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This noticeboard is for discussing the application of the biographies of living people (BLP) policy to article content. Please seek to resolve issues on the article talk page first, and only post here if that discussion requires additional input.

Do not copy and paste defamatory material here; instead, link to a diff showing the problem.

Additional notes:

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• For general content disputes regarding biographical articles, try Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Biographies instead.
• Editors are encouraged to assist editors regarding the reports below. Administrators may impose contentious topic restrictions to enforce policies.

• Refining the administrator elections process
• Blocks for promotional activity outside of mainspace

Poorly sourced Russian spies/ex-spies poisoning claim of Bashar al-Assad

Bashar al-Assad (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) BLP attention is needed. On the talk page I have warned about the Russian spies'/ex-spies' Telegram claim of Bashar al-Assad being poisoned being too poorly sourced. Probably because of al-Assad's status as a fugitive wanted for war crimes and crimes against humanity and as an ex-dictator, few people seem to be bothered with leaving the rumour in place, despite the low quality of the sourcing that all point to a viral rumour based on the General SVR Telegram channel. The WP:WEASELly "may have been" and "it was reported that" seem to be seen as sufficient to justify propagating the rumour, without attribution to General SVR as the source of the claim. After half a day, none of the more regular mainstream media sources appear to have said anything about this, including independent reliable Russian sources such as Meduza and The Moscow Times. Currently there are two sentences with the rumour (one in the lead, one in the body of the article). Diffs:

• Adding the rumour:
  • 08:50, 2 January 2025 by BasselHarfouch source = WP:THESUN
  • 18:49, 2 January 2025 by Bri source = The Economic Times
  • 02:04, 3 January 2025 by Richie1509 source = The Economic Times
  • 04:24, 3 January 2025 by Geraldshields11 source = WP:NEWSWEEK
• Removing individual instances of the rumour:
  • 02:14, 3 January 2025 by me (I didn't realise that other occurrences remained)
  • 04:33, 3 January 2025 by Nikkimaria

Boud (talk) 13:32, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

I see, thanks for letting me know about it. Richie1509 (talk) 13:40, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

See also: Claims of Vladimir Putin's incapacity and death#October 2023 claims of death from the same source. Boud (talk) 17:47, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Thank you for clearing up this point, i was not aware of it. I will be careful in the future BasselHarfouch (talk) 07:24, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Dear @Boud: Thank you for bringing this to my attention. I understand how important it is to maintain high standards for sourcing on Misplaced Pages. When I added the reference to Newsweek, I did so in good faith, as I recall it being a respected publication during my upbringing. I wasn't aware that the community's perception of the source has shifted over time, and I appreciate you pointing this out. If we had talked about it first, I would have gladly reverted it myself. Collaboration and communication are key to building a better encyclopedia, and I value the chance to learn and improve. Thank you again for bringing this to my attention, and I'll be more careful about vetting sources in the future. Please let me know if there's anything else I can do to help address this matter. Geraldshields11 (talk) 17:27, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Joe Manchin

Today we have an unnecessary edit war on BLP outgoing Sen. Joe Manchin (and perhaps many other articles this morning) about the addition of infobox data which is factually incorrect at the time of insertion (, diff]). Nobody is arguing the data, just the timing of the edit. While User:Therequiembellishere is one person jumping the gun, they are a longtime contributor here. Their position should be taken in good faith, IMHO. Also in my opinion, these edits are technically BLP violations because they impart incorrect information. Under policy, such clear BLP violations must be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion (bolding from the original) by ANY editor. This sort of thing might lead to an edit war in which everybody is trying to do the right thing. Note: the page was correctly edited for the change; one click would have changed it at the proper time of transition.

1. Does this sort of thing happen every opening of congress?

2. Isn't this a potential future problem for BLPN, since edit wars on this are built-in to the apparent excitement of awaiting the actual moment of transition?

3. I'm inclined towards timed page protection, but page protection is not normally done preemptively. Here's the page today literally under attack for BLP violations. If we know this is common for transitions of administration, isn't this an exception?

While this noticeboard doesn't normally discuss policy, should we be aware of such disruption in advance? Making it harder for sooner editors like Therequiembellishere who feel... Well, I'll let them make their own affirmative position here if they wish. BusterD (talk) 14:34, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

Page protections is the only way. IMHO, most editors who do these premature changes every two years, don't actually realize it's too early. They seem to assume once mid-night occurs, start updating. GoodDay (talk) 15:24, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

I raise this issue not to cause a problem today. I'm not trying to unduly embarrass any editor for taking a position I don't agree with. On the other hand, we have established BLP policy the hard way through sometimes brutal disagreements about how to carefully calibrate opposing positions based on good faith argument. I trust the BLP policy because we earned it. We don't need to re-learn these lessons. But we could discuss how to proceed next time. BusterD (talk) 15:29, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

In agreement. GoodDay (talk) 15:31, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

Under policy, it would be within the responsibility of any editor to revert these edits and report the editor to this board. But for my starting this conversation, it would be within my remit to revert the edits, fully protect the page and warn Therequiembellishere (and others). I haven't done that. I want the discussion about what to do next time. BusterD (talk) 15:34, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

I understand, this is for the next time around when terms end & begin. PS - I should note, that the premature changes in the BLPs tend to have a ripple effect on related pages. GoodDay (talk) 15:41, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

I've said everything I want on this on Manchin's talk. It's just a lot of pedantry by a few editors with obsessive fealty and exactitude that doesn't meaningfully help anything or anyone, least of all a casual reader. Therequiembellishere (talk) 16:33, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

Verifiability is not "pedantry". Members aren't sworn in until noon EST, correct? – Muboshgu (talk) 16:36, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

I can understand changes being made about 1 or 2 hrs before the actual event, when dealing with so many bios. But 12 hrs before the event, is too early. GoodDay (talk) 16:41, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

Obvious BLP violations are not pedantry. Those edits added provably incorrect information. Can User:Therequiembellishere provide a policy-based answer why those edits do not violate BLP guidance? This is just bad acting under the cover of labelling others. Do they not see that? BusterD (talk) 19:59, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

Therequiembellishere's response here demonstrates we actually have a problem, at least with that user, whose reply here is non-responsive to the issue. BLP policy does indeed require obsessive fealty and exactitude, as long experience with this board has shown. As my OP suggested, any user might justifiably have reverted Therequiembellishere right into 3RR and immediate blocking, just by merely diligently following policy. Therequiembellishere might bookmark this thead for when it happens to them two years from now. I could have done it this morning, but instead chose to create this thread and invite the user to comment. Would preemptive full protection be a reasonable solution to such flippant disruption? BusterD (talk) 20:14, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

I oppose pre-emptive full protection. I strongly support an immediate sitewide block of any repeat offenders, with the block to expire at noon Washington, DC time on the swearing in day. Cullen328 (talk) 21:51, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

I'm with Therequiembellishere on this: a prediction, especially one based on clear US law, is not a false statement or a BLP violation. Joe Manchin's term does end on January 3rd, 2025, and that was still true on January 2nd, 2025. It's, in fact, been true for over a month now. The only way it could end on a different day would be if Joe Manchin had died before then, which would obviously be a BLP violation to assume.

(Unlike Therequiembellishere I don't even think the opposition is pedantry. Pedants are technically correct; to say that the end of Joe Manchin's term was not January 3rd before January 3rd is not even technically correct. It's just false.) Loki (talk) 07:43, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

IMO the issue is not the term ending time but the claim Joe Manchin served as senator etc when he was still serving as a senator at the time. Nil Einne (talk) 10:50, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

For further clarity. I think our readers reasonably understand our articles might be outdated. So if the article says Joe Manchin is serving and his term ended a few hours ago or even a few days ago that's fine. I mean in other cases it's reasonable to expect them to even be weeks or months out of date. But if out article says Joe Manchin served, I think they reasonable would expect he is no longer serving. As I understand it, there's no more issue. But if this reoccurs, I'm not sure Cullen328's solution is correct. I mean if some admin is volunteering to mollycoddle each repeat offender then okay I guess. But otherwise the norm is we expect editors to obey our policy and guidelines by themselves without needing handholding in the form of continual blocks everytime something comes up to stop them. Therefore I'd suggest either an admin subject them to escalating blocks quickly leading up to an indefinite if they repeat perhaps under BLP or AP2; or we do it via community bans. While I'd personally be fine with a site ban, it might be more palatable to the rest of the community if we instead do it as a topic ban on making such changes. With a clear topic ban, hopefully an admin will be more willing to subject them to escalating blocks. Even if not, I think the community would be much more willing to siteban such editors if they repeat after a community topic ban. As a final comment, I also don't see why editor feels it's something so urgent that they need to do it 12 hours in advance. This almost seems one of those lame edits we sometimes get at the ANs resulting from the apparent desire of an editor to be first or get the credit so we have editors creating "drafts" with basically zero content long before there's anything to write about then some other editor is sick of this editor doing this and so ignores the draft and makes their own. Nil Einne (talk) 12:59, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Technically speaking, if you are still serving you also have served. So it's not technically speaking false, although this really is pedantry and I would not say it's the most true possible statement.

