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== Request for Comment at ] ==
==Retrocausality AfD==


There is a RfC at {{slink|Talk:Historicity of the Book of Mormon|RfC on category inclusion/exclusion}} as to whether ] should to be included in the "pseudohistory" category. ––] <span style="border-radius:7em;padding:2.5px 3.5px;background:#005bed;font-size:76%">]</span> 06:09, 25 May 2022 (UTC)
] is up for deletion ]. ] 20:01, 19 December 2006 (UTC)


== Proposed merge at ] ==
== Misplaced Pages Day Awards ==


I have proposed merging the article ] into ], which are of interest to this WikiProject.
Hello, all. It was initially my hope to try to have this done as part of ] proposal for an appreciation week to end on Misplaced Pages Day, January 15. However, several people have once again proposed the entirety of Esperanza for deletion, so that might not work. It was the intention of the Appreciation Week proposal to set aside a given time when the various individuals who have made significant, valuable contributions to the encyclopedia would be recognized and honored. I believe that, with some effort, this could still be done. My proposal is to, with luck, try to organize the various WikiProjects and other entities of wikipedia to take part in a larger celebrartion of its contributors to take place in January, probably beginning January 15, 2007. I have created yet another new subpage for myself (a weakness of mine, I'm afraid) at ] where I would greatly appreciate any indications from the members of this project as to whether and how they might be willing and/or able to assist in recognizing the contributions of our editors. Thank you for your attention. ] 18:16, 29 December 2006 (UTC)


You are invited join the discussion at {{slink|Talk:Sexual_orientation_change_efforts#Proposed_merge_to_Conversion_therapy}}. <small>Regards,</small> ] ] (] <b>·</b> ]) 17:27, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
== Electric universe (concept) AfD ==


== Alaska Mental Health Enabling Act Featured article review ==
] is ]. ] 04:06, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
I have nominated ] for a ]. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets the ]. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" in regards to the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are ].<!--Template:FARMessage--> ] (]) 17:12, 28 January 2023 (UTC)


== Project-independent quality assessments ==
==Tim Smith has an RfC==


Quality assessments are used by Misplaced Pages editors to rate the quality of articles in terms of completeness, organization, prose quality, sourcing, etc. Most wikiprojects follow the general guidelines at ], but some have specialized assessment guidelines. A recent ] was approved and has been implemented to add a {{para|class}} parameter to {{tl|WikiProject banner shell}}, which can display a general quality assessment for an article, and to let project banner templates "inherit" this assessment.
] has been the subject of a new ]. --] 19:20, 5 January 2007 (UTC)


No action is required if your wikiproject follows the standard assessment approach. Over time, quality assessments will be migrated up to {{tl|WikiProject banner shell}}, and your project banner will automatically "inherit" any changes to the general assessments for the purpose of assigning categories.
== Cognitive-Theoretic Model of the Universe ==


However, if your project decides to "opt out" and follow a non-standard quality assessment approach, all you have to do is modify your wikiproject banner template to pass {{tl|WPBannerMeta}} a new {{para|QUALITY_CRITERIA|custom}} parameter. If this is done, changes to the general quality assessment will be ignored, and your project-level assessment will be displayed and used to create categories, as at present. ] (]) 13:49, 9 April 2023 (UTC)
Discussion is ongoing ] about whether Christopher Michael Langan's "Cognitive-Theoretic Model of the Universe" deserves a section in his article. Outside input appreciated! ] 20:03, 9 March 2007 (UTC)


== Proposed move discussion - 2022 Peruvian political crisis ==
== Userbox ==


Hello! ] for the ] article. To broaden the involvement of users, you have been invited to review the discussion and provide your thoughts. Thank you! ] (]) 02:03, 24 April 2023 (UTC)
I propose that we should get Wikiproject userboxes involved to identify users. I also feel that we should expand our project page to make it more like other project pages. (example: related projects section)] 21:45, 3 April 2007 (UTC)


== RM Re: ] ==
:Thanks for joining and for your input! I've started a "Related projects" section. I wouldn't mind a userbox, and an image on the project page would be nice. Do you have ideas for these? ] 17:10, 4 April 2007 (UTC)


There is currently ], which is part of this WikiProject. A prior RFC closed with a consensus to change the name of the page, but those supporting the change were roughly split between two options: '''1980 October surprise theory''' and '''1980 October surprise allegations'''. In a follow-up discussion, the vast majority of editors said that they would prefer either name, but a few expressed an opinion for ''just'' one or the other. As such, we are seeking wider community input. Thanks for reading!--<span style="font-family:Georgia">''']'''</span> 22:14, 20 June 2023 (UTC)
::Sorry for the late answer; I think that first we have to have a related logo for the project, that would kick things off. ] ] 20:39, 3 April 2008 (UTC)


== RFC ] ==
:::We do now have a ], thanks to John Carter. A graphical logo would be great. WikiProject Paranormal has some ]—maybe something in that vein, but illustrating a notable non-paranormal alternative view, or the wider tension between dominant views and alternative views? ] (]) 01:45, 11 April 2008 (UTC)


There is a discussion at ] as to whether or not the life-extension practices of ] should be mentioned in the article. Given that it is what he is most known for by the general public and media, I feel as though it would be violating both ] and ] to not include it, as long as his practices are described neutrally. The other editor feels as though it is too fringe to include and that it cannot be properly contextualized. We would appreciate if others could give their input. Thanks!] (]) 05:17, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
::::Update: Our project page and userbox now have images! They depict ], who proposed a ] as an alternative view in Ancient Greece. His ideas were rejected in favor of geocentric theories for over 1700 years. ] (]) 02:20, 1 July 2008 (UTC)


== FAR for Voluntary Human Extinction Movement ==
== The Photon Belt ==


I have nominated ] for a ]. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets the ]. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" in regards to the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are ].<!--Template:FARMessage--> ] <sub> '']''</sub> 03:39, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
I have proposed a ] if anyone wants to contribute their comments about it. -] 09:13, 17 May 2007 (UTC)


== New project proposal == == New ] article ==


FYI, I recently created the Sabu disk page via translation from ]. I had to remove some of the content about alternative theories due to the translation tool's filter (accurately imo) flagging a source as ]. ] ] ] 15:52, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
There is a new WikiProject task force proposal at ] that is being proposed to deal specifically with articles whose content relates to several religious traditions. Any editors interested in joining such a group would be more than welcome to indicate their interest there. ] 15:08, 17 May 2007 (UTC)


:This would make a great Did You Know! ] (]) 16:00, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
== Conspiracy Con AfD ==


== Rfc - ] and ] ==
] has been ]--even after extensive sourcing. Please give your comments/vote. Thanks. -] <sup>(]|])</sup> 21:40, 18 May 2007 (UTC)


There's an ongoing RfC at ] of relevance to this project. ] (]) 21:16, 2 November 2023 (UTC)
== New thing==
Hi guys. I just wanted you to know I began a page today of interest to your project:
]. This is part of the expert finding process. ] 04:31, 2 June 2007 (UTC)


== Requested move at ] ==
:Thanks, Goldenrowley! ] (]) 05:36, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
] There is a requested move discussion at ] that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. ] (]) 21:59, 22 March 2024 (UTC)


== Requested move at ] ==
== Assessment department is an essential part of a WikiProject ==
] There is a requested move discussion at ] that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. ] (]) 02:48, 5 May 2024 (UTC)


== Wikiproject ==
At least topic-oriented WikiProjects such as this one (and most all others as well). It is a well-proven mechanism for recruitment to the project, and it provides a central focus helping us to identify where specific work is needed. The basic form of an assessment department rates articles by quality (from Stub to Featured Article). Many WikiProjects also include an importance (or priority) scale. More advanced features such as requests for peer-review, photo, infobox and alerts for pages in particular need of attention can be added also. For more ideas about how we can shape this project, take a look at ]. I have set up ] for two other WikiProjects (] and ]), and I will do it here also if this move is approved of. __] 10:22, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
:I have had similar concerns myself, and have also set up assessments for other projects. The only thing that has to date inhibited me from doing so is not knowing the specific "scope" of this project. In a case like this, where the project's goal is to ensure that what might be called the "minority opinion" gets fairly represented, I have trouble determining exactly which articles should and should not be included. I have a feeling that maybe the best way to go would be to set up a specific list of articles which the members feel are of importance to this project, and then tag them. But I am virtually certain that I as an individual am not qualified to address that sort of matter across the board. Having said that, I ''might'' be competent to deal with articles relevant to religion and philosophy. If anyone else could indicate which articles in that, or other fields, they believe require such NPOV representation, I think that would help immeasurably. I've started a page at ] which can be used to indicate which articles are in need of attention by this project. That might be the best way to start. ] 14:38, 1 October 2007 (UTC)


Would anyone be interested in joining a sub project of ] on ]? WP's coverage of this is quite poor atm imo ] (]) 17:16, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
::Thanks for your work and input, guys! Compiling and assessing a list of all articles relevant to this project could be a monumental task. Our scope is broad, encompassing alternative views in every field, from the sciences to the humanities. Of articles of interest to us, I think we can distinguish three groups:


== Expert needed: ] ==
:::1. Articles directly about alternative views, e.g. ], ], ].
This newly mainspaced relatively extensive article deals significantly with a religious and linguistic topic from an alternative viewpoint, and might need to be looked at by members of this project to ensure that the alternative view presented is treated fairly, proportionately, and without bias, in the context of the entire encyclopedia. The article could have elements of a ]. Please take a look at the content to see if there are any major issues. The talk page discussion is at ]. Thank you—]

:::2. Articles about people, books, events, etc. largely concerned with alternative views, e.g. ], '']'', ].

:::3. Articles not largely concerned with alternative views, but in whose context such views are notable enough to receive mention, e.g. ], ].

::It might be best to hold off on assessment for now and start simple, with a basic project banner that just lets editors know we exist. The banner could be added to articles in groups 1 and 2; articles in group 3 also deserve our attention, but wouldn't necessarily need the tag. I see our tasks as including the following. For groups 1 and 2, to create articles about notable topics, work to make such articles comprehensive, and prevent them from being deleted. For group 3, to give relevant alternative views due weight, but not ]. For all three groups, to make coverage of alternative views accurate, verifiable, and neutral. ] (]) 05:36, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

==Related?==
Goals of Rational Skepticism:
#To create '''new articles relating to science and reason'''.
#To create new Misplaced Pages articles regarding those topics not yet covered by Misplaced Pages, but which are covered by '''The Skeptic's Dictionary'''.
#To place {Rational Skepticism} tags on articles related to Rational Skepticism, fraudster tags on articles concerning convicted fraudsters, and '''add to criticisms sections where criticism is due'''.
#To '''identify cases of fraud and other unethical/illegal activities''' undertaken by religious and quasi-religious organizations, '''as they often go unreported'''.
#To improve those articles which need help.
#To serve as a nexus and discussion area for editors interested in doing such work.

