| Revision as of 16:27, 14 June 2012 editNorth8000 (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users, New page reviewers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers84,844 edits →Consensus← Previous edit |
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{{WikiProject Barack Obama|importance=top}} |
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== Bills signed into law == |
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Continued updating: |
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* , March 31, 2011. Extension of the Airport and Airway Trust Fund, including taxes on aviation fuel, domestic and international ticket taxes, and taxes on cargo shipped by air. Extend Airport Improvement Program (AIP). The FAA has been operating under a series of temporary extensions. |
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* , April 14, 2011. This is the spending bill negotiated behind-the-scenes by congressional leaders and the Obama Administration. It would keep the government funded until the end of the 2011 fiscal year while cutting $38 billion in spending authority below 2010 levels. The Congressional Budget Office estimates it will lead to an increase in outlays of $3.3 billion over 2010 levels. All federal departments besides the Department of Defense and Veterans Affairs would face cuts under the bill. |
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== Notability and inclusion == |
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I noticed that one incorrect standard (notability) has been used to exclude material from this article. In Misplaced Pages, notability is a requirement for existence of articles, not for inclusion of material in articles. The primary standard that applies for the types of inclusion/exclusion debates occurring there is wp:npov including wp:undue. <font color ="#0000cc">''North8000''</font> (]) 22:37, 11 March 2012 (UTC) |
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:Notability is a perfectly acceptable standard for inclusion or exclusion, just not the '']''. One could say, for example, that something isn't notable enough to satisfy ]. -- ] (]) 11:57, 12 March 2012 (UTC) |
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::In the above you/they were implying that it is wikipedia standard for inclusion, which is incorrect. Further, notability has a specific meaning in wikipedia, wp:notability, and it is certainly not correct to invoke that as a standard for exclusion of material. And, from the looks of this article, who lot of excluding has been done, basically the whole other half of the story. <font color ="#0000cc">''North8000''</font> (]) 12:15, 12 March 2012 (UTC) |
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:::If a story gets very little media coverage, it isn't notable. Covering it would constitute a violation of ]. I use the word "notable" for convenience, and I shall continue to do so if I wish. I can see from your last comment that your ''real'' objection is about what you think is missing from the ''content'' of this article, and that you brought up notability for ]. -- ] (]) 12:32, 12 March 2012 (UTC) |
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::::Well, your substitution of IBF (inventing bad faith) for WP:AGF misfired into a baseless insult, linking to wiki-lawyering. At least it's clear what plane you operate on. Regarding use/non use of the term by you, I think that the clarification I posted will help resolve the issue either way. <font color ="#0000cc">''North8000''</font> (]) 14:52, 12 March 2012 (UTC) |
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:::::You basically said in your earlier comment that "notability" was the reason only "half the story" was featured in the content of this article. The implication is that you think the dozens of editors who have worked on this article over the years have not followed ]. Perhaps if ''that'' comment hadn't been so insulting to all those editors, I would not have needed to point out your apparent agenda on this talk page. If you have anything ''useful'' to contribute to the improvement of this article, please do so. Otherwise, please play elsewhere. -- ] (]) 15:50, 12 March 2012 (UTC) |
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::::::That's a complete scrambling of what I said. What I essentially saiod was: 1. Implying that notability is a criteria for inclusion / exclusion of material is not proper. 2. bsereving that the article is missing 1/2 of the story. On your last point, saying that 1/2 is missing is not "insulting" everybody who has done anything here. To clarify, for the folks that built the half that IS here, good work. For the folks that worked to keep out the missing 1/2, not so good work. <font color ="#0000cc">''North8000''</font> (]) 17:59, 12 March 2012 (UTC) |
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:It's a common Misplaced Pages colloquialism, not a misuse of anything. We certainly can and do use standards like the nature and extent of coverage of an item, as well as its appropriateness and relevance to the subject of the article, to decide whether a particular verifiable fact merits inclusion in the article. Different editors arrive at the point of ] along different paths, some invoking ] (itself an important context but used here outside of its strict context) and ], and others describing a matter as encyclopedic or not. To avoid confusion I personally describe the concept as "noteworthiness" to avoid any implication that I've misread ], a question of whether a particular fact is worth noting in an article as evidenced by how reliable sources treat it in connection with the subject matter. Anyway, this is a terminology issue not a content issue. If the question is whether it's worth pointing out that some people are disappointed / critical / observe / etc., that Obama's campaign promises having to do with government transparency do not at this point seem to have come to fruition, then yes, I think it is worth a very brief mention in the context of discussing the issue of transparency. However, the "he broke his promises" thing cannot be stated neutrally about any politician as fact, as that kind of thing is campaign rhetoric and not historical account. If the rhetoric rises to the level where it makes a difference, then it can be mentioned in campaign articles. - ] (]) 16:54, 12 March 2012 (UTC) |
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== Undue? Not. == |
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This was removed as UNDUE and "not supported": |
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{{quotation|Journalist ] interviewed ] for his 2011 book, '']''. Dunn said, "This place would be in court for a hostile workplace because it actually fit all of the classic legal requirements for a genuinely hostile workplace to women."}} |
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UNDUE? Hardly. This was ''extensively'' covered by ABC, CNN, WaPo... Need I go on? Most of these outlets are firmly in the tank for Obama. "Not supported"? Huh? It's basically a quote. Anyway, '''''the Vice President of the United States responded to it!''''' On the record!!!!! Biden said: {{quotation|"Obviously, they didn’t talk to Michelle Obama or Jill Biden. Because if there’s sexism in the White House, the person engaging in it is in trouble.” -- Joe Biden.}} This is not some administration mouthpiece: this is the '''''Vice President of the United States'''''--only a heartbeat from the Oval Office. <p>Hey Wikidemon--why don't we just forego the part where you start throwing out irrelevant WP policy shortcuts for the next several days, and skip right to the part where my position prevails and the content is readded. Wuddya think? – ] <sup>(])</sup> 21:27, 15 May 2012 (UTC) |
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:Reading the sentence "Most of these outlets are firmly in the tank for Obama" makes me question your intentions. Check your personal biases at the door. As to the specifics of this, is this one person's opinion sufficient for due weight? What's the purpose of including this? I'm unconvinced. – ] (]) 21:51, 15 May 2012 (UTC) |
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::I doubt asking Lionel to be unbiased is going to lead use anywhere. I will point out that Anita Dunn denied making that accusation, and the Washington Post (of the one portion Suskind would let the Post listen to). {{quote|“I remember once I told Valerie that, I said '''if it weren’t for the president''', this place would be in court for a hostile workplace”}} |
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::Also, Christina Romer denied making the statement Suskind attributed to her, and is :{{quote|“I can’t imagine that I ever said (that)....What was different in the Obama administration is that there were so many women in important positions and, when problems arose, the president worked hard to fix them. I felt respected, included and useful to the team.”}} |
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::So no, the text Lionel added should not be included in the article. One could question just why Suskind left out certain portions of the quotes, but that probably belongs his article, or that of the book. ] (]) 23:54, 15 May 2012 (UTC) |
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:::Are you saying the item should be excluded because it is not true?– ] <sup>(])</sup> 02:45, 17 May 2012 (UTC) |
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== UNDUE? Has to be a mistake == |
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{{main|Solyndra loan controversy}} |
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The Solyndra loan controversy is an alleged political controversy involving U.S. President Barack Obama's ]'s authorization of a $535 million ] to ] Corporation in 2009 as part of a program to spur alternative energy growth.<ref name="ABC Aug 31, 2011">, ABC News, August 31, 2011</ref><ref>, Reason, September 9, 2011</ref> Solyndra and the White House had originally estimated that this government guarantee of Solyndra's financing would help to create 4,000 new jobs.<ref name="ABC Aug 31, 2011"/> In early September 2011 the company ceased all business activity, filed for ] ], and laid off nearly all of its employees.<ref>{{cite news |url=http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/Solyndra-Shutting-Down-128802718.html |title=Solyndra to Declare Bankruptcy |publisher=NBC News |date=September 2, 2011 |first=Scott |last=McGrew}}</ref><ref>. ''Bloomberg Businessweek''. Retrieved: September 20, 2011.</ref> |
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{{Reflist}} |
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----- |
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Scjessey removed the above saying that it is WP:UNDUE. I can't believe that he's trotting out ''that'' policy again! It has to be a mistake. We have '''''an entire article''''' on this. There are '''''hundreds''''' of reliable sources about this. He's blocking even a '''''brief mention'''''??????? Surely Scjessey meant to use WP:IDONTLIKE, because WP:UNDUE obviously doesn't apply. Would you like to try another policy? What about NPOV? BLP? NOTNEWSPAPER? I don't think you're gonna get nuch traction from UNDUE.– ] <sup>(])</sup> 23:33, 21 May 2012 (UTC) |
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:Authorizing a $535 million loan guarantee to a company that later goes bankrupt does not appear to be a significant event in the Presidency of Barack Obama. However, it is a notable event and political controversy in and of itself, and as such has its own article. There are thousands (probably) of articles on subjects related to Obama and the Obama administration, and obviously we can't have a paragraph on each in any given article. Similarly, there are hundreds of millions of pages and hundreds of thousands of recent news articles about Obama, so not every subject about which a thousand articles are written gets on the main Obama page. We all know this is a partisan issue, with Obama's opponents using it as part of an effort to discredit him. Most of the recent coverage is about Solyndra as a campaign issue, not the underlying events. Is that effort a significant one vis-a-vis the overall weight of his Presidency? One could argue it both ways but on balance I would say no, there are dozens if not hundreds of comparably important items. On the other hand, if there were a passage about similar issues it might merit a partial sentence somewhere. - ] (]) 01:01, 22 May 2012 (UTC) |
