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Revision as of 00:38, 17 September 2024 editCinderella157 (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users, Rollbackers18,576 edits →Requested move 12 September 2024: add← Previous edit		Revision as of 00:53, 17 September 2024 edit undoSnowFire (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers26,462 edits →Requested move 12 September 2024 Next edit →
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	* '''Oppose''' per nominator's own ngrams which show a clear preference for capitalization. ] (]) 19:57, 12 September 2024 (UTC)		* '''Oppose''' per nominator's own ngrams which show a clear preference for capitalization. ] (]) 19:57, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
	*: A light apparent majority, caused by not weeding out title-case headlines, is not our standard. Consistently capitalized in independent RS is out standard. You know this. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — ] ] ] 😼 </span> 20:10, 14 September 2024 (UTC)		*: A light apparent majority, caused by not weeding out title-case headlines, is not our standard. Consistently capitalized in independent RS is out standard. You know this. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — ] ] ] 😼 </span> 20:10, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
			*:: {{ping\|SMcCandlish}} No, I know that the standard you prefer (as does Tony) is that MOS:CAPS suggests de-capitalizing if essentially anyone is found who might not capitalize it. And sometimes not even that (I've seen you argue that the Misplaced Pages MOS is so "powerful" that sources don't matter, which is simply a standard very few Misplaced Pages editors agree with.). You know that I, and many other Misplaced Pages editors, disagree with your interpretation; in fact it forms the basis of many of your complaints about "over capitalization" (who is doing the over-capitalization? It's not gremlins, it's other Misplaced Pages editors.). I support you being able to voice your views; I suggest you accept that other people can have a difference of opinion and voice their views, rather than being capital-W Wrong.
			*:: For the record, I am not some sort of reverse pro-capital letters extremist. Hell, I just just a month or so ago. There are plenty of times I grudgingly think you're right, just I don't generally need to bother to vote in those cases because the anti-capitals crowd usually has good turnout at RM. But this case is quite straightforward: usage shows sources prefer capital R. Ergo Misplaced Pages also should use capital R. It is as simple as that. ] (]) 00:53, 17 September 2024 (UTC)
	*'''Comment''' per ]: "only words and phrases that are consistently capitalized in a ''substantial majority'' of independent, reliable sources are capitalized in Misplaced Pages ." Ngrams tend to over-report capitalisation since they do not distinguish things like headings, captions or the titles of works in citations that normally use title case. Allowing for this, we see a slight majority for the capitalised form but not a substantial majority required by MOS:CAPS. ] (]) 22:42, 12 September 2024 (UTC)		*'''Comment''' per ]: "only words and phrases that are consistently capitalized in a ''substantial majority'' of independent, reliable sources are capitalized in Misplaced Pages ." Ngrams tend to over-report capitalisation since they do not distinguish things like headings, captions or the titles of works in citations that normally use title case. Allowing for this, we see a slight majority for the capitalised form but not a substantial majority required by MOS:CAPS. ] (]) 22:42, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
	* '''Support''' per ], ]. This is not consistently capitalized in independent reliable sources. Here's a better N-gram which should reduce some (not all) inclusion of title-case headlines, constrained to pertinent date ranges. It notably shows that "Iranian revolution" was overwhelmingly preferred until {{em\|after}} WP had an article on the subject using "Iranian Revolution", so the present lean toward capital R is clearly a case of citogenesis. And it doesn't constitute consistent capitalization in independent RS anyway. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — ] ] ] 😼 </span> 20:10, 14 September 2024 (UTC)		* '''Support''' per ], ]. This is not consistently capitalized in independent reliable sources. Here's a better N-gram which should reduce some (not all) inclusion of title-case headlines, constrained to pertinent date ranges. It notably shows that "Iranian revolution" was overwhelmingly preferred until {{em\|after}} WP had an article on the subject using "Iranian Revolution", so the present lean toward capital R is clearly a case of citogenesis. And it doesn't constitute consistent capitalization in independent RS anyway. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — ] ] ] 😼 </span> 20:10, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
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	*:::Indeed, we have fixed a lot of over-capitalized terms in recent years. ] (]) 00:25, 17 September 2024 (UTC)		*:::Indeed, we have fixed a lot of over-capitalized terms in recent years. ] (]) 00:25, 17 September 2024 (UTC)
	*:To quote {{U\|SnowFire}} in the RM to capitalse ] on an argument of consistency (see ), {{tq\|As I've said before, this is an invalid rationale. There is ''zero expectation'' that capitalization of the word "revolution" be consistent across all articles, nor should there be; Misplaced Pages should follow the capitalization used in the sources.}} ] (]) 00:37, 17 September 2024 (UTC)		*:To quote {{U\|SnowFire}} in the RM to capitalse ] on an argument of consistency (see ), {{tq\|As I've said before, this is an invalid rationale. There is ''zero expectation'' that capitalization of the word "revolution" be consistent across all articles, nor should there be; Misplaced Pages should follow the capitalization used in the sources.}} ] (]) 00:37, 17 September 2024 (UTC)
			*:: (To be clear, I'm opposing this RM on the nom's argument, so fair enough for Cinderella to quote me in favor. For the record, I stand by what I wrote above - I don't think CONSISTENT is strong grounds for anything. Every evolution needs to stand or fall on its own merits. Just... this case is one where there's obviously plenty of support in sources for a capital, so let's go with that.) ] (]) 00:53, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