Goals of Alternative views:
#create articles about''' notable alternative views'''
#work to make '''existing articles about alternative views factual and neutral'''
#'''prevent articles about notable alternative views from being deleted'''
#ensure that significant '''alternative views which are notable in the context of other articles'''
#receive '''adequate, factual, neutral representation in those articles'''
#assist in the '''formulation and clarification of policies, guidelines, and other project-space'''
#infrastructure relating to alternative views
#'''provide a support group and help forum for editors who are interested in improving Misplaced Pages's coverage of alternative views''', but who may be unfamiliar with Misplaced Pages's rules and conventions

I see no relationship between the two, but different goals with very different ideas. Thus I am removing the Rational Skeptics from related. --] 12:08, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

:They are clearly related, asserting otherwise is mere sophistry. __] 12:26, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

::How so? I see contradictions and conflicting points of view. (Although, if members of this project wish to restore the linkage, it is their project and they have a right to do so. My wish is to inform members of this project, of a recent addition to related, from a conflicting project with very different goals.) --] 12:29, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
:::True. It should however be noted that the changes to the "Articles" page, if that is what you are concerned with, were made by someone who is a member of this project. As there is no clearly defined scope to the project as it currently exists, that does serve as at least a basis for a start. ] 14:51, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
::::My wish was to alert this community to the change - it is this projects discretion to reverse my decison as SA (originally a member of Rational Skeptics) has done. I have no qualms with this. I've stated why I made my decision to remove and if any member disagrees or the project as whole (better for many reasons) then that would be fine. I do hope this project succeeds in its stated goals, without uneccessary conflict of interest arising, and wish everyone the best in the project. --] 01:35, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

::::The two projects aren't conflicting at all. I am a member of both projects and restored the link. ] 15:24, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

:Alternative views, particularly those involving ] phenomena, are a focus of skeptics and skeptical organizations; indeed, it is to examination of these views that ] is in practice most commonly applied. When skeptical commentary on an alternative view is notable, it deserves a place in our coverage of that view. For that reason, the aim of improving Misplaced Pages's coverage of alternative views overlaps the aim of improving Misplaced Pages's coverage of skepticism, and projects with these aims are related.

:That said, I and other users have ] about ]'s factionalism, apparent entry condition, and resemblance to a "skeptic's club". Since then, the project has made some changes: it no longer casts itself as "the central hub '''for Skeptical Wikipedians''' to get together and work on improving Misplaced Pages" (my bold), and ] is no longer a subcategory of ], which was deleted. The project does, however, still host ], a page "'''for skeptics''' to post their watchlist suggestions, or links to their watchlists" (my bold). The use of the term "Skeptic watchlists", rather than "Skepticism watchlists", and the phrase "for skeptics", rather than "for editors interested in skepticism", is a continuing cause for concern. ] 06:48, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

I think that this removal qualifies as a violation of ] and I have reported it ]. Northmeister should know better. ] 15:56, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
:Please show fellow editors some respect and ]. My intentions were the best, and it is the projects call. --] 01:35, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
::I personally have no reservations whatsoever to seeing any individual try to revert vandalism wherever he sees it, and thank you for your alertness. I personally have no doubt about your intentions, and thank you for also starting this thread explaining your edit. I personally wish all editors acted as well, because I think we all know several who don't. ] 01:42, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

:Northmeister made one edit, explained it, and when faced with disagreement, left the decision to the project, even to reverse his action if I and other members disagreed with it. Assuming good faith, I don't see a WP:POINT violation. ] 06:48, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

== Related new project proposal ==

There is now a proposal at ] for a group which would work to help ensure that our content complies with the principle of ]. One of its foci could definite be the so-called fringe theories, including fringe scientific theories. Any editors interested are encouraged to show their support there. Thank you. ] 18:59, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

==The Martinphi-ScienceApologist Interview==
''What is the role of science in producing authoritative knowledge? How should Misplaced Pages report on pseudoscience?'' Veterans of numerous edit wars and talk page battles spanning dozens of articles across Misplaced Pages, ] and ] will go head to head on the subject of '''Misplaced Pages, Science, and Pseudoscience''' in a groundbreaking interview to be published in an upcoming issue of ]. ] will moderate the discussion. Post suggested topics and questions at page. ] (]) 18:24, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

== Project needs a project template ==

Before we get a project banner template to stick on articles' talk pages, I don't think we are going to make very much headway. __] (]) 11:20, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

:Agreed. I've created a ] and ]. The next step might be to go through ], adding the banner where appropriate. ] (]) 12:11, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

== A very questionable list ==

We have at ] a list of articles which several editors have deemed to be within the scope of this project. I have initiated the work of adding our new talk page banner to these articles, however, I am finding so many entries which I cannot with my best imagination understand could possibly have anything to do with this project. I have however tagged all articles without letting my second thoughts interfere. This has been done up through ], which again made me balk. Perhaps we should discuss, and possibly prune, this list before I proceed further? __] (]) 09:36, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

The scope of this project is fuzzy, to say the least. As Meco notes, inclusion of ] into the scope of this project would mean that you could probably auto-add each and every article on Misplaced Pages. Tell you what, how about tagging those articles (if any) ''not'' falling into the scope of "alternative views"? You'd be done much sooner.

Now, if we see this as the private project of some Wikipedians, a list of "here are some articles we like to keep an eye on", fine. In this case, move it to user space, and refrain from tagging talkpages. But like other Wikiprojects, you seem to be keen on letting the world know "we were here", leaving your tags at the top of random talkpages.
If this is to be the way it is done, let the scope of this article be defined ''very'' clearly. E.g., only articles on topics ''directly'' attributable to a notable controversy. Perhaps only those articles that qualify for ], and perhaps ] (but, if ] simply equals ], what is the point? People can already navigate by category).
Otherwise, the project tag will mean nothing.
Alternatively, as I said, you are perfectly free to userify this and then do as you please, just as long as you refrain from advertising on article talkpages.
If this project is simply a counter-project to ], as I daresay it appears, it should be scrapped, or merged: we don't need turf-wars-by-project-templating. If there are two sides to a given field or topic, interested editors should unite within ''one'' Wikiproject and try to collaborate, they should not create party-line Wikiprojects vs. counter-Wikiprojects. All we want is proper enforcement of ]. If a minority view is notable, let it have its own article. If not, prevent it from having its own articles. I am disturbed by the implication that this project will try to "save" minority view articles from deletion if notable, while the obvious alternative: make sure that minority view articles ''failing'' our notability criteria are duly deleted, is conspicuously absent from the project goals.
If you have any experience at all in this field, you will agree that creation of minority view articles isn't a problem, they get created at a staggering pace. The difficult part is figuring out which to keep, which to merge, and which to delete. If you take a "keep by default" attitude, you are not "free of bias". The proper attitude dictated by our policies is "keep if notability is established, delete or merge otherwise". --] <small>]</small> 11:22, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

:Meco, thanks for your work tagging articles with the project banner! And Dbachmann, thanks for your input. For my thoughts on the scope of this project and what articles to tag, see my post in ] above, where I distinguish three groups of articles of interest to us and recommend tagging the first two. Let's just skip anything in ] that doesn't seem relevant. We can delete that page when we're done with it, now that we have ].

:For discussion of this project's relationship to WikiProject Rational Skepticism, see ] above. I think the aims of (1) improving Misplaced Pages's coverage of alternative views and (2) improving Misplaced Pages's coverage of skepticism are related but distinct, and can overlap without conflicting. I agree that editors should not create party-line WikiProjects. In fact, I've expressed concern in that regard about WikiProject Rational Skepticism, whose primary aim refers to "Wikipedians who wish to '''promote science and reason'''" and which hosts ], a page "'''for skeptics''' to post their watchlist suggestions, or links to their watchlists" (my bolds). In contrast, WikiProject Alternative Views is not about promoting alternative views, but about improving Misplaced Pages's coverage of them, and membership is for everyone, not just proponents. Granted, the project's stated goals do not include ensuring that articles about non-notable topics are deleted, but neither do those of WikiProject Rational Skepticism; I don't think that necessarily indicates bias. ] (]) 02:43, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

::I've been on the sidelines watching this project. I think the concept of this group is outstanding. I think that the so-called and self-proclaimed "rational skeptics" do need a counterbalancing force on wiki. Personally, I've given up on wiki contributions, and for that I apologize, but wanted to offer my 2 cents of encouragement. --] (]) 09:09, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

== Can this project be applied to conspiracies ==

Can this project be applied to conspiracy theories?] (]) 00:20, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

:Preeminently. __] (]) 07:46, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
:: I think it could be justified on pages about conspiracy theories themselves, but not related pages. Such as a fiction adventure film (eg Toxic Skies) which makes reference to a conspiracy theory (eg chemtrail conspiracy theory). <span style="font-family:Papyrus">] <small>]</small></span> 13:08, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

== ] ==

There is currently a discussion on the talk page of the above article which I believe would be of interest to the members of this project. Any and all input is welcome. Thank you. ] (]) 17:05, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

== Coordinators' working group ==



Hi! I'd like to draw your attention to the new ], an effort to bring both official and unofficial WikiProject coordinators together so that the projects can more easily develop consensus and collaborate. This group has been created after discussion regarding possible changes to the A-Class review system, and that may be one of the first things discussed by interested coordinators.

