Talk:Mahatma Gandhi: Difference between revisions

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	] (]) 13:44, 2 October 2009 (UTC)		] (]) 13:44, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

			== Abstinence ==

			Shreevatsa, I am reverting your change. I do not see how WP:UNDUE works here. These are not minority point of view. Gandhi was always truthful and explicit about what he was doing. I do not like to indulge in an edit-war, please explain the if you like to change further.

			Also some important information about saraladevi, (Gandhi himself admitted to have come close to have sex with her) etc has been removed by your "trimming".

			Also the paragraph fits well in criticism section, as it has been explicitly stated that people (including some followers) criticize Gandhi for sleeping naked with young women.

			The paragraph has indeed been copy pasted from an older source and needs cleaning.

			Some part of it may fit better to "Brahmacharya" section, as you have done. However, it should not be done in the expense of information.

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Talk:Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi/archivebox

A fact from this article was featured on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the On this day section on March 18, 2004, March 18, 2005, January 30, 2006, March 18, 2006, January 30, 2007, March 18, 2007, January 30, 2008, and January 30, 2009.

Some vandals have removed the part on Gandhi's experiments with brahmacharya.

The original article had the following section in it:

Towards the end of his life, it became public knowledge that Gandhi had been sharing his bed for a number of years with young women. He explained that he did this for bodily warmth at night and termed his actions as "nature cure". Later in his life he started experimenting with brahmacharya in order to test his self control. His letter to Birla in April, 1945 referring to 'women or girls who have been naked with me' indicates that several women were part of his experiments. Sex became the most talked about subject matter by Gandhi after ahimsa (non-violence) and increasingly so in his later years. He devoted five full editorials in Harijan discussing the practice of brahmacharya.

As part of these experiments, he initially slept with his women associates in the same room but at a distance. Afterwards he started to lie in the same bed with his women disciples and later took to sleeping naked alongside them . According to Gandhi active-celibacy meant perfect self control in the presence of opposite sex. Gandhi conducted his experiments with a number of women such as Abha, the sixteen year old wife of his grand-nephew Kanu Gandhi. Gandhi acknowledged "that this experiment is very dangerous indeed", but thought "that it was capable of yielding great results". His nineteen year old grand-niece, Manu Gandhi, too was part of his experiments. Gandhi had earlier written to her father, Jaisukhlal Gandhi, that Manu had started to share his bed so that he may "correct her sleeping posture". In Gandhi's view experiment of sleeping naked with Manu in Noakhali would help him in contemplating upon Hindu-Muslim unity in India before partition and ease communal tensions. Gandhi saw himself as a mother to these women and would refer to Abha and Manu as "my walking sticks".

Gandhi called Sarladevi, a married woman with children and a devout follower, his "spiritual wife". He later said that he had come close to having sexual relations with her. He had told a correspondent in March, 1945 that "sleeping together came with my taking up of bramhacharya or even before that"; he said he had experimented with his wife "but that was not enough". Gandhi felt satisfied with his experiments and wrote to Manu that "I have successfully practiced the eleven vows taken by me. This is the culmination of my striving for last thirty six years. In this yajna I got a glimpse of the ideal truth and purity for which I have been striving".

Gandhi had to take criticism for his experiments by many of his followers and opponents. His stenographer, R. P. Parasuram, resigned when he saw Gandhi sleeping naked with Manu. Gandhi insisted that he never felt aroused while he slept beside her, or with Sushila or Abha. "I am sorry" Gandhi said to Parasuram, "you are at liberty to leave me today." Nirmal Kumar Bose, another close associate of Gandhi, parted company with him in April, 1947 post Gandhi's tour of Noakhali, where some sort of altercation had taken place between Gandhi and Sushila Nayar in his bedroom at midnight that caused Gandhi to slap his forehead. Bose had stated that the nature of his experiments in bramhacharya still remained unknown and unstated.

