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Topic ban needed for two edit warriors

Rarelibra (talk · contribs) and Supparluca (talk · contribs) are at each other's throats again over lame geographical naming issues relating to South Tyrol (see Provinces of Italy and Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol. This has gone on between these two users for years. I've told them both that they'd be topic-banned from this dispute, and I now ask such a topic ban to be endorsed by the community. These are otherwise constructive contributors (well, at least Rarelibra is, I can say that much), so I wouldn't want to see them blocked, but they both evidently have totally entrenched, intransigent positions on this particular conflict and need to be kept away from it.

I move that both Rarelibra and Supparluca be topic-banned from all edits (I'd say including all namespaces and talk) relating to contentious geographical naming practices relating to South Tyrol. Including but not restricted to: any changes to Misplaced Pages usage of the terms South Tyrol, Südtirol, Bolzano, Bozen, Alto Adige, or any other occasion where there is a choice between German-derived and Italian geographical names in that area.

Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:02, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

I think the proposal is too complex. Ncmvocalist (talk) 14:20, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Oh, don't worry, those two guys will know perfectly well what it pertains to, no problem there. If you want simpler wording, just call it: "Hands off of South Tyrol Alto Adige Südtirol Bolzano-Bozen" (but there you get the problem again.). Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:32, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

I agree that this is probably too complex for the typical noticeboard thread (where everyone either overtly or covertly wants to ban everyone). Just file an RFAR. — CharlotteWebb 15:49, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Arbitration is the last resort and probably ArbCom would just propose a topic ban as well. I'd agree that this board has to be limited to only serious issues that has taken long to get sorted out without success. However, I have no idea about this particular case but probably mediation was not tried? -- fayssal - wiki up 18:02, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Indeed, I'd be loath to go to arbitration over a dispute that is so relatively minor and narrowly circumscribed. It's just these two people, with one or two allies on either side perhaps, and it's just this relatively small set of articles. But it's extremely persistent, has been going on for years, shifts from one page to the next (sometimes it's an article name, then an image caption, than a map legend, then a category renaming, then a POV fork, then a merger proposal, then a page move, and so on, but always about the same underlying issue.) I'm sure there isn't a dispute resolution technique that hasn't been tried yet; I seem to remember there was some mediation attempt once, back some time, in the late pleistocene or thereabouts, but it all came to nothing. At one point Rarelibra got himself indef-banned for making rather nasty off-wiki threats of some sort, then got back on parole under the understanding he'd be topic-banned, but he ignored that once he understood the other guy wasn't being topic-banned too. They just won't stop, and there is not a shred of AGF left between these two. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:56, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

FPaS - I disagree. I cannot see where I am doing nothing more than defending the image work that I have done, in this case. You worked with me to an acceptable new image, and then Supparluca merely copied it, changed text, and uploaded it under the modified name (again - the image already exists in Commons). There was no need for Supparluca to do what he did, other than continue the agenda that was started years ago. You must admit that it has been some time now since I have participated in any disagreements about naming - simply stated, I've focused primarily on images and other geographic articles. The team you mention (Supparluca, Icsunonove, etc) all pretty much patrol those pages and focus all of their efforts on the continued push for name changing and article elimination (case in point was the valid and common usage name of "South Tyrol", an English equivalent of Sudtirol). I have avoided their name changing only up until it involved the removal of a valid image I had in place, with the substitution of the SAME IMAGE under a different file name. Rarelibra (talk) 20:52, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Support the topic ban as described in the paragraph above, "..relating to contentious geographical naming practices.." I think the above paragraph is clear enough for administrators new to the dispute to take action on it, if necessary. Any attempt by one of these editors to switch between German-derived and Italian-derived geographic names will trigger the ban. EdJohnston (talk) 16:03, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

If I may, I would like to make a quick statement here. Supparluca did not like an image I had up there (I specialize in maps) - so he started the recent actions. The image I had was approved by admins a while ago to be applicable because it covered the various language usages of the area. Please note it used the names that, by Wiki, are to be used - the common usage and English equivalents for the area. Supparluca merely downloaded MY image from Commons and made a local image in ENG Wiki for his special POV case. I tried to restore my image, and the result was the edit war. I then made the effort to UPDATE the image, making it better with more accuracy, color use, labels, etc. Supparluca simply took the UPDATED image and, once again, modified it to copy over his preferred usage. He made no attempt to contact me in any request for modifying the image or working out any requests to update, nor was there ANY ACTION on the articles for the need or request for updating the image. He is doing this as a POV move of his own volition. I did NOTHING MORE than restore the image (as my history will show), and create an update. My history will also show that my focus has not been this topic for some time, as my focus has been in many other countries/areas. Rarelibra (talk) 18:56, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Fut Perf. I've re-read it and I think I understand what you're saying now. If you don't mind, I'd propose wording it as "Rarelibra (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and Supparluca (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) are topic banned from all edits relating to South Tyrol, broadly construed. Included in this topic ban are: edits where changes are made to the terms South Tyrol, Südtirol, Bolzano, Bozen, Alto Adige, or any other change between German-derived and Italian geographical names in that area." Is that okay? Ncmvocalist (talk) 19:22, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Support: Either FutPerf's original or Ncmvocalist's revision or whatever. I happened across this endless issue by accident a long time ago and carry the scars to this day. Whatever will end it, please do. —Wknight94 (talk) 19:25, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

As a matter of fact, it was over two years ago that I encountered this dispute! Wow, I could barely focus for the 60 seconds it took me to track down that discussion... I can't imagine hanging with a dispute for over two years! —Wknight94 (talk) 19:36, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

• A topic-ban for these two seems reasonable. Moreschi (talk) 19:55, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Although I have been asked by Rarelibra (talk · contribs) to voice my opinion, I'd like to remain neutral because this topic has generated such an immense amount of ill-feeling I think it best I refrain from this discussion. Either way I have to laud Rarelibra (talk · contribs) for the innumerous constructive contributions he has done so far, a ban on him I do not consider fair. Gryffindor 20:58, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

• Procedural oppose. Sorry, but I just can't get behind any proposal to topic ban whose presentation is based solely upon links to account names and two articles. Future Perfect, I have the highest opinion of your judgment generally, but just isn't the sort of precedent we ought to set: AGF requires the rest of us to assume that no action is needed, and places the burden of proof upon you to demonstrate more clearly why it is. Durova 03:43, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
• Support the edit warring is pretty clearly the only issue that's a problem. If this will end the issue, it is a good solution. I can't make any sense at all out of Durova's justification for a procedural oppose. *dryly* It's as if you're saying we shouldn't take the word of trusted admins on these issues based on the evidence they put forth. -- Logical Premise 13:40, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
  • Indeed, the community are not incapable or unable to look at the relevant pages and decide for themselves - I doubt this could be characterized as a case that is too hard to follow without some sort of guidance from the complainant. Ncmvocalist (talk) 13:58, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
    • No matter how justifiable this particular request is, we should expect a substantive presentation in every request for community sanctions. The time it takes to prepare a set of specific diffs etc. is trivial compared to the effort it takes for the requesting administrator to determine that a request is necessary in the first place. We all know that wikilawyers abound: I intend to avoid setting precedents they could manipulate on future occasions. Durova 19:00, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
      • Often, those presentations are lopsided to begin with, so they're often not very reliable on their own because they don't paint the full picture - in which case, we end up having to find the relevant pages for ourselves. I agree; we should still insist on them painting a picture for every case (more than just saying 'I want him banned' or more than just 'look at this page. do something'). But if uninvolved users have looked at it for themselves, then I'm not sure about the validity of such an oppose. While Fut Perf. did not provide any diffs, there was a substantial description given by more than one user as to the duration of this dispute, and the extent of disruption it is causing, and the sorts of pages that are affected by it. If we genuinely couldn't find anything, then I'd be opposing with you on the grounds that I couldn't see anything to support the need for a sanction. Ncmvocalist (talk) 03:13, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Is a ban really necessary? I note that neither user has been blocked for many months. Can we try blocking rather than banning first? One user has no blocks at all, the other has several, but the most recent early this year. Mangojuice 23:49, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Is a block necessary? No one seems to be looking at the facts surrounding this - for me, it was only about the image. For Supparluca and others, it is pure POV pushing. This, for me, was about the image. For Supparluca it was about manipulating an image I created for his own usage. I make regular contributions - a lot of maps, actually (it may be near 1,000 total maps I've created). So a block would decapitate me from even doing that - as I do geographic sweeps, I find places that need updating or creation. This, for me, is about the image, period. Can anyone NOT see that? Rarelibra (talk) 12:54, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

• Question and Comment Has any form of mediation been saught? eg. MEDCAB or MEDCOM Seddσn 17:38, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

A cursory glance at Provinces of Italy seems to indicate that they are indeed reverting the hell out of each other. My question would be: "Has any community/expert consensus been reached on whether either, both, or neither of their proposed edits are correct?" If neither or both name variants are agreed-upon as the common-use name(s), I'd say support topic-banning them both. But if only one is agreed-upon, topic-ban only the one reverting against consensus. arimareiji (talk) 14:42, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Maybe it could be helpful to explain a bit what happened:

• 22/09 User:Supparluca ("S") edited the Provinces of Italy article, putting this image (A1) instead of this (B1), without explanation.
• 23/09 User:Rarelibra (R) reverted the edit without explanation.
• 23/09 S restored his version, saying that image A1, unlike image B1, contained the names used in the English wikipedia --].
• 23/09 R reverted without explanation.
• 25/09 S reverted with a more detailed explanation.
• 25/09 R reverted without explanation.
• 25/09 R proposed image A1 for deletion, saying that S wanted "to push a POV agenda".
• 29/09 An unregistered user supported S's version without explanation.
• 29/09 R reverted without explanation.
• 01/10 Image A1 was kept, and R said to User:Future Perfect at Sunrise (F) that F doesn't "see his agenda".
• 01/10 R uploaded a new version of image B1 (B2) with better graphics and the same problem of image B1.
• 01/10 S uploaded a new version of image A1 (A2) with better graphics but with more alternative names than image A1.
• 01/10 S reverted R's last edit writing "new image" in the edit summary.
• 02/10 R reverted without explanation.
• 04/10 - 06/10 2 reverts by S and 1 by R followed without explanation.
• 06/10 F said to R and S that he would propose a topic ban.
• 06/10 R reverted the Provinces of Italy article without explanation.
• 11/10 S wrote this summary.
• 12/10 User:Arimareiji (ARI) supported S's version without explanation.
• 12/10 R reverted without explanation.
• 14/10 Another unregistered user supported S's version writing "grow up ross..." in the edit summary.
• 14/10 R reverted writing "stfu and keep to yourself in VA" in the edit summary.

R has 6 blocks, S has 0 blocks.--Supparluca 17:30, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Having more blocks is certainly circumstantial evidence that a user is not AGF, and has already come up in the thread. But without either 1) a cite of the nomenclature discussion/resolution or 2) an uninvolved (i.e. neither "R" or "S") expert speaking up, I don't think the fundamental question has really been answered. If one is correct by consensus, topic-ban the other. If neither or both are correct by consensus, topic-ban both.> arimareiji (talk) 19:25, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

After looking into it more thoroughly, I'd like to reword my statement as having been incorrect. If using both names is correct, topic-ban R. If using only South Tyrol is correct, topic-ban S. If neither of the above has been chosen by consensus to be correct, topic-ban both. Anecdotally, I'd note that when I did a Google search:

"Alto Adige" - 25m hits.