All designated project coordinators are invited to join this working group. If your project hasn't formally designated any editors as coordinators, but you are someone who regularly deals with coordination tasks in the project, please feel free to join as well. &mdash; <small>Delievered by <font color="green">]</font>'''&nbsp;<small>(<font color="red">]</font>)'''</small> on behalf of the WikiProject coordinators' working group at 04:42, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

== Attention needed: Project discussed at ] ==

Over on the AIDS denialism talk page a new user ({{User|Haytham2}}) is giving a description of this project which seems to be at odds with what this project says it is about, and also at odds with wikipedia policy. If some people with more experiance of this project could take a look, and point out any inaccuracies on the article talk page and perhaps to the user as well, I'd be very grateful. I'm pretty sure he is wrong in his interpretation of this project, but clarification would be helpful. All the best, ] <small>]</small> 13:47, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

:I am likely on the side of Haytham2 here as I would be on many similar battles. I'm not going to exhaust myself getting involved though. Merely keeping abreast of these discussions easily becomes a full-time occupation in and of itself, and there are simply too many worthy causes. My perspective on the opposition is that for many, fending off opinions that threaten to shatter their paradigm and hence their entire weltanschauung is so deeply existential that they are going to expend energy levels several orders of magnitude beyond what I would be willing to volunteer in these debates. Sure, this means that they somehow have Misplaced Pages in their grip. Does it change the trajectory of the underlying trends that they so frantically and with such vehemence want to get rid of? No, it doesn't. Concede to them every hard-won battle, because the war they have already lost. __] (]) 16:13, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

:: For what reason should the wikipedia article not reflect the use of the term in reliable sources? Misplaced Pages is not a place to right perceived wrongs. Are his summaries of the aims of this project correct? If so this project needs to change its aims to be in line with wikipedia policy or be disbanded. Also, has this editor other accounts, as you seem to know him well? Misplaced Pages is not a place to "further causes". Thanks, ] <small>]</small> 16:24, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

:::I have no idea who this editor is, and I only read the one post of his (or hers) which shows up immediately when you load the talk page using the link in the section header above. I agree that it cannot be the cause of this project to right wrongs. That would be a general cause of Misplaced Pages and all editors. __] (]) 20:39, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

:::: Can you point me to the policy or foundational issue that states that? The AIDS denialist article is appropriately named and neutral. Which policies does it contravene? ] <small>]</small> 22:09, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

::::: Meco, I'd still be interested in hearing your answer to the two questions I posed above. ] <small>]</small> 09:13, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

::::::I was inaccurate in this statement. I was thinking that this is an imperative of a greater magnitude, so I inflated it from the level of this wikiproject to Misplaced Pages and editorship. Now, that is also wrong. It would be something we are impelled to do as ethical human beings. __] (]) 11:13, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

* ] makes it pretty clear what boundaries we're working within. Correcting great wrongs, promoting a particular minority view, using articles as a platform, and so on are all ]. ] is not at all the same as sympathetic coverage. We still follow all normal policies when reporting about minority and fringe views. ] (]) 22:30, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

I was pretty clear in my posts on that page that I am not promoting my view (although ended up defending it in response to other posts), but rather trying to correct an "unfair" and "biased" term that is consistently used on Wiki: "denialist". While I understand that the majority of the scientific orthodoxy uses this term, it is also an intentionally pejorative term simply never ever used by dissidents (which is what they/we are called). "Denialist" brings to mind Holocaust deniers and also the unscientific frame of mind of denial itself. So since "AIDS denialist" is neither accurate (no dissident denies AIDS, but only HIV or its role), nor respectful, it seems to me to fall well within the scope of this project. Any more experienced editors here please correct me if I am wrong. ] (]) 23:28, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

: Please see ]. The term is the one used in the real world, so it is the term that should be used in an encyclopaedia. ] <small>]</small> 09:13, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

:: For topics where there is a clear majority name for a topic, we defer to that. The majority of reliable sources, which includes scientific orthodoxy and mainstream news sources, refer to the beleif/group as "denialism". Thus, Misplaced Pages refers to the subject by the same name. The introduction explicitly notes what those holding the position prefer to name themselves. Redirects are used to ensure that these alternative names link to the article (for example: ]). Due to the nature of Misplaced Pages, our coverage will naturally be biased towards the mainstream point of view and naming conventions. This wikiproject exists to help ensure minority views are covered appropriately within the rules of Misplaced Pages. While this means making sure significant and notable minority views receive proper coverage, it is not meant as a counterweight to mainstream views, intended to correct gaps in reliable source coverage, nor correct any great wrongs. As an example noted on the project page, minority views are often excluded simply because Misplaced Pages editors are unfamiliar with them or simply not aware of them (and their coverage in reliable sources). This is the type of error we should aim to correct, but we are not free to correct "errors" in real world coverage. ] (]) 14:40, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

A project looking to cover "alternative views" on Misplaced Pages would see to it that there ''is'' an article on ], not to try and give it any credibility it does not have. Misplaced Pages is a platform to document the most lunatic, extremist, dumb or eccentric views there are, if only they are ]. But it will always label them for what they are. If they are pseudoscience or hoaxes, they will be labelled as 'pseudoscience', or 'hoax'.

This is why the heliocentrism icon is an '''extremely poor''' choice for representing this project. The implication is that "an idea that may sound stupid today may still turn out to be correct in the future". This is what every crank will tell you about their pet theory. That is an inversion fallacy, of course. Ground breaking ideas are often ridiculed. From this it doesn't follow that if your idea is ridiculed, it must be groundbreaking. It is astronomically more likely that it is ridiculed simply because it is ridiculous. --] <small>]</small> 13:47, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
: Astrologically well put (I agree). ] <small>]</small> 13:52, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

== Is this project for or against OR? ==

Here are some thoughts to get a discussion going:

* "Misplaced Pages does not publish original research or original thought. This includes unpublished facts, arguments, speculation, and ideas; and any unpublished ] or synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position. This means that ] the place to publish your own opinions, experiences, or arguments." -- ]

* "Rouge admins are a ] of ], governed by ] and ], who stand in the way of ]’s true purpose, which is to disseminate new and controversial theories, publicise hitherto suppressed views about ] figures, document the stories which the ] refuse to touch, help the ] to achieve the ],<ref>Freedom, ], apple pie and to go at least six weeks without being invaded by ] hordes.</ref> and bring to ] attention the “]” which the said groups refuse to endorse." -- ]

* "I act to mitigate, redesign, and occasionally destroy the offerings of users who think that a particular "breakthrough" or "notable idea" deserves more consideration than it has gotten in the academic world. Such grandstanding is forbidden by a variety of Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines (], ], ], ], ], ], and ] to name just a few). Misplaced Pages is inherently a non-innovative reference work: it stifles creativity and free-thought. If Misplaced Pages had been around at the time of Galileo, his ideas would have been subject to my incisive commentary and editorial braggadocio -- ''even if I agreed with him''. I am a ''status quo'' promoter. NPOV-PUSHER." -- ]

So, what think ye? Are you here at this project intent on ensuring that NOR is upheld and that the policies regarding the proper treatment of ] are upheld, or do you think that they are getting the raw end of the deal and so you are here to ensure that they get more coverage? -- ] (]) 03:07, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

:There's no reason it cannot be both! :-) ] supports the first. At the same time, ] supports the second. This project's purpose, as I understand it (an interpretation I believe is supported by the main project page), is to make sure neglected minority views have their coverage improved ''within'' the bounds of established policies. There's plenty of "alternative views" areas that need a lot of attention, and even expansion. Some are horrible stubs. Others are fluff pieces or hit jobs written by editors looking to share ''The Truth''. Sometimes a ''significant'' minority (of ]) may be excluded, simply because the previous editors were not aware of it or were not aware of its extent. I'm sure you can imagine plenty of other examples. The key is that this all should be done while following our basic content principles. It should not be an excuse to ] or any other such ].

: tl:dr version: Both. Follow policy. Improve neglected areas. :) ] (]) 05:18, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

:: Good answer. Thanks. -- ] (]) 07:12, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

:::Erm, how can it be both. The project is ''for'' OR? When does that not contradict policy? It's not a good answer, it's a meaingless non-answer.]] 09:24, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

:::: On the surface it's a bad answer, because we obviously shouldn't be ''for'' OR, but I consider it a good answer because he revealed he was thinking of other aspects of the subject that aren't covered by my question, IOW my question was too limited. Either/or questions often are too limited. It's true that some fringe views might not get the coverage they should get, and that can be done without violating OR. His final qualifier is what saves him: ''"The key is that this all should be done while following our basic content principles."''
:::: My question is designed to elicit comments and get people thinking, so there can be more than one answer. Maybe others have thoughts of other angles that aren't yet covered. -- ] (]) 14:30, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

<-- Maybe the section ] should get tweaked with the addition of Vassyana's qualifiers, because there are newbie editors who are so simplistic that they might interpret this project as license to engage in OR. -- ] (]) 14:36, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

: Fully agree that this clarification is needed given some interpretations I've seen. ] <small>]</small> 14:55, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

:: Continuing below. -- ] (]) 02:32, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

== Does ] belong here? ==

:''Moved discussion from ]
<-- copy begin -->
<blockquote>
I see that you added WikiProject Alternative Views back into ]. That's fine, but I originally removed it because I'm not sure how it fits into your project. It's already tagged as a member of WikiProject Medicine, WikiProject Psychedelics, Dissociatives and Deliriants, and WikiProject Alternative medicine. How does tagging it with "Alternative Views" help the article? Or to look at this another way, how does "alternative views" apply? Just consider me ignorant on the matter; all I ask for is some form of education on the topic, as I'm not familiar with the AV project. ] (]) 09:53, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

:I hadn't noticed that it had been taken off the project. Well, it's a judgement call, and there is decidely significant overlap between some projects. I figure it belongs as the topic encompasses some significant conflict between its proponents and the scientific/medical establishment. I consider a topic being prominent conflict material to be one major criterion for deciding that an article belongs to WP Alternative Views. __] (]) 10:12, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
::Thank you for explaining. If that is your position, then I disagree. The conflict does not stem from the scientific nor the medical establishment, but is solely a political and governmental issue concerning the use of illegal drugs. Looking at surveys that measure public opinion across the board, those in favor of using medical cannabis or at least allowing it are a significant ''majority'', so I don't see how this is an "alternative view" at all. Yes, it is ''now'' considered alternative medicine, but until sweeping drug laws were put in place across the globe in the early 20th century, cannabis was once part of the medical establishment. I really don't see this as an "alternative view" in any way. The right to self-medicate, to alleviate pain and suffering, is a basic human right that no government can regulate or take away. ] (]) 10:25, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
:::You state your position in an interesting manner. As I read you you are actually advocating that medical cannabis should be perceived as an uncontroversial subject. It is my clear perception that this is a controverisal issue, and simply shifting the controversy from the realm of physicians and scientists to that of politicians and government figures does not suffice to make it an uncontroversial issue. I'll be glad to discuss with fellow Alternative Views project members this particular article and whether there is consensus to have it included in our project if you insist that it doesn't belong. __] (]) 10:47, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
::::What is controversial about the issue? Surely, you should be able to describe the controversy in a sentence or two? I think you will find it very, very hard to show ''any'' controversy when discussing the use of medical cannabis by people suffering from serious diseases, and that is exactly what this topic is about. I think I can safely observe that there is ''no'' controversy. What there is, however, ''is'' the political and legal will of a very small group of people who wish to prevent others from alleviating pain and suffering. No, that is not controversial by any stretch of the imagination; The correct word for it is criminal. Which is an alternative view? ] (]) 11:14, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
</blockquote>
<-- copy end -->
: I'm not convinced it belongs, in fact I think there is a lot of cruft in the list of tagged articles. It could do with a spring clean. ] <small>]</small> 18:50, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

== ] section needs qualifiers ==

<-- ''Copied from ]:''

There's no reason it cannot be both! :-) ] supports the first. At the same time, ] supports the second. This project's purpose, as I understand it (an interpretation I believe is supported by the main project page), is to make sure neglected minority views have their coverage improved ''within'' the bounds of established policies. There's plenty of "alternative views" areas that need a lot of attention, and even expansion. Some are horrible stubs. Others are fluff pieces or hit jobs written by editors looking to share ''The Truth''. Sometimes a ''significant'' minority (of ]) may be excluded, simply because the previous editors were not aware of it or were not aware of its extent. I'm sure you can imagine plenty of other examples. The key is that this all should be done while following our basic content principles. It should not be an excuse to ] or any other such ].

tl:dr version: Both. Follow policy. Improve neglected areas. :) ] (]) 05:18, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

...