I'm still not convinced it's a BLP violation, though. Loki (talk) 04:24, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

I think the argument is being made @LokiTheLiar:, that editing in someone is no longer holding an office, when they still are & somebody has assumed office, when they haven't yet, is problematic. GoodDay (talk) 16:24, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

I concur with User:GoodDay. The problem is that such an edit violates WP:NOT, specifically WP:CRYSTALBALL. Yes, it was highly likely and in fact Joe Manchin did survive to January 3, 2025 and completed his last term as a senator as everyone had expected. But posting that information to his infobox before that date was horribly premature. There was no way to know in advance if his term would have been ended prematurely by any number of unpredictable awful scenarios. For example, the end date for the term of Secretary of Transportation Ron Brown is April 3, 1996, the day he died in a plane crash. WP is not in the business of predicting those scenarios. We simply designate a current office holder as "incumbent" and then we add on an end date when we actually reach an end date one way or another. --Coolcaesar (talk) 07:13, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

@BusterD: maybe a RFC or something is required, to establish how to handle future premature changes to such bios. GoodDay (talk) 22:31, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Taylor Lorenz BLP issues and harassment of subject based on article contents

The Taylor Lorenz article has an unusual history in the sense that the contents of the article have led to harassment of Lorenz in the past, or other issues impacting her financially.

Most recently it was regarding her date of birth and Misplaced Pages choosing to use a date range, with the allegations being that it was Lorenz choosing to keep her birthdate off of the Internet or being deceitful.

1. FreeBeacon
2. TimesOfIndia
3. Lorenz Substack
4. SoapCentral
5. RedState
6. Lorenz BlueSky
7. Twitchy
8. FoxNews
9. BlueSky
10. FreeBeacon

There have also seemingly been issues according to Lorenz with errors in the article causing her lost business opportunities See here

"This insane 100% false story is affecting my brand deals and some partnership stuff I have in the works for 2025, so I really need it corrected ASAP!!!"

An addition of a 'Harassment and coordinated attacks' section was added in August of last year, with additional information being added shortly after regarding a Twitter suspension. I moved the text around recently in an attempt at a more neutral article that was quickly reverted. A TalkPage discussion followed shortly after but there hasn't been a policy based consensus.

My question- should we have a devoted harassment section included for someone who has been harassed based on her Misplaced Pages profile previously? It seems like WP:AVOIDVICTIM comes into play with directly focusing attention on her being a victim and could lead to further harassment by highlighting it with equal weight as her career section.

Personally I think the material could be presented more neutrally per WP:STRUCTURE but wanted to get a wider opinion.

There is also a discussion currently going on if we should include her year of birth here. Awshort (talk) 20:57, 5 January 2025 (UTC) 04:50, 6 January 2025 (UTC) Fixed incorrect diff

@Awshort it looks like the paragraph below got moved past your signature, and therefor appears orphaned.

Delectopierre (talk) 02:06, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

Removing the harassment section furthers the narrative that there are no coordinated harassment campaigns against her, and acts to diminish the effect those coordinated campaigns have wrought upon her. Generally speaking, victims of harassment don't want what they've gone through to be diminished.

I am unaware of any evidence that discussing harassment on wiki for her, or in general, leads to further harassment. If that evidence exists, I'd certainly be wiling to change my stance.

Delectopierre (talk) 08:19, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

We don't take a stance on supporting a narrative for something - we neutrally present both sides of an argument based on their prevalence in reliable sources; nothing more and nothing less. Our only priority is making sure it's presented neutrally, above all other content policies. In essence, we don't take a side and if something reads as though it is biased to one side it should be rewritten.

Regarding coordinated harassment - If an incident regarding a public figure is significant it will have received plenty of third party sources reporting on it. I spent a few hours looking over sources for anything mentioning her harassment being coordinated and third party coverage supporting it and came up almost empty on third party coverage. And the main source of her mentioning harassment was her ,while on her book tour.

I did find that Lorenz mentioned being harassed in several deleted tweets. The only two sources I could find in support of anything involving the words "coordinated harassment campaign" or similar were from Lorenz discussing the Libs Of Tik Tok backlash (It’s eye opening to see how sophisticated & vicious these coordinated attacks have become.,

1. IWMF organization post the day after the Carlson incident (Carlson’s commentary is a deliberate, deeply dangerous effort to mobilize harassment toward Lorenz. which included a quoted Tweet from Lorenz stating she had suffered from a smear campaign
2. Media Manipulation brief by her friend Emily Dreyfuss Lorenz is a frequent target of coordinated harassment campaigns that include being swatted, stalked, which would be a WP:COISOURCE due to the friendship, and more than likely not considered a reliable source due to no fact checking on a brief or editorial oversight and a lot of it is opinion based.

We present information neutrally and let readers come to their own conclusion. "The aim is to inform, not influence."

Going by "we consider a viewpoint's prevalence in reliable sources, not its prevalence among Misplaced Pages editors or the general public." in WP:DUE, there doesn't seem to be support for her harassment being considered coordinated.

You had previously listed sources in support of the above. I mentioned both IWMF and the Media Manipulation brief from your list above, but wanted to cover the other two as well.

1. TheInformation link - No stranger to digital harassment, doxxing or the dangers of online celebrity, Lorenz Does not support the above.
2. Forbes link - Right-Wing Figures Attack Journalist Taylor Lorenz For Revealing Creator Of ‘Libs Of TikTok’ Fails WP:RSHEADLINES.

If you have other sources in support of it then I am open to reconsidering my position. My main concern is just presenting the text neutrally and if there could be further issues for the article subject that could arise from having a dedicated harassment section. It's a low possibility, but I also never thought I would see a range for a year of birth used to harass someone so that was a first.

Awshort (talk) 02:12, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

You asked a question

My question- should we have a devoted harassment section included for someone who has been harassed based on her Misplaced Pages profile previously? It seems like WP:AVOIDVICTIMcomes into play with directly focusing attention on her being a victim and could lead to further harassment by highlighting it with equal weight as her career section.

and I replied to it.

Delectopierre (talk) 02:33, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

I see that. I thought you had replied to work towards a policy based consensus since this was also in the above A TalkPage discussion followed shortly after but there hasn't been a policy based consensus., and since it was a section you added I also assumed you wanted to address the neutrality issues.

Awshort (talk) 20:16, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

Delectopierre I believe you meant your post, but I wasn't sure. I attempted a fix that looked good on the post preview but if this was not what you meant please feel free to revert my edit and accept my apologies.

Awshort (talk) 01:51, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

You're right. My mistake. That's what I get for editing late at night. Delectopierre (talk) 02:27, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

List of pornographic performers by decade

• List of pornographic performers by decade (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

List of pornographic performers by decade is a remarkable article in that it has existed for 20 years and yet, if I were to follow WP:BLPREMOVE to the letter right now, I would have to cut the article down to its first sentence, the section headings, and a single see-also. Saying "X is a pornographic performer" is, obviously, a contentious claim, and as such every entry needs its own citation; it's not enough to rely on the articles as their own de facto citations, as is the tolerated practice for noncontroversial lists like List of guitarists. This is all the more the case because the definition of "pornographic performer" is subjective. With help from Petscan, I've found the following people on the list who are not described in their articles as pornographic performers: Fiona Richmond, Amouranth, F1NN5TER, Kei Mizutani, Uta Erickson, Isabel Sarli, Fumio Watanabe, Louis Waldon, Nang Mwe San, Piri, Megan Barton-Hanson, Aella (writer). Many (all?) of them are sex workers of some sort, so in each case, there may be a reliable source that exists that calls them a pornographic performer, but without one, it's a flagrant BLP violation. And if it were just those, I'd remove them and be done with it, but even for the ones whose articles do call them pornographic performers, there's no guarantee of being right. I removed Miriam Rivera from the list after seeing that an IP had removed the mentions of porn in her article, which had indeed been sourced to a press release about a fictionalized depiction of her life. No, each of these entries needs an individual citation appearing on the list article so that the claims can be judged.

