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Is User:Stevertigo a disruptive editor??

The following stems from this edit by User:Stevertigo, an issue which arrived here very recently. The fact that "the Holocaust" is sometimes used to refer to the destruction of more than the Jews of during World War 2, is not under dispute. However, as can be seen on the talk page, myself and a couple of others have outlined to Steve several times - while pointing to a preponderance of reliable sources, that regardless of how "The Holocaust" is defined, "Holocaust denial", refers (with the exception of a few passing references regarding the implicit denial of Roma peoples, as one user brought forward) virtually exclusively to the denial of the destruction of the Jews during WW2.

Steve has responded with an eye-watering amount of wikilawyering, the most I have ever seen in my Misplaced Pages tenure. Some comments directed at Steve have undoubtedly been less than diplomatic, but this, and then amending it with this, frankly, is absolutely repellent behaviour in my opinion. I believed that I have exercised considerable discretion in this matter, such as by inviting Steve to suggest how he would amend the article, which he has responded to. However, it has occured to more than just me that Steve's desired prose not only misses the relevant points, but tacitly suggests that Steve is making his own extrapolations, then trying to find sources to support them. Well, not remotely tacit at all, in fact.

Judging from Steve's other edits (and pages in his userspace) such as this tremendously protracted redirect he established, not to mention this very recently written item or this BLP minefield, or what can only be described as a contemptuous attitude to other people's comments, I do not think it is unreasonable to infer that the interests Steve is interested in furthering are not Wikipedias. WilliamH (talk) 00:57, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

I agree with you on a good many points, but what exactly are you suggesting we do here? lifebaka++ 01:20, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

I would suggest a block, indefinitely if necessary. It is abundantly clear that he is much more interested in tendentiously furthering his own interests, as opposed to Misplaced Pages's. I need hardly point that that is detrimental to the project, and I see no reason why so much volunteer time should be used to appease it. WilliamH (talk) 01:39, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't think a community ban discussion would get us anywhere, nor would it be all that constructive. We haven't eliminated other options yet, so I suggest we use them. How about an WP:RFC/U? lifebaka++ 14:32, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

I've looked over the discussion, and it seems that Steve is now trying to talk in a more civilized manner, accepting what people have to say. I don't pretend to understand the large amounts of philosophical debate flying back and forth on that talk page, but it looks to me that he's calmed down considerably and stopped making threats and stupid comments. A little insignificant (talk) 01:43, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Completely disinterested observer checking in. Looking over the discussion on the article talk page, it appears to be a discussion, and not at all heated to the extent that is seemingly being portrayed. The ripostes are rather courtly and just because there is a dispute does not necessitate a call for admin action. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 02:16, 14 September 2009 (UTC).

Sorry, but I must ask if any of you actually viewed any of the pages I brought forward. How on earth is for example, aiming to hose away reliably sourced material with one's own extrapolations acceptable? WilliamH (talk) 02:43, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

It's not a matter for AN/I, which deals w/ incipient problems that require admins to solve. Protonk (talk) 06:00, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

If there are disputes about the reliability of sources, try the Reliable Sources noticeboard. And throwing words like "Holocaust denier" around with hopes they will stick to an editor, is not going to further constructive debate. If they do not stick, they tend to boomerang. Next?--Wehwalt (talk) 09:45, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

How can one not use the term "holocaust denier" when dealing with the article holocaust denial? --jpgordon 14:31, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

I've had a good night and have not yet gotten any sleep, so I will keep this short.

You paint a very good one-sided story William. I do mean that. Note of course that neutral observers appear to disagree with your one-sided portrayal and aren't hesitant to say so quite straightly. Your comment above (to those who took the time to review your concerns), "Sorry, but I must ask if any of you actually viewed any of the pages I brought forward" should be understood as evidence of the weakness of your claims. Their comments above explicitly testify of their literacy in this matter. You have no evidence to show otherwise, and you have no cause to insinuate their negligence in that aspect.

WilliamH wrote: "How on earth is for example, aiming to hose away reliably sourced material with one's own extrapolations acceptable?" - Your linkage to my subspace (which I on rare occasion use in certain mundane ways) pointed to a draft for an unrelated topic. How do you conjecture a connection between this topic and that one? If you are building an overall case against me, please do so: Elicit help from others and put together some kind of comprehensive report on my behaviour. Not only would I welcome one, I would take the opportunity to demonstrate every weakness in your claims, arguments, and conceptions, and will do so with gusto and sarcasm in full measure to even the slightest vexatiousness shown to me. Your title for this thread already strikes me as a bit vexatious.

I'm going to bed. -Stevertigo 12:30, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

I think we can safely assume the thread title was meant to be benign. Cheers. lifebaka++ 14:32, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

I always AGF, but I would still prefer that the thread title be changed such that not even the slightest degree of slander remain. -Stevertigo 21:39, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

I have made the title more clear in that it is about the article and you, rather than somehow implying that you might ascribe to the theory. I assume this is better. lifebaka++ 04:22, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

I'd just like to point out that the thread title is completely benign, and all suggestions otherwise are tremendous assumptions of bad faith. WilliamH (talk) 11:22, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

This thread is rife with assertions of bad faith. I don't believe they all need pointing out. lifebaka++ 19:05, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

A few people have checked the discussion page and note that the discussion seems less heated. Indeed. But this is beside the point. The question - and really, the only question for AN/I (as Protonk points out, this page is dedicated to specific kinds of problems) - is: is User:Stevertigo a disruptive editor? The thing about disruptive editors is, you cannot make a judgement based on just one glance. By definition, disruptive editing manifests itself through a pattern of edits across time or across several articles. That is why WilliamH provided a number of edit diffs. To those who say things have quieted down, I would point out this: Stevertigo has dominated discussion on the Holodcaust Denial talk page for quite some time, occupying quite a bit of space, and all this discussion has lead to not one single improvement of the article. Moreover, it seems to me that the rest of the participants in the discussion do not see any point to this lengthy discussion, do not feel that it is leading to any improvement of the article. This is an abuse of the talk page, which is meant to discuss improvements, and a perfect example of "disruptive" editing since Stevertigo's repeated comments, which never engage what other editors actually point out, is simply displacing any constructive discussion. Stevertigo's MO is to make things up, call it a "concept," and then refuse to provide any verifiable sources. He is a disruptive editor at best - the worse possibility is that he is here to push his own personal point of view with total disregard to our NOR policy. Here is another example . Slrubenstein | Talk 15:49, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

That this was recently archived yet is on this very same, not yet resolved issue, is an indication of the level of disruption. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:30, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm not convinced Steve is completely gone, yet. As I've seen, he is improving little by little, as we make it apparent that pieces of what he's doing aren't acceptable. I don't know that we can change him completely, but neither do I know that we cannot. Steve is capable of taking the hint from this thread, I know, and is capable of changing his behavior. For the moment, it would be best if we issued a warning about some specific behaviors (such as starting talk page discussions whose purpose is not the improvement of the article) and see if he does in fact stop. Cheers. lifebaka++ 19:05, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Indeed, I am not "gone yet," Lifebaka - I was editing here five years before you showed up. I've yet to see anything more than a few insinuations and complaints, so I don't quite understand how anyone would think I would just go away and leave things in a depressed state. I likewise don't understand how some people can go though life thinking everyone else is just stupid, but that's a little off topic. Anyway, I've written down a few thoughts regarding this thread and others, and put them in my log. It's a bit fluid and maybe wanders a bit, but the gist is fairly straightforward.

By the way, I appreciate the title change. Now any slander therein is nearly unperceptible, and nowhere near as obvious. -Stevertigo 00:19, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Lifebaka didn't mean "gone" as in "retired" - s/he means that you aren't beyond hope, and that you've been learning and improving by mistakes. Sorry, that was a confusing sentence, could have raised all kinds of hell. A little insignificant _(please!) 00:25, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

My experience with Stevertigo has, unfortunately, been pretty unchanged over a number of years. He generally shows up at an article and decides to put his own unique and idiosyncratic spin on whatever is there, either by modifying text to suit his own opinions, or by adding his own mini-essays. Though he has been editing for many years, as far as I can tell the WP:V and WP:NOR policies have made little, if any, impression on him.

Here is a perfect recent example of this; he showed up at the Reducto ad Hitlerum article, and decided to insert his own confusing digression on whether or not the National Socialist party were really Socialists. Aside from its tangential nature, note that (as is typical) the essay has not one source in it. As is also typically the case, on any article he is editing that is actually being watched by other editors, his insertions are deleted. As is also typically the case, he edit wars to keep them in. When defeated, he drops it on the Talk: page, without any accompanying commentary.

Thus he showed up at the Holocaust denial article, with his own personal opinions of what the article should discuss - as it turned out, mainly a digression into which groups are covered by the phrase "The Holocaust" - something that is actually discussed in Misplaced Pages's article on the Holocaust. After days of circular discussion, including several suggestions by him that we should all be working together on a Holocaust comprehension article, he then proposed completely re-writing the lede, focusing in particular on his original point, and making his proposal without actually basing it on any discernible sources. Long exposure has taught me that every talk page discussion with him eventually comes to the question "Stevertigo, upon what sources do you base your opinions"? Constantly hammering on that statement usually makes him go away; unfortunately, in this case, many editors were unfamiliar with him, and gave him various openings to continue his digressions on his own unusual ideas. He has posted several thousand words on the Holocaust denial Talk: page without, as far as I can tell, bringing even one source that actually discusses Holocaust denial. At the least, this is extremely disruptive. Jayjg 01:16, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Just out of curiosity, was there any attempt, on your part or anyone elses, to ascertain what was missing in the reductio ad Nazium article? Indeed, as the term is said to not just refer to the Hitler fallacy, but to the Nazi one as well, I.. conceptualized.. a need for a treatment of the Socialism fallacy, and thought that article was the proper place, given the apparent ambiguity in the ad Nazium term.

So, I take it there was no effort on your part to ascertain what was missing in that article. Hm? Fine. But in the additions of others, do you at least attempt to ascertain whether or not the addition is actually true? Encyclopedic? Factual? Well-written? On-point? Relevant? Material? Substantive? Accurate? An improvement?

It strikes me at the very best "counterproductive" that you and others interpret RS in accord with only inane and destructive modalities that at best resemble deletionism. Keep in mind the context, these are articles in which you yourself neglect to detect any omission, and yet you claim to assert some kind of considered editorial judgment in simply deleting additions to them?

"Disruptive editing," indeed. -Stevertigo 02:37, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Steve, the way article writing is supposed to work is this: First, you find sources. Then, you write based on the sources. Then, you cite the sources you used. The issue appears to be that you are not beginning by finding sources, but instead writing and then attempting to cherry-pick sources which will support your text. Regardless of why you choose to operate this way, it gives the appearance that you are pushing a view. Please find sources as a first step.

Additionally, regarding the removal of unsourced content, WP:V stipulates that any unsourced contentious material should be removed. You shouldn't be too terribly surprised if, when you add material to a page without sources, it gets removed.

The new title you chose is... Odd. The first title was far more neutral. Cheers. lifebaka++ 03:02, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

User:Stevertigo has been around a long time and made many contributions. He isn't some troll who suddenly appeared. So whence this talk of banning him? Can't we tolerate people with unpopular perspectives? Do we all have to be mainstream here? If so, then who should we start kicking out: the gays? the libertarians? the Christians? Please let me know, so I can align myself with the Grand Inquisitor, and feel like a good person.--Anthon.Eff (talk) 03:29, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Very interesting perspective, Anthon. Keep in mind also the issue is not about "mainstream," its about this obtuse methodology of cobbling articles together from "reliable sources" such that they don't always make actual sense. In some cases it's quite deliberately so. So some people of course are worried that any future requirement of "making sense" will inevitably cause localized and other special-point-of-view concepts to implode. In fact its just a matter of time.

Just to forewarn you, when someone informs The Grand Inquisitor that you were just being sarcastic, he'll probably issue a standard proclamation and declare you "thou troubler of Misplaced Pages" as well. -Stevertigo 05:51, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Uh, Anthon, to be clear, Stevertigo is a troll who has been around over five years. The first encounter with him I recall (I could well be blocking out others) was when he showed up at "anti-Semitism" and argued that since Arabs are semites, anti-Semitism includes hatred of Arabs. This is the paradigm for how he operates and it has two major components. First, he claims he is using a conceptual method, but what he is really doing is taking actual concepts and breaking them down to parts that are actually not relevant to the concept. In the case of the name Ehud, he went so far as to do this with letters of the alphabet. It is true that Arabic is a semetic language. But "anti-Semitism" was explicitly coined to refer exclusively to hatred of Jews. Anyone who has done what jayjg and others call source-based research ... what I just call "research" ... would know this. As i pointed out on the Holocaust denial page, If Stevertigo really followed his method consistenly, he would be quite surprised to discover what the word "blowjob" really means. If Sgtevertigo really were commited to his "conceptual" approach, he would go the the article on blowjobs, and explain that since blow means a forceful expulsion of air, and a job is form of work, we need a section on people who blow out air for a living. This would be a violation of WP:NOR were it not just so ridiculous on its face. Anyway, the point is that he has done no research, he has no sources to support his claims, in the end it is simply what Stevertigo thinks a word or phrase should mean that he wants to go into the article. This of course never stands up to scrutiny, but Stevertio argues the point for days, weeks, and this is what makes him a disruptive editor. Second major element: Stevertigo has a clear preference for screwing with articles that have to do with Jews or topics sensitive to Jews. Although by his method we would have a long debate at the page on blowjobs, or "logrolling" or "parkway" or "driveway," Stevertigo prefers "Anti-Semitism," "Yeshu" "Ehud" and "Holocaust Denial." What do these things have in common? They are all issues sensitive to Jews, and Stevertigo has never done an iota of research concerning them. His is a simple, close to banal form of anti-Semitism. He has never directly insulted any Jews at ikipedia. But if left to his own devices, slowly, every article here relating to matters of Jewish interest or concern would be corrupted into meaningless garbage. I do not know if this is because this is his actual objective, or because he knows that it will draw some of the Jewish editors at Misplaced Pages, and force them to waste their time on the talk pages explaining over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again why he is wrong.

Please note my excessive use of "over and over and over." It is not a personal attack as such. It did not violate any content policy. But can anyone deny that its only effect is to irritate? This is Stevertigo in essense. It is why he is a disruptive editor. That he has gotten away with it for five years is no defense. In no other kind of violation, would we say that "well, he has been violating NPOV for five years so it must be okay." The only time editors say "Well he has been doing it for five years so stop complaining" is in the case of disruptive editors. That is because disruptive editors, by constantly shifting their targets, and by merely disrupting, rather than attacking, are generaly detected only by a small group of editors who for one reason or another (in this case, Jews or non-Jews who care about Jewish related articles) keep encountering this editor. But we have a policy, WP:DE that describes Stevertigo's MO almost to a tee! Folks, this is precisely why we have a DE policy. Generous editors here will say "let's give him anothe chance." That is because they weren't around for the over a month long "anti-semitism" saga (in which, after Stevertigo started introducing neologisms to support his argument, and created articles for his own neologisms, and was told, No, Steve, you can't create your own word and then create a Wikipdia article about your word, that is a neologism, and then we had to explain to him what the word "neologism" meant, then he went and created an article on neologisms! I kid you not! It is amost funny). But if we let him go this time, in a few nonths he will settle on some other article - maybe he will come up with his own theory about the etymology for Yom Kippur. Now, how many of you have this article on your watchlist? How many of you will notice it? Probably me and just a few others. And we will bring it up at AN/I and a different group of admins will read over the account of the conflict and say "Well, this seems mild, let's give him another chance." Folks, we have a policy against disruptive editors. Let's use it here. Slrubenstein | Talk 09:17, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

One could take all of that, substitute "Obama" and "liberals" in place of "Jews" and "antisemitism", and we would have an accurate description of Stevertigo's antics that led to Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Obama articles as well. Sooner or later the ones with the proverbial mops around here have eat the spinach and say "that's all I can stands and I can't stands no more!" Tarc (talk) 13:16, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Slrubenstein, most likely you'd get someone to act if you put some examples around, other than just the Ehud one. For instance, can you link me the threads from Anti-Semitism that you're talking about? Cheers. lifebaka++ 14:27, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

• I recently attempted to warn Stevertigo on Talk:Holocaust denial that his repetitive arguing was becoming disruptive; he responded by misconstruing what I'd written, wikilawyering over policy, trying to score points, and making some rather odd allusions that I might be in off-wiki contact with other editors there to silence him (, , ). I don't intend to second-guess why he does this, but regardless of the reasons the resulting disruption, bad feeling, and general unpleasantness caused by his actions are what matter. I would support removing his editing privileges; although a topic ban would be my first choice, I think his interests are wide-ranging enough that this would be ineffective. Note that because I consider myself marginally involved on Holocaust denial, I don't feel comfortable blocking Stevertigo myself. EyeSerene 14:52, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

• I deplore this dogpile.

  The consensus is against Stevertigo in a number of areas, and he has some controversial views. He also occasionally takes an unfortunate tone with people. But this AN/I thread is totally unwarranted.—S Marshall /_Cont 16:54, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Can you provide an example of a "controversial view" he has? The problem I have, and have raised, is not that he has controversial views, but that he is always promoting his own views. Misplaced Pages allows controversial views, as long as they are significant and come from notable sources. Not our own ideas, right? Slrubenstein | Talk 20:34, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

While I greatly appreciate the "dogpile" conceptualization, S Marshall, I have to disagree about it being "unwarranted," when in fact it's ridiculous. Particularly so when they don't bother to treat my arguments seriously to begin with, and then, instead of dealing with the concepts, they accuse me of "wikilawyering," which is precisely what this report itself actually is.

Note how easy it was to deal with William, who filed this report?

Slrubenstein wrote: "It is true that Arabic is a semetic language." - Actually, that's not accurate.

-Stevertigo (wlog | talk | edits) 20:32, 16 September 2009 (UTC) PS: Wrote some responses. May submit later.