: Maybe the section ] should get tweaked with the addition of Vassyana's qualifiers, because there are newbie editors who are so simplistic that they might interpret this project as license to engage in OR. -- ] (]) 14:36, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

:: Fully agree that this clarification is needed given some interpretations I've seen. ] <small>]</small> 14:55, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

<-- '' End copy. Continue below.''

Let's give it a try here. The section currently has this wording:

'''Version 1 (current version):'''

* ''Misplaced Pages's policy is to write articles from a ] describing not just the dominant view, but significant alternative views as well, fairly, proportionately, and without bias. Because alternative views lack the widespread acceptance enjoyed by dominant views, fewer editors know or care about them, and this imbalance puts alternative views at risk of neglect, misrepresentation, and a level of coverage not in keeping with their relative notability. This project aims to counter that tendency by facilitating collaboration among interested editors.''

Here's an attempt to tweak it and enlarge it:

'''Version 2 (Fyslee):'''

* ''Misplaced Pages's policy is to write articles from a ] describing not just the dominant view, but significant alternative views as well, fairly, proportionately, and without bias. Because alternative views lack the widespread acceptance enjoyed by dominant views and often suffer from a lack of coverage in ] and ], fewer editors know or care about them, and this imbalance puts alternative views at risk of neglect, misrepresentation, and a level of coverage not in keeping with their relative notability. This project aims to counter that tendency by facilitating collaboration among interested editors. This should all be done while following our basic content principles. It should not be an excuse to ], or engage in ]. Other Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines that are relevant are ], ], ], and ].''

That's a start, and I'm sure it will need more tweaking. Please propose your version(s) below and number them. -- ] (]) 02:32, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
: Seems good to me. Perhaps the list of relevant polices should go in Policies and guidelines section, which can be expanded. ] <small>]</small> 07:54, 6 March 2009 (UTC)


(Note: I'm a he, not a she. *chuckle*) I'm good with most any revision close to the mark. Please be sure to remove or merge material from other sections, so the page doesn't become redundant. To me, the essential point boils down to: "We are not here to correct real-world coverage. We are here to ''report'' real-world coverage. We are not here to counterbalance real-world sources. We are here to balance ''according to'' real-world sources." --] (]) 21:54, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

: SIR! My apologies. I have just performed ] on my previous comment ;-) I like your remark here very much. That's the essence of what NPOV and NOR are about. ''That'' is our job. -- ] (]) 01:45, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

==]==

This is a notice to let you know about ''''']''''', a ] subscription-based news delivery system designed to notify WikiProjects and Taskforces when articles are entering ], ], ] and other workflows (]). The reports are updated on a daily basis, and provide brief summaries of what happened, with relevant links to discussion or results when possible. A certain degree of customization is available; WikiProjects and Taskforces can choose which workflows to include, have individual reports generated for each workflow, have deletion discussion transcluded on the reports, and so on. An example of a customized report can be found ].

If you are already subscribed to ''Article Alerts'', it is now easier to ] and ]. We are also in the process of implementing a ], which would let projects know about ongoing discussions on a wikipedia-wide level, and other things of interest. The developers also note that some subscribing WikiProjects and Taskforces use the <code>display=none</code> parameter, but forget to '''give a link''' to their alert page. Your alert page should be located at "Misplaced Pages:PROJECT-OR-TASKFORCE-HOMEPAGE/Article alerts". Questions and feedback should be left at ].<!--Addbot-WP-Message-Article-alerts-01-->

Thanks. — ]&nbsp;{<sup>]</sup><sub style="margin-left:-4.0ex;">]</sub>&nbsp;&ndash;&nbsp;]} 08:44, 15 March, 2009 (UTC)

== Socionics not an alternative view ==

It's intriguing that the military recruitment tools of East European nations qualify as "alternative" views. Another example of Western bias on the English Misplaced Pages?

I mean did you even read the external link to the Socionics INSTITUTE? Any of you? Did you even think about this?

I realize it's not fair to blame all of you for this insult to the history of East Europe scientific acheivement, but to those who are more competant about these things do speak up next time. Also, I like how MBTI merits inclusion on the CD, yet socionics ''doesn't'' despite its much more advanced model. I wonder if there is a conflict of interest afoot? ] (]) 11:05, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

:With that said, I think you should either take the socionics article off of the alternative views list, or consign MBTI to it as well. ] (]) 06:57, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

== WP:NOT#PLOT ==

{{fmbox|
style=background: #ECF6FF; border-left: 1em solid #51A7F4;|
text='''WP:NOT#PLOT:''' There is an ] discussing if our policy on plot, WP:PLOT, should be removed from ]. Please feel free to comment on the discussion and straw poll. |
}}

Apologies for the notice, but this is being posted to every WikiProject to avoid accusations of systemic bias. ] <small>] </small> 13:21, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

==Rename of Category==
Some of you may wish to participate in the discussion on renaming the category ''Armenian Genocide deniers'' to ''Armenian Genocide skeptics''. The discussion is ].--] (]) 14:30, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

== How broad is the scope of this project - does it also include potentially imbalanced views on popular topics ==

Obviously I understand the goal of any project here is defined by its members individual opinions of what it should be, so this might not have a definitive answer, but I'll propose the question nonetheless.

As I understand it, the main current goal of this project is to look for small underdeveloped articles "needing attention" (possibly stubs), or to create new articles, for subjects without a lot of coverage on Misplaced Pages, owing to the fact that those with knowledge of them or with interest in these topics are in a minority and thus under-/un-represented. Or not fluent English speakers and mainly contribute to projects in other languages.

My question regards large existing articles that receive had a lot of attention, are on topics of great popular interest. When viewed by an "average" English speaking white male American (just using the typical en.wikipedia editor according to statistics as an example) the topic of these articles might seem well represented in their contents, but in reality the views of minority cultures, nationalities, etc. might not be well represented.

What are people's views on this? It's an area that might not show up on radar as easily as small under-developed articles might. ]] 09:18, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

==Does your WikiProject care about talk pages of redirects?==
Does your project care about what happens to the talk pages of articles that have been replaced with redirects? If so, please provide your input at ]. Thanks, ] (]) 01:31, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

==GA Sweeps invitation==
This message is being sent to WikiProjects with ] under their scope. Since August 2007, ] has been participating in ''']'''. The process helps to ensure that articles that have passed a nomination before that date meet the ]. After nearly two years, the ''']''' has just passed the 50% mark. In order to expediate the reviewing, several changes have been made to the process. A ''']''' has been created, detailing which articles are left to review. Instead of reviewing by topic, editors can consider picking and choosing whichever articles they are interested in.

We are always looking for new members to assist with reviewing the remaining articles, and since this project has GAs under its scope, it would be beneficial if any of its members could review a few articles (perhaps your project's articles). Your project's members are likely to be more knowledgeable about your topic GAs then an outside reviewer. As a result, reviewing your project's articles would improve the quality of the review in ensuring that the article meets your project's concerns on sourcing, content, and guidelines. However, members can also review any other article in the worklist to ensure it meets the GA criteria.

If any members are interested, please visit the ] for further details and instructions in initiating a review. If you'd like to join the process, please add your name to the ]. In addition, for every member that reviews 100 articles from the ] or has a significant impact on the process, s/he will get an award when they reach that threshold. With ~1,300 articles left to review, we would appreciate any editors that could contribute in helping to uphold the quality of GAs. If you have any questions about the process, reviewing, or need help with a particular article, please contact me or ] and we'll be happy to help. --Happy editing! ] (] • ]) 21:58, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

==Timewave zero==
The article on Terrance McKennas ] has just been through an Afd which it survived with no concencuss. A user is now trying to merge it into another article where it is reduced to a paragraph. Any comments on the debate are welcome. ] (]) 11:03, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

== FAR notice for Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi ==

{{#if:|] has|I have}} nominated ] for a ]. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets ]. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are ].''']''' (]) 06:34, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

==Raëlism GA Sweeps: On Hold==
I have reviewed ] for GA Sweeps to determine if it still qualifies as a Good Article. In reviewing the article I have found several issues, which I have detailed ''']'''. Since the article falls under the scope of this project, I figured you would be interested in contributing to further improve the article. Please comment there to help the article maintain its GA status. If you have any questions, let me know on my talk page and I'll get back to you as soon as I can. --Happy editing! ] (] • ]) 05:27, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

== RfC on merger of Bristol Indymedia with Independent Media Center ==

An RfC has been opened - discussion at ]. ] (]) 08:44, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

== Steve Lightfoot ==

Hello. I am getting in touch with you because I am after some advice, and this seemed the most reasonable space to ask. I have been involved in creating an article about ], who is a conspiracy theorist with some quite unusual views. I am of the opinion that Lightfoot is notable, but so far people are nominating the article for deletion. I am obviously prepared to accept the result of the discussion, but I am concerned that the only people involved in the discussion are ] fans, who may well dislike Lightfoot (as King crops up in Lightfoot's most well known theory). I was wondering if you had any advice - I am aware that the very nature of Alternative Views is that they are often harder to source than mainstream ones, and despite Lightfoot's mention in several (both local and national) news sources, I am concerned I am fighting a losing battle.

I wonder if anyone could advise me:

- if there is a better way of sourcing my article to avoid its deletion
or
- if I'm just going nowhere and the article is likely to be deleted anyway.

Any help you may have would be great - I'm not overly versed in the policies of Misplaced Pages (but I have been reading up), and any help you could give me would be greatly appreciated.

Many thanks

] (]) 13:30, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

:: Oh well, he was deleted anyway. I am made unhappy by this. But I will return! Thank you for your help ] (]) 14:08, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

== Members fighting each other over project scope ==

I have in recent times been in several confrontations with ] over the placement of the project banner on talk pages of articles on topics such as a Chemtrail conspiracy movie, an academic promoting reincarnation research, and most recently, an article on alternative media.

I think these skirmishes are highly unnecessary, and they also become disruptive when the evolve to bickering and revert wars. Since this is obviously a question which goes to the core of this project, i.e. which articles belong within the scope of this WikiProject, this page is the place where a thorough discussion should take place &ndash; a discussion which aims to revise our current scope description into something less ambiguous and having the broadest possible consensus in support of it.

The current scope of the project is defined to be:

:''..those theories, hypotheses, conjectures, and speculations which, though notable, lack widespread acceptance, and which may challenge a "dominant view" which does have such acceptance. The project encompasses alternative views in every field, from the sciences to the humanities.

