Revision as of 19:23, 26 March 2015 editQuackGuru (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users79,978 edits →Ernst's review of reviews: Like I said, the dispute was over a long time ago.← Previous edit | Latest revision as of 17:56, 13 January 2025 edit undoMrOllie (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers238,210 edits Restored revision 1268192201 by MjolnirPants (talk): Empty requestTags: Twinkle Undo | ||
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== Semi-protected edit request on 24 September 2024 == | |||
== Effectiveness a little out of hand == | |||
I understand why the effectiveness section has gotten the way it has but maybe now is a good time to try and get it a little under control. I recommend we start small and go for some obvious deadweight. Can anyone defend the "Fertility and childbirth" section as being encyclopedic? As far as I can tell from reading it we have poor evidence for not much of anything with some rebutted evidence of not much with a little evidence of something not really looked at. Is there anything salvageable there or should it just be let go? ] (]) 05:53, 21 March 2015 (UTC) | |||
:I suggest gutting the entire section: see my discussion above at ].—](]) 05:56, 21 March 2015 (UTC) | |||
::I don't disagree I just think the push back would stop any improvement. I was hoping to start with entries that are cruft and then try and summarize the more controversial evidence sections. ] (]) 07:01, 21 March 2015 (UTC) | |||
:We typical don't delete relevant ] reviews. If there is no significant benefit and the section is short it can go in the other conditions. See ]. ] (]) 06:32, 21 March 2015 (UTC) | |||
::But how relevant are they if they are not imparting any knowledge? I respect the work that went into the findings but don't they taken as an aggregate come to pretty much the conclusion that there is not much evidence for much at all as it pertains to fertility and childbirth? It reads to me that these reviews go into a rather long list of good work that could be used in a more general summery of the lack of evidence for acupuncture. Until then they are not much different that the exceeding long list in the "other conditions" section and could be added there in the interim with the refs kept. ] (]) 07:03, 21 March 2015 (UTC) | |||
:::If the section is short like ] and there is "no strong evidence of benefit" then it can be merged into ]. If the section is not short then I don't know how you could merge it without losing a lot of information. I would start by merging short sections with no benefit. ] (]) 07:14, 21 March 2015 (UTC) | |||
::::This is something I noticed earlier as well. The majority of the Effectiveness section reads like a series of lists, despite nominally being written in prose. Having so many single-paragraph sections is also poor style. Since we have a lot of high-quality sources, we can use editorial judgement to choose a subset of them instead of reporting them all. If any of the content might be useful, it can be split off into a sub-article (which could be a list, but doesn't have to be). ''''']''''' ''<font size="1.8">(])</font>'' 10:29, 21 March 2015 (UTC) | |||
:::::The sections concerned in this discussion imho, appear to be populated in the main by reviews of acupuncture for various conditions. The conclusions have been cherry picked by advocates of acupuncture to suggest efficacy, rather than random statistical events that are normal when a large number of studies are trying to find an effect where none exists. It makes the article look pathetic, and suggests that there may be a remote possibility of efficacy where no possibility of efficacy exists. We don't do this sort of thing in articles about ''real'' medicine, why should we do it for this quackery? -] (]) 12:40, 21 March 2015 (UTC) | |||
I remain in favor of gutting the section and replacing it with "''The physiological benefits of acupuncture are non-existent or small. Most, if not all, of the benefits are derived from the placebo effect, where ineffective treatments appear to have an impact because the patient believes it will have an impact''", citing it to Ernst and Vickers, and being done with it. Trying to do it piecemeal runs the risk of imbalancing this article further: there are so ''many'' of these attempts to validate acupuncture that come up with such a variety of extremely small results that I don't know how one would choose which ones to drop. That's the foundation of QG's argument, and I know how he got there: too many acupuncture advocates argued to remove the studies that found acupuncture was ineffective and retain all that show some small effect, so the only defense became to keep all studies that met certain criteria of reliability. The result is this: a giant laundry list that serves no purpose other than confusing and bewildering the reader.—](]) 13:22, 21 March 2015 (UTC) | |||
I merged the short sections that shows little benefit. The other relevant and longer sections contain high-quality sources such as Cochrane reviews, systematic review of systematic reviews, systematic reviews, and reviews. ] (]) 18:50, 21 March 2015 (UTC) | |||
: I agree that the section as-is basically boils down to a list of the conditions for which there is weak positive evidence consistent with Ioannidis' prediction for a null treatment. We should restrict this to conditions foir which there is unambiguous evidence of effect, assuming that any such actually exist. <b>]</b> <small>(])</small> 00:23, 22 March 2015 (UTC) | |||
See ]. ''The Osteoarthritis Research Society International released a set of consensus recommendations in 2008 which concluded that acupuncture may be useful for treating the symptoms of osteoarthritis of the knee. A separate guideline issued by the National Clinical Guideline Centre stated that acupuncture should not be used in osteoarthritis management..'' | |||
See ]. ''A 2015 clinical practice guideline released by the American Academy of Otolaryngology – Head and Neck Surgery stated that clinicians may offer acupuncture as a treatment for allergic rhinitis to patients interested in non-pharmacologic treatments. The confidence in the evidence of effectiveness of acupuncture for this condition was low.'' | |||
Maybe we can trim some of the sections. There are over 300 sources (194,968 bytes currently) in this article. This suggests there might be bloat. Do editors want to delete the above? ] (]) 03:20, 22 March 2015 (UTC) | |||
:I agree that the edits so far are an improvement. My thought is that as a first approximation, I would propose keeping all the content, but moving it to a sub-article (say, ]), and what remains here could just be a summary, probably the introductory paragraphs of the current section plus a few more paragraphs. That might be going too far in the other direction, but I think it would be an improvement, and we could add back parts as necessary afterward. There does need to be some objective standard, so one possibility is to only use MEDRS that analyze the literature on acupuncture as a whole. So information on individual conditions could still be included, but only if it is sourced to reviews that discuss it in the broader context of the entire field, giving us some idea of how much weight it should be accorded. ''''']''''' ''<font size="1.8">(])</font>'' 03:44, 22 March 2015 (UTC) | |||
::I 'd rather avoid a subpage that will likely turn into a lengthy article with even more sources. ] (]) 03:53, 22 March 2015 (UTC) | |||
:::Another subpage would also provide another opportunity for advocates of Acu and other ALT-MED proponents to influence wikipedia their way. No. Too messy. -] (]) 11:35, 22 March 2015 (UTC) | |||
::::Since there are a lot of reliable sources we can trim some that are not needed such as older ones. ] (]) 20:34, 22 March 2015 (UTC) | |||
== connected contrubutor tag == | |||
please note ] ] (]) 20:32, 22 March 2015 (UTC) | |||
==government regulation== | |||
The US regulation section will need to be updated on both this site and the linked site ] | |||
According to http://mx.nccaom.org/StateLicensing.aspx which has links to all the relevant state government pages except a few where it's banned, 22 states require its certification (which there is a link to educational requirement of on the page) to practice acupuncture, 6 states ban acupuncture entirely. I did a quick read through of the remaining 23 states. They all require state acupuncturist licences, and mention either one or more of the following: state exam, accreditation by the nccaom or acaom, degrees in tcm or acupuncture, often with specified required amounts of science and practical education. An important point which should be made in the acupuncture wiki page is if you are in the US and you see someone who is practising acupuncture without a state acupuncturist license, they are breaking the law and probably don't have adequate education to be safely or effectively sticking needles into people or ensuring proper hygiene while doing so. | |||
