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A Sincere Attempt

I have posted a complaint about this topic and edited the page to no avail. I would like to try to explain here what I think is a very serious problem with this page, primarily in the intro, but pervasive throughout the rest. Regardless of whatever moral, philosophical, legal, or historical baggage capitalism carries, it is simply a method of organizing economic production. It is characterized principally by the private ownership of the means of production, and the determination of production in free markets. Accordingly, economic production (i.e., how much of what to produce at what prices) is determined by private individuals making (largely) unrestricted choices. What do you imagine the alternatives to be? Obviously, there is socialism and/or communism, in which a central government authority organizes economic production, but I believe you would be hard pressed to come up with another method of organizing production. Someone suggested on this page that “mercantilism” is an alternative, but this is nonsense. The author suggested that mercantilism “says to liberate property but restrict trade for the short-term good of the rulers.” This refers to economic policy, not economic production. Likewise, the section of the page entitled “How Capitalism Works” is severely misguided, because it describes a modern example of how, in OUR legal and cultural constuction, one would operate in business. It reaveals only how a modern business in our legal system would be founded, and nothing about capitalsim as an economic system. Likewise, the reference to Europe in the 16th century is sloppy and biased. If this was an introduction to democracy, we would surely not begin by saying that it was institutionalized in ancient Greece. First and foremost, democracy is a method of government, and the times and places we associate with it should not be in the introduction. Likewise, 16th century Europe has no place in the capitalism introduction, because it tells us nothing about capitalism as a system. What, I challenge you, was the system of economic production in Europe in the 15th century? The lack of modern style corporations and shareholders does not imply a lack of capitalism, because those things are legal constructions that are not necessary to conduct economic production through private ownership and decision making. It would be appropriate to have an article about modern, cultural interpretations of capitalism, one about the shortcomings of capitalism (of which there are many), one about industrialization in Europe, etc., but to jumble the article on capitalism with modern renditions of it (especially in the intro) is not precise and not neutral. China, for example, has in recent decades moved to the private ownership of capital and private determination of production, though it is still considered politically communist. You would surely not describe China as a capitalist country, because it does not conform to the cultural understanding we have of capitalism. Seriously, think about the alternatives to capitalism, that is, the alternatives to the private determination of production. If you come up with any (real or theoretical) other than communism, please do let me know, I would be interested. I would like to edit this page, but I'm sure it will be reverted, so I am bringing it up here, becuase I think that an honest evaluation will lead us to see that, among other things, the refence to Europe is not neutral. Mgw

Hunter-gatherers and Feudalism are examples of alternatives. Your interpretation of capitalism is not shared by many other economists and philosophers. Most agree that the economic system that arose in Europe was different from the earlier feudal system and have given this system the name capitalism. Ultramarine 23:38, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Firstly, hunter-gatherers would not be considered by many to be engaged in economic production. They are producing food for themselves, but how exactly would a modern western economy operate as a hunter-gatherer economy? This is not an alternative to capitalism. Secondly, Feudalism involved complicated legal arrangements among individuals who were still free to produce as they saw fit, though they were subject to the arrangements they made. Neither of these are alternatives economic systems; they are different cultural and political manifestations. Thirdly, as an economic system, most economists would agree that capitalism is chiefly characterized by private ownership of the means of production (capital) and the ability of private individuals to determine production. If philosophers do not generally agree on this, there should be an article about philosophical interpretations of capitalism, since it is first and foremost and economic system. The cultural and legal aspects of capitalism that arose in Europe were new, but they were not the invention of a new economic system. I still think these are not alternatives.

Many economists and philosophers disagree with you. And the article is not supposed to represent our opinion or original reserarch. Ultramarine 00:51, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I'm with you. The intro is pathetic. Feel free to edit it. Don't hestitate because you think it will be reverted. I'll be right there working to fix the shoddy thing. And don't fall for that guy's "original research" crap. RJII 01:02, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Ultramarine: Many people would disagree about many things, and you have not responded to my points. Firstly, academic economists rarely, if ever, use the word capitalism. You will not find the term in economics textbooks, nor is it frequenty discussed in professional literature. Try it out, search for capitalism on JSTOR (www.jstor.org) and see how many hits you get from the hundreds of thousands of economics articles on that site. You'll find a few, but the overwhelming majority will be from political, historical, sociological, or philosophical journals. I'm not sure what scienific study you conducted to discover the consensus among economists, but if you are going to state supposed facts like "many economists would disagree with you", you should cite a survey or a broad, obvious theme in economic literature. Secondly, and again, philosophy is not the basis for this article, that should be a separate one. I made many points, and you didn't respond to any of them, you simply repeated your sinlge one.

