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User:Axmann8's User page

Axmann8 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Is the campaign image on User:Axmann8 acceptable? Besides the fact that there is no copyright statement attached to the image (the Palin campaign probably would not mind the image being put up wherever they can get it), is the use of a campaign image a violation of the no polemical statements provision of WP:USER? Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 20:22, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Other than the copyright thing, I don't see anything too wrong with that. We have "this user is a democrat/republican/anarchist/whatever-the-hell" userboxes which more or less serve the same purpose. The image isn't attacking anyone or deliberately provoking them, so it can stay until it's deleted for the copyright thing. Hersfold 20:27, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Is he still here? Huh. *checks* Oh, he only got a week this time. I've seen some other similar pages, doesn't really bother me either. (Besides, I have a strange suspicion that editor won't be around much longer anyhow.) Tony Fox (arf!) 20:29, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

As much as I disagree with him, I dont take issue with it, Its a copyrighted image, so thats the only issue. As was said earlier, we can have userboxes that say "This user voted for hope and change, not country first." --DemocraplypseNow (talk) 20:31, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm a stolid Democrat, and I don't see any problem with it. The sour-grapes item about Obama is gone, and that was polemic. Wishful thinking about a possible future candidate, in a positive way, is harmless enough. Besides, she's cute. :) Baseball Bugs carrots 22:31, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

And I see the image was deleted, so it's a moot point. Good thing I downloaded it already. :) Baseball Bugs carrots 18:31, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

User now appears to have stirred up further controversy by nominating another users obama userbox for deletion (incorrectly the first time). He first jumped into voting on a rash of AfDs, with very brief comments or misused terms and then did that one. I suspect his first wrong attempt was from not understanding Twinkle properly. Anyway, the above nom looks like a WP:POINT thing. I have left him a message urging him to stay away from deletion noms, certainly in controversial areas, until he is fully familiar with policy. I think this is erring on the generous side, as nominating an Obama related item for deletion with his specific block history can only be seen as a bad faith act. Mfield (talk) 17:02, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm going to go out on a limb somewhat and guess what Axmann's argument is going to be on his own behalf. Henrik offered to unblock Axmann on the condition that he stay away from "Obama-related topics". Axmann only promised to stay away from the Obama article specifically and made no promise to keep away from Obama topics in general, and he is liable to argue that he has stuck to the letter of what he promised. In essence, he stomped on the good faith that Henrik showed him by unblocking him. Axmann has been blocked 3 times in 3 weeks for this kind of behavior. Can something be done? Baseball Bugs carrots 18:10, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

The thing is given his interest in political issues, attempts to force him to stay away from anything connected are going to be impossible or fruitless, at that point he may as well stay away entirely. As far as I see it right now he needs to stay away from the kind of disruptive editing as demonstrated by such actions as nominating things for deletion to make some kind of point. Those kinds of issues are very black and white whereas conditions on what he can edit are open to a degree of interpretation and bending. Continued violations of WP:POINT or disruptive editing on the other hand have clear sanctions and will eventually get him blocked indefinitely. If his next block is not indefinite then it needs to have explicit conditions, delivered as part of a consensus of his actions, that are not open to any reinterpretation. Mfield (talk) 18:21, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

As someone pointed out on his talk page, there is plenty of room for positive contributions, if he wants to. He's so hung up on the negatives and the rumors that he can't get past it. What's happening with the Obama stuff, especially since the election, is similar to what was happening in the Palin article from when she got the VP nomination until the election - the article was besieged by all manner of attempts to post gossip, rumors, inuendos, and every negative thing they could pull out of thin air. If someone wants to really grow as an editor, they should try taking an article whose subject they disagree with, and fight off the POV-pushers and keep the article neutral. That takes some serious discipline. Baseball Bugs carrots 18:28, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

I've been trying to gently steer him away from the sort of non-productive polemic editing he has engaged in, and I'm urging some patience here. Mind you, I'm not interested in giving infinite amounts of rope; another stunt like this deletion nomination and he'll be very close to exhausting the community's patience. At the same time, he is willing to engage in discussion and seems willing to listen, but still hasn't quite grokked the community standards. I still have some hopes of reform, but it would help if he didn't have the sort of attention he has attracted with many watching for the slightest mishap or borderline behavior.

On another note, The easy solution would of course be to ban every problematic editor, but we should be ready to recognize the need for a diverse set of editors, including those who take a bit longer to catch up to the community standards. henrik•talk 20:27, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

If it pleases, I'll stay away from Obama-related topics. Staying away from the Obama article was the only explicit stipulation. I will fully admit to have broken WP:POINT, but I very much take offense when people nominate my images on my userpage for deletion when 1. I had no idea this was even a discussion here until another user pointed it out and 2. It seems like anyone who doesn't support Obama is automatically outcast and thrown to the dogs. I see there is an Obama-supporting article with the blatantly anti-American statement "I voted for hope and change, not country first", however there was no such McCain-sided userbox created to negate that blatant disregard for NPOV. If my direction is to stay away from the political topics at all, for say... a month? I'd be willing to do that, but blocking me would only prove my point that Misplaced Pages is liberal-leaning. -Axmann8 (Talk) 21:09, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm fairly certain that blocking you would prove that you are not working well in this collaborative project rather than proving any perceived biases. That being said, I do believe that some sort of topic ban is appropriate and one with terms that he can't wiggle out of. AniMate 21:38, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Axmann8 - admitting to the WP:POINT violation is a good sign, and your acceptance of the fact that you might have to stay away from whatever topics are stipulated for a while. I think if you immerse yourself into some other areas of wikipedia, some other non controversial topics that you are interested in, you will find that you will learn a lot about the way things work and the reasons why policies exist without the danger of getting into disputes that end up in going from bad to worse. This is a large and diverse community that has built up a lot of guidelines and policies over time and navigating and understanding them takes some time. You just have to give it the necessary time and other people the necessary respect in the mean time. Mfield (talk) 03:01, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

His userpage as now stands is fine. As has been said in many of these types of discussions, until Userpages are strictly limited to On-Wiki subjects like articles created, GA/FA lists and personal 'toolboxes' of links, then simple pro-candidate, non-advocacy, non-confrontational messages shouldn't be a problem; if anything, they help concrete complaints of POV pushing, which Axmann8 really does have issues with. It seems we're drifting into the area of topic bans, and I'd thoroughly support a block for a three month period on Barack Obama-related pages, and 6 weeks on all political pages. take him out of the echo chamber and the arena, and the young man may learn to chill more. ThuranX (talk) 22:13, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

I'd support that. //roux   22:27, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Edit warring, plus suspected sockpuppetry on both sides.

86.156.208.244 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Wikireader41 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Nangparbat (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Hkelkar (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
Kashmircloud (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
86.151.123.189 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

-
86.158.236.94 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
86.163.154.190 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
81.158.129.140 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
86.162.70.84 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)
The involved parties are 86.156.208.244 (talk · contribs) and Wikireader41 (talk · contribs). They were arguing over the reliability of government pages. I accidentally stepped in the middle by making a revert with huggle, and have ascertained that they both suspect each other of sockpuppetry. There is a lot of discussion relating to the matter at my talk page, and at User_talk:Wikireader41. Thank you Fahadsadah (talk) 17:29, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

I suspect 86.156.208.244 (talk · contribs) is a sock of Nangparbat (talk · contribs). he has generally been very incivil and is pushing pakistani islamist POV on multiple articles even as the # 9 Failed state#2008 of Pakistan is sinking deeper into crisis and needs to be blocked. The Indian govt websites are widely regarded as a credible source of info about India. I dont wear socks ;-)--Wikireader41 (talk) 17:45, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

The above is Wikireader41's accusation of sockpuppetry. 86.156.208.244 appears to be away right now, but he accused Wikireader41 of being a sockpuppet of Hkelkar: . Fahadsadah (talk) 07:57, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

AS Admins can see his hate and POV pushing for pakistan is clear his edits are similair to Hkelkar and Kashmircloud (who suddenly disappeared) anyways as his comments have shown his pov motives he speaks of matters not relating to this issue e.g failed state i will continue to remove his vandal edits 86.151.123.189 (talk) 13:34, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

it is clear here that 86.156.208.244 (talk · contribs) and 86.151.123.189 (talk · contribs) are the same person. isnt that what sockpuppetry is all about. if he is innocent why does he not register. it is a well known and concerning fact that Britishers of Pakistani descent have extreme views and are being investigated by CIA. CIA warns Barack Obama that British terrorists are the biggest threat to the US  ????--Wikireader41 (talk) 16:22, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

I have added {{Userlinks}} tags for all involved and allegedly involved parties. Fahadsadah (talk) 15:35, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Without checkuser evidence nothing can be proved. Fahadsadah (talk) 17:40, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

As admins can clearly see this hater of pakistani people has created a new article against us and i will not rest untill he is removed from the pages of wikipedia forever bring it on HKELKAR or is it kashmircloud ? 86.151.123.189 (talk) 18:44, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

No one has created an article 'against us'. No article is an attack on you personally. The (well sourced and wikilinked) article is about notable extremist Pakistanis in Britain. It is not accusing all Pakistanis of being extremist, you are the one inferring that. If it were unsourced that would be another thing, but these issues are well documented and reported by primary reliable sources. It is a matter of record already. Personalization of the issue displays a clear POV and incapability of remaining neutral on your part, as such you should clearly not be editing the article at all. If you have sourced information to refute claims in the article then provide them at article talk. Mfield (talk) 20:28, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Please check his new pathetic article which is another attack on pakistanis 86.151.123.189 (talk) 18:51, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

This is spilling over now...

Earlier today I blocked 86.151.123.189 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) for personal attacks and disruptive editing, and then about 10 mins later the following sock IPs - 86.158.236.94 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log), 86.163.154.190 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) and 81.158.129.140 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log).

All the argument this time was over Islamic Extremism among British Pakistanis which was being blanked with no discussion. The last IP was making claims about the article "attacking us" and posting talk page messages on related pages soliciting (Pakistani) editors to delete the article and creators other contributions. I removed the disruptive comments and semi protected the two articles.

