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Archives

Early undated discussion (probably before 2004-03-23) 2004 2005 Jan-Apr 2006 May 2006 May-June 2006 June-August 2006 August-October 2006 October 2006-January 2007 January 2007-March 2007 March 2007–November 2007 December 2007–May 2008 June 2008–December 2008 January 2009-March 2009

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was no consensus Aervanath (talk) 17:28, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Expulsion of Germans after World War II → Flight and expulsion of Germans —

• Add "Flight": Although those who fled were expelled "in absentia" or upon returning, this was not foreseeable for the refugees, thus the flight/evacuations before the start of the actual expulsions which is covered in the article should be mentioned in the title as well. To seperately include "evacuation" in the title seems redundant as evacuation was no more than an (badly) organized flight which often enough turned into a spontaneous one.
• Remove WWII qualification: (1) "after WWII" is misleading, flight as well as actual expulsion started already during the war. (2) The WWII-related flight and expulsion was the only major flight and expulsion of Germans ever. Though there were other events when Germans fled or were expelled, the late and post-WWII events are those usually associated with the terms. Per Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (precision)'s rationale, we should have a title precise enough to identify the topic, but avoid unnecessary qualifications. Per Misplaced Pages:Dab#Is there a primary topic? other events could be dab-ed above the lead. — Skäpperöd (talk) 15:04, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Misplaced Pages's naming conventions.

• Support (nominator) Skäpperöd (talk) 15:06, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
• Oppose. I gave it some thought today, but as I mentioned in the discussion above, I not convinced a rename is necessary. In respect of the addition of the word "flight", populations all over the world fled from advancing armies during WWII - what is notable here about the flight of the Germans is that it was rendered permanent by the later expulsions - the focus of this article. Adding words such as flight or evacuation is unnecessary. As for the reference to WWII, I think the words "after World War II" are necessary and don't represent "over precision". The proposed title is way too ambiguous - it's not enough to say that the subject of the article represents the only major population transfers of Germans, because it isn't even clear from the proposed title that it deals with population transfers. This is actually the sort of ambiguity that WP:PRECISION suggests we avoid. Since this is not a DAB problem, WP:PRIMARYUSAGE isn't really relevant, nor are hatnotes the solution.--Skeezix1000 (talk) 21:05, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
• Weak oppose. I don't have strong feelings on this issue. At the moment, like Skeezix1000 I don't see a need for a move and I also think that the qualifier "after WWII" is useful though not 100% accurate. If there's some strong arguments I'm perfectly willing to change my mind.radek (talk) 21:36, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
• Support proposition 1 to add 'flight'; it is well documented that a tide of refugees preceded the Soviet advance westwards in 1944 and 1945, motivated by fear, of communism and also of reprisals. This amounts to flight, not expulsion or ethnic cleansing as was seen, for example, in Yugoslavia in the 1990s. Let's be clear: there were many people who definitely fled, and expressed no desire to return; an 'expulsion' is not simply 'being denied the right to return to an area from which you have fled'. An expulsion is where either a) people bang on your door in the morning telling you that you'd better be on the road by midday or else; or b) populations get forcibly transferred by some kind of (quasi-)legal procedure. Undoubtedly there were also expulsions after the war, but this article does not solely describe an 'expulsion' when so many left in advance of those they feared (for whatever reason). Cautious oppose to proposition 2 to delete totally a time frame - I think the article needs a time reference in its title. I agree that 'after World War II' is factually incorrect, but I think some form of wording should replace it. Perhaps "Flight and expulsion of Germans 1944-50" would do, as that seems to be the period in question? AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 23:36, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Would not object to qualify with a date. Skäpperöd (talk) 06:10, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

• Oppose - The self-imposed evacuations are already covered by Flight and evacuation of German civilians during the end of World War II, and to a lesser extent German exodus from Eastern Europe and Flight and expulsion of Germans from Poland during and after World War II. This article should deal solely with the forced expulsions. The date qualifier is quite necessary; the proposed title is far too ambiguous. Parsecboy (talk) 01:56, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Discussion

Any additional comments:

The article has been moved several times. Wouldn't a summary of such moves be useful? Xx236 (talk) 15:06, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Various German Civilian “Relocation” Statistics from Eastern Europe in Mid & Latter 1940s

High side figures: 12 to 16 million German civilians affected

Regarding Poland, German civilians were expelled by Soviet/Polish Communist authorities from the area within the 1937 borders of Germany east of the Oder-Neisse Line, with the exception of northern East Prussia, which was subject only to repopulation by Soviet citizens as the original German population was expelled. Also regarding Poland, all ethnic Germans living within the Polish 1937 boundaries in the places redefined by the Nazis as the Wartheland; Westpreussen; Sued-Ostpreussen; Kreis Suwalki (Sudauen); & Bezirk Bialystok were subject to expulsion, regardless of whether the ethnic German civilians had lived in those areas in 1937, or had been transferred in by the Nazis after September, 1939.

Regarding events in Poland, some sources claim 2 million ethnic German Civilian deaths, including deaths during the “run away” time (in areas that were (1) within 1937 German boundaries, and (2) in areas within 1937 Polish boundaries); deaths directly caused by enemy action; and, deaths during forced expulsions. (Note: the “run away time” is loosely defined as German civilians fleeing the approaching Soviet Army during the war.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.14.240.177 (talk) 21:40, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Yep, let's do our best to make Misplaced Pages the home page of the lunatic fringe who a) don't even have the decency to sign up b) don't bring any sources c) don't have the slightest interest in atrocities committed by, under or during the 3rd Reich d) probably have a personal Nazi memorabilia museum/drawer at home. AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 21:48, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Yes, there is much vandalism at times, but most is caught within a short time by the editors. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.14.240.177 (talk) 22:52, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

"According to Robert Trana, some two million Germans died in the process of Soviet occupation, Polish occupation, and forced deportation--most in the Western territories--of violence, hunger and disease. Robert Trana, 'Wysiedlenia Niemcow a Polski--refleksje na marginesie literatury najnowszej,' in Elzbiety Traba and Roberta Traba, eds., TEMATY POLSKO-NIEMIECKIE (Olsztyn: Wspolnota Kulturowa, 1997), pp. 28-29." Source: Fires of Hatred: Ethnic Cleansing in Twentieth Century Europe, by Norman M. Naimark. Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press, 2001, in n.111 on Page 228. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.14.240.177 (talk) 03:05, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

The Allied Crimes against the Germans

Peter... the problem is that the Germans started this terrible war and they were the perpetrators not the victims. Ordinary Germans at the time were the perpetrators of the Holocaust. They were Hitler's willing executioners and had judged that the mass annihilation of Jews and mass murder of Poles was right. German civilian suffering at the end of the war was huge but blaming the victims for their suffering as you do above (Poles, Czechs ..) is not going to win you much sympathy, sorry...--Jacurek (talk) 06:29, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

one more thing, your comment contains many OBVIOUS historical inaccuracies. I don't want to go into details, maybe somebody else will.--Jacurek (talk) 06:40, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

re "Ordinary Germans at the time were the perpetrators of the Holocaust. They were Hitler's willing executioners ..." :This is an expansive statement which doesn't present much of a context, but implies a link to Goldhagen's book, "Hitler's Willing Executioners". The Wilipedia article on "Hitler's Willing Executioners" has a section titled, "Critical Reception of Work":

http://en.wikipedia.org/Hitler's_Willing_Executioners ANNRC (talk) 22:34, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

The thing is, these kinds of rants, reposted from Facebook (!!!) do not belong on the talk page anymore than they do in the article. Misplaced Pages is not a version of free bloging software. And that's even ignoring the extremist nature of these posts. This should be just deleted.radek (talk) 07:23, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

