Misplaced Pages

Proposal for a new logo for policy pages

Proposed versions

Current version

This is the latest iteration. Previous iterations are available in my sandbox. Here is a Diff of how this will look on the {{policy}} template.

Before I invest any more time on this, I seek comments from the wider community to assess if this proposal is worth pursuing. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:20, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

This makes sense... I think seals are a bit more universally recognized in the context of a policy/mandate. The only caveat per User:David Levy is that it is better to make one without words in it for universality across all Misplaced Pages languages. (→Netscott) 00:41, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

There is a blank version available, that can be used to localize the text: Image:Gold seal.svg ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:49, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

I'd prefer it without the text. "Official policy" is in blue and in bold in the box's text - there isn't a lot of point trying to get the image to illustrate the page when the bold text does that much better. And when shrunk down to the size used in the template, the tiny curved text strains your eyes. It would be good to replace the generic tick mark, though, so I like the idea of using a seal. --Sam Blanning 00:53, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

As I've commented at the aforementioned discussion, I have numerous objections to this change:

1. There's nothing wrong with the checkmark/tick. Jossi claimed that it's "US-centric," but that's patently false. It isn't even Anglocentric.
2. This is proven by the fact that this exact icon file appears in the policy templates of Wikimedia wikis spanning no fewer than 26 different languages. This consistency is highly beneficial.
3. In addition to being widely adopted by other Wikimedia wikis, the current setup (green checkmark for policies, blue checkmark for guidelines, red cross for rejected/historical pages) has been in use here since December 2005. It's highly familiar to many people, and there's no compelling reason to start over.
4. The seal contains English text, thereby limiting its use to English-language wikis (or necessitating localization for each language).
5. The text is difficult to read at my resolution/screen size.
6. The text is completely redundant with the actual template's wording.
7. The intended display size is far larger than the 30px icons used in the various page status tags. As a result, the template's minimum size would be larger for many users (thereby pushing the actual content further down the page).
8. Jossi has proposed the use of gold coloring for policies and silver coloring for guidelines. This would reinforce the widespread misconception that guidelines are "ranked lower" than policies and can be disregarded by anyone who dislikes following them (because they're "only guidelines"). While it's true that guidelines sometimes have more wiggle room than policies do, they generally should be followed unless there's a good reason not to. The use of green and blue doesn't reinforce the notion that guidelines carry no official weight. Gold and silver (or any other "lower" color) would be counterproductive.
9. I also believe that the connotation carried by the seal imagery itself is inappropriate. Another widespread misconception is that our rules are sacrosanct laws that must always be followed to the letter. To me, this new icon seems indicative of such a situation, while the checkmarks convey the reality that these are mostly consensus-based checklists of concepts determined to be appropriate via use and discussion (descriptive, not prescriptive). —David Levy 00:58, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Sorry David Levy, but you might have wanted to disclose the fact that you've had a hand in the adoption of the Green and teal checks for use in tagging policy pages. (→Netscott) 01:04, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

I mentioned that more than once in the aforementioned discussion. In case you didn't realize, I didn't design the checkmark. I merely converted it from an SVG to a PNG (which renders properly in IE6), created a blue version, and added these to the templates. I also had absolutely nothing to do with the icons' adoption at any of the other wikis. —David Levy 01:16, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Here is a version (#2) without caption and with ribbons as requested by some editors:

Looking very good. (→Netscott) 01:13, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

It's a nice icon, but it resembles an award of some sort. —David Levy 01:16, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Well the ribbons aren't truly necessary.... but let's see what others think.. (→Netscott) 01:20, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, of course. —David Levy 01:29, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Let it be known, I am not attached or feel strongly about making a change. Only that I think that as the project evolves, and our content improves, we need better graphics as well. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:22, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

To me, the proposed change seems like a step backwards and a solution in search of a problem. (No offense intended. As I said before, I'm incapable of designing an SVG approaching this level). —David Levy 01:29, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Maybe, David. But exploring possibilities, has the potential to discover them. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 02:08, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

No argument there. I'm just expressing my opinions.  :-) —David Levy 02:10, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

I have to agree with all of David Levy's objections; particularly the cross-wiki consistency, and size/colour comments. However, (just to be difficult!), how about draft#3, in white instead of gold, with the green/blue tick in the center? I'd still be recognizable and minimal, but would get the redesign-proposal's point across. --Quiddity 04:00, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

I have only one thing to say about this, KISS. The checkmark is humble and it is simple. Fanfare to a minimal. If you want to use something else, ok, but do not forget the awesome power of simple. -- Ned Scott 04:11, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

I tend to agree with Ned Scott which is why I'm tending to prefer this image . (→Netscott) 04:24, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't know about your display, but on mine, that looks remarkably like a depiction of the sun. —David Levy 04:27, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Actually I mentioned this to Jossi and explained that it would be good to make a better more well defined version for smaller sizes (like above here)... he explained that he wanted to test the waters here before he extended more effort on this idea. (→Netscott) 04:31, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

• I think the gold seal looks rather silly on a policy page, and at any rate it's not such a good idea to affix any kind of Official Seal Of Authority to our policy pages. WP:NOT a bureaucracy. >Radiant< 12:04, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

I can see that there is no traction for this proposal. At least we have now a dozen seals in the public domain at commons... ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:33, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Last attempt I did yesterday night, below. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:32, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

This I like. Checkmark as a clear sign that it has approval, gold seal showing it's official. Definitely makes it a clearer distinction at a glance from guidelines. Night Gyr (talk/Oy) 20:43, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

As Radiant and I noted above, a gold seal carries a connotation that's best avoided. And again, the "distinction" to which you refer already is far less significant than many people believe. Additional emphasis would be highly counterproductive.

As Ned Scott noted, simplicity is good. There's no need to replace a small, sober icon (the dimensions of which have been standardized across our page status templates) with a large, fancy distraction that increases the tag's size and pushes content down the page.

And frankly, a seal with a protruding checkmark makes little sense. —David Levy 23:58, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm more for keeping it as a simple check mark. It gets the point across nicely without being distracting. —Remember the dot 04:57, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

GO to anything so policy and guidelines are more distinct from one another. Put a frowny face on one and a smiley on the other, but make them look different! (And Radiant!, since when aren't we a bureaucracy... God forbid anyone should ever try to print hard-copies of all our guidelines and the few, way too few, policies.) // FrankB 09:35, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

For what it's worth, support seal with checkmark. --Ķĩřβȳ♥♥♥ŤįɱéØ 18:07, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

extend WP:BLP to cover particularly revered dead people?

I'm curious if there would be any objections to extending WP:BLP to cover figures that are particularly revered by national, ethnic or religious groups.

