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• WT:CITE

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Citing sources page.

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view · edit Frequently asked questions Why doesn't Misplaced Pages require everyone to use exactly the same style for formatting citations on every single article, regardless of the subject? Different academic disciplines use different styles because they have different needs and interests. Variations include differences in the choice of information to include, the order in which the information is presented, the punctuation, and the name of the section headings under which the information is presented. There is no house style on Misplaced Pages, and the community does not want to have the holy war that will happen if we tell people that they must use the style preferred by scientists in articles about history or the style preferred by artists when writing about science. Editors should choose a style that they believe is appropriate for the individual article in question and should never edit-war over the style of citations. What styles are commonly used? There are many published style manuals. For British English the Oxford Style Manual is the authoritative source. For American English the Chicago Manual of Style is commonly used by historians and in the fine arts. Other US style guides include APA style which is used by sociologists and psychologists, and The MLA Style Manual which is used in humanities. The Council of Science Editors and Vancouver styles are popular with scientists. Editors on Misplaced Pages may use any style they like, including styles they have made up themselves. It is unusual for Misplaced Pages articles to strictly adhere to a formally published academic style. Isn't everyone required to use clickable footnotes like this to cite sources in an article? Yes. Footnotes (also called "<ref> tags") or shortened footnotes are now required in new articles, although some older articles may still use the now-deprecated citation system of inline parenthetical referencing (see WP:PARREF). Why doesn't Misplaced Pages require everyone to use citation templates in every single article? Citation templates have advantages and disadvantages. They provide machine-readable meta data and can be used by editors who don't know how to properly order and format a citation. However, they are intimidating and confusing to most new users, and, if more than a few dozen are used, they make the pages noticeably slower to load. Editors should use their best judgment to decide which format best suits each specific article. Isn't there a rule that every single sentence requires an inline citation? No. Misplaced Pages:Verifiability requires citations based on the content rather than the grammar. Sometimes, one sentence will require multiple inline citations. In other instances, a whole paragraph will not require any inline citations. Aren't general references prohibited? A general reference is a citation listed at the end of an article, without any system for linking it to a particular bit of material. In an article that contains more than a couple of sentences, it is more difficult to maintain text-source integrity without using inline citations, but general references can be useful and are not banned. However, they are not adequate if the material is one of four types of content requiring an inline citation. The article Early life of Joseph Smith, Jr. is an example of a featured article that uses some general references. Can I cite a sign? Yes, signs, including gravestones, that are displayed in public are considered publications. If the article is using citation templates, then use {{cite sign}}. You may also cite works of art, videos, music album liner notes, sheet music, interviews, recorded speeches, podcasts, television episodes, maps, public mailing lists, ship registers, and a wide variety of other things that are published and accessible to the public.

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Proposal: citation as a means of connecting material to a source

In a continuing effort to clarify this guideline by removing confusing and meaningless verbiage, I propose replacing the first two paragraphs with the following:

Citation (broadly) is the means of connecting material in an article to a source. Citation is the basis of verifiability, a core content policy. As stated in that policy, all material in Misplaced Pages articles must be verifiable, and certain kinds of material must be explicitly cited to a source. Other policies set requirements regarding appropriate sources and their use (see no original research, reliable sources, neutral point of view, and copyright policy); these will not be discussed here. This guideline is intended to provide guidance in the practice of citation on Misplaced Pages.

I point out that this is only a start to the guideline, and neither does nor should cover every possible point, exception, or misinterpretation in the first paragraph. Likewise regarding detailed definitions and uses of "citation as a thing", general references, etc.: no stand on these is taken here, I am just trying to create some basis on which we can stand. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 22:00, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

The proposal essentially says a general reference is not a citation, but it is, so the proposal fails. Jc3s5h (talk) 22:31, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

I also oppose this proposal, and invite the proposer to drop the stick and stop beating this dead horse. The act of citing sources is meant to show your work, which may or may not involve connecting specific material to specific sources. Citation may be an action, but a citation (what we're defining in the first sentence) is a thing, not an action. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:23, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Jc: the proposal does not "essentially say" anything about general references. It is as I just said regarding "general references, etc.: no stand on these is taken here." (Emphasis in the original.) Nor does it say anything about what a citation is, or is not. Your objection is effectively pulled out of thin air, as it has no basis in the text of the proposal.

W: you always oppose any change to improve Misplaced Pages, so what's new? Perhaps you wouldn't mind getting out of the road? It also does not help that you don't pay attention. (How many times do I have to ask you?) E.g., you say that "what we're defining in the first sentence..." — ah, is that in the first sentence of the guideline, or first sentence of the proposal? What you seem to have missed is where I said the proposal is to replace that "first sentence". And the proposed replacement explicitly states it is referring to citation broadly, not "a" citation. We can define your "line of text" kind of citation at a lower level. There is room for that, and "general reference", within the broad scope I am trying to sketch, but it is probably a waste of time showing you how, as you are such a blind obstructionist. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 22:50, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

A citation in the terms of WP:V can be read to mean inline citation. There may be less objection if the first sentence was "A reference is the means of connecting material in an article to a source". -- PBS (talk) 08:38, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Can be read, yes, but that's there, and why should that merely possible and non-authoritative interpretation be controlling on an explicit definition here? And again yes, undoubtedly there would be less opposition if in the very first sentence of this guideline we confirm various articles of faith regarding "a citation" and "general references". But that is part of the problem with this guideline — it starts by confirming various bones that certain people don't want to let go of, and then it tries to stitch these disparate parts together. Hell and damnation, WE CAN'T EVEN SENSIBLY DISCUSS various points, because when I say "citation (broadly)" someone else insists it must be "a citation", and so on. In this proposal I am not taking a stand on any of these pet concerns, I am, as I said at the outset, trying to give us a basis on which to stand. Which leaves plenty of room to argue all those points further on. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 00:41, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

PBS, it would be far more accurate to say "A reference or a citation is the stuff you type to tell the reader what sources you used to write the article". It doesn't matter which word you're using: the community (for better or worse) has defined reference and citation as being synonyms. The community also defines both references and citations as having two subtypes: the inline subtype (highly desirable) and the non-inline subtype (permitted). Both of these subtypes are still these things, but J Johnson's definition excludes one of the subtypes.

J Johnson, if you define a citation as "connecting material in an article to a source", and general references are correctly defined as "not 'connecting material in an article to a source'" then, yes, you are defining general references as not being citations. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:51, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

Agreed. The proposed sentence, "Citation (broadly) is the means of connecting material in an article to a source" describes just one use of a citation. A citation, or reference, is simply text that uniquely identifies a piece of work. See, for example, here.

I think the current first sentence is fine as it is; personally, I prefer it with "a line of text," but without is okay too. SlimVirgin 02:01, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

W: So you restrict all references/citations narrowly, assert a "community definition" that there two subtypes, then boldly leap across a logical lacuna to declare that my definition excludes one of the subtypes. Please, can you tell me which of those fourteen words mentions, or even suggests, anything in the nature of a subtype? Or even hints at any kind exclusion?

You also blame me for making "general reference" not a citation, because I define citation as "connecting material to a source", and you define "general reference" as not connecting such material. No, that is not consequence of my definition, that is your restriction. I suspect you are thinking that genrefs don't connect from the text (i.e., "inline"), but (ha ha, fooled you) my definition does not specify that. My definition explicitly says broadly; it says nothing at this level as to the nature of the connection, or the means. I do not exclude genrefs, you do. I point out that the definition at Citation also excludes genrefs, whereas my approach is permissive.

I point out to all that the narrow usage of "citation" as a descriptive line of text — i.e., the bibliographic reference, or, as I call it, the full citation — is subsumed as part of the means by which "citation broadly" is done. Citation narrowly gets described at a lower level of detail. My proposal starts by describing the whole puzzle, not just one of the pieces. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 22:08, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

We're telling you what your proposed text actually says, and it's no good telling us that you meant something else. We've got enough problems in our policies and guidelines with text that doesn't actually mean exactly what a plain reading of it indicates, and I'm convinced that nobody else here is interested in adding any more examples of this problem. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:40, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

I submit that plain reading of text means without adding your own definitions and interpretations. You are the one that is trying to make fourteen plain words mean something else. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 00:03, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

As there has been no comment on the rest of the proposed change I presume it is acceptable. It is in the nature of a scope statement that delineates what is, and is not covered, and the benefit of referencing other relevant policies without trying to redefine them here seems obvious.

As to the initial definition of "citation (broadly)" I reiterate that it is a broad, general statement, which makes no statements nor implications regarding any details of form or usage. (It's like a large block of rock, which has yet to be carved.) As to "general references": while I feel this notion has gotten very entangled, that is largely for lack of proper definition. The proposed definition of "citation (broadly)" provides a basis for properly defining "general reference" and possibly resolving some of those issues, and is actually more permissive of that concept than other definitions. I emphatically state: it does NOT exclude "general reference", nor am I trying to take away anyone's favorite bone. If that is understood, I would like to get on with some needed improvements. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 20:19, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

There being no further discussion of the proposal, I have made the change. Two points: 1) There are some places in the rest of the text slightly discordant with this, but we can work those out. 2) It occurred to me that the sentence starting "Other policies set requirements ..." perhaps should be strengthened by prefacing it with "Editors should be aware of ...". Comments? ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 21:55, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

I restored the first paragraph, which seems clearer. It's important to say that a citation is the same thing as a reference, and to give an example. SlimVirgin 23:56, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

Your after the act remark ("seems clearer") does not arise to the level of discussion, so I have reverted your "restoration". I agree that examples are important, but that comes in at a lower level. If you have any other objections, concerns, or confusion, please raise them here. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk)

Your proposals have been opposed by several editors, because they're less clear than the current version, and arguably introduce an unusual understanding of "citation". Therefore, please either let this go or continue the discussion, but don't try to force in your changes. SlimVirgin 20:14, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Okay, let's continue. You claim that I 'introduce an unusual understanding of "citation".' I presume you refer to this concept of "connecting" material to a source. In fact that was part of CharlesGillingham's suggestion for a new lead back in 2008. (And excised only because someone complained of verbosity, not for any complaint re the concept.) Possibly other terms could be used ("attribution"?), but "connection" seems to plainly and aptly describe the relationship between "material" and "sources". You have not shown there is anything "unusual" in either the relationship or the term; your complaint is deficient.