1) Many economists use much more complex definitions than your very simple one. See for example Index of Economic Freedom, used in numerous peer-reviewed articles . Or this article by the very influential economist de Soto . Marx and his followers certainly consider capitalism to be a different economic system from feudalism. 2) Why is philosophy, sociology or history less important? Rand was one of the most influential theorists during the last century, which should her opinion be censored from the main article? 3) Primitivism consider hunter-gatherers to be an alternative to capitalism. Other variants of left-anarchism think there are many other alternatives to capitalism, many of them not communistic. 4) Finally, do you have an external source that supports your theory of capitalism and how it should be presented? Ultramarine 12:39, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Ultramarine is right. Mqw does not recognize that his/her view of capitalism is not the only view. I am sure Mqw thinks it is an "objective" description of capitalism, but that belief does not make it an objective description of capitalism. Marx too thought his definition of capitalism is objective. The body of the article must provide all of these different views. Period. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:37, 5 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Ultramarine: "Why insist on a definition when there is no consensus?" <--What do mean by this when you deleted the definition I provided but keep the first definition? If you are against definitions being there then why not delete that one as well? RJII 14:52, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The first bullet point is not a defintion, just a description of economic practices. Ultramarine 14:54, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

What are you talking about? The intro says that capitalism "refers to one or more of the following" bullets. The first bullet says "a system consisting of a set of economic practices involving..." I'm sorry to have to state something to you that is so obvious, but that constitutes a definition. Now, another prevalent definition should be supplied as an alterative to the first. Not everyone agrees that capitalism is a system that involves a free market. RJII 15:05, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Changed wording somehat. Again, there are dozens of theories and definitions, with no consensus on which are the most important or on how they should be sorted. Ultramarine 15:16, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

How does your change in wording make it not a definition? The fact is, it is a definition. All you've done is added the assertion that capitalism as defined in the sentence has been institutionalized or implemented. Again, there is a significant amount of people who disagree that capitalism is a set of practices that involves a free market. RJII 15:27, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Cite your sources on those who disagree.

If you you insist, all theories and definitions should be mentioned in the introdcution. Not just those two you seem to prefer. Ultramarine 15:31, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

One source is the Webster Dictionary of the English Language: "Capitalism is an economic system in which the means of production, distribution and exchange are privately owned and operated for profit." Now, before you go off saying that dictionaries aren't relevant, they certainly are. Dictionaries are authorities on how people typically use words. This definition exists precisely because there is not universal agreement that capitalism is a system that involves a free market (many think that capitalism involves exploitation...hardly a free market when a free market is voluntary interaction), however there is universal agreement that capitalism is a system that involves private ownership. See? RJII 15:40, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

MW's definiiont is " an economic system characterized by private or corporate ownership of capital goods, by investments that are determined by private decision, and by prices, production, and the distribution of goods that are determined mainly by competition in a free market". There dozens other definiionts by other dictionaries, economists, philosphers, historians and so on. Ultramarine 15:46, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Exactly. You know this, yet you are insisting that only definition of capitalism, as an econmic system, that is in the intro is the one that says capitalism involves a free market. If the intro says there are alternate definitions then at least provide one alternative to how capitalism as an economic system is defined. RJII 15:52, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The into now has a desription that involves much more, including property rights. But we can add private ownership and profit to the desription. If you insist on definitions, there should either be a listing of all in the introudction or on a separate page. Ultramarine 15:56, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Why even mention that there are competing definitions if you only provide one of capitalism, as an economic system, in the intro? If you're only going to provide one then it had better be one that "everyone" agrees with. If you can work in that some definitions involve a free market and that some don't into a single definition, then go for it. But just adding "private ownership and profit" to the definition won't cut it, because it would still say that capitalism involves a free market. RJII 16:02, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

How about this descriptiption? I think few would disagree with such a description.

• a set of economic practices, most of which became institutionalized in Europe between the 16th and 19th centuries, especially involving the right of individuals and groups of individuals acting as "legal persons" (or corporations) to own and trade private property, especially capital goods such as land and labor, in a free market, for profit, and relying on the protection by the state of private property rights and the adjudication by the state of explicit and implicit contractual obligations rather than feudal obligations.