Also, the Australian regulation section needs to be updated here as it has been on ]. Acupuncture and TCM are both now federally regulated. ] (]) 08:29, 23 March 2015 (UTC) | |||
{{edit semi-protected|Acupuncture|answered=yes}} | |||
=="Acupuncture is a type of pseudoscience"== | |||
I would like to make some suggestions to the acupuncture page. I do understand it is a contentious topic but believe some added edits and updated references would add better context as the WHO among others is expanding the use of traditonal medicine practices and has added a specific chapter in ICD11 for Traditional Medicine Acupuncture titled TM1 | |||
This statement is so non-NPOV it's almost laughable; it needs to be attributed and not said in WP's voice because the reference used for the assertion doesn't meet ]. Additionally, acupuncture is used in mainstream medical settings, and -- common sense -- the doctors and scientists who use it wouldn't call it outright, unqualified pseudoscience. I went to far as to add Wang 2013 (a good source, cf. ]) in which the authors note that many scientists call acupuncture "pseudoscience" and disagree with that characterization. My NPOV rewording was reverted by QuackGuru with no explanation and a misleading ES that simply said "c/e". QuackGuru also used Wang 2013 misleadingly, citing only the "many scientists consider it pseudoscience" part and omitting the author's own disagreement! What the fuck? Is this some kind of game? Whatever you think about acupuncture, we have an editor tendentiously and misleadingly using a source and disguising a revert with a bland ES. This isn't how a serious encyclopedia should be written. --] <small>(] • ])</small> 05:41, 24 March 2015 (UTC) | |||
{{collapse top|collapse long requested changeset}} | |||
:The reference does not need to meet ] for this claim. It is irrelevant if acupuncture is used in mainstream medical settings. Please provide verification for the disagreement. ] (]) 05:51, 24 March 2015 (UTC) | |||
'''Change X''' - the theories and practices of TCM are not based on scientific knowledge, and it has been characterized as quackery.] | |||
::{{U|QuackGuru}}: Needless to say, per NPOV, we don't speak in WP's voice when significant views disagree. Which does, in the 2nd paragraph; the intent is plain. And yes, acu's use in mainstream medical settings is a fact that weighs in how we depict its reception. --] <small>(] • ])</small> 09:49, 24 March 2015 (UTC) | |||
:::My reading of the second paragraph is that the authors recognize that the scientific community views acupuncture as pseudoscience and that the authors believe that is unhelpful due to acupuncture having evidence of efficacy. I don't see them arguing that acupuncture isn't based on pseudoscience just that efficacy is the more important demarcation. If even acupuncture proponents recognize the pseudoscience consensus isn't that notable? ] (]) 17:52, 24 March 2015 (UTC) | |||
::::''(added after much of below thread but not really bearing upon it)'' @24.4.204.245: (a) Many sources say pseudoscience-demarcation depends on efficacy, e.g. Shermer (in Pigliucci; recent book chapter). (b) in context, no, Wang isn't saying that. --] <small>(] • ])</small> 23:21, 24 March 2015 (UTC) | |||
:I do agree with the statement as it is in the article and other sources...but do agree the article lacks any objective POV. The fact all the sources are so old makes the article look very dated.-- ] (]) 06:41, 24 March 2015 (UTC) | |||
::Actually, {{U|Moxy}}, most of the MEDRS's are within the 5-year rule-of-thumb freshness date, and much of the rest are concerned with history and don't need to be recent. --] <small>(] • ])</small> 09:49, 24 March 2015 (UTC) | |||
:That something is "mainstream" does not automatically remove it from the realm of pseudoscience. That someone is employed at Harvard is not a guarantee against quackery. ] (]) 07:04, 24 March 2015 (UTC) | |||
::{{U|Jim1138}}: We're talking about the ''scientific and medical mainstream'', which we follow, and that community is not uniform in its ] of acupuncture as pseudoscience/quackery. That Colquhoun & Novella editorial you just linked to is a good RS and they say acu is pseudoscience, so we say that and cite it. Wang 13, the source I added, is also good RS -- in fact it's the companion editorial to Colquhoun & Novella; ''Anesthesia & Analgesia'' invited both pro and con pieces -- and they dispute acu's characterization as pseudoscience and quackery, so we say and cite that too. . () --] <small>(] • ])</small> 09:49, 24 March 2015 (UTC) | |||
:::I agree that it's a violation of NPOV to include an unattributed assertion of pseudoscience in the article and omit the contrary view. These are companion editorials, pro and con. This article only cites these sources for the con -- a blatant violation. ] (]) 10:26, 24 March 2015 (UTC) | |||
::::@TimidGuy NPOV does not say we must balance the pro and can for each claim. In fact, that would be ]. Neutrality on wikipedia means presenting the arguments in proportion to their prominence in the relevant community (in this case, the scientific and mainstream med community), and within that community, there is no significant controversy that acupuncture is pseudoscience. Per ], we must state that unequivocally. — ]<span style="margin:0 7px;font-variant:small-caps;font-size:0.9em">· ]]</span> 11:36, 24 March 2015 (UTC) | |||
:::::Mann Jess, the statement that there is "no significant controversy that acupuncture is pseudoscience" needs a very reliable source to back it up, given the large number of studies of acupuncture in peer-reviewed journals. Do you have such a source? ] ] 13:06, 24 March 2015 (UTC) | |||
::::::I haven't seen such a source; it would have to meet ]. ], journals don't invite pro/con editorials in areas where most of their readers have already made up their minds. --] <small>(] • ])</small> 16:40, 24 March 2015 (UTC) | |||
{{od}} | |||
* ] is being misrepresented here. It applies to "any statement in Misplaced Pages that academic consensus exists". Since we are not making a statement about "academic consensus" it does not apply. The pseudoscience statement is sourced to a strong ]/] (Baran ''et al.'') that may be simply asserted. There are many such topics where the question of "academic consensus" simply isn't in the sources. We don't need ] to say that ] wasn't visited by aliens, that ] doesn't work or that ] is pseudoscience. We would only need it in ths ''specific case'' where we wish to invoke "academic consensus", as the policy makes clear. | |||
* The Wang editorial comment seems to me to be misrepresnted too. I don't see Wang saying that acupuncture is not pseudoscience; Wang's line of argument instead is that "it works" (or at least is under investigation). We mustn't ]. | |||
* But why on earth are we using editorial/comment sources anyway? These are at the bottom of the heap when it comes to quality. Baran ''et al.'' is a modern medical textbook (so, good ]/]) specifically addressing the question of what, in healthcare, is science, not science and pseudoscience (aka the demarcation question). It categorizes acupuncture as pseudoscience. We should follow this up-to-date source without complicating the issue with weakly sourced material, especially in the lede. ] <sup>]|]|]</sup> 16:58, 24 March 2015 (UTC) | |||
'''to Y''' – . | |||
* The claim recently added by Middle 8 appears to be . I kindly asked Middle 8 for but so far Middle 8 has refused to . The part "" was unnecessary wording and the part "" appears to be the ] rather than the ]. Middle 8, I will request it again. Please provide (or move on). The source did not specifically question the pseudoscience designation. ]? ] (]) 17:45, 24 March 2015 (UTC) | |||
There is a range of acupuncture technological variants that originated in different philosophies, and techniques vary depending on the country in which it is performed. However, it can be divided into two main foundational philosophical applications and approaches; the first being the modern standardized form called eight principles TCM and the second being an older system that is based on the ancient Daoist wuxing, better known as the five elements or phases in the West. Acupuncture is most often used to attempt pain relief, though acupuncturists say that it can also be used for a wide range of other conditions. Acupuncture is generally used only in combination with other forms of treatment. | |||