N. K. Bose, who stayed close to Gandhi during his Noakhali tour, testified that "there was no immorality on part of Gandhi. Moreover Gandhi tried to conquer the feeling of sex by consciously endeavouring to convert himself into a mother of those who were under his case, whether men or women". Dattatreya Balkrishna Kalelkar, a revolutionary turned disciple of Gandhi, used to say that Gandhi's "relationships with women were, from beginning to end, as pure as mother's milk". with the references being:

37 ^ Birkett, Dea; Susanne Hoeber Rudolph, Lloyd I Rudolph. Gandhi: The Traditional Roots of Charisma. Orient Longman, 56. ISBN 0002160056.

38 ^ Caplan, Pat; Patricia Caplan (1987). The Cultural construction of sexuality. Routledge, 278. ISBN 0415040132.

39 ^ a b Parekh, Bhikhu C. (1999). Colonialism, Tradition and Reform: An Analysis of Gandhi's Political Discourse. Sage, 210. ISBN 0761993835.

40 ^ Kumar, Girja (1997). The Book on Trial: Fundamentalism and Censorship in India. Har-Anand Publications, 98. ISBN 8124105251.

41 ^ a b c Tidrick, Kathryn (2007). Gandhi: A Political and Spiritual Life. I.B.Tauris, 302–304. ISBN 1845111664.

42 ^ Tidrick, Kathryn (2007). Gandhi: A Political and Spiritual Life. I.B.Tauris, 160. ISBN 1845111664.

43 ^ a b Wolpert, Stanley (2001). Gandhi's Passion: The Life and Legacy of Mahatma Gandhi. Oxford University Press, 226–227. ISBN 019515634X.

44 ^ Kumar, Girja (1997). The Book on Trial: Fundamentalism and Censorship in India. Har-Anand Publishers, 73-107. ISBN 8124105251.

45 ^ Ghose, Sankar (1991). Mahatma Gandhi. Allied Publishers, 356. ISBN 8170232058. Gandhi student2 (talk) 15:00, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

It seems particularly important, with biographic pages under lock and Ghandi being on the front page of Google, that this particular gem be restored. It seems curious this is missing with a lock in place anyway. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.176.78.254 (talk) 19:40, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

The above discussion should be included. I would do that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.103.235.148 (talk) 01:18, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

the almost total lack of Leo Tolstoy on this page

It's very odd to me that Leo Tolstoy gets one mention (That I noticed, anyway), in a throwaway at the end of the article. He's not listed as an influence in the infobox, and the profound influence he had on a young Gandhi is not mentioned in the article itself. The two wrote to each other a great deal near the end of Tolstoy's life, and The Kingdom of God is Within You, and the long letters, presumably (not presumably - Gandhi said they did) had a huge influence on the Indian. You'll note that Gandhi stresses non-resistance to violence above anything else. This is the key to his entire program. This was also the key to Tolstoy's whole program, and was his real preoccupation - and he was just as rigid about it as Gandhi. This is not a coincidence. Gandhi follows in direct descent of influence from the great man Tolstoy, and I think anyone reading this page to understand him would benefit from knowing so. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.108.87.100 (talk) 13:54, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Please do not put our national leader's birth place as british india and the British flag, I feel it is very disgusting. I could not change the Mahatma Gandhi's page, please delete it

Please do not put our national leader's birth place as british india and the British flag, I feet it is very disgusting. I could not change in the Mahatma Gandhi's page, please delete it. Please accept it is very hurting to our pride,

will you accept if somebody puts your national leader george washington was born in british America, but even if you accept it, it may be because racially you are one and same.

But it is not in our case. It is not out of enmity or hate I say this, but please change British India, it is very disgusting.

please do change it —Preceding unsigned comment added by Narayang1975 (talk • contribs) 15:31, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Err it was British India - this is historical fact, also the page on George Washington does indeed say Colony of Virginia, British America. Pahari Sahib 15:46, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Prior to the British arriving in India it was called "India" or "Hindustan." George Washington was born in British America because America became the United States of America AFTER the British had been there. India was India prior to the British arriving therefore Gandhi was born in Gujarat, India. It should be changed. Unity717 (talk) 20:50, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Isn't it a bit strong to say that it's "disgusting". That's kinda offensive towards British people.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Hansihippi (talk • contribs) 19:30, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Ghandi was in fact born in British India. The British Raj began ten years before Ghandi was born. 75.82.173.229 (talk) 15:38, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Narayang, you seem to imply that you want to lie to our readers. This is not a good idea. DJ Clayworth (talk) 15:54, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Influences.

