| Revision as of 03:19, 4 November 2017 view sourceLowercase sigmabot III (talk | contribs)Bots, Template editors2,308,064 editsm Archiving 1 discussion(s) to User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 224) (bot← Previous edit | Latest revision as of 19:05, 17 January 2025 view source Sir Macaw (talk | contribs)102 edits →A brownie for you!: new WikiLove messageTag: WikiLove | ||
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| {{Notice|1={{Center|1='''Jimbo welcomes your comments and updates.'''<br /> | {{Notice|1={{Center|1='''Jimbo welcomes your comments and updates – he has an ].'''<br /> | ||
| '''He holds the founder's seat on the ]'s ].<br />The current ] occupying "community-selected" seats are ], ] and ].<br />The Wikimedia Foundation's |
'''He holds the founder's seat on the ]'s .<br />The current ] occupying "community-selected" seats are ], ], ] and ].<br />The Wikimedia Foundation's Lead Manager of Trust and Safety is ].'''}}}} | ||
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| | subject = talkpage | |||
| | author = Matthew Gault | |||
| | title = Misplaced Pages Editors Very Mad About Jimmy Wales' NFT of a Misplaced Pages Edit | |||
| | org = ] | |||
| | url = https://www.vice.com/en/article/qjbkvm/wikipedia-editors-very-mad-about-jimmy-waless-nft-of-a-wikipedia-edit | |||
| | date = 8 December 2021 | |||
| | quote = The trouble began when Wales posted an announcement about the auction on his user talk page—a kind of message board where users communicate directly with each other. | |||
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| ==]== | |||
| == Systemic bias within Misplaced Pages.en == | |||
| ] | |||
| ] | |||
| ], we have a huge problem of systemic bias in the content of many of our articles and that fact just became obvious to me in a round about way. I was thinking about how the term "conspiracy theory" has become the most prevalent "shiny object" that can be thrown into a discussion which has the effect of distracting or blocking critical thinking discussion about any topic. This happens even when there is no conspiracy or even theory being discussed. The "shiny object" usage of the term reminded me of something that I could not put my finger on until just now. It is being used in exactly the same way the term "communism" was used as a "shiny object"in the USA in the 50s. e.g., Any thought of universal health care was decried as being "communism". Even worse, in the South, school integration discussions were often shut down because any form of integration was said to be promoted by communists. In fact, MLK was widely denounced as being a communist as later on JFK was. This taboo (of which the distracting shiny objects are only one part) on critically examining any issue which reflects negatively upon "the establishment" has severely infected the Reliable Sources in the USA. CNN reporters even refer to themselves as the ] meaning they are a ''part of'' the establishment, and their reporting reflects that systemic bias. Just today a CNN show about the 4 Americans killed in Niger was typically filled with weasel words like "appears to", "believed to" and the only unqualified thing in the report was that the soldiers wore t-shirts and baseball hats. ] (]) 18:23, 28 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| Happy New Year Jimbo!!! I hope all is well with you and your team. | |||
| :You've probably saved wikipedia, just with this one insightful post. I can't see why you'd be banned from anything, though you say you are, above. Illegitimi non carborundum. --<span style="font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold;color:#004d80;"> ]</span> 18:48, 28 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :* Wait. Would it be more concise to say that there is a conspiracy to maintain systemic bias by pointing out conspiracy theories? Or are you saying that systemic bias is a conspiracy to deny conspiracy theories? Or are the conspiracy theories just systemic bias that trigger more conspiracies? Personally, I like my word salad shaken, not stirred. I'll be here all week. Try the veal. --] (]) 08:53, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :**"''Veal''" you say? I'll stick with the yummy tofu, thanks... The t-shirts and baseball hats are the dead giveaway here - I'm surprised you missed that. --<span style="font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold;color:#004d80;"> ]</span> 14:52, 29 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Giveaway to what? That you are the one making things up? . What's wrong with you 2 guys? Scorn is just as stupid now as it was 2017 years ago, and I guess I have to spell out that I'm comparing the scorn, not the target. ] (]) 04:00, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::::How many heavy machine guns and how much body armor do you have? Do you carry and wear in every instance of when you may be attacked? In the Las Vegas shooting, many off-duty police attending the concert have body armor and machine guns that they left at home. Circumstances, not conspiracies are what drive these decisions. Heavy machine guns and Level IV ballistic vests stick out like a sore thumb in a small unit. Not every death is preventable or foreseeabl, let alone a conspiracy. --] (]) | |||