@Brenton: It is not really helpful to copypaste blogs / oppinions of someone. WP:NOTAFORUM. It would be much more helpful if you precisely adressed the issues which in your view are missing / ought to be included into the article, and reasonably back that up per WP:V. How exactly do you want to expand/alter which sections/paragraphs? Sidenote: It was not a "German holocaust". The term holocaust should only be applied to the industrialized extermination of the European Jews, which has no cognate whatsoever in history. Skäpperöd (talk) 07:55, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

@Jacurek: (now a little violating WP:NOTAFORUM myself...) You fully apply the principle of collective guilt. "The Germans" were perpetrators, "the Poles" were victims. Be aware that this is a strong personal view of yours and just imagine what would happen if you applied this on issues other than the expulsion of Germans. I am glad that I do not live in a country where the wrongdoings of a clanmember of mine enable the member of another clan to cut off my hands. And I think the law system you are subject to also follows the principle of individual guilt, qualified with "innocent until proven guilty", and that someone even if found guilty of one crime is not civilly dead meaning everyone is free to commit whatever crime they want on them. You would do good stepping back and thinking of the merits of this approach, which is common law and moral standard in all the "first" world. Skäpperöd (talk) 07:55, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

Skäpperöd... this is not only my view and no, I do not apply a principle of collective guilt and I acknowledge that the German civilians suffered terribly after the war. They suffered however ONLY because of the insane policies of their nuts Nazi leaders THEY ELECTED and the war Germany started. Now....Let me ask you a question... What would have happen to the Poles or to the rest of the barely surviving Jews if Hitler have won the war?? I'm sure I would not be able to talk to you right now because I would not exist. Well...Hitler lost and as a result the German population suffered, but I and you, assuming you are German, are able to talk to each other.....and this is the difference.--Jacurek (talk) 15:47, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

• Consequence of the war Germany started: Absolutely correct. But not the necessary or only possible one.
• "ONLY because of the insane policies of their nuts Nazi leaders": This however is very speculative. The motor of the expulsions were Stalin and his (international) crew. As outlined in the article, punishment for Nazi crimes were one argument, though not really the argument of those who planned the expulsions, but rather of some of those who pursued them. When the truncation of Germany and the expulsions were planned however, rarely anyone knew what the Nazis really did in Central and Eastern Europe. But Stalin and Churchill knew what they wanted, and did not hesitate.
• "insane policies of their nuts Nazi leaders THEY ELECTED": The Nazis did not get 100% of the votes, and the Nazis were elected eleven years earlier when only very few could foresee what they were up to. I cannot go into detail here regarding the political, economic and social situation in Weimar Germany that led to the Nazi victory. But the majority of the votes the Nazis got not for their extermination plans, which took shape only later.
• "What would have happen to the Poles or to the rest of the barely surviving Jews if Hitler have won the war?" This is already the right question, but the wrong implementation. Yes, the Nazis wanted to exterminate the Poles and the Jews. Yes, that was evil. No, that does not mean that if the Nazis judge others solely based on racial criteria, that we do so too in respect to the Germans.

You said you don't apply the collective guilt principle, but in the same post you did again. "They" - the Germans. We are able to talk to each other because those who committed murder during and after the war, based solely on ethnic reasons, spared our (grand-)parents. This should prevent us from judging others based on their ethnicity, don't you think? Skäpperöd (talk) 17:30, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

I used the term "they the Germans" to underline the "fact" and not to blame the whole Germans for it. I partly agree with you that there was more to it and there was another "evil idiot" in the East, Stalin, but facts are as they are. Germany started the war, they were the initiators of this conflict which led to the enormous suffering and destruction unseen in Europe until then. Now...who is there to blame for the eventual German suffering after the war, in most cases of innocent civilians, Wolf kids, raped woman and helplessness? "Three stooges" in Yalta, Teheran and Potsdam and their idiotic decisions to please Stalin? The Soviet Army? Poles and Czechs? Jews? ... or perhaps the Germans themselves? The German suffering after the war is indisputable but blaming the Poles as Peter did or even better, Polish Jews, who are also Poles, is simply disgusting...--Jacurek (talk) 21:58, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

First of all let me assure you that we are not that far away in our views. If you'd replace "the Germans" and "the Poles" with "Germany" and "Poland", we would not have a big argument. Of course (Nazi) "Germany" and "Poland" are virtual bodies, maintained and able to act only via physical Germans and Poles, but not the Germans and the Poles. If Poland had tried/detained/expelled only those Germans who had actually ordered/supervised/committed atrocities, even if broadly defined and if executed with a "fair" amount of "collateral damage", the retrospect debate would be much different. But the expulsions/murders/atrocities were to a large degree indifferent to individual guilt and based on ethnicity only. They were not even limited to members of NS-organizations, and even those were not all guilty/supportive/aware of the Nazi crimes. In fact, the actual perpetrators were for the most part absent, like most adult males, when the flight and expulsion took place.

Both Polish governments, the exiled and the Communist ones, wanted German territory and they wanted the new Poland to be ethnically cleansed of Germans. The Polish vote in 1946 explicitly asked the Oder-Neisse question, and although this vote was held under somewhat dubious circumstances and the presented outcome cannot be taken for granted, it is undisputed that a significant proportion of the Polish populace supported the westward expansion and the ethnic cleansing evidently tied to it. It is also undisputed that it was not just Gomulka who cleansed, just like it was not only Hitler who engaged in mass murder and ethnic cleansing before, but that the orders of Gomulka and Co were willingly executed by other Poles, and that there were Poles who in this respect did not just do their "duty", but a lot more to Germans they encountered or detained in their camps and cellars. This is the undeniable Polish responsibility. But this does not mean that the Poles were responsible and/or guilty. It means that distinct Poles were perpetrators in this respect, and it does not mean that these Poles could not have been victims in another respect. In fact, all Poles were at least potentially victims of Nazi crimes, even those who were dubbed "racial Germans" by the respective SS bureaus, and many were not only potential but actual victims in this respect. That however does not make them victims in every respect.

Now what has all this to do with the article. I feel many editors dropped in here motivated by a desire to settle national scores, i.e. compare/equal one set of crimes with another and assign some sorts of ethnic guilt. This is not acceptable.

• We must present data and not own conclusions, phrase everything carefully without weaseling and without an underlying personal interpretation.
• We must carefully avoid generalization, especially by wordings such as "the Germans" and "the Poles" in cases where not all Germans or all Poles or whatever nationals were involved. Instead we have to properly attribute who said and did what exactly to whom exactly.
• We must show the ties the expulsions have with the preceding war including the Nazi crimes, but we must limit this to where these ties actually are. The place for the preceding Nazi crimes is the "punishment" section, which should focus on elaborating on the ties, i.e. published ties and not felt ties. WWII events and Nazi crimes have numerous own articles and should be mentioned and linked instead of getting boosted to make a point; expellee=German=Nazi=guilty=civilly dead is a prime example for a synthesis.

