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Revision as of 20:17, 17 December 2007

Skepticism Start‑class

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Long paragraph at end

What is with the little paragraph at the very end, after the link section? It seems rather random and a little out of place.192.211.25.44 23:35, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. The person who wrote that paragraph may have had only good intentions, but the paragraph was about calcium's role in the body. If it belongs in Misplaced Pages at all, it should be in the article "calcium" or "bone" but not this one. Also, it looks like the paragraph was taken word-for-word out of a health book or something. I took care of it - thanks for bringing it to our attention. ZZYZX 20:57, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

External links

I see no reason to limit the number of links based upon any of the criteria Levine2112 has given in his many edits. -- Ronz  20:30, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Links normally to be avoided from WP:EL:

Any site that misleads the reader by use of factually inaccurate material or unverifiable research. See Reliable sources for explanations of the terms "factually inaccurate material" or "unverifiable research".

Quackwatch is an unreliable source designed to mislead its readers.

From Wp:el#Avoid_undue_weight_on_particular_points_of_view:

On articles with multiple points of view, the number of links dedicated to one point of view should not overwhelm the number dedicated to other equal points of view, nor give undue weight to minority views. Add comments to these links informing the reader of their point of view. If one point of view dominates informed opinion, that should be represented first.

From WP:NOT#LINK:

Mere collections of external links or Internet directories. There is nothing wrong with adding one or more useful content-relevant links to an article; however, excessive lists can dwarf articles and detract from the purpose of Misplaced Pages.

From WP:WEIGHT:

To give undue weight to a significant-minority view, or to include a tiny-minority view, might be misleading as to the shape of the dispute. Misplaced Pages aims to present competing views in proportion to their representation among experts on the subject, or among the concerned parties. This applies not only to article text, but to images, external links, categories, and all other material as well.

Finally, be wary of WP:3RR:

An editor must not perform more than three reverts, in whole or in part, on a single page within a 24-hour period. A revert means undoing the actions of another editor, whether involving the same or different material each time.

-- Levine2112 20:40, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I've given you a 3rr warning for your editwarring. -- Ronz  20:51, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

As I you. -- Levine2112 20:52, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

I see that one editor has 2 reverts and started this discussion. I see another editor that has 3 reverts and began contributing to this discussion at the same time as making the third revert. -- Ronz  21:06, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Your initial edit today was a revert. Thus 3 reverts. It's okay. It's the fourth revert that'll get you. No worries though. Just address my concerns above. That's what really needs to happen here. -- Levine2112 21:17, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes it is okay. Too bad you felt the need to give an warning in retaliation.

So you're already withdrawing all of the concerns in your edit summaries? -- Ronz  21:45, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Please remain civil here and just see if you can satisfy the concerns I have listed in this conversation. BTW, my edit summary was deletion per WP:EL which I list above. Thanks! -- Levine2112 23:25, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

So you're withdrawing most of the concerns in your edit summaries? -- Ronz  16:00, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't understand what you are getting at. Both of my edit summaries were in regard to WP:EL. I deal with two WP:EL concerns above. Please address them if you want to reinstitute the link. If not, can we move on? -- Levine2112 17:08, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm waiting for other editors to comment. -- Ronz  17:13, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Critic Tidbit

I added a tidbit to the article. This should resolve this matter. Thanx. :) - Mr.Gurü (/_contribs) 19:15, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Other sources/links to consider

• "Alert! Coral Calcium Supplements Scam" -- Ronz  16:02, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
• "Spotlight on Coral Calcium" -- Ronz  16:05, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
• "Counting on Coral Calcium?" (probably too ad-heavy with too little content) -- Ronz  16:07, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
• "Coral Calcium Scams " -- Ronz  16:10, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
• "The Evidence About Okinawa Coral Calcium Supplements" -- Ronz  16:11, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
• "Coral Calcium – The answer to how do you spell HYPE?" -- Ronz  16:13, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

We have three links already that suggest that Coral Calcium is a scam and no links saying otherwise. I think we should either have some sort of positive links (if any exist!) to balance of the point of view or just select one or two of the best quality, most reliable negative links. Either suggestion will help satisfy WP:WEIGHT. Having a list of only negative links will certainly throw this article into WP:NPOV violation. -- Levine2112 17:11, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

BTW, from what I've read, I think the benefits of Coral calcium have been over-hyped. But my opinion really doesn't matter in terms of writing this article. So, if there are any secondary-sources touting these benefits, I think the article would be vastly improved to show both sides of the argument (thus satisfying WP:WEIGHT). Right now, the article seems a bit one-sided. -- Levine2112 18:52, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Ronz, you can add another external link of your choice to the article. There are very few references or externals. :) - Mr.Gurü (/_contribs) 19:32, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Here's a suggestion that often works - if you want those articles lin ked to, use them as references if they support a fact stated in the article. You can always add to the article using brief block quotes from the articles if the quotes are on point and enhance the article. This article could use some more references.LiPollis 22:05, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Moved from article for discussion

However, though carbonate may leave the body rather quickly, the calcium component continues to provide pH level support throughout the body. It facilitates the body's natural balancing of serum pH. Generally speaking, the increased presence of calcium denotes a higher pH level. Also, though the pH level of the blood itself varies only slightly, body tissues and organs can become dangerously acidic if the body is depleted of pH balancing minerals. In a deficient state, the body allocates it's mineral resources to the blood to keep the body alive. The pH balancing properties of coral calcium may be most helpful in more remote regions like the ears, nose, sinuses, and throat.