Lifebaka asks for some more links. Here are two:. I must point out that archives from back then are sketchy - some articles were deleted, and then recreated when people had more research; we didn't have the same procedures for keeping records or archives of everything. In archive 4 of the anti-Semitism talk, Stevertigo makes his argument that Misplaced Pages isn't a dictionary so the article cannot be just a definition of "anti-Semitism." Fair enough. On this I agree fully. Here is where we differ: i think that instead of just defining the term, we need to see what sources exist concerning its history and the sociology of anti-Semitism, or whatever other research there has been, if any. Steve's approach is to apply his own brand oflogic, and this is used to make his own points (note: what is wrong is not that they are controvesial, but that they are his i.e. an editor's). In archive 4 he claims that anti-semitism has two meanings: first, it means hatred of Jews. Second, it is a term used to attack people who disagree with Jews. Uh, well, you can see how Jews might take exception to this second meaning of "anti-Semitism." Now, there may well be people who are anti-Zionists yet who are accused of anti-Semitism - this in fact is now the subject of a couple of articles, all backed up by research. Again, my problem with Steve's argument is that he is relying on his own argument, not research. In archive 6 he refers to himself, ironically I am sure, as an "anti-Semite." I really do not believe that he thinks he is an anti-Semite or was confessing to be an anti-Semite, I am merely pointing out that six years ago he was aware that there were other editors who found his views anti-Semitic. In archive six there is another classic example of his using his own kind of logic, rather than research: anti means opposed to, so anti-Semitism must mean, opposed to Semites, including Arabs. I and RK and Danny argued strenuously that anti-Semitism means Jew-hatred. RK points out that the person who coined the term meand, "Jew hatred." And here is the crucial thing: Stevertigo says it does not matter what the inventor of the word meant, words have meanings determined by logic. As RK points out, the reason that the inventor of the term is important is because there is extensive published historical research on the historical meaning of the term. Steve's insistence on logic is an insistence on his own beliefs. I am sorry I could not provide edit difs but it is hard with my connection to go back six years to find edit difs, but these archives are pretty short - I believe they are incomplete - so just search a bit and you will find all the pertinant stuff. Note: there was a separate archive for anti-Semitism talk, I do not know if there was a separate article or just some talk was being archived back then under a different system. The point is, those archived talk pages are all blank and I cannot recover the content, so some talk is missing. Slrubenstein | Talk 20:59, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Lifebaka, here is another link, to an article written entirely by our boy, Stevertigo.. It is pure crap. Let me be clear: it is not his "controversial views." It is his bullshit. I really am waiting for an example of some meaningful contribution to Misplaced Pages. Anyway, his article on a neologism that he himself invented is a perfect example of what I have been saying about his MO, just making stuff up and calling it logic to justify why he didn't need to do any research. Slrubenstein | Talk 21:04, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

(continued)

Honestly, take a step back. You're accusing a long-term editor of anti-Semitic views and being involved in a plot to corrupt every Jewish-related article on Misplaced Pages. That I think is bullshit. The link you just provided was from 2003. A little insignificant _(please!) 22:04, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

I provided that link because another editor explicitly requested I provide the link ...I explained this. Slrubenstein | Talk 10:34, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

The behavior in Archive 4 is similar, yes. I cannot find any place where Steve states/asserts/implies that antisemitism is hatred of Semites (including various Arab groups) in any of the archives, though this may merely be because the archives are incomplete (there are certainly responses to such a statement, but I'm unsure if they're putting words in his mouth, as it were). Cheers. lifebaka++ 16:03, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

(To Slrubenstien above) Keep in mind that there are historical concepts of editorship and controversy involved. For example, you now say that "ant-Semitism" has a pejorative meaning, but at the time you rejected the notion altogether - not just that there were no sources. In fact the sources I provided, Chomsky, Finkelstein, etc., were met by you with extremely prejudicial rejection. Hence you've been working with a concept of authorship that defies higher conceptualization, frankly because you think it has no relation to your own. Note for example how you surreptitiously promoted Trinitiarianism as an absolute condition in the Christianity article lede, when in fact there is some variance. I discussed this a bit in my wlog.

So, yeah, this has been going on for some time. The important thing though here is for you to build a case, and approach it rationally. This works in any context. For example you and William both above cite a number of diff-links, but you fail to put them into context, and thus fail to make an actual case.

And what is the case you are trying to make here? That I be banned? That my arguments, regardless of substance, simply be ignored? That you can continue to simply reject anything I might have to say, even when I do provide sources? (Which I have done on a number of occasions). That you can continue to take my arguments out of context, or otherwise misrepresent them? Do explain.

Likewise we will have to deal with some issues that transcend us both, even though Arbcom has some notable impotence in dealing with matters of its own fundamental legislation. One thing that has to go is this notion that RS's dominant modality be a deletionist one. I say so just in case collaboration still has anything to do with this project. Keep in mind that you appear to have no issue of collaborating when it comes to dealing with views which are in agreement with your own conceptualizations. Keep in mind also that because you reject collaboration with those you disagree on the fundamentals, you thus demonstrate a serious misunderstanding of what collaboration means, and what it can ultimately do. So I really do want you get your arguments in concise order first, and if that means filing some kind of formal case, I can then refute each.

Getting you and Jayjg to do something other than whine about "reliable sources" all day long - particularly when I referred 38 times to just one - would be good for everyone. My sense of things is that if I can't get obstinate persons to deal with just one reliable source, there's no point in me trying to introduce a second. In fact our presence here means to some degree my success in making you deal with just that one source. The rest is just a logical argument that says that "car parts" has something to do with "cars" and to a lesser degree "parts." Your completely irrelevant counterargument, which says essentially that an article like "cheesing" need not at all mention any definition of "cheese", is interesting. -Stevertigo (wlog | talk | edits) 22:37, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

Your post opens with a typical example of the source of my frustration. Nowehere have I said "anti-semitism" has a pejorative meaning My position has not changed since 2003: I believe that people can use the term incorrectly. My analogy would be to call an appale an orange - it is simply incorrect. But the word apple continues to refer to a certain kind of fruit. The term anti-Semite can be incorrectly applied to another person, but it is not pejorative, it is a term that refers to people who, among other things, say pejorative things. We went over this six years ago. I continue to see you violating NOR, se,dom using sources and when you do, using them inappropriately, often violating SYNTH, or taking them out of context, all in order to develop your own arguments about a topic, which violates NPOV. Do I want you banned? Well, yeah, until you show evidence of being able to work in a collaborative way with people. Ehud is a perfect examplke because so little seems to be at stake. You insisted it came from Yehudi and I insisted you provide reliable sources for that; instead you provided your own personal interpretation of Hebrew grammar. I said you were violating NOR (which you took to be pejorative). Another user provided the correct etymology and a source, and you had the gall to tell me that I should learn a lesson, and provide sources rather than just argue with people! When my "argument" with you was my insistence that you provide a source! If this is not trolling, what is? Slrubenstein | Talk 10:43, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Also, I never promoted trinitarianism. You are just making stuff up. Slrubenstein | Talk 10:46, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Disagreement with processes and policy is fair, but even if you are totally correct in your views of RS, V, etc, article space is not the correct place to implement them as folks just want to edit (and collaborate!) within the existing consensual processes and not entertain these "conceptualizations." You mention how long you've been editing here pretty frequently, so I guess you know better than us newbies how wikiprocesses were formed and what you can do to change them. Propose your changes inside the WP process space - a great place for conceptualizing with folks who focused are on that topic. RS's are required because V / NPOV are required. Deviating from current, consensual policy inside of article space is hugely time consuming and disruptive as evidenced by all of the text here and at Talk:Holocaust_denial. Until and unless policy changes, threads that propose material changes to content without reliable sourcing should just be summarily closed until sourcing is provided. Doing this actually supports the process of collaboration as finite resources don't need to be endlessly engaged with discusses content changes that fail (current) policy. cheers, --guyzero | talk 02:49, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't have to go very far in terms of the policy route than to cite WP:LEDE/WP:LEAD. The fact that much of the substance in that policy's own lede comes from my own conceptualizations about what an article lede needs to do, should not be an obstacle to your continued faith. In short, the substance behind WP:LEDE is higher, relevant conceptualization.

Keep in mind, I did provide sources. They simply rejected their relevance. So the extrapolated principle in this case is simple: If a topic is a specialized one, we need to explain why it is so. Also, if the topic likewise uses more general terminology, in some specialized way, then we need to explain why. There is some historiology for the relevant terms, which is not too controversial. However if even simple, concise, and relevant explanations of these specialized ("denial") and subjective ("motive, scale, intent") historiologies are rejected without substantive argument, then this rejection is easily understood to be based not in policy or a reliable interpretation thereof.

The common-sense explanation for this type of rejectionism is simply that these explanations give some sense that the specialized terminology is actually a specialized one. And thus they are not rejected because they do not fit policy, but because such explanations defy certain ethnic conceptualizations. This is basically what Slrubenstein was referring to when he said above that 'conceptualization destroys meaning' (paraphrasing). My translation-reparsing of this is something like 'such conceptual explanations can only contradict the ones written down in scrolls.' Now granted, these are "reliable scrolls" to be certain. Most of them anyway. But these have no meaning at all here if no efforts are made to unroll them, read them to people, and gain new understanding from their unconstrained resonance.

I have always known how to express myself with "sensitiv," as Slrubenstein calls it. That I often do not is simply a requirement of the age, an instrument of the times, a necessity of the context, and due in no small measure to the lack of good faith that I have grown accustomed to dealing with. I am always pleased, however, to find I am not right in this regard. Regards, -Stevertigo (wlog | talk | edits) 03:54, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't see where you really responded to anything guyzero said, nor have you given a reason why we should be doing anything other than what he's suggested. lifebaka++ 16:19, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

"deal with William". Oh dear, Steve, there's this thing called real life, which I, judging by your elaborate responses, have to be a part of more frequently than you. I do not have the time or interest to appease your wikilawyering. Incidentally, I have abolutely no qualms about the thread title being changed, and even offer an apology for the impression it falsely/inadvertently suggested.

Consequently, this is the first time I've checked this thread since my comment 2 days ago. I'd just like comment on one thing: on Misplaced Pages, it's always been my intention to keep controversial articles, such as Holocaust denial, as they should be, in accordance with Misplaced Pages's policies. Indeed, I was selected - and supported unanimously - to be an administrator largely on that basis. The fact that all hell breaks loose when someone leaves a few daft opposes on requests for adminship, yet the general response to someone who - on top of all the disruptive editing - systematically rejects core policies such as WP:V and WP:NOR and (by his own admission) cherry-picks material to push his agenda on an encyclopedia page viewed thousands of times a month is largely "uh, nothing to see here, move on", in my opinion, encompasses everything that is wrong with Misplaced Pages if this individual is not sanctioned in some manner. WilliamH (talk) 10:39, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

You could have picked a far better example, Steve. Cheesing has absolutely nothing to do with cheese, unless one has a very strange definition of cheese. lifebaka++ 16:19, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

I think.. anyone reading this no doubt thinks we are all talking past each other. (Note, I wanted to keep this extremely short, but I failed in that regard): WilliamH above, just to take one example of this 'talking past each other,' references my example of an argument, but he misses the point behind it entirely that it represented Slrubenstein's actual argument, simply putting into a rather absurd reformulation. Slrubenstein's argument is certainly valid in cases like the example I used ("cheesing") which are entirely idiomatic and unrelated to their apparent core terminology. In cases like this one (Holocaust and Holocaust denial) where the terms are entirely related, his argument is so utterly irrelevant that it constitutes a demonstration of a deeper capacity on his part for fallacious argumentation.

Slrubenstein and Jayjg have echoed this same argument several times, stating essentially that "Holocaust denial" is so far removed from the term "The Holocaust" that no mention of the latter is required in the former. The underlined portion is oversimplified, but these are the essentials of his argument. The underlined portion can be augmented with something like matters of subjectivity in its definition.

The background is straightforward: term "The Holocaust" first split off from its apparent original definition of "all Nazi murders," and became used to refer exclusively to the mass-murder of Jews alone sometime during the 1960s. That's according to the Columbia Guide. Naturally, there has been a concerted effort to promote an entirely Jewish definition of "The Holocaust," to the rejection of several million other victims. There are of course explanations for this selectivity, and these invariably employ concepts of "motive, scale, and intent" (Columbia Guide). The issue then is an editorial one which can be broken down into two basic counterarguments of somewhat differing validity. We've seen examples of each. -Stevertigo (wlog | talk | edits) 18:27, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

• sigh* this is what makes him a disruptive editor. Now I have to go and explain that I never suggested that Holocaust denial has nothing to do with the Holocaust. Nor have I ever suggested that the Holocaust refers only to the genocide of Jews. In fact, far from it. But by misrepresenting me and the argument, I have no choice but either to disengage (and people will have an unfair representation of me) or repeat what I have said many times ... thus ... further ... delaying ... any ... improvement ... on ... the ... article ... We can go back and forth cand back and forth and back and forth and just let SV continue to use Misplaced Pages like his own little ball of yarn. I'd rather we didn't. Slrubenstein | Talk 18:35, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Hey, well at least you're not mad. (Or else not showing any outward signs thereof). Nice talking with you. -Stevertigo (wlog | talk | edits) 18:39, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

PS (Slrubenstein): BTW, Salvation needs reworking to get it somewhere back to neutrality. Its upfront usage of "..from eternal damnation" is just the start of it. Please have a look, if you're not busy. -Stevertigo (wlog | talk | edits) 19:05, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't think either one of you are understanding each other. At all. I think it would be a great help to me, and everyone involved, if Stevertigo said in a single, simple sentence what he wants to do, and Slrubenstein then stated in another sentence what he doesn't want Steve to do. All this without long explanations. I think if people can know for sure what the other side wants, and not respond to what they assume the other side is saying, this issue can be resolved a lot easier. A little insignificant _(please!) 16:47, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

I think you are misunderstanding our understanding, to a certain extent. Keep in mind we have been crossing paths for seven years. In any case It's not really about what I want to do, or what Slrubenstein wants me not to do, but how you and others can help us by sorting out the arguments and giving us your input. So I appreciate the questions.

As far as the article issues go, my argument is that including a reference to the core term's variance (such that arises from a subjective definition) is simply good explanationism, and necessary to move forward in the direction of dealing objectively with issues of terminology and etymology, as well as comprehension, which I feel is an essential dimension within the whole sad topic. As I understand them, Slrubenstein presents two main arguments for dis-inclusion: The first one (m1) is valid only in unrelated contexts wherein a pair of terms might only have a superficial relation, and the second (m2) is implied based on his various expressed concerns for how his own subjective ethnic lens relates to the article/concept. His arguments related to sources are likewise twofold: The first (s1) that I have not provided any sources at all is nullified by my presentation of a very ample and relevant one (Columbia Guide). His second argument (s1) alleges the irrelevance of the above source in the current context - an argument that itself rests circularly on one of his main arguments (m1).

With regard to what do I want in general (which is the other way I interpreted your questions), it's about how to formalize and broaden what I do, which is to turn an articulate wreck into a clear, concise, and conceptual statement of the subject. With regard to Slrubenstein (since we are talking about what the other is supposed to be doing), I'd like to see him transform his acuity for detail from its current expression as a modality of exclusive expertise, into a helpful and outgoing movement based on the assisted procurement of citations and the qualitative adjudication of sources. Regards, -Stevertigo (wlog | talk | edits) 10:47, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Ah, Steve, if I had embraced the part of anthropology that had embraced postModernism, I'm sure that I would understand what you had just written. But, unfortunately, I embraced something much more wholesome. I like User:A little insignificant's suggestion: "I think it would be a great help to me, and everyone involved, if Stevertigo said in a single, simple sentence what he wants to do, and Slrubenstein then stated in another sentence what he doesn't want Steve to do. All this without long explanations." Not much fun, maybe, but helpful... --Anthon.Eff (talk) 03:52, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, Anthon. And Steve, if I'm getting this right, all you want to do is... include a mention that the term "Anti-semitism" can mean different things? A little insignificant _(please!) 17:58, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

actually, i think it's the different meanings of the "holocaust" that steve wants to note. untwirl(talk) 22:29, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

I think you're right. Thanks for correcting me. A little insignificant _(please!) 17:30, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Reply to A little insignificant: I would like Stevertigo to stop filling up talk pages with obtuse wordy rambles that express his own views, but no research. Slrubenstein | Talk 23:16, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Great. I agree- Stevertigo tends to write using a lot of very long paragraphs and very impressive words. Steve, I don't mean to criticize your writing style or to deny the importance of your comments, but such huge posts are daunting to their readers, and people trying to communicate with you cannot do so easily. They end up confused and lost and misunderstanding your points. If you want to be able to communicate better with people you need to address those issues. A little insignificant _(please!) 20:17, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Also, (sorry if I am now making it two sentences with specific regard to Holocaust Denial, my complaint is: Stevertigo consistenly ignores the several other editors who have been working on the article, because he responds to any one else's comment with one of these long ponderous and obtude reflections on his own thoughts, rather than ever directly engaging other editors. Slrubenstein | Talk 00:05, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

(sigh) The point (again) is to include some language in the lede of the Holocaust denial article that explicitly states something like 'while there is variance in the scope of the term "The Holocaust," its meaning in the context of "Holocaust denial" is limited to the Jewish definition, and the coined purpose of the term is to refer to anti-Semitic WWII revisionism and to nothing else.. for other interpretative issues related to the Holocaust, see Holocaust comprehension.'

I am not happy with the fact that people here apparently can't deal with three simple paragraphs: 1) an introduction and expression of gratitude to ALI, 2) a direct response ("my argument is that including a reference to the core term's variance (such that arises from a subjective definition) is simply good explanationism"), and 3) a follow-up dealing with my hopes for the future. Granted the information density in my expressions is high, still I don't see why a secondary or ternary read wouldn't be sufficient for comprehension. If comprehension is not achievable, I don't see what business you people have in trying to make content decisions or activity complaints about me, what I advocate, what I write, or what I do - whatever these may be.

SLR, I empathize and understand your concerns. Still I feel that you are being disingenuous about your criticisms, your motives, your degrees of approach, and your willingness to be reasonable. I have not ignored you or anyone else, and I have been responsive to every inquiry, if not compliant with every unreasonable request. The only issue is that your side now needs to concede that your arguments (which I listed in my above reply) are less substantial than mine, if not altogether flawed and based in disingenuous complaint-ism. I humbly suggest you put your energies toward dealing with the arguments, rather than making complaints which are neither true, nor accurate enough to be close. Do you agree to this request? If not, then please file a formal complaint. -Stevertigo (wlog | talk | edits) 05:25, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Dude, someone else filed the complaint, which is why we are here.

Now, you mention "Holocaust comprehension" but I see no link and can't find such an article. Folks, if you are still confused as to the crux of the issue, here it is: Stevertigo has flooded the Holocaust denial talk page with piles and piles of his obtuse circular prose all to promote this idea of a new article (Holocaust comrehension) that would be based on: .... no, no, not other sources, but on Stevertigo's own views. This is just what I meant when I replied to A little insignificant's request for one sentence: I want Stevertigo to stop pushing his POV, especially his proposal to create new articles based on his POV rather than verifiable sources. Slrubenstein | Talk 08:52, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Consider Steven that the premise by which this thread was started was almost instantly rejected by uninvolved people as an ongoing discussion - not a case of disruptive editing. I also made it clear that WilliamH's comment to these people was out of placem and this thread should have stopped there. But then you chimed in and kept it going - so its your matzah ball now.