Skäpperöd (talk) 09:35, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Such comparisions as abover are not really appropriate as huge differences are in two situations which need to be pointed out

• -German removal was all there was to the action/The removal of Poles and Jews was part of far wider program of extermination which the Germans were not target of
• -The Poles and Jews were targetted as creatures on lower scale to be exterminated by German state with appropriate legislation included/the Germans were to be moved to new German homeland in order to prevent violence.
• -the German state during the war was based on ideology of racial genocide seeking to mass murder others as motive for its existance, no possibility of co-existance with Poles or Jews was possible or relations with Polish state/countries removing Germans had nothing against German state’s existance is some shape, and pursued relations either with West Germany or East Germany
• -the exact stated reason for removing the Germans was among others the persistant nationalist orientation of the Germans in eastern territories, in part due to frontier nature of them. The area politically speaking has always been the primary nationalist region, dating back even to German Empire. They are many factors in this, too detailed to describe, but for example nationalist organizations were awarded money and membership was finanacially rewarded by German state in the region. The removal was seen as defence against German agression. On the other hand removing of Poles and Jews was quite openly justified by racist goals of German state during the war and quite openly described by German officials as agressive(which was in line with Nazi ideology of constant warfare)
• -comparing Gomulka to Hitler ? That’s really uncalled for. You have a ideologist activist for workers who became authoritiarian ruler and used state police against dissent to man who openly called for world war and exterminated tens of milions of people in the name of racial genocide while destroying Central Europe and creating a totalitarian state.
• -the territorial aspect is of course yet another matter-Germans were removed from border regions that were Germanised in the course of centuries from the native inhabitants. Poles were being removed from core Polish areas such as Poznań where the first Polish state was established, or even areas with no previous German presence such as Zamojszczyzna. Again this shows that the extent and scope of German actions was different.
• -The expulsion and extermination of Poles and Jews had background in expansionism of former German Empire’s attempts to win control over Central Europe(see Polish Border Strip Plan), of course Nazis greatly changed the former plans changing their scope and methods/the removal of Germans had background in the populations seeking the removal being subject to German made mass murder and racist policists and hoping to end this ordeal or any possibility of its return
• -finally legal matters-German law in Third Reich included such legal conditions as higher status of househeld animals then Poles and Jews, I don’t think this was common in the international or any law at the time or now and things like injecting children of subhumans with poison don’t have any legal basis likewise putting people in gas chambers/The re-settlement of Germans to Germany had basis in already existing events such as population exchange of Greece and Turkey for example
• -as to resistance, sadly the available research shows that real resistance was a very tiny majority, we have to remember that around 51% of Germans voted for NSDAP and their political allies DNVP in elections. Even the most widespread resistance symbolised by Stauffenberg was influenced by fascism and nationalist ideas(for example while Stauffenberg did not want to exterminate Poles, he was quite in agreement that they are to be enslaved). True democratic resistance while it existed was very rare. Additionally the areas from which Germans were resettled were as mentioned before the centre of German nationalism.

As to support for extermination-it was very high above 30% after the war according to available Allied data, needless to say we can expect it to be higher in the effect nationalist regions just as the votes for Nazis were higher.

• To sum up-even a brief comparision between treatment of non-Germans by Nazi Germany and post-war treatment of Germans shows that the two are light years away and can’t be considered similiar. Where German state during Second World War engaged in industrial genocide aiming at extermination of whole nations, based on its core ideology of the time, the post-war resettlement of Germans was a population transfer based on previous similiar processes that were legal by current international law. One would need to really cut off several aspects of German made situation regarding Non-Germans.

However I might mention that the intentional or unintentional attempts to compare the two have actually been noted by historic community. Of interest is the remark that such process sometimes goes into trying to show everybody during WW2 as guilty in the same way, and by doing so erases all guilt in the line of “If everybody is guilty, then nobody is guilty at all”. Perhaps this would be good to add in post war events, of course referenced by scholary works which observe and study the issue. --Molobo (talk) 13:10, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

===================================================================

Comment to Peter: I served in the US Army in West Germany (1962-64, Gelnhausen). ALSO NOTE: Peter's paragraphs subsequently removed by an editor as being a quasi-forum.

1. I don't believe the bombing of civilians during war time is legally a war crime. 2. US President Roosevelt, Brit PM Churchill & Sov Premier Stalin approved what eventually became (via the Potsdam Agreement)an open-ended population transfer of all ethnic Germans from East of the Oder-Neisse Line. Roosevelt was dead and Churchill was no longer PM by the time of the finalization of the Potsdam Agreement. Per the Potsdam Agreement, theoretically all ethnic Germans were to be relocated to the West of the Potsdam Agreement determined Oder-Neisse Line (Stettin notwithstanding). The approved population transfers also covered all ethnic Germans to be transferred to Occupation Germany from Czechoslovakia and Hungary. 30 years later the Helsinki Accords (1975) made such ethnic cleansing against Human Rights, although it wasn't made retroactive to 1945. 3. The Nazis were well on their way to destroying Polish culture (which was one of their ultimate goals). Ca. 5.5 million Polish civilians were killed by the Nazis during the war (that figure includes 3 million Polish Jews). All of 1937 boundary Poland was intended to be ethnically cleansed (i.e., of all ethnic Poles and Jews) by the Nazis. 4. The policy in the US Occupation Zone of Germany between 1945 & 1947 had the effect of starving to death hundreds of thousands of Germans. The US State Department would not even let the Vatican send in supplies to starving German infants in the US Zone. 5. Most of West Prussia was assigned to Poland in 1919 following World War 1. ANNRC (talk) 10:18, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

Dear ANNRC - the article by Professor Alfred de Zayas "Forced Population Transfer" in the Oxford Encyclopedia of Public International Law (online since September 2008) explains why the expulsions were incompatible with international law in 1945. De Zayas analysed this issue at length in his seminal article "International Law and Mass Population Transfers" (Harvard International Law Journal, Vol. 16, 1975) and in his book "Nemesis at Potsdam" (1-3 editions Routledge, 4-5 edition University of Nebraska Press, 6th edition Picton Press, Rockland, Maine ISBN-0-89725-360-4). The bottom line is that the Allies were not above international law, but had to abide themselves by it. The Allies broke general principles of law and numerous articles of the Hague Regulations on Land Warfare (notably articles 42-56) when they displaced the German civilian population from the areas where their ancestors had lived for 7 centuries. It is interesting to note that there was no "causal nexus" between Nazi crimes and the expulsion of the German civilian populations. The Nazis committed plenty of crimes in occupied France, Belgium, the Netherlands, but the French, Belgians and Dutch did not expell the Germans of Cologne and Düsseldorf to the East, whereas the Poles and Czechs did expel the Germans of East Prussia, Pomerania, Silesia, East Brandenburg, Sudetenland etc. to the West. This "forced migration" affected 15 million human beings, two million of whom perished (Statistisches Bundesamt, Wiesbaden, 1958, "Die Deutschen Vertreibungsverluse"; Gerhard Reichling, "Deutsche Vertriebenen in Zahlen", 1985). Churchill himself referred to the expulsions as "tragedy on a prodigious scale". Bertrand Russell called it a crime against humanity, as did several US Senators and Congressmen. The socialist British publisher and philosopher Victor Gollancz condemned the expulsions in his books "Our Threatened Values" (London 1946, Left Book Club) and "In Darkest Germans" (1947). Churchill and Roosevelt bear responsibility because they "accepted" the principle of forced population transfer which originated with exiled Czech President Eduard Benes. There is no doubt that the expulsion of the Germans was many times worse -- and more costly in human lives -- than the "ethnic cleansing" we all abhor in the former Yugoslavia. As de Zayas elucidates in chapters 5 and 6 of Nemesis at Potsdam, the Western Allies did not want to have the Germans epelled -- this was, indeed, against their own interests as occupying powers, because, as Churchill aptly said, the millions of expelled Germans "brought their mouths" with them. Great Britain and the U.S. as occupying powers needed the Eastern German Provinces (which used to be Germany's bread basket) for food production. And the millions of German refugees from those provinces would need food and shelter in the West -- this could only come from the US breadbasket in the great plains of Nebraska. Indeed, the occupation of Germany cost the U.S. and Britain many millions of dollars. It is interesting to read in Chapter 5 of Nemesis at Potsdam that the drafter of article 13 of the Potsdam Protocol, Sir Geoffrey Harrison, and his American colleage Cavendish Cannon made it very clearly to the Soviets that they were against the expulsions -- but that since a situation had emerged in Eastern Europe whereby the Poles and Czechs were expelling the Germans in a cruel and disorderly manner, this should be supervised by the Allied Control Council and channeled into "orderly and humane" transfers. Article 13 was not a "blank check" to the Poles and Czechs -- on the contrary. It was, of course, ignored in Warsaw, Prague and Moscow -- as we know from General Eisenhower's and Robert Murphy's telegrams to the State Department in October 1945. Robert Murphy, by the way, wrote the preface to Nemesis at Potsdam, which has become a "standard" in Germany, having reached 14 editions, the last one "Die Nemesis von Potsdam" in a completely revised and enlarged version with Herbig Verlag, Münich. ISBN 3- 7766- 2454-K --Immerhinque (talk) 06:30, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

(1) One account has it that the U.S. adopted the idea of debellatio (subjugation) in order to suspend The Hague Regulations in Germany by requiring unconditional surrender. In that specific context, population transfers (in 1945) did not fall within the specific context of the Hague Regulations. Roosevelt announced the concept of unconditional surrender at the Anglo-American summit meeting at Casablanca in January, 1943. That was well before the Tehran Conference in the latter part of 1943.