The source did question the pseudoscience designation. The entire piece did, as a matter of fact. I've restored some of its spirit, (the WHO) but we should consider adding in other parts as well. ] (]) 17:49, 24 March 2015 (UTC) | |||
The global acupuncture market was worth US$24.55 billion in 2017. The market was led by Europe with a 32.7% share, followed by Asia-Pacific with a 29.4% share and the Americas with a 25.3% share. It was estimated in 2021 that the industry would reach a market size of US$55 billion by 2023. | |||
:I'm sorry, I must be missing it. Could you please quote me the text where the "pseudoscience designation" is questioned in this poor-quality source? some text which includes the word "pseudoscience". ] <sup>]|]|]</sup> 17:51, 24 March 2015 (UTC) | |||
:I disagreeing with restoring the . The details are in the body without the misleading wording. ] (]) 18:07, 24 March 2015 (UTC) | |||
:: | |||
::Alexbrn, I'm not supporting saying specifically that the pseudoscience designation has been questioned, as that could be OR, but the spirit of the piece was just that. Anyway, here's some quotes for you: "Although >40 disorders have been recognized by the World Health Organization as conditions that can benefit from acupuncture treatment.." (Which precedes "many scientists") "4 It seems some-what naive to totally condemn the practice of acupuncture, while accepting orthodox medicine as the basis for treating all medical conditions." and "Overall, acupuncture practice should not be seen as a placebo intervention or merely a needle therapy, but a medical option that not only treats disorders but also fosters a greater awareness of how harmonic interactions between self, family, work, and environment play a role in promoting health and restoring order." To pull an acupuncture equals pseudoscience quote, alone, out of this piece (which attempts to defend acupuncture's validity) is quote mining and we don't want to do that, least not in the lede. ] (]) 18:20, 24 March 2015 (UTC) | |||
'''Change X''' – ] | |||
:::A ] compliant review stated "Perhaps the most obviously over-optimistic overview is the document recently published by the WHO (Table 1). Critics of acupuncture, however, continue to be unimpressed by such evidence and draw far less positive conclusions from the existing evidence : ‘effectiveness could not be established with confidence for any condition studied. Taken as a group, reviews of clinical studies published since 1990 on the clinical efficacy of acupuncture do not support the notion that acupuncture is effective for any variety of conditions and cast doubt on efficacy for some specific conditions for which acupuncture has been reported as effective’." | |||
:::It was also because it was not ''even'' though or recognizes its efficacy. They recognized it ''can'' have a benefit. The WHO mention in the lede is a weight violation because a better source which is a review criticized the WHO report. Please don't use a lower quality source to argue against a review that is used in the body. ] (]) | |||
'''to Y''' – . Acupuncture is generally safe when done by appropriately trained practitioners using clean needle technique and single-use needles. When properly delivered, it has a low rate of mostly minor adverse effects. When accidents and infections do occur, they are associated with neglect on the part of the practitioner, particularly in the application of sterile techniques. A review conducted in 2013 stated that reports of infection transmission increased significantly in the preceding decade. The most frequently reported adverse events were pneumothorax and infections. Since serious adverse events continue to be reported, it is recommended that acupuncturists be trained sufficiently to reduce the risk. | |||
::::{{U|Alexbrn}}, ] is a judgement call, and the moon landing is a fact. Not quite the same, you know? For opinions, NPOV demands that we account for all sig views. If we call something pseudoscience in WP's voice, it must be (cf. ] "generally considered pseudoscience by the scientific community". "Generally considered" invokes ]. No, acupuncture isn't "obvious pseudoscience" in the same way Time Cube is (skeptical polemic notwithstanding), because it has a broad following, cf. its use in mainstream medical settings, where most/all of its proponents ] consider it unqualified pseudoscience. (Meanwhile other academics disagree, and from the blogosphere, call its Ivy League proponents "quackademics": gee, that sure sounds like a real, mainstream debate.) As I said above, acu's use in mainstream medical settings is a fact that weighs in how we depict its reception. And of course Wang disputes the characterization, Wikilawyering readings of that source aside (I knew QuackGuru would ] I didn't answer him). --] <small>(] • ])</small> 19:23, 24 March 2015 (UTC) | |||
:::::Hello my favourite SPA COI ed. Are you saying that sticking sharp thin bits of metal into people cures them, or has real effects other than the victim saying "Hey, I can feel that"? -] (]) 19:38, 24 March 2015 (UTC) | |||
:::::From ]: "Stated simply, any '''statement in Misplaced Pages that academic consensus exists''' on a topic must be sourced" (my bold). Your argument that this is mysteriously "invoked" by anything else is a novelty of interpretation not supported in our ]s. In general, it is not helpful to bend our ]s in pursuit of a position.<p> <p/p> | |||
:::::Homeopathy has a broad following. By your arguments Misplaced Pages wouldn't be characterizing that as pseudoscience either, wouldn't you say?! It is better to stick to ]/] and avoid special pleading for pet subjects. ] <sup>]|]|]</sup> 19:43, 24 March 2015 (UTC) | |||
::::::{{U|Alexbrn}}, nothing mysterious about it; it is WP:FRINGE/PS that invokes generally-held sci opinion. And I think it's apparent that acu is not in the same category than homeopathy. One doesn't see invited pro/con editorials in non-alt-med journals, nor the active degree of research. --] <small>(] • ])</small> 20:29, 24 March 2015 (UTC) | |||
:::::::So (at the risk of getting off-topic), you're saying that our policy in practice is that ] applies for describing acupuncture as pseudoscience, but not for homeopathy? (Add: a few years back ''Integrative Cancer Therapies'' ran "pro" and "con" pieces on homeopathy, and of course homepathy has its own Elsevier-publisher journal.) ] <sup>]|]|]</sup> 20:37, 24 March 2015 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::Of course not Alex, Homeopathy is an entirely different type of magic to Acu. You should know that by now. -] (]) 21:19, 24 March 2015 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::{{U|Roxy the dog}}, please do keep quiet if you have nothing useful to add. --] <small>(] • ])</small> 21:50, 24 March 2015 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::{{U|Alexbrn}} No, PAG for both are (obviously!) the same -- and for homeopathy, we do have at least one sci-consensus level source (The Royal College Of Pathologists , meeting WP:RS/AC) saying (essentially) it's pseudoscience. We don't have such a source for acu. Read WP:FRINGE/PS; it's clear enough. --] <small>(] • ])</small> 21:50, 24 March 2015 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::P.S. If I must unpack WP:FRINGE/PS further: Acu's "following", journals and research are what demarcate it into "questionable" rather than "obvious" pseudoscience. But "following" or not, once you have the sci-consensus source for a topic being PS, it flips into "generally considered". See? Our PAG's (the development and application of which I've followed closely) are internally consistent, and ensure that we follow (MED)RS.--] <small>(] • ])</small> 21:50, 24 March 2015 (UTC) <small>c/e 23:14, 24 March 2015 (UTC)</small> | |||