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::See... ''I told you it was WP:IDONTLIKE!!!'' – ] <sup>(])</sup> 03:07, 22 May 2012 (UTC) |
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:::It's not that at all. Wikidemon is absolutely correct. The so-called "Solyndra controversy" is only controversial when viewed through the lens of a campaign. America ''needs'' to invest in sustainable and renewable energy, but this particular investment didn't pan out. Other similar investments have been successful. That's the nature of business. -- ] (]) 12:31, 22 May 2012 (UTC) |
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::::With Obama himself having repeatedly touted Solyndra, it's hard to see how you can argue that it is ] to mention it here.] (]) 16:43, 28 May 2012 (UTC) |
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:::::Because it barely registers on the importance meter when considering the totality of Obama's presidency. Seriously, this is only of significance in the right wing echo chamber. A Google News search of "solyndra" yields 6,000 hits. Remove "fox" and "blog" from that search, and the number drops to only 3,000. Further pruning of right-wing sources reduces it to a mere handful. It's another fauxtroversy, dude. -- ] (]) 19:21, 28 May 2012 (UTC) |
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::::::In trying to exclude this you are inventing a standard that does not exist in Misplaced Pages. And what a double standard is being pushed! Laws which are passed by the House and Senate (which do not report to him) and which he merely signed are listed in the article. But then an agence that is not only a part of his administration but which reports to him does this ill-fated loan and you pretende that it isn't germane beacuse it was doen by "somebody else". On top of that RS's cover that he was directly involved in in it, including pushing to expedite approval. <font color ="#0000cc">''North8000''</font> (]) 20:41, 28 May 2012 (UTC) |
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== Should the Solyndra controversy be included? == |
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{{rfc|pol|rfcid=D10F39A}} |
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<div style="background-color: #EEFFE6; border: 0px solid LightSlateGray; padding: 5px;"> |
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{{main|Solyndra loan controversy}} |
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The Solyndra loan controversy is an alleged political controversy involving U.S. President Barack Obama's ]'s authorization of a $535 million ] to ] Corporation in 2009 as part of a program to spur alternative energy growth.<ref name="ABC Aug 31, 2011">, ABC News, August 31, 2011</ref><ref>, Reason, September 9, 2011</ref> Solyndra and the White House had originally estimated that this government guarantee of Solyndra's financing would help to create 4,000 new jobs.<ref name="ABC Aug 31, 2011"/> In early September 2011 the company ceased all business activity, filed for ] ], and laid off nearly all of its employees.<ref>{{cite news |url=http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/Solyndra-Shutting-Down-128802718.html |title=Solyndra to Declare Bankruptcy |publisher=NBC News |date=September 2, 2011 |first=Scott |last=McGrew}}</ref><ref>. ''Bloomberg Businessweek''. Retrieved: September 20, 2011.</ref> |
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;References |
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{{Reflist}} |
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</div> |
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Arguments for exclusion of this content are not persuasive to say the least. Afterall, the controversy is notable, extensively covered in reliable sources and obviously relevant. But alas Misplaced Pages operates on voting, not quality of argument, and it's 2 against 1. <p>I am looking for '''"<u>outside input</u>"''' (per WP:RFC) to determine whether this content should be included or excluded.– ] <sup>(])</sup> 04:44, 24 May 2012 (UTC) |
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<!--please comment in the discussion section below--> |
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===Discussion=== |
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* - ] (]) 06:42, 24 May 2012 (UTC) |
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:<small>'''Note''': While all editors may participate, an RFC is a process for requesting ].</small>– ] <sup>(])</sup> 08:09, 24 May 2012 (UTC) |
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:: - ] (]) 09:25, 24 May 2012 (UTC) |
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:::<small><i>apparently nobody is taking this proposal and RfC very seriously after 24 hours so I'll remove my own comments here.</small></i> |
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*Of course it should be covered here. Large scale, immensely covered in sources, and as an action by and controversy of his presidency. How could this possibly even be in question? <font color ="#0000cc">''North8000''</font> (]) 09:18, 24 May 2012 (UTC) |
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*'''Include''' per ]. <small><span style="border:1px solid black;padding:1px;">]]</span></small> 12:10, 25 May 2012 (UTC) |
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*Much has been made of this ''fauxtroversy'' by the right, but it has had ''zero'' impact on Obama's presidency. Hard to see how it could possibly be included in light of ]. -- ] (]) 13:06, 25 May 2012 (UTC) |
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:<small>'''Note''': While all editors may participate, an RFC is a process for requesting ].</small>– ] <sup>(])</sup> 02:43, 26 May 2012 (UTC) |
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:::Did you read the policy that you linked to? What you just said directly conflicts with it. Per policy weight is determined by coverage in sources. <font color ="#0000cc">''North8000''</font> (]) 21:52, 25 May 2012 (UTC) |
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::::With 18,000+ edits to Misplaced Pages, I'm intimately familiar with policy. The Solyndra fauxtroversy has received minimal coverage ''except'' in the right wing echo chamber. And since it's an outgrowth of a ''Bush'' administration policy, it isn't even an Obama-specific fauxtroversy. -- ] (]) 23:26, 25 May 2012 (UTC) |
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:::::With almost 20,000 edits to Misplaced Pages, I'm also intimately familiar with policy. The ideology and political inclination of sources of sources is irrelevant. Whether content comes from the "right wing echo chamber" or whether it comes from the Socialist Party USA, if it is covered in reliable sources it is a candidate for inclusion. This is not just policy--it is a ]. – ] <sup>(])</sup> 02:36, 26 May 2012 (UTC) |
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::::::Point one - that's a spurious argument. Nobody's challenged the material's verifiability. The objection is undue weight. Simply counting news reports this is a minor issue as compared with the overall coverage of the president. Among reliable sources I don't see that conservative news outlets are any more apt to cover this than anyone else. 60 of the 19,700 Fox News archive pieces that mention Obama also mention Solyndra, .3%. 20 out of 11,700 NPR news articles do the same, .2%. At CNN it's 21 out of 14,000, about .15%. Where you see the difference is the unreliable sources. At Huffington Post, .2%. At Breitbart, 42%. That's the echo chamber. Point two, an RFC is a consensus process in which everyone gets to participate. It's not an end run around the editors - ] (]) 07:51, 26 May 2012 (UTC) |
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*Reject as proposed but include in some form. The current wording fails per ], ] and ], and for mischaracterizing a political argument as an economic policy consideration. Here we have an event that resonated with the partisan media and became a minor talking point for Obama's detractors and opponents, and got modest but real coverage among the mainstream press. To the extent the press covered it in connection with Obama's presidency, it is mostly in the context of it being something the other team is using to embarrass him and impugn his integrity. That attempt was somewhat successful, and part of a larger campaign (both grassroots and organized) against federal stimulus spending. As such, a brief (perhaps half a sentence but definitely not a paragraph or article section) mention would be in order in the context of growing partisan opposition and public disenchantment with economic stimulus spending, which is indeed a significant issue in the presidency but not yet covered in this article. - ] (]) 22:10, 25 May 2012 (UTC) |
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::Demon -- do you have a suggested wording? What parts of Lionel's proposal do you find objectional? ] (]) 22:30, 29 May 2012 (UTC) |
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:::Thanks for asking. I'll try to come up with something in the next few days. - ] (]) 01:33, 30 May 2012 (UTC) |
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::::Okay, here it is. I'll post it here first to get some feedback rather than prematurely munging up the RfC process: |
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:::::''The failure of solar panel maker Solyndra, which had been championed by the Obama administration and backed by $535 million in federal loan guarantees, became a focus point for growing Republican opposition to federal economic stimulus and energy subsidy policies.'' |
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::::Some of Lionel's text and sourcing could also be included to explain this more fully, just not a whole section heading. It would go in chronological order at the bottom of the economic policy section, which incidentally does not seem to cover anything that happened since late 2010. I approached this with an open mind, knowing little about the subject before digging into the news coverage. A couple surprises for me. First, per the "fact check" source, this loan guarantee was ''not'' initiated during the Bush administration. Second, per polling results the affair did not erode public support for energy subsidies or economic stimulus. Those programs did stall, in Washington gridlock. Neutrality issues aside, the article could use a wake-up, it seems to be in hibernation. - ] (]) 22:41, 31 May 2012 (UTC) |
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:::::Going through some differences one by one: |
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::::::Number of jobs. I agree with your exclusion of the information. It's not the core of the story. |
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::::::Link to main article. I think it should be linked. Let the user get more information if they want to. |
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::::::"Growing Republican opposition" -- how about just "growing opposition." It's true that large parts of the opposition are republican, but not all of it, e.g. Jon Stewart. |
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::::::Linked news articles -- I think the Reason crony capitalism link should be there. "Crony capitalism" has been a part of the Solyndra story -- but not the center of it. Linking to a story on it, without putting it into the main article, seems about right.] (]) 14:35, 1 June 2012 (UTC) |