"Südtirol" - 8m hits.

"Suedtirol" - 1m hits.

"South Tyrol" - 1m hits. arimareiji (talk) 19:25, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

I need to note that I can no longer consider myself an uninvolved party, as I just reverted the page myself to Supparluca's last version. I don't consider this to be the final word by any means; this is only meant to stand until the matter can be resolved. Supperluca's version seems more likely to be the one supported by consensus, and the page shouldn't be left uncorrected just to make a point. arimareiji (talk) 23:05, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

In fact I forgot to put the relevant links: Region: Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol; provinces: Province of Trento, Province of Bolzano-Bozen. Note that image A2 has more alternative names than needed (especially if you compare that with the other images in Provinces of Italy), and I would agree on using the same names as image A1.--Supparluca 06:35, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

I have no desire to become another edit warrior. But as soon as I changed the Alto Adige / Südtirol / South Tyrol map in Provinces of Italy back to what reasonably appears to be the more-likely consensus version, Rarelibra changed it back. If anyone other than Rarelibra or Supperluca who is familiar with this issue could speak up, it would go a long way towards establishing which should be kept up transitionally. I hope that once there's agreement from people other than the two fighting parties, both of them will be civil enough to let the page stand until the dispute can be permanently resolved. arimareiji (talk) 23:03, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Here is a key fundamental for me... Supparluca did not contact me regarding the image. He requested no name changes, nothing. The image I created was agreed upon for the multi-name usage and was in place for a long time. Supparluca then decided to, on his own agenda (there is no record on even the Projects of Italy page of the need to replace or rename the image) simply copy my image and upload against it. So he even broke Commons rules when a valid image already exists (and I don't see any rules against image names - they are simply reference names to the image). If it is a valid issue with the image names, Supparluca could have brought it up with the Projects of Italy talk page, or on the Provinces of Italy talk page, or on the Province talk page itself. It could then have been voted on and I would have made the necessary changes as the image creator. As it is, I improved the image, and all Supparluca did is copy my image (again) into a different image name.

If the image I created is a problem, fine. If it is voted upon that it is not consensus, I accept. But the original reason for edit war was because of the way he approached it selfishly without consultation. As far as pointing out blocks, I have made mistakes - but you cannot use my history against me. One can see I have contributed over possibly 1,000 maps or more - in many different articles. As opposed to Supparluca's POV push. My involvement with that topic has been very little since the last episode until now. But I do believe that both Supparluca and myself should be topic banned for the year because we are both guilty of something. Rarelibra (talk) 13:20, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Rarelibra, your insinuation of consensus pretty flatly contradicts the contributions of other editors at Talk:Provinces_of_Italy#Trentino-Alto_Adige.2FSuditirol.2C_etc., continuing to the rest of the page. In fact, your insistence on using South Tyrol as the only name contradicts your own wording from when the dispute first started. And it's extremely hard to AGF when you say "Okay, you win, ban us both for a year" when you've stated elsewhere that you're about to be deployed to Iraq for 400 days, and the page is presently on your revert version. arimareiji (talk) 04:37, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Arimareiji - it doesn't matter where the page is (now YOU fail to AGF). And where I go has nothing to do with it. Keep that in mind. Rarelibra (talk) 13:13, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

• Hilarious to see all this going on again, especially with the accusations of POV pushing and picking out who is good and who is evil. Look, I'll propose a simple fix and this circus can be closed down. First, do not use the image name Trentino-Alto Adige Provinces.png OR Trentino-South Tyrol Provinces.png. Make everyone happy, as we did on Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol, by making the file name Trentino-Alto Adige-South Tyrol Provinces.png. Is that really so difficult to do? Did half of you not learn now to share when you were in kindergarten??  :) Next, the map image should certainly have the provincial names (Trento and Bolzano-Bozen) and also the regional terms (Trentino and Alto Adige-South Tyrol). In that case, the current file Trentino-Alto Adige Provinces.png is the most all-inclusive, so rename that file, and be done with it. The users who insist to only use South Tyrol to describe this province need to finally learn to compromise; there is just no other way around it. They do not seem to comprehend that they are explicitly working towards removing the term Alto Adige from English Misplaced Pages. As in the article Province of Bolzano-Bozen there is obviously room for both terms derived from Italian and German. Now, I definitely Oppose a topic ban, because if you look at the user Supparluca, his passion is obviously for updating the pages of this topic. You ban him, that hurts his work on here. The other user, Rarelibra is enthusiastic in making maps, but has seemingly turned the Provinces of Italy maps into some sort of last stand. It will not be an equivalent punishment if he is banned from this topic, and that is why he doesn't care about such a ban; he will simply be "taking one for his team" and removing an editor he considers on the "evil" side. :-). He supported topic bans before that include himself, you have to ask yourself why he accepts it so easily. :) If you ban Supparluca for one year from this topic, then you have to ban Rarelibra from making maps for one year -after- he returns from military deployment. Anyway, I don't think anyone needs to be banned. If you all are really interested in a long-term solution to these prolonged arguments, simply make it an implicit rule that if there are such naming moves in the future, that a few unbiased admin mediators help form a compromise (Lar, for example). Somehow I'm guessing if Lar was here now, he would agree with the proposal I've made above. Share folks! Aren't there more important things to be concerned about??? No one is asking for only Alto Adige, the vast majority are asking for simply both terms, and that's it. If you look at Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol and Province of Bolzano-Bozen, those pages have been so very peaceful after the compromise solutions, it is indeed amazing! That is opposed to the Trentino-South Tyrol and South Tyrol that Gryfindor pushed for three years ago -- which ignited all these bad feelings. I noticed that Gryfindor had modified this image earlier with this same tired agenda. That is water under the bridge now.. at least for most. Icsunonove (talk) 20:23, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't think the name of the file was a problem; simply, you have to use different names if you don't want to block one image. And I think you can't use the slash, so using a name like 1-2-3, when in fact you mean 1-(2-3), and not (1-2)-3 or (1-2-3), would be confusing.--Supparluca 17:15, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

• • Hi Icsunonove. Thanks SO MUCH for bringing me here! :) The last time I tried to mediate this, I got so confused by all these names that I don't think anything useful got done. Even Giano couldn't explain it to me. You don't want me mediating it again, trust me. I hate to see people get banned, or even topic banned. I'd rather Rarelibra and Suparluca figured out a compromise between themselves that everyone can live with. (like what Icsunonove suggests, use both names for everything. Why not?) My suggestion would be that they need to go off and work through how they are going to work together, bring it here for discussion, and if it's approved, do it. If they can't... THEN topic ban them. Dunno if that would work. ++Lar: t/c 22:07, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose any ban for both Rarelibra and Supparluca and substantially agree with Icsunonove. --Checco (talk) 21:40, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
• As someone who has been involved in those discussion before (under my old account), I can approve Icsunonove's assessment and oppose this. Also per Durova, much more in-depth evidence including diffs should be provided before I could even consider as drastic a measure as a topic ban. Everyme 22:03, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

I will say this - the only thing I have a problem with is Icsunonove and his mention of my military deployment. There was an anon user who posted hateful statements here (and was subsequently removed and warned). The same anon user posted to my talk page (and was removed). That anon user referred to myself and Gryffindor by personal name, in some lame attempt of insult. The same anon user also sent me a personal email using an anon email server (old DOS trick) - not realizing that you leave an IP trail, also not realizing that certain resources can be used to find out the ISP and name/address of the subscriber. So now I will make it public - Icsunonove is the only one mentioning my military deployment because HE is the anon user that made the comments here and in my own mailbox. If he challenges this offline, I will provide the proof pointing this out. We all know it isn't hard to NOT log on to wiki and run an anon comment.

I want to caution Icsunonove about his previous anon comments and his being the only one mentioning my upcoming military deployment. It is not a factor in this at all - so the statement of banning me from making maps (and contributing to wiki)... let alone waiting until after a return (in 2010, mind you) is a personal attack and desperate measure at best. You should know something, Icsunonove - I VOLUNTEERED to go on the deployment. Karma is not a 'b*#ch' like you mention - though one day we may all meet her face to face. And while I appreciate your article on Nazi hunters in my mailbox, next time I also would appreciate it if you left to yourself. Not even Supparluca - for as much as we disagree - would stoop to the level that you did when you acted as you have.

As has happened before with many editors in the past, I concede and go on my way - I have better, more positive, more productive things to do than to be involved in this mess. But let us plainly recognize the actions that have taken place.

• 1 - Supparluca felt that an image needed to be changed or altered, without merit or request on either the Projects of Italy page, the talk page of the Provinces of Italy, nor the talk page of the province in question.

• 2 - Supparluca used GNU capability to copy an image already existing (rather than contact myself - the creator - to ask about updating it) and upload it into a new name. An IMAGE NAME is NEVER an issue on wiki or Commons, as many photos have weird or uncommon names that are not required for an article to be complete. It was an issue, rather, for the geographic names IN the image in question. By creating an extra image, Supparluca did, in effect, violate Commons rules and created a duplicate of sorts. It would have been a lot easier to update the image itself, or to update it and request a move to a new name, or to move to the new name and update the image, etc. So he went about it the wrong way.

• 3 - I acted the way I did to defend the image that was already created, including updating the detail of the image. I agree with Icsunonove that we can change the geographic names ON THE IMAGE to whatever is best for the article, but the creation of a very similar image (near duplicate) under a different filename is NOT the answer, and that is the crux of the problem.