So, there are about 650 entries, and we know at least some are questionable, and we cannot assume that any of the rest are correct. What do we do? Again, the letter-of-BLP answer here is to remove the unsourced items, but that would leave literally nothing. The only two citations in the whole thing are to search pages on two non-RS porn databases. So at that point we might as well apply WP:BLPDELETE. Another solution would be to find sources for, I don't know, two or three people in each heading, just so it's not empty, remove everything else, and stick {{incomplete list}} there. A third option is AfD. Does anyone have any ideas?

P.S. I haven't even looked at other lists of pornographic performers. Are they all like this? -- Tamzin (they|xe|🤷) 05:01, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

I don't have a solution to this @Tamzin, but the first name I looked at was Isabel Sarli. Her article references her full frontal appearance and describes it as sexploitation. Sexploitation films are not pornographic films. I can't see any mention of pornographic acting in her article? This is a problem. Knitsey (talk) 05:11, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

Doing some spot-checking, Kōji Wakamatsu is described in his article as a director of pink films but not as an actor – and it does not seem as though pink films are necessarily pornographic; Harry S. Morgan is categorised as a porn actor but the text of the article does not seem to support this. Clearly there's a problem here. Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 05:57, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

Hm, yes, per WP:BLP each LP on this list should have a decent ref (better than Internet Adult Film Database, see ), and it wouldn't hurt the others either. I'm slightly reminded of a complaint I made at Talk:Holocaust_denial/Archive_21#Notable_Holocaust_deniers. It's not the same, but it's still sensitive. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:26, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

Btw, per List of pornographic actors who appeared in mainstream films and List of actors in gay pornographic films, it seems they're not all like that, but List of British pornographic actors lists people without WP-articles, my knee-jerk reaction is that that's not good. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:35, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

List of British pornographic actors most seem to be referenced using "International Adult Film Database" which is user generated. Imdb for born actors. Knitsey (talk) 07:45, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

Talk:List_of_British_pornographic_actors#People_without_WP-articles. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:51, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

I'll be honest, I thought we'd dealt with this before and it was no longer a problem. I'm sure in previous discussions we're generally agrees such lists should only contain notable individuals with articles i.e. no black links or red links (if an editor believes someone is notable they need to create the article first). I thought we'd also agreed to strictly require inline citations when adding names regardless of what the individual articles say. I couldn't find many of the previous discussions though but did find we seem to have a lot more of these lists in the past. Nil Einne (talk) 09:48, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

I'm aware of a few circumstances in which pornographic actors faced serious obstacles in their lives after leaving the industry and tried hard to separate themselves from their prior career. I would hope, in these cases, we respect their wishes and just leave them off. Simonm223 (talk) 12:16, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

Depending on situation, we might or we might not. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:24, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

My main concern is for people who have explicitly expressed that they no longer want to be public people, being honest. Those who have struggled to transition to non-pornographic acting, music, etc. is less of my concern. Simonm223 (talk) 12:38, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

That's understandable but it runs into issues with WP:PUBLICFIGURE where editors think that once someone is a public figure, it is forever.

Recently there was I believe the son of a lady who had appeared in Playboy a long time ago who had asked for her article to be removed on BLPN. The specifics that I remember are vague, but essentially she had been a Playmate one year and editors had built an article for her even though she was a relatively private person other than the fact she was in Playboy in the early 80's. The family member had suggested that the article basically loomed over her head and caused harm to her reputation since it was something she did once 30+ years ago and distanced herself from almost immediately. I can't say i disagree that in cases like that, there shouldn't be an article.

Awshort (talk) 15:40, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

I wasn't aware of that specific case but that is precisely the sort of circumstance under which I think a private person's right to privacy should be weighed more important than Misplaced Pages completionism. Simonm223 (talk) 15:43, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

I'm reminded of Richard Desmond per . Other end of the scale, perhaps. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:49, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

Nil Einne You may be thinking of this discussion which you commented on.

Awshort (talk) 16:13, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

I don't think it was really that, although I did forget about it so thanks for reminding me. One of the issues with that list is since it was such a high profile case I felt it likely there would at least be secondary source coverage, and also as pornographic appearances go, I feel being Playmate is a lot less controversial than other stuff; so while it was bad, I didn't feel it quite as severe as most of the other stuff we're doing or have been doing. I was thinking of older discussions probably especially the RfC below. Nil Einne (talk) 17:14, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

I don't know where to get sources for this. I would suggest doing as you say, and cutting every non-verifiable person from the page. Anyone interested can hunt down acceptable sources for each entry. GeogSage 01:49, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

Given the lack of referencing and the entries included in error, pointed out above, then I would be in favour of removing every unreferenced entry on the list. If that leaves literally nothing, well - AFD. If somebody really wants this information, well, categories exist. Bastun 14:40, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

I would support this as well, and honestly would probably still vote to delete a list with only the referenced entries if it were brought at AfD. A list page doing the job of one or several category pages and nothing more has no purpose. Choucas Bleu 🐦‍⬛ 13:22, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Would a blank-and-soft-redirect to Category:Pornographic film actors be a good solution here? That way the list is still in the history for anyone who wants to restore it with references. The "by decade" might be misleading in that case, but we could first reverse the hard redirect from List of pornographic performers, which this probably should have been at anyways. Another option would be a list of lists at Lists of pornographic performers and redirecting there. -- Tamzin (they|xe|🤷) 18:06, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

I think your first suggestion is a good idea, I'd support that for sure. Definitely less favorable to a list of lists though. Choucas Bleu 🐦‍⬛ 20:28, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

• I knew we had a lengthy RfC/Discussion about this subject matter, it just took me a while to find it though – Unreferenced lists and porn stars RFC, and also this AfD as well. Discussions are ten years old, but I don't think anything in the lengthy close of the RfC has changed. I was one of the volunteers who helped add refs to this article → List of pornographic actors who appeared in mainstream films, which if I recall correctly, was the impetus for the RfC. Good luck, sourcing these types of lists are a massive chore. Isaidnoway (talk) 16:03, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

  RFC closer said in 2014:

  Q: Should all pre-existing lists of porn performers have a reliable source supporting each entry?

  A: The rough consensus below is that it's always more controversial to call someone a porn performer than to say they're engaged in most other professions. A reliable source should be added for every entry that's challenged or likely to be challenged. But as a concession to the practicalities, editors are asked not to go through the pre-existing lists making large-scale and unilateral challenges, as this will overwhelm the people who maintain these lists with work, and there is a legitimate concern that this is unfair. If you do intend to remove unsourced entries, please proceed at a reasonable, non-disruptive speed dealing with what you judge to be the highest-priority cases first. If you could easily source an entry yourself, then removing it as unsourced is rather unhelpful. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:21, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

  Well, removing ~650 entries after 10 years of the list's maintainers doing nothing to fix this would average out to, what, ~1.2 per week since that RfC? That seems like a reasonable, non-disruptive speed to me. Courtesy ping @S Marshall. -- Tamzin (they|xe|🤷) 16:50, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

  Yes, I do vaguely remember making that close ten years ago. I agree that it's appropriate to implement its outcome in full now.—S Marshall T/C 17:58, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

  I support that. GeogSage 01:51, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

Based on discussion above, I have redirected the list to Category:Pornographic actors. This way, the content is still there in the history, and can be restored by any editor willing to take the time to dig up the sources. If anyone objects, I'm happy to argue the case at AfD. -- Tamzin (they|xe|🤷) 03:40, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Good enough. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 05:51, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

For the interested, Talk:List_of_British_pornographic_actors#People_without_WP-articles is ongoing. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:52, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

@Tamzin: Citations are a WP:SURMOUNTABLE issue. In 2018 (example here), every BLP entry required and had WP:RS citations. Editors at the time considered the requirement to be overkill, and a requirement for an existing WP article supported by good references was deemed sufficient. It was a compromise among editors. Does selectively restoring the sourced 2018 content and then re-adding male, non-binary and new female entries that can be sourced sound like a viable plan to you? • Gene93k (talk) 11:21, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Do you consider AVN (magazine) a good enough source in context? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:38, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