I hope as many project members as possible will see the importance of conducting this discussion without further delay. __] (]) 14:47, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
:Proposal sounds good to me. The only thing I would add is that it might also be a good idea to try to specificy which category or catgories such articles should be placed in to get the attention of the project. ] (]) 17:28, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
:: If challenged we should be able to justify on each article the existence of the banner. <span style="font-family:Papyrus">] <small>]</small></span>

:::If we had a clear and unambiguous project scope that had been conceived through a thorough consensus-making decision process, sure. Since we don't really have that, taking our differences of opinion out on the articles' talk pages gets very messy. __] (]) 00:59, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
:::: Either justify it on each page or remove it. It does not deserve to be on Toxic Skies (or The hunt for Red October, which also involves a CT as a central plot device, for example) and nor does it deserve to be on indymedia (that's taking alternative view too literally, and is not the kind of alternative view outlined in our scope). Note I discussed the Toxic skies film in the thread above. Justifications must be provided when asked for.<span style="font-family:Papyrus">] <small>]</small></span> 07:38, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
:::::You seem very little interested in developing this project but only in having your interpretation in a rather myoptic, coercive and unyielding way. I am not interested in fighting you on every article talk page where you feel the project banner has been placed in error simply because you are more interested in doing that than discussing the basic issue here. I will continue to work for a consensus among all project members on a revised project scope and aim description. __] (]) 13:26, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
:::::: I don't think this project should be extended to include every article which either has the word alternative in it (such as indymedia, which is clearly outside our scope) or touches upon a fringe view (which is a better name for this project) such as films like Toxic Skies, The hunt for Red October, Men in black, etc. Documentaries about fringe views, yes, fiction like Toxic Skies, no. Please don't say I'm pushing my own POV, as you do in the edit summary, when you have so far failed to justify your placing of the banner. If you can't justify the project banner then it should be removed. If you want to change our scope to justify the banner on pages outside of our scope, then propose changes to the scope. In the meantime the banner should be removed from any article where a member or non member questions it, and no one justifies it. <span style="font-family:Papyrus">] <small>]</small></span> 16:12, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

== What should this project's scope be? ==

The scope section is not very clear. It should limit itself to describe the scope, i.e. which areas and topics are covered by this project.

I will put forward a suggestion that this project could become a parent project for some other projects dealing with fringe topics and disciplines, such as the Paranormal WikiProject, Alternate History WikiProject, WikiProject Alternative medicine, WikiProject Alternative education, WikiProject Psychedelics, Dissociatives and Deliriants and WikiProject Cannabis. I am not proposing this, but merely presenting the idea here for others to comment on or discuss.

When it comes to conspiracy theories I would propose we cover articles on these, on conspiracy theorists and on media which promotes them in an earnest fashion, whether they be documentaries or fictional films. Movies and television that deal with conspiracy theories in an exploitive fashion, such as the movie '']'' or the X-Files TV series should be outside the project scope.

I think we should consider subjects that are often ridiculed and demonized, whether that be the ] or ], as well as alternative culture such as the hippie movement. We should cover drug policy reform and white supremacy.

These are my thoughts for now. Nothing hewn in rock, so please don't bring out your artillery quite yet. __] (]) 21:18, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

== Why people have alternative views ==

I think it might help if the project had some kind of discussion on why people have alternative views and why others reject them. The general assumption of the project seems to be that most people are honestly trying to find the truth and can have an honest disagreement about what the evidence is saying. That is probably a reasonable assumption in most situations. But if you look at ], it is mostly about the motivations for genocide denial and pretty much assumes that deniers have some conscious or subconscious motive that blinds them to the evidence. I don't know what the best approach is here. Most of the time this is probably true... but is that a fair way to represent an alternative view? ] (]) 12:10, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

:I think any assumption that those who oppose an established mainstream position do so because of psychological factors is extremely dangerous to assert. We could and should present opinions from relevant experts on such possible delusions or psychological impairing factors, but generally not from proponents of the mainstream position that consider the other side "nuts" or who as a mere point of view present a bad faith characterization of the other side. As for the term ''denier'' that is a totally POV term that Misplaced Pages shouldn't be using at all. Unfortunately there's a strong lobby for maintaining it within our accepted terminology. __] (]) 20:24, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

::I agree with most of what you say. I think that alternative oviews should firstly be evaluated in terms of the evidence for and against. But we should we not document the fact that people ascribe these alternative views to psychological factors? Especially if such analyses are put forward by reputable people (such as ] in the case of ]. So I think, applying my preferred approach to that case, we would start the article by stating that some people do not believe that some genocides took place. We would probably then state that reasons vary from case to case but that it is often believed that the claim of genocide is being made to ruin a reputation and is based on evidence from unreliable sources (or something like that, I'm not an expert on that particular topic). Only then would it present the counter claims, e.g. that the deniers choose to believe the sources are unreliable so as to preserve a reputation in their own mind. Finally, the article would link to various cases and the particular evidence for and against each being a genocide would be presented in each separate article.
::I'm not sure what I think about the word ''denial''. To me it doesn't really imply a psychological disorder, but I know that is how some people read it. For example, I deny the existence of God, which makes me an atheist but I don't see that I am admitting any kind of mental aberration there. That is just my assessment of the evidence. I guess this all comes from ] using the word ] to describe a defence mechanism in the face of overwhelming evidence. I wonder if their are any more-specific terms for Freudian and non-Freudian denial. That might help us to be clearer on this subject. An alternative approach might be to explain at the begining of the article that, genocide denial or ] is such and such a belief. But then go on to explain that "the term is often used to imply ] and hence imply a psychological aberration on the part of the denier" or something along those lines. ] (]) 17:32, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
:::Afterthought - the article on ] does actually give some cases of the whole concept being unhelpful. But these bit aren't very well written. Maybe we need to start by looking at the denial article, since the whole ''Freudian concept of Denial'' is often used to attack alternative views. ] (]) 17:36, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

== Article clearly belonging to this project ==

I find that the article ] clearly falls within the scope of this project. User:Verbal . Any takers? __] (]) 15:59, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

:I would say it belongs to ] instead. -- ]] 23:35, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

== ] ==

It seems to me this whole project can be shut down by the reliable source policy on "Extremist and fringe sources". It says "Organizations and individuals that express views that are widely acknowledged by reliable sources as fringe, pseudo-academic, or extremist may only be used as sources of information about those organisations or individuals." In my experience, a source in the minority is barred completely because editors will revert it saying the source is "extremist or fringe". I have tried to cite a tenured professor who was hired to research for the US Senate and was unable to do so on the grounds the source was "fringe". The policy does not appear to allow any counter-arguments. If it is "fringe" (or, more accurately, subject to the possibility of being deemed "fringe" by other Wiki users) it is out! I suggest working to change that reliable source policy before going down this road of trying to ensure that "alternative" views get a hearing.] (]) 20:59, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

:Hear hear! --] (]) 21:53, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

::These guidelines do seem overly restrictive. I agree we should work to change them. I can see a balance has to be struck but they don't seem to strike it in the best way at the moment. My preference on alternative views is that they should be given their own article where they can be described and the evidence supporting the theory or otherwise can be presented. A good example of this would be the article on ]. Of course, if you had an article on absolutely every alternative view, there would be an enormous amount of rubbish that it would be difficult to verify. So we need some rules on notability. But again, I think the current guide on notability is too restrictive. At least, I would probably allow theories that are a bit less notable than those given as examples. ] (]) 10:25, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

:::What seems to have gotten Bdell555 started on this -- four years ago -- was not being allowed to use Holocaust Denial sites -- ], in particular -- as sources. --]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 18:22, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

::::A holocaust denial site would be a perfectly reasonable source to reference from an article on holocaust denial. That would enable you to make a verifiable statement about what such people claim. That all seems to fit nicely into the guidelines until you see point 4 - the source may be used so long as "there is no reason to doubt its authenticity". I suppose it depends on what you mean by authenticity - the source may be an authentic account of the beliefs or claims of holocaust deniers but there are lots of reasons to doubt its authenticity as actual history of the holocaust. If the rules could be clarified on this issue that would remove my main objection in this area. ] (]) 19:01, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
:::::Agree clarification would be needed. However, I think -- the edit that resulted in a polite conversation between Bdell555 and I -- is a quite legitimate removal of a Holocaust denial site from a non-Holocaust-Denial related article. My position might be extreme, but it's held up for almost as long as I've been here: holocaust denial sites are ipso facto unreliable sources, as they are dedicated to the propagation of falsehood. --]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 21:10, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

::::::I have made a change which ''hopefully'' clarifies the rule. Let's see if anyone argues with it. Or maybe someone will improve upon it... that would be nice. ] (]) 23:54, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

::::::I wouldn't call it a "conversation" because when I've pointed out the logical fallacy of this "ipso facto" business it's quickly become, to my great frustration, "talk to the hand". The fallacy is that one cannot demand a <i>logically necessary</i> conclusion when the support for the conclusion is, in fact, merely empirical. Empirical research can only support an <i>empirical</i>, ] conclusion; in other words, jpgordan says he has gone into the field and noted that all <i>observed birds</i> are white. He then concluded that all birds are white. If I, or anyone else, were to come along and say look at this black bird I've found, jpgordan refuses to participate in any inquiry because he believes that he knows on a ] basis that a black bird is impossible. This when his knowledge is, in fact, only <i>a posteriori</i>. It's like telling Galileo that the earth cannot possibly go around the sun because the idea that the sun goes around the earth has "held up for almost as long as I've been here". The difference between the 21st century and the 17th is that the received wisdom has changed with the political tides, not that there is any less a received wisdom. That a practice has "held up" is, of course, just a reference to the fact that at end of the day Misplaced Pages is mob rule and the mob has little appetite for dissidence. This whole "alternative views" project cannot be expected to go anywhere when someone can just wield this " are dedicated to the propagation of falsehood" argument as a trump card. Like any community, the community of Wiki users develops a set of norms and any deviation from those norms is exactly that: deviant. The final result is that the majority ensures that everyone is told what the majority wants to hear.] (]) 07:31, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Bdell, I too can certainly relate to a lot of what you are saying. Who is the tenured professor you are referring to?