This afternoon another editor, UnknownForEver (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) speedied the article as nonsense and gave me a warning for removing talk page messages with a "what right have I" speech. When I removed the inappropriate speedy tag with a note to AfD it properly if sound reasons could be explained, I was given another warning about removing speedy tags (apparently admins don't have the right to decline speedys). I have since explained to the UnknownForEver that as an (uninvolved) admin I am protecting the encyclopedia from disruption and that they should not attempt to have articles deleted by inappropriately tagging them - tagging this as nonsense was clearly POV. I think the moment has passed now but I doubt the matter is closed, there is still fighting going on at the article talk. Would be nice to have another set of eyes on it. Mfield (talk) 22:54, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

And yet again today: 86.162.70.84 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log), breaking the 48 hour block to vote on the AfD with a long tirade attacking the article creator and posted other commentson talk pages canvassing for Pakistani users to vote for its deletion. Reverted all comments, blocked for 1 week. Left a message explaining that the editor needs to wait out the original 48 hour block and return to editing without the personal attacks or the blocks are going to get longer and longer. Mfield (talk) 15:07, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

I have also posted a explanatory message on the AfD to hopefully catch the sock if he tries to repost the attcks before his block ends in 24 hours.I am going to be real world busy all week so if some others could watch Misplaced Pages:Articles_for_deletion/Islamic_Extremism_among_British_Pakistanis and make sure it stays free of personal attacks and soapboxing that would be helpful. If the IP sock continues to post attacks perhaps it should be semi protected since he is on his 5th IP in 24 hours already and they from different ranges. Mfield (talk) 15:25, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Users continually re-inserting LINKVIO links

At We Don't Wanna Put In, there are users continually re-inserting WP:LINKVIO links into the article. . I left a warning on the talk page at Talk:We Don't Wanna Put In, advising people that these are linkvios, yet they have been re-inserted; first by an IP user and then by a user who has previously re-inserted the links twice. I have asked for lyricstranslations.com to be added to the blacklist at MediaWiki_talk:Spam-blacklist#lyricstranslations.com due to the re-insertion of the links by the IP user, but the re-insertion by an established user is just not on. I think I have made it quite clear why these links have been removed, and why they should not be re-inserted, and it's unacceptable that users continue to re-insert them, even after being advised why they have been removed. Admin presence is requested here. --Russavia 07:38, 15 March 2009 (UTC) I have also alerted the latest registered user to reinsert the links on his talk page at User_talk:Hapsala#Admin_intervention_has_been_requested. --Russavia 07:48, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Did you try to have a discussion with any of these users on their own talk page? From what I can tell, you haven't. -- Darth Mike  (join the dark side) 13:29, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

From what I can tell, he has: . It seems, that User:Hapsala has now reinserted the WP:LINKVIO material for the fourth time, all the warnings given: Offliner (talk) 13:50, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Indeed, and it would be likwise helpful if you could provide any proof, or substantial indication, supporting your assumtion about copyright violation in this case. --Hapsala (talk) 15:06, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

The "discussion" was a notice of this AN/I report, not an attempt to resolve the dispute before that. We should generally request that editors attempt to resolve disputes directly before coming here. This is not a claim that there were not such attempts before, but only that this was not shown here, nor is this any claim of the propriety or impropriety of the link insertion itself. --Abd (talk) 15:02, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Your diff is the equivalent of standing in front of your neighbour's house and yelling "I'll sue you bastards!". It's definitely no attempt to discuss. Διγουρεν_{Εμπρος!} 15:51, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

I am not entirely sure the linked Youtube videos are copyright violations. The uploader seems to specialise on this type of video, and recently Youtube has been used by some copyright owners to promote their material, e.g. the Monty Pythons or Sesame Street.

I have not seen, here specific allegations of WP:LINKVIO (i.e., why? what specific problem?). Copyright law effectively prohibits knowingly linking to a copyright violation; there seems to be some difference of opinion on "assumption" of copyright violation as far as Misplaced Pages is concerned. (Is "proof" of compliance needed? What kind of proof is sufficient?) Clearly, however, we should not link to a site which, more than exceptionally, contains copyright violations, nor to any known copyvio page. Before proceeding with this, and especially with blacklisting, consensus should be found that it is violation, or that the violation is clear such that the legal situation applies. Until then,, this is an ordinary content dispute and should be resolved as such. Simply giving warnings, if they were no more specific than this, does not cut the mustard. --Abd (talk) 14:53, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, but there's only so far an ignorance defense can protect a site. When something is brought to our attention, good faith defense whenit comes to a lawsuit is to treat such claims as serious and to perform due diligence into investigating them. Just assuming that any claim of copyright violation must be wrong and insisting some iron clad proof -- especially in what appear to be bloody obvious cases -- is just the equivalent of sticking your finger in your ears and hoping it goes away, which is not a sound legal response to complaints. DreamGuy (talk) 16:03, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Looking at the nominator's tireless lovefest at the page of Vladimir Putin, it's obvious that the real reason for this complaint is the belief that the lyrics are not lovely enough, and the LINKVIO alphabetsoup is merely a pretext. Dismiss with prejudice, as Misplaced Pages is not censored. Διγουρεν_{Εμπρος!} 15:17, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Vladimir Putin is just one example of how Russavia and Offliner are working notably closely together... --Hapsala (talk) 15:24, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Can I ask WTF the Putin article has to do with it? Just because I dare protect the article against people who wish to make "grotesque" articles? Listen Digwuren, you are so far off base with your nonsense, that I see that a link to eurovision-georgia.ge has been provided on the article. As this is an official site, and content on it would be licenced, or permitted, I have no problem with this link. Your lack of assumption of good faith in this matter just makes you look drongoistic. --Russavia 00:22, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

OK, this seems pretty straightforward:

• Lyrics sites, unless they are the official site of the band of the label are songs so old the are out of copyright (ancient folk ballads), are clear copyright violations. This has been demonstrated over and over and over again. Between being lyrics of an entire song instead of snippets and not having any sort of educational discussion etc., it's just a sraight forward infringement. The one being added is clearly a violation, and thus cannot be linked to.
• The video on YouTube is not necessarily a copyright violation, as the uploader maybe somehow has the rights, but it seems extrmely doubtful, and the assumption on YouTube links from the massive amount of copyright violations there should always be that it's a violation unless demonstrated otherwise. On top of that we don't normally link to YouTube. Both of these issues have been extensively discussed on the talk pages of the policies in question, and recently at that.
• The BBC news link, however, that I saw in one of the edits being complained about, is perfectly fine.

The alleged political motivations of the poster aren't important to determining whether his claims of infringement are correct. He may or may not be biased, but two of these three links quite spectacularly fail our very clear rules. DreamGuy (talk) 16:03, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure about translations. The actual lyrics aren't on the site, these are translations into English, and I don't know copyright law or policy on that point. I've advised the editor who was adding the links to avoid edit warring and also allegations of bias, they are irrelevant, in fact, content and content policy are what may control here. "Official band site" certainly establishes copyright legitimacy, but it does not follow that "other site" is then necessarily violating copyright, and the matter may be examined specifically, and should. It's clear, as well, that YouTube pages may be linked to under some conditions. Discussion is required, which is why AN/I is the wrong place to try to deal with this. AN/I is for administrator intervention, which should generally be avoided when it's a content dispute. On the other hand, alleged copyvio is indeed grounds to keep the link out unless consensus for inclusion can be found. That's what's missing here: adequate discussion and use of DR procedure. --Abd (talk) 16:18, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

No comment of the rest of this, but US law is pretty clear that a translation of a copyrighted work is a derivative work. Unless it's clear that the lyrics on that are authorized by the original copyright holder, we shouldn't link to it.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Gavia immer (talk • contribs)

I would agree that the discussion doesn't belong here. Discussing these kinds of rules on article talk page is also usually a waste, as the people actively following a page are usually unfamiliar with our rules and laws. I recommend the people who are still confused check out WP:EL and raise any questions they have on that talk page. DreamGuy (talk) 17:05, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

massive disruption

New editor Telepatty900 (talk · contribs) is on a rampage, making a large number of dubious (but not obviously vandal) edits to medical articles at a rapid rate, without edit summaries, and failing to respond to talk page notices. It seems that a block might be the only way to get his attention. Looie496 (talk) 19:32, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

I am considering a short-term block, but I need to examine the diffs. Graham Colm 20:08, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

I have examined the diffs - I am professionally qualified to assess them - and have blocked 72 hours. --Anthony.bradbury 20:18, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) - Another admin (thanks Anthony) has just come to the same decision that I was about to implement. Graham. Graham Colm 20:23, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

I wouldn't call the user's edits a rampage nor massive disruption, and certainly not vandalism. I checked @all of them and all that I checked clearly are good faith edits. Some are improvements; some are not, but I can see the user was trying to improve the article. As for lack of response, is a new user supposed to know that a response is expected? This user made only one edit (19:13) after the level 3 warning by Nubiatech (19:08), and before the ANI notice by Looie496 (19:34). A 3-day block seems excessive, and I am disturbed by the blocking admin's ad hominem remarks. I hope some admin reading this will choose to unblock the user. --Una Smith (talk) 01:36, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

In my opinion the blocking admin's remarks were rather restrained. There are only two possibilities: this editor is either a vandal or else very misguided. The blocking admin assumed the latter, and made an effort to get that message across to the editor (who still has not given any response whatsoever). Sometimes it is more important to be clear than to try to save somebody's self-esteem. Looie496 (talk) 06:43, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

I agree, good block - while the edits possibly were made in good faith; this situation perfectly demonstrates the concept of a "preventative" block - well-intentioned or not, these were contentious and often dubious edits, marked as minor, by a user that was refusing to discuss them. A block is the best, and only, way to get them to stop doing it until they discuss it. If the user agrees to slow down or justifies his edits sufficiently there is no problem with removing the bock - but I certainly agree that one was warranted. ~ mazca 09:06, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

User Jersay again

In spite of repeated warnings 1, and a block 2, Jersay continues to revert sourced and notable information from List of terrorist incidents, 2009. He's been given many warnings in the past week, yet User talk:Jersay continues to edit in the same manner. It is becoming literally impossible to add additions to the article when he reverts everything, revert 1, 2, 3. I included the IP because that user is editing the same articles Jersay frequents so I just assumed. Wikifan12345 (talk) 21:15, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