As far as your 'piles and piles of obtuse circular prose' characterization (apparently your only remaining point), I'm certain that the above admins don't read it that way either. I would characterize the "piles and piles" as my attempts at explaining my argument to you, unsuccessful only because I've had to deal with "obtuse" rejections from you and Jayjg, "circular" not as in your objections/arguments, rather as in 'having to repeat myself,' "prose" is no doubt an underhanded compliment of some sort. Again, anyone can read WP:LEDE for the supporting policy, the Columbia Guide to The Holocaust for the supporting source, and my own "piles and piles" of talk page comments for the argumentation.

You mention "Holocaust comprehension." Great. Finally a question about a substantive idea. There is no article yet, because we have not before considered the concept. In fact my entire foray into this whole awful topic began with my post here, which explained my reasons for an umbrella context, within the general field. Is this original research? Not if you consider all of the dimensions outside of anti-Semitism. -Stevertigo (wlog | talk | edits) 14:38, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

We'll just be back in a few month anyways, when User:Stevertigo/Socialism fallacy, another unsourced opinion piece makes its way into article space. Tarc (talk) 13:28, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Actually you won't. What is going to happen is that you are going to file a formal complaint against me within the week. I will deal with your "issues" regarding me and my editing there. If you don't formalize your problems, and still persist in annoying me with your incessant hebetudinousness, I'll make you do more than just search a dictionary. -Stevertigo (wlog | talk | edits) 14:46, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

In what way is Tarc incessantly lethargic or dull? Or were you hoping someone would accuse you of using the derogatory word for a Jew just so you could say "fooled ya!" with a wink? No, Steve, you haven't fooled us at all. Some people maybe, but not all of us. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:01, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Whatever. Steven, if you're not going to just come out of the anxiety closet and call me what they do at the Jewish Justice League meetings, then what's the point? (BTW congrats on your acceptance. Say hi to Uncle Leo for me). -Stevertigo (wlog | talk | edits) 21:08, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Steve, eThreats don't become you. Stalking? Please. You have a redlink under "stuff to do" on your user page, and it was hardly a leap to assume you had a draft of such in userspace. I took a look at it and noted that it seems just as problematic as your last project turned out to be. Tarc (talk) 18:21, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Ugh. YAWN. - Stevertigo (wlog | talk | edits) 20:54, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Stevertigo part 3

To get back to the point, the issue raised, and still unresolved, is Stevertigo's filling articles with his own unique ideas, combined with his filling article Talk: pages with superficially erudite but actually obtuse and obscure argumentation. It's not that people "disagree with his views", it's that Misplaced Pages is not the place for them. Note, for example, his recent comment above, which I'll quote in its entirety:

You mention "Holocaust comprehension." Great. Finally a question about a substantive idea. There is no article yet, because we have not before considered the concept. In fact my entire foray into this whole awful topic began with my post here, which explained my reasons for an umbrella context, within the general field. Is this original research? Not if you consider all of the dimensions outside of anti-Semitism. -Stevertigo (wlog | talk | edits) 14:38, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

As far as Stevertigo is concerned, the only "substantive" issue has finally come up; what should we do about that Holocaust comprehension article he wants to write. Not that he has any sources that even discuss the concept; of course not! Stevertigo has an idea in his head, therefore Misplaced Pages should have an article on his idea. He waves away any notion that his recent brainstorm might be Original Research, not by linking to WP:NOT#ESSAY, but instead linking to WP:CONCEPT, an essay written by Stevertigo himself! Personal, idiosyncratic viewpoints are fine for a blog, but they don't belong in encyclopedia, nor should they be used to waste peoples time on article Talk pages. This disruptive behavior of his needs to stop, and it doesn't appear discussion of the issue is actually making any impression on him. Jayjg 23:33, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

This is what Steve attempted to do on a couple of occasions with Obama-related articles as well; edit war, fail, write/propose brand-new WP:OR-tinged articles, fail, create new editing guidelines or edit war on existing ones to support his arguments, rinse, repeat. Seriously; desysopped several years ago, sanctioned by ArbCom just 3 months ago, numerous AN/Is...where does one go from here to deal with such a dug-in, serial disruptor? Tarc (talk) 23:46, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Full stop. Is this the triggering edit?--Tznkai (talk) 23:49, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

No. Jayjg 00:06, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Further thought: This thread is very long, and difficult to read. A brief and neutral summary would be a great help. The absence of one will make it more likely for an administrator, to assume wide misuse of Misplaced Pages as a battleground which would be unfortunate.--Tznkai (talk) 23:58, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Here's the summary: Stevertigo completely ignores WP:NOR and WP:V, and, when opposed, edit-wars to keep his own original research in articles and/or fills Talk: pages with thousands of words of pointless, reference-free, non policy-related argumentation. This is not about any specific edit, or any specific article; not about Obama, or antisemitism, or Holocaust denial, or his personal essays in Misplaced Pages space. It is about the behavior Stevertigo displays in each of these areas, and many more. Please read my previous comment above. Jayjg 00:06, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

I've begun to read through all of this, but it quite frankly could take me a long while that I'd rather be spending doing other things. Anything else really. In the meantime, I'd like to make a global reminder that patient explaining is superior to the alternatives, that we've already had an ugly case or two about this, and that terms like antisemitism should be used with care.--Tznkai (talk) 00:43, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Quick review: Tznkai asked for a stop to the chatter and an answer to the context: "Is this the triggering edit?" Jayjg said simply "No."

I know that supposedly no one is as long winded as I am, but even Jayjg is never this terse - at least in the five years I've known him online. Why the terseness? Is it because he lacks another explanation? Is it because he's interpreting "triggering" in a slippery sort of way? Is it because its not true, but by not offering any further explanation, he thinks people are stupid enough to not notice that he's playing a little game of omission, and thus probably thinks he can just sort of back out of it if pressed?

The correct answer was "yes." After all I made no other edit to the article, except for adding the words "and etymology" to the "terminology" section header. -Stevertigo (wlog | talk | edits) 05:02, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Jayjg provided a supeb summary of the matter at 00:06 23 September. Tznkai writes, "I've begun to read through all of this, but it quite frankly could take me a long while that I'd rather be spending doing other things." To add my own two cents to Jayjg's concise summary: Tznkai, your complaint is precisely our complaint about what happens whenever Stevetigo starts pushing his point of view on the talk page of an article. Other editors must devote a lot of time to reading through all of his obtuse and uninformed rambling, which takes time away from other discussions that could really improve the article. That is what makes him a disruptive editor. I hope Tznkai this meets your standards for brevity. Slrubenstein | Talk 09:30, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Breakdown at Template:Infobox Russian inhabited locality

Template:Infobox Russian inhabited locality (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

This template is currently indef-protected. The admin protecting it is the primary author and editor. Protection was done on the grounds of WP:HRT. The template currently has fewer than 500 transclusions, and doesn't appear to have ever been the subject of vandalism itself. Requests on the talk page have been declined, met with a rather long response from the protecting admin - as a result, a request on RFPP has been going stale, with the outside admin stating that the page should not be protected, but declining to action it. There has been no sign of an edit war, and there is no indication that one is about to begin.

Some further outside input would be greatly appreciated. 81.110.104.91 (talk) 15:16, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

• I also came across this at RFPP, though I haven't commented there. User:Tedder has taken no direct action but has brought the issue on the template talk page; however, he seems to know that User:Ezhiki isn't around on the weekends. He has stated at the template talk page that he will not unprotect because it would be wheel warring; I disagree. User:Ezhiki's actions are of doubtful necessity and are an abuse of administrative tools where he is the creator of the template and one of the only editors. He also appears to have added the protection after User:Pigsonthewing made a bold move; indicating he's using the protection indicating he's using the protection to win a dispute over titling the template. It is perfectly appropriate for an uninvolved admin to take action here and unprotect, wheel warring is when an admin uses his tools to redo an action reverted by another admin. As the admin is apparently not around to discuss, I am unprotecting. However, this issue remains open and I think we need to look harder at this admin's use of his tools generally.--Doug. 19:16, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

I think semi-protection should be preserved, as this templates is still used on a few hundred pages. Ruslik_Zero 19:23, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

I think that discussion needs to continue on the template's talk page as to whether Misplaced Pages:HRT applies to this template. I have no opinion on the matter. I unprotected because there was a request at RFPP, the protection appears to have been an abuse of tools by an involved admin and I posted here about it because there was the suggestion that unprotection would be wheel warring. Much of the current discussion there was emotional surrounding the abuse of tools and your point would probably be a good place to make a fresh start with that discussion. This discussion should be about the abuse of tools, this is not a place to discuss the overall merits of protection.--Doug. 19:37, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

The circumstances under which the template was protected are unusual. There does not seem to have been what many might consider sufficient cause for full protection to be placed, so I can see how removing it, as even the admin who first declined to do so favored. Semi-protection is another matter independent of the circumstances, and could easily be requested at WP:RFPP. I'm not sure I would necessarily oppose such semi-protection, but that is another matter. John Carter (talk) 20:17, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't think Ezhiki typically abuses his tools. I normally love the guy, he is usually very level-headed, I am concerned in this instance though that he has purposefully locked the template from even me helping constructively edit it because of a perceived threat of deletion or edits removing things which he disgarees with like Farmborough did and that he has resorted to trolling the TFDs to prove a point even when he knows little about them like the Bangladesh template. If you check the actual history of the template to completely lock it fully is clearly inappropriate and seems to have been done out of fear rather than anything else. A semi-lock maybe but I don't think it will get much if any vandalism, the previous Russia city template never did. If at a later date it gets vandalism from ips then semi-lock it. His actions of late over templates and "settlements" have admittedly teed me off a little. Himalayan 13:55, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

I am very concerned that on 9 September he made two edits (to the template under discussion), one to reverse Pigsonthewing's move of the same day, the other to fully protect the template. This is clear use of tools to win a dispute and is most inappropriate. If it weren't for that, I probably would have let things lie the way Tedder had left them - i.e. wait until Ezhiki got back; but this is very disconcerting.--Doug. 15:43, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

If you really want to see something quite inappropriate check out his excessive posts at the TFDs providing the same invalid argument each time to prove a point. He has voted to keep a template on Bangladesh I nominated too which is actually at present providing seriously false location information and is in interfering with the effort I made to make 64 district locator maps which they could not provide to clean them all up and correct them. He has obviously not actually stopped to examine the pros and cons of the templates and treat each one indiviually but has hounded all of them to prove his point over naming convention because of an earlier conflict on the Russian template with Pigs on the wing, check it out. That in my view is unacceptable behavior from an admin. He has never edited any articles on Bangladesh or the Solomon Islands and normally would not have done this. Himalayan 21:07, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Ah, I remember now why I love taking wiki-weekends so much—it is always so nice to return to the sweet smell of napalm admin abuse accusations on Monday morning! So, should I sign my sentence somewhere now? :)

Anyway, joyful bantering aside, in case anyone is still interested in my take on the situation, here's what happened:

1. For the past couple of years, the infobox needs of articles on Russian cities/towns were taken care of by {{Infobox Russian city}}
2. The template worked OK for its purpose, yet had a score of annoying minor problems and inconsistencies. Also, it was only suitable for cities/towns, and not for other types of populated places in Russia.
3. After having collected numerous feedback about that template, I designed and implemented {{Infobox Russian inhabited locality}} on August 19 & 20, 2009.
4. After polishing out the most obvious bugs, I semi-protected the template on August 20.
5. While it was my belief even on August 20 that the template qualifies under WP:HRT, I did not choose to fully protect it at the time because there was a possibility someone other than me would find undetected bugs and fix them.
6. For the next two and a half weeks, I was observing the template for problems.
7. Those few minor problems which I've noticed, I fixed on September 8. Since in two and a half weeks no one else complained about anything, my intent was to fully protect the template (under WP:HRT) soon after.
8. On September 9, the template was moved to a new title ({{Infobox Russian settlement}}) by User:Pigsonthewing (Andy).
9. I do not question it was a good-faith move, but it also was uninformed and negligent.
   1. The uninformed portion was the fact that the term "settlement" in context of Russia is both a synonym of the term "inhabited locality" and a term referring to a type of an "inhabited locality" (as in "Russian inhabited localities include cities, towns, villages, settlements, urban-type settlements, etc..."). In articles about Russia, for reasons of clarity and unambiguity, we always use the term "settlement" in its latter sense. Using a precise term in its generic sense, if only in a template title, can be confusing to editors and ultimately leads to increased maintenance overhead within WP:RUSSIA (of which I am a member). Having seen how carelessly this template had been applied in articles in the past, I do believe that the clarity of the template's title is of utmost importance.
   2. The negligent portion was due to the fact that the move created several double-redirects, which remained unfixed for several hours. As a result, a number of high-profile (for WP:RUSSIA) articles displayed a double-redirect notice instead of the actual infobox.
10. I discovered the move upon logging in on September 9 and moved it back for the reasons explained in the edit summary.
11. Since it was my intent to fully protect the template that morning anyway, that is what I had done.
12. Was that action probably not a good judgement? In the hindsight, it was. Note, however, that the protection was imposed due to my interpretation of the WP:HRT, as well as to the fact that the previous negligent move clearly demonstrated the need for such protection (good-faith actions can be as harmful as the bad-faith ones). The protection action had nothing to do with the "conflict" (which, as of the time of protection, had not even started to develop). I truly and honestly find the accusations of "admin abuse" far-fetching, unsubstantiated, and not in spirit of assuming good faith (especially considering the fact that they've been made even before the accusing side had a chance to hear my reasoning and explanations). I would not object to allegations of "poor judgment", but I find allegations of "admin abuse" so early in the process despicable. At least take some time to hear the whole story! Is one weekend too long of a time to wait for me to return?
13. Moving on. A few minutes after the protection had been imposed, Andy voiced his concern on the template's talk page.
14. I replied immediately after having seen the comment, explaining the terminology peculiarities.
15. After a follow-up request, I wrote up an extensive and detailed response further explaining the reasons.
16. After that, the thread died (for six days!). Naturally, I assumed the issue is settled. The template remained fully protected.
17. On September 15, Andy posted three further comments, one of which stated that he is "disinclined" to read my previous response as it is too "lengthy". I have not addressed this comment as I have not noticed it; something which I later apologized for.
18. On September 17, User:Himalayan Explorer inquired as to the purpose of having the template locked.
19. I explained that the protection is for WP:HRT reasons, and that if he does not agree with my interpretation of WP:HRT or its applicability in this case, he is welcome to seek opinion of an administrator of his choice. To that, I received no response from Himalayan, nor was there an indication that Himalayan solicited any other admin for an opinion, so (here we go again) I assumed the matter settled (at least with him).
20. I did, however, receive a follow-up inquiry from Andy, in which he also alerted me to the fact that I have overlooked one of his previous requests (the one in which he states his "disinclination" to read my responses, for they are too "lengthy").
21. In my response, I addressed both issues:
    1. On protection, I advised Andy to take the same course of action I recommended Himalayan—he is welcome to solicit an opinion of another administrator of his choice and, if that opinion happens to differ from mine and the template does not qualify for protection under WP:HRT, I would comply nevertheless. (For the matter of record, I fully understand how HRT applicability in this case can seem borderline and subject to an individual interpretation, although I firmly stand by my own assessment).
    2. On the matter of "disinclination" to read my responses, I advised Andy that he cannot expect a productive discussion to take place if he refuses his opponent the right to be heard on the basis of a facetious essay.
22. As a result, Andy listed the template for unprotection, which ultimately lead to this AN/I thread.

To summarize: I admit that it was not a very sound judgment decision to protect the template after having moved it back (although I emphasize once again that no conflict took place as of the time of protection) and that I should have probably contacted a different admin to handle that. I do not admit any "admin abuse" or assumption of me acting in bad faith at any point of this conflict. The above list, hopefully, provides a clearer picture. If anything seems unclear or inaccurate, I'll be happy to take questions.

As for the template, as indicated above in my responses to two other users, I had agreed to abide by an assessment of another admin, and since that assessment is presently "unprotect", that's what I am going to abide by. I do, however, still believe it qualifies for protection under HRT (it is relatively high use and affects the area not many other admins watch over, so vandalism has greater chances of going undetected). I also reserve the right to fully protect this template again if a) it starts to attract vandals; b) when it's usage level increases by an order of magnitude (~3,000 articles).—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 15:00, September 21, 2009 (UTC)

Whether you disagree with Andy's moves with the Russian template or not you retaliated by hounding all of his (and one of my) nominations with the same copied and pasted message to prove a point about template naming conventions. If you had actually stopped and considered the content and function of some of the templates particuarly the Bangaldesh one which at present is far from accurate then you might see that some of them are actually valid nominations and not just part of a vendetta of Andys to add settlement to everywhere. If yo had assumed good faith in the first place rather than locking the template after a disagremeent and then angrily raiding his other TFDs nobody would have said anything and you most certainly would not have received a response from me. Himalayan 16:20, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

90% of Ezhiki's response is irrelevant. What is relevant is that, five minutes after reverting a disputed move, he protected the template. I requested he reverse that, explaining that it was an abuse of his admin powers. When he apparently did not see my request; I drew his attention to it. Once he stated that he would not unprotect it, I requested unprotection using the correct channel. Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 16:40, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

It is very much relevant in a sense that without knowing what led to a protection (and a subsequent denial of an unprotection request) it is impossible to ascertain the merits of my actions properly. The reasons why the template was protected are covered under items 9, 10, 11, 12, 19, and 21.1 in the explanation above.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 19:07, September 21, 2009 (UTC)

I don't really see the point in continuing this discussion here. It is not addressing the real problem or helping what needs to be done here. Ezhiki is not going to be blocked and niether is he going to be stripped of his tools for locking a single template and neither do I want him to be so I think we should end this ANI discussion and discuss more calmly how we address Ezhiki's concerns about naming convention without conflict or misunderstanding and come to a consensus elsewhere. Himalayan 17:06, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't cherish the thought of having to drag this further either, but I do take accusations of "admin abuse" seriously. I would thus sincerely appreciate Doug's comment on the situation in light of my explanation above.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 19:07, September 21, 2009 (UTC)

• Any use of tools to advance one's own personal position or interests is a violation of the trust that the community has in us - even if we think we are doing it for the benefit of the project. I don't find the explanation particularly helpful or convincing. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on your intentions but the evidence shows at best very poor judgment and a misuse of tools. Your statement: the protection was imposed due to my interpretation of the WP:HRT, as well as to the fact that the previous negligent move clearly demonstrated the need for such protection is very troubling. HRT is a guideline and it requires consensus to determine whether it applies to a particular page - as the HRT page clearly states; not the determination of the creator of the template. There had been no discussion of HRT that I'm aware of prior to your protection and there was an ongoing disagreement over the proper name of the template. Whether you previously planned to protect the page or not is irrelevant, at that point you should definitely not have done so. The idea that the move was negligent is conclusory and is a content dispute in reality over what the template should say and how it should be named (if a user makes a move and fails to clean up the double-redirects, this should be explained to him or her - but there's a bot that will eventually take care of it, it's not a justification for locking the page!). the previous negligent move is exactly why you should not be protecting this page at all as it shows you went into the protection decision with a bias that if done by a newbie editor would get him or her slapped with an ownership warning. I find your reservation of rights above to be a problem too; there is nothing that says "~3000" pages is the cut off for HRT and HRT actually says otherwise, the community decides through consensus on a page by page basis whether the number is 3 or 3,000,000,000 for any particular page. As I've said at the template talk page, I take no position on whether this page qualifies for HRT at present.--Doug. 21:33, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

I disagree. The "consensus" portion of the HRT refers to changing the template after it has been fully protected. True, it does also say that HRT applies to templates identified as at-risk "by the community", but in practice determining the need for such protection is often left to administrators. Could I have assessed the need for protection incorrectly? Of course I could have. Which is precisely why I advised the parties seeking unprotection to solicit a third opinion by an administrator of their choice, and which is why I preemptively agreed to abide by the said third opinion whatever it would turn out to be. If anything, it demonstrates willingness to admit the possibility that I might have been wrong. I don't understand how you manage to twist it in your head and see "abuse", especially considering the fact that you yourself are not sure whether HRT should apply or not? "Abuse" happens when there is a malicious intent to advance one's position; in the timeline above I demonstrated that nowhere in the process it was so. Please take an extra notice of the fact that of the time of protection there existed neither conflict nor discussion (i.e., your statement that "there was an ongoing disagreement over the proper name of the template" is incorrect). In other words, there was not even a "position" to "advance"!

