< Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard Browse history interactively← Previous editContent deleted Content addedVisualWikitextInline

Revision as of 00:37, 16 October 2010 editOff2riorob (talk | contribs)80,325 edits →Off2riorob← Previous edit		Latest revision as of 17:41, 19 January 2025 edit undoUnas964 (talk | contribs)51 edits →User:Cherkash mass-spreading of anti-Ukrainian content (related to Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of viewWikipedia:Categories_for_discussion, maybe more)
Line 1:		Line 1:
			{{Short description|Noticeboard for reporting incidents to administrators}}<noinclude><!-- Inside the noinclude, because this page is transcluded.-->{{/Header}}</noinclude>{{clear}}
	__NEWSECTIONLINK__
			{{stack begin|float=right|clear=false|margin=false}}
	{{Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentsHeader}}
	{{User:MiszaBot/config		{{User:MiszaBot/config
	|archiveheader = {{Administrators' noticeboard navbox all}}		|archiveheader = {{Administrators' noticeboard navbox all}}
	|maxarchivesize = 600K		|maxarchivesize =800K
	|counter = 644		|counter = 1176
	|algo = old(24h)		|algo = old(72h)
			|key = 740a8315fa94aa42eb96fbc48a163504d444ec0297a671adeb246c17b137931c
	|key = 4636e7fd80174f8cb324fd91d06d906d
	|archive = Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive%(counter)d		|archive = Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive%(counter)d
			|headerlevel=2
	}}<!--
			}}
	----------------------------------------------------------
			{{stack end}}
	New entries go down at the *BOTTOM* of the page, not here.
			<!--
	----------------------------------------------------------
			NEW ENTRIES GO AT THE BOTTOM OF THE PAGE NOT HERE
	As this page concerns INCIDENTS:U
			NEW ENTRIES GO AT THE BOTTOM OF THE PAGE NOT HERE
	Place the PAGENAME of the incident in the header.
			NEW ENTRIES GO AT THE BOTTOM OF THE PAGE NOT HERE-->
			==Incivility and ABF in contentious topics==
			{{atop
			| result = It looks like everything has been dealt with here. ] (]/]) 18:32, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			}}
			]'s uncivil comments and assuming bad faith on multiple contentious talk pages is not necessarily egregious but I suppose it ''is'' problematic and chronic, consistent and ongoing. I would appreciate some assistance. Here are some diffs from the past few days:
	Otherwise, if the notice is about the actions of an individual across several pages, then place the USERNAME of the individual in the header.
	----------------------------------------------------------
	Do not place links in the section headers.
	(Immediately UNDER the header is preferred).c
	----------------------------------------------------------
	Entries may be refactored based on the above.
	----------------------------------------------------------
	-->
			Disparaging another editor's intellect and reasoning skills.
	== Review of unblock request and discussion of possible community ban ==
			https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Stephanie_Seneff&diff=prev&oldid=1266584883
	{{unresolved}}
	:See ]
	This conversation concerns the handling of a prolific editor who has been found to have infringed copyright in multiple articles. Discussion is ongoing about the potential handling of this review, which will involved tens of thousands of articles. Participation in brainstorming solutions or joining in clean-up would be much appreciated. ] <sup>]</sup>
	:The subpage hasn't been edited in about 2 weeks, so timestamping this thread for archival. –]] 14:33, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
			WP:NPA
	== Co-editor apparently banning me from pages ==
			https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Harald_Walach&diff=prev&oldid=1266713324
	See ]. ''A topic ban from the topic of William Shakespeare has been proposed and has considerable support, and a mutual editing restriction on all parties is also under consideration.''
	: ''Moved to subpage as it's rather big. --] 22:31, 10 October 2010 (UTC)''
	:: Datestamp of this comment is faked in an attempt to delay archiving of this pointer. --] 22:31, 18 October 2010 (UTC)
	:::One of the two editors (I am both the plaintiff and, in the thread, subsequently indicted)for whom a topic ban has been proposed, ], has noted on the page that he is experiencing problems with his computer, and will be travelling until the 18th, and thus cannot respond to the charges or issues raised concerning his editing behaviour. I suggest the page here retain this notice until at least that date.] (]) 11:38, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
			Profanity
	== Meat, Libel, four AfDs, and assorted weirdness at ] ==
			https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:James_Tour&diff=prev&oldid=1267046966
	We have a strange situation brewing and I believe that we will need an admin to come in immediately and sort it all out.
			Assuming "malicious" intent; profanity; deprecating the editor
	===Issue One: Blog accusing Misplaced Pages of deleting articles for money===
	An IP posted a link to today at the talk for David Bruce McMahan. I responded that the process was all done legitimately to my knowledge. It was done at ].
			https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:COVID-19_lab_leak_theory&diff=prev&oldid=1267154877
	Considering that this is an issue of libel against Misplaced Pages, this might need intervention by the office staff. Or we can ignore the blogger, , and move on. More likely option is the first one, with all the chaos that entails.
			Unicivil
	===Issue Two: Meatpuppetry or other Odd Beheavior===
	Someone with more experiance than I should look at the edit histories of ] and the IP 69.140.102.40. SirBruce has not been seen since 9 Feb 2010 and then posted in the talk page warning another user not to remove sources. The other user (Melaen) seems above question and seems to have taken the correct actions, but SirBruce's appearance raises questions. This is compounded by the edit history which has been absent for over a month before posting the link to the voice and making accusations against Misplaced Pages.
			https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Mick_West&diff=prev&oldid=1267158027
	Finally, the article creator ] appeared today for the first time since 2007 to create this article. In 2007 he created several other articles that were deleted. The timing of all these users is suspicious. The admin ] blocked the account for 48 hours for disruptive editing, but I think this is someone's dormant sock, as there is no other explination as to why the account would suddenly come in and create an article like this.
			https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Origin_of_SARS-CoV-2&diff=prev&oldid=1267160441
	===Issue Three: The curious history of ] and ]===
	There have been four AfDs for this article. Three without the David, one with it. I upgraded the fourth to a CSD G3 on account of it being deleted before. That being said, the first and second AfDs resulted in Keeps, and the third was a Delete. The sources seemed not to have changed, but the consensus shifted. In full disclosure I voted delete on the newest AfD, but was unaware of the other three except for the notification of the deletion history at the AfD. I wanted to bring this up in light of the posting from the Voice, and because the people that hang out here will know the best course of action in all three incidents.
			Contact on user page attempted
	I will not be participating in the discussion of these issues unless I am asked to do so. Please inform me at my talk page if I am needed. <span style="text-shadow:#3333aa 0.10em 0.10em 0.10em"><font color="black">]</font> <sub><span style="text-shadow:#ffd700 0.14em 0.14em 0.14em"><font color="black">]</font></sub></span> 01:58, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
			https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Hob_Gadling&diff=prev&oldid=1267160795
	====Note====
			Assuming bad faith, accusing editor of being incompetent
	The page in question has just been deleted. Apparently this is not a problem for Admins, so I don't advise restoring it, as it can only cause more problems. All three issues are still valid though. <span style="text-shadow:#3333aa 0.10em 0.10em 0.10em"><font color="black">]</font> <sub><span style="text-shadow:#ffd700 0.14em 0.14em 0.14em"><font color="black">]</font></sub></span> 02:12, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
			https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Origin_of_SARS-CoV-2&diff=prev&oldid=1267163557] (]) 03:19, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
	:Relevant link to final AFD before speedy: ]. ''']''' <sup><small>]</small></sup> 02:13, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
	{| class="wikitable collapsible collapsed"
	! <big>ENOUGH ALREADY.</big> See below:
	|-
	|====Comments====
	So this guy gets his page deleted because he's not "notable" even though he's had plenty of articles written on him and lawsuits against him. What would make him notable in the eyes of Misplaced Pages? A reference on Family Guy? Does Peter need to go "Bruce McMahan? That's like that one time I slept with Meg!"?
			:Think this calls for a fierce ] slapping and some direct words. I cannot really endorse a ] according to ], as this is just an ] and frankly, I don't see ''direct'' personal attacks, I just see unfriendly behavior and prick-ish attitude, no outward disruption of the project either. Also, I have to ask for further review of, to start with, this editor's December contributions, as {{tq|some diffs from the past few days}} are not indicative of chronic issue. The holiday times, like Christmas, Hanukkah, and New Years' can be some of the most stressful times for people during the year. Not saying I like seeing this, but I can understand the feeling. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 04:15, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
	Just because the content of the article is poor, doesn't mean the entire page should be deleted. This person is clearly notable based on the wide coverage this has received in addition to his role as CEO of a firm that has received coverage, philanthropy that has received coverage, etc. Most of the criticism leveled is hung up on the negative nature of the original article -- clearly, the article's content was unacceptable. But, that means a stub should be created, sources listed, and appropriate tags citing need for improvement, perhaps even created with protection given the obvious controversy, and so forth. In other words, deleting articles due to controversy is ridiculous. There are hundreds of thousands of articles with '''far''' less reliable (and far fewer) sources that we don't go around randomly deleting. We need to be honest with ourselves and admit that we are deleting the article repeatedly due to, 1) the article content being bad (even in poor taste), and 2) controversial. However, neither of this actually justify the actions taken. It means that it's just going to be a huge pain in the ass for an admin to maintain and a writer to create. ] (]) 05:14, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
			::Would I be the person to provide you with that {{tq|further review of, to start with, this editor's December contributions}}? I did think that it would be more than a ], since that's for {{tq|one-off instances of seemingly silly behavior}} and this is more like a perpetual bad habit that needs something a bit stronger, like a stern ]. ] (]) 06:14, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:@]: I don't see anything violating policy with regard to direct personal attacks or even profanity directed at a person, but rather directed to the topic in the discussion. ''Hob should know better'', and as per BarntToust, Hob really deserves a trout to be a bit more civil and how to ]. But I would ''caution you'' about ] and the new attention to your activity and involvement this has drawn to your own edits. For example your , , and it seems like you're having a problem handling a ] and assuming bath faith of editors. You are not going to win a battle to get your material included by trying to report other editors in bad faith.
			:Furthermore it does appear that you might be ] because your attempts at ] for your specific perspectives regarding Covid are meeting resistance at every turn. , , , , , , and now this ANI report. Without evaluating everything you've discussed in the past few weeks, at quick glance it appears that you're having problems understanding ] and are having contentious discussions with far more experienced editors. That isn't to say that we assume that they're correct and you're wrong, but when you're receiving pushback from multiple very experienced editors, I would encourage you to slow down a bit and try to fully understand the policy, and isntead of arguing to "win", you need to read about how you need to work towards ]. Because at the end of the day, without consensus, you will continue to have a lot of problems. ]&thinsp;] 05:37, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::I appreciate the feedback and will take it into consideration and try to refine my approach to disputes. My intention has been to address ''unique issues'' as they arise, versus shopping around the same old dispute. For example, the current ANI topic pertains specifically to some rude behavior that has been going on for quite some time and doesn't show any sign of stopping despite my attempts to resolve it directly. The editor in question actually seems pretty reasonable in their interpretation of the sources but I speculate that there might be a perception in the rank-and-file that it's OK to be pretty uncivil to editors who advocate for moving the NPOV because they're naturally afraid of putting their own head on the chopping block, so to speak. I suppose raising these issues in relevant venues is in line with guidelines. Both of those RSN discussions were related to distinct sourcing problems and resulted in useful resolutions that aligned with my concerns. The Teahouse posts about the Covid content disputes and a question regarding the politics of Misplaced Pages was in response to an administrator’s suggestion (]) that I drop by there for a discussion, and I found the feedback from experienced users there helpful. My talk page comments about user behavior were meant to discuss issues first on talk pages, per the ANI guidelines. ({{tq|All content and conduct issues should be discussed first at the talk page of the relevant article or user before requesting dispute resolution.}} ]) Thank you for your time and input.
			::] (]) 07:07, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::I hope the editors who read this will notice the ABF here: {{tq|trying to report other editors in bad faith}}. ] (]) 21:10, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{OD}}
			{{collapse top|title=Minor discussion on use of ChatGPT in Lardle's user page}}
			@]: Jay brought something to my attention with . It looks like there is ] (ChatGPT) text about "COVID-19 Natural Immunity" copied and pasted on there. What in the cheeseballs?? What made you think {{!tq|hmm, let's prompt ShatGPT to churn out 700 words about this random out-of-pocket topic, and I'm gonna post this on my Misplaced Pages user page for no reason!}} I'm confused. This specific revision also ] about IP editors, and here's the rich part: just as you copy-pasted text from ChatGPT about COVID to your user page, you go on to write a section that addresses use of AI. {{tq|Quoting from an AI chat bot without attribution is plaigiarism.}} I'm just confused with what you are doing here. So I'd like to ask you, ], what in the sam hill is going on here? If there is a reasonable explanation for this goofiness, I suggest you produce one, '''not from a prompt entered into ChatGPT''', in your own words. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 16:59, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:It is an old version of their user page, and it is not plagiarism to quote from a chat bot even without attribution, so we must assume that you are attempt to detract from the OP's complaint. The issue at hand is an experienced editor who joins talk page discussions without understanding the topic at hand (which they admit in one instance ), and are frequently use derogatory language and tone towards other editors. This behavior does not seem like a new thing for them and they clearly know how to skirt the edge of what would be considered a personal attack by an admin, so this merits a formal warning. ] (]) 18:16, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
	I have deleted this wretched and unacceptable article, along with its talkpage. They should not be restored. ] (]) 02:14, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
			::look, the other guy is acting pissy, and I agree with the formal warning. But @], you should familiarise yourself with ]. The long short of it if you didn't click on one of the several instances of it being linked above: If an editor attempts to bring someone else to ANI while having dirty laundry themselves, this editor will likely be found out for their dirty laundry. And that's what I'm doing right now. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 18:34, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
	:Agree with this comment by {{user|Newyorkbrad}}, above. -- ''']''' (]) 02:21, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
			:::I know what WP:BOOMERANG is and I telling you that you appears to be here only to detract from the complaint, and the way you are doing it by dragging up something from old user page and making claims of plagirism is highly suspect. If an admin scrolls through Hob's comments on the lab leak topic page, they will see that they are almost all designed to provoke and demean other editors. This highly inappropriate for such a difficult topic area where editors struggle to agree on NPOV. ] (]) 18:45, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
	::This is all well and good, and I stand by the delete, but issues one and two are still important. Should issue 1 be taken to the office and issue 2 to the sockbusters? If so, can someone else do it, I'm not sure how to report things to the office staff or how to report possible meats without knowing who the leader is. <span style="text-shadow:#3333aa 0.10em 0.10em 0.10em"><font color="black">]</font> <sub><span style="text-shadow:#ffd700 0.14em 0.14em 0.14em"><font color="black">]</font></sub></span> 02:27, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
			::::So far, there's agreement that this is unbecoming behaviour from Hob, and they need a ] slap to wake them the heck up from the bad behaviour. I do not understand why the jester cannot be questioned for his goofy behaviour when he shows himself to be goofy as he tries to alert everyone of the fool's, uh, foolishness. No offence intended from this medieval analogy. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 18:53, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::{{u|BarntToust}} You're being ] and you need to stop. WP:BOOMERANG is for when the reporter is the one causing the problems, not for airing "dirty laundry" as you yourself describe it. ] (]) 18:59, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::well, I tend to get concerned when someone with LLM text pasted on their userpage comes up from the water. If that's considered bite-y to reiterate my concerns in intentional lighthearted analogy in order to seem less hard-headed, then I guess we're done here. @], I invite you to weigh in on whether you think a '''formal warning''' or a ] slap is what needs to happen to Hob. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 19:04, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::{{ping|BarntToust}} I would appreciate if you did not derail noticeboard threads by rudely browbeating participants about seemingly irrelevant(?) issues. <b style="font-family:monospace;color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 01:12, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::I think I'm gone from this board because of other work I'm focusing on regarding NIИ's ] and other stuff. Ad Hominems are what I did, and pointing out questionable behaviour (IE unexplained, self-contradictory AI slop text) from the user page of the currently 1 week-blocked Lardle who ] actually seemed pretty helpful, as literally everyone else in this trainwreck of a thread brought up unrelated stuff (Lardle's unrelated COVID conspiracy mongering) instead of discussing Hob. I do admit I went on tangents through this already derailed mega thread, but I'm among others not much worse for the derailing. I mean, how many ANI reports start with a fellow reporting "This guy is using the word 'bullshit' on talk pages" and end with that fellow getting a broadly construed TBAN that they violate mere moments after implementation? Yeah, I'm again, I'm gone to work on other stuff. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 01:31, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:That content from ChatGPT was meant to go in my sandbox as experiment or for assisting with research into a future article. The LLM can generate wikitext with links to articles that already exist. ] (]) 18:35, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::When you get a bunch of text from a large language model, you get unsourced content. If you ask ChatGPT for info, you run the serious risk of getting false content. So, either way you take it: If you get text, then try to re-write it cohesively, and find sources for it, you are ] and that is to be discouraged; if you are asking AI to gain an understanding on an unfamiliar topic, you are likely to run into false information. If you use AI for either of these purposes, @], I suggest you be very judicious about how you go about "leveraging AI". There are more ways that can go wrong than I need to count on the ANI. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 18:43, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Why are you on this administrator page making these spurious claims of plagiarism and giving this unsolicited advices? ] (]) 18:59, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::@], I'm pointing out questionable content on someone else page. for ''context'', in which they copied ChatGPT text without attribution, then said that using ChatGPT without attribution is plagiarism. That contradictory stuff is what I was questioning. please click on the diff for context. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 19:11, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I use it more like a (really good) search engine or a thesaurus. It can give a lot of suggestions for a human writer, but ultimately you use your own mind and RS to formulate the facts and how to present them. ] (]) 19:05, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::that's a good moderation mindset to use. I'm satisfied with your answer, it makes enough sense. Carry on! <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 19:13, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::Thanks! *curtsy* ] (]) 00:52, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{collapse bottom}}
			*The lack of civility in this contentious topic is significantly hindering editing efforts, especially since most issues concern neutrality and tone, which requires a careful and nuanced approach. ] (]) 17:58, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:I can't see anything in the original report that does anything other than show that Hob Gadling calls a thicko a thicko. What is wrong with that? ] (]) 18:33, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::@] As someone who was the recipient of one of those attacks in the example, I'm curious, what is a "thicko" and why do you believe that I am one? ] (]) 19:02, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::...according to the Cambridge English Dictionary, it means "a stupid person" - which would make it ]. - ] <sub>]</sub> 19:51, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Yes, in British slang, "thick" = "stupid". ]] 19:54, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
			There is not enough context for the examples of impatience from Hob Gadling which the OP offers. For example, Lardlegwarmers, do you really expect a warm welcome for your 'attempted contact on user page' ]? Or for your puritanical reproaches about HG's use of "profanity" (which normally turns out to mean using the word ''bullshit'', which is by no means banned from Misplaced Pages, nor is its expressiveness easy to replace with something more flattering). Considering what they're replying to, of another editor's intellect and reasoning skills"]] seems pretty temperate. And so on. ] &#124; ] 20:19, 4 January 2025 (UTC).
			:I'm not suggesting we should wash anybody's mouth out with soap. The editor's consistent uncivil behavior is more than just the occasional salty diction here and there. I mean, look at ] where an editor is asking for a discussion on why Hob Gadling reverted his edit. It seems as if the person was trying to do it on the talk page and was ignored. Hob Gadling gruffly tells the other editor to get lost. ] (]) 01:00, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
	I went ahead and salted the article on the reason that some extensive discussion will be necessary before considering recreation. –] 02:33, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
			:My experience is that this kind of aggression is standard operating procedure for the defendant. I'd basically given up on them seeing any consequences for it - it's been going on for a long time, so I assumed this is one of the cases where editors with enough "social capital" get an exemption from CIVIL. I doubt a trout will have lasting effect. - ] (]) 02:33, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
	:Just a random policy question from a new-ish user. I know salting prevents recreating articles, but do the discussion pages also get salted? <small>If so it didn't get done in either case...</small> Just curious, <span style="text-shadow:#3333aa 0.10em 0.10em 0.10em"><font color="black">]</font> <sub><span style="text-shadow:#ffd700 0.14em 0.14em 0.14em"><font color="black">]</font></sub></span> 02:42, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
			::My experience with and attitude toward Hob is 100% the same as described here by Palpable. It goes back a while ... <span style="text-shadow:#000 0em 0em 1em">☿&nbsp;] (]&nbsp;])</span> 22:06, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			Hob Gadling failing to yield to ], apparently missing both the discussion and RSN link from the talk page. Asserting an unreliable source as reliable in order to describe the subject as having a ‘victim complex’. ] (]) 23:56, 4 January 2025 (UTC)
	*Can someone explain this to me? NYB's deletion summary indicates that there are multiple AfDs that have deleted this, but I'm only seeing one (proceeded by 2 keeps where consensus was strongly on the keep side). Further I'm not having problems finding sources on this person. There is all the "odd" stuff like and , but there are also things like , and on his world-record setting car and for his foundation work , . Help? ] (]) 03:00, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
			:Note that Hob edited the talk page after re-adding this content; he should have self reverted if he missed this discussion prior. ] (]) 00:01, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
	**], ], ]. As far as this last deletion was concerned, after looking at the deleted copy, I do have to agree with NYB. It was entirely negative in tone and would have likely fallen under ] as an attack page; it just happened to have been deleted a bunch of times before that. –] 03:09, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
			*'''Propose''' serving of trout to both. Hob likely may have acted a hair too strongly to a source of exasperation; but not enough for any warning. Lardlegwarmers provides a large helping of such and I would suggest a boom if not for BITE. Albeit, Lardlegwarmers’ knowledge of WP is beyond the average for an editor with 5x the posts. I would suggest a non-logged warning to Lardlegwarmers on the concept of collaboration for their own good. Otherwise, we are likely to see them back here given their attitude at both this filing and at ]. (Disclaimer, I have been involved.) ] (]) 01:47, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
	***The 2nd and 1st were keeps. So if we do want this recreated we get a userspace version and DrV it? If so, I'd like to request the version deleted by the 3rd AfD be userfied to me. I'll dig back and find what was keepable about 1 and 2 and use that as a starting point. ] (]) 03:21, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
			*:For context, ] is on the other "side" from me in a content dispute along with Hob Gadling (])] (]) 15:57, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
	****I didn't see any of those articles, but I'm guessing that the most recent version was a gross violation of our BLP policies, and as such it shouldn't be userfied either - i.e., it should stay invisible to the public. If the result of the second AFD was "keep", then maybe ''that one'' could be userfied - if its content is not potentially libelous. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 03:33, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
	*****Fine with me I suppose, but given that it wasn't deleted for being libelous, I assume that the 3rd should be fine too. I'll take either (assuming I get the history). ] (]) 03:35, 9 October 2010 (UTC)		*::I am on the "side" of Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines and am not arguing any content issues here. But I did state I was involved. ] (]) 16:02, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::Best not to imply that your opposition is not on the side of the rules. Given this comment and your involvement, I think you should recuse. ] (]) 00:01, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::Recuse{{smiley}} Appears that you have over 500 edits to Covid related article pages including their TPs. That's approaching 50% of your lifetime edits and 250 times the percentage of my edits in that area. Consider that in your short time here, you were blocked for egregious and repeated bad-faith assumptions. Probably should avoid that in future as this appears to be the same. Meanwhile, I stand by my post here and involved editors add value; so I will not suggest that you recuse. ] (]) 01:21, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::::To be clear, I was suggesting recusing from proposals, not from discussion. Regards. ] (]) 02:10, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:If you click through the diffs, you’ll notice that many other editors have received the rude comments, so this is more than a 1-on-1 scuffle with me and Hob Gadling. I stopped compiling examples after finding 9 examples of visible hostility out of their most recent dozen diffs, but like I mentioned to ] above, I can go back further if you need me to, to illustrate the chronic pattern. And the handful of other editors who have spoken up here who have been aggrieved speak for themselves. ] (]) 03:31, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			*As a note, Hob Gadling without comment and has not responded here. - ] <sub>]</sub> 22:39, 5 January 2025 (UTC)
	This is clearly a page that should exist. David Bruce McMahan aka D. Bruce McMahan aka David B. McMahan has had several feature stories written about him in newspapers and magazines, including cover articles in New Times Broward-Palm Beach and Village Voice. He was the subject of multiple lawsuits and has tried to censor journalists and now Misplaced Pages from reporting on him. He is also a successful businessman and philanthropist who has multiple projects named after him.
			*:Hob Gadling is allowed to do whatever they want to their user talk page including removing notifications of discussions. ] (]) 00:47, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::Never said they weren't. Just noting that they clearly received the notice and chose not to respond here, which is a response in and of itself. - ] <sub>]</sub> 04:18, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{collapse top|Extended discussion}}
			{{od}}
			Wish Hob Gadling would not act like a profane teenager on talk page discussions and that they'd treat people without the smartass-y-ness and contempt. If they are so committed to being pissy towards other users while being shut-off in their own la-la-land, maybe they need a block until they're willing to face the music. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 01:56, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			:This comment is actually more of a personal attack then any of the diffs provided originally. Smartass, like a teenager, pissy, lalaland? That's some ageism, maybe commenting on mental health, and some silly insults. I don't think you should see any sanctions for this, but hopefully you compare your comments to the diffs. ] (]) 22:29, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
	The content of the article on Misplaced Pages was at one time up to standards, but got gutted. The article should be improved and not deleted. There is more than enough information, including direct source legal papers, to fill an appropriate article on him. The page just needs time to stay up instead of being deleted so it can be improved.
			::IP, how'd you get here? A person who calls things {{tq|bullshit}} and generally isn't in a good mood around others, being condescending: saying that they are pissy and being a smartass is ]. Teenagers are known for angst and pissy-ness and for having lip. Not insinuating they are a teenager, just that their behavior resembles that of. As you will recall, someone, somewhere in this derailed, miles-long trainwreck of an ANI report-turned morality seminar-turned COVID-19 ] + ] debate, said that there is no policy against profanity. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 23:07, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::If I tell User:ExampleA that they did an "amazing fuckin' job!" with a ], that is different than calling User:ExampleB a "{{!tq|fuckin' wanker}}" because they botched a ]. Context is everything, and I get how we are all connecting through the two-dimensional medium of simple text and thus misunderstandings tend to occur, but tones like these aren't that hard to discern. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 23:12, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::When ] shouts "fucking A!" after a job well done, that is not the same when he tells ] that he is a "fucking psycho murderer". <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 23:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Right, and there are no egregious uncivil diffs either. So, how is Hob acting like a pissy teenager, but you aren't? Catch my drift? This is a nothing burger report, and the reporter should get a boomerang. ] (]) 00:56, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Hob's profanity is not amiable. It sours the collaboration with other editors. most importantly, it is undue. Mine is not undue, and is a statement of truth. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 01:12, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::Provide a diff of something you believe is sanctionable. Your pile of personal attacks is making it unclear what you are trying to say. It's ok when you cuss, but it's bad if someone else does it? What? ] (]) 01:21, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::Profanity has nothing to do with it. The attitude is the thing that's wrong. The word "shit" can be said in many different ways. Some good, some bad. Have you even looked through these diffs of Hob's comments that have popped up through this ANI report? I also invite you to create an account. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 02:21, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::So, to recap, ]: It's not ''what'' it is said that causes problems, it's '''''how''''' it is said that matters, and in what context. I call a pissy editor pissy because it's great to ]. I can use profanity to describe someone's behaviour, and if I weigh words, I can even use it when addressing someone's contributions; i.e. "This is a really fuckin' well done article, User:Example". Hob calling someone's opinions {{tq|bullshit}} is not the right thing to do. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 02:29, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::I think you may refer to this as calling a spade a spade. When someone says we should ignore science because it has a COI with Covid-19, their opinion is bullshit. This is what you are defending. ] (]) 03:15, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::Eh, you can say "That's ] and ] and does not constitute ] as the subject is discussed in ]". Calling a spade a spade is easy, while addressing content and user contributions in dispute should require more, IDK, poise. I can say "fucking awesome work!" to an editor about their ] and no harm can be meant by that in any feasible situation, but when addressing questionable content, it should be done with nuance, eh? You can call someone's work shit whose work ''isn't'' shit, but you pretty much can't call someone's work "fucking amazing" whose work isn't amazing, as calling work "fucking amazing" provides pretty much no point of contention, unless you were just bullshitting them for no reason or trying to be nice about a novice's contributions that in terms of quality, reflect their inexperience.
			:::::::::This entire ANI report has derailed into pretty much every unrelated topic save debate over what ]. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 03:58, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::I'm not worried about contexts when "strong language" is ok, and you can stop giving needless examples. I don't believe anything that violates our guidelines on civility took place at all in the diffs originally provided. Hob was reasonable in tone, and sometimes people are exasperated by nonsense. Being annoyed but mostly polite isn't actually against the rules. You will need better diffs to change my mind. ] (]) 06:32, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::The COI pertains only to a few authors in particular with a personal stake in the outcome of the investigation. For example, the article uses several sources co-authored by Dr. Zhengliang Shi who {{tq|herself and the WIV itself have an obvious conflict of interest}}<ref> Nie JB. "In the Shadow of Biological Warfare: Conspiracy Theories on the Origins of COVID-19 and Enhancing Global Governance of Biosafety as a Matter of Urgency." Journal of Bioethical Inquiry. 2020 Dec;17 https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7445685/</ref> This is a secondary peer-reviewed article, and several editors who call LL fringe stated it is RS.<ref>https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_327#c-GPinkerton-2021-01-18T14:40:00.000Z-ScrupulousScribe-2021-01-18T14:27:00.000Z</ref><ref>https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:COVID-19_lab_leak_theory#c-Shibbolethink-20250104081900-IntrepidContributor-20250103151400</ref> ] (]) 08:31, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{collapse bottom}}
			It should be noted that Lardlegwarmers, after only truly starting editing two months ago, has been actively pushing ] misinformation, particularly on Covid related pages. They have actively been making claims that the scientific community is trying to cover things up, such as ], and has been using poor quality sources to try and claim that major published scientific papers on the topic are false, such as ]. This entire thread just sounds like an attempt to silence another editor who has been actively dealing with fringe POV-pushers across numerous articles, such as those linked by Lardlegwarmers above. ]]<sup>]</sup> 02:14, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
	http://www.villagevoice.com/2006-09-26/news/daddy-s-girl/
			:Both parties can be wrong and in need of a final warning. And it seems that's the case here. ] (]) 02:38, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
	http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/archives/2010/10/memo_to_bruce_m.php
			:*I haven't seen any evidence presented that would put Hob Gadling in the wrong; after reviewing the diffs I'm scratching my head and can only conclude that some of the people above have been commenting without reading them. Most of them are not even mildly uncivil. Going over them, the majority are clearly criticizing someone's argument (or the specific reasoning they presented), which is not a personal attack; and others aren't violations at all. Misplaced Pages editors are not forbidden from using profanity; the fact that Lardlegwarmers' unconvincing throw-every-unconnected-thing-at-the-wall-and-see-what-sticks approach here extended to the fact that their target used the word (gasp!) {{tq|bullshit}} to describe an argument that did, in fact, turn out to be bullshit shows how weak it is. What's more alarming is that ''that'' was what led Lardlewarmers to try and , a hamhanded effort whose sheer inappropriateness they remain sufficiently tone-deaf to that they made the mistake of bragging about it here as part of their "report". This is a straightforward ] situation. --] (]) 02:50, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
	http://www.browardpalmbeach.com/Issues/2006-09-28/news/feature.html
			:*:There's only so much we can handle when someone has had five years to fulfill their promise and "]" in situations like this one. Misplaced Pages would be better off if people were more willing to ] and stop treating ]. ] (]) 03:07, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			:*:The reason I cited numerous diffs was to substantiate, as I said in my post, that this is a ''chronic'' and ''ongoing'' habit of rude and uncivil behavior. I posted the diff of Hob Gadling's user page not to "brag" (and I don't understand how you inferred that), but rather to show that I followed ANI procedure to address conduct disputes first on the user page and that my attempt was dismissed without Hob Gadling addressing it except to blank the comment with the explantion that I wasn't welcome on his page.] (]) 20:47, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			:I am not trying to silence anyone. See above, I recommend a stern warning about consistent uncivil comments and that’s it. If Hob Gadling has something substantive to say, they can say it without demeaning the editors as if this is a combat sport instead of a discussion about articles of text. I encourage y'all to check out the discussions linked to by Silverseren. I have been careful to use sources, present my suggestions in good faith, and stay neutral in personal interactions. I am genuinely trying to find consensus. I'll mention that Silverseren is also involved in the content dispute, providing sources that myself and several other editors believe do not verify an extraordinary claim in the article. (]) It's getting to the point where we should do a content moderation over that, since I am sure that the sources do not verify the claim but Silverseren apparently is sure that they do. ] (]) 03:49, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			::I think it was probably a poor choice for you to reference Silverseren's discussion as proof of one-sided UNCIVIL behavior. There is precious little in your first response to Hob in this specific LL section that makes your point that that you're trying to find consensus, but rather demonstrates a heavy handed ''I'm right because I can cite more WP policies in bolded type''. As the Alien above said, you '''{{tq|Both parties can be wrong and in need of a final warning.}}''' now ]. ]&thinsp;] 18:57, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::No, TiggerJay, that is false. Except for one link to ], the links you mentioned are all main-space articles to describe the ] contained in Hob Gadling's arguments, including the use of ], as part of my intention to focus on and steer the conversation towards a discussion of the ''content'', not attacking the person (]). This is the second comment you have posted in this discussion that mischaracterizes my actions and falsely accuses me of bad faith.] (]) 19:52, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::For the record I do ''agree with you'' that Hob's position was absolutely a fallacy; I might assume they might have even been ] you. I also agree that you also have references to main space article, beyond the single reference to policy. I even agree that there is an probably conflict of interest with those virologists you named, but unless their editing Misplaced Pages that is irrelevant unless you're performing ] or ], rather we depend on ] and ] to help navigate such things. You claimed that you intented to {{tq|steer the conversation towards a discussion of the content, not attacking the person}}. However, that is not what I read in that . Out of the gate you're calling Hob uncivil, their arguments are false, and then lobbing further accusations. You get the discussion wrapped up arguing over who said what, and what they meant by it, and why your positions are valid and theirs are not. As for bad faith, I'll invite to other editors to comment below if they agree that I'm the one presuming bad faith towards you. Cheers! ]&thinsp;] 00:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::Your point about RS is well-taken. However, per WP:RS, concerns about the reliability of a particular source ought to be discussed on the article talk page (]) first when it is only germane to the particular topic and not the publication as a whole.] (]) 00:37, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::I think I understand what you're referring to about RS. Yes, there are times when a source is otherwise considered reliable (or even un-reliable) but consensus can be found with regards to a specific narrow aspect of it that might warrant it's inclusion or exclusions, or some variation on how it is presented or the weight afforded to it in the article. And that comes through talk page consensus as you mentioned and does not necessarily need to be unanimous. ]&thinsp;] 01:46, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			Being entirely blunt, if we have two visions of Misplaced Pages: one in which people are occasionally rude or incivil to people who tout pseudoscience concerning major diseases and one in which pseudoscience concerning major diseases makes its way into article space then I'll gladly sign up for the rude / incivil Misplaced Pages over the pseudoscience one. This is to say that being rude is most certainly a {{tq|lesser offense}}. ] (]) 20:23, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
	--] (]) 03:27, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
			:Please check out the article and discussion. The lab leak theory is not pseudoscience, but rather a scientific hypothesis which important scientists have suggested is worthy of serious investigation (]). Although the evidence strongly favors a zoonotic origin, the investigation is inconclusive. In any case, I would favor a Misplaced Pages where civil discussion leads to a balanced representation of what is published in reliable sources. If your position is supported by the sources, there is no need to resort to name calling. ] (]) 20:38, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
	:I really hate to do this, as the comment I am about to make flies in the face of many of my core policies, but it has to be said: I'm been to South Florida. I've had the ''distinct misfortune'' of reading the New Times. It is unreliable, and has such tremendously low journalistic standards that it is on par with trash tabloids. I would never use it as a source in ''anything.'' I'd sooner use the National Inquirer. '''The New Times is NOT a suitable source, ever, period'''. As for the other sources, anything with blog in the name is genertally viewed with skepticism. A few blogs are editor reviewed and have high standards. The NPR blogs come to mind. Most blogs are not editor reviewed and therefore are not good sources. Also considering my view of the voice as reliable isn't that high.
			::It's pseudoscience and a pseudoscientific hypotheses burdened with quite a few racist and conspiracist adherents who want to propose China intentionally spread a plague just to weaken the United States. Preventing the promulgation of ''this specific'' pseudoscientific hypothesis is certainly more important to the integrity of this encyclopedia than the very old grievance that the regulars at the Fringe Theory noticeboard are insufficiently diplomatic. ] (]) 20:47, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::What you are describing is a different idea: ]. The lab leak hypothesis would be that the pandemic started due to researchers being accidentally infected with the virus. {{tq|the World Health Organization is recommending in its strongest terms yet that a deeper probe is required into whether a lab accident may be to blame. ]}} {{tq|The fact that the virus is not human-made does not necessarily exclude the possibility that the virus escaped the lab by accident (Field 2020; Guterl et al. 2020). This remains an open question; without independent and transparent investigations, it may never be either proven or disproven. The leakage of dangerous pathogens had already occurred more than once in other labs.}}(]) ] (]) 21:09, 6 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::That's not what the article is about. It is about a "conspiracy theory". But this is entirely irrelevant to this noticeboard. This noticeboard is about behavior, not content. It can be extraordinarily frustrating to those who have been building this encyclopedia for ages (20 years in the case of Hob Gadling) to deal with large numbers of brandy new editors trying to push new conspiracy theories, often politically motivated. If you wish respect, try supplying some yourself. Believe me, it will aide you in your work here. I stand by my proposal of trouting you both and an unlogged warning to you that is for your own good if you wish to continue contributing. ] (]) 01:33, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::Beyond what @] said, ''for all parties'', it doesn't matter who is "right" (when it comes to the article or talk pages), that is not sufficient to be uncivil ]. ]&thinsp;] 01:50, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::Indeed. ] (]) 01:59, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::If Hob Gadling wants to "deal with" new editors who threaten Misplaced Pages, it should ''not'' be through aggression and insulting them openly, but through quality sources and discussion. Editors who sympathize with "fringe" ideas might be more cooperative if they didn't have to defend themselves against offensive comments in response to their suggestions. ] (]) 07:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::If this "old grievance" about the FTN exemption to CIVIL really has been thoroughly hashed out, could someone link the discussion from ] or something? Being up front about it would save time here at ANI, plus it's always heartbreaking to watch as earnest new editors learn about this the hard way. - ] (]) 01:51, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Palpable, were you canvassed to this conversation? You seem to be a very inactive editor. I've made more IP edits in a month than you have edits in two decades. I'm curious how such a new editor found this. ] (]) 01:58, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::I am in the diffs.
			:::::I would still like a pointer to the discussion of why FTN regulars get an exemption from CIVIL, I honestly think that should be better understood. - ] (]) 02:30, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::They don't have an exemption, and I challenge you to provide a diff proving they do. ] (]) 03:30, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::I think he was referring to the comment by Simonm223 above: {{tq|Preventing the promulgation of this specific pseudoscientific hypothesis is certainly more important to the integrity of this encyclopedia than the very old grievance that the regulars at the Fringe Theory noticeboard are insufficiently diplomatic.}}] ] (]) 07:03, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::That diff certainly doesn't prove anyone is exempt from policy. I think it's interesting Palpable said he was following diffs instead of saying he was involved in the content dispute underlying this complaint. ] (]) 21:26, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::No, they're one of the pro-fringe editors in the linked discussion. ] (]) 21:14, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::This is a deeply silly comment. <b style="font-family:monospace;color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 01:16, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{collapse top|title=Extended discussion}}
			:::::How ironic that you would call out canvass, when you haven't contributed to this discussion previously, nor have you contributed to any prior notice board. See ], also please see ] if you logged out just to make {{tq|problematic edits}} here.... ]&thinsp;] 05:13, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::I've contributed to this notice board hundreds of times, what are you talking about? IPs are only assigned for a few hours to weeks at a time usually. ] (]) 05:23, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::@]: Okay let me say it another way...
			:::::::* never in this history of this subject has an IP editor contributed.
			:::::::* since January 1, ALL of the IP's who have contributed to ANI aside from your are blocked or had their contribution reverted.
			:::::::* in the last 50,000 edits to this notice board, not a single anon has commented more than 34 times and that user was in Romania, whereas your IP shows US/Mobile, and they are currently blocked. Followed up an IPv6 with 30 edits, last participated in ANI back in May. Followed by a handful from the UK and other countries. The first one who is US based that was mobile has less than 12 edits, not hundreds.
			:::::::* when you choose to edit anonymously (which is your privilege) you accept the reality that people will question your constructiveness because of a lack of established history.
			:::::::But beyond all of that, aren't you simply deflecting from the question brought up? Perhaps @] has been lurking anonymously. As they have logged at least 31 edits to ANI alone . ]&thinsp;] 05:53, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::There's a lot of strawmen there to knock down if I cared to derail this conversation, but I'm curious what question you think I'm deflecting? Your assumptions of bad faith are expected, but disappointing. ] (]) 06:03, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::What I claim you are deflecting KETTLE: Somehow you feel like you can call out someone who hasn’t contributed previously as canvassed, which is a ''serious allegation'', yet that is exactly what your user account history appears reflect. When challenged, you claimed to have edited hundreds of time, which was rebutted with facts, you resorted to allegations. Interestingly they very closely mirror only one other person who liberally throws around terms like strawman and bad faith. And really only one person at ANI has ever held this view so strongly they would plainly say bad faith was “expected” from me . If your not that person, then my query is how did you get involved in this conversation, and when exactly do you proffer that you last edited on here as an IP constructively? ''However, '''if''' you are indeed that person, let me warn you, such activity is considered sock puppetry.'' (Of course editing while accidentally logged out is a human mistake. But persisting and pretending otherwise, is not.) ]&thinsp;] 07:12, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::Don't know what this thread is about, but point 2 and 3 seem wrong - none of my IPs have been blocked, and I am an anon that has, in the to this board I made 38 of them (all edits by IPs starting with 2804:F14), let alone in the last 50 thousand edits.
			::::::::Maybe I'm misunderstanding your claims. &ndash; ] (]) (]) 06:08, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::I think my detail for you was accidentally edited out. You would be an IPv6 from a different country, so unless this IP user is claiming they have rotating IPs hourly because they’re using an international VPN connecting via various countries, I find their claim that they just stumbled upon this conversation dubious at best. ]&thinsp;] 06:33, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::Also in case you were not aware, while mobile IP addresses can and do change, they still remain with that mobile carrier. So while your ip address will change, who all of those addresses are registered to will not. What I mean is that will your current IP goes back to a US based cell network, you’re not going to get a new IP address that is registered in Japan or even one in the US that is through a completely different network (a few technical exceptions exist, but they’re nevertheless evident). Same with home internet as well. And of course, most work addresses are persistent. All that to say, a claim of “my ip address changes” does not mean that a persona cannot reasonably determine if you’ve contributed to ANI from the a network. ]&thinsp;] 07:17, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::When did I say I stumbled upon this thread? Provide the diff. You are putting words in my mouth and casting aspersions. I said my IP changes as a response to you saying I was a new editor. You are creating an elaborate narrative and getting strangely defensive. ] (]) 07:29, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::I will gladly provide the answe after you answer the two questions I have previously asked to you. First was about KETTLE, and the second asked you to substantiate your claim of {{tq|I've contributed to this notice board hundreds of times}} by providing your last contrustive ip edit to this notice board. ]&thinsp;] 07:40, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::Please read ]. I'm not going to link all of my comments across IPs here for you. If you really believe I was canvassed, you need some diffs, or maybe you should strike your aspersions. ] (]) 07:44, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::::All I can do is laugh at your replies. More KETTLE behavior. You claim don’t have to proof anything per SATISFY, yet in the same breath you demand such of others. More ad hominem, deflection. Zero actual replies. ]&thinsp;] 08:05, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::::What are you talking about? I asked one question, got one answer and it was done. It was you who started a long thread full of bad faith assumptions and no diffs. Provide diffs, or kindly stop bludgeoning. ] (]) 08:37, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{collapse bottom}}
			{{reflist}}
	:You need better sources. If the man is notable, they will exist. <span style="text-shadow:#3333aa 0.10em 0.10em 0.10em"><font color="black">]</font> <sub><span style="text-shadow:#ffd700 0.14em 0.14em 0.14em"><font color="black">]</font></sub></span> 03:53, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
	::@66.246.94.130: Your edit is higly inappropriate. Avoid attacking the closing admin, it never helps an argument. <span style="text-shadow:#3333aa 0.10em 0.10em 0.10em"><font color="black">]</font> <sub><span style="text-shadow:#ffd700 0.14em 0.14em 0.14em"><font color="black">]</font></sub></span> 03:59, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
			===Send to AE?===
	For what it's worth, the ] article cites the Phoenix version of the New Times on multiple occasions, and has for some time despite some controversy on that article's talk page. <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 03:50, 10 October 2010 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
			Given how long this has gone on for, may I make a suggestion? Send this to ] since ANI seems incapable of resolving this, and it falls solidly into the realm of pseudoscience and fringe theories. ] (]) 21:17, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::<ec>Two things. #1, as I listed above, there are plenty of other sources, so if the New Times ''is'' really that bad, we can cope. The discussion about the New Times can happen at ]. #2 Sven, do you have any ] issues with McMahan? Given your relatively short history here (though lots of edits in that time) I figured it would be worth asking just to be sure. I assume you are a returning editor going for a ], but the COI think also seems possible. ] (]) 04:01, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
	::::Nope, no COI. I have the unfortunate habit of unknowingly stepping into existing conflicts, (see the above ANI that I posted in) but this is more of a "I saw something wrong and went after it" sort of thing. As to my knowledge, I have been editing Misplaced Pages since 2006. I only got an account recently because I spent three months abroad and away from Misplaced Pages, and came back to a new review system, a dramatic increase in semi-protections, and an overall less condusive atmosphere towards IP editing. Before getting the account, I never used automated tools or participated in ANI or AFD, although I did launch one SOCK investigation from my iPhone. Hence my large general knowledge and low specific knowledge. Also I seem to bite off more than I can chew and have terrible spelling, but again, no COI. If you want to give me guideance on anything, please feel free to do so. <span style="text-shadow:#3333aa 0.10em 0.10em 0.10em"><font color="black">]</font> <sub><span style="text-shadow:#ffd700 0.14em 0.14em 0.14em"><font color="black">]</font></sub></span> 04:35, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
			:Another claim that civility complaints are treated differently in "the realm of pseudoscience and fringe theories".
	:::::The "blogger who appears to be a hack" that Sven speaks of in his "Issue 1" above is , as it says at the end of . Sven, since you referred to Ortega as a "hack", ''he appears to have now returned the favor'' by referring to you in an update to his column as a "minion" (see immediately preceding link, "Update" section). I'd very respectfully suggest that it might help keep drama to a minimum, now that you've made your opinion known, if you were to follow through on the intention you stated when you initiated this thread, and perhaps not continue to participate in this discussion. You're free to do as you think best, of course, and perhaps it'll be necessary for you to comment further, at least briefly. But it would be unfortunate if you (or any individual editor here) were to in any way "become the story". This thread shouldn't be about your opinion of Ortega, or his opinion of you: It needs to remain focused on whether we are to have a McMahan article on Misplaced Pages. &nbsp;–&nbsp;<font face="Cambria">] (])</font> 18:59, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
			:That matches my experience and I'm grateful to the people willing to say it out loud, but surely it would save a lot of drama and forum shopping if someone just wrote it down? - ] (]) 22:01, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			::The IP made no such claim? - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:14, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I thought that was implicit in the request to move the civility complaint to a forum about fringe theories, but you're the expert. - ] (]) 23:30, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::FYI ] is arbitration enforcement, not the Fringe Theories noticeboard. ] (]) 16:12, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::That's what I had thought, but the not logged in guy seems to be saying that a civility complaint should be moved to AE because it's a better venue for "the realm of pseudoscience and fringe theories".
			:::::It's really striking to me that the main argument here is not over whether Hob is civil, it's whether he should have to be. - ] (]) 20:49, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			:As others have noted, being brusque with pseudoscience-pushers is an insignificant offense when compared to agenda-driven editors who are only here to advocate for a fringe topic. Esp. when they have only been editing for a handful of months. ] (]) 23:21, 7 January 2025 (UTC)
	Just a quick note: Tony Ortega did not claim, nor imply, that Misplaced Pages deleted the article "for money". If he did say or imply that, please do let me know, because that's absolutely false and libelous. But I think what he said was also false, and it is worth me saying so plainly. His claim appears to be that McMahan's money allowed him to intimidate Misplaced Pages into deleting the article through legal threats. That's absolutely false. There is no prohibition on creating the article from either the Foundation or me. Whether or not there should be an article about this topic is entirely up to the community in accordance with the usual procedures. I don't recommend having a brawl about it, and of course Newyorkbrad's wise comments should be very thoughtfully considered. For me personally, a big test for this article, and a challenge perhaps difficult to meet, is ]. Beyond that, the article would need to be thoughtful and respectful of human dignity and would have to work really hard to draw conservative conclusions rather than following a single source as if it is the gospel truth.--] (]) 19:23, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
			::While I do agree that from an objective and absolute POV (e.g., of an external user evaluating Misplaced Pages) it is better to have an uncivil but pseudoscience-free Misplaced Pages than a civil but pseudoscientific Misplaced Pages, from a subjective and relative POV (e.g., of editors making internal decisions together) it is impossible to systematically abandon a relatively less important principle on the basis of a relatively more important principle without completely annihilating the less important principle. That's why ] is policy.
			::Moreover, as others have also noted, because WP:CIVIL is a principle that at some point does get acted upon, we would all be better off if no one, on any side of any given debate, would minimize it. ]. <span style="text-shadow:#000 0em 0em 1em">☿&nbsp;] (]&nbsp;])</span> 10:45, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Too much presumption of intent here with regard to 'pseudoscience-pushers'. It is easy for us to diminish our opponents in this way. Civility and NPOV are equal pillars. ] (]) 15:41, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			:<s>I '''second''' to motion to bring this to ].</s> <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 04:03, 8 January 2025 (UTC) -- Open thread below. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 15:39, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			===Topic ban for Lardlegwarmers===
			{{atop|status=Topic ban imposed|1=By the consensus of the Misplaced Pages community, {{u|Lardlegwarmers}} is ] from the topic of COVID-19, broadly construed. - ] <sub>]</sub> 02:27, 14 January 2025 (UTC)}}
			{{userlinks|Lardlegwarmers}}
			A cursory look through this account's contributions has me convinced that they ought not to be contributing to COVID-19 Lab Leak Theory pages, widely construed. More generally, it seems they are using Misplaced Pages as a ] to promote a lot of what I would deem "anti-establishment" claims which necessarily run right up against the ] remit of our encyclopedia. In fact, they are close to being a ] in this regard. Topic ban from American Politics might help reorient their problematic proclivities.
	I thought it would be appropriate to quote what Ortega is saying about Misplaced Pages, since I'm not clear that everyone in the discussion is actually reading his blog post (and just to point out - yes it's a blog post, but also the bloogier who wrote it signs his blog posts "'''Tony Ortega is the editor-in-chief of The ]'''" - for those not aware of the Voice, it is considered a "]," and not just in the wikipedia context<ref>James F. Broderick, Darren W. Miller . ''Consider the Source: A Critical Guide to 100 Prominent News and Information'. Information Today, 2007 ' http://books.google.com/books?id=L0nOaMe91w4C&pg=PA381#v=onepage&q&f=false</ref>.
			] (]) 21:38, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
	From the blog post
			*'''Oppose''' - Seems unnecessary and retaliatory. I say that even considering Hob Gadling a friend of mine. ] (]) 19:29, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support''' The user is basically a ] who looking at their editing history, their basically sole purpose to edit Misplaced Pages is to aggressively POVPUSH about lableak on talkpages, a topic they can't even edit the main page of because they don't have ECP. They're not the only offender, but they are major one. Their contributions are only raising the heat and frankly do not improve the topic area. ] (]) 19:46, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:This is not a SPA. I’ve been editing on Misplaced Pages for a month or two, focusing some of my attention on the lab leak hypothesis because the article itself would benefit from a more balanced presentation of the topic, especially the broader social and political implications of the theory, based on reliable sources. For example, the article's suggestion that the lab leak hypothesis foments racism is simply not verified. Politicians and extremists have taken advantage of the hypothesis for their own reasons, but it's otherwise a viable scientific hypothesis. (https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-57782955) I've been on the talk page helping to sift through a lot of the original research and the sources (a lot of them) that don't actually say what people are alleging they say. Also, I have been trying to find some kind of consensus for filling in the conspicuous gaps where there ought to be information about notable non-scientific events like coverage of the notable U.S. Congress committee that focused on the lab leak idea and made major headlines in the media--and it's completely omitted from the article. I've worked to clean up the articles where they use journalistic sources to verify biomedical information. And I'm dealing with helping to sort out this chronic name-calling where there should be civil dialogue. In a separate topic, I've been working on fixing an obvious BLP violation where the article talk page consensus might be showing a bit of resistance to the site's policy itself. ] (]) 10:35, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support''' pro-fringe single purpose accounts are bad for the project. ] (]) 19:52, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Oppose''' - What exactly is the reason to do this here? If jps wishes to file a vague ANI complaint against LLW (a new editor), there is a legitimate process for that which would look a lot less like witness intimidation. - ] (]) 20:00, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
	:'''UPDATE:''' Misplaced Pages's reason for not wanting a McMahan page? According to one of their minions, I'm a "hack."
			::Your own POV editing is openly in question as well, particularly considering on your talk page with LLW. Statements like this "{{tq|If you are interested in what the FBI knows but can't say, the next six months are expected to bring the release of a great deal more information. Stock up on popcorn I guess. If you want to improve the lab leak article, I don't know what to tell you. As you've noticed there are some deeply rotten things going on and the admins seem afraid to step in}}" very heavily indicates your own POV inclinations regarding scientific topics. ]]<sup>]</sup> 20:14, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
	:The last time, while they were under constant attack by McMahan's lawyers, they pulled down references to our articles because, they said, The Village Voice was not a legitimate source of information for biographies of living people.
			::Note to closer: Palpable is another lableak POVPUSHING SPA. They only made about 70 edits between their account creation in 2006 and 2022, when their editing shifted to be basically solely arguing about lableak on talkpages for over 2 years at this point. ] (]) 20:17, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
	:Say what? I tracked down the Misplaced Pages minion who had written that, who turned out to be an electrical engineer in England. '''He sent me some long explanations about the nature of journalism and what information is reliable. But eventually, I got him to admit that Misplaced Pages was wiping the McMahan page simply through fear. They were afraid of being sued by McMahan, but it was easier to say that the Voice wasn't a legitimate source. You can imagine that my respect for Misplaced Pages took a nosedive at that point.'''
			:::I think you'd find it's a little more complicated than that, but it is not relevant to this discussion. Also, witness intimidation. - ] (]) 20:41, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
	:This time, we get a Misplaced Pages minion saying that McMahan isn't "notable" and that I'm a hack. You can almost smell the fear, can't you?
			::::"Witness intimidation" 😂 so are we now a court of law? His honor, ] is our ]? ] tells us you are an ] that has ]. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 21:44, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
	:Not notable? Well, OK, Misplaced Pages, how's this for notable. It turns out that moneybags McMahan put on a show earlier this year with his new $3 million race car, and unveiled it with the help of 2010's Playmate of the year, Hope Dworacyk. Notable enough for you?
			::::] is not witness intimidation, nor is this a court. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 17:16, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
	:I don't know. Hedge fund kabillionaire, noted "philanthropist," race car dreamer, Westchester County bigwig, and...oh, he married his own daughter in Westminster Abbey. Is that really not notable enough?
			::I'm happy to discuss my background and motivations over email with an admin who has a record of neutrality regarding FTN. - ] (]) 22:06, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
	:'''UPDATE 2:''' And now it's down. Well, we learn once again that Misplaced Pages is afraid of McMahan (which is fine, we don't expect others to take on these kinds of stories), but that they will continue to slime the Voice as their reason for taking down information about him.
			:::This is at ANI, so it should be discussed at ANI. "I'll only discuss it in secret" is not how things are played here. - ] <sub>]</sub> 05:01, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
	:'''For the benefit of Misplaced Pages editors, who still may not understand this situation, the Voice is doing things the old-fashioned way here. We are reporting what court documents revealed about a relationship between a very notable super-rich old guy who abused his grown daughter for years. Those facts are contained in court documents which are available here and elsewhere. Normally, that is the bedrock of what Misplaced Pages considers legitimate sourcing. In this case, however, McMahan's money talks.'''
			::::Noted, thanks. - ] (]) 05:43, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
	(emphasis added)
			*'''Support''' They have openly stated, as I linked above, their purposes of pushing information that the scientific community is "trying to cover up". Their POV pushing is blatant and reinforced by them being an SPA in this topic area. A topic ban would be a potential stopgap to hopefully have them actually become a proper constructive editor, rather than just outright banning them for their clear ] activities. So, if anything, a topic ban is much more merciful than the alternative. ]]<sup>]</sup> 20:11, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:Silverseren is heavily involved in the underlying dispute. I have never said that there is "information that the scientific community is 'trying to cover up', just that there was never a thorough investigation and the debate is ongoing or inconclusive (https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-57782955) (https://www.wissenschaftstehtauf.ch/Inside_the_Virus-Hunting_Nonprofit_at_the_Center_of_the_Lab-Leak_Controversy_Vanity_Fair.pdf), that we ought to remove or attribute the sources we use whose authors have a direct relationship with the facility that the theory implicates (https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7445685/ "Shi herself and the WIV itself have an obvious conflict of interest") and that we won't be including in the article any of the less prestigious, primary sources (e.g., https://www.jpands.org/vol29no1/orient.pdf) nor the non-peer reviewed sources (https://docs.house.gov/meetings/VC/VC00/20230711/116185/HHRG-118-VC00-20230711-SD005.pdf - a U.S. defense laboratory that sequenced the virus and https://www.scienceopen.com/document/read?vid=23853f40-72f5-443a-8f87-89af7fce1a92 - a Bayesian analysis) in support of a lab leak scenario. ] (]) 10:16, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Strong Support''' tban from COVID articles. The editor has ]ed themselves, it seems. SPA consumate. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 15:38, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*I '''support''' in the first place a topic ban from Covid-19 broadly construed, but will also support a tban from COVID-19 Lab Leak Theory in case that narrower ban gets more traction here. ] &#124; ] 10:29, 12 January 2025 (UTC).
			:@], Misplaced Pages being "]" in this context just means that we use the most prestigious source material available to verify our claims. It doesn't tell us to suppress verifiable information just because it would "challenge the status quo" in society. By the way, I am not saying that my account exists "to challenge the status quo". I'm just correcting what might be a misrepresentation on your part as to what that document prescribes for us. I have always used high-quality sources in any of my edits to the main-space articles and used the talk pages to express my concerns about unverified claims. ] (]) 11:18, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Oppose''' I fail to see how this addresses Hob Gadling's chronic and intractable behavioral issues. ] (]) 17:33, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support''' – weak support for TBAN from COVID-19 overall, strong support for COVID-19 Origins, broadly construed (to include Gain of Function research, Fauci, WIV, etc) - This editor has repeatedly cast ASPERSIONS , has stated several times over that they intend to edit in a POV way to 'correct the biases that are in favor of the democratic party' , has shown a very poor understanding of policy (e.g. trying to advocate for a POVFORK , saying a discussion shouldn't be closed because no one could truly understand how complicated it is ) and a poor ability to assess the content of sources where they have a clear bias, repeatedly hitting others over the head with that ''failure to understand'' (e.g. ]/] ). I think they could probably benefit from editing a less contentious area of Misplaced Pages. (and yes I have participated in some of these discussions involving LLW) —&nbsp;] <sup>(]</sup> <sup>])</sup> 21:21, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:Shibbolethink is heavily involved in the dispute and misinterprets as bludgeoning my consistent opposition to their prolific use of faulty citations. The examples of citations they provided here are a perfect case study in what I had assumed was a good faith misunderstanding but am now convinced must be intentional mis-attribution. None of the links they provided substantiate anything they’re saying. ] (]) 22:17, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support''' – COVID-19 broadly construed. I originally suggested trouts. But Lardlegwarmer’s responses in this section have convinced me that this user has problems with NPOV, DUE, and RS that continue even on AN/I. Perhaps six months editing elsewhere will be of value. And yes, I have been involved. ] (]) 21:47, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:Consensus on a ban proposal is not supposed to include editors that are involved in the underlying dispute. Why are these accounts casting votes?] (]) 22:20, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::Says who? Everyone can comment here. ] (]) 22:28, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::They can comment but the authority to ban comes from a “consensus of editors who are not involved in the underlying dispute” so I’m assuming that means they don’t get a vote(?) ] ] (]) 02:38, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::Actually, I think six of the !votes are from editors who have posted to a Covid article, including two of the three opposes. I don't know about the other pages you listed as I've never heard of most of them. I am involved in one of the seven pages you listed in your filing. But I don't see how I'm involved in the {{tq|underlying dispute}} you have with Hob. The closer can take this all into account. ] (]) 12:50, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::Lardlegwarmers may be right. Palpable's Oppose !vote, in particular, reflects involvement in the Covid lab leak dispute and should be disregarded. ] (]) 22:40, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::The criteria of having simply posted to a COVID article does not serve as a threshold for being in a dispute with lard leg warmers. If a vote is to be disregarded for its caster's fulfillment of being involved in a dispute with lard's POV-pushing, then a talk page discussion, diffs should be linked for certain proof. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 15:35, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::Echoing @]'s statement. I understand how it can be seen as problematic (also why I'm not voting), but that's not the standard. Furthermore, if it was, that would equally disqualify @] and @]. (It shouldn't, just to be clear, but just making sure that's documented if we're going down this road.) ] (]) 21:56, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support''' Covid-19 T-ban. Their behaviour here smacks of "Them vs. everybody". ] (]) 22:33, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:I understand your sentiment, but what am I expected to do when all these editors are directly invoking my name and mischaracterizing my behavior and using sanction-gaming to push me out of a contentious discussion? ] (]) 02:41, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support'''. Surprised the CIVILPOV-pushing edit requests flooding my COVID watchlist this past month didn't result in a tban earlier. ] (]) 03:57, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:Well it would have spoiled all the fun, since a CIVILPOV guy is apparently fair game to use as target practice for ad hominems in the talk page ] (]) 10:43, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support''' given the behavior in this area of editing. And before you reply, Lardle, I suggest you read ]. You don't need to comment on every !vote here.
	I'm sticking my nose in because I find this particular incident fascinating on many levels. The collision between journalism & wikipedia, ''and'' the awful, awful story that this whole discussion is about.
			:— <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 17:18, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
			=== Proposals re Hob Gadling and civility ===
	You guys should really get a handle on your "minions" =)
			{{atop
	] (]) 02:44, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
			| result = There is no consensus for a block or any other sanction at this time. Everyone is reminded that ] is a core policy of Misplaced Pages. ] (]/]) 18:30, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
	{{reflist}}
			}}
	:And yet, the identity of this "minion", their source of said "minion's" information, the reason their word (if it was ever actually given) should be believed, or why it's impossible any of the '''other''' provided reasons would not justify any particular course of action, remain mysteries. I was tempted to just slap a bunch of <nowiki>{{fact}}</nowiki> tags in the above, but re-factoring someone else's comments is a ''faux pas''. Between several plausible and supported motives versus unsubstantiated hearsay, I think it's fairly obvious what further discussion should be predicated on. - ] (]) 22:46, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
			{{userlinks|Hob Gadling}}
	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knO5Ad7cD0M is this an appropriate source? <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 07:05, 10 October 2010 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
			There are concerns about ] regarding this editor's behaviour. Should a ] be in order? A ]? Or an ] when addressing other users? The community will decide.
	===]===
	As long as this is being discussed, someone should have a look at . I reverted, but perhaps the IP who made it should be dealt with and a revdelete imposed. Also, please examine the link to the Village Voice story recently inserted. Admins should watchlist. --] (]) 17:17, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
	:I've revision deleted that edit, and a similar edit to the talkpage. I gave the IP a final warning, as the edits were from several hours ago. They have, however, already had one block for a similar (deleted) edit. If someone else feels a block here is warranted they'll get no objection from me. I haven't looked at the Village Voice link yet. ] 17:27, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
	::Please take a look at the talk page history. The libelous edit summary is still live. IMO the talk page should be deleted entirely. Also please look at the link to the Voice story in the article. Perhaps that should be revdeleted, too. --] (]) 17:33, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
	:::Edit summaries have been deleted as well, now - thanks for catching that. I'm still catching up with the Village Voice link/ref. ] 17:37, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
	::::It's a link to the same Voice story mentioned in the first post of this thread containing the accusations against McMahan. It's not relevant to the Cristina Foundation. --] (]) 17:41, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
	:::::Agreed, and I've revrted it and semi-protected the article. I ''have not'' revision-deleted the Village Voice ref, however. (I may yet, and have no objection to anyone else doing so). ] 17:44, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
			<span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 15:44, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
	::::::Further to this issue, some time after TWOFRs post an on the articles Talk Page to a YouTube video alledgedly about "Bruce McMahaon's dark past". I have and related comments - ] ]<sup>]</sup> 19:43, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
			:<s>'''Support 1 month block''' – Hob needs an ultimatum, and the behaviour, even though they're right much of the time, is unacceptable per ].</s> <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 15:51, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::This feels ]. ] (]) 18:03, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{collapse top|extended discussion}}
			:::Sure it would be. As ] once ]: "Consequences." <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 18:19, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::]. ] <sup>(]) (])</sup> 18:46, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::When ] shot ] in '']'', was that punishment? Or was that the ''consequence'' of Bill Skarsgard acting in a contentious manner and engaging in general buffoonery, conducting himself way out of place and S(crew)A(round)+F(ind)O(ut)? You conflate "punishment" with there being consequences for tomfoolery. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 18:55, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::We're discussing this on Misplaced Pages, not John Wick: Chapter 4, so I'm not sure how that has any relevance.<br>Also, that sounds exactly like a punishment to me. ] <sup>(]) (])</sup> 18:59, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::I'm disappointed you can't understand ]. 😔 <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 19:09, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::I suppose that, say, per example, a ] who edits their respective topics is "punished" when the consequences (block) start to kick in for their general bothersomeness? Look, we can have a whole schpeel about what the ], or we can subvert expectations and be really straightforward about a subtle subject. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 19:17, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{collapse bottom}}
			*'''Oppose block''' I don't think this is a sanctionable level of incivility. I'd be ok with sending them a trout. ] (]) 18:08, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Oppose block''' Hob is a long term contributor most often engaged in the thankless task of keeping fringe nuttery from overtaking a range of obscure articles. I don't see a history of problematic incivility that would warrant a block. ] (]) 18:22, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support block''' as per BarntToust. Over the years I've seen the editor be rude and borderline bully, if not outright. It doesn't reflect well on Wiki.] (]) 18:40, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{anchor|HOB edit restriction}}
			* A 1 month block is not likely to change long-term behavior, and would only amount to punishment. That's why we don't do temporary blocks in cases like this. Rather, something is needed that will force Hob to adjust their behavior if they want to continue to edit. An indef block would do it, but seems over the top. One alternative would be an ]. What about:
			:{{tqb|Hob Gadling is prohibited from commenting on other editors' intellectual capabilities, including but not limited to other editors' reasoning skills, their ability to evaluate evidence, and their capacity to identify nonsense. This restriction may be appealed after 12 months on ].}}
			:Of course Hob would be free to point out that a source is not RS, that something is not supported by a source, that this or that position is ], or anything else related to the editorial process, but they would be prohibited from commenting on other editors' ''ability'' to come to such conclusions for themselves.
			{{collapse top|some of the diffs above to which this would apply|bg=LightGray}}
			{{collapse bottom}}
			:I think this would solve a lot of the civility problems we see in the diffs. <span style="text-shadow:#000 0em 0em 1em">☿&nbsp;] (]&nbsp;])</span> 19:13, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Should we apply the same strict civility standards to ] (]) 19:28, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{collapse top|extended discussion}}
			:::]. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 19:31, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::No. ] (]) 19:32, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::"I am your father." <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 19:35, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::General complaints with the direction of the project and bemoaning that we ain't a ] don't exactly scream "ur contribs and opinions are BS" like they do w/ Hob. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 19:38, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::I just think it's a little rich for someone whose semi-retirement comment bemoans "incompetent editors" at some length to be the person to propose a specific instruction that another editor be {{tq|prohibited from commenting on other editors' intellectual capabilities}}. Glass houses, stones, all that. ] (]) 19:45, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::Yeah. I'm glad they didn't direct this at anyone specific, though. I've seen people complain that the ] is misappropriating funds to be a charity instead of a web hosting organisation, but long my five years of editing here have been since I've seen anyone with the audacity to take it directly to ] or the accounts of the ]. (I mean, for the most of the years as an IP it's been semi-protected but hey ain't seen anything about it in the Signpost). <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 19:53, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::I mean, as long as nobody is being directly addressed in ''any'' scenario of any complaint, whether its Foundation business or Meritocracy grievances or words about the intellectual capacities of editors with opposing viewpoints, and its kept broad and generalised about the ''overall'' direction of the project, it's like trying to hold recourse against an editor for having a "I think Democrats are slandering ] on Misplaced Pages" userbox vs. the editor actually going out in the wild to ] a Democrat over their position in a discussion on ]. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 19:58, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::Unfortunately for this case, there's diffs galore of Hob going out of their way to call others' opinions and mental capacities bullshit and dull, and thus we are here. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 20:00, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{collapse bottom}}
			:::Oh I deal with the same problems Hob does, believe me. Many around here do. ] is a thing, and yes, I personally believe it should be enforced much more vigorously. But no, I generally don't comment on other editors' intellectual capabilities in discussions. Most editors do not. If you want to discuss this further, please do so at my user talk. <span style="text-shadow:#000 0em 0em 1em">☿&nbsp;] (]&nbsp;])</span> 20:04, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::And those words, editors, are the summary of the conclusion drawn at the above "extended discussion" CT. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 20:09, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Oppose block''' Obviously punitive. We don't do that. ] 19:20, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*Strongly '''oppose block''' per my ]. ] &#124; ] 19:25, 13 January 2025 (UTC).
