| Revision as of 04:14, 22 November 2006 editNaus (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users2,657 editsm →The purpose of this article← Previous edit |
Latest revision as of 12:26, 7 December 2024 edit undoTom.Reding (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Page movers, Template editors3,918,072 editsm -redundant class params (6); cleanupTag: AWB |
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{{Notice | On September 20, 2011, the article '''People's Republic of China''' was moved to ''']''' and the article '''China''' was moved to ''']''' following a lengthy ]. "Chinese civilization" is now a disambiguation page, and its contents were consolidated into ''China''. All sub-pages including talk pages were also moved. |
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== Mass edits with no oversight of talk page discussion == |
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I have access to view the talk page on China, but I can't read the article on China any more. The page must be too controversial. ] 12:38, 13 November 2006 (UTC) |
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:Possibly because of this paragraph, which accurately summarizes worldwide views of PRC human rights: "Post-1978 reforms on the mainland have led to some relaxation of the control over many areas of society. However, the Chinese government still has absolute control over politics, and it continually seeks to eradicate threats to the stability of the country . Examples include the fight against terrorism, jailing of political opponents and journalists, custody regulation of the press, regulation of religions, and suppression of independence/secessionist movements. In 1989, the student protests at Tiananmen Square were violently put to an end by the Chinese military after 15 days of martial law." ]''']'''] <small>]</small> 15:52, 14 November 2006 (UTC) |
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:: Possibly the Tiananmen Square reference is getting it ''censored by keyword''? I wonder what would happen if we called it T1anm3n sq4r3 instead? <very innocent look>. ] 21:41, 14 November 2006 (UTC) |
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:I tried a little ASCII hack, replacing i with &#105;, but it looks like Misplaced Pages pre-renders that. ]''']'''] <small>]</small> 16:28, 15 November 2006 (UTC) |
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Should all these edits be undone, and be first proposed through sandboxes and debated in talk pages? ] (]) 05:26, 2 October 2011 (UTC) |
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== Why do we even have a Names of China section? == |
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== Putting actual content back == |
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This section takes up almost half the article over an utterly trivial aspect of China. I think the entire section should simply be moved to ]. Does anyone object? --] 16:36, 15 November 2006 (UTC) |
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:I say go ahead. ]''']'''] <small>]</small> 21:51, 16 November 2006 (UTC) |
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::Could we keep a small section there (with a link to the main article ], of course)? Basically saying that the Chinese name is Zhongguo, what Zhongguo means, and explaining the western name "China". I think it would be worth keeping this much information here and giving the more detailed info on the new page. ] 21:58, 16 November 2006 (UTC) |
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:::What new page? you mean the page that I was saying a long time ago the Middle Kingdom arguement needed to be moved to? --] 2006 November 16, 09:56 zulu |
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I've looked at the various options and figured out that having this page as a disambiguation page doesn't actually help the reader. With this page now moved to Chinese civilization, it is likely to become a much lower-traffic page. As such, would something along the lines of ] be a suitable framework for re-developing this page? ]] 22:18, 10 October 2011 (UTC) |
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Since no one has objected I will go ahead and make the change. (I'm sure after I do it someone will object.) --] 07:09, 19 November 2006 (UTC) |
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:I only know what google translate tells me, but it seems to me that that German page would just duplicate either our ] or ] page. ] (]) 22:41, 10 October 2011 (UTC) |
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:So far I like it, Ideogram. Good work! I think what we left behind in this article covers what needs to be covered pretty well, and the new ] article is very thorough. ] 07:38, 19 November 2006 (UTC) |
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::I think we need a German to explain what "Kulturraum" means. -- ] <]> 22:47, 10 October 2011 (UTC) |
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:::It means a ]. I think Chipmunkdavis is right that such an article probably would overlap a great deal with articles like ], ] and ]. But ofcourse, if some good sources can be found which talk about the Chinese cultural area as a distinct topic different what those other articles are about, it maybe worth making an article about that topic.] (]) 01:01, 11 October 2011 (UTC) |
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::::Probably a userspace draft is needed. -- ] <]> 07:19, 11 October 2011 (UTC) |
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:::::It's just terribly unlikely that any user will hit this page and expect disambiguation, so I think we're better off either expanding this into an article with content, or scrapping it into a redirect altogether. (NB. I can read German, and sorry for not explaining "Kulturraum" - I didn't think it was crucial to the discussion, and thanks TheFreeloader for the explanation.) ]] 13:48, 11 October 2011 (UTC) |