Earlier (29 May) you complained that the proposed definition "describes just one use of a citation." Overlooking a tiny error that I did not describe "a" citation, but citation broadly, I ask: what is wrong with that? (Especially as your following definition equally "describes just one use" of the term.)

Please pay attention (W, too): I defined citation broadly, you defined it narrowly (as a citation). Note: these are non-conflicting definitions. This definition of citation-BROADLY does not alter your definition of "a" citation. (Which as I have said before, should be defined at a lower level.) What part of this do you not understand? ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 00:46, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

No, you said that you were defining the concept broadly, but you then actually presented a very narrow definition. Mere assertion that the definition is broad does not make it so. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:57, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

What???! What kind of unstated (secret?) interpretations are you applying to make my plain words "very narrow"? To go back to a previous question (which you have yet to answer) which of the proposed fourteen words in any way narrow, exclude, restrict, straiten, or qualify this definition? Or (if analysis is too difficult) just give me a couple of examples of citation that are excluded by the proposed definition. I throw your own words back at you: Mere assertion that the definition is narrow does not make it so. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 20:10, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

W: Still waiting for any examples of "citation" that are excluded by the proposed definition. Put up or shut up. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 19:45, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

We've already answered you: your definition—the one that says "the means of connecting material in an article to a source"—is invalid for any citation that does not "connect material" to the source, but instead merely provides information about a source without "connecting material" to that source. For example, go look at the very first example at the top of this guideline. That's "a citation" for Misplaced Pages's purposes. However, it is (1) not in an article and (2) does not connect any material to the source. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:16, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

  And I have already rebutted you (above, on 29 May). But since you weren't paying attention, let's go over it again. You apply your own interpretation and qualifications, such as assuming that the proposed definition applies only to material in articles (DOES NOT SAY THAT!), or that "connecting material" limits it to inline citations (DOES NOT SAY THAT!). Then (omighosh!) you find that you (I repeat: you) have excluded your golden calf of general reference. Which you then blame on me. Well, I call bullshit on that.

  Your argument that the "Ritter" example would be excluded because it is not in an article is wholly discreditable. In the first place, the proposed definition does not say only in an article; use in other contexts is not excluded. Second, I think it is generally understood that examples used here and elsewhere are to be taken as they would be used in an article. Third, if you want to argue like that, then the Ritter example is not a citation by the existing definition, which says that citations are used to identify the reliable sources on which an article is based, because no article is based on this example. Similarly, all of the "Alice Expert" examples — such as you have used yourself on this page — are not citations, because "Alice Expert" is not a reliable source. (And if you really want to have a pissing contest, then I claim that her book has multiple editions, and in failing to uniquely identify which one your example again fails the current definition, and therefore is not a citation.)

  In summary: your conclusion that the proposed definition is "very narrow" is due entirely to your misinterpretation, and your twisted argumentation. Your objection is invalid. And I tell you again: the proposed definition does not exclude your "general references". ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 01:11, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

Your definition begins "Citation (broadly) is the means of connecting material in an article to a source.".

Please consider the Ritter example at the top of the guideline, and tell me what "material in an article" that source is connected to. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:27, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

The Ritter example connects whatever example it is associated with. Presumably the example is presented to show what a "line of text" kind of full citation looks like, without bothering with other details. In fact it does contain a specification (the "p. 1"), which implies that the connection (identification) is to specific material. And it is not only reasonable but quite likely that a citation of precisely this form could be used in the text (with or without parentheses), or in a footnote in the text, in exactly the same way we might expect to see a short cite used. That this example does not show us what material it is associated with is because it was taken out of context. That this or any other example does not actually connect, or "uniquely identify", a source (let alone a reliable source) is immaterial; the point is to show how the citation would be done. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 21:23, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

Tags for language and "subscription only"?

I'm currently having a discussion with User:Brianboulton on WP:FAC (more specifically, at FAC:Jürgen Ehlers) about the advisability of adding certain kinds of tags to sources such as journal articles (and, equivalently, books). I think it would be good to have a more general discussion about this topic here and, if there is a consensus one way or the other, to add some sentences to WP:CITE for clarification. The two tag issues are independent of each other.

The first issue concerns language tags, such as "(in German)" or, a bit longer, "(in German; English translation of title: "<Whatever the title is>"). Should those be recommended by our style guidelines?

The second issue is, in my eyes, a bit more complex. It concerns subscription tags. If the online version of a journal article is not available freely, but requires a subscription, should we require the citation to include (or suggest that it include) a tag "(subscription required)"?

I'll be adding my own opinions in a separate section below; this is just the statement of the two questions. Markus Pössel (talk) 16:26, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

My opinion on the additional tags is that any additional tags make the reference section more crowded, and that tags are only advisable if they add unambiguous information that helps the reader.

The information provided by language tags would be helpful to anyone not fluent in that particular language, but willing to track down somebody who can translate. I'm undecided on whether or not it should be recommended for a translation of the title to be included.

The information provided by subscription tags is ambiguous; it would be available even without the tag with just one additional click; for most readers interested in tracking down the source, it wouldn't even be an additional click; also, the information is likely to change over time, requiring updates. Concretely:

• The online version of an article as linked by the Digital Object Identifier might require subscription, but a perfectly serviceable e-print might not. Not using the (subscription required) tag in that case would be misleading, as it would convey false information about the official online version; using it would be misleading because it would imply that any only version, including e-prints, requires subscription.
• Subscription policies are so diverse as to further diminish the information contained in a subscription tag. Even if I'm a reader that is only interested in sources accessible without me paying anything, the tag might mark an article where, as in the case of a number of JSTOR articles, I might be able to get free access simply by registering (or not, if I have used that option before). So the subscription tag does not save me the necessity of clicking the given online link, in other words: contains no usable information.
• Whether or not a subscription is required is subject to change - a number of journals will make articles older than a number of years available without subscription. Introducing a subscription tag would introduce substantial additional work in keeping an article up to date.
• In the great majority of cases where an online link is provided by DOI, the first page reached by clicking that link contains all the necessary information. Even if we leave out the subscription tag, not much is lost - one click, and whoever wants information about subscription information will have that information.
• In practice, that is not even an extra click - whoever is interested in the article is quite likely to click on the DOI in any case, simply to retrieve the abstract.

In summary, I think subscription tags add extra work without giving much usable information in return, and I am opposed to recommending them in WP:CITE. Markus Pössel (talk) 16:26, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

The fact remains that the "subscription required" tag does exist and we need to know when to use it, or not. Maybe this is more relevant to newspaper citations. I think we should use it for The Times (London), which has been completely behind a paywall for some while. But what do we do about The Daily Telegraph (London) -- to which there are squillions of references in many WP articles on UK subjects -- which has always been free until now but, as of a week or two ago, now allows the reader a certain number of views per month but after that you have to take out a paid subscription? Should we have a separate tag for this situation, called something like "restricted access"? -- Alarics (talk) 18:10, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

The mere existence of the tag doesn't carry much weight one way or the other. The example of The Daily Telegraph is a good one for two reasons: It shows that there are various ways of "subscription required", so the mere tag doesn't carry all that much information, and also that if use of that tag should be encouraged, then every time the subscription model changes, we face squillions of necessary changes. Both are, I think, good reasons for discouraging use of that particular tag.

It's also a good example because it shows another difference: For a link to a subscription-only newspaper article, clicking without a subscription will be frustrating because you essentially end up in a dead end. For scientific journals, you usually at least get some additional information by clicking, even if the complete content is subscription only: you at least get the abstract. Another reason not to lump the two cases together. Markus Pössel (talk) 18:31, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

Use of the "subscription required" tag does provide information to the reader. We need not be concerned about crowded reference sections. Most readers refer to the section for a specific reference, and we are not type-setting.

• (1) The "subscription required" tag does not imply anything about any other versions, it is strictly about the link (URL) provided.
• (2) The "subscription required" tag does not stop one from clicking through, it just informs the reader that they may not be able to view the complete document when doing so.
• (3) While occasionally vendors will make articles older than a certain number of years available without subscription, this not the usual case, excepting the six-month to one-year blackout period adopted by some journals upon publication, in which case the "subscription required" tag would not be appropriate.

As to language tags, they help when I don't recognize the language, or when the title does not disclose it, such as Latin titles. And yes, I want to know if a volume has been translated, and by whom, and the original title. If something is a reprint with a title change, I'd like to know the original publication date and title as well. --Bejnar (talk) 19:44, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

In view of all the above, my inclination, until somebody tells me otherwise, is (a) not to add the "subscription required" tag to any new references, (b) not to cite the URL at all in the case of The Times, since readers who do have a subscription to it will know how to find it online and for everyone else it is pointless and frustrating, (c) cite the URL but without a tag in the case of The Daily Telegraph, in the hope that most readers will not reach the maximum number of articles allowed, and (d) add the "subscription required" tag to existing citations for The Times that do include the URL. Does this seem reasonable? -- Alarics (talk) 07:49, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

What you "should" do is follow the style already present in the article, whatever that is. Are they adding links? If yes, then add links. If no, then don't. Are they tagging sources by language? If yes, then tag the sources. If no, then don't.