Ultramarine 16:12, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Many would disagree with that. Because, still, it asserts that capitalism involves a free market. Many think that exploitation and coercion is an essential practice in capitalism. This is antithetical to a free market --since a free market is about voluntary interaction. And, many say that capitalism is by definition essentially based in a free market. This is a significant divide in conceptions of capitalism. Both of these views need to be represented, whether in one definition or two. I think the easiest way is to provide an alternate definition: "Capitalism is an economic system in which the means of production, distribution and exchange are privately owned and operated for profit" That's one statement that everybody can agree on. And leave the first definition for those that insist that capitalism involves a free market (the most common definition). RJII 16:58, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Cite your sources please. (MW includes free market). Ultramarine 17:01, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I already did above. But again for you, Webster Dictionary of the English Language: "Capitalism is an economic system in which the means of production, distribution and exchange are privately owned and operated for profit." RJII 17:07, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Acrually, MW collegiate dictionary 11th Edition "an economic system characterized by private or corporate ownership of capital goods, by investments that are determined by private decision, and by prices, production, and the distribution of goods that are determined mainly by competition in a free market". But even your variant does not prohibit a free market so you must find a different source that does. The description now mentions a free market, private ownership, profit and property rights which should satisfy all. Ultramarine 17:12, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

It doesn't satisfy all, nor "should" it. Not everyone agrees that capitalism is based on voluntary interaction (a free market). One thing my "variant" is however, is a statement that "all" agree on --unlike the definition you're supporting. You're neglecting and censoring a pretty common definition of capitalism (one that makes no reference to how goods and services are distributed or the nature of economic decisions), apparently to push your own POV. RJII 17:29, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Again cite your source that do not think a free market is part of capitalism. Your old quote do not prevent that. And as shown there are are other dictionaries that state this positively. Ultramarine 17:38, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Ok, again: Webster Dictionary of the English Language: "Capitalism is an economic system in which the means of production, distribution and exchange are privately owned and operated for profit." As far as this definition is concerned, capitalism has absolutely nothing to do with a free market. As long as capital is privately owned and operated for profit, it's capitalism. A definition that says capitalism involves private ownership AS WELL AS a free market is a definition that is not compatible with that popular one. The M-W includes the WDOTEL, but the WDOTEL does not extend to the M-W --it is incompatible. If business and government join forces (and override or prohibit individual voluntary decision -engage in coercion), then it is still capitalism according to WDOEFL and according to many. In this conception, capitalism does not involve a free market. They are two different definitions. You appear to be attempting to push your POV by only allowing the definition that says capitalism involves a free market. RJII 17:55, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

That's not bad, so perhaps now's the time to remove from the intro, on the basis that capitalism is an economic system and not a set of theories or beliefs, the "competing theories..." and "a belief in...." bullet points. Rd232 16:40, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Yes, let's do get rid of those ridiculous bullet points. RJII 16:58, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Listing of definions of Capitalism

I have created a new page, definitions of capitalism. There we have the space to quote the many different definitions of capitalism.

Ok, but that doesn't fix the problem with the intro. RJII 18:18, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I see little problems. What do you propose? That only your definition(s) should be in intro? Ultramarine 18:22, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Note also that the collegiate dictionary quote is more recent than your quote and is thus not a subset Ultramarine 18:23, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

You already know what I propose. Two definitions. One that defines capitalism as involving a free market, and another that satisfies those who define it has having nothing to do with a free market (this conception of prevalent enough that it needs to be taken care of). If it's not me there's going to be others that have this objection. Why not take care of it? It's easy enough. RJII 18:33, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

But this sorting is original research. Or do you actually have a source which supports this taxonomy of the defitions? Ultramarine 18:38, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

It's not "original research." This is not a matter of "original research." Looking up a definition is secondary research. The definition is common enough that it should be there along with the other common definition that you insist on being there. My reasoning may be my own, but my reasoning isn't going to be in there. Putting in another common definition of capitalism to supplement the first does not constitute "original research." How is it original research to put "my" definition in there, but not original research to put "your" definition in there? RJII 18:58, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

If your reasoning is without external sources then it is original research. You have a point about the description also being original reserach. However, it is not a definition and thus a far weaker statement and there seems to be a general consensus, something not true of the definitions. I propose that we try to agree on a common desription and leave the definitions to the new page. Alternatively, remove all descriptions and definitions from the introduction and simply state that there is no consensus on a definition and that the article will desribe various aspects of capitalism. Ultramarine 19:02, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

It's my opinion that capitalism, the economic system, should be defined/described on the intro. I provided an "external source" of another common definition of capitalism, therefore it is not original research (How many times does something have to be drilled into your head before you get it?). That conception is what I'd like to see reflected as an alternative definition/description. You are wrong to say there is a "general consensus" on the definition/description in the intro. Many people do not define, describe, or conceive of capitalism as involving a free market. You are plainly POV pushing. I find it contemptible. Moreoever, your claims of "original research" are obviously a smokescreen. You know damned well that providing a description of capitalism as referenced from external sources is not "original research." And, you know damned well that what I want to put in the intro is not "original research." I tire of your disingenousness. RJII 19:22, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

