

That probably wasn't the wisest course of action on my part, but the checkuser evidence on it's own wasn't enough at the time. I could have handled that better, I suppose. --Deskana (banana) 10:15, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't think there was an intent to "deceive" the way I usually think of the word, or cover any tracks. It was either a joke, or more likely trying to make some point (not sure what point, exactly) about Kurt Weber without having to suffer any consequences. Borderline pointy, but not "disruputive", and not worth a block on NL. However, the fact that AM participated in Crockspot's RfA twice, even though technically not double voting, is a legit reason to indef block the sock, although i don't know how this affects AMBotII. Whether or not AM apologizes, I jump on the bandwagon of people who see no need for further action. --barneca (talk) 00:55, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

• I have some slight concerns over both the blocking of the Neil Larson account, and the use of an identity check. I would have thought there needed to be some clear evidence of disruption before either of these things were done. I see no such evidence. While the use of the Neil Larson account did indicate it was a secondary account, that in itself - while frowned upon - is not in itself disruptive. The Neil Larson account did some general tidying editing, modest but useful, and then made individualistic oppose comments in 6 RfAs (one later withdrawn). The oppose comments attracted some casual side discussion; nothing that would reflect badly on the candidates, and nothing that turned unpleasant. There was no disruption. Now, I can understand that people felt (rightly) that Neil Larson was a secondary account. And I can understand that people might disagree with what that account was doing. But to take that disagreement to the level of a CheckUser and a Block seem inappropriately strong measures. Was there something else that could have been done first? I see no evidence of anyone talking to the account; questioning the behaviour; requesting explanation; asking if the account was a secondary account. The guidance on using CheckUser says: "On Wikimedia wikis, privacy policy considerations are of tremendous importance. Unless someone is definitely violating policy with their actions (e.g. massive bot vandalism or spam), revealing their IP, whereabouts or other information sufficient to identify them is likely a violation.". This says: "The tool is to be used to fight vandalism, to check for sockpuppet abuse, and to limit disruption of the project. It must be used only to prevent damage to one or several of Wikimedia projects.

The tool should not be used for political control; to apply pressure on editors; or as a threat against another editor in a content dispute. There must be a valid reason to check a user. Note that alternative accounts are not forbidden, so long as they are not used in violation of the policies (for example, to double-vote or to increase the apparent support for any given position)." The guidance on using a Block says "Blocks are used to prevent damage or disruption to Misplaced Pages, not to punish users."

While I agree that Android Mouse has been unwise in creating this second account for the use it has been put it, a better approach might have been more in the nature of a message to the second (Neil Larson) account rather than the rather seemingly excessive and heavy handed approaches that were taken, and which not only appear to violate Wiki policy, but also violate the Wikimedia Foundation Board of Trustees and maybe even a privacy law or two. Serious stuff, not to played around with or used lightly.

This is a done deal now, but I wanted to put my view forward, and to suggest more caution in the use of Blocks and Checks, and more discussion with users whose behaviour may be odd. SilkTork 09:51, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I've not violated the Privacy Policy. I was careful about that. The privacy policy states that I'm not allowed to reveal information that's personally identifiable, such as location or IP addresses, which I have not. --Deskana (banana) 10:06, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

That's a very narrow interpretation of the Checkuser policy. So Checkuser is for fishing after all. "Do we believe this is a violation of our policy? or that there is absolutely nothing wrong with this?" Use the Checkuser mailing list to ask your questions next time.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.111.135.122 (talk • contribs)

ATrollope (talk · contribs) and WP:POINT

after this comment the user went and proposed deletion on about 15 articles. He's made few other edits to this point.--Crossmr 22:48, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

I think you handled that just fine and we should wait and see if the behavior continues after your talk page message.--Atlan (talk) 23:15, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Confirmed sockpuppets, request for block

It has been confirmed by checkuser that the user Artaxerex has resorted to sockpuppetry to evade a block. The sockpuppet accounts are Arteban, Artaban, Arteban1, and Vazgen. It is noteworthy that the user Artaxerex has already been blocked twice for sockpuppetry some while ago. I would therefore like to ask for this user and his sockpuppet accounts to be blocked from editing.Shervink 23:16, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

While they are all socks, per CU... they're not doing anything that sockpuppets are prohibited from doing. There's no Misplaced Pages policy against having multiple accounts. You're only prohibited to use multiple accounts to get around 3RR, vote multiple times, fake a wider consensus by having multiple accounts support each other in a discussion, etc.

These appear to not have edited anything close enough together that they're abusive, at least not in the last month or two. If you can point to specifics which breach any of our policies in the logs, please feel free to. But I don't see grounds to block them, socks as they may be. Georgewilliamherbert 23:34, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, I'm not versed in the specifics of this case, but using sockpuppets to evade a block is prohibited, and the general response is to reset the block, as well as block the socks. Natalie 00:58, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

The parent account isn't blocked right now, and hasn't been for some months. Georgewilliamherbert 01:38, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

On the other hand, there is an ArbComm case proposal, for which I will note this. GRBerry 04:27, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I think the very fact that an editor who has repeatedly used sockpuppets and has been banned twice is still creating more accounts, shows that he has learned nothing from his past mistakes. He has shown in the past that he is not doing this in good faith, and in fact he still denies even having had any sockpuppets in the past. Moreover, creating multiple accounts all editing on the same page obviously serves the purpose of faking a wider consensus. The other sockpuppet accounts seem to have been created (or at least started to be used) after Arteban1 was blocked, so this can be also considered block evasion. Finally, avoiding scrutiny from other editors is prohibited per policy, and I think that also applies to this case. The important thing is that he denies having multiple accounts, while legitimate users of multiple accounts are encouraged to publicly announce and link them. Shervink 07:17, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

• Please note that shervink and his group are trying to banish me for the content dispute. They have strong racist views that I am against(Natalie is aware of this-- please see my talk page). Shervink and his group do vandalism by bringing a dispute about their srtong pro-Aryan views to unrelated pages (see; talk page in Guity Novin).They should not.
• Their views can be acertained from here where he writes to Behnam an editor/(admin?) to explain why he believes "Iranians are Aryans". He writes:

"When I say that Iranians are not semitic, I mean that both their languages and their culture are quite distinct from those of the semitic people."

In other words he means Iranians of different race (Jews, Arabs, Assyrians etc.) are not Iranians (or are Aryans!). This is not my spin as you can see from Behnam's response to him here:,I have written to him here which reads; "You wrote: ...it is not only the Shah who did not think that Iranians are semitic. Iranians are not semitic. That's nothing new." Your statement is False. There are many Semitic Iranians. Jewish Iranians are Semitic, Arab Iranians are Semitic. In fact, anybody who argues that Jews who have lived in Iran for more than 2500 years are not Iranian not only would be wrong, but also anti-Semitic. I am really disgusted by the above statement, and I hope you really wrote it inadvertently.

• He and his friends (SG, Mehrshad 123, Rayis, ...) use the fact that about 15 of us share the same IP to accuse us of sockpuppertry. This group and the other group should realize that their tactics will not work in open societies.

• Why shervink does not act civil and discuss the content dispute in a civil manner.(he has called me A****** as well as other names. He consider my apologies half hearted and his own persumably full! etc.)

Cheers 140.80.199.91 16:35, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Please stop calling me racist. For the last time, I am neither anti-semitic nor an Aryan suprematist nor have I ever supported such nonsense. This is really getting out of proporsions. What do you want from me? Why do you keep harassing me??!! How is it possible that this guy is calling me racist several times a day on a regular basis and does not receive any significant warnings or reactions? It seems you have got so bold in your uncivil behavior that I don't even have to complain to admins regarding this, you post your personal attacks here on ANI yourself!!! Shervink 17:15, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Then why are you resorting to edit-wars by deleting any comments related for instance to the "Light of Aryans"? Why are you deleting all references that talk about the pro-Nazi policies of Reza shah? why do you and your group call them allied/western propaganda. Why do you call Professors Cottam's seminal book, as well as, those of Bob Feldman, Arthur Goldschmidt,Asghar Fathi,Ernst Bernard Hass, Younes Parsa Benab, Trita Parsi, and ambassdors Anthony Parson, Julius Holmes, and William Sullivan and at least 10 other scholars unreliable !!? Why do you, and your group, try to ban me? I am bold because I have used all these scholars as my sources. You may yet succeed in banning me, but as I stated before, if you fail in your mission, you should expect from me more academic references, and more edits to balance those disputed contents. What do I want from you? I want you to get back to the discussions and let other views also see the light of the day and if you don't like those views try to balance them. Is this too much to ask? Artaxerex 19:53, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

• FYI; I have written the following reminder to Natalie that cotains relevant info about this case:

Dear Natalie, back in the March-April period when I asked your help about the disputed content in Reza Shah Page you wrote me:

I understand your frustration - content disputes can be very frustrating. Going through dispute resolution will probably be the easiest way to solve your problems, and will hopefully yield a better article in the long run! Natalie 21:23, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

and about a month later when I asked again for your help to mediate you wrote:

Hello again. I have taken a look at the article and at the talk page, and I don't feel like I can render any judgment in this dispute. Dispute resolution isn't really my field, and this is a more complex dispute than some. Please take a look at the options in dispute resolution for more help. Natalie 00:26, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

* Later,I did try various dspute resolution options. I even thought it may help if I go to step 2 and leave the page for few months. However. Behnam an admin discouraged me from doing so. He wrote here :

You can leave if you want to, but I'm not sure how much it will help. I interpret Step 2 as recommending disengagement so that those involved can cool down a bit, but I don't know if that is applicable with SG. I wish SG would just sit back and give you a chance but he continues to attack you on the talk page. Honestly, leaving will only delay the content dispute - everything will be the same when you come back. So its up to you if you want to take a break - the situation will probably be just about the way you left it, but a break from Misplaced Pages might be nice. In sum, disengagement probably won't affect the content dispute, but it may be a nice break :-). The Behnam 05:10, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

* I hope you realize that I was trying in Good Faith to edit the article. I fill blocking me will only help a group of fanatics to push their POVs. Respectfully yours. Artaxerex 23:43, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Spies appear to be editing on Misplaced Pages

Yesterday, I alerted AN/I of a BBC News article reporting that Misplaced Pages has determined that the Democratic Party in the United States has been attacking its opponents on Misplaced Pages. See http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/6947532.stm The CIA also has done the same thing.

Almost immediately, the AN/I warning was removed. I also placed a warning on 4 controversial articles (2 about Democratic Party members and 2 on Republican Party members). All except 1 was immediately removed. This suggests that there may be spies working for 3 of the 4 politicians.

One of the articles that have potential spies working for it is Barack Obama (warning was immediately removed from that talk page.) Ophrahwasontv was writing in that article.

It seems that spies have fooled an administrator into blocking an editor who was proven not to be a sock. See RFCU clearing Ophrahwasontv.

See where it says Unlikely for Oprahwasontv Collaborating with spies, even if by mistake, is bad for wikipedia. Remember, wikipedia determined that there are spies working against us according to the news article. I am shocked by the spies on Misplaced Pages. Orginally, I thought that there would be little controversy about the article since Misplaced Pages, itself, determined that there is spying.

Ophrah should be unblocked as she was blocked because of spies campaigning against her. More importantly, any content dispute should be examined for content, not number of editors editing because that is subject to manipulation by spies.