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Revert with odd edit summary

LouisAragon, if you can 'find a plethore of sources that dismiss the "broadening of education and healthcare" stuff', why have you not done so? If you disbelieve that the broadening of education and healthcare 'is a IRI project, and not a continuation of the Shah's policies', why have you not challenged this with evidence to the contrary? There ought to be a mention of the Revolution's effect on domestic policy in the lead, and a one-sentence summary of a section of the main text is hardly burdening the lead with excessive text. Stara Marusya (talk) 07:49, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

The two sources didn't support that statement anyways . It was also quite vague, as it claimed this alleged "success" occurred "in recent years", yet the two cited sources were from 1994 and 2008, that's certainly not recent. The second source ironically didn't even talk about improvements under the IR, but the opposite, such as women "using their appearance and sexuality to fight the regime" and "Prospects for young people are not good and many graduates are lucky to get jobs as taxi drivers." --HistoryofIran (talk) 12:41, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

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Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 22:24, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

Hijab as a life-or-death issue

Since Hijab in Iran is a pivotal issue for Khamenei, it is logical to make it so in the article. 2601:C4:C300:2890:A5F3:AE3C:9723:E346 (talk) 17:10, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 12 September 2024

The request to rename this article to Iranian revolution has been carried out.

If the page title has consensus, be sure to close this discussion using {{subst:RM top|'''page moved'''.}} and {{subst:RM bottom}} and remove the {{Requested move/dated|…}} tag, or replace it with the {{subst:Requested move/end|…}} tag.

Iranian Revolution → Iranian revolution – Change to sentence case (WP:AT). Not consistently capped in sources - per WP:NCCAPS and MOS:CAPS. See here. Cinderella157 (talk) 09:37, 11 September 2024 (UTC) This is a contested technical request (permalink). Cinderella157 (talk) 03:18, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

Support lowercase per n-grams, which shows that it was majority lowercase when the article was created capped in 2003, and there's a minor trend to more capping since then, likely affected by WP, but not approaching a strong majority or the MOS:CAPS criterion of "consistently capitalized" in reliable sources. Dicklyon (talk) 04:41, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
Oppose - I've always seen this written in capitalised form. GoodDay (talk) 09:19, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
WP:IKNOWIT. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 20:10, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
Oppose per nominator's own ngrams which show a clear preference for capitalization. SnowFire (talk) 19:57, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
A light apparent majority, caused by not weeding out title-case headlines, is not our standard. Consistently capitalized in independent RS is out standard. You know this. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 20:10, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
@SMcCandlish: No, I know that the standard you prefer (as does Tony) is that MOS:CAPS suggests de-capitalizing if essentially anyone is found who might not capitalize it. And sometimes not even that (I've seen you argue that the Misplaced Pages MOS is so "powerful" that sources don't matter, which is simply a standard very few Misplaced Pages editors agree with.). You know that I, and many other Misplaced Pages editors, disagree with your interpretation; in fact it forms the basis of many of your complaints about "over capitalization" (who is doing the over-capitalization? It's not gremlins, it's other Misplaced Pages editors.). I support you being able to voice your views; I suggest you accept that other people can have a difference of opinion and voice their views, rather than being capital-W Wrong.

