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People History and geography Society STEM

Introduction

The purpose of this discussion page is to select 50,000 topics for which Misplaced Pages should have high-quality articles.

Any article currently on this list may be challenged. The discussion is open to the following rules:

1. Before being closed, a Level 5 proposal must:
   1. Run for at least 15 days; AND
   2. Allow at least 7 days after the most recent vote; AND
   3. Have at least 4 participants.
2. For a proposal to be implemented on the Level 5 list:
   1. It must have over 60% support (see table); AND
   2. It must have at least 4 support votes !votes.
3. For proposed additions from August 2024 onwards, the nominator should list (and possibly link to) at least one potential section in the level 5 vital articles list for the article to be added to. Supporters can also help in this regard.

For reference, the following times apply for today:

• 15 days ago is: 10:45, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
• 7 days ago is: 10:45, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

If you're interested in regularly participating as a closer, the following browser tools may also be helpful:

• Streamlined closing with User:DaxServer/DiscussionCloser.js
• One click archiving with User:Elli/OneClickArchiver
  • Consider User:andrybak/Archiver if you prefer archiving several discussions in one go

The following link represent all current Level 5 Vital articles that are classified as people:

Film scholar additions

1. There is under-representation in art historians of scholars and historians focusing on film. I feel these could be essential names to list, to have more balance between different art forms in that section.

   It is worth noting that it may seem like film scholars are under-represented simply because film theory as an independent field is a relatively novel concept but there are many prominent film scholars we list whose primary contributions are in other domains e.g. François Truffaut  4 who was foremost a director and Gilles Deleuze  5 who was primarily a philosopher. Aurangzebra (talk) 06:11, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

   Yeah, that's correct. We also already list Sergei Eisenstein  4 and André Bazin  5 who are prominent, and the latter is represented in the art historians and critics section. I think with the space we have, we can list some more. Makkool (talk) 09:11, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

Add David Bordwell

His book Film Art "is still used as a seminal text in introductory film courses". 14 interwikis.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 16:26, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

1. Going to reserve judgment on this one but it's worth noting that we don't include seminal textbook authors in other more noteworthy fields. Aurangzebra (talk) 06:11, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

   His article also mentions that he has written "influential articles on theory, narrative, and style". He seems to be an important figure in academic film studies, at least in North America. Don't know if his scholarship is read in Europe for example. Makkool (talk) 09:11, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Add Vito Russo

Queer film theorist and author of The Celluloid Closet, "'an essential reference book' on homosexuality in the US film industry".

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 16:26, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
2. Iostn (talk) 21:22, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Add Manthia Diawara

African film scholar who "contributed significantly to the study of black film".

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 16:26, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Remove Abdellatief Abouheif  5, Olga Brusnikina  5, and Anastasia Davydova  5

All three are stubs. Abouheif's Arabic article is a little bit longer, but he only has five interwikis. In contrast, while Brusnikina and Davydova both have at least twenty interwikis, they are all pretty stubby as much as their English article, including the Russian versions. (Roland Matthes  5 is also a stub, but he is a lot closer comparatively to start status, and he's considered the greatest backstroke swimmer of all time; for that, I'm not nominating him.)

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 07:25, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. starship.paint 02:08, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
3. Makkool (talk) 23:18, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
4. Sports figures are generally not vital, and over represented in the project. GeogSage 20:49, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose, more on the basis of the proposal. Neither current article quality nor interwikis are one of our criteria, though both are good metrics to factor in. I could see both metrics being biased against figures popular outside the English-speaking world though. I've already discussed above how rejecting articles that are currently stubs / starts could be self-defeating. Sports figures are still within our +/- 2% cushion too so I don't think we need to cut. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
2. per zar2gar1. I'll do a little bit more research in a bit to determine how important these people are in their own right but, for now, going to oppose on the principle of the reasoning and to buy myself more time before this proposal closes. Aurangzebra (talk) 23:19, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

Discuss

Add Roger Mudd

A well-known American TV journalist. Dan Rather  5 from the same era of television is listed, and Mudd seems to be equally vital as him. Won multiple Emmy awards and the Peabody award.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 19:51, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Never a long-term primary anchor as I recall and as I understand it.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:44, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
2. Weak oppose, after some thought, let's hold off on TV anchors, at least for now. I think VA5 is just hitting the point where we have to start making hard decisions across topics. In light of that, I'm not sure how I feel about overdoing TV presenters, even in hard news. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 20:37, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

Neutral

Discuss

Add John Sentamu

A former Archbishop of York, the second highest leader in Church of England. Originally from Uganda, he was the first black Archbishop of York. An influential figure in the UK, and an out-spoken critic against African dictators.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 19:18, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
2. Sure, we're still a bit below quota for religious figures, and if we allow BLPs for other topics, why not here? -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
3. Interstellarity (talk) 21:41, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. It doesn't feel right to support a #2 in this regard.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 23:56, 1 December 2024 (UTC)
2. If Welby and/or Rowan Williams are added, he should not be. One contemporary Anglican is enough. _pbp 19:55, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Discuss

Note that this nomination has been reopened. At the time of closing nominator reduced his support to weak support as follows: I don't feel too strongly for adding, because he has only half the interwikis of Selby and Williams. Makkool (talk) 18:58, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Reopened by -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 19:46, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Add Ira Losco

Losco is probably the only Maltese musician that could make the list (though I believe Aidan who has been dominating the charts in Malta for the last 5 years could make it in the future). She has competed in Eurovision twice (the first time coming 2nd), won numerous awards and is frequently described as Malta's queen of pop. She would probably go in the Popular music: General section as she almost exclusively sings in English (one of the official languages of Malta). Sahaib (talk) 13:27, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. Make vote by nom explicit. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 04:13, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
2. Weak support, mainly because we should probably have one Maltese musician. I would probably prefer someone that sings in Maltese though, even if they're less commercially popular. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 20:37, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Politician/leader changes (set 2 of 2)

As it stands there are plenty of major omissions of major figures on the politicians and leaders section, in favour of more questionable entries and attempts to cover as many as independent states (including microstates) as possible, even at the expense of important leaders from elsewhere. Likely the section quota needs to be increased anyway, but even until then there's a lot of potential improvement to be made.

Swap Milton Cato  5 for Edward Seaga

Prime minister for under five years of a country with a population of ~100k (presumably even lower when he was leader) versus someone who was a leading figure in Jamaican politics for over 30 years, prime minister for nine, and as a record label owner, was influential in developing Jamaica's cultural power overseas. Arguably served as the foil to Michael Manley  5.

Support

1. As nom Iostn (talk) 20:59, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Mixed

1. Oppose removing Milton Cato because he was very important to Saint Vincent and the Grenadines and is seemingly part of the reason they are a separate country. Neutral on adding Seaga. QuicoleJR (talk) 13:38, 7 October 2024 (UTC)
2. Per QuicoleJR. Interstellarity (talk) 21:45, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
3. Keep Cato and add Seaga, per QuicoleJR. We'll probably need to prune Leaders soon, but we still have a large cushion for now. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 20:37, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
4. Per above, pushing this across the finish line. Kevinishere15 (talk) 10:08, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

Discuss

Swap Janet Jagan for Gabriel Boric

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Prime Minister of Guyana (pop ~800k) for ~9 months, and president for less than two, vs the current President of one of the most most developed countries in South America, coming to power on a platform of constitutional reform. Also note that Guyana, despite its low population, has five different politicians listed.

Support

1. Nom Iostn (talk) 20:59, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
2. Agree, if we're listing current world leaders, Boric should definitely be there if only because he arguably ended the post-Pinochet era in Chile. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 04:13, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
3. Makkool (talk) 13:10, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
4. Interstellarity (talk) 21:45, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

Swap Ati George Sokomanu  5 for B. J. Habibie

First (ceremonial) president of Vanuatu, with a population of 300,000 and very little international influence. I wasn't sure wherever to nominate him or Walter Lini  5 initially, but Lini seems more important and the presidency is described as "mostly ceremonial". Habibie served as president for only a short period of time, but in one of the world's most populous countries (Indonesia), and was reponsible for administring over the end of the 30 year long New Order (Indonesia)  5, giving him extra significance.

Support

1. Nom Iostn (talk) 20:59, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
2. Interstellarity (talk) 21:45, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
3. Makkool (talk) 17:15, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
4. Pushing this across the finish line. Kevinishere15 (talk) 10:08, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Swap Tosiwo Nakayama  5 for Tomiichi Murayama

First president of a country with a population of ~100k (and at the time even lower) versus one of Japan's only non-LDP prime minister's since the 1950s, and the first one to ever formally address Japan's imperialist past. While he had a short term of office, that is common for Japanese prime ministers and also I decided to include him over Morihiro Hosokawa for the time being as he seems ultimately more impactful and better remembered.

Support

1. Nom Iostn (talk) 20:59, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
2. Interstellarity (talk) 21:45, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
3. Makkool (talk) 17:15, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
4. Pushing this across the finish line. Kevinishere15 (talk) 10:08, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Swap Carlos Camacho for Guy Verhofstadt

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

First elected governor of Guam is reasonably important on a local level, but he was only in power for 5.5 years total and Guam isn't even an independent country, and only has a population of ~170k. There are much more populous US states we have no politicians from.

As for Guy Verhofstadt, we have no post-WW2 prime ministers from Belgium for some reason (only monarchs) despite it being an influential European country, and he is possibly one of the most internationally influential ones, and is now one of the biggest figures in the administration of the European Union.

Support

1. Nom Iostn (talk) 23:02, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
2. Support --Thi (talk) 12:56, 11 October 2024 (UTC)
3. Interstellarity (talk) 21:45, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
4. Makkool (talk) 17:15, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

Swap Ólafur Ragnar Grímsson for Davíð Oddsson

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Of the three Icelandic figures listed, all are presidents, which isn't the actual head of government, as opposed to the prime minister. Both of the others have pretty good claims to vitality despite Iceland's low population, with Sveinn Björnsson  5 being the first president, and Vigdís Finnbogadóttir  5 the first elected female president in the world. Ólafur doesn't really have much other than serving a long time. Davíð Oddsson, the longest serving PM, makes a lot more sense as someone who was largely responsible for Iceland's neoliberal reforms, which later contributed to the Icelandic financial crisis.

Support

1. Nom Iostn (talk) 23:02, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 19:08, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
3. Interstellarity (talk) 21:45, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
4. Makkool (talk) 17:15, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

Swap Lu Wei (politician) for Wang Huning

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Some guy who seems to be mostly well-known for being convicted of corruption vs the "Grey Eminence of the CCP"

Support

1. Nom Iostn (talk) 23:02, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
2. Really good find, Wang is (probably?) one of the leading theorists in the Chinese government and his America Against America also arguably makes him the 21st-century, Chinese equivalent to de Tocqueville. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 04:13, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
3. Makkool (talk) 13:10, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
4. Interstellarity (talk) 21:45, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

Swap Matsutarō Shōriki  5 for Kakuei Tanaka

I'm not sure why Shoriki is listed, his political importance seems to be in becoming the first chairman of the Japanese Atomic Energy Commission, but it seems his business activities are of more importance, but he isn't listed there, and they don't really seem important on an international level (outside of Japan) to list, even if he was relatively influential. Tanaka, OTOH, outside of being prime minister of Japan for 2.5 years, was for a longtime one of the most influyential figures of the Liberal Democratic Party (Japan)  5, Japan's dominant political party, nicknamed the "shadow shogun".

Support

1. Nom Iostn (talk) 20:20, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Mixed

1. Support adding Tanaka, move Shōriki to Businesspeople. I'm not that familiar with specific individuals in Japanese politics, but Tanaka seems pretty notable. Shōriki's business activities seem really notable though, especially the media empire that includes NTV. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 01:36, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
2. Per Zar2gar1. Interstellarity (talk) 21:45, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
3. Per above. Kevinishere15 (talk) 10:08, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

Discuss

Swap Chantharath  5 for Lê Duẩn

Chantharath was the king of a little-known Thai vassal state in South East Asia during the 19th century, and his article is a stub with no indication of lasting influence. Lê Duẩn was one of the most important political figures in post-colonial Vietnam, being the successor to Ho Chi Minh  4 and the first leader of a unified Vietnam after the end of the Vietnam War  4.

Support

1. Nom Iostn (talk) 20:20, 14 November 2024 (UTC)
2. Definitely. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 01:36, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
3. Interstellarity (talk) 21:45, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
4. Pushing this across the finish line. Kevinishere15 (talk) 10:08, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Swap Willem-Alexander of the Netherlands for Mark Rutte

It would make more sense as the Dutch government website states that "in the Netherlands the powers of the monarch are extremely limited". Sahaib (talk) 15:19, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. Making nom's vote explicit. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 20:37, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
2. Support, after some thought, I agree with Sahaib. Putting aside personal opinions of Mark Rutte, he is very tapped into contemporary European politics. For the monarch though, I honestly didn't even realize the Netherlands still had a king. I don't know if Britain is a good direct analogy either because the British advertise their monarchy very heavily and still grant it a lot of soft power. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 20:37, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose swap (but support add); Willem-Alexander is still notable as a figurehead and we have Elizabeth II  4 as VA4. In general though the politician/leader section, at least for contemporary figures, is overall very lacking and Mark Rutte, the longest-serving Dutch Prime Minister, should definitely be listed. Iostn (talk) 18:17, 16 October 2024 (UTC)
2. Per Iostn. Interstellarity (talk) 21:46, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

Add yoga teachers

Yoga teachers are currently a major omission. I suggest we could add these to Miscellaneous/Health and fitness, if they get enought support. Miscellaneous is under-quota, so we could add more than one of these.

Add K. Pattabhi Jois

Developer of ashtanga yoga. Along with Iyengar, one of the most instrumental people establishing modern yoga as exercise.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 19:01, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
2. Support, good point about Miscellaneous being under quota. I say, "brainstorming is welcome." -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
3. Interstellarity (talk) 21:47, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
4. Pushing this across the finish line. Kevinishere15 (talk) 10:08, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

Add Yogi Bhajan

Introduced kundalini yoga to the West. Also a influential spiritual teacher and entrepreneur.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 19:01, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
2. Support, good point about Miscellaneous being under quota. I say, "brainstorming is welcome." -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
3. Interstellarity (talk) 21:47, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
4. Pushing this across the finish line. Kevinishere15 (talk) 10:08, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

Add Bikram Choudhury

Controversial Indian-American yoga teacher, the inventor of hot yoga.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 19:01, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
2. Support, good point about Miscellaneous being under quota. I say, "brainstorming is welcome." -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
3. Interstellarity (talk) 21:47, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
4. Pushing this across the finish line. Kevinishere15 (talk) 10:08, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

Musician removals

Remove Bai Hong  5, Gong Qiuxia  5, Wu Yingyin  5, and Yao Lee  5

Located in Popular music > Non-English language popular music > Chinese languages (Mandarin, Cantonese and Taiwanese). All 1930s-40s Chinese popular music singers that were part of the Seven Great Singing Stars; all seven are currently VA which is pretty unnecessary and a few of the lesser remembered singers can be removed.

Support

1. As nom. B3251_(talk) 22:53, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 16:27, 18 October 2024 (UTC)
3. Interstellarity (talk) 21:48, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
4. Pushing this across the finish line. Kevinishere15 (talk) 10:09, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

Remove Teng Yu-hsien  5 from Music producers, songwriters and businesspeople

Prominent in Taiwanese folk music. This, however, is very niche and his influence seems to be minimal outside of Taiwan.

Support

1. As nom. B3251_(talk) 22:53, 17 October 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 16:27, 18 October 2024 (UTC)
3. Interstellarity (talk) 21:48, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

Add dieting figures

Some well-known people related to dieting and healthy eating are missing from the list. Add to section Miscellaneous/Health and fitness.

Add William Banting

First person to "popularise a weight loss diet based on limiting the intake of carbohydrates" like starch and sugar. His influence is evident that his name became a verb to mean losing weight, which still exists in Swedish.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 16:27, 18 October 2024 (UTC)
2. Weak support, but good point about Miscellaneous being under quota. I say, "brainstorming is welcome." -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Michio Kushi

Introduced the macrobiotic diet to the West.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 16:27, 18 October 2024 (UTC)
2. Support, good point about Miscellaneous being under quota. I say, "brainstorming is welcome." -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Walter Willett

Known for promoting the Mediterranean diet. The article cites The Boston Globe that he is "world's most influential nutritionist".