AVN's newsroom content is considered reliable as noted at WP:RSPS. Caution must be applied in distinguishing hard news reporting from repackaged press releases. If an AVN citation is not good enough, other references that sustain notability for the existing stand-alone WP article can be brought in to overcome any BLP concerns. • Gene93k (talk) 11:53, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

@Gene93k: I find it very strange for an article to have had a recentish consensus to move away from a more BLP-compliant version. But I guess overall I'm relieved to know that there was a more compliant version once. Yes, definitely no objection to restoring the sourced version, as long as the sources used are reliable, and then to adding back previously-unsourced entries as people find sources for them. If you do so, let me know, and I'll go retarget all the redirects that have just been retargeted to the category. -- Tamzin (they|xe|🤷) 00:49, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Beyoncé

Looks like Beyoncé fan club president is editing the article and 50.100.81.254 (talk) 10:48, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Hi, anon! Please talkpage your concerns. When you do, please state with specificity what's wrong with each edit and why (policies/guidelines). Your diffs, in light of the normal editing process, don't indicate a severe BLP violation or failure to find consensus on the talkpage. Cheers. JFHJr (㊟) 23:37, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

They really could use some help......the article has been dominated by single purpose account for some time and their buddy. As mentioned longstanding problem Moxy🍁 17:58, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

Kith Meng

This person's Misplaced Pages page is being continually changed to remove any mentions of well-documented accusations against him, often by Misplaced Pages accounts that are named after his companies. Now somebody who seems to be a bit more knowledgeable about Misplaced Pages has removed all of the references to crime and corruption, despite them being widely reported on by the press, claiming that it violates Misplaced Pages's policies to mention any accusations if they haven't been proven in court. But many of the incidents mentioned are verifiable, even if he wasn't actually convicted of a crime over them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Khatix (talk • contribs) 07:37, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

FYI, this is the disputed edit by Georgeee101 who raised BLPCRIME. I guess the question is whether Meng is a WP:PUBLICFIGURE for the allegations to be reinstated. That could be done through a RfC. Morbidthoughts (talk) 22:21, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

I have to be honest, I don't know what that means. I am not a big Wikipedian, I just do edits to articles about Cambodia. Kith Meng is pretty notorious here, there are countless independent articles about some of his antics. But I noticed that his Misplaced Pages page kept getting updated by somebody whose username was the name of one of his companies. I kept undoing them, which wasn't a big deal because they were mostly unsourced, written in poor English. But these new edits are also sanitizing his Misplaced Pages page, removing all of the corruption and scandals and reading like one of his publicity announcements, but this time by somebody who seems to know what they're doing. clicking undo didn't do anything. I assume he hired a specialist. Khatix (talk) 14:18, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

It means you should start a discussion on the talk page of the article on whether the allegations should be included given the available sources that are reporting on them. If there is not enough participation, you can notify Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Cambodia or request a WP:RfC for outside comment. You should also assume good faith on the intentions of other editors and not presume that they are undisclosed paid editors. Morbidthoughts (talk) 22:27, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

Thanks, I started a discussion and included some different sources from the different media outlets. If nobody responds for awhile, is it alright for me to unilaterally edit it again? I am not sure what the rules are for trying to settle these sorts of disagreements. I used to always change it back when the account removing the corruption allegations was openly his PR team, but I am a bit nervous about being seen as a vandal if I undo it now that it's somebody else. Khatix (talk) 11:26, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Now that it's been disputed under BLP grounds, you must gain consensus before reinstating them. That is why I encourage you to notify Wikiproject Cambodia of the discussion and then a RfC to gather more participation. Morbidthoughts (talk) 21:43, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Sami Zayn

Personal life section frequently vandalized with biased, possibly libelous pro-Israel propaganda citing biased sources. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.223.20.111 (talk) 12:41, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

ScottishFinnishRadish blocked Jayadwaita for a week. Thank you SFR! I'll also watch the page for future unconstructive edits. Cheers! JFHJr (㊟) 00:16, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

Pronouns

A request for assistance: The subject of the article Karen Yeats asked me about the best way to update their article to reflect the fact that they use they/them pronouns. This is clearly attested to on their personal webpage and also can be seen e.g. in (a recent biographical blurb for an invited presentation). Two questions:

1. Is this sourcing sufficient to make the change? (I think yes but I don't edit biographies much so would appreciate confirmation.)
2. Is it normal, when making such a change, to leave a comment in the article (either text or a footnote) indicating that the subject uses they/them? Or just to write it that way and expect that readers can work it out?

Thanks, JBL (talk) 18:14, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

Standard practice is that WP:ABOUTSELF sources are adequate for pronouns, except in rare cases where there's reason to doubt someone's sincerity. Usually, someone's pronouns bear mention in a personal life section, same as other gender and sexuality things. Whether to include an explanatory note on first reference is a matter of stylistic discretion; personally, having written a few articles on nonbinary people, I use an {{efn}} if I expect it to confuse readers (either they/them or surprising binary pronouns like with F1NN5TER). -- Tamzin (they|xe|🤷) 18:23, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

Thanks very much, Tamzin. Since there is no personal life section of this bio and to stave off possible confusion, I went with an efn; how does look to you? --JBL (talk) 18:42, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

Looks good! Check out {{pronoun pair}} if you want to be pedantic about italics and kerning. -- Tamzin (they|xe|🤷) 18:55, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

Uncontentious but still poorly/not sourced info about a living person

On Chetan Bhagat#author's page (since I can't copy and paste the message, his article is short and you can find the parts on there, it's under the "author" section of career) there are areas where it says "citation needed", but I don't think the material is contentious. Do I still need to remove the material ASAP? Wikieditor662 (talk) 06:30, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

I am personally very strict with unsourced content, regardless of it being contentious or not. Generally, however, if the content has been tagged for a reasonable time and remains unsourced, feel free to remove. GiantSnowman 10:47, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

Thanks, but how do I find out how long it's been up for, and what counts as a "reasonable time"? Wikieditor662 (talk) 21:52, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

Edit the article, and you will see the date tag - on Chetan Bhagat they are October 2024, so 3 months. Reasonable time is a judgement call. GiantSnowman 22:05, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

Is there at least a rough range for what should count as reasonable time? Weeks? Months? Years? Wikieditor662 (talk) 22:29, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

42 seconds. Or days. YMMV. JFHJr (㊟) 23:22, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

For me, how long to wait to remove depends on the type of content. For example, clearly promotional unsourced content I may just remove without tagging, but other content I may never remove regardless of how long it's been tagged. In this particular article, I would be inclined to remove a sentence such as "It became India's fastest-selling book of its time" pretty quickly. However, a sentence such as "The story was adapted by film director Rajkumar Hirani into a film named 3 Idiots starring Aamir Khan, R. Madhavan, Sharman Joshi, and Kareena Kapoor" with blue wikilinks to the film and the actors is likely something I would never remove unless it appeared false since it is not a lot more effort to go the wikilinked page and copy a citation for something as basic as that information. – notwally (talk) 00:04, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

Alright, I removed the sentence about it being one of India's fastest selling books of all time. Wikieditor662 (talk) 00:09, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

• Yes this article is heavily unsourced, however, I don't see anything harmful here thus I think "citation needed" tags for sometime will be fine before cleanup of unsourced information. Devopam (talk) 04:27, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

Jim Justice

In relation to the above discussion about Joe Manchin, an editor (@Eoqkr75:) keeps putting in that Jim Justice is now a US Senator. Justice doesn't assume his Senate seat until January 14, 2025. GoodDay (talk) 14:54, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

Scott Ritter Biography - Noncompliance with MOS and BLP Guidelines

I am requesting approval to fix issues in the Scott Ritter article regarding the description of his convictions. The article states in its second sentence: He is a convicted child sex offender. Labeling Ritter as a "child sex offender" carries moral judgment and appears to be name-calling, which the MOS explicitly warns against. According to MOS:CONVICTEDFELON: Labels such as "convicted sex offender" are imprecise and could be construed as name-calling or a moral judgement. It is better to describe the specific crime itself. The current wording fails to comply with this guideline.