For the record, I am not some sort of reverse pro-capital letters extremist. Hell, I just did a non-controversial move away from capital letters just a month or so ago. There are plenty of times I grudgingly think you're right, just I don't generally need to bother to vote in those cases because the anti-capitals crowd usually has good turnout at RM. But this case is quite straightforward: usage shows sources prefer capital R. Ergo Misplaced Pages also should use capital R. It is as simple as that. SnowFire (talk) 00:53, 17 September 2024 (UTC)
Comment per MOS:CAPS: "only words and phrases that are consistently capitalized in a substantial majority of independent, reliable sources are capitalized in Misplaced Pages ." Ngrams tend to over-report capitalisation since they do not distinguish things like headings, captions or the titles of works in citations that normally use title case. Allowing for this, we see a slight majority for the capitalised form but not a substantial majority required by MOS:CAPS. Cinderella157 (talk) 22:42, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
Support per WP:NCCAPS, MOS:CAPS. This is not consistently capitalized in independent reliable sources. Here's a better N-gram which should reduce some (not all) inclusion of title-case headlines, constrained to pertinent date ranges. It notably shows that "Iranian revolution" was overwhelmingly preferred until after WP had an article on the subject using "Iranian Revolution", so the present lean toward capital R is clearly a case of citogenesis. And it doesn't constitute consistent capitalization in independent RS anyway. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 20:10, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
Support—SnowFire, please read MOSCAPS. There would have to be an overwhelming majority of cap usage: this is not the case. GoodDay, this is not a forum for vague recollections. Tony (talk) 01:21, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
Oppose per WP:CONSISTENT: "To the extent that it is practical, titles should be consistent among articles covering similar topics." The similar topics here would be American Revolution, French Revolution, Haitian Revolution, Mexican Revolution, Russian Revolution and so on. Ham II (talk) 07:07, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
No, the majority of conflict articles not have the descriptive term (revolution, war, battle, offensive, rebellion, uprising, etc., etc.) capitalized. You've just cherry-picked a tiny handful that happen to pass the "are consistently capitalized in independent reliable sources" test. You have fundamentally misunderstood WP:CONSISTENT. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 07:58, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

WP:CONSISTENT refers to patterns of naming. It invokes WP:TITLECON which explains that it refers to documented topic-specific conventions on article titles. WP:LOWERCASE (also part of WP:AT) tells use to use sentence case for article titles. There is nothing at WP:AT to suggest there are exceptions to this instruction. Invoking WP:CONSISTENT to suggest revolution should be capitalised in this article title misrepresents the spitit and intent of WP:AT and WP:CONSISTENT, in particular. However, even if this interpretation were given credence, there are articles where revolution is capitalised (because it is consistently capitalised in sources) and others, where it is lowercase. In short, there is no consistant capitalisation of revolution with which to be consistent. Cinderella157 (talk) 08:37, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
Oppose per WP:CONSISTENT as Ham II indicated above. I don't find the list he provided "cherry picked" because they specifically include the term "revolution," like this article does. (And if there are articles on national revolutions where we don't capitalize the term, as SmC and Cinderella seem to suggest, please show them.) ~~ Jessintime (talk) 18:28, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
I've looked and I think there are only these five that have the same construction (without other modifiers or qualifiers, e.g. dates) and are in sentence case: Romanian revolution, Sudanese revolution, Syrian revolution, Tunisian revolution and Yemeni revolution. These are the rest: Cuban Revolution, Nicaraguan Revolution, Belgian Revolution, Philippine Revolution, Serbian Revolution, Argentine Revolution, Monégasque Revolution, Rwandan Revolution, Guatemalan Revolution, Andorran Revolution, Tajikistani Revolution and Ethiopian Revolution. Ham II (talk) 19:10, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
Note that four of the five mentioned are entirely the work of Dicklyon, Cinderella, and SMcCandlish (one even without a formal RM), and all five are from after mid-2023. Flemmish Nietzsche (talk) 20:04, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
Indeed, we have fixed a lot of over-capitalized terms in recent years. Dicklyon (talk) 00:25, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

To quote SnowFire in the RM to capitalse Siamese revolution of 1688 on an argument of consistency (see here), As I've said before, this is an invalid rationale. There is zero expectation that capitalization of the word "revolution" be consistent across all articles, nor should there be; Misplaced Pages should follow the capitalization used in the sources. Cinderella157 (talk) 00:37, 17 September 2024 (UTC)
(To be clear, I'm opposing this RM on the nom's argument, so fair enough for Cinderella to quote me in favor. For the record, I stand by what I wrote above - I don't think CONSISTENT is strong grounds for anything. Every evolution needs to stand or fall on its own merits. Just... this case is one where there's obviously plenty of support in sources for a capital, so let's go with that.) SnowFire (talk) 00:53, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

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