There is only the one edit since the block expired, so this is pretty much the same problem revisited since the last complaint. However, I would comment also that in the 250+ edits since the beginning of the year exactly zero are to any page outside of article space; the only way this editor is interacting is in infrequent edit summaries and their reverts/edits. If the earlier patterns of ignoring pleas for discussion and making edits against consensus continues then I would support an indef block for as long as they are unwilling to discuss concerns. LessHeard vanU (talk) 22:18, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

He refuses to respond to discuss edits and rarely leaves edit summaries. Jersay removed a source believing it to be an act of "sectarian violence" rather than terrorism. The source explicitly refers to the act as terrorism. He continues to edit but under an IP rather than user a name: 1. I'm almost 100% certain it is him. Wikifan12345 (talk) 22:30, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, it's definitely him. He has removed this edit twice already: 1. Please do something about this. Wikifan12345 (talk) 22:32, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

He continues to remove cited content: 1 without a summary or any explanation whatsoever. Wikifan12345 (talk) 22:40, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Noroton

Noroton (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), blocked 1 week last fall, and then three, for incivilities, edit warring, threats, etc. on Barack Obama and Weathermen-related articles, vowed to devote himself to "stopping" me, and harassing me and other editors claiming an "ongoing conflict", "harassment", etc.. Has now reappeared to badmouth me in a WP:BLP/N discussion of the same Bill Ayers and related articles that got him in trouble in the first place: a drive-by accusation of "hypocrisy", "politicking for a cause", purports to expose "how Wikidemon operates, regardless of consensus... Misplaced Pages policy can see him at work", "continued obstinancy", "I've never seen Wikidemon or his allies provide one", etc. In the last AN/I report over this here an administrator commented "This type of continued @#$^ is simply unacceptable" and "Any further harassment from this account will result in a block". There was further harassment, and he was blocked. He's harassing yet again. Can we please do something? Thanks, Wikidemon (talk) 21:32, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Note - I am going to collapse his personal attacks on me at WP:BLP/N. I would normally let harassment slide but he's trying through his personal attacks to derail an important discussion on a BLP violation and three edit protected articles.Wikidemon (talk) 21:35, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

I said nothing untrue and provided links to past discussions related to the same topic or on the same topic, then mentioned, in passing, that Wikidemon has not answered the other side's points in past discussions and was not doing so in this discussion; that Wikidemon would not accept consensus in the past (and therefore may not in the future); and that unending partisanship is no way to treat other editors. This is how Wikidemon, in the midst of complaining about me, talks about others in the same discussion: Noroton was a long-term tendentious editor trying to disparage Barack Obama last year ... ''Repeating poorly founded murder allegations certainly causes harm, and the entire point is to cause harm - to Obama, by bashing Ayers again.

This is how Wikidemon deals with others: He collapsed everything I said in certain comments whether or not it all of the sentences mentioned him. Interestingly, that removed from view my arguments about the topic at hand. This is underhanded behavior. Why doesn't someone who is not involved review the collapsed matter and decide what should be collapsed and what shouldn't. Preferrably not some editor who's partisan.

I've already posted in the BLP discussion that I am done commenting on Wikidemon. I've said what I have to say. I assume that's why he's posting here at this point, because without further comments from me his accusations here will look increasingly ludicrous. And who's trying to "derail a discussion" if my comments not involving Wikidemon are being collapsed? -- Noroton (talk) 22:20, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

From a review of the previous ANI and the BLP/N discussion I see exactly the same problem arising; that reliable sources reporting a non reliable sourced comment is being used to certify the comment - in much the same way that newspapers of record publishing stories of some eccentrics theory that the world is flat might be suggested as indicating that reputable sources consider the world as being flat. This is exactly the same discussion as before, and last time it was reviewed it was considered that Noroton was "tendatious" in his pursuit of it. It appears that nothing has changed, including the targeting of the other editor(s) rather than the substance. LessHeard vanU (talk) 22:31, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Your comments on the content disagreement are inaccurate and belong on the BLP/N page where the discussion is taking place, and where I'd be happy to respond to them. (Briefly, when the accuser publishes a book in 1977 and the accusations from his U.S. Senate testimony are reported in another book by someone else in 2008, neither published by fringe groups, we have editors and lawyers involved and something different from "look what the fringe groups are saying"; we have news reports that relied on law enforcement sources as well). You also misrepresented the nature of my comments which were almost entirely about the issue and addressed Wikidemon as an aside. -- Noroton (talk) 23:16, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Noroton-Wikidemon break 1

Both editors really need to do a better job of observing WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA. At the BLPN board, Wikidemon had a problem with WP:AGF with other editors, and Noroton needlessly commented on Wikidemon's alleged motives. The BLPN discussion is a mess that isn't going to resolve anything, so both editors might want to disengage from it. On the underlying content dispute, it's mysterious to me why a plausible and reliably sourced allegation that Ayers was behind a fatal bombing has been scrubbed from the William Ayers article; BLP sure doesn't demand that result. THF (talk) 22:35, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Umh. You might want to consider this very first edit of Noroton as the starter.--The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 22:52, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

(ecX2). There is no "both" editors issue here, and I have no issues with AGF or civility. I am the one keeping the peace, and responding here to hostile personal nonsense from a rogue editor. The substantive question of the BLP violation we can handle elsewhere as long as people don't try to revert war it back into the various articles now that edit protection has expired. On the behavioral issue, Noroton seems to have a vendetta against me and does not seem to have taken his behavioral blocks to heart. If he truly refrains from attacking me again then fine, although if he is gearing up to restart his disruptive ways on Obama and Weathermen articles that is a problem to deal with. He is, and should be noted as, a long-term problem editor on these articles. I'm not adverse to giving Noroton one last chance to stay out of trouble - he is a smart, capable editor and good writer when he is not going rogue on us. Wikidemon (talk) 22:40, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Why is it that Wikidemon can't comment on me without attacking me (rogue editor)? Why is it that Wikidemon's version of "keeping the peace" is removing my entire comments, both sentences that mention him and sentences that have nothing to do with him? THF has a point. I'll refrain from commenting on Wikidemon. I've said my piece about Wikidemon's method of operating and I don't need to repeat it. -- Noroton (talk) 23:16, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Can you explain me why you're first edit (at BLPN) was in part commenting on "the" editor (as I pointed out above)?--The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 23:41, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

I thought Wikidemon's past behavior of avoiding substantive discussion in favor of obstinate disruption was worth mentioning to editors who were dealing with him on the same issues. Only after I commented that Wikidemon was not addressing the issues brought up by the other side in the BLP/N discussion, he started addressing more than his own strawman arguments. He blocked a 2/3 consensus that went against him at an RfC, and closed discussions when they weren't going his way. He's done that in the past on the issue addressed at the BLP discussion and similar issues related to the same articles. I'll find the difs and put them here. Now that I think about it, I could have informed those editors just as well by email, but informing them is a good idea. -- Noroton (talk) 00:14, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

After the RfC closed, on October 10, I attempted to implement it with an edit. First Grz (who's shown up for this discussion, see below) reverted against the consensus of the RfC. After I reverted, Wikidemon did the same with this dif (note the edit summary) I don't see that as an honest interpretation of Talk:Weatherman (organization)/Terrorism RfC#Noroton's proposal #3 -- for Weatherman (organization). I call that serious disruption. As I recall, it was at this point where I finally lost patience with Wikidemon and was intemperate in my language. As I recall, no admin gave a damn that the consensus had been subverted on changing the various articles. Not one admin gave a damn. It was reported at AN/I and simply ignored. The article remains to this day without the information that a consensus of editors approved for it. -- Noroton (talk) 00:40, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

"He blocked a 2/3 consensus that went against him at an RfC...". You point this out w/o pointing it out. Any link for that and any links for "He's done that in the past..."? "...informed those editors just as well by email...". Sounds like some kind of canvassing and "who are the editors you want(ed) to inform??? Please explain as I always listened to you before posting and/or making up my mind. Thanks, --The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 00:32, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

As I said, I was looking for the diffs. I just posted a couple at 00:40 just above. Here's one example of where the discussion was going against Wikidemon on the Weatherman talk page, and his response was to close the discussion, charging that it was becoming "too uncivil to be productive". Please look at the discussion and decide for yourself whether or not it was uncivil at all. As I recall, this matter went to AN/I, Wikidemon received no support there, then he started the Terrorism RfC. The same Terrorism RfC that resulted in consensus that Wikidemon then blocked (see links at 00:40 post, above). Now, it appears I distracted the discussion at BLP/N more than helped it by referring to all of this over there, but at least I was telling the truth, as these diffs show (similar diffs can be found, I think on the Ayers and Dohrn talk pages). -- Noroton (talk) 01:34, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

From this edit : "...but not give in to what look like delaying tactics...". In the middle of the election and you (Noroton) forgot that there is no dead line at WP.--The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 02:04, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Oh, I'm more than happy to review how Wikidemon was stalling in that discussion. He essentially had stopped raising points relevant to the matter at hand and raised issues outside the scope of the talk page. Keep in mind, it was a 3:1 consensus, with him on the short end. The discussion started Aug 29, Wikidemon participated until 16:21 Aug 30, I waited for him to respond to comments I'd made directed toward him, and waited and waited three days, until I made another proposal incorporating some of his objections on 16:10 Sept 2. Twenty minutes later, he responded with a suggestion that sounded more like playing power politics than attempting to get information into Misplaced Pages to serve the readers. Please read it:

I do not support the introduction of a section discussing the Weathermen as terrorists unless we agree that: (1) we do not officially endorse the characterization of Weathermen as terrorists, and (2) this is not used to shoehorn discussion of terrorism or classification as terrorists into the Ayers, Dohrn, Obama-Ayers, or other related articles. Although a section along this line may be okay I think there is somewhat too much weight devoted to the subject, and it relies fairly heavily on evocative quotes by sources of limited reliability. I am leery of participating further in this discussion given that it so recently broke down (so as to keep this page calm I will reservfe discussion of that to the article probation page). Until and unless we can have normal editing here I remain opposed.Wikidemon (talk) 16:30, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