Are you establishing the citation style yourself? Then do whatever you want, and talk about it on the article's talk page if you want to involve any other editors at that article.

What you shouldn't do is go to FAC with some idea that there is a right way and a wrong way to do this. Per WP:CITEVAR, it is our official guideline that editors at every single individual article gets the right to establish the citation style that is best for that article, without being told that "my English teacher said" or "The only good stylebook says" or "All the other Misplaced Pages articles do this other thing". WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:00, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

"In-text attribution"?

I wonder if we might consider whether it is useful to to distinguish "in-text" citation (defined at WP:Citing sources#In-text attribution as an attribution within a sentence, "in addition to an inline citation after the sentence") from "inline citation". Quite aside from the curious suggestion of "in addition to", this distinction between "in-text" and "inline" seems to be made only here. The earliest use of this term (at WT:Citing sources/Archive 1#Proposed in-text citation guidelines in 2004) did not make this distinction, nor have I found any other discussion of the distinction. Note that I am not suggesting revisiting whether "mid-sentence footnotes" should be deprecated (as discussed here); I ask if we really need a special term (and an inapt one at that) just to deprecate it. I am wondering if that section could be merged with the "inline citation" section. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 23:26, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

In-text attribution is "Smith argues that ..." It's not the same as inline citation – the distinction disappears when you're using Harvard refs, but most editors don't. Using in-text attribution is important to avoid allegations of plagiarism, so I wouldn't want to see it changed here. SlimVirgin 23:45, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

Huh? Well, "Smith" is incomplete, but presuming there is a year or something to make that an adequate short cite: it is a (short) citation, and it is "located near the material...", so how is it not an inline citation? How does this alleged distinction disappear with "Harvard refs"? ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 00:10, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

The most popular style I know of that uses notes for inline citations is the Chicago Manual of Style. The 16th edition in section 4.98 states "Credit lines. Whether or not the use of others' material requires permission, an author should give the exact source of such material: in a note or internal reference in the text, in a source note to a table, or in a credit line under an illustration." I take this to mean a note number next to a quotation and a corresponding note which is a short or full citation is sufficient. Naming the author within the running text is not required by Chicago, as I understand it. If so, this guideline contains a Misplaced Pages house preference, and not a requirement that is widespread in the English-speaking world. Jc3s5h (talk) 00:50, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Smith is not incomplete. Smith may not be the source; he may be someone interviewed in the source. In-text attribution is not an inline citation. The two can blur in the case of Harvard refs because where Smith is the source, you might write Smith (2013), in which case you have in-text attribution via a Harvard ref (via an inline citation). SlimVirgin 00:14, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

I believe the key here is "someone interviewed in the source". That is: "according to Jones (2004) Smith said ...", which is indirect attribution. Smith is the original source, but "source" in the sense of "work consulted" is "Jones 2004". Compare this to direct attribution: "Smith (2002) said ...."

That both the named section and the definition (in "Types of citation") completely miss this distinction, and the former makes the totally misleading distinction that in-text attribution is "inside a sentence" while inline citation is "after the sentence", is a prime demonstration of just how FUBAR-ed (any one need that spelled out?) things have gotten here. This stuff needs a total rewrite. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 19:38, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

I believe the case where in-text attribution is important is to emphasize that a certain view belongs to the person it is attributed to, and not necessarily the view of the community of Misplaced Pages editors. If the statement merely has quotation marks and a footnote, it might interpreted as a statement of the mainstream view, quoted because the person who wrote it came up with a particularly apt statement of the mainstream view. On the other hand, it was wise for whoever wrote our article on Richard Nixon to use in-text attribution for the sentence "I'm not a crook."

I've never understood the distinction between in-text (used by Chicago and others) and inline (used only on Misplaced Pages). But I ignore it and things work just fine. --  Gadget850 02:32, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

Your lack of understanding is because the claimed distinction exists (if it exists at all) in minds of certain editors, not in any plain text the rest of us can share. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 19:41, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

It's not complicated:

Richard Nixon said, "I'm not a crook."

1. Kilpatrick, Carroll (November 18, 1973). "Nixon tells editors, 'I'm not a crook'". The Washington Post.

The bit that runs "Richard Nixon said" is WP:INTEXT. The little blue number (and the bibliography entry that it leads to) is WP:INLINE. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:05, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

And it's not a phrase used only on Misplaced Pages. See here, for example (bold added):

All ideas, facts, figures and quotations taken from external sources must be properly cited. ... In addition, all direct quotations require an in-text attribution. ... For example, you cannot simply insert the quote “All is flux” into the body of your text. You must include a phrase such as 'According to Heraclitus or “As Heraclitus stated” or “In the words of Heraclitus,” “All is flux.”

SlimVirgin 23:15, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

SV Just as well talk pages do not have to meet the standards laid out in the guideline otherwise you ought to have included MCTC Philosophy Department :-O

The requirement in the content policy has been for may years that a POV must have inline/in text attribution, the requirement for all quotes to have in-text attribution has never been agreed. I think that there are lots of example where in-text attribution is not needed for example with well known phrases such as "second to none". One might summarise several sources and write a sentence They were "second to none". or as an alternative They were second to none. Whether one puts "second to none" in quotations is largely a matter of style (there is no copyright requirement). What one does not have to do is alter the sentence with quotation marks to They were, in the words of the well known traditional phrase, "second to none". to meet any Misplaced Pages content policy. Like so much else it is convenient to for editors to use separate terms for these concepts and a I for one am comfortable with using "in-text" and "in-line" (with or without hyphens) to describe the difference. The only place were this becomes somewhat confusing is when "Parenthetical referencing (Harvard style)" in-line citations are used, but I think that the examples in the guideline make the distinction clear. -- PBS (talk) 08:16, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

• There is consensus that quotes need in-text attribution so far as I know. For example, see WP:MOSQUOTE: "The author of a quote of a full sentence or more should be named; this is done in the main text and not in a footnote." If you don't attribute a quote in-text, it may look like a scare quote. SlimVirgin 22:13, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Sure, not complicated at all. "In-text attribution" is defined in the section "Types of citation", which certainly implies it is a type of citation. And this is reinforced by the statement of when it should be done (quotations, etc.), which parallel the cases that require citation. What, then is the difference between this and "inline citation"? We link to the corresponding section, and the gist of the first sentence is that "in-text attribution" is inside a sentence, while "inline citation" comes after the sentence. So the example WhatamIdoing provided just above is inline citation, while the following example is in-text attribution (which is just a form of citation) because it is inside the sentence:

Richard Nixon said, "I'm not a crook."

Yes, quite clear. In fact, I think some of you have a different distinction in mind (and possiby a valid one at that), but you have failed to reduce it to plain text. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 22:40, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

In the INTEXT attribution points to a publication, then it is also, simultaneously, an INLINE citation. The example of Richard Nixon is not an example of both (Nixon is not a publication), but "According to Alice Expert in her 2010 book, The Sun is Really Big..." is both INTEXT and INLINE. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:01, 8 June 2013 (UTC) Likely you mean "If ..."? -JJ

Sorry, but that is not the plain reading of the text. And your added distinction of pointing to a publication just makes things more complicated without really resolving the fundamental problem, which is confounding attribution with citation. One is the means by how the other is done. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 19:25, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

P.S. Regarding the examples, you may have confused to whom (Nixon/Expert) a statement is attributed with the citation of where (the publication) the statement is documented. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 19:34, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Suggestion to remove confusing ambiguity

The confusion of attribution with citation, and the ambiguous use of "source", makes the treatment of attribution incomprehensible, and is distinctly unhelpful. I suggest that "source" be clarified, so that attribution is the identification of the who (person or group) that uttered or wrote or is otherwise responsible for some statement or material, and citation is the identification of where such material is documented or reported. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 22:03, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

Proposed replacement for "This page contains...."

I propose that the third paragraph of the page, starting "This page contains information ...", be replaced with the following text:

Citation can be done in several ways and many variations, with the merits of each often ardently debated. Therefore Misplaced Pages has not set any standard method or style of citation, requiring only that citation be consistent within each article; this is the policy often cited as WP:CITEVAR. If you add citations to an existing article that has a consistent citation style, you must conform to that style. If you wish to change that style you must first seek the consensus of other editors. If you start a new article you may select a method and style as you prefer, but it is recommended that you stay with standard methods that other editors will understand. This guideline explains several ways of doing citation on Misplaced Pages.