(2) Article 13 of the Potsdam Agreement put no limts on the amount of subject ethnic Germans to be expelled. Therefore, 100% was an operative concept. So, the US & British signatures on the Potsdam Agreement accepted in effect the expulsion of 100% of ethnic Germans from east of the Oder-Neisse Line into Occupation Germany, which was West of the Oder-Neisse Line. Some bureaucracy was involved, but that didn't change the significance of the US & British sign-off on the Potsdam Agreement: some lip service was given to the Allied Control Council (ACC) determining the numbers of Germans to be "resettled". But, nothing was done when the ACC thus met, since it had no teeth unless the Soviet ACC representation agreed, for example, on any proposal brought up in ACC meetings (For general ACC information, see Allied Control Council). The Soviet ACC representation never accepted anything less than the possibility of 100% German ethnic expulsion from east of the Oder-Neisse Line into Occupation Germany i.e., west of the Oder-Neisse Line. So, the ACC (which comprised US, UK, & USSR representation) accepted the de facto specific wording and results of the Potsdam Agreement (including the sign-off by the US President and the British PM), namely that the Soviets, Czechs & Poles could expell 100% of ethnic Germans from their areas of Eastern Europe into Occupation Zone Germany (for the Poles this meant territory to include all 1937 German territory east of the Oder-Neisse Line, with the exception of northern East Prussia, which was destined for "final Peace Treaty" debate on incorporation into the USSR). What the US President & British PM signed off when approving the Potsdam Agreement included the specific, stand alone words, "The Three Governments, having considered the question in all its aspects, recognize that the transfer to Germany of German populations, or elements thereof . . . " : "German populations" is left open to legal interpretation as meaning 100% of the ethnic German population in any given area, to include virtually all areas under consideration. The US & Brit members on the ACC knew by the end of their above indicated ACC meeting with the Soviet ACC representative(s) that that was precisely what the Soviets had in mind. No influential member of either the US or British government stepped forward to effectively challenge the ACC in the direct aftermath of the ACC's roll over, and thus the Potsdam Agreement became a 100% solution, regarding ethnic German population transfers, and was completely controlled by the Soviets in that regard. (Note: I've noticed a pattern of contributers starting to pretend that the Poles had a certain amount of limited freedom in their aggressive behavior toward expelling ethnic Germans. My advice to them: Get over it(!) . . . the Soviet Russians and their Army controlled EVERYTHING !! . . . there was no such thing as the Soviets later learning that the Poles had been harsh in some expulsion action and thus the Soviets (i.e., as a power center rather than individuals) were somewhat taken aback. Those are FAIRY TALES!! -- the Soviets controlled what the Poles did and could have easily stopped any "outrage", whether it be caught in mid-process, or simply by preventing re-occurrences. It is likely that the Soviets simply gave tacit approval to everthing the Poles did to expell the Germans -- both the Poles (in general) & Russians agreed upon the major issue: the expulsion of the Germans (not much room for sentiment in such proceedings).)

(3) In 1945 NOTHING COULD HAPPEN ANYWHERE in the Eastern Europe countries "liberated" by the Soviet Army without explicit or tacit Soviet agreement. Specifically, this includes the "Wild transfers".ANNRC (talk) 09:07, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

The Nazis committed plenty of crimes in occupied France, Belgium, the Netherlands, but the French, Belgians and Dutch did not expell the Germans of Cologne and Düsseldorf to the East, whereas the Poles and Czechs did expel the Germans Did you read on differences between occupation of Western and Eastern Europe ? For starters the French were not classified as untermenschen.--Molobo (talk) 13:17, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Regarding (1) and most of (2) by ANNRC: When you de-contextualize the flight, evacuation, and expulsion of Germans (both pre-war inhabitants and post-1938 settlers) from Eastern Europe and the former Eastern German provinces, you completely eliminate one of the central reasons why it occurred (and was agreed to by all the Allies): namely that the German nation bullied, threatened, and finally subjugated other sovereign nations based on the concept that, simply because some of the population of those nations had German ancestry, Germany had the right to annex the territory of those nations. The expulsions were nothing less than a means of eliminating this "claim" from being a future cause celebre to a nation that had already been instrumental in causing two catastrophic wars in three decades, and acting barbarously (as a matter of official state policy) in the conduct of those wars.

Regarding the rest of (2) and (3): Making the USSR out to be an all-seeing, all-knowing big brother in 1945-48 is simply laughable. Historically (as opposed to your contrafactual argument), lots of things went on in this period that occurred "without explicit or tacit Soviet agreement". Or do you deny that armed resistance to Soviet occupation existed, not only in the nations 'liberated' by the USSR, but in areas of the USSR (the Ukraine, for one) as well? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.255.50.135 (talk) 17:12, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Population transfers were recommended as a means to the end you described, but all parties except the Soviets sought them on a much more limited scale than what ensued. The Americans and Brits caved in to the Soviets at Potsdam under the (their own) guise that a final peace treaty would be forthcoming, at which the final outlines of land areas & associated population transfers would be determined. The more the Americans and British faltered in the Potsdam discussions, the more the Soviets pushed and succeeded in their aims.

All of the mentioned resistance to the Soviet Union in Eastern Europe "in 1945-48" was minor (or "relatively minor" if preferred), given that millions of Soviet soldiers were in eastern Europe. In the larger picture, for example, the Soviets controlled the Polish Communist apparatus - the Polish Communists did what the Soviets wanted done. For example, if the Soviets had wanted all the Germans that were in Silesia in May, 1945 to remain there, they would have remained, regardless of what the Poles wanted.ANNRC (talk) 07:07, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Legality of the expulsions

re "Timothy V. Waters argues in 'On the Legal Construction of Ethnic Cleansing' that if similar circumstances arise in the future . . . would also allow the future ethnic cleansing of other populations under international law...." Comment: "similar circumstances" would by definition involve "unconditional surrender". Likewise, de Zayas says nothing about "unconditional surrender" in his book "A Terrible Revenge".ANNRC (talk) 08:01, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Human Rights

RE: "Ayala Lasso gave the German expellees recognition as victims of gross violations of human rights at the memorial service at the Paulskirche in Frankfurt a.M. on 28 May 1995" Comment: Given the international organizational focus on human rights starting about 1949 (Geneva Convention) and on-going, the assumption must be that if a future war includes specifications of "unconditional surrender", that the international organizations will be more pro-active in safeguarding human rights than they were, say, in 1943 when Roosevelt pushed for unconditional surrender. And of course, the climate of 1943 was followed in the same vein by that of 1944, 45, 46, etc.ANNRC (talk) 09:58, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

The U.N. Charter was signed June 26, 1945. —Preceding unsigned comment added by ANNRC (talk • contribs) 07:23, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Added

Added on legal aspects in regards to UN Charter. Shortened the De Zayas quote. Although he is personal backer of BdV far more important people are not quoted.--Molobo (talk) 23:51, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Problematic sentence

Expulsions and resettlements of other ethnicities took place contemporary to the expulsion of the Germans. From Tito's Yugoslavia, not only the Germans, but also most Italians were expelled. Poland did not only expel Ethnic Germans, but also expelled 482,000 and resettled 140,000 Ukrainians (Operation Wisla).