A great many people take criticism of their leaders seriously. Recently, YouTube was blocked in Turkey because of a video making fun of Attaturk and a British national was imprisoned in Thailand for "insulting the King". We all remember last year's furor over Danish political cartoons depicting the Prophet Mohammad.

Given the growing coverage of Misplaced Pages in the mainstream media, it might be a good idea to explicitly apply the unequivocal language of WP:BLP to figures that are particularly revered, if for no other reason than to help prevent a situation where some idiot's vandalism of wikipedia leads to serious consequences in the real world. Its bad enough that Jimbo had to defend Misplaced Pages in the American press during his recent trip to rural India, I don't think anyone wants a situation where he has to deal with the secret police in some country because some idiot vandalized the article on that country's national hero.

I don't really see a downside here, we should be holding these articles to a very high standard anyway, if for no other reason than because they are likely to be highly visible. My experience with BLP is that it doesn't necessarily restrict criticism, but it does force people who want to add criticism to write better, more accurate and better sourced claims. GabrielF 22:06, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

It's easier, on the whole, to judge who's alive and who's dead. Would the category "Particularly Revered People' be vetted by a specially designated sub-committe of Misplaced Pages administrators? Would all saints be included as "Particularly Revered"? Would that include saints who never existed historically? How about just semi-protecting highly vandalized pages? --Wetman 22:29, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Honestly, I don't think the subjectivity issue is a big deal. Lets say the category is overused - what's the worst that will happen? High standards are applied to too many articles? We can always develop a better inclusion criteria, say, any case where wikipedians would have reason to believe that vandalism of an article might cause undue harm to the project, based on multiple sources that say that people who have been accused of insulting the person have been prosecuted or otherwise persecuted.

Of course we can do this in addition to semi-protection, but there are a couple of advantages to having a formal policy. First, if we get attacked in the media it will be helpful to say that we have already developed a strict policy to deal with this stuff. Second, it may make all editors a bit more careful about citations and POV issues. Third, it will be easier to remove problematic material.GabrielF 23:05, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I object to extending WP:BLP to any particular subclass of dead people, except possibly some sort of "dead for fewer than N years", where N is a one-digit integer. In particular, all three cases you mention are places where Misplaced Pages should not apply WP:BLP standards. We have WP:RS, that's enough. Αργυριου (talk) 22:48, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I would object to this as well. It's not hard, and not subjective, to determine if a person is alive. It's far harder and much more subjective to determine if a person is or was "revered", and I don't think we should get into the business of deciding that. How do we decide? Revered by whom? The rationale for this policy is that it prevents harm to living people. Dead people can't be harmed, they're, well, dead. Of course, an editor repeatedly attempting to insert unsourced POV edits into an article about a dead person can be reported and dealt with for disruptive behavior, but that's true of all articles. Seraphimblade 22:57, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Seraphimblade. This just seems to be unnecessarily opening a can of worms. We really don't want to encourage arguments over which dead people are "revered", and which aren't. -- Chairman S. Talk 22:09, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

About Speedy Deletions, regular Deletions, and editors who only do those two things.

Is there a method in place already to censure people for using deletion tags incorrectly, repeatedly? I find it is an incredibly common problem - if I see something on TV that is notable and yet does not have its own article, I usually try to add it. Every single time I add an article, someone tries to have it speedy-deleted instantly. We are not talking about random, meaningless articles here; instead we are talking about content that is universally approved and accepted as notable, except it does not have sources yet. When I go back, and do more work that the other person could have helped with, and add sources from Google, there is no dispute.

There are dozens and dozens of editors who go through new pages and just wantonly apply speedy deletion and prod tags to new articles that are short, temporarily unsourced, or otherwise don't meet their approval. Despite the fact that they are not candidates for regular deletion (let alone speedy), these same editors constantly mark things for speedy-deletions regardless, assuming that someone else will come back behind them and clean it up if it was a mistake.

This is hugely detrimental to the project, and it is a form of newbie-biting. Do we have a force in place to correct this behaviour specifically? People who have no idea what the speedy-deletion criteria even ARE should not be using speedy-deletion tags, and yet they are doing it, because it is an easy way to get their edit count up without contributing, doing research, or doing any real work.

So please tell me I'm overlooking a place where I can report these habitual abusers? I wish there was a specific unit or group of people specifically watching for this sort of thing, because it literally happens with /every single/ article I have created, both as an anon (previously) and as a registered user (now).John the Apostate 22:20, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Re the spur of the moment unsourced new articles. Have you considered starting the article in your sandbox, finding and adding sources, before creating the thing in Misplaced Pages? This might prevent speedy delete tags for lack of references.

As for the New Article Patrols; I don't know enough to comment but there is a lot of cruft created each day, somebody has to get busy with the broom. LessHeard vanU 22:34, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

My point, really, is that this is against policy and they shouldn't be doing it. While I could write the whole thing in notepad and add sources before I pressed 'save,' why should I have to? I am not the one violating policy, they are. John the Apostate 22:43, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

The onus for sourcing is, always has been, and always will be, with the person creating the new article, and not the person nominating it for deletion. Chris cheese whine 22:37, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

So if I wrote an article about Hitler with no immediate sourcing, and someone else came by and wanted to speedy delete it as 'patent nonsense - db1,' you would find this acceptable? Because to me, that's completely misunderstanding the policies on deletion, and especially on speedy-deletion.John the Apostate 22:41, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Probably, but then we've got a perfectly good one already. PS - you lose. :-) Chris cheese whine 22:46, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Probably? Meaning you would find that acceptable, to speedy-delete it as 'patent nonsense' simply because it didn't have sources that a simple click on Google would turn up? I suggest you read the article for deletion page again, because it specifically warns against doing that, in several ways and places. I will note that I am new here, and I thought this was a place where I could get actual constructive responses. I am a bit baffled by the flippancy, as I thought this would be a forum to communicate seriously. Is this a gag page, or is it just you? John the Apostate 22:51, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I've done several articles in a userspace sandbox before posting them. Sometimes you do come across something you think it might be interesting to make an article on. But we require that article content be attributed to sources. Not sometime, not before they get ready for their FA nomination, but from the very first edit. If you want to start a draft, but aren't ready to source it yet, just start it off in userspace, and source it at your convenience, without any worry of deletion. As to speedies, if you think one was requested inappropriately, add {{hangon}} to the article and make your case. If you would like any of the deleted articles userfied so that you can find some sources, let me know, I'll be happy to do so for you. Generally, so will the admin who performed the deletion, unless the article was an attack or copyvio. Seraphimblade 23:04, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict) If I saw a new article on Hitler saying random gibberish or biased political rantings, then I would immediately nominate it for speedy deletion. When I am on the prowl, I look for articles with absolutely no context whatsoever (often created by vandals), articles that appear to be autobios (often created by newbies and which I simply move to their userspace), or I look for articles which do not assert their notability (among the biggest mistakes, in my opinion). I believe that users should take their time creating a new article and try to work out its kinks before making that first edit, so-as to prevent misunderstandings such as what you have experienced. If an article has not existed for the several years that Misplaced Pages has been around, I'd be pretty confident that no one is going to create it while you're typing it up.