~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 23:34, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

It's better to keep the writing tight. I think the current third paragraph is fine, and it makes clear that citations don't have to be written perfectly. SlimVirgin 23:59, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

I'm still thinking about the overall idea, but the phrasing of "you must conform to that style" is wrong. The citations must (eventually) conform; you need not be the person who makes them conform. This is particularly important because of the effect on new users: we should not be reverting their expansions or warning them about violations if they don't get the citations correctly formatted on the first try. Somebody needs to deal with the citation formatting before the WP:DEADLINE, but it doesn't matter who does it or how soon it happens. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:55, 5 June 2013 (UTC)

I actually agree with you somewhat. In particular, "must" seems rather strong (I faintly recall there was some discussion of this way, way back); "should" is probably better. But there is a fundamental problem in this idea of "you need not bother doing it right because surely someone else will fix it." (Yes, not exactly what you said, but allow me a little artistic license here, as that is the way it often turns out.) It gives free license to people who won't do citations (in any form). As to new editors that may have something to contribute but are not yet acquainted with the details of citation: I don't object to adding something about doing what one can, but we can't just leave it at that. And certainly experienced editors should not be allowed to evade WP:CITEVAR on the grounds that someone else can cleanup. Would you care to propose such additional text? ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 21:24, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

We can't prevent people adding citations in whatever way they feel is easiest for them, and indeed we want to encourage that. All we can ask is that they allow others to make them consistent, and that they give consideration to making them consistent when they first add them (if they know how to). SlimVirgin 22:10, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

So you are saying that WP:CITEVAR is entirely optional? That those of us who would like citation to be consistent are free to make it so, but no one else need bother to do so? ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 22:46, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

WP:CITEVAR is not a policy, it is part of a "content guideline" and it says "editors should attempt to follow" what it says (with further qualifications). In saying "Editors should not attempt to change an article's established citation style" it is certainly recommending that you should make an effort to fit in with what is there already. I wouldn't describe that as "entirely optional" but neither is it a breach of policy (or necessarily of the guideline) to fail to do that. On the other hand, there is no requirement or advice whatever that you should go around making existing citations compatible within articles (though it says that to do so is helpful). If you want to do that, it's great. But that aspect is entirely optional. Thincat (talk) 23:14, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

So the bottom line for CITEVAR is: ... entirely optional. Right? ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 20:36, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

JJ, I think your approach here isn't helpful. You know that CITEVAR isn't optional within this guideline, but you also know that whether to follow the guideline is optional, and that disputes about it can go either way. The point of CITEVAR is to say to editors: (a) if you know what you're doing, and (b) if you want to be decent to your fellow editors, then (c) please follow the existing style, and (d) if you don't or can't at least let others fix it. SlimVirgin 20:53, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

I do not see where CITEVAR (as has been interpreted) is anything but optional. That consistency is nice, but someone else will clean up after you. By the way, catch the related discussion at WT:V (skip down to the end). ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 22:51, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

CITEVAR is exactly as optional as the entire rest of the guideline. But rather than us all repeating this again, why don't you go read Misplaced Pages talk:Citing sources/Archive 33#Reverts_based_on_Citation_variation, where we told you exactly the same thing at length just a few months ago? WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:11, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

If it helps, I think of this as being rather like driving a car. There are some rules which are absolute - you don't drive on the wrong side of the road, for example, even when you're a learner. On the wiki, you don't vandalism articles - doesn't matter who you are, even if you're new. There are some guidelines which are important, but are about what people should do. You should drive your car, for example, at an adequate speed. If you consistently drive well below the speed limit unnecessarily in the UK, causing problems for others, some other road users will eventually start to honk their horns, shout, gesture rudely and get angry with you. Eventually, some foolish ones will take risks and try to overtake. But it's not illegal to drive slowly on most roads. Learner drivers do it all the time, and we don't honk our horns at them - we know they're learning. Lost drivers will also do it, as they try to work out where they are. CITEVAR is just like that - you should follow it, and there are likely consequences if you don't - but it is not an absolute rule. Hchc2009 (talk) 06:56, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

I fully agree about not yelling at newbies. But! we also have non-newbie editors who simply refuse to bother with any kind of adequate citation, who persist in driving down the wrong side of the road (and throwing beer bottles out the window), who accept no responsibility for fixing anything. Consequences? Nope, haven't seen any. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 19:10, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

If your idea of "adequate citation" is "properly formatted exactly the way I would have done it myself", then you're right: failing to type out a full, properly formatted citation is not a blockable offense. If your idea of "adequate citation" is "can't even be bothered to add a bare URL for material that absolutely requires a citation", then you're wrong, and, if you want proof that your personal experience is incomplete, then I suggest that you go ask Kww about how many people he's personally blocked for this. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:21, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

The latter of course. And thanks for the suggestion. Hopefully I'll remember it the next time the issue comes up. Allowing that my personal experience is incomplete, I am still inclined towards having something to the effect that the "newbie exception" isn't a free ride for violating CITEVAR. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 22:46, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

I think this is a bad idea. The priories expressed are wrong. "What matters most is that you provide enough information to identify the source." is true, and established consensus. But this proposed wording would violate that consensus and make deleting a cite seem acceptable solely because its formatting is inconsistent or bad. It isn't acceptable. And... --Elvey (talk) 22:24, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

Dubious

... Speaking of a "standard method or style of citation, I just added a {{dubious}} tag, and that's why I'm here. It seems like I hardly see these (short citations with footnotes) any more, and citation templates are used most. Is that because I'm not editing a representative article sample? --Elvey (talk) 22:24, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

Short refs are common, Elvey. They mean you don't have to keep repeating the full cite. So you say once (in the references section, or on first reference in the notes section): Smith, John. Name of Book. Name of Publisher, 2013. And thereafter Smith 2013. SlimVirgin 03:32, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

I agree that the "standard methods" bit is wrong. Editors may make up whatever style they want, even if nobody else has ever done anything similar before.

Short cites are common in the single instance of lengthy works being used repeatedly (so that you need to vary the page numbers). Most of our articles don't use long works at all, much less repeatedly. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:05, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

Shortened footnotes are pretty common. If you are really interested, you could go through Category:Author-date citation templates and total up the transclusions. --  Gadget850 15:36, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

I very frequently see short cites being used in featured articles because books are often used there as reference sources and there are many precise citations. Also, the editing is technically to a high standard and care has been taken over presentation. Regarding your edit summary about short cites becoming less popular than citation templates. These aspects are not really in competition. Short cites may be done using templates (Template:sfn, for example) and the full cites they point to may also be done with or without templates. Thincat (talk) 21:13, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

I think I know what short citations are and this edit I had just made shows me fixing problems with Harvard and named references! A reference I added there is "<ref name="Guibault 2006 xx" />{{rp|1}}" and according to short citations, that's NOT a 'short citation', even though it's a citation that's short. That suggests a confusion over terms that's creating an apparent disagreement. Per SlimVirgin's definition, OTOH, what I added IS a short citation. As I see it, both definitions of short citation can't be right. --Elvey (talk) 19:53, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

It looks like I didn't express myself clearly. (Sorry!) First: the text I'm challenging says "most Misplaced Pages editors use short citations in footnotes." It's the word MOST that I'm challenging. Second: When I wrote "citation templates" I meant to refer more specifically to the use of {{Cite}}, so Thincat: short cites as defined at WP:CITESHORT and use of {{Cite}} are in competition. Certainly short cites are still 'common', but that's a far cry from the claim that 'most' editors use them. If 'most' is to stay, it needs to be verifiable, and I'd bet it isn't. "Misplaced Pages editors commonly use..." would be something of an improvement. But if we don't know what is most common, we mustn't claim to. --Elvey (talk) 19:53, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

Ideas for moving forward :
A) (revised) Change the definitions in the article and at WP:CITESHORT and Shortened footnotes as needed to clearly include the style of the citation I added (named references) in their explanations for how to make short citations.
B) Change what we say here to be true/verifiable without such changes, while referring to the MOST common citation style.
OR C) Change what we say here to "...use short citations or named references ..." --Elvey (talk) 19:53, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

Elvey does not understand what a "short citation" is. But that goes precisely to the point I have been trying to make, and I believe he is trying to make: the confusion over terms endemic in this corner of Misplaced Pages. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 20:19, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

(Such a kind, helpful, constructive comment, JJ. Well done.</sarcasm>) Really? Precisely what part of "A reference I added there is "<ref name="Guibault 2006 xx" />{{rp|1}}" and according to short citations, that's NOT a 'short citation', even though it's a citation that's short." do you disagree with? --Elvey (talk) 21:12, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

Elvey, you need to read the whole sentence. It does not say "most Misplaced Pages editors use short citations". It says "When an article cites many different pages from the same source, most Misplaced Pages editors use short citations". See the difference? "Most editors" don't use short citations because "most editors" never cite many different pages from the same source. But when an article cites many different pages from the same source, {{sfn}} gets used slightly more than twice as often as {{rp}}, and plain hand-formatted short cites are even more common than that. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:26, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

If I may: since this section isn't trying to limit or reinforce one way or the other (is it?), could all parties be made happy by replacing "most editors" with "some editors"? -- JHunterJ (talk) 20:41, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

What makes you think I didn't read the whole sentence that I quoted from? I don't think it's true that "When an article cites many different pages from the same source most Misplaced Pages editors use {{sfn}}" (Note: I changed the end of the sentence to make it clear what I'm referring to.) Your evidence doesn't support the claim that it does. What I see most often when an article cites many different pages from the same source is that Misplaced Pages editors use {{cite}} (including {{cite web}}...), but unfortunately, don't use {{rp}}, but rather use multiple long citations to the same work. (I assume these couldn't become FAs unless improved, but the logical way to improve them would be to use {{rp}}, not {{sfn}}.) --Elvey (talk) 22:26, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

CITESHORT does not limit the concept of short citations to uses of {{sfn}}. We define short cites at the top of the guideline, and we explicitly say that there are multiple methods of creating them. Using {{cite}} to produce a short citation is one of many options.