			*<s>'''Support editing restriction''' ].</s> <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 19:29, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Oppose''' as I've seen worse stuff going on than "{{tq|bullshit}}". <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 15:36, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			* '''Oppose''' any sanctions on Hob Gadling - I'm not seeing any clear sanctionable misbehavior here. ] ] 20:11, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Oppose''' Punitive. ] (]) 21:53, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Oppose''' Just not seeing it as sanctionable. As an aside, the four (count them four) collapses in this filing are an example of why I prefer AE. ] (]) 22:12, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Strong oppose''' per Pppery, O3000 etc. Tired of efforts to sanction good editors based on concepts of civility which are overly formalistic and don't duly assign weight to context (in my opinion, of course). ---] ] 23:13, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Oppose'''- I also see no obvious justification for a block. ] ] 10:18, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support''' formal warning or 1 week block as per discussion above. It now also looks that there has been some 'coordinated editing', with all editors aligned to one POV on Covid lab leak page coming out to place ban on OP for reporting this uncivil behaviour. This was bad ban by {{ping|The Bushranger}} who failed to recognise malign influence of small but well coordinated group of POV editors, who damage the project. ] (]) 20:01, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:Or, "unconfirmed conspiracies are ] and there's nothing more to it than that", y'know. Have you even read the screed Lard leg warmers added to their page? I mean, seriously? ] says that this is ], but, y'know, fringe is fringe, and if being a "small but well coordinated group of POV editors" is what you get for adhering to veracity, then Lord help us. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 20:18, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:{{tq|malign influence of small but well coordinated group of POV editors}} And you're complaining about another editor's uncivil behavior? Okay... ] (]) 22:46, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::Yes, I am referring to them as group, and I am claiming here, on administrator talk page, '''which is for these complaints''', that they are coordinated, most likely '''off-wik'''i. The vote to ban is not truly representative of community. ] (]) 07:02, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Oppose Block''' - send trouts instead. sometimes getting exasperated in a project is different than actual bad-faith edits. if a long-term pattern of incivility, more punitive measure coudl be warranted. diffs brought up don't seem that bad, though they could have been more civil. ] (]) 20:15, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			*could '''support apaugasma's suggestion'''. seems useful. ] (]) 20:17, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			*: {{tq|"Hob Gadling is prohibited from commenting on other editors' intellectual capabilities, including but not limited to other editors' reasoning skills, their ability to evaluate evidence, and their capacity to identify nonsense"}} is far too vague for an editing restriction. The problem is "including but not limited to"; if the restriction ended after the word "capabilities" you might have something you could work with (though I would still oppose it). ] 22:54, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::Isn't everyone prohibited from commenting on other editors' intellectual capabilities? <b style="font-family:monospace;color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 01:21, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::: Not necessarily. If I am editing, say, a scientific article, and am forever having to revert an editor who is making errors because they don't understand the subject, it is not a violation of civility to point out that they need to go away and learn about it ''before'' trying to edit again. The rather woolly restriction above would stop someone from doing even that. ] 13:43, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::Black Kite is right on point. Problem is Hob can't do that without highly personal comments of people not being , lacking , being prone to believe in views and , etc. Also, I'm fairly confident that if Hob were restricted from pointing out incompetence, someone else would do so in a civil way. <span style="text-shadow:#000 0em 0em 1em">☿&nbsp;] (]&nbsp;])</span> 15:35, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::This is why the editing restriction is appealable, this editing restriction is not necessary on regular editors, but appears necessary for them. ] (]) 09:30, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Oppose''' Clearly not sanctionable, and hardly even uncivil, especially when viewed in the context of the discussions. At most maybe awarding a barn-trout (is there such a thing?) that celebrates that he didn't actually loose his cool and become uncivil, while at the same time, being rather offputting and feeding the POV-troll. ]&thinsp;] 07:19, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Strong oppose''' per Bish. The day we start punishing good contributors for not having a constantly saintly response to awful ] POV-pushers is the day this project goes to hell. ''']''' <sup>(] - ])</sup> 12:07, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:We do all the time, our civility policies do not care if you are right in a discussion or good contributors. You are way off the mark in your general assessment. ] (]) 14:58, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::Indeed, it's even ''part of the civility policy'' (]). - ] <sub>]</sub> 22:25, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::I'm well familiar with civility guidelines and that being right doesn't exclude you from them. The point is that we should not mete out sanctions, let alone a ''month block'' in situations where there is an occasional display of imperfection when responding to POV pushing - especially considering per the comment above what is being replied to. If this was a genuine ] breach I'd support sanctions but I have not seen anything from Hob above that meets that. ''']''' <sup>(] - ])</sup> 23:42, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::Again you seem to be factoring in them being right with your justification because it was responding to POV pushing. Also no one expects perfection, just to do better. The bar is already so low, lets not encourage limbo. ] (]) 01:52, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''By all means ]'''. We should all strive to be nicer and not personalize. Believe me, I understand that it is hard in these contexts. ] (]) 13:31, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Oppose block''': I loathe incivility from “]” contributors being excused because the person on the receiving end “]” and/or they’re “]” to risk losing. But a block for getting curt with someone pushing fringe nonsense seems extraordinarily petty. This is '''''not''''' an endorsement of Hob Gadling‘s behavior, but I cannot imagine why anyone would find these remarks sanctionable. ] (]) 06:09, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Oppose any sanction''', I've probably used bullshit myself on a number of occasions and probably worse. I'm not seeing anything in the diffs that rises to the level of requiring sanctions. '']''<sup>]</sup> 10:12, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
			=== Proposed Hob Gadling Editing Restriction by Apaugasma ===
	===External publicity===
			{{atop
			| result = There is no consensus to impose an editing restriction. ] (]/]) 18:31, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			}}
			{{userlinks|Hob Gadling}}
	This whole sorry mess is now being posted about on Reddit, which has an unfortunate habit of publicizing "interesting" Misplaced Pages vandalism - see discussion and be sure to view the image linked at the top of the discussion page, which is visible to anyone who sees the link on Reddit's front page. When we spend our time dickering about what we should do instead of just nuking the offensive material, ''this is how the world sees us''. That's apart from the harm being done to a living person (again, see image linked in the discussion there), which is horrendous and irreversible. This whole lengthy discussion did nothing to prevent either issue - whereas immediately deleting the BLP-violating material and reconsidering it afterward would have prevented it. One ounce of action beats any amount of debate, every time. <span style="white-space:nowrap">— ] (])</span> 02:56, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
			{{tqb|Hob Gadling is prohibited from commenting on other editors' intellectual capabilities, including but not limited to other editors' reasoning skills, their ability to evaluate evidence, and their capacity to identify nonsense. This restriction may be appealed after 6 months at ].}}
	* The original Reddit link to the Village Voice article, from yesterday: http://www.reddit.com/r/WTF/comments/dooud/rich_guy_has_an_affair_with_daughter_gets_called/ - as you can see, they're pretty miffed about this guy's behaviour. This is what a person who claims to be the original editor of the Bruce McMahan article says about it:
			Hob Gadling is permitted to comment that a source is not RS, that something is not supported by a source, that this or that position is ], or anything else related to the editorial process, but prohibited from commenting on other editors' ''ability'' to come to such conclusions for themselves, enforceable with blocks. ] (]) 09:11, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:'''Support''' Great contribution is not a get-out-of-jail free card from ] & ], complying with this editing restriction should not be difficult. ] (]) 09:16, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
	<blockquote>
			:this is already being debated above. thought we generally shouldnt make multiple RFCs in a single section like this anyways? ] (]) 14:06, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	Thank you for linking to Tony's article. I'm glad to see this scumbag's past dredged up again.
			:'''Oppose''' because this is inane, petty, bordering on ]-esque. You can’t log an editing restriction that amounts to “Don’t be uncivil” because that should be the default. ] (]) 06:13, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
			===Suspected off-wiki coordination in COVID-19 lab leak topic===
	I can offer some possibly interesting perspective on this incident. I was the Misplaced Pages editor who first created the Bruce McMahan page several years ago. I used the original Broward/Palm Beach New Times articles as my main source and was even nice enough to not call him out on his mail-order PhD.
			{{atop|status=]|1=IntrepidContributor was warned to strike their accusation and take any evidence of ] to ArbCom. They have not done the former, and by all accounts (see HJMitchell's comment below) has not done the latter either. Instead, they appear to have ], followed up with another handful, and then come down with ] when called to ]. There's ''very'' strong consensus below for a ], and the consensus appears to be a ] from COVID-19, broadly construed, and a ] until they agree to retract their accusations. - ] <sub>]</sub> 04:04, 18 January 2025 (UTC)}}
			It appears there is off-wiki coordination between POV editors going back many years in this topic. It is easy to spot this because complaints of non-neutral wording and unbalanced sourcing are frequent over years and from varied editors, while responses always the same and from same group of editors, often ending up in administrator talk boards like this resulting in quick ban by passing admin unaware of this dynamic. Calls for neutrality rarely ask for more than slightly more neutral wording (like not using wikivoice to describe "misplaced suspicion" in lab leak theory due to outbreak's proximity to lab ), and responses always cursory and blunted, and often even uncivil, which is why OP started this discussion. It common for these editors to immediately start threatening sanctions as soon someone comes near topic asking for more neutral coverage, making it impossible for progress without RFC on every tiny point. It is required for administrators to review coordinated editing in this topic. ] (]) 07:23, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Let be caution you to not draw undue attention to yourself in these discussions, not because there is some grand conspiracy, coordination or cabal at work. Rather because it will cause people to being to look into some of your questionable editing behaviors. This is especially true as it seems like you're doubling-down on your position shared with a now TBAN'ed user, while casting grand aspirations of off-wiki coordination. However, if you have an actual accusation to present formally, please start a new section and be prepared to ''provide evidence'' (especially in the form of diffs) and not simply broad claims. Without such, there is no more a claim you might have to editors coordinating to work against your position, than might be said of editors who you align with that have been blocked or banned from FT topics. Please take a moment and look over ] and let me again caution you against boomerang, which LW learned the hard way. And lets you be tempted like Palpable above, this is not a threat, but please take it as intended, which is a friendly, AGF, suggestion to consider how you proceed from here, as your self-perspective of the situation does not reflect the actual reality of the situation. ]&thinsp;] 08:20, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
	Once the article entered Google and became a first-page hit for "Bruce McMahan", Bruce's hired gun from the law firm of Liner Grode Stein Yankelevitz Sunshine Regenstreif & Taylor LLP (www.linerlaw.com) emailed me proposing changes to the article. What a fuck up! The idiot didn't even know he could edit the article himself. I ignored him.
			:It might actually be {{tqq|easy to spot this}} because we're all so very, very used to the same old song and dance from POV-pushers by this point, can spot them coming from a mile away, and know that "neutrality" is the last thing they actually want. ] explains this very well - as does ]: {{tqq|There is no cabal conspiring against you unless you created it}}. - ] <sub>]</sub> 09:29, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
	Bruce's PR firm wised up, and vandals began blanking the page. I kept restoring it, and we went back and forth. His PR firm soon figured out that they could actually re-write the pages instead of vandalize them. A resume was posted over the article. When I and several editors pushed back, several new but deeply concerned editors began inserting outright lies then tried to weaken the language of the daughter-fucking incident and bury it under mounds of glowing hagiography. They accused me and a handful of editors as being members of a conspiracy to destroy Bruce. One of his daughters even jumped in with a ridiculously long apologia in the discussion page. The volume of edits and sock puppets knocked the fight out of me, but a handful of other editors kept up and actually expanded the article to cover far more of the daughter-fucking incident than my original stub.
			::It would be easy to spot if you read dispute where there is actual RfC where consensus (so far) clearly leans in the way of the editor you call POV pusher. Perhaps it was too much for me to ask that you read the diffs properly instead of taking the complaint on face value, but I expect more of you as an admin. ] (]) 13:18, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::If you could provide diffs or links for your claim of off-wiki collusion that would help. Circumstantial evidence and asking editors to read between the lines isn't very useful. -- <small>LCU</small> ''']''' <small>''«]» °]°''</small> 13:22, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Are you being facetious? Off-wiki coordination is by definition, off-wiki, and diffs are not possible. This is an administrator noticeboard diffs are not the only admissible form of evidence. ] (]) 13:40, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::{{tq|This is an administrator noticeboard}}, clearly, yes it is, that and that only. The evidence required to prove off-wiki collusion should be sent to ], because off-wiki business can't be brought here because, many reasons, though to start, posting reddit links and discord convos usually constitutes a vio of ]. So get off of this noticeboard with problems it is unable to address, and see ]. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 13:43, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::Also, should such evidence exists, don't just open an AE case (again, ]) but rather contact the arbitration committee privately. ] (]) 13:58, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::Coming to ANI about off-wiki collusion compares to a person calling a ] when their plumbing is clogged. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 14:53, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::{{small|]. ]] 22:48, 15 January 2025 (UTC)}}
			::::::::Aha. I refer to calling a welder when plumbing is ''clogged'', not really installed or replaced. Usually when I call the local plumber to unclog my master bathroom toilet, a minimal amount of sparks are produced during their work. <span style="text-shadow: #E9967A 0em 0em 1em;">]]</span> 23:04, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::If you have evidence of off-wiki coordination this should be sent privately to the arbitration committee. If you don't have evidence you never should have opened this thread anyway. Either way the right thing to do is to withdraw this accusation from this venue. ] (]) 13:44, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::You apparently only read "diffs" and not "or links". Unsubstantiated ] shouldn't be anywhere, let alone ANI. If you have any proof take it to ARBCOM per Simonm223. If you don't have ''actual'' proof then you should retract your claim. -- <small>LCU</small> ''']''' <small>''«]» °]°''</small> 14:05, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::So... are ya gonna cast ASPERSIONS or are you gonna send Arbitrarion some links to, idk, discord servers, IRC rooms, anything? Bans—they're what happens when an editor has, nearly a fetish, for trying to include information—at every possible turn—that goes against medical professionals' standpoints. Consensus in the scientific community establishes an idea and discounts another, Misplaced Pages covers the major, non-fringe outlooks on subjects. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 11:54, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			* Don't play devil's advocate for POV-pushers. You get nowhere with it. Unless you have '''damning''' proof that editors are banding together behind-the-curtains in illicit fashion, I encourage you to strike some text using <nowiki><s></nowiki> {{!tq|your unwarranted remarks here}} <nowiki></s></nowiki> <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 13:33, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
	Eventually, Bruce contacted Jimbo Wales, who directly intervened and had an admin settle the debate in favor of scrubbing ALL references to Bruce's daughter fucking from the article. For the next couple of years, the article became a paean to Bruce's charity work with the National Cristina Foundation and other bullshit. Bruce won. It stood this way for a long time until someone noticed that there was a random fluff piece floating around Misplaced Pages and proposed to delete it. Fuck it, I decided, and I voted to kill it.
			* I suggest that {{noping|IntrepidContributor}} should either provide evidence to Arbcom or immediately withdraw this accusation. Either way this topic of discussion should be closed as inappropriate to AN/I. ] (]) 13:31, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Boomerang'''. ] has repeatedly made aspersions and assumptions of bad faith against many editors, both here and in the , none of which are supported by ''any'' evidence whatsoever. Making such baseless accusations the focus of an ANI subsection is a waste of editors' time, and when combined with their disruptive actions elsewhere (''e.g''., ) it indicates that a time-out is required. ] (]) 15:19, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:I want to give them the chance to withdraw their accusation before calling for a boomerang. But if they refuse to do so or just disappear from the thread with the comments out there then, yeah, it's probably that time. ] (]) 15:25, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::We now have , which demonstrates that ] has chosen to triple- (quadruple?) down on their evidence-free aspersions against multiple editors. ] (]) 15:43, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::OK that was doubling down after they got clear instructions about how to handle it from more than one editor here. ] (]) 15:47, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::Instructions? What are you? ] (]) 18:23, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:Sorry for not being clear. By "time-out" I mean a '''topic ban''' from COVID-19, broadly construed. I can understand why the repeated, evidence-free aspersions and assumptions of bad faith, which have yet to be withdrawn, justify an indef. I just don't see how this approach is a benefit to the project. ] (]) 13:58, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Boomerang'''. If it was just this out-of-pocket subsection, I would agree with {{noping|Simonm223}} on giving some time of day, but since Intrepid's ] have been pervasive throughout this report according to {{noping|JoJo Anthrax}}'s motion, and also considering that they ], a boomerang needs to happen so this improper conduct can be addressed. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 15:33, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			*There was ] three years ago. If IntrepidContributor has any evidence they should go to Arbcom for ]. Otherwise, they should retract and ] their aspersions here ASAP. <span style="text-shadow:#000 0em 0em 1em">☿&nbsp;] (]&nbsp;])</span> 15:35, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Boomerang''' After being advised that they should privately contact the arbitration committee this editor instead just spammed the accusation into the comments of an AE filing about someone who shares their POV. This is inappropriate and disruptive. ] (]) 15:48, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Boomerang''' IntrepidContributor was pointed to ] eleven days ago in this filing and knows what it means. This is yet more worthy of a BOOM than the OP. ] (]) 15:53, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:I'd like to give IntrepidContributor one last chance to strike their comment, otherwise I don't see how this can end anyway but badly for them. -- <small>LCU</small> ''']''' <small>''«]» °]°''</small> 16:06, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
	Reddit, I implore you: vote this link up. Get it to the front page. Make Bruce McMahan and other rich people realize that when they try to suppress information with the tools of coercion and deception, free-speech-loving individuals will turn around and blow it up to the stratosphere.
			::Following warnings and warnings about not casting aspersions and making baseless claims of collusion, IntrepidContributor ignored them and to ] anyways. Their chances have run out. <span style="background: cornsilk; padding: 3px;border:.5px solid salmon;">]]</span> 16:15, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
	</blockquote>
			::What comment exactly you would like me to strike? That it "appears" there is off-wiki coordination, or that are POV editors, or it goes back many years? I would be happy to present evidence to arbcom members in private by email, but I think they know already, as do you. ] (]) 18:22, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Based on this answer, yeah, I think the best course of action is to encourage IC to look for other parts of the encyclopedia where they can work collaboratively and to be firmly invited to cease editing anything related to COVID-19. ] (]) 18:25, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::This comment, {{tq|I '''would''' be happy to present evidence to arbcom members in private by email, '''but I think they know already''', as do you}}, makes it sound like you are either bullshitting everyone about having evidence, or you are more worried about running everyone around the corner like dogs at a fire hydrant rather than actually helping out and exposing some serious fuckery that's going on in the topic. <span style="text-shadow: #E9967A 0em 0em 1em;">]]</span> 18:26, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::@] As an uninvolved admin looking over this, I suggest that you either confirm your submission of evidence to ARBCOM or cease your allegations of off-wiki collusion. You've not provided any evidence/diffs for on-wiki collusion and have repeatedly made accusations. This is unacceptable. ] ] ] 18:32, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::How are my supposed to confirm submission of evidence and to who? ] (]) 18:34, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::Damn it, dude, you ARE running us around the bend like dogs at a fire hydrant! As has been instructed for you to do '''numerous times''': Go to the page --> ] <-- and look for the instructions to submit reports, and put your "evidence" there. Confirm that you did so here, <s>and we will ]: whether or not you actually did matters to nobody, because the only thing that will matter is that</s> {{!tq|and}} ''if you did'', a case that is '''none of our concern''' will open, and then if that case finds your "evidence" true, then those of us involved in the conspiracy will be put to arbitration either behind the scenes or at ]. <span style="text-shadow: #E9967A 0em 0em 1em;">]]</span> 18:40, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::Or as the uninvolved Admin notes, an arb will confirm that they have received ''something'' from you, thus this tangent will close. <span style="text-shadow: #E9967A 0em 0em 1em;">]]</span> 18:43, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::Say you've emailed them and I'm sure {{U|ScottishFinnishRadish}} or {{U|HJ Mitchell}} or another arb would be able to confirm receipt of a substantive and meaningful email containing your evidence. If they can confirm it, I would close this discussion. If not, I would look at ] ] ] 18:41, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::Sure, I will email them in the morning (EET). I didn't plan on this extra work load today. But I have enough diffs to make the report by then. ] (]) 18:47, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::You are putting this off as if you have nothing to report. First IntrepidContributor says "I have diffs", then '''present them'''. No, it's "I have off-wiki collusion", then '''go to ARBCOM'''. Cycling back-and-fuckin'-forth between this dog-fire hydrant nonsense, and ''finally'', now we're back at "{{tq|I have enough diffs}}". And you ask, "{{tq|to who}} ?", and after reiterating everything we have said numerously through this thread, you say {{tq|I will email them in the morning}}. You had enough time today to open this thread, then throw a ] of accusations everywhere, and you had enough time to . Yet, you don't have enough time to list diffs and give explanations to the arb committee? I smell a load of horse shit.
			:::::::<br>
			:::::::'''I invite the next uninvolved admin to''' {{!tq|issue a block}} '''to {{noping|IntrepidContributor}} for general ]'''.
			:::::::<br>
			:::::::Yours in ], ], and ], <span style="text-shadow: #E9967A 0em 0em 1em;">]]</span> 19:43, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::@] - by my watch it is now in the afternoon EET (17:55), can you confirm here if you have actually submitted the email earlier today as promised here? ]&thinsp;] 15:56, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::@] @] -- any chance you can confirm if @] has contacted ARBCOM in the last 24 hours? ]&thinsp;] 16:48, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::Nothing in my inbox. ] &#124; ] 17:14, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::I think at this point IC has failed to make good on their "I'll do it in the morning" commitment. And they still decline to withdraw their personal attacks and baseless accusations. ] (]) 12:47, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::{{tq| I would be happy to present evidence to arbcom members in private by email, but I think they know already, as do you.}} This is a direct accusation against an editor here and a nonsensical statement about the arbs. ] (]) 18:53, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::{{tq|as do you}} No I <s>struck</s> don't and I've had enough of being tarred with baseless <s>struck</s>. Whether that's here or at lableak talk page, somewhere I rarely comment on a topic I rarely edit. You appear to only be able to see editors you disagree with through a battleground mentality, and as part of some conspiratorial cabal.
			:::Unless an Arb can confirm that evidence has been provided, and shows something I've obviously missed, I propose IntrepidContributor be '''blocked''' for ] behaviour. -- <small>LCU</small> ''']''' <small>''«]» °]°''</small> 19:12, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Well, they said they think the arbs already know. So I guess they're in on the conspiracy. ] (]) 20:03, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::@], please Read that again in '''''full''''' context. {{tq|What comment exactly you would like me to strike? That it "appears" there is off-wiki coordination, or that are POV editors, or it goes back many years? I would be happy to present evidence to arbcom members in private by email, but I think they know already, as do you.}} This was only a smartass, tongue-in-cheek remark about how "everybody here knows about fight club, but doesn't talk about it". Like, a smartass remark that "POV-pushing and cabals are an open secret knownst to the ]" or something. No arb has been notified, the editor is being a smartass. <span style="text-shadow: #E9967A 0em 0em 1em;">]]</span> 20:10, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::Oh, I read this two ways, I thought you misread their text 😅 you're probably just being funny. lol sorry. The editor still needs a block tho. <span style="text-shadow: #E9967A 0em 0em 1em;">]]</span> 20:18, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::Yes. But at this point, not sure I can tell when they are being serious or trolling. ] (]) 20:24, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::@], @] - I would hope the next uninvolved admin would see that I gave conditions for IntrepidContributor. If those are not met, they will be blocked. There's no rush here and carrying on this discussion calling for blood isn't exactly productive.
			:::::::If another admin find clear and convincing evidence warranting a block of Intrepid Contributor, then they should block them. Otherwise, I'd ask that the "offer" remain. ] ] 20:28, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::I would block them now, @], and I would wait until a member of ARBCOM confirms—not ''what'' IntrepidContributor submitted—but that what they've submitted is '''legitimate evidence of what they claim is happening'''. At that confirmation, and with the ARBCOM member's blessing to the blocking admin, then the editor would be unblocked. The editor is fucking with us even as we outline the processes to make ARBCOM reports, and their other contributions listed in this report such as improper, half-assed deletions they won't bother to complete properly are screaming NOTHERE. <span style="text-shadow: #E9967A 0em 0em 1em;">]]</span> 20:35, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::I agree with BT... <small>''(except the potentially uncivil, but probably warranted uncivil language)...''</small> Beyond this discussion, IC is otherwise being disruptive to the project including blanking pages with a lousy excuse.. Since they had the time to start this discussion that was apparently so urgent and a big deal, yet not the time to complete the necessary paperwork, coupled with all of the other factors, it seems like blocking to prevent further disruption is prudent. ]&thinsp;] 20:54, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::thanks for concurring. As the community has above developed a consensus that an editor using profanity to describe actions and behavior is not prohibited, I'm completely safe in calling IC's behavior shitty (]), so long as I make no direct remarks about IC ''personally''. I don't believe I've done that. <span style="text-shadow: #E9967A 0em 0em 1em;">]]</span> 21:16, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::As Jay said, besides the report, they have been being disruptive in other parts on Misplaced Pages, and considering the fact that they have been disruptive during the very processes of ANI itself, besides the unfounded claims of cabals they spew, there has been enough bullshit going on for a NOTHERE block. <span style="text-shadow: #E9967A 0em 0em 1em;">]]</span> 21:23, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::Evergreen, forgive us our impatience. Some of us spend all too much time in CTOPs. It's wearing. ] (]) 21:11, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::If they show arbs proof of their accusations then fine, otherwise the they need to stop. -- <small>LCU</small> ''']''' <small>''«]» °]°''</small> 21:20, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::My suspicion is that what IC actually has is like 2 diffs of some veteran editor saying to some other veteran editor "hey you should email me!" or something similar. Which is entirely normal, part of the way wikipedia works, and not "off-wiki coordination". Or some similar conspiratorial nonsense. {{pb}}When you're a '''hammer''' (''conspiracy-believing POV-pusher'') everything looks like a '''nail''' (''proof that all the mean people who disagree with you are actually part of a secret government agency that's coordinating against you and laughing about you behind your back''). {{pb}}Nothing that happens on the lab leak page requires or even ''suggests'' there is off-wiki coordination. Where contentious articles exist on wiki, there is almost always a small group of veteran editors who tangentially edit around that topic and watch their watchlists like hawks to make sure POV CPUSHing SPAs don't ruin the beauty that is a truly NPOV contentious article. They don't need to coordinate, because they generally share in common ''a belief in the five pillars'' and edit accordingly.{{pb}}I am really ''very'' excited to see what IC comes up with. —&nbsp;] <sup>(]</sup> <sup>])</sup> 22:20, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::I honestly think what it comes down to is selection bias. The sorts of people who frequent the Fringe Theory noticeboard and who don't get mad and leave quickly tend to be skeptical, critical and materialist. And critical materialist skeptics tend to look negatively on conspiracy theories, pseudo science and quackery. For a conspiracy minded person there's all these like-minded nay-sayers saying variations of "that's a conspiracy theory" and so they... do what conspiracy minded people do and assume it's a conspiracy. Really it's just a messageboard whose topic filters for a certain subjectivity. ] (]) 01:26, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			* '''Boomerang''' I only speak for the quad-corner-tri-city and metro areas cabal, not the greater WP:MEDRS cabal, but I agree a boomerang is in order. ] (]) 08:27, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Boomerang means topic ban''', I presume. But y'all would be better served to make this kind of thing clear in your arguments. My worry when it comes to this matter is primarily with IntrepidContributor's claim of ] functioning rather as something like ] (and apologies for the possible Godwin's Law implications). In any case, and even if that's not what's going on, I have a hard time seeing the net positive in this topic coming from {{userlinks|IntrepidContributor}} and generally think the problems on this topic stem from a lack of strong ] enforcement which hopefully we are now coming to terms with. ] (]) 13:37, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:*:That would be my interpretation. A topic ban is definitely in order. Maybe for all conspiracy theories as well as anything COVID related. ] (]) 13:43, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			::TBan would be appropriate no matter what. But IMO these ongoing accusations should result in an '''indef block''' for NOTHERE. ] (]) 16:18, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Boomerang''' since they clearly did not heed advice to drop the stick and want to persist in their claims, in addition to all of the aforementioned issues. It has now been 20 hours since they posted so far, and I would be very curious to know if they actually did submit the email evidence that they claimed they would {{tq| email them in the morning (EET).}} - It is now 5:54pm (1754) in EET, so if they haven't yet, then it should result in '''indef block for legal threats''' and excessive disruption. If they did fulfill their promise, then a TBAN is still most certainly in order. ]&thinsp;] 15:54, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:Did I miss something, what legal threats? ] (]) 13:44, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::For as much as this goofy goober IC ticks me off, I will give them one, '''one''' note: threatening to send people to the arbcom is not a legal threat. It's a Misplaced Pages "court", not an IRL court. ] doesn't apply here, but a whole heck of a lot of else does. <span style="text-shadow: #E9967A 0em 0em 1em;">]]</span> 13:49, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::Ah okay thanks! ] (]) 13:58, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:Uh, the English Misplaced Pages's Arbitration Committee is not a court of law? <b style="font-family:monospace;color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 18:26, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Block and TBAN already''', this is beyond ] at this point, so have no idea why people are !voting that the editor shouldn't be immune from scrutiny; based on BOOMERANG they never were in the first place, and this discussion went full circle boomerang instantly. Anyway, this has ] reading this section, I can only assume the other sections also wasted a lot of time. The editor is clearly being disruptive, casting aspersions, and is wasting everyone's time. Please don't allow this editor to drag this on any further than it already has been dragged out, such as requesting delays from ARBCOM to provide evidence or otherwise. ] (]) 17:33, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			*<Final Jeopardy music plays> I can't help but notice that IntrepidContributor has gone quiet since promising to expose the cabal to Arbcom... - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:24, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:You too, huh? Shall we ping someone uninvolved for a block due to legal threats and general disruption, or are you ready to do the deed? ]&thinsp;] 23:28, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:@], I endorse you making the block on IntrepidContributor for NOTHERE and DISRUPTIVE. <span style="text-shadow: #E9967A 0em 0em 1em;">]]</span> 23:32, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:See ]. -- <small>LCU</small> ''']''' <small>''«]» °]°''</small> 23:42, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
			===Dinglelingy===
	So, yes, thanks for caving to the guy with the money, Misplaced Pages. ] (]) 12:30, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
	:When do I get my money, and how much will I get? ] 12:39, 10 October 2010 (UTC)		{{atop|1=No edits to mainspace since 2016. Blocked as ]. - ] <sub>]</sub> 10:03, 16 January 2025 (UTC)}}
			(Should we continue to keep all similar issues documented in the same monster section?)
			{{userlinks|Dinglelingy}}
	::Again, to be clear, I have nothing to do with this. Bruce did not contact me, I did not intervene. There is no prohibition by me or the Foundation on creating an article on this topic, and never has been.. Years ago, Brad Patrick had conversation with some people about this; he may be able to explain more if he is interested. But he did not, to my knowledge, intervene back then. As always, I am a strong proponent of WP:BLP and WP:RS - those policies are clearly relevant here.--] (]) 21:49, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
	*As for what Tony Ortega thinks of us: . ]] 22:20, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
			This ] seems to dip in and out of this controversy whenever things get "interesting", and here comes now again dipping in with some fairly spicy arguments on the Lab Leak theory talkpage: ,
	=== Insufferably long comment ===
			None of this user's contributions in this area are net positives for Misplaced Pages, and I submit that it would have been better had the proposed ] block been enacted when first proposed: . I guess a topic ban from COVID-19 could work too?
	I believe I've now discovered and examined all or nearly all the articles and web sources that are at all relevant: I've probably sifted through and read well over 200 pages, including court documents. I do not choose to provide my opinion of the facts presented in the media; other editors can examine the available evidence for themselves. I will say, however, that I don't think it's a worthwhile or justifiable exercise to attempt to shoot the media messengers in this instance. Nor do I think it's useful (or appropriate) for any of us to try to stand in moral judgment, based on our interpretation of the facts we have available. If anyone here finds he can't refrain from doing so, can't think of or discuss this issue without moral indignation coloring his thinking, and related ones available on the web may be of considerable use. The suggestion is not to be construed as indicating any opinion about the facts that have been presented on either side in this matter.
			] (]) 02:07, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
	A procedural note is probably in order. While the article was in , a user tagged it under ], and it was, in fact, deleted as a "speedy". While that tagging was no doubt made in all good faith, the article probably didn't meet G4 since the just-deleted article has been described as being very negative, while the previously deleted version (]) was anything but: it was described as having been "whitewashed", and as a vanity piece. CSD G4 specifically "excludes pages that are not substantially identical to the deleted version".
			* 115 edits ever, and only 4 minor ones to article space. Last seen arguing on the talkpages of COVID conspiracy articles in 2021 for which they were warned multiple times, and back after four years doing the same thing ? That's the definition of ]. Indeffed. ] 08:38, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
	Some of the "external publicity" about this has already been mentioned and even quoted. There's a very great deal of it, and it appears this thread is being followed pretty closely in some corners of the web. ( A good reason for choosing one's words deliberately here, I think. ) As might be expected, some people are hoping for and trying to promote a "]", and others believe just as strongly that the allegations should never have been published at all. There has been some suggestion of a conflict of interest re one editor along with a corresponding reference to a previously disclosed real-life identity ( I do not say "credible" suggestion, note ) and there's a different, previously-involved editor who has expressed great indignation off-site at what he sees as the improper suppression of this article. That editor has made accusations that target that indignation back to Misplaced Pages; and it's my opinion that it wouldn't be very extraordinarily improper ask him whether he might have some potential conflict of interest, given certain individual factors. I mention this not because I think it needs to be investigated (I don't) but because I think it's appropriate that editors should be forewarned of it. Each side in this conflict is sure it holds the moral high ground, each side just knows it's on the side of the angels.
			{{abot}}
			{{abot}}
			== User:Bgsu98 mass-nominating articles for deletion and violating ] ==
	As I see the question, there are two distinct ways we can decide whether to have an article about this. We can base a decision on rules, or we can base a decision on values.
			*{{userlinks|Bgsu98}}
			Hello! Sorry if this isn't the right place to post this.<br />
	If we're to base our decision on rules then I think Jimmy is exactly right that it comes down to ]. That question resolves to (a) whether McMahan is ''also'' ] in our very-specific and admittedly idiosyncratic sense of the word on Misplaced Pages for his race-car development, his success as a hedge-fund manager, his wealth, or his philanthropy, OR (b) whether the coverage about the father-daughter controversy has been broad-enough and persistent-enough in ] to call for inclusion in Misplaced Pages. If either condition (a) or (b) is met then our rules dictate that a carefully-written, non-sensational article that includes the topic currently at issue here should not be deleted.
			I noticed an editor named {{u|Bgsu98}} who had been mass-nominating figure skater articles for deletion. It is too obvious to me that he doesn't do even a minimum search required by ] before nominating. (I must note that most of the skaters he nominates for AfD aren't English, so a foreign language search is required. Sometimes you need to search on a foreign search engine. For example, Google seems to ignore many Russian websites recently.)<br />I have counted 45 articles nominated by him at ]. And it is worrying that people seem to rely on the nominator's competence and vote "delete" without much thought.
			I should note that {{u|Bgsu98}} doesn't seem to stop even when an article he nominated has been kept. He nominated ] (a national medalist) two times with the same rationale (]). One can really wonder why he does this.
	In the course of looking into the question, I saw a great many mentions re "condition (a)" about McMahan. That's it exactly: there were a great many ''mentions'' re that condition. The NY Times mentioned the sale of a $30 million condo (furnishings and artwork included), Playboy mentioned his race car development, some trade publications mention his work as a hedge-fund manager, there were a few mentions of his philanthropy, and one or two of his great wealth. I saw nothing in-depth about these topics, however, no "feature" articles about McMahan in any of these contexts or roles. It's possible I missed something, of course, but I tried carefully to be thorough. It's a borderline case, a judgment call, and I'm not going to argue the point with anyone, but it's my view that McMahan's notability apart from the one big issue that's current is probably not sufficient to warrant an article.
			P.S. More information is here: ]. What happened is that the notability guidelines for some sportspeople were changed a few years ago. And a large chunk of figure skater articles (most of them, honestly) are now outside of ]. It seems that no one acted on this change until {{u|Bgsu98}} came.
	So what about "condition (b)", then? Well, there's a great deal of material, multiple articles, from Village Voice, and the follow-up official blogs. ( The New Times in other locations is also Village Voice Media, btw, as I understand it. ) And there are two articles in the New York Post that I know of: one essentially follows after the Village Voice and one introduces denials and counter-accusations against the long-lost daughter, made by a different daughter and (same) half-sister. A lot of editors will disapprove of the Village Voice and the New York Post, of course, because their respective editorial outlooks don't suit. I have nothing to say about that, but it's my opinion that they're both reliable sources, have sufficient editorial oversight, etc. There will be editors here who disagree with that, of course, but I think any such debate would be moot. A case could be made that it's due to McMahan's success in getting civil lawsuits sealed in multiple jurisdictions, perhaps quite a strong case, too, but for whatever reason I was unable to discover any other reliable sources that touched this story. The Village Voice directly addresses the issue, of course, this apparent lack of extensive coverage elsewhere, but the fact remains. Oh, there was a new story today in English at thaindian.com, too. That's all I'm aware of: It's my overall opinion that our condition (b) probably isn't met, either.
	What, then, if we base our decision on values? Before I really looked at this in-depth, I was sure that the "values" decision had to come down in favor of having an article: I completely understood the great indignation that the Editor of the Village Voice has expressed. I'm fairly sure I still do understand that, actually. I would almost certainly feel the way he does, were I in his shoes. But I can't work myself into the same state of indignation after looking at this as closely as I now have. There's no moral high ground here, in my view; the angels aren't on anyone's side. They're probably all just quietly weeping somewhere. Whatever you believe about the facts presented, whether you believe in guilt or innocence or some combination of the two for the accused or accusers, what we have here are terrible, devastating personal consequences, a real tragedy. If we're going to base our decision about this on values, then it seems morally right to me to leave the personally involved to suffer through the grief of this as best they can without all of us here shining a spotlight their way. I realize that others may disagree in perfect good faith, of course, but that's my view of this matter. Best, &nbsp;–&nbsp;<font face="Cambria">] (])</font> 14:51, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
	:This strikes me as an exceptionally thoughtful, well-reasoned, and empathetic comment. Regards, ] (]) 18:09, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
	::Indeed. Amazing. Makes me proud to be a Wikipedian.--] (]) 23:45, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
	:::Fully supporting Ohiostandard, after spending an hour or so familiarizing myself with the previous article versions and some of the online articles. And i'm an inclusionist. —] (] • ]) 00:31, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
	:Ohiostandard makes a good case that the article falls into a "grey zone" of notability, between articles that pretty unambiguously need deleting and those that pretty unambiguously need keeping. Within this grey zone we have a collective choice, and Ohiostandard raises the issue of "values". I'd suggest that there are two concrete things to inform the choice: i) ] (the fewer sources there are on a BLP subject, the more a Misplaced Pages article takes on the qualities of a news source rather than an encyclopedia - especially in view of Misplaced Pages's typically high Google ranking) ii) the notion of the "]". Within the grey zone, we're balancing a subject's desire for privacy with the public's right to know. The moral strength of the latter depends on the interest involving more than prurience; for example, it's more reasonable to say that it's in the public interest to have corruption in public office reported than, say, adultery. Bottom line, McMahan falls into the grey zone, and on both considerations I've suggested, I think the choice should be not to have an article. ] <sup>]</sup> 08:01, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
	===Other article venues where this has spilled to===
	* ]
	* ]
	Just an FYI. <b>] ]</b> 17:33, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
			P.P.S. As I stated on the WikiProject Figure Skating talk page I linked above, I think it was very unfair to change the rules. Especially since web sources tend to die out after some time.
	OK, I haven't really edited many articles, in fact I finally just created an account because of this incident. Doesn't the fact that there is such a fervent discussion over McMahan's inclusion/exclusion point out that he has enough notoriety to warrant inclusion here? Is it simply because there are no major articles giving a complete biography in several publications that means he shouldn't be included? As soon as you willingly step into the public light, i.e. a public unveiling of a car with the help of a playmate (which absolutely is an attempt for attention for his product), you lose your right to anonymity. Certainly, the article should be balanced, giving all available information. But deleting an article of a notable public figure because they're not famous enough ignores all of the other articles on Misplaced Pages that certainly have garnered much less attention. I'm not implying that anything untoward happened, but given the allegations, simple deletion smacks of impropriety. BTW, if I've made any faux-pas's regarding my post here, let me know, still trying to figure this all out. <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 20:37, 11 October 2010 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
			P.P.P.S. I would also like to note that I am polite, while {{u|Bgsu98}} has already accused me of "bad-faith accusations and outright lies" (). --] (]) 01:06, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
	: That's a touchy subject. One group of Wikipedians are against keeping articles from deletion just because their notability is Misplaced Pages-related, & they often win the discussions. (I don't always think their opinion on the matter is correct, but that's besides the point.) In this case, I would believe you have a point here ''if'' this squabble over an article about this guy makes it to the news beyond ''The Village Voice'' or the ''New York Times'' -- for example, it gets picked up by one of the major media networks in the US or in Europe. Or the incident gets picked apart in the next book on Misplaced Pages. Until then, while I weakly agree with you on this there just isn't enough evidence for notability; or to put it another way, if I'm going to spend time writing an article on a living person, I'd rather work on one of the major government officials of Ethiopia -- we don't have an article on their Minister of Agriculture, for example. In the long run, an article on the Ethiopian Minister of Agriculture will help more people than on this guy. -- ] (]) 23:22, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
			:as the closer of several skating AfDs, I have no issue with a DRV if @] or any other editor believes I closed it in error. However MC, you seem to acknowledge these skaters don't meet the rules and have an issue with the rules. That isn't grounds for a DRV nor a report against @] who is nominating based on community consensus. ] ] 02:03, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
	=== Possible DRV ===
			::I agree with Star Mississippi. But just to give some scope, this cleaning house, mostly of ice skating junior champions, is not recent, it's been going on for at least 6-9 months now, it was originally done through the use of PROD'd articles. But while there have been some objections raised over the past year, Bgsu98's efforts have mostly received support from editors who believe Misplaced Pages is bloated with biographies of marginally notable athletes. Over the past two weeks, through the use of AFD, we have seen dozens and dozens (hundreds?) of annual national skating championship articles either deleted or redirected. But I just want to note that these AFDs wouldn't have closed as "Delete all" or "Redirect all" without the support of other AFD participants. Very few editors are arguing to Keep them all. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 02:45, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
	I know this is going to be wildly unpopular, but our primary concern here should be adherence to our own policies, primarily, ], ], and ]. Deleting one-sided attack articles is certainly beneficial and desirable, but if a subject satisfies the ] section of the notability policy, and the article is built from verifiable facts, does not violate BLP, UNDUE or NPOV, then I think we should have it. We should never prevent creation of an article that satisfies the requirements of these policies just because the subject is controversial. I hope this will be taken to DRV and thoroughly discussed after all these meat/sock issues are resolved. - ] ] 13:49, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
			::"''However MC, you seem to acknowledge these skaters don't meet the rules and have an issue with the rules.''"<br />— They don't meet ], but most (if not all) are famous people and should meet ]. Therefore, caution should be exercised when deleting. I don't think a national silver medalist can be unknown, it is just that reliable sources are hard or even impossible to find now. It appears that some years ago the rules didn't require ], so skater articles were created with simply "He advanced to the free skate at the 2010 World Championships" or "He is a national senior silver medalist", which was enough for an article to not be "picked at". The editors who created skater articles back then probably didn't want to do more than a bare minimum and didn't care to add reliable sources beyond the ISU website profile. One who decides to delete a skater article must keep in mind that reliable sources probably existed at the time the article was created. Cause, as I've said, these skaters arn't unknown. They represented their countries at the highest possible level of competition.<br />(I've recently noticed that Google News don't go as far back as before. Some web sites deleted their older content. Some have even completely disappeared. Like, I mostly edit music articles, and I've noticed that if didn't create some articles 10 years ago, I wouldn't be able to create them now.) --] (]) 17:34, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
	=== Bigger than one article ===
			:::Even if being a junior national medallist was enough in and of itself, ] has always been a thing. You can't just state some fact that would meet a specific notability guideline like ] without providing verification of the claim without the possibility that the article will be nominated at AFD or redirected. '']''<sup>]</sup> 02:35, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
	A cursory search led me to find mention of McMahan in ] and ] (I removed it from the latter), but I have a feeling some POV pushers may have, upon deletion of the BLP article, peppered mentions of McMahan throughout WP. I am far from an expert on BLP policies, but if McMahan is not notable for his own article, then I doubt that using his alleged "controversial relationship" as an example in other articles is appropriate; possible vandalism. Anyway, just wanted to bring this to an Admin's attention ] (]) 17:53, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
			::{{re|Star Mississippi|Liz}} A ], a deletion review? Is it maybe possible to undelete "]" (])? Cause I was searching for sources for ] and found something like a short biography of hers, two paragraphs long.<br />Here: .<br />And again, it was {{u|Bgsu98}} who nominated the article back in May. And he was told, I'm quoting ]: "''There are a whole bunch of similarly deficient nominations. Really, such blanket nominations without evidence of WP:BEFORE and consideration of WP:ATD should be all procedurally kept as WP:SKCRIT#3 given lack of a valid deletion rationale''." --] (]) 23:54, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
	:And just an aside, I was simply casually browsing the ANI thread, and am now fully aware of the controversial information about this non notable individual without actively "looking" for it. I for one hate when I follow a discussion only to find the gossipy stuff courtesy blanked or whatever (just out of sheer curiosity), but I understand why that is the case, and if this information is potentially libelous, well, I'm just saying... ] (]) 18:02, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
			::After looking at ], I think no one will say that I was incorrect about how people vote at AfD. There's even a comment like this: "WP:NSKATE lists some very clear criteria for inclusion, which this article does not meet." And then a more experienced user noted that you should actually search for coverage that may satisfy WP:GNG, but no one actually searched and the article was deleted. --] (]) 00:06, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			:: I have also found an interview with ]: . Yes, it is an interview, but there an editorial paragraph about her (an introductiion). There also a short paragraph here → . Not much, but considering she competed almost 20 years ago... --] (]) 00:34, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Yes @] you're welcome to file a deletion review or request that @] provide you the draft to improve with the sourcing you identified. Neither of us can unilaterally overturn the community discussion. ] ] 14:28, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Yes @] you're welcome to file a deletion review or request that @] provide you the draft to improve with the sourcing you identified. Neither of us can unilaterally overturn the community discussion. ] ] 14:36, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Okay. --] (]) 17:09, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			: This is a content dispute and not an ANI-worthy issue. ] ] 03:41, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			:: I don't think this is a content dispute. I think the user violates ], otherwise it would be impossible to create tons of nominations. And please look at the AfD page, all his nominations simply say: "Non-notable figure skater", "Non-notable figure skater, PROD removed", "Non-notable figure skater; no senior-level medal placements" or "Non-notable figure skater; highest medal placement was silver at the German nationals". It is obvious that there's no ] research and as little consideration as "humanly possible".<br />Okay, since Bgsu98 pinged someone in his support, I'll ping {{u|BeanieFan11}} and {{u|Doczilla}}. (Sorry for disturbing you, BeanieFan11 and Doczilla.) --] (]) 15:46, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::When closing one AfD, I made some observations about that day's many AfDs and noted in that one close regarding Bgsu98: "The nominator's burst of dozens of nominations within half an hour failed to stimulate any discussion about many of them." In my meager opinion, the massive number of rapid deletion nominations rather strongly might suggest, at the very least, a lack of due diligence regarding each and a likely violation of WP:BEFORE. ] <sub>]</sub> 07:02, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			:] claims to be polite, yet wrote : ''"random people at AfD don't care about actually checking the notability and just vote "delete per nom"''. Pinging ] who also found that comment objectionable. I have made an effort to thank editors who have participated in my AFD's, regardless of whether they have always agreed with my findings, because AFD's that end in "no consensus" do nothing but waste everyone's time.
			:He has been adversarial and confrontational in every communication to me. From ]: ''"By the way, I don't understand your agenda here on AfD... Like, you nomitated ] 2 (two) times with exactly the same rationale... Are you planning to nominate it 100 times?"''
			:I always appreciate constructive feedback when it's delivered in a courteous and professional manner. ] seems incapable of courtesy or professionalism. ] ] 04:32, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			:*C'mon, ], civility goes both ways. We can discuss the value of these articles and the AFD process without attacking each other. Flinging mud doesn't give anyone the moral high ground. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 04:43, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			:*:I apologize, ]; I am just at my wit's end with this editor. ] ] 04:45, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::*Here's my take, ]. You have been taking extremely BOLD actions now for most of 2024, proposing the removal of certain articles that are now being judged to be of non-notable article subjects. I think we have even had other discussions about these mass deletions on ANI before when they were still being done in the PROD world. When you take on a project like cleaning house of hundreds of articles that other editors spent time creating and improving, you can expect pushback even if you have policy on your side. Any action that seems "mass" can cause alarm in regular editors who don't believe sufficient care is being taken before tagging these articles for deletion. While I might agree with the overall goal of your project, I think it's important to have empathy for editors who have contributed to these articles over the years that are now being regularly deleted. Most of my work involves the deletion of pages and I still feel some pangs of guilt over removing articles that editors have poured hours into, even if i know they don't meet Misplaced Pages's current standards. It's a job that must be done but I know that it's disappointing to many of our content creators. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 05:45, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::*:As I have been pinged on this discussion I thought I would 1 confirm I did find @] to be somewhat rude and condescending in their repeated assertions that those who vote on these skating AFDs do not do any research and are basically sheep just voting delete and 2 most of these nominated bios are a few sentences or just a table of stats copy and pasted so @] I doubt anyone spent hours putting them together. Finally I feel @] is now looking to use any procedure they can to try and besmirch @] and derail their valid efforts to remove some of the seemingly thousands of sports bios that do not meet current Misplaced Pages guidelines and are of interest to few, if any, general reader. If anyone is in need of reprimand or sanction over this matter (which has been blown out of all proportion), it is @] ] (]) 09:51, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::*::Why should I be "reprimanded"? My comments about "people at AfD' were non-specific, while {{u|Bgsu98}} directly accused me of lying. (In the Russian Misplaced Pages, he would be blocked for this "automatically".)<br />Also, a note to admins: Can it be that {{u|Bgsu98}} finds fun in annoying other editors? I can't really explain the content of his user page differently. Yes, surely, different people can have different motivation for editing Misplaced Pages, but I don't think it is a "normal situation" when you look at someone's user page and see how the person likes to be "evil".<br />And, btw, please note that Bgsu98 summoned Shrug02 here for the purpose of supporting him. I haven't summoned anybody. (Maybe some people would notice, but Bgsu98 deleted my ANI notice from his talk page immediately.) --] (]) 15:35, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::*:::@] I am going to be generous and presume English is not your first language so your choice of wording might be a little off. However, I was not "summoned" or asked to support anyone. @] pinged me and I gave my view. I did not say you SHOULD be reprimanded, I said IF anyone was to be sanctioned over this matter then it would be you. My reasoning for this is your attacking @], making broad statements questioning the intelligence of people at AFD discussions and using this forum incorrectly. As for what happens on Russian Misplaced Pages, that is their busines. I hope you have read @]'s comment as I think it sums this situation up nicely. ] (]) 15:51, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::*:::: I haven't questioned anybody's intelligence. It is just my experience that many people trust the nominator and vote "delete" without much thinking. They maybe quickly visit the article in discussion, look at the "References" section, that's enough for them. And they typically don't speak Russian or Hebrew or whatever. So, when they see "Selepen", they hardly go to yandex.ru and search for "Шелепень". --] (]) 16:09, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::*:::: Okay, "summon" is not the right word. Sorry. "He asked you to come". But that "I am going to be generous" sentence doesn't look polite. --] (]) 16:30, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::*:::: According to , "summon" and "ask to" are the same thing. --] (]) 16:30, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::*:::::@]
			:::*:::::Cambridge Dictionary definition of summon (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/summon) is "to order someone to come to or be present at a particular place, or to officially arrange a meeting of people."
			:::*:::::No-one ORDERED me to take part in this discussion.
			:::*:::::If there is so much significant coverage for these skaters then the simple solution is for you to add it to the articles in question with suitable references and then AFDs will end as keep.
			:::*:::::I am now finished with this discussion and I hope the admins step in and end it soon.
			:::*:::::All the best to everyone involved. ] (]) 16:42, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::*:::] wrote the following in his original complaint: ''”…decided to mass-delete articles that don't comply with WP:NSKATE… I am sure most articles he deleted had the right to stay per WP:GNG.”'' I don’t have the ability to “mass-delete” anything, and if most of those articles met ], the users at AFD would have voted to keep them. Just two examples of MC’s falsehoods. ] ] 16:24, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::*::::OK. But you have also mass-prodded articles, that's the same as "deleting". (Like a "delayed deletion".) --] (]) 16:36, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Let me help you out here, Moscow Connection. As it happens, Bgsu98 is a veteran editor with both tens of thousands of edits and a long history of editing skating articles. He is not, as you imply, some bomb thrower hellbent in laying waste to skating articles. Moving right along ...<p>(2) Your curious assertion that he was the first person to AfD no-longer-qualifying skating articles is inaccurate; I did so myself, right after the NSPORTS changes, and I recall several editors also doing so.</p><p>(3) The Bialas AfDs did not close as Keep, as you wrongly assert. They closed as "no consensus", with almost no participation and multiple relistings; that's ''exactly'' the kind of situation where renomination to seek an actual consensus is appropriate.</p><p>(4) Rules change on Misplaced Pages, by the bucketload. I have a hard time seeing what is "very unfair" about this, unless "very unfair" is a secret code for "I don't like it, so it's unfair." And ... seriously? You've been on Misplaced Pages for fifteen years, have over sixty thousand edits, have participated in nearly a hundred AfDs? I'd expect this level of confusion from a first-week newbie, not from an editor of your experience. ] 06:04, 8 January 2025 (UTC)</p>
			::He only joined in 2021. I've looked at his "Pages Created" count, what he has been doing is creating pages for small figure skating events (for their yearly editions) since late 2023. That's hardly "a long history". --] (]) 15:57, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::“Small figure skating events” like the National Championships of the U.S., Canada, France, Germany, and Italy; the Grand Prix series, including the Grand Prix Final; and the Challenger Series events? 1) Article Creation isn’t the only metric by which Misplaced Pages contributions can be measured, and 2) Referring to any of those events as “small” is ridiculous and insulting to all parties involved. I should have never even responded yesterday when three different administrators asserted that the original complaint was groundless. I’m done responding to this complainant. ] ] 17:07, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Let me help you out here, Ravenswing. I suspect he's saying it's "very unfair" because it seems to him like it's not fair! <b style="font-family:monospace;color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 14:04, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Given it is acknowledged that large numbers of articles on figure skaters do not meet Misplaced Pages's inclusion criteria ({{tq|What happened is that the notability guidelines for some sportspeople were changed a few years ago. And a large chunk of figure skater articles (most of them, honestly) are now outside of WP:NSKATE.}}), I’m not really seeing anything unexpected here. —
			:] (]) 12:26, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			:As someone uninvolved in all of this, I’m reading that OP gets into a dispute about AfDs and then goes to ANI to make their grievances more visible to admins. Does OP not realize that admins are primarily responsible for moderating, closing, and relisting AfD discussions? Also, as someone else pointed above, this is a content dispute: it does not meet the standard for being urgent, chronic, or intractable. OP’s choice to insult another user by calling their behavior “crazy” multiple times is inappropriate and makes me believe that they might have just thrown a ]. ] (]) 14:38, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			:the bar for notability for skaters went up, someone came along and started nominating based on the new guidelines, and OP is upset. that seems to be the gist. i was not involved but didn't that happen in the porno biography area a few years ago? some change raised the bar so a lot of stuff was deleted. ] (]) 16:20, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
	In all fairness, though, this information is not libelous as he has already settled all court cases (at least according to the Village Voice). If in fact it is still available through the CT courts, the information in the article should be verifiable. Also, I understand the need for multiple sources, but ignoring a source because of a purported yet unproven bias is another. The Village Voice and The New York Times are both legitimate sources, whether or not one agrees with what they say is a different matter entirely. <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 05:54, 13 October 2010 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
			* I do heavily advise slowing down on the nominations. There is not enough editors in the figure skating topic area to give the appropriate amount of time to search for sources for these articles. To be honest, I'm sure that a good number of ones that were closed as "delete" were actually notable but no one did any in-depth BEFORE search (many would not have coverage in English and the coverage would be in foreign newspaper archives). I asked the user yesterday about the extent of the BEFORE searches and only got "Yes, but not as much as some people like" – and then I asked what search was done for the most recent example, from a few hours prior, and they said they had no recollection (which is concerning IMO, to have no idea what searches you did for an article you nominated a few hours prior). Note that the AFD rationales are often ''really'' poor; many are simply {{tq|Non-notable figure skater}}, which doesn't say much of anything. ] (]) 16:59, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
	:I think what needs to happen is that a BLP article should be written based solely on the notability of his business ventures, ignoring the controversial content for now. If the article stands up on its own (and doesn't get deleted as non-notable), then a discussion should be started on the talk page about whether or not to include the controversial material. At that point, certain important issues can be discussed, such as ], ], and ] Let consensus work it out before including any controversy, because, in the future, you're going to need to link to those discussion to defend any deletion attempts that will surely pop up if the thing about his daughter ever makes into the article. A slow and non-controversial re-start would be the way to go if someone want to try another stab at this. ] (]) 16:03, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
			*:I will slow down on nominations and focus on improving other aspects of the the FS articles, such as updating the infoboxes and tables to conform with our MOS. ] ] 17:08, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
	::this last suggestion seems a sensible way of resolving this in an orderly manner. ''']''' (]) 02:45, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
			*::And @], you can help by, when the nomination involves a person whose native language is written in non-Latin characters (e.g., Cyrillic or Hebrew), replying in the AfD with a link to the native language web search for that person to help establish the presence or absence of notability support. —&nbsp;]&nbsp;] 17:33, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::I think what is going on here is a perfect and chilling example of the ]. Or maybe not, because in this case, huge resources are thrown at removing material, and the resources appear to be winning. Maybe it should be re-inserted under that aspect. As far as ] goes, . A 20 word mention, followed by three sources was removed as "not sourced that his meets subjec of article." Can we demand a least literacy when articles are being censored? Where is the outrage?
			*:::But there are 45 (!) articles nominated for deletion. I looked at the AfD page and understood that it was physically impossible to do anything. So I decided to bring this situation to the attention of the Misplaced Pages community. It is easy to create 1000 AfD nominations with the same rationale ("Non-notable figure skater"), but even these mere 45 AfD nominations utterly scared me and discouraged me from even looking at ]. (I really can't do anything. I have some other articles, the ones I created, that need attention. And I have long "to do" lists that wait for years to be taken care of.) --] (]) 17:57, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::The answer being, "So?" If neither the article creators nor anyone else has sought to provide ] for these articles -- the Ievleva article, for example, was created '''seventeen years ago''' -- then that just suggests no one's given enough of a damn to bother, and Misplaced Pages will survive these stubs' loss. It is not, nor ever has been, "physically impossible" to do anything about mass deletions; that's ridiculous. An AfD discussion is open for seven days, and it's easy to find adequate sources for an article ... certainly, in the cases of these Russian skaters, for a native speaker of Russian such as yourself. If you can't, the answer isn't that there's some flaw in the process or that Bgsu98 is pulling a fast one on us all. The answer is that the subjects are non-notable, and don't merit Misplaced Pages articles. ] 07:10, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::: The nominator has agreed to slow down, so the point is kind of moot, but I still wanted to make clear: Ravenswing, 45 AFDs rapidly is ridiculous, especially when next-to-no-BEFORE is done and there previously was no indication of stopping – remember that there's only a few editors in the topic area – ''and'' many of these, which are notable, require more than simple Google searches to find the coverage that demonstrates notability (i.e., for many, the coverage would be in places such as difficult-to-find offline newspapers in foreign languages) – making so many nominations rapidly without appropriate searches will inevitably result in some truly notable ones being deleted due to the lack of effort. While ''you'' may not care about the stubs, others do, and simply because the two editors who drive-by to the nom and say "Delete per above" didn't find coverage absolutely does not equate to the subject being confirmed non-notable. ] (]) 16:24, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::Actually, I have attempted to do something yesterday. I voted and commented on two nominations. ("]" and "]".) Cause these two are Russian figure skaters, and I know they are famous enough. Immediately a user came and wholesale dismissed all the sources I found. I don't really want to play that game, it's too tiresome. I have found another source for Alexandra Ievleva just now. Let's see what the outcome will be.<br />But really, I can't do it anymore. Maybe if these were articles I created, I would invest into searching for sources. Now, I just tried a little bit and saw that some people really want to delete these articles for whatever reason. There are a few people actually searching for sources at some nominations, but mostly it's just that old "you go and provide third-party reliable sources independent of the subject, so I can look at them and dismiss them" game.<br />Okay, people will say I am the bad person here, but I have actually tried to save a couple of articles. I don't understand why people so eagerly want to delete articles than can actually be kept. (Okay, there are mostly interviews and short news about the figure skaters placing here and there or missing some events, but those sources are reliable enough. And one can actually take the sources into account and leave the articles be.)<br />By the way, I have tried searching on what was once ], but the news search doesn't work anymore. (.) There's nothing prior to 2024 when Yandex sold its assets including the news engine. And I can remember when the list of news articles there went back to 2003 or so... --] (]) 23:13, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::What I’m reading is that you don’t like how AfD works, and there hasn’t been any departure from normal processes. ANI is not the appropriate venue to discuss these issues. ] (]) 10:56, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::I'm sorry if this looks like a ramble. These were initially two or three separate replies. --] (]) 23:13, 8 January 2025 (UTC)
			===Arbitrary break===
			{{Od}} ...{{Tpq|editors who believe Misplaced Pages is bloated with biographies of marginally notable athletes}}. Just curious if you or anyone else honestly believes that the opinions of these editors takes priority over the view held in the real world that six million articles falls substantially short of "the sum of all human knowledge". contained the following statement: "According to one estimate, the sum of human knowledge would require 104 million articles". I know some of you are in serious denial and will try to suppress this as a result, but I'm gonna keep saying it anyway. We don't have the sum of all human knowledge, nor are we trying to achieve it. At best, we're the sum of what Google and legacy media has spoon-fed you today within the past X number of years.]/]/] (posted 00:37, January 9, 2025 UTC)
			:RadioKAOS, I'm not going to argue about whose "view takes priority" in the area of the sum of human knowledge but in an AFD discussion, decisions are made by determining the consensus of the editors who bothered to show up and present compelling policy-based arguments. That is typically editors who are active on Misplaced Pages and have an opinion about an article, not any scholar coming up with estimates on the necessary number of articles we should have. How many AFDs do you participate in on a regular basis? And there is no one here that who will attempt to "suppress" your argument. As long as you are not personally attacking any editors, I think you are free to have whatever opinions you do have about this project. No penalty. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 03:52, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			::{{re|Liz}} The problem is that these editors who "bother to show up" don't equally represent the community. Maybe I'm wrong, but there are some people who are mainly active on AfD and who act as "gatekeepers".<br />A normal editor can easily not notice when a page is nominated for deletion, but the AfD regulars will come and vote "delete".<br />Also, I wonder how it happened that the NSKATE guidelines were changed so drastically. I think I have found a discussion about that but I am not sure. A user who was tired of people voting "keep per ]", proposed to get rid of the "Misplaced Pages:Notability (sports)" completely. And then there was a discussion with around 70 people attending. But for some reason at least some sports got spared the worst fate (or got out intact), while figure skating was "destroyed". Moreover, the ] revision history shows signs of edit warring. So it is just possible that the "deletionists" were the most active/agressive and they won. Some sports wikiprojects defended their sports, and some like WikiProject Figure skating weren't active at the time and didn't do anything. --] (]) 17:50, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::], I guess you can choose to call them "gatekeepers" but I consider them dedicated volunteers. The number of editors who participate in AFDs has declined for at least the past two years, so if you can think of a way to get more editors involved, or if you want to help out by spending, let's say, 10 hours a week evaluating articles and sources in AFD deletion discussions, your help would be welcomed. But don't criticize the editors who actually show up and help. Without them, we would only have the opinions of editors who nominate articles for deletion and I'm sure you wouldn't like it if all of those nominated articles were simpy deleted without any feedback at all from other editors. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 06:14, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			::I am not an AfD regular, and what happens there scares me. When I commented, people just bombarded me with "This is not a third-party reliable source independent of the subject", and it didn't look to me like they even knew what "third-party" was. (I could swear my source was third-party and reliable and independent, but they said it was not and bombarded me with some random links to the WP space.) --] (]) 17:50, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I had a look at the AfDs you participated in and I think I can explain why there. In all the links you provided were to sports.ru - these are not independent because sports.ru is the website for the Russian sporting body of whom the subject is a member. They thus don't demonstrate the subject has any independent coverage of their athletic career. I hope this helps. ] (]) 14:02, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::You act like some people on AfD who dismiss sources "for the sake of dismissing". Why did even think it was a website for some "Russian sporting body of whom the subject is a member"? It is just a sports news website (a sports portal) like any other. --] (]) 20:56, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::]. Really, that's quite similar to what happens on AfD. I can go deep into Google Search, spend lots of time, but some people will just say "not third-party" or smth like this. Where do they see that and how do they come to their conclusions? It's a mystery to me. --] (]) 21:05, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			:(nods) Heck, "some authority" came up with canards such as that we all ought to take 10,000 steps a day, drink eight glasses of water a day, and that our basal body temps are all 98.6. I likewise decline to bow before the suspect, threadbare wisdom of "one estimate" that we need 104,000,000 articles ... speaking of serious denial. (grins) ] 07:15, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			:: {{re|Ravenswing}}, why are you trying to "repulse" my attemps to save a couple of articles at AfD? First, you came here to defend Bgsu98. And then, you came to the two nominations where I commented, only to wholesale dismiss all the sources I found.<br />And when I found another source, you said that there were "3 sentences" while there were actually 7.<br />I've looked at your contributions, you don't look like someone who can read Russian or has any interest in figure skating. So why are you doing this? (Okay, you can have the articles, you won.) --] (]) 16:49, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Please be careful with the ], Moscow Connection. --] 16:54, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Okay. --] (]) 17:09, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::My 2 cents. In my experience, Bgsu clearly does not conduct BEFORE searches (and seems proud of it), ignores actual coverage of the subjects (even when present in the articles), mass nominates batches of articles (50 in 30 minutes is a hilarious example), consistently fails to adhere to AGF, quickly re-nominates articles when the result is not to their liking, inaccurately summarizes examples of SIGCOV when they are provided in discussions, and tops it off by clearing their XfD logs. ] (]) 21:20, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::: That's a significant number of evidence-free aspersions you're casting, would you like to evidence them? Incidentally, mass-nominating articles isn't necessarily an issue; I have done it in the past but I still examined each article before nominating them in one batch. ] 21:33, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::I do not wish to dig through hundreds of AfDs, no. Just providing what I've gathered in my experience. And I disagree that 50 AfDs in half an hour is not an issue.