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 16:27, 18 October 2024 (UTC)
2. Support, good point about Miscellaneous being under quota. I say, "brainstorming is welcome." -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Ann Wigmore

First to introudce the idea of a raw food diet in the US.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 16:27, 18 October 2024 (UTC)
2. After some more thought, let's add her for now, both in line with the other suggestions and Miscellaneous people having the room. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 20:37, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Currently only in 4 other languages. Sahaib (talk) 23:13, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Add Tanni Grey-Thompson

After seeing her featured in the BBC's Icons documentary series, I think that she is a vital Paralympian, campaigner and even a Dame. Though she is not a finalist for her category, she is in the four chosen nominees.

Support

1. As nominator. CrisBalboa1 (talk) 01:32, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
2. Interstellarity (talk) 21:48, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
3. Support, after some thought, we could probably use another paralympian for now. It looks like we'll be taking a hard look at the Sports section in the near future, but paralympians are probably not going to be over-represented. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 20:37, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Add Navin Ramgoolam

He recently won the 2024 Mauritian general election and was previously prime minister of Mauritius from 1995–2000 and 2005–2014. His father Seewoosagur Ramgoolam is currently listed as a vital article. Sahaib (talk) 14:50, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. Listing nom's vote more explicitly. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 15:27, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nom. Makkool (talk) 12:39, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
3. Support after some more thought. Beyond the nom's arguments, Mauritius should probably be accorded a little more representation for geopolitical and ecological reasons. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 20:37, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
4. Pushing this across the finish line. Kevinishere15 (talk) 10:10, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Military & Revolutionary Proposals

Hi there, I don't normally participate in People proposals, but I saw the section for Military / Rebel biographies was still about 25 shy of the quota. I thought I could help brainstorm. Since we're below quota too, I'll go ahead and bundle them. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 23:00, 15 November 2024 (UTC)

Add 5 Ancient Chinese Generals

I know we already have decent coverage of Ancient Chinese generals, but here are 5 more from the Warring States period. In case there's only partial support, I've applied my own ordering, but feel free to prioritize them differently:

1. Wang Jian (Qin), led the Qin army under Qin Shi Huang to unify China
2. Lian Po, successfully defended Zhao for most of the decisive Battle of Changping; the Qin influence campaign to replace him is also a notable story
3. Bai Qi, ultimately won the Battle of Changping for Qin
4. Li Mu, helped Zhao hold out successfully after its losses at Changping
5. Zhao Kuo, lost the Battle of Changping for Zhao

Support

1. As nom. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 23:00, 15 November 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. GeogSage 05:16, 16 November 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. Makkool (talk) 18:41, 16 November 2024 (UTC)
4. Pushing this across the finish line. Kevinishere15 (talk) 10:12, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Add 3 early modern naval figures

2 of them are Ottoman, and although we already list Piri Reis and Hayreddin Barbarossa, I figure the Ottomans were around long enough to justify a couple more:

• Kemal Reis, admiral and actually uncle of Piri Reis
• Murat Reis the Elder, another admiral
• Pier Gerlofs Donia (a.k.a. Grutte Pier), Dutch (Frisian) rebel / pirate against the Habsburgs

Support

1. As nom. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 17:22, 16 November 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. Makkool (talk) 18:41, 16 November 2024 (UTC)
3. Support Pier Gerlofs Donia Iostn (talk) 22:15, 22 November 2024 (UTC)
4. support. GeogSage 20:50, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
5. Pushing this across the finish line. Kevinishere15 (talk) 10:12, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Add 3 relevant to the early Mughals

All 3 would be in the Early Modern period:

• Mustafa Rumi, Ottoman advisor to Babur who helped introduce musketeers to the Mughal army
• Ustad Ali Quli, another Ottoman advisor to Babur who helped modernize Mughal artillery
• Pir Roshan, Pashtun sufi leader that started a long resistance to Mughal influence

Support

1. As nom. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 17:22, 16 November 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. Makkool (talk) 18:41, 16 November 2024 (UTC)
3. Support Pir Roshan only Iostn (talk) 22:15, 22 November 2024 (UTC)
4. Support only Pir Roshan. Kevinishere15 (talk) 10:12, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose Ustad Ali Quli and Mustafa Rumi, stubs with low pageviews and interwikis (zero in the case of the former) Iostn (talk) 22:15, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

   That's fair, and that neither even has a Turkish interwiki is a negative in my mind. That said, since we're still under quota in this section, do you think you'd be willing to give these a chance for now just to see if anyone can expand them? There are citations, their historical influence is noteworthy, and they give us good non-Western and pre-1800s coverage. I normally don't discuss votes, but while I won't rehash my comments above, I don't like the idea of deciding just on current metrics; they can sift out a lot of chaff, but sometimes they just reflect a lack of interest to date (by readers or editors). -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Neutral

Add 2 pre-modern assassins

These both can help fill out some older time periods, and both actually have pop-culture connections too:

• Jing Ke, ancient, attempted to assassinate Qin Shi Huang at the close of the Chinese Warring States period; actually the basis of the movie Hero with Jet Li
• Rashid ad-Din Sinan, medieval, probably most famous leader of the Syrian Hashashin. Also a political or religious leader, but technically still under the leadership in Alamut, and should work as Military too. Along with Hassan-i Sabbah, arguably the most associated with the nickname "Old Man of the Mountain", and the basis for some of the Assassin's Creed video game.

Support

1. As nom. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 18:27, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. Makkool (talk) 14:00, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
3. Support, but these belong under Misplaced Pages:Vital_articles/Level/5/People/Miscellaneous#Assassination instead. Iostn (talk) 22:15, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

   Agree completely about Jing Ke if assassins are now under Miscellaneous. I honestly wasn't sure about ad-Din Sinan though because he's a capital "A" assassin. It seemed fitting to list them together, but while the Hashashin were notorious for assassinations, they did have a long-lasting state with population and an economy. So if not here, maybe he belongs more under either Religious or Political figures? -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

4. Pushing this across the finish line. Kevinishere15 (talk) 10:12, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Add 3 Irish republicans

All 20th century and political figures too, but they served as military Chiefs of Staff for the IRA at significant points or over long periods of time. I guess they could all go under Rebels or Military figures:

• Richard Mulcahy, fought in the Easter Rising, second-in-command under Michael Collins, and later Minister of Defence for the pro-Treaty government in the Irish Civil War.
• Moss Twomey, longest-serving Chief of Staff for the IRA in the 1920s and 30s after its first split from the Irish government.
• Cathal Goulding, long involvement with reviving the IRA after WWII, served as Chief of Staff for most of the 1960s, and a major influence in shifting political alignments of the IRA and associated parties.

Support

1. As nom. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 18:27, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. Makkool (talk) 14:00, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
3. Per nom. GeogSage 20:51, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Moss Twomey is not in any other languages, neutral on the other two. Sahaib (talk) 20:22, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
2. Oppose Moss Twomey and Cathal Goulding (also note the latter led the Official IRA, the less active IRA splinter during the Troubles) Iostn (talk) 22:15, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

   Just to add some context, you're right that Goulding's faction largely sat out the Troubles and therefore isn't as notable. It seems like Goulding was important to reviving the IRA before that split too though. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Neutral

Add 3 Korean commanders

Funny enough, while we list American and Chinese generals, we don't list any Chiefs of Staff for Korean forces on either side of the Korean war. It looks like the following 3 are all good candidates:

• Chung Il-kwon, appointed right after the start of the war, helped regroup the South Koreans and also would have helped coordinate the Battle of Inchon.
• Paik Sun-yup, another successful South Korean general and appointed Chief of Staff for the last part of the Korean War.
• Choe Yong-gon (official), overall commander of North Korean forces for the duration of the Korean War.

Support

1. As nom. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 18:27, 17 November 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. Makkool (talk) 14:00, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
3. Per nom. GeogSage 20:52, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
4. Pushing this across the finish line. Kevinishere15 (talk) 10:13, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Add 3 for the Bangladesh Liberation War

We list others as leaders, but we currently don't include:

• Sam Manekshaw, Chief of Staff for the Indian Army and responsible for the overall strategy behind Indian victory.
• Tikka Khan, actual Pakistani theater commander and governor in Bangladesh, significantly responsible for Operation Searchlight.
• K. M. Shafiullah, sector commander (including the capital city of Dhaka) during the war and appointed to Army Chief of Staff for the new military shortly after independence.

Support

1. As nom. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 14:03, 18 November 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. Makkool (talk) 14:00, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
3. Per nom. GeogSage 20:52, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose

Decline

Add 3 from the Iran-Iraq War

Last batch, but this should bring the section to about 900:

• Adnan Khayr Allah, Iraqi Minister of Defence throughout the Iran-Iraq War.
• Mohsen Rezaee, also a politician, but commanded the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps (Pasdaran) for most of the war; also arguably its first regular commander and organized it into a genuine military force.
• Ali Sayad Shirazi, commander of Iran's conventional ground army (Artesh) for most of the war.

Support

1. As nom. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 14:03, 18 November 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. Makkool (talk) 14:00, 20 November 2024 (UTC)
3. Per nom. GeogSage 20:52, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose

Decline

1. Adnan Khayr Allah, a ssomeone who is most well-knwon as a Minister of Defence (i.e. a cabinet member) would normally go under politicians, in fact Mohsen Rezaee might also belong there as someone who is seemingly more well-known as a political candidate Iostn (talk) 22:15, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

   I agree both are kind of borderline, but the way I see it, even if he's in a cabinet-style organization and didn't start out as a soldier, Khayrallah is primarily known for commanding a military. Razaee is arguably even more borderline, but I think he's still known more for his military accomplishments than bureaucratic ones, plus he started his career as a rebel. And in elections, I think he mostly appeals to conservatives or Realpolitik voters, again because of his military accomplishments. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)

Add Matt Drudge

Related to the Clinton-Lewinsky scandal, we don't yet list Matt Drudge, who founded the site Drudge Report, where the news of the scandal first broke out. I propose to swap Dowd with him. Drudge is a pioneer in web journalism, mentored Andrew Breitbart of breitbart.com and influenced conservative alternative news media on the Internet. Add to Web journalists under Writers and journalists.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 18:40, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Drudge Report is not vital, so the book is still out on this guy.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:35, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
2. After some more thought, even if this guy had a notable influence on American conservative media, I'm not sure how much space we should devote to that (recent and geographically limited). Writers and Journalists is already over quota too. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 04:46, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

Discussion

Add Henri Fayol

19th-century French management theorist best known for developing a systematic approach to administration. He's regarded as one of the two founders of Scientific management  5 along with Frederick Winslow Taylor  5.

Support

1. As nom. To Social scientists ---> Business theorists. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 22:50, 16 November 2024 (UTC)
2. Support, Social scientists is still under quota, and this is probably the sort of topic Lv 5 is perfect for (a bit niche but still notable). -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
3. Makkool (talk) 23:18, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Ralph Gonsalves

Per the article, he is currently the longest-serving democratically-elected state leader having been prime minister of Saint Vincent and the Grenadines since 2001. He has also twice served as chairman of the Caribbean Community. Sahaib (talk) 22:42, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. Added for nom Sahaib. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 23:18, 30 November 2024 (UTC)
3. Weak support, not sure leading these islands has the same geopolitical heft as some others we're discussing, but we still have a cushion in Leaders. We can revisit things more systematically when we need to prune the section. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 20:37, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Aulus Cornelius Cossus  5

Apparently notable for receiving the Spolia opima (a rare military honour from the early Roman period), but this was while Rome was still comparatively small, and there isn't much pointing to him being that well-remembered.

Support

1. Nom Iostn (talk) 16:45, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 23:18, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Weak oppose. I could see deciding he's not vital down the road, but with Military figures still hanging below quota (and no plans to adjust the quota yet), I would rather defer until we have a full section to compare against. I'm not a Classicist either, but he may actually be a big deal to Roman history buffs; I think a lot of the Early Republican history gets glossed over in pop culture today, especially compared to the Early Empire. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2024 (UTC)
2. Oppose. This is a person who is remembered thousands of years for reciving a military honour. This inclusion helps to reduce recency bias. GeogSage 20:54, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

Discuss

Add Bernardino de Sahagún

A Spanish Franciscan friar who is highly regarded as a pioneer of ethnography and anthropology. He was one of the first Europeans to scholarly document and write about pre-Columbian civilizations, most notably in the Florentine Codex.

Support

1. As nom. To anthropologists. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 00:50, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
2. Strong support, good find. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 04:13, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
3. Makkool (talk) 13:10, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add cinematographers

Currently we lack many prominent cinematographers. I propose the following for consideration. All wouldn't need to get in. About 10 vital cinematographers is probably enough. (Sven Nykvist from Sweden and Gregg Toland and Vilmos Zsigmond from the US are already listed).

Add Roger Deakins

From the UK. 16 Academy Award nominations and 2 wins, known for being technically innovative.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 19:44, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
2. Yeah, after looking over the list, we definitely need more people behind the camera. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 14:40, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Emmanuel Lubezki

From Mexico. Known for a ground-breaking style. 8 Academy Award nominations and only one to win in three consecutive years.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 19:44, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
2. Yeah, after looking over the list, we definitely need more people behind the camera. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 14:40, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Kazuo Miyagawa

From Japan. Highly influential pioneering cinematographer, worked in Rashomon with Kurosawa.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 19:44, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
2. Yeah, after looking over the list, we definitely need more people behind the camera. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 14:40, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Raoul Coutard

From France. Crucial to the French New Wave movement with his hand-held documentary style.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 19:44, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
2. Yeah, after looking over the list, we definitely need more people behind the camera. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 14:40, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Gabriel Figueroa

From Mexico. Hasn't worked in extensively Hollywood unlike Lubezki, but considered one of the most important to Mexican cinema.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 19:44, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
2. Yeah, after looking over the list, we definitely need more people behind the camera. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 14:40, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Subrata Mitra

From India. Considered one of the greatest cinematographers of India, and a pioneer. Worked on Pather Panchali.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 19:44, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
2. Yeah, after looking over the list, we definitely need more people behind the camera. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 14:40, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Christopher Doyle

From Australia, but worked in Hong Kong cinema extensively. Behind the distinctive visual style of Wong Kar-Wai's films.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 19:44, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
2. Yeah, after looking over the list, we definitely need more people behind the camera. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 14:40, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Manco Cápac

The legendary founder and first governor of the Incas. His existence has not been corroborated, but it's comparable to some politicians such as Romulus  5 and Lycurgus  4. He is a major character in Incan mythology as well.