What does this mean, expelled 482,000 Germans or 482,000 Ukranians? But it says it expelled "not only Ethnic Germans"...on the other hand, why would different figures be given for resettled and expelled Ukranians? Can someone clear this up?--Npovshark (talk) 13:54, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Both figures probably refer to Ukrainians. The 482,000 figure probably refers to the overall number of Ukrainians that were expelled, while the latter to those who were resettled to somewhere else in Poland (generally in the west), the remainder being forced to move to Soviet Union. That's my guess at least.radek (talk) 15:01, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Yeah - look at Operation_Wisla.

Population transfer to Soviet Ukraine occurred from September 1944 to April 1946 (ca. 450,000 persons) and The second event occurred in 1947 under Operation Wisła . The Rusyn and Ukrainian population that still existed in southeastern Poland were forcibly resettled to western and northern Poland. The resettlement to West-Poland occurred from April 28 to July 31, 1947, and involved 130,000 - 140,000 persons who were internally relocated in Poland.

So 'expelled' here means expelled to Soviet Union. 'Resettled' means resettled internally within Poland.radek (talk) 15:26, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Ok, thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Npovshark (talk • contribs) 15:40, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Condition of the expellees after arriving in post-war Germany

I did quite a bit of editing to this section to make it read better--fixed grammar and re-wrote sentences, but did not make substantive changes. Please give it a look and feel free to change or revert what I did. Again, I didn't change anything fact wise, just tried to make it read better. If anyone reading this likes what I did, let me know and I can work on other parts of this article. Or if I did something wrong with my editing, please let me know that as well for guidance with future editing. Thanks. Slgordon3 (talk) 05:19, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

thought this interesting

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,600216,00.html

67.220.47.150 (talk) 04:35, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Evacuation to Denmark section

The entire "Evacuation and flight to Denmark" section is based on a single self published vanity press source Books On Demand. Per this talk ("they don't do any editorial review at all") the entire section should be removed unless reliable sources are found.radek (talk) 18:53, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Most of the section is based on an English language article of the "Spiegel" news magazine, which is available online. Just some minor details are based on the BoD source, there's no reason to remove the whole section. HerkusMonte (talk) 11:09, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Self published sources

Actually, the entire section is based on self published sources, not some SPS "among others" - there's not a RS in the entire section. Furthermore, the usual criteria for inclusion of SPS material is that the text either a) is about the source itself - as far as I can tell this section is NOT about "Erwin Ay, Rettende Ufer" or b) if the source is produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications - neither is the case here. Without a single RS to support it this section simply needs to go. Here's the policy link radek (talk) 08:37, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

(Copypasted fork here)

As HM has already outlined above, the section also contains many other references, see: Manfred Ertel. "A Legacy of Dead German Children", Spiegel Online, May 16, 2005 Skäpperöd (talk) 09:19, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

In view of the desire of ethnically homogeneous nation-states it didn't make a sense to drew borders through regions which were already inhabited ethnically homogeneous by Germans without any minoriti

This is currently in the section "A desire to create ethnically homogeneous nation-states". Comment: There is a difference between "temporary borders" and "permanent borders" . . . all borders in the 1937 land area of Germany east of the Oder-Neisse Line (including the Oder-Neisse Line itself) were temporary borders pending the final Peace Treaty for the European part of WW2. The Potsdam Agreement authorized the ethnic cleansing of all Germans from within the 1937 borders of Poland. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.14.240.177 (talk) 06:28, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

Somebody please put a stop to this insanity...

I browsed into this page and I'm seriously confused. Since I'm native Polish living in Poland and I know a thing or two about both 20th century history and Misplaced Pages's structure it can't be a good thing. If I wanted to delve into the place of Poland in the subject I could read about it in this article, however that's but scratching the surface of the problem. At least it's apparent after seeing all this other pages that cover this issue in context of Poland as well:

• German exodus from Eastern Europe - Almost identical to this article, not counting the countries the authors didn't manage to include in their definition of "Eastern Europe". The term is used very creatively as not even the article on Eastern Europe lists so many countries allegedly located there. Anyway, Poland is a country in Central Europe. The problem is that so is Germany. The article's title wouldn't make sense were it correct. Not to mention IMHO exodus implies voluntary relocation, which hardly was the case here.
• Flight and expulsion of Germans from Poland - Contains many passages from this article and the one above. Either of the two should be removed, preferably German exodus from Eastern Europe, which also has a flawed title.
• Emigration of Germans from Poland in the 20th century - Article very badly written, not even sourced properly. Were it deleted nobody would cry (except for the author maybe).

If redundancy could kill this bunch of articles could in time generate a higher death toll then Hitler and Stalin combined.

Seriously now - this here is a prime example of content forking, which in turn is grounds for deletion. The articles on more detailed subjects actually contain less relevant information on the then this parent article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Llewelyn MT (talk • contribs) 19:37, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Since you know a thing or two about 20th Century history will you agree that "The Potsdam Agreement authorized the ethnic cleansing of all Germans from within the 1937 borders of Poland."? A simple answer will suffice i.e., keeping the answer responsive to 1945 Germans living within the 1937 boundaries of Poland. Lets call this "Step One" (& therefore it needn't address issues beyond the specific wording in the question).

As we can see in the preface of the article about ethnic cleansing the term was coined in 1990s for a very different thing. First of all it implies the active and aggressive role of the local population. There's no evidence anything like that took place on a large scale. The differences between German relocation of Polish people and relocation of Germans from Poland was that the Germans were allowed to pack their things before departure and didn't travel in railroad cars meant for cattle. I'd prefer to call it pressured ethnic emigration to avoid further confusion.

Also, the article seems anti-Polish to me. Poles didn't take part in drawing of the new maps for which they're held responsible. I find sentences like this annoying: "Another motivation was to punish the Germans who some argued were collectively guilty of the Nazi war crimes by ethnic association." "Some argue"? Duh. Of course we blamed the Germans. See why. Nazi Party was elected by nearly half of the voters and there was no meaningful opposition to the Nazi politics in Germany throughout the war. Llewelyn MT (talk) 00:06, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

(1) Whatever its label, what was accomplished in 1945 and beyond east of the Oder-Neisee Line was ethnic cleansing. Ethnic cleansing is done by governments, not "local populations" - the Potsdam Agreement provided a mandate for the ethnic cleansing of all German lands east of the Oder-Neisse Line (plus centuries-established German ethnic settlements in Czechoslovakia and Hungary). (2) If you will do some research you will find pictures of expelled Germans stuffed into railway cars - it's not that difficult to find on the internet. (3) Poles did in fact take part in preparing proposed maps of shifting the boundary of Poland to the Oder-Neisse line. Again, research will readily reveal such matters. Such proposals date from early in the war and involve the Exile Polish government in London. (4) Several of the Polish contributers to the English language Misplaced Pages over the years have, via various outbursts, created the tone of the "collective guilt for Nazi war crimes by ethnic association." Again, a little research will bear this out. Note: Of course such ethnic Polish contributers could be located outside of Poland in any of several countries. Caveat to #(1) above: the orginal mandate from the Potsdam Conference was for the ethnic cleansing of all Germans from Czechoslovakia, Hungary, and from within the 1937 boundaries of Poland west of the Curzon Line. But that fine print didn't stop the Polish Communist government from ethnic cleansing most of the German eastern territory that had been temporarily assigned to Polish Administration by the Potsdam Agreement, pending the final Peace Treaty of World War 2. Caveat #2: Ethnic Cleansing: it is up to the governments to control/manage/represent "local populations" -- by not doing so in some situations the results lead to ethnic cleansing; in other situations the government deliberately incites one part of the population to engage in ethnic cleansing (this includes "participating" in the ethnic cleansing via use of government militas/police/other military). ANNRC (talk) 01:41, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Llewelyn that a sub-article should neither hold less nor just the same information as the respective section(s) in the parental article, and I agree with Llewelyn that the present structure needs to be optimized. I think the confusing structure contributes to the partial redundancy of the articles, and is caused by the unability to cut the masses of information along properly defined lines. Finding such lines however is difficult: Right now, the articles on "German history outside Germany" are split along the lines of settlement vs exodus on the one hand, and territorial definitions on the other hand, with the latter causing most of the difficulties. There just were no defined stable territories over history, including Germany itself. What kind of a hierarchy would you propose to solve this? Skäpperöd (talk) 14:34, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