			:::::::Here is one example of the types of responses you can expect to get when you provide SIGCOV in one of his discussions: {{tq|Nobody is going to add anything to this article. The same people pop up on these AFD's, squawk about how someone having their picture taken for their local newspaper qualifies as "significant coverage", and then the article is left in the same crappy condition it was when we started.}} ] (]) 21:40, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::And ] is an example of the nom wholly ignoring GNG and insisting on using deprecated NSPORTS guidelines ''after'' SIGCOV was added to the article. Dozens and dozens of more examples. ] (]) 21:46, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::] example of ignoring SIGCOV ''already present'' in the article. ] (]) 21:53, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::{{Ping|GiantSnowman}} {{Ping|Black Kite}} ] and ] and ] and ] and ] and ] and ] and ] and ] and ] more examples, all within a week of eachother and many with SIGCOV already present in the article. ] (]) 21:56, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::::] is an example from two days ago where they nominated a skater who finished top 4 at the World Championships because they assumed the sources in the article were the only sources available on the subject. ] (]) 22:00, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::::OK this AFD, coupled with the historical ones, is very concerning. I understand that not every editor is going to be able to find every source, but it appears that Bgsu98 does not even bother looking. I would support a topic ban from AFDs. ]] 22:03, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::::] and ] is an example of four users expressing their concerns about BEFORE searches and their misunderstanding of notability policies. More recently, concerns were raised ] and , although bgsu deleted the latter from their talk page with the message {{tq|Stay off my talk page. You have some nerve using the term “good will” considering your appalling behavior.}} ] (]) 22:14, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::And here are ] and ] and ] and ] and ] and ] and ] examples of nom ignoring the concept of GNG and/or entirely disregarding SIGCOV already present in the article. As Liz notes ], close to 100 articles were deleted through PROD before I was able to contest them. Many of these that I contested and were later kept in AfDs with clear GNG passes are present among the examples I've given. ] (]) 22:19, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::::Thanks - anything more recent than May 2024? ]] 22:02, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::::Going through their contributions, I see about a week ago there was a period of 30 minutes where they did seven AfDs -- not what I would call a paragon of thoroughness. But fifty in a half-hour is absolutely absurd regardless of when it happened -- I take more time than that to line up a shot when I throw a tissue into the trash can at the other end of the room. <b style="font-family:monospace;color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 14:07, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::It would be helpful if you could provide some examples of a) a number of nominations in a short period of time and b) several AFDs where the rationale is deeply flawed. ]] 21:53, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::: If you go to 10 May 2024 , you get exactly '''50''' nominations in 30 minutes. A good number of those were kept per . ] (]) 22:03, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::::Great, thanks - see above, I think we need an AFD topic ban. ]] 22:04, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Well, let's start with that I'm a frequent participant at ANI, and I no more "came here to defend" anyone than any other editor who's chimed in here. I dismissed those sources wholesale because I burned some time to look over each and every one of them (as did more than one editor), and found that ] provided the "significant coverage" in detail to the subjects that the GNG requires. As it happens, I have edited skating articles in the past -- you're not claiming to have truly gone through my whole twenty-year contribution history, are you?<p>So why am I doing this? Perhaps it's strange to you that anyone could act out of a dispassionate wish to uphold Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines, instead of out of partisan motives, but you'll find that most ANI regulars do just that. ] 21:18, 9 January 2025 (UTC)</p>
			*I've participated in a lot of these AfDs, I believe mostly !voting delete, and I've gotta say I am not happy to see it implied that AfD participants were blindly going along with Bgsu. I guarantee that I perform thorough searches on every single AfD I !vote it, ''especially'' these mass-noms with essentially no rationale. Bgsu's noms are, for better or worse, fairly accurate and generally result in the deletion of articles that should be deleted. ''However'', I have seen several examples of incivility and assuming bad faith from this user (although I have experienced neither myself) and I agree that the sheer quantity of nominations does not promote a healthy level of community input. The individual noms are generally okay, but mass noms like ], tried participating in, and gave up on can be a little overwhelming. I doubt this merits any sanctions, but maybe a ratelimit on AfD noms (20 per day?) is called for. ] </span>]] 22:56, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:I did say a few days ago I wasn't going to engage in this discussion any further but since I keep getting notifications about it I figured I'd weigh in as the conversation seems to have gone in a totally different direction. As @] and others have pointed out I too am not happy that it is being implied that people who voted in these AFDs are blindly following @] without doing any independent research. I refuted this on the figure skating talk page when this all started and on this page. Also, as has been previously pointed out by other editors, this particular discussion began with @] basically not liking the rules on significant coverage and then coming to this forum to seek retribution against @]. Now it seems that their improper use of this forum, ref bombing of articles and general complaining that they don't like something and how unfair it is in their opinion, may actually lead to them getting what they want. This sets a very poor precedent that if you don't like something on Misplaced Pages and you jump up and down and wail about it enough you can get your way. Yes @] probably nominates too many similar articles at one time but they have agreed to slow down now, and yes they have nominated articles for AFD that have then been kept because significant coverage was found, but they have also nominated a lot of articles which have not been found to have significant coverage and have subsequently been deleted following the due, consensus based procedure and closed as such by an admin. @] is already seeking to have articles which have been deleted following AFDs unilaterally reopened. If you now sanction @] we may as well just give Jimmy Wales a call and ask him to hand over Misplaced Pages to the whims and wants of @] ] (]) 23:25, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:*I haven't asked anybody to give Misplaced Pages over to me. What do you mean by "unilaterally reopened"? If you are refering to me asking {{u|Star Mississippi}} to undelete the "]" article, what's wrong with it? It was deleted without a proper Google search, and I have found some sources for her. Just look at ]. At the very end, a user that goes by the name of {{u|Kvng}}, noticed: {{tq|No one in this discussion (including myself) has mentioned anything about searching for coverage that may satisfy WP:GNG}}, but that was all, no one did anything. You and another user seem to have claimed here that you do a proper search on every Bgsu98's nomination, but I don't see you on that AfD page.<br />You really sound like you think I'm doing something awful in my attempt to rescue an article. Come on, she's not someone terrible who wants to promote herself on Misplaced Pages or something. She's just a fairly famous figure skater. You don't need to defend Misplaced Pages from her. --] (]) 00:04, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:*I've decided to save "]" (]) and I've already found a couple of dozen articles talking about her. Yes, maybe the others will say those are mostly interviews and the Women's Sport website is not good enough, but I have found lots and lots about her! I don't think you or Bgsu98 would be able to do that cause you don't read Russian and don't know how to search (I tried to add different additional key words, and every time I found something new). --] (]) 00:04, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:*:1 you don't know if I read Russian, Chinese, Martian or what, 2 now you say I "don't know how to search" which is yet another unfounded suggestion that I don't make any effort before giving opinions on AFDs, 3 you don't know what searches were done on Lilia Biktagirova and neither do I, 4 I wasn't involved in that discussion and I try to focus more on adding to articles then deleting them, 5 my point was, and is, you don't like the rules so you have launched a campaign of complaining to try to get your way instead of going through the proper channels and seeking to get consensus to alter said rules. Frankly I'm tired of this and of you belittling everyone else as if you are the only person who knows what is right and are somehow able to read the minds and intentions of everyone else. Go ahead and, as you put it, "save" your Russian skaters. I genuinely hope you do and that the articles are filled with interesting and well-sourced information. That's the aim of Misplaced Pages to inform the population about things worth knowing. ] (]) 00:25, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:*:*"{{tq|You don't know if I read Russian, Chinese, Martian or what}}"<br />— What I do is called ]. What you just did by claiming you can read Martian, I honestly don't know.<br />I've started this discussion because I saw the user's 45 nominations at ] and that scared me a lot. --] (]) 01:00, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:*:*:It's called ironic humour and, with everything going on in the world right now, if a Misplaced Pages AFD scared you a lot then you are obviously in the very fortunate position to have so few worries. Anyway I'm moving on to spend my time more productively. I sincerely wish you the best in your endeavours. ] (]) 01:05, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			**I appreciate your input and insight. As I told ] earlier, I promised to slow down on nominations, and in fact, I had decided that I wouldn't even entertain the idea of additional nominations until the ones already in the system work their way through.<br>I can also promise to strive to be more thorough in researching these potential nominations and provide more detailed rationales in the future. I am also fine with any limitations that the community requests in terms of numbers of nominations. Twenty per day seems awfully high; I was thinking more like two! ] ] 23:28, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			**:Sorry, Bgsu, I completely missed that you had committed to slowing down. I think that's a great idea that resolves the issue here. Just remember, when you get frustrated by other editors, do your best to stay polite – if you can't, simply step away from the keyboard for a moment. I don't want to see you get in trouble for one too many snarky comments. ] </span>]] 09:51, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			**20 nominations per day is 7300 per year. The limit should be more like 0. (And if it is decided to be 1 or something like that, Bgsu98 will have to demonstrate that he has searched for sources every time. I prefer 0, naturally.) --] (]) 00:16, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			**:A limit of 0 is asinine, and I highly suggest you strike this comment. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 18:24, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			**::Yeah, agreed - really not helping move away from the comments above the MC is here because they don't like AFD. ]] 18:57, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:While I do not know whether @] should be restricted from AfD as I haven't been able to go into the weeds on this, I disagree with {{tq|I doubt this merits any sanctions, but maybe a ratelimit on AfD noms (20 per day?) is called for.}} @]. No editor should be nominating 20 articles per day. That's unsustainable for AfD participants, clerks or closers. We do not have the editor volume to assess that many nominations from one nominator. ] ] 00:24, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::20 per day is a lot, but given the numbers thrown around above (50 in 30 minutes) I figured it would be a massive improvement. But since Bgsu has committed to nominating ''far'' fewer articles with {{tq|Twenty per day seems awfully high; I was thinking more like two!}} I suppose the whole discussion is moot. ] </span>]] 11:04, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::I don't think it's that easy. The question is who will check all the hundreds or thousands of his previous nominations. Definitely not me. (I've looked through several active ones, found some sources, commented here and there, and got very tired.)<br />As I have commented below, when problems were found with {{u|Sander.v.Ginkel}}'s articles, he was told to go through all his articles and check them. (Actually, there was a user who volunteered to help, but that user was revealed to be Sander.v.Ginkel himself, cause no one in their right mind would have volunteered to check 40000 articles. I, personally, don't want to be a slave and don't want to check Bgsu98's past nominations, especially knowing how little effort he put into creating them and that I would have to spend years looking for sources.) --] (]) 11:29, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::It's a volunteer project. Someone may choose to, as you did initially, or no one will. But unless they're salted, there's nothing prohibiting restoration to drafts if ] can be found. We can fix going forward but can't always fix what happened before even when there's a collaborative effort. ] ] 13:40, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			*Of note. User JTtheOG is canvassing apparent like-minded editors to this discussion, and . ] (]) 23:25, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:They are not like-minded actually. In fact, both had previously expressed they disagreed with my initial assertions, which I had not yet provided evidence for. I was notifying them of examples being provided here of previously unsubstantiated aspersions. ] (]) 23:44, 9 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::"As per previous discussions..." I love hearing that ] is having discussions about me with other users, but has never once attempted to communicate directly to me. (Snide comments in AFD's don't count as broaching conversation.) ] ] 00:11, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			** If even that's true, no none came. (No one of the whole two.) And Bgsu98 did the same by pinging his like-minded AfD colleague. (He pinged him immediately.) --] (]) 00:21, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			* As a fellow ] participant, and without having gone over the particular cases, I am normally a rather deletion-oriented editor but am an inclusionist for skating specifically as sources are not as online on this topic as usual, and often in foreign languages, so I am not usually in favor of deleting a skater's article unless we really do exhaust all possible sources of notability. I do request that {{ping|Bgsu98}} convene a broader discussion over notability as I also do disagree with the current guidelines, but even without that a discussion is warranted. Even if a mass deletion ''is'' warranted, it should be handled in one mass AfD, not a gazillion separate ones.--] ] 01:11, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:Mass AfDs routinely get shot down reflexively, on the (somewhat threadbare) grounds that they should all be reviewed on their individual merits, and not lumped in a group. Something of a Catch-22 there. In any event, the answer for an inadequately sourced article is not to jump through extraordinary hoops to find what isn't there. The answer is that the article cannot be sustained -- but can be recreated without prejudice should such sourcing surface down the road -- even when it's an article on a figure skater. ] 00:03, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::Right, good point. But it still makes sense for cases where the rationale is mostly the same. Maybe not 100 articles in one but 5-10. This should help keep it at a more manageable level. ] ] 05:32, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::I agree with you, but in recent years, a significant number of editors haven't: sufficient to sabotage most attempts to do so. ] 13:33, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
			*I came across this randomly in my watchlist.. can I recommend ''everyone'' take a step back and focus on the issue at hand? Currently, ] states the following: {{tq|Search for additional sources, if the main concern is notability: The minimum search expected is a normal Google search, a Google Books search, a Google News search, and a Google News archive search; Google Scholar is suggested for academic subjects.}} So, I'd ask {{ping|Moscow Connection}} to please consider whether their views on BEFORE are in line with what it actually says. I appreciate that MC states many of these nominated articles are for non-English speaking and in some cases non-Western world skaters, and so it may not be possible to find many of the potential sources in an English language Google search.{{pb}}But MC, can you identify any deletion nominations for which there were sources that could be found in any of the following: ''a normal Google search'', or a ''Google Books search'', or a ''Google News search'', or a ''Google News archive search''? If you can identify such, please provide the deletion discussion, and a link or other method of showing us how you came across the sources on one of those searches. If you can't, then it sounds like your argument is more for '''expanding ] to require non-English language searches for non-English subjects'''. I take no strong view on whether it would be a good idea - I think that BEFORE should certainly ''recommend'' more far reaching searches for subjects who may not be satisfied by a Google search.. but ''required''? Not everyone knows how to use other search engines, and they may not even know what terms to use (or be able to type them easily). And that doesn't even begin to touch the big problem with Google - Google results (if you're logged in, at least), are '''significantly''' based on your search history, and if you use Google Chrome browser (on mobile or PC), or the Android OS, they are also based on your usage of those platforms (such as websites visited, apps used, etc). So it's entirely possible that MC searching Google may see a result on the first page or two that someone else searching Google would not have seen on the first couple pages at all.{{pb}}Regardless, that's an argument/discussion to be had on another page (likely ]). Since this all seems to be a misconstruing of BEFORE by MC, and assuming everyone involved tones down the rhetoric, I'd recommend this move towards a reminder to MC that BEFORE, as it stands now, does '''not''' require anything beyond a Google (and Google News and Google Books) to be searched, and until that changes, the mere fact sources exist on other search engines does not constitute a violation of BEFORE unless there is evidence they would've been found through those search means. And I recommend that MC (or anyone, really) starts a discussion ''at the appropriate place'' if they think changes to BEFORE are necessary. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez &#124; ] &#124; ] 01:20, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			** I read this and tried to search some names from AfD on Google Books. A search for ]'s name definitely returns something non-trivial: ("Nicole Nönnig kehrte allerdings nach kurzer Pause zurück . Mit Matthias Bleyer bildete sie ein Paar , das 2003 sogar internationale Wettbewerbe bestritt . Die Schlittschuhe haben Nicole und Matthias inzwischen jedoch an den Nagel ..."). --] (]) 01:36, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			**:I'll leave this to others to discuss, but this is the type of "evidence" you would be expected to produce to show that the user did not comply with BEFORE. That said, one instance of mention in a book does not meet ], so unless you can show that there are ''multiple'' instances of ''significant'' coverage in reliable sources that would've been found on a BEFORE, then it still doesn't mean that the user did not do a valid BEFORE. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez &#124; ] &#124; ] 01:41, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			**:: Here's a link to the book: . (I've tried and tried, but I don't know how to add "bks" to the Google Books search URL.) --] (]) 01:45, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			**:: A search for "李宣潼" on Google News returned this article: and a couple more. The one I linked looks very solid, it is a full-fledged biography. (The AfD discussion is here: ]. As usual, the rationale is: {{tq|Non-notable figure skater; no senior-level medal placements.}}) --] (]) 02:13, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			**:: And one more article → about Li Xuantong and her partner ] (also nominated for deletion by Bgsu98). It's like a print magazine article + interview, looks "massive". --] (]) 02:25, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			**:: Another example: ].<br />A simple Google News search for "김유재 2009" returns a lot. I didn't look too far, but I found two lengthy articles about her and her twin sister on the first page (, ) and voted "keep".<br />(I would also note that there are already some AfD regulars present in that discussion. But no one has googled her name.) --] (]) 03:59, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			**:: OMG, Bgsu98 nominated her sister for deletion, too: ]. He nominated her on January 1, and no one has commented since. (Okay, I'll vote now and save her.) --] (]) 04:03, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			**:::You ''do'' realize there’s a difference between an article about a person and the person themselves? You’re not saving anyone here. You are a volunteer Misplaced Pages editor, not a volunteer firefighter. ] (]) 06:21, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			**::::{{re|HyperAccelerated}} Did it sound strange or silly? Sure, I understand the difference. But people do say "article's notability" when it's actually "the notability of an article's subject". I thought that an article and its subject are interchangeable in colloquial wikispeech. --] (]) 06:29, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			**::Personally, I would feel I had done a slipshod job if I made a nomination for an article with some passing-mention search results, and I did not address these in the nomination statement, or at the very least indicate that I had made the search. <b style="font-family:monospace;color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 14:10, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*I know the entire thing is a bit of a long read, but I would like to note that Bgsu98's tendency to make XFDs without any regard for GNG/BASIC - even for those where GNG/BASIC is met (], ], ]) - dates back to ]. In fact, last year ] (which they then deleted) that this issue was creating more work for editors, but this is still continuing as of late. There seems to be an IDHT issue with ]. ]@] 02:19, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			*Alright, trying to defuse the situation more. {{ping|Bgsu98}} It appears that MC has been able to provide at least two examples for which there are ''multiple'' examples of potentially significant coverage in reliable sources independent of the subject. And another user has identified at least 3 other AfDs in which sources were quickly found by other users. Yes, some of them (such as MC's examples) were found by Google searching the non-Latin alphabet version of the subject's name, but nothing in BEFORE suggests that searching only the subject's Latin name is appropriate. And it appears that these sources are all found with a quick Google search of the subject's name in the non-Latin script. Can you explain why you did not find these sources, or why, if you did find these sources, you did not identify them at the AfD discussion and/or did not consider them sufficient for GNG? -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez &#124; ] &#124; ] 04:51, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			::What do you think of the limitations on nominating articles that ] already stated they were willing to adopt? It's higher up in this discussion. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 05:17, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I spent a good 30-45 minutes reading this discussion before I made my first comment attempting to defuse this. I do not think that a voluntary restriction is going to be a good thing here, unless it is given the enforceability that a consensus here can give. I initially was concerned that EC was making this report with a poor understanding of BEFORE. But given that EC (and another editor) has/have now provided multiple examples of Google searches that show, at least at first glance, one or more sources that meet GNG for their related articles, I think there is ample evidence that Bgsu98 is violating BEFORE. I don't particularly care ''why'' they're violating BEFORE, but I would support waiting for their explanation regardless.{{pb}}If Bgsu98 is unable to provide any legitimate explanation for the at least 3 cases that have been identified now as having clear sources in the searches required by BEFORE, I would support a restriction on nominating articles for deletion in any way (PROD or AfD, or otherwise) since they cannot be trusted to follow BEFORE before they do so.{{pb}}All of that said, I think this should be moved to a subsection - starting with EC and Miraclepine's reports of specific cases. I stepped in as what you may call an inclusionist, thinking I'd be in support of sanctions immediately, but this is a complicated situation, and to be blunt, everything above my comment seems to have led nowhere. At the same time, I support giving Bgsu98 a chance to respond explaining why their BEFORE search was sufficient, before any sanctions are issued. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez &#124; ] &#124; ] 05:24, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::I've provided some 20 examples as well. ] (]) 05:36, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I would say: "Not before Bgsu98 goes through all his previous nominations and his PRODs and searches for sources for them." He probably deleted (okay, "nominated") hundreds of pages, he did enough damage and now should work on fixing it. --] (]) 05:43, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::That's not too helpful right now, man. No one can be forced to do anything. ] (]) 07:38, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::I don't propose to force anyone. But I have just came across a ] and remembered how he was told to go through all the articles he had created and check/fix them before creating more. We have a similar situation here, I think. --] (]) 07:45, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::Articles that should not have been deleted have been kept by consensus at AfD. This is how AfD works. They are in the exact same state that they were before they were nominated, perhaps even better by ]. No “damage” has occurred. Additionally, if you think an article has been deleted when it shouldn’t, it is ''your'' responsibility to bring your concerns to DRV. This does not change just because you made a thread at ANI. You do not get to pick and choose which policies apply to whom. ] (]) 18:12, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::Bgsu has already agreed to limit their nominations to a couple a day. This is a far stricter constraint than what could have probably been reached by consensus. What more do you want? For reasons I don’t understand, your response to this is “the limit should be more like 0” without any grounding in policy. As I see it, Bgsu is plainly negotiating in good faith, while your behavior is bordering on bullying. ] (]) 18:24, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::@] has hit the nail on the head. This discussion should have been tossed immediately or at least closed down well before now. The early responses were that this was a content dispute not appropriate for ANI then the OP kept going with rapid fire posts and a few editors who appear to have a pre-existing axe to grind with @] revved it up into what it has become. As a side note it will be very interesting to see how the outstanding AFDs are adjudicated and by whom. ] (]) 18:51, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{OD}}
			*'''Oppose any sanctions''' to Bgsu98. I did a spot-check of some of the more contentious AfDs and, honestly, the keep !votes did not provide a compelling argument to keep in any of those cases. As I mentioned to {{U|Moscow Connection}} above, for example, they provided six links to one of the subjects - and every single link was in the sports.ru domain which is not independent and does not establish notability for a Russian athlete. It's very unfortunate that so many editors here have expressed either distain for or fear of the AfD process, which is integral to the quality of this project and which I would heartily encourage more editors to participate in. And I can assure those people with misconceptions that many AfDs conclude with an article being kept or with no consensus - which is a de-facto keep. The sum of all human knowledge is a lofty goal. But one philosophical point I would ask extreme inclusionists to consider is that there is a difference between knowledge and data. AfD is a process whereby we distinguish between knowledge and data according to criteria - imperfect criteria surely but criteria - which we agreed to as participants in this project. We shouldn't be punishing a person for efficiently doing a hard job just because it's one that has a side-effect of upsetting people. ] (]) 19:19, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:In case it was not already clear I too '''Oppose''' sanctions against @]. They should be given the chance to prove they will stick to their pledge to slow down on AFD nominations. Also sanctioning them will set a precedent for others who are unhappy with AFD proceeses and outcomes to seek similar sanctions against other nominators and could well have the effect of putting many people off participating in the process for fear of retribution when in fact it would be better if more people took part. ] (]) 20:12, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::Whereas I '''support''' some kind of restriction on the number of AFDs they can start per day. ]] 20:16, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::I offered up self-imposed restrictions above, including the caveat that there would be no further skating nominations until the ones currently in the system work their way through. According to ], my last nomination was January 7th. As more contentious AFD's can sometimes take up to a month to process, that should allow for sufficient time. ] ] 20:33, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::To be fair, your log is regularly cleared, including your ]. ] (]) 20:58, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::::Once an AFD is settled, I remove it. What's the problem? The log shows active AFD's only. ] ] 21:04, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			* How about ] just agrees to not nominate more than, I don't know, two articles per day (based on their comment {{tq|I am also fine with any limitations that the community requests in terms of numbers of nominations. Twenty per day seems awfully high; I was thinking more like two!}}) and we end the discussion? ] (]) 21:02, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:@] I second this proposal. ] (]) 21:20, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::We should definitely end it. I'm not an admin but that seems more than fair. ] (]) 21:46, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::Two a day is fine by me. ]] 22:15, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			** I think there should be a requirement for him to show some sources he has found. (In every nomination. If there aren't any, then a link to a Google search query can suffice.)<br />Cause I've seen him lately on some figure skater articles in my watchlist, and I don't see him adding any references ever. It looks like his edits are purely technical. (As well as his nominations.) He doesn't really add to the encyclopedic content, just updates scores and changes the table formatting. (And nominates for deletion.)<br />Does he ever search the net? That's the question. Has it happened even once that he wanted to delete an article and then found a source for it, added the source and went away? --] (]) 21:29, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			**:Wow. Mister "I would also like to note that I am polite" is again denigrating others' work, as if adding scores and formatting tables to meet Misplaced Pages's MOS is unimportant. "He doesn't really add to the encyclopedic content." Yep, very polite. ] ] 22:25, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			**::At this point, I'm seriously starting to think Moscow Connection needs topic banned from AfD in general, if not the entire subject matter of these articles. MC has demonstrated an inability to edit collaboratively without resorting to personal attacks and demands. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 17:40, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
			**:::I am regrettably willing to support either of those sanctions against MC at this point. They’ve been warned multiple times about the possibility of a ], and those warnings were not heeded. While I really want to assume good faith here, their behavior resembles ], following Bgsu from nomination to nomination and casting a copious amount of aspersions on this ANI thread. Even if some of the Keep votes provide legitimate sources, the act of following a user across many discussions and refbombing them (in at least one case, as described in the discussion below) is not acceptable. ] (]) 00:50, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
			*: And, as I've said, one should also search in the skater's native language. And for Russian figure skaters, Google doesn't work, you need Yandex. (And Yandex is not good as a search engine, some effort is needed to find anything. The major sports websites have profiles for everyone, you need to find the needed profile and go from there. It sounds too complicated, but that's how it is.) --] (]) 21:30, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			** Also, he doesn't appear to know how to use the ]. The ] article had a good reference, I found it in the archive. His nomination (]) doesn't mention the reference, like if it doesn't exist. Maybe he didn't even look at the references section. --] (]) 22:10, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			** What I mean is that he should be required to show some sources he has found and to explain why these sources do not suffice. (After all, if he nominates an article, then obviously he doesn't find the coverage sufficient.)<br />There's always something. (Almost always.) But since he nominates mostly skaters who have finished their careers, the number of potential sources (news articles) found on the internet shouldn't be big. There are usually just a few. --] (]) 22:10, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
			**:MC, you are rapidly digging a hole you will not be able to get out of. This incessant demands and aggressive comments are wearing thin, and if you do not stop you are likely to face ] sanctions yourself. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 17:42, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
			**::{{reply|HandThatFeeds}} Okay, okay, sorry! By the way, I didn't even have this page on my watchlist and was just waiting for the outcome. (I came here yesterday, and there were no new replies. So I thought that was all, everyone was just waiting for an admin closure. I, personally, had said everything I wanted, I didn't even have anything to add.)<br />P.S. I just came here now because Bgsu98 have edited some of my Russian figure skater articles just now. (I'm not attacking him, he hasn't ever nominated even one article of mine for AfD. Maybe because I'm trying to add a source or two to them.) --] (]) 04:25, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:I think this would be reasonable. <b style="font-family:monospace;color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 14:11, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*I can see how Bgsu's nomination volume can be a problem, and support his voluntary limitations and promise to provide more thorough deletion rationales. At the same time, given the kinds of sources MC has produced as "evidence" of GNG at, e.g., ], I think his perception of our notability requirements is wildly out of line with the community's. As @] pointed out in that AfD, MC basically ''repeatedly'' refdumped a bunch of interviews and couple-sentence mentions despite being informed of their ineligibility in contributing toward GNG, so if those are the kinds of sources they are bringing up now to demonstrate "nonexistent BEFORE searches" I am quite skeptical that the problem is as actionable as they claim. That, coupled with their broad disapproval (unawareness?) of our current NSPORT guidelines, makes me concerned about the notability of their own creations—are they also basing those articles on interviews and routine transactional blurbs? ] (]) 18:53, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:I've started to wonder the same thing: that if MC is either utterly unaware of relevant notability standards or (as I suspect is the case) utterly defiant of them, are they another Lugnuts or Dolovis, and their article creations full of NN subjects? Ultimately, I don't give a damn whether MC (or anyone else) likes or approves of Misplaced Pages's standards, but they have to comply with them all the same.<p>In any event, I '''oppose any sanction or limitation on Bgsu'''. I am not sure when people got the idea that filing bulk AfDs was against policy, but they are very greatly mistaken if they do think that. ANI is not the proper venue for a community discussion on changing that policy, and I recommend the Village Pump. ] 23:42, 11 January 2025 (UTC)</p>
			*::I came across this article today: ]. was the state of the article MC left before another user (and regular contributor to FS articles) added some of the tables. There is also this one: ]. ] ] 01:05, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::Hello. I've just noticed you edits to my articles and added some reliable sources.<br />Sorry that I left the articles like that, but I'm not too interested in figure skating lately, I just saw the 2025 Russian Championships results and wanted to create some stubs for some new "figure skating stars". (Back in the days, other users, ones who know how to format all the tables, would come and do everything. Just a blink of an eye, and there's a lengthy article — competitive highlights, music, everything. But now I can't see anyone. Maybe they are upset by the changes to NSKATE and stopped working on Wiki.) --] (]) 04:11, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::I have added simply terrific sources everywhere. (Everyone has a full-fledged biography on a big media site.) --] (]) 06:39, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::I simply searched on Google.com. and came out on the first page. You posted here instead of simply googling.<br />P.S. I know that this article is not my proudest moment. But I don't really edit figure skating articles lately and I have never been active much in this topic. Not on the English Misplaced Pages, anyway. --] (]) 10:33, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::There is no such thing as 'your' articles, see ]. ]] 10:46, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::::Also that source is very dubious. Look at their about page. Notice that they have a Guinness World Records Certificate image there? It's not got the official Guinness world records logo and there are errors in how the numbers are notated on it. Which suggests this newspaper has a fake Guinness world record cert on their about page. So, yeah, not very reliable. ] (]) 19:12, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:Hello! First of all, I must explain that I only came to that nomination because {{u|Berchanhimez}} asked me to find some examples of Bgsu98 not doing any WP:BEFORE research. So I went to ] and looked at the current nominations. I am very sorry if I "dumped" a lot of "bad" sources on that AfD page, but I simply wanted to show everything that I had found. And I believe that it is advisable that Bgsu98 does something like this in his future nominations. Like: "Look what I have found on Google. This, this. this. I believe it's not enough and the skater is not notable. Now let's discuss."<br />P.S. At first, I wanted to find some of his old nominations of some really big names, but I didn't know how to find them. So that's what I did, I came to the current ones. (I looked at some figure skating championships articles, but there were no red links. It seems that, after an article gets deleted, he or someone else deletes all the links to it.)<br />P.P.S. I should probably be advised to retire from this discussion. Cause I'm being attacked already. And it looks like some people are already advising me to go away. So I'm going away. I'm still hoping something good will come of this. --] (]) 10:33, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::I think this is good of you. You’ve provided your examples, and it’s now up to others to decide whether they are examples of violations of BEFORE or not. Thank you for refocusing your comments on specific examples rather than the back and forth that was going on.
			*::I tend to agree that BEFORE should not be a private thing. If someone does a BEFORE and finds nothing, stating such is good. But if they find borderline or a bunch of insignificant coverage, then providing at least examples of that in the nomination with a short explanation as to why they do not consider them valid goes to show they actually did a BEFORE.
			*::I don’t think a voluntary restriction on number of AfDs is enough to assuage the fact that the nomination statements are short and don’t address the sources that should be found during a BEFORE. But hopefully a limit of two per day will result in better nomination statements that address more borderline sources.
			*::At this point it doesn’t seem there’s any appetite for sanctions, and I think MC has been explained why many of the sources they have found don’t qualify for GNG. So maybe a closure with no action overall, and hopefully going forward less nominations at a time will result in more discussion in those nominations so that issues over why the sources found aren’t adequate can occur on each individual nomination. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez &#124; ] &#124; ] 17:58, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
			*Is this another one of those things where between the people who spend dozens of hours a week on enforcing policies and making up new policies and arguing about how to modify policies look down our noses at the people who "merely" write/edit articles when they are confused that the rules they laboriously followed for years have been randomly changed without even their knowledge, let alone their consensus? <b style="font-family:monospace;color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 14:01, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:No, it's more like a dispute between someone sending a bunch of articles to AfD because they lacked proper sourcing, and a fan of those articles throwing everything they can at the wall to try and "save" those articles, while smearing the person who sent them to AfD. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 17:28, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:Never mind what I said uptopic, JPxG: policies and guidelines change, from time to time. Always have, always will, and neither yours, mine nor anyone else's personal approval are a precondition of ratifying them. It is incumbent upon editors to stay abreast of such changes if they're engaged in ongoing article creation, but at any rate, they're not exempted from them. Leaving aside that the GNG and SIGCOV have been around for many years now, the changes in NSPORTS are a few years old themselves.<p>In any event, you surely can't be advocating that the most productive way to handle being in this situation is to kick, scream, and rail against the injustice of it all, as opposed to "Gosh, sorry, I didn't know. I'll go read those guidelines now, and conform hereafter." ] 22:53, 13 January 2025 (UTC)</p>
			**{{reply to|JPxG}} That's a good observation! :-)<br />But what I wanted to do here on ANI is to stop just one particularly active editor who mass-nominates articles for deletion without doing a ] search. His actions are bot-like, and his AfD nominations usually receive one or two bot-like "delete" votes. We may as well just delete all the articles that are now outside of ]. It will be more fair than <u>imitating</u> an AfD process.<br />P.S. I do appreciate the people who work on AfD and put their time in reviewing the nominations. I see that some of Bgsu98's nominations do end in a "keep" thanks to those hard-working people. But there are many more that would have been kept if a proper web search was done.<br />P.S. I really can't participate in this ANI thread anymore, cause I have tried to comment on some AfD nominations and what I've got are just accusations of disrupting/sabotaging the process. --] (]) 01:45, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			**:Okay, that's enough. This is just more aspersions thrown at Bgsu98, even after all the attempts above to get Moscow to disengage. I think Moscow needs a topic ban from AfD, and a one-way IBAN with Bgsu9. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 18:48, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			**:: The only thing I see about Bgsu98 in that comment is {{tq|But what I wanted to do here on ANI is to stop just one particularly active editor who mass-nominates articles for deletion without doing a WP:BEFORE search. His actions are bot-like}}. That's certainly a valid view of the nominations. ] (]) 18:55, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			**:::'''Support TBAN and IBAN:''' My hand's kind of forced here. As I stated above, I really, ''really'' didn't want to do this. However, calling other people's behavior "bot-like" without evidence is a pretty serious aspersion, and MC has been warned many times to drop the stick at this point. This is the final straw for me. These read like veiled accusations, and while MC might come here and claim that I'm misunderstanding them, I just can't give the benefit of the doubt after witnessing this consistent pattern of misbehavior. ] (]) 04:49, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			**:::*First, you invite me to AfD (that I do not normally visit), then, when I do drop by, you don't like my comments and want to make me banned from there. That's unpolite, to say the least. And what IBAN, fgs? I swear I didn't even know who this Bgsu98 user was until a few days ago.<br />{{tq|My hand's kind of forced here.}} — That's just strange. You are not an admin. Do you have some anger issues? I think it is you and {{u|HyperAccelerated}} who need a ban from ANI and an IBAN from interacting with <u>me</u> because I have never seen you in my life and you are attacking me all of a sudden.<br />P.S. I hope this will be my last comment here. --] (]) 05:40, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			**:::::{{tqq|Do you have some anger issues?}} And now you're ], which is ''absolutely not a good look'' on top of everything else here. - ] <sub>]</sub> 05:55, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			**::::::{{reply to|The Bushranger}} I am very, very sorry. I didn't know that could be seen as "aspersions" that weren't allowed. They have also casted "aspersions" saying that I was trying to harrass Bgsu98 and sabotage the AfD process. When in fact, I just posted to ANI and never talked to Bgsu98 elsewhere. So I just wanted to reply to them in a similar manner. That was stupid of me.<br />As for my "disruption" at AfD, I simply searched for sources and showed everything I have found. (That's how I usually search for sources, sorry. This time I didn't even try to go through all the 100 pages of Google results.)<br />{{u|JPxG}} said that this was "one of those things" between people who enforce policies and the people who write articles. But it looks like some people who are attacking me are ] who make minor edits. And when they saw one billion sources I had dumped at one AfD, they didn't understand.<br />P.S. I hope I didn't say anything wrong again. I sincerely promise that I will never return to this discussion. Sorry for the inconvenience I have caused. --] (]) 07:22, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			**:::::::I also don't think ignorance is an acceptable excuse for these kinds of comments at this point. As Ravenswing pointed out above (), you've been here for fifteen years. You should be more than familiar with the guidelines for civility by now. I also issued a warning that your behavior was becoming sanction-worthy , and Hand also issued a warning . AfD requires users to resolve disagreements over whether to keep or discuss articles in a civil manner. Given MC's aspersion that I have "anger issues" and the refbombing at ] of Bgsu's, I have serious doubts as to whether they can be an effective participant in AfDs. ] (]) 13:52, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			**:::* {{tq|I really, ''really'' didn't want to do this. However, calling other people's behavior "bot-like" without evidence is a pretty serious aspersion}} – {{u|HyperAccelerated}}: would you say that mass nominating ''fifty'' different articles for deletion in half as many minutes with the exact same one-sentence rationale is ''not'' bot-like? ] (]) 16:25, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			**:::*:Not entirely. I think it can be done by hand in that span of time, albeit it's a bit tedious. The use of "bot-like" in this context is questionable at best and objectionable at worst. But, regardless of whether you agree with my interpretation of this remark, I'm more concerned about a broader pattern of misbehavior coming from MC. We should not mistake the forest for the trees. ] (]) 17:43, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			**:::*{{reply to|Liz}} Can this be stopped, please? I've said everything I wanted to say and went away from this discussion, but {{u|HandThatFeeds}} and {{u|HyperAccelerated}} are still attacking me and are writing something strange in bold font. It looks like they have highjacked this discussion and are leading it to some very unusual outcome.<br />P.S. I've actually found out how I "first met" Bgsu98 and I've posted my findings here on ANI, but then I deleted that post: . (I'm sorry, but Bgsu98's name looked to me like something from a random character generator. And I don't remember every sequence of characters I see on the internet. :-)) --] (]) 05:40, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			***:::::On ANI, when things aren't going your way, you don't get to say "please stop the discussion". Everyone's conduct is open to discussion here - ], and {{tqq|are writing something strange in bold font}}, when the only "bold font" used by (one of) them is the (very obvous) !vote to topic-ban you, is concerning. - ] <sub>]</sub> 05:55, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{Archive top
	:::In ], the following sentence stands unopposed: "Farrow and Allen parted after Farrow discovered a sexual relationship between Allen and her adopted daughter Soon-Yi. During the subsequent custody battle involving Farrow's and Allen's three children, Farrow filed charges that Allen had molested their daughter Dylan, then seven years old." The assertion is completely unsourced, no-one bats an eye. ] (]) 06:58, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
			|status = withdrawn
			|result = Probably being a bit too zealous here on the whole civility thing, so closing this before I feed the fire any more. (] me, I've become the very editor I swore to fight) ] (]) 03:52, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			}}
			=== ] TBAN for ] ===
			Uninvolved editor here. I don't know much about ] technicalities that brought this issue here. What I do know is that ] conduct on here is clearly over the line, and suggests an inability to follow ] that suggests an inability to participate at AfD and a poor understanding of our deletion policy. Hence, I propose a topic ban from AfD. A word of personal advice for the user in question. If you have discovered new sources for an article previously deleted, first ask for an article to be restored to your user page, then improve the article, and then submit it through AfC. ] (]) 17:56, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			* '''Oppose'''. This would be for a grand total of '''three''' "incorrect" AFD !votes. That's it. Three. (] / ] / ]). Topic-banning an editor because there were three AFDs where they provided sources that were insufficient, whereas we have an editor at this discussion who was nominating potentially notable articles (and many notable articles) ''en masse'' without any search whatsoever, which included 50 AFDs in half as many minutes, is utterly ludicrous. This discussion should have been closed a long time ago with no action, or, if anything, a restriction on Bgsu98. ] (]) 18:15, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Oppose'''. While they have at times been obtuse in this ANI thread, they do not seem to have done any actual harm outside of it. I am opposed to the existence of a "thunderdome" area where people get summoned to do combat, yelled at by a dozen people for several days, and then banned if they happen to get mad during this.
	::::Well, the difference there is that the Mia Farrow article has facts ''about Mia Farrow'', albeit unsourced. The ] article should only include material relevant to the genetic sexual attraction phenomenon. In this case, it is a well-sourced fact that David Bruce McMahan had a sexual relationship with his genetic daughter, but there's no evidence or source that ''genetic sexual attraction was a factor in their relationship''. Hence it's out-of-place in that article. ] (]) 12:44, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
			:<b style="font-family:monospace;color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 21:20, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
	::::: Oh give me a break. So someone has sex with his daughter and I have to prove that "genetic sexual attraction is a factor?" ] (]) 19:30, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
			* '''Oppose.''' Even I think this is unnecessary at this point. ] ] 21:28, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:'''Oppose'''. The user is highly passionate about the subject. That’s great - and to be quite blunt, we should be encouraging that. The user identified a problematic behavior (rapid AfD nominations that did not appear, at first, to be BEFOREd properly). From what I’ve seen, those issues have been resolved - both by the user reported agreeing to slow down on their nominations and explain them better, as well as by the MC realizing that many of the coverages they’ve found are borderline ''at best'' for determining notability.
	::::Completely unsourced? A source can be added for a few sentences at a time. Source 22 in the article sources the statements you are quoting, with things like "Dr. Leventhal headed the hospital team that was asked by the Connecticut State Police to investigate the claim that Mr. Allen molested Dylan last August at Miss Farrow's summer home in Connecticut.","Mr. Allen's lawsuit to gain custody of Dylan and the couple's two other children" and "The doctor suggested a connection between Miss Farrow's outrage over Mr. Allen's affair with her adopted daughter, Soon-Yi Farrow Previn,". It could probably be sourced a lttile bit clearer, but it is all there. ] (]) 12:57, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
			:This thread got out of hand because people didn’t focus on the issue at hand. And I broadly agree with jpxg above - when rather than trying to refocus the thread people just pile on someone who made a good faith report, ''of course they’ll get a bit mad and make some mistakes that are borderline NPA/civility violations''. But ask yourself this - is recommending a BOOMERANG for a problem that’s resolved not inflaming the situation ''more''? -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez &#124; ] &#124; ] 21:30, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			::*'''Oppose''' As @] said this discussion should have been closed a long time ago. @] has been very uncivil at times on this thread and others, particularly in their language and questioning of other editors' motives and abilities, but hopefully they will learn from what has been said during this discussion and will not repeat this behaviour. I was in favour of giving @] a chance and I do not want to be hypocritical by not doing so with MC too.
			::] (]) 22:07, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{Archive bottom}}
			== ] and persistant ], ], and ]-failing articles ==
	===What Have I Started?===
	]
	Hello there, minion here. I just got a message on my talk page reminding me that this was here. Honestly once I saw a few of the more reliable users and an admin had gotten involved, I stopped checking in. If you look at the origional posting, WAY up top, you will see that before any of this media coverage spilled out, I was concerned about three issues. Media issues not withstanding, I thing that these issues have run their course in discussions, and move to end this mess.
	:Point 1: See below on my opinion on the Voice.
	:Point 2: I don't see any recent activity. We can bring this up again if it becomes a problem again.
	:Point 3: If an editor in good standing wants to create a well balanced and properly sourced article on this man, then I would have no objections. In the meantime, I see these pages being salted as a good thing.
			] has been creating articles on portuguese history for a while now. They seem to be a competent writer, but their understanding of ] and ] seems to be lacking substantially.
	Now it would appear that in my absence, the editor of the Voice has decided to drop a few levels on the pyramid. We are now in the orange and red areas. This begs the question. If the Village Voice is making statements that ''Jimbo Wales'' is calling false, is resorting to personal attacks, and is a blogger without editorial review, why do we consider him a good source? I think it's time we reexamine the Village Voice as a reliable source to be used in articles.
			* was deleted for ]
	I know that I'm not exactly uninvolved, but I think it bears being mentioned. Sorry if this causes more drama than it should, but at this point, I view the Village Voice as an anti-Misplaced Pages crusade, rather than a constructive source of journalism. <span style="text-shadow:#2f4f4f 0.10em 0.10em 0.10em"><font color="black">]</font> <sub><span style="text-shadow:#ffd700 0.14em 0.14em 0.14em"><font color="black">]</font></sub></span> 16:23, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
			* on ] and ] grounds
	:I think I know what you mean when you say "is making statements that ''Jimbo Wales'' is calling false" – you are evidently talking about claims made without evidence, and whose truth Jimbo Wales is in a good position to judge (i.e. accusations of undue influence on Misplaced Pages). But it's not necessarily coming across that way. ] ] 17:27, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
	::Direct quote from Jimbo from above in this ANI:
	:::But I think what he said was also false, and it is worth me saying so plainly. His claim appears to be that McMahan's money allowed him to intimidate Misplaced Pages into deleting the article through legal threats. That's absolutely false. There is no prohibition on creating the article from either the Foundation or me. Whether or not there should be an article about this topic is entirely up to the community in accordance with the usual procedures.
	::That is what I was referring to. <span style="text-shadow:#2f4f4f 0.10em 0.10em 0.10em"><font color="black">]</font> <sub><span style="text-shadow:#ffd700 0.14em 0.14em 0.14em"><font color="black">]</font></sub></span> 22:54, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
			* on ] and ]
	===A PR Disaster===
			*They've been warned about ] and .
	This is becoming a PR disaster, and it will hurt Misplaced Pages in a big way, if it not already does. Jimbo shot himself in the foot by becoming involved. If an article is truly killed due to mere non-notability, a Jimbo Wales doesn’t have to show up. Him showing up proves that there is much more to it. I have worked for more than 30 years in advertising and PR for large corporations. My specialty: Disaster management. First order of business: Take the CEO out of the picture and coat him with as much Teflon as available. I know how to astroturf without getting caught. I ran “enthusiast” websites with a well hidden agenda.
			*] which also still persist in articles (see now removed references in )
	Not notable? Mr. Mahan himself would beg to differ. There is his . There is . There is with a pitbabe to boot. And those are just the first three on Google (which shows that high level of expensive SOE is at work.) If the man is not notable enough, then 75% of Misplaced Pages should be thrown out. A philanthropist that helps children who lost their legs to landmines and who marries is own daughter is highly notable, if you ask me. This scandal doesn’t pass the vaunted ] at least not with me.
			*Plenty of articles containing only one source ], ], ], ], ], ]
	I am mentioned eight times by name in Misplaced Pages. I’m not notable at all. Does anybody patrol the pages and scrubs them, because I am a nobody? You need to be a McMahan to be extended that courtesy.
			Most recently there's ], which contains two sources and the only one easily accessible never mentions any Battle of Naband and indeed mentions the Naband itself only twice in the book. I've AFDd four of their last five or so articles in a row, with three now deleted.
	At Misplaced Pages, five editors and a few well chosen sock puppets (with a VPN, and one PC each – we know how fingerprints work) literally can change history. With a largish PR firm and a lawfirm, one can literally throw hundreds of well informed and well behaved editors at an issue – without getting caught. And I have no doubt that this is what is happening here. Can I prove it? No. But I can tell you how it’s done without even a twitch of the needle of a checkuser tool.
			Battle of Naband is my last article of theirs I'm AFDing. ] but it doesn't appear to have gone anywhere and I don't want to ] someone for mass creating low-quality articles. They're a competent writer but I feel that a time out from article creation without oversight may be helpful for everyone here. With the inscrutible sourcing and the repeated defense of a ] article above it's pretty impossible for inexpert editors to know if what's being presented is legit or not without sources or verifiability. ] 10:27, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
	What if McMahan would hire me? I would take the job. I hawked cigarettes, and I don’t smoke. I would have advised him to NOT do what is done here. DON’T suppress. It will bite you big time, as ] shows. It did’t work before the Internet either. Say “Yes, I did it, I’m sorry.” Contrition works miracles, especially in the U.S.A. “Look, we all made mistakes.” Is anybody hounding Woody Allan or Roman Polanski? Own up to it, and push your good side. Surround yourself with kids with one leg. Who can hate you? The world will forget quickly that you buggered your daughter if you don’t remind the world every waking day.
			:Sadly I have to support this. They simply don't have a grasp of our policies and guidelines despite all the AfDs where they've been discussed. ] ] 10:44, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
	Misplaced Pages would gain a lot if it would defend this article against interference. Let’s face it: Hedge fund owners are not high on the respectability scale anymore. Incest? No very popular. Heavy handed suppression of news? Not liked in this country. Misplaced Pages could look like a white knight that defends the virtues of democracy and free speech. Misplaced Pages defending its editors against a heavy handed, well armed posse would give the MSM the desperately needed opening to write about McMahan without receiving a fax “followed by registered mail.” Instead, Misplaced Pages shoots itself in the foot. Sad, very sad. ] (]) 19:45, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
			::I checked this ] which is at Afd. It wasn't a battle and hasn't been named as such by any historian. A small engagement at best. The sources are problematic, very very slim. I could only find a couple of small paras in a single source that seems to come from a single verbal report. I think they should all be draftified to be checked and any future work sent to draft. I couldn't find Naband? '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px black; font-family:Papyrus">]<sup>]</sup></span>''' 12:02, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Hello, here's my response regarding the issues raised:
			:*1) While I understand that the Luso-Danish expedition theory is not widely accepted, similar fringe theories, such as the "]," are allowed to remain on Misplaced Pages. I suggested adjustments to the article title and additional citations during our earlier discussion, but those suggestions were not incorporated.
			:*2) I still believe the topic is notable, even though it isn't widely discussed. I maintain that there is no issue with synthesis as the article does not present conclusions that aren't directly supported by the sources.
			:*3) I agree with the decision to delete the article in question, as I did not do my research properly, turns out it was not a colony or long standing controlled territory.
			:*4) I have never created a hoax article (Correction: Besides "Portuguese Newfoundland). The warning I received 10 months ago was for an article I translated from the Portuguese Misplaced Pages.
			:*5) I typically do this when the sources used do not provide page numbers, and it can be difficult for others to verify specific information.
			:*6) Many of the articles in question were created when I was beginning to edit on Misplaced Pages. I don’t mind improving research quality.
			:*7) The article now cites four sources, and there are additional mentions of the engagement in other books, I just didn’t cite all of them.
			:Additionally, I’ve noticed that you’ve consistently targeted my articles for deletion. While you have assured me that you're not trying to pressure me, it still feels as though there is a disproportionate focus on my work. I also noticed that you often skip over maintenance templates and go straight to nomination for deletion, even when the articles do not seem to have significant issues. A recent example would be the "]". ] (]) 12:35, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
			::{{tq|I’ve noticed that you’ve consistently targeted my articles for deletion. While you have assured me that you're not trying to pressure me, it still feels as though there is a disproportionate focus on my work.}}
			::I addressed this above, it's a tricky thing to strike a balance between ] and "This editor constantly makes articles that need oversight", which is why I brought this to ANI and said it'd be the last article of yours I AFD. It wasn't my intent to make you feel surveilled, though, which is why I called attention to that pattern of mine in the ANI itself.
			::{{tq|I also noticed that you often skip over maintenance templates and go straight to nomination for deletion, even when the articles do not seem to have significant issues.}}
			::Considering that these articles have, for the most part, been deleted, I don't think it's fair to summarize them as needing maintainence templates. Something that fails ] doesn't need a maintanence template if it's never going to pass ] and believe me, I am actually looking for sources before I nominate. It's actually why, for example
			::{{tq|A recent example would be the "Baloch-Portuguese conflicts".}}
			::I didn't AFD this one, but instead raised it on your talk page. That seemed to have ] issues but was much less cut and dry, so I reached out directly instead of AFDing it. I'm not going to maintenance-tag a page that may simply never pass ] before establishing that, because it risks wasting editors time. ] 12:51, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
			* The single-source articles probably need to go to AfD as well. There are literally no hits for a "Battle of Cape Coast", "Battle of Lucanzo", and a "Portudal–Joal Massacre" (and they are not referred to as such in the single source that ''is'' in the article). There is little doubt that these minor skirmishes occurred (so they're not hoaxes), but they don't appear to be notable either. They sound like information that should be included in a wider article about the topics involved. ] 17:33, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
	:<del>I'm not sure what you're getting at with all of the above. The VV editor made statements that indicated WP was paid off to ignore information regarding this person. An editor brought this to Jimbo's attention, and he replied with a short, but strongly worded statement denying it. Jimbo's statement was completely in keeping with his character. He often comments on controversial issues when asked. Had he '''not''' spoken out, anyone could have claimed that "Jimbo's silence on the issue is deafening." I am not sure why you seem to think this is a PR nightmare...McMahan is not really that well known (it's still to be determined if he even warrants and article). Whatever controversy exists has not been widely covered from what I can tell. Regardless, WP does not report the news, nor is it a gossip column, nor is it a place to give Mr. McMahan advice on how to handle his public/personal affairs </del> ] (]) 21:06, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
			* Based upon their comments here and at the various AfD's, I do not believe Jaozinhoanaozinho understands the problematic nature of their articles, nor do they apparently understand the ] policy. I propose and '''support''' a ban from article creation until, after gaining substantially more experience improving pre-existing articles without violating ], they gain that necessary understanding/competence. ] (]) 20:11, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
			* '''SUPPORT''' ban from article creation. ] ] 09:06, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			* '''Support''' a ban from article creation. I checked a couple more of them over the weekend. I'm not keen to see any more of these non-articles made in that manner. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px black; font-family:Papyrus">]<sup>]</sup></span>''' 09:34, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support''' article creation ban. ] (]) 19:35, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{hat|1=]. - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:21, 17 January 2025 (UTC)}}
			:*'''Support''' Ban.
			:] (]) 15:54, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:I think he also knows these are just theories. He is doing this for being extented confirmed user with ]. ] (]) 15:57, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::There is only one article I created that is based on theories, and I made it clear that fringe theories are acceptable on Misplaced Pages as long as they adhere to the guidelines. I also asked for specific changes to improve the article, but my requests were ignored.
			::I don't understand the sudden accusation of “gaming the system". Could you please specify which of my edits were allegedly made with the intent of gaining a higher user status? What personal theories have I supposedly pushed, or what specific actions have I taken to exploit the system for recognition? I would appreciate clarification. ] (]) 01:29, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Why would they ignore your request? That's would be ridicilous?! ] (]) 15:42, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::I think it's not quite fair to say they were ignored, more there was a discussion that the fringe article was never going to be acceptable, as opposed to having specific issues that could be addressed. ] 16:48, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::I dunno. ] (]) 16:51, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Please refrain from commenting on discussions you haven't read. Additionally, this user is a known sockpuppeteer. ] (]) 20:54, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{hab}}
			*'''Comment''' I think my needle has moved a wee bit to left re: ]. There is genuine reason here and I don't think its gaming the system. In this case it was a battle, but again, the source are very very slim. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px black; font-family:Papyrus">]<sup>]</sup></span>''' 08:55, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::I don't think the editor is capable of evaluating sources correctly and he should still be banned. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px black; font-family:Papyrus">]<sup>]</sup></span>''' 09:25, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I didn't create the article you've referenced? ] (]) 20:46, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Ignore (I didn't mean to reply to this specific comment) ] (]) 20:49, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Comment''' This is editor is still creating dog poor articles ]. This is the second in days thats been speedied. '''<span style="text-shadow:7px 7px 8px black; font-family:Papyrus">]<sup>]</sup></span>''' 19:20, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:I didn't create the article you've referenced? ] (]) 20:47, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			*Note that Sr. Blud is now blocked as a sockpuppet. ] ] 17:02, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			== User:Jwa05002 and User:RowanElder Making Ableist Comments On WP:Killing of Jordan Neely Talk Page, Threats In Lead ==
	::When the New York Times pays attention, then is a disaster, right now it is a couple of editors against a blogger. I for one have no idea who these people are, and I really don't give a s***. I brought this up because an editor at the VV was making potential libelous statements about Misplaced Pages, and because there already was meatpuppetry and confusion involved. '''I don't care if the man gets a page or not. If it meets the requirements for a page''' (without using Village Voice as a source) '''then it ''should'' have the page.''' I got involved because of the libel. I stayed because some blowhard with an agenda decided to turn a procedural delete into a conspiracy. Because people paid attention to this blowhard, it ''became'' what it is. We should have ignored him and moved on. It should have been done when with when I left the first time. An attack article was deleted, a puppet was blocked, and the admins were made aware of the potential libel. Instead, this head editor published a bunch of garbage without bothering to understand how Misplaced Pages works, and as a result, ''we're still here.''
			{{atop|1=RowanElder has apologised and their comments have been explained. Jwa05002 ignored the ] and has been indef'd with TPA revoked. Looks like we're done here. - ] <sub>]</sub> 21:49, 16 January 2025 (UTC)}}
			This occurred on the ], on the talk page section of ] @] decided they could say I couldn't ask for civility in a discussion after it became what I found uncivil. This discussion was already ended. They made comments that I couldn't ask for civility because apparently my userpage was uncivil. They then proceeded to say it was fine because I wasn't acting in bad faith but rather just being Autistic and incompetent because they saw I mentioned I was Autistic on my page and then linked to the competence required article. {{rpa}} and then went on a rant about how Misplaced Pages shouldn't allow "severely mentally ill people edit" and how it's sad that Misplaced Pages has devolved to it. RowanElder then proceeded to say it's fine and the admins would instead give me special help. I shouldn't need to say more really. ] (]) 06:19, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Oh forgot to @] ] (]) 06:24, 13 January 2025 (UTC) {{rpa}}
	'''MOTION''' Anyone who is not an admin or staff should stop posting here and ignore this mess. Let the pros sort it out. We're only feeding this fire and making things worse. <span style="text-shadow:#2f4f4f 0.10em 0.10em 0.10em"><font color="black">]</font> <sub><span style="text-shadow:#ffd700 0.14em 0.14em 0.14em"><font color="black">]</font></sub></span> 22:43, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
			*Akechi - typically, linking to specific ] rather than talk page sections is the best thing to do when making an ANI report; that is, linking {{diff|Talk:Killing of Jordan Neely|prev|1269116979}} and {{diff|Talk:Killing of Jordan Neely|prev|1269119175}}, which I assume are the comments you're referring to. Procedural niceties aside, I think you have a right to be upset - the comment by Jwa05002 seems to reflect a very ugly attitude toward mental illness, and RowanElder's remarks are incredibly patronizing - I don't think the comment in which {{they|RowanElder}} say {{tq|I hope Misplaced Pages can perhaps follow best practices from special education experts to deal with ways they may try to participate with disruptive incompetence. It's certainly not a personal attack to try to get people help, even when they take it as such and even react violently against the help as if it were an attack.}}{{diff|Talk:Killing of Jordan Neely|prev|1269120723}} could have been more perfectly calculated to infuriate its target if that were {{their|RowanElder}} intention, and when {{they|RowanElder}} commented {{tq|...you're probably deliberately victimizing people who share your struggle. It's sad to see, but again, I'm assuming good faith and I'm sympathetic rather than insulting here}}{{diff|Talk:Killing of Jordan Neely|prev|1269139598}} it does not at all come across like someone who is AGFing. I hope the community will agree that the conduct of these two users is not acceptable and make that clear to them. ] <small>(he/him · ] · ])</small> 07:10, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
	===A Proposition===
			*:Who would have more relevant expertise than special education experts, here? Honestly? In dealing with good faith but disruptive contributions to something a lot like classwork?
	Strike all that above. I am not sure I understand your post well enough, and re-reading my reply I think I may have assumed bad faith. My apologies if so.
			*:Please assume good faith for me as well, here. ] (]) 07:29, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::You cannot substitute your personal experience for ], nor can you analyze other editors, and especially you cannot resort to ] such as {{tq|disruptive incompetence}}. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 18:37, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::I am definitely confused about this.
			*:::First, I have seen and been told "competence is required" many times and I generally assumed good faith constructive criticism and policy enforcement there rather than that the person invoking "competence is required" was making a personal attack. I have had a lot of trouble understanding what is regarded as incivility and not in this community.
			*:::Second, it seems prima facie that editors do analyze one another frequently, for instance I was just analyzed and will be further analyzed in this incident notice discussion so long as it continues, so I am confused what you mean here. ] (]) 20:14, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::] is an evaluation ''only'' when users have demonstrated repeated inability to edit collaboratively due to either refusal to read the rules, or inability comprehend them. It's not a blanket for you to insult a user by stating their edits are {{tq|disruptive incompetence}}.
			*::::Your second point is rhetorical wordplay, and does not reflect well on you. Knock it off. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 19:04, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::::I don't understand this and I'm not doing wordplay. I'm genuinely confused. But I'll knock it off anyway; I'm going to take a break. ] (]) 23:39, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::As a disabled person who currently works in special education, there are ''many'' reasons we wouldn't want "special education experts" (or their suggestions) dispatched to deal with a Certain Kind of Contributor. For one, it's a bit patronizing as described above--why do certain editors have to be dealt with under certain different people or rules? It's also worth noting that a lot of special education professionals, even ones who believe they're doing good things, often adopt practices that can be hurtful or problematic--this is all anecdotal, of course, but a number of my coworkers will miss very obvious potential causes of student distress just because they don't get distressed by the same thing, and at least one of my other coworkers was directly ableist to another of my coworkers behind her back without even realizing that's what she was doing. If there's anyone who can speak to best practices about interaction it's probably people with the disability in question (i.e. the ] stance), but to be honest, in practice, Misplaced Pages's existing guidelines and policies regarding user interaction and editing do a pretty good job of setting the ground rules and describing what you need to do to edit collaboratively in a productive way. - ] (]) 19:58, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::My comments did not communicate my intent well to this community, and I have apologized for that. I recognize these concerns, and if I had written longer comments, adding these concerns would have been among my first extensions of what I wrote. I was disruptively incompetent when it came to speaking to the sensitivities in this community. ] (]) 20:07, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:(0) The discussion had seemed inconclusive to me rather than ended. My prior experience as an editor has been mostly on pages where weeks can go between talk messages easily, so if this was a mistake it was a newcomer's mistake of not understanding the different tempo on this page.
			:(1) I did not say @] could not ask for civility; I did find it ironic that they would ask for civility given that their userpage at that time seemed quite uncivil. I do think this indicates incompetence at judging civility and incivility and I, possibly erroneously, did not think it would be an aspersion or personal attack to say so on the basis of the immediate and policy-relevant (disruptive editing policy, explained by "competence is required") evidence. There is a "competence is required" principle and I have seen it invoked without violating the "no personal attacks" policy, though I'll be first to admit I don't understand the lines there very well.
			:(2) I did not endorse or "go along with" @]'s characterization of @] as schizophrenic: I passed over it in silence trying "not to take the bait" of what could have easily become personal attacks (not that I thought @] was making a personal attack there, more like personally despairing of the challenge of finding consensus about reality with self-identified schizophrenics and autistics). I flatly disagreed with @] that "this is what Misplaced Pages has become."
			:(3) I do endorse a general principle that when mental illness compromises an editor's competence, they should not edit Misplaced Pages in the domains in which they are thereby incompetent. I do believe "competence is required" and I don't know why mental illness would possibly be an exception. (I can't imagine what fun I might have had editing in the archaeoastronomy area recently if Misplaced Pages did allow that exception!)
			:(4) I do hope that the admins and arbs and the community as a whole will figure out good, humane best practices for dealing with mentally ill editors on Misplaced Pages. ] (]) 07:19, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::I'd like everyone to everyone to note point 4, I think we should note the "humane best practices for dealing with mentally ill editors on Misplaced Pages" part. ] (]) 07:36, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Should Misplaced Pages deal inhumanely with the mental ill? What is going on here? I am extremely lost. ] (]) 07:41, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::''You cannot diagnose other people as mentally ill''. That is a direct personal attack and can result in you being sanctioned. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 18:38, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::Yes, of course: I did not call anyone mentally ill much less diagnose anyone. I pointed out that an editor self-identified as autistic without intending that to be an attack. And I won't even do that again, since "assuming good faith" is not extending to "assuming that references to mental illness are not necessarily attacks." Probably correctly, in retrospect for me! But the "assume good faith" policy has been something I've myself been incompetent to understand in its community-consensus application so far on Misplaced Pages, and so I was disruptively incompetent and I've both apologized for that and said I would avoid doing it again. ] (]) 19:56, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::The user in question has described themselves as schizophrenic in previous posts. Schizophrenia by definition is a mental illness.
			:::::] ] (]) 20:15, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::No I didn't you are thinking of another user I will not name. ] (]) 23:51, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:{{edit conflict}} (but I did the work, so I'm posting it) {{Non-admin comment|admin}} OP, you should provide diffs. You did link to the conversation, but every specific instance of untowardness you mention should be cited directly, as a courtesy to the admins' time. But I read the whole conversation and don't like it, so I did some legwork for you. {{tq|They then proceeded to say it was fine because I wasn't acting in bad faith but rather just being Autistic}}. This edit was amended. {{tq|Jwa proceeded to come in and say I was a schizophrenic}}. {{tq|RowanElder then proceeded to say it's fine and the admins would instead give me special help}}.
			:I view assuming an autistic person's edits to be a result of incompetence to not actually be ], but I defer. I don't know that this warrants being at ANI or if it's just bad behavior, but the schizophrenia thing certainly deserves an apology from both of them. I'm not involved. Just providing diffs. POST EDIT CONFLICT: I also don't buy Rowan's argument that they weren't going along with the schizophrenia thing. <span style="font-family:monospace">]]</span> 07:23, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
	I have a bit of a sinking feeling about this whole thread, going all the way back to the most recent AFD discussion. I want to assume good faith, but I can't help but wonder if this whole thread is being perpetuated by interested parties in order to keep McMahan's name "out there." Therefore I am going to make a bold proposition, which I suspect may be met with skepticism that I am somehow in cahoots with one or the other involved parties. And if this is a horrible idea, please feel free to say so. I am not an admin, but I wonder what others think about possibly courtesy blanking, revdeleting, or whatever the proper procedue for blanking this discussion would be due to the follwoing reasons.:
			::"You don't buy it"? Where is the assumption of good faith here? ] (]) 07:30, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::I did not generically assume "an autistic person's edits to be a result of incompetence" but specifically suggested that their social judgment about particular incivility was incompetent in this case. I would never do the former, and frankly it is an aspersion to suggest I did. ] (]) 07:37, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Are you saying I or other Autistic people for that matter can't pass social judgement? ] (]) 07:50, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::No. I thought you had already made a poor social judgment and I was looking for a good faith explanation that would not be a personal attack. I thought that, if you are really up front about your autism like on your userpage, then you would not feel being called autistic would be an insult. I would never have speculated about it if you were not already identified and I thought it was a misjudgment before I read your userpage. ] (]) 08:12, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::You obviously have never met an Autistic person because calling someone out their disability and going "but don't worry though your just Autistic so you didn't do it in bad faith or anything". You don't think that sounds patronising or rude, you just didn't like my social judgement and saw my disability as a way to excuse yourself. ] (]) 08:16, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::"You obviously have never met an Autistic person" is wildly uncivil, ungrounded, personal attack. I am really lost here. ] (]) 08:18, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Sorry I didn't give diffs I'm kinda new to this stuff. Thank you for putting in the effort as well. ] (]) 07:38, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*], you are revealing a lot of personal information here about other editors that might need to be revision deleted. Please do not do that in the future. There are a lot of BLP violations in this discussion so far and assumptions about "mental illness" as well that are distressing to see from other editors. But, Akechi, I also notice that you are spending all of your talk on your User page and talk pages like ] instead of editing to improve articles. Your own User page states {{tq|I'd rather not edit Misplaced Pages and rather just discuss disputes, move requests and talk about usage of sources or claims of bias, I'm not very good at source editing}} which is not a good sign for an editor on this project. Jwa05002 is also spending all of their time on ] so maybe you both could use a partial block from this talk page. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 07:36, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
	We have a very long and detailed discussion that:
			*:I wouldn't mind that actually, also please do remove the mentions of me saying who the user who had schizophrenia was, I realise now that it's not my place to talk about. ] (]) 07:40, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::I am also looking to get into editing articles, though I do not have the time to be a full time editor. ] (]) 07:42, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*Those comments by @] and @] are beyond the pale. Stating that mental illness or neurodivergence is a ] issue should never be tolerated, particularly given it's highly likely that a lot of our community are neurodiverse or mentally ill. Blocks should follow for both editors. '']''<sup>]</sup> 07:43, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::It's also surreal to see the comments about autism in this discussion, you do know, I hope, that we have probably hundreds of active editors on this project that are autistic or are on the spectrum. It's not rare to be an autistic editor on Misplaced Pages. Not everyone chooses to put that fact on their User page but that doesn't erase their presence. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 07:44, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Given that the editors seem a lot more interested in arguing on talk pages, I'd suggest there's some ] going on. '']''<sup>]</sup> 07:51, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I made exactly this point that there are a lot on Misplaced Pages in one of my comments about a likely unintended consequence of @]'s incivility on their userpage, which, I quote, included "I really hope that upsets some of the weirder users of this site." ] (]) 07:53, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::The full quote is "I Autistic and pansexual (I really hope that upsets some of the weirder users of this site.).". And clearly being Autistic upset a couple of people. ] (]) 07:54, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::And no the lack of am is not a typo. ] (]) 07:56, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::Please assume good faith! Autism did not upset me and nor did pansexuality. But "I hope I upset people who do not share my values" cannot possibly be civil discourse. ] (]) 07:57, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::It's not my values it's my existence, being Autistic or Pansexual isn't values, it's just how I am. ] (]) 07:59, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::At ] you wrote: "{{tq|I'm going to assume good faith and cite that user page: that this user is most likely a self-described autistic acting incompetently rather than in bad faith. Unfortunately, competence is required, see ]}}". I don't see any other interpretation for that than an act with malice directed towards a neurodiverse editor because of their neurodivergence. '']''<sup>]</sup> 07:58, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::How about this: I was baffled by the level of incivility and I thought this would be an honorable way out of a bad look for Akechi, since I don't stigmatize the social blindness of the autistic? It was a horrible, horrible mistake but I thought that ''because'' autism is so well accepted here, including by myself, that this would be a place I could make a narrow recommendation: "hey, this matter of incivility is a social misjudgment of a kind that probably does have a good faith explanation." ] (]) 08:04, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::You are assuming I can't make social judgements, that seems uncivil to me. I have just same right to make social judgements as you do. ] (]) 08:06, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::I was not assuming that you could not. I saw what I thought was a terrible misjudgment that @] was struggling to see in any good faith way and suggesting a way to recover good faith, but without excusing the brazen incivility I thought I saw. ] (]) 08:08, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::I did not say mental illness is in itself a WP:CIR issue. I said that, at times, particular mental illness will imply particular WP:CIR issues. What in the world is going on? ] (]) 07:55, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Jwa heavily implied and you didn't call him out. ] (]) 07:57, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I've quoted exactly what you said above just now. You don't have much wiggle room there. '']''<sup>]</sup> 08:00, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Yes, autism is specifically correlated with social blindnesses. It's definitionally constitutive. That means that specifically for judgments of tone, like the one Akeshi was implicitly making, autism seemed relevant – and ''exculpatory''! ] (]) 08:07, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::It's not social blindnesses it's a sometimes struggle to pick up on social cues (Autistic people display a range of symptoms and some differ), also cool you do think I can't make social judgements. ] (]) 08:09, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::Your ill-founded judgments aren't doing you any favours here. You should be offering an unreserved apology to Akechi and then having the good sense to shut up before someone starts a block discussion. '']''<sup>]</sup> 08:10, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::Clearly, it is not doing me favors and I am deeply deeply confused. I wouldn't know what to apologize for, at this point. ] (]) 08:20, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::For starters, for implying that an autistic editor was somehow less competent than other editors. I'm going to assume good faith that that may not have been your intent, but it's ''absolutely'' the way literally everybody else has taken it. - ] <sub>]</sub> 08:25, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::Thank you: I apologize completely for saying what I did in such a way that it was taken by everyone else as saying that an autistic editor was somehow less competent than other editors because they were autistic. ] (]) 08:29, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::(I repeated a variant of this apology below, more personally to @], and Akechi graciously accepted the apology there. Thanks again @].) ] (]) 08:46, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:It seems to me that we are dealing with the intersection of two issues here. The content issue is that Jordan Neely was misbehaving severely on a subway car, and the intervention of Daniel Penny lead, quite sadly, to his death. Since Penny was acquitted, ] policy forbids Misplaced Pages editors from describing Penny as a "bad person" or implying guilt. The second issue is how editors should interact during content disputes with other editors who self-describe on their user page as autistic and having ADHD and being pansexual and an agent of chaos. Personally, I do not care about "pansexual" in the slightest because I could not care less what editors do or don't in bed or on the sofa (couch). Autistic editors and editors with ADHD are perfectly welcome to edit Misplaced Pages as long as they comply with our policies and behavioral guidelines, just as every other editor is expected to do. If I happened to state "I am not autistic" on my user page (which I don't), then I would not expect any harsher treatment for misconduct than another editor who claims to be autistic. Since all editors should be treated the same within reason, I do not see the benefit of these declarations. They are often perceived as a claim to preferential treatment, but editors are perfectly free to make such declarations as long as they understand that other editors are likely to read them and draw inferences, stated openly or not. As for the inherent declaration in their username that the editor is {{tpq|The Agent Of Chaos}}, I find that far more troubling than the other self-declarations. The most generous interpretation is that the editor is trying too hard to be ironic and amusing, like the new hipster pizzeria in my home town that actually makes great innovative pizzas. But combined with the other self-declarations, I am confronted with legitimate questions about what this editor's goals and intentions actually are here, and I should remind the editor that actual agents of chaos get blocked pretty promptly on Misplaced Pages. ] (]) 07:59, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
	:1. Involves a living person, who no longer even has an article on WP due to notability and other reasons.