• 4 - So my suggestion is - if agreed upon solution by what Icsunonove suggests, we delete all occurrences of the image except for the one that was originally created. Again - the IMAGE NAME is not a problem (nor are they argued about on wiki as seen here) - it is the names ON THE IMAGE that are an issue. So I can alter the image to have the necessary names desired ON the image. But certainly admins/editors can realize that the filename of the image should not be an issue as it seems to be here? Rarelibra (talk) 13:41, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Rarelibra - If you have evidence of your assertion that Icsunonove is anony-socking you, you need to take it up directly rather than claiming it in multiple threads and inserting Icsunonove's name as a signature. And Icsunonove was not the one who first mentioned your impending deployment, you were. After that, I mentioned it myself earlier in this thread (as evidence of arguable bad faith in your request to be banned along with Supparluca). Icsunonove isn't the first to mention it, he//she's the third. arimareiji (talk) 23:21, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Arimareiji - you've missed the boat on this one. I have provided sufficient explanation to someone offline who may decide to pursue this online. I will point out to you the obvious - the anonymous user commented earlier in the history of this thread (check the history if you need to) an was quickly removed and warned. The same anon user did so on my talk page and was removed. The same anon user also sent an anon email to my inbox - but email leaves more than just an IP trail (you should know this, Arimareiji). Go ahead and check Icsunonove's IP address and see how closely it resembles the anon IP. I also don't hear any rebuttal or evidence from Icsunonove as to his innocence - this is most likely because he knows I have already had it traced via email and corporate security. So yes, he was the first to mention it (anonymously) - you mentioned it, then I corrected you that it has nothing to do with this situation (after you made a biased judgment of 'bad faith' where you were incorrect), then it was mentioned more maliciously by Icsunonove. As I said, I agree with his assessment for the possible solution, I disagree with his lack of judgment and clearly poor approach in a personal attack that ended up in my inbox. You definitely want to stay out of this one. Rarelibra (talk) 02:51, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

If what you're saying about having evidence is true, then you're doing yourself no favors by trying it in the court of public opinion instead of letting procedure run its course. And I don't follow you... are you saying that he hacked your account to post that you're being deployed? Because I see your name under that first mention of it on 10/6, not his or an anonymous IP's. Finally, I don't take kindly to veiled threats to "stay out of this one," or dumb implications that I should be careful of email trails. Whether or not your past targets have had anything to be scared of, I know I don't. Stop skirting the boundaries of WP:LEGAL, and either say it directly or be quiet. arimareiji (talk) 10:14, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Blah blah blah. What I am saying IS true. There isn't any "court" here, so get off the high horse. I won't explain it again - you seen too confused to understand. I didn't issue any threat - as you obviously don't understand I told you it is best you remain detached. There's no skirting here whatsoever, I have said it quite directly, indeed. So you need to stop pushing the issue and remain quiet. Rarelibra (talk) 12:55, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

• Woaa there cowboy. Rarelibra, you really have anger-management and paranoia issues. That is not my IP address and I don't even use a commercial ISP! So, if you can trace that IP to me with your DOS, or whatever you are babbling about, you are truly talented. I have no clue what your real name is (how the hell would I?), nor do I have the time or desire to know anything about you. That you have managed to get so many people pissed at your behavior on just this website, is your issue, not mine. You can make accusations until you are blue in the face, but as most people remember on here, you are the one who has made all these strange threats of legal attacks or getting your government or corporate buddies to hunt people down Misplaced Pages. It looks like you are resorting to threats on here yet again, and THAT is what must and will be reported. Why don't you, for just once, stop implying all your foes on here are evil, and just discuss the issue with regard to this TOPIC. Lar above mentioned that there is no reason not to use multiple names as is currently used in the pages. I can't figure out why you think you are going to 'win' something on here by pushing out the other valid terms. So you can both quit the revert wars, and just use an image that has the provincial and regional names on it, and then go your own ways. I haven't been on Misplaced Pages now for months, and coming on here for a couple days makes me remember why. Icsunonove (talk) 21:06, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Stop it, Icsunonove. Please. You and I communicated quite a bit via email when you were under the username of Taalo. Thus, you (of few people before) know my name. There weren't any threats made. There are facts. Trust me on this one.

You've caught yourself in a deep trap, Icsunonove. You and I communicated quite a bit offline when you were under the username of Taalo. Funny how you forget that the history is captured here. At one point you even added an entry to my userpage , and you later updated it when you changed your username . Remember now? If you want I will pull the emails and present them too, but the above proof should suffice. Rarelibra (talk) 21:32, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Rarelibra, that is absolutely false. I swear to you and anyone else on here that we've never exchanged e-mails in real-life or through Misplaced Pages. The only e-mail I've ever received from you was through the Misplaced Pages e-mail service; that was anonymous, and I certainly did not reply. I have no clue what your real name is. I can't believe that you delete all your e-mails... please how me a single e-mail where either of us have corresponded using our real names? Man, it is just unbelievable the direction you take things on here. Listen, I don't care about your threats or your self-perceived facts, you've made all these before. You know what, I honestly hope you can deal with these anger issues, I do hope you have a safe trip to wherever you are being deployed, and that you somehow once and for all realize that we are not all evil on here because we advocated for these bilingual compromises. You never seem to realize that people on "our" side of the argument could have pushed only for Trentino-Alto Adige and Province of Bolzano, but we didn't. Yet the other side pushes only for South Tyrol. Think about that, will you? You really need to stop threatening people on here with WP:LEGAL or that you are going to hunt them down. Think about what you do to the Misplaced Pages environment by saying these things on here. You've done this to more than just me on two occasions now. Icsunonove (talk) 21:40, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

All I am going to say is I am quite surprised that you continue down the path of denial. I don't care about your words, insults, or otherwise. We really are here to find a solution - one that you have mentioned above and I responded positively to. All of the words in between (your judgments and insults about anger issues, etc) do nothing to contribute to a positive atmosphere as well. So stop dictating to me, I will stop things with you, and let us carry on with a solution, yes? Rarelibra (talk) 22:07, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Dude, I'm fine with focusing on just getting a solution about this map and everything else on this topic for that matter (future debates, etc.). That is why I even bothered to take the time to post above. You were the one who came on here with this huge post making all these accusations. You say I e-mailed you, I know your name, and we've had e-mail correspondence off-line -- but you know that just isn't true. If I've had some really bad case of amnesia, and you can show me these e-mail threads we've exchanged, then I'll accept you accusing me of denying things. But, come on now. Icsunonove (talk) 23:46, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

I cannot stress enough a simple pointer to when you even added an entry to my userpage , and you later updated it when you changed your username . This, in of itself, may not qualify substantial to some - but is a strong indicator. Nevertheless, as we have said, let us move on, yes? As we are getting nowhere attempting to stand each other's ground. Right? Rarelibra (talk) 23:55, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't know what to say... :-) A dozen users know I changed my username. I'm not even sure what this is a "strong indicator" of. o_O But, yes, lets move on, again. :) I'm going offline now for the weekend, I'll try to see how things are going with regard to this debate sometime next week. I'll wait for you to post our e-mail threads too. just kidding! :) I'll state again that I don't think any editor on here needs to be banned; they all contribute a lot to Misplaced Pages. My idea for the way forward is simple: 1) maps with both the provincial (Bolzano-Bozen) and regional (Alto Adige-South Tyrol) names, per the Province of Bolzano-Bozen page. Same for Trento and Trentino. Name the file something that also causes no friction or bad feelings. Call it provinces-of-trento-and-bolzano-bozen-bulsan-alto-adige-south-tyrol provinces.png. Whatever! Then, lets agree that before we get into these childish fights or month-long revert wars, we cool down and ask someone like Lar to mediate. He is actually pretty fun when he points out the stupid arguments we make. Who knows, one day we may all be friends again, even with Gryf, and finally have our Forsts. Doubt it, but anyway! hah. Have a good weekend everyone. Icsunonove (talk) 00:13, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Admin User:Hemanshu making non-MOS edits and refusing to answer talk page

Bringing this here from WP:WQA. User:It Is Me Here makes a convincing case here that Hemanshu is being totally unresponsive in the face of arguably counterproductive edits (and certainly non-consensus edits).

Hopefully this can be resolved without involving the Arbcom.. --Jaysweet (talk) 17:24, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

• I don't think ArbCom is necessary just yet, nor that anything can be accomplished here right now. But if he continues with such edits and remains entirely unresponsive, a block may become necessary, and should he then proceed to unblock himself despite consensus to the contrary, an emergency desysop by ArbCom may be the way to go. Weird stuff. At any rate, I've notified him of this thread, as should always be done. Here's also a permlink to the WQA section. Everyme 00:05, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

• I see. Please note that Hemanshu's (contributions) last edit to his talk page was in April 2006 and it was to delete some messages. The last time he replied to a post on his talk page was in 2005 (which does also show, incidentally, that he does know how to do it). It Is Me Here (talk) 06:47, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

He also never uses edit summaries, something I have mentioned to him on his talk page. I think we need to try for a few days to discuss this on his talk page and if he doesn't respond and continue, I agree that he should be blocked. Doug Weller (talk) 07:11, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

I heard he also eats puppies. --MZMcBride (talk) 08:03, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

He's an Admin, we should expect certain standards of Admins. Doug Weller (talk) 08:34, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Note he's been editing for almost 5 years, things were different back then (not that that is an excuse). John Reaves 08:55, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Point of note: he is an administrator, yes, but he has not used his administrator tools for some years (with a single exception in February 2008: one, bog-standard anonymous vandal block). Whether that means he should be held to the same extent to the same standards of conduct as an active administrator is, of course, a parallel—but important—debate. – Anthøny (talk) 10:23, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Has anyone thought of emailing him their concerns? He does have email enabled. MBisanz 09:04, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Heh, this is just like the CSCWEM mess. Everyone's like, "Well, let's give him a chance to respond first." "No, uh, we already did that." "Well... do it again." "Okay". (time passes) "CSCWEM is not responding to talk page messages." "Well, let's give him a chance to respond first." etcetra ;D

Anyway, yes, MBisanz is right, e-mail is the next step. If after a couple of weeks he doesn't respond to the e-mail and/or continues disruptive edits despite the e-mail, I agree next step would be a block. If he unblocks himself without responding, only then would be ArbCom. I only mentioned ArbCom in my initial comment because I don't imagine it will ever come to that point.

I guess I'll fire off the e-mail. I was sorta hoping someone who knew him would, but it doesn't look like anybody knows him. heh... --Jaysweet (talk) 15:39, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Here is the full text of the e-mail I sent:

Hi Hemanshu. Please be aware of the following: http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard#Admin_User:Hemanshu_making_non-MOS_edits_and_refusing_to_answer_talk_page

I'm sorry if my initial report came across confrontationally, I was mentioning what I hoped did NOT happen and I guess it came across as if I was suggesting it SHOULD happen. heh, oh well... Anyway, there are legitimate concerns over your Wikifying of dates (appears to be contraindicated by MoS) and multiple attempts to contact you on your talk page have not been successful. If you could just weigh in with an explanation of what's up, that would be appreciated. Thanks!

---Jay Sweet

Hopefully he'll see that and we can get this all sorted out with no mess! :) --Jaysweet (talk) 15:42, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

According to SUL Tool he has accounts on other wikis, we might try posting to his talk pages there and emailing there (if he has a different email registered at enwiki and ennews for instance). Jaysweet, since you did the initial email, could you do these as well? MBisanz 15:49, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Excuse me. Since when did MOS become policy? If you disagree with his edits, fix them. Little Red Riding Hoodtalk 19:45, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

In many situation, you would be correct. But adding links to dates is rarely useful and therefore has been largely abandoned, which means it's really not so much a matter of case-by-case editor discretion (although datelinks are sometimes useful) but of basic formatting. People just have to run around and clean up after him and the fact that he doesn't use edit summaries nor respond at all makes it a bit difficult to actually see the good intentions in his editing beyond simply assuming good faith as we all do. Everyme 21:07, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Although the "delete all date links" crowd has run roughshod over the opposition, it's not basic formatting, it's opinion. Little Red Riding Hoodtalk 22:17, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Mindless overlinking and things like flagicon overkill are objectively bad. Some people just keep not getting it. Everyme 22:28, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Violating MoS is not a reason to block, of course. Making a non-consensus edit (which, presumably, would be a valid way to classify any non-MoS edit), having another editor call you out on it, and then continuing to make the same/similar non-consensus edits without responding on the talk page... that's not an insta-block, but if it persists, it is blockable. --Jaysweet (talk) 19:12, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

It appears Hemanshu castes a decent internet presence. Jaysweet, I'm going to send you a list of alternate emails he uses that you might try him at. MBisanz 21:12, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, Jaysweet, it appears your email is disabled. Is there another way I can send you his email addresses? MBisanz 21:12, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Here is another fresh addition of date links, still with no talk page response or edit summary. It Is Me Here (talk) 18:53, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

This is totally inappropriate behavior; he's acting against consensus on a mass scale and is unwilling to reply and explain himself. If he does this again, he should be blocked. Everyking (talk) 04:17, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

He made two edits to Odwalla, solely for the purpose of linking dates, just two hours ago. He is ignoring consensus and ignoring the concerns that have been raised. I don't think anything less than a block will get the message across at this point. Everyking (talk) 06:48, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Template:Vanish

I don't know the exact purpose of {{Vanish}}, but it appears to contradict the rule that RTV is meant to be invoked only if someone doesn not intend to return. It says If you do this, you are still free to register a new username if you wish to continue editing Misplaced Pages. Everyme 20:50, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

I went ahead and re-worded it to reflect our current policy on a users right to vanish. Feel free to tweak it. Tiptoety 21:04, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

I think that when I wrote the template the RTV policy either said you could do so, or was ambiguous on the point. Seeing the current policy, I have no problem with the rewording of the template. Confusing Manifestation(Say hi!) 23:24, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Does this mean that vanished users are perma-banned? Even if they left in good standing? 140.247.241.71 (talk) 02:14, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

They can come back (as several have done) but are then subject to being connected to their previous identity. Stifle (talk) 09:01, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

William Penn Society

I wanted to add a redirect form William Penn Society to The William Penn Society, but found that the former has been blacklisted for some reason. I don't understand why. All I want to do is redirect anyways. Can this be fixed? --Jgenzuk (talk) 21:17, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Almost certainly SHEFFIELDSTEEL 21:19, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Done. Euryalus (talk) 21:20, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks! --Jgenzuk (talk) 17:12, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

BLP/libel issue?