:::::::::::"Essentially" is OR. There is, as far as I know, no RS that states plainly that there is a scientific consensus that homeopathy is a pseudoscience. This is because there has been a lot of discussion about this at that article (check the archive). However, the article simply says that homeopahy *is* a pseudoscience, and that is well-sourced. Your argument that ] is needed before asserting anything is a pseudoscience is your own fancy, your argument about "following" nothing but special pleading.] <sup>]|]|]</sup> 07:32, 25 March 2015 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::::No, it's based on PAG. Funny to see you disputing a scientific body's criticism of homeopathy as unscientific on a semantic technicality; that was the objection rendered by editors seen as alt-med apologists. We're allowed to use/rely on paraphrasing, and on that basis the source was accepted by consensus; check the archives for "generally considered pseudoscience by the sci community". So yes, homeo ≠ acu, demarcation-wise. You seem unwilling to accept FRINGE/PS's wording at face value, but whatever, we can seek further input. (If we continue this exchange let's do below; threading is getting messy, since Everymorning commented before your comment above and this reply.) --] <small>(] • ])</small> 02:01, 26 March 2015 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::::I don't dispute their criticism, just note that we can't say there is "a scientific consensus" unless the source has exactly those words: that's what ] says. It's extremely rare to find that formulation, even for the most obviously woo topics. Anyway, it seems we have consensus and the article text is sticking so as far as I'm concerned we're done here. ] <sup>]|]|]</sup> 06:17, 26 March 2015 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::::::In the past, RS/AC has also been taken as saying that a sci-consensu source, e.g. from a scientific academy, inherently indicates consensus. But anyway, yes, is in fact consensus, that works for me. --] <small>(] • ])</small> 12:00, 26 March 2015 (UTC) | |||
{{od}} To me, the main difference between homeopathy and acupuncture is the existence of government-level reviews saying that homeopathy is ineffective, whereas no such reports have been published as far as acupuncture is concerned (to my knowledge). Besides that there is a fair amount of research into the possible mechanism of action of acupuncture, while we know that it is physically impossible for homeopathy to work. ] ] 22:20, 24 March 2015 (UTC) | |||
:This whole topic is a bit silly - pejorative terms like pseudoscience are thrown around by pundits, while scientists actually study acupuncture and only make conclusions based on specific questions being asked. Real scientists and doctors don't obsess over this term, they just do their best to find what works. Acupuncture is clearly becoming more mainstream, as evidenced by the journal Science recently publishing a series of articles on the integration of TCM with biomedicine . We're just arguing about name-calling again while the actual world of science and medicine moves on.] (]) 23:01, 24 March 2015 (UTC) | |||
::{{replyto|Herbxue}} but yikes - that supplement is a vanity project (paid-for, not reviewed). Smacks more of desperation if stuff needs to get published ''this'' way. ] <sup>]|]|]</sup> 06:32, 25 March 2015 (UTC) | |||
::Well said, and great find re AAAS/Science pub. Quote: {{tq|From the new WHO Traditional Medicine Strategy to the application of systems biology in studying TCM, we aim to highlight the potential for creating an integrated, network-based health care system.}} That nicely balances the much-discussed ''Nature'' diss of systems biology. Again, an active research area, debated in mainstream sources. --] <small>(] • ])</small> 23:26, 24 March 2015 (UTC) <font color="brown">'''NOTE:'''</font> The preceding comment about balancing ''Nature'' is off-topic for this thread; I'm referring to a different debate about systems biology and ''Nature's'' well-worn "fraught" quote. --] <small>(] • ])</small> 06:24, 25 March 2015 (UTC) | |||
:::The source said ...we aim to highlight the potential... A "potential" is not solid evidence and that source did not address the pseudoscience designation. You did not provide after I repeatedly requested for V. If Wang disputes the pseudoscience characterization then you would have no problem providing V. Otherwise, I think we are done here. ] (]) 02:49, 25 March 2015 (UTC) | |||
::::{{U|QuackGuru}}: (a) You misunderstand; I'm not saying that AAAS/Science source goes directly to demarcation. (b) As for Wang and PS, I indeed , yet you claimed I'd to. Hey - don't '''<font color="crimson">IDHT!</font>''' You may not like or agree with my V/RS but don't pretend I didn't provide it. --] <small>(] • ])</small> 04:51, 25 March 2015 (UTC) | |||
:::::You on the talk to . ] (]) 05:09, 25 March 2015 (UTC) | |||
{{od}} | |||
Okay, so we have a strong ] & ] source, Baran ''et al.'', which flat out categorizes acupuncture as pseudoscience. We have no equivalent countering source. We have policies which tells us we construct neutral articles by accurately reflecting what's in RS. Against this we have invented rules about ] and the ] (by, it must be said, some interested editors here) that acupuncture has enough of a "following" (interesting word) that we just can't use the word "pseudoscience", and that we should be using a "sponsored supplement" (i.e. advertorial) from ''Science Magazine'' for balance.<p> </p> | |||
I would prefer we remove all the weak sources on this and stick with the strong only. ] <sup>]|]|]</sup> 05:57, 25 March 2015 (UTC) | |||
:Shorter Middle 8: "WP:FRINGE requires proof of general sci agreement to call something pseudoscience in WP's voice"; shorter {{U|Alexbrn}}: ''(crickets)''. "Generally considered PS by the sci community" isn't "invented". My to your attempted ''reductio ad absurdum'' is straight from PAG and you offer no rebuttal (other than trying to ignore FRINGE's clear instructions, and a bit of ad hominem). | |||
:Re ''Science'' source, see -- I'm not advocating its use here; my fault for not being clear on that. --] <small>(] • ])</small> 06:56, 25 March 2015 (UTC) | |||
::As I've said follow the sources. We don't need to decide about the demarcation question ourselves because RS does it for us. Baran ''et al.'' considers what is "science", "not science" and "pseudoscience" and places acupuncture in that latter category. Without equivalent countering sources, that's all the "proof" we need; the fact that Middle8 of Misplaced Pages disagrees with it is neither here nor there. Also see the Good (2012) source, which goes to the point that the question of efficacy is orthogonal to the question of pseudoscience: | |||
::*{{cite book |author=Good R |editor=Khine MS |work=Advances in Nature of Science Research: Concepts and Methodologies |url=http://books.google.com/books?id=4uOqSId2IjsC&pg=PA103 |year=2012 |publisher=Springer |isbn=978-94-007-2457-0 |page=103 |title=Chapter 5: Why the Study of Pseudoscience Should Be Included in Nature of Science Studies |quote=Believing in something like chiropractic or acupuncture really can help relieve pain to a small degree but many related claims of medical cures by these pseudosciences are bogus.}}] <sup>]|]|]</sup> 07:05, 25 March 2015 (UTC) | |||
::::Fine, so cite them with attribution wording and that's that. --] <small>(] • ])</small> 02:36, 26 March 2015 (UTC) | |||
:::My question is, how are we going to better reflect the source in question? It seems odd to state acupuncture negatively from the Wang source, when it is a defense of its supposed scientific merits. For parity, how could we add in statements like: "It seems some-what naive to totally condemn the practice of acupuncture, while accepting orthodox medicine as the basis for treating all medical conditions." and "Overall, acupuncture practice should not be seen as a placebo intervention or merely a needle therapy, but a medical option that not only treats disorders but also fosters a greater awareness of how harmonic interactions between self, family, work, and environment play a role in promoting health and restoring order." Middle 8 summarized all of this but it was reverted and claimed to be OR. However, if we more directly quote from the source, it's not OR. My question is how do we do this? ] (]) 13:16, 25 March 2015 (UTC) | |||
::::We should not use that source at all, it's crap compared to Baran/Good. ] <sup>]|]|]</sup> 13:20, 25 March 2015 (UTC) | |||
::::::Strange, {{U|Alexbrn}}, earlier you seemed to think that a was fine in the lede for saying whether acu is pseudoscience. Why the inconsistency? --] <small>(] • ])</small> 02:32, 26 March 2015 (UTC) | |||
:::::Actually, on its merits, that source is inferior. It's nothing more than editorializing without basis. Dr. Wang at least uses research to form his conclusions. And it was peer reviewed, something I don't see in Baran/Good. Published in Anasthesia Analgesia. Exactly how is it crap? Surely not because of its conclusion? ] (]) 13:32, 25 March 2015 (UTC) | |||