Another influence on Gandhi was the Irish political activist Michael Davitt. Please see the article on Michael Davitt for reference. I want to know would there be any objections to the insertion of this information?

Justin5150 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Justin5150 (talk • contribs) 14:23, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, which article are you refering to? thanks nihar (talk) 04:40, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Rizal

I would like to know why Jose Rizal is considered someone who influenced Gandhi. In Gandhi's Autobiography which I just finished reading, there is no mention at all of him having been influenced by Jose Rizal. He mentions various writers as having deeply affected him, but not Rizal. He details how he came to the conclusions of ahimsa (non-violence) and satyagraha (insistence on the truth) by his own experiments and based on a life he felt was being guided by God's hand. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.153.175.47 (talk) 01:13, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Valid question. I do not see a reference for that in the article. Can somebody put a refernce. thanks nihar (talk) 04:38, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Childhood influences

Talking about influences, I remember to have read so many times about how the classic tale of Harishchandra performed by a troupe, had immensley influenced Gandhiji in his childhood. It is recorded in his autobiography and many other biographies. This incident is said to have had great impact on him. I see this glaringly missing in the article. I think a mention of it is needed. Any comments? thanks nihar (talk) 04:56, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree, that this can be mentioned, (one RS). --Nvineeth (talk) 05:26, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

I have put the content. Kindly have a look and let me know if you have any suggestions. thanks nihar (talk) 06:03, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Champaran and Kheda

There is no reference to who "them" are in the second sentence of the first paragraph of this section - ""Suppressed by the militias of the landlords (mostly British), they were given measly compensation, leaving them mired in extreme poverty."" I assume it is the indigo and other cash crop farmers. Just think it needs making clear. The end of the section also needs improving - ""As a result, Gandhi's fame spread all over the nation. He is also now called as "Father of the nation" in Indian."" I don't think that the "Father of the Nation" sentance is needed in this section at all (and the grammer is quite poor in the last sentence). The section should end on the "Gandhi's fame spread all over the nation". --Spaaarkz (talk) 00:23, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Criticism sources

http://harmanjit.blogspot.com/2008/03/mr-mohandas-gandhis-views-circa-1935.html

http://harmanjit.googlepages.com/gandhi-criticism.txt

- SridharRatnakumar (talk) 04:58, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Um, no one is a Libertarian rant from twenty years ago and the other is a blog that probably does not count as a reliable source and quotes Gandhi's writings out of context and without scholarly interpretation. I am sure there is much to criticize about Gahndhi since he was just as human as the rest of us, but why can't you people who are determined to speak ill of him find some scholarly sources to support your views. They must exist. Stop being lazy in your "research" and find some real sources, then you can get your views into the article. Indrian (talk) 15:57, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Correct, these sources do not qualify as being scholarly - peer-reviewed journals and books published in university presses; university-level textbooks; magazines, journals, and books published by respected publishing houses; and mainstream newspapers.. I posted them in good faith that somebody else interested may do the research from that point (arriving at relevant reliable sources, perhaps) .. not with any interest on understanding Mr. Gandhi's views let alone contributing to the article. Yet, your reply prompted me to take a closer look at WP:RS and WP:SOURCES - and I now understand the policy clearly. - SridharRatnakumar (talk) 03:28, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

There must be valid criticisms, though. I know Christopher Hitchens, at least, has publicly criticized Gandhi, and I'm sure he isn't the only serious person to do so. This page has a considerable air of hero-worship, but I don't know enough about Gandhi or his critics to add the relevant information. Can someone who doesn't have a boner for Gandhi add this clearly important dimension to the page?

The original article had the following section in it: Gandhi's experiments with brahmacharya