| ::::::I'm sorry, I must not have explained well enough the issue. I am not suggesting anything at all to do with a conspiracy nor that there was anything lacking in the military protocols of the USA military unit. I was trying to say that the reporting we are getting from USA main stream media, on virtually all topics which relate to U.S. government activities, is next to useless for an encyclopedia because the reports are too much/almost all speculation and theorizing, couched in qualifying phrases ("weasel words") which by definition means the conclusions reported are not actual facts, e.g. and "''more likely'' a target of opportunity". The only reported "facts" are often secondary and often unimportant or much less important aspects of the topics, e.g., the fact in this case that they were wearing t shirts and baseball caps. I used this particular article only because I happened to see the TV version 2 days ago and I thought it supported my point. ] (]) 14:51, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| {{od}} | |||
| * '''Implicit comparisons to Benghazi:''' The coverage in U.S. reports seems like a "]" of a diplomatic massacre while Trump controlled the ]. So he gets to see how Secretary ] felt, except no formal investigation yet, and Trump gets to be President and write hundreds of ], to reverse numerous federal decisions, while tweeting about Obamacare or tax-breaks-not-for-the-wealthy (ya right). So perhaps WP editors will write paragraphs about shiny distractions, while listing the erstwhile executive orders issued during those Niger events. -] (]) 06:34, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :I'm afraid this entire discussion doesn't make a lot of sense to me. It feels like this is actually a conversation about something else, something unspoken. If there are particular examples of us calling something a "conspiracy theory" when it is inappropriate to do so, I'd be interested in us chewing on that for a bit. If this is an indirect discussion about someone's conduct, then let's just have a direct discussion about conduct?--] (]) 10:05, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::Hi Jimbo, it is not about anyone's conduct. I will respond with examples later. ] (]) 14:58, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::I'm saying that the vast majority of USA reliable sources, as a collective, have a strong bias supporting whatever the USA "establishment"/ (usually alligned with the USA federal government) messaging is, similar but not as extreme as Pravda's pro USSR bias 40 years ago. The fact they refer to themselves as the ] supports this observation. Therefore, when our editors rely mostly on these biased publications the resulting articles are themselves lacking in objectivity and neutrality. It is no fault of our editors. I'll give 1 important, if not maybe the most blatant, example in a minute, but first I'd like to say that the solution is simple; A Reliable Sources cull should be undertaken annually by an elected or appointed committee of editors and I'd guess less than 10% of our existing USA reliable sources would qualify as unbiased. Right now the Guardian, Reuters are the most neutral sources for USA news, imo. | |||
| Could you or your page watchers help me with ]? The draft has been declined and tagged up. It was then deleted years ago. I had it restored today after I came across one of his photos. I think he and his photography are fascinating for capturing aspects of New Zealand's transportation and industrial history. His work is in museum and library collections. At least one of his photographs has been used in a book. He photographed Maori sites. | |||
| ::My example relates to our articles...thus sourcing..for how the Iraq War started and how General Wesley Clark's crucial report of the fraudulent justification for the war has not made it into our articles in any substantive way. Just to emphasize how vehemently main stream media was pushing the Administration's bull shit, just have a look at the CNN's anchor's ridicule of one of the former weapons inspector's pre-invasion view that there were no WMDs . Only the Guardian, a non-USA media, gave a account of this inspector's view. | |||
| ::General Clark's shocking happened in 2007, but only Salon picked up the story in print whereas over a million people have viewed his on youtube, yet a google search of "Wesley Clark 7 countries" shows virtually no USA main stream media published his revelations. Our articles on the ] and ] do not include anything about Clark's revelations, and even Clark's own Blp just mentions it in passing at ; but as I say, this is understandable given the extreme bias in MSM reportings. ] (]) 19:27, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ], standing beside a collection of Maori carvings, including two fire-screens, carved by her father Albert Percy Godber]] | |||
| :::I have to say, I’m a bit confused about journalists qualifying statements. That’s generally considered good journalism when simply quoting sources. ] (]) 16:30, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| I'm sorry I haven't been able to work the draft up enough to get it admitted to mainspace. It does make me wonder about what we do and don't include, our notability criteria, Articles for Creation (AfC) process, and collaborative ethos. Thanks so much for any help or guidance you can offer! Have a great 2025 and beyond. Thanks again. ] (]) 17:57, 4 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :If Godber is not ], which is what the draft reviewers say, then Wikipedians can't fix that. ] (]) 09:37, 6 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::] is he "notable" and should we have an entry on him? ] (]) 17:26, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::I dunno, but ] wrote that the draft did not show significant coverage about the subject in published, reliable, secondary sources that are independent of the subject at that point. ] (]) 19:37, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ] | |||