Resolved

material reverted, user blocked by vigilant admin; block independantly reviewed. Non Curat Lex (talk) 06:02, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

... reopened to address question of new BLP issues, and ask for block review. ++Lar: t/c 15:41, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Is this diff a cause for concern vis a vis libel? Non Curat Lex (talk) 23:18, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

NEW, AFTER FURTHER REVIEW: The user has now posted links to articles here, avoiding the copyright problem, but potentially still raising a BLP/libel issues. Is this appropriate? Non Curat Lex (talk) 02:26, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

How does posting links to reputable news articles raise BLP/libel issues? Looie496 (talk) 02:42, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

The articles themselves attack a public figure and do not contain or discose independant sources. It may be a reach, but there could still be libel liability issues. Non Curat Lex (talk) 06:02, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

These are reliable sources. There's no BLP issue here. JoshuaZ (talk) 14:55, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Disagree. Used on a user page, they pose an undue weight problem. The user is welcome to disclose that they have had prior conflict with that judge, but not to present biased viewpoints, even if they are reliable sources, (see WP:COATRACK as well). WP is not a blog or a forum for continuing conflict from elsewhere. Admins should review the deleted edits on this user's page for more insight into why this is problematic. ++Lar: t/c 15:27, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

To clarify, as few people will have the background on this situation: On her userpage, this editor posted (1) a copyright news report and then (after it was removed and she was warned not to do it again), (2) a series of links to news reports with respect to the same person, with the edit summaries "my good news hurrah hurrah". It should be noted that this editor has a real-world adversarial relationship with the subject of these news articles (administrators can see her description of it in the first version of her userpage, now deleted in part for BLP reasons). The links were not proposed for article space, they were put in userspace by a user who has been asked repeatedly to leave the external battles behind. Behaviour like this is exactly why WP:BLP applies throughout all areas of the project. Risker (talk) 15:31, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Risker. Since we're here, let me ask for review of my block of Kay Sieverding (talk · contribs · count · logs · page moves · block log). See my talk page recently... (topic "Query": User_talk:Lar#Query). I blocked this editor for a week (the next step up from 3 days) after my initial removal of the BLPvio/Copyvio text was undone by placing these links. Those who know me know that I am very reluctant to block, in general, and quick to give second chances and try to find other ways to deal with issues. This user is intransigent and either cannot or will not work within our norms and it's time to cut our losses and reduce the disruptive effect this user has. So far everyone who has reviewed it on my talk page has concurred with it, except Elonka. She has engaged in rather a long dialog with somewhat shifting goals as we've refuted various points raised. Right now I think she wants the block undone (since she doesn't agree it is a BLP violation to cite sources showing a clear adversary in a negative light without a chance to make them balanced as we do in an article) and redone under some other pretext. I'm not sure that's a good use of anyone's time and I ask that my block be endorsed, and her going to the user's page to contradict what I said be pointed out to her as less than helpful. ++Lar: t/c 15:39, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

It looks like everyone on Lar's page agrees that a block is called for, leaving the only area of disagreement the reason for the block. My two pennies - given her history here, the statements she has made regarding her case and the judge in the past, and the seeming agenda with which she edits Misplaced Pages in general... it is reasonable to interpret her posting the bit about the judge with the edit summary "my good news, hurrah hurrah" as violating BLP. Folks might disagree with how serious a violation it is, given the news has apparently been covered in reliable sources, but the presentation of the material is not irrelevant in considering the BLP policy.

Kay has been blocked before, and has had the full attention of two administrators and a number of editors for quite awhile because of her disruptive and at times combative editing style. She has been warned repeatedly about soapboxing about her personal legal history, and a block is warranted this time around solely on that basis. Whether BLP was the best of the various reasons to use in the log is irrelevant - the block is good, and Elonkas suggestion to unblock and reblock with a different reason is a nonstarter. Avruch 15:52, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

That seems reasonable. Kay's unblock request doesn't help matters at all either. JoshuaZ (talk) 16:04, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

I echo Avruch's evaluation of this matter, and concur that Lar's original block was warranted. Anthøny (talk) 16:42, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Endorse block. I've had my fair share of differences with Lar on many previous occasions, but not on this occasion - I am in complete agreement with Avruch's view. Ncmvocalist (talk) 17:20, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Endorse block Proper block, within discretion, no need to unblock at this time, let it run its course. MBisanz 18:05, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Endorse block. User pages should not be used as a soapbox in real world legal battles. Also I do not consider some of these sources as reliable(e.g. ); they are breaking news (i.e. wild speculation), without a named journalist. See also Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Kay Sieverding. John Vandenberg 21:19, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Comment. I am in agreement that a block was appropriate, though I disagree that there was a clear BLP violation here. A better block rationale might have been "disruption", "soapboxing", "inappropriate use of userpage", "tendentious editing", or "Misplaced Pages is not a battleground". Choosing a BLP rationale was fairly weak, and it is evident that not everyone is in agreement that there was an obvious BLP violation here. I would also like to say that I am very disappointed with how Lar has been behaving when his block was challenged at his talkpage. When independent editors/administrators expressed concerns to him about the block rationale, his response was to react with defensiveness, incivility, accusations of bad faith, and name-calling. Someone with steward access should be reacting with a far higher standard of behavior, and I hope Lar will take some time to think about how he could have handled this better. --Elonka 19:24, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm always open to feedback, but I thought this matter was resolved, as far as AN/I is concerned, anyway. I think your characterizations of how I handled the discussion at my talk are extremely wide of the mark (anyone else interested should feel free to review the entire thread and judge for themselves) and do you no credit. ++Lar: t/c 00:21, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm always in favor of supporting accusations like "incivility, accusations of bad faith, and name calling" with diffs so that other readers can make an informed opinion. I thought we just dealt with the issue (in an ArbCom) of admins who make such charges about fellow editors at AN/I without substantiating diffs. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:29, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Sure, the link is already in this thread, but here it is again: User talk:Lar#Query. --Elonka 20:35, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

That's not a diff (but surely you know that). I'd like to see a specific diff to back up each of these charges: 1) incivility, 2) accusations of bad faith, and 3) name calling. These kinds of broadbrush accusations about other editors should always be backed by diffs, and we shouldn't fall into the habit of taking one person's "opinion" as evidence. Again, I thought we just went through that at Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/C68-FM-SV. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:21, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

FYI Sandy, there is an RfC/User re: the editor's alleged misdeeds, with more diffs than you can shake a stick at. Non Curat Lex (talk) 22:43, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

For the record I do not believe Sandy was referring to Kay. ++Lar: t/c 00:50, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Honestly, there is very little gain to be had in carrying this discussion forward in this manner. If there is a need for a user or admin conduct RfC, or a more structured discussion, then have it in the appropriate place. But the underlying issue of this section, and the purpose for its existence on this page, seems to have been resolved. I think the best thing for everyone to do at this point is to let it go, and move on to more productive pursuits. Avruch 23:35, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

I always welcome constructive review of my actions, and more specifically, I am always open to recall if someone feels the need. Elonka would have to find someone else to start the petition though, per my eligibility requirements, since she's not open to recall. ++Lar: t/c 00:26, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't think that this is a recall matter, but for the record, yes, I am open to recall. My standards are listed along with everyone else's at Misplaced Pages:Administrators open to recall/Admin criteria. --Elonka 02:59, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

I saw your last "recall". You're not open to recall. At least not as I would define it. That's OK, you don't have to be, most admins aren't, and there's nothing wrong or dishonorable about that. But it's disingenious to say you are. ++Lar: t/c 03:03, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Lar, that's kind of the point of our voluntary recall process, is that each admin can set their own criteria. Looking through the list, there are vastly different standards from admin to admin. Now, if you want your own standards to say, "Elonka can't ask me to resign," that's fine, that's up to you. In fact, some admins even go the other way, saying, only someone from a certain list that they provide, is allowed to initiate a recall. It's really up to each admin what they choose. But if the criterion is, "an admin open to recall", well, I'm open to recall. I don't have to be, but I choose to be. --Elonka 03:18, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Oddly, lecturing me on the point of a process I was instrumental in developing and promoting probably isn't going to earn you any style points with anyone. You do have a bit of a tendency to lecture others about stuff, don't you? Anyway, maybe you are recallable now. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on that, and gladly. But you weren't before, when your last "recall" went down. Not in my view anyway, and not in the view of quite a few other people (or perhaps you forgot the hue and cry about it, culminating in an attempt to get ArbCom to get involved to make you stick to your supposed terms, which attempt failed only because ArbCom had the good sense to say they weren't going to get involved in a voluntary process? Remember? ) Hence my comment that you're not recallable. But this is all irrelevant. You were asked to provide diffs, but your last two posts have focused on irrelevancy. That means this matter's closed, as far as I am concerned. The block stands, the BLP violation isn't there on the page any more, and you've accused yet another editor of bad faith. All par for the course, and everything is business as usual. We're done. You can have the last word, and then let's archive it. ++Lar: t/c 03:51, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Help needed

I am fairly new to Misplaced Pages so I don't know the proper way to go about this matter. I am totally a third party but I have noticed that user Mitsube in recent edit comments (16/01 19:25 item C) to an article entitled Dolpopa Sherab Gyaltsen seems to have disclosed the real-life identity of another user. My understanding is that this is absolutely forbidden. Could some administrator please look into this matter. I draw this to your attention because I value my own privacy and this behavior worries me. Anam Gumnam -- अनाम गुमनाम 01:03, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

It isn't absolutely forbidden. If a user discloses his own identity, and then engages in sock puppetry, then it may be acceptable for another editor to penetrate the disguise. That appears to be what Mitsube thought was happening. I don't know the article well enough to say whether he was justified. Looie496 (talk) 02:23, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