I agree with you that some articles that use one source only a couple of times will repeat the full citation, but that is not a case of "many different pages". I've yet to see someone repeat a full citation two dozen times in an article; have you? Sometimes the repetition is even deliberate (e.g., someone who hates named refs, or who is worried that the other citation will get removed and leave a short cite with no full citation to support it). But it is not what most editors choose. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:00, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

I didn't say it did limit the concept that way. Do you claim that CITESHORT clearly includes, in the concept of short citations, cite or rp style refs? Where? I find this: "Forms of short citations used include author-date referencing (APA style, Harvard style, or Chicago style), and author-title or author-page referencing (MLA style or Chicago style)." (It doesn't explicitly exclude them; I'm not saying that. But when you include a long list of them and don't include cite, what's one to think?) 24x? Straw man. IIRC, we have a bot that recovers if someone deletes the master copy of a named ref used multiple times. Oh and you say, "Using {{cite}} to produce a short citation is one of many options." So then what's wrong with option A, above? --Elvey (talk) 22:26, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I've lost track of what "option A, above" is. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:10, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Here's the actual definition from the guideline:

A short citation is an inline citation that identifies the place in a source where specific information can be found, but without giving full details of the source – these will have been provided in a full bibliographic citation either in an earlier footnote, or in a separate section.

I don't really see anything in this statement that says {{rp}} is absolutely not a short citation. After all, the page number is "an inline citation that identifies the place in a source where specific information can be found, but without giving full details of the source". The system might be better described as a hybrid, with the {{rp}} part being the "short" part and the little blue number leading to the "full" part. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:35, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

Elvey: if you want to argue that there is a confusion of terms here (no?) then I am in agreement with you. But regarding your own evident and demonstrated confusion I concur with WhatamIdoing. And that in itself should be a strong sign that you are way off base. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 22:37, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

Elvey, a short cite is just that: a citation that has been shortened. So it could be Smith 2013; Smith 2013, p. 1; Smith 2013, chapter 1; Name of Book; Name of Book (2013); Name of newspaper, 9 June 2013; and so on. And these can be produced with or without citation templates.

The full citation is then given somewhere in the article, usually only once, and usually at the end in the References section. SlimVirgin 00:07, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

One point that seems to be confusing me is "named refs". Rhabdomyolysis uses named refs. It does not contain a single short citation. Breast cancer also uses named refs. Breast_cancer#cite_ref-Olson102_116-0 is an example of a named ref that is a short citation and is reused; Breast_cancer#cite_note-Olson1-117 is a named ref that is a short citation and is not reused. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:10, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

Issue with multiple refs to the same source (Restatement of)

Here's a different problem, or the same problem, stated a completely different way, depending on how you see it:
Often, an editor improving an article using {{cite}}-family citations (typically Citation Style 1) comes to https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:IBID#Citing_multiple_pages_of_the_same_source, and wants to know how to cite the same source multiple times, what they see is:

When an article cites many different pages from the same source, most Misplaced Pages editors use short citations in footnotes. Other methods include short citations in parenthesis and the template {{rp}}.

So of course they are going to click on short citations - and find no instructions on how to make short citations to the a source already used in the article and cited with a {{cite}}-family citation. That's a problem. --Elvey (talk) 22:34, 9 June 2013 (UTC)

Seeming contradiction between sections

Our "convenience links" section says that it's helpful to provide links to content that's being hosted by reliable third parties with permission. Two sections later, we're told not to provide links to content being hosted by databases, even though they're reliable third parties that host with permission — for example, JSTOR isn't the original publisher of any of the journals that it hosts. At the same time, anybody can read the first page of most JSTOR articles for free, so this section effectively permits JSTOR just a few sentences after telling us not to link it under normal circumstances. All that being said, why would it ever be a problem to have a link to JSTOR or other databases in a citation? Lots of people have access to major databases, so including a link is clearly helpful for them, while it provides no problems whatsoever to people who don't have access to major databases. Imagine that I'm reading an article about a topic I've never heard of, and I want to see the source — it's much simpler if you give me the JSTOR link than if you don't, since I'll know exactly where to go instead of going to the library, searching ProQuest, searching Ebscohost, and finally finding it in JSTOR. Nyttend (talk) 01:47, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

I think you're right. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:13, 10 June 2013 (UTC)

I agree. The second section was added here in December 2010, without anyone noticing (including the editor who added it) that there was an inconsistency with another section, which is easily done. I wouldn't mind seeing the whole paragraph removed. SlimVirgin 01:50, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

I don't see the contradiction it generally is not important to cite a database such as ProQuest, EbscoHost, or JStor (see the list of academic databases and search engines) or to link to such a database requiring a subscription or a third party's login. does not say don't. Don't add a URL that has a part of a password embedded in the URL I think is correct advise. -- PBS (talk) 07:30, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

There is no reason to specifically discourage links to JStor el al., as long as enough information is given to locate the article without the use of the database. Indeed it is ironic to discourage providing a link in these cases, when (1) the paper can be found in print as well and (2) the URL is not likely to expire, when we make no effort to discourage links to news stories that are only published online and which may become unavailable (or subscription only) at any point in time. — Carl (CBM · talk) 15:53, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Inconsistent citation style (course of procedure?)

In my effort to improve consistency of citations, I came across this article, which had a fairly inconsistent citation style: some refs used Harvard style, some Chicago style, some used citation templates, others didn't. The "Further reading" section itself had five different styles of citation going on. So then I did what according to WP:CITEVAR is "generally considered helpful": imposing one style on an article with incompatible citation styles: an improvement because it makes the formatting consistent. I did this by gradually implementing citation templates, until my efforts were reverted by User:ColonelHenry.

So far, so good. I brought this topic to the article's talk page, in order to find consensus. Whether we implemented the citation style I suggested, or some other, was to be determined by discussion, I believed. However, on insistence of ColonelHenry and User:CBM, the citation style did not merit any debate, because—according to CBM's interpretation of WP:CITE—if "anyone objects", it must not be changed. I asked CBM on where WP:CITE states the existence of such a veto right, but he did not reply.

So my question is: what is the course of procedure in cases like this? Is the citation style, like any other aspect of an article, subject to potential debate? Can it be changed after consensus has been established? --bender235 (talk) 17:18, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

The article in question was established with references that do not use citation templates. The merits of citation templates have been discussed endlessly on this page, and we all know it is an unsolvable disagreement whether citation templates are better or worse than non-templated citations. As an experienced editor, Bender235 should have known it wasn't appropriate to convert all the references in the article he had never touched before to use citation templates. More importantly, when someone objected to the change, he should have left the page as it was, instead of badgering the user about why the user objected . This looks to me like an example of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT with respect to preserving the established citation styles of articles. A basic moral of this page is that editors should not have to spend time defending the absence of citation templates in an article. — Carl (CBM · talk) 17:28, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Contrary to what CBM claims, the article in question did use citation templates before, although only in some references. Overall, it had an inconsistent citation style. One could argue whether it would be better to use a consistent citation style w/ or w/out templates, but that should be subject to a debate. I don't see any reason why some mysterious veto rule should apply.

Also contrary to what CBM claims, I did in fact "leave the page as it was", not starting an edit-war or anything. Instead, I turned to the article's talk page, starting a discussion on how a consistent citation style for the article in question should look like (what CBM calls "badgering" is what other Wikipedians refer to as WP:Discussion). However, like stated above, I was told that changes of citation style were not a legitimate subject for debate on Misplaced Pages according to some unwritten rule, apparently.

To be clear: this is not about the use of citation templates. I could have implemented a consistent citation style on the article in question w/out using templates, too. It would have been the same kind of edit: a user changing the current citation style. --bender235 (talk) 17:50, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

I think that "if anyone objects" is a bit strong. Certainly my strong objections to a change at Breast cancer awareness were overruled, mostly by people who hadn't contributed even a paragraph to it.

However, it appears from this discussion that the question might be more about whether to use citation templates, not about whether it's good to have one style. There should be, at minimum, one style in the output. (Whether the underlying source code needs to "match" is not actually something we've had very strong agreement about in the past.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:35, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

It was not about whether to use citation templates, but rather on how the course of procedure looks if one suggest a change in citation style. Should it be possible to discuss such things on the respective article's talk page, or is it considered "badgering"? Again, it is not about citation templates. User:ColonelHenry did exactly what I did, only without templates: he chose a citation style, and imposed it on the entire article. Should his edit now be reverted, too? --bender235 (talk) 20:00, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

The title of the section you started on the talk page was "citation templates" and the question you asked was "Per WP:BRD: is there any reason why this article should not use citation templates?". The substantive objection to the changes you made was that you converted the article to use citation templates. So I think it is safe to say that the discussion is about whether to use citation templates. — Carl (CBM · talk) 20:08, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

I distinguish between the discussion here and the discussion at article's talk page, and so should you. Regardless, would you please answer these questions:

(i) Are you aware of the fact that the article in question did use citation templates before, although only in some references?

(ii) Had I imposed a style similar to the one produced by citation templates, without actually using citation templates, would things be different? --bender235 (talk) 20:21, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

The article was established without citation templates; here is a typical version from the end of 2011 . That is what matters for WP:CITEVAR. I believe one editor first added some templated citations in an edit in 2012 . The correct response, if you had adequately investigated the page history before editing, would have been to replace the templates with non-templated references, bringing the citations into agreement with the previously established style. And, yes, if you have simply tidied up the references some without also converting them all to templates, removing templates that were mistakenly added, it is not clear that anyone would have objected. But you know all this already. — Carl (CBM · talk) 20:28, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

The fact that you arbitrarily pick one version of the article as "typical", and some other as atypical, is somewhat amusing considering the nature of Misplaced Pages.

Also, I'm puzzled by your notion of an "established style" you claim this article had, because it did not. As I pointed out on the article's talk page, there were five different styles alone in the seven entry "further reading" section. The only thing they had in common was they were obviously not produced by an underlying template.