Furthermore, nowhere in my explanation did I say that the protection I imposed after the move was solely because of the inadvertent effects of that move. That the move broke up some things pretty bad (and in high profile articles no less—not exactly the case when we should be waiting for a bot to detect this!) was a part of the decision, but the primary motive still stayed the same—the template, in my opinion, qualified under HRT. I apologize for having to repeat it endlessly, but that's one important thing that I want to be made crystal clear.

Finally, regarding the 3,000 threshold, it is purely arbitrary. I still believe the template qualifies under HRT now, and I believe even more that it will qualify when its transclusion reaches ~3,000. Now, someone may want to decide that it qualifies before that happens. Fine by me. I simply don't want to rush into re-protection to avoid further screams of "abuse". Don't read too much into my "3,000" remark, please.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 16:55, September 22, 2009 (UTC)

In case the above is too long and too hard to understand, here's the bottom line. Admin creates a template. The template sees use in hundreds of articles. Admin decides to protect the template (per WP:HRT). Someone moves the template and breaks things. Admin decides that the protection is doubly warranted. Admin protects the template (poor judgment here admitted; should've sought someone else's help; I repent). When questioned, admin refers the inquiring persons to a third party and agrees to abide by that party's decision. Now, at which stage here was there "abuse" to "advance a point"?—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 17:03, September 22, 2009 (UTC)

"of the time of protection there existed neither conflict nor discussion" Nonsense, You protected the template just 5 minutes after reverting me. Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 17:28, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Nonsense? On the contrary, it is true. For the matter of record (again!), I did protect the template just five minutes after reverting you. I did that (and by now admitted more than once that it was poor judgment). I also explained that it was my intent to protect the template on that very day: it was pretty much the first thing on my list of things to do after logging in (go ahead and check my contributions log). The fact that the move broke a number of high-profile articles and was out of line with the established terminology only confirmed my assessment that the template needs protection. Apart from reverting the move, there was neither conflict nor discussion at the time of protection (anyone is welcome to check the diffs and the state of the matters using the detailed timeline above). What exactly are you refuting here? Do I seem to you to be denying the fact of protection or something?—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 17:46, September 22, 2009 (UTC)

"Apart from reverting the move…": QED. Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 23:19, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm not going to argue, I've stated my reasons, that's it - few other admins seem inclined to comment so it seems the matter is closed. You're the only one suggesting I'm out in left field with the word abuse and I'm the only admin using the phrase; so we're at an impasse and should both take our toys and go home. As for considering the fact that you yourself are not sure whether HRT should apply or not - I never said that, I said I have no position on the matter. I 1) don't care, and 2) went to the template regarding a separate matter and would not get involved in that ongoing dispute even if it interested me. I trust the parties can work things out at the template talk page and that you will most likely choose the prudence of asking an uninvolved admin over the simplicity of self help next time you think admin action is necessary for this template. Any uninvolved admin is free to re-protect, including full protect, if consensus so develops and I will not take any position on same.--Doug. 21:14, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

User:The Squicks

Can you all tone down his language and possible misuse of multiple dynamic IPs (173.*.*.*) and maybe others? I think, now, I recognize it when I see it. Also, he's been called on his language before. -MBHiii (talk) 16:43, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

• To accuse someone of sockpuppetry is pretty serious. You should provide some diffs, and evidence to support your claims. Lychosis /C 18:39, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
• Also, User:The Squicks has been notified of this thread. Lychosis /C 18:50, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
  • I have no capability to make such an accusation, only to see a pattern, one that could also be produced by the Admin User:Ched Davis, say, who seems to use 173.*.*.* IPs following Squicks and reverting in his favor. I don't have the technical tools to make such investigations, but I can request those who do look into it. Squicks has accused me of being "sexually obsessed", as I recall, for trying to document and write about the original, rude, British meaning of "Yankee doodle." Such accusation, in the context of an edit dispute among people who are not friends, I consider, and most people I know, would consider libelous. That he sees me saying so as threat of a lawsuit is his own overreaction. Social norms reflected in law, without necessarily resorting to it, are often good guides. -MBHiii (talk) 00:08, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
    • Here's a good guide for you: When coming to WP:AN/I complaining that editors are logging in and out to edit war, try not doing it yourself at the very same time. It's pretty clear, from even a quick perusal of the edit histories concerned, that you are
      • 74.162.148.126 (talk · contribs) in the edit war at Teabagging,
      • 74.162.156.72 (talk · contribs) and 74.162.129.139 (talk · contribs) in the edit war at Yankee Doodle and on Talk:Yankee Doodle,
      • 74.162.156.72 (talk · contribs) in the edit war over an external link to a Youtube video at health care reform in the United States,
      • 74.242.231.34 (talk · contribs) and 74.162.156.72 (talk · contribs) in the edit war at Doodle,
      • all three of 74.162.147.56 (talk · contribs), 74.162.147.36 (talk · contribs), and 74.242.231.34 (talk · contribs) in the Obama-related edit war at Teabagger,
      • and a whole load of others besides.
    • And the edit wars that you are participating in on the user talk pages of many of these accounts, such as on User talk:74.162.151.64 and User talk:74.162.129.139 for examples, are descending into the absurd. Uncle G (talk) 02:06, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
    • It is my understanding that using IPs is no violation, except when used to avoid policies. I have no proof for whether the apparent pattern of IPs supporting Squicks is that, but you may, if you care to look into it. Thanks for calling him about his language, again, if you did. MBHiii (talk) 05:49, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

There is yet more that of Squicks that needs correcting:

Accusing "vandalism" when he's the vandal. Repeatedly replacing a blue link with a red one. Calling an official DHHS document (an "Order" in fact, directing policy change) merely "personal opinions of A government offical" (as if not reviewed and authorized as official).

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Pre-existing_condition&action=history

Accusing "vandalism" when he's the vandal. Repeatedly deleting a hidden note to other editors on a key point.

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Teabagging&action=history

Repeated failure to abide by consensus. Inappropriate vulgarity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Health_insurance_cooperative&action=history

-MBHiii (talk) 05:27, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

In all of those circumstances, you made edits that blatantly distorted the sources and then you accused any opposition to that distortion as "vandalism". You then started a persistent edit war to put your distortions into the articles, refusing to talk anything out. This is a particular pattern of you, given that this is exactly what you did at 'doodle' and 'yankee doodle' and 'tea party protest' and everywhere else you have edited.

Everything that you have me of- and I mean everything that have written above- was done by you first. I must admit that it is a shrewd move, attributing your actions to someone else to cover up your tracks, but it's not going to fly here. Other editors have noticed. The Squicks (talk) 05:54, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Mbii claims that a website blog statement labeled The Satirical Post (no, I'm not making this up, he really claims this) is a source for the statement "Teabagger' is now widely used to mean a participant in the Tea Party protests, a series of protests against the expansion of government spending in the USA in 2009 by opponents of the protesters and by protesters themselves."

He also took out an 'NPOV' tag when the issues were not resolved. His argument was "The dispute is resolved by our refusal to waste time with you", which is hilarious coming from someone expressing such touchy skin and feelings of hurt on this page.

Of course, all of his comments in the healthcare related articles (e.g. "Squicks needs to be banned", "reverting a determined vandal", etc) came when he was using multiple sock-puppets to get around editor consensus against his additions (which is completely against WP policy but- as you can see- he sees as a personal matter of pride having socks). This makes his thin skin now to be even more hilarious.

Don't forget, this is the editor who created the page for 'Bushcronium'. If you have never heard of it, Mbii made these claims=

Bushcronium's mass actually increases over time, as morons randomly interact with various elements in the atmosphere and become assistant deputy neutrons in a Bushcronium molecule, forming isodopes. This characteristic of moron-promotion leads some scientists to believe that Bushcronium is formed when morons reach a certain quantitative concentration level. This hypothetical quantity is referred to as "critical morass."

The Squicks (talk) 06:12, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

• I was new to WP, then, and didn't know there was no place for satire, but Squicks is an old, honored, and sometimes insightful editor, which makes all this a puzzle, explainable only by what appears to be ideological fervor. -MBHiii (talk) 06:37, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Icing on the cake is his libel threat. I enthusitically support going to court with him and having him explain his personal theory that the term 'Yankee Doodle' = 'Americans masturbate too much" to a typical Texas Jury (and how, by daring to question him on that, I have committed libel). The Squicks (talk) 06:05, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

• Don't know where he got the quote, ridiculous. The IP thing is old and I've addressed above. The Satirical Post points to something I've seen and heard, first hand, teabaggers publicly calling themselves Teabaggers at rallies; it just needs more references. -MBHiii (talk) 06:24, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

So you've seen something firsthand. And you claim that that is enough to put that material in an article?

I'm also wondering exactly where you got the idea for 'Bushcronium' from. What reliable sources was that from? The Squicks (talk) 06:27, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Regardless, you have to agree that for you to call me a vandal over and over again for what was you going against other editorial consensuses, and then for you to make a 180 and claim hurt feelings after your unsourced additions to various article are reverted is funny. Isn't it? The Squicks (talk) 06:30, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

• Recall I moved this disputed key point of mine into a hidden note to other editors, to seek sources, which Squicks deleted anyway. He didn't want even them to see it? -MBHiii (talk) 07:16, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Apparently, things haven't changed for you. You're still doing exactly the same things that you did when you first started-- adding content not represented by reliable sources, using sock-puppets, edit-warring, calling other people names, and so on.

When I read that you wrote "explainable only by what appears to be ideological fervor", I laughed. I recall that you once made an edit with the edit summary= The society that puts freedom before equality will end up with neither.

Which is an interesting political view (I suppose Barack Obama would agree, as would others here) but I can't believe that you used that summary as a justification for your editing! And then you accuse me of having "ideological fervor"... The Squicks (talk) 06:45, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

• It's quoted directly from his user page, with two words switched. -MBHiii (talk) 07:04, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

I think you two need to call it a wikiday and go take a break for a day. You're clearly at each others throats, and outside opinions will have to decide what to do here. In the meantime, you are both only making it worse for yourselves by carrying out your quarrel here. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ  _¢ 07:34, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

User:Mbhiii has been using socks to harass editors and evade 3RR before. Two recently indefinite blocked Mbhiii IP's are 74.162.150.109 and 65.246.126.130. Jmcnamera (talk) 12:59, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

This whole situation is extraordinarily stupid. User:Mbhiii, I warned you specifically about the use of the revert feature, or manually reverting people's edits. I am not seeing any attempt to engage this editor (or others for the most part) on talk pages when in a dispute. You seem to enjoy dancing around the edge of WP:3RR and in my opinion you've stepped over the line more than a few times, ironically in the very page histories you have posted here to "report" another editor. I've tried to assume good faith in this situation but that has been exhausted; there will be no more flirting with the line because there ought not be a line for you anymore. Same goes for User:The Squicks. You are both engaging in the same kind of tendentious and incivil edit-warring that is absolutely unacceptable. Next time I catch either of you serially reverting one another, calling each other a vandal (when there is clearly no vandalism going on - please read WP:VANDAL before you sling accusations) or engaging in any of this sort of behavior again, I will block you without any further warning. This behavior has been going on far too long. If you cannot learn to edit in a cooperative and collegial manner, then try disengaging from each other and finding something less contentious to edit. Shereth 14:16, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Clarification

Just to avoid confusion on this issue, what I am proposing here is essentially a WP:1RR restriction on User:Mbhiii and User:The Squicks with regards to one another's edits. Unless the community indicates to me that this is not an appropriate solution to the longstanting revert-wars they appear to be engaged in, I intend to enforce such a restriction. Shereth 14:42, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

User Simon Speed being disruptive

I'm having a serious problem with user Simon Speed, under justification this edits were vandalism, where he justifies that classification by assuming bad faith and pointing to old unrelated edits in my talk page, he ignored the last version, before those edits were made, and the earlier version of the article (before problematic changes in that article). Instead he reverted to a a specific version of the article that he liked better, without making that change explicit in the edit summary, restoring problematic and unreferenced content. That action was deceptive, unjustified, ignored the previous stable versions and, as many of his last actions disruptive. I think the user is having serious problem understanding Misplaced Pages's policies and editing process.--Nutriveg (talk) 13:32, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

It appears you are having a content war. From first glance Simon Speed seems to be attempting to adhere to a more neutral point of view. Not ALL of your recent changes fail NPOV, but enough were to justify the revert. For example, you changed the heading "Anal sex" to "Dangers of anal sex". You removed references to Christian promotion of abstinence and re-expressed it as if Misplaced Pages itself was advocating abstinence. I don't necessarily regard your edits as vandalism but they are POV biased and deserved to be reverted. You are unlikely to find many allies to your case here. Manning (talk) 14:02, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't know which specific edit you're talking. I'm talking about the latest. Where he says this edits were vandalism, but restored to another version that isn't neither the latest or the last stable version (before content dispute started). You can see more details on the article talk page.

I've made earlier changes on the article, but since Simon Seed was reverting all, I then restored to a previous version (before recent changes started), as it was, so we could discuss all the changes on top of that, as by the talk page. It doesn't mean I agree with that old version, right the opposite, otherwise I wouldn't have changed it into to that version (the first before Simon Seed started reverting)

I didn't change "Anal sex" to "Dangers of anal sex", that was simple the way it was in that earlier version. I didn't make any specific change for that purpose.

Christian promotion of abstinence was removed (13:13, 16 September 2009) under the following justification "Removed problematic text supported by no or unreliable sources, please don't readd without providing a reliable scientific source". I had former rewritten that section in a balanced way, but that change was reverted by Simon Speed, as all my edits in that article.

Abstinence was rewritten] citing reliable sources and presenting both POVs.

I would like to hear other administrators if that user behavior, which just reverts all my edits using prejudice argumentation (assumption of bad faith) is appropriate.--Nutriveg (talk) 14:45, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

You are perfectly free to appeal for the input of further admins. I will recuse from further comment. Manning (talk) 14:54, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

As with the Misplaced Pages:Wikiquette alerts#User systematically reverting my edits incident opened yesterday, I don't see a note at the user's talk page about this bit. I have added one. I also updated WQA to say this issue has been taken to ANI. - Sinneed (talk) 15:26, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Thank you to Sineed for informing me and thank you to Nutriveg for escalating this: this is one of the few points on which I am in agreement with them. Thank you to Manning for considering that my reversions on Safe sex were justified, however since that point Nutriveg re-reverted, then User:Cameron Scott reverted their edits, then Nutriveg re-reverted, then User:MishMich reverted their edits, then Nutriveg re-reverted and then I reverted their edits. Would anyone wanting to deal with this please note the following edits Nutriveg made to their talk page spanning most of their editing career :- 2009-09-19 2009-04-20 2009-03-12 2008-12-14 . --Simon Speed (talk) 19:44, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't see an actionable problem. Maybe I am being dense.

I do see a content dispute. I do see some too-large changes, some of which are problematic, some are not, all being done at once. Because 1 edit had such a wide range of changes, a single revert made MANY changes, and may make it "feel" as if all one's changes are being reverted.

I suggested to Nutriveg making more focused edits, so that it is easier to work with them, should an editor oppose.- Sinneed 20:59, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

That page is currently blocked for 3 days, but the dispute continues at Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Mammary intercourse. --Simon Speed (talk) 11:47, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Sinneed, I've already done that, reverted to an earlier version (7 September 2009) and started from there, but suddenly, after a few days user Simon Speed deleted all those edits and restored to a later version (16 September 2009) arguing vandalism. It's the second time he does that. He only reverts all my edits saying I'm acting in bad faith and doing vandalism.--Nutriveg (talk) 15:10, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

My last edit to Safe sex was at 19:18 on 2009-09-20 when I reverted to the last edit of neutral editor User:MishMich which Nutriveg had reverted. Nobody is editing that article at the moment and I am trying to stay out of the discussion as this is exhausting. Any admin can check the response the 2 new editors are getting from Nutriveg on the talk page. I am now trying to deal with the issue mentioned above which seems more and more like griefing. Lets face it, looking at past history, this user is a troll. I admit that I have fed them, but then trolls do what they need to to get fed. Will an admin please check the history, as after this Nutriveg will move on to new pages and new editors as they have done in the past. --Simon Speed (talk) 15:59, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

The edit that motivated this section, it's on top of it, was this, where using an excuse to revert vandalism you ignored that earlier version (7 September 2009) and reverted to later version (16 September 2009).