As far as I can see, there is no evidence here of sock-puppets. There was a user Tony Page quite some while back but he seems to have stopped editing at the beginning of 2008. The user Suddha has just recently started editing. There is no continuity of use to suggest they are really the same person or other tell-tale signs of multiple identities, so user Mitsube is speculating about a common identity or probing for the identity of user Suddha. If they are the same person, then he/she might have valid reasons for not wanting their real-life identity exposed -- there is then a invasion of privacy. I still think that this is not acceptable. I hope some other administrator could take the time to look into this. -- अनाम गुमनाम 05:55, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Appropriate

Is User talk:98.169.210.188 appropriate use of Misplaced Pages? Free speech, or bad faith of a disgruntled editor? Background: one of several IP's used by a previously enjoined editor found to have been used to manipulate consensus discussions. //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 02:19, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure what to suggest. If this were a registered user, I'd say it's inappropriate use of a Talkpage, and strongly suggest it be moved to a User sub-page and/or be discussed at MfD. SHEFFIELDSTEEL 02:32, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Link spam? Grsz 04:15, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Reverted back to the last good talk page version. BJ 05:20, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Music night in Edmonton

Has anyone else noticed a large number of articles about non-notable bands in Edmonton, Canada? Most of the A7's I've deleted so far have been created by different users about different bands. CambridgeBayWeather Have a gorilla 04:42, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Ah, never mind I just found Talk:Operation Midnight Climax (band), it's a school project. CambridgeBayWeather Have a gorilla 04:48, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

What a strange assignment. Protonk (talk) 05:34, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Strange indeed. I can't imagine any teacher asking students to use Misplaced Pages for class, especially if they don't know how the article creation process works themselves. Gary King (talk) 05:36, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

I can imagine it. I can also imagine kids saying it was an assignment when it wasn't. Protonk (talk) 05:49, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, I've speedied a few of these already this afternoon. I did think it odd that they were all from the same place. Has anyone tried to get a hold of the teacher to point them towards this discussion? This is a classic example of why you should ask first before getting your kids to put a whole bunch of effort into creating articles that are only going to be deleted. Lankiveil 06:17, 17 October 2008 (UTC).

We could ask. They might be willing to make an account and we could point them toward Misplaced Pages:Schools'_FAQ and maybe Wikiversity. Protonk (talk) 06:27, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

This is ridiculous, another wave of these have just appeared in Category:Candidates_for_speedy_deletion. I've left a note at Talk:Operation Midnight Climax (band), although it's parent has been deleted and the talk page itself probably doesn't have much longer for this world. Lankiveil 06:36, 17 October 2008 (UTC).

• I listed a few at AfD. What links here is organized by date of page creation. If you look at What links here, you'll see that there are not many of these recently created, Edmonton music pages left. There are some user pages with article content on them, but they were recently created so there's not much to do with them at this time. -- Suntag ☼ 10:57, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

After I found out it was a school project I began leaving messages at the posters page linking to a section on my talk page rather than reposting the same message several times. I gave them a link to the notability page, the school project page and asked them to explain to the person who set this. No reply from the teacher so far. CambridgeBayWeather Have a gorilla 16:16, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

my sisters page

My sisters name is Julianna Mauriello. she has a page on this website where people are adding stuff that is not true. I have fixed the page to show what is true. But some of the stalkers, I mean people on this site, keep changing it to not true stuff. My sister knows about this website. She knows it is full of garbage. we either want her page removed or to show real information. she was on a show called Lazytown that finished filming in 2007. she will be attending Vasser college for elementary education in 2009. i dont know how sourced you want then that. i was told in email that her biography page was to have incorrect stuff removed asap, well i am trying to do that but a few people are fighting with me. Not coincidentaly, they are the same people who have had control of her website on here for years and have riddled it with misinformation. I, We, would like the page removed. My sister is a minor, the misinformation on the page could be considered dammaging. since i have been to this site 3 times in my life, chances are I will not be able to find my way back here so you may email me at (email address redacted by Jéské thanks --Anthony —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.234.104.242 (talk) 07:16, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Tough. We have an OTRS system which will work with her to fix or delete the article; we can't act on IP addresses' say so because we have no way to verify you're actually her brother. I've also taken the liberty of removing your email address so as to prevent people from grabbing it and sending you harassing/spam emails. -Jéské 07:44, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

This user has been blocked for 24 hours for 3RR violation. ~ L'Aquatique 07:46, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

And extended to 48 for calling others pedophiles. -Jéské 07:52, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Can someone oversight the email left in one of the edit summaries left by the IP as well? Wildthing61476 (talk) 12:18, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

That diff has already been selectively deleted. Oversighting probably isn't needed. Stifle (talk) 20:32, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Closing XfDs that you have voted on.

Can/should a user who has voted on an XfD close the XfD or would that represent a conflict of interest? I'm asking here because I do non-admin closures on AfDs and am thinking that maybe I shouldn't vote on them if I'm going to close them (provided it's a keep of course). I ask here because (hopefully) some admins will know the answer. Thanks and happy editing! Foxy Loxy 08:36, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

• I would definitely recommend that a user not close any XFD in which he has participated, with the possible exception of where he is closing based on an almost-unanimous decision which is against his own point of view. Goes double for non-admins. Stifle (talk) 08:59, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
• Non-admin closures says "Non-admin closure is not appropriate when the non-admin ... expressed an opinion in the deletion debate." -- Suntag ☼ 09:30, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

• Opps, didn't see that one :-) Foxy Loxy 09:37, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

It's fine to close an XfD you participated in if the nominator has withdrawn and there are no extant delete !votes, or if the page has been speedy deleted. the skomorokh 09:55, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Other than that, no one, admin or otherwise, should close a debate/rfa/xfd/etc they participated in. — Rlevse • Talk • 18:45, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Another quick question

Also, would it be alright if I started to close AfDs (unanimous or very close) from Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Log/2008 October 13 now? Foxy Loxy 09:16, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

See WP:OAFD for debates that have been open long enough to close. the skomorokh 09:55, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

I've seen users close pages before 5 days is up (usually late in day 4), is this alright? E.g. this AfD was closed on the 16th at 3:28 (UTC), when it was opened on the 12th at 22:46 (UTC), making it listed for roughly 3 days and 5 hours (I think). Foxy Loxy 11:18, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Strictly speaking that close was naughty, but Z-man is an admin and it did look like a snowclose. Early closing may be appropriate in the case of snow, nominations withdrawn, XfD's opened very soon after a previous XfD on the same page, speedy deletions and bad faith/banner user nominations, but really there is no deadline and non-admins such as yourself are best advised to leave things run for the full period as early closes often lead to unnecessary drama. the skomorokh 11:37, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Non-administrators should wait the whole five days until closing, or else I or someone else will likely rollback the close. Daniel (talk) 01:46, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

please update SVG file

I made an improved version of http://commons.wikimedia.org/Image:SVG.svg (visually almost the same, details neater now, file size down a lot, source bit more readable)

I temporarily put it at http://steltenpower.com/svg.svg (careful with case/caps) Please tell me at svg@steltenpower.com when you fixed it.

Wouldn't it be a lot easier if the world could just edit the SVG source code right on Misplaced Pages? Of course not allowing the edit if it's not valid SVG.

Thank you for your effort to improve Misplaced Pages. That image is hosted at Misplaced Pages Commons, their administrators' noticeboard is here. I also opened your image and at least in my browser (Firefox 3) the source now runs off the background page, which I would not consider to be an improvement. Thanks again for your interest and effort.  ★  Bigr Tex 19:15, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

I get the same thing, but it looks like a simple font issue. Debugging images is a bit off-topic for the admin noticeboard, I realize, but I believe steltenpower could fix it by converting the text to a path (something you need to do to most SVGs when you put them on the Web). rspeer / ɹəədsɹ 05:29, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes, either convert text to paths or use the MediaWiki default, Bitstream Vera Sans. The latter is better when the look of the text is not so important as the information it conveys. Image:NYCS map A.svg is an example of this; it's easier to change text that way. --NE2 05:35, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

WYSIWYG editors?

Misplaced Pages is great. Wiki syntax however keeps most people from helping (just put ALL your coding/math/tech skills (and interests!!) aside for a minute and remember most people are like that) Is there an editor for non-coders that can be put in a not-to-miss place? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.170.134.79 (talk) 12:37, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Title added. You may want to have a look at WP:WikiEd. It Is Me Here (talk) 19:31, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

"Nancy" vandal and other dynamic IP idiocy

It's scary stuff like this which prompted me to shut down my account and watch the goings-on from the sidelines. I've seen the sheer stupidity of garbage like the organized "Grawp" vandalism (which I was a victim of, by the way), nearly one thousand blocked socks of User:MascotGuy in a four-year stretch and the ongoing sockpuppet wars here and there but never in all the years I contributed to this site have I see something so egregious as those revolting and incessant attacks on User:Nancy. Why do all the sickos have dynamic IPs and why in hell has this been allowed to continue? I tell you, I'm at the point where I don't even want to casually surf this site, let alone contribute. I'm happy on some smaller specialized wikis which never get bothered by this insanity. If the attacks against Nancy aren't a clarion call for the Wikimedia Foundation to press charges against those responsible, I don't know what is. Heck, just a quick perusal of the new user page mostly turns up childish vandals with a penchant for fart jokes, wildly nationalistic editors with axes to grind regarding their perceived misrepresentation of their country and spammers, spammers everywhere. Very few new accounts actually seem to be constructive. That said, I fear this Nancy attack is far more dangerous than the threat posed by the bored teenagers who perpetuated Grawp. This is obsession, plain and simple. Good luck. As for me, I think it's time to just go away cold turkey and never return. Just no fun anymore.  :( Thanks for listening. Regretfully, --70.104.7.231 (talk) 19:34, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Dude. Nancy is an admin, and, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, quite capable of taking care of herself. Sorry to hear that you can't stand her page being vandalised though. Regards, SHEFFIELDSTEEL 19:47, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Don't worry, as long as there are vandal, we have plenty more good editors who will clean up their messes. Nancy's a good admin too, I'm sure she can handle the childish attacks on her page. Wildthing61476 (talk) 20:11, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm glad you guys have her back covered. My concern was over the rather obsessive behavior of this one, well, jackass if you'll pardon my French. She's made of some strong stuff if she can keep on taking that ridiculous taunting without walking away...and I wouldn't blame her if she did. Thanks for the reassurance. Sincerely, me again at work via --76.79.100.242 (talk) 22:32, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Delayed speedy deletion

There is a proposal to unify the deletion delay on categories like replaceable fair use, empty category, possibly unfree images, and redundant templates, changing them all to five days. Please visit WT:CSD if you wish to discuss this. Stifle (talk) 20:29, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/Joe_Wurzelbacher

Please full protect this page. Numerous editors are inserting material that is attacking this person. Primarily editors are trying to link him to the Keating Five scandal because he has the last name as one involved. Even though there is no proof at this time that he is related or has anything to do with this scandal. Additionally, people are inserting his tax problems into his bio which have no relevance to the article. Arzel (talk) 22:43, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