Support

1. As nominator. To politicians. I am also open to adding him to Mythological figures. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 03:22, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
2. Strong support, also agree with placing in Leaders if that's the precedent for Greece & Rome. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 04:13, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
3. Makkool (talk) 13:10, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
4. Let's push this over the finish line.--LaukkuTheGreit (Talk•Contribs) 12:43, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
5. I remember reading about this in a Horrible Histories book. Sahaib (talk) 12:49, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Review of the Literature - East Europe - Modern; using interwiki number criteria and national quotas

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Basic overview

East Europe:

• 22 countries
• 63 persons in actual list (33 prose, 23 poetry, 5 drama, 2 journalism)

Determination of indicative national quotas

List of countries by gross domestic product in purchasing power parity (2024):

• 1/ Poland (1,890,000) = 27,5 % of GDP (PPP) of East Europe = 17 persons in list of 63 (now 18)
• 2/ Romania (894,220) = 13 % = 8 persons (now 4)
• 3/ Ukraine (655,580) = 9,5 % = 6 persons (now 2)
• 4/ Czechia (619,880) = 9 % = 6 persons (now 7)
• 5/ Hungary (448,460) = 6,5 % = 4 persons (now 11)
• 6/ Greece (436,757) = 6,4 % = 4 persons (now 5)
• 7/ Belarus (293,140) = 4,3 % = 3 persons (now 3)
• 8/ Bulgaria (248,910) = 3,6 % = 2 persons (now 4)
• 9/ Slovakia (247,540) = 3,6 % = 2 persons (now 0)
• 10/ Serbia (191,560) = 2,8 % = 2 persons (now 1)
• 11/ Croatia (187,190) = 2,7 % = 2 persons (now 0)
• 12/ Lithuania (154,620) = 2,3 % = 1 person (now 0)
• 13/ Slovenia (117,990) = 1,7 % = 1 person (now 7)
• 14/ Latvia (81,800) = 1,2 % = 1 person (now 0)
• 15/ Bosnia and Herzegovina (74,280) = 1 % = 1 person (now 0)
• 16/ Estonia (65,540) = 1 % = 1 person (now 0)
• 17/ Albania (58,200) = 0,8 % = 1 person (now 1)
• 18/ Cyprus (55,140) = 0,8 % = 1 person (now 0)
• 19/ North Macedonia (49,300) = 0,7 % = under 1 (now 0)
• 20/ Moldova (45,410) = 0,7 % = under 1 (now 0)
• 21/ Kosovo (29,719) = 0,4 % = under 1 (now 0)
• 22/ Montenegro (20,180) = 0,3 % = under 1 (now 0)

(Total GDP (PPP): 6 865 416)

For balance: List of countries by Human Development Index (more cultural criterion) (2022)

• 1/ Slovenia (0.926) = bonus +2 persons
• 2/ Cyprus (0.907) = +2
• 3/ Estonia (0.899) = +2
• 4/ Czechia (0.895) = +2
• 5/ Greece (0.893) = +2

-

• 6/ Poland (0.881) = +0
• 7) Latvia (0.879) = +0
• 8) Lithuania (0.879) = +0
• 9) Croatia (0.878) = +0
• 10) Slovakia (0.855) = +0

-

• 11) Hungary (0.851) = -1
• 12) Montenegro (0.844) = -1
• 13) Romania (0.827) = -1
• 14) Serbia (0.805) = -1
• 15) Belarus (0.801) = -1

-

• 16) Bulgaria (0.799) = -2
• 17) Albania (0.789) = -2
• 18) Bosnia (0.779) = -2
• 19) North Macedonia (0.765) = -2
• 20) Moldova (0.763) = -2
• 21) Ukraine (0.734) = -2
• 22) Kosovo - (not in HDI index 2022)

Persons by country - synthesis GDP+HDI

• 1/ Poland 17+0 = 17 persons (now 18)
• 2/ Romania 8-1 = 7 persons (now 4)
• 3/ Ukraine 6-2 = 4 persons (now 2)
• 4/ Czechia 6+2 = 8 persons (now 7)
• 5/ Hungary 4-1 = 3 persons (now 11)
• 6/ Greece 4+2 = 6 persons (now 5)
• 7/ Belarus 3-1 = 2 persons (now 3)
• 8/ Bulgaria 2-2 = 0 persons (now 4)
• 9/ Slovakia 2+0 = 2 persons (now 0)
• 10/ Serbia 2-1 = 1 person (now 1)
• 11/ Croatia 2+0 = 2 persons (now 0)
• 12/ Lithuania 1+0 = 1 person (now 0)
• 13/ Slovenia 1+2 = 3 persons (now 7)
• 14/ Latvia 1+0 = 1 person (now 0)
• 15/ Bosnia and Herzegovina 1-2 = 0 person (now 0)
• 16/ Estonia 1+2 = 3 persons (now 0)
• 17/ Albania 1-2 = 0 person (now 1)
• 18/ Cyprus 1+2 = 3 persons (now 0)
• 19/ North Macedonia 0 (now 0)
• 20/ Moldova 0 (now 0)
• 21/ Kosovo 0 (now 0)
• 22/ Montenegro 0 (now 0)

Total 63

Now unification by language aspekt (Moldova+Romania = romanian language, Kosovo+Albania = albanian language, Cyprus+Greece = greek language; question of montengrian and macedonian language is politically sensitive issue, so not merge)

Final ranking:

• Poland - 17 (now 18)
• Greece - 9 (now 5)
• Czechia - 8 (now 7)
• Romania - 7 (now 4)
• Ukraine - 4 (now 2)
• Hungary - 3 (now 11)
• Slovenia - 3 (now 7)
• Estonia - 3 (now 0)
• Belarus - 2 (now 3)
• Slovakia - 2 (now 0)
• Croatia - 2 (now 0)
• Serbia - 1 (now 1)
• Lithuania - 1 (now 0)
• Latvia - 1 (now 0)
• Albania - 0 (now 1)
• Bulgaria - 0 (now 4)
• Bosnia, Macedonia, Montenegro 0-0 (They will soon pass the interwiki analysis)

This order does not mean that the quota must be followed exactly, only that we will want to get closer to it if the "interwiki analysis" allows.

Balance with interwiki criterion (by country)

Poland 17 (now 18)

Now in list (by interwiki):

• 1/ Wisława Szymborska - 100 (poe)
• 2/ Henryk Sienkiewicz - 98
• 3/ Czesław Miłosz - 98 (poe)
• 4/ Adam Mickiewicz - 90 (poe)
• 5/ Joseph Conrad - 87
• 6/ Władysław Reymont - 85
• 7/ Olga Tokarczuk - 80
• 8/ Stanisław Lem - 77
• 9/ Andrzej Sapkowski - 52
• 10/ Ryszard Kapuściński - 46 (jour)
• 11/ Bruno Schulz - 45
• 12/ Bolesław Prus - 44
• 13/ Juliusz Słowacki - 44 (poe)
• 14/ Sławomir Mrożek - 39
• 15/ Jerzy Andrzejewski - 27
• 16/ Józef Ignacy Kraszewski - 27
• 17/ Cyprian Norwid - 27 (poe)
• 18/ Stanisława Przybyszewska - 9 (dram)

Not in list:

• Janusz Korczak - 54
• Witold Gombrowicz - 49
• Maria Konopnicka - 39
• Stanisław Ignacy Witkiewicz - 37 (dram)
• Maria Dąbrowska - 36
• Julian Tuwim - 36 (poe)
• Stefan Żeromski - 35 (dram)
• Tadeusz Różewicz - 35 (dram)
• Zygmunt Krasiński - 35 (poe)
• Zbigniew Herbert - 34
• Eliza Orzeszkowa - 33
• Adam Zagajewski - 33 (poe)
• Leszek Engelking - 33 (poe)
• Jan Potocki - 29
• Ignacy Krasicki - 28 (poe)
• Stanisław Jerzy Lec - 28
• Tadeusz Konwicki - 28

Suggestions

• Stanisława Przybyszewska - 9 (dram) - discarded without compensation
• Cyprian Norwid - 27 (poe) - replaced with Janusz Korczak - 54
• Józef Ignacy Kraszewski - 27 - replaced with Witold Gombrowicz - 49
• Jerzy Andrzejewski - 27 - replaced with Maria Konopnicka - 39
• candidate for possible quota increase in third scrutinium: Stanisław Ignacy Witkiewicz - 37

Greece - 9 (now 5)

Now in list (by interwiki):

• 1/ Giorgos Seferis - 82 (poe)
• 2/ Odysseas Elytis - 75
• 3/ Nikos Kazantzakis - 58
• 4/ Constantine P. Cavafy - 53 (poe)
• 5/ Alki Zei - 20

Not in list:

• Yiannis Ritsos - 41 (poe)
• Rigas Feraios - 36 (poe)
• Dionysios Solomos - 29 (poe)
• Kostis Palamas - 28 (poe)
• Angelos Sikelianos - 23 (poe)
• Alexandros Papadiamantis - 23
• Dimitris Lyacos - 23

Suggestions

• Yiannis Ritsos - 41 (poe) - added as new
• Rigas Feraios - 36 (poe) - added as new
• Dionysios Solomos - 29 (poe) - added as new
• Kostis Palamas - 28 (poe) - added as new
• Alki Zei - 20 - replaced with Alexandros Papadiamantis - 23

Czechia - 8 (now 7)

Now in list (by interwiki):

• 1/ Milan Kundera - 82
• 2/ Jaroslav Seifert - 82
• 3/ Karel Čapek - 77 (dram)
• 4/ Jaroslav Hašek - 68
• 5/ Bohumil Hrabal - 47
• 6/ Jan Neruda - 47 (poe)
• 7/ Božena Němcová - 45

Not in list:

• Vítězslav Nezval - 32 (poe)
• Pavel Kohout - 32 (dra)
• Alois Jirásek - 30
• Karel Hynek Mácha - 29 (poe)
• Josef Škvorecký - 28
• Karel Jaromír Erben - 28 (poe)

Suggestions:

• Vítězslav Nezval - 32 (poe) - added as new

Romania - 7 (now 4)

Now in list (by interwiki):

• 1/ Elie Wiesel - 79
• 2/ Eugène Ionesco - 76 (dram)
• 3/ Tristan Tzara - 66 (poe)
• 4/ Mateiu Caragiale - 12 (poe)

Not in list:

• Mihai Eminescu - 67 (poe) (also represents Moldova)
• Paul Celan - 49
• Dimitrie Cantemir - 42 (also represents Moldova)
• Ion Luca Caragiale - 37 (dram)
• Ana Blandiana - 33 (poe)
• Panait Istrati - 32
• Ion Creangă - 30 (also represents Moldova)
• Vasile Alecsandri - 30
• Tudor Arghezi - 28

Suggestions:

• Mateiu Caragiale - 12 (poe) - replaced with Mihai Eminescu - 67 (poe)
• Paul Celan - 49 - added as new
• Dimitrie Cantemir - 42 - added as new
• Ion Luca Caragiale - 37 (dram) - added as new

Ukraine - 4 (now 2)

Now in list (by interwiki):

• 1/ Taras Shevchenko - 102 (poe)
• 2/ Sholem Aleichem - 46

Not in list:

• Lesya Ukrainka - 75 (poe)
• Ivan Franko - 66 (poe)
• Lina Kostenko - 43 (poe)
• Ivan Kotliarevsky - 38 (poe)
• Oksana Zabuzhko - 37
• Andrey Kurkov - 35
• Serhiy Zhadan - 35 (poe)
• Marko Vovchok - 29
• Pavlo Tychyna - 29 (poe)
• Vasyl Stus - 28 (poe)
• Mykhailo Kotsiubynsky - 28
• Yurii Andrukhovych - 28

Suggestions:

• Lesya Ukrainka - 75 (poe) - added as new
• Ivan Franko - 66 (poe) - added as new
• candidate for possible quota increase: Lina Kostenko - 43 (poe)

Hungary - 3 (now 11)

Now in list (by interwiki):

• 1/ Imre Kertész - 89
• 2/ Sándor Petőfi - 64 (poe)
• 3/ Endre Ady - 43 (poe)
• 4/ Attila József - 39 (poe)
• 5/ Ferenc Molnár - 36 (dram)
• 6/ László Krasznahorkai - 35
• 7/ Magda Szabó - 32
• 8/ Mór Jókai - 32
• 9/ Géza Gárdonyi - 29
• 10/ József Katona - 22 (poe)
• 11/ István Fekete - 19

Not in list:

• Sándor Márai - 43
• János Arany - 36 (poe)
• Péter Esterházy - 36
• Mihály Babits - 33
• Dezső Kosztolányi - 33 (poe)

Suggestions:

• Ferenc Molnár - 36 (dram) - discarded without compensation
• László Krasznahorkai - 35 - discarded without compensation
• Magda Szabó - 32 - discarded without compensation
• Mór Jókai - 32 - discarded without compensation
• Géza Gárdonyi - 29 - discarded without compensation
• József Katona - 22 (poe) - discarded without compensation
• István Fekete - 19 - discarded without compensation
• candidate for possible quota increase: Sándor Márai - 43
• candidate for possible quota increase: Attila József - 39 (poe)

Slovenia 3 (now 7)

Now in list (by interwiki):

• 1/ France Prešeren - 64 (poe)
• 2/ Ivan Cankar - 41
• 3/ Edvard Kocbek - 25 (poe)
• 4/ Srečko Kosovel - 22 (poe)
• 5/ Oton Župančič - 20 (poe)
• 6/ Dragotin Kette - 12 (poe)
• 7/ Josip Murn - 12 (poe)

Not in list:

• Vladimir Bartol - 34
• Boris Pahor - 33
• Drago Jančar - 29
• Alma Karlin - 27
• Tomaž Šalamun - 25

Suggestions:

• Edvard Kocbek - 25 (poe) - replaced with Vladimir Bartol - 34
• Srečko Kosovel - 22 (poe) - discarded without compensation
• Oton Župančič - 20 (poe) - discarded without compensation
• Dragotin Kette - 12 (poe) - discarded without compensation
• Josip Murn - 12 (poe) - discarded without compensation
• candidate for possible quota increase: Boris Pahor - 33

Estonia 3 (now 0)

Now in list (by interwiki):

-

Not in list:

• Marie Under - 43 (poe)
• Lydia Koidula - 41 (poe)
• Friedrich Reinhold Kreutzwald - 41 (poe)
• Anton Hansen Tammsaare - 36
• Betti Alver - 35 (poe)
• Jaan Kross - 33
• Jaan Kaplinski - 30 (poe)

Suggestions:

• Marie Under - 43 (poe) - added as new
• Lydia Koidula - 41 (poe) - added as new
• Friedrich Reinhold Kreutzwald - 41 (poe) - added as new
• candidate for possible quota increase: Anton Hansen Tammsaare - 36

Belarus 2 (now 3)

Now in list (by interwiki):

• 1/ Svetlana Alexievich - 96 (jour)
• 2/ Vasil Bykaŭ - 37
• 3/ Mendele Mocher Sforim - 26

Not in list:

• Yanka Kupala - 82
• Yakub Kolas - 69
• Maksim Bahdanovič - 28
• Uladzimir Karatkievich - 27
• Natallia Arsiennieva - 26

Suggestions:

• Vasil Bykaŭ - 37 - replaced with Yanka Kupala - 82
• Mendele Mocher Sforim - 26 - discarded without compensation
• candidate for possible quota increase: Yakub Kolas - 69

Slovakia 2 (now 0)

Now in list (by interwiki):

-

Not in list:

• Ľudovít Štúr (jour) - 42
• Ján Kollár - 40
• Pavel Jozef Šafárik - 34
• Pavol Országh Hviezdoslav - 20
• Jozef Miloslav Hurban - 20

Suggestions:

• Ľudovít Štúr - 42 - added as new
• Ján Kollár - 40 - added as new
• candidate for possible quota increase: Pavel Jozef Šafárik - 34

Croatia 2 (now 0)

Now in list (by interwiki):

-

Not in list:

• Dubravka Ugrešić - 40
• Ivana Brlić-Mažuranić - 38
• Miroslav Krleža - 36
• Slavenka Drakulić - 31
• Tin Ujević - 27

Suggestions:

• Dubravka Ugrešić - 40 - added as new
• Ivana Brlić-Mažuranić - 38 - added as new
• candidate for possible quota increase: Miroslav Krleža - 36

Serbia 1 (now 1)

Now in list (by interwiki):

• Ivo Andrić - 88 (also represents Bosnia)

Not in list:

• Radoje Domanović - 63
• Milorad Pavić - 43
• Branislav Nušić - 41 (dram)
• Danilo Kiš - 40
• Isidora Sekulić - 30
• Meša Selimović - 30 (also represents Bosnia)

Suggestions:

• candidate for possible quota increase: Radoje Domanović - 63
• candidate for possible quota increase: Milorad Pavić - 43

Lithuania 1 (now 0)

Now in list (by interwiki):

-

Not in list:

• Jonas Basanavičius (jour) - 35
• Kristijonas Donelaitis - 30
• Justinas Marcinkevičius - 29
• Vincas Kudirka - 28
• Jurga Ivanauskaitė - 27

Suggestions:

• Jonas Basanavičius - 35 (jour) - added as new

Latvia 1 (now 0)

Now in list (by interwiki):

-

Not in list:

• Rainis - 31 (poe)
• Aspazija - 29 (poe)

Suggestions:

• Rainis - 31 (poe) - added as new

Albania 0 (now 1)

Now in list:

• Ismail Kadare - 69

Not in list:

• Naim Frashëri - 41
• Sami Frashëri - 31

Suggestions:

• Ismail Kadare - 69 - second scrutinium
• candidate for possible quota increase: Naim Frashëri - 41

Bulgaria 0 (now 4)

Now in list (by interwiki):

• Ivan Vazov - 52
• Anton Donchev - 17
• Dimitar Dimov - 14
• Dimitar Talev - 12

Not in list:

• Hristo Botev - 39 (poe)
• Georgi Markov - 33
• Stanislav Stratiev - 27
• Petko Slaveykov - 26

Suggestions:

• Ivan Vazov - second scrutinium
• candidate for possible quota increase: Hristo Botev - 39 (poe)

Bosnia 0-0

Now in list:

- (represent by Ivo Andrić, in Serbia list)

Not in list:

• Meša Selimović - 30
• Petar Kočić - 28
• Jovan Dučić - 25

Suggestions:

• candidate for possible quota increase: Meša Selimović - 30

North Macedonia 0-0

Now in list:

-

Not in list:

• Lidija Dimkovska - 25
• Blaže Koneski - 20

Suggestions:

-

Montenegro 0-0

Now in list:

-

Not in list:

• Miodrag Bulatović - 23
• Mihailo Lalić - 20

Suggestions:

-

Second scrutinium

Adding to the list those authors who come from a country with zero claim but have a high individual ranking - at the expense of those with the lowest individual ranking

Suggestions:

• Alexandros Papadiamantis - 23 replaced with Ismail Kadare - 69
• Kostis Palamas - 28 (poe) replaced with Ivan Vazov - 52

List of authors after second scrutinium (by interwikis) - "national quotas model":

• 1/ Taras Shevchenko - 102 (poe)
• 2/ Wisława Szymborska - 100 (poe)
• 3/ Henryk Sienkiewicz - 98
• 4/ Czesław Miłosz - 98 (poe)
• 5/ Svetlana Alexievich - 96 (jour)
• 6/ Adam Mickiewicz - 90 (poe)
• 7/ Imre Kertész - 89
• 8/ Ivo Andrić - 88
• 9/ Joseph Conrad - 87
• 10/ Władysław Reymont - 85
• 11/ Giorgos Seferis - 82 (poe)
• 12/ Milan Kundera - 82
• 13/ Jaroslav Seifert - 82 (poe)
• 14/ Yanka Kupala - 82 (poe)
• 15/ Olga Tokarczuk - 80
• 16/ Elie Wiesel - 79
• 17/ Stanisław Lem - 77
• 18/ Karel Čapek - 77 (dram)
• 19/ Eugène Ionesco - 76 (dram)
• 20/ Odysseas Elytis - 75
• 21/ Lesya Ukrainka - 75 (poe)
• 22/ Ismail Kadare - 69
• 23/ Jaroslav Hašek - 68
• 24/ Mihai Eminescu - 67 (poe)
• 25/ Tristan Tzara - 66 (poe)
• 26/ Ivan Franko - 66 (poe)
• 27/ Sándor Petőfi - 64 (poe)
• 28/ France Prešeren - 64 (poe)
• 29/ Nikos Kazantzakis - 58
• 30/ Janusz Korczak - 54
• 31/ Constantine P. Cavafy - 53 (poe)
• 32/ Andrzej Sapkowski - 52
• 33/ Ivan Vazov - 52
• 34/ Witold Gombrowicz - 49
• 35/ Paul Celan - 49
• 36/ Bohumil Hrabal - 47
• 37/ Jan Neruda - 47 (poe)
• 38/ Ryszard Kapuściński - 46 (jour)
• 39/ Sholem Aleichem - 46
• 40/ Bruno Schulz - 45
• 41/ Božena Němcová - 45
• 42/ Bolesław Prus - 44
• 43/ Juliusz Słowacki - 44 (poe)
• 44/ Endre Ady - 43 (poe)
• 45/ Marie Under - 43 (poe)
• 46/ Dimitrie Cantemir - 42
• 47/ Ľudovít Štúr - 42 (jour)
• 48/ Yiannis Ritsos - 41 (poe)
• 49/ Ivan Cankar - 41
• 50/ Lydia Koidula - 41 (poe)
• 51/ Friedrich Reinhold Kreutzwald - 41 (poe)
• 52/ Ján Kollár - 40
• 53/ Dubravka Ugrešić - 40
• 54/ Sławomir Mrożek - 39
• 55/ Maria Konopnicka - 39
• 56/ Ivana Brlić-Mažuranić - 38
• 57/ Ion Luca Caragiale - 37 (dram)
• 58/ Rigas Feraios - 36 (poe)
• 59/ Jonas Basanavičius - 35 (jour)
• 60/ Vladimir Bartol - 34
• 61/ Vítězslav Nezval - 32 (poe)
• 62/ Rainis - 31 (poe)
• 63/ Dionysios Solomos - 29 (poe)

Third scrutinium

Candidates for third scrutinium:

• Yakub Kolas - 69
• Radoje Domanović - 63

Minimum correction:

• Dionysios Solomos - 29 (poe) replaced with Yakub Kolas - 69
• Vítězslav Nezval - 32 (poe) replaced with Radoje Domanović - 63 (not Rainis - 31, because he is the only representative of Latvia)

Fourth scrutinium

32 persons in Prose - need 33:

Rigas Feraios -36 replaced with with Sándor Márai - 43 (not Basanavičius because he is the only representative of Lithuania)

FINAL list by interwiki:

• 1/ Taras Shevchenko - 102 (poe)
• 2/ Wisława Szymborska - 100 (poe)
• 3/ Henryk Sienkiewicz - 98
• 4/ Czesław Miłosz - 98 (poe)
• 5/ Svetlana Alexievich - 96 (jour)
• 6/ Adam Mickiewicz - 90 (poe)
• 7/ Imre Kertész - 89
• 8/ Ivo Andrić - 88
• 9/ Joseph Conrad - 87
• 10/ Władysław Reymont - 85
• 11/ Giorgos Seferis - 82 (poe)
• 12/ Milan Kundera - 82
• 13/ Jaroslav Seifert - 82
• 14/ Yanka Kupala - 82
• 15/ Olga Tokarczuk - 80
• 16/ Elie Wiesel - 79
• 17/ Stanisław Lem - 77
• 18/ Karel Čapek - 77 (dram)
• 19/ Eugène Ionesco - 76 (dram)
• 20/ Odysseas Elytis - 75
• 21/ Lesya Ukrainka - 75 (poe)
• 22/ Ismail Kadare - 69
• 23/ Yakub Kolas - 69 (poe)
• 24/ Jaroslav Hašek - 68
• 25/ Mihai Eminescu - 67 (poe)
• 26/ Tristan Tzara - 66 (poe)
• 27/ Ivan Franko - 66 (poe)
• 28/ Sándor Petőfi - 64 (poe)
• 29/ France Prešeren - 64 (poe)
• 30/ Radoje Domanović - 63
• 31/ Nikos Kazantzakis - 58
• 32/ Janusz Korczak - 54
• 33/ Constantine P. Cavafy - 53 (poe)
• 34/ Andrzej Sapkowski - 52
• 35/ Ivan Vazov - 52
• 36/ Witold Gombrowicz - 49
• 37/ Paul Celan - 49 (poe)
• 38/ Bohumil Hrabal - 47
• 39/ Jan Neruda - 47 (poe)
• 40/ Ryszard Kapuściński - 46 (jour)
• 41/ Sholem Aleichem - 46
• 42/ Bruno Schulz - 45
• 43/ Božena Němcová - 45
• 44/ Bolesław Prus - 44
• 45/ Juliusz Słowacki - 44 (poe)
• 46/ Endre Ady - 43 (poe)
• 47/ Marie Under - 43 (poe)
• 48/ Sándor Márai - 43
• 49/ Dimitrie Cantemir - 42
• 50/ Ľudovít Štúr - 42 (jour)
• 51/ Yiannis Ritsos - 41 (poe)
• 52/ Ivan Cankar - 41
• 53/ Lydia Koidula - 41 (poe)
• 54/ Friedrich Reinhold Kreutzwald - 41 (poe)
• 55/ Ján Kollár - 40 (poe)
• 56/ Dubravka Ugrešić - 40
• 57/ Sławomir Mrożek - 39 (dram)
• 58/ Maria Konopnicka - 39
• 59/ Ivana Brlić-Mažuranić - 38
• 60/ Ion Luca Caragiale - 37 (dram)
• 61/ Jonas Basanavičius - 35 (jour)
• 62/ Vladimir Bartol - 34
• 63/ Rainis - 31 (poe)

FINAL LIST by genre in alphabetical order:

Prose (33)

• 1/ Sholem Aleichem - 46
• 2/ Svetlana Alexievich - 96 (transferred from journalism)
• 3/ Ivo Andrić - 88
• 4/ Vladimir Bartol - 34
• 5/ Ivana Brlić-Mažuranić - 38
• 6/ Dimitrie Cantemir - 42
• 7/ Ivan Cankar - 41
• 8/ Joseph Conrad - 87
• 9/ Radoje Domanović - 63
• 10/ Odysseas Elytis - 75
• 11/ Witold Gombrowicz - 49
• 12/ Jaroslav Hašek - 68
• 13/ Bohumil Hrabal - 47
• 14/ Ismail Kadare - 69
• 15/ Nikos Kazantzakis - 58
• 16/ Imre Kertész - 89
• 17/ Maria Konopnicka - 39
• 18/ Janusz Korczak - 54
• 19/ Milan Kundera - 82
• 20/ Yanka Kupala - 82
• 21/ Stanisław Lem - 77
• 22/ Sándor Márai - 43
• 23/ Božena Němcová - 45
• 24/ Jan Neruda - 47 (transferred from poetry)
• 25/ Bolesław Prus - 44
• 26/ Władysław Reymont - 85
• 27/ Andrzej Sapkowski - 52
• 28/ Henryk Sienkiewicz - 98
• 29/ Bruno Schulz - 45
• 30/ Olga Tokarczuk - 80
• 31/ Dubravka Ugrešić - 40
• 32/ Ivan Vazov - 52
• 33/ Elie Wiesel - 79

Poetry (23)

• 1/ Endre Ady - 43
• 2/ Constantine P. Cavafy - 53
• 3/ Paul Celan - 49
• 4/ Mihai Eminescu - 67
• 5/ Ivan Franko - 66
• 6/ Lydia Koidula - 41
• 7/ Yakub Kolas - 69
• 8/ Ján Kollár - 40
• 9/ Friedrich Reinhold Kreutzwald - 41
• 10/ Adam Mickiewicz - 90
• 11/ Czesław Miłosz - 98
• 12/ Sándor Petőfi - 64
• 13/ France Prešeren - 64
• 14/ Rainis - 31
• 15/ Yiannis Ritsos - 41
• 16/ Giorgos Seferis - 82
• 17/ Jaroslav Seifert - 82
• 18/ Taras Shevchenko - 102
• 19/ Juliusz Słowacki - 44
• 20/ Wisława Szymborska - 100
• 21/ Tristan Tzara - 66
• 22/ Lesya Ukrainka - 75
• 23/ Marie Under - 43

Drama (5)

• 1/ Karel Čapek - 77
• 2/ Ion Luca Caragiale - 37
• 3/ Eugène Ionesco - 76
• 4/ Sławomir Mrożek - 39

Journalism (2)

• 1/ Jonas Basanavičius - 35
• 2/ Ryszard Kapuściński - 46
• 3/ Ľudovít Štúr - 42

Drama and Journalism do not have a fixed local quota, so the discrepancy does not matter. If the original situation is to be fully preserved, Štúr can be moved to Politics and Branislav Nušić - 41 or Stanisław Ignacy Witkiewicz - 37 can be added to the drama.

Interesting fact: 10 women on the new list, 6 in old (actual) list - without a specific focus on greater gender equality!

Possible Fifth scrutinium

Candidates for eventual fifth scrutinium "Westerners to the west": Joseph Conrad, Elie Wiesel, Tristan Tzara (poe) and Paul Celan (poe) can be relocated to West literature and they can be replaced with:

• Lina Kostenko - 43 (poe)
• Milorad Pavić - 43
• Naim Frashëri - 41
• Hristo Botev - 39 (poe)

General discussion

Hi there, you clearly put in a lot of work gathering this data so I figure someone should respond.

First off, it looks like you're editing anonymously / via IP address, which is fine, but it does make discussion a bit harder. However you decide to continue editing, just don't forget to sign your posts on the talk pages by typing ~~~~ at the end of your comment.

More to the content of your post, I think this is some really great legwork. One issue though is that it's a lot of text and not entirely clear at first glance what the intent is. If I understand right, you're writing who you would like to see swapped in & out prior to each of the large lists? Or is it a data analysis, and if so, what are your main conclusions? Are you proposing all 5 of your "scrutinii" in parallel, or to pick from one of the 5 as an option?

The second issue, though more minor, is people will almost definitely want to discuss your reasons for making your choices (for example, why weigh by HDI or GDP instead of population?) Also, I'm probably more in a minority on this count, but I've never actually seen a solid argument that interwikis are a reliable metric for vitality, at least not proportionally. There is probably a difference between orders of interwiki links (e.g. < 10 vs. 10-100 vs. > 100), but even then, you have to account for biases, such as non-neutral editors spamming translations.

In short, I'd suggest extracting out only the changes you'd like to propose from this post, then list each small change-set separately in its own proposal. You can still refer to the criteria here, but you only need to compare the data for the relevant articles. You'll also probably want to give other reasons for your choices in case people don't find the metrics you've used compelling.

Anyways, cheers and welcome to VA Level 5. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 01:36, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for paying attention to my comment. My final list is just for inspiration. It seems to me that it is stronger than the one I see in Vital 5 now. I don't want to push specific names. Use my data or don't use it. I just think that if Vital 5 with its established mechanisms does not approach this list, there is a flaw in the system.

A few notes and arguments about my method: I know that the interwikis criterion is not indisputable. Sometimes it can happen that a certain author is overvalued by some "P.R. campaign". I myself have discovered and eliminated one such case (Viktor Dyk). One must be careful. On the other hand: can there really be a significant author with 4, 6, 9 interwikis? After 23 years of the Misplaced Pages movement? I don't believe it. And I see many such in the current Vital 5 list.

And another argument: it is much harder to P.R. or "spam" campaign to push an insignificant author onto 40 language versions of Misplaced Pages than onto the Vital 5 list. Even here, various fans try to push a lot of things. And it's much easier for them.

The criterion of population is implicitly included in the GDP criterion - more people create a larger product. But GDP is a little more "cultural" - a smaller nation can be more efficient than a larger one. And the HDI reinforces this cultural tuning even more. Personally, I don't like any quotas and the nationality criterion could easily be completely ignored and just try to measure the global importance of a particular individual. But it seemed to me that the tendency towards quotas prevails here, so I adapted and tried to objectify the matter somehow.

Finally, excuse my bad English. 109.81.83.249 (talk) 08:57, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

Ah ok, all good points. And I wouldn't worry about your English; it's quite fine. I just wasn't clear on your intentions for the data from the structure of your post. I don't normally participate much on the Writers list, but we can leave your data up for a bit. Maybe someone else that likes to spend time on that list will suggest some changes based on your work in the new year. Cheers! -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 14:40, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

Add Jens Stoltenberg

Prime minister of Norway for 9 years and Secretary General of NATO for 10 years.

Support

1. as nom. Sahaib (talk) 21:26, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 06:36, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
3. Makkool (talk) 17:15, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
4. Weak support, mainly just using how I voted in the Mark Rutte proposal as precedent. Would have been in charge when NATO left Afghanistan and the first years of the Russo-Ukrainian War too. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 20:37, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Edi Rama

Has served as prime minister of Albania since 2013.

Support

1. As nom. Sahaib (talk) 14:42, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nom. Makkool (talk) 12:39, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
3. Weak support, not sure how powerful the PM position is in Albania, but Leaders has a cushion for now. We can revisit more systematically when pruning the section. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 20:37, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

Move Zero Mostel from comedians to stage actors

His vitality stems from his three Tony Awards, especially the one for Teyve. _pbp 15:18, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 15:18, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
2. Sure, why not? -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 01:36, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
3. Makkool (talk) 13:10, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

Add Breyten Breytenbach

A while back there was actually a vote to remove his brother, Jan Breytenbach, a soldier far less well known than he is. Also quite a nice South African who has hardly killed anyone.