So how about removing all descriptions and definitions from the introduction? I see this as the only alternative if we cannot agree on a weak description. Ultramarine 19:27, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I've seen good articles with much longer intros, what's the problem?--Silverback 19:09, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I think the introduction is quite good now. But I see no reason and no need why just some of the many definitions should be included. Ultramarine 19:24, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I do not see any need to remove the current introduction -- it is not original research; it has been modified to address RJII's concerns; and aside from insisting on characterizing capitalism as a system, he hasn't specified any other objections. I do think that Ultramarine's new article on definitions is a very constructive idea; I have just added a few. I also put the word "competing" back in -- this isn't original research either, Sweezy, Brenner, and Dobb all discuss ways that different definitions compete. Good job, Ultramarine! Slrubenstein | Talk 23:11, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

RJII, where on earth do you get the idea that "most people" define capitalism in terms of private property? In any event, what purpose is served by adding another bullet point when private property is already mentioned, prominently, in the first bullet point? It's just redundant. Slrubenstein | Talk 23:21, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Read everything in the section called "A Sincere Attempt" above to understand the problem with that. By the way, I ever said "most people" but "many people." Read the above section please --particularly the bottom 2/3 of it. Also read everything in this section. RJII 00:22, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

RJII, anarcho-capitalism is mentioned in the introudction, be content. You are not going to get an introduction that says that anarcho-capitalism is the best variant of capitalism. If you insist, this will end as before. With a very short introduction with no mention of anarcho-capitalism at all. Ultramarine 00:39, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

What are you talking about? My intention is not on getting anarcho-capitalism represented --I even deleted the mention of it the first time you put it there. You're the one that put it back. My intention is making sure that a definition that is compatible with a marxist or similar conception of capitalism is there. It is POV to only present the pro-capitalist definition that says capitalism involves a free market. That definition is incompatible with the conception of capitalism that many have. An alternative definition must be presented if you are going to present that one. That alternative is one that says it is system where capital is privately owned, and has absolutely nothing to do with a "free market." You have not been out much if you're not aware that those who oppose capitalism have a different definition. If you think all this time I've been trying to get anarcho-capitalism in the article, then you need to lay off the bottle. Obviously you haven't been cognizant of anything I've been saying about all day. Go back and read everything in the section above and this section. Good grief. RJII 00:58, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Not a single Marxist has protested. The practices section is very compatible with the view of most Communists. Furthermore, there is no opposition between a free market and private ownership, you have shown no source that claimed this. That they do not mention this in the same sentance is not the same thing. Ultramarine 01:04, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I'm protesting. If you think that Marxists think that capitalism is a free market have you ever taken the time to read the Marxist Critique of Capitalism in this very article? Capitalism is not a free market to Marxists but an unfree one, rife with coercion and exploitation. A free market is one that has no coercion. To describe capitalism as a free market is so obviously POV to anyone who understands the critique of capitalism. Stop pushing your pro-capitalist POV. RJII 01:13, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Most marxists do not mind using the word "free market". Ultramarine 01:20, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Yes they do. RJII 01:44, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

They dislike the "free market". But they can use it in their critique. The word "free" is not a value judgement, as you seem to think, but refer to unchecked market forces. Ultramarine 01:56, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

A free market is one where there is no coercion influencing decisions in the marketplace. It's not that they dislike free-markets but that the conception of free-markets used by capitalists is not truly a free market since private property exists by coercion. RJII 02:00, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I still have no idea what RJII is talking about. Marxists do not define capitalism as a system based on private property. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:11, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

No surprise there. RJII 17:14, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

If you admit that Marxists do not define capitalism as a system based on private property, then why did you write, above that "My intention is making sure that a definition that is compatible with a marxist or similar conception of capitalism is there... That alternative is one that says it is system where capital is privately owned ..." Since Marxists do not define capitalism in terms of private ownership of capital, why do you keep talking about the need for a definition of capitalism in terms of private ownership of capital? What does this have to do with your "intention" to provide a definition "compatible" with Marxism? Slrubenstein | Talk 17:54, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I'm not admiting that Marxists don't define capitalism as private ownership of capital. I was saying that it's no surprise that you "have no idea what RJII is talking about." That's it. RJII 19:53, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Well, if you are not admitting that Marxists do not define capitalism as private ownership of capital, that just means that you have not done real research. On what basis, then, are you justifying your changes when you haven't done research? Slrubenstein | Talk 20:05, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