2) Undue Weight: MOS:CONVICTEDFELON states that legal issues should only be highlighted in the lead if central to a person’s notability, which is not the case with Ritter's convictions. His notable career as a UN weapons inspector and outspoken critic of the Iraq War is the basis for his fame, not his convictions. Placing this legal information in the second sentence gives it undue prominence, overshadowing his primary achievements. Convictions for online communications with an undercover officer are not what make Ritter notable, as many non-notable individuals face similar charges and nobody is writing their Misplaced Pages bios.

3) Imprecision: The term child sex offender in the Ritter bio links to the article for child sexual abuse, which that article defines as a form of child abuse in which an adult or older adolescent uses a child for sexual stimulation, whereas Ritter's convictions involved contact with an adult undercover police officer posing as a minor. This distinction is significant and misrepresented by the current label.

To bring the article in line with Misplaced Pages's policies, I propose we replace He is a convicted child sex offender with: In 2011, Ritter was convicted of several criminal offenses following an undercover sting operation, during which he engaged in sexually explicit online communications with a police officer posing as a minor. This phrasing avoids imprecise labeling and provides accurate context.

Placement Adjustment: Move this information to a "Legal issues" or "Controversies" section later in the article, ensuring balance and compliance with the undue weight guideline. However, since this information is already covered in the body, we should simply remove the statement from the first paragraph, or move it down to the bottom of the second paragraph.

I attempted to edit the article to reflect these changes, but my edits were reverted with the explanation that "there was consensus found to include this in the lead." However, no justification was provided for how the current wording and placement comply with MOS and BLP policies. I raised my concerns on the article's Talk Page, but they have not been addressed. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 19:24, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

I don't think "convicted sex offender" is particularly useful in a lead given the breadth of its meaning, and I think it makes far more sense to describe the conviction. The current lead does seem to violate the MOS guideline. – notwally (talk) 19:37, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

I've changed this per the suggestion. Hopefully the problem is solved. Hemiauchenia (talk) 21:03, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

An editor just reverted the changes without discussion () after I had already made an article talk page comment about this BLPN topic and the violation of MOS policies (). Lardlegwarmers (talk) 21:59, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

We're instructed not to make stand alone controversies sections etc so that would be the opposite of balance and compliance with the undue weight guideline unless I'm missing something here. Do you mean as a seperate section of the lead? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 01:01, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

Doing like it was in this diff: would be good; a more accurate sentence, at the bottom of the lead, that gives details about the conviction. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 01:20, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

Yes that is preferable, in the lead but not in the first sentence. I think we could say less than that though. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:02, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

Please note that That One Editor has once again reverted it to being the less-detailed version in the first paragraph (after having been stymied on a campaign to add unsourced or miss-sourced material to the full sentence.) Can we get more hands on this? -- Nat Gertler (talk) 20:05, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

@Horse Eye's Back Would you like to propose some language? The key is that we should briefly but accurately state the facts of his conviction instead of labeling his person as such. It seems notable that the convictions resulted from a sting operation (versus contact with an actual minor). Lardlegwarmers (talk) 01:41, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

How about "In 2011, Ritter was convicted of criminal offenses after engaging in sexually explicit online communications with a police officer posing as a minor." Pretty close to OP's proffer but a little shorter. JFHJr (㊟) 01:59, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

• Now at AE, see Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Luganchanka. Hemiauchenia (talk) 20:27, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

I'm not sure it should be in the lead at all as it doesn't seem like the thing that made him notable. However, if he is only notable for the combination of his offense plus his other work then the lead should make that clear. As a stand alone fact it should either be at the end of the lead or not at all. Springee (talk) 21:20, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

He is only notable for his other career activities. The criminal offenses by themselves fail notability. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 05:45, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

WP:LEDE is supposed to summarize the article rather than merely stating the notability of the subject. The article has a top-level "§Arrests and conviction for sex offenses" section, so a sentence in the lede noting that aspect of the topic is reasonable. Per CONVICTEDFELON, the fact that it's not specifically relevant to his notability means it can go fairly late in the lede rather than in the first sentence where the person is identified and notability established. In contrast with the CONVICTEDFELON thought about not including it at all per Tim Allen, that person's article does not have a top-level section about it. And unlike that case, where it seems to be an isolated biographical aspect, here there is at least a mention in the criminality section that does relate to the Iraq aspect, which is a major part of his notability. DMacks (talk) 04:49, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

RfC:

To settle the issue once and for all, I have created an RfC on the adice of RTH at AE, see Talk:Scott_Ritter#RfC:_Ritter's_sexual_sex_offenses_convictions. Hemiauchenia (talk) 16:00, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

@Hemiauchenia: the consensus ("Providing clarity that Ritter's offenses were not with an actual child was the consensus of the BLPN discussion and I think is the most reasonable position.") you describe on that talk page as existing here doesn't appear to exist. Was it a different discussion being referenced? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:57, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

I agree that there is no consensus about the "actual child" aspect. The consensus that seems to be forming here is that the crime should be described per MOS:CRIMINAL rather than merely using a term such as "child sex offender". – notwally (talk) 22:22, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Peter Berg

There seems to be some editing back and forth going on in the Personal Life section re: Caitlyn Jenner controversy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fearlessfool (talk • contribs) 01:53, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

What's the back and forth? There don't seem to be recent back and forth problems in the edit history. Do you mean WP:UNDUE discussion in the prose? Please feel free to voice your concern on the article talkpage before escalating here. This is a forum for when consensus isn't apparent or serious BLP violations occur. JFHJr (㊟) 03:07, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

I don't see any back and forth either, but in my view, using WP:TMZ as the sole source for that paragraph is a BLPVIO. Isaidnoway (talk) 08:45, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

I gave it a shot. If you'd still like to replace the TMZ cite with a cn tag, I wouldn't dispute it. Cheers! JFHJr (㊟) 00:29, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

I don't think leaving it unsourced is the best solution, so I just replaced TMZ with better sources, since it received widespread coverage in multiple sources. I do appreciate your effort though. Thanks. Isaidnoway (talk) 14:49, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Sandra Kälin

This article and its references are a combination of two different people (de:Sandra Kälin to see the german article for both), how should this be best addressed? Split and 2 Stubs? Nobody (talk) 09:40, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Yep. JFHJr (㊟) 21:34, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Coréon Dú

I tried removing promotional-sounding text and irrelevant citations on this article a while back. I also rewrote the section on nepotism and his work which has now been blanked.

Theyve been reverted and the sections on criticism marked as disputed, by an account that has only edited this article: .

Could someone take a look? — Preceding unsigned comment added by FossilWave (talk • contribs) 20:03, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Michael Caton-Jones

This article features the following paragraph thatwas removed today by an IP (wwho otherwise seems to be engaged in puffery - adding various unsourced awards cruft, referring to the subject by his first name)

Caton-Jones has been accused of sexual harassment with Sharon Stone alleging in Vogue Portugal that during the shooting of Basic Instinct 2 he asked her to sit on his lap to receive directions and refused to shoot if she did not do so. She stated "I can say we all hated that and I think the film reflects the quality of the atmosphere we all worked in”.

It previously linked to this as a source - https://www.vogue.pt/sharon-stone-interview, a page which no longer exists but did as recently as December 19 last year https://web.archive.org/web/20241219112132/https://www.vogue.pt/sharon-stone-interview

In that original article the actual quote is "I loved doing most of my films. Hated? Well, I worked with a director on Basic 2 who asked me to sit on his lap each day to receive his direction, and when I refused he wouldn’t shoot me."