User:MishMich didn't knew the article history then but now is aware of the last stable version of the article. But you were well aware when you did that revert to (16 September 2009) instead of (7 September 2009), since you were there at the time it was done (because of the reverts made by you) and followed that argument in the article talk page.

You just reverting all my edits, attacking me of troll, bad faith and vandalism, instead of proposing content changes beyond reverting to unreferenced text, is exactly the problem we are having here.--Nutriveg (talk) 16:55, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Hi, user Simon Speed is Wikihounding me in the Bisphenol A article. Thank you.--Nutriveg (talk) 13:58, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

He also approaching other users in their talk pages asking them to avoid discussing the article content with me.--Nutriveg (talk) 18:28, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

It's strange you didn't link to the message in context, along with its reply. But then, reading the reply, maybe it's not :-)))) It must be a funny little world under that bridge. --Simon Speed (talk) 22:50, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

I have made an edit to Talk:Safe sex that may be controversial: see . If I was wrong, would any neutral editor please revert it. Otherwise, I will re-revert any of Nutriveg's reversions. This has got to stop! --Simon Speed (talk) 03:21, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Please someone act about this user behavior, he is making defamatory attacks everywhere, like in this talk page and in other users talk pages.--Nutriveg (talk) 03:25, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Once again context & responses are rather unsurprisngly omited. When I asked for assistance at the project pages I still believed in this user's good faith: I am beginning to regret luring good editors into the clutches of this creative and mischievous troll. --Simon Speed (talk) 11:31, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Unban of user ] (talk · contribs)

• Nareg510 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

According to this, the user above is a blocked sockpuppet of a previously banned user, the user who's name is part of the section title for this section. As I have understood things, when a user is community banned, it takes the community to unban them, not just a single unilateral unblock by an admin, as seen here. So far, the user seems to be acting good, so, what do you all say, keep banned, or unban? I'm neutral in this matter, I just think it is the community who should decide, not a single admin.— Dædαlus 19:54, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Er, I have no real opinion about the user per se. In blocking him, I was just acting on an AE report and on Versageek's checkuser finding, cited in the block log, that he's a sock of a confirmed sock of banned user Ararat arev. What I do find rude is Fred Bauder's decision to unblock him without prior consultation with either me or the admins who blocked/banned Ararat arev in the first place. But I assume this means he takes responsibility for this user's conduct and agrees to deal with Ararat arev-related issues from now on, yes?  Sandstein  20:06, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

I certainly agree to monitor him; as to assuming responsibility for all Ararat arev-related issues from now on, you must be joking... Although this experience, like all Misplaced Pages experience, will equip me to be more able to deal with this particular complex of trouble. I engaged in an extensive dialog with the user and notified you; I'm sorry if that was not enough for granting a provisional trial to this user. Fred Talk 20:23, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

I am not quite sure how to prove that I am not a sock puppet, master, or any account related to Ararat-arev. I do not want to be associated with this account. At this point, if I may be honest, I feel like I'm being punished for following Misplaced Pages's rules and not creating another account. Thank you to Fred Bauer, for taking my word and I will honor his trust. However, I do not want to be held responsible for any thing that happens with Ararat-arev, Ararat-arev issues and Mr. Bauer should not be held responsible either, because I am no way associated with that user. I was falsely accused of being a sock puppet and I am in no way one. If I was one, I wouldn't go through all this trouble right now and I would just create another account. I would like to be held accountable for the edits made on MY account and no one else's and would appreciate Misplaced Pages's support. I own the fact that I made a few errors in judgement on my account, but I will not take responsibility for other people's actions. Nareg510 (talk) 20:40, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

The evidence from my CU on this user tied him to Ararat-arev via a previously identified sock of Ararat-arev. The evidence tying him to both Turk00 (talk · contribs) & Prof.Tomson (talk · contribs) is particularly strong - to the point where "my roomate/friend/family member" would be the only plausible defense. I'm rarely adverse to giving someone a second chance - but it may be a bit too soon for this user.. --Versageek 22:20, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Support Unban

• Support. If the editor understands that there will be very little latitude. Welcome back. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 19:59, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
• Support I think it is best with any troublesome editor, when they say they are prepared to turn over a new leaf, to grant them a brief trial, and appropriate assistance with whatever problems they have had in the past. In this case help with identifying appropriate sources and editing productively rather than arguing about issues. If they appeal to the unblock-en-l mailing list, any administrator who monitors that list should be able to unblock them, provided they take responsibility for monitoring their behavior. It is not clear that the particular editor unblocked, Nareg510 is in fact the sock master Ararat arev (checkuser depends on a chain rather than a direct link). However, sock or not, if he is ready to edit responsibly, he should be given a trial period to demonstrate that. Fred Talk 20:17, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
• User is contrite and appears to understand the problem, there will be plenty of eyes watching for future problems, so why not. Guy (Help!) 20:27, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure why people are voting, not a constructive approach to this problem. I don't think the route Fred took on this unban (or, apparently, a separate instance of the same thing as described on his talkpage) was ideal, but since its done... It won't hurt much to take a wait and see approach on the Nareg510 account - particularly if Fred keeps a close eye on him. Nathan 20:30, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Oppose Unban

• No. This user has been sockpuppeting for at least 2 years. And he's been really busy: Category:Suspected_Wikipedia_sockpuppets_of_Ararat_arev. Now he says he's going to turn over a new leaf and you welcome him with open arms? Notice that he doesn't even acknowledge sockpuppetry: Category:Suspected_Wikipedia_sockpuppets_of_Ararat_arev. So I don't exactly have hopes this guy is going to reform. --Akhilleus (talk) 20:27, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

• First one I looked at, User:KahaneTzadak, is not blocked and the tag seems to be a joke. Guy (Help!) 20:29, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

• User:KahaneTzadak isn't blocked. I'm not sure the tag is a joke, exactly, though--it was added to his userpage in this edit by KahaneTzadak himself. What he did is transclude User: en onto his user page, thus transcluding the sockpuppet notice already on User: en's page. User: en is a checkuser-confirmed and blocked sock of Ararat arev: . This was KahaneTzadak's 18th edit (all of his editing took place on 30 May 2007, after which the account was apparently abandoned.) The easiest explanation for KahaneTzadak's knowledge of User: en is that he was User: en, and User:Ararat arev, and User:Alex mond, and so forth... --Akhilleus (talk) 23:22, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

• It looks like a typo on the user page of User:KahaneTzadak. {{User: en}} was probably intended to be {{User en}}. snigbrook (talk) 00:19, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

• Try looking at the suspected sock Alex mond (talk · contribs) and his history of anti-Semitic conspiracism and attacks against admins. Example: "Dont waste my time, we tried to fix this BS site, but it seems to remain in Jewish lies. And yes, the Jewish were involved in a hidden way of the Armenian Genocide." --Folantin (talk) 20:47, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

• This unblock is ridiculous. This user is even still denying he is Ararat Arev, still insisting he was "not a sock" both in his recent wiki postings and in the e-mail correspondence with Bauder. He has also made no commitment about how he plans to edit more constructively than he used to, other than a cheap and meaningless promise "not to edit-war again". The edit history of the most recent sock shows precisely the same disruptive behaviour as the original account and all the other socks. After the massive amount of disruption caused by this user, a unilateral unblock without any substantial assurance of change, without any substantive precautions against abuse, and without any community feedback, is completely unacceptable. No way. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:31, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
  • Reviewing further the behaviour of the sock and the extremely thin nature of his commitments towards the unblock arrangement offered by Bauder, I have re-blocked the account. There is absolutely no realistic basis for an un-ban here. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:00, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

• Yeah, the decision to unban was absolutely ridiculous. Ararat Arev (and his sock army) was the most disruptive user ever to infest Armenia-Azerbaijan topics. He's treated himself to plenty of "fresh starts" (he has 278 listed suspected socks). He's wasted hours and hours of good faith editors' time as they've attempted to counter his relentless POV-pushing and trolling. It's hard enough for the very few admins who actually bother to deal with Armenia-Azerbaijan conflicts without somebody who appears to have no clue about the issue granting a unilateral unban to such a disruptive user. --Folantin (talk) 20:43, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

• No. Just...no. Sockers almost never stop; I've seen examples of sockers promising to stop and mend their ways while at the same time running sockpuppet accounts. His word can't be trusted. HalfShadow 20:45, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
• Oppose Unblock over 278 socks he's had plenty of chances.--SKATER 12:45, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Voting is evil

1.  GARDEN  20:11, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Conclusion

Fred Bauder unblocked a purported sock of a banned community banned editor (per WP:BOLD or WP:IAR?) and Future Perfect At Sunrise has reblocked (per emerging consensus or application of WP:BAN?). Any admin action to revert Fut.Perf.'s block would be in violation of WP:Wheel, so it appears the requirement of further admin intervention is closed. The account may appeal the block through the usual channels. Can someone stick up a resolved template, unless there are disagreements with my understanding? LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:30, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

this was not the way to do it. When one admin comes here and asks for consensus, he doesn't usually mean to see who does what first. DGG ( talk ) 22:18, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't think Fut.Perf.'s action "resolved" anything at all. He preempted discussion and took action based on his own understanding of the situation, without allowing the discussion to proceed to a consensus. This is precisely the same thing folks have criticised Fred Bauder for doing. It's ironic, really, because not only does it replicate the same problem in the other direction (with the additional second mover advantage tossed in for good measure), it blocks a more useful and definitive conclusion on the question of whether Fred's action was appropriate. Nathan 22:23, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

i just recently noticed fred's arbitrary unblocking of another confirmed sockpuppet Tannim1 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), and thought it strange but noted that he took responsibility for the user. however, after looking at his talk page list of unblocked users, i wonder how it is possible for him to monitor all those accounts adequately. he seems to make arbitrary unblocks after private emailing with the user and no community discussion. this doesn't seem like a good way to handle these things and i think fred should be admonished to consult the community before acting in these situations. untwirl(talk) 22:47, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

No, it's definitely not a good way to handle things and it's not the way the unblock list or on-site block reviews have ever worked in the past. An admin helping on the unblock list has no more authority than an admin working on-site and they still need to follow the block, ban and administrator policies. The community is going to have to address this at some point because Fred's quite prepared to unblock, without discussion, users who shouldn't be unblocked on one person's say-so. The Tannim1 unblock looks very dodgy because Fred apparently overturned the block without a word of discussion with anyone but the blocked user and after at least five four admins had already reviewed the block but declined to unblock, which should have told him that there was no consensus to unblock. And if he still felt there was a good case to be made for giving the user a second chance, it should have been brought to the noticeboard for a discussion. Sarah 11:27, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Four admins. I reviewed twice because he kept blanking declined unblocks from his talk page, and in any case I noted he was deliberately lying in my second one (he claimed he was here for at least a year; his contributions, deleted or otherwise, run back to earlier this month). Why Fred would unblock someone who has been busted prevaricating is beyond me. -Jeremy 19:43, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Noted and corrected, thanks Jeremy. The problem is Fred thinks he can do whatever he wants and from his various comments such as the one above that anyone working on the unblock list should be able to overturn blocks as they see fit, he has a very strange and novel understanding of the unblock list as this is not how the list has ever worked, instead merely acting as an alternative to the unblock template with list reviewers having exactly the same "authority" as admins working on-site and expected to follow exactly the same policies. I should note for the record that I'm not exactly neutral when it comes to the issue of Fred and his unblock list methods. I've been working on the unblock list pretty much since it was started a few years ago and I've moderated it for more than two years but I've basically stopped working on it since Fred joined a few months ago, because of his behaviour and his refusal to follow policy. He has said it is best if only one admin handles all the unblock list emails and he seems to have achieved that as everyone else who was working on the list appears to have given up, so Fred is now doing whatever he wants with the list and we end up cases like Tannim1 and Nareg510. This is really a massive disaster waiting to happen and I really urge other admins to join the unblock list and actively help handle emails so it is no longer the domain of one man acting as a cowboy. The unblocking section of the block policy is pretty clear and straightforward and if Fred continues to ignore it, this will be going to arbitration as it's pretty clear to me that he's abusing his tools and violating the block, ban and administrator policies by acting unilaterally and refusing to engage in discussion with anyone but the blocked users before unblocking people. Sarah 04:36, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

In closing Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Ron Aryel, I came across Raryel (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), blocked for sockpuppetry but also unblocked by Fred Bauder with no prior consultation of the blocking admin. This practice of unblocking on a whim violates WP:BP and has to stop.  Sandstein  05:19, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

That sockmaster should be reblocked. He was blocked for abusive sockpuppetry, not COI.— Dædαlus 06:38, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Arguably, Fut. Perf has actually initiated a wheel war, since Fred reverted via unblocking an indef blocked account and Fut. Perf re-did the block; particularly since the matter was already under discussion here and there was no closure. Saying above that further unblocking would be a wheel war is incorrect and stifles discussion - even if that's not what was intended. Further unblocking without consensus here would be a wheel war. Personally, I think Fred was a bit generous with this to say the least but this was not part of a private discussion as suggested above but in response to an unblock-en-l ticket that was open to view to all list subscribers (it has been often noted that there are not enough admins subscribing to the list). Any subscriber could see the whole conversation as all replies are sent to the list normally.--Doug. 20:37, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure who you're referring to wrt someone claiming it was a private conversation, but if it's directed at what I said, I know it wasn't a private conversation. It was offsite with access limited only to certain people, and it was a conversation between only the blocked user and Fred. Policy and prior arb com cases are pretty clear about undoing each other's actions without discussion and about communication and I'm pretty sure this is going to end up at arbitration sooner or later. Unfortunately the problem with unblock-en-l is not the number of susbscribers - there's a heap of subscribers to the list - the problem is responders and since Fred joined in recent months the few people who were responding have pretty much stopped. However, as I've said, Fred has openly said he wants only one person (him) to handle all emails to the unblock list and for a long period he was redoing any replies that other admins sent which sent a pretty clear message that help wasn't welcome. So list responders and a lack of people helping him really is not the problem as the current state of the list is exactly what he wants. The problem is Fred thinks he has ultimate authority to do whatever and the community needs to take back control of the list and not allow it to remain as the domain of one person and to ensure that policy is followed with block reviews handled via the list as much as if they were onsite unblock requests. Sarah 04:48, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Primarily responding to untwirl's comment about private e-mailings (there didn't seem to be any knowledge that it was on the unblock list) but also yours regarding without a word of discussion which I simply felt together suggested this was done in secret, which it wasn't. I realize it was not a normal community discussion.--Doug. 04:58, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

We have run into the is issue before, it is problematic that the willingness or lack thereof of any admin to unblock is part of the definition of a ban in many cases; however, we often claim community rights to consent to the unblocking of a banned user. We also have a problem with making provisions for fresh starts but then claiming any attempt at a new account by a banned user is a sock. Whether any banned user must be brought before ANI for unblocking is a question that must be resolved at some point. But I think we should first resolve this matte and I think we should do it as if Fut. Perf. hand done nothing.--Doug. 20:37, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Comment

If the consensus is to unban this user (and I don't think that would be a good idea), then WP:ARARAT should be updated to reflect this. *** Crotalus *** 18:59, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Giano

Giano's comment I think steps over the edge of WP:NPA. He's usually more clever about dancing on the edge of the policy, but perhaps he tripped and fell over the line. As for tags and so forth, all articles are subject to them, and none, whoever wrote them, is immune. However, a tag should carry with it an obligation to set forth the problem on talk page, and to stay engaged. I agree that standards for FA are tightening, and that even FAs from 2004 or 2006 that have not deteriorated may need improvement to meet standards. Editors such as Mattisse are doing good work in that area.--Wehwalt (talk) 09:47, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

I assume you refer to "get a life, get an education and write a page yourself - you fool!" ()? I agree that this violates WP:NPA and WP:CIVIL. The user at issue, GiacomoReturned (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), previously editing as Giano II (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and Giano (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), has a long history of blocks for such behavior and should know better by now. I have blocked him for a week; we should consider an indefinite block on the next occurrence.