I don't care about Ophrah so much but people who reported to AN/I (causing her block) fail the duck test. They (the spies who attacked Ophrah) appear like socks and they were NOT cleared by the checkuser. The article they edit contentiously had my Misplaced Pages warning and the warning was removed within seconds.

The duck test is "If you complain about the spies being socks" then you must be a sock (because once a sock did make such complaint). With that flawed duck test, the spies are invincible (everyone who complains about the spies will be blocked indefinitely).

I am not so concerned about Barack Obama or Ophrah. I am concerned about the spy issue on Misplaced Pages. Since Hillary Clinton's article talk page still has my warning, I don't think she has active spies on her article.Warningwarningwarning 23:32, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

If you feel that there are editors pushing a POV for or against certain politicians, it would be best to name them and provide edit diffs. Otherwise we can't really do anything about it. --Hemlock Martinis 23:36, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

This little tool, http://wikiscanner.virgil.gr/, will identify IP edits on wikipedia coming from a specific organization. seems to be down quite a bit (sever load) and slow, however its amazing what it uncovers. Happy hunting--Hu12 23:42, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

This user has been indefinitely blocked for disruption. They were blocked earlier for similar behavior on politician's WP articles, promised the blocking admin they would positively contribute, and then re-started this all as soon as the shortened 24 hr block expired.

I have indef blocked on the grounds that this is disruption and a single-purpose account. Georgewilliamherbert 23:45, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Warningwarningwarning (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) has just given himself away as being another sock of banned user Dereks1x. Oprahwasontv (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) was just blocked as another one of his 30 socks. See this and above here. I would suggest that bhwin (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) also be blocked as per this: not as a sock of myself, Bobblehead, Jersyko et al, but as another SPA sock of Dereks1x, established, again, in a lame attempt to legitimize the bogus RFCU on us. Tvoz |talk 23:52, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

"Spies" editing Misplaced Pages? That's a fresh new twist on the cabal conspiracy theories... Grandmasterka 00:25, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Actually no it's not. I heard on the radio just the other day about how government officials in the US have been tampering with the Iranian pages... Timeshift 00:30, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes, and you don't have to just hear it on the radio, it is on the wikiscanner website, so you can see for yourself once it is back up. Not to say that the edits are bad, particularly from the CIA. Although it is a tad distressing this is how they are passing time. =) daveh4h 01:00, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

This is not about whether there is factual evidence of those edits by the CIA, other agencies, companies, etc... That's now widely known, and has been for some days now. There was no emergency or emergent situation that justified trying to plaster large sections of the encyclopedia with warnings like this. Georgewilliamherbert 01:05, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

If it weren't for the sockpuppet relation, I would say that indefinitely blocking this guy is a bit out of line. It is not unreasonable to imagine someone, not familiar with Misplaced Pages, hearing about this and trying to start discussion about it. I recall not too long ago a teacher being blocked because they posted a survey (about Misplaced Pages editing) to some user talk pages, without even getting a warning before the block. We shouldn't forget that many people will not know how we normally do things, and we shouldn't be quick to block like this. -- Ned Scott 00:39, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

In this case, the deciding factor for me was that they promised to change behavior to get the first block length reduced, and then immediately turned around and started the behavior once the block expired.

I am much more tolerant of troublesome editors who just don't get it than I am of ones who appear to intentionally decieve admins. There are many explanations for not getting it; there's only one for such deception: it's an account for which WP:AGF has been shown to be a mistake.

Anything is possible, and if this turns out somehow bizarrely to have been a misjudgement on my part then so be it, it can be reversed. But this person had several chances and has done pretty much the clearly worst thing they could after each one, short of outright baldly attacking other editors here.

If you want to give them another chance, I won't stop you, but I suspect you'll be dissapointed. Georgewilliamherbert 00:46, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, a good point. Given that he said he would change his behavior, it would be at that point that we know he was aware of how we do things. -- Ned Scott 01:09, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

You can submit your findings here as well. By the way, your thread title is misleading. I don't think a NYT editor can be described as a spy when editing wikipedia from h/er office. -- FayssalF - 10:30, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

A quick aside about the CIA editing wikipedia

Although cyberspace has no national boundaries, Misplaced Pages's servers are based in Florida, USA, and the domain name ".org" is a US registration. If my reading of Tom Clancy novels - and other sources of folklore - are correct isn't the CIA prohibited from operating within US territory? I don't suppose it matters much to the Foundation, but it may have implications for the Agency. LessHeard vanU 13:03, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

AFAIK (and I too am a fan of Clancy) they can't carry out illegal actions on US soil, or operations such as surveillance or wiretaps. I don't see that this would stop them editing Misplaced Pages, which anyone is entitled to do. However, I'm not an expert. Walton 13:28, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

According to a CIA spokesperson, "the US Intelligence agency is editing Misplaced Pages pages in order to save Americans lives". Of course they are entitled to edit but i just find their reasons odd. Editors here are not entitled to defend anyone's interests. -- FayssalF - 14:34, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, if they put outside interests ahead of Misplaced Pages's interests, that's a conflict. There's nothing special about the CIA as far as we are concerned. I'm not aware of any law that says website operators must allow the CIA to review and modify content as they see fit. Somehow I don't think many Congress people will vote for CIA censorship of websites, given that we have the First Amendment and the Constitution. - Jehochman 14:42, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes WP:COI but sneaky vandalism as well at Ahmadinejad's article. ;) -- FayssalF - 14:52, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I can imagine a number of BLP violations that could put lives at risk. THF 14:50, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

(Reply to Jehochman) So you're saying that our internal policy of neutrality is more important than saving lives? For the record, I'm not American, and I certainly don't endorse routine censorship of websites. However, it's established that the intelligence and security services of the free, Western world have a right and a duty to do what is necessary to protect citizens' lives. Misplaced Pages's policies are important to us, but they are not the most important thing in the world. Morally, we should not be fighting against the intelligence services (whether American, British or otherwise) who are daily risking their lives to protect citizens. The situation would be totally different if a dictatorship such as North Korea or Iran, or a terrorist group, was editing Misplaced Pages to advance their agenda - they should be stopped. But not the people whose mission is to defend the free world. My moral commitment to freedom and protection of lives trumps my commitment to Misplaced Pages policies any day, and I hope others feel the same. Walton 14:56, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree w/ you about it is important to know what comes first (saving lives) but i believe your analysis is totally biased. What about CIA covert operations all over the world? (i.e Project FUBELT and tens of others) Saving lives? What about lies and misleading info about Iraq WMD? How many people died because of that war? -- FayssalF - 15:08, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

As an aside to an aside, I don't think OhmyNews is a terribly reliable source of information. The article FayssalF references above has several highly questionable, unsourced claims. I could be wrong, but until I see something more trustworthy, I sort of doubt that's a direct quote by a "CIA spokesperson". And did Wikipeida really "hire" Virgil Griffith? --barneca (talk) 15:05, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

It is on the BBC link above. And did Wikipeida really "hire" Virgil Griffith? Is this a conspiracy theory? So Misplaced Pages may only have recruited Virgil to trap the CIA. What about SONY, The Vatican, Al Jazeera, etc... editting? Is this a joke? -- FayssalF - 15:16, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

No, not a joke. The OhmyNews link you provided says, specifically, that Misplaced Pages "hired" Virgil Griffith. I don't think that is true. I use that as evidence that this particular source is questionable. The BBC article does not quote the CIA spokesperson as saying "the US Intelligence agency is editing Misplaced Pages pages in order to save Americans lives". That appears to be a paraphrase made up by the OhmyNews reporter. --barneca (talk) 15:21, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Maybe but that's irrelevant as Walton was implying that CIA people are editing to save people's lives. How? He was also implying that CIA can edit but not the Iranian govt! This is insane. The important thing here are wikipedia policies and not charity. We are not a law enforcement body. If CIA has to edit here then it should abide by Misplaced Pages rules. If you think otherwise than CIA editing Misplaced Pages would not have appeared in most mainstream media around the world. And please tell me how come CIA editing would save lives? -- FayssalF - 15:32, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I think you think I have some agenda here. All I was pointing out is that I don't think a CIA spokesperson actually said the CIA is "editing Misplaced Pages pages in order to save Americans lives", and that the whole OhmyNews article should be taken with a giant grain of salt. Anything else you read into my comment is either confusing me with Walton, putting words in my mouth, or I suppose possibly my lack of clarity. That's why I called it an aside to an aside. I'll leave you and Walton to continue your discussion, and move on to other things. --barneca (talk) 15:48, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

The news story may well be junk. As pointed out above, it's on a single website and isn't corroborated by published sources. And I, too, doubt the accuracy of the statement they ascribe to an unnamed "CIA spokesperson". In response to FayssalF's earlier comments, yes, my analysis is slightly biased. 99.9% of the time, I, like other Wikipedians, abide by WP:NPOV and Misplaced Pages's other core content policies while editing Misplaced Pages. However, Misplaced Pages is in the real world, and there are fundamental values which, for me, supersede Misplaced Pages's internal policies. This is not intended as a partisan rant; I don't endorse all the actions of the CIA, and, as I said, I'm not even American. But we have to trust the people whose job it is to defend freedom and democracy, even if they (like everyone else) sometimes make mistakes, or take morally questionable actions for the greater good. Walton 15:26, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Why? --John 15:31, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Which part of my statement does your query refer to? Walton 15:33, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Why? But we have to trust the people whose job it is to defend freedom and democracy. Do you have to trust people who lied about WMD? It was the CIA who were responsible of a death of almost a million people in this shitty war. -- FayssalF - 15:35, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

(reset indent) Sorry I wasn't clear. Why do you believe we "have to trust" an intelligence agency, who, for all they may well be trying to "defend freedom and democracy", will also by definition be working according to their own priorities, one of which is probably not to improve this on-line encyclopedia? --John 15:38, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Given that the CIA's covert operations are not public knowledge, any alleged revelation of any alleged CIA operations are not possible to verify according to Misplaced Pages standards, and are thus inherently ineligible for inclusion in Misplaced Pages. Baseball Bugs 15:37, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Just because a government agancy uses "saving lives" as an excuse doesn't mean its true. I am sure people at the agency see their core goal as saving american lives so they could say that everything they do is to save lives. We could also probably save lives by rewriting history and writing out all the reasons for strife. We should not blindly trust "the people whose job it is to defend freedom," or we lose the freedom we are trying to protect. I am sure the KGB and the North Korean intelligence services also claim to be saving lives and protecting freedom. If the CIA wants to edit wikipedia articles let them follow the same rules that we all follow. -- Diletante 15:42, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

To answer various points. In response to John, yes, of course the CIA and other government agencies are working according to their own priorities, and not to improve the encyclopedia. However, what I was saying is that the priorities of security and intelligence agencies - saving lives and protecting freedom - are more important than improving Misplaced Pages. Don't get me wrong. I value Misplaced Pages, I think it's a great project, and I've dedicated hours of my life to it. But we should remember that there are things in the real world which are more important than the accuracy and completeness of our encyclopedia; security and freedom are among them. As to Baseball Bugs' point, no one is aiming to reveal alleged CIA operations or include them in Misplaced Pages; that's not what this discussion is about. Walton 15:43, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Oh, heavens. I am no fan of the new CIA, the political one, the one happy to undo the reforms of 1974, or any intelligence agency, but CIA editors are just editors. <shrug> It's possible that some wild-eyed editor writes, into an article, "Currently in a bunker at coordinates X by Y" and CIA editors know that that's actually a real position of troops, but the edit would be part of our usual process. If, on the other hand, they try to get Dick Cheney's house erased from photos on Misplaced Pages, that's another matter. They're just regular users, with regular rights, albeit with possibly specialized knowledge. Geogre 15:46, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree with most of that, but not all. If the CIA, MI6, or another relevant agency privately contacted Misplaced Pages admins or the Foundation and asked to have a piece of sourced information removed from Misplaced Pages on the grounds of national security, then I hope we would do it. As a loyal British citizen, I can assure you that if MI5 or MI6 contacted me and asked me to make certain edits to Misplaced Pages, or use my administrative tools for a certain purpose, on the grounds of national security, then I would do as they requested. (Not that this would ever be likely - they'd more likely contact the Foundation directly.) Walton 15:50, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