Basic Instinct 2 was directed by Caton James but original source doesn't name him. The subsequent source cited at the end of the paragraph does however - https://www.ibtimes.co.in/you-got-hired-if-you-were-fkable-says-sharon-stone-recreate-basic-instinct-scene-797651

The orginal story about "a director" is well sourced in various pirces from around the time of the publication of Stone's memoir. https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2021/03/sharon-stone-on-how-basic-instinct-nearly-broke-her?srsltid=AfmBOoqO1KjUnXmRZSUZYl3RHgCqkYT8itBvDv6BJg7kNDOESs8wjd-5 , https://deadline.com/2021/03/sharon-stone-me-too-experiences-the-beauty-of-living-memoir-news-1234718660/

Should this paragraph be in the article? It feels like SYNTH to name him as the subject of the allegation, but there is at least one source that does so. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Golikom (talk • contribs) 12:19, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

WP:Syn is intended to stop us connecting different things when no reliable secondary source has made the connection. It does not apply to connections made by reliable secondary sources. However per WP:RSPS International Business Times is not generally considered reliable so if that's the only source then there are no sources and it would be syn to add it to Caton-Jones article based on sources talking about Stone's allegation and other sources which say he was the director but which don't mention Stone's allegation. Nil Einne (talk) 06:29, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

I should further clarify that appearing in a reliable secondary source doesn't guarantee inclusion, it just means syn isn't really our concern any more but instead issues like WP:UNDUE etc. Nil Einne (talk) 09:34, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Ido Kedar

This one is a bit strange. I am bringing it here because I do not wish to be directly involved but it may warrant neutral eyes. The subject, Ido Kedar is non-verbal and suffers from autism. He has two books which are said to be authored by him, runs a blog, and does presentations. At one stage he was using facilitated communication which has serious problems and is certainly pseudoscience, but videos also show him independently typing on an iPad keyboard. Those videos makes it look a lot more like augmentative and alternative communication, which is credible. Anyway, the AFD is going down the lines of accusing the subject, who is a living person whether or not he has autism, of not having written anything and being incapable of communication. I'm concerned that such accusations are degrading, especially if, as the sources claim, he is capable of communication and also considering that there are no BLP sources that say he is not. I am not sure of the best way of tackling this, but if he can communicate, as the sources claim, unsourced accusations that it is faked and that he is having his fingers dragged by someone else across a keyboard seem like BLP violations instead of the usual AFD discourse. - Bilby (talk) 10:34, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Wow, yes, it's completely clear that he can communicate independently at this point. I was hoping Misplaced Pages had got over this panic of erasing everybody who has ever used anything that looks anything life FC/RPM. Thanks for bringing it here.

One video of him communicating independently, for reference. Oolong (talk) 08:09, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

I'm less concerned as to whether or not he communicates independently. I am concerned that he may communicate independently, and statements such as "Someone grabbed his fingers and moved them on a keyboard to type a lot of stuff" or "our article about how he has written books is fiction" are degrading and feel like BLP concerns. If there is a possibility that he can communicate, direct unsourced accusations such as this are extremely insulting. - Bilby (talk) 09:46, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Bilby, what do you suggest? The BLP policy clearly applies to the AfD discussion. I agree that there are comments in that discussion that are contrary to some of the BLP policy, especially the parts about removing "contentious material ... that is unsourced or poorly sourced" (I'd say your quotes falls into this category) and never using SPS "as sources of material about a living person, unless written or published by the subject of the article" (some people have linked to / referenced blogs). Once or twice I've removed content from articles for BLP violations, but I've never removed an editor's comments from a discussion, and I'm hesitant to do so, partly because I'm not that experienced an editor (though I'm not a newbie) and also because of my extensive participation in that AfD discussion. I guess I'll start by simply posting a reminder of the relevant parts of the BLP policy and asking people to check their own comments (and I'll check mine). Do you have any guidance about whether something else should be done? And if any other editors have guidance, please weigh in. Thanks, FactOrOpinion (talk) 15:58, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

Kevin Cooper (prisoner)

It seems to me that great chunks of this article are in breach of WP:SUMMARYSTYLE and WP:NOTBLOG. Just checking whether other experienced BLP editors agree? Looking at the article history, it seems there's been some problem editing, which isn't too much of a surprise, given the state the article is in. --Dweller (talk) Old fashioned is the new thing! 12:39, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

OK, I guess I'm on my own on this. I'll get out a scythe. --Dweller (talk) Old fashioned is the new thing! 18:17, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

Darrel Kent

Darrel Kent (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

User:Earl Andrew keeps adding contentious material about the article subject back into the article:

• https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Darrel_Kent&diff=prev&oldid=1269810226
• https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Darrel_Kent&diff=prev&oldid=1269816467

I posted a notice on the talk page, see User talk:Earl Andrew#January 2025. Legend of 14 (talk) 16:06, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

How on earth are those edits in any conceivable way contentious? -- Earl Andrew - talk 16:07, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

I'll bite. How is the parenthetical (Ottawa would eventually get a light rail tunnel in 2019.) in any way relevant to this guy's bio? The last time he ran for office was in 1991. If a reliable source has pointed out that such a clear and decisive rebuke to Kent's ideology occurred 28 years later, that should be sourced. Woodroar (talk) 17:53, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

While it has nothing to do with Kent himself, I do think giving readers some context on that issue is relevant.-- Earl Andrew - talk 18:12, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

But it's not up to you or me to decide that. We need to let reliable, secondary sources decide that it's DUE to mention it in Kent's article. Woodroar (talk) 18:36, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

I've removed the sentence from the article, including a source that doesn't even mention the subject. Woodroar (talk) 19:10, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Allan Higdon

Allan Higdon (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

User:Earl Andrew keeps adding uncited content to the article including content about immigration status and employment by organzations who make controversial decisions:

• https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Allan_Higdon&diff=prev&oldid=1269810502
• https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Darrel_Kent&diff=prev&oldid=1269810226

There is a notice on his talk page, see User talk:Earl Andrew#January 2025. Legend of 14 (talk) 16:06, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

I will find sources for that article in time. I reverted your edits to this article as you have been going around removing information from articles in bad faith, citing that you are removing contentious information, when in fact you are not. Most of what you are doing is removing non contentious information only because it lacks proper sourcing. Instead of going around and being a destructive force, why not try and improve articles by finding sources? -- Earl Andrew - talk 16:11, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

If you want to succeed in adding information to articles, do it with a source. Don't be surprised if people aren't willing to take your additions on faith. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 16:55, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

"Adding" is doing a lot of heavy lifting here. I simply reverted their edits because I didn't believe they were constructive, based on the user's recent editing history of removing non contentious information from various articles. -- Earl Andrew - talk 17:08, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

WP:BURDEN is clear that, whether you're adding or restoring content, you need to include a source. Woodroar (talk) 17:24, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

I understand. I am just concerned about this particular user's decision to quickly remove non contentious content from several articles. They are within their rights via WP:BURDEN, but it's not typical user behaviour (from my experience), which is why I believe we should exercise some caution. Especially considering they removed information that was sourced, albeit not with inline citations (of course, within their rights via WP:BURDEN, but I mean, feels very bad-faithy to me, no?) -- Earl Andrew - talk 18:15, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Would placing a citation tag, been a better option? GoodDay (talk) 18:19, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Yes, this is usually the best way of handling uncited, non contentious claims. Or at least, the most common way.-- Earl Andrew - talk 18:24, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

No because in my opinion, these claims are contentious and they're about a living person, so under WP:BOLP they must be removed immediately. Legend of 14 (talk) 18:31, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

How are they contentious, especially when everything is sourced (though, not with an inline citation) with the reference at the bottom? Why actively destroy an article, when you can make things better by adding inline citations? You can cite policy until the cows come home, but your actions are quite unusual, and are certainly raising suspicions, from me at least.-- Earl Andrew - talk 18:45, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Working for people who make controversial decisions is a contentious claim like tribunals and government departments. Information about immigration status is contentious, especially with the recent controversy around wage suppression https://www.newcanadianmedia.ca/temporary-immigration-programs-are-pushing-down-wage-growth-in-canada-economists-say/ and the article's specific claims about him working for the PC party while which seemingly conflicts with their principal of training Canadian workers to do Canadian jobs https://www.poltext.org/sites/poltext.org/files/plateformesV2/Canada/CAN_PL_1984_PC_en.pdf. Legend of 14 (talk) 18:58, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Whatever you want to call it, birth place is definitely not something which should be in the article without a source. Feel free to add such information back when you find a reliable secondary source but it stays out until you have. Nil Einne (talk) 01:05, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

I already put an inline citation (it was already sourced, just not properly)-- Earl Andrew - talk 01:56, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Ali Khademhosseini

I have been trying to add a new section about the scientific concerns raised by Elizabeth Bik and another data sleuth against a very large number of articles by Ali Khademhosseini, and this research's subsequent responses.