::::::Generally, according to ] opinion pieces are near the bottom of the quality heap, and PUBMED classified Wang just as lowly "comment". Worse, ''Anasthesia Analgesia'' is not a serial specializing in the field of philosophy of science (the realm in which questions of pseudoscience is contemplated) - another ]. Baran ''et al.'' is in a well-published (Springer) healthcare textbook (an "ideal" source per MEDRS) and is ''completely'' on-point since it's title is "Pseudoscience, and Not Science: How Do They Differ?". Good too is in a Springer textbook, this time on the nature of science research - so again completely on point: "Why the Study of Pseudoscience Should Be Included in Nature of Science Studies". Wang doesn't even address the question of pseudoscience. ] <sup>]|]|]</sup> 14:00, 25 March 2015 (UTC) | |||
'''Change X''' – and many modern practitioners no longer support the existence of life force energy (qi) or meridians, which was a major part of early belief systems.] | |||
:::::::You made an interesting point. While I would rather we pull from a text that is specifically on acupuncture and not just makes a brief mentioning of it (lumping it in with chiropractic) I do think a Springer text could be a higher quality source. I also found another Springer text that might be even better, which has much excellent stuff, and I particularly like it because it is specific to acupuncture research. "Substantial evidence has suggested that acupuncture can significantly affect various functions, and treat various diseases,especially ones based on neural mechanisms, through needle stimulation.." If others agree, we could remove the current wording, and replace it with that of Baran/Good and do so alongside a sentence like I suggested above. This way we achieve a degree of parity, albeit from two seperate sources. ] (]) 20:39, 25 March 2015 (UTC) | |||
::::::::: Actually, on second thought, Everymorning already fixed it to achieve parity with "borderlands science" which might work just as well. The Springer text I cited might work best in other places. ] (]) 20:52, 25 March 2015 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::What you had proposed is irrelevant to the pseudoscience designation. | |||
::::::::::For effectiveness we already have a similar sentence in the lede that summarises the body. See "An overview of high-quality Cochrane reviews suggested that acupuncture may alleviate some, but not all, kinds of pain. ". ] (]) 20:55, 25 March 2015 (UTC) | |||
'''to Y''' - However, modern research substantiates the effectiveness of Acupuncture. Studies using functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) have shown that acupuncture elicits changes in the brain that correlate with neurological effects. As confirmed by the world-renowned Cleveland Clinic, “Acupuncture affects the limbic and para-limbic networks in the brain and has a deep hemodynamic response, which is influenced by the psychophysical response. Acupuncture also stimulates the nervous system and improves conduction and communication between nerves. This improved functioning of the nervous system stimulates neurotransmitter actions and the release of the body’s natural endorphins and other opioids. For example, serotonin may be released following acupuncture, therefore helping patients feel more relaxed and sustain a sense of well-being that lasts for hours thereafter, if not longer. Research has also shown acupuncture’s ability in relieving myofascial pain by releasing muscular trigger points with ensuing concomitant anti-inflammatory effects.” | |||
== Ernst's review of reviews == | |||
Acupuncture is believed to have originated around 100 BC in China, around the time The Inner Classic of Huang Di (Huangdi Neijing) was published, though some experts suggest it could have been practiced earlier. Over time, conflicting claims and belief systems emerged about the effect of lunar, celestial and earthly cycles, yin and yang energies, and a body's "rhythm" on the effectiveness of treatment. Acupuncture fluctuated in popularity in China due to changes in the country's political leadership and the preferential use of rationalism or scientific medicine. Acupuncture spread first to Korea in the 6th century AD, then to Japan through medical missionaries, and then to Europe, beginning with France. In the 20th century, as it spread to the United States and Western countries, spiritual elements of acupuncture that conflicted with scientific knowledge were sometimes abandoned in favor of simply tapping needles into acupuncture points. | |||
'''Add Y''' – . | |||
is certainly a very reliable source. However, we say multiple times in the article that it found that real acupuncture was no better than sham acupuncture for pain (presumably all kinds of pain). But I couldn't find any statement to this effect in the paper. Could someone point out where in this paper it says that real acupuncture is no better than sham acupuncture, with respect to pain in general? ] ] 14:41, 25 March 2015 (UTC) | |||
:{{cite journal|last1=Ernst|first1=E.|last2=Lee|first2=Myeong Soo|last3=Choi|first3=Tae-Young|title=Acupuncture: Does it alleviate pain and are there serious risks? A review of reviews|journal=Pain|volume=152|issue=4|year=2011|pages=755–764|issn=03043959|doi=10.1016/j.pain.2010.11.004|pmid=21440191|url=http://www.researchgate.net/publication/50866673_Acupuncture_does_it_alleviate_pain_and_are_there_serious_risks_A_review_of_reviews/file/504635268b703595fc.pdf|format=PDF}} | |||
:"...but real acupuncture was no better than sham." Page 762. This is about "reducing pain" in general. ] (]) 18:20, 25 March 2015 (UTC) | |||
::I came across a critique of this study which I think should be added in: and he addresses almost every aspect of Ernst's review of reviews. We have critiques by Novella and others of acupuncture studies throughout the article, yet we don't have one yet for probably the most cited source in the entire article. Where should we put this? ] (]) 20:47, 25 March 2015 (UTC) | |||
:::A lot of reviews are critiqued but they are not MEDRS compliant. Nothing new here. ] (]) 20:49, 25 March 2015 (UTC) | |||
::::Actually, we cite David Gorski critiquing reviews from a blog, Science Based Medicine. A blog like that isn't MEDRS, neither is Quackwatch. But we allow sources like these because they're not making medical claims. A critique of a review doesn't have to be MEDRS, unless it's actually making medical claims. So I don't see why we can't have this source if we're going to allow Science Based medicine to do the same thing. ] (]) 21:00, 25 March 2015 (UTC) | |||
:::::Fringe journal. Falls afoul of ] for starters. ] <sup>]|]|]</sup> 21:06, 25 March 2015 (UTC) | |||
:::::The Acupuncture Today (Huntingt Beach) magazine or whatever is rubbish. ] (]) 21:11, 25 March 2015 (UTC) | |||
::::::WP:FRIND could also be applied to science based medicine or Quackwatch. I don't think you guys can have it both ways. You can't critique only pro-acupuncture studies with the same level of sources as what you're disallowing. Should we remove the critiques from web blogs?] (]) 21:14, 25 March 2015 (UTC) | |||
:::::::Not so, you're falling into the ] trap; SBM and Quackwatch are mainstream sources for fringe subjects and good for us; fringey journals are generally not useful. ] <sup>]|]|]</sup> 21:27, 25 March 2015 (UTC) | |||
::::::::Ah, but a quick google search shows me that on the Acupuncture Today criticism of Ernst. While I disagree with your rationale, by it, I could critique Ernst from Acupuncture Today from SBM, but not directly from Acupuncture Today. So either way, the critique would go in. So how do we proceed fro here? ] (]) 21:49, 25 March 2015 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::"In essence, Morris seems to be arguing that acupuncture is even less safe than Ernst ''et al''. depicted." I don't think this adds much to the page. ] (]) 21:53, 25 March 2015 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::No, and especially not when a poor conclusion about Morris's article was drawn like this. But a statement like "“For data on efficacy, it doesn’t provide information about how the studies were controlled" would add quite a bit. ] (]) 22:05, 25 March 2015 (UTC) | |||
'''Add Y''' – | |||
{{outdent}} {{U|Everymorning}}, {{U|LesVegas}}, {{U|Alexbrn}} et. al. -- in context, one sees that QuackGuru's quote (real = sham) isn't a finding of Ernst's review of reviews, but rather the finding of one particular, high-quality trial which he believes is more accurate. See p.761, ''§4 Discussion'' (1st para suffices), and then 1st para on p.762. --] <small>(] • ])</small> 00:45, 26 March 2015 (UTC) | |||
'''Change X:''' | |||