And if there was an indication that you had done the latter, I would ask that you be desysopped. Hornplease 20:20, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

To put it another way, if a reliable, published source has some information about CIA operations, then it is eligible for inclusion. And if it's already published, then the "saving lives" argument goes down the drain. Baseball Bugs 15:54, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

No, that's not at all what I was saying. I was saying that if, in theory, the CIA were to ask us to remove something that was cited to a reliable published source (whether about CIA operations or any other topic) on the grounds of national security, then we should do so. Bear in mind that even if something has already been published, putting it on Misplaced Pages (a high traffic site) is likely to significantly increase its exposure. If the CIA, MI6, or another relevant agency asks us to change Misplaced Pages in the interests of national security, we shouldn't ask why, or quibble. We should do it straight away. Walton 16:00, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

That's the odd point Walton. In Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines, it is not mentioned that you have to accept requests from CIA agents AND NOT from the Thai or Zambia's intelligence. It is about common sense and not about which agency contacted you. Would you deny Pakistani or Iranian intelligence services requests in case they'd contact you? -- FayssalF - 16:02, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Woah, did something change while I was sleeping? We are still a free country, right? --Kbdank71 16:12, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I disagree completely, If the CIA asks the foundation to do something we SHOULD quibble AND ask why. We should not do it straight away without talking to a lawyer and recieving a court-order. THat is what freedom is, bowing to the whims of three letter agencies destroys our freedom. In the US our FIRST right ennumarated is freedom of speech and the press. -- Diletante 16:14, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Since when is there any evidence that anyone who is actually from the CIA has asked Misplaced Pages to do anything? Baseball Bugs 16:17, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I have just been asked by my CIA handler to archive this hypothetical discussion begun by a disruptive sockpuppet so that we can all get back to work saving lives building the encyclopedia. MastCell 16:32, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes please because someone has just used this thread at wired.com in the form of a complaint! They even know who is an admin and who is not! -- FayssalF - 16:39, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Forsooth! Ods bodkins! Sufferin' succotash! Baseball Bugs 16:58, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

(unindent)...Er, folks, it was just a lighthearted comment. As far as I am aware the FBI acts within US territory interest and the CIA outside - but a lot of Misplaced Pages is physically within the USA.

For one, I would be delighted if either or both agencies (and those of other Nations) were to openly contribute to WP - intelligence gathering is a lot more to do with sifting and analysing information from various legitimate sources than the cloak and dagger stuff; access to that kind of database would be incredible - but I am not so happy if some of the bastions of democracy (y'know - the goodies who would never lie or do anything bad, and are answerable to their mistakes) were to introduce bias into the encyclopedia. It is difficult enough trying to convince individuals that their beliefs or opinions are not legitimate grounds to alter pieces, I don't even want to try picking through the edits of professional purveyors of half truths.

As for the argument that defending democracy legitimises the use of non democratic methods is akin to the old joke of fucking for virginity. They are supposed to be working for us, not the other way round. LessHeard vanU 19:25, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Legal threats by user 24.168.46.238

User 24.168.46.238 has made legal threats against CyberGhostface and say he will 'be in contact with a private investigator in order to find the true identity and location of CyberGhostface' .Edward321 23:41, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

This IP was blocked earlier today. ˉˉ╦╩ 23:49, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

And I've semiprotected his user talk page for the duration of his block (48h) to stop the trolling and threats. He said he will not be returning after the block expires. Let's hope that's true. Mr.Z-mantalk¢ 23:52, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

I saw he was blocked for 48 hours, but he has continued to make legal threats after his block. Edward321 23:54, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Block has been extended to six months for ongoing harrassment and legal threats. Georgewilliamherbert 23:58, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Semiprotection extended to match block. Mr.Z-mantalk¢ 00:02, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

User Making Contentious edits while content dispute is in place

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

I am trying to leave the situation but having a difficult time actually doing this. allowing me to do this. Ksy92003 (talk · contribs) is making contentious edits under the premise of WP:DATE despite the fact that WP:DATE does include a section where Sports seasons can be directly linked to (see: 1997 NFL season). All edits under the WP:DATE need to be reverted per the section where it says ". Piped links to pages that are more focused on a topic are possible (1997), but cannot be used in full dates, where they break the date-linking function."

This has been discussed in numerous places and is in fact part of a much larger dispute going on between myself, this user, and one other. Please step in and stop this so that it does not create extra work for others. The choice of display has not been discussed and due to the fact that all editors are very passionate about this, we need a "status quo" instituted. Juan Miguel Fangio| ►Chat  00:54, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I have yet to see a dispute about the edits that I was making. Here is a quote that is currently on User talk:Aviper2k7 that relates to this; this was an issue for WP:BASEBALL:

If the date does not contain both a month and a day, date preferences do not apply: linking or not linking the date will make no difference to the text that the reader sees. So when considering whether such a date should be linked or not, editors should take into account the usual considerations about links, including the recommendations of Misplaced Pages:Only make links that are relevant to the context. There is consensus among editors that bare month and day names should not be linked unless there is a specific reason that the link will help the reader to understand the article. There is less agreement about links to years. Some editors believe that links to years are generally useful to establish context for the article. Others believe that links to years are rarely useful to the reader and reduce the readability of the text. Another possibility is to link to a more specific article about that year, for example 2006 , although some people find this unintuitive because the link leads to an unexpected destination.

This isn't set in stone, so there is nothing that says I can't do what I was doing; in fact, it points in favor of me removing the links. The end says "Another possibility is to link to a more specific article about that year, for example 2006 , although some people find this unintuitive because the link leads to an unexpected destination." To avoid this confusion, removing the links altogether is the best way to avoid any conflicting opinions. Ksy92003(talk) 01:05, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

• You are improperly citing MOS pages (wp:date) as your defense. You have mistated the information available there. This is a discussion that needs to take place. You are well aware of all the disputes and considering all the rift raft between the two of us over the recent weeks, I cannot view these edits as anything other than problematic. As I have said, status quo is the proper approach. If the content is already in there in a particular format, and as the discussions that have been had on this in the past have not achieved a consensus, AND as you and i are in the middle of a heated battle - this needs to stop. Juan Miguel Fangio| ►Chat  01:10, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

There also was a discussion that User:Pats1 directed you to: Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject National Football League/archive5#Links in infoboxes. Ksy92003(talk) 01:13, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

• I have read that a) no consensus was arrived at and b) it is an incomplete discussion at best as no reference was made to WP:DATE or anything else. My point still stands, as the information is at hand - I will again ask you to leave the information alone until our "behavior related disputes" can be sorted out. The request is that an admin roll back these changes per the dispute and the widespread nature of the eidts. Juan Miguel Fangio| ►Chat  01:17, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
• for the history of the Dick Lane (American football) article. This person refused DR early on and is now simply acting in haste and without respect for polite discussion. I'm not sure anything else can be said. I will wait until a response is issued before I make any more edits. to these pages. Juan Miguel Fangio| ►Chat  01:20, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

This is not even the place to discuss this. Now, you are seriously on the verge of Misplaced Pages:Harassment. Just because you, one person doesn't believe me isn't a reason to bring me to ANI. Discuss this at the project page, not here; this isn't for these types of disputes. I'll repeat again from the quote above: "although some people find this unintuitive because the link leads to an unexpected destination." This is strong support and reasonable-enough evidence to support removal of the pipes. Just because you disagree with the edits means you have to report me? You are so close from Misplaced Pages:Harassment. You're the one who has said that you're trying to disengage. This isn't really proving that. Stop harassing me. Ksy92003(talk) 01:23, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

• I suggested early on that we go the WP:DR route - if you are willing to reconsider your position - please start the process, i will participate so long as the terms laid out on the DR page are respected. I am filing a 3RR notice in the meantime, please visit that page in the next 10 minutes to see the filing. Juan Miguel Fangio| ►Chat  01:43, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I haven't violated 3RR, you have. I've made only 3 reverts, you've made four already. I've given you reasons why I've made my edits, you haven't. Just stop bothering me and let me edit, alright? Ksy92003(talk) 01:46, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Stoping hate editing

Users Roremaster and Roramaster are sockpuppets but I am not writing because of that. All in all until now he has edited 3 articles and in both is seen hate speach about Croats. First article is Dalmatian anti-Serb riots of May 1991 which he is changing to Dalmatian Serb pogrom of May 1991. Using word pogrom, Kristallnacht for 1 day nationalistic riots in which nobody is hurt (but propriety is destroyed) is if nothing else but false. His second editing is Prebilovci Massacre in which even he accept that between 1945 and 1990 nobody has known or spoken about this "massacre". If in article there is no clear sources for event ...... His last editing is in article Čapljina which is very similar to others because he is writing of Croats crimes but without source of statement and even he accept that this has not happen in Čapljina city. Because all this arguments users Roremaster and Roramaster are hate editors on wiki and in my personal thinking they need to be blocked. ---Rjecina 02:25, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Alexithymia

There is a tricky little problem here, User:Soulgany101 is putting in all sorts of statements cited to single surnames, with no reference to the work concerned, usually, easy enough to rectify, but, in this case, believe it or not, the name "Taylor" resolves to several potential sources, not all accessible online.

It seems to0 me only reasonable enough to ask User:Soulgany101 to put in the full reference, but he won't. My telepathic skills are dodgey at best, so I cannot work it out. I like to AGF but as I accidentally happen to know User:Soulgany101 is the author of a self-published book on Alexithymia, and has a tendency to POV push I find it hard here. HELP!!! --Zeraeph 02:47, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Your less-than-stellar telepathy skills might not have led you to Alexithymia#References, but I think you should take a second look. I've protected the article as a precautionary measure to halt this weird edit war. ˉˉ╦╩ 02:56, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Mea Culpa, I concede, my telepathy sucks, and, of course, you have probably protected the wrong version, in accord with protocol (so I am told) but thanks :o) --Zeraeph 03:02, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Don't worry about it, I'm just glad that this was resolved before both of you were blocked for violating WP:3RR. Please take the time to ask around before seeking administrative intervention, us admins are a blunt and random force. ˉˉ╦╩ 03:05, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I suppose a little "blunt and random" force to persuade him to clean up his own citations, in a single, understandable, style, is out of the question? Yes? No? :o) --Zeraeph 03:11, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Work it out at talk:Alexithymia. Note that there are many valid styles of citation, consistency is the key to maintaining clarity. ˉˉ╦╩ 03:16, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Exactly! But I talk, he ignores...--Zeraeph 03:18, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

It's the other way around, the way I see it. You have accused Soulgany101 of breaching civility when his responses are calm and polite. Given the subject matter involved, I suggest a bit more patience and assuming good faith. This particular AN/I thread should be put to rest.ˉˉ╦╩ 03:23, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

That's actually not so, I tried here and here . I also do not think it is even slightly WP:CIVIL to present the removal of material he cannot be bothered to cite clearly as a "blanking frenzy". All he had to do was correct the citations, or say he didn't know how...what he did was tell me to "Improve the cite, don't remove it" on which, with all the good faith in the world I found I could not possibly do as there is more than one paper produced by a "Taylor" on Alexithymia in 1997. --Zeraeph 03:35, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

RookZERO is back from 3RR block and continues where he left off

This is predictable and will be just another 4RR or so. Misou 01:55, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

This blocking does not work with him. Voila: Diff 1, Diff 2, Diff 3, Diff 4 (sneaky1), Diff 5 (sneaky2)

Misou 03:05, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Bingo, just happened. Please freeze this page, put it under probation or whatever, this is senseless editing and no progress. Misou 03:36, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Legal threats from a pair of SPA SSP accounts

A legal complaint has been posted on many pages and tag-team reverted by these apparent sockpuppet or meatpuppets. I'm not positive this constitutes a technical legal threat, but it includes a lot of legal terms and has been repeated so much I believe administrative review would be advisable.