The incivility he referred to was sparked by his unprovoked 04:33 Aug 29 statement This is part of Noroton's long-running WP:BATTLE to make Misplaced Pages mirror the current language of the political partisans who link Ayers and Dohrn to Barack Obama. (he later redacted this to replace "Noroton's" with "a"). The discussion history clearly shows we'd gotten past that and actually made some progress on language acceptable to all of us when Wikidemon took a break from the discussion. His comment on returning, quoted in full above, was just bizarre in stating until and unless we can have normal editing here I remain opposed. Now please read the weird turn the discussion took when I responded to the 16:30 comment above, rejecting his conditions:

Please limit discussion to the topic of this article. This is not an Obama-related article, even broadly construed; nor will you ever convince a consensus of uninvolved admins that it is. Your "using this as a shoehorn" is itself trying to shoehorn concerns onto this page that simply don't belong here. The topic is important to this subject quite independently of anything to do with Obama. This discussion should proceed normally. We have waited long enough for you to respond to previous concerns. Your actions have amounted to delaying this matter. There are no BLP concerns whatever with well-sourced material and NPOV concerns will have to be elaborated. This proposal appears to me to reflect what the sources say about this topic. You would need to make a good case for our acting here any differently than we would act in building any other article. -- Noroton (talk) 17:42, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, there is no discussion at this time - you killed it. Now stop please. You need to step away from this subject, at least for a while. Wikidemon (talk 17:50, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Delay for days, come back with strange conditions for his approval and announce he was shutting down the discussion (and then he unilaterally closed it with a box ). I don't know what to make of it other than as a delaying tactic or some kind of politicking that isn't in the best interest of Misplaced Pages's readers. Three of us were in agreement and only he was opposed. He edit warred a bit when we added the information to the page, then went to AN/I, then did a smart thing by starting the RfC. Where he lost, 2:1. And then he, along with Grz, edit warred on whether to impliment the RfC consensus. You should see the tons of evidence I hauled into that RfC and the tens of hours of work I put in researching and writing proposals. All so that in the end he would refuse to accept the consensus and edit war. That was when I blew my top and eventually got blocked. Tell me, TMC-k, does that 16:30 Sept 2 comment by Wikidemon make you feel more or less confident that he's here to serve the readers or serve Obama? Is information to go into or out of articles based on what's best for the readers of that article or based on horse trading among editors to get some kind of political edge? Personally, I'd rather walk away from a discussion with none of my proposals approved rather than horse trade in a way that's not in the best interests of the readers. Because I'm not here to get an edge for my "side" but to present, as best I can figure it out, the fairest description of the article's subject as I can get. I don't see how the horse trading in Wikidemon's 16:30 Sept 2 post can't be attractive to people interested in educating, only, it seems to me, politicking. That's not supposed to be what we're about. If you look at the RfC, the Archived Weatherman page and now the BL/P discussion, you see me presenting research to convince people, not horse trades to keep information from readers. -- Noroton (talk) 04:07, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Again misleading Noroton. The RfC was clearly no consensus, which you edit-warred against. Grsz 01:39, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Point of order: how can you edit war against a lack of consensus? Sceptre 02:51, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

My bad, he edit-warred on the article claiming it was consensus. Grsz 03:28, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

I made an offer to Wikidemon that we hand over the decision on whether the RfC had achieved consensus to someone -- I suggested NewYorkBrad or FT2 -- who was uninvolved to judge. NYBrad even said on his talk page that he was open to doing that, but Wikidemon refused. The matter was brought to this page and completely ignored. I got so upset at that point that I was incapable of discussing this calmly, and I haven't been able to discuss it this calmly until now. -- Noroton (talk) 04:07, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

I am not the subject of this report, so let's not allow a problem editor to twist it that way. An administrative complaint is by definition an assertion of bad faith and accusation of an editor. It violates policy only if unfounded. When founded, complaints about the behavior of other editors are one of the precise subjects of this administrative page. No doubt about it, Noroton has gone south on us again and if he continues we need to fix it. I collapsed the entire personal attacks as a less intrusive alternative to editing them to extract the small amount of legitimate commentary. Noroton, despite seeming to promise here that he would not make any further personal attacks on me, went ahead and re-introduced them by reverting me. Re-posting personal attacks is the same as making them again. There is no legitimate reason for Noroton to insist on disrupting the project in this way. Having reverted him a second time, I will not do so further, but please, folks, can we please get him off my back? If Noroton wants to make his point without personal attacks he is welcome. If he wants to continue his vendetta or POV/BLPvio push, no. I'll be offline for a while, but I would really appreciate if we can take a no-nonsense approach in putting an end to this. Thanks, Wikidemon (talk) 23:27, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

At BLPN, you've attacked every single editor who has disagreed with you, not just Noroton. THF (talk) 23:54, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Dismantling and debunking the poorly-constructed, POV-tinged arguments of others is not an "attack", no. Also, regarding an earlier statement, if you think that "BLP sure doesn't demand that result", "that" being the removal of one person's accusation of another of murder without proof or without charged ever having been filed, then I'd have to say that you really do not understand the Misplaced Pages's BLP policy. No offense. Tarc (talk) 00:04, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Assuming bad faith, as Wikidemon did in accusing those of wanting to add reliably-sourced information of trying "to cause harm to Obama" (14:19 15 March), is not acceptable. I'm not going to relitigate here, but your understanding of BLP is incorrect--and if you really believe that that is the BLP standard, I look forward to you edit-warring to remove the allegations of cocaine use and insider trading from the George W. Bush article. THF (talk) 00:16, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Wikidemon might sees it more as trying to harm Obama; I see it as a coatrack that harms in a libel way the individuals at the article(s) like Ayers' and that's where we have to focus on. As for W. Bush: What does it have to do with Ayers'?--The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 00:56, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

It has to do with BLP. The argument is that a reliably sourced news story about a pipe-bombing being attributed to Ayers can't be included because there have been no charges filed against him for this particular pipe-bombing, though he admits being involved in other pipe-bombings. Yet that BLP standard is not applied in a featured article. The claim of "libel," quite frankly, is ludicrous: the San Francisco Chronicle faces zero legal risk for its reporting of the story, and so would we. THF (talk) 01:01, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Two wrongs don't make it right. If there are problems at an article don't mirror them on another one.--The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 01:40, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Friendly suggestion: Will everyone please take BLP discussions to the BLP page and leave this discussion to just how naughty certain editors are? Thanks. -- Noroton (talk) 01:34, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

You don't like it here? Here it is about you - over there it is about Ayers. Different issues I might think (and I don't think I'm naughty).--The Magnificent Clean-keeper (talk) 02:36, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

I said at BLP/N: Wikidemon, your previous statements and actions in this matter look, to me, more like politicking for a cause rather than helping Misplaced Pages present the closest version to the truth that we can. See how this compares with Wikidemon's Our standard for accusing someone of murder here in the encyclopedia isn't "not outlandish". BLP rests on two pillars: avoiding committing libel, and avoiding harm to living people. Repeating poorly founded murder allegations certainly causes harm, and the entire point is to cause harm - to Obama, by bashing Ayers again. (14:19 March 15). Despite Wikidemon's assertions that he hasn't done anything wrong at all, he and I both made similar statements, and I think they both either went up to the line or went over the line: commenting on others' motives without proof, and in the wrong place, even if each of us hedged in various ways. My point that Wikidemon doesn't respect consensus when it goes against him has been proven by the diffs I've cited here. But I made my point in the wrong place, so I'll withdraw all of that from the BLP/N page. If I have anything to say about Wikidemon's conduct in the future, I'll say it on the appropriate pages and accompany it with plenty of diffs. -- Noroton (talk) 01:34, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

I was not attacking anyone's motives in discussion, and beyond that I won't dignify tit-for-tat nonsense accusation with a response. My edits are not at issue and have never been at issue. Noroton has been a long-term problem on these pages and gone through all the warnings and escalating blocks for this behavior, the last being three weeks. He started it again with a sneak attack while we were dealing with a different tendentious editor and BLP problem. It is onerous to have to deal with this kind of attack, and it should not be the price of editing articles here. Either he's going to desist or not.Wikidemon (talk) 02:48, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

User:Levine2112 yet again

• Levine2112 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

This user was previously warned by Elonka (who is on a wikibreak) and so he chose to stay away from chiropractic-related subjects for two weeks. That pause has run out, but he is back to his usual agenda, an openly declared one of protecting the reputation of chiropractic, IOW whitewashing the subject wherever it's mentioned. He is deleting well-documented and uncontroversial facts based on false arguments. Please take a look at his recent edits, most notably these:

• Applied Kinesiology (AK) -- Deletion of chiropractic mention in LEAD. (AK is a pseudoscience.)
• List of topics characterized as pseudoscience -- Similar deletion of chiropractic mention in the AK section of the List

He is hiding the fact that Applied Kinesiology, a pseudoscientific method created by a chiropractor, widely used by chiropractors (and a very few other flakey professionals who are into alternative medicine), is indeed a popular chiropractic method. That's simply whitewashing and unwikipedian. There is a discussion thread here.

The only reason I bring this here is that this situation has occurred many times before over the last four years, sometimes with months-long disruption occupying a lot of editors' time on this matter. I hope we can avoid that. Please give him a warning to stop such whitewashing of very obvious and uncontroversial facts. The edits he deleted were very neutral. OTOH, a warning may be too soft, since his previous warning and pause didn't seem to work. Maybe a topic ban from the whole subject of chiropractic, no matter where it appears. -- Fyslee (talk) 21:33, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

I would not assume without references how widely it is used by mainstream chiropractic. This is a content dispute that could use some sourcing. DGG (talk) 22:36, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

That makes sense. The documentation is provided in the AK article, and an actual diagram is provided here at the left. It is the tenth most used chiropractic technique, used by more than a third of chiropractors. -- Fyslee (talk) 22:53, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

This seems to me to be a content dispute. I don't see any evidence of behaviour problems. Please carry out the content dispute on the article talk pages, not here. (involved editor) ☺Coppertwig (talk) 23:06, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

I am doing so there. The behavioral problems are because this is yet another repetition of the same conflict on the same subject we have had with him many times before during the last four years. If we can settle this at the article level I'll be satisfied, and I see that other editors are already doing that. 00:08, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Why did the chiropractic advocate Levine2112 make this edit. Because he was intentionally trying to prevent AK from becoming a subsection of chiropractic. I made this edit to make it a subsection. It was obvious Levine2112 was trying to prevent improvements to the article. There was a new discussion started about moving AK to make it a subsection of chiropractic. But is became clear Levine2112 was against it. QuackGuru (talk) 18:21, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Applied Kinesiology (AK) is a chiropractic diagnostic method using manual muscle-strength testing for medical diagnosis and a subsequent determination of prescribed therapy. According to followers of the theory, it gives feedback on the functional status of the body. While it is primarily used by chiropractors, it is now also used by a number of other practitioners.