First of all I do admire the editorial balance of this article. It gives key points and sends you to many pages on subtopics for more info. We should create some logical structure to the whole series. The best would be to take the post-war borders into account. I'm pretty certain we could get rid of German exodus from Eastern Europe and Emigration of Germans from Poland in the 20th century. Relevant parts from the first could be moved here. The other may not even be worth keeping, but I'm not a historian so it's not for me to decide. From a purely technical POV that's a substandard article. Llewelyn MT (talk) 00:06, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Nazi-occupied Warsaw

How does the unsourced paragraph about atrocities in Nazi-occupied Warsaw fit in this article? Of course it needs to be outlined that the expulsion of Germans was - among other reasons - justified by holding them collectively guilty of the preceeding Nazi atrocities. This is already stated and sourced, and the atrocities itself already have their own articles. What qualifies the Warsaw events to be in this article? How does the paragraph comply with WP:UNDUE? Skäpperöd (talk) 14:34, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

The Warsaw "events" as you call it, are a very important part of the countless crimes that the Nazi Germany commited in Poland therefore it has a place in the article. Loosmark (talk) 14:49, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

Of course it was a Nazi crime committed in Poland, but the question is why it is in this article? Skäpperöd (talk) 15:02, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

Why not? It was one of the biggest crimes against the Poles plus the capital was completely devastated by the Nazi bandits. It is therefore useful to explain why many Polish people felt they cannot longer live in the same country with Germans anymore. You know to prevent the casual reader of the article thinking these expulsion came "out the blue". Loosmark (talk) 15:19, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

The casual reader should receive the message that the expulsions were agreed to at the Yalta and Potsdam conferences. They should also be aware that Stalin outmaneuvered the gullible Western Allies at both those conferences. Stalin didn't care about the Poles (he killed 22,000 Poles, mostly Polish military officers, at Katyn in 1940); Stalin was more concerned about gaining back lands lost in the early 1920s, namely lands within the 1937 Polish border east of the Curzon Line. That land area had a population which included 40% ethnic Poles. Stalin needed somewhere to dump those Poles, so he proposed that Germans be moved west & the Poles be moved west. Roosevelt was dying in 1945 - he was easily outmaneuvered by Stalin. By the Potsdam Conference in the summer of 1945 Churchill had lost power and had to leave the conference early, and Truman was tied down by Roosevelt's commitments, so Stalin got his way again. The casual reader should also receive the message that the "Wild" expulsions by both Russian and Polish authorities were begun east of the Oder-Neisse Line and long before the end of July 1945 Potsdam Conference which ONLY authorized the ethnic cleansing of Germans from within the 1937 borders of Poland, and from Czechoslovakia and Hungary. The Potsdam Agreement separated all German territory east of the Oder-Neisse Line from "Occupation Germany" (all of that German territory east of the Oder-Neisse Line had been part of the Soviet Occupation Zone of Germany prior to the Potsdam Conference). Most of that German territory was placed under temporary Polish Administration pending the final Peace Treaty for World War 2. The Potsdam Agreement also stipulated that Northern East Prussia to be placed under temporary Soviet Administration pending the final Peace Treaty for World War 2. Note: there is a distinction between "Occupation" and "temporary Administration" as delineated by the Potsdam Agreement. Neither Roosevelt nor Churchill were in favor of Poland extending all the way to the Oder-Neisse Line.ANNRC (talk) 09:38, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

What's the point of writting these long rants on this talk page? A lot of what you write is true however this is the expulsion of the Germans article not the territorial changes or the Potsdam Agreement article. Let me repeat again, the terrible Nazi-German crimes which caused countless victims were responsible for the anti-German feelings among Poles. This is crucial as otherwise the Germans could have remained in postwar Poland as Polish citizens of German nationality. Another thing is that nobody here is arguing that Stalin wish to grab as much teritory as possible wasn't the main driving force behind the teritorial changes but wihtout everything that happen before that he would have never been able to pull that off. Loosmark (talk) 10:01, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

So-called "long rants" are better than short half-truths (which seem to thrive on such Talk pages). If enough short half-truths are assembled in, say, a conspiracy, then they are proclaimed as TRUE. Boundaries are somewhat arbitrary re the background of such matters as "expulsions of the Germans" . . . so, "territorial changes", "the Potsdam Agreement", "Nazi-occupied Warsaw" could become boundary issues, depending upon their substance and how salient/germane such substance is to the matter at hand. Re your point about Germans remaining in "Poland" (you use that term without defining which Poland you are talking about, whether it be the 1937 boundary Poland (minus, of course, the territory east of the Curzon Line), or the added on Potsdam directed Polish Temporary Administrative areas of German territory): you seem to be missing the point that it was not up to the Poles as to whether or not relatively large populations of Germans were to remain -- Stalin called the shots. There was no separate Polish freedom that somehow skirted Stalin. Poland was Stalin's flower bed - he didn't want any German flowers in his flower bed; rather, he wanted nice, obedient Polish Communists.ANNRC (talk) 13:28, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

And what are these half-truths you are talking about? I really don't understand what point are you trying to make. I already agreed that Stalin was calling the shots, my point was simply that without all the sh*ts the Nazis did things would have been very different. And yes the Polish communist were indeed very obedient to Stalin (note that the German commies in the DDR were just as obedient) but a great part of Polish population was both anti-communist and anti-soviet so from that perspective there wasn't really much a difference if the Germans stayed where they were. Loosmark (talk) 14:20, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Polish German history was never too friendly but WW2 and what happened in Poland at that time was "SOMETHING"..Loosmark is right that if not for the war the anti-German sentiment in Poland would not be even close to what it was right after the war. It was probably hard to find people in Poland at that time who would feel sorry for the Germans driven out of their homes. Almost every Polish family lost somebody due to the German invasion...I hope our German editors here will understand how sensitive this subject is for Polish editors. Thanks--Jacurek (talk) 16:20, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

OFF-TOPIC: Regarding Polish family losses in WW2, the Soviets occupied ca half of Poland between Sept 1939 and June 1941. They contributed to the losses to Polish families - anyone who lived in that area during that time was aware of Soviet actions. Here's from Misplaced Pages, Subj "Soviet invasion of Poland": "The 1939 Soviet invasion of Poland was a military operation that started without a formal declaration of war on 17 September 1939, during the early stages of World War II, sixteen days after the beginning of the Nazi German attack on Poland. It ended in a decisive victory for the Soviet Union's Red Army. . . . During the existence of the People's Republic of Poland, the invasion was a taboo subject, almost omitted from the official history in order to preserve the illusion of "eternal friendship" between members of the Eastern Bloc."ANNRC (talk) 20:08, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