A new user was created immediately after (Special:Contributions/EvandorX) and has started a series of long edits to the page, including some reverting of my own edits. While some of these edits appear reasonable, others are not (e.g. reverting ‘citation needed’ tags or introducing typos in headings). I would appreciate another pair of eyes on the page (I sent a request for page protection too). I haven't been active on WP for at least a decade and I'm a bit rusty with the policies, but I'm not convinced that the page meets NPOV. 81.109.86.251 (talk) 21:54, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Călin Georgescu

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Now are we WP:CENSORing The Atlantic? tgeorgescu (talk) 02:49, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Misogynistic explanation at . tgeorgescu (talk) 02:54, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

An opinion piece is usually not worth everlasting biographical WP:WEIGHT. And it's accurate to describe its author as one woman. I would have said one person. The fact that it's an opinion is the WP:BLP concern. If you feel someone is being misogynistic, WP:ANI is your forum. BLPN isn't generally for editor behavior problems. Cheers. JFHJr (㊟) 03:29, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

It doesn't look like anyone did anything to The Atlantic. It looks like someone edited Misplaced Pages, doubting that this one opinion piece was worthy of inclusion. That sort of discussion seems appropriate to the article talk page; even though it's in a BLP, it's not a BLP issue per se. Looks like you added it, someone else reverted the addition, and that's a good time to get into the WP:BRD cycle. -- Nat Gertler (talk) 04:04, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

JD Vance & Jon Husted

Ohio governor Mike DeWine hasn't announced his pick (yet) for the US Senate. Yet already, IPs are jumping the gun & attempting to update JD Vance & Jon Husted, as though Husted were picked. GoodDay (talk) 16:45, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

PS - I've given up, trying to hold back the premature updates. GoodDay (talk) 17:18, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Deb Matthews

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Deb Matthews (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

This article contains various uncited election results. Elections are contentious topics. Thousands of people go to the polls to decide who should represent them. Many people did not get their way.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Deb_Matthews&oldid=1269868441 and User talk:Adam Bishop#Deb Matthews. Legend of 14 (talk) 16:52, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

These results don't appear to be contentious, though. There are citations at the linked articles about the elections themselves. Have you considered copying those citations over rather than deleting the results? MrOllie (talk) 17:13, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

No, I'm not touching that page, because I've been reverted by an admin. Legend of 14 (talk) 17:17, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Ministry of Education (Ontario)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Ministry of Education (Ontario) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

The article charges with being Minister of Education, without citation. In accordance with the principal of Ministerial responsibility, this is a very serious charge. A Minister is responsible for all actions that go on in their Ministry. Legend of 14 (talk) 16:52, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Also see https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Ministry_of_Education_(Ontario)&oldid=1269877806. Legend of 14 (talk) 16:53, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

@Legend of 14: Are there any BLP claims in this diff that can't be sourced by copying a source from the person's article or doing a quick Google search? If nothing else, it seems that would take up less time in the long run than removing, discussing on talk, and then discussing here. -- Tamzin (they|xe|🤷) 17:04, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

There is an uncited table with over 14 living people. It isn't practical to quickly find a source for every one of them. I only posted here because my talk page discussion was removed by an administrator. Legend of 14 (talk) 17:09, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

We don't have a deadline here, it is not needed to 'quickly' find a source. MrOllie (talk) 17:11, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

The content should be removed immediately under WP:BLP, because it is uncited and contentious. There actually isn't time to find a source. Legend of 14 (talk) 17:15, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Why is it contentious? Do you have some reason to believe these people were not in fact Ministers? We're trying to build an encyclopedia here, not robotically delete uncontentious, easily sourced material. MrOllie (talk) 17:16, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Most of the people were probably Ministers of Education. Are the dates right though? Sometimes people can confuse the date of announcement or election with the date of appointment. If it so easy to source, why don't you source the content. I'm not touching the article, I've been reverted by an administrator who wants me blocked. Legend of 14 (talk) 17:22, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

'Sometimes people can confuse the date' does not equal contentious - we're not claiming somebody committed a crime. MrOllie (talk) 17:25, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

It just a claim that people responsible for the actions of dozens of people access decades. These are serious claims. Legend of 14 (talk) 17:31, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Serious perhaps, but not contentious in the manner envisioned by WP:BLP, so there is no rush to delete this noncontroversial information. Please do not blank anything like this again, from this or from other articles. MrOllie (talk) 17:45, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

If researched, maybe. But how about checking the sources (like Tamzin said) for yourself? Or perhaps, as a gesture of good will, a send-back to the pit of fire. 2601AC47 (talk·contribs·my rights) Isn't a IP anon 17:25, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

You mean reverted. With good reason (I'm sure that you've paid attention), and you should kind of clearly understand by now that there are ways to constructively do so. 2601AC47 (talk·contribs·my rights) Isn't a IP anon 17:13, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

I used the article talk page. See above. Legend of 14 (talk) 17:14, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

That sounds like something that would take roughly 14 minutes—less if you find an RS that lists multiple or all of them. Look, I like removing unsourced BLP content as much as the next BLP/N-watcher, but there's a common-sense limit, and I think you've surpassed it. Just find the damn sources. -- Tamzin (they|xe|🤷) 17:25, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Not my WP:BURDEN. I wasn't aware of the clause in the WP:BLP that says contentious material must be removed immediately, unless you've already removed a lot of BLP material recently. Legend of 14 (talk) 17:30, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Correction: *BLP violating material. Legend of 14 (talk) 17:33, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

@Legend of 14: I don't mean limit on quantity. I mean limit on scope. You're taking an extremely broad definition of "contentious" and then making zero effort to find sources even when they exist in linked articles. This is not a pattern of editing that improves the encyclopedia, and Misplaced Pages is not a court of law where "but technically..." works. Stop it. -- Tamzin (they|xe|🤷) 17:43, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Any advice about article editing practices directed towards me is moot because I'm done editing articles. But, thanks for trying to help me anyway. Legend of 14 (talk) 17:56, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Right. Is that all you got? Is that what you said when your world went to crap?

It's still on you, especially if these sources have never been contested. 2601AC47 (talk·contribs·my rights) Isn't a IP anon 17:57, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

I'm struggling to understand the logic here but I'm going to take a shot: @Legend of 14 is your argument that, without citations that clearly indicate which minister was responsible for the ministry at any given time, Misplaced Pages might accidently assert that one minister was responsible for the actions of another minister's administration? Because that seems pretty inside baseball. It's deeply unlikely that anyone outside of, like, a provincial archivist is going to be so sensitive that you can't take the time to validate the dates against plentiful reliable sources. Simonm223 (talk) 17:59, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Kinga Surma was accused of being responsible for things that happened before she became a Minister: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s75dKt5FDwc. I don't think Misplaced Pages was the source of the bad date, but this shows that a high level of care should be taken with regards to dates of appointments and that information about Cabinet appointments should be treated as contentious. Legend of 14 (talk) 18:13, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

A YT video's not a reliable source. 2601AC47 (talk·contribs·my rights) Isn't a IP anon 18:15, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

I don't think that's the point of the YT link. Which, for the record, is actually a recording of the Legislature of Ontario question period for December 5, 2024. I think their point is that an MPP accused Surma, during question period, of being responsible for things that happened during her predecessor's ministry. The concern is reasonably legitimate. However the urgency is not evident. Just find sources and make sure the dates are right. Simonm223 (talk) 18:21, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Also, just to note, the Kinga Surma situation involves the Ministry of Infrastructure rather than Education. Simonm223 (talk) 18:23, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

The urgency is based on WP:BLP. The content should not be present, as it is contentious, unless and until it is sourced. Legend of 14 (talk) 18:25, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

So find sources. These are routine details and while being accurate is a good thing here - not least of all to prevent some well-meaning NDP or Liberal MPP from accusing Jill Dunlop of making a decision actually made by Todd Smith - there isn't even really any reputational risk here for the BLPs in question - especially as we are currently four education ministers deep into this administration. It might take you half an hour to find all the necessary references - you've probably spent as long defending your decision to delete them. Simonm223 (talk) 18:30, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Something being "routine" has no effect on if or not it needs to be sourced to stay in. Legend of 14 (talk) 18:34, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

It absolutely does. This is the root of your misinterpretation of WP:BLP. Many things are not 'contentious' and do not need to be immediately deleted without discussion. MrOllie (talk) 18:37, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Certainly not one that involves questions asked by some MP conservatives over something allegedly controversial. 2601AC47 (talk·contribs·my rights) Isn't a IP anon 18:19, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Laurel Broten

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Laurel Broten (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

The article has various uncited election results. See #Deb Matthews for why this a problem. Legend of 14 (talk) 16:56, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Eric Hoskins

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Eric Hoskins (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

This article has uncited results about the 2008 Canadian Federal Election which involves living people. Elections are contentious topics. Many people voted for someone who didn't get elected. Legend of 14 (talk) 17:00, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