The above is the current lead of the AK article. Levine2112 made this edit because he was trying to prevent AK from being a subsection of chiropractic at the List of topics characterized as pseudoscience article. QuackGuru (talk) 18:57, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Talk:Citizendium

See Talk:Citizendium#Misplaced Pages vs Citizendium. I believe the question is entirely inappropriate for a Misplaced Pages talk page, as it is not about improving the article. I and another editor have removed it several times. However, the originator of the question and another editor have restored it, and the discussion now includes material of some relevance to the article. I believe the original question still needs to be removed, but it's difficult to do so while leaving context for the followup.-gadfium 22:44, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

There is a content dispute at the Citizendium article. I think a compromise has been reached. Another suggestion is "Image of Misplaced Pages". I think the compromise is NPOV. QuackGuru (talk) 22:59, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

I am not concerned with the content dispute, but with the talk page question which effectively asks for a pledge of loyalty to Misplaced Pages.-gadfium 23:08, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

The entire thread is directly related to the content dispute. Is there any objection to the compromise. No specific reason has been given to deleting my comments on the talk page. QuackGuru (talk) 23:12, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

I would delete it as Misplaced Pages is not a forum. That section does not help improve the article in any way. But I shall wait and see what the consensus is here. -- Darth Mike  23:31, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Yes. Misplaced Pages is not a forum. Delete. -- Levine2112 23:35, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Your description is misleading. AdirondackMan's original comment was made on 18:13, 14 March 2009, even before your edit started that content dispute on 19:08, 14 March 2009; therefore AdirondackMan's comment was independent of that dispute. It was removed per the talk page guidelines, before you restored it, adding your own comments and tried to imply a connection which wasn't there. It appears like you are trying to make a point by parading AdirondackMan's comment as evidence that your adversaries in that content dispute make non-neutral edits, although that is a non-sequitur since AdirondackMan is not among them.

Regards, HaeB (talk) 23:40, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

The original "loyalty" post was inappropriate forumish, and the subsequent implication that my own "loyalty" (aka bias) was colouring my edits was perhaps even less appropriate than that. But, somehow, the whole episode appears to have led to article-improving suggestions and to article improvements, and it has given context to appropriate action and discussion. I don't like the way it started, but I'd probably let it be. Cosmic Latte (talk) 23:43, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

I've changed "inappropriate" to "forumish" because, on second thought, Misplaced Pages articles are commonly put up for deletion as "POV forks," so why can't people voice objection to a project that is essentially a POV fork of Misplaced Pages itself? But alas, that issue is out of Misplaced Pages's hands, so such objection will have limited practical benefit on here. Cosmic Latte (talk) 13:31, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

←This POV "POINT" has been pushed before. We have Criticism of Misplaced Pages already, and if someone wants to bash Misplaced Pages - take it to the wiki forum or IRC. Being an editor (actually we're called authors on Citizendium), of both places, I see no need to bash one site or the other - let each stand on their strengths, or fall from their weaknesses. They both serve a purpose, there is no need for any perceived "war of the encyclopedias". While the original post is forumish, I do understand the question - I've wondered it myself why editors that want to bash Misplaced Pages bother coming here in the first place. It is agreed that we must present a neutral point of view; but..., canvassing the Sanger, Wales, Misplaced Pages, and Citizendium articles in an attempt to push a "Misplaced Pages isn't as good as Citizendium" POV is simply unacceptable. Talk about biting the hand that feeds you .... wow. — Ched ~ /_© 02:55, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

• As to the specific "I wish to pose a question to everyone here. Who here is loyal to Misplaced Pages? Who would leave this for Citizendium. Despite their public words, it's obvious Mr. Sanger wants Citizendium to destroy Misplaced Pages. So I ask all who read this to tell me, who here is loyal to this project? I know I am." post - while admirable in intent, it is forumish, is not centered on the article itself, and User:gadfium was correct in deleting it. It would be fine for a user page, or user talk page - but not the article itself. I also question the "Mr. Sanger wants Citizendium to destroy Misplaced Pages" - that is highly doubtful, and I'd like to seem some sort of reference to back that up. While Sanger believes his site will eventually provide a more stable and accurate source of information, I'm aware of no such desire to destroy Misplaced Pages. I think that some people perceive a dislike between Wales and Sanger that simply does not exist - even Jimbo said recently that Sanger didn't get the credit he deserved. This simply appears to be building up a war that does not exist. — Ched ~ /_© 03:15, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

My description of the content dispute is honest. AdirondackMan's original comment directly led me to improving the article. My edit was made after I read AdirondackMan's comment. I archived all the older threads and resolved disputes. QuackGuru (talk) 08:35, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

I was not, and would not, ever imply that an editor was not being WP:Honest, (without some extreme evidence of an outright attempt to deceive), I was merely stating the obvious fact that a lot of the Misplaced Pages/Citizendium topics contain a lot of POV pushing. Also, I was addressing the particular post on the talk page of Citizendium which was a forum post. I was not even addressing content dispute, or the 3RR that was touched. Nothing more ... Nothing less. — Ched ~ /_© 17:31, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

AIV backlog

AIV is currently backlogged, can someone please look into it. The Cool Kat (talk) 22:51, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Sorted. — neuro 04:53, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Question re: userpages of blocked/banned users

Is it a common/acceptable practice for admins to allow a U1 (user-requested) deletion of the user and/or user talk pages when the user is de facto banned from WP? I ask because of

I don't think there is any kind of rule about this, it probably just comes down to an admins personal preference. I personally believe it should have been kept, I always decline those requests when I come across them--Jac16888 01:41, 16 March 2009 (UTC)re

The purpose of blocked/banned templates is to assist the project. For example, if the banned user is actively socking and causing trouble, it may be important for administrators and other editors who have to deal with the disruption to know the status of the various accounts. On the other hand, when a banned or long-term blocked user accepts that he or she must leave the project, it sometimes happens that his or her doing so is impaired or held up by arguments about what his or her userpage should say. This is unhelpful to everyone, and is particularly unjustifiable where the user has edited under, or is readily associated with, his or her real name. Again, the goal is to assist with administration of Misplaced Pages, not to perpetuate embarrassment of the banned user, and administrators faced with these requests should keep this in mind. Newyorkbrad (talk) 01:44, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Whilst I agree with everything Newyorkbrad said above, it's worth reiterating that there was no request to delete the user talk page. Deletion of user talk pages are normally only done if the user understands the right to vanish. The page should have remained blank instead of deleted on this occasion, though that doesn't mean it should be restored. -- zzuuzz 02:14, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

• "As a blocked user...You are not allowed to remove block notices while the block is in effect. As you are blocked indefinitely, this means the messages must stay until someone unblocks you." - This isn't true, see WP:BLANKING. Since the user is simply blocked, not banned, I see nothing controversial about the deletion, in fact, had the proper block template been used it would've been put into CAT:TEMP to be deleted eventually anyway. –xeno (talk) 19:22, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Stevertigo/Obama topic ban

Requesting a topic ban on Stevertigo on Barack Obama, sub-articles, and discussion pages, broadly construed, for disruption and failing to assume good faith. After warning him several hours ago, he has continued to be disruptive on DRV regarding an Obama article, even to the point of admission:

This one also pissed me off: I was in the middle of writing a detailed point by point refutation of the deletion arguments. I understand how my opponents seriously hate my point-by-points though. I make them look stupid, and sometimes take some enjoyment in it.

— 01:46, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

This is blockable behaviour, but I think he'll continue to act up if he isn't put on probation. Thanks, Sceptre 03:19, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

And yes, I do realise the irony of me requesting an Obama topic ban when one has recently been requested on myself. Sceptre 03:29, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

And you did that with a template. That's like a slap in the face. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 05:58, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Oh my god, I templated someone! That makes their disruption forgiveable! Not. Sceptre 10:10, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Sceptre, whilst I do have limited sympathy, this report is at best a COI, and at worst pure trolling on your part. C.U.T.K.D 10:57, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Sure. Try to sanction someone for maybe trying to fix BLP problems, while allowing someone who is trying to violate BLP a carte blanche. Makes sense. Wait, it doesn't. Sceptre 11:31, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Sceptre, you're being much more disruptive on that DRV. Why make fourteen comments, many of which are repetitive? Your claim is that all criticism articles should be deleted, and the place to promote that claim is not on a DRV about a speedy deletion that should have been userfied. Stevertigo is arguably being a bit inappropriately sarcastic in the DRV, but that's a minor violation of WP:CIVIL that can be handled with a gentle reminder on the talk page. THF (talk) 12:01, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

It's not my fault that people just don't get NPOV. And I'm not having trouble talking to JoshuaZ; he's actually being reasonable. Sceptre 12:08, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

The place to raise NPOV policy is WT:NPOV, not a DRV; if you want to have a conversation with JoshuaZ, use e-mail or his talk-page, not the DRV. Your complaint is with the general understanding of NPOV (and you may well be right), not with the individual article. Make a proposal to rename all Criticism articles at WT:NPOV, point to it at VPP, and get consensus there. THF (talk) 12:18, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

NPOV violation+BLP=speedy deletion, and I'm trying to argue that the speedy deletion was correct because it violated NPOV (the BLP point is uncontestable). Sceptre 12:21, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