I do not know what the original incarnation of your article looked like, but the vast majority of the existing text on Nina Clifford does not seem to assert any notability -- with the exception of the last line: "Ms. Clifford was memorialized in the 1980s with a play, and then a musical, about her antics. It was entitled 'Nina! Madam to a Saintly City.'" For that reason, I believe it attains notability. It provides links, which (I assume) provide references (though they should be wikified, but alas: I, too, am guilty of rarely formatting references properly). --Bossi (talk ;; contribs) 23:07, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Try the administrators noticeboard first, but make sure the taggings are, in fact, false. Have your argument ready or you'll be dismissed outright. WP:RFC would be the next step after that, although it's typically a waste of time. --badlydrawnjeff talk 22:56, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Also try {{inuse}}, on your very first edit. Αργυριου (talk) 22:57, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the tips! I will keep them in mind. John the Apostate 23:06, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

It's actually rare that a speedy delete would occur in five minutes and it would certainly mean that at least one editor and one administrator found the article worthy of deletion. One problem I saw with your article was that there was no notice of notability (notoriety, yes; notability, no). Lots of uncited stubs survive, but non-notables tend to get waxed. Askari Mark (Talk) 23:00, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

The point is not whether the article qualified for a suggested deletion. The problem is that it clearly (and the other ones too) did not qualify for speedy-deletion, and yet people are very very quick to slap a tag on there, usually within thirty seconds (!) of creation. That is wholly inappropriate, and even if the nonsourced article would have been deleted following deletion policy, so be it. But tagging it as a speedy-deletion and then doing it over and over to other articles just to get your edit-count up is the problem. I know how to proceed now though. Thanks! John the Apostate 23:06, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Also, to be clear, no admin deleted my content. I was miffed by constantly being faced with erroneous speedy-deletion tags on content that was NOT patent nonsense, and yet was tagged that way by new page patrollers of the regular-editing variety. John the Apostate 23:08, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

(undent) You're sort of missing the point of WP:ATT if you write the article and add sources later. Ideally, you should be writing from sources, not writing and then finding sources to back up what you say. Mr.Z-mantalk¢Review! 23:45, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

However, if an article has real content, CSD nonsense only applies to true nonsense (sjdgfoseuaygfs sfdhp234io), not coherent content, so you could definitely argue agaist deletion based on misuse of the criteria. Mr.Z-mantalk¢Review! 23:52, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

(responding to comment further up) Articles get looked at as soon as they're posted. If you'd like to work an article that's not ready to be read, it's best to create it and work on it as a user subpage. Maybe it's a little surprising to see articles tackled right away, but this is a wiki, we all work together, and if you want an article for yourself for a bit, don't put it in article space. --Interiot 00:34, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Wait... what's this? "create in userspace"!? Doesn't that amount to "Please don't actually use the wiki to make an encyclopedia?"

OUW!

We're here to work together to make great articles. Not to race each other to see who can delete articles fastest. Focus here folks! :-)

Articles are started in the main namespace, and when you see one, your first question should be how do I improve this?", not "which CSD tag shall I apply today?".

My first article on wikipedia got wikified and tidied practically before I released the submit button. That fast! Was I hooked? Boy was I ever. I'm still here editing years later :-P

--Kim Bruning 02:01, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

This suggestion to only create article in the user space until they are of feature article status is utter BS'ing. In this regard, I completely agree with you Kim. We are here to create great articles, and they have to start somewhere. The whole point of Misplaced Pages was to avoid having to go through the incredibly painful process of Nupedia where you had to write the article completely, submit it for "peer" review, have it rot away for a while, go back and re-edit the article, add more sources and improve the content, and then finally get the thing for approval. Again, how many Nupedia articles actually got written in this process over the course of more than a year and a half? And yes, I was there back when Nupedia was first started. I was so intimidated by the whole process that I decided to bag it and not even bother trying. It sounds like some people here would like Nupedia to start back up again, as if Misplaced Pages never happened, or even understand why Misplaced Pages was started in the first place. --Robert Horning 05:06, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

This editor specifically said

"if I see something on TV that is notable and yet does not have its own article, I usually try to add it..."

and then goes on to say that they then look to see if there are references they can use. If folk are going to be allowed to add "interesting facts not previously noted" without context and to be referenced as and when sources are found (and just left hanging if there is nothing? Are these people going to go to a major library or just do a Google search for their citations?) then both WP:Not is going to need rewriting and the article stubs people will be needing counseling.

The sandbox is the ideal place to consolidate and polish up a new article, and many people (me hopefully included) are better editors for having early contributions removed/ripped to shreds; as per the comment in the edit box. I also think the people patrolling new articles are performing a useful service in keeping the standard of surviving articles to a reasonable standard, it gives a useful mark at which to aim, by removing non-par contributions. They would likely be delighted to come across more new articles that have already been worked on and do not need any attention from them. LessHeard vanU 22:56, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Every deletion is a person displeased, and some of those people will make no further contributions, and frankly when I see things like this and this and they're hanging around for months and years I have to wonder if all the policies and guidelines on content aren't just pretense. Cryptonymius 05:21, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

(EC) Whoa! I think we can have a middle ground here. No one's saying "Create in userspace until it'll be ready for FA on the first edit." The issue here is sourcing. We should be writing from sources, not memory. What userspace creation does help with, is preventing needless deletion (and whether anyone likes it or not, there is a lot of garbage coming in. See for yourself.) When one is doing newpage patrol, and seeing tons of one- or two-line articles coming in, most of which are in the vein of "John is really cool lololol", yes, sometimes the trigger finger gets an itch, but that's not without reason. It also helps future editors (there's a source right there, write some more from it!) and helps to weed out hoaxes (the more articles that come in sourced, the closer of scrutiny can be placed on those that don't.) The arguments often seem to exhibit the false dichotomy and straw man fallacies. There is a middle ground between "Create a sourceless one-line article that barely even explains what it's about" and "Create an FA on the first edit." Seraphimblade 05:22, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Hmmm, I know all about the itchy trigger finger phenomenon. I've done most kinds of admin-type patrol too. I might have occaisionally gotten one or two complaints. Shootout on Deletion Review at high noon? Who me? <innocent look>. No Requst for comments or Arbcom cases though <knock on wood>.. You do need to make snap decisions though, because it's like mopping the floor while the tap's still running. If you mess up, just undelete quickly, no problem. Or only go by proposed deletion in the first place, that's what it's here for, sanest system around!