That flawed logic is why I'm not surprised that you don't understand what I say. I make myself clear. And, the last thing I want to do is get involved in a protracted discourse when the other person is oblivious to the meaning of anything I say. I've made my points. Read this talk page for more information. RJII 20:11, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

deleted "free market" from definition of capitalism

it's POV to say that capitalism as an economic system involves a free market. Many believe it involves coercion. Either NPOV this or ad another definition that doesn't describe capitalism as free market. RJII 01:06, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Those opposing a "free market" can still use this word, meaning that the market forces are unchecked which they see as bad. Ultramarine 01:28, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Capitalism can't be coercive and free market at the same time. A free-market by definition doesn't have coercion. That's why the common definition exists that says capitalism is "the private ownership of capital" or similar definitions. If you're going to say that capitalism involves a free market, then you should also allow another common definition or description that doesn't say that capitalism involves a free market. Allowing that common definition, with the introductory sentence saying that capitalism refers to "one or more of the following" should take care of any objection on the matter. "A system where capital is privately owned" should take care of it. Why should only your pro-capitalist "candy-coated" definition be there? If you insist on one definition/description then make it NPOV. RJII 01:57, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Here is an exmaple of critics of capitalism using the term "free market". Ultramarine 02:01, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Actually, how about enclosing free market in "free market" in the description, as in the article above. Ultramarine 02:31, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Still it would not be consistent with the basic Marxist definition of capitalism --the private ownership of the means of production. Why not just add that definition in there? If you have one then you need to put this one in also or you disenfranchise a significant segment of people who have a different conception of definition/description/conception of capitalism. What are you afraid of? People are going to see the truth about the exploitative nature of capitalism? RJII 03:10, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

You do not understand Marx's position or definition on capitalism. You have no citation as support for your statements regarding Marxism and seem mostly intent on trollng. Here is another recent Communist text that uses the words "free market", in a speech by Castro. Ultramarine 11:48, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

In Marx, a capitalist is someone who owns capital, and capitalism is the private ownership of capital. This is basic to anyone who has a clue about Marxism. So, if you are going to supply a definition in the intro that says capitalism involves a free market, then you had better supply the one that says it is the private ownership of capital without including the term "free market" in the description. For every criticism of capitalism that assumes it involves a free market there are a hundred others that do not assume that and do not assert in their descriptions of capitalism that it is a free market. As far as Castro, he's using "free market" to mean laissez-faire. There is a difference. That's an improper usage. An economy can be laissez-faire and at the same time an un-free market. Also, since it's a speech, do we know that he didn't gesticulate quotes around the term? RJII 15:28, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Unless you can cite a source, this is just your imagination regarding Marxism. Please understand that things are not necessarily true just because you believe so. Cite your sources. Again, here is a current left critique of capitalism using the word "free market". Ultramarine 15:36, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Go to Google, put in the phrase "Marxist critique of capitalism" and pull up the first dozen or so. No mention is made that capitalism is a free market. Again, you may be able to find a few here and there that improperly equate free market with lack of government involvement, but the overwhelming number of critiques are intelligent on this matter and do not do so. They assume that the private ownership of capital is antithetical to a free market, granting that it involves coercion. RJII 15:42, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Just add "free market" to the search and there are numerous examples of communist texts containing the words "free market". Ultramarine 15:48, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Duh! If you put "free market" in the search then that's what you're going to find! If you want to be objective then don't put free market in the search, then see how many say that capitalism is a free market. RJII 15:51, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Your theory is proven false. There are numerous communists who use the term free market. Ultramarine 15:52, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

This is it for you and me buddy. I find your mentality and reasoning ability abysmal. From here on out, I'm not dealing with you. RJII 15:54, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Another original research theory biting the dust. :) Ultramarine 15:59, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Have another beer. RJII 15:59, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

This silliness is based on two contradictory definitions of the term "free market" - absolute (not an ounce of market force impeded anywhere) and relative ("freer" compared to some standard eg another country or what I would like, or whatever). The latter may have a place in a definition of capitalism, but at the risk of confusing rather than clarifying, because it will either be highly ambiguous or need quite a bit of effort to pin down.