WP:RPP, please. I'm not taking this as I have very strong political views and do not want to have them displayed on Misplaced Pages. -Jéské Couriano 22:45, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, wasn't the AfD for Joe the plumber closed as redirect due to WP:BLP1E? This seems to be a recreation of the same material. Of course WP:CCC. VG ☎ 23:07, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

You missed the second AFD where the brilliant close was to keep it temporarily.--Cube lurker (talk) 23:10, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

I see the new policy is to keep articles around until "the spotlight has moved to another political talking point". My mistake. VG ☎ 23:15, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

I personally love the closing admin's statement: "While yes, his article violates the BLP policy, there is no deadline and exception can be made". Really? We make exceptions for the BLP policy? All my respect goes to whichever admin deletes this article. - auburnpilot talk 23:40, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm just as little impressed with the close on the AFD, but I think rather then wheel war and cause havoc, the best thing to do is get it to DRV, which I've already done. SirFozzie (talk) 01:49, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Talk:Star Trek (film)

BillCJ (talk · contribs) left a really uncivil comment on the page accusing me of ownership with the article after working around the clock since, well September really, to clean-up cites and expanding in line with various good film articles, released and unreleased. Bill clearly doesn't want to discuss this any further, and apart from this he seems like a great editor (look at all those Barnstars), so I'm just concerned about him suddenly going on the warpath with the usual "fan" insult and brazen rudeness. Should I have just undid his comment which had nothing to do with improving the article regardless of his good past form? Alientraveller (talk) 23:36, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Per above, "These pages are not the place to raise disputes over content, or reports of abusive behaviour." BillCJ indicated that he is de-watching the article and the talk page and won't respond to comments about it. While probably uncivil, I think you should just archive the discussion and let it go, but I'll notify him anyways. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 01:11, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Well, per this, I think we are done. Mark as resolved and move on? -- Ricky81682 (talk) 03:02, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

In otherwords, no Vulcan nerve pinch required. GoodDay (talk) 00:22, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

7 (number) - unable to revert to last good?

Hi folks, not sure if this is just my end, but I can't seem to revert to the revision of 7 (number) which doesn't have "OVER 9000" spewed all over it. The rev I want to get to is here; I've tried "undo", "edit" and even manually copy/pasting. What am I doing wrong? Thanks. SMC (talk) 01:43, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

The undo buttons aren't going to work. I've reverted back to the last good edit. —kurykh 01:50, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Request to remove page from blacklist to create redirect

Not a big deal, but when attempting to create a redirect from John Henderson McConnell to John H. McConnell, I found that the former page was blacklisted. Since this is his full name, I believe it could be useful as a redirect because he is sometimes referred to by his full name to distinguish, and I have yet to find any other such uses with notability for Misplaced Pages, I am requesting that it be removed from the blacklist for the purpose of creating this redirect. Thank you. – Alex43223 05:20, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

In the future, you want WP:RFUP for requests like these. However, I see no protection currently in place, and nothing in the page logs... am I missing something? Tan | 39 05:26, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't appear to match either the local or global blacklists, either. What exactly is the error message you get when you try to create it? --Carnildo (talk) 06:09, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Well, interestingly enough, I am no longer getting an error message. The one I was getting in a red box above the edit field told me to post here to "request removal from the blacklist", which it was on. Oh well, I got it done. Thanks for the help! – Alex43223 06:55, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

If it mentions "blacklist", it'll be the title blacklist or possibly the spam blacklist. If it continues to be an issue, post again with the full exact message. Stifle (talk) 09:23, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Troubling edit

Do we ever get concerned when someone writes something like this? I hate to think it's an actual threat, and it's probably just a joke edit, but maybe it's better to find out what's going on. OrangeMarlin 06:22, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

WP:SUICIDE recommends action, although it's not a policy. Tan | 39 06:34, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

It says that admins should handle this. I'm a health-care professional, and we have a policy that every threat should be taken seriously. Someone needs to handle this. OrangeMarlin 06:38, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Submitting checkuser request. Tan | 39 06:40, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

See request here. Tan | 39 06:45, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Copy of my post to the RFCU case:  Confirmed this user is editing as an IP and as the named user. Both IP and named user edits are very child like and even several vandalism in nature. I can tell what city this seems to be coming from but did not find enough to contact any authority about. In my personal opinion, this is some kid fooling around. I've even blocked the named account as a vandal only account. I want to say the users reporting this to AN and RFCU did the right thing. — Rlevse • Talk • 13:18, 18 October 2008 (UTC)...PS someone already blocked indef for vandalism. Blocked IP for a week. — Rlevse • Talk • 13:20, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Am I banned?

I've used accounts in the past that have got blocked, but I don't know if that constitutes a WP:BAN. You don't need to revert my edits or try to censor what I say; I'm not dangerous.--BlockDropper (talk) 13:30, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Probably, What were your previous accounts? Spartaz 13:33, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Well, that doesn't really matter. The problem is that the personal temptation to edit Misplaced Pages when I'm bored is still there, and I will still do it, albeit not necessarily in a particularly helpful way. If you, the administrators, stopped with your censorship and totalitarianism, then this place might be fun to edit.--BlockDropper (talk) 13:50, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

If you want to vandalise, edit Encyclopedia Dramatica - it's vandal-city. Misplaced Pages, on the other hand, is an encyclopedia Dendodge|Talk 13:53, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Indef'ed. And in less than one minute after I blocked, he requested unblock. seicer | talk | contribs 13:56, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Can someone fix this

User moved user talk page to article space talk page. -- Suntag ☼ 16:11, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

And AFD closed as a WP:CSD#A7. --Rodhullandemu 16:32, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. -- Suntag ☼ 16:53, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Unblock problems

The following discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

=== Unblock problems ===

Resolved – I've cleared the autoblock. –xeno (talk) 15:37, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Can another admin take a look at User talk:Ceoil, and the associated thread on my talk page? I blocked Ceoil, originally for 72 hours, under the guise of disruptive editing. As it turns out, it was a mistake from a couple of guys joking around (apologies have been made all around), and I unblocked him after three minutes. However, it seems Ceoil still can't edit, and I'm not sure what the problem is. Tan | 39 15:34, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

I forgot to hit refresh. Honest mistake by both of us, nothing more, and end of story. Sorry I swore at you Tanthalas39. Ceoil 15:41, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

The background is this was a very bad block I was willing to let slide, but it seems that while it was an honest mistake, the blocking admin has no barrier to guide him between good and bad, I made peace (I thought) after the situation was explained and asked Tanthalas39 to acknowlege a misundterstanding by tweaking the block record with the summary "misunderstanding".. Instead I am left with, permanantly "misunderstanding? I have misgivings - "prick", "twat", etc - but per JayHenry". Thats no small thing and will always be there as lond as I edit here. A huge disgrace, and highly highly offensive. Ceoil 16:52, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

If you think that the 15:17, 18 October 2008 Tanthalas39 post summary is not appropriate, you can post a request at Misplaced Pages:Oversight to have it removed. -- Suntag ☼ 17:00, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

I think that Ceoil is not looking at the time stamps properly. My initial block - while I thought he was harrassing JayHenry - quote his edit summaries (prick, twat). We determined this was two guys having fun, apologies were made all around (see his and my talk pages), and I did a one-second block where I clearly state is was a misunderstanding and that Ceoil did nothing to warrant the initial block. I thought we all made peace; I have no idea where this new animosity is coming from. Tan | 39 17:06, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

That isn't something oversight would mess with (I don't think they even could from a technical standpoint). John Reaves 17:08, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Are you saying I'm incapapale of intreparing the diffs, or that I'm a liar. Its one or the other, and bear in mind I am basically accusing you of being a liar.. Which it it. To reming you you followed unblocked "Ceoil (Talk | contribs)" ‎ (misunderstanding? I have misgivings - "prick", "twat", etc - but per JayHenry) with Explaining previous block. Misunderstanding based on "rivalry" with JayHenry. User did nothing to warrant previous 72-hour block only after I complained here. Fucker.

What the...? I was in the other room watching the Purdue/Northwestern game. I came back to see if you agreed with making another block, and walk into this? I wash my hands of this situation; I have done all I can. I still apologize for the first block - it was a misunderstanding, and JayHenry even agreed it looked like harassment on face value - but now I have to be subjected to "fucker"? I'm done with this. Tan | 39 17:17, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Note: after this edit, which I've reverted, I've blocked Ceoil for 3 days. MaxSem 17:32, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Also, I've deleted Image:Unknown-1236.jpg he uploaded for his userpage under a bogus PD-self claim. MaxSem 17:35, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

We should never use bad words in log entries, especially in block logs. A bit of research would have prove easily that it was not harassing, and asking for clarifications when established users are involved is not so hard. I suppose the latest block is a 'cool down' one, however three days is a bit long, no ? You realize that all this has probably drawn away a long-standing, valuable editor, and all this situation could have been avoided with a little more common sense. Incivility is an issue, but have you noticed this MaxSem ? I also note that the user hasn't been warned for incivility before being blocked. I don't think this was helpful, nor justified. Cenarium 20:02, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Could we have this discussions heading altered to something less colorful? GoodDay (talk) 20:07, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Ceoil is blocked for 3 days for ?! That seems harsh. --maclean 20:18, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

MaxSem, is there anyway we can possibly revisit this? Ceoil is unequivocally one of the project's best editors. There are literally not a dozen editors of his value. As a joke, Ceoil and I would pretend to bicker with each other. With hindsight, my joke warning was a disastrous mistake. I didn't realize {{uw-preview}} could get out of hand so quickly, and I feel sick that this has happened. Max, I'm really pleading here. Anyone would be justifiably upset to get their block log marked up by this. And it's not Tanthalas's fault; it's mine. Believe me I am chastened. And Ceoil has a three year track record of just incredibly valuable contributions. Please take a look at his articles at WP:WBFAN. He's angry, and again, justifiably so--and ultimately at me, as I got him into this mess. The last thing in the world I want is to see him blocked for three days. Can I plead with you to lift this? I really can't state Ceoil's value to the project, and I do worry that every minute he's blocked for my actions, is a minute we risk doing damage to the project by discouraging him from coming back. --JayHenry (talk) 20:29, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Would anybody mind, if I altered the discussion heading? GoodDay (talk) 20:30, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Done. Gwen Gale (talk) 20:34, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Thank you. GoodDay (talk) 20:37, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Thank you Gwen. I see from User:MaxSem's talk page that he seems to be gone for the week. Is there anyway we can revisit this block? Ceoil's no threat to the project, and the primary thing we're preventing now are his excellent contributions, as witnessed by his three year track record of researching, writing and working on some of the project's absolute best content. His anger at me was justifiable; it was a stupid joke I made that, when read out of context, led to this unfortunate scarring of his block log. For Ceoil to be blocked for three days for something that I did, is disheartening to him, no doubt, and ultimately not a productive use of blocking. I ask someone who cares about the content of this project as much as Ceoil did to look at his work, please consider his track record (he doesn't have a history that justifies a 3 day block for a single incident of justifiable anger at myself, about which I'm not upset), and that this whole episode started because of my actions, not Ceoil's. --JayHenry (talk) 20:42, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

His choice of colorful language may have been a reason for his blocking. GoodDay (talk) 20:44, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