So when you claim the "correct response" to one editor's addition of a source with citation templates would have been to remove those templates and to transform those citations to the "established style", everyone but you wonders which style that ought to be? I suppose anything but template, but that's actually not a citation style, but a paradigm.

By the way, I'm curious, if it isn't actually the citation style those templates produce (since you said same style sans templates would be okay), what is it that makes you oppose them? --bender235 (talk) 21:05, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

If you couldn't tell what the established style was, then you weren't really in a position to unilaterally edit the citations until you did more investigation. But the more important thing in your behavior on the article was that, even after an editor objected to the introduction of templates, you continued to press for them. The direct language of CITEVAR is, "if there is disagreement about which style is best, defer to the style used by the first major contributor". Since the article existed for years without citation templates in the footnotes (until 2012), whatever the style used by the first major contributor was, it certainly didn't involve templates in the footnotes. — Carl (CBM · talk) 21:08, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Sorry if I wasn't clear enough in my choice of words, but this article did not have an established style. The only thing "established" was that it used (almost) no citation templates. But other than that, every citation looked different in terms of punctuation, etc. Even now, after one user imposed his citation style onto the article (which he, unlike me, is entitled to), the article's citation style is far from being consistent. I just pointed out that there are still five different versions of style.

• (i) Locke, Frederick W. "Dante and T. S. Eliot's Prufrock." in Modern Language Notes. (1963) 78:51-59.

Period after article title, period after publication title, no comma after year.

• (ii) Stepanchev, Stephen. "The Origin of J. Alfred Prufrock" in Modern Language Notes. (1951), 66:400-401.

No period after article title, period after publication title, comma after year.

• (iii) Soles, Derek. "The Prufrock Makeover" in The English Journal (1999), 88:59-61.

No period after article title, no period after publication title, comma after year.

• (iv) Luthy, Melvin J. "The Case of Prufrock's Grammar" in College English (1978) 39:841-853.

No period after article title, no period after publication title, no comma after year.

• (v) Sorum, Eve. "Masochistic Modernisms: A Reading of Eliot and Woolf." Journal of Modern Literature. 28 (3), (Spring 2005) 25-43.

Meh.

For journal articles alone! There are more inconsistencies if you also include books and book chapters. So, I'm asking again: which one do you think is the "established style" of this article, and how do you determine? Because I really have no clue how to determine that. --bender235 talk) 21:33, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Browse the page history until you find "the style used by the first major contributor". In this case I believe it is this edit: . — Carl (CBM · talk) 21:42, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Ah, I see. So it is like this:

• "On 'The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock'", from Blasing, Mutlu Konuk. 'American Poetry: The Rhetoric of Its Forms'. New Haven: Yale UP, 1987.

Then again, this one is totally different from the one that has recently been imposed by User:ColonelHenry.

• Blasing, Mutlu Konuk, "On 'The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock'", in American Poetry: The Rhetoric of Its Forms (New Haven: Yale University Press, 1987).

Can anyone revert his changes now, or is only User:Samael775 allowed to veto, according to your interpretation of the guidelines? --bender235 (talk) 21:48, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

At this point, I believe that your best option is to learn WP:How to lose with a little more grace, but CBM is essentially correct: the fact that the article was totally screwed up a couple of weeks ago does not mean that there never was "an established style", and even if there isn't, then which style to impose is not necessarily a first-come, first-served question (unless the article is so neglected that nobody actually cares). WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:26, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

Okay, so let's assume User:Samael775's citation style was the article's "established" one. Is it then any different to impose a completely new citation style, like ColonelHenry did, from imposing a completely new citation style with help of templates, like I did? To me, it is exactly the same. If you begin with:

• "On 'The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock'", from Blasing, Mutlu Konuk. 'American Poetry: The Rhetoric of Its Forms'. New Haven: Yale UP, 1987.

where is the difference between changing it to:

• Blasing, Mutlu Konuk, "On 'The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock'", in American Poetry: The Rhetoric of Its Forms (New Haven: Yale University Press, 1987).

or changing it to:

• Blasing, Mutlu Konuk (1987). "On 'The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock'". American Poetry: The Rhetoric of Its Forms. New Haven: Yale University Press.

Both is absolutely the same type of edit. I don't see any reason to treat them differently just because one used templates and one didn't. --bender235 (talk) 00:46, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

Bender, can you make the style consistent without using templates? It seems that would solve the problem (if I've read the above correctly). SlimVirgin 01:21, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

Sure, that would be easy to do. But then again, what's the point of doing that? Plus, it also eliminates one of the key features of citation templates: that is the creation of a hidden COinS element (check the source code behind the line I posted above), which is a machine-readable version of the citation. --bender235 (talk) 01:34, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

I took a look at the article, and this, for example, is the kind of edit CITEVAR seeks to avoid. Templates were added to manual cites that were already properly formatted, except perhaps for the occasional inconsistency, which can easily be fixed. Even after the templates were imposed, there were inconsistencies (at least one cite with pp, others without).

If the article is developed, the templates will introduce even more inconsistency, which is hard to fix (e.g. some templates put date in brackets after author, but date at the end if there is no author). And when there a lot of them, load time slows down. For all these reasons, CITEVAR asks people not to add them when there are manual refs that are properly formatted. SlimVirgin 01:45, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

@SV. It has been pointed out that the refs were inconsistently formatted, so in this case that argument can be placed to one side. Speed is not usually a consideration: do you have any figures for the load speed difference on an article like this? Citation templates do not introduce inconsistency as they are consistent. If the consistent positioning of dates in different places depending on whether an author is present is a concern to you then place to raise that is on the cite template core talk pages.

@CBM years ago I used not to use citation templates, mainly because I could not be bothered to learn the syntax of them, but having done so I think that the time was well spent. Are you really saying that if an article was created by copying EB1911 and a {{1911}} template was added at it creation in 2004, that today even though there is no text from EB1911 in the article (and none since 2006 when the {{1911}} template was removed) and every citation since has been formatted in a consistent style, someone is at liberty to insist that those citations are replaced with templates because back in 2004 the {{1911}} template was used?

@CBM, I have created many articles. Can I insist as the primary author that although I did not use to use citation templates when I wrote am article that article should be converted to use citation templates under "If you are the first contributor to add citations to an article, you may choose whichever style you think best for the article." That would seems like ownership to me.

@CBM, many of the citation templates add hidden categories to articles to aid maintenance, are you really saying that if a person adds text copied from the DNB they should not use the {{DNB}} template if there is no other citation template currently in use for other citations? If so why, as not doing so hinders development of the project?

-- PBS (talk) 13:12, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

This thread is about edits such as this. The article was established and well referenced without the use of citation templates from 2006 through mid 2012. The fact that there are minor inconsistencies between citations, or that someone might have accidentally used a citation templates in 2012 without looking to see if the were already present, are not sufficient justification for an editor to unilaterally convert the entire article to use citation templates. There are some particularly subtle points of CITEVAR that must be discussed on an article by article basis, but the particular case under discussion is not subtle and doesn't require solving them. — Carl (CBM · talk) 14:16, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

Leaving aside the fact that your notion of "minor inconsistencies between citations" is plain laughable, where was the "sufficient justification for an editor to unilaterally convert the entire article" to his citation style in this case? As you pointed out above, ColonelHenry's citation style wasn't the one originally used in this article. So when are you going to revert his edit? --bender235 (talk) 18:15, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

• Will you give it a rest already? The citation style generally in use before was largely Chicago, and as established it needed minor cleanup. MINOR. That's commas, making sure the dates are in the right place, parentheses (something Chicago's different versions is inconsistent on). I did that minor cleanup after your intolerably incessant whining. There's nothing that says someone can't do a minor cleanup when it is minor as was the case here. You changed it from non-template to template which is clearly discouraged by policy. That is put in very unambiguous language. There's a whole chasm of difference between what is reality and the nonsensical interpretation of events you are persistent in asserting. The fact that you are persist in being obtuse and not accepting this simple truth is wasting everyone's time here. MOVE ON ALREADY!!!!!!!!!!!!! Your continued persistence is becoming an affront to WP:DISRUPTPOINT that I'd applaud seeing you blocked. Seriously, MOVE ON. --ColonelHenry (talk) 03:36, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

I will move on. I agree with WhatamIdoing that I should "do something more useful than argue with stubborn people". It is obvious that you just hate citation templates for no rational reason (I asked you repeatedly to explain your objection, you answered with pure hatred). I realize you claim ownership over this article, and there's nothing I can do about it since you're backed by an administrator in CBM. I attempted to start a constructive disussion on Talk:The_Love_Song_of_J._Alfred_Prufrock, but I was rebuffed. I give up. Continue to add that wonky citation style you're favoring, I don't care anymore. The article is yours.