Since my last block of Giano triggered a remarkable drama, I invite community review of this block here (I have also added the "Giano" header above for ease of editing).  Sandstein  10:31, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Sandstein, you're feuding. Using the tools to feud is a serious offense. Jehochman 10:33, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

How am I feuding? I am not aware of being in a feud or some sort of editing dispute with Giano. (Sorry for inadvertently removing this reply with a buggy script.)  Sandstein  10:40, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

That's the devious thing about feuds. Sometimes the participants don't see them as feuds. The signs to me are that you're over-reacting to provocation, your response appears emotional rather than rational, and Giano does not view you as a neutral party. This one week block of Giano will cause much more harm than good. Calling somebody a fool is pretty mild. The action here turns a molehill into a mountain. Jehochman 10:44, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

I respectfully disagree. My (limited) previous interactions with Giano were in a purely administrative capacity; if Giano has not taken well to them, that is not my fault. I would have sanctioned any other user with a similar history of past disruption likewise, and I do not believe that the disruption at issue is mild. I invite you to show me a diff of any edit I made with respect to Giano that is emotional, otherwise inappropriate or somehow indicative of my being unable to act as a neutral administrator.  Sandstein  10:50, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Just above you said, "Since my last block of Giano triggered a remarkable drama," and then you asked for input at ANI (here) a page watched by >4000 editors. Lighting the fuse and tossing a drama bomb is what I'd call that. Jehochman 11:35, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

I'd call it asking for community review of a potentially controversial action, which is advised practice for admins as far as I know. So far, it is not I who is generating drama.  Sandstein  11:40, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Sysop tools are not to be used for controversial actions. When is doubt, ask for feedback BEFORE, not AFTER, acting. Jehochman 12:15, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

This was a non-issue to begin with, and it had gone away. Sandstein, as you admit your last block caused drama, it would be a good idea not to do the same thing again. Please unblock before this escalates. SlimVirgin 10:35, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

I disagree that severe violations of our conduct policies are non-issues, and Wehwalt's report indicates that it has not gone away. I am simply reacting to a disruption report on this page.  Sandstein  10:41, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

This thread was closed. It should have been finished business. It's classic, classic to the point of farce, for a closed thread to suddenly change topic to Giano and for him to be blocked. Just undo your action and start ignoring Giano. It will be best for all concerned. Jehochman 10:46, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Maybe any sense of déja vu is because of Giano's apparent persistent inability to observe our conduct policies? My job as an administrator is to prevent disruption to Misplaced Pages, not to ignore it.  Sandstein  10:52, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

You asked for input, Sandstein, you're being given it, and it's good advice. Please undo. SlimVirgin 10:52, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

I will do so, of course, if community discussion here - for a reasonable amount of time, to allow admins from all time-zones to participate - does not support my action.  Sandstein  10:54, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Sandstein, this was an insanely bad block, so much so that I'm wondering if we shouldn't block you for disruption. As JHochman points out, the thread was closed, your block was fueding / punitive which is exactly the kind of behavior which led to Jimmy having to "voluntarily" give up his block privileges. Poor judgment. Yes, there are those who are missing the point, below, who are supporting this block. They are viewing the post Giano made only. They are missing that you didn't prevent a damn thing; you've been involved in dramafests due to your quickness to block Giano before, making this block wrong even if everyone completely agrees Giano should have been blocked - as you were most emphatically not the person to do it - and of course, blocking on a very stale event which was provoked by one of the rudest people I've ever had to deal with, who started this mess by making threats and started the thread by accusing me and SV of "admin abuse" even tho no admin actions at all have been taken against her. This is pathetic; I agree with you most of the time, so it makes me even sadder to see your judgment go so thoroughly down the drain. Just don't do anything regarding Giano, Sandstein - you're not neutral and you're not following policy and you're causing problems not solving them. Puppy has spoken, puppy is done. KillerChihuahuaAdvice 11:38, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Why am I not the person to do it? I'm just an admin doing my job, and we're not usually allowing disruptive editors to choose the administrators that they are comfortable with to block them, yes? As mentioned above, I invite you to show me a diff of any edit I made with respect to Giano that is emotional, otherwise inappropriate or somehow indicative of my being unable to act as a neutral administrator. Unless there is community consensus that I am insufficiently neutral in this regard, I intend to do my job with respect to Giano just as I will do it with respect to other editors, with no particular favor or disfavor.  Sandstein  11:47, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

KillerChihuahua, I don't think you are to judge on this block, since you first removed an imaginary personal attack from Collectonian, but then saw fit to reinstate the blatant personal attack by Giano. For you to threaten other people with blocks for disruption in this incident is laughable.Fram (talk) 12:24, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Indeed. If anything, KillerChihuahua should be blocked for reinstatijng the attack, but that is something I'll leave to another admin.  Sandstein  12:32, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

• Good block. Giano gets away with too much too often. It won't stick, of course, because the usual cheering section for Giano's outrageous treatment of other editors is loud and cranky enough that they cause disruption until they get their way. And of course that just enables Giano the next time he decides to start hurling invective. → ROUX ₪ 10:57, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

  Wrong person. Sandstein blocked stale, blocked late, and this is not the first time. KillerChihuahuaAdvice 11:38, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

• I have no issue with this block. Giano stepped over the line, again, and was correctly blocked for it. Turning this into an ad hominem about Sandstein's theoretical feud with him (an argument I don't personally agree with) doesn't change the fact that Giano is still being seriously uncivil and one of these days he needs to actually stop doing that. ~ mazca 11:00, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

  Wrong person. Sandstein blocked stale, blocked late, and this is not the first time. KillerChihuahuaAdvice 11:38, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

• Adding a clear-cut personal attack (nothing behind the "keep" was an answer to the FAR rationale, it was only directed at the nominator) with a history of personal attacks is way over the line, I endorse this block. I hate blocking constructive contributors, and have no problem with giving them more leeway in some regards, but that doesn't include answering with a WP:PA to a good-faithed remark (And I don't think I ever commented on one of those before, so I consider myself uninvolved). Amalthea 11:12, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
• I'm also completely uninvolved. I see the block as fair enough. However IMHO if the previous block caused a drama then perhaps it would have been better to just put a notice on AN/I expressing your assessment to the community and let someone else take the required action. Regards Manning (talk) 11:19, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

  Precisely, thank you for looking at the larger issue. KillerChihuahuaAdvice 11:38, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

• Judging from my limited experience, any block of Giano will cause drama, mostly generated by people who appear to be his friends. Leaving the blocking to somebody else, therefore, would very likely have generated the very same drama and no appreciable benefit.  Sandstein  11:31, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

• Agree with block though in the interest of full disclosure I've had a run in with Giano in an editing capacity. I like to think the name wouldn't have mattered, that I would feel the same for any editor. Either way, I've given you my view and my COI which is why I took no action myself.--Wehwalt (talk) 11:27, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

  Which was a good call on your part; Sandstein should perhaps take note. KillerChihuahuaAdvice 11:38, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

• Well, you want uninvolved opinion so you can have mine. "You fool", whilst certainly falling under WP:NPA, would often merit a warning for many many users - not a block. In addiiton the duration between the comment and the block is less than optimal. One week as a block length seems to be total overkill. Mostly however - block first ask questions late (knowing that any Giano thread get's everyone up in arms) would not have been the way I'd have gone about it. In short, whilst the block is within policy(ish) I think it would be very advisable to now unblock. This seems a bit too much like punitive than preventative. Pedro :  Chat  11:49, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

• I disagree. The attack (completely unprompted, as far as I can tell) is not limited to "You fool" alone, and as to the length, it's just an escalating block, taking into account all the previous blocks (of previous accounts) from which Giano appears not to want to learn.  Sandstein  12:32, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

• Look, there's very little value in starting a thread "inviting community opinion" when you clearly aren't prepared to listen to it when given.Pedro :  Chat  13:24, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

• I am listening. I'm not required to agree with every opinion that is expressed.  Sandstein  13:26, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

• It appears that you've decided to listen only to those opinions you agree with, making this a pretty pointless exercise. Your judgement in making this block was clearly flawed, but that's not what you want to hear, so there's no point in reiterating what others have said. --Malleus Fatuorum 14:14, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

• While the blocking admin may say he is neutral all he wishes, I don't see that is the case, especially as it deals with Giano. Stale block, arbitrary time for usage of the word 'fool.' I'd unblock, but I used my one unblock and can only handle one straight-to-arbcom complaint at a time. Sandstein acts like a robot, reading a manual, and implies that he's the real victim because he has the burden of doing this job. Apparently policy is so clear about each and every administrative 'obligation' that it simply merits no discussion, ever. Law _{type! snype?} 12:14, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
• Support as the remark is an attempt at intimidation to prevent other such articles from being nominated at FAR. It attacks the nominator for a good faith nomination. It is also an attempt to disrupt FAR which in the past has been disrupted during nominations of articles by the same author. Because Giano has gotten away with similar and worse behavior in the past is not a reason for trying to stem it now. If Misplaced Pages wants to keep and retain editors, than this attack culture by regular editors must change. —mattisse (Talk) 12:26, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

• For those only reading the discussion and not the reason for it, the full PA was "get a life, get an education and write a page yourself - you fool!" A bit worse than just "fool", IMO. Fram (talk) 12:27, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

• I think the full context should be taken into account and that this was on an FAR page. Please read "Unexplained Admin Abuse by User:KillerChihuahua and User:SlimVirgin" above which involved attacks on the same editor over the same article. This is a pattern of abuse that occurs at FAR when articles by a specific editor are nominated by any editor. Often the abuse starts on the article talk page, as an editor seeks a simcere discussion of the article. —mattisse (Talk) 12:37, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
• A week, for God's sake, and for a stale remark?! Gar, somebody shoot me already. "Excessive" is the only word that applies here. But what should I expect from this stupid website run by rulemongers, anyway? As usual, we waste our time with Da Rules instead of an encyclopedia. Anyone looking to fork? I'd be really glad of a website that is actually about articles and such. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 12:54, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

• The complete quote is: "Keep; get a life, get an education and write a page yourself - you fool!" This is an utterly obvious NPA vio and certainly not falling within the standards of civility that one would expect to find on-site. Combine this with the previous remedies that have attempted to dissuade the blocked user from engaging in this type of discourse on-site, and there are reasonable grounds for a block of some sort. I don't believe the calls to completely reverse the block as null and void are justified at all, even if some of the voices are becoming predictable at these discussions. That said, any calls to keep the block duration as it is would not be justified either. Looking at the most recent of his block-log entries, I see two 24hr blocks (one in May and one in July ) which appear to have been OK'd. In such circumstances, to progress to a 1 week block in September is overkill.
• In summary, reasonable grounds for a block of some sort, but the duration of this particular block should be decreased (if not by the imposing administrator, someone completely uninvolved if possible) - the duration should be one that is more appropriate; definitely not longer than 72 hours from when the violation occurred. Ncmvocalist (talk) 13:01, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

• Disagree with such an extensive block. Jehochman is correct, as far as I can tell; the block was issued after-the-fact, and does not apparently do anything to prevent damage to the project. –Juliancolton |  13:16, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
  • Julian: If Giano were to get blocked for his nasty behaviour--and more importantly, if those blocks would stick and not get overturned by a very small and very dedicated group--one might hope that it would have some chance of ameliorating his behaviour. As it stands, he has a free pass to say just about anything he likes, because he knows that within 24 hours, maybe a little longer, enough of his crew will scream and shout loud enough to get the block removed. And then he gets to do it again. And again. And again and again and again. Giano's blocks need to stick--he will not stop otherwise. And they need to start following a pattern: next offence, one week. After that, one month. Then three, six, 12. Oh blah blah blah, blocks aren't punitive--we all know that's a lie. But in this case they would prevent the guaranteed future personal attacks from him. We know they'll come, so no use pretending otherwise. → ROUX ₪ 15:56, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
    • I fully agree that something needs to be done to prevent further incivility from Giano, but as you said, the dozens of blocks thus far have done little, if anything, to help. Therefore, blocking for one week for what seems a relatively minor incident in the grand scheme of things is not the most appropriate course of action, at least in my opinion. Moreover, blocking under fairly controversial circumstances will in all likelihood do little else than fuel the flames, so a provisional stern warning might have had the same, if not more, effect. –Juliancolton |  17:00, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
      • The dozens of blocks haven't done anything because they are always reduced or removed. If they start sticking, Giano will be forced to realise he will be taking long timeouts for his nonsense, and at that point he will have to calculate whether it's worth more to be able to attack people or edit freely. As it stands, he gets both--not an acceptable state of affairs. → ROUX ₪ 17:40, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
• I take no position on the justifiability of blocking Giano for his comment. However, Sandstein should certainly not have been the one to take action. Giano has been commenting about the Eastern Europe Mailing List ArbCom, where there have been numerous comments about Sandstein having been manipulated by the mailing list participants. Giano's disapproval for the alleged activites of mailing list participants is clear, as is Sandstein's sensitivity to claims he has been manipulated, so it would be understandable if Sandstein's objectivity is a little off at the moment. I don't know whether thier mutual connection the case fits within the letter of WP:INVOLVED, but it sure makes me think Sandstein's claim of neutrality look tarnished. Added to the action being late, on a stale issue, and pretty harsh (even as an escalating block), I think this action looks extremely unwise. Sandstein, I suggest you reverse the block before someone else does. If the recent WMC case shows anything, it shows that ArbCom and "involved" blocks during a case are dangerous territory for admins. EdChem (talk) 13:18, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

• I am not responsible for any edits Giano might have made with respect to me. It would be ill-advised to discourage admins from blocking editors who might have previously attempted to offend them, because otherwise a disruptive editor would only need to attempt to offend enough people in order to claim immunity from being blocked by them. (Maybe that's what Giano's trying to do here?) As said above, I invite you to show me a diff of any edit I made with respect to Giano that is emotional, otherwise inappropriate or somehow indicative of my being unable to act as a neutral administrator.The mailing list matter was and is far from my mind here.  Sandstein  13:33, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

• This is a rather interesting issue; I did not touch on whether Sandstein should've been the one to take the action, or otherwise in my review above. I'm concerned that a lot of claims are being made, while not enough evidence is being presented here to actually substantiate a lot of it. EdChem (or anyone else who can help), could you please provide diffs to the comments Giano made that related to Sandstein? Ncmvocalist (talk) 14:01, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

• Sandstein, you have misunderstood my point - please allow me to clarify. I am not suggesting that either you or Giano has made an emotional "diff" about the other. Whether it turns out to be true or not, the claim has been made that you have been influenced by those on the mailing list. This is not to say you have acted improperly - it could be about mailing list participants allegedly provoking others into unwise actions, which you then sanctioned without knowing there was deliberate tag-team provocation in the background. It would be natural and understandable for your judgement to be a touch off with all this going on. Equally understandable would be a dseire for the mailing list issue to just go away, seeing as you feel you have not been influenced in any of your administrator actions - or even maybe feel some anger about being caught up in the whole mailing list issue. Then, along comes an incident where Giano, one of those making a lot of noise about the mailing list, has arguably violated WP:NPA. It's stale, the thread is settled, and you've had a controversy with Giano over a block before - but you still decide to block, and for a week. Can you really be 100% sure you were acting objectively and neutrally, with no influence from any of the background? Also, can you see why it might look from the outside like a less-than-wise decision? Maybe I'm totally wrong and am seeing something that isn't there... maybe I'm not. In any case, I remain of the view that you were and are the wrong person to act in this situation - but you are the right person to undo this block and end this controversy. EdChem (talk) 14:09, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Ncmvocalist, some relevant background material that you (and others) might wish to consider...

• The Eastern European Mailing List ArbCom case was first raised at AN/I in this thread, which first raised the possibility that Sandstein had been influenced by mailing list members' activities. "They specifically discussed how to nurture special relations with Sandstein and use them to block their enemies", according to the initial post in the thread. It is relevant to note that the thread was itself a spin-off from another thread, titled Massive problem with admin User:Sandstein.
• It is also relevant to note Sandstein's reaction to the claims made: "I do not take kindly to any attempts to be used as an instrument in any plots, and may need to check whether any of my recent enforcement actions in this area require reconsideration (though I do not believe that I have been influenced by anybody, and have as far as I know not communicated offwiki with any involved parties". This shows Sandstein was concerned about the possibility that he may have been influenced.
• The "massive problem" was a ban imposed by Sandstein on Russavia. Giano's view was clearly expressed here when he wrote "Sandstein, your bulying and threatening is now becoming a problem. I strongly suggest you back off, before others take action against you. You are too involved with Russavia now for your judgement to be sound or trusted. Please let others deal with these matters. You are only an ordinary admin please stop crediting yourself with airs, graces and powers to which you are not entitled. Russavia, you need to clarify your meaning."
• Following the opening of the ArbCom case, Giano commented to Russavia that "There is already more than enough evidence doing the rounds for you to be unblocked unconditionally. I think it would be a pleasant and concillitory gesture if Sandstein were the one to lift any sanctions against you. He has been, in a way, as much a victim as you. I hope he is big enough to see that." Sandstein was notified of this comment by Giano here.
• Giano's view of the mailing list issue: "Thank you. I have definitively formed my opinion. Those concerned are in the mire up to their little necks. The only question following such organised and long term abuse, cabalism and manipulation of Admins and subsequently Arbcom cases is quite how one makes such an example of these people that no-one is ever attempted to be party such a thing ever agian. (Incidentally, for those wondering, Sandstein was not a member of this cabal, but one of those manipulated). My view is that the only option is making them all permanently banned users - The full extent of their actions will probably never ne known, but their proven Wiki-crimes and the damage they have caused, and the innocent reputations permanently tarnished, is too severe for anything less. I don't think any other view is possible or any excuse plausible."
• This background information is provided without comment, simply for others to consider as part of what led to my comments above. EdChem (talk) 15:03, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

• Cheers EdChem; that's clarified a lot for me. Ncmvocalist (talk) 15:29, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

• If the block dissuades abuse of editors for nominating such articles at FAR, the the block will prevent future damage to the project. As to length, that I do not know as there seem to be widely varying standards on such matters. —mattisse (Talk) 13:22, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
• Christ almighty, this again? I'd like to note without amusement that this block has spawned a number of battleground behaviors assumptions of bad faith and outright nastiness. I congratulate all of you, with the deepest of sarcasm, on managing to collectively and completely bury the lead, making it impossible for a user to actually understand what is going on here.--Tznkai (talk) 13:58, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

• I'm trying hard to feel outraged, at either the stupid comment or the dumb block or the inescapable march toward pointless drama that followed. But I find that I just don't care anymore. I used to be firmly in Giano's corner, and in general, I still feel a bit more of a kinship with those who are traditionally his Friends, than I do with those who traditionally his Enemies. But lately, he seems less interested in what's Right and what's Wrong, and more interested in who's a Friend and who's an Enemy. His Friends will likely deny that; his Enemies will likely claim he's been like that all along; but I'm comfortable in my opinion. He's finally succumbed to just playing Misplaced Pages The Game with the rest of his Friends and Enemies.

  I try not to care what happens to those playing The Game. The only effect is has on the rest of us is keeping ANI up at the top of our watchlists, making Misplaced Pages look ridiculous to others, and wasting our time when we're weak and momentarily succumb to caring about The Game ourselves.

  But since I am weak, and have succumbed myself, I just want to register my disappointment in pretty much everyone involved. Sandstein: It's possible to communicate with other humans without jumping to the block button. Giano: Content-free insults? Is that what you're reduced to? Worse, inelegantly pedestrian insults?. KC: Inexplicable restoration of an insult, from someone who a few weeks ago asked me to remove a much milder "unhelpful" comment. Please, please don't tell me that you define "helpful" and "unhelpful" as "agrees with KC" and "doesn't agree with KC".

  Luckily, I can solve the "Giano Problem" for myself by unwatchlisting ANI for a day or two, until this either dies down, or you all get a subpage and go play there instead. I recommend this method to whoever has the willpower to do it themselves. --Floquenbeam (talk) 14:01, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

  I'm in complete disbelief you even considered, let alone posted, such a foul accusation against me. Did you bother to read my edit summary in that post? No? I didn't think so. KillerChihuahuaAdvice 15:01, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

• I'm not going to question anyone's efforts here (WP:AGF and all), but I am wondering what the "heat to light" ratio is going to be in the end. All for a FAR? Just seems to me to be another drama chapter in the Misplaced Pages MMORPG at the moment though. At least in my opinion. — Ched :  ?  14:23, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

• I've seen different editors comment that the issue was stale, too old, or something similar. While I understand that you shouldn't block for things that happened months or years ago, I fail to see why a block of a regular editor for conduct that happened less than 12 hours before, and which fits in a regular pattern, would be a bad thing or too late. The core of our blocking policy is "Blocks are intended to reduce the likelihood of future problems, by either removing, or encouraging change in, a source of disruption. They are not intended for use in retaliation, as punishment, or where there is no current conduct issue which is of concern." Giano has (as an editor) long-term civility problems, some of it excusable, some of it not. This is a current problem (as in, happening in the last 24 hours), and he should be strongly encouraged to change his behaviour. A week long block may send the message that many editors are fed up with this aspect of his contributions, and that all the good he does and has done is no excuse for such remarks. It also indicates that if he does continue like this, his next block may be a month, and so on. That the remark came half a day before the block seems highly irrelevant to me in this case. Fram (talk) 14:22, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

More reruns? Seriously, lets try adjusting the plot a little bit the next time this episode airs. Chillum 14:27, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

? Could you explain your reply? It's unclear what you would want to adjust and in what way. Fram (talk) 14:39, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

This entire thread has happened on this page several times before. I was not responding directly to you, but rather to this thread. Chillum 15:04, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

You might want to take more care with your indentations, then. Indenting like that made it appear you were replying directly to Fram, as I am replying to you. — The Hand That Feeds You: 15:33, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Apparently, asking for inline citations is enough to push some people over the edge of civility. This isn't as bad as the "nuclear meltdown" of another user last week in similar circumstances. By now Giano got the message that his remark was inappropriate. Perhaps the block length could be reduced to a standard 24h one? Pcap ping 16:24, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

If Giano has gotten the message and credibly apologizes for his personal attack, I'll unblock him at once. Unfortunately, I do not believe that this has ever happened in any of the past incidents that caused him to be blocked. At any rate, we can't know until he reacts to the block.  Sandstein  16:46, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Demanding apologies for an unblock is what stinks the worst about this block, Sandstein. Such demands should never be made. Bishonen | talk 19:53, 21 September 2009 (UTC).