3 days is excessive for a user like Ceoil. And it seems like MaxSem is now on a break. Blocking and running really doesn't work. -- How do you turn this on (talk) 20:48, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

GoodDay, you're right that he used colorful language but please let's consider this in context. I jokingly gave him a warning that he got blocked for. He has a right to very angry at me. It's like stubbing your toe. Your mad at the table you just stubbed it on, but you're likely to yell fuck at whoever walks by. Same thing here. I stubbed his toe, and some other people got caught in the crossfire. It's all my fault, and Ceoil really did nothing wrong other than have a reaction to my stupid action. He's one of the project's absolute best editors. And it's my fault his toe got stubbed, not his fault for having a nerve system, if that makes any sense. --JayHenry (talk) 20:58, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

As I've said (see below). It's up to the Administrators to decide. GoodDay (talk) 21:57, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Good grief. What exactly is the problem here again? Someone thought a user was harrassing another, so blocked them. They find out the block was a mistake, so undid it, and filled it with a 1 second block to make it clear that was the case. So, what's the issue now? Why is Ceoil so angry about this, and now calling Tanthalas "fucker"? I mean, it's just a block log. And three days was excessive for that. -- How do you turn this on (talk) 20:44, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

That statement indicats to me that have no idea what is going on "How do you", and are better off out out of this discussion. Ceoil 23:46, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

No, I know exactly what is going on. It was a rhetorical question, that I answered myself. -- How do you turn this on (talk) 23:58, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

So is "prick" simiarly retoically. Unfortunatly it will always read be out of contect. I would never subject my self to a RFA, but just suppose I wanted to. Or supposed I care about what other editors cared after looking at my log? Im a "Prick". Ceoil 01:02, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't say "Ceoil is a prick". And if you went for RFA, that can be explained. As you say you don't intend to, what's the issue? It simply says prick was a word you called someone else - and you did, jokingly to JayHenry. -- How do you turn this on (talk) 01:09, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

(See above) - I'm guessing it's a civility block. GoodDay (talk) 20:46, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

That's up to the Administrators to decide, I guess. GoodDay (talk) 20:55, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

It's pretty alarming that we lose two of FAR's three most prolific and valuable contributors, and arguably our top FA contributor (when adding FAs and FAR saves together) within days of each other because of unstudied admin decisions and heavy handed admin action. Something is really spinning out of control in the admin corp. Yannismarou and Ceoil are invaluable as content contributors; we have people pushing the block buttons without looking into the background (JayHenry and Ceoil have been goofing on each other's talk pages for as long as I can remember). Without these fellows, the FA tally will decline by one more per week that we wouldn't have lost with them. I'm afraid we have too many admins who just aren't in touch with article writing and content contribution. These losses don't bode well for the future of our best content. Maybe we do need forced once-a-year admin re-training. What a sad week. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:50, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't think it's the fact that content contributions have anything to do with this. It's simply a misunderstanding, and Tanthalas was a bit quick to block. Ceoil's reaction "fucker" "fuck you" was out of order, whether he's good on FAR or not. Good content contributions isn't a get-out-jail-free-card for lack of civility. -- How do you turn this on (talk) 20:55, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Wow, we are all back from a 40 minutes block, aren't we ? Back to the subject, mistake indeed, but I know I would be quite angry if someone left some crude words for whatever reason in a log somehow related to me, even though I wouldn't express it this way. An incivility block without warnings, and then leaving is really bad form. The comments were 'out of order' yeah, but the second one has been modified. Nothing of this warrants a 3 day block. And we don't block as punishment. Cenarium 21:52, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

(Comes back from watching X-factor) You are right, of course. MaxSem shouldn't have blocked, and since he seems to have gone on a break (particularly bad idea) I would hope an admin would reverse this soon. -- How do you turn this on (talk) 21:55, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

From watching X-factor. ha ha ha. Well surprise surprise I being blocked and misunderstood by the likes of you. Ceoil 23:50, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Er, I was one who disagreed with your block. I have no idea what you mean by "likes of you". I was defending you. -- How do you turn this on (talk) 23:53, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

• Regardless of who is right or wrong, misunderstandings and incivility blah, blah, blah. Does the block of Ceoil serve any useful purpose? Of course it doesn't, so why is the block still in place, MaxSem's user page has this notice "I am not infallible. Regardless of any policies to the contrary, feel free to revert any admin actions I have performed if you believe them to be mistaken or unwise." Maybe another administrator will do the sensible thing and unblock. RMHED (talk) 21:58, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

• I have unblocked, per comments above and absence of opposition. As this is my first 'real' unblock, I encourage other admins to review it. Cenarium 22:04, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Though it's pretty clear the block was a bad one, you did comment above disagreeing with the block, so unblocking may not have been the most neutral thing to do. Could have been left up to an uninvolved admin. Just some thoughts. -- How do you turn this on (talk) 22:09, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes you really should have waited until an admin who agreed with the block had a sudden funny turn and decided to unblock. Come on now, surely any admin who unblocks is by definition disagreeing with the block, let common sense prevail. RMHED (talk) 22:15, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but they are also agreeing with the agreement here (i.e. consensus). It's not a big deal though. Just something to bear in mind next time. Best wishes, -- How do you turn this on (talk) 22:18, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

I realize it would have been best in an ideal situation. But I don't think the level of contention was high enough so that we needed to wait for a consensus and an uninvolved admin to review all this. I commented indeed, but was not involved previously. There is no such requirements for an unblock, policy makes also the case that when the blocking admin can't be reached and unblock is considered reasonable, there's no problem in doing so. Additionally, the statement at MaxSem's user page is quite unambiguous. Cenarium 22:26, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Shall we mark this as resolved then? Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 22:27, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm not too sure. Ceoil still might have problems regarding his block log. Though there's nothing that any admin can do about that. -- How do you turn this on (talk) 22:35, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

There are extensions allowing to remove entries from a log, they haven't been implemented on Misplaced Pages yet, though. Cenarium 22:40, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

The block log issue is mere vanity, not something we should concern ourselves with. John Reaves 22:47, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

vanity? Jesus fucking christ, I'm a person, I dont hide who I am and this record is peramenent. iys this flippancy that brings us here. Ceoil 01:27, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

I just think you're being overly sensitive about it. Must just be my personality. I know I wouldn't care. Since this isn't a constructive conversation, I see no need to pursue it. John Reaves 01:36, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Beg to differ. Perhaps if you knew the full history of Ceoil's block log, you'd understand why. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:51, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

John Reaves, if that's your opinion (and it is just that) then your best option is to filibuster any proposal to implement it. Everyme 22:54, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

I hope the collateral damage that is accruing from AN and AN/I piling on (followed usually by quick archiving, where the issues get swept under the rug) is beginning to be noticed across the board. We lost Yannismarou a few days ago; Ceoil and Yannis have worked together, saving featured stars, for years. Some content contributors are justifiably on edge. JayHenry and Ceoil have joked on each other's talk pages for years, and the first unfortunate block (in error), added to the other frustrations, provide context for the rest of the incident. Please, a plea for more studied and careful admin decisions and discussions here, remembering that some editors do value their content contributions here and care what kind of "stuff" is written in their block log, in place of some hasty and unfortunate discussions we've been seeing lately at AN and AN/I. Ceoil's block log is irretrievably damaged now, and that is utterly unfair to someone who has contributed as much as he has (and I don't need to tally to know that when you add together FAC and FAR, he's number one). Once again, my plea that we need higher and even stricter standards at RfA, because the damage caused by this kind of escalation will affect content. Significantly. Take time to study the background and inquire around before hitting the block button. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:49, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Sorry Sandy, I don't buy the argument that stricter RFA standards make better admins. Some of the project's worst admins sailed through RFA without a problem at all (think Archtransit). There's nothing we can do to stop bad admin actions, because believe it or not, admins are human, and make mistakes :-) Making RFA stricter will be damaging to people who would possibly make excellent admins, but fail for trivial reasons. That's our loss then. How were you feeling in your recent nomination of Moni3, when he/she had all those opposes? Do you think that makes them a bad admin? Making RFA stricter won't remove mistakes. -- How do you turn this on (talk) 22:53, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

It's a perfect reason to implement a process (OMFG WP:CREEP!!) to desysop not only in the most blatantly egregious of cases, but also e.g. where good-faith mistakes begin to accumulate. Not talking about Tan by any means, but there are those cases. Unfortunately, the most recent attempt to create such a process was shot down again by the status quo vanguard. Everyme 22:57, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't understand, the log has an explanatory note, correct? I don't see how this damages anyone. John Reaves 22:59, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Are you replying to my comment? Everyme 23:07, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

In block matters, progress can be made. Civility blocks on long-standing editors have often caused more harm than good. Requiring substantial warnings before blocking would help. Asking the user to take a break before that would be even better. There are two ways to make it "clearer" to admins: in MediaWiki:Blockiptext, and in the blocking policy. The blocking policy at the present reads: "A block for disruption may be necessary in response to: (...) *persistent gross incivility". Warnings are discussed in this section. However, there is no specific discussion on blocks of longstanding contributors. Those are rare, but they are the most heard-of, by far. Cenarium 23:48, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

I would also hope to see two things here: 1) do not archive this mess away until others have a chance to respond, that is happening all too often here, and 2) please restore the section heading that was here originally. It is utterly unfair for Ceoil's block log to include the words "prick", yet our ears and eyes are too sensitive for that word to be used here on AN/I. The irony is too hard to miss. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:00, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

The current header is inaccurate enough, since no one called Ceoil a "prick". -- How do you turn this on (talk) 23:04, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Just call me nobody; ah, well. Enough admin drahmaz for one day. I guess someone will find time to write some articles for the mainpage. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:11, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Cool, me too. That's some fuzzy math Everyme. John Reaves 23:22, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, right. And your calling the changing of the section header "censor" is 100% accurate, according to your best judgement as based on the best of your knowledge. Everyme 00:31, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

I hope so. I replied to your comments twice above, but you didn't respond. -- How do you turn this on (talk) 23:13, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Please, no need for drama on this. The original header was "Unblock problems", would someone object to restore it ? Cenarium 23:16, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Done. Gwen Gale (talk) 23:18, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Not nobody, I just overlooked your comment. At any rate, sorry Sandy that I didn't notice you objected the "censorship" — which I feel it isn't, it's just avoiding gratuitous strong language in the section title which could only serve to turn up the heat. I'm just a little model citizen, being concerned about civility as always (and nothing butt). Everyme 23:22, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

• We can discuss changes to the blocking policy at WT:BLOCK. There is no point in letting the thread open now. Cenarium 23:56, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

• No, not really. Just wanted to add that I personally regard "fucker" as not such bad a word to call another user. "Non-fucker", which probably applies to roughly half of all Wikipedians (and that's a liberal estimate) would be far worse. Just my last 2 cents on this. Everyme 00:16, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Ha ha ha... Hey wait, that wasn't funny. GoodDay (talk) 00:18, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Reply to "How do you" futher above. Way to miss the point there boy. An honest mistake was made and it was no problem, and I asked that the block be tweaked to reflect this. Instead I was described as a prick, and the admin later tried to ungraciusly hide the fact. I can live with either a mistaken block or a misjudged summary, but this prick is denying cupability, and lied to me. So yeah, in responce i called him a "fucker". That is what he is from what I have seen. Ceoil 01:17, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Too Much Information... Anyway, why not just let it go at this point? Everyme 01:41, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

