| Revision as of 01:12, 14 February 2007 editCaptainbarrett (talk | contribs)447 edits q's← Previous edit | Revision as of 01:29, 14 February 2007 edit undoJeffrey O. Gustafson (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users15,218 edits Revert. First, all comments below the red line. Second, AfD discussions are not required to be neutral - articles are.Next edit → | ||
| Line 8: | Line 8: | ||
| *The individual is non-notable. See this , for instance. | *The individual is non-notable. See this , for instance. | ||
| :* How is this NPOV?] 01:12, 14 February 2007 (UTC) | |||
| *There are serious concerns with the veracity of the references used in the article. | *There are serious concerns with the veracity of the references used in the article. | ||
| :* No there arn't. See Talk page for article.] 01:12, 14 February 2007 (UTC) | |||
| With that out of the way, the discussion in this AfD will remain limited to the whether or not the article's claims meet our standards set up for proper references, and whether or not the subject of the article meets our criteria for inclusion. Procedural brouhaha shall remain on the talk page of the AfD only. --] - '']'' - ] 16:26, 13 February 2007 (UTC) | With that out of the way, the discussion in this AfD will remain limited to the whether or not the article's claims meet our standards set up for proper references, and whether or not the subject of the article meets our criteria for inclusion. Procedural brouhaha shall remain on the talk page of the AfD only. --] - '']'' - ] 16:26, 13 February 2007 (UTC) | ||
Revision as of 01:29, 14 February 2007
Ebony Anpu
- The initial AfD with the original nominator's comments concerning veracity of the sources and notability may be seen at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Ebony Anpu, first try.
Okay folks, revisiting this AfD I have decided to reset it. Bare with me here. There were procedural concerns with the initial drafting of this AfD, namely that an Anon initiated it. However, the anon and or anons that started it have valid points, but such points have been lost by the fact that there has been use of proxies, and actual discussion about the merits of the article has been lost amongst folks disagreeing with the legitimacy of the AfD. So I am restarting the AfD, period. I have no opinion on the article, but here are the issues addressed by the anons, and I feel that they are valid reasons to initiate an AfD...
- The individual is non-notable. See this Google Search, for instance.
- There are serious concerns with the veracity of the references used in the article.
With that out of the way, the discussion in this AfD will remain limited to the whether or not the article's claims meet our standards set up for proper references, and whether or not the subject of the article meets our criteria for inclusion. Procedural brouhaha shall remain on the talk page of the AfD only. --Jeffrey O. Gustafson - Shazaam! - <*> 16:26, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached
Please add new discussions below this notice. Thanks, --Jeffrey O. Gustafson - Shazaam! - <*> 16:32, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
- No Vote For the record. --Jeffrey O. Gustafson - Shazaam! - <*> 16:32, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
- Keep See (Old AfD). Captain Barrett 16:51, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
- No vote from me either for right now, but I think Jeffrey did the right thing by refreshing this discussion. (jarbarf) 17:10, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
- Notablility: 'Notable here means "worthy of being noted" or "attracting notice". It is not synonymous with "fame" or "importance". It is not measured by Misplaced Pages editors' own subjective judgements. Notability is generally permanent.'-Misplaced Pages. Already Ebony has attracted a lot of Notice in the week he has been on Wiki. Everything against him has been character assasination with no validity. The proof of his notability is found in all AfD records. I mean, seriously, how could someone who is _not notable_ cause so much interest and concern in the first week? Captain Barrett 17:33, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
- Comment and similar can't have done any harm... Dave 19:26, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
- Heh, good point. I was trying to get more sources, but I ended up getting vandals. Captain Barrett 23:35, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
- Delete I have no idea what the article is talking about, and therefore it cannot reasonably be said to be asserting notabliity. Happy to change if article improves. Dave 18:41, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
- To explain myself further: It is impossible for me, with no knowledge of thelma etc, to judge the subject notable as the article currently stands. If the article was modified so that notability was clearly asserted, then I would be happy to change my vote. Dave 18:49, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
- Delete per Dave. I've read the article twice and I haven't got a clue what it's about, but it doesn't seem to be about Mr Anpu for the most part. At present, fails WP:BIO. One Night In Hackney 18:59, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
- Delete unless independently sourced. I have no problems finding independent (= mainstream, scholarly, literary) sources on Aleister Crowley. This person otoh only seemed to exist within the confines of O.T.O., so unless independent sources are found a neutral biography can't be written. I checked Newsbank and the local rags here, (eastbayexpress.com, sfbg.com, sfgate.com) for appearances but no luck. ~ trialsanderrors 20:00, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
- Delete. I believe that a good article might be written on this topic, but the current one is hopeless. There seem to be no reliable sources. As someone else wrote, 'No reliable sources => no article'. If someone sincerely wants to do research on this, they might be able to rescue it. Mentions of this person in the press would certainly be useful. EdJohnston 20:55, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
- delete unless sourced but that means two separate things: (I expand on my comment in the earlier AfD:
- the first is whether there is any reliable evidence that the person existed. We usually do have data that supports the bare existence so it rarely enters into the discussions here--the private imaginary worlds and non-existent musicians almost always get filtered out quickly in speedy or Prod. When a hoax gets discussed, it can usually be eliminated on the grounds of contradictions, as well as sources. (There may still be some more clever flights of the imagination in WP undetected) But in this case there is zero out-of-cult documentation that there ever was such a person. Given the general nature of AC's writings, I think we are justified in asking for at least one source from someone not involved with the groups who has actually seen the person.