			*::Do you really think that me calling myself an Agent Of Chaos is a serious thing and not just a reference. ] (]) 08:01, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::Like it's my name, I know there is an editor that has The Liar at the end of their username do we assume they are one. ] (]) 08:05, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::I'm just stating my mental disabilities dude why is this a problem, are you gonna get mad at my userbox that says the same thing. ] (]) 08:02, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::{{u|Akechi The Agent Of Chaos}}, I think that you have dug a hole for yourself, and instead of climbing out, you are digging ever deeper. In the simplest terms, this is a project to build an encyclopedia. Why should anyone reading this thread be reassured that you share that goal? ] (]) 08:11, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::What does that have anything to do with this discussion other than you trying excuse others of wrongdoings. ] (]) 08:13, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::::@], the behaviour of all involved parties in under the microscope when you make reports here. '']''<sup>]</sup> 08:15, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::::Fair, I am getting into article editing, also how old is my account, what like a few months old, this is getting to ] stuff. This sounds like an excuse but I am trying to be a helpful member of the community and I'm kinda scared that I will mess things up with source editing. ] (]) 08:18, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::::::I'm going to stop talking now. ] (]) 08:19, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::::::For the admins' consideration, this reply is (I hope) partly because of me . So it sounds like they're willing to take advice. <span style="font-family:monospace">]]</span> 08:26, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::::::If you want to be helpful, start ] or review the ] looking for vandalism that needs reverting (make sure you set the filters appropriately) or anything that directly assists with the quality of articles. If you don't do at least something to help with building the project, it won't take long for others to decide that you are ] '']''<sup>]</sup> 08:46, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::::::::Thanks to Closhund's suggestions I actually started copy editing, it's not that scary anymore. I think I was just overwhelmed with editing massive cyclopedia. ] (]) 08:49, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::This is an interesting point - I posted a userbox saying I have ADHD, along with liking videogames and cats, as I see it as a part of me that I absolutely hated for decades until I was diagnosed recently. I posted it as a way to perhaps ask for a little patience, as I might be more prone to long posts or changing my edits after having another thought or idea (impulse control is an issue with ADHD). In my case, I intended it as an explanation, ''not'' an excuse. I still really and expect to be treated the same as anyone else.
			*::Nevertheless, I angered someone earlier, who weaponised my ADHD and used it to claim I was incompetent and shouldn't be here. Quite a few admins were singled out in those posts, but they specifically focused on my ADHD for an inordinate amount of time. They were also cut and pasted into other people's Talk pages.
			*::Whilst I'm well aware this was a malicious user and am ''not'' ashamed of my ADHD, nor will I hide it (I've done that for far too long), I'm now thinking I should remove those boxes - this is the internet, you can't tell what other people are thinking and it's easy to misunderstand others.
			*::Neurodivergence is a relatively-new condition (compared to depression, anxiety etc. it's only really been accepted in the past few decades), so there are a lot of misunderstandings and stigma attached to it. The prevalence of self-diagnosis and misinformation on social media doesn't help, as there are those who do want attention and/or use it as an excuse.
			*::I'm not sure what I'm going to do to be honest. I might remove the userboxes since they're apparently doing more harm than good. I've got to work now, but I'll decide later & just wanted to put this view forward. ] (]) 08:21, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::BTW Apologies if this is now off-topic, the thread was moving really fast! ] (]) 08:26, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::], userboxes are a personal decision you have to make. Just know that many editors don't make use of userboxes and could very well share interests and conditions with those editors who do post them. It's self-identification and that can change over time. I think the one thing you can't control is how editors who encounter a self-identification will perceive you. That fact has caused some editors to simply blank their User pages so they don't have to worry about how bits of data about themselves could lead to other editors' judging them. But other individuals want to put all of their cards on the table. It's your call and just know, you can change your mind about it any time you want. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 08:31, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::@] Exactly right - I was aware of the negative perception, but someone who's looking for a reason to dislike another person will usually pick up on stuff like that first since it's an easy target. My workplace has been incredibly supportive so I've been letting my guard down, but that's not really a good idea online. Plus the userboxes were all shiny & colourful so I headed straight for them without thinking!
			:::::I don't know if I'll keep the ADHD box since it may be doing more harm than good but the cat one will stay for now, since my furry demonic familiar demands it. ] (]) 14:53, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::With due respect, Cullen, I very strongly disagree with you when you say {{tq|"They are often perceived as a claim to preferential treatment"}}. This in and of itself can be considered ableist in a way and arguably a failure to AGF. Since neurodivergent people are quite literally ''defined'' by their neurotypes, this is no more or less self-identifying than, for example, gender orientation declarations; both are useful for editors wishing to meet, work with, and, importantly, take advice from editors who share identities and thus can relate. I second what Liz says below.
			:::I have no comment on this particular situation otherwise as an apology appears to have been made. ] ] 10:45, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::If you don't mind, I've apologized and I meant it, and I'm trying to understand what I could have done differently at a finer grain than "never engage about any issue of mental health with respect to competence on Misplaced Pages again," which will be my safety-first default from here until I do get better understanding.
			::::This reply confused me, and if I can ask without being seen to be hunting for chinks in armor or trying to litigate after the issue is resolved or anything like that, @], was this meant to be a disagreement that {{tq|They are often perceived as a claim to preferential treatment}}, i.e., a disagreement that that particular form of ableist prejudice exists? Or is it a disagreement with the prejudice, and thus an implicit attribution of the prejudice to @]? The latter did not seem like the most natural good faith reading of @]'s comment, but the former doesn't make sense to me together with {{tq|This in and of itself can be considered ableist in a way}} since it doesn't seem sensible that recognizing the fact of ableist prejudice would be in itself ableist (it seems the opposite, that recognizing such prejudices exist is often part of fighting such prejudices).
			::::I've been incompetent at judging what people would interpret of my posts so far, and if I'm being incompetent in this interpretation in this reply in some blameworthy way I'll happily apologize for this as well, but I'm genuinely lost and would appreciate some more light on this if it's not a pain to provide it. ] (]) 15:20, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::To my understanding, Cullen328 seemed to be stating (without referring to specific evidence, so it's unclear what their supporting evidence for this is) that editors who see someone have a userbox that refers to their disability assume the disabled editor is looking for special treatment. I think Jasper Deng's response was suggesting the following: people who assume disabled editors are looking for special treatment because they disclosed their disability are not assuming good faith of those disabled editors and might be doing something ableist by making that assumption. For a lot of people, sharing that they're disabled is no different than sharing that they're gay or a woman, and most people would not look at someone disclosing one of ''those'' and also think the editor is looking for preferential treatment. My understanding might be wrong, but it's what I'm getting from this interaction. Does that make sense? - ] (]) 22:53, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::I do think that makes sense, insofar as I do definitely understand how the belief "they are claims to preferential treatment" would be judged to be ableist, but it doesn't address my confusion. This was what I meant by "the latter" of the two interpretive alternatives in my comment just before this. My confusion was about why @] would have said that together with {{tq|I very strongly disagree with you}} when I didn't see @] necessarily endorsing the belief "they are claims to preferential treatment" in their original comment, just the belief "they are often perceived as claims for preferential treatment," which would not itself imply @] has or agrees with that perception. ] (]) 01:07, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::Thanks for your prior reply, and don't worry about this one after all. I'm going to stop trying to engage here and stop trying to figure out my confusion, I've had enough. ] (]) 23:41, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::@] To be entirely fair, the phrase "Agent of Chaos" is fairly common in various forms of media and seems more likely to be a reference to something (], or , or , etc.) than an indicator that the user is acting in bad faith. ] (]) 04:59, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::{{u|CambrianCrab}}, I readily agree that the "agent of chaos" concept is used in certain genres of fiction. But we are not writing a work of fiction here. We are writing an encyclopedia and anyone who actually behaves like a agent of chaos gets blocked promptly and indefinitely. So, I do not think that it is unreasonable to express concern about an editor choosing to portray themself that way. ] (]) 05:19, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::Would you like me to change my name if it concerns you that much ] (]) 06:05, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::I get like username policy and names shouldn't imply intent to troll and stuff but if we actually enforced that tons of people would have to change their usernames, once again I know a user that has The Liar at the end of their name but they aren't one. I feel like the most reasonable assumption is that my username is either a joke or a reference, as it is both. I feel like it's not assuming of good faith to think I'm an actual agent of chaos just because my username says I am. ] (]) 06:18, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::Cullen, I think this is reaching. Just as my name is a play on words, Agent of Chaos is also a tongue in cheek username that does not strike me as indicative of the user's intent to cause harm. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 19:06, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::I agree this is reaching and one thing i hate is when people try to find something completely unrelated and throw a fit about it ]] 20:36, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::Cyberwolf is fiction so… ]] 20:38, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Mental illness can create a competency issue in pretty much any aspect of life. For example, a person can be found too mentally ill to stand trial in a court. I’m not sure why wikipedia should be an exception.
			::It’s unfortunate and sad for sure, but it’s simply a fact that some people are too mentally ill to be objective, reasonable, and yes even competent.
			::Obviously there are varying degrees of mental illness, and some are able to control it better than others. But there should definitely be a threshold where reasonable can say “this person is too mentally ill to edit” ] (]) 18:26, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I think that's not a judgement any complete stranger can make over the internet, including on Misplaced Pages. You could definitely call attention to disputed content or problematic conduct without making the assumption that it's connected to the disability of someone you do not know personally based on what you think you know about a specific editor, their disability, or how the latter affects the former. People can definitely come to consensuses that users cannot edit constructively without needing to declare that it's ''because they have a specific disability''. Connecting the two like that is very likely to instead come across as (and/or ''be'') a personal attack. - ] (]) 22:40, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:@] I apologize completely and unreservedly for saying what I did in such a way that it was taken by you (and everyone else who has said something here so far, but especially by you because your feelings were the ones hurt) as saying that you were less competent than other editors because you were autistic.
	:2. Is peppered with potentially libelous allegations from the sources in question sources that he had a sexual relationship with his daughter.
			:That seems important to say before any finer-grained points. I am sorry for that, completely and unreservedly. ] (]) 08:31, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Thank you, I accept your apology ] (]) 08:37, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::The bottom line is that '''every single editor''' is expected to fully follow our behavioral guidelines, no matter what they believe about their own mental health or what diagnoses that professionals have made. I was feeling quite depressed about ten day ago for reasons that have nothing to do with Misplaced Pages, and I have been climbing out of it without letting it affect my editing, because my Misplaced Pages editing gives me solace. If any editor is confident that they can edit productively despite a mental health challenge, then go for it. If your specific challenge impedes useful collaborative editing,then take a break until you feel better. ] (]) 08:39, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::I will keep that in mind ] (]) 08:41, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::::Once Jwa receives this I won't get involved. ] (]) 08:42, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::Thanks for that grace. ] (]) 08:43, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::It's good to see a proper apology here. I must admit that I'm so used to seeing non-apology apologies that that is what I was expecting. ] (]) 09:49, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::I've meant it from the beginning that I didn't intend to use @]'s autism as a disqualification of them. I considered the incivility disqualifying and I considered their comments about civility to show additional disqualifying incompetence of social judgment, and then I intended to highlight their self-identified autism as a possible way of reconciling the incivility and incompetence with good faith to cool and stop the uncivil running conflict with @] (who I thought was also responsible for incivility and making poor judgment calls, such as moving from the specific/local frustration about incompetence and incivility (actually blameworthy) to general/global frustration with neurodivergence (not blameworthy)).
			*::::This I now see was naive and strongly against community norms, in particular viewed as unacceptably patronizing and ableist in itself, and so I'm not going to do that again here and I do find it easy to make a complete and genuine apology for having broken those norms.
			*::::In my friendships and collaborations with autistic people in offline life, I will continue to do what has made my friendships and collaborations with them work so far. This sometimes does include very direct conversation about when to step away from fights when someone is missing social cues, but in my context it is rarely blamably patronizing or ableist to do so since there's an already strong expectation of respect for neurodivergence (and in the rare cases it is blamably patronizing or ableist, I also listen to that and stop as quickly as possible, like I am here). One of my main takeaways here is that on Misplaced Pages, the general patterns of unwanted but de facto incivility mean that there is not strong expectation that people do already respect the neurodivergent, in fact the reverse: a pretty strong expectation that communication that could be disrespect for the neurodivergent is disrespect for the neurodivergent. That seems true (that too many people don't respect neurodivergence) and important, and insofar as I wasn't already seeing it, it was because I was tripping over the "assume good faith" policy trying not to assume others were prejudiced against the neurodivergent and/or disrespecting the neurodivergent (since that seemed like it would be assuming bad faith).
			*::::I don't yet understand how to reconcile "assume good faith" and "proactively defend people from systemic prejudices" very well. Off of Misplaced Pages I just don't assume good faith! It's something I think a lot of contemporary American political discourse has been choking on, and I think it'll be worth my time to continue thinking about it with this additional information from this experience. ] (]) 16:50, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::::Hey to be honest this is a model example on how to apologize on and explain your behavior and how you want to improve here. This is what we need more of. I read through your apology several times and can’t detect bad faith from you. You’ve done well and I’ll admit working with neurodivergent individuals can be/will be challenging w/o pretty much whole life experience. I’ve made mistakes. We all will. :3 ]] 17:42, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::::Thank you, this means a lot. I was worried it was just being taken as more bad faith when I wasn't getting other replies earlier. I've had a terrible time here and I need a break. ] (]) 23:45, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::::::No you did great ]] 23:55, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::::::Thanks. Really, I do mean it. Still, on my own terms I don't feel at all good and I should take some time away. ] (]) 23:58, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::::::::wikipedians who are in this big of ani and are the subjects, should take a big break this is the most scary stressful and some what notorious page ]] 00:13, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:While I can't comment on @] as I've not interacted with them, I will note that I already reported @] concerning (in part) some of these issues about a month ago. People wanting to judge any misbehavior, with full context, may want to read ] where I engaged with them on it, as well as ], which has specific diffs (all of this was when my username was LaughingManiac).
	:3. Contains statements that, though I would not consider to be legal threats exactly, are insinuations that WP is setting itself up for legal ramifications based on its action/inaction in regards to this subject (depending on who you are talking to at the time.
			:For full disclosure, since I was fairly heavily involved at ] and promised to disengage to avoid ], I'll attempt to refrain from getting too deep into this particular discussion. It also bears mentioning that I ended up retracting the report myself, as can be seen above. Part of it was based on my own experience as a mentally ill person and expectations concerning how the topic be handled, and I found that Jwa05002 made a valid point that personal experience cannot dictate neutral Misplaced Pages editing, something which seemed supported by ], specifically the last sentence. So, I closed the report (with the - ] - mutual understanding that there would be no more ] on Jwa05002's part), and disengaged.
			:I can say that my personal view of this subject is that there were problematic undertones both in how Jordan Neely's mental illness had been weaponized by Penny's defense, as well as in how it was being discussed on the talk page. I found Jwa05002's own mentions and utilization of the topic very offensive, to me personally, which is (in part) why I disengaged, since because I was personally affected in this case, I felt it would be difficult for me to participate neutrally. On a semi-related point, I do feel that Misplaced Pages in general would benefit from stricter guidelines concerning "personal experiences" beyond merely dismissing them, given that the manner in which some of the content in cases like these is treated, as well as the overt and rampant generalizations or prejudiced discourse against already vulnerable populations, may well discourage marginalized editors from contributing. But, this is ultimately a different topic that would be better suited for ].
			:I will also mention, however, that it'd be rather disappointing in my view if (which to me reads like a personal attack, never even mind that the notion that "severely mentally ill people" shouldn't be allowed to participate on Misplaced Pages is deeply troubling to me) is allowed to stand.
			:{{underline|EDIT: For ''fuller'' disclosure, I will note that I was pinged to this discussion by Akechi mentioning me, in diffs ] I'm unsure whether this counts as ]? Hopefully not - my intent here is merely to provide context concerning a dispute in which I was originally involved in, which seems relevant, if not identical, to this one in my eyes.}} ] (]) 17:29, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:I know little about the Jordan Neely case, and have not investigated it in particular, but have to give a few words about Misplaced Pages editing by people who are mentally ill or neurodivergent. I have a mental illess (I don't know if it's severe enough for {{u|Jwa05002}}, but I lost about half my working life because of it), and, largely through that, I know plenty of people with autism, ADHD and schizophrenia. I don't choose to display my mental status on my user page, but reveal it when relevant. I just checked and a have made nearly 49,000 edits since 2007. I don't think anyone has spotted my mental condition in all that time, because I take reponsibility for my editing and do not edit when I'm not up to it. If all the people with a mental illess or neurodivergence left Misplaced Pages it would be a much poorer place, and might not even exist. Some people with those conditions are very good editors, and some are not so good, just like "normal" people. I hope we can accept such people just as we can accept people of different genders, nationalities, sexual preferences etc. ] (]) 18:01, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::There are absolutely varying degrees of mental illness and it wasn’t my intention to imply anyone who suffers from a mental illness should not edit Misplaced Pages pages.
			::in this case, my comment was directed at one specific editor.
			::its unfortunate for sure, but some people simply aren’t capable of being objective and reasonable enough to edit pages.
			::this admin page is full of examples of users being blocked from editing because they simply aren’t able to handle the responsibility that comes with it. ] (]) 18:42, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Have I displayed any of that because you've kinda been urging me to stop being on the talk page for a while because of my extreme bias, which I genuinely don't know what you are talking about. This just seems like you found a more reasonable way to try and get me to stop editing. ] (]) 23:56, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::@], rather than defending your comments on the article's talk page you should be offering an unreserved apology to Akechi. '']''<sup>]</sup> 02:07, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::I went back and looked through that entire discussion (about schizophrenia) and I see that there were 2 different editors besides me during the conversation.
			::::so I do apologize for conflating the two of you (Akechi and whoever the other editor was)
			::::I honestly did not realize Akechi was not the editor who volunteered they had a schizophrenia diagnosis. That’s for sure my mistake. Akechi, I apologize for implying you’d been diagnosed with a mental illness. ] (]) 03:20, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::Cool, do you also wanna apologise for the comments you made about severely mentally ill people, as well as just assuming I was because of my Autism. You could also just apologise generally to the user with schizophrenia they should see it, because honestly it's kind of disgusting to imply someone isn't competent because of their disabilities. ] (]) 05:07, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::I don’t. I stand by my statement that “severely mentally ill” people shouldn’t make edits to Misplaced Pages articles.
			::::::Schizophrenia is a “severe mental illness” (don’t take my word for it, check out the Misplaced Pages article about it). That’s tragic and sad for sure, but still in my opinion, people suffering from that type of severe mental illness aren’t competent to edit Misplaced Pages articles. ] (]) 05:26, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::That is not you're decision to make and mental illnesses can vary in condition, we judge people's actions not how they were born. ] (]) 06:06, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::Jwa05002, I know many people with schizophrenia who would be perfectly capable of writing Misplaced Pages articles. We block/ban people because of what they do on Misplaced Pages, not because of whether they happen to have a broken leg, cancer or schizophrenia. ] (]) 08:32, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::Just stating one more time that I never agreed with this position. ] (]) 23:46, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Yes, just in case anyone finds it meaningful I'll reaffirm my commitment to these principles as well. I specifically avoided "severe enough" language because I don't think any "overall amount" would be relevant. I spoke about impacts on specific, relevant domains. Someone can be dealing with crippling catatonic panic attacks or having outright hallucinations offline and also still be participating in Misplaced Pages constructively and valuably when they're up for it. All my evidence is that both have in fact happened in real cases, constructively and for the best. My primary principle here was that editors should not contribute where they are disruptively incompetent for any reason, with mental illness simply not a special reason (and similarly for forms of neurodivergence I don't actually like to conflate with flat "mental illness", such as many forms of autism spectrum conditions). ] (]) 19:48, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:I just came across this and i would like to say excuse my language what the fuck is this behavior. The correlations in the talk page are absolutely ridiculous and are all blatant attacks. I’m ignoring if akechi is right or wrong that doesn’t matter(to me). These attacks are not only focused on akechi but all neurodivergent contributors to Misplaced Pages. It’s disheartening that this happens. What does schizophrenia have to do with a users ability to edit. This place is for everyone who wants to contribute (within policy of course). those who degrade users because of who they are, they are trying to push people who they deem not to be “normal”. The fucking disrespect makes my blood boil. As someone who made a mistake which was directly related to my mental problems. If i was attacked for That behavior you bet I wouldn’t have held back my anger as much as akechi did. As a neurodivergent person and one who takes care of other neurodivergents. These people are more than helpful to the Misplaced Pages they all have certain content hyperfixations planes, military, cars, racing, boats you name it. Everyone has a purpose here. Shame on those who think otherwise ]] 16:40, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Also if you would like @] please explain why you think schizophrenia prohibits users from being competent.<br>In my experience with a schizophrenic friend most of his schizophrenia is just seeing scary things. He is smart he does well in school. Tell me why he couldn’t contribute ]] 19:26, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			=== Block proposal - Jwa05002 ===
			{{atop|I have Indefinitely blocked Jwa05002 per consensus here. ]] 18:54, 15 January 2025 (UTC)}}
			I propose an indef block for Jwa05002 as consequence of their statements at ] where they wrote <blockquote>Agreed. @Akechi The Agent of Chaos self admittedly (in these discussions) suffers from schizophrenia. I have the deepest sympathy for anybody with mental health issues, but that doesn’t mean severely mentally ill people should be editing Misplaced Pages articles. It’s exactly as you stated, competence is required. But….i guess this is what Misplaced Pages has devolved into. It’s sad really"</blockquote> and then at ] where they just wrote <blockquote>I don’t. I stand by my statement that “severely mentally ill” people shouldn’t make edits to Misplaced Pages articles.
			Schizophrenia is a “severe mental illness” (don’t take my word for it, check out the Misplaced Pages article about it). That’s tragic and sad for sure, but still in my opinion, people suffering from that type of severe mental illness aren’t competent to edit Misplaced Pages articles.</blockquote>
			All of the ], bar one which was an edit they shouldn't have been making per ], are at ] and ] and it therefore appears that the editor is ]. '']''<sup>]</sup> 05:47, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Not sure if I can place any votes because of my involvement but @] has in my opinion been trying to scare some user away from comment on ], including me where they said (https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Killing_of_Jordan_Neely#c-Jwa05002-20250101224800-Akechi_The_Agent_Of_Chaos-20241230034200)
	Is it even possible (or withing precedence) that this thread be blanked? Perhaps some sort of message box that reads something like "This discussion has been courtesy blanked due to containing controversial information about a living person who does not have a WP article. In the case that an article is one day created that passes notability guidelines, this discussion can be reactivated following admin review."
			:"Based on this comment and many others I’ve seen you make here, you are far too personally biased (for whatever reason) to be making edits to this Misplaced Pages article. You are simply unable to be objective about it. Misplaced Pages should not exist as a forum for editors to grind their personal axes." in what could be seen as an attempt to scare me away from things. I don't know what Jwa was talking about because if you look at my comments on the talk page it was mostly trying to explain ] to people. The personal bias I can only assume was my disagreeing with them on the move request, as that is all I can think of. ] (]) 11:41, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support''' as mover. I think Jwa's comments speak for themselves. '']''<sup>]</sup> 11:55, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support''' if clue is not promptly obtained. That's not an acceptable statement to make against your fellow editors. --] 14:56, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support''' This is entirely inappropriate and disruptive comportment. ] (]) 15:44, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Strong Support''' per my comment above ]] 16:43, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support''' Jwa's statement is unconscionably biased against editors with psychiatric issues, and such discrimination should not be tolerated. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 19:09, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
	Anyway, I would support this and will step away to leave it to others to discuss, as I am feeling a bit icky about the whole thing. ] (]) 21:23, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
			*'''Support''' - ] is something that is, and should be, an immediate indefinite block ''at minimum''. ] is also something that is best responded to with a summary indef. I don't see any reason why Jwa is still unblocked while this ban discussion is ongoing. —] ] <sup><small>] ]</small></sup> 00:10, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
	::(sorry about the typos- it was a long post and I wanted to pound it in before an edit conflict occurred. ] (]) 21:25, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
			*'''Support''' - what ever happened to discussing ]? I'm with Jéské Couriano, why is Jwa still unblocked?--] 00:18, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
	:I just read this thread, and I'm trying to figure out what the hell is going on. Indeed, this whole thread is full of libelisms (including from respected editors). So the guy married or was accused of having sex with his daughter and wants to hide it? For some reason, someone is intent on it being out in the open? Why is it so important to everyone? What the living heck is going on here? Long time admins posting long creeds, a new user claiming to have been here for forever (always suspicious). Why is this so damned important? Half of this feels incredibly ]ed to me. Would someone clear the damned thing up? I have the same sinking feeling, Eskimo, like all of a sudden realizing half the things I read in the world have been changed thanks to someone's thought police (thanks Bsbsbs).] (]) 23:23, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
			*'''Strongly support''' - I'm still getting a weird feeling to the rest of the discussion unrelated to Jwa, but Jwa's interactions feel very clear cut, particularly considering they basically doubled down when they started discussing here at ANI. Feels like obvious grounds for a block and/or CBAN. - ] (]) 00:26, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
	::Okay, here's what happened:
			*'''Query''' is this proposing an ''indefinite block'' (as the section header says) or a '']'' (as the text says)? - ] <sub>]</sub> 01:14, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
	# I brought several problems with an article (see my original post in the top section,) to the ANI, and the article was subsequently deleted. ''Note that this is the second deletion.''
			*:Per ], {{tq|q=y|Editors who are indefinitely blocked by community consensus, or remain indefinitely blocked after due consideration by the community, are considered "banned by the Misplaced Pages community".}} So wouldn't it be "both"? ] (]) 01:21, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
	# One of those problems was an allegation by an editor at the Village Voice, who implied that the article was deleted ''the first time'' because the subject bullied Misplaced Pages. As far as I know, this is a complete fabrication by the editor. The real reason it was deleted the first time is because it was whitewashed and in terrible shape.
			*:@], I've updated the wording to specify an indef block. But as ER states above the result would be the same. '']''<sup>]</sup> 02:04, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
	# When it was deleted ''for a second time,'' (this time because the recreation was a blatant attack on the subject,) the same editor called me a minion.
	# Jimbo Wales got involved. <small>(This is a statement of fact, I don't think it is a bad thing or a good thing, just something that happened.)</small>
	# Reddit caught wind.
	# Because of point numbers 2 and 3, and aggravated by points 4 and 5, we have spent a large amount of time and effort talking about this topic. Little of it has anything to do with the original posting reasons, it is mainly focused on whether or not this person should have an article.
	# Other than the allegations of libel, which is still an issue, my origional points have been addressed. The socks were blocked and are now inactive, and the article is gone.
	# Also, this is ANI, so plenty of drama that may or may not be constructive.
			:'''Query''' Should we let Jwa know that there is a indef block proposal, like on his talk page, it seems we haven't given him any heads up and I think we probably should. ] (]) 09:34, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
	Hope this helps <span style="text-shadow:#2f4f4f 0.10em 0.10em 0.10em"><font color="black">]</font> <sub><span style="text-shadow:#ffd700 0.14em 0.14em 0.14em"><font color="black">]</font></sub></span> 00:20, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
			::I just left a message on his talk page just giving him a heads up. ] (]) 09:37, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::You already let them know they were being discussed here at the very start of this conversation. '']''<sup>]</sup> 09:41, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support''' unless they unequivocally recant this view, because at the end of the day competence is not decided just by what neurotype one is. I should note that if, as it currently seems, the user has left the project, this is going to be mostly an academic exercise.--] ] 10:39, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:Yeah I did notice they just stop responding to anything, it seems they had a mission and just decided nope out I guess. ] (]) 10:57, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
	===This guy really isn't encyclopedic===		==== Addition- policy revival and reform ====
			] is a proposal that failed in 2009 and I have seen too much of this happening which just goes underwhelmingly to Wp:personal attacks. But these aren’t personal only the discrimination against one person is discrimination against the users of Misplaced Pages who were basically attacked. I think its needed as the everyday change of politics in the us. The draft will be remade of course. This is just my test the waters on potential proposals which I would like to make. ]] 15:48, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
	I just did some basic research with an eye towards creating a decent article about the guy but didn't find anything that made him notable enough for his own article. In short, he is: a hotshot accountant and a self-proclaimed philanthropist with a taste for pretty girls and fast cars and the money to indulge himself in both. Married twice. Divorced once. Current wife is young enough to be his child.
			:] would be the place for future policy proposals, but we already have precedent with treating discriminatory speech (aka misgendering and racial slurs) as ]. Users have been blocked on that basis over the last few years, wouldn't hurt to codify it. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 17:42, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
	Rumor has it that she is, but that's ''rumor'' off of the ''gossip sites'' not facts from a reputable news source.
			::Yeah ]] 17:54, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::If you get the ball rolling at VPP I imagine you'd find a lot of people who would like to improve Misplaced Pages's systematic handling of discriminatory actions. ] (]) 17:58, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::I’ll start to draft a thing for village pump tonight thanks ]] 18:06, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::] Been working on this dis regard my horrible format its word vomit ]] 20:40, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:That is what made my blood boil with these interactions that they weren't just personal attacks but descrimination against a whole class of Misplaced Pages editors. I think policy here would be most welcome. Please ping me when you put up a proposal. '']''<sup>]</sup> 23:35, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::] Here ]] 16:40, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			===Talk page misuse (Jwa05002)===
	He may be a local celebrity but he hasn't done anything notable enough to merit an encyclopedia article.--] (]) 05:56, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
			{{atop|Talk-page access yanked by Moneytrees. ] (]) 05:29, 16 January 2025 (UTC)}}
			says it all. Talk page access needs to be yanked.
			It's sad though that they misread "<disorder> is characterized by <x, y, z, ...>" as "everyone with <disorder> has all of <x, y, z...> to the point that it makes them incompetent to edit". --] ] 04:59, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
	===Enough===
	This thread began with three issues raised, of which only the first has been addressed. It's becoming a messy DRV-lite. If anyone has anything to say about issues 2 and 3 (at very top of thread), fine - otherwise, let's drop this. A DRV can be opened if necessary for further discussion of whether there should be an article. ] <sup>]</sup> 08:28, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
			:@], please see above comment by Jasper. '']''<sup>]</sup> 05:18, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
	===Not encyclopedic?===
			::Oh brother…. ]] 05:22, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
			{{abot}}
			== Me (DragonofBatley) ==
	You’ve got to be kidding me. He’s not “encyclopedic?” Well, he’s definitely The better word would probably be “not notable.” I give him the benefit of the doubt and call (there is a disambig page for ] on Misplaced Pages.)
			It may seem odd but I'm going to appoint myself to here to save {{Ping|KJP1}} the trouble. It is suggested I be put under a restricted amount of editing for new articles and using Articles for Creation. I have agreed to do so but there is cause to refer it here. I have accepted the offers to fix my ways and work on it but it appears it needs an ANI report and involvement so I will do so now. The other editors can put their cases forward. I will only say to please look at the bad and the good edits I have made to the site and not just the negatives. ] (]) 22:39, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
	*“David Bruce McMahan” (in quotes…)
			:Notifying other editors from the wider discussions {{Ping|PamD}}, {{Ping|Noswall59}}, {{Ping|Rupples}}, {{Ping|Crouch, Swale}}, {{Ping|KeithD}}, {{Ping|SchroCat}}, {{Ping|Tryptofish}}, {{Ping|Cremastra}} and {{Ping|Voice of Clam}}. If I missed anyone else sorry ] (]) 22:45, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Non-archived discussion in DoB's talk page history that appears relevant: ]. ]&nbsp;] 22:49, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Before the other editors all pipe in. This is mostly in regards to my ability to edit an article, create notable places like in the cases of ], ], ] and now redirected ] and ]. I am actually trying to offer a solution to work with the editors by using Articles for Creation but to no avail. So ANI is now the new stop. ] (]) 22:50, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Yes and I made some questionable choices of responses for which I am taking back as both inappropriate and immature. I am on the spectrum and do sometimes have moments of taking things personally if i feel attacked or something similar. I regret those actions and offered a fresh start to wipe slate clean and better myself but it seems it was at least now pointless as KJP1 is insisting ANI get involved. I am actually a very professional person and willing to learn. I had a bad day and went to cool off. I came back after a short time and willing to work out my issues but again. It is not really worth trying to if ANI is the new way forward. ] (]) 22:54, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Also this discussion: ]. ] (]/]) 22:55, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Personally, my concern is not notability but verifiability. that the user is accepting feedback and willing to move on.
			:I do not think restricting DragonofBatley to AfC submissions is the best course of action here, since that places the burden on AfC reviewers. Rather, I think we should wait and see if problems persist. If DragonofBatley is willing to edit carefully and go with a fresh start, well and good. ] is how I first came into contact with this user: if new page reviewers flag problems, ''then'' we can be having this discussion again and consider sanctions or restrictions. As it stands, I'm willing to take the user's assurances that they'll be more careful, with the understanding that they have been warned and that further problems will be dealt with seriously without many further cautions.
			:I'd also like to personally recommend to DragonofBatley to ] and then move them to mainspace him/herself. I find this approach helps me clear my head and write the article in stages, rather than write it all at once in one edit – when I do the latter, I tend to leave loose ends.
			:Happy editing, <span style="font:14px Gill Sans;">'']'' (] — ])</span> 23:01, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::I'd really like to allow enough time for uninvolved editors to examine the issues and weigh in, before we rush to say let's step back and see if he continues to accept feedback. There are some strange issues around a comment about ban evasion – it's possible that there was simply a no-problem rename, followed by an ill-considered joke, but I think it requires some closer examination: . There's also a matter of whether a CCI needs to be initiated. Those are both potentially serious matters, that should not be dismissed out-of-hand. I take the point about not wanting to burden AfC reviewers, but that just shifts the burden to other editors, rather than making the problems go away, and I don't think we should have to be cleaning it up in mainspace. And there seem to be repeated, serious concerns about content that fails verification when sources are examined. --] (]) 23:11, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Hi Cremastra, thanks for your input. Ive actually wanted to begin by personally thanking you and PamD for being patient with me. I really do. I want to work to improve and will do. Unfortunately, a few feel ANI is the solution so I will have to leave it for the administrative ones to suggest the next steps. I will use my sandbox for any new articles and then use AfC or ping relevant editors to maybe input on my work? Before publishing ] (]) 23:12, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::@]: I appreciate that you are willing to work via drafts instead of publishing articles directly to mainspace. Would you be willing to agree to a voluntary editing restriction (which could be enforced by partial or site blocks) that requires you to submit all drafts to AfC for approval, up to a maximum of 5 drafts at a time? ] (]/]) 23:24, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::I can agree to that. Is it possible to make a list on my talk page of interests. I work in the sandbox and ask for input from editors. Can anyone see the sandbox? ] (]) 23:27, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::You may use your talk page for whatever you like. You can also create a subpage, such as ]. It seems like you have a large group of people who want to help you and who find value in your contributions here, and I'm sure some of them would be willing to continue to provide feedback to you. ] (]/]) 23:29, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I've reviewed the threads that Schazjmd and I shared. I think given Dragon's communication style, the block/ban thing was probably hyperbole. Regarding CCI, where were issues raised regarding copyright concerns in Dragon's edits? ] (]/]) 23:17, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Hi Tryptofish, I don't think we have engaged in a discussion but that name ban evasion was a bad joke. I'll be honest I got confused between a name change and role playing. It was in bad taste. I'm not evading any bans or topic bans. I made an ill informed sarcastic joke and role playing. I should not have and I have time and again apologised for that. It was a stupid thing to say and I being on the spectrum as I do not wish to disclose my condition even though I likely have. Do sometimes have silly moments. I have done my best to keep them.off Misplaced Pages. The repeat things will be no more. I'm willing to fully grasp my errors and be more efficient and open to discussion on articles for AfC and in my sandbox. I offered a clean slate to start again and I stepped off it. Then ANI could have been involved. But unfortunately it was insisted despite me offering to change. The joke was in bad taste and I'm not avoiding any bans. It was a bad joke I came up with while role playing. I hope we can put that to bed and start a new. ] (]) 23:18, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::It was and it was in bad taste. I changed my username and felt I had a new account forgetting it was a simple name change. I had an immature moment and I hope the administrative editors see I take it back and acknowledge it as inappropriate and childish on my part. I'm being an open book now. No gimmicks or pretend. I genuinely apologise. ] (]) 23:20, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::Given the DragonofBatley/RailwayJG account is nearly 5 years old the statute of limitations might well apply so I don't see a need to look too much into that especially given that while there have clearly been problems with this account I'm not aware of any other socks created after this account, that is to say I'm not aware DragonofBatley has been socking since creating this account. ''']''' (]) 23:23, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::There is no socking. The only time I may edit off my account is for minor corrections made to certain articles. I made one anon edit months ago to a page I believe it was Derbyshire or Yorkshire which mispelt I believe it was a church or a nearby settlement had a letter missing. But apart from that. This is my main account and I have no issues with editors making sure I am not causing a nuisance to articles not that I intend to do so. ] (]) 23:36, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::These are good points.
			:::However, I don't think you meant CCI, since as far as I can tell, copyright has not been a problem. I think a CCI''-like'' thing may be in order. ], anyone? <span style="font:14px Gill Sans;">'']'' (] — ])</span> 23:20, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::Likely, I do try at times to source text but of course ] is a big no no. So i am sometimes a bit concerned to quote full texts in fear of copyrighting or stealing a sentence/similar in writing. Would using ChatGPT be worth it to help avoid any similar problems in terms of copyright? Not for writing a paragraph or sourcing but to check for plagurising? ] (]) 23:24, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::ChatGPT cannot help you check for plagiarism. Given the concerns raised in this discussion and others, I recommend staying far away from ChatGPT or other LLMs for editing Misplaced Pages. ] (]/]) 23:26, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::Okay thats fine. Is there any website Misplaced Pages approve to check for plagiarism? I want to make sure i do not break ] and ]. ] (]) 23:28, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::When sourcing or quoting a source on an article I meant to add ] (]) 23:29, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::{{ec}} The reason I mentioned CCI is because multiple editors who have been closely involved in the edits said on KJP1's talk page (linked above) that some sort of CCI might be needed. I'm simply basing it on that. If they actually meant an informal CCI-like process for verifiability, then it's that. --] (]) 23:28, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::I think it's the latter. @]: Nobody is concerned about your violating copyright. Just don't copy things directly from sources or paraphrase things too closely and you'll be okay. ] (]/]) 23:30, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::Okay I will do my best. Ill try to write any notable text seperate from a source as best as I can. If the CCI issue is one of the ongoing problems. ] (]) 23:33, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*I made a number of suggestions about page creation restrictions in the discussion thread but as noted in reply their problems aren't limited to article creation (and I'd expect to see a shift to other problems with editing existing articles) and as noted above the AFC suggestion might overburden AFC. Maybe keeping the suggestion about only creating articles on civil parishes would be a good idea in other words going along with what Cremastra has suggested namely using userspace drafts instead of AFC or creating straight away. ''']''' (]) 23:09, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::Yeah, I agree to that. @] if you'd be willing to. I could work with you on your civil parishes list directly. Not to ] but if you feel say an article is likely notable for a page before I submit it to AfC? I will also help clean up categories. Is there just out of interest a reason why Category:Telford and Wrekin is not used for the civil parishes in its district? ] (]) 23:31, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::] is a district that contains many parishes which the category contains but its not its self a parish so shouldn't be in ]. If there are not enough notable topics within a parish to have say 5 or so articles then consider just putting the articles we do have on places in the parish in the district's category namely ]. ''']''' (]) 23:35, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::::Okay, I will do. So far we have I believe Dawley Hamlets, Great Dawley, Lawley and Overdale, Ketley, Oakengates, Wrockwardine, Wrockwardine Wood and Trench, Donnington, Madeley, Ironbridge Gorge and Wellington (which a few more articles could be added or made like for its church, notable suburbs etc) of course if they pass the AfC ] (]) 23:38, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:DragonofBatley, to me, the biggest concern is the repeated instances noted in those discussions where the text you added wasn't supported by the sources that you cited. That's a big deal. How do you plan to address that problem? ]&nbsp;] 23:36, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I mentioned above I will cite sources and aim to write ✍️ them without plagiarism happening. I'll make sure to.let other editors input before anything further happens with them. ] (]) 23:40, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::That doesn't address my question at all. Editors pointed out multiple instances where you wrote something then cited a source that didn't support what you wrote. How do you plan to address that problem? ]&nbsp;] 23:42, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Plagiarism is not the issue. Could you please explain where to find Misplaced Pages's verifiability policy and what it means to you? ] (]/]) 23:42, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::@]: while you're taking a breather as @] suggested, could you please write a response to my question and then post it here? ] (]/]) 23:49, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::], ], ] (Make sure it is.notable, not original research, if it can be included and it is.neutral/cited sources) to me means make sure it is inclusive and notable enough to be given an entry or seperate article. Like for example ] and ]. One is the capital and a county. The other is a county and old settlement. Both notable for their history, culture and landmarks. Not notable would be say an article for ] and the ]. Since neither are any different from one an other except suburbs. That's my best comparison for understanding the policy. ] (]) 23:52, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::Could you explain a bit more about what it means to verify information on Misplaced Pages? ] (]/]) 23:53, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::Sourcing from books, journals, newspapers/news, websites, maps etc are normally considered primary research. Secondary research means textbooks, other encyclopedia and analysis carried out by other websites/authors. So if I made an article for let us use an example here. Ercall near ]. I would of course make sure Infobox settlement is used for the box. Short description and main title. When it comes to sourcing. We would want history so I could use the ] commonly accepted for older settlements or an old Ordnance Survey National Map. Then when quoting events we want books or websites that mention these events or buildings. Then for administrative purposes a government or parish council website. When it comes to secondary sourcing. News articles notable events or transport. As well as textbooks that mention it or old poems, children books, folklore, songs notable etc could be secondary research and cited if they are correctly used. Sorry my fingers are hurting 😆 now typing on mobile. But then last ones are photos 📸 and maybe notable people or landmarks like churches manor houses town halls museums National sites or historic England offer a wide array of listed buildings and some backstop which could be used to further expand the inclusion of the article. That is the best I can offer for verify information on Misplaced Pages. I hope I have proved my best understandings ] (]) 00:04, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::Er, definitely don't use Domesday as your reference for anything on Misplaced Pages, that's quite solidly original research. Old poems etc are also not secondary research - that would still be primary research. Secondary research is stuff by academics and so on about the subject. -- ] (]) 00:19, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			*DragonofBatley has agreed to a ] to publish all drafts through AfC, up to five at a time, enforceable by partial or site blocks. Does that restriction resolve the concerns raised here and in other discussions? ] (]/]) 23:37, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:Maybe, but honestly, it's exhausting just keeping up with the rapidity and edit conflicts in this ANI thread. I suggest leaving it open long enough for a thoughtful examination, and I also suggest that DragonofBatley stop posting so many replies here for a while. I know it's stressful to have a complaint against oneself (even if self-initiated), but there needs to be breathing space for other editors to opine. --] (]) 23:43, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::I'm satisfied with the agreement. I'll also list on my talk page or username page. Potential articles for future reference and to see about creating. One more thing, the five at anytime. Is that a week or every fortnight? ] (]) 23:44, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::I think you misunderstood my proposal. The restriction is that you cannot have more than five active submissions at AfC at any given point in time. Once you have five drafts pending review, you would not be allowed to submit a new one until one of the five is reviewed or withdrawn. ] (]/]) 23:48, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::As noted above there are concerns that AFC is overburdened and might not catch the problems mentioned and some of the problems with DragonofBatley's contributions are not article creation but I think it would be worth giving it a try and see how it works. If there are further problems we can consider a different restriction. ''']''' (]) 23:49, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::::The overburdening of AFC is why I added the five or less restriction. ] (]/]) 23:50, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::::Are there issues of failed verification in content added to existing pages? Might the AfC number of five be too high? --] (]) 23:53, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::::::It strikes me as low, given that the only other editor of whom I'm aware of with a similar restriction is capped at 20. -- ] (]) 00:06, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::::{{outdent|0}} Most of the concerns raised in the discussions seem to be related to articles created by Dragon, rather than additions to existing articles, but I think the editors familiar with Dragon will clarify if that's wrong. I'm open to lowering the number. ] (]/]) 23:57, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::::::Many of the editors who have been involved in the prior discussions have not yet had an opportunity to respond here. Let's give it sufficient time. --] (]) 00:00, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::::Okay. I did answer your question on the policy. I hope it gives some understanding of my knowledge. If i need more researching into it. I will ] (]) 23:54, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::::I asked a second question. Could you please answer that one as well? ] (]/]) 23:58, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
			*@]: Are you willing to accept the proposal that you only be allowed to publish articles through AFC and that you can only have five active AFC nominations at any given time, and that if you violate either of those two restrictions, you may be blocked? ] (]/]) 04:56, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::Yeah, I agree to this. I have already completed one article for AfC for ]. Hopefully this proves I am willing to accept using AfC and submitted one at any given time. ] (]) 05:11, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			* I’ve looked at a number of articles created by Dragon and they fail even the most basic sourcing requirements or standards. Unreliable sources and fabricated information from sources are the main issue there, and I don’t want to see '''any''' new articles being created until the 400+ old ones have been cleaned up. I would like to see a complete ban on creating any new articles, whether in user space, main space or at drafts until it can be proven that Dragon has the basic competence required to source properly - and the best place for that is cleaning up some of the crap he’s already produced. We have a good pathway of restricting the activity of editors guilty of serial copyright infringements, and this is a very similar set of problems that should face the same pathway of editing restrictions and activity management before we put too much of a burden on AfC or have too much other dross added to main space. - ] (]) 05:10, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:This seems like a much better solution than mine, if there are editors willing to guide Dragon through that process. ] (]/]) 05:13, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::{{ec}} {{u|KJP1}} has made an offer on the talk page about a way forward, but I’ll let them repeat and clarify here here. - ] (]) 05:24, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::I do not see any Serial Copyright Infringements on my articles nor do I practice such things. I will not bombard replies but all I will say is maybe check out my new article created through AfC and see that I actually rushed nothing and sourced properly. Here you ]. I will go back to my as you call them "crap" articles and fix what I can fix in due time. ] (]) 05:14, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::Dragon, SchroCat is saying that we should create a process for you to fix the ]erifiability issues in your articles with guidance from experienced editors before you continue to create new ones. Would you agree to do that? ] (]/]) 05:16, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::{{ec}} Do you actually properly read what people write, or do you only hit on specific words and base a response on that? If the latter, it would explain why much of your output is so wildly at odds with the source material. You need to re-read my comment again properly and look at where you think I have accused you of being a serial copyright infringer, because I haven’t. - ] (]) 05:22, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::::I agreed to a lot of other things haven't I?. If they want to (editors) bring to my talk page any articles needing possible addressing and offer to help. I am happy with that but I would still like to be able to create new articles with AfC while doing so. I made one as I already linked and it is well edited. A bit of additions and fixes but otherwise good. I can but if I could ask for a sub section for any articles needing immediate addressing as multiple headings each time make my talk page over encumbered to work down and with. ] (]) 05:21, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::::I'm not sure that you abrogating your responsibility by saying that "If they want to (editors) bring to my talk page any articles needing possible addressing and offer to help". you need to be much more proactive in the process both to save the work of others in clearing up problems you have created, and to prove that you do have the competence required to continue editing here. For a start I would want to see no new articles from you, nor any new content created until the 400+ articles you have created have all been vetted and fixed (fixed by you and confirmed as vetted by someone other than you). (This 400+ is not all the articles: it's just the ones you created from scratch and doesn't include those you turned from redirect to article: I will guarantee that almost all of those will have major sourcing concerns, based on the sample of ten articles of yours I've looked at recently). {{u|KJP1}} provided a for you to follow in clearing up your mess; the only change I would make from that is to remove the ability for you to work on any other articles except ones you have already created or expanded. - ] (]) 13:49, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::::::Although I agree, I'm really concerned that not a single response by DragonofBatley indicates that they ''understand'' source/text integrity. Their answers to direct questions on this issue consistently deflect to other issues. If they don't understand the verifiability problems with their articles, they can't fix them. ]&nbsp;] 13:57, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::::::::That's why I would like to see them working on fixing a few of their articles: it will show whether they understand the requirements ''and'' that they have the ability/competence to fix it properly. - ] (]) 14:15, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::::::::That's a great point, you're right, @]. ]&nbsp;] 14:32, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::::::::I responded to @] earlier questions and was told to avoid replying too much to avoid encumbering replies. I got asked questions and made use of articles I am familiar with and explained to the best of my abilities. I have answered what I can and if I haven't done enough. I do not know what more I can answer. Not because of my lack of acknowledging of errors or sourcing but every word of the guidelines in one. I answered what I am aware and familiar with ] ] and ]. Also conflict edit was not directed at @], there was another editor somewhere bringing up an accusation i was causing CCI issues. ] (]) 21:18, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::I worry about AfC. Yes, Dragon's ] was approved by an AfC reviewer ... who themself copied in, unacknowledged, text from ] and failed to make the references work. They also removed the wrong one of two "References" sections, leaving Refs after Ext links, and put the church into the wrong category (Grade II listed churches.., instead of grade II* ...). Yes, I know those of us who don't offer to take on the work of AfC should be careful about criticising those who do, but this is a bit disappointing.
			*:::And also includes linked centuries, an Easter Egg link in the "See also", and some pretty clunky prose, before we get on to any issues of verifiability. ]] 09:24, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{outdent}}
			The issues are ] and source integrity; ]; and the suggestion of ] while under a block/ban. My apologies that my reference to "somewhere similar" to CCI muddied the waters. AGF'ing that the two instances where DragonofBatley said they were operating under a ban were "jokes/roleplaying", that leaves Notability and Verifiability. The first's more of a judgement call. Some editors, I'm one, may think that readers would be better served if the articles DragonofBatley has created on sub-parish units, wards/suburbs/business parks etc., were merged into "parent" articles but others may see value in them and they may pass GNG. Which leaves Verifiability.
			Multiple editors have identified multiple instances where the sources DragonofBatley used did not/do not support the content they have written. I can provide diffs but I think everyone commenting has seen the examples given on DragonofBatley's Talkpage. Three more can be seen here, ], which they created via AfC this morning. What we haven't seen is an explanation from DragonofBatley as to how these errors occurred. Even if there was no intent to damage the 'pedia's credibility, such carelessness raises ] issues. For me, it demonstrates they cannot create appropriate articles without support. I think that point is accepted by most/all commenting here, including DragonofBatley. I would therefore support a requirement that, for a period, all future articles they want to create must go through AfC. I'd also support a limitation on numbers, to assist colleagues reviewing at AfC.
	*The Securites and Exchange Commission finds him highly notable. (I’m jealous, I have none.) You need to be a higher achiever than just an ] to get on EDGAR 67 times.
			That leaves the 400+ articles they have created to date. I am 100% certain some will contain sourcing errors. I have already found three that do in a spot check. My own view is that resolving these existing errors, for the benefit of readers and for our own credibility, should take precedence over DragonofBatley's desire to create new articles. I think this process should involve him - as a demonstration of commitment and as a learning opportunity. I am willing to help him in this and I'm confident we can work out a process. How all of that could be simply expressed in an ANI decision, I'm less sure. Sincere apologies for the length of this response. ] (]) 13:21, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
	*If he’s not “encyclopedic” – why then, pray tell, is his ] “encyclopedic?” It’s a completely unreferenced (and currently semi-protected) puff-piece that was written by the same ] who, quite coincidentally also penned ] (which reads like a mirror of ,) and who otherwise did nothing to WP, except for one minor edit for ?
			:At this point in the discussion, I find myself sharing the concern already expressed by SchroCat above, that DragonofBatley is giving answers here that do not give confidence that he really understands the issues. This makes me very reluctant to agree to further article creation in mainspace, or to submission through the AfC process (because that would just transfer the burden to AfC reviewers). I like the idea of him having to, first, demonstrate that he can fix existing problems in content he already created. I'm leaning towards putting him under a complete ban against new page creation, until after he demonstrates competence in those fixes. I could also support having an experienced editor (not me!) act as a formal mentor, who would review and pre-approve his article creation, instead of AfC. --] (]) 14:41, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
	*Why is ] “encyclopedic?” if the owner isn’t?
			This issue began with erroneous citations being used to support content in Dragon’s articles. Despite being asked here and elsewhere, I’m not seeing where Dragon has even acknowledged, yet alone explained this. Either Dragon doesn’t comprehend - a competence issue - or is being evasive. Dragon’s response appears to shift responsibility to other editors to find and fix existing problems and only once notified will Dragon get involved. Not good enough. Dragon should be proactive and help set a schedule to voluntarily self-review and fix. Sadly, Dragon’s replies don’t inspire confidence. Goodwill and trust needs to be rebuilt and demonstrated in a practical manner. I’d support a restriction on article creation for a minimum of three months, while problems with their existing articles are resolved. At the end of this period Dragon can appeal and hopefully resume article creation under supervision of an experienced editor, who would review before publication. If all goes well, Dragon can eventually regain the right to article creation without oversight, but at present this seems some way off. Don’t see the need for any restriction on Dragon’s general editing at this juncture. ] (]) 20:57, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::I'm sorry if i cannot inspire confidence. Im on ] quite severly so confidence is not something i can write up to inspire trust. I have apologised enough and it seems it is all falling on ]. I have agreed to listen and work but is anyone actually noting that? Or is there some ] feelings from editors. Maybe burnout or tiredness? I cannot comprehend emotions or feelings of others on the otherside of a monitor. ] (]) 21:21, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
	“Not notable” is highly ambiguous and subjective. What’s notable to some is highly boring to others. This must be the first case that someone claims he is “not notable” to make an (not congratulatory) article go away. It’s that same person that finds other facets of his life highly notable and newsworthy. Alleged lack of notability also serves as a highly effective WMD on WP. You don't like an article? Call it "not notable". I'm sure there will be some who share your dislike. If all else fails, make them up.
			::::And without being a douche. Maybe some editors need to educate themselves in ], ] and ]. These are what i suffer from and maybe some will see that I am actually not meaning to be an issue or a parasite. Im meaning to contribute but i feel these three articles best explain my maybe odd behaviours and slight issues with writing at times. ] (]) 21:26, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::@]. Allow me to present and expand upon my previous comment with an analogy. Suppose someone with a disability volunteered and was accepted to work in a charity (thrift) shop. This person was interviewed and thought capable of operating the cash till and servicing customers. It transpired however that the volunteer was making mistakes by not giving the correct change and was upsetting customers due to their disability. The charity being a caring organisation didn’t want to dismiss the volunteer, but in the meantime had to take steps to protect its interests. An alternative position was found for the volunteer in the less customer facing role of receiving donations and organising stock. At the same time help and support was given to the volunteer, with a view of a possible return to their previous role, should capability problems be overcome. It may not come across to you this way, but all the editors here are of the caring sort and are taking into account your disability/limitations (if I can put it that way) but the immediate priority must be to protect the project from further harm and put right existing issues. ] (]) 23:01, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::@], the editors responding here value your ability to find notable topics and start articles about them. We are tryig to find a way to accommodate your disabilities while making sure that other editors don't need to spend too much time fixing mistakes that you make. ] (]/]) 23:20, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::Dragon has created articles on notable topics that are valued and I'm not suggesting otherwise. Infact, the opposite. I welcome the opportunity to expand some of Dragon's creations and have done so, including a couple that have come up at AfD. Rereading my analogy, it comes across as not altogether appropriate, but Dragon replied to my previous comment with what I interpreted as an announcement of disability issues much more severe than I realised plus a "you don't understand or care or are listening", but maybe I've got that wrong. Anyway, I've put forward my view and will leave it there. ] (]) 00:27, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::I appreciate that, I am just trying to understand not with yourself @] or @]. You two have been very patient and understanding. I was more trying to engage a reply with @] and @]'s earlier remarks above. But there seems to be an issue with building reply after reply so I am hoping now they can see the section around here and on my user page. I do not like to announce disabilites but I want to put them forward to hopefully engage some understanding that some of the edits or replies I have made are not out of spite or trolling. Just sometimes it can be hard and I try to open up where appropriate. Now is the best time as I am getting a lot of things to read and feel Voorts solution was enough to agree to. Also I am not looking to fall out with editors or make a war and peace. Just asking for some understanding aside from addressing other issues too. That is all. ] (]) 00:34, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			I have been tagged above and intend to write a response. This thread was started at night where I live and I am travelling today and tomorrow for work, so have had very little time to consider a response. Do not feel obliged to keep this open for me - my thoughts are largely present at KPJ1's talkpage discussion; I will probably add concerns around understanding what a reliable source is in addition to the ] and ] concerns already raised. If this discussion is still open tomorrow evening, I will try to find the time to respond properly. Thanks, —] (]) 22:10, 14 January 2025 (UTC).
			:As stated above, my thoughts are present at KJP1’s talk page. In sum, I have seen three discernible issues: (1) content quality issues; (2) civility and general conduct; and (3) potential sock-puppetry. I will leave out (3) as others seem content to discount that and I note he has repeatedly denied evading a ban.
	Before I went to “the dark side” of corporate propaganda (the money made me do it), I used to be an investigative journalist. In my professional opinion, Bruce McMahan is extremely notable and newsworthy, and I applaud the journalist who went to the trouble of sifting through dusty court records.
			:There is emerging consensus here that there have been multiple and repeated issues with Dragon’s lack of adherence to core policies including verifiability. I would take this a step further. Misplaced Pages exists to be the sum of knowledge, by which we mean its sole purpose is to accurately summarise reliable (secondary) sources whatever and wherever they are about, dispassionately: we let the sources do the work for us. This protects us, it gives us integrity and it defines our purpose and scope. Policies like V, N, OR, SIGCOV and RS all stem from that basic maxim and implement it in practice: if there’s no good sources, we can’t write about it; if we don’t cite our sources, we’re useless; if the sources are not good then we can’t be trusted either; if we’re adding our research, we’re not summing knowledge, we’re making it. Dragon’s issues with verifiability are to me a symptom of a wider problem he has when it comes to understanding what this project is, what a reliable source is and how to use it to write an article. In my view, his articles exhibit issues with not just verifiability but all of those other policies I’ve mentioned. Not all the articles, to be clear - he’s added useful content too and I recognise that - but certainly even those good things can often be caveated by issues with prose, sourcing or verifiability. The answers he has given above suggest to me that he still has only a partial understanding of the core maxim and the policies mentioned above. I think this then combines with what Yngvadottir calls issues with reading comprehension, and the carelessness and hasty edits Pam and others have documented. It’s a bad mix replicated over many hundreds of articles. This is not just a few instances and nor is it new: these concerns have been raised on his talk page and elsewhere dozens and dozens of times, and I imagine more issues are out there. It won’t change unless Dragon can grasp what this project is and how editing should be done.
	I recommend to be careful with the word "libel" or "libelous". Be careful accusing others of potentially criminal acts.
			:Additionally, though of secondary importance, Dragon has often tended to respond badly to criticism or challenges. He has a sharp temper and has a tendency to take offence lightly and to perceive editors as ganging up on him, trying to silence him or persecute him. Some of his edits to his userpage have been particularly inappropriate, including one where he incited violence. I think his combative approach to challenge has not helped him to deal with the issues above.
	Speaking of libel, truth is an absolute defense against libel accusations. If you have court documents (as the Voice does) to back up your claims. you are pretty much libel-proof. What's more, a "person of public interest" (and McMahan should qualify) has a higher threshold of libel. He or she must prove malice, which most often is an insurmountable burden. As the WP is not in possession of the documents, I can understand that the WP is less enthusiastic than the Voice. However, the proper amount of "according to" and "it is alleged" would solve that matter.
			:For all these reasons, I would have been minded to call for an indef block had Dragon not cooled down and shown what I believe is a genuine desire to improve. In recent days, he has taken a more measured tone, slowed down his edits and agreed to go through AfC. He has engaged mostly constructively here. I am mindful that he has created notable content, edits in good faith, and claims to have a number of cognitive disorders which may explain some of his behaviour. I am mindful that this has probably been a very draining and difficult period for him; we are all human. So my view is that he needs to work with others to clean up his existing contributions, understand what WP is and our core policies, slow down, check his work, use sandboxes, drafts and AfC for new content and only create new content that has been approved by others. There ought to be a time limit on this. I would suggest that breaching these requirements in the meantime be sanctionable by a block. At the end of this time, if Dragon can demonstrate competence, then that’s great. However, <b>this needs to be a final warning</b> in my view: further sustained and pervasive issues with core content policies or civility should result in either topic bans or, regrettably but I think most appropriately, an indef. I don’t want to see it get there - I know this is important to him. But we need to protect this project at the end of the day. Thanks, -] (]) 00:34, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
	A lot here may be clouded by bias against the Village Voice. In my likewise professional opinion, the Village Voice is a first-class paper. It earned its reputation amongst investigative journalists (a dying breed.) It has several Pulitzers to show, along with other awards. Sure, most people have a love it or hate it relationship with the Village Voice – investigative journalism by nature polarizes. I don’t share their political leanings, but I tip my hat to them. Lately, the Voice has been affected by the same problems that affect most publications that are printed on dead forests: Lack of readership and budget. The Wall Street Journal also isn’t what it used to be. Formerly voluptuous magazines look downright anorexic. Lazy (or call that overworked) journalism is quite the norm these days. If – in this day and age - someone takes the time and the trouble to thoroughly follow-up on a story, this person has my complete respect. Especially when under fire from lawyers. The Voice deserves another award, they don’t deserve to be called “hacks” or be marginalized as “bloggers.” - That reminds me: I blog every day. For money. It’s accepted as serious journalism. Should I be offended? The "hack" and "blogger" exchange (and the minions response) didn’t help the matter.
			::Do you have thoughts on the proposal below? ] (]/]) 02:40, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I've added my thoughts below -- I'm broadly supportive of it. —] (]) 10:28, 16 January 2025 (UTC).
			(I wasn't pinged here, but I had been at ].) DragonofBatley has been at this noticeboard before, in a section they started in May 2023, ]. {{U|PamD}} stated there that they became aware of DragonofBatley's edits in 2021 and had since been checking and fixing them and trying to advise DragonofBatley. It emerged that others had been trying to advise and assist them, in particular {{U|Crouch, Swale}}. There was further discussion at their talk page (including overly verbose advice from me, I was trying to be clear) and the editor mulling whether to leave. (). I gather that they did not leave, but that their editing has continued to be poor and the number of editors noticing this, trying to help, and discussing the problem has increased further. It pains me to say so, but I think at this point ] has to be seriously considered. DragonofBatley's editing presents a number of problems that are taking up a lot of editorial time to fix resulting damage to the encyclopaedia. (Points that follow in descending order of importance to me.)
	I am not related in any way with McMahan (had never heard of him or his hobbies), or Ortega, or the Voice. I have no moral outrage issues with either of them. But the matter has piqued my professional interest. The article and the talk pages are gone. Even some of the AFD discussions are gone (although accessible with a little digging).
			* Poor understanding of sources leading to inaccuracy. An example from PamD on their user talk recently: '] is on my watchlist so recent edits brought it back to my mind. Looking at the article history reminds me of a major problem with : he wrote "At one point, it was one of the most expensive places to live in the West Midlands between 1841 and 1871 due to housing stocks increasing by up to 87%." From the same source I changed this to "The number of houses in the Woods Bank area increased by up to 87% between 1841 and 1871, and a sanitary report of 1875 describes a dwelling there as of one lower and one upper room, with no ventilation or back door. The area was described as "a distinct location of poor ironworkers".' Their problem responding to the questions about sourcing earlier may be related; DragonofBatley appears to have problems with reading comprehension. That's a serious competency issue for what we do here.
			* Poor understanding of what's significant. PamD notes ill-judged removal of referenced content calling it "irrelevant". At ], PamD also notes: 'A sad thing is that sometimes there's actually a source there which does have some interesting information about the place, but it's ignored and the source is just used a evidence of the existence of the place. The article ], , cited an 1840 book apparently to support the NHLE listing, while the book actually included a fascinating story, supported by other sources, about "The Gad Whip", which I then added.' I disagree with PamD that that's a recent development, although they've got better at finding such sources. DragonofBatley writes about churches that are listed buildings without focussing on their architecture. In their most recent creation, ], the entire Architecture section was . However, their church articles always contain something like {{tq|The church serves as a local landmark and place of worship and community gatherings.}} sourced to ''achurchnearyou.com'', often as a separate "Present day" section. of ] (which appears to be their first church article, from December 2020, after some 50 previous article creations mainly on stations) had this as its entire prose: {{tq|All Saints Church is an active Parish Church in the town of Batley, Kirklees, West Yorkshire, England. Built in 1485 and been an active place of worship for Christians since before 1086. The church is located on Stocks Lane. Near to the town centre, the church is the main parish church of the town and local suburbs.}} (And the infobox called this 15th-century church, restored in the 19th century, "Gothic revival"). (I spent quite a bit of time in 2023 fixing up some of these articles, including clearly distinguishing ] and ], both ineptly created by DragonofBatley.)
			* Very slow to learn. I don't know how many times editors, not just PamD, told DragonofBatley that just reversing the order of "km" and "mi" in the convert template, as , was a fasification, not a correction, and drew their attention to the parameter for flipping the order. (That instance was linked at the earlier AN/I, by someone who was not PamD.)
			* Tends to be careless: they have a history of unintentional red links and other errors that should have been caught on preview. I have the impression they are still overreliant on others fixing their articles.
			There are also attitudinal problems; they react badly to criticism (I note {{U|Liz}} has given them a bit of advice on their talk page arising from this AN/I), and this preemptive self-report, and its wording, is not exemplary conduct. Being on the spectrum is something shared by many Misplaced Pages editors, and I've risen to the defence of several, but it's not a universal protective shield. I see improvement since 2023, and if it were just that they want to write articles about electoral wards and parish councils, a restriction to use AfC would deal with that poor judgement about notability. But the problems with DragonofBatley's edits go beyond notability and beyond their article creation and informal mentorship and personal commitments and promised self-restrictions have been tried before, to little or no avail. When all's said and done, I don't think someone who after 4 years misunderstands written sources as badly as in that ] instance (at the end of , which was made as in November 2024) should be editing Misplaced Pages at all. Many editors have been understanding and constructive and helpful, but enough's enough, in my view. ] (]) 01:48, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:I disagree about the self-report; it shows at best strong integrity and honesty and at the unlikely very worst a self-interested desire to get the first word in. <span style="font:14px Gill Sans;">'']'' (] — ])</span> 01:52, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
	The AFD cases strike me as a bit strange. One , followed by and then suddenly, one followed by a speedy.
			:All of the editors who you've quoted in support of your argument for an indef have been actively supportive of giving DoB another chance in this very thread or in the recent threads that were linked to at the beginning of this discussion. ] (]/]) 02:11, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:I'd like to point to ]: "On Misplaced Pages, the zeroth law is that good editors are the most valuable resource. Some would say the articles – but it takes good editors to write articles." Even more valuable when the editor in question is prolific at creating content. ] (]) 18:11, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Sadly, prolific creation of content is valuable if, and only if, it is good content. It is not valuable if it is incorrect because the editor has misunderstood sources, and is less valuable if it is poorly sourced because the sources shown do not support the material in the article, or is so clumsily written so that other editors feel they need to spend time cleaning it up (eg a red link for a UK parliament constituency, because the disambiguator was typed wrongly).
			::I've been slow to contribute to this debate, although I contributed at length in the recent discussions at ] and ], and have had a lot of previous interactions with Dragon which led to, I think, my only appearance at ANI: ].
			::I find it difficult to see the way forward. Dragon enjoys editing. He edits prolifically, and with good intent. He likes creating new articles, although I disagree with him over the notability of some of his topics, where he wants to create articles on ill-defined "suburbs" or on local authority electoral wards, where there is very little which can be usefully and interestingly said and well sourced, or on the "built up areas" which are used for government purposes but are otherwise pretty meaningless. (Minor disused UK railway stations are a different issue: I think there's a consensus that adequate sources probably exist, but if he can't actually find good sources to cite he should perhaps hold off and leave them to someone who has a shelf-full of printed books to use to source the articles). I would not want us to deprive him unnecessarily of the joy of editing.
			::Not all his controversial edits are in the creation of new articles: he has added multi-image "collages" in infoboxes of many articles where other editors have not always agreed with his choice, or number, of images; he removes "subjective" terms like "large" or "small" from leads (although the FA for ], which is also the example of a lead in ], starts "Chew Stoke is a small village ...": Dragon can't have spotted that one); he removes unsourced text which has been in place for many years, rather than tagging it as {{tl|cn}} (I know, opinions on that one differ). And there has been a lot of carelessness, a lot of failure to heed advice.
			::Perhaps the disabilities Dragon has recently mentioned contribute to a failure to learn or understand, in which case we sadly need to consider whether he is able to contribute as a net positive to the encyclopedia. A couple of recent instances look as if he has read a few words and made assumptions - a church as "not relevant" to a village because it was built elsewhere before being rebuilt in the village, and an 87% increase in housing stock as making a place "one of the most expensive places to live in the West Midlands" rather than as an area of overcrowding and squalor.
			::The idea of looking at his previous article creations and checking their sourcing and notability seems reasonable. Many of those articles will already have been cleaned up and further developed by other editors, to a greater or lesser extent. I and other editors spent time yesterday fixing and upgrading his latest creation, ] (which had the added complication of a careless AfC reviewer who created broken refs while adding unacknowledged copied material).
			::It's tempting to go for the simple option and say that Dragon has been given enough chances, has demonstrated ongoing failure to learn and take advice, and should be blocked to protect the encyclopedia. But I hope we can come up with a different outcome which will allow him to continue editing while learning how to do things better and, above all, to check and double-check all his work, as he has promised to do in the past. (Are all my references good and informative refs, with as specific a link as possible, to sources which actually support the text I have written? Do all the links go to articles not dab pages? Are there any unexpected red links which should be blue? Have I remembered not to link years or centuries? Have all my sentences got a verb? etc) I'm not sure that the standard AfC process is careful enough to catch all the problems which can occur in Dragon's article creations.
			::Sorry for the wall of text. I'm not sure how we should go forward, but am glad to see a wider discussion of this editor's contributions. ]] 22:21, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I think that's a very thoughtful analysis. And I think we are approaching a consensus against a total ban/block. But I also think it helps move us to a good outcome for me to argue against placing so much emphasis on not "depriv him unnecessarily of the joy of editing", insofar as we need to consider the point at which he stops being "able to contribute as a net positive to the encyclopedia." So I think that if we firm up the details of the editing restriction proposal below, that will be the right way to go. --] (]) 22:52, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			=== Draft proposed editing restriction/cleanup work ===
	It is a little disconcerting to note that several attempts have now been made to quash this discussion also.