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::::::The problem is figuring out what the user who hits this is looking for. I think they'll be searching for cultural information, others think historical. The disambiguation allows the reader to clarify. I don't suppose a reader ever actually expects to hit a disambiguation. ] (]) 16:41, 11 October 2011 (UTC) |
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:::::::Okay I think I get the point. I've added ] to the list and changed some wording and presentation, just to make it even less ambiguous. ]] 00:38, 12 October 2011 (UTC) |
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:: The merge was never discussed and I would suggest a rollback of all articles affected. ] (]) 12:25, 16 October 2011 (UTC) |
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::Thanks! --] 07:41, 19 November 2006 (UTC) |
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::: Actually, it was discussed. ] (]) 16:48, 16 October 2011 (UTC) |
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:::: No it wasn't. The discussion was only about the move. ] (]) 18:30, 16 October 2011 (UTC) |
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:::::See ] - it was discussed. -- ] <]> 18:35, 16 October 2011 (UTC) |
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:::::: Thanks. That's what I had missed. It wasn't in-depth at all, and was much less elaborated comparing with the move discussion. Your call for RfC was consistently rejected if not ignored. I wouldn't accept that as consensus at all. ] (]) 02:16, 17 October 2011 (UTC) |
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* Haha looks like we've finally settled the pointless Middle vs Central debate. Good job Ideo. --] 21:53, 19 November 2006 (UTC) |
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:::::::My call for an RFC was unnecessary as no-one objected to the merge - which I didn't expect. Given that even at this point only one person has objected there seems no reason to have an RFC other than to create bureaucracy. Additionally doing it quickly had the significant advantage that links pointing to "China" weren't moved which would then have to be moved back. |
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:::::::Given the vast interest in the move request if people really objected to the merge there would have been more complaints that a tiny number of IP editors. -- ] <]> 07:10, 17 October 2011 (UTC) |
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:::::::: I don't think the merge proposal was raised in the move request, and even if it was, it wasn't discussed in much detail. The subsequent merge proposal wasn't well notified among the community, and there wasn't much deliberations. I'd say few people actually noticed it. IMHO we should roll back all articles affected, and discuss the merge proposal for each article in detail, with RfC. ] (]) 22:57, 17 October 2011 (UTC) |
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: /me bows --] 22:15, 19 November 2006 (UTC) |
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:Don't feed the troll. ] (]) |
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== Portal:China == |
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== Move discussion in progress == |
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Please join the discussion at ]. --] 04:00, 18 November 2006 (UTC) |
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There is a move discussion in progress which affects this page. Please participate at ] and not in this talk page section. Thank you. <!-- Talk:People's Republic of China crosspost --> —] 11:01, 12 December 2011 (UTC) |
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== A Question about Chinese Science and Technology == |
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== Consequences of ] == |
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Inventions like Paper,Ship Rudder,Gunpowder etc are not in dispute but would members be able to show sources of the rest of Chinese inventions? I don't see how anyone can invent Bronze which is of course just one small point anyway more infomation would be useful as there are no sources or references on the main page thanks in advance for anyone who helps I need this for a project im working on :) -] ] 02:52, 19 November 2006 (UTC)11-18-06] 02:52, 19 November 2006 (UTC) |
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In the course of ] it was reaffirmed that other articles, categories, etc., wouldn't be affected. This principle was reaffirmed in CfD in ] and ]. But ] was moved. Please discuss at ]. Thanks. ] (]) 15:23, 19 March 2012 (UTC) |
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* I think this Sci and Tech section needs to be thoroughly revised or done away with. A list like that is meaningless and its wasting a lot of white space, making the article seem longer than it really is. --] 21:52, 19 November 2006 (UTC) |
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== New Content == |
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:Agree. --] 22:32, 19 November 2006 (UTC) |
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I've compiled portions of pages on Chinese culture and history to create the basis for a '''Chinese civilization''' article. I recently made an edit to add the information to the page, but had my edit reversed because an agreement has been reached to have the page act as a disambiguation page. My last edit, for reference, is as follows: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Chinese_civilization&diff=500700399&oldid=500699990. |