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:::::::I agree about the main article link. I tried hard to source that the opposition was general, but the sources (as exemplified by the Financial Times piece and a bunch of articles about polls) said otherwise, that Solyndra became an issue for Republicans opposing the President, not part of a broader disenfranchisement with stimulus or energy subsidies (crony or otherwise). Maybe I didn't look hard enough. Are any nonpartisans, or liberals beyond Jon Stewart, singing in the chorus? I do think that so-called crony capitalism (a loaded term if there ever was one) is at the heart why an administration promoted a company without first making sure it was financially sound. The Reason Magazine article is an editorial analysis that stands for something quite different than the title ("Obama's Crony Capitalism") suggests. As it says, "The Solyndra story encapsulates a much bigger issue than mere crony capitalism": namely that government meddling in energy policy distorts the free market and invites corruption. That's a libertarian / free market critique. - ] (]) 15:52, 1 June 2012 (UTC) |
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::::::::After looking through the sources, I am astonished that I was unable to find any Dem/liberal criticism of it beyond Jon Stewart. So I can accept "Republican Criticism". I still think that Reason is a good link. The libertarian argument is made elsewhere as well. .] (]) 20:38, 1 June 2012 (UTC) |
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What rabbit hole have we jumped down here? In the Mitt Romney article they even covered that he had his dog ride on the roof of a car for a few hours 29 years ago. And here folks are trying to keep out a prominent,, widely covered mistake that lost over $500,000,000 of the taxpayer's money? <font color ="#0000cc">''North8000''</font> (]) 11:32, 26 May 2012 (UTC) |
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:What? First of all, what some other article has in it has nothing to do with what goes into this article. Nothing. Secondly, there is a huge difference in the comparison you're making. I don't believe I would have advocated inserting the dog incident into the Romney article, but that was a decision Romney made, and not a decision most rational thinking dog owners would make. The loan process was initiated in 2005, and the President, or rather the Government, approve these types of loans all the time. The fact that the company went bankrupt isn't tied to any decision made by the Obama Administration. Right? Lastly, to be honest, I wasn't going to comment in this RFC because I didn't know enough about the subject to state whether this should be included or not. But the arguments here persuaded me to do some research, so I'm going to object to the current wording and inclusion. I do not like the biased manner it was inserted by Lionel(]) and I do not like North8000's reasoning. There is definitely an ] issue here, and this issue already has it's own article. I may be persuaded by more neutral wording from Wikidemon, but I have not seen such that I would believe deserves inclusion into this article. ] (]) 14:58, 26 May 2012 (UTC) |
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::Solyndra should not be added because Seamus was included in Romney's article. It should be included because the coverage in RS linking Obama and Solyndra is overwhelming, compelling and exhaustive. It requires an enormous disassociation with reality to argue otherwise. <p>However the inclusion of Seamus and the bizarre objections to Solyndra does in fact highlight the undeniable double-standard at Misplaced Pages. Adding insult to injury is that the BLP policy requires a very high bar for inclusion! And still the dog got in. This content has no BLP implications! No matter how many RS support content, it will be suppressed if it is detrimental to liberal causes. – ] <sup>(])</sup> 03:33, 27 May 2012 (UTC) |
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:::Yes my comparison to the dog incident was more to point out what has been happening here, and the double standards being applied to Obama and Romney articles. Basically the "Re-Elect Obama" folks working these articles outnumber the "Elect Romney" folks working them and that is being used to determine article content. Great way to make an encyclopedia. Of course the 29 year old dog ride incident is not the reason for inclusion of Solyndra. I first came here from a noticeboard where it was pointed out that at this article a group of people was essentially using their numbers to override wp:npov. When I first came here even my talk page comments pointing out the problem were deleted via warring. <font color ="#0000cc">''North8000''</font> (]) 10:08, 27 May 2012 (UTC) |
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* '''Oppose'''. Space is an issue here, and I don't think you can justify several sentences for Solyndra when more significant policies get little or no attention in this article. Cash for Clunkers was a much larger program (six times larger), and more it was more successful, but there's only a link to the legislation. The automotive bailout was at least 100 times larger, and there's no mention of it. It also likely saved many more jobs than Solyndra lost. Even ARRA only has a few sentences. I don't see why we should devote space to an economically minor issue when much more important policies are given short shrift. I also object to the proposed text as POV. It reads as "Obama poured all this money into a company and said it would create jobs, but it went bankrupt everyone lost their jobs." Some investments go bad. This doesn't make scandal. (I realize there are other scandalous aspects of the story, but they aren't mentioned).--] (]) 05:27, 29 May 2012 (UTC) |
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:*Space ''is not'' an issue. This is not a paper encyclopedia. Red herring argument is rejected. – ] <sup>(])</sup> 01:33, 30 May 2012 (UTC) |
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::] is an issue. Sure, paper doesn't matter--that's why its fine to have a ] article--but article length does matter and this article is already approaching the upper bounds of recommended length. Meanwhile, it gives little or not treatment to issues I identified as more significant(You're free to argue otherwise, but you've summarily dismissed my comment). The article still needs to cover the rest of this term and very likely a second one. I don't see a justification for giving a minor issue undue weight given the need to add more to this article at present and in the future.--] (]) 02:44, 30 May 2012 (UTC) |
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:::And "what if" he can't get anything done due to GOP resistance and he doesn't have a "rest of this term?" And "what if" Mitt wins? (have you looked at Obama's polling?) No. We write what we have now. And if necessary use ]. We don't write an article based on speculation about the future--especially when we're talking about the reelection chances of Obama. There is absolutely no reason to WP:CENSOR this article. The Solyndra incident has just too much coverage in RS to make any rational argument against inclusion. – ] <sup>(])</sup> 03:16, 30 May 2012 (UTC) |
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::::We don't write articles based on what ifs. ]. --] (]) 04:17, 30 May 2012 (UTC) |
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*'''Oppose/Exclude''' - It's ]. No one is going to look back at this 50 years from now and say "Gee... That whole Solyndra thing played a defining roles in BO's presidency". It's also ]. Sure there might be dozens of sources covering Solyndra's relationship to BO. There are hundreds that covering BO's relationship to Bo the dog. Should we include the dog in this article too? ] (]) 19:22, 29 May 2012 (UTC) |
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:::Per wp:npov, "played a defining role" is not the criteria that determines inclusion/exclusion, including due/undue. Coverage in sources does. <font color ="#0000cc">''North8000''</font> (]) 19:37, 29 May 2012 (UTC) |
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::::Coverage makes it notable. A great volume of coverage, when compared to other topics related to the subject, makes it ]. Fact is, google testings yields 4,500 hits. Which makes it only slightly more popular than the . ] (]) 20:23, 29 May 2012 (UTC) |
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:::::And most of those hits are from blogs, Fox, Drudge, Newsmax, etc. -- ] (]) 20:34, 29 May 2012 (UTC) |
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:::::WP:Notability is the standard for existence of a separate article, not inclusion of material within an article. The relevant standard for inclusion in a case like this is wp:npov which essentiall/roughly say that coverage (not notability) is the criteria. Sincerely, <font color ="#0000cc">''North8000''</font> (]) 20:36, 29 May 2012 (UTC) |
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::::::Nobody quoted ]. ] (part of ]) is relevant here. You've tried this argument in an earlier section of this talk page already. When someone keeps banging on about the same thing while ignoring the consensus, it's called being ]. Please stop it and move on. -- ] (]) 20:42, 29 May 2012 (UTC) |
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:::::::Quit that nasty BS/crap in the last three sentences in your post. My posts are nothing of the sort. You are trying to imply that notability is a requirement for inclusion of this material and I am telling that such is not correct. And even if there was a consensus to exclude that, that can't override wp:npov. And you are quoting wp:npov/wp:undue implying that it supports your desire to exclude the material, but in fact it does the opposite. That was the noted problem situaiotn with this article at the noticeboard which originally brought me here, implying that (alleged or actual) "consensus" can override wp:npov. It can't. <font color ="#0000cc">''North8000''</font> (]) 21:03, 29 May 2012 (UTC) |
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::::::::Where did I (or anyone, for that matter) imply that ] applies to this issue? And how have you managed to pervert the meaning of ] to actually ''support'' your claim that this fauxtroversy is of significance when considering the ''entire'' Obama presidency? You need to take a step back and gain some perspective. -- ] (]) 21:30, 29 May 2012 (UTC) |
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:::::@<font color ="#0000cc">''North8000''</font> - re ''"coverage (not notability) is the criteria"'' - That's obviously sheninigans. Do you know how much "coverage" there is out there regarding Obama? We can't add it all. If ]/] is grounds for exclusion, what is? How do we decide what minutia doesn't go in? ] (]) 23:18, 29 May 2012 (UTC) |
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::::::Yes, Solyndra will be relevant in 50 years. In any event, WP:RECENTISM is only an essay and we need a policy with a little more consensus to exclude content. And NickCT, your statement "We can't add it all" smacks of other-stuff-exists. We're only discussing '''''Solyndra.''''' WP:NOTABLE does not apply to article content--it only applies to AFDs. – ] <sup>(])</sup> 01:40, 30 May 2012 (UTC) |
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:::::::@] - ''"Solyndra will be relevant in 50 years."'' - Oh come on.... Really? Watergate. Bay of Pigs. Monica Lewinsky. Iran Contra. These were major scandals which will remain notable over time. Solyndra ain't on par with those. |
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:::::::All I'm hearing are rationales for why content should be included. There has to be some policy that prevents trivia from cluttering major articles. Just answer one question : How do we decide what minutia doesn't go in? ] (]) 14:20, 30 May 2012 (UTC) |
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*'''Support''' inclusion in some form. No opinion on whether or not Lionel's proposed wording is optimal.] (]) 22:32, 29 May 2012 (UTC) |
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*'''Oppose''' same as NickCT--] (]) 01:15, 30 May 2012 (UTC) |
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*'''Exclude''' per ]. No actual accusations of wrong doing have been leveled nor is there any evidence of such. It's not even being called "Solyndra-Gate". Nothing to see here but typical political silly season non-encyclopedic shenanigans. {{mdash}}] (]) 08:22, 30 May 2012 (UTC) |
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:*There is no policy requiring content to be accusatory; nor that it be named "something-gate". Is this in WP:UNDUE? Because I didn't see it. – ] <sup>(])</sup> 04:09, 2 June 2012 (UTC) |