As a footnote, much of this is based on the widespread acceptance of the use of the polemical and ambiguous "free" in the term "free market". The term "unregulated market" (or "unrestricted market" if that sounds too negative) would be rather more helpful, if less motherhood-and-apple-pie sounding. Rd232 16:28, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The adjectival use of free to mean unrestricted is perfectly appropriate idiomatic English. Heck, chemists speak of "free expansion" of a gas, a "free electron" such as here or "free oxygen" (that not bound into a molecule) etc. That's not polemics, its description. --Christofurio 14:13, Mar 13, 2005 (UTC)

Define "free market": --Ben 06:05, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Is that question for me? If so, I'll give it a shot. A market is free if the decisions to buy, sell, lease, borrow, etc. are made there without concern about the potential or actual interposition of agents of the sovereign. I don't think such freedom is part of the better definitions of capitalism as a historical fact, but it does have a lot to do with capitalism as a continuing ideal. Some people see us capitalists as cynics, whereas we tend to see ourselves as idealists. --Christofurio 13:26, Mar 15, 2005 (UTC)

Ultramarine and three revert rule

Congratulations Ultramarine. You just violated the three revert rule. You reverted four times. RJII 18:41, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

the introduction to the article

Every time someone has raised an objection to the opening, I have compromised or responded -- and still someone wants to delete valid information. As for the first bullet point, RJII insisted that capitalism is a system, so we put in the word system. RJII argued that not all of the practices mentioned are necessarily part of capitalism, so we put in "one or more of the following." RJII claimed that my reference to "relatively free markets" is original research, so I provided a source. This is how people work together to improve an article -- not by unilaterally deleting valid content. Now, some people claim that capitalism must be understood historically, while others claim that it is an abstract system. Guess what: the introduction makes room for both views -- the first bullet point accomodates the first view, and the second bullet point accomodates the second view. This is inclusive, and NPOV. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:52, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

In regard to "free market" verus "relatively free market." One source doesn't make a consensus. I'm going to change it to "free market" unless you can give us some reason to believe that the consensus of definitions out there say "relatively." You can find a single source to say anything. RJII 20:04, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Stop changing your story. You deleted it because you claimed that it was original research. Now I show you that it is not original research. That is enough.

No it's not enough. It's not enough that something is not original research. If your secondary research is presented as being representative of consensus and you only have one source then it's not enough. We're supposed to be presenting the consensus of what's out there, rather than finding one source and then presenting it as the consensus. Eventually you'll get a grasp on what we here at Misplaced Pages are trying to do and what we mean by "original research." But then, maybe you won't. RJII 20:33, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

You don't like it? Take it to mediation then. Slrubenstein | Talk 20:48, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I did not "unilaterally delete valid content", I reverted to Ultramanrine's version from yesterday, which links to many definitions of capitalism, instead of clinging to one in the intro. Secondly, I did bring up my objection to the Europe reference in the above section 'a sincere atttempt'. Though you and Ultramarine responded to selected portions of that, you did not defend the inclusion of the Europe refence. If you dont respond to my complaints, then you should not complain if I edit. User:Mgw

Fair enough. I do hope my explanation now satisfies you. I do believe that the three bullet points taken together, as well as the way the first one is phrased, can accomodate Mommsen's view as well as Marx's. Slrubenstein | Talk 20:23, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Slrubenstein: Is the above a response to me? I dont know what it means. Is it a response to my objections about Europe? IF so, I would ask again that you look at what I wrote above and respond to those objections. Aside from the problem about Europe, the first sentence has a syntactical error. Examine it without the dependent clause abotu Europe, and you will see that is doesnt make sense: "a system based on one or more of the following economic practices...involving the right of individuals and groups of individuals acting as "artificial legal persons" (corporations) to own and trade private property..." What are the practices? Are they corporations, etc., or are those things what is involed in the parctices? The sentence in unclear. I have complained again and again about the intro, and am still waiting for responses. Mgw

Slrubenstein: Having not heard from you again, I will go ahead and edit. Mgw 21:20, 12 March 2005

Guess what -- I am not always at my computer. Yes, it was a reply to you. I understand your point about Europe, I know Momsen's arguments. But other people have other views, and the article must include all views, and the introduction to the article must accomodate all views. As I say, it acommodates both Momsen and Marx. You are right about the syntax, I look forward to seeing how you corrected it, Slrubenstein | Talk 18:43, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Hey, have you guys noticed the first sentence, how it says "one or more of the following"? This is nonsense: if a hypothecial economy had only prices determined by suply and demand, but none of the other features listed, nobody would call it capitalism. Mgw

This is an attempt to accomodate the various definitions of capitalism. Many of the definitions can be constructed by taking some of the statements in the current description. Ultramarine 18:03, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Slrubenstein: I think thats a reasonable compromise, and I added a comma for syntax. Ultramarine: That phrase in the first sentence may be an attempt to accomodate differnt views, but, as Ive stated, its inaccurate. You would not call an economy capitalist if it had only one of those characteristics. Mgw 20:26, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)