			I think there's some consensus here that some sort of editing restriction is needed. (I never logged the AFC editing restrictions that I proposed and I don't think that there's consensus that those are adequate anyways.) In particular, it seems that editors feel that DoB should be required to review his old contributions under the guidance of experienced editors and show a better grasp of WP:V and WP:RS before returning to article creation. If some of the editors who have worked with DoB are willing to structure such a cleanup project and work with DoB on it, I propose formalizing the editing restriction, appealable in six months. ] (]/]) 01:09, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:I've got some experience of ] investigations, so I'd suggest we treat it something like that - recognising that the focus isn't plagiarism, but sourcing. I can set up a table of the that need reviewing in a sandbox , with some Decisions/Actions columns - OK / Revise and Keep / Merge / Second Opinion / AfD / etc. Then DragonofBatley and I can agree a process to work through them, hopefully with some help from other interested editors. Given the number, I think reviewing them all within six months is achievable. That would then give DragonofBatley demonstrable evidence of improvement on which they could base an appeal for a lifting of restrictions on new article creation. ] (]) 06:48, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
	Speaking of DRV-Lite, I’d like to look a bit more into the matter. I would especially like to form an opinion whether there was puppetry involved in the 3rd AFD, or if the article had been sufficiently neutered by a whole Sesame Street of puppets to be worthy of a sudden strong “Delete” vote by totally uninvolved editors.
			::I am an interested editor. <span style="font:14px Gill Sans;">'']'' (] — ])</span> 13:33, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I was thinking of proposing something very similar, and I'm glad that voorts thought of it before I got here. I'm the wrong person to be supervising the cleanup, but editors above would have my support. If we were to finalize a formal restriction, it should include a ban on new articles except in userspace or draft space, one or more supervising editors identified by name while cleanup of old contributions is ongoing, and no lifting of the ban without a consensus to do so at AN or ANI. I'd happily support that. --] (]) 19:00, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::I suggest that any restriction on creating new articles should also include converting redirects to articles. ]] 21:09, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::In addition, there should probably be an element of last-chance/] in this, in that a failure to make progress would lead to consideration of a site ban. --] (]) 22:54, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::I would agree with this: a structured clean-up approach which also supports Dragon and allows him to demonstrate an improved understanding of our core policies + the formal editing restrictions proposed. I do edit in these areas and would be happy to help from time to time, but I simply don't have the capacity due to IRL things for me to make a formal commitment to this cleanup work (as my slow response time here demonstrates). I agree with Tryptofish's last comment: this has to be a last chance now: failure to make progress should probably lead to a site ban. Thanks, —] (]) 10:27, 16 January 2025 (UTC).
			::::::::To be honest. I'm gonna just maintain a small commitment now. I have made a subsection on my page which @] has pointed out a couple of not needing an article. I will consider them as not something to focus on and maybe revisit them at a later time to consider. If it's a last chance, it's something I'm gonna have to downgrade. I'll just stick to my own page and sandbox. If I remove redirects I'll see if theres enough for an article for AfC or I'll send it as seperate and if accepted on good grounds. The redirect can be then merged to that article. Of course I'll not remove it but please do note. I am going to be taking a long term occasional editing spree. I've made some to a few AfD and CN. But I have to be honest lost my motivation to continue editing. I appreciate the options and proposals offered but if I'm going to end up likely getting site banned. It's just not worth me being too involved if i am close to basically having my enjoyment halted with one misstep not intentionally caused but is and I'm then blocked because of it. I'm 😕 sorry but that is just how i feel. Ill just stay on a down low and sometime submit an article to AfC. Ill work on a new one and some old ones this week and then ill be downgrading completely my contributions going forward. ] (]) 16:44, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::::Not saying I'm quitting or going under the radar but the amount of disruption I'm causing and the amount of differing opinions proves I'm fairly unpopular amongst editors and if i am nuisance. Ill stick to downlow edits and articles still being passed as agreed. I wanted to contribute I really do but if my disabilites are an obstacle which should be worded carefully per the ]. If a site ban is lingering over me. You got to understand it from my perspective and how i conceive it as a threat and a flatline of my entire editing time on here. Even with just cause reasons. ] (]) 16:49, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::::I don't think there's an option on the table for you to continue putting anything through AFC or creating any more articles at all (even changing from a redirect to a full article) without first spending time tidying up the mess of your earlier works. I think you need to understand that people are not sure whether you can be trusted to write anything within the confines of the requirements of sourcing. You need to be able to prove that on your earlier work before you work on anything else. - ] (]) 16:55, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::::::Alright, not here per say but on my talk page. Please because I don't know how to find it. Could I get a link to all my articles (Every single one of them I believe were in a big table listed), Then I can go through each one and work on the ones needing attention? I am not sure how to find them without going back through my contributions history which will take forever to do. Thanks ] (]) 17:24, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::::About 9 posts above this, in KJP1's post, there's a link to "400-odd articles". Is that what you're looking for? ]] 17:54, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::::::::Yeah thats the one ill have a look up there ] (]) 19:16, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{outdent}}
			{{U|voorts}} - Is it possible to close this one up? There's been a full airing of views, there looks to be a discernible consensus, and there's a fair amount of remedial work needed. It would be good to wrap it up with a decision so that work could begin. Many thanks. ] (]) 21:22, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Me replying, even though you didn't ask me. I think we need to get this into the form of an actual proposal, with actual language, because it will have to be logged. I'll offer to write it, but I'd first like to get some clarity as to which editor(s) are offering to be responsible for the mentor/reviewer role. (Or maybe I'll just draft those editors who were the most reluctant to sanction. ''Sound of evil laughter.'') --] (]) 23:19, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			:How's this draft proposal: {{noping2|DragonofBatley}} is indefinitely restricted from publishing new articles to mainspace<ins>, converting redirects to articles,</ins> or submitting drafts to AfC. This restriction is appealable in six months only if DragonofBatley participates in a cleanup project of articles that he has created, to be coordinated by {{noping2|KJP1}} and {{noping2|Cremastra}}. ] (]/]) 00:25, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Needs to explicitly include creation of new articles which replace existing redirects.
			::Having seen on ] yesterday (removed the "See also" which was the only link to the nearby and eponymous grade I listed church; replaced sensible coords with overprecise ones; added a second "References" heading; left a category lacking a closing bracket) I'm pessimistic about his promises of future careful editing.
			::And sorry, no, I'm not going to volunteer to have a named responsibility in sorting out the mess: I'll just chip in as and when. ]] 00:37, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I only added KJP1 and Cremastra because they seem to have affirmatively volunteered, but of course they'd have to agree to this. ] (]/]) 00:53, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Wording looks good, it covers the issues editors have flagged and I’m fine with the reference to myself. ] (]) 05:59, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::Wording looks good, but I’d widen slightly to say no new articles in draft space or user space, nor any expansion of articles which he did not create from afresh or expand from a redirect. That will focus the activity on clean up, rather than it only being a smaller proportion of their activity. - ] (]) 08:28, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::What constitues "expansion"? Does it include: an infobox? a few words about local authority area? a "collage" which replaces one clear photo of the town hall with a trio of images dominated by a football crowd? A tight definition is needed to avoid any ambiguity. ]] 09:06, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::Having looked further at Dragon's edits of today, I'm moving towards supporting a ban on all edits beyond the cleanup operation. The collage he added to ], never mind the (to my mind) questionable choice of images, had the captions in the wrong order, even after he had "corrected" the collage. I think we could at this point collectively lose our patience with his careless editing. ]] 09:16, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::Thanks for the question ]. To clarify, I meant '''any''' expansion, even a tiny one, and that’s for userspace or mainspace. To my mind—and others may well differ on this point—the only editing DoB should be doing ''anywhere'' on WP is either cleaning up his old articles (under supervision), or liaising with the relevant people about that clean-up. - ] (]) 09:30, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::So perhaps: "Dragon is indefinitely restricted from editing in mainspace, except to make corrections and improvements to articles he created or converted from a redirect. This restriction is appealable in six months only if DragonofBatley participates in a cleanup project of articles that he has created, ... " ]] 09:53, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::I agree with that. And thanks to everyone here. I think we need to make these tweaks: "{{noping2|DragonofBatley}} is indefinitely restricted from editing in mainspace and submitting drafts to AfC, except to make corrections and improvements to articles he previously created or previously converted from a redirect. This restriction is appealable in six months only if DragonofBatley successfully participates in a cleanup project of articles that he has created, to be coordinated by {{noping2|KJP1}} and {{noping2|Cremastra}}." I've tried to close any loopholes there. --] (]) 14:12, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::::Okay, looks good. @] what are we going for in the cleanup project? The CCI-thing suggested above with a list of articles created, or something different? <span style="font:14px Gill Sans;">'']'' (] — ])</span> 14:43, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::::{{U|Cremastra}} - I've worked up a table as a basis for reviewing the articles, and Rupples and I have tried a few out. So as not to clutter up this discussion, I'll post details on your Talkpage. Best regards. ] (]) 16:44, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::::Hold on. This goes much further than @] wording. Thought there was more or less consensus on restricting article creation, in whatever form. Why the (sudden?) widening of the proposed restriction to editing in mainspace? ] (]) 14:46, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::::In my case, it's because Dragon has been demonstrating today that he appears not to be able to edit without making substantial careless mistakes, as at ]. I've lost patience. ]] 16:13, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::Perhaps we need to consider 3 options which have been suggested:
			:::::::::::::# No creation of new articles or drafts, including overwriting redirects
			:::::::::::::# No expansion of articles (defined how? What if he adds 25 words and removes 20, or 30?)
			:::::::::::::# No editing in mainspace.
			:::::::::::::]] 16:15, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			:I think we can have !voters choose from amongst options. I'm not going to include the no expansion rule because I don't think that's really workable. If this is to everyone's satisfaction, I will start a survey where involved and uninvolved editors can weigh in.{{pb}}{{noping2|DragonofBatley}} is subject to the following indefinite editing restriction(s):{{pb}}
			::'''Option A''': DragonofBatley may not publish new articles to mainspace, convert redirects to articles, or submit drafts to AfC.
			::'''Option B''': DragonofBatley may not edit in mainspace, except to make corrections and improvements to articles he previously created, converted from a redirect, or significantly expanded.
			::'''Option C''': DragonofBatley may not edit in any namespace except to make corrections and improvements to articles he previously created, previously converted from a redirect, or significantly expanded, or to liaise with editors assisting him in correcting or improving those articles.
			:{{pb}}The restriction(s) may be appealed in six months only if DragonofBatley participates in a cleanup project of articles that he has created, to be coordinated by {{noping2|KJP1}} and {{noping2|Cremastra}}. ] (]/]) 16:23, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			::I think those options nicely sum up the two approaches; the more-generous one which allows mainspace editing of existing articles; and the tighter one that restricts them to working only on those 400+ existing articles that they created (here, I think we'd need SchroCat's caveat about "liaising with the relevant people about the clean-up"). I will work with either approach, as consensus determines, but '''would personally favour Option B'''. I appreciate that this is the tougher option, but having seen the three, admittedly minor, errors that DragonofBatley introduced this morning into ], a Featured article, I do not think they can currently edit appropriately without support. I am really hoping that their involvement in the clean-up work will give them the necessary competence to do so in the future. ] (]) 16:38, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::@]: I made some changes. ] (]/]) 17:20, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Then I'd favour C, but B and C are really the same. Cremastra and I will need to talk with DragonofBatley, on his Talkpage, on ours, and on the Talkpages of articles we're jointly reviewing, for this to work and for it to achieve both objectives - address any issues in the articles and improve DragonofBatley's editing skills. ] (]) 17:27, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::p.s. ] this morning is a good example of this; I wanted him to be able to identify/correct the errors that had been introduced. ] (]) 17:31, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Question: does option C prohibit DragonofBatley from commenting/!voting on articles they've created at AfD discussions? ] (]) 18:05, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::That’s a good, and unthought-of, point. I think they should be able to do so, as the article’s author, and because there will be lots of learning. ] (]) 18:11, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::I agree. ] (]) 18:15, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::@] and @]: option C amended below. ] (]/]) 18:17, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Should option C also include a clause allowing Dragon to respond if he is mentioned in any discussion in WP space (thinking of ANI, AN, AIV, SPI, ... )? ]] 22:35, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I think that is probably a given and doesn't really need to be spelled out. ] (]/]) 22:44, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			=== Proposal: DragonofBatley editing restriction(s) ===
	In accordance with the rules set forth by ] I request (alternatively, in descending rank of preference)
			{{noping2|DragonofBatley}} is subject to the following indefinite editing restriction(s):
			:'''Option A''': DragonofBatley may not publish new articles to mainspace, convert redirects to articles, or submit drafts to AfC.
	*That the article, edit histories, and the attendant talk pages are temporarily restored, if necessary completely edit-blocked.
			:'''Option B''': DragonofBatley may not edit in mainspace, except to make corrections and improvements to articles he has previously created, converted from a redirect, or significantly expanded, or to oppose a PROD.
			:'''Option C''': DragonofBatley may not edit in any namespace except: (1) to make corrections and improvements to articles he has previously created, converted from a redirect, or significantly expanded; (2) to comment in AfD discussions or to oppose PRODs or CSDs regarding those articles; or (3) to liaise with editors assisting him in correcting or improving those articles.
			The restriction(s) may be appealed in six months only if DragonofBatley participates in a cleanup project of articles that he has created, to be coordinated by {{noping2|KJP1}} and {{noping2|Cremastra}}. ] (]/]) 17:37, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
	*That the article, edit histories, and the attendant talk pages are restored to my user space
			==== Uninvolved editors ====
	*That the article, edit histories, and the attendant talk pages are sent to my email.
			==== Involved editors ====
	Thank you.] (]) 13:01, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
			:{{ping|KJP1|Cremastra|Rupples|PamD|DragonofBatley|Crouch, Swale|SchroCat|Tryptofish|Noswall59|p=.}} (Apologies if I missed anyone.) ] (]/]) 18:26, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support''' option A as proposed for 6 months. I think its quite clear that that is needed given as noted the burden this might have on AFC but I'm willing to consider allowing some AFC say 1 article a week but I think it might be better to wait until the cleanup has been done the they have demonstrated the ability to create suitable articles. I would say it would be fine for DragonofBatley to ask KJP1 or Cremastra or another experienced user (if they explain their restrictions) to move drafts they have created to mainspace but I would not suggest they do that until the cleanup has been completed. I would also '''support''' option B I would consider allowing an appeal of only 2 or 3 months as this restriction is much more restrictive but I think given as noted by PamD their problems with editing existing articles this might well be helpful especially since if they can't create new articles I'd expect a shift towards the problems with existing articles. '''Oppose''' option C as (1) I'm not aware of problems outside mainspace and (2) I think in any case this would be too restrictive at least for 6 months, if C is done I'd at least support allowing appeal after 2 or 3 months. So in summary I think option B plus 1 article through AFC every week or every other week would be the best option but I don't have a strong opinion. ''']''' (]) 19:05, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Oppose all''', as written. Sorry, this has changed from what I could support. First, in the draft version that I suggested, I had the word "successfully" in the sentence that mentions KJP1 and Cremastra: "only if DragonofBatley successfully participates...". That's important. The coordinators will need to evaluate whether or not he "got the message", not just whether he made some token effort, and their evaluation needs to have a meaningful role in the consideration of an appeal. I definitely cannot support A, because I think his mainspace editing needs to be restricted to fixing his mistakes. Anything less does not comport with the facts as we have them. As for B and C, I agree with participation in AfD, but that's in project space, not mainspace. I think objecting to PRODs or CSDs is not worth allowing. C comes closest to how I feel, but I don't feel that we need to make formal restrictions of his editing outside of mainspace. He should be able to communicate on his talk page and user page, without being restricted, and he should probably be able to comment on talk pages of articles. --] (]) 23:51, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''C''' if anything. (Again, wasn't pinged, but I have been a bit involved.) DragonofBatley keeps demonstrating borderline lack of competence. Most recently inserting one of his collages into an FA (I'd forgotten he also added collages) and getting the captions wrong. The clarity and correctness of the posting here is also at or below the standard we should expect for a participant in a writing project: {{tq| If it's a last chance, it's something I'm gonna have to downgrade. I'll just stick to my own page and sandbox. If I remove redirects I'll see if theres enough for an article for AfC or I'll send it as seperate and if accepted on good grounds. The redirect can be then merged to that article. Of course I'll not remove it but please do note. I am going to be taking a long term occasional editing spree.}} I don't trust their judgement on what is an improvement to an article; and how far should we stretch to try to accommodate someone who needs so many curbs and guiderails? I deeply appreciate the willingness of other editors to help them with the task of cleaning up their articles (as well as all the time and effort some editors have already expended trying to advise and help them); I recognise that there are legitimately differing views on some of what they like to do, such as the collages; but I'd rather see them restricted to their user talk and user space, workshopping the article fixes there. (Note: Several of the 400 or so articles have already been fixed, like the churches I worked on. The task is less massive than it may seem.) ] (]) 03:47, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Prefer''' the less stringent '''option A''' because I’d like to see self-motivation from DragonofBatley to assist with the clean-up. OK with adding "successfully" to the option. It is disappointing that Dragon has recently made errors on ], all the more so it being a featured article, and it did lead me to consider supporting a ‘tougher’ restriction. Whatever is decided, it would be unreasonable for Dragon to be bombarded with too many queries over a short space of time; in particular, AfD nominations should be staggered. Dragon’s articles are on encyclopedic topics; though it looks a fair few will be merged or redirected because of marginal notability. After a very brief review, it seems the use of erroneous citations is mostly a recent phenomenon (last three months or so). Note the increased pace of Dragon’s article creation from September 2024. ] (]) 12:00, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			==== Discussion ====
	:No edit history is available for that article. This means that no admin is able to see the article, or to fulfill any of your requests. I suppose that the article was oversighted, and that only an oversighter can decide to fulfill any of your requests (assuming that there is anything in the edit history that is not "oversightworthy", since things that really need oversight are never sent to users afterwards, AFAIK). ] (]) 13:33, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
			* I think I would be happier if:
	::Huh? What page are you talking about? ] and ] works for me. ] (]) 13:42, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
			# there was a restriction on userspace editing too - limiting them only to work connected to the clean-up (allowing rewrites of sections, slowly building up sections and sources before rewriting something in the list of 400).
	:::BsBsBs linked to the secure server. The equivalent pages on the normal server work as expected. ] <sup>]</sup> 13:51, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
			# I'd also be happier if the end sentence from above was used: "{{tq|This restriction is appealable in six months only if DragonofBatley successfully participates in a clean-up project of articles that he has created, to be coordinated by {{noping2|KJP1}} and {{noping2|Cremastra}}.}}" This should both focus the activity solely onto the clean-up, and also make DoB '''prove''' to people that he is both willing and capable of writing decent content. - ] (]) 09:30, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
	::::Ah, that explains it. Thanks, both of you, for correcting my mistake and explaining it! ] (]) 14:10, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
			* I suggest that the restriction needs to include Category space as well, to protect the encyclopedia from the creation of unnecessary categories, which could then be added to articles Dragon has himself created. See ]. If we expect Dragon to concentrate on the cleanup project, we need to curb his enthusiastic creation of categories (and perhaps template, navboxes, portals, anything else which no-one thought to include ...). ]] 11:00, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			== Stalking from @Iruka13 ==
	:: I get: "Unauthorized - The action you have requested is limited to users in one of the groups: Administrators, Researchers. I must not be of the chosen few. ] (]) 14:14, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
			*{{userlinks|Iruka13}}
			This is a continuation of various discussions happening on the Talk page of the user ].
			I have been feeling harassed and stalked by this user for months now, figuring it was only me. Except, as is evidenced from that user's talk page, it ISN'T only me. As well as ], @] has laid out their own harassment. Bear in mind both of our posts come AFTER the user was already banned for a week by @] for incivility to a different person entirely. I don't believe it's only us.
	:You clearly ''haven't got a clue'' of how Misplaced Pages works. Most people who haven't been editing here for at least a few months don't have a clue, so that's normal. What's not normal is that such a huge drama is being made out of a simple misunderstanding of Misplaced Pages's mission. I suggest that before lecturing hundreds of editors about how they have been manipulated and put under pressure by a person from (in many cases) a different continent, and whom they never heard of, you take ] and read them, to get a feeling for how we ''generally'' do things here. But of course you might not be interested in doing so, because it might disprove your conspiracy theory. ] ] 13:51, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
			As laid out: one of my photos was tagged by @] for deletion around 4 months ago. So fine. Except when asking why, or if the user had read any of the supporting material, I was met by threats to delete work I'd done on the site - plus varying degrees of condescension and bullying. This was largely on the talk page of a now deleted file. Since then, the same user has tagged files from me at regular intervals - many of which are for - at best - spurious reasons. The reason I say this is stalking is that these images aren't new. If there was a genuine issue, they could have *all* been tagged four months ago. Instead it's a drip-drip-drip. As an example, was tagged last week and deleted today. This was an image used on a page relating to art books, for which the primary feature is the size of the book. There was a regular sized book on top of the larger one showing this size. That's the point of the page. There are book covers all over this site - and I would argue this file had little difference to any of them. I believe it had the correct meta data.
	:::Oho, Mr. Adler, landed right at the bottom of Sven Manguard's triangle, didn't we? Are you perchance referring to the fact that I am from a different continent? FYI, I plied my profession in the U.S.A, for 27 years, and I still pay my taxes here. As for the rest of it: Sticks and stones. You can try insulting me as much a you want, I'm used to it. ] (]) 14:08, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
			If the file was correctly deleted, then OK. Except this file has been on the site for months. It wasn't new. The user could've tagged it months ago when tagging other files of mine. Instead, it's that steady stream of harassment. They never engage civilly, never explain, never offer any reasoning. Again, from the other comments on the user's Talk page, this practice of stalking, bullying, and condescension is seemingly not a one-off. I don't understand how there can be so much drama on a single six-week period of one person's Talk page. Especially when, apparently, the user has already been banned from Commons for similar destructive behaviour. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 03:15, 14 January 2025 (UTC)</small>
	::::??? You seemed to be overdramatising so I thought you were this Village Voice guy or someone related. Now I see you have been around a bit longer, though apparently not enough to understand our notability criteria. Sorry for the confusion. ] ] 14:24, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
			:Just dropping a link to my discussion with Iruka . My block was less about whether they were technically correct, but their complete unwillingness and inability to edit in a collaborative environment despite a multitude of warnings. I have not followed up with further sanctions as at least one admin disagreed, and I haven't had the on wiki time to moderate this. My POV there and here is that being right isn't sufficient, and Iruka13 has to learn to play well with others if he's going to edit here. I am not sure whether this is a language barrier, but they've been told a number of times that their conduct is problematic. ] ] 03:22, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
	::I am following procedure as outlined in ]. I don't know how the request is fulfilled and who will fulfill it. ] doesn't mention any oversighting. I strongly doubt that the data have been erased and thrown away. Suppositions are not helpful. Again, I am filing this request in order to help me form an opinion whether this article should be nominated for ]. In the business, we used to call this "file an FOIA request." ] (]) 13:52, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
			::I'm also going to add from what I've seen at the deletion discussions (they've not targeted any of mine; I exclusively deal in copyleft media on Commons) that Iruka13 is frequently and obviously meritless in their nominations. A huge portion of them are very obviously spurious in a way that's comparable to ] and ], where the amount of energy required to nominate them is immensely lower than the amount required to refute them. I'm genuinely baffled that they've been getting away with this. If they were basically always correct and just being – pardon my French – an insufferable jackass about it, that would be one thing. It's another thing entirely, though, to take a birdshot approach to deletion noms knowing there will be zero repurcussions for whichever spuriously nominated ones survive the discussion because ]. It's literally just a technique aimed at exhausting the other party, and this bizarre edge case they're creating has made me think that we might actually need some sort of limit on the number of noms possible in a given time period. <b>]</b> ] 03:33, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Can you provide the redlink to the "talk page of a deleted file" where you said that the harassment "largely" occurred? Administrators can view the content of a deleted page. :) ] <sup>]]</sup> 03:26, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::I'd love to - but I don't know how to find a page that was deleted so long ago. I think it would have been around October 2024? Is there a way I can search this out? ] (]) 03:29, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I am reproducing the comment from ] here:{{tq2|Do you even know what is ] and what is not? Where in ] is this distinction mentioned? Do you understand that I can demolish everything you wrote and ]? And ], ok? — Ирука<sup>13</sup> 23:18, 12 November 2024 (UTC)}} ] (]/]) 03:36, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Yes! That's the comment. The "demolish everything you wrote" bit.
			::::The same user has now been following me around for months. This is exactly the reason other users like @] feel unsafe. How is this allowed to go on? ] (]) 03:38, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::That conduct probably would have merited a temporary block in November, but I'm not going to block him based on that now without more evidence that it's part of a pattern. Regarding {{tq|the same user has tagged files from me at regular intervals - many of which are for - at best - spurious reasons}}, could you please provide diffs (perhaps to talk page notices that you got) of spurious deletion nominations? ] (]/]) 03:43, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::It's the process of one after the other, after the other.
			::::::If there were genuine issues with images, why didn't Iruka tag them all back then? Instead, it's been a drip-drip-drip all the way up until today. This is why I feel harassed. The tagging isn't on new images.
			::::::As an example, was tagged last week and deleted today. This was an image used on a page relating to art books, for which the primary feature is the size of the book. There was a regular sized book on top of the larger one showing this size. That's the point of the page. There are book covers all over this site - and I would argue this file had little difference to any of them. I believe it had the correct meta data.
			::::::If the file was correctly deleted, then OK. Except this file has been on the site for months. It wasn't new. The user could've tagged it months ago when tagging other files of mine. Instead, it's that steady stream. ] (]) 03:47, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::My understanding is that stuff like that lead to Star Missicipi's 1 week block on the 10th of December. Has there been any conduct made you feel uncomfortable since their block expired, beyond nominating your images for deletion (indicating they might be watching which images you make) and them being deleted? :) ] <sup>]]</sup> 03:44, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::Jinx voorts, beat me too it! Had an edit conflict there (but forgot to add {{ec}})! :) ] <sup>]]</sup> 03:45, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::Hi. Yes. was tagged last week and deleted today. This was an image used on a page relating to art books, for which the primary feature is the size of the book. There was a regular sized book on top of the larger one showing this size. That's the point of the page. There are book covers all over this site - and I would argue this file had little difference to any of them. I believe it had the correct meta data.
			::::::If the file was correctly deleted, then OK. Except this file has been on the site for months. It wasn't new. The user could've tagged it months ago when tagging other files of mine. Instead, it's that steady stream.
			::::::Basically, why would they suddenly decide to look at an image that had been up for months, on a whim? ] (]) 03:51, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::My guess would be that the user was looking through your file creations (which is not sanctionable conduct by itself) as they had found you to be, in their opinion, a creator of fair use files that may not meet our guidelines for free-use content and was seeing if there were any others to tag for deletion. If you don't agree with decision of the admin who chose to accept the CSD nom and delete the file, you can submit an appeal to ]. I'm not entirely sure what you want to be done here? Has there been any re-occurance of subpar communication like the above since the 17th of December? ] <sup>]]</sup> 04:01, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::But that's exactly my point. All those files were already on Misplaced Pages at that previous time. If there was genuinely an issue, they could have all been tagged in one go.
			::::::::Instead, it's tag a file, wait 2-3 weeks, tag another, wait 2-3 weeks, tag another. And repeat.
			::::::::But why would anyone keep returning to those old images, from a single user, over and over and over?
			::::::::That's why I feel harassed. Especially because - as with the image linked above - I don't believe there's an issue.
			::::::::Plus, as pointed out by @], tahere have been more than 150 image deletion nominations in the last two weeks alone. ] (]) 04:07, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::Three* but nonetheless correct. <b>]</b> ] 04:12, 14 January 2025 (UTC)e
			::::{{U|Voorts}}, you just beat me to it--thanks. But let me add that Peterson doesn't look good either. What Iruka was responding to was this, " There's no point in people drive-bying these pages with that "needs image" tag if, when somebody tries to do something about it, a person *with zero knowledge of the subject matter* doesn't bother to do any reading before rejecting. This whole process is ridiculous." ] (]) 03:39, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::: I've undeleted that file talk page so non-admin watchers can see the whole exchange in context. ] ] 03:42, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:I'm reading over a bunch of material, including their talk page. It's clear to me (and I think ] agrees) that many of their deletion nominations are correct. On the other hand, the way in which they go about things is deemed problematic by plenty of others, and I wonder if ], ], ], and ] have any additional insight. ] (]) 03:32, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:: Yeah, that matched my understanding, including them being usually (but by no means always) right on the merits but problematic in how they went about it. I don't really have the energy to spent more time analyzing this than I already have - the other admins watching this page can do what needs to be done and I don't think any further comments from me would be helpful. ] ] 03:36, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Their nomination of ] was not correct. The file had a nominally large pixel size, but was very compressed. When I removed their tag for the image to be shrunk, they nominated it for speedy deletion, which makes no sense and is clearly retaliatory. They tagged it as being an entire work uploaded when an excerpt would do, when they knew it was a single compressed frame from a 44 minute film. <span style="position: relative; top: -0.5em;">꧁</span>]<span style="position: relative; top: -0.5em;">꧂</span> 12:31, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I wouldn't say that their tagging of the file for speedy deletion was totally incorrect and made no sense given the size of the original file that was uploaded; the close to ] and the ] of the {{tlx|Non-free no reduce}} template ] to the file's page and ] of the the {{tlx|Non-free reduce}} template originally added by Iruka13. For reference, {{u|Voorts}}, who's an administrator, did !vote delete in the FFD, but for a different reason; the file ultimately was kept, but it was reduced. You disagreed with the tagging of the file for reduction by Iruka13 but, for some reason, don't seem to have an issue with the closing administrator who did exactly the same thing. -- ] (]) 13:22, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::I forgot about that discussion. I don't think it makes me involved here, but I'm not planning on taking action at this point anyways. If any evidence of a continuing problem had been presented, as I've asked numerous times, I would have blocked, but the allegations of stalking are based on very thin evidence. ] (]/]) 14:36, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::@], you don’t know what I don’t have an issue with. I still think there was no reason for the bot reduction of the file. The relevance of the reduction tagging is in the fact that “this file should be kept and altered” cannot lead to “this file should be deleted” without some major change in opinion, which Iruka never explained—hence my belief that it was just a lashing-out, as I believe is evidenced by the fact that their tag alleging that the file interferes with the market role of the original work and that the still is a complete work from which an excerpt could be taken instead was completely false and never explained—''still'' never explained, actually. <span style="position: relative; top: -0.5em;">꧁</span>]<span style="position: relative; top: -0.5em;">꧂</span> 18:01, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::Four of your uploads (the one discussed above, ], ] and ]) were all uploaded at sizes considered big enough to be tagged by a bot for reduction almost within a day of being uploaded. The file discussed here was tagged by a bot ], but you removed the tag ] and added a "Non-free no reduce" template ]; perhaps you thought that resolved things. Iruka13 removed the "Non-free free no reduce" template ], and you re-added it ]. I'm guessing Iruka13 tagged the file because they felt re-adding the "Non-free reduce" template would've just been reverted again and led to accusations of edit warring. The file was tagged for speedy deletion per ] and ], each of which are reasons related to ]. You then started the discussion about the file, first on its talk page and then at FFD, and Iruka did respond on both pages. None of the above seems to seems (at least to me) to clearly indicate any type of retaliaton against you by Iruka13; rather, it seems like something not too uncommon when it comes to disagreements over non-free files, and it also seems to have been resolved as such. If you can demonstrate that Iruka13 did similar things with respect to your other file uploads or uploads by others, then that might indicate a pattern of some kind; their interaction with you, however, seems to have been civil and seems to have ended with the FFD. Finally, the "Criterion 3b, because an entire work is being used when a portion or a reduced-size copy would suffice" used in the {{tlx|di-fails NFCC}} template is boilerplate text added when a template's {{para|3b}} parameter is set as {{para|3b|yes}}; so, that's the default option when using that template. Personally, I might've just skipped that template and gone to FFD instead, but different strokes for different folks, and, once again, I don't see tagging the file for speedy deletion as being a retaliatory act. Iruka13 can't delete files and any files they tag for speedy deletion are going to be ultimately reviewed by an administrator, and it's possible that the file would've ended up at FFD based on that review. If you've got issues with the bot tagging the file for reduction, the bot operator is probably the best person to express them to. Similarly, if you feel the FFD close was incorrect, you can follow ]. -- ] (]) 20:25, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::> I'm guessing Iruka13 tagged the file because they felt re-adding the "Non-free reduce" template would've just been reverted again
			::::::And therein lies the point because you shouldn’t have to guess. Iruka could actually engage with editors on a polite, peer-to-peer, basis.
			::::::Instead, there is no engagement. It’s tag, move on; tag, move on - dozens of times a day, every day. And should anyone dare engage, they get wikilawyered, or threats such as:
			::::::> Do you understand that I can demolish everything you wrote
			::::::All from a user who, by their own admission, has multiple bans for harassment. Which is, at least from my standing, why I and others feel bullied and harassed. After all it is someone who’ll openly tell you that’s how they behave, knowing full well they get welcomed back to do it again. ] (]) 20:44, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::You cannot nominate a file for deletion because you think your tag is going to be removed. That is not a deletion rationale. I don’t care about establishing a pattern of behavior for this user—I’m just saying that they tagged a file for deletion because they got annoyed that their NFR tag got reverted, and that is a problem. <span style="position: relative; top: -0.5em;">꧁</span>]<span style="position: relative; top: -0.5em;">꧂</span> 02:23, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::You can, however, nominate or tag a non-free file for deletion if you feel it fails to meet <s>all</s><u>one</u> of the ten non-free content use criteria. Iruka13 listed two criteria that they felt the non-free use failed; you disagreed with their assessment and the file ended up being discussed at FFD. That's a fairly common occurrence when it comes to disagreements over non-free use, and doesn't necessarily mean anyone was annoyed or trying to retaliate. The fact that the non-free file was kept but also reduced, also doesn't mean they were totally incorrect in their assessment, at least with respect to NFCC#3b. You posted above that I {{tq|don't know what you have an issue with}}, yet you're quick to assume that Iruka13's tagging of the file just had to be done to get back at you. -- ] (]) 03:16, 15 January 2025 (UTC)<ins>; <small>post edited. -- 03:01, 17 January 2025 (UTC)</small></ins>
			::::::::There is an unexplained gap between putting a file in a queue to be altered and nominating it for deletion for failing two criteria (neither of which it failed—not a single other editor supported those arguments). My judgment is that this was done out of spite. That editor should feel free to correct me and explain himself. <span style="position: relative; top: -0.5em;">꧁</span>]<span style="position: relative; top: -0.5em;">꧂</span> 15:21, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			:@] & @]: If I am going to take action, I need to see a post-block pattern of conduct. Please provide some form of evidence, such as diffs. ] (]/]) 03:54, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::My most recent issues relate to the file I linked above - . This was tagged last week and deleted today.
			::Again, if the file was correctly deleted, then OK. Except this file has been on the site for months. It wasn't new. The user could've tagged it months ago when tagging other files of mine. Instead, it's the fifth or sixth(?) that's been tagged and deleted since that first one. Each a week or three apart.
			::Of course I feel stalked. None of these images are new. They could've all been tagged at the time.
			::Instead, it's drip-drip-drip.
			::On that one linked above, why would Iruka suddenly decide to look at an image that had been up for months on a whim? Unless it's because they're stalking. It's the same behaviour described by @] ] (]) 04:02, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::The instructions at the top of this page state: {{tq|Be brief and include ''']''' demonstrating the problem}} (emphasis in original). I am not going to block someone without evidence. ] (]/]) 04:06, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::There's no way I could possibly fulfil what you ask.
			::::The point is that instead of tagging multiple files for deletion in one go, the same user has tagged image files of mine one after the other. Tag for deletion, wait 2-3 weeks, tag, wait 2-3 weeks, tag.
			::::I can't see the files *because they've been deleted*. What am I supposed to link you to?
			::::Even if all the deletions were correct - and I'm not convinced that's true - how is this a legitimate way to act?
			::::The harassment is that all these files were live when the first tag was made. Instead of highlighting any issues at the time, Iruka has been following me around the site for months. I'm not the only person saying this. ] (]) 04:13, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::Looking at your talk page history, you received two deletion notifications on 12 November 2024 (one for an image that you uploaded that same date, and one for an image that you uploaded a few weeks prior), one on 22 November 2024 for the image you uploaded 12 November, one on 3 December 2024 for an image you uploaded in October, and one on 6 January for an image you uploaded in October.{{pb}}The 22 November nomination makes sense in context because it was originally nominated for lacking an adequate license per F4 on 12 November, which was remedied, and then Iruka came back ten days later to nominate it for lacking contextual significance. That leaves the nominations on 3 December and 6 January. Two nominations one month apart is not adequate evidence of stalking, in my opinion. ] (]/]) 04:43, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::I also note your responses to two of those notifications (both for files that were deleted):
			::::::* ]
			::::::* ]
			:::::: ] (]/]) 04:49, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::OK @] & @]- I think I have been able to find some sort of timeline to illustrate what I'm saying.
			:::::::On 12 Nov, ] was nominated for deletion. I'd uploaded in the days before, so OK. Fair enough. I'm still not convinced by the merits of this deletion in regards to the point of the page and the image - but OK.
			:::::::On 22 Nov, ] was nominated.
			:::::::On 3 Dec ] was nominated.
			:::::::On 6 Jan ] was nominated. This is the most dubious of all.
			:::::::These four images were all there at the time of the first nomination. If there was genuinely an issue, they could have all been tagged at once.
			:::::::Instead, it's four over two months - which comes directly after the message:
			:::::::> Do you understand that I can demolish everything you wrote
			:::::::Which is exactly what's happening. Spaced out, spurious nominations.
			:::::::Why would a user suddenly return to look at a different user's work, weeks apart, unless they're stalking?
			:::::::And, if it was only me, then maybe I'd put it down to paranoia. Except the user's Talk page has at least one other user saying a very similar thing.
			:::::::I can't see the comments you've linked to btw - but believe it or not, when someone says
			:::::::> Do you understand that I can demolish everything you wrote
			:::::::and then starts doing it, it does tend to lead to incivility. ] (]) 04:52, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::Just to add, by the user's own admission in 2023, they have
			::::::::> 2.5 bans for harassing users on 3 projects
			::::::::Link: ]
			::::::::That's in *their own words*. ] (]) 05:08, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::{{tq|If there was genuinely an issue, they could have all been tagged at once.}} There's no rule that requires an editor to go through another editor's contributions and decide whether to nominate them for deletion all at once. There are also innocent explanations, such as not wanting to overwhelm someone with a dozen nominations all at once or not having the time.{{pb}}Regarding Netherzone's claim of stalking, Iruka's "]" appears to be a place where they keep notes on files they intend to renominate for deletion at a later date.{{pb}}I am also well aware of the history of Iruka's blocks, but blocks can't be used to punish people for sins of the past. I see no evidence of stalking here and I won't be taking action. ] (]/]) 05:12, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::OK, so when another old file gets tagged with little justification in 2-3 weeks, can I message you again? What about 2-3 weeks after that?
			:::::::::I don't even know how I'm supposed to appeal / counteract the tag-tag-tag behaviour. I can't see any justification for the deletion of today's file and it's not as if Iruka ever gives any reason. ] (]) 05:20, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::{{outdent|6}} Iruka has provided reasons consistent with policies, guidelines, and practice. For example, ] was tagged with <nowiki>{{di-fails NFCC|date=6 January 2025|1=yes|8=yes}}</nowiki>. I've reviewed the fair use rationale that you provided and I believe that the file was properly deleted. ] (]/]) 05:36, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Does 170 image deletion noms since Christmas count as "a pattern of conduct"? Because I see this as effectively a ] where it's functionally impossible for most editors to meaningfully evaluate the merits of each one. Since non-free media has to meet a substantially higher standard for 'Keep' than for 'Delete', this means that 'Keep' voters need to take substantially more time per nom than the 'Delete' ones, and creating such a glut of noms severely and unfairly tips the balance in favor of a 'Delete' vote on average. <b>]</b> ] 04:03, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Please provide diffs. ] (]/]) 04:10, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Appreciate the ask, because this made me realize that I was incorrect about the original figure. It's actually 210 since Christmas, or a bit over 10 per day. and then Ctrl+F "up for deletion" and "tagging for deletion". 170 noms; 40 CSDs. I want to clarify I've been absent from this since the original block, but this has to be absurd to keep up with for anyone at the discussions trying to argue to in good faith to preserve these images. <b>]</b> ] 04:16, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::How many were declined by patrolling admins? How many were no permission tags where permissions were then added? An admin cannot block someone without evidence and I'm not going to dig through Iruka's contributions to look for it. ] (]/]) 04:23, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::Ultimately I haven't been keeping up with the situation on a per-nom basis, and by nature of them consistently putting up over 1000 edits a month, I'm not going to be going through them except for macro-scale patterns. I was brought here for my perspective, and this is it: that Iruka is abusing the system by making an unprecedented amount of noms with little regard for merit (the noms I witnessed were immediately pre-block, thus as you said not qualifying here for post-block behavior) in order to make dubious noms on average more successful solely because they can't have as much individual time dedicated to them. It's a very obvious tactic, and I'm equal parts perplexed that there's no protection against this and yet unsurprised because there's likely never been anyone this unnaturally zealous to warrant it. I don't intend to go beyond what I was brought here to do for right now. <b>]</b> ] 04:37, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::{{tq|It's a very obvious tactic, I'm equal parts perplexed that there's no protection against this and yet unsurprised because there's likely never been anyone this unnaturally zealous to warrant it.}} Please do comment on other editors' motives without evidence. ] (]/]) 04:42, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::Between more than one experienced editor accusing Iruka of stalking them, their "let someone else sort it out" attitude toward obvious, consequential mistakes they make, their argumentative behavior, their gross power-tripping attitude ("Do you understand that I can demolish everything you wrote and I will be right?" (also note the wikilawyering going on in that comment)), their ridiculous noms (including arguments like "just use a 3D model bro" or "a free alternative can reasonably exist because you can just get a basketball backboard and break it for an image bro" or "just offer to pay them money to put it under a free license it bro"; all pre-block, so I'm not bothering to dig it up), the absurd frequency of noms they create, and their indefinite block on Commons, all I'll say is that I assume good faith until an editor flushes that down the toilet. With that, I'm done here unless someone has a specific question for me. <b>]</b> ] 04:55, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::"I have 2.5 bans for harassing users on 3 projects."
			:::::::::Kinda sounds like maybe this user does harass people, considering that's what they wrote *on their own page*.
			:::::::::https://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Iruka13/Archives/2023#c-Iruka13-20230927154300-Marchjuly-20230927005100 ] (]) 05:10, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:The stuff in this thread is basically ''de rigueur'' for this user: my past experiences with Iruka13 and file deletion have consisted of extremely bizarre wikilawyering, to the point where I felt like it bordered on deliberate trolling. I do not understand why this editor is permitted to waste so much of people's time with obviously vexatious nominations. <b style="font-family:monospace;color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 06:46, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::I think the key element here is if the nominations were "obviously vexatious", I mean the ones that sparked this ANI were all accepted by the deleting admin, and were done 3 weeks apart to prevent looks of batch deleting a single user's pictures but still caused drama. I wonder if there's a tool on toolforge or smth to calculate accepted vs denied CSDs/FfD noms which may paint a better picture, but from a spot check I just did of both CSD and FfD this are mostly either accepted by the deleting admin or the raised issues are resolved. ] <sup>]]</sup> 07:46, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::To my understanding this ANI is mainly about a) the volume of CSDs and FfDs and b) the user's laboratory. I don't think anyone is arguing that the nominations were actually meritless or vexatious, and those who said they were "wrong" may want to take that up with the deleting admin or ] because it's not like this user is mass-tagging and it's being declined... most of the time issues are resolved or the admin agrees and speedily deletes/the FfD closes as delete. ] <sup>]]</sup> 07:48, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::> and were done 3 weeks apart to prevent looks of batch deleting a single user's pictures but still caused drama
			:::You’ve guessed that this is their motivation - and your guess is equally as valid as my assertion that this is stalking.
			:::In fact, much of various admins’ attempts at justification throughout this thread is guesswork - all of which has had to occur because Iruka does not engage with other users on a polite peer-to-peer basis. There is no “paper trail” to say “this is what they actually meant”. As has been evidenced and pointed out by multiple editors. ] (]) 11:52, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::If you continue to assert this is stalking with no evidence, I will block you for personal attacks. ] (]/]) 13:05, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::Ok, I will simply ask you how do you know tags
			:::::> were done 3 weeks apart to prevent looks of batch deleting a single user's pictures but still caused drama
			:::::Have you guessed? Or has Iruka stated this anywhere? ] (]) 13:09, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::All of the files that he tagged that you uploaded were deleted. There is no rule that prohibits someone from nominating files for deletion spaced apart. At this point, it just feels like you're seeking revenge for that. ] (]/]) 14:30, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::You're guessing my intention the same way you're guessing Iruka's.
			:::::::"Revenge" isn't my intention at all. Revenge for what? If the files were legitimately deleted, then fair enough. It doesn't matter to me.
			:::::::However, the spacing of the reports felt - and feel - like harassment. (I'm being clear that it *felt* like harassment because I don't want to be banned for what you assert are personal attacks).
			:::::::Even with that *feeling*, I would have moved on were it not for the fact that other people were reporting very similar things on the user's Talk page. And then, with a small amount of checking, it seems that Iruka has admitted to harassing other users at various points in the past. And, from what others have said, Iruka has already been banned on multiple occasions, from multiple places, for precisely that. (I don't actually know if this is true).
			:::::::So my *feeling* of being harassed was in fact legitimised by others feeling the same - and apparent past behaviour. Hence this.
			:::::::On the files being deleted, for that specific one ], it was the first time I'd experienced this sort of tagging. I didn't really know what to do with it.
			:::::::The info page said to leave an explanation on the Talk page - which I tried to do.
			:::::::I was then told:
			:::::::> I can demolish everything you wrote
			:::::::along with what I now know is 'wikilawyering'. You can see how I reacted:
			:::::::> Who goes onto a page and says "I can demolish everything you wrote" and then cries about bad faith?!
			:::::::Because from the info page, I assumed that when an admin came to look at that file to decide upon deletion, they would see that remark and do something with it. I didn't even know this ANI process existed then.
			:::::::Except nothing was done. The admin either read Iruka's "demolish" response and decided it was acceptable, or didn't read it.
			:::::::And, ever since then, Iruka has continued to target me at regular intervals, leaving me unsure what - if anything - to do.
			:::::::You can guess that the targeting is to "prevent looks of batch deleting" - but it's still a guess. Iruka could've engaged civilly, in the same way they could with any other user who has reported a problem.
			:::::::In the same way they could be on this thread right now explaining what's actually going on. If they did that, neither you or I would have to guess. ] (]) 14:51, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			Please forgive the length of this. This discussion has gone a bit sideways, the issue is '''''not''''' whether Iruka13 is “correct” or not in their file tagging and file deletions, the problem is that <u>''their behavior is disturbing and upsetting a number of experienced, good-faith editors''</u>, myself included.
	The October 2009 third AFD had 6 participants, of which two are admins, plus 1 user now at 17k edits, one at 8k. The discussion was on the basis of a version of the article with no mention of the controversy, which had been removed in August by a new account which did not participate. ] <sup>]</sup> 13:57, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
			It is precisely the same conduct that got them blocked on Commons, Russian WP and Ukranian WP. Stalking may not be the right term for the behavior but I do believe there is deliberate harassment conducted by the editor. Misplaced Pages itself defines harassment as {{tq|Harassment is a pattern of repeated offensive behavior that appears to a reasonable observer to intentionally target a specific person or persons. Usually, the purpose is to make the target feel threatened or intimidated, and the outcome may be to make editing Misplaced Pages unpleasant for the target, to undermine, frighten, or discourage them from editing.}} That is clearly the effect their behavior has had with multiple ediors.
	::It must be cleanup day. Write a few lines, and suddenly, ], and ] are redlinked. I amend my request and add ], and ] to the request. Thank you . ] (]) 14:30, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	|}
			Here is a synopsis of my interactions with this user and why I feel I have been harassed and made to feel upset and frightened to the point that I’ve virtually stopped editing.
	I just collapsed this entire mess, my comments included. Continue posting there if you feel the need to be nonconstructive. Lets look at the above issues:
	*'''Issue 1: The 'libelous' comments by the Voice:''' has been beaten to death by the community. The voice itself is a reliable source, it's blog, perhaps less so, and Jimbo Wales fiercely denies money as a factor in these deletions
	*'''Issue 2: The meatpuppets:''' has been over for days.
	*'''Issue 3: The article history:''' is the cause of most of the stuff in the box.
	::A primer on the article history. <small>(Mind you this is detective work and I have not seen previous versions)</small>
	:::At one point this was a functional article. It was put up for deletion twice and survived twice. Between the second and third AfDs, the article was whitewashed, and became unbalanced towards a positive view of McMahan. It was deleted by community consensus as a bad article. The article was then recreated, this time heavily in the balance against McMahan. I, with my special talent for stepping unknowingly into existing conflicts, put it up for speedy deletion. I saw an attack page with a history of deletion, and put it up for the CSD for recreations of deleted material. Then I saw the comment and the puppets and posted this thread.
	::That's it people. No conspiracy theory, I don't care if the man has an article or not, it was a procedural nomination. I don't know anyone else involved, I'm not a minion, and I am tired of the drama unfolding in the box.
	:'''We need to end this mess now. Stop posting outside of the box, heck stop posting on this period. There is a proper forum for determining notability, and it ISN'T HERE.'''
	And god bless our tortured souls, <span style="text-shadow:#ff1100 0.10em 0.10em 0.10em"><font color="black">]</font> <sub><span style="text-shadow:#ffd700 0.14em 0.14em 0.14em"><font color="black">]</font></sub></span> 15:05, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	::Just curious, Sven, but you comment on the earlier, deleted versions of the articles - have you seen them, or are you speculating as to their content? ] (]) 15:29, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	:::No, as I said before this is my first interaction with the articles of this person. However I am assuming in good faith that the people that ''have'' seen the articles are being accurate in their depictions, and these assertions are backed up in the various AfDs by the comments of experienced editors. <span style="text-shadow:#ff1100 0.10em 0.10em 0.10em"><font color="black">]</font> <sub><span style="text-shadow:#ffd700 0.14em 0.14em 0.14em"><font color="black">]</font></sub></span> 15:50, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
			1. I uploaded ''']'''. After uploading I realized the size was too large for fair-use, and made a note of my error on the file talk page (I was unable to reduce it because I did not have access to Photoshop at the time). BTW, Zuni fetishes are ceremonial objects made by the Zuni tribe of Native Americans that are also sold as small sculptures; they have nothing to do with the sexualized notion of "fetish".
	===Discussion Collapse===
			2. I received message about the file on my user talk. Diff: to which I responded and answered on the file talk page.
	I don't think the collapsing of large parts of this discussion is a prudent move.
	*It removes large parts of the discussion from plain view and will add fuel to allegations that there is something to hide
	*It breaks the links from the Table Of Content and confuses users
	*There is no other reason for the collapse
			3. The discussion then resumed at the File talk page about the deletion nomination. Diff: where I explained my rationale for fair use. The editor then responded with: {{tq| judging by the response you didn't look at them; right?}}, which I thought was rather rude to assume I don't read messages (which explains my response on my user talk page).
	Also, if this is not the proper place to discuss notability, then notability should not have been introduced right at the beginning of the discussion.
			4. They then went on the argue with me in a mocking tone: {{tq|But it is so. wow, your contribution is bigger than mine, it's not for me to tell you about it}} and {{tq|wow_2, who am I telling this to?}}. I told them that their response did not seem very nice. They responded: {{tq|What I was trying to say is that what I'm saying, you already know. You know better than me. / uploading this image boggles my mind.}} I think it was around this time that Star Mississippi warned the editor on their talk page.
	I totally understand that Sven wants this discussion to go away. It will go away the old fashioned way, by the problems being resolved. Causing a collapse of the page and communication is not conducive to a solution..
			5. After I wrote a more detailed rationale why the file was suitable as fair-use, they refused to answer my own simple question responding instead with: {{tq|I can answer all the questions posed in this message. And I will, if it be necessary. But first, please answer the question - and, for the sake of the experiment, let's assume that all the images in that category are really unsuitable...}} and asked me an "experimental question" whether I could create from scratch a "completely free image", a proposal that would involve spending a large amount of money. Diff: As a volunteer editor, that seemed utterly absurd, and it became clear to me they were just yanking my chain.
	Also, I reiterate the application I made above. It was no frivolous application. I meant it. A similar application had been made above, and it has been likewise ignored. ] (]) 22:06, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
			6. I then noticed they were treating others in similar ways, for example asking editors to buy a glass basketball backboard shield specifically to then smash it with a rock after installing a camera specifically to create a fair use image. Diffs: by {{u|Left guide}}) ]. This clearly seemed they were wikilawyering and arguing for the sake of argument with the intent to annoy and intimidate others. I think it was around this time that {{u|Star Mississippi}} issued a short block.
	== AfD non-admin closure ==
			7. I then noticed on their user page a link to their “Laboratory”, which creeped me out because the strange “experimental questions” seemed like mind-games. I noticed that not only was there an entry for the Zuni fetishes file, but that some of it was actually written in “invisible ink” using the < ! -- template, and included a a number of my file uploads. Diff from January 2: and . I know that being creepy is not a blockable offense but it scared the daylights me, because I have been Wiki-stalked not only online, but in real life.
	{{collapse top|NAC reverted, community has sufficiently expressed its displeasure with the conduct involved}}
	{{resolved|NAC reverted by ] ]&nbsp;<sup><small>]</small></sup> 01:22, 14 October 2010 (UTC)}}
	Can an admin take a look at this non-admin closure and revert if necessary: ]. I don't think that this nomination was "unquestionably vandalism or disruption", which is part of the ] policy that the closer references. The nomination points out notability issues and is clearly not an attempt to "end an editing dispute through deletion, where dispute resolution is a more appropriate course". Also, there was a vote to merge the article already, so speedy keep doesn't seem appropriate here. ] often comments about AfD's he deems inappropriate because the most likely outcome will be a merge, not deletion. It appears he is trying to take this to the next level by actually closing AfD's he deems inappropriate. ]&nbsp;<sup><small>]</small></sup> 01:06, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
	:Non-admin, but this doesn't look like vandalism or disruption; in fact I see none of the criteria at SK have been met. Merging is acceptable after an AFD if it's agreed on the tpage of the relevant article. You should have noted that the vote to merge was ''yours'', and in any case that is only a criterion for speedy keep if the ''nominator'' withdraws and/or suggests it. →&nbsp;]&nbsp;]<small>&nbsp;01:15, 14 October 2010 (UTC)</small>
	:I agree with your assessment, but as I am somewhat involved (I agreed with the merge at another venue) I can't really do anything about it. <font color="#cc6600">]</font><sup><small>(<font color="#ff6600">]</font>)</small></sup> 01:15, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
	*Without getting too deep into the specifics of this particular incident, the Colonel is increasingly trying to use his own interpretations of policies to bully, hector, and harrass other users and stifle debate at various AFDs. Policies are tools, not ''weapons'' to be used to further someone's pet wiki-philosophy, and the Colonel needs to understand that. ] (]) 01:16, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
	::Yes, I forgot to disclose that the one vote to merge was made by me. ]&nbsp;<sup><small>]</small></sup> 01:18, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
	: I've reopened. Problem solved.] (]) 01:19, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
	::Thanks. ]&nbsp;<sup><small>]</small></sup> 01:21, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
	:::Thanks for taking care of this issue. This editor has been stalking me a bit lately, removing prods without explanation. They seem to be adamant in their anti-deletion views. I see a couple of admins have left some cautionary words on this editors talk page. Hopefully this will calm things down a bit.--] (]) 02:01, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
	If there is evidence that this was a pointy close, he should be blocked until he unequivocally states he won't repeat the behaviour.--] (]) 06:14, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
			8. I directly asked them to STOP following me around. Instead they created a user sub-page, replacing all the images with 19th century inaccurate illustrations, romanticized representations of the art of Zuni tribe Native Americans by none other than an ethnographer who looted artifacts from the Zuni people. Diff: I again demanded that they STOP and I quit editing. I refuse to be someone's "experimental laboratory" subject, that is disturbingly creepy.
	* The discussion has been restarted and we observe that not a single editor has agreed with the nominator's proposition that the article be deleted. Nominations of this sort are sadly very common and their outcomes are therefore quite familiar. When a merge discussion is already underway for such an article, it seems to be disruptive to nominate it for deletion as this is forking the discussion in a forum-shopping manner. SK criterion 2.4 exists to curtail such process abuse and seemed quite appropriate. When SK criteria apply then the whole point of that subprocess is that it be used speedily so as to be effective in shutting down an inappropriate discussion. ] (]) 06:43, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
	*:And no-admin closures are only to be used in clear cut cases when it is a non-controversial close. A long time user has also made an argument for deletion at this point.--] (]) 12:35, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
	::*Colonel, you are adept at pointing out that no one has agreed with the nominator, however you seem to be blind to the fact that no one (out of about 10 editors) has agreed with you that any SK criteria apply to that AfD, or to similar AfD's. Continuing to argue your point will not change this. Accept that you were wrong and don't do it again. ]&nbsp;<sup><small>]</small></sup> 13:45, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
	:::*i think the colonel probably did not follow policy but after reading this i can see why he thought that SK 2 4 ''nominations that are clearly an attempt to end an editing dispute through deletion'' applied. the colonel should probably have contacted an admin since this was going to be controversial, but i can see why the colonel might have thought this was an ok thing to do. ] (]) 14:02, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
	::::IIRC he's done this before, so no, I would not assume good faith here. And following the the reversal, it has all (one flawed IAR and one "they're all notable" notwithstanding) gone to the delete or merge end of things. ] (]) 14:09, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
	::::*{{strikethrough|i only see 2 keep votes. 1 is yours and the other was someone in the original merge discussion}}. that doesnt sound like "all gone to the delete" to me. ] (]) 14:12, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
	:::::You are misreading it completely, then. I and someone else right above mine called for ''deletion'', and there have been 4 calls to merge following the re-opening. dream Focus' keep will certainly be discarded, and JClemens is not as bad but still just a ] jingle. ] (]) 14:30, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
	::::::im sorry i meant i see only 2 delete votes, yours and the person from the original discussion. and i see that you called someone pathetic. this does not seem constructive, and you probably shouldnt say whose votes count and whose dont since you are involved and this is not the place to discuss that anyway. ] (]) 15:01, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
	:::::::I called the ''response'' pathetic, not the ''user''. When said user essentially lies about the rationale I used for my deletion opinion, I find the term more than fitting. ] (]) 15:07, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
	::::::::I have stricken the term, so we can avoid going down side-tangents, though. ] (]) 16:06, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
	* i have a question if someone put a link to this afd under the discussion under the main merge discussion page would that be canvassing? ] (]) 14:20, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
	:No, just a link that says "this article has been proposed for deletion. The deletion discussion is here" is fine. Just don't say anything else. ] (]) 15:19, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
	::well i mean because the discussion for the merge is actually on a different articles talk page and i think the people opposed to the merge might not be watching the page but were in the original discussion. ] (]) 15:23, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
	*Getting back to the original point here, it's clear that the speedy closure of this debate was a move not supported by consensus. I feel it is important that the message be sent to Colonel Warden than this sort of thing is not acceptable and that he acknowledge consensus is against it. We don't all have to agree here, but we do need to be able to acknowledge and abide by consensus even if we happen to disagree with it. This problem goes beyond just this one afd closure, the Colonel has been issuing a lot of orders lately. Policies are not meant to be used as instruments of war to silence ones opponents. Indeed, we should not even be thinking of one another as opponents as that creates the type of ] that has a tendency to crop when someone is overly confrontational and bossy with other users and makes broad declarations that seem to indicate that their interpretation of policy is the only valid one. ] (]) 18:02, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
	::You might be better of looking at your own conduct first and making an effort to be more collegial. Unless youre trying to make folk laff at the idea youre a worthy foe for someone like the Colonel, your inflammatory language - - is only going to escalate matters especially following your and crude response to the Colonels policy based keep vote. ] (]) 19:18, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
	:::"Worthy foe?" Whose trying to make who laugh here? I don't want to be anyone's foe, that's the whole point. I don't wish to take orders from the Colonel and it's important that people be willing to acknowledge when consensus does not support their position, something I am willing to do, and as we can see here it is not something the Colonel is willing to do in this case. I have no interest in forming an adversarial relationship with the Colonel, but when someone shows up at an afd and implies you are a moron and they are here to correct your stupidity with their superior policy knowledge, it does tend to rub one the wrong way. That he now appears to be collecting evidence to support his view of how great and wise he is tends to support the view that he is digging in his heels and preparing to fight rather than being willing to acknowledge consensus is against him. ] (]) 20:23, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
	::::i think feyd has a point. originally i thought colonel was out of line but now that i see how the people who disagree with him act like in their example of beeblebrox's behavior to the colonel, or tarc's behavior in general and to me personally here saying to mind my own business in the afd discussion i wonder if colonels actions were the result of weeks of frustration with people. maybe he did not know the right way to deal with the situation. ] (]) 21:51, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
	::Agreed, Beeblebrox. Though I did vote to keep the article the early close was completely out of line and there will be consequences if it happens again. Enough is enough. ] - <b><FONT COLOR="#FF0000">St</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FF5500">ar</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FF8000">bli</FONT><FONT COLOR="#FFC000">nd</FONT></b> 22:40, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
	:::I actually came to the conclusion that this was getting too personal and have buried the hatchet with Colonel Warden. Hopefully we've all learned something here. ] (]) 23:13, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
	{{collapse bottom}}
	=== To collapse or not to collapse ===
	Always a pleasure to see someone from the same wikiproject, involved in the discussion coming along to bury any talk about their compatriot. Even better when they don't sign their name so we have to dig through the history to find out who did it.--] (]) 00:41, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	:You'll note that Bali Ultimate originally undid the close, Snottywong marked the thread resolved, and multiple people including me admonished the editor (at his talk page or here) for his action. You want to heap some more abuse on Colonel Warden? Think that will help the project? Then by all means revert the hatting and go for it, if it'll make you feel better. ] (]) 06:31, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	::Yes, and you'll note that you voted keep on the article, participate in the same wikiproject that colonel warden does, which has been brought up in the deletion discussion, and hatted this without signing your name. I can't see any reason for hatting it in the first place, threads are left up for 24 hours for a reason. So all time zones can participate in the discussion.I made a comment before I crashed, only to awaken and find it locked up and hatted. This rush to try and bury threads and prevent discussion is getting out of hand, especially by heavily involved editors.--] (]) 09:06, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	:::While I fundamentally disagree with clemens on...oh, everything...I'm still a bit of an optimist when it comes to admins and their tools. This discussion had devolved into general bitching (i.e. "worthy foe". lulz) and really did need to have a pillow stuffed over its face. So to speak. ] (]) 15:54, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	::::He didn't use any admin tools or abilities when hatting the discussion. Any user could have done that, and routinely non-admins do throw up resolved tags, or put archive hats, or shrink discussions here as non-involved parties without any kind of conflict of interest. While certain parties may have degenerated, they could have been asked to step back and let other editors who may have had something to add do so.--] (]) 16:01, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	:::::Yea, but what else were we going to get out of this? Warden screwed up, again, and got reverted. The AfD rumbles on. If you wanna propose sanctions for him for doing this then I'd toss in a cheerful support there, but it should really begin in a fresh discussion. ] (]) 16:06, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	::::::We already had a fine section on him in which sanctions could have been proposed if they were needed. Why start moving things around to other sections? we almost always keep things related and if a new section had been started its almost certain someone would have ended up merging it into this section anyway. Related sections are almost always merged on here.--] (]) 00:29, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
	:::::(ec) What additional outcome do you want to see, that was inappropriately cut short by my collapsing the section? I didn't see any additional positive outcome, hence I collapsed it. If I'm wrong, tell me what I'm overlooking, revert the collapse, and continue on with the discussion. If, on the other hand, you just want to complain about something, then don't let my sincere efforts to be responsive to criticism get in the way of your efforts at emotional fulfillment. ] (]) 16:08, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	::::::I have to agree with Jclemens here. I marked the thread "Resolved" a mere 18 minutes after I started it, because the issue had been resolved by an uninvoled editor. Yet here we are, still discussing it nearly 40 hours later. I agree that many of Colonel Warden's editing patterns are disturbing, but unless you're going to start an RFC/U on it (which I would also support) there is nothing further that is going to be accomplished here besides plain old bitching. ]&nbsp;<sup><small>]</small></sup> 17:25, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	:::::::RFC/U is a wasteland of pointlessness. Let's all spend a month or more in a non-binding situation in which the subject of the RFC/U is under no obligation to reply.--] (]) 00:29, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
	::::::You're the one who performed the action. I haven't seen you make a case for why this needed to be collapsed in the first place, or why you needed to be the one to do it. You wrote a little summary, but it's hardly grounds for collapsing, let alone even hatting. "sufficient" is a very subjective observation, and the community has already agreed that discussions should be given 24 hours before we get rid of them unless there are some extreme circumstances, and this was hardly a very long conversation at that point. It's possible that sanctions could have been suggested but the discussion has been derailed now. in the future I'd recommend you only collapse discussions which truly need it and not ones in which you're heavily involved where it could look like you're trying to cover up for someone in your camp.--] (]) 00:29, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
			9. If this is considered “normal” behavior by administrators, well, then after 13 years of editing, I’m out of here. I can not and I will not have a hobby as a volunteer editor in a place where I feel unsafe and harassed, especially from a single-purpose editor with a long history of such behavior – no matter if their tagging or deletions are “correct.”
	== ] and lack of communication ==
			] (]) 20:56, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:I'm not going to respond point by point here, but I don't think the uncivil interactions with you are "normal" behavior. The issue is that Iruka was already blocked for that conduct and I still don't see how the pages Iruka created in his userspace{{snd}}which did not mention you by name and which he did not notify you of{{snd}}are harassment. If Iruka starts being uncivil again or starts harassing people, I'll be the first to indef him. ] (]/]) 22:55, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
	This user does controversial ] to film articles everyday without leaving an edit summary. There’s a lot of good edits and there’s some that go against the ]. The problem is that the user has been given ] every month since they signed up in July of this year to use an edit summary, and has not given a single response or sign of acknowledgement. We would like to communicate with this user, but it seems impossible. I think this is a clear case of ] and ]. What should be done about this in order to encourage collaborate editing? <span style="solid;background:#5D8AA8; border-radius: 8px; -moz-border-radius: 8px; font-family: Segoe Print">''']&nbsp;]'''</span> 05:13, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
			::The issue seems to be that the behavior Netherzone mentions has been experience by ''multiple other users''. This appears to be a pattern of inappropriate behavior spread out over quite some time. And quite honestly, the "laboratory" really does strike me as creepy behavior intended to needle other editors. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 17:57, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::The only two editors I have seen complain about stalking are Netherzone and Peterspeterson. I've asked multiple times for evidence that Iruka's file deletion nominations are largely incorrect, but the only evidence provided thus far have been files that other admins have seen fit to delete and contested FFD discussions. In my view, this complaint seems largely based on vibes and conduct preceding the block. ] (]/]) 18:04, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			* Having been pinged to this, my experience and another thread I saw suggests to me that the user really wants to delete things - not just that they are being gnomish in the area of deletion for the benefit of Misplaced Pages, no, that they actively want to delete stuff and be uncivil to those who do not share this philosophy. In this way, they seem to mass search for anything that could have a valid reason to delete, even if another another option is better or, as in what drew my attention, even if they have to make up some reason why a file meets deletion rationale when it doesn’t. That is another issue: while their deletion noms may be generally correct because they are seeking out files with issues, their tagging of files that only need reduction to be deleted, their tagging of Commons-eligible files, and their bizarre suggestion to purchase an iage license as proof of owenership, strike me as someone who does not understand Misplaced Pages or Commons policy very well and does not care if understanding will get in the way of their tagging g. ULtimately, the poor tags that may not get chance to be corrected, and rejectiong collaboratoon, negate any positive of being the first person to tag some bad files and thus make the user’s contributions in deletion a net negative for WP. I am struggling just to type this on mobile so can’t or provide diffs atm. ] (]) 12:22, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			I was pinged above by {{u|Drmies}}. I'm not going to read this whole case. I'll briefly say that my main interaction with Iruka13 was at {{section link|Misplaced Pages:Files_for_discussion/2024_November_28#File:Backboard_shattering.jpeg}}. I'm not an FFD regular, but I get the sense that these arguments they used were not mainstream:
	:Just a side note, and this may be part of the problem, is that there was, especially in the early going, very little actual communication with this user. The first dozen or so contacts consist solely of templated warnings, and the bulk of the page (i'd estimate 90% of it) is nothing but substed warning templates. Any actual '''human contact''' is really buried there. Just to stretch AGF a bit, and take the side of the accused, if I had gotten what looked like a series of automated messages the first 10 times the "you have messages" bar showed up, I may not understand that '''real people''' are trying to communicate with me. The ] templates certainly don't look like a real person trying to talk to someone, and for someone unfamiliar with Misplaced Pages, it could just look like some automated process which is easy to ignore. He may be resisting communication because he legitimately doesn't know anyone is trying to actually discuss things with him. This is where the UWT templates can go wrong, especially in light of ]. I am not saying this is necessarily the case with this user, just that it is one possibility besides the idea that he is willfully ignoring you just to be a dick. --]''''']''''' 05:29, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
			*Telling the uploader to buy the non-free image themselves and donating it for free.
			*Using AI/3D editors as free replacements.