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::*Cool...except I did not claim anything of the sort. Are you sure you posted your robo-answer in the right spot? {{mdash}}] (]) 23:47, 2 June 2012 (UTC) |
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:::*Yeah, I'm sure.– ] <sup>(])</sup> 03:38, 3 June 2012 (UTC) |
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*'''Include''' because it is ]! There is already a dispute on the main ] ]; a neutral administrator should take a good look at both discussions, and merge that article with this one, and it should appropriately goes under the '']'' section. —] (]) 18:32, 30 May 2012 (UTC) |
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*'''Exclude''' per ] and ]. Any discussion of Solyndra would have to include the performance of the rest of the loans made under that program, which would show you that Solyndra is an outlier. Insisting on including an outlier to score political points violates ]. ] (]) 23:26, 31 May 2012 (UTC) |
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:*What about the <u>enormous</u> coverage of Solyndra in '''reliable sources'''? I guess the <u>sheer magnitude</u> of the coverage doesn't count, right? – ] <sup>(])</sup> 04:09, 2 June 2012 (UTC) |
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*'''Comment''': I am trying to assume good faith, but Wikidemon you are making it very difficult. Right after the RFC was certified you were one of the first editors to voice support. Then, when you thought the RFC wsn't gong anywhere, you conveniently ''removed your support'' when you realized ''if noone else comments Solyndra would be added based on your !vote.'' Nice way to cover all of your bases. Now you've just removed the POV tag, when here you state that this is a POV issue. I could be, let's say harsh about your conduct, but for now all I'll say is that the community expects consistency from its veteran editors. – ] <sup>(])</sup> 23:48, 31 May 2012 (UTC) |
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**You've been accusing editors here of bad faith here for several weeks now, so I'll ignore the rhetorical flourish. I removed my comment, commented again, and removed the POV tag for the exact reasons I stated, so no need to imagine some ulterior motive. It's allowed to be on the fence about a proposal, review it with an open mind, be convinced by the stronger argument, and insist on collaboration. Having reviewed the sources, it's a close call but there is enough there to establish due weight, and relevancy to Obama's presidency in the context of the politics of the stimulus package. That may reflect poorly on Obama, but so what? We're not here to praise or criticize a politician, but to explain subjects to readers in an encyclopedic way. That describes my position and approach here, which is how I think we're supposed to edit articles. We've got an RfC here, which is probably overkill for a single issue, but here we are. If consensus forms around adding the content it will be added, if it does not form it will not be added. A POV tag does nothing to help that, and is a disservice to the reader. It's only if you view the content and editors here through a pro-Obama versus anti-Obama lens that you can could see an editor favoring anti-Obama stuff sometimes and opposing it others as game-playing. It's a POV issue exactly because you made it one. You've stated several times that the article should have more negative material, and that both the article and its editors are editing out of bias, deliberately, by rejecting various items that happen to mirror anti-Obama talking points. You say you will counter the bias you perceive in the article by deliberately adding negative stuff. That's something you're bringing to the table, an approach that runs against collaboration and good editing practice. I was going to ask you to self-revert the POV tag but another editor already did that. I don't think a POV tag will get very far per , the most recent discussion on the subject at the main Obama article. If you are seeking a content outcome, sparring about behavior and edit warring over process are going to make consensus a lot less likely. - ] (]) 00:54, 1 June 2012 (UTC) |
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* '''NO VOTE NECESSARY''' - This is a heated topic to discuss especially in an election year. It is clear from many of the comments contained on this page which side of the fence many of you sit. Keep in mind that “Misplaced Pages operates on voting” is not entirely true (see ). Misplaced Pages operates on consensus which should not be confused with voting. If voting was the only thing taken into consideration, each person could vote along their own personal lines of belief (left or right) and the majority would rule. |
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:With that in mind, it is good to step away from our own personal beliefs (as Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, not a place to express our own political points of view). It is also not about ] so allowing other’s comments to run without debating them with our personal points of view is only harmful to the discussion (debating them with logical arguments based on Misplaced Pages policies is more helpful). |
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:Now, looking at this outside of the political realm, there are a couple of questions that need to be answered in order to decide if the content should be included: |
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:1. Is the information notable? |
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:Misplaced Pages states that there must be “significant coverage” in “reliable sources” that are “independent of the subject.” If this is the case, it is presumed notable. The fact that it is being debated so heavily makes it notable; however, take into consideration that this topic has passed notability guidelines for a stand-alone article, and as such it is clear and undisputed that the topic is notable. |
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:2. Should the information be included in THIS particular article? |
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:In order to determine the answer to this question, we need to look at other similar articles. ] has similar “controversy” information tied to his administration (see the sub articles for each term of office) as does ] and ]. As this topic (]) is tied to his presidency and there is plenty of independent reliable sources tying this to his presidency, it should be included in the article. |
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:3. If the information is applicable to the article, can it be written in an unbiased matter to reflect the ] guidelines? |
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:In order to make this happen, I would suggest reviewing the ] and have a Rfc about the specific wording to be used in the aritlce. If a consensus cannot be reached, then take the topic to ] for suggestions. Final Note – I see that many people are using as an argument to exclude; however, keep in mind that this does not deal with the issue of who believes if his administration is involved with the controversy or not. It deals with the fact that it should represent ALL SIGNIFICANT VIEWPOINTS. The only viewpoint to consider is if it is tied to his administration, not if you agree or disagree with the topic. As NPOV seems to be the most common argument here, I would strongly suggest going to the Noticeboard if a consensus cannot be reached on the wording to contain within the article.--] (]) 13:49, 1 June 2012 (UTC) |
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::There are a couple fundamental flaws in that analysis. First, consensus is ''always'' necessary, as the opposite basically comes down to "I'm right and you're wrong". Second, it's not true by a longshot that every matter that is both notable and relevant to a subject gets covered in the main article about the subject. The issue we're grappling with is whether a criticism or controversy (or a talking point or smear) becomes part of a description of a politician's term in office merely because the opposition drums up a fuss over it. The answer across the encyclopedia, generally, has been no, and we have conventions like ] and ] to explain that. If we did that, histories of governments would be long litanies of the opposition's obstructionist tactics. Here, the job of the politician isn't just to be elected but to govern. Whereas the daily news sources feed on the back and forth of partisan rivalries, we're covering the horse here, not the race. Whether the material goes primarily into the hierarchy of articles about governance, or the articles about politicking and campaigning, rests on whether this is a real issue affecting the running of the nation, or it is more of a political diversion. How high up and how prominently we cover it is a question of due weight. - ] (]) 15:29, 1 June 2012 (UTC) |
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:::I think that the political articles have fallen into bias by voting, via a double application of standards. The top level Romney article we have coverage that his dog rode in a cage on the roof 29 years ago. At the top level Tea Party article, we can't get rid of huge section on a twitter comment by a low level guy, or that somebody suspects that his BBQ grill got damaged by an unknown TP'er. , removals being blocked by solemn arguments of "it's covered in RS's, any attempt to remove is an attempted coverup etc.". Folks of the same political persuasion at this article make it so that even to get in a 1/2 $Billion dollar mistake which Obama was directly involved in which was extensively covered by sources requires immense man-hours in an RFC. No wonder this article is so lopsided! <font color ="#0000cc">''North8000''</font> (]) 19:15, 1 June 2012 (UTC) |
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:::::Thank you. That is one of my main points exactly. Politics needs to be set aside. When a political argument develops, many people will grab at straws to support their point of view. What should happen is that we look at the straws (the Misplaced Pages guidelines) and base our views (the article contents - unbiased of course) on that. What I mean is that we cannot look at whether or not we "personally" want to include the information based on our beliefs and then pull up whatever Misplaced Pages policy supports our view. We need to know the different Misplaced Pages guidelines and then determine if this information should be included based on those guidelines. There are policies that would support both arguments (if you simply pick and choose which policy suits each person's point of view); however, by looking at similar pages you can see that there is a consensus for similar articles that this type of information (in some form) should be included. That is why I strongly suggest that this go to the ]. The discussion on this page seems to be getting off topic on whether or not the content should be included. The arguments are leaning too much towards discussion the political lines that each person supports. This is the opposite of what it should be as Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia and not a political debate venue. Just my thoughts. --] (]) 19:29, 1 June 2012 (UTC) |
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::::::Agree, we should check those biases at the door; we have a job to do here. <font color ="#0000cc">''North8000''</font> (]) 19:49, 1 June 2012 (UTC) |
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:::::::If there is a problem with those other articles, ''go and fix '''them'''''. Just because those articles have been edited to a lower standard doesn't mean this article needs to be dragged down to the same level. -- ] (]) 20:16, 1 June 2012 (UTC) |
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::::::::I gave those as examples to establish some perspective for THIS article, to show far off base the "exlude due to weight" arguments given here are. <font color ="#0000cc">''North8000''</font> (]) 21:10, 1 June 2012 (UTC) |
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:::::::::But as I said, about a ''million times'', each article is '''independent''' so using other articles as "perspective" is absolutely ''irrelevant''. My head is getting sore from bashing it up against the wall. -- ] (]) 15:02, 2 June 2012 (UTC) |