Support

1. Nom Iostn (talk) 17:46, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Move Robert Cecil, 1st Viscount Cecil of Chelwood  5 and Ralph Bunche  5 to politicians

I cannot fathom why they are not listed under politicians when their principal endeavors were diplomatic/political (both received the Nobel Peace Prize for diplomacy). In addition, Cecil was a Cabinet secretary in the British government. _pbp 16:07, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. _pbp 16:07, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 17:15, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
3. Agree completely that, for now, Politicians is probably the best place for them. TBF though, we really don't have a good area for non-military officers (diplomats, economic planners, viziers, etc.) -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 20:37, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster doesn't really do anything. Sahaib (talk) 16:40, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

Cecil also served in both houses of parliament _pbp 20:17, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Best-selling non-vital musicians

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I have compiled them. This could help people who want to make suggestions, though some have already been discussed before.

We already list a lot of musicians (too many, infact) and we've already been making cuts even towards artists that are among the best selling due to their lack of relevance and importance over time. And a lot of these are simply either too recent or fall into that category I just mentioned. I would not support the vast majority of these myself. λ NegativeMP1 01:46, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

Remove some smaller sports figures

Remove Robert Fulford (croquet player)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

We recently downgraded Croquet  5 from Level 4 to 5. There's less reason to have a croquet pro in the list. Fulford has zero interwikis as well.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 08:24, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
2. _pbp 19:44, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
3. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 00:49, 25 December 2024 (UTC)
4. Support. I don't believe sports figures are generally "vital" in all but the most extreme cases. GeogSage 22:16, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose

1. I'd rather cut one of the 4 21st century esport players or 3 frisbee players than the only croquet guy. We should leave at least one rep from that sport.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:26, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

I am really feeling that Frisbee  4 is getting overrated. (I grew 10 doors down the street from a world frisbee champion and saw him practicing on his front lawn all the time so I don't mean any disrespect). Both Ultimate frisbee  5 and Disc golf  5 are sports that started in the 1960s. Whereas Croquet  5 is a sport from the 1850s. I can't believe that we are giving frisbee 3 spots and tossing the only croquet guy. Honestly, there must be some Boomerang  4 person who should be listed before we have three frisbee guys. Although Esports  5 are from the 1970s, I understand they represent big money, and who hasn't played video games. Because of the big money in the sport in the last decade, I could see it holding down 4 spots.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 18:33, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Neutral

• My first instinct is to support as too niche... but then I realized a lot of people are at least familiar with croquet. So maybe including one notable player is worth it for the coverage? Just pumping the brakes though; I definitely won't oppose. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 14:40, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
• If there really is a "player who has dominated the sport" as this article suggests, then I'd be fine with a VA5. The article suggests they won quite a few world championships, but hardly dominated. Lee Vilenski 09:07, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
  • I don't know the sport of croquet very well. I would think the term dominant might mean won championships at an unprecedented scale. Tom Brady  4 is regarded as having elite vitality for this reason although there was never a period of true dominance. Roger Federer  4 had a mere 7 year period of dominance. Jack Nicklaus  4, won the most without any period of dominance as strong as as Fulford's and a shorter period of excellence. If the article could establish whether the number of championships was an unprecedented scale, then this case would be clearer. It is possible someone else won more and it is possible that this is the mountaintop for the sport. The article is silent on his relative excellence. I think this level of excellence should require displacement by another croquet player who could be documented as more dominant than this guy. I don't think we should just wipe him from the list.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:27, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
• While I am sympathetic to having a croquet player included and I understand the implications of using interwikis as a factor, this guy's article doesn't appear in any language other than English. _pbp 13:59, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Remove George Balabushka  5

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

A designer and maker of pool cues. A legend in his field, but feels hardly a vital figure to list.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 08:24, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
2. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 00:49, 25 December 2024 (UTC)
3. Interesting, but way too niche. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 14:40, 30 December 2024 (UTC)
4. Support. I don't believe sports figures are generally "vital" in all but the most extreme cases. GeogSage 22:16, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose

1. I don't shoot pool, but I recognize this guys name 5 decades after his death. Unlike the other three, his legacy is quite clear. The closest peer to him who overlapped his lifetime was probably Orville Gibson  5-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:15, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
2. I think one of Balabushka or John Parris should be listed here. Not culled. Lee Vilenski 09:03, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
3. Arguably niche, but if he invented the most widespread design for a cue stick then he should be listed. I wouldn't even consider him to be a "sports figure". Side note: we should list Cue stick. λ NegativeMP1 09:17, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

   User:NegativeMP1, nominations are pretty simple if you want to hold the discussion.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 23:02, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

   Yeah, I'm currently debating whether or not I want to create the proposal. λ NegativeMP1 23:23, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Discuss

I think I may have under-estimated the importance of pool and the meaning of pool cue designs. Snooker is a really popular sport in the UK, and it's a type of pool, which I hadn't realised. A question to you, who oppose removing him: Should we add Eigil Nielsen (footballer, born 1918), who is the designer of the modern soccer ball? Makkool (talk) 13:43, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

This point of excellence/vitality is unsourced WP:OR in its current form. Once it is sourced, his nomination would have a good shot.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:49, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

It isn't unsourced (citations 7-9). Makkool (talk) 13:58, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

It is like I didn't have my glasses on or something, but I did. I missed the mid paragraph refs. The nomination certainly is eligible. No one can promise how the vote would go.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:22, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Snooker isn't actually a type of pool, they are just part of the same family of games (see cue sports), John Parris would be a lot more well known in snooker, Balabushka is more for nine-ball and especially things like billiards. Considering there are so many amounts of cue sports out there, there is scope for someone who is most known for making cues. I'm not really sure if Balabushka or Parris should be here, just one or both.

I'd actually argue we should also add William Hoskins (inventor) for inventing the modern day billiard chalk and the electric heating coil (used in toasters and space heaters). Lee Vilenski 13:49, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

User:Lee Vilenski, I'd support his nomination-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 23:06, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Remove Mika Kohonen

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

A floorball player. Arguably one of the best players of all time, but floorball is globally a niche sport only popular in Northern Europe.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 08:24, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
2. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 00:49, 25 December 2024 (UTC)
3. Support. I don't believe sports figures are generally "vital" in all but the most extreme cases. GeogSage 22:16, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
4. Floorball (essentially turf floor hockey) seems too niche to me. There is probably an inline hockey guy somewhere who is similarly elite, but we can't protect everyone. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:28, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Remove Frederick Humphreys (athlete)  5

Won a gold medal in tug-of-war, when it was briefly an Olympic sport. Tug-of-war is a Level 4 article, but still I don't think it's necessary to have a figure listed for that sport. Tug-of-war is more an informal thing, and it being a competetive sport seems more like a historical edge case.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 08:24, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
2. Support. I don't believe sports figures are generally "vital" in all but the most extreme cases. GeogSage 22:16, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
3. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:39, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

TWO gold medals, FWIW. Fourteen interwikis, which is substantially more than some of the others up for removal. I think the question might be, "would he be vital if this was a different sport?" Does two relay medals get you VA5? Does two team medals in basketball get you VA5? _pbp 20:02, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

This may be a bit of a forced analogy, but compare Scottie Pippen. Scottie is NOT at VA5, although he may be one of the most influential basketball players to not be. Scottie has 6 NBA (team) championships in addition to two Gold medals (1992 and 1996). _pbp 20:04, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

It's really hard to say what's worth including and what's too marginal. I mostly think that examples like Humphreys broadens the scope too thin, but I realize we can't just have it all be football, baseball, basketball and athletics. In any case, I would support swapping Humphreys with Pippen. Makkool (talk) 20:24, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

I don't think Pippen is the man on the outside of the bubble right now. I don't think tug of war requires a spot on the list, short of an individual who maybe spanned 4 Olympics or something.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:39, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Looking into sports people, I think that the person should be the most notable person in the sport, notable globally across sports, have impacted the rules of the sport/how it is played, or be influential outside of the sport for some reason. The mass of athletes we have has a heavy recency bias, and a heavy western bias, because in the long run most are not vital. In 100 years, which will be remembered? Which do we absolutely need to understand the sport? The measure for athlete vitality is far to loose. GeogSage 08:25, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

User:GeogSage by your standard would someone like a Bill Bradley who went on to be a Rhodes Scholar and a three-term US Senator after being a college and pro basketball Hall of Famer seem more vital than just an athlete?-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 16:58, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Remove Feliks Zemdegs  5

Speedcubing is pretty niche at a V5 already so I don't believe we need any subpages for it. -1ctinus📝🗨 15:14, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. as nom -1ctinus📝🗨 15:14, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
2. Support per nom. I was also thinking of nominating him. Makkool (talk) 10:25, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
3. Yeah, Rubik's cube competitions are way too niche. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 14:40, 30 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Jerry Buss  5, Add Lamar Hunt and Jack Kent Cooke

Jerry Buss is primarily notable for a single sport: basketball Los Angeles Lakers  5. He didn't even construct the arenas the Lakers play in: the Forum was Cooke and Staples Center (I refuse to call it Crypto.com Arena) was Phil Anschutz. I say this as a Lakers fan.

Jack Kent Cooke owned the Lakers, created the Los Angeles Kings, and owned the Washington Redskins. Lamar Hunt is in Halls of Fame for both football and soccer; both football (the AFC championship) and soccer (the U.S. Open Cup) award trophies in his name.

Support

1. _pbp 18:23, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

Mixed

1. Support removing Buss and adding Hunt, oppose Cooke. Kevinishere15 (talk) 20:56, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
2. same as kevinishere. Cooke doesn't seem to stand out more than any other sports team owner. I'd rather have Buss than Cooke because at least Buss was owner during the Showtime Era. Aurangzebra (talk) 21:54, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
3. Support adding Hunt.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:17, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
4. Support removing Buss, oppose adding Cooke, largely just to clear up the margin. Along with TonyTheTiger's vote, we should now be at 4-0 for swapping out Buss and putting in Hunt, 1-3 against adding Cooke. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 20:37, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

Add Scorpion I to Leaders -> Ancient Egypt_Ancient_Egypt-20241231023700">

So some might be turned off by the relatively short article, but I don't think the current size reflects the notability or potential sources. I'm not an expert, but I'm pretty sure there's much more archaeology surrounding him.

Pretty much, Scorpion I is (to date) the earliest attested Egyptian pharaoh, and may have started some of the institutions commonly associated with the Egyptian state for millennia. He only ruled Upper (Southern) Egypt before it was unified with the North, during the prehistoric Naqada III period (so hieroglyphs weren't fully developed yet either). There's notable evidence though that he was a major figure in the evolution of a centralized Egyptian state. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 02:37, 31 December 2024 (UTC)_Ancient_Egypt"> _Ancient_Egypt">

Support

1. As nom. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 02:37, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Add Abu Sa'id al-Jannabi to Leaders -> Medieval Middle-East_Medieval_Middle-East-20241231023700">

This guy was the founder and first ruler of the Qarmatian state in East Arabia, around 900 CE. They were a major opponent of the Abbasid caliphate and later became notorious in the wider Islamic world for attacking Mecca. Some also consider their social organization maybe the closest thing to the USSR of the Middle Ages. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 02:37, 31 December 2024 (UTC)_Medieval_Middle-East"> _Medieval_Middle-East">

Support

1. As nom. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 02:37, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Add recent military leaders from the Russo-Ukrainian War

After reclassifying less political brigands and pirates under Criminals, instead of Rebels, we have a lot of slots open in the military section. I normally don't suggest recent figures, and I know the topic brings out a lot of emotion in people, but I think the current war between Russia and Ukraine is clearly historical. That makes generals from both sides notable:

• Valery Gerasimov, general staff and current theater commander of Russian forces
• Oleksandr Syrskyi, current commander of Ukrainian forces
• Sergey Surovikin, previous theater commander of Russian forces, also led Russian forces in the Syrian civil war
• Valerii Zaluzhnyi, previous commander of Ukrainian forces

I don't know whether he belongs under Rebels, Businesspeople, or something else, but I'd also suggest

• Yevgeny Prigozhin,

both for his role in forming the Wagner Group and the weird (sort of?) rebellion he led in 2023. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 02:37, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 02:37, 31 December 2024 (UTC)
2. Support. See discussion.GeogSage 18:30, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose

Mixed

Neutral

Discussion

• This is an interesting situation. As the conflict continues, these roles might change. A leader who seems vital now may in hindsight be only a footnote in a larger war. Furthermore, can we use these modern leaders to look back in time to other conflicts and identify people who might be "vital." For example, August von Mackensen led the join invasion of Serbia during the Serbian campaign  5 of WWI (which likely saw at least 700,000 combat casualties on all sides, and between half a million and 800,000 dead civilians). WWI is not in the news today so not on the forefront of our minds, but it seems to me that either people like him are vital, or people like Valery Gerasimov are not, as a vital article should ideally always be vital.GeogSage 18:30, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Add Hassan Djamous to Military leaders -> Modern African_Modern_African-20241231023700">

Upfront, the page is currently a stub and may not have many interwikis, but I suspect that's more a coverage bias than a lack of notability.

He was the commander of Chadian forces during the Chadian-Libyan War, and became famous for his effective use of light technicals, particularly at the Battle of Fada. Chad ultimately won the war, which is sometimes known as the Toyota War due to Chadian tactics under his command. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 02:37, 31 December 2024 (UTC)_Modern_African"> _Modern_African">

Support

1. As nom. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 02:37, 31 December 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Remove Robin Cook (American novelist)  5

Out of all suspense and crime writers we list in the Modern US and Canada writers section, he seems least vital. Has released best-sellers and had TV and movie adaptations made from this works, but isn't a household-name like Clive Cussler or Michael Chrichton. Hasn't received any literary awards in the genre.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 17:51, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
2. Support, I've actually heard of him and he may have a lot of overlap with Michael Crichton's audience. We're over-quota with Writers already though, and I'm starting to wonder how much VA5 should make space for contemporary best sellers. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 20:37, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Remove self-help writers

Looking at the list of modern US and Canada writers, we have a lot of self-help authors. These books are popular, but their writers aren't really so important for literature to be included. I would argue that the only writer of self-help books that's vital enough would be Dale Carnegie  5, who wrote the classic "How to Win Friends and Influence People". The following are not as significant as he is.

Remove Tim Ferriss  5

Writer of "4-Hour Work Week" and "Tools of Titans", has also a popular podcast

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 22:24, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
2. Sure. GeogSage 18:14, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
3. Maybe popular but not really vital in a broader sense Iostn (talk) 17:36, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
4. Sure, if he's primarily known for one book or concept, then we should probably list that book or concept if anything. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 20:37, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose

1. I think his vitality has had some longevity.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:31, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

Neutral

Discuss

Remove John Gray (American author)  5

Writer of "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus"

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 22:24, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
2. Sure. GeogSage 18:14, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
3. Sure, if he's primarily known for one book or concept, then we should probably list that book or concept if anything. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 20:37, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Weak oppose. Men Are From Mars, Wonen Are From Venus is a very well-known and impactful book, with over 15 million copies sold. They're not one of the most vital authors ever, but I'd say we can keep them for now. QuicoleJR (talk) 18:13, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

Neutral

Discuss

Remove Robert Greene (American author)  5

Writer of "48 Laws of Power"

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 22:24, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
2. Sure. GeogSage 18:14, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
3. Does not seem vital, we have too many authors as-is. QuicoleJR (talk) 18:25, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
4. Sure, if he's primarily known for one book or concept, then we should probably list that book or concept if anything. It is really funny and ironic though that we list the Prince of Persuasia. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 20:37, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Would it make sense to swap for The 48 Laws of Power? It seems to be more well-known than its author Iostn (talk) 17:36, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

Remove Tony Robbins  5

Writer of "Unlimited Power" and "Awaken the Giant Within", also a popular seminar speaker

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 22:24, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
2. Sure. GeogSage 18:14, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
3. Weak support, though this guy has been around long enough that he's arguably a celebrity in his own right. He may have actually created the entire "motivational speaker" business model. So if we decide motivational speakers should be listed, he should almost definitely be on there. I'm skeptical about us having room for that though. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 20:37, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Remove Eckhart Tolle  5

Writer of "The Power of Now", also an influential spiritual teacher. Maybe he could be vital as a religious figure, but at least not as a writer.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 22:24, 2 January 2025 (UTC)
2. Sure. GeogSage 18:14, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

1. Move to religious figures? He has 45 interwikis and over 40k views in the last 30 days Iostn (talk) 17:36, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

   Honestly, the way I've heard people refer to him, I didn't even realize he was a contemporary author. I always thought he was some obscure, 18th-century mystic that the internet turned into a fad. For all the other recentism we tolerate under People though, we really don't have many New Age movement religious figures at all. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 20:37, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

   You're propably thinking about Meister Eckhart, whose name Tolle took for himself. It's true that we list too few new age figures. I'll let this proposal be open for a while, and if removal isn't getting support, I'll close this and move this. Makkool (talk) 18:58, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Remove Alan Carr

I assumed he was in the comedian section but he is actually in the television hosts and personalities section. Either way, he currently has 14 languages links compared to British comedians David Mitchell, Jimmy Carr (not related) and Rob Brydon who all have 20+.