If those don't really work out anymore, then we've got a problem. We're supposed to be helping editors, not hindering them, of course. Moving away from the wiki-pedia model is probably not the best idea though. :-/

I still might know some tools (& who to bribe to work on 'em) to help with making admin tasks easier, and maybe we can make improvements to RFA itself. Do you have any specific ideas on what might help (tools, processes, attitudes, or pure blue sky thinking) , yourself? --Kim Bruning 06:03, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

By far, the best thing that could be done is a similar attitude toward sourcing as there is toward NPOV (though this may be blue sky thinking). If someone sees a glaring NPOV problem, they know it's a problem, and it needs fixing sooner rather than later. This is good. As a reference work, we should be placing a tremendous amount of importance in maintaining a neutral stance. Yet many of these same editors, upon coming across a sourceless article, won't even do so much as place an {{unreferenced}} tag on it to call attention to the problem, and become very agitated about the removal of unsourced information (or sometimes even just on fact-tagging it!) Sourcing is not only as critical as NPOV, it is critical to NPOV. If what is in an article is sourced, there is no need to question editorial bias-we're reporting what reliable sources said, not what we think. It also helps future editors immensely, as quite often there's more information in a source for what that editor wishes to add, and it's right there. It's also extremely beneficial to readers, if they read an article and want more in-depth information, a reference list tells them right where to find it. I don't think this could be done through policy (hell, it already is policy), but I'd like to find some way to get people to understand the importance of sourcing. Seraphimblade 06:16, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Actually, come to think of it-someone proposed, a while back, that we could have a "Draft:" namespace, that articles-in-progress could reside in until they've met the minimum sourcing guidelines. I think that just might help-that way, the decision isn't just between "Delete it entirely" or "Keep a sourceless article around", if no one can readily find sources. Seraphimblade 06:18, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

There are very legitimate reasons to delete "articles", especially if they aren't encyclopedic or even somebody just writing random garbage. But writing a draft version of a legitimate article just doesn't seem to me to be one of these. There are many, many articles that are legitimate stubs (and mostly even labeled as such). While having sources is a very good thing and should be strongly encouraged, deleting good faith contributions is not the best way to help encourage new people to try and contribute here. This includes POV edits, as in many cases all you need to do is simply educate the new contributor and try and let them know some good examples of NPOV articles and what the general philosophy actually is. Article deletion is the easy way out of this process, which is why it is done perhaps far more often than it should be. --Robert Horning 22:24, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

That's why I like the idea of the "Draft:" namespace (though, it would be easy enough to userfy unsourced articles, even without any code changes). That should address the concerns on both sides. For those concerned about unsourced articles, it gives an easy way to get them out of the encyclopedia, without deleting them entirely. For those contributors who contribute unsourced information, it lets them keep what they've written, but sends a firm message "Source it, then put it in an article, not the other way around." Seraphimblade 23:05, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

So how would you deal with red links? By keeping them in the main namespace, you would at least have the blue-links for those articles which are stubby, even if they don't have all of the sources you are insisting on here. I'm not objecting to disclaimers and templates warning that the article is stubby in nature or incomplete. For me, a "Draft" namespace would be better used to help calm down edit wars where people are going back and forth with very unstable articles and moved to the main namespace once there is something close to concensus that has been achieved. I know that the red/blue link is something that could be fixed in software, but it does indicate that more thinking needs to go into this idea, and needs to be more than just creation of a new namespace.

On the other hand, I would support a "Published:" namespace or something similar that would only get content that has achieved some level of review and acceptance of several users. And to have articles in this published namespace to only link to each other unless the article hasn't reached a "published" level of acceptance. A user preference could then be used to stick with just the published articles or go to the "raw" articles under development, with default settings to only search for the published articles. Articles would have to be "republished" again if they have changed and the users find a new version acceptable. Of course, the devil is in the details about how this would happen. --Robert Horning 00:35, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

The devil always seems to take up residence there, of course. Basically, what would happen is that articles with no reliable sourcing whatsoever would reside in the "Draft:" namespace (or alternatively be userfied and added to a category). There, the editors could take as long with sourcing as they desire, without having to worry about the article being deleted for lack of sourcing. If they need a few weeks to wait for an interlibrary loan to come in, that's fine! They're not restricted to a 5-day AFD process that way. On the other hand, that also ensures that we're not presenting totally unreferenced content as encyclopedia articles. To solve the redlink problem, perhaps it could be set up so that if there is not yet a mainspace article, but there is a draft, the reader is directed to a page stating something like "The article on this subject is a draft. Its information is not verified or sourced and is likely to contain inaccuracies. If you would like to view the article or help with writing and sourcing it, please click here." Seraphimblade 09:58, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

User pages on Google

I don't think user pages and user subpages should be searchable on Google. Some people like to keep private versions that lean towards a POV not approved by consensus. In at least one case the user subpage appears higher in Google search rankings than Misplaced Pages's own article. It should be relatively easy to fix the software to treat user pages and subpages like talk pages and not let them be searchable. Thoughts? --Ideogram 12:40, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

So, how do you stop it? Realistically. I know, there is the "Robots.txt" file that is supposed to set up rules about what can and can't be searched by "legitimate" search engines on any given website, but I don't think it necessarily applies in this situation either.

What goes into any page here on Misplaced Pages, including user pages, is very much a public page. Perhaps that needs to be made more clear on the edit box itself, but if you are posting information here, expect that all of it including the user pages is going to be read by anybody and everybody, including employers, government law enforcement agents, ex-spouses, children (even grown up children), parents, friends, enemies, political opponents, and others. Even if these pages weren't made searchable, there is nothing that the Wikimedia Foundation can reasonably do to stop others from going into these pages and seeing what you may have written.