| ::::And this a request to revisit his finding. We have a photographer from more than 100 years ago who documented areas of New Zealand's North Island. We have his work in a National Library collection. We have his work discussed as iconic for one of his Maori related photographs. We have his work revisited in a 2018 exhibition. We have descriptions of him related to his photographs, his career, and we have the photos themselves documenting the areas industries, sites, infrastructure from more than 100 years ago. If I was satisfied with the previous conclusions I would not be here. So I ask again, should we have an entry on this subject? Should we just attribute his photos where we use them to an unlinked name with no explanation or discussion of who he was? I think the answer is clear, and I wanted to hear Jimbo's opinion. I am aware of what was previously stated. Years have passed and I believe it's time to reevaluate and consider. I also think it's worth reflecting on our article creations processes more generally and how we apply our conception of "notability". ] (]) 23:33, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *Godber's photographs include "views of the ] including large numbers of cars traveling to ], and the ]. Another group of images relate to a holiday at the ] Homestead in ] with scenes of farm life, including ], ] sheep, and farm buildings. During their stay in the South Island Godber also took photographs of Dunedin (including the ], ], ], the ], and the Hillside Railway Workshops); ] (including the Invercargill Railway Workshops); Stewart Island, ], ], ], ] and ]. Various railway stations in Canterbury and Otago, the ], and the Rosslyn Mills. Godber was a volunteer fireman with the Petone Fire Brigade with the album including views of the building, groups of firemen, fire engines and other fire fighting equipment, and a building in Petone damaged by fire. In his work with New Zealand Railways, mainly at the Petone Railway Workshops, he took interior photographs of various buildings, including the Machine Shop and finishing benches, the engine room, lathes, boilers, and fitting shops. He also took photographs of many of the steam engines that were built and worked on at the workshops. One scene shows a group of men watching a fight. Many images show his interest in logging railways, particularly in the ], ], ] area. Scenes of logging camps, various methods of transporting logs including bullock teams, logging trains, and dams created and then tripped to send logs down by river, and timber mills. Other topics covered in Godber's photographs are scenes at Maori ] and meeting houses, with some of the people identified; Maori carving and rafter designs; beekeeping, and gold mining." ] (]) 23:52, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| *It's hard to choose which photos to share. Historic views areas, industries, bridges, natural features, railways and bridges, crafts. to his photos on Misplaced Pages Commons. Many already illustrate our entries on various subjects. ] (]) 00:01, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :: If you really want to help him, get a couple stories published about him in newspapers. Notability here will follow. ] (]) 01:23, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == == | |||
| :::Nocturnalnow, Sometimes bias is in the eye of the beholder. You wrote, "Right now the Guardian, Reuters are the most neutral sources for USA news, imo." Perhaps they will lose that distinction when they write something that you disagree with. --] (]) 19:59, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| That doesn't sound good. From '']''. ] (]) 09:37, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Nocturnalnow, it's tough to take your reservations seriously when you misrepresent your links. Ritter was quite clear, at the time, that he had no idea what WMDs were in Iraq. That was his point. There hadn't been inspectors in there for far too long to make an informed action, certainly not going to war. Also, "people are accusing you of" is simply a statement of fact and Ritter gave his response. I also don't get the issue with Clark's treatment. By that time an anonymous conversation confirming what we already knew wasn't much of a bombshell. It didn't get much coverage because Clark was a bit late to the game and was light on specifics or any actual, you know, evidence. Actual memos, etc. And he was trying to sell a book. | |||