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Also, political "baiting" such as on my talk page only goes to show why this issue should go to ]. If anyone wants to know my political points of view, ask me outside of Misplaced Pages. --] (]) 19:42, 1 June 2012 (UTC) |
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*'''Oppose'''. No impact or notability within his presidency, just the usual election year pushing.] (]) 00:53, 2 June 2012 (UTC) |
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:*WP:N applies to whether or not an article is kept/deleted. Doesn't apply to article content.– ] <sup>(])</sup> 04:09, 2 June 2012 (UTC) |
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::*TMCk didn't mention ]. The word "notability" is clearly being used to describe significance, which falls under the auspices of ]. -- ] (]) 15:02, 2 June 2012 (UTC) |
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:::*With all due, you have no idea what was going on in TMCK's mind. Many editors mistakenly cite the "notability" policy to support content inclusion. Please only speak for yourself--speaking for other editors is against policy--you should know better. – ] <sup>(])</sup> 23:18, 2 June 2012 (UTC) |
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::::*Advice to both editors - Cleankeeper's comment speaks for itself and its meaning is obvious, no need to advocate or embellish. - ] (]) 04:41, 3 June 2012 (UTC) |
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:::::*Fascinating. I phrased my reasoning clear and simple and yet I get words stuffed up my throat. Maybe leave out any fantasy interpretation and take my words just as they are. So no, I made no mistake at all!] (]) 14:25, 3 June 2012 (UTC) |
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*'''Include''' for a couple of pretty straightforward reasons. First of all, this isn't just ], where the information would be wildly inappropriate, this is ], and a pro-green jobs policy has been widely reported as one of his positions. Second, this event occurred ''during'' his presidency, as a result of his policy decisions based on his green jobs platform, and has been widely covered in dozens, if not hundreds, of reliable sources as such. Talking about his high school prom would be inappropriate for this article, but not the results of his presidential decisions. Also, this was a story in 2011; it's not something that's just coming up for the election. <B>—]</B> <sup>]</sup><sub style="margin-left:-3.5ex;">]</sub> 02:48, 2 June 2012 (UTC) |
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*Include per torch. ] (]) 16:50, 4 June 2012 (UTC) |
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*'''Include''' There are plenty of reliable sources for this controversy, but that doesn't appear to be the problem with this discussion. It's about whether of not the controversy is notable enough for the article. Everyone seems to have an opinion on notability. I would only go so far to say that as far as this article goes, the controversy, if written neutrally and include at least one successful use of the stimulus money, can and should be included. Notability doesn't need to be lasting, but it does need to have an impact. The impact is obvious, which is why I believe some on this thread are attempting to keep this information out of the article, usually hiding behind wikipedia policies and guidelines.--] ]</font> 03:33, 6 June 2012 (UTC) |
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* '''Exclude'''. Per ], ] and ].<br/>There are currently five paragraphs in the "Policies / Economy" section of this article.<br/>They discuss the entire U.S. economy.<br/>They mention programs involving hundreds of billions or trillions of dollars.<br/>They discuss the loss, then gain of millions of jobs<br/>A paragraph about the Solyndra bankruptcy—or half a billion dollars in federal loans to Solyndra—or the loss of 1,100 jobs—does not belong in this section, nor anywhere else in this article.<br/><br/>This article does not link to articles created and written by ]<br/><u>''before''</u> he was permanently <span class="plainlinks"></span> from editing Wikpedia:<br/>• ]<br/>• ]<br/>• ]<br/>• ]<br/>• ]<br/><br/>This article should not link to articles created and written by sockpuppets of ] :<br/>• ]<br/>• ]<br/>• ]<br/>• ]<br/>• ]<br/>• ]<br/>• ]<br/><u>''after''</u> he was permanently <span class="plainlinks"></span> from editing Wikpedia:<br/>• ]<br/>• ]<br/><br/>''If'' ''(])'' Solyndra becomes a major theme of the ], it may merit a brief mention in that article.<br/>] (]) 14:07, 6 June 2012 (UTC) |
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*'''Oppose inclusion''' - Yet another attempt to attach a fringe controversy to a presidential campaign, nothing we don't see a million times during the political silly season. This article has been a notable haunt of Grundle for years. ] (]) 19:26, 6 June 2012 (UTC) |
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===Proposed wording=== |
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Per a discussion between me and ] above and on my talk page, here's a proposal to get the ball rolling on a mention of Solyndra that's of fairly moderate ], in the context of growing opposition to the stimulus / subsidy policies of the early years of the presidency. This isn't meant to be an up / down vote, but a starting point: if we are to agree this should be in the article, how to do it in the most relevant, informative way? (Links are inline for ease of discussion; feel free to make changes / edits) - ] (]) 17:43, 4 June 2012 (UTC) |
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:::''The failure of solar panel maker Solyndra, which had been championed by the Obama administration and backed by $535 million in federal loan guarantees, became a ] amidst growing conservative opposition to federal economic stimulus and energy subsidy policies.'' |
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::or... |
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:::''The failure of ], a solar panel maker backed by $535 million in federal loan guarantees as part of the ], was ] by Republicans attempting to undermine the Obama administration.'' |
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::-- ] (]) 18:16, 4 June 2012 (UTC) |
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:::'''Comment''' A few of the points Demon and I worked through to get this far. We felt that the number of jobs created was not the heart of the story and should not be included. We have some wording that does bring up the issue that is, we both feel, relatively non-partisan. Yet we do link to some rather critical (of Obama and of the policy) stories, so that information is available to the reader, if he or she wants to go there. ] (]) 01:44, 5 June 2012 (UTC) |
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::::The problem with that is that we don't provide otherwise non-RS links simply to "make the information available." That goes against some of the core principals of Misplaced Pages. Inline citations are for references only (and must follow ], ] and ]), and external links are to be used very, very sparingly. Generally they just go to official websites of the subject and highly reliable general interest articles about the subject to give a little more depth. They're never used to counter-weight the article with praise or criticism or to "get the information out there." --] (]) 14:41, 5 June 2012 (UTC) |
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:::'''Comment''' If mention is warranted, it should be brief and neutral, something along the lines of the first one above. I'm not sure if this is the correct article, though. Really, it's primarily a campaign issue (as Romney has made it a focus of his campaign) and is noteworthy only because of criticism by the opposition. The criticism did not follow a "scandal" in the press, the criticism is the scandal. But this article is about the noteworthy things that the administration ''did'', not the things that supporters or opponents ''said about'' them. Absent the criticism, this is no more notable than the Master Lock factory or any of the so-called success stories which Obama touts. --] (]) 15:07, 5 June 2012 (UTC) |
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::::Investment in private companies as part of a government program or a stimulus package is normal and happens in every administration. Most of these businesses are successful but some inevitably fail. As governor, Romney invested millions in Massachusetts funds into solar companies and two of ''them'' have failed. All the controversy over Solyndra arose because of Republicans trying to exploit this ''particular'' failure for political gain, so really it's a matter for campaign-related articles. I would not support any inclusion, no matter how neutrally-worded, because it would be both inappropriate and undue weight. -- ] (]) 16:24, 5 June 2012 (UTC) |
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:::::We can address Romney's doings in the Romney article, right? News is the business of covering important exceptional events. If there's a one-week transit strike, news reports don't devote 51/52 of their coverage to the weeks when the workers showed up as usual. We follow the coverage, and this particular event arguably did get significant coverage in the context of Obama's administration. Indeed, it is a campaign issue and should appear in the campaign article(s). It can also fairly be covered in this article, both as a campaign event (the most important campaign milestones are milestones in the presidency too) and as part of a sea change by which Obama was no longer able to get his stimulus and subsidy programs through Congress (which directly affects policy). Incidentally, the ''Reason'' article is chosen as a relatively sober and well reasoned statement of the conservative critique. We can and do sometimes choose opinion pieces in order to illustrate what those opinions are. It's not crucial, but that is an encyclopedic service to the reader, and it's backed by a direct cite for the proposition that there was partisan opposition.- ] (]) 19:42, 5 June 2012 (UTC) |
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::::::No, the Romney stuff I mentioned only to illustrate that this particular thing is a non-issue. It belongs in the campaign articles of both gentlemen, if anywhere, but ''this'' article is for material that ''defines'' Obama's presidency. I cannot agree that it has a place here. -- ] (]) 21:10, 5 June 2012 (UTC) |
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{{hat|Closing sock comments, ], etc. ]}} |
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:::'''Comment''' It should not mention what the Republicans said about it. This article is about Obama's presidency, not Republican politics. |
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:::A proper summary must include all of these facts from ]: |
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:::* Obama gave Solyndra a $535 million loan guarantee, and estimated it would create 4,000 new jobs |
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:::* Instead of creating 4,000 new jobs, the company went bankrupt, and taxpayers had to pay the $535 million |
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:::* High ranking Solyndra executives had made large donations to Obama's campaign, and Solyndra had spent a lot on lobbying |
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:::Those are the reasons this is notable. It's not about the Republicans reaction to it. Instead, it's about what Obama did. |
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:::I don't care how it's worded specifically, as long as all of those points are included. |
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:::] (]) 01:49, 5 June 2012 (UTC) |
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{{hab}} |
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===Consensus=== |
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Says ], "." Yes, it ''does'' require consensus, along with '''everything''' on Misplaced Pages. ''Outrageous''. -- ] (]) 18:24, 5 June 2012 (UTC) |