Support

1. As nom. Sahaib (talk) 06:16, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 17:15, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
3. Support. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 20:37, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Remove Anne Wojcicki

Currently in the other section of businesspeople. 23andMe is not at level 5, subject has a lot less language links than her sister Susan Wojcicki (who is at level 5).

Support

1. As nom. Sahaib (talk) 12:29, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 17:15, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
3. per nom, probably thousands of founder-CEOs of larger companies we don't list. Aurangzebra (talk) 03:48, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
4. Support. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 20:37, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
5. Iostn (talk) 20:42, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Add Angela Burdett-Coutts, 1st Baroness Burdett-Coutts to Philanthropists

Filthy rich 19th-century Brit who was the matron of a bazillion causes. Arguably one of the most influential women of Britain of that period

Support

1. _pbp 13:23, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Her father Francis Burdett is not listed. It would be like listing Lachlan Murdoch, Ivanka Trump, Ailsa Mellon Bruce, Christina Onassis, Frédéric Arnault instead of their fathers. Sahaib (talk) 14:07, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

   Would it, though? Do any of the sons and daughters you list have more interwikis than their daddies? Angela out-interwikis her daddy 17-13. By comparison, Aristotle Onassis throttles his daughter in terms of interwikis, 62-20. With the Mellons, it's 31-4. I'm sorry; while I think your analogy was in good faith, I just don't see it as particularly applicable to the Burdetts _pbp 16:02, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

   If you check the talk page of Francis he is rated as High-importance to WikiProject Politics of the UK, I'm not an expert on the subject so I don't know if that rating is accurate but the point I'm making is that whilst he doesn't get as many pageviews, he is arguably more vital. Sahaib (talk) 16:40, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

Discussion

Remove all or most American Football players, Sports business-people, coaches, and referees

This should be an interesting one. I believe the inclusion of most if not all American Football related people violates two of "The key criteria in determining whether an article is vital."

• First, "While the vitals list is for English Misplaced Pages, the focus is on the world." American Football is not popular globally, and its prominence here is due to not just Western, but American bias. To demonstrate, based on some quick Googling on most popular sports globally, American Football is possibly the 10th most popular based on this, with Volleyball and table tennis having more then DOUBLE the global audience. American Football has 42 articles for players, and 15 for "Sports business-people, coaches, and referees," while Volleyball has 8 total people, and Table Tennis has 5. The 57 articles in American Football reflect a strong American interest that is not the global reality. This is probably the best example of not just "Western" bias, but "American" bias on the vital articles project.

• Next, "Individuals within the People section represent the pinnacles of their field with a material impact on the course of humanity, such as Albert Einstein 3 in "Inventors and scientists", William Shakespeare 3 in "Authors", and Genghis Khan 3 on "Leaders"." Athletes in general do not have much of a material impact on the course of humanity, athletes in a sport that is popular only in the United States, less so.

Any argument to keep so many articles on American Football players must address these two Points. The point of the vital articles project in my understanding is to include "Vital" articles (based on the Vital article criteria), not "Popular" ones. This removal would free up 57 article slots, and based on other conversations we could potentially move them to sections like "Arts" (this would need to be addressed in a separate discussion though). I think based on the criteria that a vital person should have "a material impact on the course of humanity", we could trim the sports figures dramatically. If any articles are kept for American football, it should be closer to the number allocated to Volleyball based on international interest, however any article kept must be vital to the course of humanity, not just the NFL.

Support

1. As nom. GeogSage 20:45, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose

1. That list is quite flawed. The metric is "fans". For our purpose, we should count English-speaking fans. Probably 90% of football fans are English speaking leaving us with over 350 million English wikipedian fans of interest. Probably less than 5% of the 850 million table tennis fans are English speaking giving us maybe 40 million English Misplaced Pages fans of interest for table tennis. So we should not swap in table tennis players for football players.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:19, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
2. Per TonyTheTiger. That list is atrocious. I would consider myself a fan of table tennis and volleyball in the sense that I would watch it if it was on TV and actively enjoy it but I wouldn't actively seek it or go out of my way to attend events. As an example of how skewed this metric is, the 2024 NCAA Division I women's volleyball tournament was the most-watched volleyball tournament ever. Cumulatively, across 63 games, the total watch-time was 22 million hours . The 2023 Super Bowl had 226 million viewing hours in one game . I agree that maybe the list is a bit bloated but removing everyone or even close to everyone is overkill. There are so many other areas you can pick on if you care about proportional vitality. We list 7 ballet-related personalities in VA4. We list an author Chinghiz Aitmatov  4 in VA4 whose works were barely published in English (and when they were, they were primarily from publishers of little to no repute). We list icons of regional musical genres in VA4 such as qawwali and Persian traditional music. I don't advocate for removing any of these but I feel like the existence of these types of articles implies that if something is of utmost importance to one specific culture/region/country, it has a claim to vitality. And at least American football can back it up with enormous viewing numbers and massive fandoms. →Aurangzebra (talk) 21:55, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
3. Respectfully, I think this is an absolutely horrible idea. Even ignoring the fact that we can't remove the VA4 football players here, removing every football player is not something that should ever happen. The United States has 330 million people, so obviously its sports scene would get a bit more representation than other countries, and the NFL has had so much of a cultural impact on our country that some small businesses give employees the Super Bowl  4 off. Besides, it is not only popular in the U.S., since the NFL regularly does games in other countries, Canada has its own league, and flag football is becoming increasingly popular in Africa. I would be fine with trimming the list a little, but I think most of the players we already list are players we should list. QuicoleJR (talk) 18:07, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Neutral

I guess I'm against the proposal as stated, but I support the direction of cutting sports figures some, and as a cri de coeur, I agree completely. I think at some point, we need to step back and have some higher-level discussions about what we're trying to do at this project. For one, the whole VA project does technically already have some official criteria, but we can probably clarify things a lot more. Plus the ones we already have seem to be regularly ignored, but that's a whole different issue. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 04:46, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

Discuss

• @TonyTheTiger, "While the vitals list is for the English Misplaced Pages, the focus is on the world." The Metric of "English speaking fans" is literally Western Bias. Furthermore, this does not address the fact they should have "a material impact on the course of humanity." This isn't about Wikipedian interest, it is about articles that are "Vital." I get that English Misplaced Pages is dominated by American users, this results in a bias, which we can observe by the disproportionate representation American Football recieves. GeogSage 21:50, 3 January 2025 (UTC)
• @Aurangzebra, honestly I don't think athletes are vital in almost all cases unless they did something substantial to change the sport, or outside their sport. Maybe they contribute materially to greenhouse gas emissions substantially, but as individuals on a global level I would not consider them vital. Furthermore, their inclusion is generally a recency bias, as it is unlikely in a century or two 20th century athletes are going to be "vital." How many 18th centry athletes are listed? 17th century? The 20th and 21st century should be allocated an equal amount. I'd support removing everything you listed, but American Football has an undeniable Western Bias, and would start there. Vital articles seems to be a popularity contest in most cases rather then actually addressing what makes something "vital" by the projects criteria. GeogSage 22:14, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

  I think sport has become such an important part of our cultural fabric that it is worth allocating a fair amount of spots for athletes. Billions of people watch sports, it's estimated to generate 2.65 trillion dollars in revenue every year , and it is a sizeable factor in geopolitical and economic incidents (see Politics and sports and the associated category). We have literally had an entire war started because of a sports match (see Football War  5). It sounds like you're not a big sports fan so from your perspective, I can get why sports seems lowbrow. But it is worth noting that art and music were also considered lowbrow at one point as any new cultural activity is when it is first introduced. Classical music today signifies high culture and class but it wasn't always like that. The work of Johann Sebastian Bach  3, a VA3 musician, was not considered artistic and the only reason we have a Bach catalogue today is because some of his family members decided to preserve it and because of the Bach Revival critical reassessment that happened nearly a century later. Antonio Vivaldi  4, whose VA4 Four Seasons is considered an artistic masterpiece, was a glorified court entertainer whose work wasn't taken seriously in his lifetime and died in poverty. His work was only critically re-assessed two centuries later. I think it's unfair to write off sports especially when it's hard to imagine that sports will ever fade as a cultural influence. I know it's a bit of crystal-balling so I am willing to compromise and agree to a small reduction but anything more drastic would be unwise. Aurangzebra (talk) 03:04, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

  Sports is important to the cultural fabric, most athletes are not important to sports. For example, Backstreet Boys  5 was a band that influenced subsequent boybands and is included. Nick Carter is not. Teams might be important, but most athletes listed are not vital to the understanding of the sports. In 200 years, I doubt that most 20th century athletes will be considered vital. From a global perspective, American Football is not a very important sport, and globally, American Football related people are not well known. This is recency and western bias, as well as mostly just people nominating people they like, not people who are vital. GeogSage 18:35, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

I really detest the ebb and flow of the allocation of quota. Last year we hacked cities and politicians. Now, it looks like athletes are on the chopping block. Sporting events, surrounding tourism, merchandising, and advertising are major elements of our economy. The athletes who play them are idolized and emulated by many. We are starting the new year taking 315 slots from the biological sciences and 50 from the physical sciences. That is not enough. Now we are following that up the three prompt reallotment discussions. I do not support reduced athletes.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 03:42, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

There are only 50,000 Vital article slots, and we currently have 49,911 articles according to the table on Misplaced Pages:Vital articles (not sure how accurate it is). To make room for vital articles, we have to find places to cut. As time moves forward, we will have to raise the bar substantially. If we continued with the current practice for athletes and sports individuals, the list would grow as new athletes start careers every year. I believe to avoid recency bias where old athletes need to be constantly purged for new ones, we need extremely high standards for what makes a person vital. An example I gave below I couldn't argue with is Michael Jordan  4, who I think should be the model for how impactful an athlete needs to be for inclusion. In 200 years, he might be remembered, but most will be lines in a spreadsheet. I struggle to think any athlete in history is more vital then Fletching  5, or Arrowhead  5, both of which you stated you'd support removing. Sports might be a significant cultural phenomena, but the people playing them aren't generally vital to the understanding of the sport. GeogSage 21:16, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

• I would support cutting sportspeople from 1200 to 1100. Almost every sportsperson we list became active after 1900. We probably list more post-1945 athletes than politicians and leaders and definitely much more than post-1945 musicians, scientists, writers, businesspeople, etc. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 20:13, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
• I somewhat sympathize with the point that sportspeople are bloated. I also sympathize with the idea that American footballers in particular are overrepresented. I looked at the interwikis for footballers and the interwikis for tennis players, and found 1) the tennis players frequently have more, and 2) several of the football players have <10, which is a bit of a red flag. However, I CANNOT wholly support cutting EVERY SINGLE American footballer. If Geog had instead come to us asking that football players be cut to 20 and football coaches/contributors be cut as well, THEN I would support this. _pbp 21:04, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

  I'm all about radical compromise. Personally, I don't consider athletes vital. I consider them like members of boy bands, the band might be vital, most athletes are not. That said, there could be arguments made for select athletes that I might struggle to overcome, like Michael Jordan  4 who seems to have had an outsized influence on both the sport and society. That example would be where I'd personally set my bar for a level 5 vital athlete. I appreciate this response, as while I really think most athletes are not vital at all, most of our list is recency bias that will be irrelevant in a century, and American Football is the definition of western bias, I'd rather see major cuts then none at all. GeogSage 18:41, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

• @Zar2gar1 Yeah, I think we probably need to discuss what the goal is, what each level requires, and possibly expand on our "vital" criteria. Vital to me probably means a different thing then to others, I tend to look at it as a foundation that you would need to understand other topics. I also sort of think of it as "If Misplaced Pages were a traditional print encyclopedia, what articles would we include?" For example, one of Encyclopædia Britannica's last print edition is discussed on the page: "Britannica Global Edition was also printed in 2010, containing 30 volumes and 18,251 pages, with 8,500 photographs, maps, flags, and illustrations in smaller "compact" volumes, as well as over 40,000 articles written by scholars from across the world, including Nobel Prize winners. " If we needed to make a similar product of ONLY 50,000 articles, which 50,000 would we pick? I think that we are doing fairly okay at levels 3 and up, although I have my strong complaints there. Levels 4 and 5 feel like a haphazardly organized mess of crowd sourced opinions on what is vital. The articles we include at level 5 in particular rarely consider the "whole" of how the finite spots could be used. Britannica's online encyclopedia has roughly 130,000 articles, I wonder how much our list overlaps with what they decided to include? Would need some serious effort to quantify, but could be a fun experiment in seeing how crowd sourced vs expertly designed compare.

GeogSage 18:57, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

Alternate proposal: Reduce American football players quota to 20 players and 10 coaches/contributors

Thoughts?

Support

1. _pbp 16:42, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
2. I can support this. I'd prefer more, but think this would be better then nothing. I really think we have confused popular and vital in the sports and athletes pages. A person is not vital unless they are truely exceptional, or have done something to actually change the way their sport is played. GeogSage 02:16, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose

1. I thought we were doing away with subsection quotas. This seems like an arbitrary number and very drastic. Other arguements above.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 17:31, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

   Let me try to scope this out: are you oppose to ANY football player or exec removals? _pbp 19:57, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

   Not the one's that are not vital:-)-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 01:36, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

   Seriously, we are freeing up 365 spaces that have been on hold for the sciences and you really need to stress us about 27 more spaces. If this were a situation where you needed expertise because there is good reason to reduce 42 football players to 40, I might try to help. I'm really not excited to get involved in reducing 42 football players to 20.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 01:54, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

2. We don't, and shouldn't, use subsection quotas anymore. My opinion is roughly the same as TonyTheTiger's. QuicoleJR (talk) 18:11, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
3. Per above. Especially opposed to subquotas with athletes because of how high variance 'generational' talent is. Recentism bias isn't really a thing for athletes because their accomplishments are concrete and speak for themselves. If within the next few years, five Lionel Messi  4 level talents emerged, it would be a very tough decision who to replace within the association football category but as it currently stands, we can pick from soccer or darts or swimming or boxing. It usually takes decades or even centuries (see Antonio Vivaldi  4) of critical assessment to determine legacy and vitality in other fields which gives a lot of time to make educated decisions. With sports, often times you can usually tell after just a few seasons (some examples I can think of are Shohei Ohtani  5, Patrick Mahomes  5, and Armand Duplantis  5). Aurangzebra (talk) 20:52, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Discussion

Remove Leona Helmsley  5

Looks like she was infamous for a time due to her statements/behavior but the scale of her crimes does not suggest vitality.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 04:28, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 10:15, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
3. Per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 07:42, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Swap Daniel Inouye for Robert F. Kennedy Jr.