In addition, all of this content is not only made searchable, but you can even download it all in one massive file for all user pages, and some interesting searches have been made recently of user pages of a statistical nature to try and find out the demographic make up of Misplaced Pages contributors. If this policy of prohibiting a google search of user pages is to happen, you should also prohibit even the ability to download user pages as well. --Robert Horning 13:32, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I went to WP:USER and would have thought that having a POV fork of a page in your userspace would have been listed as bad. You probably could WP:MFD the POV page and claim that it's a POV fork and/or the temporary work in progress isn't actually being worked on (depends on the edit history). I don't think limiting searching is a good idea. Being able to search in Google for items that may be contained in userspace is useful, especially with the current state of our in-house search. --MECU≈talk 13:37, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

My concern is that if the POV user pages show up in a standard Google search someone might go to them thinking they are legitimate Misplaced Pages articles. This can be alleviated by tagging them with {{Userpage otheruse}} (which I have done) so at least there is a partial solution. I'm not opposed to them being available in general, I just don't want them confused with real Misplaced Pages articles. --Ideogram 14:04, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree in concept, but if the person searching is paying any attention and has and sense about them, they will note that the page they are looking at is headlined with "User:SoAndSo" or what ever the user's name happens to be. If I saw that, I would at least look into whether or not it was an actual article about the topic or just a user who happened to have the same name as the topic for which i was searching. SpadePrince Talk 16:16, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Remember that a lot of people are new to Misplaced Pages (Misplaced Pages and Wiki are the most commonly viewed pages). Most people are stupid. (Actually, they just aren't paying attention, but the result is the same.) --Ideogram 17:13, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Hey! Since when did Talk pages stop being searchable in Google? That doesn't seem to reflect any part of Misplaced Pages's configuration (neither robots.txt nor meta tags prohibit indexing talk pages), but they do appear to be largely missing. Compare "Talk:Earth" on Google and the same on Yahoo. It appears that Google has independently decided not to index the article talk pages. Oh, and yes, POV forks in user space should be deleted. Dragons flight 16:32, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I have archived all those contents in edit histories. The materials should no longer be possible to be searched on Google. Please consider retreating your MFD nomination. Thanks. — Instantnood 22:46, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

• This should be on bugzilla. >Radiant< 12:45, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Also, this has been around before; see here, here, and here for old discussions, none of which really came to a satisfactory resolution. Of the top ten google hits for 'Opabinia regalis', I'm #3, 4 (or 3.5), and 10. Opabinia regalis 05:12, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Ineffective Wikiseek

I have recently noticed that a Wikiseek is now the default action for text entered in the search box that appears to the left of each article.

Is this helpful to our users while Wikiseek typically produces inferior results to the Go button?

[Wikiseek is a search engine that has indexed only Misplaced Pages pages, plus a very few pages that are linked to from Misplaced Pages. It was created by startup Searchme, Inc.

Despite press reports to the contrary, it has no affiliation with the charitable organization Wikimedia Foundation or private corporation Wikia, and is unrelated to the never-released web search application Wikiasari.

Misplaced Pages users are cautioned that using the Wikiseek button often produces an inferior result to using the Go button on Misplaced Pages.

An ironic example of this is if one enters "Wikiseek" into the search button of Misplaced Pages; choose the Wikiseek button and no useable results will currently be displayed, choose the conventional "Go" button and you are taken directly to this article!

Further examples of futile searches with Wikiseek (even though there are eponymous articles) would be "Amber House" and "Cabragh House" (even though these particular problems were reported in 2006...] W. Frank 17:09, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't understand - for me, the default action is still the Go button. -- Chairman S. Talk 22:06, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I think you've got some malware installed on your computer which is altering the way Misplaced Pages displays for you. There is certainly no "Wikiseek" button in Misplaced Pages. rspeer / ɹəədsɹ 21:09, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Discussion of articles with "allegations"in their name

Definition of "allegation":

al·le·ga·tion /ˌælɪˈgeɪʃən/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation *Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –noun

• 1. the act of alleging; affirmation.
• 2. an assertion made with little or no proof.
• 3. an assertion made by a party in a legal proceeding, which the party then undertakes to prove.
• 4. a statement offered as a plea, excuse, or justification.

• —Synonyms 1, 2. charge, accusation; claim, contention.

(from dic.com)

Misplaced Pages's official guidelines regarding the use of the term:

Alleged (along with allegedly) and purported (along with purportedly) are different from the foregoing in that they are generally used by those who genuinely have no predisposition as to whether the statement being cited is true or not. Newspapers, for instance, almost universally refer to any indicted but unconvicted criminal as an alleged criminal. Therefore, there is no neutrality problem with using them. However, there may be a problem of ambiguity—they should only be used where the identity of the alleger is clear.

...

O.J. Simpson allegedly murdered his ex-wife and a friend of hers in 1994.

(Taken from WP:WTA#So-called.2C_supposed.2C_alleged.2C_purported)

Currently on Misplaced Pages, there are some articles with that word in their article name. Noted:

• Allegations of Israeli apartheid
• Zionism and racism allegations
• 1993 child molestation allegations against Michael Jackson (note that this is the legal use of the term)
• Allegations_of_Satanism_in_popular_culture
• Allegations of apartheid
• George_W._Bush_insider_trading_allegations
• Tablighi Jamaat and allegations of terrorism
• Allegations_of_tourist_apartheid_in_Cuba
• Allegations_about_the_2000_Fijian_coup_d'état
• The Allegations section of Template:Antisemitism

and on and on. Please see this google search to find lots more

These articles discuss the allegations, and then give examples of when the term is used.

But, there are also articles like this:

• Islam and antisemitism (see discussion on talk page)
• Christianity and antisemitism (see discussion on talk page)
• Islamofascism (see discussion on talk page)
• Islamophobia
• State terrorism by United States of America (Note that Allegations of state terrorism by United States of America is a redirect to said article)
• State terrorism in Sri Lanka (First sentence of the article is "Several groups have alleged that there have been instances of state terrorism by Sri Lanka")
• Holocaust
• New antisemitism
• Pallywood
• Homosexual agenda

etc.