I am trained in science, have a couple of university degrees, and actually regard myself as a fairly mainstream person, but I do have an interest in the work of ], who was a tenured professor at the ] until his retirement. On his death he received obituaries in NYT , Washington Post , and Daily Telegraph , so he is quite notable, and he has written 13 books, mainly published by the University of Virginia Press. He has worked in several areas, including ].
But there are sceptics on wikipedia who seemingly just don't want his work to see the light of day. And several articles relating to his work seem likely to be deleted, see , , and ]. I have never seen deletions being pursued so vigorously as here; it is like these people are on some sort of righteous crusade. It seems to me that sources such as the ] and ] are just not being seen as reliable in any circumstances. ] (]) 20:07, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
: Fear not, they have become redirects to the only notable article that was notable. The way I came across them was by using the "related" and "what links here" tag. The list of books article was never going to stay here. I also am a scientist with several university degrees, etc. I would also agree that neither of those publications are reliable, without corroborating RS. Ian Stevenson is notable, although a sad case of wasted talent. <span style="font-family:Papyrus">] <small>]</small></span> 20:22, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

:Johnfos, as per my remarks above, what one has to do is ensure that Wiki policies focus on PROCESS and thereby preclude the possibility of community norms coming in to shut down the conclusions of sound process that happen to be socially deviant. The "extremist and fringe" policy is a big green light for norm enforcers to come in and eliminate "alternative views". It ought to be entirely irrelevant how "extremist" or "fringe" a source is. What ought to matter is how scientific, sound, and logical its processes are.] (]) 07:44, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

:: One thing Misplaced Pages's policies ''do not'' do and should never do is focus on process. The spirit of the policy matters much more than the words. --] 10:53, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

::: Well it is certainly common practice for people to first decide whether they want material in or not and then work backwards to ] their decision. Hence the "words" become irrelevant and policy becomes whatever the mob says they feel its "spirit" to be. Sadly, some users don't even feel compelled to share their rationalization, let alone ].] (]) 11:12, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

:::: I think that's an unnecessarily jaundiced description of how things work. The problem with process is that, whilst it has its merits, it's slow and tends to hamper necessary action. On Misplaced Pages, typically a single person will take the initiative and do something that ], In a rulebound system, the response would be that his action is undone on the basis that process wasn't followed, even if it was the right thing to do. On Misplaced Pages, on the other hand, we tend to accept the action if we agree that it's the right thing to do, where "right" means "improves Misplaced Pages." That is what "Ignore all rules" means. --] 14:30, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

:::::Do you see what the consequence of that is for "alternative views"? It means they are eliminated because a majority of Wiki editors "agree" that they are extremist or fringe. The only defence against that is de-particularized rules such that consistency of approach is required across differently particularized situations; that binds the whim of the majority creating some space for sound but unpopular views to given credibility.] (]) 21:51, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

::::::This is the logic I often see on Wiki. ==> Statements must be backed up by citations. Citations must be from reliable sources. But everyone knows that Fringe Topic ABC does not exist. Therefore, any citation claiming evidence for the existence of Fringe Topic ABC must be from an unreliable source, and therefore may not be used to support a statement. Delete unreliable source. Now all statements claiming evidence for the existence of Fringe Topic ABC are unsupported, and must be removed. Delete evidentiary statement. Since there is no remaining evidence, propose that Fringe Topic ABC be deleted. QED.

::::::It follows the rules, but it's circular at the core. It involves enough steps that an aggressive Wiki-lawyer can hide the circularity behind a smoke screen of validity from all but the most dedicated of editors who has time and open mind enough to wade through pages of discussion. Anyone with a life probably doesn't have that kind of time. --] (]) 23:36, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

:::::::This is why you have to change the policy that renders a source "unreliable" simply because it not mainstream. There is no logical connection between how popular a source is and how objectively reliable it is. That's why this whole "alternative views" project is not going anywhere. Proposing "ignore all rules" is not going to work, or shouldn't work.] (]) 04:08, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

==Terrance McKenna's ] in danger of backdoor deletion==
A group of editors has proposed that the article ] be replaced with a REDIRECT. The article has been in existence since 2004 and has survived 4 attempts at AFD; I feel the redirect proposal is a way of circumventing Misplaced Pages process as it does not require discussion by the wider Misplaced Pages community as an AFD or Merge would. I has set up an RFC to discuss the propriety of using REDIRECT in this way see ]. In the long term we need to set a precedent that replacing an established article with a REDIRECT requires as wide a consultaion as a merge or deletion. The article is already tagged as within the scope of the Alternative views project; contributions to the RFC would be welcome , go to ]. ] (]) 13:30, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
:There's been some confusion - looks like an AfD for an article on 'Novelty Theory' was the one being called the first AfD - it was merged into Timewave Zero which already existed. The first 2 AfDs resulted in Keep, the 3rd resulted in No Consensus. I think it is 6 editors vs Lumos3 at the moment, hence presumably Lumos3's posting here and elsewhere to recruit support. ] (]) 15:17, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
::Replacing a page with a redirect is not as serious as deleting it because it can be easily undone. Of course, it's not that easy if every time you try someone undoes what you have done. I think it makes sense for this to be a separate article linked to from ] since this gives space for the arguments for and against to be placed near each other. As it is, the 2012 article just has a brief summary of arguments against several of the theories but that section doesn't mention ''timewave zero''. I think this is an example of people having unnecessarily high standards in terms of notability. ] (]) 16:33, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

== 2012 ==

For anyone interested, there's a discussion currently in play over at ] (recently renamed from ]) about what should be the most appropriate name for this article, with its scope covering various 2012-related speculations/predictions/theorising/phenomena. Arguments for/against various current title proposals are at ] and ], and there's an open poll at ]. Contribs & thoughts welcomed.--]<font color="#DAA520"> <span title="Pronunciation in IPA" class="IPA">ʘ</span> </font><small>'']''</small> 03:58, 4 September 2009 (UTC)


== Popular pages == == Popular pages ==


Greetings, Today I submitted a "Protected edit request" to the Popular pages config file. The November bot process has moved past "Alternative views" so the next update will be for December 2024. The request is to change from ''Alternative Views'' to "Alternative views". Regards, ] (]) 14:45, 4 November 2024 (UTC)
I have requested a list of popular pages for this project at . --] (]) 15:47, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
:{{complete2}} - ] (]) 15:24, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

== ] ==

Hi. The article ] is in need of serious help. It was in an abandoned state and discussed for deletion, however I feel it has strong ] to become a useful list. But it needs lots of help and collaboration. Is someone of you interested? --]] 23:41, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

== ] ==

Hello! HIV dissent is being changed to a forward for AIDS denialism. HIV dissent is about those who question the practices used in HIV research. It is not about AIDS denialism (HIV and AIDS are not the same thing), nor is it about HIV denialism (denialism isn't actually a word anyway). I believe that HIV dissent qualifies as an "Alternative View" not traditionally accepted by the mainstream. AIDS denialism is widely accepted by the masses, particularly in regard to the political issues in Africa. <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 04:26, 3 November 2009 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
: I believe this is forum shopping and canvassing. I also believe the redirect is correct, as this is a POV fork of both AIDS denialism and HIV that doesn't use ], and the consensus seems to agree. <span style="font-family:Papyrus">] <small>]</small></span> 13:49, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

:: This is the Alternative Views page. HIV dissent falls under alternative views. AIDS denialism is not an alternative view, but mainstream. The idea of asking others involved in alternative views to review the issue with HIV dissent id not canvasing, or forum shopping. To imply otherwise is a form of strong arming, or threatening, others into maintaining a biased viewpoint simply because you feel enough threats and intimidation will make someone go away. It won't. Furthermore, you cannot reach a consensus in 24 hours. Give it time for others to weigh in on the article before declaring a consensus, as very few have contributed. ] (]) 14:02, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

:::AIDS denialism is mainstream? How does that work. I agree with Verbal that the subjects of these two articles are just variations on the same theme. The main difference is the point of view. Some of the stuff from the old "disent" article could go into the denialism article, once checked for POV.
:::That said, not sure if denialism is the best word. I raised the issue of the word denial above (see my later comments on ]), although I wasn't aware that there was an article on ] at the time. ] (]) 17:50, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

== Pageview stats ==


After a recent request, I added WikiProject Alternative Views to the list of projects to compile monthly pageview stats for. The data is the same used by http://stats.grok.se/en/ but the program is different, and includes the aggregate views from all redirects to each page. The stats are at ].

The page will be updated monthly with new data. The edits aren't marked as bot edits, so they will show up in watchlists. You can view more results, request a new project be added to the list, or request a configuration change for this project using the ]. If you have any comments or suggestions, please let me know. Thanks! <font face="Broadway">]]</font> 00:52, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

== You should really have the Sun orbiting the Earth on your logo ==

/discuss <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 17:24, 18 December 2009 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Anarchism at GAH ==

] has been nominated for Good Article status. I have assessed it and placed in on hold so that some points I have raised can be dealt with. I see the article has this project's tag, so am informing people here. My comments are at ].--] (]) 16:03, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

== WP 1.0 bot announcement ==

This message is being sent to each WikiProject that participates in the ]. On '''Saturday, January 23, 2010''', the ] will be upgraded. Your project does not need to take any action, but the appearance of your project's ] will change. The upgrade will make many new, optional features available to all WikiProjects. Additional information is available at the ]. &mdash;&nbsp;Carl <small>(]&nbsp;·&nbsp;])</small> 02:31, 22 January 2010 (UTC)


== Request for comment on Biographies of living people==

Hello Wikiproject! Currently there is a discussion which will decide whether wikipedia will delete 49,000 articles about a living person without references, here:

]

Since biographies of living people covers so many topics, many wikiproject topics will be effected.

The two opposing positions which have the most support is:
# '''supports''' the deletion of unreferenced articles about a living person, ]
# '''opposes''' the deletion of unreferenced articles about a living person, except in limited circumstances, ]

Comments are welcome. Keep in mind that by default, editor's comments are hidden. Simply press edit next to the section to add your comment.

Please keep in mind that at this point, it seems that editors support deleting unreferenced BLP articles if they are not sourced, so your project may want to source these articles as soon as possible. See the next, message, which may help.

===Tools to help your project with unreferenced Biographies of living people===
;List of cleanup articles for your project
If you don't already have this and are interested in creating a list of articles which need cleanup for your wikiproject see: ] A list of examples is ]

;Moving unreferenced blp articles to a special "]"
If you are interested in moving unreferenced blp articles that your project covers, to a special "incubation page", contact me, ]

;Watchlisting all unreferenced articles
If you are interested in watchlisting all of the unreferenced articles once you install Cleanup_listings, contact me, ]

] 05:29, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

== RfC: Proposed new section "Alternative medicine as mainstream" ==

Please comment and help create a consensus version at ''']'''. Thanks. -- ] (]) 15:09, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

== RfC: Context of NSF statement about belief in ghosts ==

Announcing an RfC at ]. The questions being discussed are:

1. Whether the ] is a reliable source for stating that "belief in ghosts and spirits" are "] beliefs".

2. Whether their expressions can be considered to represent the current scientific consensus (in the USA) on that subject.