:Oh, you're right. Now the question is why do we have a primary source so prominently displayed? So you're saying this was discussed before? What was the argument there? If it was only that it was more accurate, that would seem to be a problem.] (]) 02:47, 26 March 2015 (UTC) | |||
[Clinical practice | |||
::"...but real acupuncture was no better than sham." This is a finding from the review. ] (]) 04:58, 26 March 2015 (UTC) | |||
Acupuncture is a form of alternative medicine. It is used most commonly for pain relief, though it is also used to treat a wide range of conditions. Acupuncture is generally only used in combination with other forms of treatment. For example, the American Society of Anesthesiologists states it may be considered in the treatment of nonspecific, noninflammatory low back pain only in conjunction with conventional therapy. ] to | |||
::: {{U|QuackGuru}} - Not in context, per . Don't '''<font color="crimson">IDHT</font>''' please. --] <small>(] • ])</small> 05:43, 26 March 2015 (UTC) | |||
::: {{U|LesVegas}} - Yes, this has been discussed before, with the ] (note that QuackGuru joined it) being to use . But that wording was so awkward that editors kept (in good faith), changing the meaning. Good alternative suggestion: --] <small>(] • ])</small> 05:43, 26 March 2015 (UTC) | |||
::::This ''is'' a quote from the source: "...but real acupuncture was no better than sham." It is in context. ] (]) 05:50, 26 March 2015 (UTC) | |||
'''to Y:''' | |||
Clinical Practice | |||
Acupuncture is a form of alternative medicine. It is used most commonly for pain relief, though it is also used to treat a wide range of conditions. Acupuncture is generally only used in combination with other forms of treatment. For example, the American Society of Anesthesiologists states it may be considered in the treatment of nonspecific, noninflammatory low back pain only in conjunction with conventional therapy. Practitioners who practice Acupuncture are trained and take didactical coursework and clinical practice in their education; and, pass the National Certification Commission for Acupuncture and Oriental Medicine (NCCAOM) board exams, or a state-specific licensing exam in California. The Acupuncture training program includes techniques such as cupping, gua sha tui na, moxibustion, herbal medicine, lifestyle and nutrition based on Traditional Medicine principles. | |||
There is current research supporting that acupuncture has efficacy with pain management being the most well-known application. Conceptually, it is believed to stimulate the body's meridians, or energy-carrying channels, in an attempt to correct imbalances and to restore health. These benefits are thought to be derived from the proximity of acupoints with nerves through intracellular calcium ions. This lesson outlines a brief history of acupuncture and how it may be used to treat various types of physical and emotional pain and specific conditions, including overactive bladder and psoriasis. Acupuncture has been demonstrated to enhance endogenous opiates, such as dynorphin, endorphin, encephalin, and release corticosteroids, relieving pain and enhancing the healing process. Of particular note is that Acupuncture is now incorporated by highly-acclaimed Western Medicine providers as part of a treatment plan for numerous conditions. The world-renowned Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center endorses the newly updated Society of Integrative Oncology’s recommendations for acupuncture for breast cancer patients with joint pain. . Medical institutions such as the Mayo Clinic, National Cancer Institute, City of Hope, and Cleveland Clinic also integrate Acupuncture into their patients care programs. ] (]) 19:39, 24 September 2024 (UTC) | |||
{{collapse bottom}} | |||
:This is a hodgepodge of content ] verbatim from copyrighted sources. It can't be used. ] (]) 20:04, 24 September 2024 (UTC) | |||
::Also, {{tq|Historical records as old as 3,500 years demonstrate the effectiveness of Acupuncture}} is invalid reasoning - ] - not consistent with ], to give just one example. --] (]) 06:45, 25 September 2024 (UTC) | |||
== This article is racist == | |||
{{OD}}Middle 8 was commenting about ] rather than focusing on content regarding same sentences way back in July 2014. See . See ]. Months later, Middle 8 is continuing to argue over the same text. For example, Middle 8 is accusing me of even though I directly to ]. ] (]) 06:59, 26 March 2015 (UTC) | |||
:Who cares about >6 month old drama? I can link to hot stuff others have said too; so what? It has nothing to do with WP:ENC. You should stop trolling, and do as others are doing here, and focus on substance. This is a legit content dispute; it's a flawed consensus -- one that another editor brought up BTW -- and on WP we can and should revisit content to whatever degree necessary till we get it right. Alert editors will note that you're insistently quoting just one part of a sentence, and thus failing to address the issue of context (hence the IDHT). --] <small>(] • ])</small> 11:51, 26 March 2015 (UTC) | |||
It must be changed. ] (]) 22:14, 23 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
::This is really a mess. Ernst did not conclude that real acupuncture was no better than sham (but only alludes to it in a study) yet, not only do we say this in the article multiple times, (misleading the reader) but we also mislead editors here. Recently we had a long debate w/ Kww about this, and he was under the mistaken impression that Ernst concluded this and even wanted to exclude other research that was contrary to Ernst's "statement." Talk about an out of control snowball! How did it even get this way in the first place? And what do we do from here? Should we just delete this altogether? We could state it's an outcome from an RCT but that opens the door to using primary sources in the article, and I highly doubt editors here would like everyone to be doing that. But above all, we can't have primary research being quoted out of context as though it was a conclusion from a review. ] (]) 18:06, 26 March 2015 (UTC) | |||
:Opposing ] such as ] and ] does not make me a racist. Why? {{talk quote| If an Indian, American, British, Nigerian or Brazilian scientist makes an empirical claim about the body, they're expected to prove it, and that proof must be replicable. Why should it be different for Chinese scientists?|WLU}} Quoted by ] (]) 22:16, 23 October 2024 (UTC) | |||
{{OD}}Later in the paragraph Ernst ''et al'' states "Real and sham acupuncture were both more effective in reducing pain than no acupuncture at all, but real acupuncture was no better than sham". The review is not quoting other studies, but is their own drawn conclusion, not referenced to any specific source, but a statement of what they had found in reviewing the current evidence. As editors we have to adhere to follow what reliable ] sources say, not place our own ] interpretations on them. ] (]) 19:22, 26 March 2015 (UTC) | |||
== Edit request on 3 December 2024 == | |||
== Long section == | |||
{{cot|title=perennial complaints of 'bias' have been addressed countless times already}} | |||
It is not “neutral” to immediately dismiss acupuncture as “pseudoscience in the first paragraph and subheading. That is an expression of opinion that fails to take into account years of scientific research on the topic accepted by the US NIH and other major health organizations. I recommend that the current “pseudoscience” sentence be supplanted by a sentence stating “The U.S. National Institutes of Health (NIH) states “there’s evidence that acupuncture may have effects on the nervous system, effects on other body tissues, and nonspecific (placebo) effects. (https://www.nccih.nih.gov/health/acupuncture-effectiveness-and-safety) The current “psuedoscience” sentence can be attributed to critics of the field, e.g., “Critics have dismissed the scientific research on the effects of acupuncture and characterized it as psuedoscience” <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 18:16, 3 December 2024 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
:Have a look at ], and note that essentially nothing published by the ] - a political department set up to boost alternative medicine, which is /not/ under the supervision of the NIH - is a reliable source. ] (]) 18:53, 3 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
The section is a bit long. See ]. Maybe we can . Thoughts? ] (]) 21:31, 25 March 2015 (UTC) | |||