| :Being discussed at ]. ] (]) 10:08, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Lastly, you keep bringing up the Fourth Estate when historically in America it represented the power of an independent press. The derogatory term, in America, would be the Fourth Branch. This isn't to say there isn't strong bias in MSM. There is and always has been. This is nothing new. Even prior to TV every major newspaper, European and American, was always editorially biased towards one party or another. The problem with WP isn't MSM sourcing. It's trying to cover every MSM report the second it comes out before history has time to shake the facts out of the matter and qualified secondary sources present broader, evidence based, summaries. The problem is editors treat articles, particularly political articles, as extensions of the news cycle. ] (]) 22:24, 30 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::Thanks! ] (]) 11:11, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Also discussed at ] and ]. ] (]) 19:07, 8 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| Jimbo, could I ask you please to respond to from {{u|Tryptofish}}? | |||
| ::::: '''Of course''' articles are "extensions of the news cycle". There are two ways we can run Misplaced Pages. In one, we let every editor add each new fact as it comes out... together with other editors who add the sources that show it's not a fact. The other way we can run it is that the editors get together on the talk page and have a straw poll -- whichever of the two main parties has more adherents then proceeds to write a "consensus" party-line version that ''carefully'' decides which ''qualified'' secondary sources will be echoed and which will be unceremoniously consigned to the dustbin (ideally with any editors still advocating for the other side, who can be dismissed as disruptive). Personally, I prefer the first way -- but it seems like we're pretty close to right in the middle on this one. ] (]) 11:38, 31 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :... it's not just if you've edited about Israel-Palestine. It could be if you've edited anything about climate and fossil fuels, gender, immigration, vaccines, and of course, American politics. I doubt that they have the bandwidth to actually identify and harass every editor who could possibly be seen as editing information that goes against a MAGA POV, but they will likely find some easily identified targets, whom they will use to "set an example", as a way of instilling fear in our editing community. I fully expect that, in the coming months, {{u|Jimbo Wales}} will be hauled before a hostile and performative Congressional hearing, much in the manner of university presidents. I hope very much that he will be better prepared than ] was. | |||
| {{od}} | |||
| :Yeah, I know this is grim. But I believe the first step in dealing with this is to go into it with our eyes open, to know what we are dealing with, what motivates it. And, more than harming individual editors, the real objective of Heritage ''et al.'' is to instill fear in the rest of us. If we become too fearful to revert POV edits, they win. In a very real sense, we have to keep doing what we have been doing, and continue to be a reliable resource for NPOV information. --] (]) 18:54, 9 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Outdent and bold bit because, well, look at me... ''' - so, Wnt, you prefer the model that allows every unsupported allegation made by any nutjob with an internet connection and a grudge to be included in the world's number one search result for a living person until a vote of wikipedians is held? I'm sure you couldn't really have meant that, but that's how it parsed for me at first glance. --<span style="font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold;color:#004d80;"> ]</span> 12:12, 31 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ] (]) 05:33, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :: I prefer the model that allows every ''supported'' (i.e. secondary sourced) allegation made by any nutjob with an internet connection and a ''reliable editing process'' to be included. Misplaced Pages isn't here to render "history's verdict" -- we're here to summarize the existing literature. | |||
| :: I should add that I support this even when I don't think it's right because the entire media, "both sides", is biased or foolhardy. Notably, I am disgusted that Republicans so eagerly lined up to glorify the acts of terrorists in Libya in order to score political points against an Obama administration that did what every administration in a war does -- get attacked in a way that might have been avoided. I am equally disgusted with anyone who tries to turn a terrorist attack in Niger or elsewhere into bait against the Trump administration. But I can't spout off like that in the article. Best I can do is say, I want all sources included, so just in case some lone notable person ever goes on about how dumb it is to let a faction fight extend to siding with people who want to kill us all, there's a chance people will be able to include it contrary to whatever particular partisan party line prevails at the present. ] (]) 19:33, 31 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :Well, I fully agree that developments in terms of arguments and actions aimed at destroying trust in knowledge (and of course our specific interest, trust in Misplaced Pages) are extremely worrisome, particularly as I agree that for many who are doing it, the motive does appears to be the undermining of civic norms and democracy. I also agree with Tryptofish in a part that you didn't quote: "In a narrow sense, it's technically true that if you "out" yourself, there's no point in anyone else doing it. But once your identity is known, you become vulnerable to all of the kinds of real-life harassment that doxed people find themselves subjected to. It doesn't matter, in that regard, how they found out your identity." That's a sad balancing act that no Wikipedian should have to face. | |||