So I was wondering, what is the current status of these articles? I don't think it makes sense for some articles to have "allegations" in the title, while others don't. I think either they all should, or they all shouldn't. Thoughts? --Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 20:20, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

How does Holocaust fit into your list? --Dschwen 20:38, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

It fits because the Holocaust is alleged to have happened. --Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 20:43, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

It's not "alleged" to have happened, it did happen. WP:V applies here, as I explain below. Kari Hazzard (T | C) 20:47, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

According to the definition of alleged, it has been alleged to happen. There is a considerable minority of the world which do not believe the holocaust occured. --Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 20:53, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Speaking frankly here, I think this was a productive discussion until you made your last point. Obviously there are events that are universally acknowledged by scholars as real and should be treated as such (e.g. the Holocaust) and there are interpretations of historical events (e.g. most of the items of the first list) that are inherently allegations. We need to have a discussion about "criticism of x" and "allegations of x" articles, but if we can't distinguish between things that are certainly true and things that are certainly alleged we'll end up with either "Allegations that the Earth is Flat" or "Controlled Demolition of the World Trade Center". GabrielF 22:12, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

You say "certainly true". WHO decides whether something is certainly true? Sources? Misplaced Pages editors? "Certainly true" is something which is contestable in and of itself. --Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 16:24, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

WP:V is critical here. "Allegations" is perfectly acceptable in article titles where the article exists to document an unverifiable, albeit possibly noteworthy, belief. An example of this would be Allegations of Israeli apartheid. The existence of "Israeli apartheid" apartheid at all is itself quite questionable, but the question being posed by many on the political far left and political far right is a valid subject for Misplaced Pages to document. The ideas themselves are unverifiable and thus cannot be accepted as fact within Misplaced Pages, but the argument can certainly be made that the allegations are noteworthy enough to justify an article about the allegations themselves. Conversely, Islam and antisemitism, Christianity and antisemitism and The Holocaust are not allegations, they are historical (and in the case of the former two, also present) realities. Thus, per WP:V, they can be considered fact.

I'd argue that the "State terrorism" articles ought to be moved to "allegations of..." but beyond that, it looks good the way it is now.

The subject of the article is coalesced in its title; "Allegations" articles document the allegations themselves, whereas non-"allegations" articles document facts. Kari Hazzard (T | C) 20:46, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't understand what you mean by "unverifiable". What is "unverifiable" about Israeli apartheid? For some people, it is considered a fact. Opposite goes for Holocaust. Some people don't consider the holocaust of fact. I think these selective titles may be an example of Systematic bias (Misplaced Pages:WikiProject_Countering_systemic_bias) --Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 20:51, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

It fails WP:V and is therefore unverifiable per Misplaced Pages standards and policies. The criteria for what makes information verifiable for the purposes of Misplaced Pages is clear and remarkably simple. Remember that Exceptional claims require exceptional sources. I have seen no exceptional sources suggesting "Israeli apartheid" exists and therefore it fails WP:FRINGE. Sorry. Systemic bias isn't an issue here, it's Misplaced Pages's content policies that you have a problem with. Kari Hazzard (T | C) 20:57, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Exceptional according to who's definition? I could say "I have seen no exceptional sources suggesting that "holocaust" exists and therefore it fails WP:FRINGE". --Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 21:01, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I definitely do not want to start titling articles like Holocaust with the words "allegations of" before it. To me, "allegations" a term that should be reserved for very specific legal instances. In the case of "Israeli apartheid", it's a descriptive term that's in use in different political circles. Those who use it are not alleging that Israel is an apartheid state, they are insisting it is. That term and its associated debate deserve representation in an article titled after the concept itself. The controversy can be discussed in the article, much as it is in Islamofascism. Tiamut

Tiamut, I must say that was my point in bringing up Holocaust. Thanks for putting it in better words than I have. I also would NOT like to see Allegations of the Holocaust. --Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 21:06, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Note how Allegations of the Holocaust doesn't even redirect to Holocaust. I just realized that now. --Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 21:07, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Nor does Allegations of Holocaust exist. --Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 21:09, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

An "exceptional" source is defined according to Misplaced Pages consensus. The applications policy are subjective, but the fact is nonetheless they are subjective of consensus more than they are subjective of any individual editor. Kari Hazzard (T | C) 21:11, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

That's exactly my point. The consensus is subject to systematic bias. --Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 21:16, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

So what are you suggesting? Destroying WP:V and WP:CON because they don't allow for the views of a political fringe to be accepted as fact in Misplaced Pages articles? I'm sorry, but no one will go for that. Kari Hazzard (T | C) 21:19, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I find it extremely offensive that you consider Israeli apartheid as fringe; notable scholars such as Noam Chomsky have spoken of it. --Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 21:45, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Also, look at WP:FRINGE. It has the apollo moon hoax, creation science, and the paul is dead hoax as examples. Are you seriously suggesting that the discrimination towards Palestinians in the occupied territories is equivalent to those nonsense theories? --Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 21:51, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Official discrimination by the Israeli government with the intent of wiping out the Palestinian population over a long period of time so that the Jews can have all of Israel as God intended, then they will expand their colonial empire from the Nile to the Euphrates as the Bible says and destroy all who stand in their way? Yes, I am saying that argument is as credible those nonsense theories. Sorry if I sound condescending, but if you want something treated as fact in Misplaced Pages it must conform with WP:V and not fall into the category of WP:FRINGE. If you don't like Misplaced Pages's policies, you have two choices:

1. Don't edit. There's no mandate from god or from your government (wherever that may be) compelling you to edit Misplaced Pages.
2. Propose changes to policy. If you think policies get in the way of Misplaced Pages being successful and accurate, propose changes to them. Policies are not implicitly "perfect", but they're all we have at the moment. If you have a better approach or a better way, propose it and see if it gains consensus. Either way, if you want to edit you have to follow the policies that do have consensus.

Editting Misplaced Pages is a privilege, not a right. Whether or not you follow policy in your editting is the prime criterion for determining whether or not you deserve that privilege. Just because it is given by default does not mean you are owed it; and if you don't like our policies, and decide that you don't want to follow them while editting, it may be taken away. Kari Hazzard (T | C) 14:09, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Telling me "don't edit" is inane. Please don't be a total dick and tell me to go away. How would you like it if I told you "don't edit". Your belief that Israeli apartheid is WP:FRINGE is just that; a belief. Also, last time I checked, this is the village pump regarding policy, so instead of saying "follow policy", why don't we discuss the policies instead? That's the whole fucking point of even bringing this up.

Also, I don't like your condescending attitude (as evidenced on this page) towards me. Please read WP:AGF. Thanks. --Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 16:30, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Even Israeli apartheid should not have "allegations" in the title. It's superfluous, non-neutral and unprofessional. We should write in an objective style without implying a point-of-view. — Omegatron 21:09, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