::So cherry-picking articles that prove your point of view is a more objective approach than referring to the US NIH as a reliable source? It would be fair to say that critics of acupuncture ''view'' it as psuedoscience after noting that there is significant scientific research showing a range of benefits, accepted by NIH and the increasing number of insurance companies that provide acupuncture coverage for proven purposes, like pain relief. | |||
:All I care about is that we allow equality in criticism from non-MEDRS sources. We can remove it, and others like it and leave out criticisms of Ernst, or we can allow them all in. I don't care either way, just as long as we're not only criticizing pro-studies from the same level of sources as those we're excluding on the con-study side. Makes no difference which way we go and length isn't as big of an issue here as neutrality. ] (]) 21:41, 25 March 2015 (UTC) | |||
::But it is highly biased to dismiss the entire field in the first sentences rather than providing a more appropriately balanced and nuanced perspective. I thought Misplaced Pages pages were supposed to be, not for people with axes to grind, but instead for the fair presentation of information for readers to make their own judgments. ] (]) 21:42, 8 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
::This discussion is only for the ] section. Not other sections or sources. The section is apparently long. I thought it could be trimmed a bit. ] (]) 21:45, 25 March 2015 (UTC) | |||
:::Again, what you just cited is not 'the US NIH', nor is Acupuncure 'accepted by NIH'. Also, if you're looking for balance, you should know that Misplaced Pages doesn't do that, see ]. ] (]) 22:02, 8 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::I'd remove that, yes. It doesn't belong there; it might belong elsewhere, e.g. an article about the skeptic movement -- there, the issue of its (much) smaller weight relative to the NEJM review wouldn't be as much of a problem. --] <small>(] • ])</small> 12:53, 26 March 2015 (UTC) | |||
::::NCCIH is literally on the NIH website, which is literally part of the HHS website. Not a shocker that the Misplaced Pages page on NCCIH shows the same consistent bias against all alternative medicine approaches demonstrated by this site, regardless of actual research or evidence. But I don’t see how you can deny the reality of a sub-organization being part of its parent organization. | |||
::::It is not “false balance” to refer to actual health research that has been reviewed and validated by major research organizations like NIH, WHO and others. It is a matter of telling the story fairly and accurately. | |||
::::And it’s odd that you all seem to believe that health insurance companies are stupid enough to be increasingly providing coverage for practices that you blithely equate with astrology or Tarot card reading without bothering to review the evidence or let others add it. Sad to see Misplaced Pages promoting biased entries and censorship in this manner. ] (]) 02:36, 9 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::The NCCIH is 'literally' a separate institute which does not answer to the NIH director. That's because it was set up as a personal project by a US Senator who wanted an outfit that would validate the scientifically invalid bee pollen treatments he believed in. You are getting basic facts incorrect here, which is not going to be a basis for changes to this article. Some health insurance companies will cover ], too. That does not mean that homeopathy isn't nonsense. ] (]) 02:39, 9 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::Please specify which facts I got wrong. NCCIH is indisputably one of the over two dozen centers and institutes of NIH. (https://www.nih.gov/institutes-nih/list-institutes-centers). Are you saying that the National Cancer Institute or National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases are not part of NIH either and therefore have no validity as sources of information? | |||
::::::Also, to say that NCCIH is illegitimate because Sen. Tom Harkin was its original champion does not make any sense. All agencies of the U.S. Government ultimately derive from Congressional legislation and many are the result of particular politicians championing them. The Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, for example, was Sen. Elizabeth Warren’s pet project. Does that make it somehow “political” and therefore illegitimate? ] (]) 02:55, 9 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::I've already explained what you're getting wrong, but here it is one more time: The NCCIH is illegitimate because they publish nonsense. What they accept is not 'accepted by NIH' because the rest of the NIH (especially the NIH director) gets no say in the nonsense they publish. By conflating a fringe body with mainstream medical bodies, you are undermining your argument. If you have to cite the NCCIH for legitimacy, that is a sign to everyone else that what you're doing is promoting pseudoscience. We're now just repeating ourselves, so I imagine I will not comment again unless someone new comes up. Do not interpret my silence as agreement. ] (]) 03:05, 9 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
::::::::Yeah, you refused to respond to any of my specific questions or points, so I guess we’re done. Interesting, though, to learn that the National Cancer Institute and all of NIH’s other Centers and Institutes aren’t part of NIH and therefore their work can and should be ignored by Misplaced Pages. ] (]) 03:17, 9 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::You don't get it. NCCIH is not unreliable because NIH has no power over it. It is unreliable for other reasons, and it '''does not get to suck reputation from the NIH because NIH has no power over it'''. You tried to copy-and-paste the reliability from NIH to NCCIH, and that was refuted. Other centers and institutes are reliable or unreliable for their own reasons. | |||
:::::::::Possibly, the NIH itself will lose reliability from 2025 on because it will be ruled by a quackery proponent who forces it to publish dangerous nonsense. --] (]) 08:15, 9 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
:I agree. Claiming acupuncture is pseudoscience is a bold non-neutral statement. Misplaced Pages is too biased in this regard and I won't donate a cent to them until they fix this. ] (]) 15:58, 5 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
::]. It's precisely ''for'' reasons of neutrality that Misplaced Pages is obliged to observe that acupuncture is a pseudoscience. ] (]) 16:13, 5 December 2024 (UTC) | |||
:To present that some say it's 'pseudoscience' or 'quackery' without presenting that there are multiple meta-anaylsis studies showing its efficacy is deeply misleading. It fails to show the scientific backing that acupuncture has. A meta-analysis study does not just look at one randomized study or one case report. It is an in depth look at multiple scientific studies. Multiplele meta-analysis studies confirm the benefit of acupuncture. | |||
:For example note the study "Acupuncture for chronic pain: update of an individual patient data meta-analysis" Authors: Vickers, A. J., et al. (2018)Published In: The Journal of Pain, 2018. This study clearly demonstrated the efficacy of acupuncture in multiple studies for muscloskeletal, headache and osteoarthritis pain. Full text is available here https://www.jpain.org/article/S1526-5900(17)30780-0/fulltext | |||
:To have an accurate article on this subject without giving a profession that medical professionals spend years in education and which multiple scientific studies back these types of articles need to be addressed. | |||
:Dismissing such a long-standing practice as quackery is simply not showing the full picture and incredible benefit this medical profession offers the public. ] (]) 16:23, 7 January 2025 (UTC) | |||
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Semi-protected edit request on 24 September 2024
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I would like to make some suggestions to the acupuncture page. I do understand it is a contentious topic but believe some added edits and updated references would add better context as the WHO among others is expanding the use of traditonal medicine practices and has added a specific chapter in ICD11 for Traditional Medicine Acupuncture titled TM1
collapse long requested changeset |