If you use, or are planning to use coral calcium supplements, please take a reasonable dose, as the kidneys may be affected negatively by extreme doses. In cases of therapeutic use, it is wise to avoid green tea, and other sources of oxalate. Kidney stones may develop otherwise.

--Ronz (talk) 22:37, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

As I understand it, the first paragraph is inaccurate, though it the inaccurate information that the coral calcium proponents suggest. The second paragraph is inappropriate for inclusion because it's a how-to (See WP:NOT#HOWTO). --Ronz (talk) 22:40, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Warren Says: "The second paragraph is inappropriate for inclusion because it's a how-to" - This is not a How-To, it is a health warning. It is our duty to protect the general public from overuse of a health related chemical, if it is within our power to do so. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.36.201.161 (talk) 02:20, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

I've removed the slightly changed version that was added again by the same editor, as none of my concerns have been addressed. --Ronz (talk) 02:21, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

It is imperative that this article be balanced immediately. Quackwatch is a notoriously biased and inappropriate source for Misplaced Pages . Though the information I gave may not be satisfactory to certain people, it is cited properly, and reasonable considering the fact that it is widely held throughout the medical community that calcium is required and beneficial to the human body. For the benefit of all those who read this article, I added this stop gap to balance the article. Please feel free to change the contribution as new information comes to light. If this article is not balanced immediately it should be deleted by TPTB. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.36.201.161 (talk) 01:40, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

If you would like to delete the article, see WP:AFD --Ronz (talk) 01:47, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Would you like me to start the AFD instead, or have you changed your mind? --Ronz (talk) 02:18, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Fine with me as long as it is balanced. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.36.201.161 (talk) 02:22, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Another paragraph moved from article for discussion

On the other hand, "Proper calcium intake may reduce the incidence of colon and rectal cancers through forming insoluble soaps with some mild carcinogens produced in the body, including bile acids and free, ionized fatty acids." - Elson M. Haas M.D.

This appears to be a poorly supported WP:FRINGE theory. --Ronz (talk) 02:21, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

This is not a statement of fact, merely a comment that this is a respected doctor's belief about coral calcium based on his experiences. You must also realise that wikipedia does not solely cater to empirical data.

BTW, Elson M. Haas, MD, is the founder and director of the Preventive Medical Center of Marin in San Rafael, California, one of the leading integrated healthcare facilities in the country. He is the author of several popular health and nutrition books, including THE NEW DETOX DIET, STAYING HEALTHY WITH THE SEASONS, and THE FALSE FAT DIET. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.36.201.161 (talk) 01:29, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for taking the time to respond here. I already pointed out WP:FRINGE with regard to this entry. As this is a medical claim that Haas is making, it should be supported by peer-reviewed medical research at least. --Ronz (talk) 01:45, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

"alkalinizing agents such as CaCO3 are ingested, the body promptly excretes the alkaline components in urine." This statement is scientifically inaccurate. When alkalinizing agents are ingested, they react almost instantly with stomach acid to form water and a salt, in this case a calcium salt. This, in effect neutralizes the acid and allows the calcium to be readily absorbed by the intestines. The excess alkaline molecules are then expelled from the body, leaving the body in a less acidic state than it was. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.36.201.161 (talk) 02:13, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

And the source of this information is? --Ronz (talk) 02:19, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

discussion doesn't require citations, does it? anyway : Neutralization It's basic Chemistry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.36.201.161 (talk) 02:27, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Basic chemistry fails to describe what's going on, hence the need for Biochemistry. --Ronz (talk) 02:37, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Medical Information

"not a reliable source for medical information - see talk" Ronz, If you have reason to believe that Elson M. Haas MD is not a reliable source, please shed some light. Magnonimous (talk) 01:29, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Already did above on 01:45, 12 December 2007 (UTC). --Ronz (talk) 17:41, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

'The above study also states: "In our study, supplemental calcium intake was significantly associated with decreased risk even among participants with low dietary calcium intake".' This is not irrelevant and off topic, it proves that a decreased risk of colon and rectal cancer is a health benefit of coral calcium. Since it was written in the Possible Health Benefits section, how is it off topic? Magnonimous (talk) 01:29, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

It's not specific to coral calcium. It's specific to low dietary calcium intake though, which is not the topic of this article. It proves nothing, as it is a single study. --Ronz (talk) 19:13, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

"In our study, SUPPLEMENTAL CALCIUM intake was significantly associated...", This means calcium supplements including coral calcium. Magnonimous (talk) 01:29, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