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== Linkifying == |
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I think a page on Chinese civilization should exist, and that it can be a helpful reference for people to compile things relevant to people looking into Chinese civilization to have many links and references together in one place. I think the page should touch on some basic values, norms, religious beliefs and cultural aspects common to the Chinese civilization; its political, economic, literary, and innovation history; and its influence on its neighbors and the world today. I don't know if my edit does that as well as possible, but think that it is a good start. |
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I thought it was generally advised to linkify only the first usage of a term, and never in headings. --] 22:31, 19 November 2006 (UTC) |
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: Yeah, I know.. but this is such a natural place to address the dichotomy. I mean a lot of content has been covered before this section, this a long article, so it's bothersome to go all the way up for the ROC or PRC article links, especially when this section is specifically talking about PRC and ROC as separate entities for the first time (whereas the entire non-lead article before only talked about China). You can change it if you want, but I feel that it's a convenient and natural place for the linkage. --] 23:12, 19 November 2006 (UTC) |
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::OK. --] 23:13, 19 November 2006 (UTC) |
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I think the article should also focus primarily on Chinese civilization when it was mostly free of strong Western influence. Considering that Chinese and Eastern Asians in general have been greatly influenced by Western/Global ideas, values customs and manners that they seem far removed from traditional Chinese civilization. |
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== Hot Zhang Ziyi photo == |
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Your thoughts? ] (]) 23:36, 4 July 2012 (UTC) |
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Stay or go? The photo of Zhang Ziyi photo is legal and free for use on Misplaced Pages. --] 09:43, 21 November 2006 (UTC) |
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: This page exists largely by accident. Once there was a page on the country at ] and page at ] on an ill defined topic. Ill defined as some people were sure that "China" was something different from the PRC but it was unclear what. Eventually after long discussion it was resolved that the country should be at ], which was not really a separate topic after all. So that was moved to ], its content merged with other articles, and it was turned into a disambiguation page, with links to related articles, the ones it was merged to and the ones most likely to be of interest to anyone typing "Chinese civilization" into the search box. |
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: So the consensus after that discussion is that there is no need for such an article. Readers are better off reading ], ] and ] which focus on those particular topics than an article which tries to cover all three. ] itself serves as an overview, while the other two articles are more focussed. There isn't really a separate topic as "Chinese civilization" and any such article would just duplicate existing ones.--<small>]</small><sup>]</sup><sub style="margin-left:-2.0ex;">]</sub> 01:16, 5 July 2012 (UTC) |
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== Movies == |
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Movies are not necessarily "arts", they are mostly popular culture and should not be in the Arts, Literature and Scholarship section, but in the general culture section. This move was unjustified. And how do I discuss the Zhang Ziyi photo when you keep removing it? No one would know it even existed! --] 09:50, 21 November 2006 (UTC) |
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::I was thinking of making an article similar to the one for the ]. The content I put together was mainly from several pages, but mainly ] and ]. Some material was also taken from the page on the ], the ], ], and the pages on traditional Chinese medicine, numerology, and social norms. This page wouldn't be meant to cover all history, but but key aspects of the Chinese civilization and its significance to the modern world today, which currently isn't in one convenient place. |
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:Arts are a subset of Culture. Movies are a subset of arts. And you also reverted my deletion of the paragraph on rice, do you have an opinion on that? Not to mention the paragraph as you wrote it needs to be copyedited. |
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::To achieve this in a non time consuming fashion for readers, based on what I've put together, the article could stand to lose chunks of material taken from the ] page, maybe touch on the religion of China in less detail, and have the history section rehashed to reflect on the Chinese civilization rather than the the Han Chinese ethnic group. ] (]) 02:28, 5 July 2012 (UTC) |
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:As for old versions, anyone examining the edit history can click on an old version to see what it looked like. --] 09:56, 21 November 2006 (UTC) |