• Roughly speaking, if the subject of the article is just the allegations, then it may be appropriate to use that in the title - realistically, Allegations of Islamofacism should be a subarticle of Islamofascism - where the parent article explains what it is, while the daughter article talks about who's been accused of it, why they've been accused, how they've responded, et cetera. Generically, you'd only split off the daughter if the parent is too big. Labelling everything with qualifiers like allegations because the subject isn't completely agreed upon is dumb, because no subject is completely agreed upon. Would anyone take the encyclopaedia seriously if we had an article called Allegations of Gravity with Gravity as a redirect to it? And yet generically putting allegations of in the title of contraversial articles will lead to that sort of thing - if you dig, you'll see every article is contraversial - Allegations of the Coriolis Force, Allegations of Pizza Delivery and so on ... WilyD 21:10, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
• Having reviewed it, I see Allegations of Israeli Apartheid is probably well titled - it just talks about who makes the allegations and why, it doesn't talk about the Israeli apartheid hardly at all. WilyD 21:13, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Indeed, a huge amount of the article is devoted to the allegations. Jayjg 21:14, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
    • So Wily, do you think it is permissible to separate Allegations of Israeli Apartheid from Israeli apartheid? And also, should then, conspiracy theorists be allowed Allegations of the Holocaust (the content could be merged from Holocaust denial) That's even more interesting of a title which raises questions. Can we have an Israeli apartheid denial article as well? --Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 21:19, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
      • I don't know enough about the subject to say whether WP:NAME would place the article at Israeli Apartheid or like Israeli treatment of the Palestinians or whatever. Generically, if Allegations of Israeli Apartheid got too long, you might need to spin out Israeli Apartheid Denial - although again, I'm not sure this is the preferred term per WP:NAME. Maybe it is. I think I understand the generic issue here because I've seen it come up in other places a few times, but I don't know enough about Israeli politics to make off the cuff specific statements. WilyD 21:28, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
      • Of the above examples, Zionism and Racism allegations seems like it shouldn't have allegations at the end, for instance. WilyD 21:30, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
    • Going even further with this point, there's even Criticism_of_Holocaust_denial. Can we have Criticism of Israeli apartheid denial as well? --Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 21:20, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
      • If you can't differentiate between historical fact and political rhetoric, then there's hardly a point in responding. The Holocaust was a terrible historical event. "Israeli apartheid" is a political epithet. Please try to use less egregiously offensive and, frankly, silly arguments in the future. Thanks. Jayjg 21:21, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

By making an article about a subject, we are making an implicit claim that it exists, and that claim must pass the acid test of WP:V. If it cannot pass that acid test, it cannot be on Misplaced Pages. "Israeli apartheid" cannot be verified to exist, and therefore an article suggesting it does has no place here. We can, however, discuss the allegations made by some that it does exist, which is what we do. Kari Hazzard (T | C) 21:23, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I completely disagree with your "implicit claim that it exists". We have articles on creation, aliens, etc. etc. and not Allegations of creation, Allegations of aliens, etc. etc. --Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 21:28, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

The subject of an article could exist in fiction or in popular thought--The only thing that matters here is that it can be verified that it exists therein. I can verify, by checking the first Star Wars film, that there is indeed a character called Luke Skywalker. I cannot verify, however, that "Israeli apartheid" exists in any world, real or fictional. Remember, Misplaced Pages is not a publisher of original thought. Kari Hazzard (T | C) 21:36, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Israel apartheid DOES exist in popular thought. Many notable scholars have used the term. Also, just because it's not popular where you live doesn't mean that it isn't popular in other places. Again, an example of Systematic bias.--Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 21:41, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

• • • • • "If you can't differentiate between historical fact and political rhetoric, then there's hardly a point in responding. The Israeli apartheid is a terrible historical event. "The Holocaust" is a political epithet. Please try to use less egregiously offensive and, frankly, silly arguments in the future. Thanks."--Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 21:25, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

So...are you proposing a page move or what? If you are, just make your proposal at WP:RM and be done with it. The discussion here seems more like soapboxing. --Minderbinder 21:30, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm not proposing anything, besides consistency. I don't want to swarm WP:RM with several hundred pages with "allegations" in them. --Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 21:38, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

"Consistency" isn't really something that can be proposed as a blanket rule of all articles. "Allegations" is appropriate when the topic dictates it, there's no reason all or none should have it. What are you hoping to accomplish, getting the word removed from articles that have it, or adding it to others? --Minderbinder 21:42, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

As I said, either they all have "Allegations of" in their titles, or none of them do (except in legal uses of the term). Either way is fine with me. (but admittedly with a bias towards those words being removed). --Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 21:47, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Even if you could somehow define "they all" whatever that is (All articles? All articles anyone disputes?), it's never gonna happen. You're tilting at a windmill here (or at least making your stink somewhere trafficked enough to get your ranting read by a few people). Nothing to see here folks, let's stop feeding the troll. --Minderbinder 21:51, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Any article that has WP:NOTABLE notable disputes should have "Allegations of..." in the title heading. --Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 21:53, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Any article that has WP:NOTABLE disputes should be brought to WP:AFD, and then the matter should be settled. WilyD 21:58, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

My mistake. Didn't mean to have the "WP" showing.--Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 22:03, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Also, don't be a WP:DICK by accusing me of being a troll. I have been on Misplaced Pages for quite a while now, and have no history of blocks. --Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 21:55, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I do not know where this is headed. but it seems to me that there are very clear cases where the word "allegation" can be used. Leave these to be discussed in the specific articles. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:34, 15 March 2007 (UTC) Here's how I think we should make the distinction between allegation and a fact.

• If the event/condition/issue is debated by reliable (preferably scholarly) sources, then it should be an "allegation" or "controversy".
• But if the event is disputed only by wiki users, on unreliable sources, then wikipedia considers it as fact, but gives all POVs due weight.

What do you gusy think about that?Bless sins 22:00, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

• • No, if the article discusses X it should be named X - if it discusses allegations about X, who makes those allegations and why, they history of doing this, then Allegations of X should be used. Allegations of Calculus, for instance, should not give a history of the development of Rienmann sums - Calculus or History of Calculus should do that. Meawhile, an article about how Crackpot McGee claims calculus doesn't exist because otherwise he won't meet course requirements at the University of Assbacks, Ontario that results in a lot of press coverage might reasonably be titled Allegations of Calculus. WilyD 22:06, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Wily, that sounds about right. But look at the Islam and antisemitism article, which is filled with allegations that Islam is antisemitic. What do you think of moving it to Islam and antisemitism allegations?--Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 22:09, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

• • I think you're on to something, but don't know if I follow your point on "But if the event is disputed only by wiki users, on unreliable sources, then wikipedia considers it as fact" . Can you elaborate? Majoreditor 22:08, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
    • That part is right, but the first point isn't. The article should only Allegations of ... if it ignores the subject and only talks about the debate about whether or not the thing exists. Allegations of North America should not have the population of North America - that's rightly placed in North America, but the debate about whether Columbus was in a new land or Japan might reasonable be titled Allegations of the Amercas. WilyD 22:15, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
      • Alright, I think I understand your view now. I'm sorry if I come off as condescending by asking too many questions. --Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 22:21, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
        • Not at all - better to ask too many questions and understand each other better than necessary than the reverse. WilyD 22:23, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

(Resetting indent). There's an important distinction here. At least 90% of the facts that give rise to the idea of apartheid are not under dispute - characterizing it as "apartheid" is an interpretation that by its very nature is subjective. The Holocaust is a proper name for a series of specific events that are accepted by 99.99% of anyone who calls himself/herself a historian. (Oh, and Noam Chomsky quite clearly holds fringe positions, and isn't even a historian, nor - as it turns out - such a great linguist). --Leifern 00:29, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

• Hey, just because Chompsky is terrible at a lot of things doesn't mean he's a bad linguist - the reason people listen to him when he hasn't a clue what he's talking about is because he's such a good linguist. Anyways, I sort of agree - realistically, Israeli Apartheid should redirect to Treatment of Palestinians in Israel or whatever, not Allegations of Israeli Apartheid, which seems to be the right article at the right place. WilyD 00:44, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

I've long believed that we should avoid using the word "allegations" in article titles. There will obviously be the need for some exceptions (eg. the 1993 Michael Jackson article), but the word is too easly co-opted for political ends.