You missed the whole point. It cant be let go! It will always be there. I have given how many hours to this website and now am a prick. And we should just let it go at this point? No he should be dysopped for multiple and (mis) calculated errors. Ceoil 01:54, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

No one called you a prick, at any time Ceoil. -- How do you turn this on (talk) 01:58, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Tan's block summary was not great, but he did not call you a prick, Ceoil. He was quoting you jokingly calling JayHenry a prick and twat. - auburnpilot talk 02:05, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

(ec) Personally, I think you should just let this one slide, How do you turn this on: the comment in the block log read "misunderstanding? I have misgivings - 'prick', 'twat', etc - but per JayHenry". (Sorry for reposting it here, but there's enough bad language being thrown around to make reporting it for clarity less of a problem than normal). I wouldn't read that as saying that he was a prick, but I can see how someone else might reasonably see it differently. You may be right, but the real issue is that (in so far as the block log is concerned) Ceoil felt personally insulted by that summary, and we should respect that. I always make the assumption that if someone feels insulted or harrassed, then they are - even if the intent wasn't to do so, or if someone else wouldn't have felt (or read it) the same way. If there is more to discuss here then so be it, but the precise manner in which "prick" was used doesn't seem to me to be something worth focusing on now. - Bilby (talk) 02:13, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

How Do You Turn This On, you correctly noted above that I hadn't responded to several of your earlier posts. I considered them off topic and a distraction, reflecting an incompelte understanding of the entire situation and typifying the very problems with ANI of which I speak. Since you are still going, and your posts here and elsewhere are risking rubbing more salt into Ceoil's wounds, and risking another upset, I am going to re-engage and try to say this as politely as I can. Please stop. You are not adding light; you are adding heat and exasperation. Please disengage from this thread; walk away, find something else to do. If you can't understand that having a block log that says "prick" is as hurtful to Ceoil as it would be to most of our excellent content contributors, then please try not to add to the frustration. Your posts to this thread and elsewhere are not helping calm the situation. Thanks, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:17, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

• Aw hell, here we go again...ahem: SandyGeorgia, Yannismarou was an admin who escalated a minor edit conflict between himself and a well-intentioned newbie to the point of mutual incivility. When the user posted on ANI mentioning his WP:BITEy comments, he flew into even more of a rage and left several rambling, exclamation-mark heavy screeds about how the newb was messing with his work and got what he had coming. The newbie, who claimed to be a published expert in the field, immediately left the project in disgust. Please, please, please don't get that issue restarted. If he stays away until he can control his temper and not drive away inexperienced editors that he has minor edit conflicts with, everyone is better off. If that point is never, so be it. There should not be any 500-lb. gorillas or sacred Brahmas at Misplaced Pages. I don't think I want to volunteer on a Project that assigns a carte blanche to anyone with FA-experience that enables them to to run around slapping people with their belt buckles on public message boards when they get a bit pissy about something.

Ceoil is another excellent FA-level article writer, and one who had a legitimate and actionable complaint; he is also being blatantly and grossly incivil and refusing to get the point that the issue's been dealt with already. Only a dev can delete an edit summary, and unless things have changed, they only do it under exceptional circumstances, like personal info or gross libel in a blocksum. Tanthalas39 made a pretty big mistake, followed by a smaller one, which he publically admitted, apologized profusely for, and attempted to rectify as best the tools allowed. A corrective blocksum was left, officially absolving Ceoil of any fault...what else is there to talk about? Ceoil is a good editor, like Yannis was a good editor, but I'll be damned if I'll sit here mutely while editors toss craven personal attacks across the administrators' noticeboard just because they're angry. Part of being an adult is learning to control your anger, and part of being a good editor (or, god-forbid, an administrator!) is learning that yes, the rules really do apply to you too! Or they should, anyway. Some people seem awfully fond of making excuses for gross and obvious incivility from their friends while they demand indefblocks for incivility for editors they don't like. If you think calling an admin a "fucker" on the administrators' noticeboard after he just apologized to you is acceptable, you need to find a new Wiki to edit. Bullzeye 02:05, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

No no no. He made a mistake, we made an agreement to let it go, and then he deliberalty fucked me in responding to my request to tweak the block log. Thats no error - thats a 'deliberate sabatoage' of another editor's repurtation. Well, how hard is this to inderstand? Ceoil 02:25, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

I think you mean this agreement from 16:15 ? Sadly, the problematic log entry was issued at 15:17, when Tan still thought you were harassing JayHenry (3 minutes after the first block). Cenarium 02:54, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

This thread has all of the classics of AN and ANI's finest: memes get started, and repeated here with no basis in fact, and then a frenzy is whipped up, and someone ends up blocked. And who is asking anyone to sit here and ignore incivility, btw? This is what ANI threads do; put words at the ends of people's fingertips that were never typed, spread accusations with no diffs, and spread memes that sometimes have as much inaccuracy as fact. <sigh> Is it worth trying to swim against the tide of misinformation and asking the mob to think before they act? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:14, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

What words that were never typed? What accusations with no diffs? What misinformation? Here's Ceoil calling Tan a liar and a fucker on AN 1, and here's him calling Tan a liar and a prick, also on AN 2, both of which were made after Tan's apology to him for improperly blocking him. Did I miss something? I was pretty sure we gave people blocks for that kind of thing. At least that's what the policy says... Bullzeye 02:45, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Then you need to reread policy, it says 'persistent gross incivility', and counsels, then warnings should be issued prior to a block. Cenarium 02:54, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

What happened here

User:Geogre/Comic. When will folks learn that we are here to write an encyclopedia, not play games with live people? There is a person behind that username. Don't block before you know what's going on, and not unless you are thoroughly convinced that a block will withstand review. Don't reblock if the person blows off steam about getting blocked. Every day another one of our top writers gets run off the project because of civility hysteria. It's a terrible shame. Jehochman 02:26, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Or, alternately, we could draw a big, dark line in crayon that says "No cursing people out on AN, regardless of how mad you are or how many articles you've written" and then enforce it equally for everyone. But yeah, a stilted, factional, faux-meritocracy works well, too. Bullzeye 02:49, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Broken AFD entry at Sanford_Holst

I should know how to fix this but I don't. I used Twinkle by the way. The deletion discussion at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Sanford Holst is showing up as a red link, and when you look at the template via edit it says 'keep'. Thanks. Doug Weller (talk) 16:58, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

That's actually fairly common. It's not a problem with Twinkle or how you did anything. Sometimes it just takes a while for the MediaWiki software to catch up and realize that the AFD discussion page has actually been created and display it as a bluelink instead of a redlink. Purging the cache of the page with the AFD template on it fixes the problem too. If you'll look at Sanford Holst now you'll see that nobody has edited the article, but the discussion page is now a bluelink. Heh, unless I'm misunderstanding your problem. Ioeth _{(talk contribs friendly)} 17:19, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Or just press the Refresh button in the browser. OhanaUnited 18:16, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

It was actually someone else who mentioned it. Thanks for the explanations. Doug Weller (talk) 19:36, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Help regarding User.

Hi. I noticed User:Smiv's page included material that isn't exactly normal for a User Page. However, this is his only edit and I am unsure whether the page qualifies for an MfD. Can anyone assist? \ / (⁂) 02:36, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Policy is that users have considerable laxity over their own user pages; at present, all we can do is to assume good faith and that this editor is who he claims to be (although there is nothing to indicate a real-life identity), and if he wants to out himself, that is his affair. On the other hand, if the account is created as an attack, it is insufficently specific to be effective. I wouldn't worry unless disruption ensues. You may want to drop a {{ANI}}on his talk page, but I wouldn't expect much to follow. --Rodhullandemu 03:23, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Did you know

Can someone please update Did You Know, it's two hours overdue. Thanks very much! -- How do you turn this on (talk) 02:51, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

 Done by Royalbroil (talk · contribs). Now resolved, thanks, – RyanCross (talk) 07:21, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Saw VI?

So.. Saw VI has been confirmed; details are Saw V#Sequel. Problem is that Saw VI, the article, has been salted since last August for WP:CRYSTAL. Can it be unprotected and linked? We're eventually going to have to create an article on it. — HelloAnnyong 05:56, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

It seems odd to me that it would be salted as long as there hadn't been multiple attempts to recreate it. I see no such attempts. in the deletion log of the page. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 07:17, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

The reasons appear to be explained in the AFD. In any event, per HelloAnnyong's reasoning, I've unsalted it. Note that RFPP is thataway, though, for future reference. Sarcasticidealist (talk) 07:44, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Proposed granting of Oversight to Jayvdb

The Arbitration Committee is considering granting Oversight access to:

• Jayvdb (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
  (also known on-wiki as "John Vandenberg")

Comments and impressions of an impartial and salient nature are invited from the community, prior to finalizing any decision, and may be submitted by email only to FT2 (email) or any of the members of the Arbitration Committee for circulation amongst the sitting arbitrators.

Users submitting their views should be prepared to discuss those views thoughtfully and carefully with Arbitrators. All people who e-mail FT2 will have their emails forwarded to the Arbitration Committee impartially, and exactly as written.

Please note that this is one of the most serious matters within the remit of the Arbitration Committee, and the final decision does therefore rest with the Arbitration Committee alone. The background to this post is below, in some detail, since many users are unfamiliar with Oversight. Please send any e-mails promptly, as we hope to make a decision within the next few days.

For the Arbitration Committee,

FT2  07:41, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Click "Show" for background

Oversight (Misplaced Pages:Oversight) is a form of extreme deletion, used for posted private information and defamatory material that should not be accessible even to administrators. It is also used (although rarely) by Wikimedia Office for certain copyright matters that cannot be adequately addressed any other way. As such, it is essential that Oversight is promptly responded to - ideally only minutes from being reported, although that can vary. Oversighters on a wiki also have access to the Oversight log, which allows them to check the validity of other oversights - and they often do. Oversight is not a time consuming role; rather it is responsiveness and trust that is the issue. The Arbitration Committee recently polled all enwiki users with Oversight access, and also the Oversight mailing list, to check whether our coverage of Oversight was adequate. It was decided to appoint one or more Oversighters from Australia/New Zealand/Far East, or similar time zones, to re-enforce our coverage across all time zones. Jayvdb (talk · contribs) is seen as an excellent candidate. He is a long term and highly trusted Wikipedian, active across many projects and in Wikimedia Australia, and well known for the quality of his work and his complete integrity as a hard working Wiki editor and administrator. He is already identified to Office as a Checkuser on English Wikisource. He has an excellent sense of discretion, as evidenced in the cross-wiki "Poetlister" case, where due to the above, he (along with Rlevse) was one of the main non-arbitrators trusted to be "in the loop" for consultation and discussion purposes. The addition of Oversight access is seen as suiting him well, as Oversight requests require a high level of trust and responsiveness but are not likely to take time from his activities on this and other projects. Internal voting on the provisional decision has reached 8 votes in support, including one inactive Arbitrator, and no opposes. (Views are awaited from FayssalF, Kirill, Morven, and Sam Blacketer.) This posting to the community has therefore been proposed and seconded. FT2  07:41, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Maybe you should give him back his ArbCom clerk position? --NE2 08:01, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

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