			Those did not gain consensus at that FFD. If they are continuing these arguments, and have not gained community support, it would be disruptive and a ] might be reasonable. ] is a guideline, so its hard to gauge what part of their communication can be attributed to English not being their primary language and perhaps lacking the gentleness and politeness that are common in some English-speaking cultures, versus what's an actual harassing, wikilawyering tone. For example, they said: {{tq|And of course we can't buy the rights to the photo. We have to steal it.|q=yes}} Later, they claimed: {{tq|I decided here, in case the discussion is closed by , to buy the rights to the photo.|q=yes}} But they should also become aware of others' reactions as well, and take measures to adjust.—] (]) 12:28, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			:The shattered backboard file was discussed and the consensus was to keep it; so, FFD seems to have worked as it's intended to work. For reference, two others !voted to delete the file in that FFD; so, that means at least two others agreed with Iruka13's assessment. Iruka13 might have a hard time expressing themselves in English if that's not their first language, and some of their arguments might be perplexing: personally, I wouldn't try the "buy the rights and donate the image" line of argument; however, the question here with respect tagging/nominateing files for deletion is (at least in my opinion) not whether Iruka13 is being a nuisance, but rather whether they're wrong so much more than they're right to the point that being that being wrong is causing things to seriously breakdown. The behavioral and poor communication issues and probably need to be addressed, but those things aren't limited to files; if those things are the real problem, then a t-ban/restriction related to files makes little sense to me. I don't see their assessment of files with respect to relevant policies as being perfect, but I also don't see it as being as bad as some posting above are claiming. -- ] (]) 21:31, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			== User:Citation bot won't stop adding incorrect dates to articles ==
			] keeps adding incorrect dates to articles. I have counted that they have done it to 146 references across 8 articles. I posted a comment on ], however they readded the 26 dates I removed in addition to the another 120 incorrect dates after I posted the notice on the talk page. This behaviour is chronic and intractable. Another 34 were added by someone else, removed by me and but then Citation bot readded them.
	::I take your point, but he has never communicated on any talk page. I'll leave him a personal message and if he doesn't respond, block him. Hopefully one of those will do the trick. ] (]) 05:39, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
	:::He makes a lot of good edits (template changes and other tidying up) bundled together with other edits that are not helpful, and sometimes make no sense. Rather than making one edit at a time, he makes several all at once, and offers no explanation for his actions. The templating did get out of control, and I am one of the culprits. But, when no response was forthcoming, I kept trying to prod him into a response. Obviously, this did not work. Hopefully, Doug's message might. ---<font face="Georgia">''']'''<sub>'']''</sub></font> 14:46, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
			Diffs:
	::Ok, fine, if that's how you're going to play it, I'll add edit summaries if it'll make you people shut up. ] (]) 11:35, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
			* https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=7th_Parliament_of_Ontario&curid=11501903&diff=1269371926&oldid=1269300288
	Will you add a side of civility to go with it? The request that you use edit summaries is not based on a whim, but on sound and well thought out policy that makes perfect sense. ] <sub>]</sub> 21:10, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
			* https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Hepburn_ministry&curid=78528489&diff=1269371606&oldid=1268421348 (These dates were originally added by someone else, removed by me, and readded by Citation bot)
	:I've a better idea: forget the edit summaries and cease editing altogether. If you are going to respond to this rather simple request with the kind and level of incivility you have shown above, we might well be better off without your assistance. If, on the other hand, you want to continue editing you '''will''' do so with a modicum of respect toward your fellow editors. I certainly believe that we have extended such respect to you. ---<font face="Georgia">''']'''<sub>'']''</sub></font> 01:38, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
			* https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=5th_Parliament_of_Ontario&curid=9911824&diff=1269374626&oldid=1268656609
	::Well that wasn't the response I was expecting (at least we got one), but it shows he's not willing to work with others. <span style="solid;background:#5D8AA8; border-radius: 8px; -moz-border-radius: 8px; font-family: Segoe Print">''']&nbsp;]'''</span> 04:25, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
			* https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Eves_ministry&curid=78284361&diff=1269377523&oldid=1269310383
	. It goes beyond simple lack of edit summaries and shows a little ] and ] problems I guess. ] <sub>]</sub> 13:45, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
			* https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=2nd_Parliament_of_Ontario&curid=5152009&diff=1269388366&oldid=1268657559
			* https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=6th_Parliament_of_Ontario&curid=11117778&diff=1269389565&oldid=1269066036
			* https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=1st_Parliament_of_Ontario&curid=1184147&diff=1269390737&oldid=1268415078 (These dates were originally added by someone else, removed by me, and readded by Citation bot)
			* https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=4th_Parliament_of_Ontario&diff=prev&oldid=1269345172
			* https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Eves_ministry&diff=prev&oldid=1258325773 <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 14:40, 14 January 2025 (UTC)</small> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
			::Citation '''bot''' is an automated process, and not a human. ]<sub>]</sub><sup>]</sup> 14:45, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Yes, but that doesn't make it infallible. ] (]) 14:51, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Fair, I'm pointing that out because the report makes it come off as disruptive behavior from a user not heeding to talk page warnings. Either way I'll step back, as I was just noting that. ]<sub>]</sub><sup>]</sup> 14:54, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:You can add this to the page in question – <nowiki>{{bots|deny=Citation bot}}</nowiki> – or you can add this to a specific citation – <nowiki>{{cite web <!-- Citation bot bypass--> |last=Smith |first=John |year=2018 |...}}</nowiki> – to keep the bot away. See -- ].]] 16:09, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::I have gone through the 8 articles in question and added the suggested template. I also found out since posting the notice that ] did the behaviour again with another 2 citations on ], see https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Ludlow_Massacre&diff=prev&oldid=1269411373. I also added the template to that article as well. But this is a problem, but it is very clear that articles aren't being proactively templated, nor should they have to be. ] (]) 16:29, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			: Citation Bot is an automated script that just does what people tell it to do. Who invoked the bot is in the edit summary. If someone repeatedly caused messes by invoking Citation Bot, explicitly refused to clean up those messes, and continued on over the objections of others, you'd have a case. But you'd have to show evidence of that in the form of a ]. ] (]) 16:22, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Citation bot is not a ], but rather an account. All users are accountable for the edits which they attach their names to, including bots. Here diffs showing certain dates added by citation bot were already added and removed:
			::* https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Hepburn_ministry&diff=prev&oldid=1268421348
			::* https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=1st_Parliament_of_Ontario&diff=prev&oldid=1268415078
			::"All ] apply to a bot account in the same way as to any other user account."
			::-] ] (]) 16:42, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::That's not relevant. You should be dealing with the ''person'' who is ''using'' the bot, not asking us just to sanction the bot itself. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 19:39, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Most of these seem to have been invoked by {{u|Abductive}}, and involve misinterpreting the date when a politician was first elected as a citation date. Abductive, can you comment? ] (]) 16:37, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Sure, I can answer in the abstract. I ran the bot on ]. It appears that one of those unreliable primary sources was incorrectly set up by a Canadian government employee {{rpa}}. Citation bot took the site at its word, and filled in the date as specified. Normally, Misplaced Pages editors file a bug report on Citation bot's talk page, and one of the maintainers will fix the problem (and usually make a special run of the bot to undo the damage). This takes something less than 100 hours, if I had to give an estimate. <span style="font-family: Cambria;"> ] (])</span> 17:53, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Hmm, I'm not sure you should be calling anyone a known alcoholic without a citation, but, anyway, thanks for your explanation. ] (]) 18:06, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:I have counted that Citation bot has added another 6 bad dates to 5 new articles:
			:*https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Shaari_Zedek_Synagogue&oldid=1269639133
			:*https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=13th_Regiment_Armory&diff=prev&oldid=1269640054
			:*https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Weeksville,_Brooklyn&diff=prev&oldid=1269639369
			:*https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Prospect_Plaza_Houses&diff=prev&oldid=1269638875
			:*https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Albert_Gurule&diff=prev&oldid=1269638493
			:Current count: 14 articles, 154 bad dates.
			:These edits were suggested by the following user:
			:*]
			:] (]) 17:51, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Found another bad date in another article:
			::*https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Henri_de_Toulouse-Lautrec&diff=prev&oldid=1269643198 suggested by ]
			::Total count: 15 articles, 155 bad dates. ] (]) 18:06, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Found another bad date in another article:
			:::*https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Yusuf_Zuayyin&diff=prev&oldid=1269657597 (Nothing to support January reference)
			:::Suggested by user:
			:::*]
			:::Counts: 16 articles, 156 bad dates ] (]) 19:19, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::It seems to recall that this issue has been brought up before--nothing to do with Citation bot, more of a general librarian thing, and January is given as the default. It is best to address these issues more generally rather than finding more examples which may not even be incorrect. <span style="font-family: Cambria;"> ] (])</span> 19:30, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::] is litterally behind the diff in question. How can you say this has, "nothing to do with Citation bot". ] (]) 19:39, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::Because it is not necessarily an error. <span style="font-family: Cambria;"> ] (])</span> 19:44, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::It is still about Citation bot. ] (]) 19:48, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Found another bad date in another article. This one is really bad, since the right date was literally in the URL. I also have no idea how the bot got a date from a dead URL either. https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Strange_Little_Birds&diff=prev&oldid=1269648525, suggested by ]. ] (]) 19:34, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::That source appears to be a dead website. There is no way to check the actual date in the metadata. (I am told that Citation bot checks the metadata of the source website.) <span style="font-family: Cambria;"> ] (])</span> 19:44, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			You have given the operators ] to reply to you. This is insanely premature for an issue with one website (ola.org). &#32;<span style="font-variant:small-caps; whitespace:nowrap;">] {] · ] · ] · ]}</span> 16:56, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:It is also an issue with tps.cr.nps.gov. (https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Ludlow_Massacre&diff=prev&oldid=1269411373) 9 Articles, 148 errors after I posted on the talk page. If a user continues the same disruptive behaviour, especially to the extent Citation bot has, after a notice on their talk page, what else can I do? ] (]) 17:04, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			*Editors who active bots are expected to check the results to see if they are accurate, as they are often not. You can the first time the bot was run on the page, and the editor noticed the wrong dates and removed them, so it's unclear why Abductive thought it was a good idea to activate the bot on the same page and make the same mistakes, and then not check the bots edits.]] 17:30, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::With one request I ran the bot on all 858 pages in the ]. This is a maintenance category, and one should expect issues to arise sometimes. <span style="font-family: Cambria;"> ] (])</span> 17:56, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Did you check all 858 diffs personally, or even spot-check them? You are responsible for the bot edits you initiate and should not just run the bot blindly assuming it will be accurate. —] (]) 18:08, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Sure, I spot check sometimes. The work Citation bot does is indispensable, and more resources should be allocated to it. Until that happens, editors need to pitch in, remove faulty primary sources, make corrections, and file bug reports. <span style="font-family: Cambria;"> ] (])</span> 18:21, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::Citation bot is not indispensable, neither are editors. Start checking your edits after using this bot, if that means you have to run smaller batches, then do that.]] 18:49, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::"All users directing a bot must have the required skill and knowledge to ensure their actions are within community consensus."
			:::::-]
			:::::] is the relevant consensus in this case, and it wasn't followed. Don't use bots which you cannot or will not ensure they follow consensus. Thanks. ] (]) 18:54, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::It would be best if the bad source was removed, per ] and ]. There is a very strong consensus that Citation bot is an important tool used to build the Encyclopedia, despite its occasional errors. Every now and then, users such as yourself get upset, but that is not constructive. <span style="font-family: Cambria;"> ] (])</span> 19:04, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::I find your attitude a little cavalier. You admit up above that your edits caused damage, bu then instead of volunteering to help clean up the mess you made, you think other editors should file reports, let the maintainers of the bot fix the issue, and then run the bot again and hope like hell it is accurate. How about just committing to cleaning up your mistakes.]] 19:10, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::I didn't say I wouldn't remove the bad source. <span style="font-family: Cambria;"> ] (])</span> 19:16, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::Can you quote the part of ] which you believe would justify the removal of the source in question in e.g. ? ] (]) 21:56, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::Re: "editors need to pitch in, remove faulty primary sources, make corrections, and file bug reports": No. YOU need to find and make the corrections rather than pushing the work off to other editors, because you are the one causing the work to need doing. When you make work for other editors, you are impeding the progress of the encyclopedia by taking away their time from other more useful contributions. —] (]) 19:12, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::That's what editors do. Again, I didn't say I wouldn't remove the bad source. But this ANI report was complaining about ], not ]. <span style="font-family: Cambria;"> ] (])</span> 19:16, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::While the original report was poorly aimed, this is ultimately a report about ''your'' use of the bot. Would be best to treat it that way. — <b>]:<sup>]</sup></b> 19:40, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::You are the one who directed Citation bot to undertake the majority of the conduct described in the notice. You've been templated. Your conduct is being discussed here, as well as the conduct of Citation bot. The message for you is not to remove references from articles with onesource tags or sections of articles with onesource tags as is the case for the 8 articles you directed the bot to change, but rather to not direct bots to breach consensus. ] (]) 19:43, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::] specifically says {{tq|The contributions of a bot account remain the responsibility of its operator, whose account must be prominently identifiable on its user page. '''In particular, the bot operator is responsible for the repair of any damage caused by a bot which operates incorrectly. All policies apply to a bot account in the same way as to any other user account.''' Bot accounts are considered alternative accounts of their operator. To ensure compliance with WP:BOTCOMM, IP editors wishing to operate a bot must first register an account before operating a bot}}. ]<sub>]</sub><sup>]</sup> 19:51, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::Check my most recent edits. It seems to me that this issue is now resolved. <span style="font-family: Cambria;"> ] (])</span> 19:54, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::This looks like a claim that you went back and fixed all the mess you made, but that was not the case. For instance, you had not fixed the first diff, on the 7th Parliament. I did it, after you added this comment. You still haven't fixed the one on the 5th Parliament. I haven't checked the others but I suspect more of your mess is still there. —] (]) 06:21, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::5th Parliament of Ontario was fixed before I got there, by somebody adding the deny template. I suspect that you, due to your general frustrations with Citation bot, see a chance to effect change here. Best to work on those other concerns directly. <span style="font-family: Cambria;"> ] (])</span> 18:44, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::::{{tqq|I suspect that you, due to your general frustrations with Citation bot, see a chance to effect change here. Best to work on those other concerns directly.}} I don't know about you but this sounds pretty close to ] to me... - ] <sub>]</sub> 22:19, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::::5th Parliament was NOT fixed before you got there. Someone added the deny template but did not undo the bot mistakes on the article. Abductive, as the editor responsible for those mistakes, please go through and undo them.
			::::::::::::As for "your general frustration with citation bot", please do not make ad hominem and incorrect assumptions about other editors' beliefs. In fact I think citation bot, when properly supervised, is very useful. 99% of the time it does the right thing, and many references in many of our articles are better because of it. But when it is doing the wrong thing 1% of the time, very many times per second, it can very quickly spread mistakes across the encyclopedia. That is why it needs to be properly supervised. If I am exhibiting any frustration here, it is not with the bot, but with the people who invoke it but do not properly supervise it and will not take responsibility for the problems they cause. —] (]) 23:15, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::I see what happened there. A user added the deny template but didn't undo the bot's edit. This makes it impossible for the bot to go back through after it has been updated and correct the errors. <span style="font-family: Cambria;"> ] (])</span> 04:09, 16 January 2025 (UTC) <small>moved down from the middle of the above comment (]). &ndash; ] (]) (]) 17:03, 19 January 2025 (UTC)</small>
			::::::::::::::So fix them manually. You do know how to edit without using a bot, right??]] 04:27, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::I disagree with the issue being resolved: https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#c-Legend_of_14-20250115180600-Legend_of_14-20250115175100. ] (]) 19:10, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::Unsupervised bot and script use has ]. If anyone wants to pitch in and help fix ].... ] (]) 22:03, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::We're into ]. Yes, damage has persisted from 2022. ] (]) 00:34, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{pb}}I think the problem of mass-bot usage without checking results is much bigger than just this user and bot. I filed a similar complaint to {{u|Whoop whoop pull up}} two weeks ago () about mass-bot usage that was f***ing up, after which WWPU shirked their responsibility to check the results, pushed ''me'' to file a report about the bot, and said the bot owners would fix it (I don't believe that)—meanwhile they have ''continued'' to launch bot batches from top-level Categories affecting thousands of articles. Another user lodged a similar complaint to WWPU yesterday at {{Section link|User talk:Whoop whoop pull up|Checking IABot runs}}. <span style="text-shadow:#000 0em 0em 1em">]</span> 18:17, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:So, what we seem to have here is that bot writers blame things on the people who invoke their bots, but that the person invoking it seems to pass the buck to the bot. ''Both'' should take reponsibility, not, as is the case here ''neither''. Ever since the early days of Misplaced Pages we mere mortals seem to have had to worship at the altar of the infallible bot. ] (]) 20:05, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:] is unclear about who counts as the "operator" of a bot available for use by any user through a public-facing interface; it appears to have been written with the assumption that the person who directs a bot to run will only ever be the same person who's developing and maintaining it.
			:* Possibility 1: the bot's maintainer counts as the operator. Evidence in support:
			:** ] says, in part, "The contributions of a bot account remain the responsibility of its operator, '''whose account must be prominently identifiable on its user page'''" (emphasis added), implying that who counts as the operator is the person(s) identified on its userpage (i.e., the user, or team thereof, who develop and maintain the bot).
			:** BOTACC also says "Bot accounts are considered alternative accounts of their operator". If the bot's operator was the person directing it to run on one or more pages, then, for publicly-accessible bots, this would represent a shared account in violation of ]. Now, ROLE ''does'' have a bot exception ("Role account exceptions can be made for approved bots with multiple '''managers'''", emphasis added), but the way that exception's worded seems to pretty-clearly imply that this's meant to apply to bots that're ''developed and maintained'' by a team of people (rather than ones that can be ''used'' by multiple people).
			:** Bots such as InternetArchiveBot and Citation bot were developed, and approved, with functionality allowing virtually any user to launch batch runs large enough (up to 5,000 pages at a time for IABot, with admins getting to run batches of up to ''50,000'' pages, and up to 3,850 pages at a time for Citation bot) to make it completely impossible for a human user to manually check each individual edit made by one of these bots (especially given that these bots run far faster than any human user). If one of these bots has a bug which causes it to make erroneous edits to a large number of pages, the ''only'' people with the capability to correct this are the bot's maintainers, who can do so by patching the bot's bug and rerunning it over the previous batches to clean up its own prior mess. Thus, if the bot's operator was intended to refer to any user who runs the bot, this would mean that these bots were approved ''despite having functionality that would, if used, make compliance with BOTACC's terms impossible''; in contrast, if this was meant to refer to the users who develop and maintain the bot, then these bots' publicly-accessible large-batch functionality would be perfectly fine as far as BOTACC's concerned. If we operate (no pun intended) under the assumption that the people who approved these bots were not deliberately disregarding BOTACC, then the fact that they ''were, in fact, approved'' implies that this approval was given with the understanding that the people who would count as the bot's operator(s) would be its developers and maintainers, not the users running it via its public interface.
			:** ] seems to imply that inquiries and complaints should be handled on the bot's talk page (either locally or on another Wikimedia project accessible through unified login), which makes rather more sense if the person responsible for the bot is intended to be its developer/maintainer, rather than whatever user directs the bot to run on a particular page.
			:** ] says, in part, "In order for a bot to be approved, its operator should demonstrate that it: ''''", again implying that the operator in question is meant to refer to the bot's developer (the one with the power to actually make the bot demonstrate those things), rather than its end user.
			:** ] provides a list of features that bot operators may be encouraged to implement; these features are universally ones that only a bot's developers and maintainers have the ability to implement, implying that these people (rather than the end users who run these bots) are the operators referred to.
			:* Possibility 2: anyone who uses the bot's public interface to run the bot on one or more pages counts as the operator. Evidence in support:
			:** ] says, in part, "Competence: All users directing a bot must have the required skill and knowledge to ensure their actions are within community consensus", seeming to place the onus for edits made using bots such as IABot and Citation bot on the users who direct the bots to make these edits (although this would then also seem to imply that the above-mentioned large-batch functionality of these bots was approved ''despite'' the fact that this would make compliance with this provision impossible, as the skill required for a human end user to be able to ensure that would include superhuman speed and endurance).
			:] <sup>] 🏳️‍⚧️ ]</sup> 20:17, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Based on what you provided, operators in Bot policy refers to maintainers, however the part about competence creates an obligation any user that directs a bot. I hope this clears up any uncertainty about the Bot policy.
			::"Both should take reponsibility"
			::-] at https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#c-Phil_Bridger-20250115200500-Grorp-20250115181700 ] (]) 20:25, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Then why were the bots approved with functionality the use of which no human director of the bot would be capable of manually checking? ] <sup>] 🏳️‍⚧️ ]</sup> 21:28, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::I was not involved in the approval process, so I can't say. This discussion is not about the bot approval process in general, please direct your inquiries elsewhere.
			::::Policy is very clear, '''don't direct bots in a way which you cannot ensure their actions are within community consensus.''' ] (]) 21:36, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::: WWPU: The 'operator' of a bot is the one who invokes it. That anyone, owner, or concensus has made it possible for a bot to be launched to run wild through thousands of Misplaced Pages article doesn't diminish or dilute the primary axiom of an editor being responsible for edits one makes or causes. {{pb}}These bots can only read from the underlying code of the webpages they are checking against. Picking up wrong dates, following hard-coded redirects to 404 error pages, and other oddities is par for the course... for which I don't blame the bot or the bot-maintainer. When I run such bots, I check every change the bot makes. <span style="text-shadow:#000 0em 0em 1em">]</span> 00:40, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::Running a bot on so many pages that it's virtually inevitable there will be a mistake doesn't absolve an editor of responsibility for that mistake. ] (]) 00:37, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::Or, as ] puts it: {{tq|Human editors are expected to pay attention to the edits they make, and ensure that they do not sacrifice quality in the pursuit of speed or quantity. For the purpose of dispute resolution, it is irrelevant whether high-speed or large-scale edits that a) are contrary to consensus or b) cause errors an attentive human would not make are actually being performed by a bot, by a human assisted by a script, or even by a human without any programmatic assistance. No matter the method, the disruptive editing must stop or the user may end up blocked.}} ] (]) 02:12, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Citation bot has not been {{tqq|approved with functionality the use of which no human director of the bot would be capable of manually checking}}. Its approved BRFAs are listed with summaries at {{slink|User:Citation bot|Bot approval}}. None of these covers "batching Citation bot against multi-hundred-member maintenance categories", which is functionality added outside the official approval channel.{{pb}}But whether the functionality has consensus is not as relevant as operator diligence.{{pb}}If you can't review your runs, don't perform the runs. ] (]) 17:03, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			::You are responsible for every edit you make, regardless of whether it is manually or by bot. If you don't want to check the results after using a bot, then stop using the bot.]] 20:55, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::☝🏽{{Pb}}It's unclear what value is added by blindly running an automated script against maintenance categories with multiple hundreds of members, and not checking the edits you've caused to see if you've introduced errors.{{pb}}I'm not sure exactly what the solution is here: repeatedly exhorting Citation bot's most QA-averse operators (two of whom are present in this thread) to review their edits doesn't seem to have had an effect.{{pb}}Citation bot – as I always hasten to mention – does a lot of good work. It also edits at such a high volume that it's impossible for non-operators to keep up with its non-negligible error rate. It also operates largely outside the BRFA structure, performing many tasks the maintainers have kindly added upon suggestion, which may or may not have community consensus.{{pb}}Rate-limiting Citation bot runs sounds like a great solution, but I'm not able to estimate the development costs of such a feature, and not sure if the maintainers would be willing to code it up. Implementing community-accessible per-task toggles to disable particular types of edits pending bugfixes— this may also be a possibility, but again dependent on maintainer interest.{{pb}}I'm not convinced this is necessarily the best venue for this discussion (unless a subsection arises proposing sanctions against {{u|Abductive}} or others for irresponsible bot operation, which I don't intend to initiate), but it's probably time for a centralised discussion ''somewhere'' specifically related to Citation bot, its remit, and its operation. Courtesy ping {{u|AManWithNoPlan}}, the script's most diligent maintainer, whom I don't see pinged here yet. ] (]) 02:17, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::: I second the above suggestions. I would like to see these bots limited to 1 article at a time (or a few hand-typed article titltes), and disallow running huge batches (especially by category) except with specific user permissions (given only to those with a history of running the bots ''and'' checking the results.<span style="text-shadow:#000 0em 0em 1em">]</span> 03:25, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::The easiest rate limit implementations I can imagine would be requiring some special permission for batching Citation bot over entire categories, or limiting non-privileged operators to some fixed number of Citation bot activations in some timeframe. Either would require some differentiation between user access levels, and a subroutine to identify the suggestor at runtime (which sometimes doesn't happen even by the edit summary).{{pb}}However, I'm not familiar with any of the codebase, so I'm not sure how much work anything like this would require, and I'm sure the script's maintainers would prefer to spend their time improving Citation bot's operation rather than securing it from irresponsible operators.{{pb}}Maybe we really should take a harder look at community sanctions for high-volume operators with a background of persistently leaving their edits unreviewed. While script misuse can easily cause widespread damage, and it's preferable to have some level of control within the software, at root the problem is the behaviour of those who misuse the script, publishing without review. The maintainers shouldn't necessarily be burdened with the work of protecting their tool from misuse.{{pb}}Still traumatised by (and lately working to clean up after) ReferenceExpander, ] (]) 16:48, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			::{{tq|" make it completely impossible for a human user to manually check each individual edit made by one of these bots"}} Going to chime in here as someone who went a bit IA bot crazy last month, in order to fix dead links within a certain neglected topic area. Generally speaking, AI bot doesn't run as crazy fast as you insinuate. Most edits on short articles are single dead link tags or archives added, which are very quick to check, in larger articles it naturally can be multiple citations tagged or changed, but this also takes more time to run (it's all proportionate). I'm also factoring in articles that are checked by the bot but remain unchanged, that is anywhere between 10-90% depending on when the bot last run, which usually gives you time to catch up reviewing. Case and point, if you are quick enough, you definitely can keep up with the bot, but you do have to do on the ball and very "tuned in" as I'd put it. Personally, after reviewing around a hundred or so edits, I realised it was pretty low-key problematic (occasionally reverting other users edits in error etc). Personally I found it easy to identify when AI bot was doing more bad than good, as the character count would be negative rather than positive, but this was generally running over stubs and starts than fully developed articles. I was otherwise spot checking the worst affected link rot articles, in order to retrospectively include archive to avoid further dead links, which I'd personally recommend as a great balance of keeping an eye on the automated edits and retrospectively adding archives where it'd clearly be useful as a preventative measure. Very occasionally did I find issues, much less than 1%, but this was also a different topic area than described above. Not sure if that's helpful comment, but I resent the idea that you can't keep up with a batch of 1,000+ articles (I find this personally insulting as someone who is more than capable, to be clear, even if it's unlikely I'd engage in that again). Personally, I also avoided going over this limit as it's a solid 4-6 hours stint of reviewing. Now to point out the obvious, if you are not capable of reviewing the bot in real-time due to competence issues or otherwise, than reduce your batch load. ] (]) 01:32, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			: The dates come from https://en.wikipedia.org/api/rest_v1/#/Citation/getCitation I have added that website to the list of bogus Zotero dates. ] (]) 16:46, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
	== Grundle Again ==
			::Thank you for your attention in this matter 🙏🏽 ] (]) 16:51, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			== A bizare editing war on the trotskyist organization list ==
	He's been very active today, reposting rejected stuff from long ago. Could someone clean out all the subpages at ]? I'm not sure how to even look at them, but he's retrieving from somewhere, and this is my first guess. ] (]) 05:32, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
			{{atop
	:I've gotten started, but its a sysiphian task, the list is here: There's probably 40 or 50 or so. I am going to bed soon, so if any other admin wants to take over, that's cool... --]''''']''''' 05:37, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
			| status = No action needed
	::There are some useful things in those subpages; it's not all rubbish. ] (]) 06:18, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
	:::Oh, its not that, taken in isolation, they are necessarily bad. It's that, in the hands of the long-since banned Grundle, they are being used to continue his disruption. --]''''']''''' 06:24, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
	::::Grundle2600's subpages: —] (]) 12:31, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
	::::: They're not very useful if they're being used disruptively by a community banned user. If someone wanted to make legitimate use of them they would have done it already. Misplaced Pages is not a webhost or online storage: delete the lot to help prevent the ongoing disruption. - ] ] 15:37, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
	::::::Retain the userboxes and talk page archives, but much of the rest appears to be aborted articles or userfied copies of deleted ones. Will this all have to head to MfD, or can an admin just can it unilaterally, given the snowball's chance in hell nature of the indef ever being lifted? ] (]) 15:45, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
	:::::::One of the pages caught my eye, and I sent it to MfD. Let's see if it can be dispatched without drama. --] (]) 16:38, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
	::::::::Do we really have to go through that? I mentioned his sub-page on Michelle Obama's arms here recently and an admin deep-sixed it. Here are a couple of others that can only be useful to Grundle's POV campaign ] and ]. The guy is banned and he's only here to disrupt. Take his toys away. --] (]) 23:08, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
	::::::::Oh, and ]. --] (]) 23:12, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
			| result = Permanent debate among permanent revolutionaries. —&nbsp;]&nbsp;] 23:58, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
	I doubt it'll make any difference, but anyway, all of User:Grundle2600's old ] subpages are now gone. ] <sup>]</sup> 09:02, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
			}}
	:What about ] and ]? --] (]) 16:51, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
			*{{pagelinks|List of Trotskyist organizations by country}}
			In the last 24 hours some strage editing war seem to have taking place on the following page trying to remove or change it's content:
	== Completely undiscussed controversial climate change move needs reverting ==
			https://en.m.wikipedia.org/List_of_Trotskyist_organizations_by_country ] (]) 19:47, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
	A less than a month old account that originally claimed to be a ] case and still has no obvious link to the user's previous identity has just moved ] to ] (yes, complete with the wrong capitalisation) without any prior discussion. To avoid a move war, can an uninvolved admin please move back so that a discussion at ] can be started cleanly. Thank you. ] ] 06:48, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
	:Done and move protection enabled. ] <small>(])</small> 06:56, 14 October 2010 (UTC)		:This looks like a content dispute. As ever, it should be addressed by reliable sources (which usually don't include social media sites) and talk page discussion. ] (]) 20:17, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
			::These edit wars occur fairly regularly on articles related to these groups as there is a lot of in-fighting and division among members, former members and interested parties especially regarding the lineage of Trotskyist and communist organizations. If you are concerned and it continues, you can open a report at ] and please notify the involved editors when you open complaints like this. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 21:54, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
	::Just for clarity, can you or someone provide a diff to the account's claim of cleanstart? Cheers, ] (]) 06:57, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
			:::Communist organisations taking chunks out of one another? Well, I never — ''']''' <sup>''(])''</sup> 22:01, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
	::: ] <small>(])</small> 07:03, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
	::::See new section below, which I have been preparing since I started this report. Off to a lecture now. ] ] 07:14, 14 October 2010 (UTC)		::::To be fair, there is nothing more insulting than being incorrectly called a Trotskyist. ] (]/]) 01:32, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::::Heh, and I was just thinking I'd seen this user's editing style before.... ] (]) 07:26, 14 October 2010 (UTC)		:::::Yes, this oddity appears to likely be Stalinist splinters trolling each other by adding their rivals to the list of Trotskyist groups. <sub>signed, </sub>] <sup>]</sup> 01:49, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:I don't know if this is really bizarre -- I'd say "Trotskyist organizations getting into petty internecine conflict" is about as predictable as, oh, someone already made this exact same comment. <b style="font-family:monospace;color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 06:42, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::<small>The disputes between ], The Judean People's Popular Front, The Campaign for a Free Galilee, and The Popular Front of Judea? ] (]) 08:32, 16 January 2025 (UTC)</small>
			{{abot}}
			== ] bad faith towards editors, misuse of tools ==
	:::No problem... See here****..I will stop editing this article if it really is such a issue due to me being a recent ], but I hope that the more experienced editors involved will fix this article's ] issues...--<span style="background:burlywood; color:red;font-size:small;;font-family:Arial;">]</span><span style="background:yellowgreen; color:white;font-size:small;;font-family:Arial;"> ]</span> 07:07, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
			*{{userlinks|PEPSI697}}
	::::As a relevant aside, I'm about to close the Climate Change ArbCom case (once I have breakfast) and will be posting the details later today. ] (]) 07:40, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
			I believe this editor has a history of assuming bad faith towards other editors and has been misusing tools designed to revert vandalism; their judgement has repeatedly been clouded by personal vendettas and feelings, which in my opinion is not appropriate for an editor to have, especially one with rollback rights.
	=== About the user ===
	After some additional research, here is some further reading:
	* ] – 13-15 September, ANI discusses what to do with the disruption caused by the Gniniv in cryptozoology area
	* (15 September)
	* (18 September)
	* ] – 28 September, user asks for CU to clear them from suspected connection with FellGleaming
	* ] – 1 October; user goes to an arbitrator's talk page for rubber stamping of their "clean start" ''after'' it came out that they had not notified anyone after disappearing while community action against them was discussed
	* ] – 4 October ANI discussion
	*
	*
	This seems to be a competence problem rather than bad faith, but something needs to be done. ] ] 07:14, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
			My history with this editor started on December 24 2024, when I left him (and another editor) {{Diff2|1264943166|a message}} for edit warring - he was getting close to three reverts, the other editor appeared to not be vandalizing the article (they were putting a formula in the lead, it was a chemistry article) so I simply encouraged them to talk it out - I did not know at that point that the other editor was a LTA. I did not intend this message to be bad faith either, shortly after I sent that message another person {{Diff2|1264946563|made a discussion on the talk page}} about the addition of the formula in the lead. Pepsi responded to and then removed the warning from his talk page, absolutely fine. Then, he leaves me {{Diff2|1264940021|this}} message, saying I did something to make him angry and that he expected an apology from me. I was really confused, it's bit weird and out of nowhere to demand an apology from someone, and I {{Diff2|1264940623|didn't understand what exactly was the issue}}, the warning of edit warring was not left in bad faith but an honest attempt to get two editors to discuss and reach a consensus. This was the first time I became aware of his assumption of bad faith and his problem with anger; nonetheless, I don't want drama so I {{Diff2|1265117356|wish him merry Christmas}}, he wishes me, everything is fine.
	:If certain types of editing are causing similar issues in other topics, then a topic ban is unlikely to do much good. Unless the Community is willing to put the user on probation (see ] for examples), or a mentorship thing (which is a timesink), I'm not sure anything short of a ban or indef block would be able to address such a situation. ] (]) 07:34, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
	::I would encourage this editor to take this opportunity to completely leave all controversial topics, or at least to return to his initial account. To Terra Novus, if you continue having problems like this with the new account, I think you'll quickly be banned, since you will be taking too much community time when people have to figure out what you're up to. If you want to keep trying to improve controversial topics, and you want a fair hearing, you should go back to your other account. Really, I would recommend getting out of contentious topics altogether, since candidly, you don't show a sensitivity to the types of things that will get you in trouble across the board. But for maximum leeway you should surely go back to your first account. Only if you are extremely confident that you can stay out of all controversial topics altogether with this account, as well as any areas in which you've previously edited, is there any remotely plausible chance that you will not be sanctioned under this new account, at least in my opinion. ] (]) 07:54, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
	::: ] is quite clear in its statement that editors who decide to place {{tl|retired}} on their original account and create a new account ''should not return to edit the articles/subjects that they previously edited'' as it could lead to ] issues. If the intent was to simply keep editing the same way, one cannot claim cleanstart. One can hold an ] for specific purposes, but at this point, the new account does not meet them. (]<span style="border:1px solid black;">'''&nbsp;]&nbsp;'''</span>]) 12:12, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
	:::::You are absolutely right, and as I said above I have stopped editing ] articles. If any one will take the time to look at my edit history as Terra Novus (After my cleanstart), they will see that I have adhered to the noncontentious topics policy in the articles I have chosen to edit. This was just a ignorant misstep on my part into a new subject that was too contentious. As I acted in good faith (and, to be honest, in ignorance of the move request policy) I hope that the community will understand my full adherence to Misplaced Pages's principles.--<span style="background:burlywood; color:red;font-size:small;;font-family:Arial;">]</span><span style="background:yellowgreen; color:white;font-size:small;;font-family:Arial;"> ]</span> 04:16, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
			Since then however, he has had incidents where he reverts my edit reverting vandalism/disruptive editing with the edit summary "No", and then reverts that edit saying "Sorry". I get making a from mistake time to time, but doing so repeatedly? I also don't really understand how he makes such mistakes, unless he immediately goes to the edit history of the page and undos the latest edit without even looking, but I digress. Examples of it happening to me: {{Diff2|1269540618|1}}, {{diff2|1268720318|2}}, {{diff2|1268521356|3}}, {{Diff2|1268313652|4}}, {{Diff2|1268308516|5}}, {{Diff2|1268121077|6}}, {{Diff2|1268119998|7}}, {{Diff2|1268118180|8}}, to name a few. It happens so frequently, I really believe this is just bad faith towards me and he is ]. It almost exclusively happens to me, which is why I doubt this is a mistake, but it has happened in few other instances; these are the other instances I could find, also happening to occur to just one editor ({{u|Augmented Seventh}}): {{diff2|1269323555|1}}, {{diff2|1269333853|2}}, {{diff2|1269126403|3}}. I have only looked at his past 1,500 edits, but I am sure there are many more examples; the most recent one is from today, January 15.
	== Unconstructive edits at the Soviet ministry articles ==
			I decided to make this incident report following an incident that happened today. 10 minutes after I left a level 1 warning on a user's talk page, Pepsi {{Diff2|1269543780|replaced}} my warning with their level 2 warning. I did not understand this change, given it was a potential ] violation as refactoring other people's comments; additionally, you typically add a warning below others if a user makes a disruptive edit again. Given my history with Pepsi, I wondered if this was a deliberate bad faith edit, so I decided to {{Diff2|1269546279|seek clarification}} as to why they did this on their talk page. In {{Diff2|1269548452|their response to me}}, they admit they are stressed and angry a lot of the time. I understand, it's absolutely fine and I get people have hobbies like editing to escape these sorts of things, but it clearly is a problem when your personal feelings affect your judgement of things. Despite their message assuring they will think about their edits more carefully, soon after they leave me {{Diff2|1269576325|this}} message on my talk page, which absolutely baffled me (note: they added words to their main comment in subsequent edits, see {{Diff2|1269577089|this}} edit for the final one to that first comment). Now, I'm fine with receiving constructive criticism and I don't have a problem with him clarifying my use of tools; personally, I used the rollback feature as the edit appears to be vandalism (calling the subject a con artist) and a BLP violation due to adding defamatory content. However, the subsequent comments were, in my opinion, bad faith and a deliberate attack due to me initially leaving them a message. They once again demand an apology from me - a bit weird, but okay. Then they continue by saying that my rollback rights could be revoked and ask if I "want" that. Huh? This message seemed to have a threatening aura and definitely did not seem like it was made in good faith. I respond and explain my reasoning, and they leave me {{Diff2|1269580448|this}} message telling me to "stop getting more angry", despite me only trying to clarify the issue. {{Diff2|1269580707|This}} edit from him clarifies that he is specifically angry at me.
	{{resolved|editor already warned, reported at AN3. ] (]) 22:27, 14 October 2010 (UTC)}}
	* {{Userlinks|Harrypotter}} he is creating two articldes on the same topic; the ] and the ], and all other commissariat and ministrial articles on the topic of the USSR. The organizations are the name, sources say so, these organizations were '''renamed'''. At the same time, the organisations' structure and its duties and responsibilities stayed the same after ther renaming process. Creating TWO articles ON THE SAME topic is ludicrous. Also he is copying material that i wrote on the ministry pages on the people's commissariat pages, so the pages become redundant.
			I truly have no clue why on Earth he has such bad faith towards me, and imo this is borderline harassment - consistently stalking my edits and leaving me such unfriendly messages. This user clearly has very poor judgement and can not be trusted with pending changes & rollback rights given how much they have elaborated on their anger issues and their judgement being clouded by these issues. There are several other examples of Pepsi misusing tools - {{diff2|1269549064|here}} they admit to reverting 12 edits, simply because ONE was unsourced - then they just tell the user who added all of it to restore their edits manually because he doesn't know how to do it. It's pretty obvious to just edit the latest revision of the page and remove the unsourced edit. It's also ironic for him to leave me such a threatening message of me "abusing" my rollback status when ] ] for using rollback to revert good faith or non-vandalism edits. He has a history of ] without carefully reading through. Thank you for your time for reading this and I hope this issue will be resolved. ]] 12:58, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
	:List of examples:
	:* see his talk page, he is unwilling to discuss a solution
	:* See the pages of the ] and ] revision history, he is creating articles which has copied material from the ministry articles' i wrote. See his recent edit on the ]. Sources say it was renamed, Soviet sources from the renaming process says it was ''reorganised'', I don't really give a dam about the reorganisation process seeing these organisation had very little effect on the basic structures on these ministries.
	:* and copies the text of the Ministry of Finance articles, he has done the same thing to the ] on several occasions. It may not be ''vandalism'', but it is REALLY ''unconstructive'' and thats the reason for why he should be blocked for 24 hours, because of his ''uconstructive edits''. If you do this, he might stop his ''unconstructive behavior''. --] (]) 13:24, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
	:Note that redirects already existed from the OLD name (commissariat) to the NEW name (ministry). What Harrypotter has done is copied the text from the ministry article into the redirect (without accreditation!), removing the redirect. This may simply be due to him not being particularly familiar with Misplaced Pages, but he ought to respond to explanations that this is not the way to do it. TIAYN has now restored the redirects, which is the right thing to do. As long as Harrypotter does not edit war over this, or try to do any others, there shouldn't be a problem. ] (]) 14:13, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
	:: Further, ] has warned him about copypasting, and I have advised that any new information he wishes to add needs to go in the existing article. ] (]) 14:17, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
	:::Harrypotter has been here since June 2005 and has made over 12,000 edits, so he should be rather familiar with how Misplaced Pages works by now... ] (]) 14:19, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
	::: I notice on his talkpage that another editor is arguing that the commissariats and the ministries should have separate articles . I have no comments as to whether that view is correct but I have left a note that it is the copypasta that is the significant problem - he needs to create the articles properly.] (]) 15:48, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
	:Soviet sources say ''reorganised''/''renamed'', modern scholarly sources say ''renamed'', this means, the People's Commissariats and Ministries are just the same, there is no need for two seperate articles covering the same topic, when the article in itself are very small and sources are already very ''scarce''. --] (]) 16:11, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
	:That is a content discussion for another place. And could you stop marking all your edits as minor please. If you have the 'mark all edits as minor' option turned on, could you turn it off. Thanks ] (]) 16:13, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
	::, the Soviet law say ], but never say they dissolved the Council of People's Commissars and created a new executive branch, known as the ]. It says ], and it says that for a reason. Yes, it is a content issue, but it is a serious one and when editiors act as ''unconstructive'' as he does, it is hard to improve the coverage of these ministries. --] (]) 16:17, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
	:::There are now good suggestions on Harrypotter's talkpage about where to discuss whether one or two articles are appropriate (especially as you appear to have merged two into one at some point). Harrypotter's faulty process in how he recreated the articles does not invalidate that need for discussion on the underlying content dispute. ] (]) 17:35, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
			:I would like to note that PEPSI697 has added a notice of his ASD and sensitivity on 30 July 2024, perhaps we should be a bit more careful in examining his conduct and any potential remedy. I hope PEPSI697 can help us propose a solution. ] (]) 14:41, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
	* Just a brief note to opine that Trust Is All You Need is correct, historically speaking, that the "People's Commissariats" were simply renamed "Ministries." An American analogy would be the renaming of the "War Department" to the "Defense Department" — the name change does not indicate an institutional change, only a change of nomenclature, and there should not be two articles established on that basis. ] (]) 20:41, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
			::That's why I took no action until today. I should note that I am bipolar and their harsher comments, like specifying they are angry at me, would have taken a toll on me had if I were not on medication; it costs very little to be nice and ], you truly never know what others are going through. Still, no excuse for harassment, hounding my edits, improperly reverting edits and much more. ]] 15:42, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
	Remember to notify users when reporting them to ANI. Harrypotter has now been notified. --<b>] <small>]</small></b> 22:19, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
			:I have also noticed problematic RC patrolling from PEPSI697. Their responses to complaints are especially concerning. , for example, they say: {{tpq|Ok, but I patrol recent changes and have no time to check sources since the revisions need to be reverted ASAP if it's vandalism, unsourced content or unexplained removal of content. I would not self revert until you're polite and say please. }}. You can see similar responses to queries if you scroll down their talk page. I honestly do not believe they have the competence required to patrol recent changes. <span style="padding:2px 5px;border-radius:5px;font-family:Arial black;white-space:nowrap;vertical-align:-1px">] <span style=color:red>F</span> ]</span> 16:09, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
	* '''Comment''' - I declined a block at ]. I also recommended the users file a dispute, that this is not appropriate for an administrator noticeboard yet. And frankly, to reporter: the fact that you got turned down at AN3 and brought the matter here (without making a link) is ]. I'm marking this as closed, as there is no new information. ] (]) 22:27, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
			::If they have no time to check sources then they should not be reverting sourced changes. Source review is time consuming. It's something I do a lot - and it requires a lot of reading. I'd suggest if they both have neither the time to do the job properly nor the patience to deal with people who are frustrated over their mistakes they should probably find some other way to contribute to the project. ] (]) 16:12, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
	** '''Comment''' - also was turned down at AIV. ] 00:40, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
			::Yes, they revert edits incredibly quickly without verifying if the edits are actually vandalism. They also leave wrong warning templates quite frequently. If you go to his contributions and ctrl + f "sorry" you'll find quite an alarming amount of apologies due to his hastiness. ({{Diff2|1269544073|1}}, {{Diff2|1269540089|2}}, {{Diff2|1269335610|3}}, {{Diff2|1269126904|4}} {{Diff2|1269098577|5}}, again just few examples from his 500 most recent edits). ]] 16:24, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Seeing {{tq|no time to check sources since the revisions need to be reverted ASAP if it's vandalism}} is not a good sign. That strikes me as assuming vandalism without evidence, which goes against AGF. Since their intention is to improve the project and the civility concerns mentioned here are not extreme, I don't think a block makes sense. Perhaps a formal warning reminding them to practice AGF and refrain from mass reversions is sufficient? ~ ] (]) 17:14, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::I think that's a good baseline. Also don't think a block is going to be an appropriate remedy here though, depending on how they respond here, there may or may not be a basis for a formal restriction on recent change patrol for a limited duration. ] (]) 17:16, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:In response to this. I see this as very serious at this point myself (PEPSI697). I'll make a promise that today (16 January 2025) that I'll take a break from patrolling RC for the whole day and concentrate on railway station or train types article based in Australia (my country). I'll have some time to think about the actions that I caused to damage the encyclopaedia then I'll apologise and address the actions. Thanks. <b>]</b> ] | ] 21:32, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::About 14 hours later after my response, no one else responded. I'll be offline for 10 hours from now because it's 10:00pm in Melbourne, Australia and it's almost my bedtime, if you would like to add any other topics between 11:30 (UTC) to 21:40 (UTC), anyone is welcome to do that but I won't be able to respond until 21:40 (UTC) 7:40am Melbourne time. Today (16 January 2025), I successfully took a break from patrolling RC if you have a look at my contributions and concentrated on contributing to railway station articles in Perth, Australia. My plans for contributing to Misplaced Pages tomorrow (17 January 2025) are continuing to improve the railway station, transport infrastructure or train types based in Australia and will follow up asking a few questions at the ] (maybe before 00:00 (UTC) 17 January 2025). If the questions are answered at the Teahouse before 05:00 (UTC), I might patrol recent changes briefly for about 60 minutes (06:00 (UTC) to 06:59 (UTC)) I also plan to extend my break from recent changes this weekend (18 January 2025 and 19 January 2025). I'll be back full time patrolling RC if it goes successful tomorrow on Monday (20 January), if not, I'll extend it to even longer until 24 January 2025. Thanks. <b>]</b> ] | ] 11:12, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Good night! When you wake up, you should proceed on the second half of this sentence you wrote: "I'll have some time to think about the actions that I caused to damage the encyclopaedia then I'll apologise and address the actions." ] (]) 12:10, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::The thing is, you haven't addressed any of the issues or apologized; why should the community believe your continuation on the recent changes patrol will be constructive? Do you understand that your edits are often far too hasty and there are too many mistakes made by you on the patrol? And that your personal feelings should not cloud your judgement and lead you to make comments {{Diff2|1269580448|demanding}} that I "stop getting more angry"? And why exactly have you been targeting my edits to revert and revert back? I'm still baffled by this. ]] 12:18, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Unless you seriously address the issues mentioned above, I think the next step would be a formal editing restriction on recent-changes patrolling. It's clearly disruptive and I don't see anything that leads me to believe it will stop. <span style="padding:2px 5px;border-radius:5px;font-family:Arial black;white-space:nowrap;vertical-align:-1px">] <span style=color:red>F</span> ]</span> 14:35, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::@]: wdym that I'm not allowed to patrol recent changes? I plan to apologise and address the actions in a few hours. You don't even know that I might stop with these incidents, we'll wait and see once I head over to the Teahouse and questions answered and I apologise and address the actions and the community accepts it.
			:::::
			::::@]: Once I apologise and address the actions and the community accepts it and the questions related to Misplaced Pages at the Teahouse is successfully answered, I will most likely stop targeting your reverts and try to do my best to revert edits that are ''obvious'' vandalism.
			:::::
			::::Don't you know that behind the keyboard that I'm actually only 16 years old and I'm not yet an adult and almost am in a couple of years? I simply sometimes don't understand what some words mean? <b>]</b> ] | ] 21:57, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::On the Internet, nobody knows if you're an eight-foot-tall hairless Wookie. Anyway, {{tqq|You don't even know that I might stop with these incidents}} - right, we don't know, and you "might" stop? No, you ''will'' stop, or you will be stopped by a formal editing restriction. - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:14, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::Can you please tell me whether this is an indefinite block on all of Misplaced Pages or part of Misplaced Pages or a temporary block? <b>]</b> ] | ] 03:37, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::Not decided yet, I think it depends on your response, because so far you've said you ''might'' stop what you're doing, which is not really conclusive and doesn't send a great message forward. I do want to say that I am personally disappointed that you were intentionally targeting me, quote "I will most likely stop targeting your reverts". I'd really hope you would stop targeting me, period. ]] 03:47, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::{{nacc}} {{ping|PEPSI697}} A lot of what's been posted above has been brought to your attention before on the user talk page ], ] and ]. Nobody is expecting you to be perfect, and the community understands and is OK with mistakes being made; the community, however, starts to see mistakes as a problem when they start being repeated despite previous "warnings". When you were granted the right to use these tools, the implicit agreement made on your part was that you would use them responsibly and that you understood that you would be held accountable if you didn't. Nobody really cares how old you are (though you might want to take a look at ] and ] because it's not necessarily a good thing to reveal such information, particular for younger editors), and your age will only become an issue if you try to make it one. Your edits are going to be assessed in the same way as the edits of any other editor are going to be assessed: their value to the encyclopedic in terms of relevant policies and guidelines.{{pb}}FWIW, it's very easy to get frustrated when editing Misplaced Pages regardless of how old you are, and I'd imagine everyone gets frustrated at some point. Controlling one's anger, however, isn't the responsibility of others, and it's not really appropriate at all to try to "blame" others for "making" you angry. If doing certain things on Misplaced Pages increases the chances of you becoming angry, then perhaps it would be a good idea for you to avoid doing them as much. You posted on ] that you get {{tq|stressed or angry alot in IRL and don't think straight that's why I do it}} when someone warned you about editing/removing other's posts, but this is something you've been ]. Patrolling for vandalism and recent changes are things that will leads to lots of interaction with other editors, and it might be better to avoid doing such things if you're having a bad day out in the real world because the others you're interacting with might not be too interested in what type of day you're having or could just also be having a bad day themselves. Furthermore, if you {{tq|sometimes don't understand what some words mean}}, politely ask for clarification or just let it go; responding to something without understanding what it means only increases the chances of you'll post something that makes things worse. Take a breather, try to figure out what was posted (use a dictionary or ask someone if needed), and consider whether a response is even needed or what to post if one is.{{pb}}Finally, if you're not sure whether an edit is vandalism or otherwise not policy/guideline compliant, then leave it as is, and find some who might be more experienced in dealing with such things to ask about it. Unless it's a really serious policy violation like a BLP or copyright matter, dealing with can probably wait a bit. Regardless of how many good edits you've made over the years, the community will step in and take some action if it starts to feel your negatives start to outweigh your positives, just like it does for any other editor. -- ] (]) 01:41, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::Update from PEPSI697: I'll apologise and address the issues at 06:00 (UTC) (5:00pm Melbourne time). Stay tuned. <b>]</b> ] | ] 04:03, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::Can I ask something? If I do spot obvious vandalism coincidentally when I'm in an article or any Misplaced Pages project pages, how can I report them? <b>]</b> ] | ] 04:06, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::Rollback/undo the edits (check page history for constructive edits in between), warn the user, if the user has exceeded 4 warnings or if it's a persistent vandal/vandalism only account report to ]. ]] 04:12, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::Thanks, I know that. But will I get a editing restriction for reverting vandalism? <b>]</b> ] | ] 04:23, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::Maybe you should articulate, in your own words, what people have told you is wrong with your prior behavior. Because the answer is that you will get an editing restriction if you keep doing those things. ] (]) 11:53, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			=== PEPSI697's Questions about better improving experience for the future ===
	== ] has already left the building ==
			:I have a few questions I want to ask so I can better improve my experience recent changes once I return one day.
	{{resolved|1=An editor apparently mistook the closing admin for one of the sockpuppets. Page deleted by {{user|Risker}} as requested. –]] 14:27, 14 October 2010 (UTC)}}
			::
	Not only have I left the building, but I left in style. Three times now, each time to the catcalls and brickbats of many adoring fans and haters (sadly more haters than fans).
			:1: When patrolling recent changes if you see that someone has removed content without explanation or added unsourced content, how can I revert it if I can't use Twinkle? I see other contributors with UltraViolet revert unexplained removal and unsourced content.
			::
			:2: I see that other contributors on Misplaced Pages leave talk page topics or messages by using e.g. Twinkle or UltraViolet? How can I do that and where is the customisable Twinkle settings? That's the reason I make so many mistakes by placing the wrong warning, because I'm so use to placing the uw-vandalism2 one.
			::
			:3: If I can't be too hasty in reverting, how come I see other contributors revert the revision by patrolling recent changes so quickly?
			::
			:Thanks. <b>]</b> ] | ] 06:10, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			::1: Revert it manually with an edit summary. I use UltraViolet and there are edit summaries for such removals, imo a very useful tool.
			::2: For twinkle, just change which warning to use in the dropdown selection.
			::3: If it is obvious vandalism, that's probably why the revision is reverted so quickly. The issue is when it is not so obvious, and you might need to check some sources, which will take longer. ]] 06:26, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I might consider switching to UltraViolet to only revert unsourced or unexplained removal once I return to patrolling RC one day. Thanks for the advice. Btw, do you accept my apology? <b>]</b> ] | ] 06:31, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Yes, I accept your apology. ]] 07:17, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			=== Response and apology from PEPSI697 ===
	Perhaps you could delete the ridiculous accusation of sock-puppetry on my old user page? I was curious to see if anyone had left any messages and was surprised that anyone would be stupid enough to have recreated the old user page!!!
			The first thing I want to do is apologise and then address the actions. It was not my intention to make anyone feel victimised or attacked. I want a good relationship with all the contributors on Misplaced Pages and to learn from them if I can. I realise that I am a little out of my depth with RC patrolling and so I'm going to take a break to better educate myself on vandalism or policy violation. I wonder if the community has any suggestions on how I can contribute in another way to Misplaced Pages that will not cause me these kinds of problems. Misplaced Pages is a big thing in my life and gives me a sense of achievement and I really want this to continue. <b>]</b> ] | ] 06:01, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	Thanks. - ] (]) 14:20, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
	:Oh, didn't realise why this happened. Should have realised. Thanks Xeno/Risker. - ] (]) 14:32, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
	::Sheesh, I couldn't even post here to say I'd responded to the CSD for all the edit conflicts! No worries TBSDY. ] (]) 14:40, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
	:::Left, but still editing as an IP isn't quite the same as left. ] (]) 16:17, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
	::::Yeah, I was thinking that's a bit odd - if it is who s/he claims to be. I'm pretty sure that's well outsite ] with or without self-proclaimed style. ] <small>(])</small> 17:59, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
	:::::I don't think the ] rules were written with the intent of ensuring that false accusations of sockpupetry would remain on vanished users talk pages. But I've been wrong before.--] (]) 18:08, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
	:::::Did {{user0|Tbsdy lives}} exercise ], or simply retire? ] 18:15, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
	::::::<s>I don't see any indication they exercised RTV.</s> –]] 18:51, 14 October 2010 (UTC) <small>I forgot about the talk page bit</small>
	:::::::He somehow persuaded Arbcom to enforce an out-of-process and contrary to policy deletion of his usertalk pages, so he managed to vanish rather more than would be allowed to editors in good standing. ] (]) 20:12, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
	::::::::and now has the audacity to ask that a false claim of sockpupetry be removed.--] (]) 20:16, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
	:::::::::Oh for Pete's sake, no-one is complaining about the removal of a mistaken sock notice. What ''I'm'' complaining about is how come he gets to have his talk page deleted as being forever gone and in special circumstances, but then carries on editing as an IP. It was strongly implied that if he returned the talk page would be restored. The IP's contributions are clearly his. ] (]) 23:12, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
	Gentleman, I make small on and off edits under an IP address. Indeed, I vanished. Until I noticed that someone had added something to the Ta bu shi da yu page I didn't post here. If you look at the edit history of that IP address, you'll notice that I edited a few articles and asked a few ''anonymous'' questions about statistics related matters because I'm teaching myself statistics. If folks like DuncanHill want to get all high and mighty about it, well tough. I'm not contributing a great deal, but I'm still making the odd edit. I was never banned, so far as I know. However, it's a moot point as you'll never, ever really know it's me editing if I decide to switch ISPs. To all intents and purposes, I have indeed vanished. Thank you one and all, and especially to those who cleared up the very small matter of my old user talk page. - ] (]) 10:08, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	:You haven't retired, you haven't vanished (an early talk page edit from your IP made it clear you were a returning "old-hand". Yet, somehow, you have persuaded Arbcom to threaten any admin who follows policy and restores your account's talk page. No, you weren't ever banned, but you've gamed the system like a pro. ] (]) 10:25, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	::Just add, have you read ''Facts from Figures'' by Moroney? It's jolly good. ] (]) 10:27, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	:::As the user has clearly not "left Misplaced Pages finally and forever," the user has not ]ed at all, rather has switched to an IP address. The "right to vanish" is not a "right to a fresh start" under a new identity. I have tagged the IP address as such and restored ]. ] <small>(])</small> 18:48, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
			:I realize it's been nearly a year since you've joined; my intention is certainly not to come across as condescending (I haven't gone through your contributions), but have you tried doing some more basic editing and getting familiar with the newcomer resources? Such as by reading the ] or looking at the ]? Both of those places have suggestions on how to contribute in a simpler, perhaps easier to grasp way that would allow you to become more familiar with the policies and violations in a relaxed fashion.
	*See thread further down - ]
			:Again, I apologize if I'm offering unneeded advice to an experienced editor; this is just an idea, as someone who started editing a tad more regularly relatively recently and so is in a similar, albeit not identical, position. ] (]) 18:23, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Thanks very much for the suggestion. I had a look at task center this morning, unfortunately, I didn't have any interest in any of those topics. But I do feel like adding the template "talkheader" into as many article talk pages as I can, May I ask if this is encouraged to do so? I did it with a few railway station articles in Melbourne and Victoria in Australia. <b>]</b> ] | ] 03:20, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::There is guidance on how to use the {{tlx|Talk header}} found on its documentation page at ] and also at ]. FWIW, I've seen cases where a talk header has been removed by someone, particularly with respect an empty talk page; so, simply adding one for the sake of adding one might not be the most productive way to spend your time editing since there are probably plenty of more serious issues that need addressing than an article talk page not having a "talk header" template. There's lots of things to do on Misplaced Pages as explained in ] and pretty much anything mentioned on that page can be done without using bots, scripts or special tools. You could also take a look at pages like ], ], ], ], ] for ideas. Since you're interested in articles about railways, you could also look for things to do at ] or ]. -- ] (]) 04:04, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Fair enough, I knew that adding Talkheader might of not been the most productive thing to do. How about I might try to bring some Australian railway station articles to GA status? I did do it with ], but is awaiting review. I might concentrate fixing a few things at the Bell railway station Melbourne article and I also plan to get ] article to good article status too. I'll concentrate on that instead. <b>]</b> ] | ] 04:17, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			== Topic ban or ban on creating articles outside the AFC process? ==
	===Restored user talk pages===
			{{atop|status=Sock it to them|1=PsychoticIncall blocked for sockpuppetry. - ] <sub>]</sub> 21:44, 16 January 2025 (UTC)}}
			{{Userlinks|PsychoticIncall}} has been an editor since March of last year. As can be seen on their Talk page and on the page creation log, since May 2024, they have created dozens of articles and unlikely redirects, many of which have been deleted after AfDs. Currently, from their talk page alone, I count 29 articles on non-notable poker players that ended up being deleted, and a further nine that ended up as redirects or a merge to a more appropriate article, with only six of the AfD'ed articles being kept. This is obviously a drain on the time of people who regularly participate at New Pages Patrol and/or AfD.
			A to become more familiar with ] and ] and to consider using the ] process for new articles (and to not create unlikely redirects) went unanswered. 23 articles have been deleted/redirected since then, by my count.
	*See also ] for background. ] (]) 23:36, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
			While notability is the main concern, sourcing, spelling and grammar on these pages are all less than ideal. An IP about the user's process for article creation (also unanswered), specifically asking about apparently random/non-sequitur section headings (which can be seen still in place at ]) - similar seemingly random headings were also used on the (now-deleted) article ] article (mentioned in the ].) Many of the surviving articles use essentially random terms, with poker players being described (without sources) as , and .
	I can't believe it. I anonymously made a few edits from an Optus Cable account and you have restored my user talk pages? I've never seen such an act of bastardy on Misplaced Pages, ever. - ] (]) 23:19, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	::Oh do give it a rest, you are starting to bore people. <small><span style="border:1px solid blue;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 23:22, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	::It is a misunderstanding in that you exercised a ] rather than retiring the account under the circumstances then prevailing, which resulted in the pages being deleted. I do not know whether those circumstances still hold, but if they do then you should contact ArbCom again and see if the deletion can be returned. ] (]) 23:30, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	:::If it was RTV, the pages still should not have been deleted ''sans'' MfD. I'm ''fairly'' sure Brad said that Tbsdy would not be editing again, when he was asked to justify his request that the pages stay deleted. ] (]) 23:33, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	::::], but that comment was made on my talkpage so would have not been seen by too many people. After that point I do not know what transpired, and I assume Toddst1 was acting in good faith and a misunderstanding of the original situation - but it would help if Brad or another Arb could comment on what the position is now. ] (]) 23:50, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	::::::I have contacted ArbCom, per LHVU's advise. - ] (]) 23:55, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	:::::::Thanks for the good faith, LHVU. As I stated on my talk, If there was an arbcom decision, I'd be glad to self revert. All I've read is hearsay and a statement from NYB in May asking that the page be left deleted but with a qualification of "at this time." Since then, TBSDY has returned and is . That changes any RTV. Unless arbcom has ruled, we all follow the same rules. ] <small>(])</small> 00:08, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
	::: It's a misunderstanding, sure, but why are regular editors who know as much about the Misplaced Pages ethic as I do acting so robotically towards a very well regarded editor who has exercised the right of all people in good standing to edit Misplaced Pages anonymously? --] 23:34, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	::::I don't think that is a correct representation of the events. The user returned and was quite disruptive, left under a cloud and as I remember had his admin removed, correct me if I am wrong.] (]) 23:47, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	:::::You're not wrong. ] (]) 23:51, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	::::::Actually, I didn't leave under a cloud, and Brad politely asked me if he could remove my admin rights ''after'' I left, which I readily agreed to. - ] (]) 23:53, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	:::::::As I recall, Brad politely informed the rest of us that your loss of admindom counted as "under a cloud" if you ever asked for them back. I'll sniff about for the diff. ] (]) 00:00, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
	::::::::You recall rather wrongly then. - ] (]) 00:09, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
	:::::::::Well, interpretations may differ, but was the comment I was recalling. ] (]) 00:13, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
	::::::::::Oh fuck it. The reason I was leaving was because I was having suicidal thoughts that were causing me a great deal of problems. I have a young family and had I taken my life I would have left a widow and two small children without a father. Happy now? That's the whole fucking reason why Brad was being so oblique, you unbelievable twat. - ] (]) 00:16, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
			I would like to propose ''either'' a topic ban from poker and poker-related articles for PsychoticIncall; ''or'', at minimum, a ban on creating articles outside of the ] process. ]<sup>]</sup> 17:44, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
	The simple fact here is that I have made a few minor edits to Misplaced Pages, and asked a few questions on the Math RD. All under an anonymous IP address. If I'd asked for my old user page to be deleted via a proxy, then this wouldn't be an issue. But that's not Cricket, so for my honesty I'm being punished? That's fucked up. - ] (]) 00:00, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
	*To quote ]: "Editors who invoke this right should expect that, should they return, their previous identity will be fully restored and may be linked to their new one if required for communal scrutiny, and any open sanctions and outstanding administrator or arbitration matters may be resumed." If you've 'vanished' that doesn't mean you get to edit anonymously; it means ''you're done here''. ]] 00:07, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
	**What is that new identity? And are you saying I'm banned from even making the odd small change to a typo? - ] (]) 00:09, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
	***Hint: it starts 114... And yes. If you invoke RTV that means, to use Marcellus Wallace's words, "You get gone. And when you gone, you stay gone." That's how it works. ''You'' chose to link an IP to your former account, ''you'' decided to break the RTV. In essence, you banned yourself by invoking RTV. →&nbsp;]&nbsp;]<small>&nbsp;00:14, 16 October 2010 (UTC)</small>
	*****But I didn't link that IP address to my old account. It was a pure accident in that I posted to WP:AN/I asking for the slur that I was a sockpuppet to be removed. Had I not done that you'd never have known... my mistake I guess. - ] (]) 00:32, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
	***Given your failure to understand this, I'm curious as to how you became an admin in the first place. Was there a raffle or something? ]] 00:19, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
	****I created this noticeboard. I got quite a few articles to FA status (at the time). I helped organize Wikimeetups. I started Wikiproject Sydney. I did a lot of work to remove trolls, I cleaned up a lot of things, I created the {{tl|fact}} tag, and on and on it goes. - ] (]) 00:32, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
			:You stated that 23 articles have been deleted since September 2024. But are these 23 articles newly created since September 2024, or prior to that? If they have reduced their article creations over time as their articles get deleted (of which 6 survived), I don't think any ban is appropriate, and uninvolved editors should weigh in on a guidance in creating poker player articles in the future. ] (]) 18:56, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
	*I just tried to write a post explaining the RTV, but realized I could think of exceptions for everything I said was the case. Maybe this is the time to nail down what RTV means. Are pages moved or deleted, do they include talk pages, does it mean the user must never return, or is he allowed to keep on editing under a different name/IP? etc. And what is the difference between RTV and fresh start? <font color="blue">]</font> <small><sup><font color="red">]</font><font color="green">]</font></sup></small> 00:23, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
			::A better question to ask is "Is their ratio of good work to bad any better?" I'd say no, it's not significantly better. I'd support a topic ban or article-space ban; their attachment to the topic seems to keep them immune from listening to requests to change their behavior. - ] ] 22:43, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
	**A fresh start means a new account is created, or you start actively contributing to the project under an anonymous IP address. I didn't believe, and still don't, that RTV means that you can't correct typos, or ask questions at the reference desk! - ] (]) 00:25, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
			:::I looked at their user creation logs, and they markedly reduced their article creations after Bastun's warning on 17:55, 2 September 2024, seeing they only created 4 articles which admittedly 3 were deleted. I think anyone creating 4 articles and having 3 articles deleted is not ground for ANI. They made a lot of redirects that were deleted though, I think a warning against careless redirect creations is appropriate, because it appears they listen to warnings. ] (]) 07:21, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
	::*It means different things depending on who is involved (who the editor is, who is handling it). That has always been the problem with it. Strictly speaking talk pages shouldn't be deleted under RTV, but moved to a new name. Strictly speaking if you invoke RTV you're meant to stay vanished. But exceptions abound. <font color="blue">]</font> <small><sup><font color="red">]</font><font color="green">]</font></sup></small> 00:28, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
			::A quick check of the creation logs is showing me that since 30 September, they have created 32 redirects, 5 of which remain undeleted, and 9 articles, 2 of which remain undeleted. ]<sup>]</sup> 10:49, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			Please just block them indef, they not only have massive competence issues but they are a sock of a blocked editor, . I can provide more evidence or start an SPI if necessary. ] (]) 09:22, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
	Wow, Toddst1 just warned me that I'm about to get blocked. Please! As far as I'm concerned, anyone who is actively pursuing someone when they know they have a serious mental illness is a twat, pure and simple. - ] (]) 00:28, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
			:Oh, wow - good catch! Looking at ], it looks indistinguishable from ]. Note also the use of the invented (?) term, "quarter professional", in article titles on that talk page, a term PsychoticIncall also uses. Quack. ]<sup>]</sup> 10:56, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:I think this is a convincing case for SPI, please start it. ] (]) 12:14, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			::I've started it. - ] ] 12:20, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			::However, there is a big gap in time since EBBB was blocked until now, so we may not get good CU results. But I'm going to block on behavior for now. - ] ] 12:22, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
			== Suspicious activity of several accounts ==
	:I hope no one ends up being blocked. TB, is there a reason now that you want your talk pages to stay deleted? You don't need to elaborate, but is there still a reason? <font color="blue">]</font> <small><sup><font color="red">]</font><font color="green">]</font></sup></small> 00:30, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
			{{atop|result=OP has withdrawn complaint. They know the way to ] and have been encouraged to make use of it. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 22:10, 15 January 2025 (UTC)}}
	::Yes, it's hard for me to elaborate, but it definitely relates to my ongoing illness. - ] (]) 00:33, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
			I'm not going to take this to sockpuppet investigation because I don't have enough evidence of sockpuppetry. So I'm going to report it here just in case, someone could investigate this situation. {{ping|Kaloypangilinan}} restored {{ping|CindyMalena}}'s edits in these two articles.. I reverted CindyMalena's edits because they were unreferenced. Both these editors didn't add a reference to the same names they've added in the two articles and they didn't use the edit summary. These are the unreferenced edits of CindyMalena. The changes of CindyMalena/Kaloypangilinan aren't 100% identical, but they've added names that the references of the article don't mention. Kaloypangilinan has been warned 4 times (last year) in their talkpage for unreferenced content. Kaloypangilinan also don't respond to talk page messages, they've been reported here in ANI before, and still continue to make unreferenced edits. Since I became suspicious if these two editors are connected, I discovered CindyMalena created this page for "Kaloy Tingcungco", an actor in the Philippines according to Google. Then I googled "Kaloy Pangilinan" in google and pictures of the Philippine actor "Kaloy Tingcungco" came out. Whats weirder is CindyMalena edited the Wikipage of this blocked account ]. I don't know how can a newly created account edit a Wikipage of a blocked editor, if they aren't connected. ] (]) 18:52, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::Okay, then I am going to delete them for now, and we can continue discussing what to do in the longer term, and in more general terms with this kind of situation. <font color="blue">]</font> <small><sup><font color="red">]</font><font color="green">]</font></sup></small> 00:34, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
	::::Thanks. If it means that I never, ever edit on this site again (ever! even for typos, etc.) then so be it! - ] (]) 00:36, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
			:You really should take this to ]. For one thing, if you're right, it's the appropriate venue. For another, if you're wrong but have put together a case with behavioural evidence such as the editing of a blocked editor's user boxes you're less likely to get accused of casting aspersions. My sincere recommendation is to withdraw this incident report and then create a SPI case. ] (]) 18:55, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
	== Merridew behaviour ==
			::Per {{ping|Simonm223}}'s suggestion, I'm going to withdraw this incident report. As for a SPI case, both CindyMalena and Kaloypangilinan have less than 200 edits and I simply don't have enough amount of evidence to report them in Spi. ] (]) 19:08, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::], why do you think the editors have to have made 200 edits before they can be reported? Some editors who have been blocked as sockpuppets have made 0 edits. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 19:57, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::The last editor, I've reported relating to sockpuppetry before this was ] had 71 edits. Looking at the contributions page of Kaloypangilinan and CindyMalena, I don't have much evidence aside from what I already posted here. I did notice the similar behavior of no communication in their respective talkpage and not using the edit summary. Like I said, I don't know how can a new account can locate this page ], since the user page of ] is empty and their talkpage don't have any posts that would direct new users to ]. I would need more evidence if I ever report something to SPI. I've only submitted reports in SPI, twice if I'm remembering correctly. ] (]) 20:16, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::{{u|Hotwiki}}, if you have enough evidence then you should report suspected sockpuppetry at ]. If you don't have enough evidence then you shouldn't report it anywhere. ] (]) 20:33, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::I did make a mistake coming here about this issue, thats why I already withdrew this report. Also, I've only made two sockpuppet reports (if I remember correctly) which both were stressful for me. With Kaloypangilinan/CindyMalena, I just didn't want to go through the same process with fewer evidences, which is why I came here to ANI. ] (]) 20:42, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::It sounds like @] is just looking for assurance that it's OK to take this to SPI with this evidence?