Users posting the threats:

• C00483033 (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
• Rondus (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Both are single-purpose accounts that began posting the legal threats as soon as they started editing around a week ago.

Active WP:SSP reports currently listing these accounts:

• Misplaced Pages:Suspected sock puppets/Frater FiatLux (2nd)
• Misplaced Pages:Suspected sock puppets/Kephera975

Examples of diffs where the threats were posted, one for each of the above accounts:

• posted by C00483033
• posted by Rondus

Also, the full text of the same legal complaining was added by User:Rondus in his rebuttal to the first SSP report listed above.

Each of the two SSP reports also include five more diffs for each of the two accounts, for a total of ten diffs, showing the same legal complaint posted again and again on various pages and with tag-team reversions when the content was removed by others. There are additional examples that have not been posted as diffs.

Within the long text, this is the part that reads like a threat, that made me think I should post this notice here:

When the knowingly inaccurate and misleading defacement of the H.O.G.D../A+O article by Cicero-associate IPSOS was repeatedly corrected, IPSOS subsequently enlisted the assistance of Misplaced Pages editorial staff in freezing the H.O.G.D./A+O article; and unlawfully depriving the H.O.G.D./A+O of its legal name and mark by arbitrarily renaming the article describing the order to “Rosicrucian Order of the Alpha et Omega.” It is therefore requested that the H.O.G.D./A.O. article be unfrozen and returned to its appropriate legal name of “Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn (Rosicrucian Order of the Alpha et Omega).”

For context, IPSOS (talk · contribs) is a good faith editor who edits many topics. He has clearly and specifically answered the above complaint stating that it is inaccurate. His reply follows the copy of the legal threat posted by User:Rondus at Misplaced Pages:Suspected sock puppets/Frater FiatLux (2nd). Because User:IPSOS name was mentioned in the legal threats, I checked with him before posting this and he concurred that it would be good to report the situation here.

I request that an administrator experienced with legal threat issues please review this and the related SSP reports. If this is the wrong place to post this information, please direct me to the proper noticeboard for legal threats. Thanks. --Parsifal _Hello 04:10, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Block request per CU recommendation

Based upon Deskana's comments at Misplaced Pages:Requests for checkuser/Case/Muntuwandi, it seems that Godongwana (talk · contribs) should be blocked for "being disruptive in its own right." It wasn't clear to me whether or not Deskana was saying that Godongwana is an obvious abusive sockpuppet of Muntuwandi, specifically (I've requested clarification at User talk:Deskana#Request), but what is clear is that Godongwana should be blocked. Thanks in advance for any help with this matter. The Behnam 04:47, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Re: 75.183.170.77 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)

75.183.170.77's behaviour on the article's China and Republic of China have been distruptive and he/she has been, pardon my language, a pain in the arse. To deal with this person, you would have to violate 3RR, both physically and in spirit. It has been fustrating to deal with this person's POV and political agenda. This IP has been determine to make edits that are, as a fellow editor said to me, "incoherent, grammatically incorrect, and sometimes insulting", and is the embodiment of WP:IAR, but instead of using it for the betterment of the encyclopaedia, he/she uses it to trample the work and efforts of others. This IP also has no regard for the views of the other editors. As I have said before, 75.183.170.77's actions are distruptive and he/she should be dealt with. nat 05:35, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I sprotected the page for a week - this is a content dispute, which admins generally are loathe to get involved in - please take it to talk and try to work it out in that time. If you can, please let the U.S. State Department know how you did it, because I think they struggle with the same thing. :-) I'm not going to block or warn any users over this particular content dispute... - Philippe | Talk 05:41, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. nat 05:47, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Frontline (magazine) entry...

This is with regard to the entry for Frontline (magazine).. An earlier version about the magazine, which lists out the niche, achievements and the genre of the magazine is repeatedly being vandalized by a person User:Lib Democrat who places POV content on the entry. The issue has already been discussed in the "Discussion page" and the vandal has been repeatedly asked to present her/his views in the discussion page. Yet, the user, "Lib Democrat" refuses to discuss the piece.

I request administrators to kindly revert the piece to the earlier version (under the name, User:Vrsrini and protect it till "Lib Democrat" is willing to present her/his views in the Discussion page. If the vandal persists with the repeated edit-war without recourse to discussion, I request he/she be blocked. I leave it to the discretion of the administrators to take a call. Thanks. User: Vrsrini

The page is already protected. There is no relevant discussion on the talk page. Please discuss there and try to come to a consensus. Kusma (talk) 07:33, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Also see m:The Wrong Version. Kusma (talk) 07:34, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

It's been protected several times, without any discussion on the talkpage. One of the editors has repeatedly asked for a discussion, the other has not. Under such circs, I hardly think protecting a fourth time and suggesting the talkpage is the best way out. Hornplease 20:45, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Protocol on closing AfDs: a query

Hi, can someone tell me: is it admins only who are entitled to close AfDs? I ask, because of this. Coldmachine 10:29, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Irrespective of that question this, rather new user, is involved in the debate, which precludes closure. I note this uncivil edit summary, as well as the fact that the AfD was closed "due to inaction from administrators since requesting closure on WP:AN on 14 August." And in the edit immediately preceding this (the closure):"striking my keep vote" (!) Anyway, protected till we sort it out, but clearly invalid. El_C 10:45, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I am in the midst of reviewing the debate and will be issuing a decision in a few minutes. El_C 11:08, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Non-admins are allowed to close such debates, although obviously they'll have some trouble deleting the page on their own, and they're liable to get complaints if they make any controversial closes (though the same goes for admins). In this case, the user participated in the discussion, which would preclude their closing it, regardless of their account status. Although I can sympathize with the frustration, waiting that long for closure. – Luna Santin (talk) 11:18, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't know but i suggest that only admins can close AfDs. I know that this issue should be discussed somewhere else but i am just saying it here to show that it is always problematic for non-admins to close AfDs. -- FayssalF - 11:21, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

For the purposes of this board/issue, you're probably right -- without getting into the various policy disputes, suffice to say that it's a bit controversial. ;) – Luna Santin (talk) 11:29, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I remember when pretty much anyone closed 'keep' AfDs all the time. Perhaps that's inadvisable now we've grown so large, but I am not certain that the change would make it through discussion at, say, the Pump, though it might at WP:DPR. Certainly, it would take away something easy to say at RfAs. ("I've closed AfD's that metWP:SNOW!") Hornplease 20:07, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Closed as delete. See you at deletion review? ;) El_C 11:25, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Apperently, yes!. Incidentally, I love the DRV notice template's "an editor" prelude. It's almost as great as userboxes' "this user." Almost. El_C 13:13, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for clarifying things for me, I appreciate it. I may pop over to deletion review, but I think the right decision was made what with the WP:COI going on in there...! Coldmachine 13:05, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

User:Antho05 - image problems

Take a look at this user's talk page - despite being an editor here since 2006, he/she is still uploading 'bad' images on a regular basis. I don't think I've seen a user with this many image tagging/deletion notices before... --Kurt Shaped Box 11:32, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Need an opinion on deletion of data

An active but very argumentative user has deleted accurate and referenced information from the Indonesia article; specifically information about the Indonesian flag, on the grounds that it is not 'relevant'. I feel it should have been discussed in Talk, not unilaterally deleted. I have reposted it with a request that he discuss. What do I do if he deletes again? Is it appropriate I report as vandalism? I'm a new user acting in good faith and am a bit shocked that established users delete accurate information without discussion. Is there any recourse, or is it a free-for-all where the most persistent reverter wins? That does not seem right. 212.71.37.98 11:37, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Actually, three different editors have each once removed your addition, and have justified the reasons for removing it on Talk:Indonesia. At this point you should familiarize yourself with the Misplaced Pages:Three-revert rule and Misplaced Pages:Resolving disputes. (Caniago 11:45, 17 August 2007 (UTC))

What I see is you trying to add a piece of content to the article, others disagreeing with its appropriateness in the article, and you calling their removal vandalism. You are both trying to improve the article, neither is vandalism, so perhaps things would go more smoothly without such accusations. Leebo /C 12:04, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

BetacommandBot and commons

Ive started a bot to move images to commons please see User:Betacommand/Commons β 13:42, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

If that bot moves any of the free images I uploaded, I will block it. I don't want them on Commons, where I can't keep an eye on them and have them on my watchlist. Are you going to bother to ask users first if they want their images moved, or do you know best? Neil ム 16:55, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

wtf? read the wording of the GFDL. Theresa Knott | The otter sank 17:07, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

He said he'd block, not sue for copyright infringement. There are a lot of things that are legal to do in the US that will still get you blocked on WP. --W.marsh 18:23, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

One do not make threats about blocking the bot. Two if they are free images they should be on commons. Three please see WP:OWN. Four if you want to civilly discuss this then please do but threats are not a good thing. β 17:04, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry if I hurt the bot's feelings. Why should they be on Commons? Please point me in the direction of the relevant policy that says this is the case. This is civil - please ask users before moving their images, as a courtesy, if nothing else. I would imagine many many users would not be happy, particularly if they hold the same opinion of Commons I do. Neil ム 17:10, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

What have you got against commons? Theresa Knott | The otter sank 17:12, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

(ec - note I was refactoring my response and got conflicted). I don't like Commons because it takes away local control, and allows people to merrily upload pictures of their meat and two veg and vandalise Misplaced Pages with them. I also don't like it because I wouldn't be able to watchlist my images. Neil ム 17:17, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Commons has a watchlist feature just like en Misplaced Pages. Videmus Omnia 17:19, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

But I don't want to have two jump between two accounts. Sigh. Neil ム 17:22, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Ok please see WP:OWN as soon as you uploaded those images under a free license they no longer belong to you. so if wikipedians think they should be on commons then that is where they will go. as for not being able to watch images, do you have e-mail? commons e-mails you when pages on your watchlist change β 17:21, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

No problem, I will delete them and reupload them under a suitable tag. Is there a tag I can apply to ensure they don't move to Commons? Neil ム 17:22, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

why not just use the commons e-mail tool? β 17:29, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Why should I have to? Neil ム 17:37, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I think maybe you're missing the point that they're not your images. Videmus Omnia 17:26, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Neil, only if they are fair use. Otherwise, free images can (and preferably will) go to Commons. And once they are uploaded, they not yours. Majorly (talk) 17:30, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

This isn't true. You own images you license under GFDL, you just have to let other people use them. But you still own them. Quite frankly, Neil is also well within his administrative priviledge to block Betacommandbot for disrupting Misplaced Pages to prove a point. Moving images to commons is disruptive. WilyD 19:23, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I think suggesting I would block the bot was one thing I should not have done. Neil ム 20:07, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

It makes perfect sense that they would be added to Commons, what doesn't make sense is that they would then be deleted from the English Misplaced Pages, an act which helps Commons not at all and only makes our life more difficult. Christopher Parham (talk) 20:21, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

The problem is with Commons rather than the bot which is unhelpful but legit

I share Neil's sentiment but I must add Neil has no means on doing anything to have it his way. By uploading the images to Misplaced Pages under Commons-compatible license he has no way of preventing them being uploaded to commons. That said, this brings us back to the most serious problem of commons, its being subject to flukes. Suppose the editor uploads a free image to WP. Then, someone moves it to commons. Soon enough the WP copy gets deleted. Then, after the new attack of Commons' wannabe copyright lawyers (wanna a couple of names? can give you ten!) the image gets deleted from commons because the commons' view on a particular copyright rule changes again. Misplaced Pages image is gone by now. Result: article looses an image.