| I think that there is a systemic bias in English Misplaced Pages relating to US politics. As a result it is trusted far less on discretionary (spin, wording, inclusion, exclusion, weight) content on such articles / topics than it is in general. The remedy is further refinement of content policies and guidelines. Some are unusable or inadvertently biased in key areas, others are too easily mis-used by biased people, and there are other huge blind spots that need to be fixed. <b><font color ="#0000cc">''North8000''</font></b> (]) 20:27, 31 October 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :As a side note, I don't think that the reliability of the Heritage Foundation as a source is particularly related to these despicable actions. Whether they should be considered a reliable source in some matters is really unrelated to whether they hate us or not.--] (]) 14:14, 10 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Suddenly ] going to court to get user-data seems like the model of gentlemanly behavior. ] (]) 11:51, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :::{{tq|That's a sad balancing act that no Wikipedian should have to face.}} Unfortunately, the scales have been inexorably slipping out from beneath the foundation's abilities or willingness to protect its volunteers for my entire wiki-career. There's no balancing force at work. The private equity community has made gadflies out of what we used to label reliable local news media; Alphabet and Meta are actively coopting precision, privacy, and the public domain, while attempting to minimize the effectiveness of good faith actors like Internet Archive. Now suddenly en.wikipedians are facing the sort of personal threats long experienced by volunteers at ru.wiki and zh.wiki. The forces now arrayed against free information don't need to be actively coordinating in order to rapidly bring us to 2+2=5 territory. Any established editor could reasonably see Western culture has been under relentless attack for a long time. Here comes the Heritage Foundation's leaks, hot off Heritage's bangup release of Project 2025, leaking articles through partisan outlets apparently intended to make it appear (in one case) the ADL's recent reliability downgrade at RSNP was anyone else's fault but the ADL's own writings and actions. The news of such activity appears to threaten the community members directly and personally. ] (]) 13:26, 11 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| == ] == | |||
| * In the 1st message of this section was, "the term 'conspiracy theory' has become the most prevalent 'shiny object' that can be thrown into a discussion which has the effect of distracting or blocking critical thinking discussion about any topic." I just encountered that shiny object from ] in a discussion. --] (]) 16:22, 2 November 2017 (UTC) | |||
| Hey Mr. Wales, there's a discussion on ] about what image should be used on your Misplaced Pages entry. Figured you may want to chime in with personal opinion about the recent freely-licensed images of you that are presented, as there hasn't been much engagement there at the time of my post. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 21:32, 14 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| :*], yes and it happens all the time. Just a few minutes after you encountered the shiny object from ], it was used again by ] in the same discussion. | |||
| ::What is particularly disturbing in your cases is the way the "conspiracy theory" term, albeit completely misapplied (no conspiracy nor theory being mentioned in the discussion), is part of arguments/threats? to hat/censor? | |||
| :: discussion thread, even though there appears to be thoughtful interest and discussion from many editors on both sides of the issue of that thread.Apparently they had already hatted it once before being unhatted. ] (]) 14:42, 3 November 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::That was a pretty crazy section. It appeared to me that some editors were so inclined towards combat, or had such limited reading comprehension, that they didn't even recognize when I made a point that helped their position of being against using a statement from a Reuters article. My statement began with, "On second thought, the statement in Reuters may be misleading." --] (]) 15:34, 3 November 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I was pinged here. It also looks as if a link to my comment in that thread was more or less tossed in the soup without much regard to what I said there. I said we should strictly adhere to the WP policies that prevent UNDUE and fringe and conspiracy theory stuff from consuming huge amounts of editor time. I did not say that Bob was promoting a conspiracy theory. I note that Bob seems to have belatedly come around to understanding that the Reuters bit didn't belong. Good for {{ping|Geogene}} for trying to focus on article improvement. This thread is a waste of time just like the one Geogene hatted was a waste of time. ]] 15:59, 3 November 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Actually, I made my comment critical of the Reuters statement before you made your last comment over there. | |||