			:::::::Hotwiki, I'm not an admin or a checkuser, nor an expert on SPI, but you can always try submitting a report. It's easier if you use Twinkle. There isn't any rush to submit a report, you can take your time. ] (]) 20:52, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::Thank you {{ping|Knitsey}}. For now, I don't feel confident filing a SPI report against CindyMalena/Kaloy Pangilinan. The last SPI case I made was stressful because the sockpuppeteer had several accounts. I ended up doing 2 reports which were both confirmed right. Last month, I reported a sockpuppeteer in ANI because they admitted it through their talkpage and it was connected to those two times I made a report in Spi. But this is a different case with Kaloypangilinan/CindyMalena. If I get more evidences in the future, I would go back to it and send it to SPI. Thank you for the suggestions and I'm sorry if I brought up my sockpuppet suspicious here, since this isn't the right place for that. ] (]) 21:04, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
			*Just a note that an SPI case was filed and both editors were found to be sockpuppets of ]. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 17:11, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			== User Douglas1998A creating incorrect categories. ==
	{{resolved|No, it is. No admin is going to take action here, as my previous reverted close suggested. There are other venues available for dispute resolution. ] ] 17:59, 15 October 2010 (UTC)}}
			{{atop|1=The pblock will continue until communication improves. - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:19, 17 January 2025 (UTC)}}
	Per , and , I ask an uninvolved admin to block {{user|Jack Merridew}} for disruption. This is a continuation of a pattern of abusive editing on Merridew's part to impose his preferred styles on articles over objections. He is now accusing ''me'' of "harrassment" for undoing his undiscussed changes to the styles established in articles that I previously edited. Merridew was banned by arbcom for past stalking and abuse of multiple accounts. His current arbcom sanction mentions " follow dispute resolution processes to resolve editing conflicts". I submit he has failed to do so. I believe, at this point, his behaviour is more than serious enough to warrant a block. I would block him myself for disruption, but other admins have felt I am involved. (I will be offline for many hours now.) ] (]) 19:33, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
			Two weeks ago I opened ] on {{u|Douglas1998A}} creating and adding incorrect categories to pages, most notably on ] and ]. In November 2024, they created ] and added it to ] and ], even though they are not American telenovelas. The category was deleted but in December 2024, they created ] and added the previously mentioned pages to this new category when they are only Brazilian telenovelas and not American ones. . The category was deleted and the user created it once more today and added it to ] and ] again.
			The first time this issue was brought up to the noticeboard it was never resolved as the user ] after being notified of the discussion, and they have never bothered to reply back to messages on ]. How can this be resolved if the user continuously fails to engage in ]?] (]) 19:07, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
	: You ''are'' involved; and very much so. &nbsp;] 19:38, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
			:{{ping|Sammi Brie}} Your take? ] (]) 19:34, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
	::] '''?''' <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 19:46, 14 October 2010 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned -->
			:Pretty obviously a communication is required problem and also wrong. The telenovelas don't have any American production outside of one being dubbed into Spanish by a U.S. broadcaster, which does not count. ] (she/her •&nbsp;] • ]) 19:40, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Has Douglas1998A done any positive work in Category space? Because if it's just warring over these two categories, they could be partially blocked from Categories unless their other work creating categories is fine. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 20:00, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Per Douglas1998A's talk page, two other categories created by them were nominated and deleted. These were: ] and ]. So I believe there it's more than just the Brazilian/Portuguese categories.
			:::I have also mentioned to Douglas1998A that pages should be placed in the most specific categories to which they belong. For example on ] they persistently added ], when the page is already in the subcategory ].
			:::Douglas1998A's lack of communication and reverting edits show they are unwilling to discuss and resolve the issues with their edits. ] (]) 21:03, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
			:A day has passed since the user was notified of this discussion. They have continued editing and have not bothered to reply. The user is ignoring the issue and it will once again be unresolved. ] (]) 18:42, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			::{{User-blocked}} from article space per ]. Once the user begins commmunicating and adequately addresses these concerns, any admin is free to lift the block. <b>]</b><sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub> 20:09, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
			== Al-Naghawi page ==
	:Seems like a content dispute, and a kinda lame one at that. Is there a version that is more frequently used in other actor bios? Has this been discussed in a style guideline perhaps in a wikiproject? ] (]) 19:52, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
			{{atop
			| result = Not an ANI issue. {{nac}} ] <sup><small>]</small></sup> 03:02, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			}}
			*{{articlelinks|Al-Naghawi}}
			currently there is an edit issue going on with the Al-Naghawi page as information is being changed back and forth alongside the page's title name so I wish for admin intervention to resolve issues as sources are not being checked which are cited as they are irrelevant to the page. ] (]) 08:01, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:] is thataway. → - ] <sub>]</sub> 08:09, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
			== Magian Priest's Descendant - egregious personal attacks ==
	: It's not about colours or styles or my editing; he's decided to target me. ] 20:10, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
			{{atop
	:::* {{diff|Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents|379705517|379705241|this statement}}
			| result = Escalated to indeffed. Nothing further. {{nac}} ] <sup><small>]</small></sup> 03:10, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::* ]
			}}
	:::* ]
	:::* ] (which was about Gimme' reverting ''me'')
	::: ] 21:40, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
	::Not going to lie, after reading over those diffs, and your ANI report, it looks like you, Gimmetoo, are the one who has been doing all the harassing. If there's a content dispute, take it back to square one with Jack and discuss it civilly. For the record, Jack is more than willing to talk about his edits. On a side note, considering that you yourself do not have all too stellar of a , I encourage you to not hurl stones at other people's glass houses when you live in one yourself. -''']''' <sup><small>]</small></sup> 20:45, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
	:::Well, that last bit isn't very fair. One 12hr block for 3RR and one temporary indef to confirm that an alt account was genuine does not make one's abode a glass one. ] (]) 21:25, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
	*I agree with Fastily's summary of the interactions between Jack and Gimmetoo/trow. It is clear that Gimme is the one being tendentious and unreasonable, and has indulged in ] behaviour over a period of several months. Gimme seems to believe that he ] certain articles and interprets all disagreement on their content or presentation as a personal affront, and I'm sure I don't need to say that that is a totally unproductive and irrational attitude. It is also worrying that Gimme takes such delight in bringing up Jack Merridew's (very distant) past bad behaviour, as though it's ''prima facie'' evidence that Jack must be in the wrong now. That is quite obviously wrong too. I urge Gimmetoo to leave Jack the hell alone and stop being so precious. This is beyond tiresome. ] <sub>]</sub> 22:26, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
	** Closed this, before Gimmetoo/trow finds themselves having a major issue. Blocking Merridew themselves would result in a desysop RFC. So don't do it. ] ] 23:17, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
			{{userlinks|Magian Priest's Descendant}}
	*Not resolved. Merridew went immediately to making similar inappropriate changes of style known to be controversial, in this case in direct violation of ]: " Because templates can be contentious, '''editors should not change an article with a distinctive citation format to another without gaining consensus'''." The edits in question are to and . Merridew made no attempt to gain consensus, no post on the talk page, no attempt at discussion that I can find. Furthermore, his edit to Andress installed a bug in the table that Merridew ought to know about, because it was the content basis for the last ANI issue. (An issue which, by the way, Merridew misprepresents above; Merridew undid one of my edits, I started a discussion, and Merridew didn't respond.) And I noticed these because both Kerr and Andress are articles I have watchlisted, and that I've edited quite a bit, as far as I know long before Merridew ever edited them. (I've also edited the other articles Merridew edited: Bynes and Bullock.) It seems likely to me that Merridew is stalking me, especially given Merridew's documented prior stalking. ] (]) 05:28, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	:*Seriously? The difference between and is what you are so flustered about? Removing some entirely redundant coloring is an "inappropriate edit" that gets you up in arms like this? --] (]) 08:09, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	:: Storm in a teacup much? ] (]) 08:37, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	:::Indeed. Looks like someone is suffering from a serious case of ] and ]. Please stop for the good of the project. Thanks, ''']''' <sup><small>]</small></sup> 17:17, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	:::: Sorry, but I think you're all missing the point-- we have policies and guidelines for a reason, and Gimme is following them. How about telling Merridew to move along and find something else to occupy his time with? ] (]) 18:00, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	::::: The point is that Gimmetoo/trow is making it a habit of demanding blocks of editors who disagree with him when he doesn't get his way, has a major ownership problem with some articles, and refuses to listen to constructive feedback. Why should Jack "move along" when he's working for the good of the project and obeying policy and guidelines (indeed, helping to improve them) simply because an obstructionist doesn't like it? What needs to happen here is for Gimetoo to "let it go;" I hope that action will be taken against him the next time he makes one of these frivolous complaints.] (]) 18:05, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	:::::: Could you please explain your assertion that Jack is obeying policy and guidelines, when it is Gimme who is doing so? If Merridew doesn't like our citation guidelines, he should take his crusade to that page. ] (]) 18:14, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	::::::: The ''point'' is that there are other venues for resolution of disputes before marching straight to ANI. This page is ''not'' for yelling "I don't like what this editor's doing, please block them". This is why I've marked this resolved (twice). ] ] 18:17, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	:::::::: The explanation of how Jack is obeying policy and guidelines is that he's making articles internally consistent (and very often consistent with other similar articles as well). Consistency is a principle that overrules personal preferences. It is downright disruptive to complain about changing a reference like this: ''<nowiki><ref>http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20414325,00.html</ref></nowiki>'' to this: ''<nowiki><ref>{{cite web|last=Oh |first=Eunice |url=http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20414325,00.html |title=Miranda Kerr: Yes, I'm Pregnant! - Babies, Miranda Kerr, Orlando Bloom |publisher=People.com |date=2010-08-19 |accessdate=2010-10-15}}</ref></nowiki>'' and Gimme knows it. He's also aware that ] documents the consensus that we should change dates ranges like "1987-1988" to "1987–1988" and Gimme knows that as well. He even knows how to fix the problem that his browser causes him, because I've taught him how to do it (add a sort key). It's about time that Gimme stopped obstructing editors whose only desire is to improve Misplaced Pages, and quit running to ANI every time he doesn't get his way, before the community loses patience with him. --] (]) 21:39, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	::::::::Precisely. ANI is not here to play mommy. I also don't see anything wrong with Jack's edits as a purely practical matter. He removes redundant coding, an outright good thing. Policy is descriptive, not proscriptive as we say. It describes accepted community standards, not tells us what to do. We even have/had that wording on one of the policy overview pages, followed by 'it can and does lag behind community practices at times'. I think the lack of outcry and the frustration with Gimmetoo's hounding of Jack is fairly good evidence that the policy in question is starting to get behind the times. --<small><span style="border:1px solid orange;background:#A6D785"><font size="1" color="9E0508">]</font></span></small><font color="#B13E0F"><strong>M</strong></font><font color="#A9A9A9">]</font> 21:29, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	(od) Another editor tried to work things out with Jack once before but he managed to out last her. She retired from the project, see it here ]. I'm done for the night but I'm sure Jack can supply the many difs to the RFC and the projects who dealt with this. Have a good night everyone. --]] 22:32, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	::] also had frequent arguments with Jack Merridrew. A Nobody is now banned from editing. --] ] 23:21, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	::: Irrelevant, and blatantly untrue. &nbsp;] 00:01, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
	::::There was obviously a big argument between the two: http://meta.wikimedia.org/User_talk:Rlevse --] ] 00:13, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
			Also violated ] at ] , refusing to use the talk page (whose comments shows that they either have ] issues or are trolling). --] (]) 10:37, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
	== Bruce Forsyth, not run over by bus ==
			:While not strictly a 3RR violation (note the last diff is a different edit) but absolutely edit-warring, and when combined with the personal attacks in the edit-summaries, have blocked them for 24 hours. - ] <sub>]</sub> 10:54, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Thanks The Bushranger! ] (]) 11:01, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
			== Non-neutral paid editor ==
	{{resolved|Semi'ed by Dabomb87. ] (]) 23:47, 14 October 2010 (UTC) }}
	Looking at the ] article, I see several edits from IP addresses, all looking much like , adding information on death today. I cannot find any news reports confirming this, and a look at Twitter shows only a couple of tweets about a rumour.
			@] is heavily editing ] in favour of her declared client, www.earthsystemgovernance.org. This has included placing undue weight material in the body and lead, and attacking rival organisations (ie the DEGREES initiative). Despite multiple appeals on the article talk page / her personal talk page, she's still at it - wasting everyone's time with long discussion posts arguing in favour of biasing the page. She just needs to be locked out of this article and related articles, and - if that's not possible - given a temporary or permanent ban. ] (]) 12:45, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
	Perhaps this article could be semi-protected for a time until the situation is clear? --] (]) 23:28, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
			:That's not the only page where I'm seeing some questionable edits:
	== Malleus Fatuorum civility issue ==
			:* Softening language surrounding the impact of COVID on sustainable development goals.
			:* Cutting information concerning the impact of climate change on water scarcity.
			:* - here it's more the slash-and-burn approach to the reliable sources that were deleted.
			:* Refers to an economics journal as poor sourcing for a statement about the economics of sustainable financing.
			:An openly paid editor making promotional and other questionable edits is probably ]. But I would caution you that you do need to inform EMsmile on their user talk page that this thread has been created - pinging them is not sufficient. ] (]) 13:08, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			::done ] (]) 13:54, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			::@]: I looked at all four edits you listed, and I think there are perfectly ] reasons for them.
			::#By "softening language", do you refer to the removal of phrases such as ''"has had a profound impact on the mental and physical wellbeing of communities around the world"'' and ''"The pandemic slowed progress towards achieving the SDGs. It has "exacerbated existing fault lines of inequality"'' + ''"The brunt of the impacts of the COVID-19 pandemic were felt by poorer segments of the population"?'' Let's be frank: do you imagine a paper encyclopedia retaining these phrases? Do you think they would have made it through a FAN or even a GAN? The edit already keeps the phrase "It was "the worst human and economic crisis in a lifetime." and I would argue that it already implies what the cut phrases said. An abundance of emotive language risks that some users tune out. You may disagree with this perspective, but it is a defensible one. Likewise, the paragraph she cut about "An independent group of scientists..." - do you still imagine this statement to be relevant in say 3-5 years' time? If not, it would likely violate ] and so should not belong there. Lastly she cut the claim that three of the SDGs "ignore the planetary limits and encourage consumption" - a '''very''' strong statement cited to..., seemingly not even peer-reviewed.
			::#Misplaced Pages should not use language such as "recent report", and COP29 is already over. There is literally ], and cutting that paragraph seems justifiable under that metric. '''If''' that reference has some hard numbers on water scarcity that are not present elsewhere in the article, '''then''' it should be used to provide them. However, that paragraph was not it.
			::#Do you '''really''' think phrases like ''"China's dedication to sustainable finance is extending to multiple fronts, demonstrating a holistic approach to green development. The ambitious ] (BRI), a flagship project spanning numerous countries, is increasingly embracing green finance principles, prioritizing eco-friendly investments across its vast infrastructure and development endeavors. This shift aligns the BRI with sustainability goals, emphasizing clean energy, climate resilience, and biodiversity protection in partner nations....Notably, China's 14th Five-Year Plan introduces a comprehensive sustainability approach that permeates various sectors, encompassing agriculture, mining, transportation, and more. China's active engagement in international collaborations is poised to influence global green finance standards, driving increased transparency and accountability in sustainable investments."'' are consistent with ]? '''Really?''' ''Maybe'' cutting '''all''' of it went too far, but it certainly didn't belong in an article looking like that.
			::# That citation was linked as a mere PDF, with almost no work done to make it a properly formatted citation. When I did look up the title, I found that said "economics journal"...was apparently . It's unclear if it had been peer-reviewed, and I strongly doubt it counts as a good source for any matters not specific to Hungary.
			::In all, using these edits and an accusation of COI (by an OP who appears to have his own COI in this subject matter) to argue that a user with extensive topic experience "is probably ]" seems downright ]. ] (]) 17:53, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Are you accusing Simonm223, who raised the points you're responding to, of having a COI as well? Are you also accusing Thisredrock, who raised the concerns ? It is obvious looking over these in context that EMsmile has been editing in both a ] and ] manner with regards to their employer, in precisely the manner that ] is supposed to prevent. --] (]) 20:11, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::If I have, I would have written exactly that. My response is only there to question how closely Simon looked at the edits brought to the discussion, and their relevance to the matter at hand. The idea that removing a paragraph cited to a single economist at a Hungarian Central Bank from a global-level article is somehow a ploy to indirectly promote an NGO employing her seems like an Olympic-level stretch to me, and the other claims are hardly more plausible. If you look at the edit history of something like ], you'll see that editors often end up adding sentences or paragraphs backed up by sources that aren't ''bad'' by Misplaced Pages's general standards - but simply ''not good enough'' or ''relevant enough'' for a specific high-level article like that, so the veteran editors end up removing these contributions soon afterwards.
			::::Given ''this'' context, I don't see a major issue with any of those edits (other than that I personally would have attempted to rescue at least one of those references by citing it in a different manner - but lots and lots of editors do the same approach of cutting everything they consider irrelevant outright, and are not ''obligated'' to do it differently). If you or Simonm223 still think there's an issue which makes them relevant to this discussion, you would have to make a stronger case for it to convince me. ] (]) 21:03, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:I have been an interlocutor, perhaps the leading one, during @]'s paid time heavily editing this page. As background, this is a very contentious topic. Her client is not precisely the one that @] provided, but is this campaign to restrict this area of scientific research. https://www.solargeoeng.org/
			:My experience with her is that she has, in each individual interaction, been collegial and reasonable. However, her work on a whole (more than 180 edits over the last few months) has significantly shifted the article's point of view, consistently in the direction of her client's perspective. I can provide specifics, if helpful. ] (]) 14:24, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			::''Adding'': Another editor compiled some examples of her edits https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Solar_radiation_modification#c-Thisredrock-20250116135800-Andrewjlockley-20250115180000 ] (]) 14:43, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			*An editor with a declared COI should ''never'' be making non-trivial article-space edits to article covered by the area of the COI; the {{tq|strongly discouraged}} wording has always been interpreted as allowing only trivial edits that exhibit no hint of bias - the reason why it's strongly discouraged is because the moment they're editing with a clear bias towards their employer's perspective they're supposed to be gone. If they've continued to make such edits after being informed of this, they should be blocked. I'd also strongly suggest going over their edits and undoing them - it's important to deny any benefit from this sort of behavior. --] (]) 14:53, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:] So...how should we then interpret the fact that the OP's username, "Andrewjlockley", appears to match this {{redacted|]}}?
			*:Now, I'll admit that he doesn't appear to have ever attempted to cite his own work in this or other articles on the subject (which, as far as my understanding of the rules go, would have been grounds for an instant topic ban.) Yet, it's fairly clear his incentives align with this article being positive towards geoengineering, and with editors who take the opposing position being marginalized. I would like to note that '''if''' is EMsmile's primary employer, then opposition to geoengineering '''is not even seen anywhere on their front page''' - nor on any of their most visible pages, such as . The contrast between this and that Google Scholar profile being primarily dedicated to geoengineering research is significant. ] (]) 17:10, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::{{tq|Now, I'll admit that he doesn't appear to have ever attempted to cite his own work in this or other articles on the subject (which, as far as my understanding of the rules go, would have been grounds for an instant topic ban)}} - that would be wrong. See ]; citing yourself is permissible within limits, provided you're doing so in appropriate contexts and not just spamming your work everywhere. This makes sense when you stop and think about it - people whose work on a subject is significant enough to be cited are the very people we ''want'' editing articles. But beyond that your accusation is off-base. Read ], and especially ] Having a ''perspective'' on a topic is not bias, and even a bias is not a COI, which is much more narrowly-defined. Academics who have written about a topic and who study it are obviously not just allowed but actually encouraged to edit in that topic area - it wouldn't make any sense to bar experts for being experts; and obviously an expert on a controversial subject is going to have a perspective. ] editing, on the other hand, is much more unambiguous; editors who are paid to edit Misplaced Pages are supposed to work through edit requests, because they don't just have a bias but an overwhelming financial imperative that pushes them to edit tendentiously. --] (]) 19:58, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Aquillion, if I recall correctly, the community explicitly rejected a prohibition - hence why the wording settled on “strongly discouraged”. If I’m wrong on this, please advise me, because I come across mentees in the mentorship program that have COI and if there is a consensus that paid/COI non-trivial edits are explicitly prohibited, then ] needs updated as well as how we explain to new editors.
			::::It’s not fair to someone to say “we strongly discourage this” and then go tell them “what we meant by that was you aren’t allowed to do it at all”. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez &#124; ] &#124; ] 21:11, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::If you read the discussion, the reason for the current wording was concerns like "what if someone just fixes a spelling error or an obvious glaring problem, they shouldn't get in trouble for that." It certainly wasn't "yeah ] editors should be able to just ignore this entirely whenever they feel like it." When someone takes an action that policy strongly discourages, the logical conclusion is that they're putting their ass on the line in terms of being absolutely correct in every other way (and should think long and hard that ''every'' edit they make that goes against that strong discouragement.) If they're not putting that thought in, or if they slip up and make a non-neutral edit? They need to stop, and if they refuse they need to be ejected from the topic area entirely. "Strongly discouraged", to me, is the strongest possible prohibition we can place on something without making it ''strictly'' barred - it is an absolutely huge deal. EMsmile's behavior shows absolutely no awareness of or respect for this - they've been constantly, and aggressively, behaving in ways that policy strongly discourages. Someone who does that is obviously going to end up blocked. --] (]) 06:13, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::I'm happy to admit that I can read the discussion in that way too, and I agree that "strongly discouraged" is the closest to "prohibited" without being prohibited. That being said, we both agree that it's ''not'' the same as prohibited. But in that case, it takes basically no time to update the way it's advertised to people - change {{tq|strongly discouraged}} to {{tq|prohibited, except for obvious, minor changes that no reasonable editor would object to (such as fixing an obvious typo, or reverting vandalism)}}. I stand by my comment that, as it stands, editors should not be punished for not knowing that "strongly discouraged" really means "virtually entirely prohibited". That's a discussion for another forum, though.
			::::::Note I'm not commenting on this user or the situation at all - but as I've had a couple mentors (through that mentor program/app/widget/whatever it is) recently who I've had to ask about COI/PAID, I want to make sure that, if I need to be ''manually'' saying it's virtually always prohibited to edit an article directly when I post templates/COI-welcome/etc, I want to ensure I'm doing that. Because I find it unfair if I (or anyone) only posts something saying "strongly discouraged" when in reality they should be told "unless it's an obvious typo or whatever, it's prohibited". What slightly concerned me/piqued my interest was your statement that {{tq|editors who are paid to edit Misplaced Pages are supposed to work through edit requests}} - but I realize that was an oversimplification based on the facts of this case. To be clear, I don't think I ''need'' to be doing anything super special/additional - your reply has assuaged my concerns that the wording there was just applying the guideline to ''this'' case, rather than a general statement.
			::::::Thanks for the reply. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez &#124; ] &#124; ] 21:05, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			*{{tqq|So...how should we then interpret the fact that the OP's username...appears to match this}} Uh, guys? Does ] mean nothing to you? - ] <sub>]</sub> 21:43, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
	{{archive top|1=Malleus unblocked, drama over. <span style="font-family:Georgia;font-size:80%;">'''/]]]'''</span> 03:25, 15 October 2010 (UTC)}}
			*:@] - I think that '''sanction should be swiftly applied'''. This is not something we take lightly. Even if they are one-in-the-same, this is still not one of the permitted exceptions to the policy for DOXING. Furthermore, this wouldn't be the first time when someone has presented themselves as an SME (by inference of their username) but is really impersonating that person either for nefarious or even just fame/fandom purposes, which might result in wholly inappropriate correspondence to the innocent real person. ]&thinsp;] 01:38, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	*{{userlinks|Malleus Fatuorum}}
			*::I've redacted the name and link and revdel'd the diffs between when it was posted and now. I'll leave it up to over admins if Oversight is necessary or if further sanctions are needed, but for now: {{ping|InformationToKnowledge}}, '''do not''' attempt to link a Misplaced Pages user with ''anyone's'' real identity, no matter how obvious it might seem, if they have not done so themselves. - ] <sub>]</sub> 01:49, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	Can a previously uninvolved admin please instruct {{user|Malleus Fatuorum}} not to use when commenting at my user talk page? Thank you, -- ''']''' (]) 23:34, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
			*:::I've posted a rather harrowing warning on their user talk page. I never had cause to use that template before. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 03:56, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	:Why, what's wrong with it? And since when did admins get to "instruct" other editors?<span style="text-shadow:grey 0.2em 0.2em 0.1em; class=texhtml">] ]</span> 23:37, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
			*::::As a mere administrator, I am unable to see whatever sort of extremely dangerous content was redacted by Oversight here, but was the thing posted here the very obvious thing that any eight-year-old could have figured out how to do within ten seconds? <b style="font-family:monospace;color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 04:35, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	::You're looking for an admin who hasn't been the target of Malleus' blunt language? Good luck with that. ] (]) 23:39, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
			*:::::I would suggest that there are some policies which we must maintain an above-average level of diligence in, especially those which can have real life, in person consequences. And over the years the ''principles of privacy'' still remain one of those absolute things that have brought down trusted veteran administrators in a single violation. The policies and the very narrow exceptions are very clear, and this is one area where you most certainly want to error on the side of caution, even if it might otherwise seem obvious right now. Tomorrow they could change those things which you believe make the correlation "obvious", to make it far less so, but that DOXING would make it a forever permanent association unless revdel is performed. ]&thinsp;] 04:57, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	::@Parrot, if you actually read it, there was some cursing it. Seems that he is also has a nice block record of that also. I don't even see why he keeps getting unblocked early, but then again it isn't my issue.--<font face="Bradley Hand ITC">]/]/]</font> 23:41, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
			*:::::Could we get an edit to ] for this specific scenario? Did not know and would not have engaged with the info provided had I known. ] (]) 05:31, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::I had to read that three times before I understood it, but thanks for presuming I hadn't read something about which I was commenting. I think that says more about you than it does me. <span style="text-shadow:grey 0.2em 0.2em 0.1em; class=texhtml">] ]</span> 23:53, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
	::::@Parrot, Sorry, I left a note on your talk page. It is my fault for not assuming good faith.--<font face="Bradley Hand ITC">]/]/]</font> 00:04, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
			=== ] back to Andrewjlockley ===
	*You're on a hiding to nothing here. Using fuck as an intensifier is not inherently incivil. Even if it were, Malleus is immune to any criticism of how he speaks. →&nbsp;]&nbsp;]<small>&nbsp;23:42, 14 October 2010 (UTC)</small>
			:I would be one of the first to admit that EMsmile has not been a perfect editor; i.e. frequently exhibiting (in my mind) undue focus on rewriting article leads to hit algorithmic benchmarks such as readability over updating article content. '''However''', that does not change the fact she has been one of a '''literal handful''' of editors to have stayed consistently engaged in ] over the past few years. This is a topic which seems to wear out editors very quickly, as I can attest from my own experience. I would therefore strongly urge caution and ensure we avoid further editor attrition that did not need to happen.
	@Jclemens, in that case, any admin other than myself stating such in a post to his user talk page, would be appreciated. -- ''']''' (]) 23:42, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
			:With that in mind, I would like to say I have '''great''' difficulty assuming ] here - not when the OP editor {{redacted|]}}, which all appear to take a pro-solar geoengineering perspective '''and''' when said editor neglected to disclose this clearly highly relevant fact on his own in the process of making this report.
	:And why would I want to kick that hornets' nest? Any of us who've been around for a while know how Malleus conducts himself, how he responds to attempts to change it, and how effective the community is ''not'' at doing anything about it. ] (]) 23:46, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
			:I am not aware of the specifics of EMsmile's paid editing, but to my knowledge, opposition to solar geoengineering is at most just one of the many positions her employer had taken - and not a particularly controversial position, since there is currently no affirmative consensus in favour of this intervention. (i.e. the ], the gold standard in climate science, is at best non-committal: see Cross-Working Group Box SRM: Solar Radiation Modification on page 2473 of of the 2nd installment of that report.) In my view, the OP has a much more direct conflict of interest with this topic than EMsmile does.
	:I can't take action myself, but it's my belief that an ] based on long-term incivility is well overdue. Nobody should be fireproof here, however well-connected they may appear to be. The break may well be when one's own supporters give up the ghost as being no longer sustainable. I'll leave it to others to decide that. ]] 23:48, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
			:P.S. This is '''really''' not how imagined exiting a 6-month hiatus. ] (]) 16:55, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
	:*Using "fuck" as an intensifier is inherently uncivil, in the context of our policy ]. I can't take action here either but accord with RHE that a RFCU might be the next step. --] (]) 23:50, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
			::With the greatest of respect @], your posts here are a distraction. This discussion is not about @], or his views, or his work outside of Misplaced Pages. It is about whether ] had a conflict of interest when they edited ], which is a very controversial topic. Given that EMSmile repeatedly boosted the "Non-Use Agreement" campaign, giving it much more coverage and visibility than other initiatives mentioned on the page, and they boosted the founder of the campaign, and the campaign and the founder both come from the organisation that pays EMSmile to edit wikipedia, there are important questions that are not answered by budget whataboutery. ] (]) 18:39, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
	::Why isn't there a rule for long term incivility anyways? Knowing admins to unblock you ain't cool.--<font face="Bradley Hand ITC">]/]/]</font> 23:52, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
			:::See ]... if you bring it up, you are open to questioning yourself.
	:::Because your version of civility might be different to another person's. <span style="text-shadow:grey 0.2em 0.2em 0.1em; class=texhtml">] ]</span> 23:55, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
			:::All of this is pertinent. ] (]) 19:39, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
	::::No, that isn't what the policy says. It says (in part) "''A single act of incivility can also cross the line if it is severe enough: for instance, extreme ] or ] directed at another contributor... can ... result in blocks without consideration of a pattern.''" I'd say this outburst is probably blockworthy in itself, when taken alongside MF's history, though it may be worth taking the context into consideration, something I have not (yet) examined. --] (]) 00:00, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
			::::I think what we have here is a situation where there may, in fact, be two editors with a COI. We know, for a fact, that {{noping|EMSmile}} has been paid to edit and did so non-neutrally. That is a contravention of WP policy. We have an allegation that {{noping|Andrewjlockley}} is a researcher who has based much of his career on writing on the topic. ] concerns aside this could, if AJL is getting paid for their work or if they are making edits that bring attention to their work, represent a COI too.
	:::::Problem is that, what happens if another admin just unblocks him?--<font face="Bradley Hand ITC">]/]/]</font> 00:03, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
			::::The question of whether either editor has a conflict of interest is not affected by whether the other editor also has a conflict of interest. As such we should probably treat these separately. If {{noping|InformationToKnowledge}} is entirely correct then this still isn't a matter of EMS is green and AJL should be sanctioned - it might be ''they both should be'' though.
	::::::Then another one will just block me again. It's happened before. What I continue to find curious is why so many admins like John are just slavering to find any reasn to block me, when I do far more for this project than they could ever dream of. ] ] 00:22, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
			::::Basically the EMS question is easy: they were paid to edit and did so non-neutrally. If AJL is also disruptive or has a COI we can deal with that separately. ] (]) 19:49, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
	{{Outdent|::::::}}
	Oh dear. That's just the arrogance that is anathema to this project, and is arguably the supposed source of your immunity. Contributing here isn't just the content you've provided, but I've also argued on several occasions that there are two dimensions to being here; content contribution and collegiality, and it is on the latter point that you appear to be missing the point. See above: "nobody is fireproof". You may have allies, for now, but that may not last. With great respect to your content contributions, a holistic and collegiate attitude might save you from perdition, but it has to be said that I don't see your usual acolytes flooding to your defence right now. Hmmm? ]] 00:38, 15 October 2010 (UTC)		:::Thisredrock: there is no problem bringing up boomerang here, as it might be relevant. It doesn't need to take away from the discussion, and editors who bring things to ANI absolutely need to realize that the expose themselves also to the same or more scrutiny for their on-wiki activity. Of course those also calling for a boomerang are also opening up their edit histories as well. That being said, I would support that idea that we should not simply pivot the discussion to AJL and forget about EMS. Rather, there are two discussions about unpermissable COI editing behaviors and they both need to be followed through on. ]&thinsp;] 20:27, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Please reread ], and especially ]. The suggestion that being a ''published academic on a subject'' constitutes a COI for the entire subject is nonsensical; and the suggestion that it could be in any way comparable to straightforward paid editing is absurd. This is not a complex point of policy - even a heartbeat's thought ought to make it obvious that we do not bar academics from editing Misplaced Pages in their area of expertise. See the final paragraph of ], which specifically encourages subject-matter experts to edit their area of expertise .--] (]) 19:58, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
	: Hmmmm is right. I'm just watching and wondering when someone is going to say anything about Cirt's long-standing approach to FAR. Oh ... Malleus finally did. ] (]) 01:26, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
			:::as per {{redacted|]}} is an independent researcher who left UCL and is working with European Astrotech.
			:::Don't think its a COI, but every participant in this thread seems worth double checking to see what is happening. ] (]) 20:36, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Yeah, based on Bluethricecreamman and Aquillion's comments and evidence I'd say it does look like there is not a COI for AJL. Of especial relevance is Aquillion's reference above to ]. ] (]) 20:39, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::FWIW, earthsystemsgovernance appears to be a research group/advocacy group that does fellowships too, and not a company perse.
			:::
			:::
			:::If there is a COI for either EMS or AJL, its subtle enough it requires some more investigation.... What is the funding situation for European Astrotech/earthsystemsgovernance? Are there corporate interests behind any of this? ] (]) 20:39, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::The issue with EMS is that they are, by their own account, a freelancer who was hired to help earthsystemsgovernance with their online profile including Misplaced Pages. EMS is, according to themself, not a researcher or anything else of the sort. ] (]) 20:45, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::yeah, that def sounds like COI... I've heard of ] before, but they are negotiated with WMF ahead of time, right? ] (]) 20:54, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::*Hello! I don't know if it is better that I stay out of this discussion and let it play out or that I explain my position? OK, let me try to explain my position: I have been editing Misplaced Pages for a long time on all sorts of topics; since several years mainly on climate change topics. I fully believe in the vision of Misplaced Pages and I believe that I have followed all the rules, even those around paid editing (I actually think more people should edit Misplaced Pages as part of their day jobs, not just as a hobby after hours...). I have disclosed that I am a paid editor for some of my editing (I also edit a lot in a volunteer capacity). I believe that I have explained on my profile page exactly how I manage any potential for ] that arises as a result.
			::::::*With regards to ] has anyone taken a look at how the article looked a year ago? It was a mess (see here the ). Has anyone looked at the discussions we've had on the talk page regarding WP:NPOV over the months? This is a controversial topic, and this controversy ought to be reflected in the article (which wasn't done well before, when it was rather one-sided). I believe my edits have in fact made the SRM article better overall, better structured, more clearly showing the pros and cons. We are not meant to take sides but to simply explain what is going on, who is discussing what. I think the discussions on the talk page went quite fine, very friendly and supportive, until all of a sudden just a few days ago when AJL appeared on the scene. All of a sudden he and a few other people popped up (who have not edited much on Misplaced Pages before and not on a range of topics either) and straight away I get attacked very aggressively on my talk page by AJL (with the threat of "If you continue to distort Misplaced Pages in this way, I'll seek to get your profile shut down."). Why? Can we not discuss this in a calm and civil manner?
			::::::*AJL and at least two of the other people who very recently showed up on the SRM page have a history of pushing for ''more'' SRM research in their day job {{redacted|encouragement of ]}}. Also, ] explains on their user profile that they are into SRM research. AJL then attacked me for having included a section on a non-use agreement (abbreviated as NUA on the talk page of SRM). This non-use agreement is about stopping all SRM research work altogether (although User:Thisredrock said "I don't think that there is any disagreement that the NUA campaign should be covered on this page). Understandably, these academics might object to the mention of such a non-use agreement in this Misplaced Pages article (given that it would be ''against'' doing any SRM research), right? It's easy to attack me now because of the paid editing aspect but shouldn't they disclose their professional stance (and potential COI or bias) as well?
			::::::*I have been editing Misplaced Pages for 10 years with over 50,000 thousand edits, quite peacefully. In my opinion, we could have had a calm, civil discussion on the talk page of the SRM article to see which sentences on the non-use agreement of SRM are justified and which are not, how criticism of Position A or Position B could be worded, rather than heading straight to the admin noticeboard, without even trying to reach a consensus in good faith. That's sad. (to clarify: I felt that the comments by ] on the talk page and in the edit summaries were not aggressive and we could have collaborated quite well on this even if we have different viewpoints. Consensus could have been reached by assuming good faith on both sides).
			::::::*Finally, as to the examples that User:Simonm22 of my editing in January 2025 in their post above, I don't see what these examples are trying to prove. If you disagree with any of those edits, why not bring it up on the talk pages of those articles? Those edits have nothing to do with SRM. I edit on a big range of topics, not just SRM. I've explained in my edit summaries why I made those particular edits, and I stand by them (thanks for User:InformationToKnowledge for taking the time to review those edits in their post above). ] (]) 21:36, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::This is an absolutely Shameless example of whataboutery or], but I'll respond anyway.
			::::::::I haven't been involved with UCL or with European Astro tech for years . I've never been paid for researching srm.
			::::::::Research is not advocacy . I don't run any advocacy service within srm . I run a neutral information service which promotes all sides of the Debate equally, and which I pay for out my own pocket . I don't care if people are editing for cash but I do care if they're doing it badly and in a biased way ] (]) 22:37, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::I wish to clarify the relationship between the (ESG, and EMsmiles's client) and the the (SRM). ESG is an academic network that host conferences, publishes a journal, has working groups -- all the usual stuff. The NUA is a political campaign that, despite its name, seeks to restrict SRM research. There is great overlap between the two endeavours, to the point that the NUA is de facto a project of ESG.
			:::::Of the NUA's three leads, one (Biermann) was , for ten years, and is the l. ESG is administratively housed in his academic department. Another NUA lead (Gupta) is , one of five authors of , and -- for what it is worth -- married to Biermann. The two of them are among the three editors of . By quick count, of the other 14 authors on , one other is on the governing board, at least eight are , at least two are , and one is among .
			:::::In the other direction, of ESG's , eight have signed the .
			:::::The only engagement with the issue of SRM by ESG's governing board, lead faculty, senior research fellows, and members of its journal's editorial board has been the NUA and its predecessor critical articles. ] (]) 08:29, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::@], would you mind helping explain how you have, what appears to be firsthand knowledge of the "relationship" between ESG and another user on here? ]&thinsp;] 14:30, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::The NUA coordination group, seems to be entirely headed up by academics too. Again, bias isn't always COI. If a PhD also volunteers for a nuclear non-proliferation club, and also decides to edit wikipedia, as long as they aren't tendetious, its probably fine.
			::::::For NUA/ESG, i think editors (myself included) are looking for evidence the groups aren't aligned with wikipedia. ] (]) 16:17, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			* Did we seriously get a redaction, and not just a revdel, but an ''oversight'' on like a hundred revisions of ANI for someone... as far as I can tell, mentioning the on-wiki username of the guy who opened the thread? Is it possible to get any clarity on this? <b style="font-family:monospace;color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 04:32, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	For fucks sake, not this thread again. Out of pure curiosity, would it have been any better if Malleus had said "I believe that you don't have a bloody clue what you're talking about."? ]<sup>]]</sup> 00:19, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	:I don't think so. There comes a time when to enjoy the picnic, you must swat the wasp. THis has been going on for far too long. ]] 00:41, 15 October 2010 (UTC)		*:This isn't the first time, and sadly will not be the last time there is a large revdel, there was one that spanned over 16 hours worth within the last month. ]&thinsp;] 04:46, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::They didn't just mention the "on-wiki username", they mentioned the person's (claimed to be) actual legal name, with links to articles about said person, when (as far as I can tell) aside from the username they had not connected themselves to the person off-wiki. Also it was called to my attention that {{user|EMsmile}} has also encouraged people to search certain user's names to connect them to off-wiki activities, which is '''also not on'''. - ] <sub>]</sub> 05:44, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	:{{ec}}Admins are neither the naughty words police, nor supposed to look away when casual abuse of other editors happens. Sometimes, the former becomes or is part of the latter.
			*:::... gonna ask in talk page of ] if we can have a list of these edge cases at this point ] (]) 05:53, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	:A lot of thin skinned people are sensitive to naughty words, which is why we try to discourage them, and sometimes have to whack someone for using them. But we really need to focus more on casual or directed abuse.
			*:::], I'd like to see a diff for that claim about EMsmile encouraging people to investigate other editors. That's a serious charge. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 07:30, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	:Malleus (if I may paraphrase some years of familiarity) seems to believe that naughty words never transgress into outright abuse, and has a higher threshold for what's abuse than the community writ large. The community does not as a whole agree with that, hence WP:CIVIL and various editor abuse blocks that have happened and will undoubtedly happen again. There is an ongoing debate about where the line should be.
			*::::{{ping|Liz}} the diff of them ''placing'' it is in the oversighted area, but the diff of my removing it is - I didn't revdel it because it didn't name any names that weren't the user's username, but it was definitely a "look up this person". - ] <sub>]</sub> 07:33, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	:IMHO - Malleus put the first foot "wrong" but the two of them were starting to engage in a bit of mutual combatantry there. The wrongness was into the grey area but not across the line in a clear manner, and was clearly more of an exasperated utterance than a focused intentional insult. These are not good, but "admins are not the naughty words police".
			*:::I don't know if I am understanding this correctly -- is the idea here that if some editor on here is named ], then it constitutes ] (e.g. so egregious that it must not only be removed from the page, and also removed from the revision history, but also made invisible even to the few hundred administrators) if somebody refers to him as "John Jacob Jingleheimer"? Or merely if someone says "I googled John Jacob Jingleheimer and the top result is his personal website saying he's the CEO of Globodyne"? Both of these seem like the kind of thing that The Onion would make up in a joke about Misplaced Pages being a silly bureaucracy, rather than an actual thing. <b style="font-family:monospace;color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 03:09, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
	:With that said - Malleus, please knock it off. Cirt took it as a personal attack. You're pushing too hard when people react to you that way. ] (]) 00:44, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
			*::::For example, my real name is pretty easy to find if you put even minimal effort into it, and I have a LinkedIn account that shows up pretty prominently if you search my name. What do the functionaries want people to do if they notice that I am aggressively defending some company and then it turns out I work for it? Like, is the official recommendation that someone makes a Wikipediocracy/Sucks thread? <b style="font-family:monospace;color:#E35BD8">]×]]</b> 03:17, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
	::Cirt didn't take it as a "personal attack" at all, he saw it as an excuse to have me blocked again, along with his mate Rodhullandemu. A rational personal looking at the circumstances, should one ever be found amongst wikipedia's administrators, might even conclude that the incivility was on Cirt's part, even though he didn't actually use a naughty word. ] ] 00:53, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
			*:::::if there was a list of examples with this specific scenario at ] think it would be easier to avoid.
	:::Then why did he come here for an opinion? And I specifically deferred blocking you, or whatever, to an RFC. I'm amazed that you have any idea what a "rational person" may think, given your history, but, I do urge you to read our article on ] before take one step further forward. As I read it, your credibility here is rapidly going down the drain, and that isn't up to me; it's up to you. ]. ]] 01:03, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
			*:::::opened a discussion on the talk page to discuss adding these edge cases.
	:::::Haven't you read the start of this thread? He didn't come here for an opinion, he came here to ask someone to admonish me. Go on, block me, you know you want you. I bet you're hovering that button even as we speak, and you're probably not alone. ] ] 01:07, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
			*:::::alternatively, maybe we need a new essay to point to? ] (]) 03:29, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
	*No thanks. When I see a rich source of the comedy of ridicule enfolding, there is no way I am going to stifle it, because professionally, I can use it. You go full steam ahead. I've been asked for another draft script, and the richness of this is beyond price. ]] 01:13, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	**The "rich source of comedy" I see is clearly not the same one as you see. ] ] 01:23, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	::::::Oh my effing god, he said "fuck". I am so offended. ] (]) 01:11, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	:::::::{{small|MF gets shlepped here so often, they're considering naming the new wing after him.}} Actually, the offensive part was saying that the other editor didn't have a clue. That's equivalent to calling him an idiot, which at one time here was considered uncivil. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 01:17, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	::::::::Bugs, you dirty so-and-so! Your mother was an elderberry and your father smells of hamsters! ]] 02:08, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	:::::::::This thread's feeling much bettah! ] (]) 02:10, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
			*I have indeffed Andrewjlockley based on ] of sending a letter to another user's employer, which is blatant ] and is absolutely unacceptable, and for their generally aggressive behavior here. We have ways to deal with COI reports, such as the COI VRT queue, that exist exactly so we aren't ] people or contacting their employers. ] <sup>]</sup>] 21:05, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
	:MF is blocked for 12 hrs, not for the original comment, but for the responses here.
			*:@] I respectfully question this block. When Misplaced Pages is being spammed by an organization, I believe it's OK for volunteers to contact the organization and ask them to stop spamming us, right? This is totally different from emailing the employer of a volunteer editor for purposes of harassment. ] (] <nowiki>&#124;</nowiki> ]) 01:17, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
	:The responses here were not ruder or more abusive, but they did constitute a denial that anyone would legitimiately take offense at his language and behavior. Whether Malleus' viewpoint on civility is right or wrong, he is aware that he's operating at the outside edge of community norms here, and knows what those norms are. To do so in the honest belief that those norms are wrong - and I don't for a minute doubt his beliefs - is not wrong. But anyone operating intentionally and knowingly outside community norms cannot reject the effect that those actions have on others, or abandon responsibility for the offenses caused.
			*::This seems like a more nuanced situation than outright spam. EMS is an experienced contributor who seems to work with this client as more than just casual employment. This felt much more like Andrew attempting to circumvent a process he didn't like, and I think his statement evidenced his disdain. EMS believed she was acting in good faith. She may still get sanctioned here, but that's no excuse to just be emailing the clients of paid editors. Maybe I'm wrong, and the community is fine with random editors emailing article subjects to get them to fire their experienced paid editors. But I think that sets a dangerous precedent. I'm not opposed to an unblock should Andrew show understanding, but I sure wouldn't mind seeing the email in question first. ] <sup>]</sup>] 02:10, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
	:It would be one thing to say "I did not intend that as a personal attack", which I think is true. It's another to say "...and nobody could take it as a personal attack, and it must be other hostile motives," which Malleus did. Obviously people can take it as a personal attack. Most of the time they won't - but when they do, it's an editors' responsibility to acknowledge that and take responsibility for it.
			*:::I agree this is a nuanced situation and for clarity I brought up spamming as a hypothetical - I'm not saying ESG is a spammer. ESG is, however, an organization that has chosen to fund a Misplaced Pages editing project. When an organization makes this choice, I think our community regards the organization as being in some way accountable for what they are funding.
	:Counterattacking, by denying that anyone could be offended and questioning motives in the complaint, IS a personal attack.
			*:::Since you haven't seen the email in question, I assume you felt that sending an email was in and of itself a blockable offense. If that's the case, then we have a culture in which when there's a dispute over a funded project, we do not try to resolve it privately with the funder as would happen in a normal relationship between organizations. Instead, the dispute is supposed to take place on a public and permanently-archived page, and we are all forbidden from informing the funder that it is even happening. Is this what you want Andrew to say he understands before you'll unblock him? To be frank, this is the kind of convention that makes newcomers and outsiders think we are nuts.
	:] (]) 01:45, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
			*:::BTW do you think there any way to get the entire EMSmile COI question referred to AE instead of ANI (climate change is a CTOP)? The former has less of a tendency to turn into an indecisive sprawl. ] (] <nowiki>&#124;</nowiki> ]) 03:53, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
	::Malleus never said such a thing as "...and nobody could take it as a personal attack, and it must be other hostile motives," (certainly not those exact words, and their spirit doesn't seem to be in his words either) and your suggestion that he did may be among the more problematic behaviors here. I've unblocked him. ] 01:48, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
			*::::i was mildly curious when i saw this ani thread mentioned at FTN. at this point,
	:::The exact quote above, responding to my first comment, is:
			*::::the amount of energy and time its taken from community seems ridiculous.
	::::''Cirt didn't take it as a "personal attack" at all, he saw it as an excuse to have me blocked again, along with his mate Rodhullandemu. A rational personal looking at the circumstances, should one ever be found amongst wikipedia's administrators, might even conclude that the incivility was on Cirt's part, even though he didn't actually use a naughty word. ] ] 00:53, 15 October 2010 (UTC)''
			*::::AE may better handle it and the nuance and figure out what should be done. if so, hope an admin closes soon. ] (]) 06:21, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::That's an explicit denial that Cirt did take it as a personal attack, and a claim that nobody should have.
	:::Furthermore, as I noted on your talk page, except in cases of obvious gross error, administrators are supposed to seek a noticeboard consensus and/or discuss with the blocking administrator prior to issuing an unblock. You failed to do either here. While the behavior and block are clearly the subject of some community dissent here, there is considerable administrator and experienced editor support for there being a problem of some magnitude above, which rules out "obvious gross error" and voids the excuse to simply wheel war the unblock rather than make any attempt to discuss first.
	:::I'm fine with undoing it if consensus here develops against me; I'm fine with you undoing it on your discretion after talking it over. I'm not fine with this unblock; it violated policy which is there for a good reason. Please revert until discussion has had time to reasonably happen here. ] (]) 02:00, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
			=== Does Wikimedian in Residence apply? ===
	:: Would there be any possibility of having a discussion about Cirt's involvement at FAR and his/her "editors' responsibility to acknowledge that and take responsibility for it"? Perhaps we need to institute a "take it to the talk page first" rule to prevent the demoralizing delist, delist, delist trend furthered at FAR by Cirt. Someone was bound to speak up sooner or later, and since it happened to be Malleus, of course we have another blockfest. A good deal of the advice being given to MF might be applied to Cirt. ] (]) 01:54, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
			EMS's situation being paid by a research org, (and ajl's claimed situation to run a research information service), to edit wikipedia seems analagous to . See also ]. In general, all editors are biased, but that's ok as long as there's no ]. In general, seems COI mostly is about bias towards the company or org you work for, or for a direct product your employer makes. ] (]) 05:50, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	::: Mild agree - see prior comment about mutual combatantry. ] (]) 02:02, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	:::: Thanks! So, does Cirt consider the affront to Malleus to be called "lazy" considering how much Malleus does for so many articles, content review processes, and other editors? So, just who was uncivil? Cirt is a prolific "delist, delist, delister" at FAR, and the tone isn't always conducive to all this collegiality we're asking of MF. ] (]) 02:06, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	I can't see any further purpose in this thread. Let's close it.--] (]) 02:03, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
			:what is the process of being a wikimedian in residence? if there is no process, is EMS technically a wikimedian in residence by default? ] (]) 06:18, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	*'''Comment, late in the game''' Malleus Fatuorum's use of vulgarity on an editor's talk page is wildly inappropriate. It violates ] and likely ]. ] 03:03, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
			::I think the way I work is quite similar to Wikimedians in Residence, so I would be happy to be characterised as such. ] (]) 11:00, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	* My comment is obviously late as well, but I just got back online. Of course his comment was inappropriate and rude. That's what Malleus does. Everyone should know that by now, and just be prepared to get over it. It's obvious he's not going to be blocked for anything, as his content contributions are enough to overshadow everything else in the minds of enough admins to render this a waste of time. He was blocked for fifteen minutes before it was overturned, which is still long enough to make that the longest block of his last three. This isn't even worth trying to fix anymore. ] (]) 03:16, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
			:My situation is totally different to @]. I just run a twitter and a substack etc. There's no overarching brand or organisation, and certainly not one I'm promoting here. I'm not even mentioned in the Misplaced Pages page on the subject AFAIK, nor are any services I run. Let's focus on what this is about. It's about @] adjusting the page '''to favour her client''' (if she was neutral it wouldn't matter). That's not the same as "this person may have some other involvement in the field", which would mean every doctor can't edit WP as they get paid for medicine. Also FWIW I'm pretty open about my ID and unless people are specifically compromising my personal security or encouraging troll swarms etc then I don't think there should be sanctions. ] (]) 08:12, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	{{archive bottom}}
			::What I wanted to point out earlier is that if I am accused of being biased (or that I am editing in a biased and non-professional way), then it's also possible that the person who makes that claim is biased as well. SRM is a controversial topic, there is no doubt around it. Millions of research money is being poured into it, from all sorts of sources (currently a lot from US tech milliardares). This is explained well in the ] article ]. I had in the past added more information on funding to that section. Then there are some groups (CSOs and NGOs but also academics) who have expressed concern about SRM. Some have even called for stopping all research. This kind of concern should be included in the SRM article. That's all. I am not saying it's right or wrong but it deserves to be mentioned as per ].
			::Would it be helpful, and allowed according to WP procedures, if I added a link to an article from 2023 which explain some activities on SRM outdoor experiments in the UK where AJL's name is mentioned (I don't want to make a mistake, or further mistakes, regarding ]- sorry if I got that wrong in the first place)? I don't really want to discuss AJL's work on SRM in depth. But it might shed line on the background to all this.
			::Personally, I think this all should have stayed on the talk page of the SRM article and good compromises could have been found. I believe I have worked well on the talk page of the SRM article with other Misplaced Pages editors in the last six months; generally reaching consensus on the most suitable wording in a good faith manner. There really is no need to attack each other. ] (]) 11:19, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Note also that AJL wrote on my talk page "I've already publicly raised this in an open letter to your apparent client" on 15 January. ] (]) 11:22, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			=== Proposal: Indefinite block for EMsmile ===
	=== Going again===
	{{archive top|1=This thread is becoming less and less productive by the second. ] (]) 23:54, 15 October 2010 (UTC)}}
	*Hard to add much to what I said here: ''''. Whatever folks think about the merits of MF's campaign, I imagine I am not the only one who tires of the trail of drama which this talented editor seems to continually leave behind him. Really at this point there's little else to say short of a RFC/U, as it seems unlikely MF will moderate his behavior which causes offense, as he feels his content work exempts him from the rules the rest of us have to try to follow. --] (]) 03:24, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	**You have no idea what I feel, and I can't even begin to imagine why you believe that you do. My position is very far from the one you describe; I have explained it to you and many others in the past, but very few seem to have either the intellectual resources or the integrity to understand it. You have ''never'' seen me complain about the incivility of another editor, except in your dreams. What I have repeatedly complained about is the inequality in the application of the civility policy in particular to administrators and non-administrators. Any fair-minded person could easily take the view that it ought to have been Cirt who received the block, as his behaviour at FAR has been disruptive for some time now, but as he's an administrator that just gets ignored. ] ] 14:23, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	***{{small|"In the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make." :) ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 15:40, 15 October 2010 (UTC)}}
	***'s where you expressed the view that your content work makes you exempt from following civility rules. wasn't very hard to find; you are complaining about the incivility of others (although you do not use the word), as recently as 30 September. You can't have it both ways, you know. You talk about integrity and intellectual resources; how about demonstrating them for us? --] (]) 16:40, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	****I can only assume that English is not your first language John, or at any rate not one that you have any real understanding of. ] ] 16:47, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	***** Since this appears to be going again, I will translate MF's post above. John has alleged that Malleus believes his "content work makes you exempt from following civility rules", yet the diff he provides shows no such thing. John also stated that "he feels his content work exempts him from the rules the rest of us have to try to follow", which is simply not true-- in my experience, Malleus is actually quite humble about his prolific work, not only on writing FAs, but on helping others write them, and he never plays that card. It does appear that there is a problem with John's English, yet Malleus has been blocked again for stating that (Malleus is some kind of a block magnet). In fact, MF's point is quite simple: a double standard exists when it comes to Malleus versus what admins can get away with, and admins are frequently far more uncivil than Malleus has ever been (John might recall a post he made once to Ceoil, another FA writer). Since I seem to be another magnet for abuse, whereby anyone can say anything anytime anywhere about me without consequences, I'm becoming increasingly sympathetic to his position (at the same time, I acknowledge my appeciation that John actually did something about the last attack on me). The recent block was unjust: John, was it really necessary to ignite this again after the section was archived? Please try to take greater care when making statements about other editors that are just not true. I also ''continue'' to note that nothing has been said about Cirt's participation at FAR, which warrants attention and is what started all of this. Oh, and the sooner y'all can let Malleus get back to work, the sooner the FAC backlog can be addressed; we've got work to do, and that is why we're here right? Malleus was doing that at FAR before the tangle with Cirt. ] (])17:45, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	*****@SarekofVulcan: I ''might'' understand your block of Malleus if the standards were the same for everyone as they are for Malleus. I have some examples. I was once told to "fuck off" in plain view of multiple admins and several arbs, yet the offender received narry a warning. I am routinely attacked on my talk page, and there are rarely consequences. The attack on Ceoil I mentioned above was far worse than anything Malleus has ever said, but nothing was done. And every time lately that I bring a serious issue to AN/I, the same offenders poison the well here with grossly disparaging and false accusations about my character and editing, yet nothing is ever said or done. Of course, those untrue statements about me are never accompanied by diffs, because ''there are none'' that back up the attacks on me. Malleus simply points out the truth-- different standards are applied to different editors, and because he states that often, he has become a block magnet, while I remain an abuse magnet. ] (]) 17:58, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	******I don't recall calling MF a troll on September 30 or any other time, but my memory is not perfect. I don't know why I would characterize MF as anything besides MF. There have been many editors that thought wikipedia couldn't survive without them. Nearly all of them have been wrong so far. :) On the other hand, some folks get way too excited over name-calling. Content is what matters here. When anyone throws obscenities at you, they can't harm you, they can only harm themselves, as they reveal that at heart they are low-lifes. Don't feel anger. Feel sorrow, and wonder what happened to them to make them so hateful. Pray for them. Someone needs to. :) ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 18:05, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	******* Exactly right, but for two things. 1) This begs the question of why Malleus is always blocked for lesser offenses than routinely occur on this very page. 2) Sticks and stones may break my bones, but because words don't hurt me, and I "take a licking and keep on ticking", the offenders continue, and article content is affected by the poisoning of the well, as admins take no action. It's high time for admins to start paying attention to the inequities, and start blocking truly uncivil and disruptive editors instead of Malleus, since he does at least contribute content, while many of them don't (and that is ''me'' tooting Malleus's horn, not to be confused with the inaccurate accusations that ''he'' does that). Ec for Black Kite-- again begs the question, since a double standard applies, and the "fuckwittery" routinely occurs right here, right under the noses of multiple admins, who always act when it's Malleus, but rarely act when it's not. ] (]) 18:12, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	********It does seem that Malleus makes himself a lightning rod and does nothing to try and improve the situation. It's a matter of what bothers you, I suppose. I don't care what somebody calls me. There are far greater problems on wikipedia than name calling is: POV-pushing, edit warring, vandalism, endless fights over stupid stuff like whether to include a comma in an article title - all those things are the bugaboo of a site like wikipedia, and it's the kind of stuff that makes people not trust wikipedia. Editors calling each other names behind the scenes is well down the critical list. Complaints about a double-standard are technically fair complaints, but in real life we often put up with a lot from people who are productive. Life is a bowl of tradeoffs. In fact, Malleus has not suffered anything from all this. If an admin gets annoyed and blocks him, he'll be unblocked ASAP. Truly useless editors who do the same stuff are sent to the phantom zone in a heartbeat. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 18:21, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	********* ah, but now you're really missing the point :) The POV-pushing, edit warring, etc is allowed to continue because bringing important matters to this page results in the offending editors launching attacks, for which there is no retribution while admins turn a blind eye, yet MF is blocked for trivialities. I'd love to see the editors who routinely make far worse attacks on me on this very page blocked when I'm trying to address POV-pushing and edit warring. Of course, I recognize admins have much more fun fighting over Gimme and Malleus, for the drama factor, while taking on true POV pushers and disruptive tendentious editors would be like ... real work. ] (]) 18:28, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	**********I do see what you're saying. I was just now, for the first time, taking a look at MF's rap sheet {{Userlinks|Malleus Fatuorum}} and I was amazed that he's still here. Most guys with that many blocks would have been gone long ago. So I don't see what MF has to complain about. If anything, he's been given a lot of latitude. You might also be onto something about admins sometimes standing at the side of the rink and watching a couple of guys slug it out for awhile. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 18:43, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	*********** Generally, if more of them would let something unfold and be sure they understand it ''before'' taking action, that would be a good thing. Instead, they block some editors quickly, without understanding the buildup or issues, while ignore much more significant issues on this very page. There is a double standard in play here, MF points it out, and it ''does'' affect content work and productive editors. ] (]) 18:48, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	************No one is forcing MF to be uncivil, he chooses to do so. If he doesn't like the consequences, he has the option to change his behavior and still be an effective editor. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 19:09, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	*************It would be a travesty of logic even to suggest that your comments exhibit double standards Baseball, more like at least triple or quadruple. I could make a very good case that you and John have been ''far'' more uncivil than I've ever been, yet you choose to try and occupy the moral high ground. I don't know what you call that where you live, but I sure as Hell know what it's called where I live. ] ] 20:25, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	**************Well, here you are, freed from yet another block, so it's pretty clear who benefits from a double standard here. :) ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 20:33, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	**************P.S. Can you show me where I called you a troll? I don't remember doing so. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 20:50, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
			Let's cut to the chase before more oversighting is required here. {{Noping|EMsmile}} is a paid editor who violated ] - encouraging other editors to look up off-wiki information on the person who raised concerns about their non-neutral paid editing. This has been disruptive - frankly edits that lead to mass requirements of oversight ''are highly disruptive'' - and that's notwithstanding the ''paid editing.'' Let's not bother beating around the bush anymore. EMsmile's contributions to the project are disruptive and should be curtailed. As they seem to think they did nothing wrong it will be up to Misplaced Pages to do the curtailing. ] (]) 13:07, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	* The main issue that is that the obvious presence of a large amounts of fuckwits editing Misplaced Pages doesn't mean that we need to point out their fuckwittery in such clear language, as it should be obvious anyway (and equally clearly, this is a general comment and not related to any of the parties involved here). Let's face it, if we'd all felt the need to do that when we first started, we'd all have been indeffed anyway. ] ] 18:09, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	::Well I'm late to the party as usual but what I see is a number of supposed adults snarling at each other but some of them have baseball bats and at a certain point in the snarling competition use them. I used to think MF was being somewhat <s>paranoid,</s> defensive but I'm really beginning to wonder. Baaaad block. There are other ways of being rude than using naughty words. For the avoidance of doubt - ownership of a baseball bat does ''not'' constitute a moral high ground. ] <sup><small>]</small></sup>] 20:37, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	:::Poor block, worse discussion, though I got a few laughs here and there.--] (]) 20:49, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	::::Despite the entertainment value, they really need to stop dragging MF here every time he gets mad at somebody. Name-calling is harmless unless it's accompanied by disruptive editing. Thick skins are good. :) ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 20:53, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	*Anyone want some popcorn? It's butter toffee... ]] 21:03, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	:::::Let's at least try and get the facts straight before this goes into archive oblivion. I never called anyone names, that would be your mate Cirt, who called me lazy. What I said was "I don't believe that you have a fucking clue what you're talking about", which I stand by. What is clear at least to me is that Cirt was the uncivil one, but I was punished for using a naughty word that GWH doesn't like, and then the saintly SarekOfVulcan came along to rub salt in the wound.
	:::::I actually think that Jophn's idea of an RFC might be a good idea, but not for the reasons that he does. ] ] 21:13, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	Nothing is going to to change here because the likes of GWH and SofV don't have a effing clue as to what is really going on and that's the way it has always been. <small><span style="border:1px solid blue;padding:1px;">]</span></small> 21:18, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	:{{small|Or, as some might say, "an MF-ing clue". :) ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 21:22, 15 October 2010 (UTC)}}
			:'''Oppose block, support ]ing EMS for almost ], ]ing AJL for aggressive interactions, warning ITK for ].'''- informationToKnowledge did the problematic edits, not EMS. EMS encouraged looking up a username but apparently that wasnt revdeled, just editted out by an admin.also this whole thing has been edge case after edge case,to the point where even admins are learning more about the outtingbpolicy.
	**MF claimed I called him a troll, but he won't produce a diff. I've got a good mind to contact Mr. Hungadunga and get him on the case. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 21:19, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
			:the wikimedian in residence description and more specifically ] suggests that groups aligned to wikipedias vision of open knowledge (universities, research groups, museums) can be allowed to edit even when paid explicitly to edit wikipedia.would like more info about EMS employer or if they did anything else like add links from their employer’s research specifically or edit their employers article . their employer so far just seems like a research group ] (]) 13:30, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	***You mistake "won't" for "can't be bothered to", as I know that producing it for you won't make a blind bit of difference to anything that's going on here. Prove me wrong and tell me what would change if I provided that diff? ] ] 21:38, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
			::From ] {{tq|WiRs must not engage in public relations or marketing for their organization in Misplaced Pages}} - this seems not to be the case here. ] (]) 14:32, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	****I would improve my behavior. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 22:25, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
			:::like aquillion says, bias isnt coi and coi isnt bias.
	****Well, ya got me stumped, son. At one second into Sep 30, you posted this statement claiming I had called you a troll within the last 24 hours. I checked my entries for the 29th and the 28th, 48 hours back, and I don't see it. So either (1) it was farther back than you recalled; or (2) it didn't happen. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 22:50, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
			:::want to see diffs where emsmile is citing their own research, editting their orgs article, or evidence their org is actually a front group or something else that isnt aligned with wikipedias values before im certain wp:coi applies] (]) 15:24, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	*****So far as I'm aware I am not not your son thank God, so please try to keep your comments on track. In what way would your behaviour be changed if I were to produce that diff in which you called me a troll? ] ] 23:27, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
			::I don't know the rules on punishing alleged transgressions on wikipedia, but personally I would want a lot more information - along the lines suggested by ] - before anyone made a blocking decision that would affect someone's livelihood. ] (]) 14:39, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	******Sorry, I had been channeling Senator Claghorn for a second there. (But as far as paternity, one never knows about these things, does one?) This is pretty much moot, since I really doubt there is a diff that you can produce. But if there is one, then first off, I won't do it again; and second, I'll entertain your top 5 additonal suggestions for improvement. Provided they're G-rated. :) ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 23:39, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
			:::Part of the thing is that Misplaced Pages is not supposed to be someone's livelihood. {{U|Bluethricecreamman}} has raised an exception allowed for employees of institutions like museums and libraries for edits that are aligned with both institutional and wp project goals but that exception explicitly disallows public relations activities. That forms something of the core to the main dispute - whether {{U|EMsmile}} was aligned with wp project goals or whether they were engaging in public relations for the org that employs them. I assert the latter while Bluethricecreamman asserts the former. Reasonable minds can disagree so additional editor feedback on that locus of dispute would be a good thing. But that doesn't change that people aren't generally supposed to be editing Misplaced Pages for pay. ] (]) 15:14, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	{{archive bottom}}
			:: Trout at this point. EMS accidentally almost outted someone, ITK did out someone by some edge case, AJL is excessively aggressive for a few edits and should be warned, not sure where COI is anymore and without some silverbullet evidence or argument, think we just move on and let the content dispute happen on talk page. ] (]) 16:22, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			:* '''Oppose''' this seems a bit excessive. I would, however, like to see ] apologize for the ] that occurred. ] (]) 15:06, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			:*:I've already apologised on my talk page earlier today. I would be happy to write a more detailed apology: just tell me where to best put it? NB that I have never violated OUTING before so I am normally well aware of this and very careful. ] (]) 15:41, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			:*'''Strong oppose''' <small>(uninvolved)</small> there were actually two people who performed different outings that were redacted, both EMS and ITK. While I think both might have been done in ''simple ignorance'' (because who hasn't googled to check for bias before), it is entirely different to do it publically and publish said information. The sanctions for such are quite clear, so I think they should be performed, but only for long enough to satisfy the penalty for such actions (eg not ]).