The Allegations of Israeli Apartheid title is a bad compromise, and was chosen during highly politicized negotiations last summer. At the time of the article's creation, the concept was relatively marginal. Since then, it has been referenced by a former American president, a United Nations report, and countless journalists. And yet, the "allegations" title has been retained, due to ongoing political divisions on the page itself.

It may be noted, by way of contrast, that the disputed concept of New antisemitism is not referred to as Allegations of new antisemitism, notwithstanding similar objections that have been raised around the concept's viability. CJCurrie 03:54, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

CJCurrie, that's a good point. I've added New antisemitism to the list uptop. --Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 04:07, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Categorizing the Holocaust as an "allegation" undermined your own cause. Speaking of which, this whole proposal is an attempt to make a WP:POINT. ←Humus sapiens 10:00, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Again, important distinction here. The term "New Antisemitism" doesn't attribute antisemitism to a particular group, or entity. If the title had been Robert Fisk's antisemitism (and I'm not claiming he's antisemitic), the comparison would have been apt. --Leifern 10:40, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Don't attack the user, who is not (at least here) violating WP:POINT - he's trying to make a good point in a constructive, nondisruptive way. There is an inconsistancy that comes from editors who try to apply WP:NPOV without having read it. WilyD 13:16, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Getting away from what is by definition a POV argument... let's look at this with complete dispassion: In naming articles on Scientific topics, we do not add "Allegations of..." in front of theories held to be factual by mainstream consensus. We should do the same for historical events (or theories) held to be factual by mainstream consensus. Since the vast majority of historians hold that the holocaust did in fact occur, we should not lable it as an "Allegations of..." article. Now, there might be some argument that the opposing view could be an "Allegations" article (ie "Allegations that the Holocaust did not happen")... except that such an article already exists in a much more NPOV manner as Holocaust denial.

In fact, that's why I tried to talk about topics where Allegations of X sound funny. But I will say on scientific topics, we don't use Allegations of ... for non-mainstream stuff either, or even false stuff. MOND is not Allegations of MOND, Caloric Theory is not Allegations of Caloric Theory, Aether is not at Allegations of Aether and so on ... WilyD 15:22, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

I do think we need to think about the propriety of having any "Allegations of" articles... so many of them are thinly veiled POV forks... but that is a different issue. Blueboar 13:36, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Blueboar, I understand your concerns. But what about science which has mainstream consensus among scientists, but not among the general populace? I think it would be incredibly silly and stupid to have an Allegations of Evolutionary theory article. As gracenotes said, I think that if there is relevant, sourced, notable dispute of a subject, then the article should not allege it as a fact. For instance the holocaust is considered fact by the vast majority of historians. But there is a notable minority which disagree with the extent of the holocaust. But that does not mean that the Holocaust article should be moved to Allegations of the Holocaust. And the holocaust itself is such a controversial subject that a move to "Allegations..." would be offensive. And that is my point with the Israeli apartheid article. Most historians agree that Israel has isolated and separated the Palestinians in the occupied territories. But there is a notable minority (mostly from the United States and Israel) that claim there is no persecution of Palestinians. But moving the article (as it currently stands) to "Allegations..." is offensive. As user Tiamut earlier above said: "Those who use it are not alleging that Israel is an apartheid state, they are insisting it is. That term and its associated debate deserve representation in an article titled after the concept itself." --Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 14:12, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Those who use the phrase are still making allegations, regardless of whether or not they believe them to be true. Jayjg 14:56, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Also, I find the allegation that I am violating WP:POINT to be entirely self-defeating. The whole point of the Village pump is to discuss issues BEFORE doing something major. If I had went and move all those articles to "Allegations of..." (or vice versa), that would have been a WP:POINT.--Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 14:15, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

I've found this: WP:WTA#So-called.2C_supposed.2C_alleged.2C_purported. Added to top.--Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 14:29, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Added Pallywood.--Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 14:30, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

You forgot Islamophobia. I added it for you. Jayjg 14:56, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. If you find anymore, feel free to add them. --Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 14:59, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

The article Allegations of Israeli Apartheid is, strictly speaking, about the allegations rather than the actuality of any discrimination or colonialism which would be better served by an article entitled something else. At least, that was the reason behind the writing of the article by my understanding. That isn't even considering the compromises that reaching that title entailed. Islamofascism is about the neologism, Islamophobia unfortunately conflates a neologism with a real phenomenon along with allegations of the phenomenon, and New antisemitism is similar. --Coroebus 20:21, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm not quite sure why Pallywood is included in this discussion. The article is admittedly problematic - it's a neologism used almost entirely by blogger-activists and promoted in a self-published video essay by an academic working in a personal capacity as a political activist. The notability of the neologism, the video essay and the academic's activism is questionable to say the least - it emphatically isn't widely used or recognised beyond the blogosphere. (See Talk:Pallywood#Notability questions for details - comments from other editors would be very welcome.) However, it seems to me to be in a rather different category from the one that Kirbytime sets out above. -- ChrisO 02:00, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Although the article itself states that it is about the word "Pallywood", reading the discussion page it seems clear that many users including SlimVirgin and Leifern have decided that they want the article to be about alleged incidences of what might be called Pallywood, hence the dispute about referencing articles that don't even mention the term (e.g. here and here. This is extremely problematic as Misplaced Pages really shouldn't be adopting partisan neologisms as the titles of articles about things, unless the article is about said neologism. It is one of the main source of conflict on articles such as Allegations of Israeli Apartheid (where the same editors consicuously take the opposite view insisting that the sources must include references to Israeli apartheid) and Islamophobia and Islamofascism. --Coroebus 14:02, 17 March 2007 (UTC)