It could be changed to "a system based on certain combinations of one or more of the following economic practices" Ultramarine 21:25, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I think it would be better to do away entirely with "one or more", becuase that still implies than any one of those characteristics makes an economy capitalist. If agents in an economy lacked the ability to buy and sell land and capital (one of the charcteristics listed), it would probably not be considered capitalism. I think It should be: an economic sysytem "usually incorporating" or "often defined by" or somthing like that. Also, not all of the practices listed are economic: the ability of corporations to act as legal persons is a legal practice. I think it should be "an economic system based on the following practices" instead. Also, do you think we should archive some the older stuff here? The page is getting really big. Mgw 23:28, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Actually just one of those characteristics can make an economy capitalist. That condition is the private ownership of capital. I've tried to make the point here before. There is a common definition of capitalism that only denotes the private ownership of capital ..it's sometimes called the Marxist definition. In Marxism a capitalist is someone who owns capital, and capitalism is that state of affairs --free market, etc. doesn't even enter the picture. A few people here can't seem to get it that through their heads and insist on this horrible introduction. RJII 15:07, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

RJII continues to be a POV warrior thinking that his view is the only view (he says it is "sometimes called the marxist definition" but this is just clear evidence that he doesn't know what he is talking about. It is not the Marxist definitions, and RJII refuses to Misplaced Pages: Cite sources — who calls this the marxist definition?). Mgw, I appreciate your attempts to reach a compromise and I also think the points you make are valid. I suggest deleting the word "system." Some people of course do think that capitalism is a specifically "economic" system, but some do not. To use just the word "system" is the more inclusive phrasing, and the difference between these views can be explored in the body. As for the "one or more" ... I have no objection to "based on." But let me suggest one other possibility: "consisting of some combination of the following ..." What do you think? If you don't like my suggestions, I am happy to go with "based on." Slrubenstein | Talk 15:21, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Capitalism as the condition of privately owning capital

Thackery uses "capitalism" to mean the private ownership of capital. Others use it in the same way. This use of the word should be in the intro. RJII 16:06, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Please give the exact quote from Thackery. Explain why this is not already covered in the first bullet point. Ultramarine 16:07, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

There is no quote saying anything like "capitalism is defined as..." But capitalism is the word he uses to refer to the ownership of capital. A capitalist is someone who owns capital and capitalism is the state of affairs of him owning that capital. It's very simple. It's also how Marx uses the words "kapitalist" and "kapitalisten." This usage of the word was around before "capitalism" started referring to the economic system that is usually described and that usage still persists. RJII 16:39, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

So now you are saying Thackary is a marxist? As Ultramarine points out, private ownership of capital is already mentioned in the introduction. Slrubenstein | Talk 16:09, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I never said that Thackery was a Marxist. You're beyond belief. Again, why I dismiss you of being worthy of having a conversation with. RJII 16:15, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

You stated: "There is a common definition of capitalism that only denotes the private ownership of capital ..it's sometimes called the Marxist definition." I asked you for a source. You came up with Thackery. If you are not claiming Thackery was a marxist, then I ask you once again, what is your source for claiming "There is a common definition of capitalism that only denotes the private ownership of capital ..it's sometimes called the Marxist definition?" Slrubenstein | Talk

Whatever you say dude, you only listen to yourself anyway. RJII 16:44, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Capitalism as in "owning capital" sounds simple to me. As for the Thackary is a Marxist comments, Slrubenstein is being dense just so he can start a fight. Don't bother trying to crack this nut. --Ben 05:55, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Are you fellows discussing the novelist Thackeray here? Just wondering. William Makepeace Thackeray -- the bearer of history's best middle name. --Christofurio 16:38, Mar 14, 2005 (UTC)

3rd bullet point in intro redundant

The third bullet point is covered by the second isn't it? By the way, I have to say, the organization and theme of the intro looks like it was devised by a schizophrenic with ADHD. It's abysmal. Yet, somehow a few individuals on here vigilantly guard it as if it's something of value. It's garbage. RJII 17:44, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

You refuse to take seriously or respond to anyone's attempt to explain to you why no one here supports your changes. Now you resort to personal attacks. You have shown no regard for three fundamental policies, Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view, Misplaced Pages:No original research and Misplaced Pages:Cite sources. Now you show that you have no respect for Misplaced Pages:No personal attacks. If you disagree with everyone else here, try convincing us through reasoned arguments, not insults. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:53, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