But put a CSD on Criticism of George W. Bush and see what happens. Again, your problem is with the policy, not with the individual article. CUTKD has good advice below. WP:COOL. THF (talk) 12:26, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Wow. Spending so long at AFD and DRV, you'd think most people around there know about WP:OSE. Guess not. Sceptre 13:23, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

The issue isn't WP:OSE. The issue is that you are discussing an encyclopedia-wide problem that affects hundreds of articles, and it won't be solved on a case-by-case basis, and it's disruptive to make fifteen comments pushing your policy interpretation on a single article instead of asking for a policy change. THF (talk) 13:56, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Sceptre, please calm down. Why don't you back off for a bit then return once you've cooled down. With any luck, others will listen to you then :) C.U.T.K.D 12:23, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

For the record, there's a discussion on the "crit of GW" page to merge it to a different title. Anyway, the editors on the Obama articles can't even choose a picture without an edit war, so there's a fair amount of need for a nice cup of tea. Or some valium. SDY (talk) 12:39, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Or thorazine, the babysitter's little helper. arimareiji (talk) 13:32, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Endorse for the collective social good of the project in these corners of it; certain individuals have been disruptively vocal and partisan of late. It's disruptive; it's unhelpful; it's inappropriate; it's importation in some cases of real-life politics by people with noted COI; it's time to shove it out the door with a foot up the proverbial arse; it's time for us to stop playing games and acting like it's not happening. rootology (C)(T) 13:38, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Oppose. I see no diffs suggesting that Stevertigo has been acting in a manner befitting a topic ban; the NPOV problems Misplaced Pages has will become far worse when these sanctions are being unevenly handed out simply because pro-Obama editors outnumber neutral editors. THF (talk) 13:56, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

The population of users by volume of perceived affiliation is irrevelant in anything we do, and is a reflection of where the bar for NPOV on any topic is at most. Republicans by literal volume are the population minority in the United States, so it's unsurprising that Misplaced Pages mirrors this. Christians outnumber Satanists, too. In the end it has nothing to do with whether one person should be banned or not from a topic and is an appeal to the minority. rootology (C)(T) 14:00, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

The reality is that liberal editors who POV-push are treated better than conservative editors that edit neutrally. That's why we have Barack Obama articles that have completely different BLP standards than the George W. Bush articles. The proposed topic ban here--made without a single diff--is pure harassment. THF (talk) 14:24, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Maybe you've forgotten the liberals and rumor-mongers who besieged the Sarah Palin article back in September, and were fairly successfully held back. Bush was in office for 8 years, so criticisms of his policies are abundant. As Obama's length of time in office grows, so will the criticisms. Keep in mind he's been there less than 2 months so far. What was the size of the Bush criticism page in March of 2001, or what would it have been if wikipedia existed? Not very large, I bet. The biggest problem then would have been to try to fend off the complaints that he "stole the election". Baseball Bugs carrots 14:56, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Maybe you've both forgotten that the point of Misplaced Pages is to shove our own POVs up our own behinds when we work here. Did you forget I was one of the major defenders of BLP on Sarah Palin? I can hardly be called a fan of the lady in ANY sense. rootology (C)(T) 15:04, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

I was a little busy to pay any attention to Misplaced Pages then, but for what it's worth, the Alaska Public Safety Commissioner dismissal article remains wildly unbalanced; you wouldn't know that Palin had been cleared of wrongdoing from reading the lead, and it violates BLP by falsely stating that Todd Palin did not honor a subpoena. The Sarah Palin article incorrectly implies that Sarah Palin was subpoenaed, and violates BLP by falsely stating that the subpoenaed witnesses did not honor their subpoenas. That's just from a quick eyeballing, but it's a consistent Misplaced Pages problem that if there's a mistake in shading on a well-trafficked article, it goes to the left. There's always going to be a blind spot when dealing with NPOV; that's why we need editors from both the left and right to look at articles, because they're going to notice things that their political opposites will not. THF (talk) 20:36, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Well, THF is getting a little off topic here, but I appreciate his ability to deal with the problem logically. Scpetre filed this ANI because I was sarcastic, not because I violated CIVIL - a policy I'm intimately familiar with btw. Sceptre likewise likes to cite NPOV as the binding policy with regard to criticism sections and articles altogether, and at the same time says that this is a holistic wiki-wide policy issue that he will deal with only on the Obama article and on no other. He's just a kid, and only one particular partisan in the dispute, so it would be unfair to single him out too much, but he was in the fourth grade when I first started editing here, and I'm fairly certain he doesn't quite have a grasp of our basic concept yet, let alone our policies. That said. He may find certain support in trying to deal with crit pages, though, and I encourage him to explore that. One, it will get him involved in meta/policy/process issues, and two, it will get him more familiar with our concepts. If anyone were to simply say that our policy pages need some work, I would not hesitate to agree with them. Its unfortuntate that his misusage of policy concepts is somewhat of an emulation of other such misusage. It's all too common, even among advanced editors, to claim certain issues are under the domain of certain policies and not others. This issue probably deserves an RFAR, as its highly controversial, deals with policy conflicts, POV issues, has been disruptive, has elements of cabal, and a few others probably. -Stevertigo 18:42, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

PS: Sceptre says:

1. "NPOV violation+BLP=speedy deletion, and I'm trying to argue that the speedy deletion was correct because it violated NPOV (the BLP point is uncontestable)."
2. "It's not my fault that people just don't get NPOV."

The first point is his strongest argument, and needs to be dealt with. But the problems with citing an "uncontestable" policy are numerous; 1) the article's designation as being in violation is in fact a judgment call, influenced by POV 2) the empowerment of POV editors with tools like speedy only serves to circumvent actual discussion and maybe the consensus that might follow. That's what happened here. The second point, that "its not fault people just don't get NPOV," coming from someone who just discovered Misplaced Pages a couple weeks ago, is not his strongest argument. -Stevertigo 18:50, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Requesting more admin eyes at Barack Obama

Without comment on the dispute above, it would be a very good idea to have more neutral admin attention at Barack Obama. Yesterday I went there for the first time to perform what would normally be a thoroughly uncontroversial edit: adding an existing featured picture to the page. Started with a suggestion at the talk page, just to be on the safe side. Surprisingly, that sparked a long debate and a small edit war. The atmosphere at that page is unusually tense. I'll be heading off to start an FPC for John McCain now; suggesting more administrative attention (preferably by people who don't care a whit about politics) would help to normalize the Obama article. Durova 21:01, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

What are people's thoughts towards creating a Barack Obama noticeboard? It's up on here a lot, despite the FAQ... Sceptre 21:50, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Might not be a bad idea. More helpful might be the usage of WP:OBT on the Obama talk page. -Stevertigo 23:09, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Got a Problem

I just got an email from the Volapük Misplaced Pages (vo.wikipedia.org). The problem is, the entire email is in Volapük (some weird kinda German but not lauguage, I didn't know exsisted). It also seems I have an account at the Volapük Misplaced Pages (never signed up for one). Is there anyway someone can translate this for me and figure out how I have an account on a Wiki I didn't know exsisted until just now? - NeutralHomer • Talk • March 16, 2009 @ 06:40

m:SUL, no? 69.212.19.124 (talk) 07:21, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

I do use a unified login, but I didn't know it created accounts for all Wikis. I thought it was just for Commons, Meta, stuff like that. My main concern is my personal email account was used in this.....that worries me. - NeutralHomer • Talk • March 16, 2009 @ 07:22

I got the same. Yes, SUL automatically creates an account for you there the moment you only open a page on that wiki while you're logged in on some other. The e-mail is just the automatic "notify me if someone posts to my talk page" feature. Don't know why, but somehow they seem to have that automatically activated by default for all new accounts. And the post you are being notified of is an automated welcome message from a bot. I doubt it's very clever of them to post bot welcome messages to automatic SUL account creations that have never even edited there, but then again, heck, no harm done. Fut.Perf. ☼ 07:29, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Got the same thing the other day from the Romanian Misplaced Pages. Freaked me out a little, but no harm done. arimareiji (talk) 13:34, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps it'd be worth looking into a way to turn off the receive e-mail feature for SUL-created accounts when the message is from a bot... —Anonymous Dissident 14:11, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Problem with Mitsube...

Please kindly check User_talk:Mitsube#Very_bad_editing_style.... Thanks. NazarK (talk) 12:42, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

The user is complaining about my removal of his unsourced editorializing at a variety of places. He has responded by posting on the talk pages of editors I have had disagreements with and now posts on my talk page that I should "feel a deserved resounding slap on his face." Is this not a violation of WP:CIVIL? Mitsube (talk) 16:11, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Mitsube gets credit for tolerating a whole thread of complaint on his user talk. Any issues about incivility should go to WP:WQA, NazarK should stop posting a complaint about Mitsube to multiple user pages unless he is willing to open an WP:RFC/U, and let him follow WP:Dispute resolution if he has content issues. Those interested may continue the discussion on Mitsube's Talk. EdJohnston (talk) 16:35, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

I do not have acute content issues with Mitsube at this moment. His edits I observed were harsh, but justified to sufficient extent by Misplaced Pages rules. I'm concerned about his pattern of editing being a threat for preservation of valuable, though not perfectly referenced and formatted info, entered by not very experienced users. As well as his style of 'wiping out' what others care to put in. The way he does it is intentionally painful and humiliating for specific editors he targets, though he is seemingly dealing with article content only and does so based on the Misplaced Pages rules. It may be personally injuring for many, in my opinion. Thank you, EdJohnson, your comments were helpful and informative. I'll restart this discussion in a more proper place once I have enough evidence and better command of Misplaced Pages Policies and dispute tools. NazarK (talk) 19:42, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Editor removing Arabic info and category links

User:Aquahsocker had been removing information about Arabic names for stars and constellations from some articles and also removing Arabic-looking category links that direct one to foreign language versions of WIkipedia articles on the same topic. I've reverted all the changes made by the account that didn't seem to have a real purpose. This may be nothing out of the ordinary, but somewhere in the back of my head it sounded like it might be something I saw discussed here before about a continuing problem editor. Just thought I'd bring it up just in case. If it doesn't sound familiar to anyone, then never mind and sorry for wasting your time. DreamGuy (talk) 13:53, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

A new user, doing a very specific and potentially objectionable activity, with the syllable "sock" in their name? While I do not have any personal recollection of a problem editor doing this particular thing, those three things together would certainly ring bells in my head too. ~ mazca 16:27, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Could be a typo: The name could have meant to be "Aquashocker". No comment on the rest. Protonk (talk) 17:56, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Shatt al-Arab again

I'm currently edit-warring at Shatt al-Arab (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch. The issue is our usual brand of toponymical irredentism (in this particular case, Iranian).