| :::::Re your above comment, "I did not say that Bob was promoting a conspiracy theory." – Geogene said so () and in your above message you supported his comment. Do you now disagree with Geogene's comment, "...this post by Bob K31416 is another example of how Misplaced Pages talk pages are being hijacked to spread conspiracy theories..."? --] (]) 16:38, 3 November 2017 (UTC) | |||
| == ''The Signpost'': 15 January 2025 == | |||
| Not talking about any specific instance, but mis-characterization of someone's views as alleging a conspiracy is a lot worse than a shiny object, it is a deliberate mis-characterization as a way to bash the person and/or whatever they just said. <b><font color ="#0000cc">''North8000''</font></b> (]) 16:44, 3 November 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :I'll talk about that specific instance. Bob's participation on that thread was not constructive, it could not possibly have led to article improvement, and it was rejected after a lot of tail-chasing and nonsense. We've been going through this for a year or more on the Russian interference artilce. Some of the denials of Russian interference may have been more credible early on. With the abundant evidence from RS reporting every day now, it's bizarre to see us still going through that, especially when new or infrequent editors visit the articles. I don't see that Geogene deliberately misrepresented anything, and I suggest you drop the stick, North. You're kind of on probation with all this politics stuff anyway after your ban. ]] 17:00, 3 November 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::You say, "I don't see that Geogene deliberately misrepresented anything", after Geogene had accused me of spreading a conspiracy theory. So does that mean that you think that Geogene made an honest mistake regarding me? --] (]) 17:14, 3 November 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::Misrepresenting my statement, especially after I specifically said "Not talking about any specific instance" as a "stick" to be dropped is not good. <b><font color ="#0000cc">''North8000''</font></b> (]) 17:21, 3 November 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::Well, even though you did qualify your statement, considering the context, Specifico may have made an honest mistake. --] (]) 17:27, 3 November 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Either way, other than reacting to my post being improperly characterized, my only interest was to contribute to the general discussion, not to deal with anything regarding a specific individual, so I'm bowing out of this sub-thread. <b><font color ="#0000cc">''North8000''</font></b> (]) 17:58, 3 November 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::::This may be another example of how combative editors may be suppressing work on Misplaced Pages. I think it takes an extraordinary temperament to continue with someone like that, but there are limits even for the most hardened when they simply ask themselves, why am I getting involved in this time sink. --] (]) 18:08, 3 November 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Asking myself that question, that's enough time spent for me, so I'll call it quits. --] (]) 18:17, 3 November 2017 (UTC) | |||
| <div lang="en" dir="ltr" class="mw-content-ltr"><div style="column-count:2;"> {{Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages Signpost/2025-01-15}} </div><!--Volume 21, Issue 1--> <div class="hlist" style="margin-top:10px; font-size:90%; padding-left:5px; font-family:Georgia, Palatino, Palatino Linotype, Times, Times New Roman, serif;"> * ''']''' * ] * ] * ] (]) 07:54, 15 January 2025 (UTC) <!-- Sent via script (]) --></div></div> | |||
| == Casual use of "hatting" to "censor" talk page discussions == | |||
| <!-- Message sent by User:JPxG@enwiki using the list at https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:Wikipedia_Signpost/Subscribe&oldid=1269316164 --> | |||
| == A brownie for you! == | |||
| ], sorry to use the word "censor" but I can not think of a milder term in this instance. Please have a look at discussion thread and the "hatting" threats and applications thereof related to the thread, i.e. | |||
| {| style="background-color: var(--background-color-success-subtle, #fdffe7); border: 1px solid var(--border-color-success, #fceb92); color: var(--color-base, #202122);" | |||
| There appears to be thoughtful interest and discussion from many editors on both sides of the issue of that thread.Apparently they had already hatted it once before being unhatted. Your thoughts? ] (]) 14:50, 3 November 2017 (UTC) | |||
| |style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 5px;" | ] | |||
| :I would have hatted that discussion, had I been involved.--] (]) 18:22, 3 November 2017 (UTC) | |||
| |style="vertical-align: middle; padding: 3px;" | brownie :D ] 19:05, 17 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
| ::Wow. I am ''really'' surprised. I must be way out of sync with current norms and mores re: artificial limits being placed on constructive discussion. So be it. ] (]) 18:40, 3 November 2017 (UTC) | |||
| |} | |||
| ::Would you care to give your reason? --] (]) 20:17, 3 November 2017 (UTC) | |||
Latest revision as of 19:05, 17 January 2025
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Centralized discussion
For a listing of ongoing discussions, see the dashboard.Albert Percy Godber
Happy New Year Jimbo!!! I hope all is well with you and your team.