See talk. I've given more than enough reasons to show that the intro is garbage.RJII 17:54, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Again, the 3rd bullet point "a belief in, and arguments for, the advantages of such practices and/or theories." is covered by the second "competing theories often meant to justify..." so it should be deleted. RJII 17:56, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Ideologies and theories are different things. Slrubenstein | Talk 18:00, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

First sentence of intro makes no sense in context of the rest of the intro

"Capitalism has been defined in different, sometimes competing, ways (see definitions of capitalism). Generally, it refers to one or more of the following:" <--This gives the impression that the descriptions in the bullet points are competing with each other, but they're not. They are altogether different ways of using the word "capitalism." If there were two bullets offering different definition s of capitalism as a system then it would make sense. But as it stands one bullet refers to the system of capitalism, and other two refer to a belief or advocacy of the system. Why I need to be spell this out is beyond me. The intro is obviously incoherent. RJII 18:07, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Wrong again. The word "generally" implies that what follows is true for most if not all definitions of capitalism. Even if they are competeing or on conflict, they may nevertheless share various elements (this is common -- that two ideas may be in competition or conflict does not at all imply that they have nothing in common -- on the contrary...) By the way, does your shift in attention to the first sentence mean that you won't provide the specific citation for Thackery, or for the "marxist" definition of capitalism? Slrubenstein | Talk 18:37, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

To be expected. That went totally over your head. And no, I'm not going to spell it out to you in any more detail. RJII 18:39, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Please avoid ad hominem. Cite your sources adequately. Ultramarine 18:55, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Cite sources to say that the intro sentence makes no sense? What? RJII 19:03, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

People have asked you to provide sources several times. Why don't you go back over those requests -- and finally, respond to them?Slrubenstein | Talk 19:30, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I've provided multiple sources many times. But, apparently, if they conflict with your POV, they're not sources. RJII 19:49, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Arbitration?

When looking at the latest edit by RJII it is obvious that he/she is uninterested in reflecting many of the definitions of capitalism in the intro. He/she generally avoids citing sources for his statements adequately, refuses to explain the edits, and uses hominem attacks. Is it time for arbitration? Ultramarine 19:24, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Yes, let's call you into arbitration. No matter how much explaining is done and no matter how many sources are cited, you are intent at keeping the status-quo in the intro, as far as content and bad, incoherent, writing. RJII 19:29, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

"no matter how many sources are cited?" Really? And how many sources have you provided citations for? Slrubenstein | Talk 19:53, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

See Talk. RJII 20:02, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Many changes have been made in the intro in order to appease you. You still seem determined to change the intro radically to your own definition. Most seem to agree on the general form of the current introduction, although the details may still be debated. Note that while your where banned for breaking the 3 revert rule there was little change. Ultramarine 20:07, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

No, most don't agree that the intro is good. Many people have argued otherwise here. It's just that they don't want to engage in an edit war because they know you and rubenstein stand guard 24/7 to revert changes and keep the intro as vague, uninformative, and incoherent as possible. Note that you broke the 3 revert rule and were banned. That happened because I reported you and it was found I had as well. Don't think I won't report you again. RJII 20:28, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Thackeray

I removed this sentence:

The first use of the word "capitalism" in English is by Thackeray in 1854, by which he meant having ownership of capital.

because it is unverifiable. Let's have a proper citation, and a fuller paraphrase, if not an actual quote. Slrubenstein | Talk 23:01, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Specifically, the word appears in a Thackeray novel called The Newcomes, which first appeared in serialized from 1853 to 1855. The sentence is "The sense of capitalism sobered and dignified Paul de Florac." I doubt WMT would want too much heavy ideological baggage placed upon this, but he did mean that it was the character, de Florac's, business responsibilities, i.e. his ownership of capital, that sobered him. You can confirm this, if you wish, simply by googling that sentence. What you wish to do with it in terms of the text of this article is another matter! --Christofurio 23:25, Mar 14, 2005 (UTC)

We are going to be seeing a rash of text removed from Misplaced Pages as undocumented "original research" or "unverifiable" in the near future: follow some of the behind-the-scenes discussion at Misplaced Pages talk:No original research. Let us be sure that our censorship is not based on our ignorance. --Wetman 23:30, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Intro

What does this mean?: "virtually all definitions of capitalism include, or are based theories may be a part of schools of thought advocating a different system than capitalism." ??? RJII 14:54, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

This is not the actual text. Note that capitalism is defined and used in various descriptions and theories by both supporters and opponents. Ultramarine 15:34, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)