You may wanna try to be bold and try talking to others on either of these articles before you put them here. One too many. 2601AC47 (talk·contribs·my rights) Isn't a IP anon 17:04, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

What's the point if they're just going to get deleted by an administrator, see https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Ministry_of_Education_(Ontario)&diff=next&oldid=1269877806 https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Deb_Matthews&diff=prev&oldid=1270038770. Legend of 14 (talk) 17:06, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Jim Watson (Canadian politician)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The article has various uncited election results. See #Deb Matthews for why this a problem. Legend of 14 (talk) 17:03, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

John Gerretsen

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The article has various uncited election results. See #Deb Matthews for why this a problem. Legend of 14 (talk) 17:04, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Please stop filling the noticeboard with these redundant sections. MrOllie (talk) 17:09, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Imran Khan

There is a content dispute at DRN which is about a biography of a living person, Imran Khan, a Pakistani politician. The dispute is at Misplaced Pages:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard#Imran_Khan. The question involves allegations made by his ex-wife, Reham Khan in a memoir, Reham Khan (memoir). The book itself is a primary source, and secondary sources are preferred in biographies of living persons, and secondary sources have discussed the allegations. So the question is whether the inclusion of the allegations in the article would violate the biographies of living persons policy by being tabloid-like. I am bringing this issue here because I think that the volunteers at this noticeboard are familiar with similar issues. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:50, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

Of course it is a clear violation. A primary source is still primary no matter how notable the primary source is. The more adverse/contentious the claim, the more that's true. The DRN discussion is such a dense wall of timesink that I can't begin to want to participate there. But it is a clear violation. Cheers. JFHJr (㊟) 05:07, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

I agree with JFHJr. I'd also add that WP:PUBLICFIGURE requires multiple third party sources covering an allegation. A quick glance at the DRN discussion listed five sources that the editor considered secondary in support of the allegation and (from what I could tell) the references didn't seem reliable.

DNAIndia article is attributed to 'DNA Web Team', Deccan Chronicle is attributed to 'DC Correspondent', and Hindustan Times is attributed to 'HT Correspondent. TheNews is attributed to 'Web Desk'. And lastly the Mumbai Mirror is an interview so definitely not secondary. Several of the articles seem more promotional than anything, and aren't independently reporting on anything; they are stating what she says in her book. The original WP:GRAPEVINE removal that sparked the DRN discussion seems more than justified.

Awshort (talk) 07:08, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

@Awshort @JFHJr What about the following? The discussion in secondary sources suggests that this topic warrants some coverage in the article. While we can include differing perspectives, such as Imran Khan’s stance on the allegations, a complete exclusion seems unwarranted. It's all about Imran Khan then why exclude it. NPOV requires representing all viewpoints, and we can ensure fair coverage by including all angles rather than outright exclusion. The original content was attributed to Reham Khan, and no one is suggesting treating these claims as facts. However, they are allegations made by a notable individual with a personal connection to the subject. These can be presented as attributed allegations, alongside other relevant perspectives, such as lawsuits or differing narratives.

• Imran Khan’s Ex-Wife Reham Khan Wins Defamation Case In UK High Court, NDTV
• Tell-all memoir ‘risks derailing’ Imran Khan election hopes, The Guardian
• Imran Khan: why a tell-all memoir is causing uproar in Pakistan, The Week

Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 16:09, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

The included sources don't mention the allegations about his children. I don't think who is making an allegation, nor how close they are to a subject, is what is important - I think it's what secondary sources do independant verification or investigations regarding the claims that matter. WP:NEWSORGINDIA seems relevant due to the quality of sources that mention this.

I also removed text from Reham Khan (memoir) which seemed to focus on every negative thing regarding Imran Khan mentioned in the book that was also only supported by questionable sources. Drug use, same sex relationships which named other third party people, illegitimate children...I would consider this the epitome of gossip that needs high quality sourcing.

Awshort (talk) 23:12, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

@Robert McClenon For me @Awshort's feedback is good enough, I accept this as consensus for removal, we will keep those allegations out of that article, you can close the DRN thread. Thank you, @JFHJr and @Awshort for their help for sorting this out. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 23:57, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

Comment: @Awshort @JFHJr While a discussion is opened at this noticeboard about this BLP, I have concerns over the Imran Khan#Controversies section which User:SheriffIsInTown has been told not to create per WP:CSECTION in the past, but has created nevertheless. I have proposed it to be merged into the rest of the article in the past and given due weight, which multiple editors have supported but they have opposed it. Not sure if a separate thread is required for this issue if a thread about this BLP is already opened. Additionally, some of the allegations in the controversies section are supported by only one source and did not receive significant media coverage such as Imran Khan#Misogynistic remarks, the amount of weight being given to them is too much and the whole section seems to be astray from NPOV. Thank you. Titan2456 (talk) 20:56, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

There are 47,556 articles on Misplaced Pages with a “Controversies” section, including one for another former Prime Minister of Pakistan, Nawaz Sharif#Controversies, which user @Titan2456 significantly expanded. They seem to object to a “Controversies” section for Imran Khan, due to their declared support for him and his party, but showed no such concerns while editing Nawaz Sharif. This demonstrates the kind of POV pushing in their editing that I’ve been highlighting for some time. Their claim that misogynistic remarks by Imran Khan are covered by only one source is false; even a simple Google search disproves it. One source being included in the article does not imply a lack of support from others. Here are four sources that corroborate it:

• Dawn
• Tribune India
• Times of India
• ANI News

Do we need more? Because there are plenty. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 23:40, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

• According to my understanding, memoirs reflect personal memories and interpretations, and the book publisher cannot fact-check or ensure the content's accuracy. Therefore, one cannot claim that the book is reliable simply because an Indian version of HarperCollins published it. I agree that secondary sources have covered it; however, they are merely quoting what is written in the book. That being said, I have no issue including allegations where she was an eyewitness to events (for example, claims that she saw Imran Khan taking drugs). However, her allegation regarding extramarital childs with Indian partners is very contentious, as she stated that she heard this from Imran Khan. Imran Khan denies the claim, and there is no way she could have been an eyewitness to it. In the last six years, no child or mother has come forward to confirm or refute this claim, so we can safely assume it is false. Furthermore, it is a textbook case of hearsay and does not belong on Misplaced Pages, especially in biographies of living people. Veldsenk (talk) 22:27, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

  @Veldsenk What is your opinion on including Reham’s allegations under the Controversies section instead of the Public Image section, where they were previously covered before you removed them? Also, How about simply including Reham’s claim that Imran Khan acknowledged Tyrian as his daughter? Tyrian is mentioned in many sources, so we only need to state that his former wife, Reham, alleged he admitted in a private conversation that Tyrian is his daughter. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 23:46, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

Talk:Raegan_Revord#They/Them_Pronouns

If you have an opinion, please join. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 14:45, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

Palesa Moroenyane

Palesa Moroenyane Political Activism

• Joined the African National Congress in 1998.

• A product of the Walter Sisulu Leadership Academy 2011.

• A volunteer of the ANCWL Greater Joburg Regional Office from 2009 - 2012.

• A Convener of the ANCWL in 2010 for Ward 28 Moses Kotane branch Ward 28 Greater Joburg Region.

• ⁠The Chairperson of the ANCWL 2011-2013 Moses Kotane Branch Ward 28 Greater Joburg Region.

• Secretary of the ANCWL of Ward 31 Jongilanga Mzinyathi branch 2013-2016.

• Relocated to Ward 125 Eric Molobi branch and was elected the Secretary of the ANCWL from 2017-2022.

• In 2021 - 2023 served as the Deputy Chairperson of the ANC in Eric Molobi Branch Ward 125 Greater Joburg Region.

• Member of the SACP 2010 to date 2023.

• 2019 National Elections was number 65 candidate of the ANC for the Gauteng Member of Provincial Legislature List .

• Joined Umkhonto WeSizwe on the 17 December 2023. She was then appointed as the Ward Coordinator with immediate effect. The position she held until the 19 March 2024.

• Appointed by the Secretary General of MK Party, Advocate Tshivhase Mashudu as the National Election Coordinator for the 2024 National and Provincial Elections.

• Umkhonto WeSizwe Candidate number 10 for the Gauteng Representative List.

156.155.168.84 (talk) 13:17, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

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