Could you or your page watchers help me with Draft:Albert Percy Godber? The draft has been declined and tagged up. It was then deleted years ago. I had it restored today after I came across one of his photos. I think he and his photography are fascinating for capturing aspects of New Zealand's transportation and industrial history. His work is in museum and library collections. At least one of his photographs has been used in a book. He photographed Maori sites.
I'm sorry I haven't been able to work the draft up enough to get it admitted to mainspace. It does make me wonder about what we do and don't include, our notability criteria, Articles for Creation (AfC) process, and collaborative ethos. Thanks so much for any help or guidance you can offer! Have a great 2025 and beyond. Thanks again. FloridaArmy (talk) 17:57, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
- If Godber is not WP:NOTABLE, which is what the draft reviewers say, then Wikipedians can't fix that. Polygnotus (talk) 09:37, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
- user:Polygnotus is he "notable" and should we have an entry on him? FloridaArmy (talk) 17:26, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- I dunno, but User:Sulfurboy wrote that the draft did not show significant coverage about the subject in published, reliable, secondary sources that are independent of the subject at that point. Polygnotus (talk) 19:37, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- user:Polygnotus is he "notable" and should we have an entry on him? FloridaArmy (talk) 17:26, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
- And this a request to revisit his finding. We have a photographer from more than 100 years ago who documented areas of New Zealand's North Island. We have his work in a National Library collection. We have his work discussed as iconic for one of his Maori related photographs. We have his work revisited in a 2018 exhibition. We have descriptions of him related to his photographs, his career, and we have the photos themselves documenting the areas industries, sites, infrastructure from more than 100 years ago. If I was satisfied with the previous conclusions I would not be here. So I ask again, should we have an entry on this subject? Should we just attribute his photos where we use them to an unlinked name with no explanation or discussion of who he was? I think the answer is clear, and I wanted to hear Jimbo's opinion. I am aware of what was previously stated. Years have passed and I believe it's time to reevaluate and consider. I also think it's worth reflecting on our article creations processes more generally and how we apply our conception of "notability". FloridaArmy (talk) 23:33, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Godber's photographs include "views of the Hutt Valley including large numbers of cars traveling to Trentham Racecourse, and the Hutt River. Another group of images relate to a holiday at the Mendip Hills Homestead in Canterbury, New Zealand with scenes of farm life, including haymaking, merino sheep, and farm buildings. During their stay in the South Island Godber also took photographs of Dunedin (including the Ross Reservoir, Otago Boys' High School, Seacliff Mental Hospital, the 1926 Dunedin Exhibition, and the Hillside Railway Workshops); Invercargill (including the Invercargill Railway Workshops); Stewart Island, Moeraki, Tuatapere, Waiau River, Oamaru and Port Chalmers. Various railway stations in Canterbury and Otago, the Burnside Iron Mills, and the Rosslyn Mills. Godber was a volunteer fireman with the Petone Fire Brigade with the album including views of the building, groups of firemen, fire engines and other fire fighting equipment, and a building in Petone damaged by fire. In his work with New Zealand Railways, mainly at the Petone Railway Workshops, he took interior photographs of various buildings, including the Machine Shop and finishing benches, the engine room, lathes, boilers, and fitting shops. He also took photographs of many of the steam engines that were built and worked on at the workshops. One scene shows a group of men watching a fight. Many images show his interest in logging railways, particularly in the Piha, Karekare, Anawhata area. Scenes of logging camps, various methods of transporting logs including bullock teams, logging trains, and dams created and then tripped to send logs down by river, and timber mills. Other topics covered in Godber's photographs are scenes at Maori marae and meeting houses, with some of the people identified; Maori carving and rafter designs; beekeeping, and gold mining." FloridaArmy (talk) 23:52, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- It's hard to choose which photos to share. Historic views areas, industries, bridges, natural features, railways and bridges, crafts. Here's a link to his photos on Misplaced Pages Commons. Many already illustrate our entries on various subjects. FloridaArmy (talk) 00:01, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
- If you really want to help him, get a couple stories published about him in newspapers. Notability here will follow. Carrite (talk) 01:23, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
Scoop: Heritage Foundation plans to ‘identify and target’ Misplaced Pages editors
That doesn't sound good. From The Forward. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:37, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Being discussed at Misplaced Pages:Village pump (miscellaneous)#Heritage Foundation intending to "identify and target" editors. CMD (talk) 10:08, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Thanks! Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:11, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
- Also discussed at Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Palestine-Israel_articles_5/Evidence#Edit_request and Misplaced Pages:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Heritage_Foundation_planning_to_dox_Wikipedia_editors. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:07, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
Jimbo, could I ask you please to respond to these concerns from Tryptofish?