One need not call it an apology, but I do think that Giano needs to understand - and say so - that the manner in which he interacts with those he disagrees with (generally through insults, it seems) is disruptive and will stop. That's a rather basic thing, and normal practice, to expect from blocked disruptive users.  Sandstein  19:58, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

• Sandstein is DEFINITELY involved with Giano and they have been in repeated disputes in the past. This block also stinks beacuse there was no discussion or effort to resolve the issues in a reasonable collegial fashion. We must expect better from our admins. You're not here to add fuel to the fire, but to help resolve disputes so the content work and article creation can be aided. Bad block. Sanctions against Sandstein may be needed. ChildofMidnight (talk) 16:31, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

• ChildofMidnight (and Law, above) may be a bit cross with me at the moment because of Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case#Law's unblock of ChildofMidnight, so I guess his comments may need to be taken with a pinch of salt. I'm still interested to hear what all these disputes are that Giano and I are supposed to be involved in, though. I remember none. I did block Giano (once, I believe), which led to a dramatic discussion much like this one, and since then, Giano has made disparaging comments about me whenever he seems to come across me; I have been ignoring that. I do not think that this makes me too "involved" to act as an administrator here.  Sandstein  16:42, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

• You can use as much salt (and pepper too) as you like, but when you note "Giano has made disparaging comments about me whenever he seems to come across me," that suggests that letting one of the many admins that DOESN'T have that history deal with the issue would have been the way to go. Have you considered that if one of Giano's friends had suggested he refactor the comment we might have been able to avoid all this drama entirely? And indeed it is very similar to your recent policy violating 30 day block against me which included numerous false statements and misrepresentation of my editing history and block log, when a simple request not to edit an article would have sufficed. More courtesy and common sense would result in a lot less drama. I know you're editing in good faith and that I've said some nasty things, but civility is a two way street Sandstein and you have to treat your fellow editors with respect and consideration. Otherwise you're not likely to get much in return. ChildofMidnight (talk) 17:41, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

• I entirely agree with that last sentiment and invite any user to show me a diff where I have not displayed proper respect and consideration to Giano or anybody else. (As to your block, that's currently under arbitration, so let's not discuss that.) But as to your first point, no. We can't let users game the system by allowing them to choose who may block them and who may not. If we consider an administrator to be "involved" just because he has been repeatedly derided by the user at issue (as I have), without ever reacting to these comments (as I have), we're allowing just that - and we're encouraging more personal attacks, too.  Sandstein  18:03, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

• Did you suggest to Giano that he refactor his comment? Or better yet, given your history with Giano, did you think to drop a note off to Bishonen and/or Lessheardvanu that it would be good if someone asked if he'd be willing remove or refactor the offending statement? Wouldn't this have been a way to resolve the the dispute with the least possible drama and without the need for any blocks? PREVENTATIVE!!! Your actions don't show respect or consideration for your fellow editors. You refuse to make reasonable attempts to resolve disputes in a collegial way. Just because you can justify a block or argue effectively that an infraction occured doesn't make your enforcing actions right. Look at all this disruption and drama your actions have caused. You expect Law to discuss fixing another of your egregious blocks (and it looked to me like he did, but that you blocked and ran without sticking around to respond to questions), but you refuse to engage in any discussion regarding your own decision making process before taking action. Try working through disputes without using your tools. Even in article building you've ignored polite requests to discuss content. I have found you to be exceptionally rude and uncivil. Try collaborating for a change and stop shooting first and asking questions later. You do a lot of great work, but your approach is NOT civil or respectful to your fellow editors. This not a police state, it's a community where we collaborate to build an encyclopedia and Giano is one of our most distinguished contributors. Maybe after this is all blown over you can reach out to him and thank him for all his good work. He edits in good faith just like you do. You are both human and prone to make a mistake now and again. It's not fair to expect everyone to be perfect like I am.ChildofMidnight (talk) 19:17, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

• Giano has a long history of incivility, so no, taking such extra measures of communication is no longer a feasible or productive use of admin time. Try to keep your beef with admins over your ArbCom case from spilling into unrelated issues, eh? Tarc (talk) 19:30, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
• (ec) Hmm, but at some point, all the good will and good-natured nudges to try and play nice have to come to an end. Giano is a big guy, does he really need his friends to suggest not making personal attacks? I mean, look at the block log, for crying out loud, hasn't he realized that by himself? Amalthea 19:32, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

• Are you running out of good will Amalthea? How sad. :) People make mistakes. Giano is a very valuable editor who is passionate about his work. It seems practical to try and get mistakes fixed when they occur instead of circling them, highlighting them, sticking them in peoples faces, and creating massive dramas so we can argue endlessly over them. No one has suggested it's a good idea to call each other fools (even though there are many among us). :) We are human. We make errors all the time. The beauty of a wiki is that we can work together to help each other and we can fix all the mistakes that inevitably happen. This approach makes editing collegial and collaborative and combines our strengths. Playing gotcha and busting each other when we mess up just puts everyone on the defensive and encourages a gangland and battlefield mentality where editors feel compelled to team up in order to get some protection. Disputes are often long over, while the arguing over the "incivility" goes on. What good does that do? Give peace a chance. (In a noble display of following my own advice I'm going to lead by example and refrain from commenting to or about Tarc ). ChildofMidnight (talk) 20:16, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

• Out of patience, rather.
  I don't see this thread as an end in itself. And seriously, are you expecting that this is the last civility thread about Giano? Is the underlying problem really resolved? Don't get me wrong, I have no issues with being blunt with vandals, POV-pushers, and other disruptions, or calling out bullshit in general. A certain confrontational nature is also required to get things moving here, so I welcome that. I like reading Giano's essays, for example, I like seeing him call out organizational issues on Jimbo's talk page. It stops with personal attacks directed at other constructive editors though. I can even forgive that a lot of times. It can happen, as you say. But I want to see an effort to try and avoid that, and I don't see that from Giano, not in this case (I realize he has an "away" message on his talk page, but reinstating the personal attack at the FAR says a lot), and I'm not aware of anything following recent blocks or threads here. An effort to oblige with WP:5#Code of conduct, to keep a collaborative and constructive atmosphere. In the long run, I think that's worth more than one exceptional editor. Am I asking too much there? Am I too naïve? Amalthea 21:12, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

• As a general point, civility policy is not a rule made in a vacuum. First, it is a positive claim that we want editors to act with a certain amount of decorum and cordial behavior, for the mutual benefit of all. Second, and more on point, incivility, especially personal attacks, are distracting. They end to quickly sidetrack conversation from the point at hand (ideally content) to fights either wikipolitical or personal. The aim should be to avoid these tangential and ultimately pointless discussions.--Tznkai (talk) 17:11, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

• I would support a block of Sandstein. The idea that he is only an admin doing his job rings hollow considering his COI with Giano. He should have gone to another admin to do any blocking. Good luck. --70.188.131.232 (talk) 17:24, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
• Endorse block per Roux; it was blatantly a personal attack, and Giano has had a long history of them. Why should he be exempted from WP:CIV? 70.188.131.232 – don't be absurd, we don't block admins except in cases of genuine and serious abuse. ╟─TreasuryTag►consulate─╢ 17:30, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

• I don't believe in "civility blocks" on pragmatic grounds; they don't make the blocked party any more civil, and they make everyone else less civil (cf. this entire thread). I'm reminded of Loeb's Second Law of Internal Medicine: "If what you're doing isn't working, stop doing it." So I disagree with this particular action of Sandstein's. But perhaps we could disagree with a specific action without impugning the character of the admin in question? As far as I've seen, Sandstein is an excellent admin who does good work in some of the project's most troublesome areas. This isn't Mortal Kombat; we can disagree without going for the fatality. MastCell  17:43, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

• • Blocking Giano does nothing useful. Ban him, or do nothing. Prodego 17:46, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

• • • I concur. If blocks are a preventative measure and not punitive, and in Giano's case they don't have the desired effect of halting his behavior, maybe stronger medicine is needed. Heironymous Rowe (talk) 18:35, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

• Well, there is the possibility that he reacts to this block with an unblock request apologizing for his behavior and sincerely pledging not to do it again. In the case that he does not, I agree that further blocks are unlikely to prevent him from causing further disruption, so a ban would be the logical consequence.  Sandstein  18:45, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

• Seems a reasonable block to me, this editor has a history of making personal attacks and has been instructed by ArbCom to "avoid sweeping condemnations of other users when he has a grievance, more light, less heat." Tim Vickers (talk) 17:53, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

• I'd love to see comparisons of byte counts of "content that Giano has contributed" verus "meta-wonkery Giano has inspired". His content had better be really fucking good for the megabytes of non-content stuff about him people wade through. NotAnIP83:149:66:11 (talk) 18:12, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Giano hasn't contributed to this discussion at all. So to blame him for our decision to talk about it seems outrageously unfair. And yes, he does fabulous article and essay work. You should check it out. ChildofMidnight (talk) 19:32, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

An admin's reactions to Giano's actions is usually what starts these enormous threads. Giano is the cause of these threads, even if they're fuelled by editor reaction to admin action. (Where's the meatball wiki VestedContributors link when I need it?)NotAnIP83:149:66:11 (talk) 22:52, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

• Seems reasonable as well. When a user keeps repeating the same actions that he's been warned of in the past, we shouldn't be just nicely asking him not to do it for the 9th, 10th, 99th time. Tarc (talk) 19:30, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

• I disagree with this block. I don't think we will achieve anything because of this block, instead this block will generate more drama. And Sandstein had disputes with Giano multiple times. AdjustShift (talk) 19:33, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

• I'm sorry to sound like a broken record, but, what disputes have I had with Giano?  Sandstein  19:43, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

• During the recent Russavia case, Giano and you had disputes with each other. AdjustShift (talk) 20:30, 21 September 2009 (UTC)
• Giano criticized your administrative actions during the Russavia case. It may have been better if another admin would have decided what to do with Giano. This is at least how I feel; others, of course, can disagree with me. AdjustShift (talk) 20:37, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

• That he criticized my actions does not constitute a dispute. It takes two for that. As far as I know, I never reacted in any way to any of his criticisms. Besides, as a moderately active admin, I am criticized every day by the many users I take administrative actions against and by their friends (and socks), and by people who just have a different opinion (such as many in this thread); if I were not allowed to block any of them ever again if they cause disruption, I'd soon be pretty useless as an admin.  Sandstein  20:49, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

• There are plenty of very good admins who almost never block anyone. Admins who cease editing articles and become self appointed policemen can easily start to get a bit carried away with the authority issues. As you say, there are many in this thread that disagree with you. Your statement that you would be useless as an adin if you couldn't block anyone reveals a lot. Off2riorob (talk) 13:58, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

• The problem is that Giano is unable to ever let go of a perceived slight, and will continually (and sometimes continuously) complain about any admin who takes any action with which he disagrees, even if that action had no connection with Giano's activities, and even if that person ignores Giano's carping. What happens when Giano runs out of admins to complain about? There are a few admins who will always back Giano (and about whom Giano will never complain), but the rest of us cannot be expected to not block him when he misbehaves because he's bitched about us in the past. Horologium (talk) 13:32, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

• The block is acceptable on principle, as editors are expected to discuss content disputes respectfully and with an eye on the content dispute itself, and not with an intent to personally disparage the person they are talking about. "This article is still feature quality because of A, B and C" is acceptable. "Shut up and go away" is not acceptable. However, the duration is excessive for the offense. Thatcher 14:57, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

  Indeed, this is precisely what I suggested when I restored Giano's comment - my edit summary was "please discuss with G". I was trying to prevent precisely this kind of nonsense. Instead of anyone noticing my advice to discuss the issue, as DR and common civility indicates, Sandstein opines I should be blocked as well - further reinforcing that he is moving towards the "block everyone who doesn't act like I think they should" mentality - and Floquenbeam actually states, for which I am still in shock, the possibility that I "side with those who agree with me" - clearly Floquenbeam has spent damn little time on Sarah Palin articles, or any articles I've taken admin actions on the editors of. This is so insulting I am beside myself with disbelief. KillerChihuahuaAdvice 15:08, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

• Thatcher, I do not object to you reducing the block to whatever you think consensus here deems appropriate (while noting that the block, as such, has merit). But I would advise against it, because the discussion about what length of block is appropriate for which offense makes only sense if one thinks of blocks as punitive. They are not; they are intended to prevent continued disruption, and as such they should (as I have also argued below) last exactly as long until the blocked user credibly states that the conduct for which he was blocked will not reoccur. Since that is not yet the case (as Giano's reaction shows), reducing the block duration would be detrimental to the block's purpose of preventing the reoccurrence of such disruption. (Also, of course, I believe that even in conventional terms the block length is adequate when Giano's long block log for similar disruption is considered.) That said, if the community expresses that it considers my blocks in general to be excessively long, I will of course bring my blocking practice into conformity with community consensus.  Sandstein  15:37, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

• Based on that logic, I would suggest that you indef yourself and leave, because you have caused far more disruption over Giano's comment than he has. You are the only disruption right now, and you have threatened multiple people against our policies. That is two fold abuse. Ottava Rima (talk) 15:40, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Part of the "blocks are preventative" theory is that someone who is blocked frequently for the same offense is likely to learn not to repeat the offense. If Giano were blocked 48 hours every time he told someone to shut up and go away, instead of discussing the merits of the issue, and if these blocks were stable and non-controversial, he would soon learn to stop saying it. Naturally the same block policy would apply to other editors who do the same thing, although starting at a shorter duration. I don't think that the "prevention" theory requires giving people long blocks which are reduced when they apologize, and I'm not a fan of coerced apologies. Thatcher 15:48, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

I think that coerced apologies get the project nowhere and User Sandstein seems to have a developing self stated history of this type of block and also gets upset if another admin unblocks without discussion with him. (upset to the point of opening an arbcom case) Blocking someone excessively and then saying you will reduce said block if they come and apologise and promise never ever to call anyone a fool again is a bit of a no win situation (for the wiki anyways) people feel more upset if they feel they have been excessively treated and are actually less likely to apologise. As for the excessive block on CoM, here is a diff of someone who is (I think) a clerk, pointing out to Sandstein that he was taking action that was not in his juristiction and requesting he stay away in future. Off2riorob (talk) 16:02, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Thatcher, part of the "blocks are preventative" theory is that blocks are used rarely and have actual meaning. WP:NPA - "The appropriate response to inflammatory statements is to address the issues of content rather than to accuse the other person of violating this policy". It does not say "block at the drop of a hat". The use of blocks in such a situation in such a wide spread way makes the idea of blocks meaningless. It also makes the policy itself meaningless. You have a few options 1. ignoring it, 2. stating that it does not help the issue, or 3. dealing with the issue addressed. There is no option 4 that states "if you have a conflict of interest, make an outrageously long block to ensure maximum drama on ANI". Ottava Rima (talk) 16:05, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Perspective

No Personal Attacks means to not comment on the real life identity. Saying "you fool" is a characterization of actions - "you are acting foolishly" is what it means. He did not say "you are stupid", he didn't say "you dumb Welsh/Jew/Black/Russian/etc", he didn't say "fuck off, you dumb prick", etc. To say that this is an egregious violation of NPA (which NPA and CIVIL both say it must be -egregious- to warrant a block) would be a misinterpretation of NPA and CIVIL. I think such blocks as above, especially for one week, further undermine both NPA and CIVIL, set a bad tone, and show a misuse of blocks as a whole. "fool" might be unpleasant discourse, but to give it such a reaction is to add to it what clearly does not exist. Ottava Rima (talk) 19:47, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Totally agree, excessive blocks undermine the project and create a disrupted editing enviroment. This seems to be a recent pattern of excessive wanton big ban hammering, I support a reductiion of Giano's week block Off2riorob (talk) 19:55, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

• The fact that you try to make out that there was nothing personal in what he said is a worry, Ottava Rima, particularly when what he actually said "get a life, get an education and write a page yourself - you fool!" Ncmvocalist (talk) 06:29, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Block time is about right, shorter blocks haven't helped and the general route is to lengthen them when dealing with problematic behaviour. And what "you fool" means is >you< are a fool and certainly is a personal attack. Again, this isn't a one-off occurance. It's a pattern, so saying the block is too long is to ignore the history here. RxS (talk) 20:02, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Just indef him if he is not learning by the punishments. (this is of course a cryptic comment) Off2riorob (talk) 20:06, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Please reread what NPA states. Fool is a behavioral characteristic. Race is not. Sexuality is not. Intelligence is not. Your clear misunderstanding is problematic and is not within either the spirit or letter of NPA. Ottava Rima (talk) 20:19, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

No, someone being foolish is a behavioral characteristic. Your wiki-lawyering aside, calling somone a fool is a personal attack just about anywhere you go. Generally when someone starts parsing the rulebook this closely they know they are on thin ice or just taking a postition. Either way, the block was good and the length is about right. RxS (talk) 20:37, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

You do realize that the term "wikilawyer" is incivil and your use of it only verifies that you don't understand appropriate conduct. I suggest you stop before you dig yourself into a whole that you wont be able to climb out again. Grammar and language is against your false understanding. Consensus is against your false understanding. Tradition is against your false understanding. Right now, it seems like you and a few others against Misplaced Pages. I think you should read WP:POINT before you continue trying to promote a clearly disruptive and inappropriate belief. Our policies are not for you to suddenly rewrite to add what clearly is not there in order to promote such abuse. Ottava Rima (talk) 21:10, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