RFK Jr. has more language links and has also gotten 10x the pageviews since May 2016 (when the page was moved from Robert F. Kennedy, Jr.). RFK Jr. is notable for a number of things from being a member of the prominent Kennedy family, environmentalism, conspiracy theories, ant-vaccine-activism, running in the 2024 election in which he was the highest polling independent candidate since Ross Perot and now as nominee for secretary of health. Daniel Inouye was notable for being the highest-ranking Asian-American politician in U.S. history which is no longer the case since Kamala Harris became VP in 2020, he was also known for his length in congress but he is only the fourth longest serving member of congress.

Support

1. As nominator. Sahaib (talk) 11:44, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
2. Good points Makkool (talk) 12:39, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Recency. He has not had a lifetime of high-level political leadership and his role might be the lowest ranking cabinet level vital politician. Below State, Treasury and Defense, I have trouble supporting a Secretary. He has a lot of interwikis for being a Kennedy.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 17:04, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
2. Strong oppose (ec with Tony) We have Kennedy family  5 and Vaccine hesitancy  4 already listed. Polling, schmolling tbh...polling had Scott Walker winning the 2016 Republican nomination at one point. RFK Jr. ultimately received less than 1% of the vote; compare John B. Anderson who got 6.6% of the vote in 1980. Also, let's not be prisoner of the moment here...RFK Jr. seems popular now, but will he in a few years? A decade an a half ago, Sarah Palin seemed pretty important; a little before that, 2008 seemed destined to be a matchup between Rudy Giuliani and John Edwards. RFK Jr. hasn't even be confirmed to an office yet. I can probably think of a half-dozen more prisoners-of-the-moment people of the 21st century alone. _pbp 17:20, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

   And let's talk some about Inouye. Along with Kamala, he's one of only two Asian-Americans in the VA5. He served in Congress for 53 years (a few in the House and a ton in the Senate), from Hawaii's statehood until his death, including 18 as a chair of one sort of committee or another. In addition to his longevity in the Senate and being one of the most important Asian-Americans, don't forget about his military career: he also earned the medal of Honor for his WW2 service in the 442 where he got his arm blown off. _pbp 17:51, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

   @Purplebackpack89: RFK Jr. dropped out of the race in August 2024 and endorsed Trump but was still on the ballot in a lot of states (see polling before that here). The fact that despite that, he still got more votes than the Libertarian Party (United States) proves his vitalness even more in my opinion. Robert Byrd (who was removed as a vital article a year ago) is arguably more vital than Inouye because he served longer, gets more page views, has more language links and held more senate positions including Senate Majority Leader and Minority Leader. I don't think Inouye being Asian is enough to justify his inclusion because it could then be argued that Marco Rubio should be added because he is most likely going to become the highest-ranking Hispanic American official in U.S. history. Sahaib (talk) 18:11, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

   Recall I voted to retain Byrd, and would vote to re-add him if proposed, so that line of argument doesn't really work on me (As a former Klansman, Byrd is also obviously not Asian-American). In 2024, while RFK Jr. beat the Libertarians (many of whom ended up supporting Trump/Vance), he did WORSE than Jill Stein (not a vital article); WAY worse than Jill Stein's combined 2016/2020/2024 totals. Or, if you want to compare to other Libertarians, RFK Jr's 2024 vote total is well below that of Gary Johnson in 2016. _pbp 18:39, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

   Latinos? Not opposed to adding a couple of them either. Rubio, Ted Cruz, Ed Roybal, AOC and several others I can easily make the case as being more vital than Bobby Brainworm. For example, Rubio doesn't have his family already listed, has held political office longer, and would hold a higher-ranking office should both he and Bobby be confirmed. _pbp 18:54, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

3. Per above. λ NegativeMP1 20:00, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
4. per pbp. QuicoleJR (talk) 18:30, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Discuss

Swap Margaret, Maid of Norway for Malcolm III of Scotland

Margaret, Maid of Norway is known for having a short disputed reign (similar to Lady Jane Grey who was recently removed), she was also 7 at her death making her possibly the youngest vital person listed. Malcolm III of Scotland, whose name means "great chief" reigned for 35 years during which he invaded England a number of times. Additionally he is major character in Macbeth, his wife was canonised as a saint and his daughter married Henry I of England making him the ancestor of all English monarchs after that.

Support

1. As nominator. Sahaib (talk) 16:38, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose

Remove Nusret Çolpan  5

We should probably list more non-Western visual artists (though he was based in Istanbul), but his influence seems mostly regional.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 20:53, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
2. Iostn (talk) 20:42, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
3. Makkool (talk) 18:58, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Silver Horn  5

Similar to above.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 20:53, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 18:58, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

"Niche sports"

There is a subsection here for "Niche Sports" that has things like Motocross, darts and bowling. What makes those niche rather than things like BASE jumping or Skeleton? Lee Vilenski 21:08, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Swap Władysław II the Exile for Mircea the Elder

The only two monarchs of Wallachia listed are Vlad the Impaler (Dracula) who is level 4 and Alexandru Ioan Cuza at level 5. Poland and Lithuania have 28 (14 in Post-classical (500–1500) and 14 in Early modern (1500–1800)). Mircea's article could be expanded a lot from Romanian Misplaced Pages, an example of a detail not included in the English version is that he was featured on comparative coins in 2011. Basically he ruled Wallachia at its peak, had conflicts with the Ottomans and has a lasting legacy as can be seen by the film Mircea (film). He ruled a lot longer than Władysław and has more language links.

Support

1. As nominator. Sahaib (talk) 23:03, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose

Remove Lydia Mendoza  5

Too much of a cult artist, I am afraid. I don't think she would be considered among the 100 most vital Spanish-language musicians, less so among the 40-50 we list.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 20:53, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 13:22, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Mary Oliver

Another add to writers for a change. She is arguably one of the most famous contemporary American poets.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 14:17, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Swap Edmund Ironside for Oswald of Northumbria

The only Anglo-Saxon monarchs listed prior to Æthelstan (considered the first King of England) are Offa of Mercia, Alfred the Great (vital 4) and Edward the Elder. There is no monarch of Northumbria listed which is why I suggest adding Oswald of Northumbria as he brought Bernicia and Deira together and promoted Christianity in the region. He was also Bretwalda which basically meant that he was the most powerful Anglo-Saxon monarch at the time and a cult developed around him in the Middle Ages, there is even a place in Slovenia named after him (Ožbalt). Edmund Ironside has not left as big of an impact or legacy as he briefly ruled as King of the English prior to Cnut, other short reigning monarchs not listed include Edward V and Francis II of France.

Support

1. As nom. Sahaib (talk) 15:59, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose

1. A much less important king. A meaningless exchange.--109.81.90.210 (talk) 18:05, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Discuss

@109.81.90.210: can you please expand on your response. What do you think makes Edmund Ironside vital? Another option could be Edwin of Northumbria. Sahaib (talk) 18:45, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

for example interwiki? 55:28? Does this score mean nothing? Or was this dominance caused by King Edmund's teenage fan club, which created articles for him on 40 Wikipedias with the help of Google Translate? 109.81.90.51 (talk) 13:20, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

The interwiki links are just the result of him being king of England, which doesn't automatically make a person vital, the same way not every Emperor of Russia is listed (Paul I of Russia) or every King of Portugal (Afonso VI of Portugal), or every Emperor of Japan (Emperor Go-Momozono), etc. Sahaib (talk) 13:48, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Remove Bob Lilly  5

Some people want to cut down on the number of NFL players listed, so I figured I would help get it started. Looking through the NFL players we currently have listed, this guy seems like one of the least vital ones. He isn't widely considered one of the best at his position, and he doesn't hold any major records, so all he really has going for him is being quite good at the sport, which simply isn't enough.

Support

1. As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 18:24, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
2. I'm some people. Support. GeogSage 18:33, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
3. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 20:53, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
4. Sure, deferring to nom on this one. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 20:37, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Remove Dodi Fayed

His film production career was quite short. His father Mohamed Al-Fayed  5, uncle Adnan Khashoggi  5 and cousin Jamal Khashoggi  5 are already listed.

Support

1. As nom. Sahaib (talk) 07:18, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
2. Support, I suspect he was primarily added for his association with Princess Diana. Never realized he was connected to the Khashoggi family though. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 20:37, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Add Johnny Miller (aviator)

I don't know much about aviation, so I stumbled upon this page and am not sure whether this guy belongs. I will nominate him.

Support

1. as nom-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 20:08, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Looking through the category , I see a lot of people. I Don't think he is particuarlly noteworthy compared to everyone on that list. Take it up a level to and I think he becomes a bit lost in the croud rather then standing out. GeogSage 20:52, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

Neutral

Discussion

Add Devika Rani

I don't especially prioritize the Entertainers section, but the article describes her as "Widely acknowledged as the First Lady of Indian cinema".

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 03:13, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
2. Iostn (talk) 20:42, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Léon Blum

Three-time PM of France. He was the first Socialist to have this post, and implemented several social and economic reforms. Viewed as an important figure towards the end of the Third Republic and WW2.

Support

1. As nominator. To politicians. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 03:13, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
2. Per nom Iostn (talk) 20:42, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
3. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 03:57, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Swap Bae Yong-joon for Lee Jung-jae

This isn't WP:RECENTISM as they are both the same age with Lee starting his career slightly earlier. Lee has 12 more language links, more pageviews, and more awards (see List of awards and nominations received by Lee Jung-jae). He could also go in the film section but TV is probably where he has the most cultural impact.

Support

1. As nominator. Sahaib (talk) 06:48, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
2. Support add, neutral on removal (note that Winter Sonata  5 is VA) Iostn (talk) 20:42, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
3. Same as lostn. For Lee Jung-jae, I can see a recentism argument being made against him here since it seems like he only became a superstar after Squid Game. However, the fact that he became famous in the West as a purely Korean-language actor (this has since changed) is a VA5-worthy accomplishment in and of itself. I could also be completely biased since I'm fresh off watching Squid Game Season 2. Aurangzebra (talk) 08:54, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Robert Fico

To Central Europe section. Longest serving prime minister of Slovakia. Here's an excerpt from the article "In March 2018, owing to the political crisis following the murder of Ján Kuciak, Fico delivered his resignation to Kiska...During the 2023 parliamentary election, Fico vowed to end military support for Slovakia's neighbor Ukraine, which was being invaded by Russia. He...began his fourth term as prime minister on 25 October. Fico's government has stopped military aid to Ukraine, moved to take greater control of the media, and abolished the Special Prosecutor's Office that dealt with corruption. These moves sparked mass protests. On 15 May 2024, Fico was hospitalized after an attempted assassination."

Support

1. As nominator. Sahaib (talk) 15:38, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
2. Iostn (talk) 20:42, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
3. Important leader. Kevinishere15 (talk) 03:10, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Not every mafia boss from Eastern Europe has to be on the Vital 5 list--109.81.90.210 (talk) 18:00, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Discuss

Add Milo Đukanović

Vital Montenegrin politician due to him being prime minister (1991–1998, 2003–2006, 2008–2010, 2012–2016) and president (1998–2002, 2018–2023).

Support

1. As nominator. Sahaib (talk) 20:58, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Move Ken Kutaragi  5

So this is rather an interesting/complicated case, he is currently listed under "video game designers", but he isn't technically responsible for design of video games themselves, rather he is most well-known for his technological work on developing the PlayStation, the system rather than the games themselves. He also became the chair/CEO of Sony Computer Entertainment and is currently president of another company, meaning he could be listed under businessmen. Even under Misplaced Pages:Vital articles/Level/5/People/Scientists, inventors, and mathematicians, there are two different subsections he could fit under, "Inventors and engineers" or "Computer scientists and programmers". Iostn (talk) 21:20, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

Move to Inventors and engineers

Move to Computer scientists and programmers

Move to Businesspeople

Keep under Video game designers

Add Yi-Fu Tuan

Yi-Fu Tuan is a Chinese-American geographer who is considered one of the key figures in Human geography  4. He is highly notable within the discipline, essential to the covering of other topics within Geography  2, and while he was an American professor, he was born in China so this inclusion may help to reduce our western bias.

Support

1. As nom. GeogSage 00:49, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

GeogSage 00:49, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

Remove Dave Tarras  5

I don't think klezmer deserves any specific artist representation but I'll ignore Naftule Brandwein  5 for now since he at least has 9 interwikis. Tarras has 3. He had some moderate success as a klezmer musician back when that was a popular genre of music but none of his works have Misplaced Pages articles and it seems like his only legacy was being a mentor to musicians during the supposed klezmer revival of the '70s and '80s. This revival doesn't have its own Misplaced Pages article and none of the musicians mentioned in the Klezmer  5 article from this revival period have more than 3 interwikis. When I assess world music artists (though it's worth noting this guy is American) for vitality, I like to be fair and take the musical genre in context of the culture it was meant for (after all, we list 36 Country music  4 musicians when that is distinctly an American genre of music). However, Klezmer  5 itself is low-importance on Wikiproject Judaism and mid-importance on Wikiproject Jewish Culture. Besides the brief revival, klezmer isn't a musical tradition that has stood the test of time, even in Jewish cultures.

Support

1. As nom Aurangzebra (talk) 01:27, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
2. Does not seem vital. QuicoleJR (talk) 22:41, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Swap Jerry Brown  5 for Madeleine Albright

Both are from the Democratic Party. But Brown is only a local figure (governor), Albright has influenced global politics. Moreover, she is the first woman in history to hold the position of Secretary of State of the United States of America. She was in office for four years, during the period of NATO expansion to include Eastern European states (a step that Putin now cites as one of the causes of the war in Ukraine) and during the American military intervention in Yugoslavia. Few American secretaries of state influenced post-war Europe as much as she did. (Interwikis: 40:81).

Support

1. --109.81.90.156 (talk) 16:19, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Probably should have both TBH. Referring to a guy who was governor of a GYNORMOUS state (35+ million people) for SIXTEEN YEARS as "only a local figure" is misleading. _pbp 16:33, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
2. Like I said last time, he passed several important bills, ran for president twice, and served four terms in office (the typical limit is two). I support adding Albright per nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 22:39, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
3. There is many first women foreign ministers such as Ana Pauker, Benita Ferrero-Waldner, Kang Kyung-wha, Margaret Beckett, Patricia Espinosa, Sushma Swaraj, etc. Sahaib (talk) 15:53, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Neutral

Discuss

1. I remember this debate Wikipedia_talk:Vital_articles/Level/5/People/Archive_1#Remove_Jerry_Brown closed December 2023. DId we remove Albright back then. I don't see the discussion, but feel like I vote on her previously.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 16:57, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

   @TonyTheTiger: As far as I can tell from searching the archives of VA5 and its subpages, Madeline Albright has not previously been discussed. _pbp 17:06, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

   Not ready to vote on this one.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 20:14, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

2. As far as I can tell, Brown seems to be the only person listed specifically for being a governor. (Yes he ran for president but didn't get very far in the primary, so I don't think he's listed for that reason). Kevinishere15 (talk) 03:15, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
3. I see that the proposal is not doing well, so I will try to reconsider and analyze it. My basic question was: which three women are the most important in American political history? Answer: Kamala Harris (first female vice president in history), Madelaine Albright (first female secretary of state), and - probably - Hillary Clinton (second female secretary of state + first lady and first female presidential candidate for either of the two major parties). When I looked at the category Politicians and leaders/Contemporary (1945–present)/North America/United States/Other, I noticed that Albright was the only one not on the list. So I decided to nominate her. However, I took into account that the Politicians and leaders category was full (I only noticed afterwards that there were five names missing from the 2400 quota, strictly speaking). So I thought it inappropriate to just suggest adding a new name, but I thought it would be better to suggest a replacement for a name from the list. In the Other subcategory, there are now 30 names from which I had to choose. Since Albright is a Democrat and I didn't want to stir up passions (which are far from my European roots, but I suppose that for an American the ratio of Republicans to Democrats on the list is important), I first eliminated all the Republicans from the possible replacement candidates (Dick Cheney, Thomas E. Dewey, John Foster Dulles, Newt Gingrich, Barry Goldwater, Henry Kissinger, John McCain, Joseph McCarthy, Mitch McConnell, Robert McNamara, Ross Perot, Nelson Rockefeller, Mitt Romney, Donald Rumsfeld, Strom Thurmond). That left me with 15 candidates. I also didn't want to replace with a non-partisan, so George F. Kennan was eliminated. That left 14 names. It also seemed inappropriate to replace a woman with a woman, since there are few women on the list. Thus, Shirley Chisholm, Hillary Clinton, Kamala Harris, Michelle Obama and Nancy Pelosi were out of the game. That leaves 9 members of the Democratic Party: Jerry Brown, James F. Byrnes, Richard J. Daley, Al Gore, Daniel Inouye, Robert F. Kennedy, Walter Mondale, Bernie Sanders, George Wallace. Al Gore and Walter Mondale were vice presidents, James F. Byrnes was secretary of state (in the crucial post-war period when the Iron Curtain was falling). So I eliminated these three and I was left with 6 names. I did not give up on my efforts to objectify and ranked these 6 names according to the interwiki criterion: Bernie Sanders (118), Robert F. Kennedy (70), Jerry Brown (40), George Wallace (39), Daniel Inouye (35), Richard J. Daley (10). The first two have a clear lead (I will leave out why), so I eliminated them as well. I was left with four names that I had convinced myself, through an analysis of their biographies, that were local figures (yes, I insist on that term). I decided to try to replace all four of these names with names that I consider more significant. But at this point, however, I guess I was not being very tactical. I simply took the first name in the group, feeling that none of the four remaining politicians could compete with Albright. Now I see that I should have been more tactical and suggested the obviously weakest link, namely Richard J. Daley. Perhaps, I hope, I would not have encountered such resistance. Although I still think that all four names are not of global importance, I now see two possible solutions. 1) Replace the "Swap Brown for Albright" vote with the "Swap Daley for Albright" vote. 2) Take advantage of the fact that the quota of politicians is not yet fully filled and change this vote to a simple "Add Albright". The advantage of the second option, if I understand the procedural rules here correctly, is that a new vote would not have to be held and voters would simply state when voting: "I am for Albright, not for deleting Brown." And the vote for Albright should still be valid, right? Is that correct? (Finally, please excuse my Central European English)--109.81.90.210 (talk) 14:37, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

   One thing I would question here is considering Albright more influential than Nancy Pelosi, the first female Speaker of the House. On what rationale do you consider Albright to be more influential? Albright wasn't head of one of the branches of government in the way Pelosi was. And, whereas Albright may seem more influential in Central Europe, Pelosi is clearly more influential in the United States.