See you there! -- ] (]) 17:06, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

==AfD:Reverse scientific method==
Please, go make your voice heard in the discussion ]! ] dixit. (]!) 12:59, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

== Announcement of RfC at ] regarding use of ] wikilinks ==

Please weigh in there. This is just an announcement. -- ] (]) 05:03, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

==Field Influence Telepathy Report==

"Pharmaceutical Telepathy and the Human Biofield", March 2010

] (]) 17:34, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

== Defining news organisations ==

Hi, I am trying to start a debate about defining what news organisations, as a reliable source, are good for and/or not good for. It is not as clearly defined as other similar reliable sources policies and it should be. Please see ] <font size="2" face="Impact">~ ].].]</font> 19:08, 25 March 2010 (UTC)

== Unbiased Reporting of Political Issues in the context of Climate Change ==

I wish to express concern at the bias presented towards those who are not in favour of current 'accepted' popular climate change theories, and particularly towards the pages related to Climate Change and Global Warming. While there are arguments both for and against climate change, and on these I will not take a stance in this respect, but it is abundantly obvious that the page in question could be considered to be propaganda. My primary argument for this, is that all images on such pages only provide information which is consistant with the view of climate change lobbyists, whereas if, for example one was to compare levels of atmospheric carbon from the end of the Permian period to today, one would discover that during the Permian period, instead of 300ppm from today, it was closer to 3000ppm.

For an indicator of my claim to bias, a majority of the article on Climate Change Skepticism, details groups whose interest it was in to discredit climate change. Further indicators are found throughout pages of books published about such topics as "The Myth of Climate Change" one such case being the book Heaven and Earth, where more of the article about the book is taken up by criticisms leveled at it and how, in the eyes of the press and the ever elusive, completely consenual group that in this areticle are referred to as Scientists, in the entire section titles Receptions from scientists, only remarks made in a negative light have been shown (bar one which is entirely neutral), and if one cares to look within the scientific community one may discover a range of other viewpoints, as opposed to a collection of mathematicians, astronomers, astrobiologists and geographers. While I am not defending the book in question, I merely state that given a large enough group of people, there are bound to be differing views found within, as opposed to the concept portrayed within the article of a single unanimous viewpoint.

In Conclusion, the purpose of wikipedia is to allow a user to gain knowledge. Knowledge should be objective and not subject to bias. In such examples as is found here, instead of informing the viewer, it instead supports one viewpoint in favour of another.<span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 13:05, April 24, 2010</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP -->

:This project is not in place to counter biases as such, but to develop and systematize articles about such topics and their protagonists. __] (]) 17:02, 24 April 2010 (UTC)

:: The climate of the Permian Period is covered, not too surprisingly, in the article ]. More depth of coverage, from reliable scientific sources of course, is always welcome. ] (=] ) 17:59, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
==Review of draft article requested==

I have completed a new draft of ], a problematic article about a minority viewpoint. I see that the article is assessed as High Importance here at this project, so I would sincerely appreciate input from some uninvolved editors who would be willing to review the article for its overall structure and format, as well as any NPOV or WEIGHT issues that have not been addressed.

Does the article progression make sense? How about the section heads? Are the in-text attributions handled properly? Are there any major issues that jump out at you?

<u>Here is the latest draft that I am requesting comments on</u>: ]. Please leave comments here or on my talk page. Thanks.] (]) 17:44, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

==1421: The Year China Discovered the World==
FYI, {{noredirect|1421: The Year China Discovered the World}} has been controversially merged into ]. An RfC has been opened on the issue, see ]

] (]) 03:09, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

== WikiProject Transcendental Meditation movement ==

A WikiProject has been created, for the topic with main article: ]. The project page is located at ''']'''. Feel free to list yourself as a participant there. Thank you for your time, -- ''']''' (]) 19:24, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

== Confirmation bias is now a Featured Article ==

], which is rated as high-importance for this wikiproject, has passed FAC. This brings the total number of FA-class Alternative Views articles to 3. ] (]) 11:58, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

== Alternative Views articles have been selected for the Misplaced Pages 0.8 release ==

Version 0.8 is a collection of Misplaced Pages articles selected by the ] for offline release on USB key, DVD and mobile phone. Articles were ], then article ''versions'' (revisionIDs) were chosen for trustworthiness (freedom from vandalism) using an adaptation of the ] algorithm.

We would like to ask you to review the . Selected articles are marked with a diamond symbol (&diams;) to the right of each article, and this symbol links to the selected version of each article. If you believe we have included or excluded articles inappropriately, please contact us at ''']''' with the details. You may wish to look at your WikiProject's and try to improve any that need work; if you do, please give us the new revisionID at ]. We would like to complete this consultation period by midnight UTC on Monday, October 11th.

We have greatly streamlined the process since the Version 0.7 release, so we aim to have the collection ready for distribution by the end of October, 2010. As a result, we are planning to distribute the collection much more widely, while continuing to work with groups such as ] and to extend the reach of Misplaced Pages worldwide. Please help us, with ]!

For the Misplaced Pages 1.0 editorial team, ] 00:08, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

== Alternative Views related Article nominated for deletion ==

The following article was nominated for deletion, ]. Since the article is part of this WikiProject, please feel free to raise your opinions in the AFD debate. ] (]) 08:32, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

== harmonic convergence ==

With all due respect to the spiritual side of "Harmonic Convergence" the generic English words "harmonic convergence" have importance in the semantics related to the development of hybrid electric bicycles which depend on harmonic convergence to balance human muscle/gear power with electrical motor power.

I suggest disambiguation or some other way to work around a "spiritual" meaning getting in the way of technology. Any suggestions? ] (]) 18:10, 3 October 2010 (UTC)Bobkiger

:I've reverted it. It's unsourced and not related to the article ]. You also signed it for some reason. To do anything with those two words you'd need a source. A dab page is for related articles. If you can find a source it might go in an article on bikes, but it needs a source using that phrase. ] (]) 18:30, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

==WikiProject cleanup listing ==

I have created together with ] a toolserver tool that shows a weekly-updated list of cleanup categories for WikiProjects, that can be used as a replacement for ] and this WikiProject is among those that are already included (because it is a member of ]). See ], or and . ] (]) 20:22, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

== Nomination of ] for deletion ==

<div class="floatleft" style="margin-bottom:0">]</div>A discussion has begun about whether the article ''']''', which is relevant to the subject of this WikiProject, should be ].

The article will be discussed at ] until a consensus is reached, and you are welcome to contribute to the discussion.

Thank you for your time, -- ''']''' (]) 18:02, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

== Assessment? ==

I notice that the ] article has not been assessed. How is that done and who does it? The article is currently in ] with plans to try for FA when that is completed. ] (]) 06:14, 10 December 2010 (UTC)
:Hello? Anybody here? >crickets< ] (]) 17:14, 11 December 2010 (UTC)
::Is this project dead? In any case it appears that the assessment and priority ratings of this project are meaningless, as no member has responded to requests for article review from me or previous editors. If that is so, we might as well delete the AV template from the article. ] (]) 19:58, 2 January 2011 (UTC)

:I propose to remove {{tl|WikiProject Alternative Views}} from ], and possibly also from ] and ], because it is just clutter and does not seem to be maintained. Thoughts? ] (]) 00:15, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

::Do it now. Tom asked three weeks ago, which seems unpromising even considering the holiday season. If the project remains comatose, we might ] it later—say February or so? ] | ] 02:12, 4 January 2011 (UTC).

:::I'm a project member who hasn't been very active on Misplaced Pages lately, but I do still check this page and others associated with the project. Sorry for not responding sooner. For the assessment aspect of the project, you might try ], the project member who originally added assessment parameters to the banner and who still edits regularly. I'll point him over here. ] (]) 05:46, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

==]==
{{tl|Fringe}} has been requested to be renamed, see ]. ] (]) 12:05, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

== WikiProject Dacia, subject Dacia and alternative views ==

Hi guys!

Great project idea!

I recently founded ] out of good faith and interest for the ] history. Unfortunately, the knowledge about the subject is scarce and the controversy is high. Not soon after the completion of the project structure, I came under attack and falsely accused of ]. One illustrative example is the conflict around the ], labeled as Protochronistic and fringe theory by some and proposed for ], although notable. The entire project is ] as well.

A large amount of attempts to calm the situation has been done from the project level:
* clarifying the scope
* clarifying the neutrality and position of the project
* invitations to the '']'' on various theories regarding Dacian language
* some of the invitations to use user space or project ] for high conflict articles, to avoid edit wars and prolong conflict

I would greatly value your input, as I am sure you are faced with similar situations.
Thanks a lot and best regards!
--] (]) 17:54, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

== Do not merge ] ==

Venus project has become a recognizable name. There has to be 100s of people like me who don't know when they are looking for "venus project" that it has an association with Fresco or Zeitgeist untill they discover it in one of the three sites. Links among the three is entirely appropriate. But disapperaing one of them into another one of them has to border on intellectual fraud. "Related" to each other does not mean "same" as each other!!! ] (]) 15:13, 11 February 2011 (UTC) John
:] says that certain subjects do not deserve articles. This is one of them. ] (]) 23:52, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

== Request for input in discussion forum ==

Given the closely linked subjects of the various religion, mythology, and philosophy groups, it seems to me that we might benefit from having some sort of regular topical discussion forum to discuss the relevant content. I have put together the beginnings of an outline for such discussion at ], and would very much appreciate the input of any interested editors. I am thinking that it might run over two months, the first of which would be to bring forward and discuss the current state of the content, and the second for perhaps some more focused discussion on what, if any, specific efforts might be taken in the near future. Any and all input is more than welcome. ] (])
<br /><br /><sub>Automated message by ] from ] at 15:44, 5 April 2011</sub>

== Nomination of ] for deletion ==

<div class="floatleft" style="margin-bottom:0">]</div>A discussion is taking place as to whether the article ''']''' is suitable for inclusion in Misplaced Pages according to ] or whether it should be ].

The article will be discussed at ] until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on good quality evidence, and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion template from the top of the article.--] (]) 18:00, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

== Hello ==

Don't you guys notice a reoccurring theme here...

Check the bottom all the references are from a government agency or the so called "4th branch of government" the media...

They are obviously hiding something. No sight of this happening in China?