- ... it's not just if you've edited about Israel-Palestine. It could be if you've edited anything about climate and fossil fuels, gender, immigration, vaccines, and of course, American politics. I doubt that they have the bandwidth to actually identify and harass every editor who could possibly be seen as editing information that goes against a MAGA POV, but they will likely find some easily identified targets, whom they will use to "set an example", as a way of instilling fear in our editing community. I fully expect that, in the coming months, Jimbo Wales will be hauled before a hostile and performative Congressional hearing, much in the manner of university presidents. I hope very much that he will be better prepared than Claudine Gay was.
- Yeah, I know this is grim. But I believe the first step in dealing with this is to go into it with our eyes open, to know what we are dealing with, what motivates it. And, more than harming individual editors, the real objective of Heritage et al. is to instill fear in the rest of us. If we become too fearful to revert POV edits, they win. In a very real sense, we have to keep doing what we have been doing, and continue to be a reliable resource for NPOV information. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:54, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
Sita Bose (talk) 05:33, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- Well, I fully agree that developments in terms of arguments and actions aimed at destroying trust in knowledge (and of course our specific interest, trust in Misplaced Pages) are extremely worrisome, particularly as I agree that for many who are doing it, the motive does appears to be the undermining of civic norms and democracy. I also agree with Tryptofish in a part that you didn't quote: "In a narrow sense, it's technically true that if you "out" yourself, there's no point in anyone else doing it. But once your identity is known, you become vulnerable to all of the kinds of real-life harassment that doxed people find themselves subjected to. It doesn't matter, in that regard, how they found out your identity." That's a sad balancing act that no Wikipedian should have to face.
- As a side note, I don't think that the reliability of the Heritage Foundation as a source is particularly related to these despicable actions. Whether they should be considered a reliable source in some matters is really unrelated to whether they hate us or not.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:14, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
- Suddenly ANI going to court to get user-data seems like the model of gentlemanly behavior. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:51, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
That's a sad balancing act that no Wikipedian should have to face.
Unfortunately, the scales have been inexorably slipping out from beneath the foundation's abilities or willingness to protect its volunteers for my entire wiki-career. There's no balancing force at work. The private equity community has made gadflies out of what we used to label reliable local news media; Alphabet and Meta are actively coopting precision, privacy, and the public domain, while attempting to minimize the effectiveness of good faith actors like Internet Archive. Now suddenly en.wikipedians are facing the sort of personal threats long experienced by volunteers at ru.wiki and zh.wiki. The forces now arrayed against free information don't need to be actively coordinating in order to rapidly bring us to 2+2=5 territory. Any established editor could reasonably see Western culture has been under relentless attack for a long time. Here comes the Heritage Foundation's leaks, hot off Heritage's bangup release of Project 2025, leaking articles through partisan outlets apparently intended to make it appear (in one case) the ADL's recent reliability downgrade at RSNP was anyone else's fault but the ADL's own writings and actions. The news of such activity appears to threaten the community members directly and personally. BusterD (talk) 13:26, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
- Suddenly ANI going to court to get user-data seems like the model of gentlemanly behavior. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:51, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
Talk:Jimmy_Wales#Newer_2024_image?
Hey Mr. Wales, there's a discussion on Talk:Jimmy_Wales#Newer_2024_image? about what image should be used on your Misplaced Pages entry. Figured you may want to chime in with personal opinion about the recent freely-licensed images of you that are presented, as there hasn't been much engagement there at the time of my post. BarntToust 21:32, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
The Signpost: 15 January 2025
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A brownie for you!
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brownie :D Sir Macaw 19:05, 17 January 2025 (UTC) |