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:No it is not outrageous. The material is germane, has extensive coverage in sources; wp:npov dictates that it be included and not excluded. Even though it appears the is a consensus FOR inclusion, it does not require consensus to implement something clearly required by wp:npov. <font color ="#0000cc">''North8000''</font> (]) 18:47, 5 June 2012 (UTC) |
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::If you didn't know, ] is a sock of Grundle2600. The revert was correct as he's a ] user. --]]] 18:56, 5 June 2012 (UTC) |
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::What consensus are you seeing? There is definitely not a ] for inclusion that I am seeing. Quite the opposite in fact. And the ] issue should be used for exclusion, not inclusion. There are no accusations by any officials that the Obama Administration did anything wrong, there are many loans given by the government each year, and some fail. There is nothing to this, except for a campaign issue raised by detractors. If it becomes a bigger issue in the campaign, perhaps it should be included there. Right now, it's not even relevant enough for that. ] (]) 18:59, 5 June 2012 (UTC) |
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::North8000, if you're claiming that there is a consensus for you to repeatedly re-add the terrible edits of a banned sockpuppet, you're mistaken on so many levels. --] (]) 21:20, 5 June 2012 (UTC) |
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:::That's not what I said. In case the error was due to your computer display malfunctioning, here's an extra copy of what I DID say: The material is germane, has extensive coverage in sources; wp:npov dictates that it be included and not excluded. Even though it appears the is a consensus FOR inclusion, it does not require consensus to implement something clearly required by wp:npov. <font color ="#0000cc">''North8000''</font> (]) 11:31, 14 June 2012 (UTC) |
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::::This is a common error seen in new editors' understanding (or lack thereof) of ], rather rare to see it in an experienced one. NPOV is not achieved by simply balancing the good data with the bad criticisms. ] (]) 16:12, 14 June 2012 (UTC) |
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:::::Not sure what you meant, and it does not seem related to my comment which was above the coverage-based provisions established by wp:npov. While I believe the goal here has been the imbalance, (including trying to keep all controversies out) the correction prescribed by wp:npov (which I referred to) is based on coverage, not simple balance. <font color ="#0000cc">''North8000''</font> (]) 16:27, 14 June 2012 (UTC) |
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=== Protected === |
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Per the recent rapid edit war between multiple parties over the above issue, I have fully protected the article for one week. The admin that closes this RFC may lift the protection once the RFC has run its course and it is clear that edit warring will stop. --]''''']''''' 18:26, 5 June 2012 (UTC) |
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:Please consider unprotecting promptly, as there is no edit war. There were two related sock accounts followed by a single editor reverting the sock edits under claim (false in both cases) that consensus is both established and unnecessary. Please consider restricting those making disruptive edits, rather than allowing them to hold a relatively important article about a fast-moving subject hostage while we consider a request to add disputed content. That's the point of having the Obama articles under probation, a higher than usual standard for good behavior so that we can keep going. They're going to have to wait 30 days for the RfC to conclude as it is, best tell them to respect that instead of excluding the rest of us from normal editing. - ] (]) 19:32, 5 June 2012 (UTC) |
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:I was getting ready to post the same comments as Wikidemon. I would add that locking an article down because a banned sockpuppet was repeatedly reverted is simply rewarding the bad behavior. What will happen when the page protection expires? Will you lock it down again when the sockpuppet returns (as he always does). Please consider unprotecting this article immediately. --] (]) 21:24, 5 June 2012 (UTC) |
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:Agreed. Administrator efforts should be spent on finding ] hidey hole and dropping some napalm in it, not giving him what he wants. -- ] (]) 21:26, 5 June 2012 (UTC) |
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::You know that accusing North8000 of being a sockpuppet of Grundle is beyond the pale; I see no evidence that he is. --]''''']''''' 21:59, 5 June 2012 (UTC) |
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:::Who accused North8000 of being a sock account? - ] (]) 22:32, 5 June 2012 (UTC) |
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:::Jayron32, I don't believe anyone accused North8000 of being a sock of Grundle, in fact, I'm sure that he's not. But two (now blocked) Grundle socks added the same material that he always adds and were reverted both times. Then North8000 reverted the reversion (re-adding the sock's material) and was reverted by another editor. So, taking the sock out of the equation you have one addition and one revert. That's hardly an edit war and certainly not enough to warrant locking a page down. --] (]) 22:36, 5 June 2012 (UTC) |
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::::Agreed. North8000 is not a sock. He's just a sock ''enabler''. <code><nowiki></sarcasm></nowiki></code> -- ] (]) 23:06, 5 June 2012 (UTC) |
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:::::There has indeed been an ongoing problem with Grundle and some of the other socks fomenting dissent and edit wars among editors who swallow their bait in good faith, but really ought to know better. North8000 came to this article, by their own account from an NPOV noticeboard discussion. After the point was already made that the complaint was initiated by a Grundle sock. North2800 nevertheless joined the fray with their idiosyncratic interpretation of NPOV, and came to this page to complain and agitate. They've also edit warred nonconsensus changes (complaining in their edit summary that their own accusations of bad faith, over ] deletions of material contributed by yet another Grundle sock were in turn deleted as unhelpful). There's a bunch of other disruptive stuff, utterly not conducive to consensus editing and collaboration, differences pending if it ever comes to that. So yes, it is fair to say that North8000 is here to voice discontent at the urging of a sock. Grundle himself has not antagonized people or called them names, and is quite a courteous chap despite his his many uninvited appearances here. But he has suckered some people into causing trouble. - ] (]) 23:54, 5 June 2012 (UTC) |
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::The problem is that there are more said "hidey holes" than a ]. This includes a /12 range, a /13, a /15, a /16, two /17s, a /18, and two /20s. He's going to come back on another range, and it would be insane, even with someone with a banhammer like mine, to block them all. We know Grundle2600 is going to continue, and he knows it. Perhaps keeping him banned is not the answer. --] 21:48, 5 June 2012 (UTC) |
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:::Well if he were to be ''un''banned, ArbCom should attach the proviso that it's okay for everyone to treat him like shit if they wish. <code><nowiki></sarcasm></nowiki></code> -- ] (]) 23:06, 5 June 2012 (UTC) |
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::::I don't know anything about banned users or socks, but the material was beyond appropriate. <font color ="#0000cc">''North8000''</font> (]) 23:19, 5 June 2012 (UTC) |
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:::::Not really. Setting aside the various issues raised in prior discussion threads about the subject itself, the paragraph that you added back in was ridiculously non-NPOV, full of ], stated opinion as fact and contained factual inaccuracies. Further, it is standard policy to revert the edits of banned sockpuppets. You may not have realized you were aiding a sockpuppet when you did it, but your edit was still inappropriate, particularly given that it comes in the middle of the discussion and without consensus (you can't claim that you "don't need consensus" as you did in your edit summary, you ''always'' need consensus). --] (]) 23:30, 5 June 2012 (UTC) |
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::::::Your last sentence is not correct. You can't say that consensus is needed to add material which is mandated by wp:npov, which this article is in massive violation of. I know that people have been trying to assert that, and have probably been getting away with it at this article, which is probably how it got as bad as it is. I originally came here because such behavior was at a noticeboard, and I can see that it continues. Sincerley, <font color ="#0000cc">''North8000''</font> (]) 23:37, 5 June 2012 (UTC) |
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:::::::This is a complete non-issue. You absolutely must have consensus to add disputed material. You can't break ranks in the middle of an RfC to edit war on the theory that you're right, no matter what anyone else thinks. - ] (]) 23:54, 5 June 2012 (UTC) |
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:::::::(edit conflict) Sorry, North8000, you're incorrect. Consensus is ''always'' required. That's how Misplaced Pages works, and with good reason. Please read ] for further explanation on this. Additionally, see ]. As the editor seeking to add or restore material, the burden is on ''you'' to achieve consensus. So far you haven't done so and you're unlikely to if, instead of making coherent arguments for your position, you just keep repeatedly announcing that you don't need consensus because ] --] (]) 23:57, 5 June 2012 (UTC) |
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::::::::Since you are misstating what I said, so I can see we're not having a real conversation. I said that wp:npov dictates that it being in there. Germane, and immensely covered in sources. And you come back with the crap that the insertion basis was the ] crap. It is impossible to have an intelligent conversation with someone who is behaving in that manner. <font color ="#0000cc">''North8000''</font> (]) 01:36, 6 June 2012 (UTC) |
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:::::::::''Nothing'' dictates that content must be added to an article. Wikipedians tried hard, years ago, to agree on the standard for including article content and never got there. The closest they got is a set of principles, that articles should explain the subject in an encyclopedic manner to the interested lay reader, that they should consist of material that is sourced to be of due importance and relevancy to the subject of the article and why it is notable, and so on. One rule is that the article must be told from a neutral point of view. Interpreting all of these is a matter of consensus. You (North8000) say that NPOV demands that we include certain material for the reasons you state. Others say that NPOV demands we omit the material for various reasons they give. The only way of resolving a difference like that here is through the consensus process. The alternative isn't quite ILIKEIT but is something similar, IMRIGHTANDYOURWRONG. - ] (]) 03:47, 6 June 2012 (UTC) |
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:Alright. So I will be unprotecting this, under the following conditions: |
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:1) Anyone who adds any information about this topic while the RFC is active, and before consensus is determined may be blocked. |
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:2) Anyone who removes any information about this topic while the RFC is active, even if it was added in violation of #1, before consensus is determined may be blocked. |
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:3) Anyone who comes to my talk page, the talk page of another administrator, ANI, AN, any drama-board, or similar, to report anyone else or request that another person be sanctioned, may themselves be blocked. |