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Change X - the theories and practices of TCM are not based on scientific knowledge, and it has been characterized as quackery.] to Y – . There is a range of acupuncture technological variants that originated in different philosophies, and techniques vary depending on the country in which it is performed. However, it can be divided into two main foundational philosophical applications and approaches; the first being the modern standardized form called eight principles TCM and the second being an older system that is based on the ancient Daoist wuxing, better known as the five elements or phases in the West. Acupuncture is most often used to attempt pain relief, though acupuncturists say that it can also be used for a wide range of other conditions. Acupuncture is generally used only in combination with other forms of treatment. The global acupuncture market was worth US$24.55 billion in 2017. The market was led by Europe with a 32.7% share, followed by Asia-Pacific with a 29.4% share and the Americas with a 25.3% share. It was estimated in 2021 that the industry would reach a market size of US$55 billion by 2023. Change X – ] to Y – . Acupuncture is generally safe when done by appropriately trained practitioners using clean needle technique and single-use needles. When properly delivered, it has a low rate of mostly minor adverse effects. When accidents and infections do occur, they are associated with neglect on the part of the practitioner, particularly in the application of sterile techniques. A review conducted in 2013 stated that reports of infection transmission increased significantly in the preceding decade. The most frequently reported adverse events were pneumothorax and infections. Since serious adverse events continue to be reported, it is recommended that acupuncturists be trained sufficiently to reduce the risk. Change X – and many modern practitioners no longer support the existence of life force energy (qi) or meridians, which was a major part of early belief systems.] to Y - However, modern research substantiates the effectiveness of Acupuncture. Studies using functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) have shown that acupuncture elicits changes in the brain that correlate with neurological effects. As confirmed by the world-renowned Cleveland Clinic, “Acupuncture affects the limbic and para-limbic networks in the brain and has a deep hemodynamic response, which is influenced by the psychophysical response. Acupuncture also stimulates the nervous system and improves conduction and communication between nerves. This improved functioning of the nervous system stimulates neurotransmitter actions and the release of the body’s natural endorphins and other opioids. For example, serotonin may be released following acupuncture, therefore helping patients feel more relaxed and sustain a sense of well-being that lasts for hours thereafter, if not longer. Research has also shown acupuncture’s ability in relieving myofascial pain by releasing muscular trigger points with ensuing concomitant anti-inflammatory effects.” Acupuncture is believed to have originated around 100 BC in China, around the time The Inner Classic of Huang Di (Huangdi Neijing) was published, though some experts suggest it could have been practiced earlier. Over time, conflicting claims and belief systems emerged about the effect of lunar, celestial and earthly cycles, yin and yang energies, and a body's "rhythm" on the effectiveness of treatment. Acupuncture fluctuated in popularity in China due to changes in the country's political leadership and the preferential use of rationalism or scientific medicine. Acupuncture spread first to Korea in the 6th century AD, then to Japan through medical missionaries, and then to Europe, beginning with France. In the 20th century, as it spread to the United States and Western countries, spiritual elements of acupuncture that conflicted with scientific knowledge were sometimes abandoned in favor of simply tapping needles into acupuncture points. Add Y – . Add Y – Change X: [Clinical practice Acupuncture is a form of alternative medicine. It is used most commonly for pain relief, though it is also used to treat a wide range of conditions. Acupuncture is generally only used in combination with other forms of treatment. For example, the American Society of Anesthesiologists states it may be considered in the treatment of nonspecific, noninflammatory low back pain only in conjunction with conventional therapy. ] to to Y: Clinical Practice Acupuncture is a form of alternative medicine. It is used most commonly for pain relief, though it is also used to treat a wide range of conditions. Acupuncture is generally only used in combination with other forms of treatment. For example, the American Society of Anesthesiologists states it may be considered in the treatment of nonspecific, noninflammatory low back pain only in conjunction with conventional therapy. Practitioners who practice Acupuncture are trained and take didactical coursework and clinical practice in their education; and, pass the National Certification Commission for Acupuncture and Oriental Medicine (NCCAOM) board exams, or a state-specific licensing exam in California. The Acupuncture training program includes techniques such as cupping, gua sha tui na, moxibustion, herbal medicine, lifestyle and nutrition based on Traditional Medicine principles. There is current research supporting that acupuncture has efficacy with pain management being the most well-known application. Conceptually, it is believed to stimulate the body's meridians, or energy-carrying channels, in an attempt to correct imbalances and to restore health. These benefits are thought to be derived from the proximity of acupoints with nerves through intracellular calcium ions. This lesson outlines a brief history of acupuncture and how it may be used to treat various types of physical and emotional pain and specific conditions, including overactive bladder and psoriasis. Acupuncture has been demonstrated to enhance endogenous opiates, such as dynorphin, endorphin, encephalin, and release corticosteroids, relieving pain and enhancing the healing process. Of particular note is that Acupuncture is now incorporated by highly-acclaimed Western Medicine providers as part of a treatment plan for numerous conditions. The world-renowned Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center endorses the newly updated Society of Integrative Oncology’s recommendations for acupuncture for breast cancer patients with joint pain. . Medical institutions such as the Mayo Clinic, National Cancer Institute, City of Hope, and Cleveland Clinic also integrate Acupuncture into their patients care programs. Sam Collins 33 (talk) 19:39, 24 September 2024 (UTC) |
- This is a hodgepodge of content copied verbatim from copyrighted sources. It can't be used. ScienceFlyer (talk) 20:04, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
- Also,
Historical records as old as 3,500 years demonstrate the effectiveness of Acupuncture
is invalid reasoning - argumentum ad antiquitatem - not consistent with WP:MEDRS, to give just one example. --Hob Gadling (talk) 06:45, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
- Also,
This article is racist
It must be changed. 2600:100F:A110:4802:ED55:9578:694F:5135 (talk) 22:14, 23 October 2024 (UTC)
- Opposing quackery such as acupuncture and Traditional Chinese Medicine does not make me a racist. Why?
Quoted by tgeorgescu (talk) 22:16, 23 October 2024 (UTC)If an Indian, American, British, Nigerian or Brazilian scientist makes an empirical claim about the body, they're expected to prove it, and that proof must be replicable. Why should it be different for Chinese scientists?
— User:WLU
Edit request on 3 December 2024
perennial complaints of 'bias' have been addressed countless times already |
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It is not “neutral” to immediately dismiss acupuncture as “pseudoscience in the first paragraph and subheading. That is an expression of opinion that fails to take into account years of scientific research on the topic accepted by the US NIH and other major health organizations. I recommend that the current “pseudoscience” sentence be supplanted by a sentence stating “The U.S. National Institutes of Health (NIH) states “there’s evidence that acupuncture may have effects on the nervous system, effects on other body tissues, and nonspecific (placebo) effects. (https://www.nccih.nih.gov/health/acupuncture-effectiveness-and-safety) The current “psuedoscience” sentence can be attributed to critics of the field, e.g., “Critics have dismissed the scientific research on the effects of acupuncture and characterized it as psuedoscience” — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kindlerva (talk • contribs) 18:16, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
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