How can it happen? Many scenarios. Only user-created images uploaded under GFDL or cc-by-sa are reasonably safe forever. PD? No. Rules change. One day commons may move to allowing only world-wide PD images. Are you sure there is no country where the life of copyright is 300 years since the death of the author? Or that there cannot be in 5 years? Copyright laws do change retroactively sometimes.

Next: suppose the PD image is sourced to a web-site. In three years the site goes down. Some freak from the "copyright patrol" (wanna name? I can give you ten!) tags it as "source invalid", in ten days image is gone. Image's author who would have a better chance noticing the event on-wiki has no idea with what is going on on commons. Result is the same. Article looses image.

The problem is not the bot. The problem is with Commons. Neil, I share your sentiment. Unfortunately, there is nothing you can do. You can beg Betacommand and his friends to not move your image but this would be asking for a favor and I doubt it would work. --Irpen 17:30, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Neil, while you may hold the copyright on the images, they have been licensed in such a way that we can copy them any way we want. What is more, Misplaced Pages has never made any sort of promise to you that it will host your images. If you want them to stay on Misplaced Pages, you best bet is to ask nicely, because you are not in a position to demand. Blocking the bot for such an action would be a highly inappropriate use of your admin tools. ((1 == 2) ? (('Stop') : ('Go')) 17:33, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Massive edit conflict ... what they all said, with a few additions, the most important one being about the ability to restore deleted images. If the Commons policy is in some way different from the EN policy, we admins can restore an EN deleted image, drop us a note. Or, well, I hate to even mention this, but if someone deletes an image for ... other inappropriate reasons ..., we can restore it as well. --AnonEMouse 17:35, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

He's already deleting them. I am disappointed that an Admin would be this unaware of the terms of the GFDL, and would take such action. Of course, any particularly good photos can be undeleted, since the GFDL license can't be revoked. Thatcher131 17:36, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Does GFDL require that attribution must remain? Neil ム 17:36, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes. Thatcher131 17:38, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Then please explain where my attribution has gone from and . Then tell me again why Commons respects GFDL. Neil ム 17:40, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Well that image wasnt copied from wikipedia, if you want I can show you a few examples of my move to commons. I copy the upload history, page history, and the page text. making the transwiki'ing of images 100% GDFL compliant and covering all the bases and ensuring all users get credit for their work. β 17:52, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

That sounds great, Bc. Please do point to an example. --AnonEMouse 20:15, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Good point. Neil, I suspect the problem was that you didn't explicitly give attribution in the image text, you just put GFDL-self, and assumed the self-part would be obvious. Betacommand, can you make sure the bot notes any GFDL attribution when moving an image to Commons? This includes giving the user name of the uploader when using GFDL-self. --AnonEMouse 17:48, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Apparently commons user c:User:Billy1125 uploaded them without properly attributing them. You could ask on commons for them to be deleted or you could provide the proper information. Although I have not examined BCBot's code (and wouldn't know what to look for if I did) I suspect that the Bot will properly attribute all images, since failing to do so would raise yet another shitstorm. Allowing your images to be moved by the bot (or moving them yourself) would be the best way to guarantee proper attribution. Thatcher131 17:49, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

see my comment above. β 17:52, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Massive edit conflict. Thatcher, You are right about the "yes" above but not fully right that GFDL cannot be revoked. Technically it can be revoked but it won't affect the derivative work where the image is already used or prevent taking a copy from the source where the originally GFDL image is copied. But one can prevent the image from being copied from the original place he uploaded it to by revoking GFDL. This is a technicality that affects little though. However, this has little to do with the problem of commons that make editors resent having their images move there. But, again, there is nothing one can do. True enough. --Irpen 17:43, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Neil (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) appears to be using his admin-bit to delete his GFDL images in protest under the "user request" CSD criteria. This seems disruptive, petty, and poor conduct to boot. It's terribly disappointing, and sets a poor precedent. - CHAIRBOY (☎) 17:48, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

He stopped at 13:31, August 17, 2007 Neil (Talk | contribs | block) deleted "Image:Lincolnblack.jpg". Thank goodness. --AnonEMouse 18:00, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I have restored the few of them that were used in articles and not yet "commonized". The rest are only used in Neil's gallery and in one talk archive. Миша13 18:08, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

He just deleted another: "11:13, 17 August 2007 Neil (Talk | contribs | block) deleted "Image:Dryskislope1.jpg" (GFDL revoked. See my talk page.)" Petty. - CHAIRBOY (☎) 18:14, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

You are entitled to your opinion, Chairboy, but name-calling is not helpful. I have used my revoked any GFDL licensing associated with those images, until I can find a satisfactory license. Please see the note on my talk page regarding this. Neil ム 18:17, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm not calling you a name, I'm ascribing the motivation of "pettiness" to your actions. - CHAIRBOY (☎) 18:23, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Maybe it is a good time to start doing something about the commons' problems as outlined above? We should at least try. --Irpen 17:55, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

C'mon, you know that AN/I has no dominion over commons. The question is whether Betacommand's bot obeys all requirements (attribution, etc.) - it does. Some users may be concerned over images deleted at commons, but it's easy enough to keep track of all transwikied files, the bot could even be modified to include a "Images transferred by such-and-such" cat in the process. ˉˉ╦╩ 18:34, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Improper speedy deletions of the images should be reverted. The images should only be deleted if they've gone through a deletion review process. Neil, just because you uploaded the images doesn't mean you can delete them whenever you want to. Corvus cornix 18:26, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Would those images not be eligible for a speedy G7 deletion? Or does that not apply to images (and if so, why not? WP:SPEEDY says that "General criteria...apply to all namespaces."). --ElKevbo 18:35, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

As Neil has resumed his image deletion spree, now claiming to have revoked the GFDL from his images, and seems to have no intention of stopping, I have blocked him for 24 hours. I regret that this is necessary, but he is using his admin tools to disrupt the project on a potentially massive scale. --Krimpet 18:28, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Blocking an admin doesn't prevent him or her from using admin tools. Mike R 18:33, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

This is a bit much for even a mop wielding mouse without a law degree. User talk:Mikegodwin#Time for the WP's official copyright lawyer to weigh in. --AnonEMouse 18:34, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Both Neils' deletions and blocking him are wrong solutions of a serious problem whose real solution is long overdue. --Irpen 18:34, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Blocking Neil is absurd and it's only going to make this conflict worse. If he isn't unblocked very soon, I'm going to review his unblock request. Sarah 18:41, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Krimpet unblocked Neil after off-line discussion in which Neil agreed to stop deleting and talk it out. Mike Godwin hasn't yet weighed in, but I suspect will probably be the definitive voice here. More news available at a very reasonable price ...  :-) --AnonEMouse 19:18, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict w/above)I apologize if my block was on the hasty side =/ -- I only resorted to a block as I was concerned that he intended to continue deleting images. After discussing it with him in private, he has promised to me that he will pursue his concerns in the proper forums, and I have unblocked him. --Krimpet 19:20, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, commons is a problem but this is even a bigger problem that plagues the Misplaced Pages. Please never ever "block on the hasty side"!. --Irpen 19:24, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

• One potential problem with commons that I haven't seen raised is the reason why commons was created: to a be a common repository of images that could be used across a range of projects. In other words, all the different language Wikipedias, and other projects as well, I believe, can use the same image that is on Commons. This is a feature, and often a desirable one. The "usage" tool on Commons exists to allow people to track how their images (where 'their' refers to them as the photographer) are being used. However, there will always be people who don't want to do things this way, and would prefer to limit their images to just one location. I wonder if there is a way to have a licence that does this: "free, but only use here"? Or is that against everything that the free content movement stands for? One of my free pictures was picked up and used in the French Misplaced Pages, which I was very pleased about, but I'm less certain what my reaction would be if I saw a picture I took being used in an article that was written in a language I didn't understand ((eg. Japanese). I would want to be sure they were not misusing the picture, but maybe this points at the real problem. A photographer releasing free pictures must, at some point, trust the re-users of the content to use the free pictures responsibly. Carcharoth 19:42, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Misplaced Pages is free! You need to understand what this means. Anyone can reuse your photo for any reason they like provided the follow the GFDL. There is nothing to stop somone bypassing commons and copying and pasting your image to another language wikipedia. There is nothing to stop soming copying and pasting your image to another internet site, even one you heartily disaprove of. If you licence under a free licence users are free to do whatever they want with the image as long as they follow the licence instructions. Theresa Knott | The otter sank 20:01, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Krimpet... I agree with Irpen, please think and discuss before you block. Now you seem to be apologizing to WP:ANI for a hasty block — what's that about? How about a word of regret to Neil, in his actual block log? You do realize it was previously squeaky clean, but will now forever more be displaying your claim that he used admin tools disruptively ? Followed only by your rather ungracious unblock message? Think about it. Please. Bishonen | talk 19:55, 17 August 2007 (UTC).