Come on guys do your research. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 07:12, 31 December 2011 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Deletion review for ]. Input requested. ==

There's an interesting discussion going on at ] over whether an article about a prominent raw foods advocate and spiritual teacher should be created or continue being deleted. Of note, there is a controversial section in the article which has raised questions about BLP and RS issues. The subject also requested deletion of the prior article in an Afd. The topic definitely presents alternative view , so there may be areas where your WikiProject is relevant. I would appreciate any thoughtful comments or criticism, especially in the area of your speciality, the handling of alternative views in the article. Cheers, ]<sup> ]|]</sup> 17:52, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

== ] and related articles ==

There has been a long-standing dispute on the above article relating to some proposals, particularly by ] in his book ], and ], and his book '']'', regarding whether the sources named above qualify as fringe theories as per ]. I had some time ago recused myself from editing the content because of some accusations of falsifying sources. However, I believe that an independent review of all the relevant articles by knowledgeable, uninvolved, editors, would be very useful. Thank you for your attention. ] (]) 23:25, 26 March 2012 (UTC)
:Also, there does seem, at least to me, to be perhaps sufficient reason for a separate article on "Ebionite conspiracy theory", or some other similar title. Robert Eisenman, James Tabor, Barrie A. Wilson, Jeffrey Butz, Neil Asher Silberman, and maybe additional editors have all put forward in recent years some sort of proposals alleging that there was some sort of conspiracy in early Christianity, primarily led by Paul, to minimize the influence and attention given to James and the alleged original orthodox version of Christianity, which substantially differs from later Christianity. Wilson called the idea the "Jesus Cover-Up" in his book ''How Jesus became Christian.'' Some input regarding whether there is sufficient cause for a separate article on the idea would also be welcome. ] (]) 00:11, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

== ] ==

Can anyone from this project provide some insight into the discussion regarding ]. - ] (]) 09:12, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

== Proposed MOS for Religion ==

There is now a proposed general Manual of Style for Religion and other articles relating to ethoses or belief systems at ]. Any input would be welcome. I personally believe at least one of the reasons why many articles in this field have been as contentious as they have been is because of lack of such guidelines, and would very much welcome any input from others to help come up with some generally acceptable solutions to some of these problems. ] (]) 21:52, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

== Great Zimbabwe - Two rival theories? ==


Main article: ]

It could perhaps be argued that there are two 'rival' theories for the origin of the Ancient Zimbabwean Civilization (with its drystone temples and fortresses, and its extensive network of gold mines) - namely, the "Shona" theory, and the "Semitic" theory. The overwhelming majority of modern-day academics support the "Shona" theory - but if we include laymen, then the difference in numbers becomes much less.

During the 40 years since the publication of Robert Gayre's 1972 book supporting the "Semitic" theory, almost every article on the subject which has appeared in peer-reviewed journals, subscribes to the "Shona" theory.

Despite that, it is still not clear (at least, not to me) how exactly the "Shona" theory can be regarded as ''proven beyond all doubt'' - which is what most of its adherents claim. As far as I can make out, their principal arguments are based on oral traditions, and on the fact that Shona-style dwellings and artefacts were found in and around the various stone ruins.

However, there is an alternative possible scenario - whereby the original civilization was created by people of Semitic stock, but was later conquered and overrun by the Shona. Some of the original Semitic inhabitants could well have been absorbed into the Shona population, such that not all the Semitic skills and knowledge were lost. Thus, the archaeological evidence really needs to be re-examined to see whether or not it could still be consistent with that alternative hypothesis. --] (]) 19:26, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
::Looking at this with no understanding of the details, it sounds like what you describe as "rival" theories are not being treated by mainstream scholarship as "rivals"; but as one generally accepted theory and an alternative theory which causes controversy. So I'm supposing your concern is that the article allows coverage of the alternative? According to the polices on "fringe subjects" ]:
::{{Quotation|"an idea that is not broadly supported by scholarship in its field must not be given undue weight in an article about a mainstream idea... should not make it appear more notable than it is... and reliable sources must be cited that affirm the relationship of the marginal idea to the mainstream idea in a serious and substantial manner.}}
::These are policies that constrain all of us. I would interpret that to mean that some coverage can be given to the idea you describe as the "alternative possible scenario"; but it cannot be presented as an equally viable one. The article would need to be clear that Gayre's work has established the mainstream academic position, and give the alternative view as a minority opinion. That is, of course, if it is shown to have enough notability to have been discussed in reliable sources. Here's the policy that determines a ]. -- ] '''Δ''' <sup>]</sup> 20:03, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

:See also ]. If being in the article unduly legitimized the fringe theory, it can be omitted from the main article. When you say "the overwhelming majority" it sounds like omission applies here. ] (]) 18:34, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

::New evidence has recently emerged (namely, the Lemba genetic analyses) - which may now justify taking a fresh look at the topic. --] (]) 19:48, 14 July 2012 (UTC)

== Is this project dead? ==

I notice few members, and few of those are active in this project. WikiProject Rational Skepticism and WikiProject Paranormal, and specific projects such as wikiproject astrology etc already seem to cover much of the ground of this project. Is this project dead? Should it be marked as historical? There are about 4 members who appear to be currently active on wikipedia. ] (]) 22:59, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

:I haven't been active lately, but for what it's worth, I do still check back here. I think this project does have a role to play. WikiProject Rational Skepticism and WikiProject Paranormal seem to be more about views beyond the mainstream of science, whereas this project encompasses alternative views in every field, from the sciences to the humanities. ] (]) 06:10, 11 November 2012 (UTC)


== "]" listed at ] ==
== Discussion at RSN about ] ==
]
The redirect <span class="plainlinks"></span>&#32;to the article ] has been listed at ] to determine whether its use and function meets the ]. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at '''{{slink|Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 December 8#Conspiracism}}''' until a consensus is reached. <!-- Template:RFDNote --> ] (]) 17:13, 8 December 2024 (UTC)


== Good article reassessment for ] ==
There is a discussion at the reliable sources noticeboard about whether by ], professor emeritus of philosophy at Georgia State University, is a reliable source for the article on ] (1918–2007). Several editors have objected to it because Almeder published it in '']'', a journal that deals with anomalies (fringe issues). Uninvolved input would be very helpful. See ]. Many thanks, ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 19:21, 18 November 2012 (UTC)
] has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the ]. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. ] (]) 00:01, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 00:01, 18 January 2025

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Request for Comment at Talk:Historicity of the Book of Mormon

There is a RfC at Talk:Historicity of the Book of Mormon § RfC on category inclusion/exclusion as to whether Historicity of the Book of Mormon should to be included in the "pseudohistory" category. ––FormalDude talk 06:09, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

Proposed merge at Talk:Sexual orientation change efforts

I have proposed merging the article Sexual orientation change efforts into Conversion therapy, which are of interest to this WikiProject.

You are invited join the discussion at Talk:Sexual orientation change efforts § Proposed merge to Conversion therapy. Regards, RoxySaunders 🏳️‍⚧️ (talk · contribs) 17:27, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

Alaska Mental Health Enabling Act Featured article review

I have nominated Alaska Mental Health Enabling Act for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets the featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" in regards to the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:12, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

Project-independent quality assessments

Quality assessments are used by Misplaced Pages editors to rate the quality of articles in terms of completeness, organization, prose quality, sourcing, etc. Most wikiprojects follow the general guidelines at Misplaced Pages:Content assessment, but some have specialized assessment guidelines. A recent Village pump proposal was approved and has been implemented to add a |class= parameter to {{WikiProject banner shell}}, which can display a general quality assessment for an article, and to let project banner templates "inherit" this assessment.

No action is required if your wikiproject follows the standard assessment approach. Over time, quality assessments will be migrated up to {{WikiProject banner shell}}, and your project banner will automatically "inherit" any changes to the general assessments for the purpose of assigning categories.

However, if your project decides to "opt out" and follow a non-standard quality assessment approach, all you have to do is modify your wikiproject banner template to pass {{WPBannerMeta}} a new |QUALITY_CRITERIA=custom parameter. If this is done, changes to the general quality assessment will be ignored, and your project-level assessment will be displayed and used to create categories, as at present. Aymatth2 (talk) 13:49, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

Proposed move discussion - 2022 Peruvian political crisis

Hello! A move request has been made for the 2022 Peruvian political crisis article. To broaden the involvement of users, you have been invited to review the discussion and provide your thoughts. Thank you! WMrapids (talk) 02:03, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

RM Re: October surprise conspiracy theory

There is currently a discussion as to how to retitle the page October surprise conspiracy theory, which is part of this WikiProject. A prior RFC closed with a consensus to change the name of the page, but those supporting the change were roughly split between two options: 1980 October surprise theory and 1980 October surprise allegations. In a follow-up discussion, the vast majority of editors said that they would prefer either name, but a few expressed an opinion for just one or the other. As such, we are seeking wider community input. Thanks for reading!--Jerome Frank Disciple 22:14, 20 June 2023 (UTC)

RFC regarding the life-extension practices of Bryan Johnson

There is a discussion at this talk page as to whether or not the life-extension practices of Bryan Johnson (entrepreneur) should be mentioned in the article. Given that it is what he is most known for by the general public and media, I feel as though it would be violating both WP:notability and WP:NPOV to not include it, as long as his practices are described neutrally. The other editor feels as though it is too fringe to include and that it cannot be properly contextualized. We would appreciate if others could give their input. Thanks!Vontheri (talk) 05:17, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

FAR for Voluntary Human Extinction Movement

I have nominated Voluntary Human Extinction Movement for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets the featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" in regards to the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Hog Farm Talk 03:39, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

New Sabu disk article

FYI, I recently created the Sabu disk page via translation from the German one. I had to remove some of the content about alternative theories due to the translation tool's filter (accurately imo) flagging a source as WP:NOTRS. Exobiotic 💬 ✒️ 15:52, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

This would make a great Did You Know! Thriley (talk) 16:00, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Rfc - Richard D. Gill and Kate Shemirani

There's an ongoing RfC at Talk:Richard D. Gill#Rfc - Kate Shemirani radio show appearance of relevance to this project. Structuralists (talk) 21:16, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Where is Kate?#Requested move 21 March 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Where is Kate?#Requested move 21 March 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. RodRabelo7 (talk) 21:59, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Postmodernism (international relations)#Requested move 13 April 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Postmodernism (international relations)#Requested move 13 April 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Wikiexplorationandhelping (talk) 02:48, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Wikiproject

Would anyone be interested in joining a sub project of WP:Anthropology on oral tradition? WP's coverage of this is quite poor atm imo Kowal2701 (talk) 17:16, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

Expert needed: Gerard Gertoux

This newly mainspaced relatively extensive article deals significantly with a religious and linguistic topic from an alternative viewpoint, and might need to be looked at by members of this project to ensure that the alternative view presented is treated fairly, proportionately, and without bias, in the context of the entire encyclopedia. The article could have elements of a WP:POVFORK. Please take a look at the content to see if there are any major issues. The talk page discussion is at Talk:Gerard Gertoux#Requires editing. Thank you—Alalch E.

Popular pages

Greetings, Today I submitted a "Protected edit request" here to the Popular pages config file. The November bot process has moved past "Alternative views" so the next update will be for December 2024. The request is to change from Alternative Views to "Alternative views". Regards, JoeNMLC (talk) 14:45, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

 Completed - JoeNMLC (talk) 15:24, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

"Conspiracism" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Conspiracism to the article Conspiracy theory#Conspiracism has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 December 8 § Conspiracism until a consensus is reached. 67.209.128.24 (talk) 17:13, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

Good article reassessment for Periyar

Periyar has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. Z1720 (talk) 00:01, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

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