What I do care about, however, is that for the sake of Misplaced Pages we do get rid off this ridiculous misinterpretation of WP:CITEVAR, in which every citation style, no matter how different, is summed up as "non-templates style" and therefore considered "consistent". --bender235 (talk) 09:19, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

Thank you, I'm glad you decided FINALLY to move on. It isn't about ownership, it isn't about winning. I just wish you'd accept that policies likes WP:CITEVAR exist solely to keep people like you from aggravating other editors through such intransigently obstructive stances by which you INSISTED upon imposing your own desired personal style preferences and proceded to IGNORE voices (yes, including mine) who would work with you if you weren't so stubbornly INSISTENT, and where there were no reasonable circumstances demanding a NECESSITY to change things from non-templates to templates. I'll keep an eye on your contributions in light of this, and I'm sure others will too, as you've done this several times before (i.e. ignore WP:CITEVAR, etc.), and such continued action is potentially disruptive and pointy. --ColonelHenry (talk) 10:41, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

P.S. Sure, I can say I hate cite templates all I want. I am not compelled to like them. But, I'm open to a persuasive argument for cite templates and other templates (i.e. the usefulness of infoboxes if appropriate for a specific article) should one come up...however, no one in all my editing has offered me a persuasive argument to applaud their merits. When they do, I'll reconsider. Until then, I'll continue to hate cite templates. Based on your intransigence, Bender235, I don't like you either, but eventually when you stop being insistent and see the error of your ways, I could be persuaded otherwise.--ColonelHenry (talk) 11:54, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

The point of CITEVAR

The following comment is a perfect example of the reason we have CITEVAR, ENGVAR, and the other MOS policies about stability:

Find something more constructive to do with your time instead of making it harder for me to work on the things I want to work on. Instead of contributing to articles today as I planned (I wanted today to finish preparing List of colonial governors of New Jersey for WP:FLC), I've wasted hours bickering with you.

Experience shows that discussions about whether to use templates or not tend to go on without end, wasting large amounts of productivity, for no concrete benefit. Therefore, the policy is to simply leave some things as they are, rather than going around trying to convert articles from one optional method to another because of personal preference. — Carl (CBM · talk) 14:24, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

The problem you keep on ignoring is "leaving things as they are" would mean leaving an article with incomplete, inconsistent citations. However, citations are a key part of Misplaced Pages.

One way or another, this article needed a debate on how citations should consistently look like. Because there simply was no consistent citation style. There still is not (see above). So if in that debate a majority favored citation templates, why not implement them? --bender235 (talk) 17:01, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

...what's the point of doing that?

The point is to end the dispute so you can do something more useful than argue with stubborn people. If your efforts to add citation templates aren't wanted at that article, then feel free to either use a style that doesn't waste your time with arguing, or to let someone else clean up the mess. There are thousands of articles out there whose editors would be pleased to have your help. Why are you wasting your time on that particular one? WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:30, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

Because this sets a precedent. If CBM is allowed to continue to abuse CITEVAR in this blunt misinterpretation, it is bad for Misplaced Pages in the long run. For some reason, CBM is of the absurd believe that "no templates" qualifies as a "citation style", when in fact this is just bullshit. I'm sorry, but at this point I'm loosing my temper. See how he maliciously took ColonelHenry's quote out of context above: if you read the whole thread on ColonelHenry's talk page, you realize I approached him with good intent, asking whether I could help him with templates. I was answered with pure hatred. I was called "a dick" for pointing out that ColonelHenry's attempt to "make citations consistent" made the situation worse than it was before. And on top of it, CBM accused me of badgering. This is just evil. --bender235 (talk) 18:10, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

To be clear: the problem wasn't that ColonelHenry reverted my initial edits to the article. The problem was that after I started a discussion on the article's talk page in order to see what the consensus was, CBM immediately replied the potential addition of citation templates was no subject to be discussed, citing some obscure unwritten veto right entitled (for whatever reason) to ColonelHenry. It is that latter part I have a problem with. If there is consensus within the article's editor group to not use templates, I'm fine with that. But not based on some obscure ownership/veto right. --bender235 (talk) 18:33, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

No, the problem was ignoring whatever we said (WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT), stubbornly insisting on imposing your personal preferences on an article you don't do anything with and saying "well, I'll just bide my time and do it anyway." (comments on my talk page) Seriously, find something better and more constructive to do with your time than wasting mine and others time with a blatant disregard for WP:CITEVAR and WP:CITECONSENSUS. I'm not interested in wasting my time further with this nonsense. You've badgered me, you're continuing to badger CBM and others and refusing to move from your stubborn position, and you're ignoring plainly written policy and choosing to fight it out instead of moving on. There will be no consensus. Several of us don't agree, you won't budge...seriously, stop wasting your time, their time, my time, and find some place else you haven't contributed to yet where your services are appreciated.--ColonelHenry (talk) 21:32, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

Also, thank you for expecting me to assume good faith when you've had this discussion going two days now, bantered my name around, and yet haven't informed me of it (I had to find out from a friendly concerned email from one of the participants above). Quite disingenuous, I must say.--ColonelHenry (talk) 22:10, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

"stubbornly insisting on imposing your personal preferences on an article" is exactly what you did. As CBM pointed out, the original citation style look like this:

• "On 'The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock'", from Blasing, Mutlu Konuk. 'American Poetry: The Rhetoric of Its Forms'. New Haven: Yale UP, 1987.

You changed it to this:

• Blasing, Mutlu Konuk, "On 'The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock'", in American Poetry: The Rhetoric of Its Forms (New Haven: Yale University Press, 1987).

The problem isn't that you changed it (because everybody is allowed to do that). The problem is you claim to have a special right to finally decide, because you contributed to the article more than I did. With is nothing else but claim of ownership.

"You've badgered me, you're continuing to badger CBM and others and refusing to move from your stubborn position, and you're ignoring plainly written policy and choosing to fight it out instead of moving on."

See, the problem right from the beginning was the you claim there is "written policy" that gives you a veto right to determine this articles citation style, when there is not. CITEVAR does not say such thing anywhere.

"There will be no consensus. Several of us don't agree, you won't budge..."

As far as I see, on Talk:The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock, there's you and CBM in favor of your citation style, and then there's WikiParker and me in favor of mine. So your claim "there will be no consensus" is a bit far-fetched, isn't it?

"Also, thank you for haven't informed me of it"

I didn't thought it would be necessary since CBM told me to bring this question to WT:CITE (which is here) all the time. You followed our discussion, didn't you? --bender235 (talk) 07:31, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

Typically it's good form to advise other editors of a discussion elsewhere that involves their previous interaction on a topic. You failed to do so, but continued to banter my name around, which leads me to assume your act of bad faith. Thankfully someone saw fit to inform me.--ColonelHenry (talk) 11:31, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

I agree that this is the kind of discussion CITEVAR is meant to avoid. ColonelHenry wants to improve an article that needs improving, so please let him do it without sidetracking him. The refs appear to be consistent now, so there's no problem. SlimVirgin 22:59, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

He could continue to improve the article by adding content, and let others handle the copyediting, such as citation style. Wasn't this type of collaborative approach the original idea behind Misplaced Pages? --bender235 (talk) 07:33, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

yes, and WP:CITEVAR exists to prevent editors like you from showing up at an article only to dictate to the article's contributors your personal style preferences without any other contribution to it. You don't seem to grasp that the entire conversation hinges on the issue that an editor such as yourself is not supposed to UNILATERALLY switch style from non-template to template based on personal preferences--especially at an article you have had no involvement in. It is not a valid WP:BRD position. Who could care less if I used parentheses, or spelled out University Press instead of keeping the incorrect Yale UP, or that I evoked in instead of from--you are distracting from the main issue because you are WRONG on the main issue. That you're being obtuse is becoming disruptively pointy.--ColonelHenry (talk) 11:31, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

Now that I have had a chance to look at some of Bender235's recent contribs, he has made similar inappropriate changes to other articles such as and . The general principle of CITEVAR is that these changes should not be made in the first place. The same would apply if someone went around just removing templates from numerous articles, of course. — Carl (CBM · talk) 23:10, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

Do you think that the citations in those articles had a consistent style before the edits by Bender235? What evidence do you have that Bender235 edits were done "merely on the grounds of personal preference"? If not how does CITEVAR apply? -- PBS (talk) 07:24, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

I do those edits very frequently. What might surprise you is they are almost unanimously welcomed everywhere. In almost nine years at Misplaced Pages, I can remember only two case (including this one), in which my work had been reverted, and I remember both involving you.

Also, as an explanation: when I find an article that has various types of citation styles going on, like the ones above you mentioned, WP:CITEVAR actually encourages "imposing one style on an article with incompatible citation styles". That means, in any case, I'd have to pick one style over the others and implement it. And why then not use Harvard style via templates? --bender235 (talk) 07:31, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

CITEVAR certainly does not encourage taking an article with no citation templates at all, as the two above, finding some trivial difference between two citations, and using that as a pretext to convert the entire article to use citation templates. To put it very simply, so you cannot claim to be unaware of the rule any longer: do not convert articles don't use citation templates to use citation templates, and don't convert articles that do use citation templates so that they no longer use citation templates. CITEVAR encomasses other aspects of citation as well, but the use or non-use of templates is one of its core aspects. — Carl (CBM · talk) 09:26, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

Such rule does not exist. Regardless of your claims. I will not obey to a rule that only exists in your imagination. --bender235 (talk) 10:08, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

By the way: you're probably the only one who considered the differences in citation style in this article to be "trivial".

• McCoy, Kathleen, and Harlan, Judith. English Literature From 1785 (New York: HarperCollins, 1992), 265-66.
• Southam, B.C. A Guide to the Selected Poems of T.S. Eliot. Harcourt, Brace & Company, New York 1994, p. 45.

One uses brackets, the other doesn't. One has location: publisher, one has publisher, location.

Same goes for journal articles:

• Sorum, Eve. "Masochistic Modernisms: A Reading of Eliot and Woolf." Journal of Modern Literature. 28 (3): 25-43. Spring 2005.
• Walcutt, Charles Child. Eliot's "The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock". (1957). College English, 19, 71-72.