Bish, Krimpet has apologised and I have accepted. I don't think it's productive going after her at this juncture. Neil ム 20:06, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't see widespread condemnation of his actions. As entertaining as jumping up and down on him after he's unblocked might seem, he performed a block he felt was correct, and unblocked it when Neil agreed to stop his spree and help work out a solution to this mess. If you still have a problem w/ Krimpet, do something about it other than sniping at an 'easy target'. While you're at it, do you disagree with the assertion that Neil was disrupting the project to make a point? 1. This conversation is evidence enough that he caused disruption, and 2. He's doing this to make a point about Commons, which he has a self-described irrational dislike of. Before you try and start a pile-up, consider the context please. - CHAIRBOY (☎) 20:02, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I won't comment other than to point out deleting 4 images is not a spree in any sense of the word. Neil ム 20:04, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Let's not jump up and down on either Krimpet, or Neil, they've made peace. We can talk about the issues, try to reach agreement ourselves, wait for Mike Godwin to be the Voice From On High, or both, but recriminations can only make things worse, not better. Let's aim for better. --AnonEMouse 20:07, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm w/ AnonEMouse on this. - CHAIRBOY (☎) 20:18, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Blocking was a bad move. Images can be undeleted after discussion, there was no emergency here. Neil, as far as I can tell the problem with your images on commons is that a user uploaded images he did not own and used a false license. It's not as though this problem is unique to commons. There as here, no one knows about the problem until they are informed. I have a commons user ID and would be happy to fix the info if you wish. Or you could ask a commons admin to delete them and then transwiki them properly. In fact, the best way to preserve your attribution would be to let BCBot do your images. Thatcher131 20:09, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

• Could someone please explain, or point to an explanation, of the problems with Commons. I agree with some of the descriptions of these problems, and have stated some above. I'd like to also respond to two points above:
  • (a) Theresa Knott said: "Misplaced Pages is free!" Yes, I know that. But images are different from text. Text can be mercilessly edited. Images can be edited too, but there are restrictions on that. This might boil down to creative control. Many photographers contributing free content have no problem with their pictures being redistributed, but do have problems with their pictures being altered: (a) cropping; (b) cleaning; (c) colour levels; (d) other photoshopping stuff. Ditto for inappropriate use (eg. misleading captions), and failure to credit the photographer. Could someone explain to me which CC licence (the 'some rights reserved' stuff) is best for addressing these concerns, as opposed to the GFDL (was that license ever even intended to be used for photographs?).
  • (b) Christopher Parham said: "It makes perfect sense that they would be added to Commons, what doesn't make sense is that they would then be deleted from the English Misplaced Pages, an act which helps Commons not at all and only makes our life more difficult." - could he or someone explain this in more detail? Or point somewhere where this is clearly explained?
• Thanks. Carcharoth 20:33, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
  • • What gives you the idea that images are different than text? Images can be mercilessly edited according to both the GFDL and the CC by SA. The fact that we choose not to on the whole doesn't mean the licence stops us. If photographers have a problem with their images being photoshopped then they must not upload them to wikipedia. Theresa Knott | The otter sank 20:59, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

The problem is the loss of control in moveing an image to commons and deleteing it from en. Commons is a seperate project with different priorities and lower levels of anti-vandle skills.Geni 20:41, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

When an image is deleted from here, editors can no longer include it on their English Misplaced Pages watchlist and administrators can no longer protect it. Changes to the image obviously affect our product but aren't in our recent changes list, aren't in our administrative logs. If we find recent changes, watchlists, protection, etc. to be useful features, why are we systematically destroying them in regard to free images? Deleting the image also introduces confusion about what is the proper place to discuss the image with regard to its inclusion in this encyclopedia: at the commons talk page or at the talk page of the deleted image page here? Commons isn't helped in any way by deleting the image from Misplaced Pages, so the effort we put into deleting images that have been moved to Commons is pretty counterproductive. Christopher Parham (talk) 20:48, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

You cannot "revoke" GFDL. From the license itself "Such a notice grants a world-wide, royalty-free license, unlimited in duration, to use that work under the conditions stated herein". "unlimited in duration". Thats the whole point of GFDL, and it is why people on Misplaced Pages do not get to control their contributions. ((1 == 2) ? (('Stop') : ('Go')) 21:00, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

That would be true if GFDL were a contract; it is a licence, and can be revoked as long as the contributor remains the sole contributor. Neil ム 21:13, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Extreamly doubtful. Once you have released something under the GFDL people can continue to use it under the GFDL as long as they can get of hold of a copy.Geni 21:23, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

There no such concept as a "contributor" in GFDL. When you upload an image you own as GFDL, you're giving the Wikimedia Foundation a irrevocable license to use the image for any purpose. And very time someone's browser downloads this image, this person gets a irrevocable license to use the image for any purpose. That said, if you delete this image from Misplaced Pages, I can, for instance, re-upload it under a different name, as long as I credit you as the author and tag it as gfdl. --Abu badali 21:24, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Now you're all talking about the trees instead of the forest, but let me just point out something really obvious. I write, "Flannery O'Connor's stories always have a theological content, and she said that her sole theme was grace." Now, it gets edited. Fine. It turns into, "Flannery O'Connor ate boogers and liked a girl called grace." That's no longer my contribution. I.e. no one would credit the last statement to me. No one would say that it was my contribution. In fact, it's so obvious as to hardly need saying. However what is going on with the editing of a photograph is that the edits make it no longer the same photograph. I.e. it is no longer "My pet bird" but "Editor Bobo's picture of a bird." Because photographs are single objects rather than documents, because they "mean" all at once rather than in sequence, there is no way to change it "a little" and have it be "mostly the same." The moment you edit it, it's not the same thing at all. Therefore, any edit of a photograph is, in a sense, a brand new photograph that requires separate licensure. The original contributor basically allowed others to use the photograph, including using it as the basis of a new artwork created by editing, but the edited object is not the original. I would be miffed if someone said, "Geogre said Flannery O'Connor was a lesbian," and I'd be miffed if the photo of my pet bird suddenly had a pirate under its claws. It isn't that people can't edit -- the license allows that -- but then the result of any editing is no longer covered by the original donation/license. Geogre 21:45, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry but I believe you're more or less mistaken. I can only change your Flannery O'Connor's statements in my Flannery O'Connor statement because you licensed your Flannery O'Connor under GFDL. My newly created Flannery O'Connor is a derivative work from your original work, and we are co-authors. And per GFDL, I have the obligation to credit you and me, and the obligation to license my derived Flannery O'Connor's statement under GFDL (the viral copyleft thing). If I fail to credit you or to license the derivative work as GFDL, I'm violating your copyrights.

This is in no way different with images. When I draw a pirate on your bird's picture, I'm using my gfdl-granted right to create a derivative work. Again, we (you and me) are the authors of the derivative work. If I refuse to license this derivative work as GFDL, I'm also refusing my GFDL-granted right to use the image. --Abu badali 22:14, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

There are other laws which would see people get into a lot of trouble for inappropriately photoshopping GFDL pictures, such as those of a living person. That and basic ethics. This is why I, on principle, don't upload pictures of people under the GFDL. A more restrictive licence, yes, but not one that allows alteration of the original image. The equivalent here is changing a picture of Flannery O'Connor to "show" that Flannery O'Connor "is a lesbian". By the way, thanks to Geogre for using this example: Flannery O'Connor is a nice story, if a somewhat sad one. Anyway, the point is that images are different from text. Collaborative editing on a piece of text is very different to collaborative editing on an image. Try it some time. Carcharoth 22:54, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Which is why GFDL is not a very good license for pictures. See also the "moral rights" story in the Signpost this week, regarding the CC 3.0 license: Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2007-08-13/CC 3.0. Carcharoth 22:57, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Do you understand that Misplaced Pages's policies does not allow you to upload images of living people under any license that would prevent modification? --Abu badali 23:02, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes I do understand that. When I said "I, on principle, don't upload pictures of people under the GFDL.", that translates to "I, on principle, don't upload pictures of people". You seemed to have interpreted it the other way, as meaning "I upload them under a different license", which is not what I meant. Another way to put this is: I'm not going to take a picture of someone and then say to them "is it OK if I upload this picture to the internet under a license that allows anyone to do what they want with it?" I wouldn't give someone permission to upload a GFDL picture of myself, so I don't presume to ask other people that question. It's an ethical stance, based partly on personality rights: "the right of every individual to control the commercial use of his or her name, image, likeness, or some other identifying aspect of identity". Essentially, there are other ways to bar commercial use of content, over and above the GFDL. Essentially, the GFDL does not operate in a vacuum. You have to consider other laws. If modication of a GFDL image leads to fraud, defamation, libel or slander, then the copyright status of the image becomes irrelevant. Do you understand that? Carcharoth 23:26, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

• And from that Signpost story: "Moral rights, as defined by most legal systems, include the right to "the integrity of the work", barring the work from alteration, distortion or mutilation." - that is the sort of clause I would be happy with. If someone can confirm to me that this new CC 3.0 license is better in that respect than the GFDL, I will upload any future pictures I take to Commons and allow free distribution, but not "alteration, distortion or mutilation". Or am I misunderstanding all this (quite possibly!). Any advice would be appreciated (and sorry for posting this here - where would be a better place to continue the discussion?). Carcharoth 23:34, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
  • On reflection, I think my position is better stated as "you are welcome to take a copy of the picture and modify it, but please remove me from the list of authors, I only want to be associated with the picture I took, not the modifed form you produce". But then that runs into the situations of people only cleaning or slightly cropping an image - I'd still want to be credited as the major author of the photograph. It is more the, "I'm going to take a copy of your picture, run it through a shredder, invert the colours, throw a can of paint over it, doodle on it, and then call it art" cases, that would lead me to say "well, I'd prefer it if you don't associate me with that". Does that make any sense? Carcharoth 23:40, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I think Christopher Parham's point above was a good one: deleting images that have been copied to Commons causes more problems than it solves, particularly with images whose copyright has expired. Since the English Misplaced Pages requires only that these images be public domain in the United States, while Commons requires that they also be public domain in the source country, the transwikiing process is full of traps for the unwary. Many images tagged {{PD-US}}, and at least some that are tagged {{PD-Art}} and {{PD-art-life-70}}, do not meet Commons's licensing requirements and are likely to be deleted there when someone finally notices them, but many people who transwiki images are unaware of this.

If we stopped deleting images after they have been transwikied, then Commons could make its own decisions about them without their being lost from Misplaced Pages articles. —Celithemis 00:55, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

User:53180 and WP:RFA

53180 has been disrupting the Requests for Adminship page with successive requests once the first one was prematurely closed. The user is now on their fourth request in under a day and has previously been warned on their talk page to cease disrupting the page with repeated nominations. Administrative intervention may now be required. ɑʀкʏɑɴ 15:58, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Nevermind, looks like User:EVula took care of it while I was typing up this notice :) ɑʀкʏɑɴ 16:00, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Lexie Kaye entry

Chuck Sirloin keeps deleting my information on the Lexie Kaye page asking for speedy deletion and putting up warnings on my page. And what information he lists as web sites are no longer valid or correct!

Please protect my page from being edited by this person and keep my information as it was originally until this is resolved. I don't know who he is or what his problem is but it needs to stop."66.6.146.58 16:16, 17 August 2007 (UTC)"

Creepy edit pattern?