In case that doesn't satisfy you: "The extended follow-up and better assessment of long-term diet through multiple dietary assessments in these two cohorts allowed us to increase the statistical power to examine moderate associations, to assess dietary and supplemental calcium separately". This study clearly both draws a distinction between dietary and supplemental calcium intake, and takes them both into account. Magnonimous (talk) 22:40, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

"" - You are taking this thing way too literally man. The founders of Misplaced Pages could not require that all articles, including basic interpretations of published works, be completely quoted from published material. That's a violation of copyright law. Content that violates any copyright will be deleted. Magnonimous (talk) 01:29, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

"It proves nothing, as it is a single study" --- You're incorrect, the article was written by five researchers, three of which are prominent doctors, and obviously satisfies your personal requirement of peer-reviewed medical research. Magnonimous (talk) 22:30, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Sorry I wasn't clear. We need to cite medical consensus, rather than cherry picking studies. The studies of course have to be peer reviewed, which was my first objection to the Haas reference. --Ronz (talk) 23:35, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Proof of consensus: "Our results suggest that calcium may be protective against colorectal cancer development even at a lower consumption level compared to Western populations" - Dietary intake of calcium, fiber and other micronutrients in relation to colorectal cancer risk: Results from the Shanghai Women's Health Study (Vanderbilt University Medical Center, Nashville, TN/Shanghai Cancer Institute, Shanghai, China) Magnonimous (talk) 01:29, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Calcium May Protect Women from Colorectal Cancer. University of Minnesota Academic Health Center Magnonimous (talk) 03:35, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

"Conclusion: High calcium intake, particularly from supplements, is associated with a reduced risk of distal colorectal adenoma" Calcium intake and colorectal adenoma in a US colorectal cancer early detection program - American Journal Of Clinical Nutrition Magnonimous (talk) 03:41, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

This is WP:OR of cherry picking studies and saying they prove medical consensus. --Ronz (talk) 17:48, 15 December 2007 (UTC) --- ( Not WP:OR, as work has been published. ) Magnonimous (talk) 02:12, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

"Medical consensus" sounds an awful lot like majority opinion to me. WP:FRINGE clearly states "Misplaced Pages maintains a non-negotiable principle of neutral point of view in which all significant views are represented fairly and without bias, with representation in proportion to their prominence". Clearly the minority(or what is perceived by some to be minority) must also be represented fairly. Magnonimous (talk) 01:29, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

But that's not what I meant. I mean that we follow NPOV and FRINGE by not cherry-picking articles. --Ronz (talk) 18:35, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

The article is now balanced, (Satisfies NPOV); Journal of the National Cancer Institute is a respected source in the medical community, (covers FRINGE) Magnonimous (talk) 02:12, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

More Studies

New England Journal of Medicine, January 14th 1999; 340(2):101-7.

Content forking

As it currently stands (or as it did before I removed it) the section on health benefits is a content fork. Studies on any purported health benefits of calcium belong on the calcium article or on the articles of the specific forms of calcium purported by the provided references to yield health benefits. The only information that belongs on this article is information that is specific to coral calcium. Someguy1221 (talk) 08:24, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree. --Ronz (talk) 17:36, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Content forking refers specifically to creating New articles to bypass WP:NPOV. This information is contained in the intended article. Also, these studies explicitly refer to calcium supplementation, which includes coral calcium. Magnonimous (talk) 18:21, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Unless they actually mention coral calcium, that is your own personal opinion. "John says calcium supplements benefit health, Bob says coral calcium is a calcium supplement, therefore coral calcium benefits health." This is the exact type of argument prohibited as original synthesis. Someguy1221 (talk) 20:14, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

TRUCE: RONZ / MAGNONIMOUS

Ronz I would like to call a truce.

Here's how I see things now:

I believe Coral Calcium is beneficial to health. My own experience has been that coral calcium has boosted my immune system. At least three times in the past, I have started to take it when I catch a cold. My symptoms have almost vanished completely after two days of supplementation, on at least three separate occasions. This may not be medical proof, but it has dissuaded my skepticism.

I DO believe that coral calcium is overpriced, and I am NOT yet convinced that it can cure cancer, I'm with you on that score. However, the studies deserve credit in that they seem to show that we're on the right track, that we might find a cancer cure if we figure out how calcium works against cancer, and find something that works better.

You believe that Coral-Calcium Is overblown, hype, that doesn't deserve any more credit than blistex does in curing anything. You believe that Robert Barefoot and Carl J. Reich MD are fabricating studies and lying about calcium in order to make a profit. You don't believe that calcium has healing properties, just that it is required by the body in some way.

Your views are covered in the article unquestioned. Mine are not.

I will agree not to add any more to the article. You will agree not to erase any more from the article. WE WILL STOP EDIT WARRING! WE WILL DISCUSS CONSTRUCTIVE WAYS TO IMPROVE THE ARTICLE!

Do you agree to these terms as they are read above???

Magnonimous (talk) 20:09, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

1. Elson M. Haas M.D. - Staying Healthy with Nutrition: The Complete Guide to Diet and Nutritional Medicine

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