- I have examined all the external links. The page at http://www.93current.de/groups.shtml lists 33 related groups, with varing amounts of documentation, and uses language implying hat the compiler has some doubts about some of them. Our guy is "no.27 Hawk & Jackal the sun and the moon conjoined: Thelemic Witchcraft. Founded by Charles Reese a.k.a. Ebony Anpu, who died far to soon, so you can't contact them anymore. Check out his work." (with a link to http://home.earthlink.net/~charlesreese/HawkJackal.html, which gives a "page not found" error. ) The oregon site is "cannot find server," The Arkansas one does have a real page, but "2/10/2007 Hotmail/MSN NOTE: Hotmail/msn are NOT accepting email from the Witchvox server at this time - we are working with them on this issue." The site on geocities lists some SF address he is said to have inhabited, and has a photograph. But a testimonial there reports "At the age of 18, Ebony was forced to leave Texas due to legal difficulties. At this point one begins to run into the problem which faces any attempt at biography of Ebony Anpu: his extreme penchant for tall tales concerning his own life." http://www.leapinglaughter.org/archive/charlesreese/ebonylog.htm has a saved chat session. So we have that and the photographs and the memoirs.
- the other part of sourced is sourcing the information given in the article. For documentation of what he thought and wrote, in-universe sources are i think acceptable, since they seem to consistently identify the body of materials. The article (wisely) avoids any biographical discussion, and considers him only as a teacher and writer. If I understand correctly from a very brief reading, this religious movement does not believe in reincarnation. Pity, for that might have been some better evidence than now available.
- I will support the article if there are two truly RS mainstream sources to base it on--not about the religion, for that is well-documented. About the man, which is the subject of this article. I write this hoping that someone will find something, not hoping they will not. DGG 20:59, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
- I respect your commitment to NPOV, DGG. Thank you. I would point out that the use of the term "cult" in reference to the OTO is not acurate, and possibly libelous. They are a recognized non-profit religious corporation. If you discount data from all religious organizations Wiki would be very scant indeed. Think about it. Captain Barrett 23:26, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
- Ebony has at least three living relatives: His daughter :Chandra Reese-Fries, his Mother, and his ex-wife Leisle. I am currently working on contacting them for more info. Captain Barrett 23:17, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
- comment "Cult " is a neutral term to me, meaning a relatively small religious group. It also has the meaning of a pattern of worship: Catholics refer to the cult of the Virgin Mary. I apologize if others understood it differently.
- I note that a resource mentioned in another discussion, http://www.egnu.org/thelema/ , does not mention him. It would take considerable OR to decide if this is because of relative unimportance , or religious differences. I have mentioned in that other discussion (Sam Webster) that ministers of conventional religions have well known and stable structures and offices and distinctions, which can be used for assessing N. They also acquire their knowledge through established divinity schools of some sort, and they sometimes publish in peer-reviewed journals. This makes establishing N much easier and much more objective.
- I consider all religions to be notable provided there is some V way of finding out about them--I think this is the only possible standard, as WP is not a judge of theological truth. Individuals are another matter--any group with more than one religious leader has some who are more notable than others in that group. It's that which can be judged objectively if there are objectively visible criteria. If not, they can still be established as N through 3rd party mention. If this fails as well, it is beyond human ability to judge. DGG 00:21, 14 February 2007 (UTC)