• 74.116.118.230 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Am I wrong to find this consistent pattern of editing -- --a fairly creepy WP:SPA? Per WP:AGF, I asked for an explanation on anon's talk page, with no response. Anon now edit-warring on Jewish right without explanation for reversions or talk-page discussion. Rest of edit history similar when it comes to adding material. I haven't seen another editor endorse these edits. THF 16:44, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

• I'm confused. The anon's user page says that IP address has been indef blocked for sockpuppetery. How is the user still editing?--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back 16:48, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

• User blocked back in June for a month. Not currently blocked. - Crockspot 17:00, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

• Yes, creepy, and all too common, I'm afraid. I brought this up in the NYScholar arbcom. There are editors who feel that "fighting neocons" justifies the practice of yellow-badging/pink-badging. It doesn't seem to matter if the editor is progressive or a white supremacist. The end justifies the means. - Crockspot 16:56, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
  • The IP should have been indef blocked, but had only been blocked for a month. As soon as it ewxpired, it went back to this strange editing pattern. Softblocked for a year. Neil ム 17:02, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
    • Good call. Stuff like this has no place in civilized discourse. Raymond Arritt 17:09, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

• I'd asked User:Jayjg about this one in early July. He was the checkuser. His response of "Actually, I don't remember much about that editor or case. Someone who keeps sockpuppeting should probably be blocked indefinitely." didn't give me enough confidence that the user was a sockpuppet to do the indefinite block myself on a page that can rotate from individual to individual at random times. If I recall the history; the one month block was already in effect when checkuser was done. GRBerry 19:43, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

  The editing pattern suggests a fairly static IP, but as it's a long block, I only softblocked (anon only). Neil ム 21:06, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Wolfowit is back and editing as Jewbaccas (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) -- another block is needed. THF 21:36, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Banned user:Frightner continuing to edit

Frightner (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) was banned on July 31st for making racist and personal attacks, trolling and refusing to remove his hatred page (saying "death to Bulgarians, Greeks and Albanians" in the Macedonian language), but continues to edit through various IP addresses (partial list):

• 124.168.101.42 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• 124.168.73.225 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• 203.217.2.246 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• 203.59.190.141 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• 203.217.2.246 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• 203.59.168.22 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)

Vandalous contributions and personal attacks:

All IP addresses exhibit tendency to make various attacks, vandalize talk pages and user pages. They are all located in Perth, Australia, the same place where User:Frightner declared is from. Can someone please look into this matter. It is an issue of a banned user clearly evading his block. A checkuser request for this user was declined. Mr. Neutron 16:50, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

As the comments note, his IP changes regularly, so blocking is difficult. I'll block all those listed that seem to have only been used by this editor, but presumably he will be able to find others. We can semi-protect your user page indefinitely, and your talk page for a while if you like, that will stop all IPs from editing it. Would you like that? --AnonEMouse 18:56, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

That seems fine. I'd probably have to extend the list if this continues. Thank you. Mr. Neutron 18:58, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

It seems to be a local internet service provider, so I picked a period short of forever (won't specify how long for obvious reasons). If the vandalism recurs when the blocks expire, please post here (where any admin will see it), or directly on my talk page, and the blocks will be repeated and lengthened. Good luck. --AnonEMouse 19:10, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I was 'busy' when Mr. Neutron asked me for help, but AnonEMouse has done the right thing; I would have done the same. Neil ム 21:10, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Major, ongoing WP:AGF violation by User:Threeafterthree (at the moment, against me at Karl Rove)

When User:Threeafterthree first blanked an entire section describing allegations of 'smear' push polling against Rove and the Bush campaign in 2000, his original edit summary was "removed material not support by cites", which I reverted as an unjustified deletion. We discussed the issue on the article's talk page and after presenting him with a detailed run through the exact same links that were already validating that section he selectively blanked the references to the book and film 'Bush's Brain' on the same basis.

He has never justified his deletions by impeaching the actual information within those cites, preferring instead to baselessly and rudely attack and accuse me of 'having an agenda' in his talk posts and edit summaries ("Yeah right, Ryan, you so full of it, you have no polictical agenda here. Thats what I love about Wiki, you can see people's history and it tells all", "poorly sourced material", "Enough with the agenda pushing, geesh", "rv attack site. Can ANYBODY else please step in. Why do I have the feeling this isn't the first time Ryan has engaged in this type of edit waring and use of attack sites and agenda pushing?)" and "crooks and liars?? Sounds like your kind of material)" ). All this while reposting links to my edit counts in an attempt to demonstrate an 'agenda' on my part (exactly what that specific agenda is he has yet to elucidate). Note that that last personal attack edit summary accompanied his deletion of a valid source for CNN video (the video blog Crooks and Liars) without valid justiification, falsely calling it a 'hate site' while getting in still more attacks on me.

Since his userpage has a userbox which reads:

This user's Agenda on Misplaced Pages is to STOP users who have an Agenda on Misplaced Pages

Such conduct, openly targeting editors he unilaterally deems to have an 'agenda' (as he did above with me) rather than focusing on content issues, is a profound violation of WP:AGF, and as such it's extremely uncivil and counter-productive. I've told him I won't edit war any more on this issue - but I will work within the rules and policy to ensure valid, cited information isn't being deleted without a valid reason. And as I stated on the talk page thread, the content in question is well-cited:

The Boston Globe cite verifies the fact that push polling took place against the McCain campaign, but doesn't attribute it to Rove or even the Bush campaign. The film 'Bush's Brain' contains McCain's former campaign manager stating he believed the Bush campaign to be responsible for the poll. And the CNN cite titled "Rove responds to 2000 South Carolina campaign allegation" quite obviously substantiates that the allegation was made against Rove, and that he denied it:

'White House Deputy Chief of Staff Karl Rove sharply dismissed an allegation Thursday that he was behind a 2000 rumor that Sen. John McCain was the father of an illegitimate African-American child."

Therefore, these cites verify the information in the article section that you blanked:

1. Push polling took place against the McCain campaign in South Carolina in 2000.

2. Allegations were made against Karl Rove and the Bush campaign.

3. Rove and the campaign both specifically responded to and denied the accusations.

And that's just what the article says. So, you are beating a dead horse. Exactly what do you object to as uncited?-- User:RyanFreisling @ 17:50, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I will not engage in a revert war with him - but of course I would very much appreciate the input of the community and any help in alleviating what I see as Threeafterthree's determined campaign of disruption by targeting users and avoiding resolution. And if there's something I can do toimprove my editing, etc., please let me know... there are always at least two sides to every conflict. Honest thanks. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 17:45, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Does this require administrator intervention? Have you considered filing a request for comment on the article content? Have you notified the user in question that you've filed a report about his activities here, and have you followed the other steps in dispute resolution? TenOfAllTrades(talk) 17:57, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Hi Ten. I have indeed considered filing an RFC on the article content issue and likely will.... but it's the user's 'Agenda to Stop Users with Agendas'-driven conduct, not the content issue, that is the worrying part of this equation. I've also notified the user of this post on the article talk page, and asked him to remain civil at nearly every turn, patiently reviewing the content issues until he returns to character attacks. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 18:00, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

:::This is a content dispute, and not just a content dispute, but one where the editor you're complaining about is correct: the material you're seeking to add violates WP:SYN and WP:EL. Both editors in the dispute could stand to review WP:CIVIL, WP:DR, and WP:NPA. THF 18:03, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I disagree. The content is plainly cited. The push polling inarguably took place , notable allegations of responsiblity for the push poll were made directly against Rove and the Bush campaign , John Weaver, 2000 McCain campaign manager, and both the campaign and Rove have denied it on multiple occasions , [http://www.cnn.com/POLITICS/blogs/politicalticker/2007/03/rove-responds-to-2000-south-carolina.html.

The article does not state, and nor would I support, the claim that Rove was responsible - but the incident is a matter of public record. Also, please help me understand - what is the specific WP:SYN / WP:EL violation? And more importantly, so I can honestly focus on improvements, which edit diff of mine is an WP:NPA? -- User:RyanFreisling @ 18:09, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I was referring to the repeated insertion of Crooksandliars video as a cite, which violates WP:SYN and WP:EL, as well as WP:MOS by an in-line URL instead of a footnote. I deleted the comment as inappropriate for AN/I, since it's a content dispute, but you reinserted it. THF 18:18, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Help me out on this one - if I understand correctly, it's a violation to post a link to video if it's hosted on a third party? (I'm not trying to be obtuse, I honestly don't understand this objection and would like to). Is it better to simply reference the event without a link (CNN, Rove speaks in March 2007, etc.), or find a CNN-sponsored host for the material? Thanks for any insight you can provide on this issue.

As far as a user maintaining an agenda to 'STOP other users who have an agenda', is this kind of open targeting of users (with the ongoing personal attacks he has leveled) considered an acceptable topic for AN/I? Because it's obviously serious enough to have derailed this content dispute (which otherwise ould have been rather straightforward) on numerous occasions. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 18:22, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Without commenting on the rest of this: Why must one provide a link to the CNN clip at all? Just reference it like you would reference anything else that doesn't exist on the web (TV show, movie, book, journal article, etc.). --ElKevbo 18:31, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, that's kind of what I was thinking. I'll make the edit (later, once things have cooled down and I've had a few more hours on the beach to relax) and hopefully we can resolve the issue amicably and informatively alike... -- User:RyanFreisling @ 18:32, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

The source violates WP:MOS by an inline URL instead of a footnote? You have to be kidding. Guidelines aren't capable of being "violated". If there's something about the formatting of a source that you don't like, what you do is fix it, not remove it. Meanwhile, I've protected the article till the issue has been worked out on talk (I know there's a lot of shouting on Talk, but that's not entirely what I have in mind.) My opinion about Ryan's questions: I don't find the userbox hugely objectionable. But the edit summaries and general incivility of Threeafterthree is quite unacceptable. I've warned him on his page. Bishonen | talk 18:39, 17 August 2007 (UTC).

TIME OUT!!!Everybody STOP! Ryan, it seems that we really aren't that far apart. Can the section read: A) There was a push poll, the source there works B) Folks said Rove did it C) Rove deny it ? DONE, FINISHED, OVER!! --Tom 20:27, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes, we can work out the content issues easily - if you will just agree to stop accusing me of pushing an agenda (I'm not), and agree to focus on content rather than making attacks. To that end, a real (not a non-apology) apology from you for your comments would go a long way towards reassuring me that your goal is article improvement rather than attacking and smearing editors falsely as 'agenda pushers' and the like... but if you're not able to offer an apology I'll survive. :) -- User:RyanFreisling @ 20:32, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

See Non-apology apology. If you guys think it's safe, I'll unprotect the article now. Reply here, please. Bishonen | talk 22:05, 17 August 2007 (UTC).

Hi Bishonen, sure, go for it. I will try to keep it to the talk page, and not revert immediately, but try to discuss and get other editors involved. This is a tiny blip in the article but Ryan battles to no end. Anyways, I am sure he will she this as another "attack", yadda, yadda, yadda. --Tom 22:22, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Your conduct, not mine, has been unacceptable. Even after all this, you persistently avoid resolution on the content issues by engaging in rude conduct towards me:

"Oh for goodness sake, get over yourself, geesh"

I won't take the bait and I won't return your incivility in kind. It's quite clear who is 'battling' to no end - your blanket deletions, rife with personal attacks and bereft of factual justification, are readily apparent. I ask you again for an apology (not another insulting non-apology apology) and for you to desist from your evade-and-attack behavior. Please stop.

As far as the article is concerned, the content dispute should be readily resolved, if only the attacks will stop. So far, given the renewed nonsense that Threeafterthree cannot seem to relinquish, that really doesn't look likely. -- User:RyanFreisling @ 22:27, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I will not edit the Rove article. I will not talk to Ryan. I apologize for the drama. Out, --Tom 23:03, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

public password for User:HBKH

I just blocked and changed password for HBKH (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) after some strange pagemoves. If the user wants to regain his account he will need to get confirmation from a checkuser as no email was set. Agathoclea 18:33, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

And now HBKH has added a blocked tag to his own page - . Corvus cornix 18:50, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Actually that was me. Agathoclea 20:28, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

User:Muntuwandi

User has no understanding of citation policy, as evidenced by edits to Religion here and here. As per discussion on the talk page, the user believes that ISBNs and page numbers are sufficient citations, and most likely did not revert my reversions due to 3RR. Given that this user is by no means a new user and has edits dating back to 2005, this inability following policy and procedure is unacceptable. As this user seems to have a history of editwarring, I believe that admin intervention is necessary to prevent another problem on another article with this user. MSJapan 19:17, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't understand. He's citing a book published by a reputable publisher and he's citing the ISBN and the page number. Yes, the citation should also include the name of the publisher and the author. So you should add that to the citation. But you've just removed the citation altogether. Please explain, with reference to policy, why you felt it necessary to remove information that appears to be correct and submitted in good faith, rather than simply fixing a problem with the way the citation was given? -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 19:34, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

If your objection is to the formatting of the citation then you should fix it or ask for it to be fixed on the article's talk page. If you have no objection to the actual content then removing it is simply a disruption to make a point. ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 22:02, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Actually, my complaint is the same as the below user's; his material citations have nothing to do with the books mentioned.