I'm edit-warring instead of limiting myself to discussing calmly in the article's talk page because in this particular article the latter option has proven time and again to be utterly pointless (see the archives): these people simply refuse to follow our naming conventions, instead using Misplaced Pages as a venue to promote their preferred terminology.

The relevant sections of the article's talk page are:

• Algiers Accord of 6 March 1975.
• It is Arvand Rood/Rud.

Anyone bored enough to take a look at this depressing issue ? Best, Ev (talk) 16:38, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

WP:CHECK request

I would like to request that the WP:CHECK checkuser tool be used to determine if user:Soidi and user:Defteri are sockpuppets of user:Gimmetrow. I would like to be able to treat each as a separate person but Soidi and Defteri emerged with instant Misplaced Pages knowledge to support Gimmetrow in a dispute that is now in mediation after months of discussion on the talk page of Roman Catholic Church. I understand that Misplaced Pages acknowledges some alternative accounts but does not allow sockpuppets to be used for voting or editwarring which is what is occurring in this case. Thanks. NancyHeise 17:47, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Sockpuppet investigations is thataway. Algebraist 17:50, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

And it's customary to notify editors of threads here concerning them by using the {{ANI-notice}} template. --Rodhullandemu 17:55, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for your help. NancyHeise 19:17, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

User:NYScholar

I seem to have become involved in an edit war with the above author who exhibits signs of WP:Ownnership of articles relating to Harold Pinter, Bibliography for Harold Pinter, The arts and politics amongst others. I and other editors (User:Wingspeed, User:BehnamFarid, User:Rodhullandemu, User:John, User:F_W_Nietzsche, User:Jasper33, User:Alai, User:SMcCandlish, User:Jayron32, User:Wrad, User:TJive, User:SlimVirgin, User:Florrie) have had occasion to comment that User:NYScholar's comments on article talk pages have an elitish, patronising and arrogant tone, frequently propounding the view that he/she is an expert and that others do not understand. The main cause of dispute has been the readability of articles which have been taken over by this editor. Good faith talk page comments have frequently been deleeted by ], and an ongoing RfC at Talk:Harold_Pinter#RfC:_Article_style was archived by User:NYScholar after two days, only reverted when I complained about this at Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_comment#Move_of_RfC:_Article_style_from_Talk:Harold_Pinter_to_Talk:Harold_Pinter.2Farchive7.

I freely admit that I have one one occasion revrted to abuse when confronted with this editor's inappropriate tone, for which I later apologised. I am concerned however that this editor's actions are contrary to policy of making Misplaced Pages accessible to all. Jezhotwells (talk) 18:31, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Viktor van Niekerk

I'm involved in a long-running dispute with User:Viktor van Niekerk regarding his ownership of the ten-string guitar article.

This was previously a soapbox of Viktor's, which he defended by personal attacks on anyone who tried to fix it. This went on for more than a year in fact, during which time a number of other editors just gave up. If newbies, typically they just left.

I have managed to make some progress, largely owing to a block another admin put on Viktor for incivility. However he is now back and has commenced a program of harassment in order to get his soapbox back. He is particularly aware of its high Google rating when compared to his own personal websites on the subject.

See my talk page, particularly User talk:Andrewa#General reply and User talk:Andrewa#Personal attacks, and some recent diffs from Viktor: .

I fear that this will just escallate until Viktor is eventually banned. Any help greatly appreciated. Andrewa (talk) 18:37, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

It looks like you haven't even used your admin powers since February, let alone "abused" them. (This information you dug up should be useful in solving the content dispute.) I see no personal attacks, personal vendettas, or whatever else Viktor alleges, as in this thread title: Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Classical_music#Objective_Expert_musician_needed_to_resolve:_Editor_abusing_his_admin_status_in_personal_vendetta.2C_supporting_misinformation. Viktor, if you are reading this, and I presume you are: please back off on the accusations, assume good faith, have a look at our conflict of interest and no original research policies. Thank you, Antandrus (talk) 20:51, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Just seconding what Antandrus says. Eusebeus (talk) 21:31, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Myusedupname's disruptive edits to Lebanon: 1948 Arab-Israeli War.

In these , , edits, User:Myusedupname changed the 1948 Arab-Israeli War section from three different well-researched, reasonably NPOV versions into blatantly POV material. (Those are just the three I found in the first two pages of history.)

Given that this comprises about 90% of the user's activity on Misplaced Pages, and s/he has only registered in the last few months, what steps should be taken?

Vonschlesien (talk) 18:45, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

I noticed that the user's talk page is empty. A quick glance at Talk:1948 Arab-Israeli War also turned up no discussion of the matter. Consider posting a message at either or both talk pages stating your concern. (Disclaimer: not an admin) KuyaBriBri 19:23, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Vandalism context

Found this at the help desk (). It is an old, ongoing one but it does give some information about some of their targets. The forum where this is taking place, and the thread, is here: dougweller (talk) 18:53, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Repeated copyright violation

(brought here at suggestion of Juliancolton after I reported this at WP:ANV)

User Einsteinbud (talk · contribs) has uploaded a slew of copyrighted images from airline websites and Airliners.net (upload log). Looking at his/her talk page right now (), he/she has had one image deleted as no copyright status identified, 2 images deleted as NPD, 3 images deleted at FfD for similar reasons, and another 4 NPD that I nominated today. He/she has also been warned about blanking files listed at FfD. I would consider the notices dated 1 March and 5 March to be sufficient warning to stop uploading copyrighted images, but the uploading of copyrighted images continued until 12 March. Most of these images allege that the files are public domain when in fact they are not (some such as AirDC.jpg even contained "AIRLINERS.NET" and a copyright tag plastered on it).

A secondary issue has been this user's redirecting pages instead of using the "move" function (Example, Move log). Some of these moves have been against naming conventions. I just coached/warned the user about this today, so I don't expect action on this part immediately. KuyaBriBri 19:03, 16 March 2009 (UTC) ; edited KuyaBriBri 19:11, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Concerning the image violations, I reapeatedly checked on swiss.com for copyright. As one user pointed out, at one point an admin explicitly pointed out to me that these images are protected. Till that point, I didn't realize. I believe that users should be given the benefit of doubt, since we are all humans, and mistakes can also happen out of good faith. Besides that, I still believe I was right to move the Brussels Airlines to brussels airlines. It is black on white that its official name is spelled in lower case. One needs to be really blind in order not to realize that. I deny having done anything wrong concerning the Brussels Airlines article. An article needs to have the real name, nothing else!

--Einsteinbud (talk) 19:29, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

See WP:ATTACK before accusing anyone of being blind, this is borderline perhaps but discuss the content, not the contributor. See Misplaced Pages:official names for some clarification of the policy with regard to the move, it seems to be addressing exactly the point you are making. Andrewa (talk) 19:44, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

I would like to let an admin comment on the image copyright issue. As for the page move, I specifically identified it on this board as a secondary issue; as such, I'm going to pretend that the statement of "One needs to be really blind..." is not a personal attack. I have replied at Talk:Brussels Airlines, as I want the focus of this discussion to be the image copyright incidents. KuyaBriBri 19:53, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Not an admin, but isn't this resolved? An admin has pointed out to the user that the images are copyrighted, and the user appears to accept that. I can't really add anything, except to point out that Misplaced Pages's servers are in the US, and that the US is a signatory to the Berne convention - "stuff" is copyrighted unless explicitly released from copyright. Cheers, This flag once was red_deeds 19:59, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

He does not seem to have been notified of the GFDL issues of "cut & paste" moves. I've given him notice of this, which can also constitute a copyright concern. --Moonriddengirl 00:19, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Redirects and policy...

Looks like I need some help on redirects and policy. Neither WP:Redirect nor a search on this board could help me much yet. The best I came up with was this. Let's say someone is blanking lots of pages, putting redirects there, but neither is discussing those redirects nor is merging the content to the targets. The result is, that the majority of Misplaced Pages users (not editors!) will not find the content anymore, if they ever knew it's there. Is this just WP:Bold or is it WP:VAN? What if those redirects are controversial and regularly reverted by different other editors? What if this one editor does not change anything after he's been told to stop and also has been warned several times? --Avant-garde a clue-hexaChord 19:15, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Please clarify your inquiry with specific examples. KuyaBriBri 19:18, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

I want to know policy and not denounce.--Avant-garde a clue-hexaChord 19:25, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Redirecting an article is generally thought of as a normal editorial action, albeit a fairly drastic one. The normal Bold, revert, discuss cycle applies: A good-faith user is welcome to redirect an article without discussion if they believe it would better serve the encyclopedia to do so. Equally, another user is welcome to revert that redirect if they disagree. At that point, however, a discussion needs to occur before any further redirecting gets done, otherwise it's simply an edit war. Obviously, the normal rules of common sense applies: someone who generally does nothing but redirect things with dubious reasons is likely to get called on that, and if they go against consensus then they're also potentially being disruptive. To be sure we would need to know the specific situation you're referring to, but in general it's best to consider redirecting as you would any other potentially-controversial edit: You may be bold and do it once, but discuss if there are any disagreements, and don't be a dick about it. ~ mazca 19:37, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

This still does not manage the fact that content is not merged to the target and so hidden for the majority of users. --Avant-garde a clue-hexaChord 19:41, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

So revert, and then discuss. If you already reverted, but have consistently found the reverts changed back to redirects without any attempt at discuss, let's have the details. I find it helpful to start the discussion yourself when you do the revert, not wait for the other party. It's not required, but it works better, to explain why, & on the talk p. not just the edit summary DGG (talk) 19:48, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Ok, if there's nothing wrong with blanking pages then, I have to move on. Thank you. --Avant-garde a clue-hexaChord 19:52, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