You are very right ANNRC. Anti-Soviet sentiments in Poland were also very strong after the war. I would like to say something positive here...Anti-Russian sentiments are still strong in Poland today but you can't say the same about the sentiments towards the Germans, they are rather positive. Looks like the old wounds are slowly healing. Thank you for your comments.--Jacurek (talk) 21:12, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

The comment below was somewhere else when I introduced it and got swept away when the thread "grew". It does NOT refer to the above comment. Skäpperöd (talk) 16:30, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

You are arguing collective guilt here, a concept that played a role in 1945, and as such is explained already in the article. The outdated collective guilt concept however must not be the basis for this article - the expellees did not destroy Warsaw. Skäpperöd (talk) 15:32, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

What a silly straw man; I'm not are arguing collective guilt and I most energetically reject such accusations. My point was the expulsion of Germans needs to be placed in the proper historical contex. Just consider this: after the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor killing around 3000 people there were a lot of anti-Japanese feelings, they were put in camps etc. The Nazi Germany brutally killed many millions of Poles, almost everybody lost at least some family member etc. In that context it was impossible to expect that the German and Polish people would leave together as if nothing happened. It's very regrettable that many Germans were expelled but their expulsion was a direct consequence of the Nazis' atrocities and horrors. Loosmark (talk) 15:47, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

I have to agree with Loosmark here. Anti German sentiment was very strong in Poland at the time. (not anymore) People were terrified by the sound of the German language alone. I remember my grandmother telling me that if I had ever suddenly shouted "halt!" behind her back she would have died. She was in real hell during the German occupation. You have to understand that Skäpperöd. On the other hand ordinary Germans can not be blindly blamed for everything. Wermaht soldiers for example just followed orders, even while burning Warsaw or shooting at Polish or Jewish civilians. They had no choice, they fought for their country and were tottaly brainwashed. I have heard many nice stories about Germans in Poland even from my Grandmother who told me about Germans she knew who were afraid of Gestapo themselves.--Jacurek (talk) 18:21, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

Jacurek I think we should be carefull with the explanation they were following orders. To a degree that is correct but at some point that stops to be an excuse, most certainly when it comes to war crimes and horrible crimes against civilian population. Mind that many Nazis at the Nuremberg trials and elsewhere were saying that they were just following orders and didn't have other choice. The view of most post-WII tribunals like Nuremberg, Tokyo and more modern ones like Haag is that following orders can't be used as an excuse. Loosmark (talk) 22:09, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

I know, you have a good point. I was talking about regular German soldiers, civilians, women, children etc... What could the soldiers do? Once ordered to shoot at the civilians they had no choice. And if the civilians were Jewish they probably believed that they are doing the right thing. Nazi propaganda thought them that the Jews are the biggest threat to them...threat to the "superior" race. We know how ridiculous that German superiority complex was, but many Germans at that time really believed that they are better and that the Jews or pure Poles have to go. I don't blame them for being brainwashed. Not all Germans were so stupid to follow Hitler blindly either. My concern here is the fact that sometimes people are trying to portray Germans as the victims of the war. German suffering was not even close to the suffering and the destruction their country (Nazi Germany) inflicted on other nations. Germany is a democratic, prosperous nation now, nation full of happy people which are looking into the bright future. Polish Jews are no longer here…1000 years of rich culture and their people have disappeared... and this is the difference.--Jacurek (talk) 23:19, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

Well, has somebody ever imagined that the statement "is a democratic, prosperous nation now, nation full of happy people which are looking into the bright future" could be made today (or could have been made earlier) about certain states if only they in 1918 (and again in 1945) had taken a less hostile stance towards the numerous Germans within their newly drawn borders? After all, these goverments took effective measures to make them Germans outside their borders. And, on top of that, desire for further territorial gains "recovery" at the expense of Germany (and other states) was expressed, at least by some factions. They sowed the whirlwind in the 1920s and reaped the hurricane in the 1930s. -- Matthead  Discuß   13:34, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Well many Poles as well as other people had to live outside their borders too... As for this comment They sowed the whirlwind in the 1920s and reaped the hurricane in the 1930s. it's a bit out of place as nothing can excuse the brutality of the Nazi regime. Loosmark (talk) 14:50, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

To Jacurek. So after the rich jewish culture of Poland and other countries was destroyed (at this point, I want to ask what happened to the last Jews in Poland which survived the Holocaust?), it was good and clever to destroy also the rich culture of the polish Germans, the rich culture of the Silesians, of the Pomeranians, of the East Prussians (the culture of the people which built cities like Breslau, Stettin, Danzig and Königsberg)? And also the culture of the Germans from Bohemia and Moravia, of Slovakia, of Russia, of the Baltic States, of Yugoslavia, of Transylvania and of Bessarabia (the culture of the People which were invited to make modern States of this countries)? And I don't think that the People which didn't survived the Expulsion are now happy People in a modern Germany full of happy People, they never arrived there, and may are buried somewhere anonymously. Jonny84 (talk) 14:46, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Johnny..I knew that somebody will bring Polish post war anti-Semitism right away...I just knew it...What happened to Jews in Poland after the war was not mass genocide and it happened ONLY because of the the war and communist take over. Jews would never leave Poland and would still live there and prosper if not for the sick minded Nazis and their "brilliant" plans for Germany. With all the anti-Semitism that existed in Poland before the war, Poland was still the best place for the Jews to live in. Poland was their country and they loved as much as Germans loved Germany. People of Warsaw in 1939 fought to defend their city like no others and guess what...one third of them were Jewish. Now...do I think that it was good for the German culture of Stettin and Königsberg to be destroyed and that the German civilians suffered rapes and expulsions after the war. Absolutely not. But what I also think is that if not for the crazy German Nazism and if not for the war Germany started...Polish Jews would still live in Warsaw and Germans in Königsberg.--Jacurek (talk) 18:16, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

You neglected to include all of the German cities identified by Jonny: it wasn't just "German culture of Stettin and Koenigsberg (that was) destroyed" . . . Jonny didn't just mention Stettin and Koenigsberg; he said, "cities like Breslau, Stettin, Danzig and Königsberg". What happened to Breslau's University ??????? ANNRC (talk) 20:21, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

ANNRC, please do not try to provoke conflicts with unconstructive comments. Thank you.--Jacurek (talk) 21:00, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

"Polish Jews would still live in Warsaw" This is questionable after the bigger part of the last Jews in Poland which survived were discriminated and were forced to leave Poland between 1968 and 1970. Maybe you forgot about it? Does Jews blame you for this? Should you expel some Poles? Not? Maybe for the pogroms? Wouldn't it be justified? -- And your argument "it happened ONLY because of the the war and communist take over." is so good like "it happened ONLY because the Nazis take over." --Jonny84 (talk) 19:52, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Jonny, 1968 events are also connected to the war and the communist takeover after. And no, I did not "forget" about it. Perhaps you should read more about it so you can understand what happened. I can assure you that if Hitler was never born, there would be no need to build the Museum of the History of the Polish Jews in Warsaw because these people would be still there and not in heaven as they are now.... but thanks for your comments.--Jacurek (talk) 20:26, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