The PDF is a review of literature in a field that isn't religion, written by a psychology scholar, and the review for Wade's book on Amazon says "According to New York Times science reporter (emphasis mine) Wade, this DNA analysis shows that evolution isn't restricted to the distant past: Iceland has been settled for only 1,000 years, but the inhabitants have already developed distinctive genetic traits. Wade expands his survey to cover the development of language and the domestication of man's best friend. And while "race" is often a dirty word in science, one of the book's best chapters shows how racial differences can be marked genetically and why this is important, not least for the treatment of diseases." Therefore, what it says about religion is irrelevant, because Wade is neither a scholar nor a religious scholar, but a science reporter.MSJapan 00:27, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Muntuwandi is a troll and an afrocentrist that needs an indefinite block. He adds in POV and OR, and adds irrelevant sources. More often than not, the sources have nothing to do with the information being added, he does so just to try and have the information kept. See discussion at --देसीफ्राल 00:12, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Incivility, tit for tat SSPs, removal of warning templates, COIs, and the list goes on

Could an administrator please take a look at the situation between User:IPSOS and User:Kephera975 please, and review the two associated sockpuppetry reports here and here, before this argument gets any worse? It has already drawn in several other editors including User:Parsifal, User:GlassFET, myself, and an admin who closed an associated AfD here which is now being reviewed. Off the bat I see complete disregard to WP:POINT, WP:CIVIL, WP:OWN, WP:CANVAS (e.g. here among other places), and removal of warnings, such as here and here on the part of certain involved individuals as 'trolling'. Everyone needs to cool down. I wonder if administrators would consider an enforced cooling off period if necessary. Coldmachine 19:23, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Dispute over the "uses in fiction" section of page Thermal_lance

This concerns the page Thermal lance. It had a section about uses of thermal lances in fiction. User:Eyrian kept deleting it.

On 14 June I went to mediation about this to avoid a long edit war: see Misplaced Pages:Requests for mediation/Thermal lance and Misplaced Pages talk:Requests for mediation/Thermal lance. The matter seemed to stay unsettled for a long time.

On 15 or 16 August 2007 Eyrian deleted or blanked and protected all his user-area files, and thus at 05:42 on 17 August 2007 User:Daniel decided that Eyrian had left Misplaced Pages, and Daniel tagged the above dispute "{{Closed case|05:42, 17 August 2007 (UTC)|One party has retired from editing Misplaced Pages.}}". I thus felt it acceptable to treat the dispute as terminated and I restored the disputed matter in Thermal lance.

On 17 August 2007 Eyrian reactivated and restored his user area files and restarted the above dispute. See http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Thermal_lance&diff=151855327&oldid=151840036 for the two versions. I commented out the "closed case" tag in Misplaced Pages:Requests for mediation/Thermal lance and hereby wish to consider this matter as still open, as it was closed on the assumption that Eyrian was no longer active.

(See also User talk:Eyrian#Raygun, User talk:Eyrian#Arabella Figg, User talk:Eyrian#Articles for deletion .)

Anthony Appleyard 21:58, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Ssoap box section keeps getting re-added

User:Mitsos keeps re-adding a huge soap box section to the Hrisi Avgi article, promoting the agenda of that political party (which he openly supports). Also, in his last revert, he falsely accused me of vandalism. Could an administrator please step in and explain that large sections of direct quotes promoting a specific agenda, without any context or analysis, does not fall within Misplaced Pages guidelines? I have already provided him with the link to the Misplaced Pages soap box policy on the article's talk page, but he has ignored, or doesn't understand that policy.Spylab 22:06, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

FYI, this is the section in question: . ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 23:43, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

The Caucasus' Russian history being removed

User:Atabek, the same user who had removed the term Armenian genocide from about a dozen articles previously (see here for the previous report: ) has now removed any mention of Russia's part in Caucasus history on several articles: , , ,

As you can see, he removed any mention of the Russian governorates in the Caucasus. Thanks.Hajji Piruz 22:37, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

After looking a just a couple of Atabek's user contributions, its seems like recent activity is reverisions of your removal of information. Please use edit summaries all the time. --Rocksanddirt 23:01, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

SevenOfDiamonds blocked out of process

Please see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:SevenOfDiamonds#Unblock

Per Thatcher131 this was to go to RFAR. New admin blocked out of process, Proabivouc is harassing on the talk page, and has violated 3rr there as well. Please investigate. 85.31.186.224 23:31, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree. The whole sordid history is that MONGO went on an exended fishing expedition to find something on SevenOfDiamonds that would stick, accusing him in turn of being a sockpuppet of several different banned users. Finally he found an admin willing to block based on one of the accusations, despite discussion having been closed in favor of no action. *Dan T.* 23:34, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

He's been unblocked now (as noted in above section), so I guess this one should be closed and archived too? *Dan T.* 23:58, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

(EC!)The evidence in question can be seen here: User:MONGO/Ban_evasion. Take it for what you will. In any case SevenOfDiamonds has been unblocked pending an arbcom review, so this is in essence a closed issue as far as this forum is concerned. ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 00:00, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Though I'd be curious to learn who this anon is.Proabivouac 00:15, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

If you find out, and it is pertinent, take it to the arbcom review. Otherwise, AGF. Can we move on now? LessHeard vanU 00:25, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Apparently an individual who has been edit-warring using TOR. In good faith, presumably.Proabivouac 01:56, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Possible police investigation by Frank Zampino

Not sure if any of you are aware of this but I've spotted this article (although in French) mentioning that the individual is threating to demand a police investigation because of users using some IP's from the cabinet office of Gerald Tremblay the mayor of Montreal that had made defamatory edits on Zampino's article - the IP mentionned that he was a former nazi supporter and a member of the Weight Watchers. Another article here mentionned that the incident occured on August 15 2006 at 12:19 PM (so 16:19 UTC).JForget 01:07, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

You'd be hearing a lot of similar cases in the near future. That is because of the WikiScanner. I think the police and the foundation are the ones to deal w/ the case above. -- FayssalF - 01:29, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

I'd have to agree with FayssalF. Also even if this was a concern for Misplaced Pages Sysop and editors, I found no evidence of any edits on that day or any edits in either the day before or after. nat 01:36, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm gonna make a research in the history of the edits of that article to see where it was. It may be an error by the author of the 2nd article (Tristan Peloquin) or the contribs have been deleted from the history.--JForget 01:38, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

I've just spotted it 'BUT it is dated August 17, 2007 (made a couple of hours ago!) and not August 15, 2006. Not even at the French version. Anyway, IP blocked for 6 months. -- FayssalF - 01:39, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Actually, this is the that the article made referenced and it was on July 23, 2006 by User:67.71.78.44 with more here, here and here with targeting other members. The recent edit, in which another IP called him nazi, was made after the incident was reported based on this edit. Probably a semi-protection may be necessary if things degenerate especially if it makes the headlines in the Quebec TV media.--JForget 01:47, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

These two radio station in Montréal also published these articles on this issue: . but the wikipedia link that the second article provides doesn't exist. nat 01:50, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

because Zanimum intervened earlier today deleting to restore good edits only. -- FayssalF - 01:53, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Talk:Southern California InFocus#the state of this page csloat

I am having some issues with csloat.

I began a discussion on the talk page about whether or not the article met the notability criteria that are put forward on that policy page.

Rather than addressing the concerns I raised, csloat began to focus on my motivations.

He has continued with very personal remarks directed at me:

• accusation of hypocritical jihad
• rude characterization of edits as "contentious nonsense"
• accusation of "playing silly game"
• more bad faith "you are clearly not interested in improving it
• accusation of Islamophobia on my userpage

I feel bullied. He has accused me of being disruptive, ignoring policy undue, while I have actually edited to try to address his concerns and tried to explain 100% of my edits on the talk page or edit summaries.

Maybe this is normative for Misplaced Pages, maybe not. I want to edit Misplaced Pages, and feel I have a right to without being subject to personal remarks and insinuations. Could this user be told to stick to more disapssionate give and take discussion focusing on content of articles and not editors? Bigglove 01:34, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

I have had a similar experience with this editor as well, at Talk:Leonard Peltier where a simple content dispute over the relevance of a certain category to the article quickly turned into a personal attack and accusations by him that I was stalking him and a false accusation that I was not participating in the discussion on the Talk page. Teens! 02:14, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

The admin noticeboard is not a dispute resolution process. Please see Dispute Resolution and seek out a method of mediation there instead, as you seem to have already filed RfC's. Thanks. ~Kylu (u|t) 02:34, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Vendio IP block

Nonsense-inserting bots have been located editing from the 70.42.248.0/24 IP block. I've indefblocked that block per WP:OP, having found a number of open proxies from this hosting company. If anyone from this IP block wants an unblock, please feel free. Thanks. ~Kylu (u|t) 02:06, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

I've also been blocking a load of open proxies inserting this stuff, examples:

• 202.64.21.171 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• 220.173.139.172 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• 80.99.238.119 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)

-- zzuuzz 02:13, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks ~Kylu (u|t) 02:29, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Majin Xezeveir

Could an admin or admins take a look at Majin Xezeveir? It was created out of the blue with a semi-protected tag and sources tags all in one edit, it seems to have been deleted already once earlier in the day as "patent nonsense". I have no idea if this is a real anime character or not, but for the creator of the article to create it with a semi-protected tag and request for sources tag, is more than a little suspicious. Corvus cornix 02:30, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

After a few Google searches, it looks like this is fanfic. And User:Majin Xezeveir is indef-blocked. Corvus cornix 02:34, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Indefblocked the creator; obvious sock of a blocked user. This person is not here to build a credible encyclopedia or conduct himself according to community standards. Raymond Arritt 02:57, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Talk:Herbert Dingle

I know nothing about the edit history of this page, but this edit summary indicates that something needs to be done. Corvus cornix 03:21, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Please help stop vandalism to Clive Bull's article by User:John Locke22 for more than a month

Clive Bull is a British radio talk show host, and after a long history of people adding names of non-notable (and other unverifiable callers) to his page I found citations for the genuine ones and placed a hidden template/comment explaining that only verifiable names should be added in future. Since then User:John Locke22 has continuously removed this hidden comment, and used deliberately misleading edit summaries, such as here when he claimed a major edit was "Very minor". He has removed the template on 23 July 2007, 28 July 2007, 11 August 2007, 13 August 2007, 15 August 2007, and 17 August 2007. I have placed three warnings on his talk page for removal of content, but as this account is only being used to remove content I expected him to ignore the warnings. I haven't registered an account because I'm not on my PC much, but I'm a fan of Clive Bull so I want to try and keep unreliable details off his page (there's a occasional vandal who adds ridiculous gossip claiming Clive Bull had an affair with a listener he seduced on air, so this page seems to attract nonsense to it - see also Category:Suspected Misplaced Pages sockpuppets of ZoeCroydon). Can someone please do something to stop User:John Locke22 from removing the hidden message, it would also be really helpful if someone could add this page to their watchlist as I can't log on much. Thanks. 172.209.61.159 03:45, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

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