I said you were wiki-lawering, not that you were a wikilawyer. Comment on edits and not the editor. That's the baseline here. You don't seem to get that. And it's not a new concept....it's been here awhile. The rest of your assertions are inaccurate enough to not need any comment. I will say that accusing someone of wp:point because you disagree with them is a little disingenuous. RxS (talk) 21:37, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Civility does not need to differentiate between personal or actions. Your misunderstanding of the two is telling. This is also telling. I think our lax standards at the time is possibly how you attained Adminship while having a destructive understanding of NPA that goes far beyond what it states. The fact that you would try to claim that someone who exposes you for adding things to NPA which clearly aren't there as a "wikilawyer" is rather disturbing and telling. I suggest you put yourself up for re-election if you honestly believe you are correct. The swift amount of opposes and your quick failure will be enough justice. Ottava Rima (talk) 21:48, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

From WP:NPA Comment on content, not on the contributor. Second sentence. You can (although you probably shouldn't in most cases) call someone's edits foolish, you certainly cannot call someone a fool. So I see no evidence that I have a "destructive understanding of NPA". Anyway, I don't have time for this and am unimpressed with your argument by abuse style. Take your last word and we'll be done here. I don't see any consensus forming against the block in question. RxS (talk) 23:00, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

I'll assume good faith and think that you aren't being purposefully disruptive when you blatantly try to claim a response about an action is not commenting on the action. However, that does not excuse you from having a very dangerous misunderstanding of such a thing. There is no legitimate way for you to hold such a view, and if you continue to hold it and if you dare to bother to force that view onto others via block, I am sure you will find yourself desysopped fast. You are not upholding our views in the letter or the spirit, and your understanding shows either a complete misunderstanding of both grammar and how things operate, or a purposeful misunderstanding to push something you have no right to push. Either way, there is a major problem and you need to stop immediately. And your claim that there is no consensus against the block is laughably absurd. Ottava Rima (talk) 03:15, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

comment - huh? 'wikilawyering' is uncivil, but "you fool" is a "characterization of actions"? i'm missing something here.
personally, i think the snide faux-civil sarcasm and baiting that seem to be the rule for many regular editors here is much more of a problem than either of those two comments, but i digress ... untwirl(talk) 21:24, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

WP:CIVIL is not WP:NPA. Why would you think that one is the other? They clearly are on two different pages, so it would be hard to confuse the two. Ottava Rima (talk) 21:29, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

from the civility page: "Incivility consists of personal attacks, rudeness, and aggressive behaviours that disrupt the project and lead to unproductive stress and conflict." a personal attack is automatically uncivil. is it your contention that giano's remark was neither uncivil nor a personal attack? or are you just quibbling over the semantics? this section should probably be collapsed due to drama. untwirl(talk) 22:12, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Untwirl - Please read - Calling someone a "Wikilawyer" is -rude- not an attack. Personal attacks are attacks on someone's sex, race, gender, religious point of view, etc. They are attacks on things that have nothing to do with Misplaced Pages and -only- on things that have nothing to do with Misplaced Pages. Any characterization of any behavior on Misplaced Pages is not a personal attack and can never be construed as one. That is very clear from the page. Ottava Rima (talk) 03:15, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Did you accidentally miss the part about someone's education, Ottava Rima? 06:29, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Is that gender? Sexuality? Ethnicity? Things you can't change and have nothing to do with Misplaced Pages? No. His post was directly about Misplaced Pages. Ottava Rima (talk) 14:17, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Making unwarranted comments about someone else's personal education or (social) life is not directly about Misplaced Pages, and it certainly does not comply with acceptable standards of decorum on-site - including the spirit of civility and NPA. What was actually said: "get a life, get an education and write a page yourself - you fool!" While it's easy to concentrate on the issue that's most obscure ("fool"), evading the issues with the rest of the comment (and indeed, the comment as a whole, in its context) does not make it any more appropriate or justifiable. Ncmvocalist (talk) 16:58, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

• I disagree with the very belated block, but I do think something should be done in addition to a strong warning. This is not the first time Giano has made such comments at FAR, and we should not handle these incidents in the same way every time. I would not be averse to a temporary or even indefinite topic ban from FAR should he make another personal attack / uncivil warning in FARs or related discussions. Dabomb87 (talk) 00:23, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
• I support a block for violation of WP:NPA, and a duration of 72 hours. I do not recall any particular personal interactions on my part with the blocked or blocking editors. Giano's comments were clearly a personal attack. Per the above thread, previous blocks have been for about 24 hours by the time they were lifted, so a 3 day block would be the appropriate degree of escalation. IEdison (talk) 00:36, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

I would suggest you reread NPA as it clearly states that they are not. Ottava Rima (talk) 03:15, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

I would suggest you take your own advice. Ncmvocalist (talk) 06:29, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

"...you fool..." would be a violation of WP:NPA, as you're referring to a personal trait as in "you are a fool." "...your foolish edits..." could be a violation of WP:CIVIL, depending on circumstances, even though they refer to edits, not the editor. What's the issue? (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 12:00, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

"Fool" is an action trait. Is sexuality an action trait? No. Is race? No. Please. Do you not understand that there are descriptives that deal with physical attributes and descriptives that deal with action based ones? This is basic English linguistics. "Fool", "Troll", etc, are all acceptable. Otherwise, ArbCom would be blocked for determining that certain people are "disruptive users". The issue here are people who want to expand NPA to justify really horrible blocks. The community doesn't accept it. Ottava Rima (talk) 13:46, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

I am on neither "side" when it comes to Giano. I write for a living, so please, I took enough English to know a noun from an adjective from an adverb. "You are an X" (shortened to "You X") is and always and will always be a descriptor of "you". Basic 3rd grade grammar. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 14:08, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

There is no rule saying that people cannot use nouns when describing someone. There is no difference between saying "you are foolish" and "you are a fool". NPA is clear - you don't bring in things that don't apply to actions on Misplaced Pages - race, gender, sexuality, etc. Those are -personal-. Your behavior on Misplaced Pages is not -personal-. It is -public-. You can act snide by claiming that the above is "basic 3rd grade grammar", but you clearly don't understand these aspects of the English language, so you look really, really bad with your snideness. You have been proven wrong and arrogant, which seems to happen a lot with those trying to push an interpretation of NPA that isn't even close to reality. Ottava Rima (talk) 14:17, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

"Proven wrong and arrogant"? Neither has happened based on the discussion throughout this topic, but thanks for your own WP:NPA's. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 09:13, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

"Disruptive user" describes behavior. "Fool" is character assassination. →Baseball Bugs carrots 09:21, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Contrast

I really wanted to stay out of this, in the hope that sense (or my understanding, which may be biased, of it) would prevail... However I will direct readers attention to Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/User:William M. Connolley/For me/Misc arbcomm-y stuff, which has been closed as "no consensus". On the page User:William M. Connolley/For me/Misc arbcomm-y stuff two contributors (ArbCom members also, but contributors also) are termed "foolish", another one "rubbish", and further on one or more are called "cowards". The page itself provides little more than a summisation of the degrees of personal shortcomings of members of the arbitration committee. The difference is, that the page is not going to be removed unless by the authors wishes, and the author is suffering no penalty for calling people foolish, rubbish, cowards, and being generally unpleasant toward several individuals. I would note that while I argued for the page to be deleted (and was one of the very few to note the relevant policies) I see no reason for WMC to be sanctioned. Under that basis I cannot see why Giano is being sanctioned - for conduct in one instance that is less virulent than WMC.
I know, I am a "Friend of Giano" - but I am a friend of fairhandedness even more so. I think Giano has been blocked for far to long for one comment and, in reference to the accusation that he has been blocked many times, I would note the extensive history of unblocks in his log as evidence that this is a matter in which the community is not in agreement. LessHeard vanU (talk) 13:11, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

LessHeard - it seems less that people actually believe NPA means what they claim and more of that they don't care that they are violating WP:POINT by promoting such a belief. It seems we will be plagued by these individuals until we create a desysop process and remove them. People should be more vigorous to ensure such individuals are never given power, as they clearly don't have any respect for either the spirit or letter of our policies, which allows for such hypocrisy to exist. Ottava Rima (talk) 13:48, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Seems sense is in short supply these days, LHvU. Blocking someone for a week for calling someone a fool doesn't make much sense at all, but apparently sense doesn't come into the equation when Giano is the blockee. Tex (talk) 13:53, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

LessHeard vanU, I agree that these sorts of comments should not exist in userspace or elsewhere, but yours is a sort of WP:WAX-y argument. If disruption does takes place on one page, that is not a reason to tolerate it on other pages or from other editors. (There may be good reasons, however, to allow somewhat more latitude for criticism of officials. You'll never hear me complain about the reams of abuse I get on a routine basis for taking administrative actions.)

I believe Giano's conduct at issue is more virulently disruptive, though, than that of William M. Connolley. (Whether one should call it a violation of WP:NPA or WP:CIVIL or WP:BATTLE or whatever is pure wikilawyering.) Look at the context of the edit, . One person opens a (on the face of it, entirely reasonable) featured article review, and out of the blue, with no provocation, comes Giano with a slur that has no relevance at all to the subject matter. It is difficult to conceive of a conduct that is more disruptive to the culture of calm, rational, collegial discussion that we all agree to uphold. As long as I am an administrator in this project, I will seek to prevent such disruption, whether by Giano or anyone else, by whatever means are necessary - warnings, blocks or other sanctions - whenever such conduct is brought to my attention (provided, of course, that there is no community consensus to the contrary).

In this case, I think that discussions about the length of the block are beside the point, because blocks are not punitive – I will lift a block of any length as soon as the blocked user credibly states that the conduct for which he was blocked will not reoccur.  Sandstein  14:31, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

It seems to me that it is the excessive length of your blocks that is more disputed than anything else. Here about your (claimed to be excessive) one week block of Giano and also your one month block of CoM that was/should have been a week (according to arbcom restrictions) and on this page yesterday were you called for a indefinite block on another user here when another admin then gave a week. Off2riorob (talk) 14:42, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Sandstein, you undermine any sympathy that you may receive that your block interpretation was simply a mistake by trying to dodge the issue by putting forth an -AfD- rationale. AfD and blocks go off very different arguments. Articles are not equal, but individuals' behavior should be. As such, to have different standards would be very problematic. Furthermore, as Lessheard points out, this flawed interpretation of NPA only exists as a way to punish certain individuals that are not liked. This only verifies the problem with administrators abusive our policy to make such vicious blocks. Now, your block was clearly punitive and was not the first time you've made such blocks. It seems that instead of trying to rationalize and pretend nothing happen, you should be apologizing to this community. Otherwise, it would seem that you cannot be trusted to keep the tools. You can start by apologizing to LessHeard about your use of an attack against AfD rationales as if it mattered here. Ottava Rima (talk) 15:02, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

And adding to that, on a personal note, Sandstein stated above that I should be blocked for advising discussion rather than more aggressive responses. This is beyond foolish - which I sincerely hope no one is actually block-happy enough to block me for, but I'm not going to be badgered or bullied into silence about my views on what constitutes foolish behaviors. KillerChihuahuaAdvice 15:13, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

No, I do not object to you advising discussion, or even advocating your views. I have argued that you should be blocked for editwarring to restore a personal attack, and in fact I intend to block you should you do this again. Neither vested contributors nor administrators are exempt from our conduct policies.  Sandstein  15:25, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

You should know better than to promote the removal of a consensus based point. You could ask for it to be struck, but to remove another person's comments when they have been involved with such FARs for a long time is unacceptable. You should know better. You probably do know better, which is why your threat is inexcusable. Ottava Rima (talk) 15:31, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Funny, KillerChihuahua did the exact same thing. Why does he remove a (perceived but non existant) personal attack from an opponent, but restores a true personal attack from a friend against that opponent? That is true hypocrisy, and not becoming of an admin. See also his comment below: "You are not considering that removing another person's comments is often considered a blockable offense; ": coming from someone who did exactly that in the same discussion, it is beyond the pale. Fram (talk) 18:38, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

I mentioned that myself, to contrast how I handled it vs. how Sandstein handled it: he edit Sandstein linked has the edit summary of "please discuss this with G." This is advising discussion, rather than removing another's comment. It is, as Ottava Rima had pointed out, restoring a comment which was arguably improperly removed. On that same page, I had removed a comment I thought was a personal attack; another editor disagreed and restored it. Sandstein did not block them. Nor did I, nor do I think a block would have been appropriate. His personal view is that the content in Giano's post is a personal attack. He is entitled to his option. He is not entitled to go running roughshod over everyone enforcing his personal opinion about what is and is not rude. So I suggested discussion on the post he thought was inappropriate, he blocked and suggested I be blocked when I restored the post; but I did not demur at all when the post I objected to was restored, but posted a comment regarding it. I have not been hypocritical at all; indeed, I've done precisely as I advised. Sandstein, however, never offered to block the editor who replaced the post I objected to, as his double standard is intact. KillerChihuahuaAdvice 20:35, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

re Sandstein: the edit you linked has the edit summary of "please discuss this with G.)" This is advising discussion, rather than removing another's comment. It is, as OR points out, restoring a comment which was arguably improperly removed. I removed a comment I thought was a personal attack; another editor disagreed and restored it. You did not block them. Nor did I, nor do I think a block would have been appropriate. Your personal view is that the content in Giano's post is a personal attack. You are entitled to your option. You are not entitled to go running roughshod over everyone enforcing your personal opinion about what is and is not rude. Blocking for personal attacks is clear: the attack must be "egregious" - like "You are a fucking whore and you shit out of your mouth every time you talk. If you try to edit this page again I will find you and fuck you over!". That is probably a comment people would not strongly object to blocking for. You are not considering that removing another person's comments is often considered a blockable offense; I did not block the person who removed the content,but advised they discuss it with him. so we have two comments which some find NPA violations and some do not. I submit to you that I dont' consider the person who restored the personal attack against me to have been edit warring, as there is room for disagreement on what constitutes a personal attack; that I blocked no one and threatened to block no one; and that you've done precisely the opposite. If you really want to see some drame, start blocking admins who restore comments and advise discussion - which is what you are threatening to do. KillerChihuahuaAdvice 15:53, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

If anything, Sandstein has proven himself as disruptive. The Point violation of abusing blocking against the rules is egregious. His then labeling others as wikilawyering for arguing against it is dangerous. If anyone wants to claim that Sandstein is actually a decent admin, then I would suggest a block on Sandstein based on his account being compromised, because his actions as of late are 100% opposite and highly disruptive. KC - I would recommend you filing an RFC/U against Sandstein for the above comments, as they are not such things any admin should say, especially when that admin is making blocks that are completely unacceptable by our standards. There was a saying that Wikianarchists should be chased out for the sake of Misplaced Pages. As such, why is Sandstein still here? Ottava Rima (talk) 15:19, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

I really wanted to stay out of this but you didn't. If I were to show up on an arbs talk page and call them a fool I'd expect to be blocked. As part of an analysis of an arbcomm case discretely hidden is another matter. Sandsteins block was good William M. Connolley (talk) 11:50, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Conclusion; administrator review forthcoming

I can not currently ascertain a clear consensus about my block at issue, with many supporting it, many opposing it and many supporting it in principle but opposing its length. But probably I am too involved in this discussion to evaluate it clearly. In view of this, I do not object to any previously uninvolved administrator reducing the block to whatever length they think consensus here (if any consensus is to be found) deems appropriate, including time served.

On another note, I am concerned that many here, including editors that I respect, have expressed the view that they find my approach to others in general to be too harsh, authoritative, or otherwise objectionable. If that is so, I am interested to learn how I could bring my admin practice more into line with community expectations. To that end, I will open a Misplaced Pages:Administrator review thread about me and advertise it here.  Sandstein  15:57, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

I guess I'll be the neutral admin: there's definitely no consensus here, but the block is problematic enough to reduce to "time served" IMO. I think it's very wise on your part to open the review, since having just read through this long thread, it occurs to me that there wasn't a lot of actual communication going on. Hopefully you'll get clearer input while not "under fire". --SB_Johnny |  16:19, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for your evaluation. All are now invited to provide advice at Misplaced Pages:Administrator review/Sandstein.  Sandstein  16:41, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Vandalism continues on Pokémon manga articles

For background, see Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Anime and manga#Removal of demographic on Pokémon: The Electric Tale of Pikachu, Misplaced Pages:Content noticeboard#User:TheFarix, and Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Mathemagician57721/Archive. Editor as returned to using Dynamic IPs from AT&T in Springfield, Missouri claiming that the sourced information that he/she had previously called synthisis are now a personal attacks against some obscure forum users. —Farix (t | c) 22:59, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

I'd hardly call the two largest Pokémon forums on the internet "obscure". --70.245.189.21 (talk) 23:02, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

"obscure forum users" does not seem to mean "users" on "obscure forums" but instead seems to mean "obscure users" who are on "forums". Could be wrong, English is an iffy language.- Sinneed 23:06, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm saying that the both the forum and its users are obscure. However it is absurd to claim that stating that a manga (comic) is targeted towards children (referred to as Kodomo) is some sort of personal attack. This is not the first time this editor has vandalized Pokémon manga articles. He/she has removed the exact same information from both this article and Pokémon: The Electric Tale of Pikachu, which is currently semi-protected do to the vandalism. —Farix (t | c) 23:21, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

This IP has been at this for awhile and has been blocked some half dozen times, at the last, under different IPs. He is also now vandalizing Church of Scientology and he has already jumped to a new IP, so blocking of User:70.245.189.21 may only be marginally helpful at this point. Requested RPP on the target article, again, as it seems to be the only way to deal with this particularly persistent vandal who is determined to deny reality. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 23:27, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

I went ahead and semi-protected the article for now. Beeblebrox (talk) 23:40, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Fairx, so far you've posted on the content board, the NOR board, and you've posted here. Please be aware that could be considered forum shopping. I responded to you over at the NOR board, and for ease of reading, I'll summarize here.

The IP is removing the statement that the movie is a Kodomo. There's no source that says this, so the IP is correct. Any claim has to be backed up by a source. The "kodomo" claim isn't. (I'm an anime geek, and I'm familiar with that term, and I agree it's pretty obvious to anyone that watches the movie - BUT - I AM NOT a realiable source, so I can't put in what I know. :) )_{Naluboutes, Naluboutes}Aeria gloris, Aeria gloris 14:02, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Resolved

Nja 16:23, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Resolved – Nothing to apologize for or retract. Please deal with the substance of the issue raised above. Jclemens (talk) 18:16, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Resolved – Article semi-protected for a couple of weeks — Huntster (t @ c) 03:40, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

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