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:::That is not a good idea. As "Chinese civilization" is a difficult article to make that can stand on its own and not just simply be another overview of those respective articles, which is basically what you are suggesting. It needs to be brought into context of the oh-so-much ambiguous term "Chinese civilization", have that and consensus may change. Everyone can state what the culture comprises, but how does it define the topic? Also, you can't just copy-paste things without clear attribution like earlier. --] (]) 03:48, 5 July 2012 (UTC) |
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:You will note that the link to ] is already under the Arts subsection. --] 09:58, 21 November 2006 (UTC) |
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::::I think it is fine that some sections link to pages on the history of scientific development or the economic history of China, but beyond that I see what you mean. I have an idea of what material might be good for this, but that is a bit more time consuming that cutting and pasting so I'll produce something to that effect progressively after some time. ] (]) 00:26, 6 July 2012 (UTC) |
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:: How about let's give it a run of 48 hours. It's hard to approve something that isn't there. I don't think it's that offensive to merit an immediate deletion. --] 09:59, 21 November 2006 (UTC) |
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:::Oh, I'm not going to revert again. As long as you are willing to talk about it I am in no hurry, and, as I said, all the old versions are still in the edit history. --] 10:01, 21 November 2006 (UTC) |
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== Edit summaries == |
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You really need to use edit summaries. Do you know what I am talking about? --] 10:02, 21 November 2006 (UTC) |
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== The purpose of this article == |
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The purpose of this article should be a NPOV uniting country article for the PRC and the ROC (paying attention to the common history leading to their separation), not some vague notion of "Chinese civilization." If one wishes to make a Chinese civilization article, he/she is more than welcome to under the title "Chinese civilization" (or "Sinic civilization"). China is foremost a contemporary country with two modern interpretations today and this is what this article should be about. --] 03:53, 22 November 2006 (UTC) |
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Secondly, the lists of scientific and technological achievements of China is useless in the main article and should be moved to a more minor page. Those links have little ties with China and are not explained. A single paragraph summary is more than enough to cover this list. Ideogram had removed the list just 2 days ago, but apparently it's back up again. Someone doesn't seem to get the point. --] 03:53, 22 November 2006 (UTC) |
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Thirdly, putting a picture of the Great Wall is controversial as it is Han-centric, and suggestive that China = Han. Again, this article should not attempt to be a Chinese civilization article, but rather a NPOV article on the country known as China, which includes a great deal of peoples traditionally on the other side of the Wall or have no concern for the Wall at all. It should be strongly noted that the ] had very little use for the Wall and modern China is the direct successor of the Qing Dynasty. If one really wants to add that picture (it's a good photo), then put it in the history, culture or technological achievement section. It shouldn't belong in the lead paragraph. You might as well be putting a picture of a panda bear in the lead paragraph. --] 03:53, 22 November 2006 (UTC) |
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Fourthly, a geographic/terrain map of China belongs in the Geography/Climate section. China is foremost a country, not a geographic area (which go by the terms: Chinese landmass, continental China or mainland China instead). --] 04:01, 22 November 2006 (UTC) |
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I've looked at the various options and figured out that having this page as a disambiguation page doesn't actually help the reader. With this page now moved to Chinese civilization, it is likely to become a much lower-traffic page. As such, would something along the lines of de:China (Kulturraum) be a suitable framework for re-developing this page? Deryck C. 22:18, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
I've compiled portions of pages on Chinese culture and history to create the basis for a Chinese civilization article. I recently made an edit to add the information to the page, but had my edit reversed because an agreement has been reached to have the page act as a disambiguation page. My last edit, for reference, is as follows: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Chinese_civilization&diff=500700399&oldid=500699990.
I think a page on Chinese civilization should exist, and that it can be a helpful reference for people to compile things relevant to people looking into Chinese civilization to have many links and references together in one place. I think the page should touch on some basic values, norms, religious beliefs and cultural aspects common to the Chinese civilization; its political, economic, literary, and innovation history; and its influence on its neighbors and the world today. I don't know if my edit does that as well as possible, but think that it is a good start.
I think the article should also focus primarily on Chinese civilization when it was mostly free of strong Western influence. Considering that Chinese and Eastern Asians in general have been greatly influenced by Western/Global ideas, values customs and manners that they seem far removed from traditional Chinese civilization.