Just completely different. Only in your eyes these are consistent (since all are "non-template"). But that's just ridiculous. --bender235 (talk) 10:15, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

Well, Bender, when you bring 38 citations into conformity, anyone might miss one or two. BIG F&%$#@G DEAL. Seriously, you're wrong on the main issue (i.e. switching to templates unilaterally) so you'll now nitpick on an overlooked comma, etc. Give it up already. Seriously, my two-year old accepts when she's wrong and moves on. Move on.--ColonelHenry (talk) 11:38, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

Bender235, the articles linked to by CBM do not use Harvard citations. Harvard citations give a little information about the source in parentheses immediately after the statement supported, such as giving the author and year; full details of the source are given in a bibliography or equivalent section. Harvard citations can be accomplished with or without citation templates. Jc3s5h (talk) 10:00, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

I'm aware what Harvard citation is. The article in question used ColonelHenry's interpretation of Chicago style. --bender235 (talk) 10:08, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

Nothing is ever perfect, Bender, and typically when I do a massive overhaul of an article (as for several months I intend to do on Prufrock to bring it possibly to GA or FA status), the references are something that I fix or bring into conformity as I go along, and then check again after. Sorry, but while I was bringing them into conformity with minor changes (i.e. commas, date placement, parentheses, etc.) I didn't have a style guide next to me for reference and did it off the cuff. So, I concede, I might have missed a comma or not properly addressed the volume number. So, eventually, down the road, I'll repair the remaining stray comma issues as I go along. It is not of absolute necessity to rush to fix a benignly misplaced comma--sorry you consider it to be an impertinence, I consider it a petty distraction on your part to deflect from how wrong your main thesis is. But, I would reiterate: it is definitely not a necessity and indeed is quite the impertinence to waste everyone's time with a drastic and PRESUMPTUOUS non-template to template format changes against WP:CITEVAR, and to stubbornly insist upon it despite WP:CITEVAR.--ColonelHenry (talk) 11:20, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

It is not clear to my ColonelHenry why you do not use citation templates, or why you would object to someone else using them in this case. If you were to use citation templates when you do a "massive overhaul of an article" the you do not need to worry about "minor changes" of "commas, date placement, parentheses, etc." as that will be taken care of by the citation templates and you do not have to have a "have a style guide next " as that is done automatically by the templates. If you do use citation templates you will not miss a comma and volume numbers are just another parameter. So why do you not use citation templates? -- PBS (talk) 12:26, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

Cite templates are a bitch to edit around, moreso IMHO than ref tags. We each edit in our own way, and I find if there's an article with cite templates on a topic I'd like to edit, I find myself more often than not walking away from the article because of it. I find it easier to control and edit citations in ref tags. As SlimVirgin stated above, the cite templates are not consistent in results, and there's little control should they prove inconsistent in results. It's not a matter of not being familiar with them or the coding, I am quite familiar with them, I just find it more effective for me as an editor doing it manually.--ColonelHenry (talk) 12:34, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

RFC: Limit citation style choices to recognized guides

Please consider joining the feedback request service. An editor has requested comments from other editors for this discussion. This page has been added to the following list: Misplaced Pages style and naming When discussion has ended, remove this tag and it will be removed from the list. If this page is on additional lists, they will be noted below.

Should the sentence "Citation style should be based on a recognized system, such as Citation style 1, APA style, The Chicago Manual of Style, or The MLA Style Manual and editors should provide an HTML comment in the reference section indicating which method has been selected" be added to the beginning of WP:CITE#Variation in citation methods? Jc3s5h (talk) 23:19, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

Discussion of limiting citation style choices

As the originator of this disscussion, I favor the limitation because if a new editor wants to add a source of a different type from those already in the article, the new editor will not have any guidance on how to format the citation. Also, software such as Zotero is available to assist with most citation styles but not with an ad hoc style adopted for an individual article. Jc3s5h (talk) 23:19, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

• I am concerned that this would make editing more difficult for many non-academic editors, who often find "style guides" intimidating and cryptic. If we just reassure new editors that they can add the citation however they like, and someone else will fix it, that is easier for new editors. I am also concerned about how we would decide, for the millions of existing articles, which style should be used - the discussions to achieve that seem like an enormous loss of productivity. I have hundreds of articles on my watchlist, and I don't want to have to follow hundreds of discussions about which citation style is the best one for each article. That decision is not as easy as it might sound for articles that cross multiple disciplines. — Carl (CBM · talk) 23:33, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose. So far as I know, the citation templates don't use a recognized style, so this proposal would preclude their use. Editors often develop their own style by adapting one of the major ones. The principle of CITEVAR is that internal consistency is what matters. So long as readers can understand the citations, there's no need to be rigid about carefully following an outside style. SlimVirgin 23:53, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

• We shouldn't discourage users from adding appropriate information by making reference citations hard to understand, much less fixed to a limited # of styles. Even an IP adding information with a bare link is fine. The "fixing" of citations towards a unified format within an article is part of general cleanup towards GA/FA, but should not be forced in progress, and this would be a step towards limiting that. --MASEM (t) 00:01, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose. In addition to reasons already mentioned, at least one of those style manuals (Chicago) does not itself prescribe a single style, or even a limited set of them. Instead, it gives several models, and goes on to say much the same thing as SlimVirgin: internal consistency is what matters. Anyone who has worked in the publishing business will be aware that, despite allegiance pledged to this or that style manual, every publisher has got its own house style that deviates to some degree from the "standard", and the different editors working for a single publisher produce further minor variations even within that house style, while at the same time trying to remain consistent within the book or journal in question. Why should Misplaced Pages pretend to be able to enforce a uniformity that does not exist anywhere else?—Jerome Kohl (talk) 00:06, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

• Perhaps if it were rephrased that policy prefers and urges editors to use those selected styles instead of the more imperative sounding suggestion of should use them. Given that non-academic editors will be less familiar with the structures, there should be an option for "if you need help formatting references contact..." and nudge them to a project of editors who are willing to help out in formatting citations (and that each participating editor would be available for help with whichever style).--ColonelHenry (talk) 00:54, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
• The templates have now been codified to form styles: Citation Style 1, Citation Style 2 are the most used, then there are LSA, Citation Style Vancouver and more. The problem is that as you get into the specialized articles, citation consistency breaks down. For example, {{cite court}} uses Bluebook style and is often used in legal-related articles with Citation Style 1 even though they are different styles. See Category:Citation templates for more. --  Gadget850 01:05, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

• Gadget, if you could do something to make the date formatting consistent in templates, that would help a lot. Currently, the date is in brackets after the author's name if there's a byline, and at the end, and not in brackets, if there isn't. So even if someone is using the templates consistently, the end result is inconsistent. SlimVirgin 01:15, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
  • "This article uses cite_xxx templates only" is a consistent style. Consistency does not have to mean consistency of output - using the same family of templates for all citations is an acceptable form of consistency. The point of using templates, after all, is to avoid having to micromanage the way the citations are displayed. — Carl (CBM · talk) 10:18, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

• Endorse what SlimVirgin says. This point has been made over and over again but nobody ever does anything about it. -- Alarics (talk) 07:10, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

• This was discussed at Help talk:Citation Style 1#Date location and the result seemed to be those who maintain the templates wouldn't do anything until there was a proposal. So I'm making the proposal at Help talk:Citation Style 1#RFC: Consistent date location. Jc3s5h (talk) 10:41, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

• Gadget, Chicago (16th ed., sec. 14.281–3) suggests mixing Bluebook citations with the styles Chicago normally uses when an article is not predominantly a legal article, but cites a significant number of legal or public works. So having templates that produce different formats for legal vs. other works is not unprecedented. Jc3s5h (talk) 01:43, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose Internal consistency is the key. -- Avi (talk) 01:45, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

• Internal consistency of an ad hoc style is difficult if there are many sources, many of which may be unfamiliar to an editor new to the article. Suppose most of the sources are journal articles, but the new editor wants to cite a TV documentary. Will the new editor be able to spot the one TV documentary that has already been cited, and follow that format, or will the new editor inadvertently create a second TV documentary format? But if it is a recognized style, there are indices, tables of contents, software, and web searches all waiting to help the editor find a suitable format for the citation. Jc3s5h (talk) 10:05, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

• Internal consistency of an ad hoc style is impossible. Will not happen. That's why we let people add sources in whatever citation style they want, and some time later, some other editor will clean up the mess and impose a consistent citation style. Always happened this way. --bender235 (talk) 10:22, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

• Comment: I am, too, not in favor of dictating a number of citation styles to use, but I disagree with the arguments above. The "unfamiliarity" of new (non-academic) editors with citation styles is not a problem at all. Because it is not their duty to create a perfectly styled article off the cuff, and never has been. There is a collaborative approach to Misplaced Pages. If someone creates and article and uses a shaky citation style, and somebody else contributes to the article with a complete different citation style, it's not a problem at all, because at some point a third editor will show up and copy-edit. For example the members of WikiProject Citation Clean-up. --bender235 (talk) 08:44, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

RFC: Consistent date location in citation templates

Please see Help talk:Citation Style 1#RFC: Consistent date location where I ask if the location of the date in the most popular citation templates should always be consistent. At present, the date is immediately after the authors if authors are given in the citation, but near the end if not. Jc3s5h (talk) 10:44, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

This is something to raise on the template pages for cs1. Fifelfoo (talk) 10:52, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

If the maintainers of the citation templates are not willing to maintain them as a set and accept requests in a central location then they do not form a consistent style and should not be allowed. Jc3s5h (talk) 11:00, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

1. Kilpatrick, Carroll (November 18, 1973). "Nixon tells editors, 'I'm not a crook'". The Washington Post.

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