There is nothing wrong with blanking pages to create a good-faith redirect. There IS a problem with blanking pages against consensus, or as a pattern of disruptive edits. If neither of those is happening, then there is indeed no problem. If you suspect that one or both is in fact happening, I encourage you to bring it up here or at some form of dispute resolution - excessive redirecting of pages does not help the encyclopedia, but simply the act in itself doesn't have to be malicious. ~ mazca 19:56, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

But how does this improve the encyclopedia? It hides knowledge from those who don't know better, and is a good deal of work for those who know better. And sorry, it just works against {{sofixit}} - devil-may-care? --Avant-garde a clue-hexaChord 20:08, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

In many cases it hides unreferenced, unreliable information, pointing the reader instead to a more general article. In other cases it simply hides excessive, indiscriminate information about non-encyclopedic topics. Again, this is needlessly general because you won't point to specific examples of concern, but legitimately redirecting unnecessary and poorly-referenced articles does overall produce a more navigable and reliable encyclopedia. The question is when it gets excessive. ~ mazca 20:12, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

And if the editor thinks that they are just "not notable"? --Avant-garde a clue-hexaChord 21:23, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Then you have a content dispute, no different from any other content dispute. There isn't any general rule that's independent of some particular page's contents, because the answer depends on the particular page's contents. If you wish to have Misplaced Pages's administrators endorse a particular action, sight unseen, then you may not get your wish. — Gavia immer (talk) 22:08, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

As said before, I'm not here to denounce. Plus, it looks like I'm wrong anyway. Maybe I have to adjust my common sense a bit. --Avant-garde a clue-hexaChord 22:16, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Urgent threat

Just saw this Russian threat of suicide. Not sure who to tell, or where to contact. (move or rename thread as needed) Thanks. -- Quiddity (talk) 19:43, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Well if that is true, that person is dead now. That is very fast acting insulin. However some one NEEDs to call the cops NOW. I have already informed the user who was mentioned in that of the edit (cause I had no clue if they were saying they were married to that user..or not). Geolocated the IP. Godspeed. Rgoodermote  19:55, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Removed my notice to that user..seeing as I realized that is saying it is the user. Rgoodermote  19:57, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Informed Russian Wiki..well..more like hit any one that I thought was an admin. Rgoodermote  20:06, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Moscow's big, probably much too big. Hope it only was a joke... --Avant-garde a clue-hexaChord 20:09, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

It was a troll which has been harassing ru:User:Ilya Voyager for a long time. Next time you see such threats, just revert them. Thanks — vvv (talk) 20:14, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

(ec) I hope so too. But in case. I've got the Russian Misplaced Pages informed. I don't know Russian (surprise), so I have no clue if that has to do with the editor him/herself wanting to kill themselves or their ex-spouse. Can some one tell me if that editor mentioned is male or female? (do not bother with this then). Well good to hear it is a troll, but it's not something we would know here. However, I guess we know that the reaction time for such threats is going to be quick. Rgoodermote  20:16, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

User:Stevvvv4444

User:Stevvvv4444 has resumed categorising people according to ethnicity without references and when their ethnicity is of little importance, in contravention of WP:OC#CATGRS. The user has been warned about this previously - see here. Cordless Larry (talk) 20:13, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

I've warned this user. As they have already been warned for this in the past I think a block would be warranted if this continues. --John (talk) 22:35, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Templated by anon

I just received the warning template {{uw-longterm}} as the first and only edit of an anon. It is possible that I have so seriously annoyed an admin he forgot to log-in, in which case I would like an explanation of how. If not, this is vandalism; but somebody else should remove it. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:17, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Removed as obvious vandalism. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:29, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Likely a sock of someone you've encountered, however. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 22:33, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Continued disruption

I've made three sections here but no action has been taken. User:Jersay continues to remove cited content in spite of warnings edit warring, and 1. He has received 9 warnings in the past 7 days over editing contributions, and was recently rewarded temporary block but that didn't solve anything. I made my points clear in the history: history and urged Jersay to solve disputes in talk which he has yet to do. Am I at the wrong noticeboard? Wikifan12345 (talk) 20:23, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm unsure why nothing is being done. It's blatantly clear some action needs to be taken, as talking is getting you nowhere. -- Darth Mike  20:42, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Yes. He just removed the cited information a 2nd time. 1. Should I stop reverting? I don't want to get in trouble for edit warring but this is blatant vandalism. Wikifan12345 (talk) 21:04, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

I have blocked Jersay 48 hours for edit warring. EdJohnston (talk) 21:07, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Arcayne

There is an on-going debate relating to the infobox within fictional characters. This debating is raging in the disucssion page of the James Kirk biography. For the past few days, the page has been fully protected while the debate continued. Today, moments after the protection expired (but clearly far from a resolution) user:Arcayne changed the infobox to fit the format that he's been promoting. Several admins have voiced their opposition to this format. WP:Film & WP:Television have both come to the consensus that this is an invalid position and yet Arcayne (an admin) moved forward without a consensus and did it anyway. The wiki remains semi-protected. Erikeltic (talk) 20:44, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

• Just to point out that User:Arcayne is not an admin, not that this makes any difference on a content issue. Black Kite 20:49, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
• Notified Arcayne (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). –xeno (talk) 20:52, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Actually, Erikeltic has been confusing me with an admin since he was blocked for edit-warring in the article 3 days ago, and apparently began socking shortly thereafter. Since pointing this out at least twice seems to have had no effect, I've simply tuned him out. Additionally, the point of seeking consensus is to affect change in an article without excessive edit-warring. The article was reinstated to its pre-editwar state. As I understand it (and maybe I am wrong here) but consensus needs to be found before the change is made, as per BRD. Lastly, I am not sure where the "several admins have voiced their opposition" bit is coming from, since I am only aware of one admin who has been actively contributing to the article (not as an admin capacity but as an editor). The Film and TV wikiproject consensus' do not say what Erikeltic seem to think they do. I think I am on pretty solid ground as far as inclusion goes, and have repeatedly suggested that mediation might be a route to pursue, as Erikeltic seems rather unfamiliar with policies and guidelines, having only made about 200 edits thus far. He's been counseled about his often attack-y and uncivil behavior by at least two other editors. This is forum-shopping, and having to duck-duck-goose where Erikeltic is going to ask yet another parent is somewhat tedious. This belongs in mediation, not ANI. - Arcayne () 22:02, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Rather than even dispute or "reason" these statements and accusations, I would simply implore you admins to take a look at the discussion, take a look at the behavior, take a look at the history, etc. and you will see what's going on for yourselves. Thanks. Erikeltic (talk) 22:05, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

This is a normal content dispute and doesn't belong at ANI. Erikeltic has been more even-tempered of late, but this harkens back to his earlier forum shopping. --EEMIV (talk) 22:54, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Noah's Ark fact tag

due to a fairly involved dispute about the use of the word Myth in this lead of this article, I added a {{fact}} tag, here. this was the second time I've tried to add the tag over the last few days. since there is an ongoing dispute over the use of this word (a dispute, mind you, which involves the sourcing of the word) the 'fact' tag seems perfectly appropriate until the issue is resolved. however, it keeps getting reverted for no particularly good reason: once because it was interpreted as a POV addition - - (I have no idea how a fact tag can have a POV), and once because it was claimed to be inherent in the definition of Myth - - which is precisely the dispute in question.

there are a lot of bull-headed people on both sides of this discussion, myself included . I'd like an administrator to reinstate the fact tag with some notice that it should remain there until until the issue is resolved one way or another, as an appropriate temporary measure against misrepresentation. that strikes me as eminently reasonable. can someone please help me out with that? --Ludwigs2 20:46, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Requests for page protection is thataway. Be aware that pages are generally protected in the wrong version; that is, a version different than the one you want to impose. But so far this content dispute doesn't seem to have escalated to the point of requiring protection. —David Eppstein (talk) 21:06, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Myth is one our magic words. Skomorokh 21:28, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Yeth. Baseball Bugs carrots 23:01, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

I didn't ask for page protection, because the page doesn't need it. I asked for an administrator to reinstate the fact tag, and maybe keep an eye on things so that people don't continue to remove it before the dispute is resolved. or are you suggesting that three or four editors can simply remove dispute tags anytime they feel like it, without justification, and there's no recourse for addressing that problem? --Ludwigs2 23:52, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

See that magic words link above? That page tells you exactly how the word is supposed to be used, and that's how it is used in the article you are asking about. Asking an admin to make an edit that goes against what that page says is kind of silly. Quit beating a dead horse and accept the longstanding consensus. DreamGuy (talk) 00:00, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

For that matter, asking an admin to take a side in an edit war is...not what the admin privilege is for. Anyone can replace a tag, keep an eye on things, and demand that the tag not be removed; admins have no special rights in this regard. Admin action isn't needed here: what's needed is either gaining consensus for your views through discussion on the article's talk page, or acceding to the consensus that the other editors seem to have established. —David Eppstein (talk) 00:11, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Attack threat

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

99% chance this is just silliness, but ... just in case. --GRuban (talk) 20:53, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Unless he's come back from a forty-year holiday I think this is a troll. Combine that with two pieces of straightforward vandalism prior to the threat - revert, block, ignore...~ mazca 20:58, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

WP:AID

Misplaced Pages's article improvement drive is back up and running, and needs support. Participate, better then drama here. Secret 22:23, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Block requested for sock puppet of indef blocked editor

I've had a WP:SPI report declined on the grounds that the sock passes the WP:Duck-test. Could I get someone to block my quacking friend User:Far To Low (as a sock of User:Nimbley6)?

Cheers, This flag once was red_deeds 23:07, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

 Done Tiptoety 23:31, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

204.225.211.2

This nitwit is threatening legal action on their own talk page.

http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:204.225.211.2 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.162.222.100 (talk) 00:20, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

No, they're pointing out that what you wrote could be considered slander (or libel, as you point out). They're not saying that they consider it libellous, nor are they saying that they're going to take legal action. Thank them (done), move on (to do). Cheers, This flag once was red_deeds 00:24, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

I notice that IP 172 seems to be engaging in some baiting of IP 204 ... --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 00:26, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

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