I find comments like yours silly. Nobody here is arguing that the expulsions of the Germans were a good thing. The point is simply that after the Nazi Germany triggered the most brutal and horrifying war in hitherto history, a war in which 6 million Polish citizien died (many of them in most atrocious circumstances) and where the majority of Polish cities were devastated and destroyed, it is completely unrealistic to expect that the Polish people still wanted to live on with the Germans as it nothing happened. I'd say that Hitler and the Nazis are directly responsable for the distruction of the rich German culture. Loosmark (talk) 18:03, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Does anybody disputed what happenend in Poland? But... recompensing crimes with crimes is a very questionable thing. There is no law that links crimes with the expulsion of people as a punishment or there is no law that recompense crimes with crimes. Somebody who make crimes isn't better like Germans which make crimes. A crime is a crime. And a crime could never be a justification for another crimes and wrongs. - Maybe you find this silly, but for some people it's maybe silly to argue that expellees have a good life now (like nothing happened to them) and that there is nothing wrong with expulsions, "cause they're living now in a modern democratic state where everybody is swimming like in gold". And at last, Polish people hadn't to live on with Silesians, Pomeranians and East-Prussians, 'cause they lived by the majority outside of the polish settlement area, so what is your point? This is a silly argument. --Jonny84 (talk) 19:52, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Johnny, of course it was very wrong what happened to the German people who lost everything and had to leave their homes, but the question is: Who is there to blame for it? The Soviets? Three stooges in Yalta, Teheran and Potsdam? Poles, who could say as much as the bricks in the Berlin Wall and had to leave their Kresy homes behing as well?... or maybe the Germans themselves for starting this evil conflict in the first place?--Jacurek (talk) 20:49, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

There is no need to blame somebody, but there is a possibility to undo. - Jonny84 (talk) 21:36, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Jonny84, the expulsions of Germans cannot be compared in any way with the crimes that the Nazi Germany perpetuated on Polish and Jewish people. If you don't get that i suggest you take and read some good book about Auschwitz, Dachau or Treblinka. I don't understand what do you mean by Polish people hadn't to live on with Silesians, Pomeranians and East-Prussians, 'cause they lived by the majority outside of the polish settlement area. Perhaps you should elaborate a bit and try to make some sense. Loosmark (talk) 20:59, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Take a pause, take a deep breath and then read a second time: Nobody compared the expulsion with the Holocaust and the sufferings of the Jews. I only called the expulsion a crime, without any comparison. Think about this and if necessary also a second time. The only ones who tries to make comparisons are you and Jacurek. -- Jonny84 (talk) 21:36, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

I see you try to backpedal now. Nice try but you said this Somebody who make crimes isn't better like Germans which make crimes. A crime is a crime. Loosmark (talk) 21:50, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

And where is the relation? --Jonny84 (talk) 22:00, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Stalin was the main driver behind the expulsion of the Germans. Do you really believe that Stalin was concerned about the suffering of the Poles by the Nazis????? Churchill and Roosevelt never envisioned the almost 100% ethnic German expulsion from east of the Oder-Neisse Line. Again, Stalin was the driver in all of that (Polish Communists were Stalin's lap dogs). Stalin preyed on the dying Roosevelt at Yalta, and outmaneuvered Truman and Churchill's replacement at Potsdam. You two are looking for Eternal Justice arising from what is really Stalin's outhouse. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.14.240.177 (talk • contribs) 06:52, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

IP 76.something could you please sign your comments? Just adding text makes it a bit confusing who wrote what. Now regarding your comment it is true that Stalin was the main driver behind the expulsion of the Germans but the suffering caused by the Nazis was still an extremelly important factor, without it he surely wouldn't have been able to push his agenda and neither would the Poles have supported the expulsion. Loosmark (talk) 12:58, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Often, a bot adds the missing signature, but when this fails, a regular user can add a signature like {{unsigned|76.14.240.177|06:52, 24 June 2009}}, like I did above. -- Matthead  Discuß   13:34, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

I don't see the connection between the Nazis persecuting the Poles and Stalin wanting to get back the lands east of the Curzon Line that Russia lost to Poland in the early 1920s. Russia/the Soviet Union was going to get back those lands, period, at the end of WW2 & Stalin wanted somewhere to dump the 40% of that population that was Polish . . . the Germans could have treated all Poles as long lost Hun brothers during WW2 & Stalin would have still demanded former Russian territory east of the Curzon Line at war's end. BTW, since the Huns "courted" the local ladies in both German areas and in Polish areas in ancient times there is a sense in which Poles & Germans share a certain level of Hunnish genetics -- some Germans reveled in the Hun label in WW1, since they self-identified with being modeled on such fierce warriors.ANNRC (talk) 20:00, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Oh but there is a connection; first Stalin would probably have never been able to push any teritorial demands on Germany if not for the Nazi crimes on Polish and all other people. And secondly without the crimes there wouldn't had been so much anti-German feelings and they could have still become Polish citizens instead of being expulsed. Loosmark (talk) 21:07, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Actually, its not that simple: (1) Stalin and the Nazis agreed in 1939 to a phased attack on Poland, in order to partition it . . . but Stalin had to wait until 1945 to dump the Polish population of pre-war Poland from east of the Curzon Line into the extended area west of the Curzon Line. (2) On your other point, only a small percentage of all Germans expelled starting in 1945 came from areas within the 1937 borders of Poland. (3) As stated above, in the lands east of the Curzon Line within the 1937 borders of Poland, 40% of that population was Polish. ANNRC (talk) 22:26, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

I am not asking for arguments here whether or not the Nazis did evil things and with that created responding hatred. Neither do I need a confirmation here that this hatred (or sentiment) was by some applied not only to the perpetrators, but to the German people in general. And that this also played a role in respect to the expulsions, at least in Poland and Czechoslovakia. All this is undisputed, mentioned, and sourced:

• The "Background" section already mentions lebensraum concept, Holocaust, ethnic cleansing, the infliction of a variety of evils on occupied people, involvement of ethnic Germans, and gives the respective links to Nazi atrocities.
• The section "Punishment of ethnic Germans for Nazi aggression" is entirely devoted to the connection between Nazi atrocities and expulsions.

What makes the Warsaw events exceptional or important in respect to the expulsions? Why is this not WP:undue in this article? Skäpperöd (talk) 20:28, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

I think you answer your question in the above. This is part of the background which as you yourself note is undisputed and mentioned. Removing it is un-mentioning it. Additionally - and why it's in the "Background" section rather than a different one is the (unsourced) preceding sentence which gives as an example the supposed attempts at changing demographics in interwar Poland. The Nazi Pabst Plan is another, and in fact, better, example of attempts at changing demographics.radek (talk) 20:46, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

Proposal

Include a link to Generalplan Ost in the background section, delete the specifics about Warsaw per undue/unsourced. Skäpperöd (talk) 22:19, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

I don't know...I think that the atrocities committed in Warsaw and in Poland in general are important here because they were (among other things of course) a justifications and excuse for the Allies in their decision to start massive population transfers. They knew that because of the German atrocities nobody will oppose their decisions. Kind of "we can do whatever we want now with these "terrible" Germans, they deserve it". This is my opinion at least. Maybe rewording somehow would work? But please be careful with this sensitive issues. Thanks--Jacurek (talk) 22:44, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

If a citation can be found linking Warsaw to deportations/expulsions, I support keeping it. Otherwise, remove. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 15:14, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

oppose. Skäpperöd did not provide any good reason for removing the specifics about Warsaw therefore WP:AINT applies. Loosmark (talk) 07:42, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

I presented as reasons: Unsourced and WP:UNDUE. Skäpperöd (talk) 08:07, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

Agree with all Jacurek said, the question is whether the Warsaw events should be prominently included in addition to all that is already there on this topic. That from a general perspective the Warsaw events were not - as it is put now - the "most dramatic ethnic cleansing" should be clear to everyone here. And obviously there is no source in any way supporting the prominence given to the current description of the events in respect to the post-war expulsions. All arguing above is for the general importance of Nazi atrocities in the background, on which there already is a consensus.

So how about ammending the paragraph dealing with the Nazi atrocities the following way:

After this sentence: " Following the racist concept of lebensraum, the Nazis devastated Eastern Europe during World War II, introducing previously unknown ethnic cleansing practices.", we add "Local concepts like Pabst and Nisko Plan were in the course of the war replaced by the general concepts of Generalplan Ost and Final Solution, blueprints for the genocide on Slavs and Jews." Skäpperöd (talk) 08:07, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

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