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:4) Anyone who complains that someone else deserves to be blocked for anything they do in regard to this issue, may themselves be blocked. |
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:Let me make this clear, there is not a single person involved in this matter whose behavior makes them appear to be in the right, regardless of where they stand. There will be no more bad acting with regard to this article by anyone, and that includes trying to get one's perceieved enemies blocked. Work it out like adults, here, on the talk page. The sniping, tattling, fighting, and silliness over this article has gone on long enough. Just quit it. --]''''']''''' 17:04, 6 June 2012 (UTC) |
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::The problem with that is that it ignores the central problem, which is that this article is a frequent target of a very disruptive sockpuppet, Grundle2600. You seem to be suggesting that his edits and the efforts to clean up his edits carry equal weight, as it this were a regular content dispute. Are you suggesting that when Grundle returns (which he will) you will block anyone who reverts him? Or that you will block anyone who reports his new socks? On what grounds would you block editors who are following policy and reporting or reverting a sockpuppet? --] (]) 17:14, 6 June 2012 (UTC) |
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:::I have suggested nothing of the sort. Look up the definition of the word "may". I never used the word "will". --]''''']''''' 17:58, 6 June 2012 (UTC) |
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::::No, that doesn't work. You seem to have trouble admitting a mistake? - ] (]) 18:02, 6 June 2012 (UTC) |
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:::::What mistake are you accusing me of? --]''''']''''' 18:14, 6 June 2012 (UTC) |
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::::::Of threatening to block people who are following policy and protecting an article from sockpuppets. That's clearly a mistake, and if you were to do so (regardless of whether it's a "may" or a "will"), it would be met with a very strong reaction by the community. As it is, the mere suggestion of it is a mistake as it will have a chilling effect on editors who are working in good faith to maintain the integrity of this article. The application of your threat would be a terrible, terrible mistake. --] (]) 18:54, 6 June 2012 (UTC) |
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:::::::I have never once said I would block anyone for any such thing. What I have told you to do is to not fight with other editors over the content of this article in the article space. What you should be doing is achieving consensus as part of the above RFC before adding or removing content. I have made no mention at all of sockpuppets. You brought that matter up. --]''''']''''' 19:18, 6 June 2012 (UTC) |
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::::::::I think it is pretty clear from the above discussion that (a) Jayron32 would take a dim view of any sort of edit warring, gaming, forum shopping and unnecessary drama, and (b) it doesn't extend to the usual business of Grundle2600 whack-a-mole. -- ] (]) 19:46, 6 June 2012 (UTC) |
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::::::::If it doesn't apply to sockpuppets, that should have been explicitly stated. And if you take the sockpuppet out of the equation, there's very little to get worked up about. Look back at the chain of events. You locked down this article in response to a series of reverts against the sockpuppet (and a single revert of an editor who re-added the sockpuppet's material for his own purposes). That was the first mistake, you misinterpreted that series of reverts against the sock as an edit-war. But then you doubled down. With the edit summary ''"Daddy's gonna tan some hides..."'' you announce that ''"Anyone who removes any information about this topic while the RFC is active, even if it was added in violation..."'' can be blocked. Or that ''"Anyone who comes to my talk page, the talk page of another administrator, ANI, AN, any drama-board, or similar, to report anyone else or request that another person be sanctioned, may themselves be blocked."'' That's ridiculous. We both know that you can't block an editor that is otherwise following ] and ] for going to other admins or bringing something up on noticeboards. Those admins and noticeboards can deal with it if it's frivolous. See, that's where these kind of threats are particularly dangerous. Less experienced editors will not know that you do not actually have any higher status or Sergeant-like authority, that you're not a cop, you're just a guy with a mop and bucket. How will they react to such threats? Most likely by leaving this article and this subject alone entirely for fear of being blocked just for "complaining." That's the chilling effect. Splitting hairs over "may" vs. "will" is irrelevant at that point. --] (]) 20:27, 6 June 2012 (UTC) |
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::::::::::Who exactly are you accusing of being a sock? You know, you can't keep playing the "Grundle card" every time someone disagrees with you. It gets old after so many years. It couldn't possibly be that more than one person on Earth, could actually hold a view opposite of your own, could it? If you suspect someone of sock puppetry , then file a report, otherwise you need to stop your tendentious attitude and start trying offer compromise solutions.] ]</font> 20:47, 6 June 2012 (UTC) |
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:::::::::::Indeed, Loonymonkey, which sock of Grundle are you currently having problems with? And, for the record, I took care of the most recent Grundle socks well before this was protected. I only protected the article when non-Grundle people started participating, ''and when people started reverting non-Grundle people''. The protection has nothing at all to do with Grundle. The Grundle issue was handled before this had to be protected. Wikidemon said he would rather that the edit war was dealt with through blocks rather than protection, you concurred, and then I removed the protection and said that I would block people for bad-faith editing. You then complained about that. So which is it: do you, Loonymonkey, want to be prevented from editing warring at this article through protecting it, or do you wish to be prevented from edit warring by being blocked? --]''''']''''' 20:53, 6 June 2012 (UTC) |
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:::::::::::: I haven't accused anyone of being a sock, I'm not sure where you got that. And I haven't been edit-warring, so it's odd that you would threaten to block me after simply stating my opinion. But I stand by that opinion and I'm allowed to state it. Threatening to block editors engaged in bad behavior is one thing, but the threat was far too broad and could easily be misinterpreted. I would consider clarifying it for less experienced editors. --] (]) 21:10, 6 June 2012 (UTC) |
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:::::::::::::If you have no intention of edit warring, don't know of any sockpuppet accounts that need blocking, and do not intend to use the noticeboards in bad faith to get people you disagree with into trouble, I don't understand what your problem is. Nothing you have done yet, and nothing you have expressed an interest in doing so far, would ever be something I would block you for. If, however, you started a) edit warring b) trying to find an admin to block someone who you were actively edit warring with c) trying to find an admin to block someone just so that you could revert their edits in order to sneakily edit war with them after they were blocked d) other means of gaming the system or forum shopping to attempt to gain the upper hand against people who you disagree with over the editing of this article over this specific RFC issue, then you may have a problem. You know what will never get you blocked? Calm, reasoned discussion on the talk page whereby you present evidence in a neutral manner that your particular version of the article should be the one shown to the public. As long you continue to do that, you're fine and in the clear. --]''''']''''' 21:18, 6 June 2012 (UTC) |
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::::::::::::::Thank you for the clarification, that's all I was asking for. Of course ''I'm'' in the clear. That was never a concern because I follow policy. As I said, I was concerned with clearing it up for everyone, particularly the less experienced editors who are trying to do right. I don't want them scared off from this (or any) article by a few overly-broad threats and a hostile tone. Honestly, I have no idea who you're referring to as having engaged in that behavior, it's not readily apparent from looking at this page and the individual edit histories, but it sounds like something that could have been handled on an individual basis, not by throwing accusations at everyone involved in this page. We're on the same side here, clearly this is just a series of misunderstandings that could have been diffused earlier. --] (]) 20:26, 7 June 2012 (UTC) |
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:Perhaps we're having a failure to communicate here. I am not advocating for anybody to be blocked. I used the word "restricting" - that's the fifth or sixth misreading of words on this page all around, so let's assume reasonableness here in addition to assuming good faith, rather than assuming everyone in the community is an adult child who needs to be rebuked and threatened. I'm saying that it's crucial to figure out where the problem lies and deal with those edits/editors directly without undue disruption to the rest of the community. In this case North8000 made an edit that was by any reasonable measure out of line. Not everybody here, not drama, but a single editor following some Grundle socks. They seem to be editing in good faith, and genuinely if incorrectly believe that they're entitled to do that, so one possible approach is to educate them authoritatively not to: (1) edit war (2) nonconsensus edits (3) in support of a sockpuppet (4) in the middle of an RfC on the subject. If naming or warning North8000 by name is too provocative, it's enough to say to everybody that they shouldn't add the material proposed in the RfC until the RfC reaches a conclusion. Nobody is playing a "Grundle card", Grundle has been very active here lately and we simply need to deal with it. Blocking the obvious Grundle socks is a sure first step but: (1) he'll surely be back, soon, and often, (2) not all of his socks are detected and blocked quickly, and (3) the discord he's created in the form of accusations, disputes, and edit wars takes some time to die down, particularly in case #2, but really ought to be kept in check per ]. The history of the Obama pages and Obama article probation is of illegitimate / fake editors, and perhaps a few hotheads, making life utterly miserable for the balance of the community, and administrative process giving troublemakers another venue to pile up yet more angst and inconvenience on the legitimate editors. Article probation, and the no-nonsense quick response that sometimes came with it, was a big improvement. As for mistakes, that's better to discuss on your talk page because it's off topic. The best give-and-take here is that we should bring concerns to your attention (or the nearest available administrator) if the community is having trouble dealing on its own, or matters that you may have missed, and you act in your experience and at your discretion. Right now there's no active disruption to stop so no need for any specific action. It really is just an RfC, though. Let it run, and let's try to avoid any edit wars or accusations against other editors. Hope this clarifies things. - ] (]) 22:58, 6 June 2012 (UTC) |