   I know you're holding on to the term "local" but you're not using it in an a way a speaker of American English would. It appears you are using "local" as an antonym of "national" or "international". In American English, "local" generally means at the level of a city or its immediate surrounding areas. As such, it may be fair to categorize Daley (most notable for being the mayor of a large city) as a "local" figure, but you would not classify a governor, such as Jerry Brown or George Wallace, in that manner, nor would you classify a U.S. Senator such as Inouye that way. _pbp 20:16, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

   In most political systems, the speaker of the upper house of parliament formally (ceremonially) has more weight than the speaker of the lower house. But this is only important in case they shake hands with the British Queen. Everyone knows that in reality it is different. And likewise: formally in most political systems, the speaker of the lower house (or unicameral parliament) is more important than the prime minister. But the reality is different. The prime minister is of course a heavier caliber. And even 5-6 ministers certainly have much more power and influence, especially in great powers, where, for example, the army or foreign policy really mean something and influence the whole world. Do you know who is the speaker of the Russian parliament today? Vyacheslav Volodin (35 interwiki). Have you ever heard that name? And do you know who is the Russian Foreign Minister? Sergey Lavrov (78 interwiki). In reality, everyone knows that Lavrov is a more important figure than Volodin from a global perspective. Because Russia is a great power and its foreign policy is important. And even if it weren't a superpower, the hierarchy would be clear: Do you know who was the speaker of the Czech Parliament in 2010-2013? His name was Miloslav Vlček. Do you know how many interwikis he has? 6. At the same time, Karel Schwarzenberg was the Czech Foreign Minister. Number of interwikis? 32. The United States has been a global superpower since 1945. Its president, vice president, secretary of state and defense minister shape the world. The US secretary of state is the most important foreign minister in the world. If a global ranking of the most powerful political positions on the planet were to be made, where would he be? He would probably be in the TOP 10.

   As for the term "local", it is really a purely linguistic problem. Or maybe it's my ineptitude. But by the way, there are other federations in the world. Russia is also a federation. Its Sakha Republic is seven times larger than California. But would you include its leader Aysen Nikolayev in the list of the 15,000 most important figures in human history? Or Mikhail Nikolayev, who was the leader for 11 years? By the way, the first one has 16 interwikis, the second one 11. But that doesn't matter. The whole discussion about whether to include one of the most important women in history in a list that includes Muireadhach Albanach Ó Dálaigh (interwiki count: 1), Calvin Hooker Goddard (interwiki count: 1), Albert S. Osborn (interwiki count: 1), Frances Mary Richardson Currer (interwiki count: 1), etc., is comical, bizarre and exhausting. 109.81.90.31 (talk) 07:02, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Religious figure proposals

Add Paul Tillich

"was one of the most influential theologians of the twentieth century". Not sure if he should be in philosophers instead. I'm hoping we could one day have a clear separate section for theologians in the Social scientists page, but that will be for the future. I'm not exactly looking forward to separating them out from the philosophers one by one.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 19:23, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Add Philipp Spener

Founder of Pietism, which I'll be also proposing later. Pietism was highly influential to Protestantism, as part of the Lutheranism in Central and Northern Europe and as influence to other Christian denominations like Methodism and Anababtism.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 19:23, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Add Carlos Castaneda

American anthropoligist and best-selling writer, and an highly influential figure in the new age movement by promoting neoshamanism.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 19:23, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Italian singers

I would like to propose to add these singers to the "Italian" subsection of "Non-English language popular music". (Here: Misplaced Pages:Vital articles/Level/5/People/Artists, musicians, and composers.)

They are really "the very top of their trade". They all appear on the list here: List of estimated best-selling Italian music artists.

Update. Adriano Celentano, Toto Cutugno and Albano Carrisi were removed in this unexplained edit: . Umberto Tozzi was unexplainably swapped for some unknown people in this edit: .

--Moscow Connection (talk) 03:33, 14 January 2025 (UTC), updated at 04:15, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Add Adriano Celentano

A very famous Italian singer and actor. I wonder why he is not on the list, should have been a top choice.

Support

1. As nom. Moscow Connection (talk) 03:33, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
2. Per nom. Makkool (talk) 20:10, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
3. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 20:39, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Add Toto Cutugno

A very famous Italian singer and songwriter for other artists. I wonder why he is not on the list, should have been a top choice.

Support

1. As nom. Moscow Connection (talk) 03:33, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
2. Per nom. Makkool (talk) 20:10, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
3. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 20:39, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Add Gianni Morandi

A very famous Italian singer. I wonder why he is not on the list.

Support

1. As nom. Moscow Connection (talk) 03:33, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
2. Per nom. Makkool (talk) 20:10, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Low-importance on Wikiproject Italy and I don't think we want to be adding any more musicians than we absolutely should since this is an area that's already oversubscribed. Aurangzebra (talk) 20:39, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Neutral

Discuss

Add Umberto Tozzi

A very famous Italian singer-songwriter. I think he is more relevant to the English-speaking community than most of the current list.

Support

1. As nom. Moscow Connection (talk) 03:33, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
2. Per nom. Makkool (talk) 20:10, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Low-importance on Wikiproject Italy and I don't think we want to be adding any more musicians than we absolutely should since this is an area that's already oversubscribed. Aurangzebra (talk) 20:39, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Neutral

Discuss

Add Albano Carrisi

A very famous Italian singer and songwriter.

Support

1. As nom. Moscow Connection (talk) 04:15, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
2. Per nom. Makkool (talk) 20:10, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
3. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 20:39, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Add August Ferdinand Möbius

German mathematician renowned for his contributions to geometry and topology. His work laid the groundwork for modern algebraic geometry.

Support

1. As nom. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 19:45, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Richard Serra

I’m not knowledgeable enough to pick and choose, but the sculptors section is dominated by pre-modern Greeks and Italians, some of whom had narrow contributions. Serra was one of the most widely known and respected sculptors of the 20th century.

Support

1. As nom. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 19:45, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
2. J947 ‡ 07:48, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Margaret Mahy

Margaret Mahy was an acclaimed children's author from New Zealand. She won several major awards and written over 100 books. Currently we don't list any children's authors from NZ, so she should fit well to the list.

Support

1. As nom. Makkool (talk) 20:33, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Erroneous closure: reopen or leave it be?

Hi everyone, it looks like we had a goof-up with this proposal: Misplaced Pages talk:Vital articles/Level/5/People/Archive 11#Rebels, revolutionaries and activists changes.

I closed them all early at a unanimous 5-0, but it turns out that one vote in each was an accidental duplicate. So the proper vote count should have been at 4-0, and they only stayed open for 7 days instead of the normal 14. Nobody found the issue in the 3 days before it was archived either, but the proposer Iostn recently caught the mistake.

So the only real question is what we do next. If anyone feels strongly about reopening the proposals, we can revert the list changes and pull them back out of the archives. As the closer, I can do it if nobody else gets around to it first; I just can't promise getting it done before Sunday.

That said, if nobody feels too upset about it, we can just leave the changes as is. These were to fill in a still significantly under-quota section, and the correct tally was a unanimous 4-0, so I feel like we can put that option out there this time. Obviously though, if anyone wants to reopen them to vote or comment, we will. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 04:07, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

To solve this issue, I vote yes on all of these so it is now 5-0. I didn't vote on any of those proposals before. Aurangzebra (talk) 04:23, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

You, sir or ma'am... are a mensch and exactly the sort of Gordian knot-cutter this internet needs. Seriously though, thanks for being proactive and helping us resolve this fairly. -- Zar2gar1 (talk) 16:32, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Thanks. I caused the problem and am glad it could be resolved. GeogSage 21:33, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Rebels, revolutionaries and activists changes pt 2

Remove Nancy Brinker  5

Cancer fundraiser and former government official, for some reason Susan G. Komen for the Cure used to be listed as well but I don't really see any compelling reason for either

Support

1. Nom Iostn (talk) 18:48, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
2. _pbp 13:08, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Alex Pacheco (activist)  5

We already list Ingrid Newkirk  5 and he seems to be the less vital of the two. We already list People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals  5

Support

1. Nom Iostn (talk) 18:48, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
2. Yeah, definitely gotta go. American activists are bloated _pbp 13:04, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove George Ripley (transcendentalist)  5

Largely a footnote in the history of utopian socialist communities

Support

1. Nom Iostn (talk) 18:48, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Move Brewster Kahle  5 to Misplaced Pages:Vital_articles/Level/5/People/Philosophers,_historians,_political_and_social_scientists#Library_science_and_curators

This was discussed a while back with no consensus due to disagreement on what to do with it, but at the very least I think we can agree he's only very tangentially known for activism, insofar that it relates to issues tied to digital preservation.

Support

1. Nom Iostn (talk) 18:48, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
2. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 06:04, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Sylvia Rivera

This may be controversial since the page was already removed (when the section was over quota), but that is no longer the case and the main rationale was overlap with Marsha P. Johnson  5 but I'm not convinced there's that much of a gap in overall vitality between the two, especially when we list for ex. both Alex Pacheco (activist)  5 and Ingrid Newkirk  5, who both have less interwikis and pageviews than both of the others. Sylvia Rivera is also on WikiProject LGBTQ's core topics for people, along with only 19 others (including Johnson)

Support

1. Nom Iostn (talk) 18:48, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose

1. American activists is bloated. Pacheco probably gotta go too _pbp 01:32, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

   Then vote for it? (or one of the several other US activists I proposed above) Iostn (talk) 12:24, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Discuss

Add Zumbi

Perhaps the most famous anti-slavery rebel in Brazil

Support

1. Nom Iostn (talk) 18:48, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Kōtoku Shūsui

Among the forebears of Japanese anti-state leftism

Support

1. Nom Iostn (talk) 18:48, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Jose Maria Sison

Filipino rebel leader for over 50 years

Support

1. Nom Iostn (talk) 18:48, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Iqbal Masih

Widely commemorated child activist

Support

1. Nom Iostn (talk) 18:48, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Leila Khaled

Not sure how we don't already have any Palestinian figures on here

Support

1. Nom Iostn (talk) 18:48, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Mordechai Vanunu

In the tradition of Daniel Ellsberg  5, Chelsea Manning  5, etc

Support

1. Nom Iostn (talk) 18:48, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Maryam Rajavi

Leader of the People's Mojahedin Organization of Iran, one of the longest running armed groups attempting to overthrow the Iranian government

Support

1. Nom Iostn (talk) 18:48, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Nimr al-Nimr

Saudi sheikh and opposition leader, whose execution saw international condemnation

Support

1. Nom Iostn (talk) 18:48, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Sportspeople removals

There is currently a proposal to reduce the number of sportspeople from our current 1200. I lean towards support, but I made this to get a better picture of this proposal. The proposed removals have three or less interwikis, are not the only people in their sport, and it took only a few minutes of scrolling, so I am confident we could come up with similar batches.

• Wayne Carey  5
• Angela Downey  5
• Carlos Gracida  5
• Liz Ellis  5
• Clive Churchill  5
• Don Carter (bowler)  5
• Graeme Langlands  5
• Eddie Feigner  5
• Bob Fulton  5
• Shaun Murray  5

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 21:14, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
2. _pbp 21:22, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
3. Support. GeogSage 21:32, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
4. Sahaib (talk) 22:34, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
5. Support all. Kevinishere15 (talk) 03:04, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

More GuzzyG cleanup...crowded up the vital list with tons and tons of Australians _pbp 21:22, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Sportspeople removals. Part 2

Four or fewer interwikis. Same criteria as above.

• Cecil Smith (polo)  5"
• Glenn Howard  5
• Haydn Bunton Sr.  5
• Billy Morgan (Gaelic footballer)  5
• Julián Retegi  5
• Beau Kittredge  5
• John Force  5
• Bill Klem  5
• Ivo Crapp  5
• Dave Brown (rugby league, born 1913)  5

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 03:00, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
2. Strong support removing everyone except Bunton, weak oppose removing him, "he was regarded by some historians and observers of Australian rules as its greatest-ever player". Kevinishere15 (talk) 03:07, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
3. Support. GeogSage 03:11, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
4. Support  Carlwev  03:30, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
5. Support Sahaib (talk) 13:06, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Kōhei Uchimura

One of the most internationally decorated male gymnasts of all time with an argument for best ever in his sport. 7 Olympic medals (3 gold) and 21 World Championships medals (10 gold).

Support

1. As nominator. GauchoDude (talk) 17:04, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
2. Support per above. Max Whitlock could also probably be added. Sahaib (talk) 17:26, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Sophie, Duchess of Hohenberg

The Miscellaneous category is still under the limit. I propose Sophie, Duchess of Hohenberg to a subcategory Victims. Wife of Archduke Franz Ferdinand of Austria, shot during the Sarajevo assassination along with the Archduke. (47 iw)

Support

1. --109.81.95.217 (talk) 18:59, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose

1. There is others of victims with more or the same amount of language links that are not listed such as:

• Edward V (64) - recently removed (though Princes in the Tower is listed)
• Grand Duchess Anastasia Nikolaevna of Russia (60)
• Zoran Đinđić (55)
• George Floyd (50) - smradlavá vopice, kterou správně vodkráglovali
• Alexei Nikolaevich, Tsarevich of Russia (47)
• Grand Duchess Maria Nikolaevna of Russia (47)
• Paweł Adamowicz (47)

Some other people I found with less language links who could potentially be listed include:

• James Stewart, 1st Earl of Moray - first head of government to be assassinated with a firearm
• Sir Henry Wilson, 1st Baronet - senior British army officer
• Alexander I of Serbia - King of Serbia
• Pierre Laporte - Canadian politician killed during the October Crisis
• Carlos Prats - Chilean army officer
• Hanns Martin Schleyer - German business magnate

Sahaib (talk) 20:21, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Discuss

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• WikiProject Vital Articles pages
• American aviation pioneers
• Aviation pioneers