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::You have said nothing that I have disagreed with yet. Regarding your no-nonsense quick response, I did that. As soon as the first non-Grundle-related edits around this issue occured, the article was protected. And you disagreed about it instantly. My only point, indeed the only stipulation that I have on this matter, is that the only correct way to deal with this problem is to have a reasoned discussion whereby various parties make their case for their preferred version of the article, sit back patiently while others do the same, and then allow the RFC to run its course. One should not try any other method, '''at all''', to see that their prefered version gets shown to the public. There is absolutely no reason for people who are involved in this conflict to make any edit in the article space, in the positive or the negative, regarding this current RFC, until after the RFC has reached its conclusion. "He started it" is not an exemption to this. --]''''']''''' 23:14, 6 June 2012 (UTC) |
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:::Good! Thanks for clarifying. One slight difference. I'm proposing that we ''do'' include the material in the end, but out of process edits ought to be reverted until there's agreement. You'll find that anything else is a invites mischief. I'm pretty gun-shy about actually doing it, I usually just watch and comment about it on the talk page. We'll see in due course, if anyone is so brash. - ] (]) 00:12, 7 June 2012 (UTC) |
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'''Comment''' I received an RFC request on my page yesterday. After reviewing the above discussion and the sources (as well as doing some research on my own), I believe that the material in question represents a verifiable incident, but agree with Wikidemon that it is a minor controversy at best. I would suggest one or two sentences at most, something along these lines: |
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The solar panel maker Solyandra, became a point of controversy following its filing for Chapter 11 bankruptcy. The company received 535 million in federal loan guarantees as part of the ]. |
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Simple and to the point. ] (]) 22:46, 9 June 2012 (UTC) |
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{{hat|Closing likely sock comments, ], etc. ]}} |
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===Proposed text=== |
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I propose that the following text be added to this article: |
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In 2009 the Obama administration gave a $535 million loan guarantee to ], with the promise that it would create 4,000 new jobs. However, instead of creating those 4,000 new jobs, the company went bankrupt. It was later revealed that the company's shareholders and executives had made substantial donations to Obama's campaign, that the company had spent a large sum of money on lobbying, and that Solyndra executives had had many meetings with White House officials.<ref>, Los Angeles Times, September 16, 2011</ref><ref>, New York Times, September 16, 2011</ref><ref>, The Daily Caller, September 1, 2011</ref><ref>, ABC News, August 31, 2011</ref><ref>, Reason, September 9, 2011</ref> |
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It was also revealed that the Obama administration had already been aware of Solyndra's financial troubles. For example, according to the company's security filings in 2009, the company had been selling its product for less than the cost of production.<ref>, Wall St. Journal, September 16, 2011</ref> |
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In September 2011, federal agents visited the homes of Brian Harrison, the company's CEO, and Chris Gronet, the company's founder, to examine computer files and documents.<ref>, ABC News, September 8, 2011</ref> Also in September 2011, the ] launched an investigation.<ref>, ABC News, September 8, 2011</ref> |
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On September 13, 2011, the Washington Post reported on emails which showed that the Obama administration had tried to rush federal reviewers to approve the loan so Vice President ] could announce it at a September 2009 groundbreaking for the company’s factory. The company was a hallmark of President Obama's plan to support clean energy technologies.<ref>, Washington Post, September 13, 2011</ref> |
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The ] reported that government auditors and industry analysts had faulted the Obama administration for failing to properly evaluate the company's business proposals, as well as for failing to take note of troubling signs which were already evident. In addition, Frank Rusco, a program director at the ], had found that the preliminary loan approval had been granted before officials had completed the legally mandated evaluations of the company.<ref name = "NYT Sep 22 2011">, New York Times, September 22, 2011</ref> |
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The New York Times quoted Shyam Mehta, a senior analyst at GTM Research, as saying "There was just too much misplaced zeal at the Department of Energy for this company." Among 143 companies that had expressed an interest in getting a loan guarantee, Solyndra was the first one to get approval. During the period when Solyndra’s loan guarantee was under review, the company had spent nearly $1.8 million on lobbying. Tim Harris, the CEO of Solopower, a different solar panel company which had obtained a $197 million loan guarantee, told the New York Times that his company had never considered spending any money on lobbying, and that "It was made clear to us early in the process that that was clearly verboten... We were told that it was not only not helpful but it was not acceptable."<ref name = "NYT Sep 22 2011"/> |
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The ] reported that Solyndra had used some of the loan money to purchase new equipment which it never used, and then sold that new equipment, still in its plastic wrap, for pennies on the dollar. Former Solyndra engineer Lindsey Eastburn told the Washington Post, "After we got the loan guarantee, they were just spending money left and right... Because we were doing well, nobody cared. Because of that infusion of money, it made people sloppy."<ref>, Washington Post, September 20, 2011</ref> |
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On September 29, 2011, the Washington Post reported that the Obama administration had continued to allow Solyndra to receive taxpayer money even after it had defaulted on its $535 million loan.<ref>, Washington Post, September 29, 2011</ref> |
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On October 7, 2011, The Washington Post reported that newly revealed emails showed that Energy Department officials had been warned that their plan to help Solyndra by restructuring the loan might be illegal, and should be cleared with the Justice Department first. However, Energy Department officials moved ahead with the restructuring anyway, with a new deal that would repay company investors before taxpayers if the company were to default. The emails showed concerns within the Obama administration about the legality of the Energy Department's actions. In addition, an Energy Department stimulus adviser, Steve Spinner, had pushed for the loan, despite having recused himself because his wife's law firm had done work for the company.<ref>, Washington Post, October 7, 2011</ref> |
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In January 2012, ] reported that Solyndra had thrown millions of dollars worth of brand new glass tubes into garbage dumpsters, where they ended up being shattered. Solyndra told CBS that it had conducted an exhaustive search for buyers of the glass tubes, and that no one had wanted them. However, CBS discovered that Solyndra had not offered the glass tubes for sale at either one of its two asset auctions that took place in 2011. In addition, David Lucky, a buyer and seller of such equipment, told CBS that he would have bought the tubes if he had had a chance to do so. Greg Smestad, a solar scientist who had consulted for the Department of Energy, also agreed that the tubes had value, and had asked Solyndra to donate any unwanted tubes to ]. Smestad stated, "That really makes me sad... Those tubes represent intellectual investment. These could have had a better value to do public good. I think they owed the U.S. taxpayer that."<ref>, CBS News, January 19, 2012</ref> |
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In April 2012, CBS News reported that Solyndra had left a substantial amount of ] at its abandoned facility in ].<ref>, CBS News, April 28, 2012</ref> |
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] (]) 23:31, 7 June 2012 (UTC) |
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{{hab}} |
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Just in case it's not clear from the general discussion, I '''support''' the version Demon and I worked up. I think the ] is right. The version fairly summarizes the controversy without going into unnecessary detail. The links to the detail make that information available if the reader wants to go there, which I think is fair. I believe ] is clear from the sources here and in the Solyndra Controversy article. I also believe that the controversy is not sufficiently prominent to support a more extensive discussion in this article. I don't know if there is WP for this, but I also believe our version represents a fair middle ground between those who want to omit the controversy and those who want to describe it more extensively. And the fact that we were able to agree on it, with our differing personal POVs, speaks for itself. Also, I don't know how these things are supposed to work in terms of multiple postings -- am I supposed to remove my earlier top-level answer, now that I've posted this one?] (]) 19:47, 13 June 2012 (UTC) |
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== Semi-protected edit request on 1 August 2024 == |
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== Foreign policy should mention political events in the Muslim world, not just the OBL killing. == |
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{{edit semi-protected|Presidency of Barack Obama|answered=y}} |
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Iran, Tunisia, Egypt, Yemen, Libya, and Syria all went through major upheavals during the Obama administration. Very little of it is even mentioned. These are important events in the world, and the Obama admin. influenced them by its action and/or inaction. It should be covered.] (]) 00:19, 7 June 2012 (UTC) |
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“Change from Illinois to Hawaii” ] (]) 05:49, 1 August 2024 (UTC) |
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:Indeed, in fact I would say that ''most'' of the events of the Presidency aren't covered, particularly those for the last couple years. This is a major ongoing world event, and the US and administration were mostly on the sidelines except to assist NATO in Libya and put some pressure on Egypt, right? Would you care to draft a paragraph to get us started? Hopefully a short, neutral, uncontroversial starting paragraph won't have to go through an RfC or act of Congress to get in the article :) - 00:25, 7 June 2012 (UTC) |
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::Might be hard to fit it all into one paragraph. I'll see what I can cook up. Will take a few days.] (]) 00:29, 7 June 2012 (UTC) |
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:Where? ] (]) 06:10, 1 August 2024 (UTC) |
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:] '''Not done:'''<!-- Template:ESp --> none of the ''Illinois''{{'s}} is out of place. Obama's home state was Illinois when launching his presidential campaign. ] (]) 08:33, 1 August 2024 (UTC) |
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:::Just a note so this doesn't get auto-purged. I'm constructing this. Presently there is one paragraph for Iran, and one for the Arab Spring, which feels like a natural way to divide it up. It's under construction on my user page. I'll bring it here when it's done.] (]) 19:30, 13 June 2012 (UTC) |
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Not done: none of the Illinois's is out of place. Obama's home state was Illinois when launching his presidential campaign. Hyphenation Expert (talk) 08:33, 1 August 2024 (UTC)