			::That being said, looking at EMS specifically, there is a lot to wade through that an uninvolved, unbiased SME would really aid this review. This is especially true because from a few hours of reviewing things, '''it fails a DUCK test''', and ''looks more like what we would hope from a PAID editor''. What I see is a properly disclosed ] editor, 99% live edits, 97% created pages still alive, steady-long-term edit history, 85%+ edit summaries in recent months, 20% of main space edits have been to the talk pages, their own talk page discussion remain civil (even when receiving borderline uncivil comments), regular use of PGs seemingly in appropriate (eg not wikilawyering) ways. ''These are all the opposite of what we see from typical COI/POVPUSH/PAID editors.'' Therefore, it does require a more nuanced look into their edits to ensure there isn't ] going on. This is going to require a lot more time to carefully go through their talk page discussions in full context, understanding the subject enough to weigh the merrits of their actual edits. But after an hour or two, I think there has been some cherry-picking of evidence. In think short of a thorough investigation, taking hours of an editors time, I think it will be quite difficult to call this actual disruption or rather it is more an edit war between involved editors. While this has been a very disruptive ANI, I'm not convinced its fault of the accused but perhaps still the accuser stirring the pot. :]&thinsp;] 15:22, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::FWIW, just to compare, AJL on the same metrics: <small>((I didn't even look at these until after the EMS post above)</small> 93% live edits, 95% created pages still alive, ''otherwise dormant account becoming very active this month'', 100% edit summaries recently, 44% of main space edits to talk page, no recent talk page interaction their talk page... So far nothing really wrong. However, then you discover that ''AJL account has made ONLY 16 edits in recent history before raising this ANI.'' They have been uncivil on EMS's talk page including ''very questionable'' off-wiki behavior, and never actually citing policy except once where ] was completely misrepresented. But as you look further in to the rather SHORT ''recent'' contribution history of this editor, it is ASTONISHING that their interaction on talk page with EMS was a '''grand total of 5 interactions before raising this at ANI''' (3 on article talk, and 2 on EMS talk). And in those talk messages it went from 0 to 100 between two posts. Again for someone who came out of seemingly nowhere (no more than a dozen edits in any given month ''for over 11 years'')... And this ANI was raised after a total of 16 edits in a 24-hour period. This is quacking like a either ] or ]. ]&thinsp;] 15:47, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Maybe everyone gets ]s at this point and we move on? ] (]) 16:13, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::Oh I do think we're beyond that for several reasons, as I've maintained outting is not something we should ever take lightly nor ever simply give it a pass. Beyond that AJL escalated this astonishingly fast (I would suggest in bad faith), from a (pharaphrased) "why did you do that" to "I'm reporting you to ANI and writing a letter to your employer" in the very next talk page edit, which is not only uncivil, but borderline NPA and off-wiki threats.
			:::::However, to be abundantly clear I don't think EMS is in the clear either, there is a need for a closer evaluation of the edits for '''potential civil-POV'' which is also prohibited, but I just do not see the bright line, typical POVPUSH/COI edit behavior which is typical of such paid editors. I can understand how it might come off in a quick evaluation of blanking a section like might come off is overly whitewashing, but {{tq|China's dedication to sustainable finance is extending to multiple fronts, demonstrating a holistic approach to green development. The ambitious ] (BRI), a flagship project spanning numerous countries, is increasingly embracing green finance principles, prioritizing eco-friendly investments across its vast infrastructure and development endeavors. This shift aligns the BRI with sustainability goals, emphasizing clean energy, climate resilience, and biodiversity protection in partner nations.}} but I think if you were being honest, that sounds wildly promotional to me and doesn't belong here. Can you even stuff more peacock terms in there?! Now a more appropriate thing would have been to edit it or tag it, but the removal wasn't the best choice available there. However, I would proffer that if any one of the experienced editors here removed that paragraph, nobody would bat an eye. But I think it does <u>call into need for a closer look</u>, instead of just a hasty "I didn't like they removed a paragraph" from an article they might have a COI with and thus indef! That is irresponsible. ]&thinsp;] 17:38, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			::in hindsight might be open to restrictions on geoengineering and other related topics if ems is part of a pure advocacy group
			::mostly a la liz aka only edit requests and talk page discuss for geoengineering. ] (]) 03:19, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			* '''Strong support'''. They've consistently edited mainspace to push things in a direction clearly influenced by their employer. An editor whose entire post history consists of stuff strongly discouraged by policy should not continue to edit; the OUTing is just the cherry on top of unacceptable behavior. I'm also unimpressed by the way that both this editor and those defending them have constantly tried to sling aspersions at other people in order to defend them - even if true, ] applies; it does not excuse EMsmile's own behavior. The interpretation, above, that the fact that ] only ''strongly discourages'' paid editors from making mainspace edits does not allow editors to blithely ignore the entire thing without even the slightest token lip-service; the discretion it grants is for occasional limited uncontroversial edits, not for editors to take that one line to mean that the whole policy has no applicability to them at all. I'm baffled that this is even in question - EMsmile's editing is wildly beyond the line for what could ever be acceptable from a paid editor. --] (]) 16:20, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Oppose and IMO unthinkable''' They disclosed that they have a small consultancy project from Earth Systems Governance Foundation and made 65 edits on the article in question some which may have gone into the gray area where they maybe should have done a requested edit. From a glance at their user page it looks like their PE contributions are a tiny fraction of their >60k edits in wide-ranging areas. And IMO the reporter has been pretty nasty at best on this. I've done work with PE's before and would be happy to hang out at the subject article for a few months if pinged. Sincerely, <b style="color: #0000cc;">''North8000''</b> (]) 19:18, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	== Removal of verifiable information on the Ani article ==
			*:{{tq|made 65 edits on the article in question some which may have gone into the gray area where they maybe should have done a requested edit}}: shouldn't every edit they make to this article go through an edit request? It isn't just if the edit is obviously controversial, any edit to that article (or related ones) is at the very least in the "gray area" as you call it. Yes, they have behaved better than most paid editors by at least being transparent about their COI, but it doesn't give them a free pass to make 65 edits that should have gone through edit requests.<br>I'm not sold on an indefinite block right now, given their useful contributions beyond the topic, but I would support an "edit requests only" restriction on the topic of geoengineering broadly construed. ] (] · ]) 20:44, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::Personally, I am much more concerned about '''un'''declared paid editing (which I feel is very prevalent and too prevalent) and feel that how rough we are on declared PE (doubly so for the approach by the op of this overall thread) to be a bad thing and a disincentive to declare. But if pinged and folks want, as I said before, I'd be willing to hang out at the article for a few months. And (even without any requirement for such from here) I'd strongly suggest that anything but gnome edits be submitted for someone else to put in. <b style="color: #0000cc;">''North8000''</b> (]) 00:50, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			*I'd want to see a lot more evidences/diffs to support this proposal before supporting it. There might be evidence somewhere in this long, long discussion but it should have been presented again when this proposal was set forth, especially the evidence on any attempt at "outing". Along with copyright violations, that's one of the most damning accusations that can be made about an editor and yet, I haven't seen anything to support it. If it's part of an edit that has been revision deleted or oversighted, it should still be identified so those of us with the ability to examine it can verify it. Alluding to misconduct without supporting evidence is just casting aspersions. I'm not saying that everything here is proper (hence why I haven't supported or opposed this block) but you can't make charges without providing evidence to back them up and if it is buried somewhere else in this complaint, you have to add it to this proposal. But I think given the length of time this editor has contributed to the project and the fact that they have identified themselves as an editor who is getting compensated for their work (that is, following policy guidelines, so far), there should be due process before laying down the harshest sanction that we have. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 22:18, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:Once again, I don't care about being outed because I'm using my own name. What I care about is the integrity of Misplaced Pages. I reported this behaviour on the talk page of both the article and the user and got nowhere - so I escalated it, as is the proper process. It doesn't require a long history of misconduct to justify this - because editing to promote your fee-paying client is egregious behavior, which is completely antithetical to the Spirit of Misplaced Pages. If someone doesn't stop after one warning and expresses absolutely no contrition, then escalation is the right thing to do. I was to-the-point but not personally abusive while doing so. I'm not obliged to soothe the tender feelings of those who are undermining the very essence of Misplaced Pages . I don't claim any ownership of the articles that I've created / worked on but I do care about the integrity of information on the subject - and when people are paid to bias Misplaced Pages they are acting as a sock puppet ] . I called this out by means of letter to the employer - not because I wanted to get EMS into trouble with the employer, but because I wanted to get the employer to stop doing what they were paying EMS to do on their behalf . Let's stop getting bogged down in bureaucratic process and concentrate on the key point, which is whether we want Misplaced Pages to be edited by people who are trying to promote their employer's organization or point of view. All this talk of outing and "be kind" sea lion behaviour is a total distraction. ] (]) 20:09, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::I meant meat puppet. ] (]) 20:11, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			*<s>'''Tentative oppose''' - Hard to evaluate the OUTING claim given what's been redacted, so it's up to oversighters to decide if it was bad enough for a block. Not enough evidence has been presented that we need to block for COI/PAID activities yet, though. &mdash; <samp>] <sup style="font-size:80%;">]</sup></samp> \\ 21:41, 18 January 2025 (UTC)</s>
			:*Striking not because I'm convinced an indef is merited, but because the context relies on far more jargon and understanding of the subject than I have the capacity to dive into at the moment. &mdash; <samp>] <sup style="font-size:80%;">]</sup></samp> \\ 01:51, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			*'''Support a topic ban from ESG and its affiliates''' with no opinion on indef block at this time.
			From what I can see, looks like a mission-aligned organization that could support a fruitful, policy-compliant Wikipedian in Residence position (FWIW I sometimes do paid projects as a WiR). There are a few potential hazards with any WiR role, however. One hazard is identified by the ]: "WiRs must not engage in public relations or marketing for their organization in Misplaced Pages". More broadly, we have a movement-wide (emphasis in the original).
	Two days ago, an IP user deleted, in two separate edits, a large chunk of verifiable information from the article on the medieval city of ]. , he removed a block quote and its accompanying source; and over , he removed the introductory line preceding the block quote. According to a left on the talk page of the IP, that information was supposedly restored, but after two days it still has not been re-added. I would do the edit myself, except that a topic-ban regarding this field prevents me from doing so. If it is not too much to ask, can a responsible editor re-add said information? Thank you.--] (]) 01:22, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
			Multiple editors have complained about EMsmile's edits that are in some way connected to her client. These edits merit examination:
	: You could always re-add it yourself? Also, if you want to have the page semi-protected, you should try asking at ]. One possible outcome of such a request could be that the individual IPs are warned, or possibly blocked if they have been repeatedly warned. If they have not be warned, then warning is always a good first step. Just some thoughts. Thank you. ] (]) 02:08, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
			* August 12 2024: EMsmile added a section on the NUA, which as TERSEYES points out above is closely connected to her client. All citations in the section were to primary sources affiliated with the NUA.
	: I re-added it. Good luck Marshall! ] (]) 02:24, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
			* Nov 18, 2024: EMsmile added the name of Frank Biermann, her client's founder, to the SRM article.. When you have a COI, this kind of edit is PR/marketing. Her edit summary was ""copy edits, added wikilink", i.e. there was no indication of substantial or COI editing in her edit summary.
			* Jan 15 2024: When challenged about the NUA-related content, EMsmile responded with a ~600 word wall of text, followed by a ~400 word wall of text, followed by several shorter comments, all about advocating for more NUA content than other editors wanted. Tne persistence and sheer amount of text are not in line with ] , which says that COI editors must be concise and mindful of not wasting volunteer editors' time. Several of her comments also cut up another editor's comment, in violation of ].
			When others complained about her edits and her COI, EMsmile accused them of making personal attacks." I did not see any personal attacks in the discussion to that point. The criticism had been very civil IMO. Making unfounded accusations of personal attacks turns up the heat and is uncivil.
			EMsmile, I am concerned about the justifications you provide for editing about your client: "{{tq|And regarding my situation as a paid editor in this case: I fully understand that this could raise red flags for folks. However, I've been editing Misplaced Pages now for over a decade; most of my 50,000 or so edits in a volunteer capacity and many in a paid capacity (for various clients). I have no intention to throw overboard my professional judgement for a short term consultancy and to start neglecting Misplaced Pages editing policies.}}." There is no execmption in the COI guideline for experienced editors. All parts of the COI guideline apply to everyone, including you. Trying to be unbiased does not make you unbiased when you have a COI. You also justify your advocacy by pointing to your transparency. E.g. when called out on adding the founder's name to the SRM article, you wrote, "{{tq|That is correct, and I've stated this very clearly and transparently on my user profile page.}}" Transparency is good but it's only one part of the COI guideline. Transparency does not make it OK to use Misplaced Pages to advocate for your client.
	Thanks buddy. I appreciate it.--] (]) 02:31, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
			It is obvious to me that EMsmile should immediately stop all forms of editing about her client and its founder. ] (] <nowiki>&#124;</nowiki> ]) 01:09, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
	== Can someone put an end to this? ==
			I looked at ] last night just to better understand the organization. It came across to me as promotional. I looked at the history and my heart sank. EMsmile has made 113 edits to the page, all within her time of being paid by ESG. She has according to the authorship statistics '''written 73% of the article''', in violation of the COI guideline. This is absolutely not what Wikipedians in Residence are supposed to be doing. ] (] <nowiki>&#124;</nowiki> ]) 16:56, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
	{{resolved|1=No need for this, it's a simple mistake. <span style="text-shadow:#2f4f4f 0.10em 0.10em 0.10em"><font color="black">]</font> <sub><span style="text-shadow:#ffd700 0.14em 0.14em 0.14em"><font color="black">]</font></sub></span> 02:12, 15 October 2010 (UTC)}}
	Here I am, reading Misplaced Pages in the local cafe, and the new messages light pops up. So, I go to my talk page, and read the warning, which is over a year old. Realizing that as I am working on a shared IP, that this message is certainly not intended for me, nor is intended for the other current users of the IP, I replaced the message with the standard shared IP template. The next thing I know, the new messages lights up yet again. What do you know, my edit has been reverted. I remove the message again and leave a message on the editor's talk page explaining the issue. While I am in the middle of adding this message, bang, the new message light pops up again. What do you know, I have been reverted yet again. Isn't there a policy against this sort of thing? (1) A user removing a warning from his/her talk page is indication that the message has been read, and there is no need to revert it, (2) A warning on a shared IP page that is years old certainly does not need to be re-added again and again. It is extremely unlikely that this is the same editor. I am afraid that IPs are just not treated with the same respect as users who log in. I was actually about to log in when I got the new messages light, and I was simply trying to clear the warning since it clearly did not apply anymore. Thank you. ] (]) 01:55, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	:Good grief, I just made a mistake. Another user has already pointed me to ]. Not knowing that policy was why I had asked another user to remove his warning off my talk page (he made a mistake). I did not know I was allowed to remove my own warnings. I am only human. Thank you. ] (]) 02:07, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	:: Okay, then this is closed? Somewhat ironic (or hypocritical) considering that you are frequently blanking your own user talk page. ] (]) 02:09, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	:::{{editconflict}} Oy vey. I'm just going to mark this as resolved. RE was acting in good faith, and most users are surprised to learn that IPs are allowed to clear warnings from their own pages. Seems counterintuitive. No harm intended, no drama needed. <span style="text-shadow:#2f4f4f 0.10em 0.10em 0.10em"><font color="black">]</font> <sub><span style="text-shadow:#ffd700 0.14em 0.14em 0.14em"><font color="black">]</font></sub></span> 02:11, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	::::Thanks Sven. And FYI, I only restored the comment once, as can be seen from the history in the IP's talk page. I had messed up my edit somehow and then fixed it. Also, according to the history, you complained here right after I did it. <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 02:16, 15 October 2010 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
			== User:CoastRedwood - Harassment ==
	== Disruptive Edits ==
			{{atop|1=Blocked for a week and warned not to do this. Good grief. - ] <sub>]</sub> 21:39, 16 January 2025 (UTC)}}
			*{{userlinks|CoastRedwood}}
			Repeated personal attacks, harassment and not following behavior policies by CoastRedwood. Despite multiple warnings from multiple editors to address the behavior, CoastRedwood has edited other users' pages, engaged in personal attacks, made uncivil comments and is not willing to heed constructive feedback. Personal attacks/harassment - , , and editing others' userpages' , , , , , . ] (]) 13:24, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Yeah, that's not great. A weird ] mentality toward... emojis? Mentions of anthromorphic foxes? And, frankly, the specific personal attack of ''degenerate'' used in that specific context is... it suggests a disruptive editing mindset. I don't know. Maybe their non-disruptive work on animal species has enough value that we don't go directly to a ] block (though I am on the fence about that) but, at the very least, they need a topic ban from editing other editors user pages. ] (]) 13:36, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
	I have noticed that ] has been repeatedly adding every concert to appear at particular venues across the world. They have been asked several times to cease and desist by several editors. Yesterday, the user took a strange turn and started deleting entire concert content from several pages. Some of these that they did delete do need some paring, but not to the point of deleting the entire content. I consider this to be disruptive editing. So I am asking that something to be done to stop this. Here are the diffs that I have noticed, in the last 50 edits the user has made:
			::This is being dealt with on CoastRedwood's talk page by sysops, and escalating it to AN/I is premature.—]&nbsp;<small>]/]</small> 13:43, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
	]
			:::Please see the timeline of the edits made. CoastRedwood is still approaching both the editors after two admins have already tried explaining it to him. was made recently after multiple warnings. ] (]) 14:21, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
	]
			::::Thanks for pointing out that diff. I didn't see it. That was after my formal warning, so I went ahead and blocked them for a week just now. –] <small>(])</small> 14:28, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
	]
			:Thanks everyone! I'm not sure what caused this user to make such remarks against ArkHyena and I; also thankful for the quick actions taken while I was a bit busy. Some of the content they removed from my userpage was only intended to promote humor and just for a little fun, and their rationales for it sound questionable, at the least. ~ ] ] 14:56, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
	]
			::Ah, but that was your first mistake. You see, fun is not allowed on here :P
	]
			::<sup><sub>]</sub></sup>
	]
			::] (]) 17:31, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
	]
			{{abot}}
	]
	]
	]
	]
	]
	]
	]
	]
	]
	]
			== User:Earl Andrew ==
	There are likely countless other examples of this. However, these are just a few that have been deleted. ] (]) 02:56, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
			{{atop|1=Heat exceeding light. Legend of 14 is advised that ANI is the ''last'' resort for dispute resolution, not the first, and in the future should exhaust other options before coming here. - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:10, 16 January 2025 (UTC)}}
	:<small>Note: I fixed a few of the links for you. ] (]) 02:58, 15 October 2010 (UTC)</small>
			*{{userlinks|Earl Andrew}}
	::Not only are these laundry lists way too long, but there is generally not a single reference. I don't have a problem with this editor removing these long lists that they've added because they should not have been there in the first place on the articles I've seen, but the editor refuses to respond on any talk page (including their own) and never uses edit summaries. ] (]) 03:36, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	:::It has been clearly demonstrate that that Shyguy1991 has possibly not fully understood Misplaced Pages policies and/or how to implement them. Blatantly removing every informal request or warning template from their talk page within seconds does not remove them from history, even if they believe it does. On unfolding the history it will become clear that they either need help, or that they simply do not wish to be part of the community. Either way, if their edits really become disruptive within the interpretation of our rules, or if they still refuse to provide ES for their hundreds of edits, then a procedural block will be the only answer. --] (]) 05:14, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
			Earl Andrew is using personal attacks against me for leaving notices on ]. It is interfering in those discussions.
	:::: I doubt it's that the user doesn't understand Misplaced Pages policies. Based on the user's behavior and edit patterns/habits, it's more likely that the user doesn't care. I know we're supposed to assume good faith, but this user's behavior, at least to me, indicates that the behavior is/was intentional. Somehow, I stopped this user from adding more performers to his long list in ]. But he has continued on a bunch of other articles. -- ] (]) 10:28, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
			Diffs:
	== Threat of suicide ==
			*https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard&diff=prev&oldid=1269826037
			*https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard&diff=prev&oldid=1269826716
			] (]) 16:26, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Did you try discussing with Earl Andrew about supposed personal attacks before coming here? ] <sup>(]) (])</sup> 16:36, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			::No I did not. How does one respond directly to disrespectful comments and accusations of bad faith, followed by a suggestion that you should do their job under ] on wikipedia, because I have no idea what to say to them. I wouldn't normally resort to ANI over these comments, but in my opinion these comments are inferring in discussions on ]. ] (]) 16:52, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I would ask for an apology directly if I was getting personally attacked. ] <sup>(]) (])</sup> 16:54, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::I felt like asking for an apology in this case would likely escalate the disputes in question, and could be seen as provocative in this case. ] (]) 17:09, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::Does opening an ANI thread for {{tq|urgent incidents or chronic, intractable behavioral problems}} not escalate the disputes in question? ] <sup>(]) (])</sup> 17:11, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::I don't think anything I've done in this thread could be seen as taunting or baiting. I think a reply like "Please apologize for your personal attack" would be seen as taunting. ANI escalates the dispute, but in a way that did not unreasonably increase the chance of incivility. ] (]) 17:16, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Neither of those is a personal attack. The second is more critical of you than the first, but still a long ways from an attack.--] (]) 16:37, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Accusing me of making bad faith edits, without offering any evidence to support bad intentions is a personal attack. The first diff is more of a disrespectful comment than a personal attack, I could've been more clear. Both comments are bad for the discussion. ] (]) 16:42, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::You are removing non contentious information from a lot of articles, and claiming they are contentious. That to me feels like bad faith editing. Up for interpretation for sure, but in no way did I mean it as a personal attack. -- ] - ] 17:13, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Provide diffs. I can't respond to unsubstantiated claims. ] (]) 17:17, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Why were you deleting ]'s birthplace? ] (]) 16:58, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Can you please explain how this question relates to the topic of Earl Andrew's comments? If understand why you're asking the question I'll be able to give a better answer. ] (]) 17:11, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I see no personal attacks in the diffs you provided. I would say that Earl calling you a {{tq|destructive force}} wasn't very ], but ] tells me that those comments weren't "personal" attacks. ]<sup>]</sup> 17:31, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::"These examples are not exhaustive. Insulting or disparaging an editor is a personal attack regardless of the manner in which it is done."
			::::-]
			::::I never called him a "destructive force". ] (]) 17:34, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::Sorry, I misread your comment. The quote from WIAPA still stands. ] (]) 17:37, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::I agree, that might have been a personal attack, but also please read ]. ANI should have been the last resort for you. ]<sup>]</sup> 17:48, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::See above comments for why I did not think I had other options. Also, see how even after being aware that I found the comments insulting/disparaging, the user continued to make them without substantiation https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#c-Earl_Andrew-20250116171300-Legend_of_14-20250116164200. ] (]) 17:54, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::''Insulting or disparaging'' is very different than having a disagreement. While WIAPA is ''not exhaustive'', neither of those diffs area anywhere in the same ballpark as the other examples -- this is a million miles away from {{tq|Abusive, defamatory, or derogatory phrases based (common discrimination classes)}}, {{tq|Comparing editors to Nazis, terrorists, dictators, or other infamous people}} or threats. There is no incivility in asking "how is something contention", even if it is prefixed with "how on earth"... If you feel insulted or disparaged because someone questioned the validity of your contributions, you need to grow a thicker skin. Also did you even read the section on top about ''Before posting''? Which of those have you actually attempted before coming here? Also as someone else has mentioned you should be cautioned about boomerang, meaning that your own actions also have a spotlight on them and you have volunteered put your own edits and conduct up for scrutiny. ]&thinsp;] 18:06, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::No one has linked to any of my edits here. There's a difference between some criticizing an identified edit and making disparaging remarks about unidentified edits by a named editor. I can't defend the edits that the user has a problem with because they have not been clearly identified with me. When an edit I made that was identified was brought up here, I did my best to answer the questions.
			::::::I did not raise every issue here on the users talk page. When I tried to raise issues on the editor's talk page see ], I got called unconstructive. When I went to the forum ], the editor escalated by disparaging me as editing in bad faith. I had reason to believe that further discussion on the talk page would go nowhere, so I posted here under ], instead of making what I felt would almost certainly be another unproductive talk page discussion. Given that since making this notice, the user has continued to make unsubstantiated claims about my character, I think I had the correct judgement. ] (]) 18:28, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::You have not addressed the question how the diffs you provided of EA's behavior is anywhere in the ballpark of the criteria of WIAPA. You were the one who claimed as such, so the onus is on you to substantiate in what way where their comments violating the policy on personal attacks. I would even have a hard time considering them uncivil, but even if they were, uncivility is quite a different matter than a personal attack. So which aspects of ] do you feel EA's comments closely resemble? ]&thinsp;] 19:18, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::I believe the comments about me acting in bad faith are disparaging remarks about me and therefore qualify as personal attacks. ] (]) 19:24, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::I also think the comment about "How in the world" is an insult against me given the context is, it was promptly followed by another comment by the same user accusing me of bad faith. I hope this explanation is satisfactory. ] (]) 19:39, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::Suggesting my statements are a "personal attack" on you carries about the same weight as me suggesting this whole discussion is a personal attack against ''me''. You are grasping at straws. If you're going to pick fights with everyone who dares cross your path (I see you've bombarded ]'s talk page now), you may find yourself blocked. And no, that's not a threat, ''I'' am not going to block you, as that would be a conflict of interest.-- ] - ] 21:37, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::::The only possibilities here are "extremely stupid" or "troll". Either way it's a clear case of disruptive editing. I suppose I can't do the banning myself either, now. Oh well. ] (]) 21:45, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::::I finding Dispute resolution confusing. This convo should be closed because I didn't try to resolve all my disputes with you first, https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#c-The_Bushranger-20250116213500-Legend_of_14-20250116190800. But, also now that I'm trying to resolve concerns as I become aware of them with another user outside of ANI, I should also be blocked for that. Don't use ANI, use the talk page for all issues first, but also don't keep posting on the talk page. Can you please clearly state the process I should go through to resolve disputes? ] (]) 21:48, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::::I'm not suggesting you should be blocked, I'm saying that if you continue with this petty behaviour, someone will inevitably block you. Learn from this experience and stop trying to pick fights with people.-- ] - ] 21:54, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::I'm not trying to start fights with others though. I've never directly commented on another's character. I've tried to focus on the content of the articles or discussion pages comments, not why such actions were done or the character of the person doing them, and on the relevant policies. What are you saying I should do differently? ] (]) 22:04, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::::::::You do realize you were the one who instigated this ANI case, correct? You're actually lodging a formal complaint about a different editors behavior. It's a little late to suggest you're simply an innocent bystander. ]&thinsp;] 22:42, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::::::::I'm not saying I'm a bystander. I'm not the one who made uncivil comments on ], which is what started this "fight". ] (]) 22:46, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I have no opinion on this dispute, but just in case you're unaware, the behavior of anyone participating in these threads, whether as someone who's reporting, being reported, or even just commenting, may be scrutinized for wrongdoing. See ]. ] (]) 17:40, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::I'll give the answer here I gave on ], I removed uncited claims about immigration status. To add additional information beyond what I said there, Canada's immigration system has somewhat recent come under fire for being used to suppress wage growth https://www.newcanadianmedia.ca/temporary-immigration-programs-are-pushing-down-wage-growth-in-canada-economists-say/, so I removed the uncited content because for that reason it could be considered contentious. ] (]) 17:49, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:I think it is relevant to include an instance on ] where the user says they're "suspicious of this user's true intentions", without linking to any edits. https://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Earl_Andrew#c-Earl_Andrew-20250116180500-Tarlby-20250116174800 This happened after I initiated the ANI. ] (]) 18:12, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			::], what sort of resolution are you seeking here? Because so far, while some editors acknowledge that Earl Andrew could have been more civil, no one has agreed with you that these are personal attacks. Are you looking for validation, an apology, a chance to vent, or some kind of sanction because the latter won't be happening based on the response here. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 18:54, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Another user has agreed that these could be personal attacks https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#c-The_Corvette_ZR1-20250116174800-Legend_of_14-20250116173700. I was hoping for a retraction of all the unsubstantiated claims about me acting in bad faith and comments that the user is suspicious of my intentions and an interaction ban with me, and a restriction against making comments about my character anywhere on Misplaced Pages. ] (]) 19:08, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::That is not going to happen. is not ''remotely'' a personal attack. could be more ] but is ''also'' not a personal attack. And again, you '''must''' attempt to resolve issues '''before''' coming to ANI, which you by your own admission chose not to do. Strongly suggest this be closed as there is nothing to do here. - ] <sub>]</sub> 21:35, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
			== Chronic refusal to comply re edit summaries/copious, tendentious editing ==
	. ]&nbsp;<sup></font>]]</sup> 03:23, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	:Please do not revdel the threat. ]&nbsp;<sup></font>]]</sup> 03:25, 15 October 2010 (UTC)		{{atop|1=Blocked for a week. - ] <sub>]</sub> 17:49, 18 January 2025 (UTC)}}
			Despite years of requests by numerous editors to leave edit summaries, ] makes another apology, another promise, leaves cursory remarks for a minority of their edits for a short while, then back to highly prolific editing with no explanations. (Raised repeatedly in ] (most recently ]), (blanked, apparently in a botched archiving attempt) and ].)
	::Suggest to the user that he not leave a mess and get on with your life. ]] 03:27, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	:A CU needs to call the police and give the guy a reality check. That's all. <span style="font-family:Georgia;font-size:80%;">'''/]]]'''</span> 03:28, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	: Just ignore, troll ] <sup>]</sup> 03:30, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	::We can't risk it. May also be related to {{user|Sebdog69}} (see Trollwikiday's now-RevDel'd edit on Pepsi). <span style="font-family:Georgia;font-size:80%;">'''/]]]'''</span> 03:33, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	:: I don't see a suicide threat, also I saw the original edit of Pepsi Max while I was doing some vandal fighting, I was beat by the revert and placed the editor on AIV Sebdog should be blocked. ] <sup>]</sup> 03:37, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	:: Nevermind I see it first sentence. Someone should tell him to calm down, I 100% sure he's lying look at the username he wanted to be blocked. But a checkuser scare should make him stop trolling. ] <sup>]</sup> 03:39, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	:Yes, he just emailed me saying "that it was all a bit of a prank" and that he was not serious in regard to the suicide. I don't think it was ever completely serious, but it doesn't hurt to err on the safe side. Now, though, it's probably not worth bothering about. <span style="font-family:Georgia;font-size:80%;">'''/]]]'''</span> 03:58, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	::A suicide threat is ''not'' something to joke about. ]&nbsp;<sup></font>]]</sup> 04:07, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	:::Tell that to the ]. <span style="background-color: #0000FF">] ]</span>&nbsp;<font size="1">]</font> 04:09, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	::::Sigh. Whatever happened to ''don't feed the trolls''? ] (]) 04:22, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	:::::"" Contacting the authorities in this case as a real suicide threat? Not necessary... ] ] 04:33, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	::::::Yes, but lets do it anyway. The resulting medical bill ought to be large enough to keep this troll from joking about this ever again.--] (]) 04:59, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	:::::::Slap a {{tl|Suicide response}} template on his page somewhere, and let him get on with celebrating "International Troll Misplaced Pages Day". He wouldn't really "off" himself, because then he would miss out on the "festivities" he's alluded to... ] ] 05:16, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	:How likely is a user calling himself "Trollwikiday" to be sincere about anything? ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 15:26, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
			This would be problematic if the edits were not contentious but a high proportion are. Currently they are . (See again the iterations of their talk pages referred to above, ] and ], re OR, inaccurate citation, excessively lengthy quotes, overwhelming articles with peripheral or off-topic material, neutrality concerns, primary and self-published sources, ENGVAR, MOS, slow warring, blanking of maintenance tags, editorialising, anachronism.)
	Look. Lets short circuit the usual nonsense. There are a set of editors who feel that most suicide threats on wiki are attempts to troll editors and do not invoke some responsibility to call the authorities. There is another set that feels every threat is a potential loss of life or health (since many failed suicide attempts result in permanent damage). If see a reasonably credible threat, post it here, DONT delete it and ''someone'' will contact the authorities. But agitating one camp versus another is pointless. ] (]) 18:55, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	:Is there a policy on this kind of thing, or is it handled on a case-by-case basis? ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 19:06, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	::I don't know. If there is a policy it should be WMF handling it, not joe admin. ] (]) 19:10, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	:::Seems like every time one of these seemingly external problems come on-wiki, everyone starts to sound like Scarlett O'Hara: "Where will Ah go? What will Ah do?" Maybe this is a question for Mr. Wales? ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 20:06, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	::::Eh. I'm of two minds. first, google "WP:TOV" and see what the top link points you toward. That should give you an idea of how intertwined these threats are w/ trolling. Second, I really do think this is the sort of thing best left to people with @wikimedia.org email addresses. There is only so much I am willing to do for WP, and firing off emails or calling local PDs is not high on my list. I have no idea what the law says (or which jurisdiction is appropriate). The police have no reason to believe that an @gmail.com address is a good contact point. And I'm unwilling to bear the risk, however small, that someone didn't want their suicide threat to impact their professional life and sues me for reporting it (this is a bit intertwined with the law bit, but worth mentioning by itself). So the present equilibrium where concerned editors forward this sort of thing to checkusers is probably fine ''for those users'', but if the WMF wants to get serious about handing cases like these, they ought to step in and hire someone who doesn't have all of the reservations that a volunteer editor might have. ] (]) 22:24, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	Just for any of the editors above who are not aware of it or did not refer to it before acting or commenting, and perhaps more relevantly, for anyone else reading who might have to deal with potentially more serious instances in the future, there is an essay on this, at ] --] (]) 22:34, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
			] but closed down after , later when there was no compliance.
	== Death threat ==
			The abundance and extent of edits and the almost total omission of explanation makes it impossible to assess the editor's copious work. If the much-repeated excuse of absent-mindedness is to be taken seriously, it indicates instead a significant and chronic competence issue. They either have no ability or no intention to engage meaningfully to explain their editing. ] (]) 22:28, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
	http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Benjamin_Breeg_%28Person%29&action=historysubmit&diff=390816883&oldid=390816799 ] (]) 03:44, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	:Why was the page deleted? The authorities need to be able to see this. ]&nbsp;<sup></font>]]</sup> 03:47, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	::]. I do think it should be undeleted for now, though. <span style="background-color: #0000FF">] ]</span>&nbsp;<font size="1">]</font> 03:48, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	:::Credible threats should be reported. If you feel this threat was credible then reply here. I do not, and apparently neither did the admin who deleted it. I have indef'd the account though. ] 03:50, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	:::No, we do not undelete death threats, under ANY circumstances. If the authorities wish to know exactly what was posted, then that is an administrator's job to email them with said information. –] 03:53, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	::::I missed something? If only I had some power tools--I made that talk page, explaining why I nominated the article for speedy deletion as a hoax. But I have two mean, mean dogs to protect me. You'd be surprised at how terrifying a ] can look in the middle of the night. ] (]) 03:55, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	::::True... as I think about it, that could potentially be bad PR in the future. <span style="background-color: #0000FF">] ]</span>&nbsp;<font size="1">]</font> 04:01, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	::::::: <small>Buy yourself a Spaniel. Anybody comes to the door/window, that dog is sure to pee immediately - and bad guys hate stepping in dog pee on the way into the house.</small> (]<span style="border:1px solid black;">'''&nbsp;]&nbsp;'''</span>]) 11:44, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	::::::::: <small>Does that mean that erstwhile good guys will be tempted to break into your spaniel guarded house because, due to the ], they delight in stepping in dog pee? ] (]) 12:50, 15 October 2010 (UTC)</small>
	:::::{{ec}}x2 I'm the admin who deleted the page. I'm not sure that the threat was on the page when I started to delete it—the edit and the deletion are both time-stamped 03:44 UTC. If I had noticed it, I would have brought the matter here. —&nbsp;]&nbsp;<sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub> 04:02, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	:I'd like to comment here ... don't worry about the authorities being able to see the threats, when they're notified. I assure you, the appropriate authorities know pretty well how to get in touch with the Foundation, and we will work with them to provide any information they need, within the guidance of our legal counsel. Let's not ever assume something SHOULDNT be deleted so that the police can see it - it's a better thing to assume that they'll know how to find us and see it. Thanks... ] (]) 18:44, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
			:I haven't looked into this in detail but I warned K1ngstowngalway1 about edit summaries on 25 November 2024, got a promise to improve, and note that they are still only using edit summaries occasionally and omitting them for substantial edits, eg {{Diff|Jacobitism|prev|1269555399}},{{Diff|Jacobitism|prev|1269553173}},{{Diff|William Davies (priest)|1268928050}}, to pick just three recent ones. ] <small>(])</small> 11:28, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	== TungstenCarbide ''again'' ==
			::For more regarding problematic editing at Jacobitism, see ]. ] (]) 20:58, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Yes, recently come across this editor at ], which prompted me to look at their other edits. I would say that lack of edit summaries is the least of the issues (albeit it does seem to be some sort of passive-aggressive deliberate stance - I don't buy that they consistently 'forget' to do it.) Their editing pattern appears to be to introduce tendentious POV edits based on ] and ] with frequent misuse of ] sources. They ], often to concepts which are anachronistic or make a POV connection. They've been trying to make these sorts of changes to Jacobitism since last July and won't engage on the talk page. Their had the edit summary {{tq|Undid revision, as certain editors seem to have an emotional attachment to Whig history and to be unwilling to tolerate the use of more recent historical scholarship that places the conflicts of the era in a different light and shows that today's Britain represents a compromise between Whig and Jacobite ideology.}}. The misuse of sources and the links in the edits they want to restore in that revert seem typical of their editing approach having looked at what they have been doing elsewhere. ] (]) 16:07, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::I agree entirely, including that the lack of edit summaries is but one of very many problems in their editing, having routinely encountered all the others you note. My reason for highlighting edit summaries is that it is the most abundantly demonstrable indication of the chronically tendentious nature of their editing, upon which we can agree to act. (FWIW, I did raise the broader issues and also last August but these discussions did not result in sanction.)
			::::The following are all talk page discussions where the leaving of edit summaries has been requested, or their omission noted, many featuring repeated reminders. They start in 2006 in their ] incarnation, ], ], ], ], then in the current id of ], , , , , , , , , , , (trawled from the edit history) and ], ], ], ], ], ] from the current talk page. More than enough in itself to impose a block. ] (]) 17:27, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
	{{resolved|Whacked with a banhammer. ] (]) 04:57, 15 October 2010 (UTC)}}
			*'''Comment''': I see they have never been blocked. I'd suggest a short block - a week? - for disruptive editing. Anyone disagree? ] (]) 16:16, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
	{{user|TungstenCarbide XXXI}}
			*:I agree. ] (]) 16:37, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
	Can someone add this guy to the title balcklist? ]&nbsp;<sup></font>]]</sup> 04:36, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
			*::Certainly. ] (]) 17:14, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
	:Not sure that will help. He'll just start naming his accounts something else. --]''''']''''' 05:00, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	::Rather than blocking the creation of the account, could an edit filter block him from editing? (Almost serious. ) — ] ] 09:20, 15 October 2010 (UTC)		*] is '''blocked''' for one week. ] (]) 17:22, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
			== Block request: IP user edit-warring and not discussing edits. ==
	== ], redux ==
			{{atop
			| result = IP warned against edit warring. ] (]/]) 02:48, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			}}
	{{user|Xanderliptak}}
			IP user ] is engaging in edit-warring on ] regarding the vehicle being either "operational" or "under-development." Another user started a discussion on the talk page and I participated in it and referenced the discussion when reverting the IP user's edit. The IP user has since reverted the edit again and not participated in the discussion. I can't contact this user further as they are not on an account and do not want to continue an edit-war. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 02:32, 17 January 2025 (UTC)</small>
	I saw edit on my watchlist, and reverted it, as I see no reason for the removal.
			{{abot}}
			== User:PopPunkFanBoi69 is being highly disruptive (battleground, attacks, edit war) ==
	I then looked at ] and saw a problem. He is systematically removing all images he has uploaded to Commons from use here, and has requested speedy deletion of same on Commons (which cannot obviously be dealt with here; I included this detail merely for background). Not wishing to create intense drama, I have ''not'' reverted the latest edits; I believe this is symptomatic of behaviour that has been going on for . (], from almost a year ago, very similar situation). Namely, this user appears to be labouring under the misapprehension that he gets to control use of images he has created after he has uploaded them. Beyond that I cannot speculate as to motivation.
			{{atop
			| result = Blocked. SPI still open. ] (]/]) 02:55, 17 January 2025 (UTC)<br><br>To noone's surprise, PopPunkFanBoi69 was indeed a sock. - ] <sub>]</sub> 03:35, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			}}
			{{userlinks|PopPunkFanBoi69}}
			I'm not sure that User:PopPunkFanBoi69 is ]. Their edit history consists of a lot of unsourced content additions/changes, such as ], ]. They have made talk page posts that are personal attacks or ] style, such as ] (battleground), ] (attack).
	I am honestly not sure what the course of action here needs to be. This is clearly problematic, and repeated, behaviour. User has been . →&nbsp;]&nbsp;]<small>&nbsp;05:29, 15 October 2010 (UTC)</small>
	:I jut came across this through a page on my watchlist. I note that Xander and Roux have some history, so I thought I would, as an uninvolved party, concur with Roux's reading of the situation. As it happens I think the one example of an edit that Roux provides is not a good one because (for unrelated reasons) that content should not be there. But the broader issue still stands. ] (]) 05:34, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	::The edit I provided is simply the one I ran across first (I use a hack on my watchlist to only display changes since the last time I loaded the page, then scroll to the bottom and work my way up). There were other edits, but seeing that there was a pattern I refrained from reverting them all and instead brought the issue here. Agreed that the specific first edit I provided can and should be discussed on the relevant talk page; the general issue is what needs to be examined here. →&nbsp;]&nbsp;]<small>&nbsp;05:42, 15 October 2010 (UTC)</small>
			Despite being warned by ] (]) for edit warring on ']', they continue to restore their edits without consensus (]).
	I'm aware of the past history; Roux has suffered quite a bit of abuse in this interaction. I would say Roux is correct that there is a behaviour issue, but I've also seen XL change behaviour when approached the right way. The core issue currently seems to be a licensing dispute. ] (]) 06:04, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	:To be clear I did not attempt to discuss this with Xanderliptak, as discussion with him has proven to be less than fruitful. I figured better to gain the attention of uninvolved people. →&nbsp;]&nbsp;]<small>&nbsp;06:16, 15 October 2010 (UTC)</small>
			One final thing that made me proceed to making this AN/I report: check out ] on User:PopPunkFanBoi69's talk page, here's a quote from that: {{tq|This is why I fucking hate editing Misplaced Pages because multiple accounts that have been blocked & having to create a new account!}} This suggests to me that this is a sockpuppet account, although I don't know about this user and their previous accounts.
	The images he uploads to Commons are freely licensed. The licenses are not revocable. So we can use them, whether he wants us to or not. <span style="font-family:Georgia;font-size:80%;">'''/]]]'''</span> 12:56, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	:That was the core issue that came up a few days ago. Presumably Xander figures if he can't get what he wants, then he'll delete them and then nobody can have what they want. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 15:24, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	:::Don't ''presume'' tell people what I want. You showed up late to a discussion and tried to talk about things that the discussion was not even concerned about. Again, you are here talking about issues no one else has even brought up. <span style="border-top:0 px solid black;font-size:80%">'''</span>]] ]</span> 17:22, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	::Roux reverted the edit here: and when Hamiltonstone complained on the talk page, Roux explained his rationale here: I don't see any need for this board, but rather, discussion should begin on the article talk page. Xandarliptak is as free to edit, and ] as any other Misplaced Pages editor. Every edit he makes that Roux does not agree with cannot be brought here. It should be on the article talk page.] (]) 16:39, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	:::See below. You have clearly not paid any attention to what I wrote or what is happening here. →&nbsp;]&nbsp;]<small>&nbsp;18:59, 15 October 2010 (UTC)</small>
			Either way, I see numerous policy violations here, such as civility, edit warring and potential violation of the multiple accounts policy. —&nbsp;] ] 02:34, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	What is this ANI even about? People complain about the images in the article, I have to argue to keep them in. More people complain, so I take them out. Then those that wanted them out complain I take them out? What kind of logic is that? What is all the Commons talk and "we can use them even if he doesn't want us to"? I was the one always arguing to use hem, ROUX and others were saying we should not. I just finally gave in and said take them out. ROUX should have been happy. Side note, I did get what I wanted on Commons. ROUX and Beyond My Ken were trying to pull up past arguments, but Commons ignored them. The Commons issue had nothing to do with using or not using images, but about what the licensing summary being deficient. <span style="border-top:0 px solid black;font-size:80%">'''</span>]] ]</span> 17:18, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	::That was on one article where the inclusion of unsupported elements was the nature of the dispute, ''not'' the inclusion of the coat of arms in general. 'All this Commons talk' is merely, as I said, background; you are attempting to have images which you freely and ''irrevocably'' licenced deleted, an issue that will be dealt with on Commons. I never tried to pull up past arguments on Commons, because I did not make a ''single'' comment on Commons; once again you appear to be unable to comprehend that you must provide diffs of alleged behaviour and not merely say whatever you want. This ANI is about approximately thirty instances of you removing images you have created from articles where they very clearly belong. The same images you are attempting to have deleted. The same behaviour you engaged in nine months ago (discussed ], you may also wish to see to refresh your memory). →&nbsp;]&nbsp;]<small>&nbsp;18:59, 15 October 2010 (UTC)</small>
	:It is hard to tell what you really want, since you change your story so often. :) But why all this excitement over drawings of family crests and such? This ain't Rembrant stuff, you know. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 17:53, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	{{outdent}}The better question is why is Roux following Xanderliptak? And why is Hamiltonstone claiming he got here from his watchlist when everybody can read this exchange for themselves:
			:You haven’t looked at the Misplaced Pages articles ] & ] for sources! So you don’t see the sources then stay quiet! Look at the ] article also for sources! ] (]) 02:39, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	<small>I do not understand why there is ''any'' information about the Kennedy coat of arms on this page, which is about the surname, and serves as a disambig page for people to locate relevant Kennedys as subjects of WP articles. Move it to an article called ] or to the pages relating to relevant individuals or families, but surely get it off this page? ] (]) 05:23, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
			:You may not know me but come to my talk page if you wanna know about me & my previous accounts like I understand you’re concerned for me & I’m inviting you to my talk page so you can get the full story! ] (]) 02:42, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	:I personally think it is useful information (though I may be biased). My concern with the removal, and why I reverted it, is partly a matter of ], and partly a matter of a posting to ANI that will be up momentarily. →&nbsp;]&nbsp;]<small>&nbsp;05:28, 15 October 2010 (UTC)</small>
	::<small>Yeah, I see that now. I'd like to keep this separate. It isn't that the information may not be useful, but I don't see why discussion of a range of coats of arms of different Kennedy individuals or families should be on the surname page rather than on the pages of the relevant people (or indeed a page about the coats of arms, if there are a few relevatn secondary sources to satisfy notability). But this is a bit of a new area for me, so if there are contra arguments, I'd like to hear them. ] (]) 05:38, 15 October 2010 (UTC) </small>
	Even assuming good faith here, Roux appears to be saying he wants to keep the material just so he can come here. It looks a lot like ], ], and a lack of ] on Roux's part. On Xanderliptak's side, it appears he's just being ] My suggestion would be to stop this before it gets to look like you're ] on Xanderliptak. He's removing the images people have fought to get rid of, but now inexplicably are fighting to have restored. Might be time to reassess your own behavior.] (]) 18:24, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	:Um... did you read ''anything'' I posted here? Seriously, don't post without reading what is going on. →&nbsp;]&nbsp;]<small>&nbsp;18:29, 15 October 2010 (UTC)</small>
	::There seems to be an echo in this section, namely someone griping about Xander being "followed". Some editors don't like being watched, and rung up for what they're doing, since they have this notion that they should be able to do whatever they want, unimpeded. They come here and complain that they're being "harassed"... by ''multiple'' users. At some point, the possibility might arise that the editor is being followed ''because he needs to be followed''. Hanlon's razor might figure into this. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 18:36, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	::Seriously, this actually makes me somewhat angry. You ''do not understand'' a single thing that is going on here. You clearly have not bothered to read a single thing I wrote, and certainly haven't looked at the links I provided. I am ''not'' saying 'keep the material so I can come to ANI.' In terms of ''that specific article'' it is simply the first one I saw on my watchlist. Then I looked at Xanderliptak's contribs, and saw he has removed ''every instance of every image he uploaded to Commons.'' Further, on Commons, he has requested speedy deletion of all his images. (Something he can't do, not for the reason he has given.) Nobody has 'fought' to get rid of , almost all of which are articles about nobility, for whom coats of arms are a fairly important subject, recording as they do marriages, alliances, elevations (or demotions) in station, etc. The removal of one of his images from the ''talk page'' of ] is particularly noteworthy as well.
	::Xanderliptak is, quite simply, attempting to remove all of his images from use on enwiki, with concomitant attempt at deleting them from Commons. This is a ''problem'' that is related to ownership behaviour from ''over a year ago'' detailed and ], which you would know if you had read the links I had initially posted.
	::In all seriousness, please ''do not comment'' when you have demonstrably ''not familiarized yourself with the details of what is going on.'' I bear no personal animus towards Xanderliptak, my concern is with widespread disruption arising from his repeated attempts to control the end result of images which he has freely contributed to the project. →&nbsp;]&nbsp;]<small>&nbsp;18:53, 15 October 2010 (UTC)</small>
			:I would have reported the problem here, but I got the sense I had seen this behavior before. After confirming my suspicion, I started a casepage at ]. What with socking, a personal attack, and a 3RR violation, this person is not likely to retain their editing ability. ] (]) 02:43, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	:Nobody has "fought to get rid of" Xander's images. The issue, as Roux states, is that he wants to maintain control of them, and since he can't do so, he's working on getting rid of them. (I'm sure they'll bring him a healthy profit on the black market.) ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 19:04, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	::This would be a good place to ].] (]) 20:48, 15 October 2010 (UTC)		::I’m not a sockpuppet I’m just a very smart guy who knows a lot about music & Rock genres! Please by all means call me nasty names but I reported you! ] (]) 02:49, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
	:::Feel free to advise Mr. Xander to that effect. :) ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 21:12, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	:::Malke, I tried saying this politely. Apparently you didn't read it. I'll be more blunt: you do not understand what is going on, you have obviously not looked at a single link or diff provided, and your contributions to this discussion are completely and totally unhelpful and off base. Please stop commenting. →&nbsp;]&nbsp;]<small>&nbsp;23:28, 15 October 2010 (UTC)</small>
	::::Roux, I understand perfectly what is happening here. I don't see Xanderliptak doing anything but being ] in his edits. I don't see anything wrong with his removing the images. If editors want them back, they're free to put them back, or find other images, or they can take the articles off their watchlists. Focus on the edit, not the editor. And ]. It's time to ]. ] (]) 23:43, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	:::::The way I understand it (and Roux, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong), this guy is not "being bold", he's trying to assert ownership over his own creations, in defiance of the license rules. And he's been getting irritated because the rule-followers keep impeding him. I never heard of that guy until this past week, but it didn't take long to figure out what he was up to. How do you figure other editors are "free to put them back"? These are designs of family crests or something, which ''he himself'' created. So no one else could claim them as their own, and hence they couldn't upload them. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 23:50, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	:::::Actually, you do not, Malke. Xanderliptak is ''not'' being ]. of course you would know this if you had read the diffs I had provided, including practically identical behaviour from almost a year ago. Your insistence that you understand what is going on is clearly indicating that you have not read the diffs. The edits you have made to this discussion are beyond useless. Until you can indicate that you have actually read the diffs and links provided, I urge anyone else reading this to pay not the slightest bit of attention to anything you have to say on this matter. →&nbsp;]&nbsp;]<small>&nbsp;23:56, 15 October 2010 (UTC)</small>
	::::::(ec)First, it's never wise to assume you know what his motives are. And second, if he created the image and is now removing it, what is the big deal here? If an editor makes an edit to an article, but then comes back and removes the edit and then puts in something else, or decides that the edit wasn't really a good one, who is to say he can't do that? Images come and go on Misplaced Pages. Nothing here is permanent. A week from now none of you will care about any of this.
			== EdsonCordeirodeSouza - Disruptive editing and edit warring ==
	::::::Imagining what Xanderliptak's motives are appears to be the central problem here. There's a reason we have ]. Try it out in real life and you'll see what I mean. We can always assign motive based on our own prejudices and beliefs, but at the end of the day, we don't really know for certain what anybody's motive is, or is not. This whole thread was started based on an assumption that didn't take into account ] that might be going on. The previous arguments are now old. This new argument should have been addressed first on Xanderliptak's talk page and/or the various article talk pages. Not here. ] (]) 00:11, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
			{{atop
	:::::::AGF is not a suicide pact. Again you are demonstrating that you have not familiarized yourself with the history. Addressing this problem with Xanderliptak directly would have been less than fruitful--again, if you had familiarized yourself with the history you would know this. Addressing the issue on 30+ talk pages would have been similarly useless. I beg you, stop inserting your uninformed commentary. It only obscures the situation. →&nbsp;]&nbsp;]<small>&nbsp;00:17, 16 October 2010 (UTC)</small>
			| result = Blocked for 31 hours for edit warring. ] (]/]) 03:06, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	::::::::History is past. Today is all you have. ] and move on.] (]) 00:23, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
			}}
	:::::::::I'm going to suggest that Malke moves on since he seems so spectacularly clueless about this issue. Jon (] (])) <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added 00:32, 16 October 2010 (UTC).</span><!--Template:Undated--> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	== Allegation of racist comments ==
			* {{Userlinks|EdsonCordeirodeSouza}}
	{{anchor|Racist comments by TFD}}
	{{resolved|There is nothing here ] <sub>]</sub> 10:13, 15 October 2010 (UTC)}}
	{{Collapse top|That's about enough ] thanks}}
	''We could easily have articles about greedy Jews, drunken Irishmen, dumb Poles and ignorant Americans, and claim that the article was merely listing examples rather than promoting a fringe theory.'' I have ask him to strike the comments, he refused. in the same breath he compares "greedy jews" to "mass killers" he also tries to make a case for anti-communist also being anti-semitic? after a search of the archeives, TFD name appeared several times with the term "Jew". ] (]) 08:31, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	:That's an example of ], not racism. Not enough information to comment any more than that. ] (]) 08:38, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	::Indeed, he is listing other things which he claims are stereotypes or fringe theories about groups of people. My reading of this comment is that he rejets those, and that if we have an article on such incorrect ideas, we should not just present the ideas, but indicate the fringe nature of them. Whether he is right about the communism article, I don't know, and I haven't checked his history, but I see absolutely no racism in this post by TFD. ] (]) 08:40, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	:::Agreed. I've been following some of TFD's comments for a month now, and I've never seen anything approaching racism, but I could be wrong. ] (]) 08:42, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	::::''The killing of kulaks and cossak was not different from killing Jews.'' <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) </span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned -->
	:::::Um, are you implying that the killing of kulaks and cossacks is somehow ''different'' from the killing of Jews? That looks to me more like a racist comment than the comment made by TFD. Comparing ethnic cleansings is awalys a dangerous thing, but stating that killing a cossack child during an ethnic cleansing is comparable to killing a Jewish child during an ethnic cleansing isn't that farfetched. The next sentence of TFD's comment was "The death of a Ukranian Kulak child deliberately starved by the policies of Stalinism is equal to the death of a Jewish child in the Warsaw ghetto deliberately starved by Nazis." To see any racism or antisemitism in such a statement seems to me to be a huge mistake. ] (]) 09:12, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	::::Agree (with Viriditas). Also, "Americans" are not a race by any definition I'm aware of (and, thinking a bit further, neither are Poles or Irishmen). --] (]) 08:56, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	''Auschwitz was after all modelled on the gulags. Considering the severe threat posed by Communism, the actions of Nazi Germany at least had a rational basis.'' are you serious? "rational basis"? ] (]) 09:00, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	:Darkstar, that is invidious misquoting. As clearly described in that talk page he is paraphrasing the views of "Furet, Nolte and Courtois." Please be aware of your responsibility in providing adequate context when quoting other editors. Thanks! ] (]) 09:06, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	::the text was his explanation of the book and not a quote from the book as it was originally posted. if the author actually said such, perhaps you would supply us the page #? ] (]) 09:52, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	::That may be, but TFD is correct. The ] was a rational enterprise. "...the defining features of modern bureaucracy were not only well established in Germany during the Holocaust, but made the Holocaust possible...Even the choice of extermination 'was an effect of the earnest effort to find rational solutions to successive "problems", and at no point did the Holocaust come into conflict with the principles of rationality." ] (]) 09:09, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
			The user in question has been persistently disruptive editing and edit warring, currently primarily on ]. As it's been excluded for however long, the contestant/mask/celebrity they continue adding to the table was '''''not''''' a competing contestant and was only in the season as a special guest, as already mentioned in prose text with the table. Also in that they keep edit warring back to, they continue messing up one of the sources URLs, changing it from <code>https://web.archive.org/web/20230925131501/https://variety.com/2023/tv/news/the-masked-singer-season-10-premiere-recap-demi-lovato-'''anonymouse'''-1235719311/</code> to <code>https://web.archive.org/web/20230925131501/https://variety.com/2023/tv/news/the-masked-singer-season-10-premiere-recap-demi-lovato-'''anony mouse'''-1235719311/</code>, which in turn, continues to create .
	My meaning was that we could create an article about members of a group that shared certain attributes, and although the examples might be factual the article would imply a POV. That should be clear from the talk page discussion and that is how most other editors understood it. The statement about kulaks is from the ''Black book of Communism'' which is used as a source for the article and which I oppose including. I provided a reference to ''Stalinism and nazism: history and memory compared'' which opposes this comparison. If Darkstar1st believes that the comments made in the ''Black Book'' are anti-Semitic, then he should also agree that it should not be used as a source for the article. ] (]) 09:23, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
			As seen on their talk page, this also does not appear to be their first time disruptively editing and edit warring. Despite their warnings less than a month ago and their recent warnings I've added to their talk page, they continue doing the same exact thing and there is ] '''whatsoever'''. I had this at AIV, but as it was not specifically 'vandalism', I was advised to come here. Hoping this can be resolved, thank you. ] (]) 02:53, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	This complaint has no substance, and obviously so. I notice ] has been accused of being a sock of ], in an SPI that didn't get much airing. Perhaps a suitable ] effect for this frivolous complaint would be for any interested parties to revisit that issue and see if they can shed more light on it. ] <sup>]</sup> 09:25, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
	:i wasn't the only one offended by '''greedy jews''' , others in talk said so at the time, the fact that none of you see the hurt caused by enforcing stereotypes '''even''' to make a point is astonishing. lets try it a different way, and see if it is offensive this time, i'll the second word, you think of the 1st word you associate with the term in a derogatory since: ______ Muslim, ______ Italian, ______ Mexican, ________ African-American ] (]) 10:01, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	::The point that TFD was trying to make is that ''because'' those stereotypes are offensive, so is ''all'' stereotyping. →&nbsp;]&nbsp;]<small>&nbsp;10:06, 15 October 2010 (UTC)</small>
	::Only one person misconstrued TFD's remarks, and was criticised for it by several others as being a personal attack. The issue had lain for several days by the time you brought it here, and examining the circumstances makes your complaint here worse, not better. In view of the fact that this entirely frivolous complaint concerns charges of anti-semitism, it amounts to harassment. ] <sup>]</sup> 10:11, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	::(multiple ec)He is not enforcing stereotypes, he is stating that such fringe stereotypes about groups of people should be countered on Misplaced Pages, which is the opposite of racism. I hope you are not denying that the offensive stereotype of the greedy Jew exists? You give me the impression of only reacting to the words "greedy Jew", without noticing how and why they were used here. By the way, I may have missed it but the "others" (plural) in talk, who were they? I only see user Collect sharing your interpretation, and Writegeist an Rick Norwood disagreeing with Collect. I fail to understand why people are trying to paint TFD's comments as racist an antisemitic when he is actually claiming that those drawing a "connection between Jews and Communists" (in the framework of communist mass killings) are anti-semitic far right conspiracists, and that he wants Misplaced Pages to show how fringe that position is. He may be right, he may be incorrect, I don't really care, but everyting you have shown here are comments by TFD that are anti-racist and anti-antisemetic. ] (]) 10:12, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	::The point that TFD was trying to make is that ''because'' those stereotypes are offensive, so is ''all'' stereotyping. →&nbsp;]&nbsp;]<small>&nbsp;10:06, 15 October 2010 (UTC)</small>
	This report has absolutely nothing to it. It is immediately obvious to me that TFD was deploring the idea of racial stereotyping masquerading as established fact. His post that you link to is infact quite insightful and explanatory. ] through ] ] <sub>]</sub> 10:13, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	:so having an article about mass killings under communist regimes is as ridicules as having an article about '''greedy jews'''? i fail to see the logic, one is backed by historical fact, the other is a racial slur. @RD232, do you consider '''drunken Irishmen''' '''dumb poles''' anti-semitic? i used the term racist, anti-Semite is your description. ] (]) 10:18, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	:::I don't think we should have articles on French people that portray them as ], it would be fringe theory masquerading as fact. Note, in that sentence, I did ''not'' call all French people cheese-eating surrender monkeys, I merely commented on the perception. This is what TFD did, it is not racist to state that such stereotypes exist, particularly when his comment is openly against such stereotypes. I fail to understand why you are not getting what everyone on this thread is trying to point out to you. ] <sub>]</sub> 10:22, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	::::maybe it is you who doesn't get it? Why don't you ask a friend who is Jewish, Irish or Polish, see if they think using a hurtful stereotype to make a political point on wp is kosher? I doubt you will find any French who will be offended by the word cheese, however "surrender monkey" go over well. using offensive terms to make a point, does not lessen the sting of the term. try explaining this in front of real people and see what kind of reaction you get after saying '''greedy jew''' in any context. ] (]) 10:35, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
			== User:Janessian is very clearly not here to build an encyclopedia ==
	* Close thread <small> again</small>, apply trout. &nbsp;] 10:29, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
			{{atop|result=Editor Janessian has been indefinitely blocked for a whole laundry list of reasons so I'm closing this complaint. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 17:36, 18 January 2025 (UTC)<br>
	{{Collapse bottom}}
			<br>
			And talk page access revoked. - ] <sub>]</sub> 03:19, 19 January 2025 (UTC)}}
			*{{userlinks|Janessian}}
			Janessian seems to be not here to build an encyclopedia, but rather to harass editors over a pair of images they don't like in the article ]. They have already been sanctioned twice for edit warring on the article, but this latest comment between myself, ], ], and ], they posted this lovely little gem ]] on JBW's talk page. Nelson has just informed me that Janessian has made a rather unpleasant comment on phil knights talk page as well ]].] (]) 04:56, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	== ] - hounding, sock puppetry, disruptive editing, personal attacks ==
			:], do you have more diffs that show a pattern of behavior? I think there has alreay been a report about them at ANI and a link to that discussion would help the case you are making. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 06:26, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			::It looks like they were called both to ANI and ANEW. Links to prevous discussions help put a complaint in context. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 06:29, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Link to my complaint to ANEW: ]], ]]. JBW handled the first block. ] (]) 06:35, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Yes, I was mistaken about a prior visit to ANI. I thought Isabelle blocked them. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 06:39, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::At this point my main concern is protecting fellow editors. Janessian's conduct has caused @] what seems to be a fair amount of distress. ] (]) 06:42, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::Isabelle blocked Janessian from editing the article. but some degree of talk page harassment has continued. ] (]) 06:45, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			* Janessian's editing is unacceptable in several ways, including edit-warring, legal threats, and personal attacks. I gave a short block, and when the unacceptable editing resumed Isabelle Belato gave an indef partial block from the article in question. For both blocks edit-warring was given as the reason, but it is perfectly clear that the problems go beyond that. The block from the article has been followed by unacceptable user talk page editing. I shall convert the block to a total one, apart from Janessian's own talk page, and post a message to that page in which I shall try to make it clearer what the problems are, and what can be done about them. Unfortunately it will take me a little while to get time to do that, but I hope minutes rather than hours. ] (]) 10:53, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	;Background
	User {{userlinks|Kubura}} has a history of conflict with other editors over articles relating to Croatia. See his contribs. On 4 October I made two reversions of pending changes to previously accepted versions of ]: and . As there appeared to be an edit war starting, I asked in the edit summaries for discussions of changes to take place on the article's talk page to attempt to reach some consensus. As the user, {{Userlinks|Jack Sparrow 3}}, and some Croatian IPs had continuously made the same edit, I asked for page protection .
			* Well, in the 42 minutes between my posting the message above and my getting time to come back and follow it up, Janessian posted a couple of messages on the talk page of the article, which were much more like attempts to start a civil discussion. I shall therefore hold fire on the block, and post a message to their talk page about the way forward. ] (]) 11:44, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	;Hounding
			*:@], @], @], Well...I seen the message too. I had read through, but I had a bad feeling about this. Plus, all crime wiki articles often use news reports apart from court sources or books to support the information published on the article. I find that he did not comprehend or understand that part, and some of his parts about working with the police to write crime on wikipedia is a bit hard considering that we are not working in that field. He also said he will refer to crime report in this case ] (]) 12:00, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	Kubura arrived at my talk page '''two''' days later to obviously make a ] and posted a 3RR warning to which I responded explaining that he was in error and that my only involvement was as a reviewer, that he should feel free to either strike out the warning or recognise his error or not but that either way he should at least check contribution histories before lashing out and issuing warnings out of some vendetta. He chose to do neither, and in his he addressed another user who had commented, and used a phrase that does not pop up often (see '''Sock puppetry''' below) "don't '''etiquette''' the opponent as nationalists."
			*::@], @], @], how will we respond to his messages? , , , , ] (]) 12:13, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:@], @], @], in the unpleasant message in @]'s talkpage, it seems that he knew some hints of where I am and what I am doing. I felt uneasy about how he replied in the talk page and his most recent messages. ] (]) 12:07, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::{{u|NelsonLee20042020}}, I haven't looked into any other aspects of this, but {{u|Janessian}} does not seem to have posted anything in that message that you have not disclosed on your talk page. ] (]) 12:36, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::What do you mean? could you specify in your statement please? ] (]) 12:41, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::The messages I am referring to, @], are the ones in the external links I placed above. ] (]) 12:42, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:::@], , . I am sending you his first messages in my talk page (which were removed), if you are talking about what he said in my talk page. ] (]) 12:47, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::So far. These are the recent replies he gave to some of us. , , . ] (]) 14:10, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Yup this is a not here user look at this comment;
	I removed the warning myself only for Kubura to return a further and reinstate it with the summary "No censorship. You appeared on edit warring on 4 Oct 2010 with 2 reverts in 28 minutes, without explanation on the talkpage." A page watcher saw the reinstatement and removed it here . Getting thoroughly peeved with this ] I asked Kubura posting irrelevant warnings on my talk page. Kubura responded that as far as he was concerned I was part of a pushing POV on the article. I to impress upon Kubura that he was wrong not to AGF my 2 reversions of 4 October, that I was not part of a tag team or anti-Croatian conspiracy and that I was fed up to the eyeballs with his hounding. He then repeated his tag team allegation to an admin, stating that I was ]: .
			:''Hi I am not interested in news reporting. '''I am not interested in working with editors.''' I only want the right thing to be done, which is to take down the photos of all the deceased in the crime articles which you guys have been circulating - half truths because a lot of if is copy and paste without due investigation. This is not fair to the deceased and not fair to the readers. A global reader will read it, not knowing that it is not the complete truth.''
			:]
			:; ''Little or no interest in working collaboratively''
			:: ''Extreme lack of interest in working constructively and cooperatively with the community where the views of other users may differ; extreme lack of interest in heeding others' legitimate concerns; interest in furthering rather than mitigating conflict like ] for ], ], ], ], or ].''
			:Yup indeed block is warranted.] (]) 02:59, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			::].] (]) 03:00, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			*{{tqq|My lawyer has used the word "offending" portion. He advised me to contact Wikimedia to remove the offending portion before taking any further action.}} . {{tqq| I was advised by a friend in Germany to make a police report and seek the help of lawyers to get the pictures down. My lawyer advised me to mediate with Misplaced Pages first and see if it yields any results.}} This pretty blatantly is a ] case. Note also the veiled accusation of socking by JBW and continued ]s against NelsonLee20042020 , and apparent utter disregard for ] {{tqq| If you guys are interested in crime reporting, you have to conduct interviews with people. You cannot simply cut and paste from other sources without verifying if it is true.}} . Pretty sure this should be a complete indef, I'd do it myself but would defer to one of the already-involved (in the "actively working on this" sense vis-a-vis ]) admins. - ] <sub>]</sub> 03:51, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:Seems to take an issue with me because I've been telling them to "get real," because they've been harassing @] and generally trying to intimidate the poor guy. ] (]) 03:54, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			*Unless someone is proposing a CBAN, which I don't think is justified here, I don't see why the user has not been indeffed sitewide. I respect {{U|Isabelle Belato}} and {{U|JBW}}, the only two admins who have taken administrative action, but even post JBW's final warning, the user continued their disruptive nonsense. I saw very little indication that the user was going to change their overall approach, let alone their ''only'' interest in being here, and I've indeffed the user accordingly; details of the many bases for the block are in the block log.--] (]) 14:37, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			*:The editor was given plenty of chances to course correct, but they decided to keep repeating the same mistakes. I have no issue with the indefinite site-wide block here. ] <small><sup>]</sup></small> 15:17, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			*::Yep, good block. ]] 15:20, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
			== A Case of Vandalism and Ignorance ==
	His next step in his campaign of harassment was to complain about me at ] here: . This was in the midst of another rampage of ] warnings, where he issued notices of ] to everyone who he disagreed with, and then posted to another user a hint to do his dirty work for him in reporting ] to ] here: as he could hardly go there himself due to ].
	;Sock puppetry, disruptive editing and personal attacks
	Kubura has since made no logged in edits, however the campaign of disruptive editing and hounding has been continued by Croatian IPs: , , including the same allegation of censorship directed at me that Kubura used, , demonstrating an understanding of wiki editing, . The IP focuses his attacks on me (for censorship), and Kubura's two other favourite targets, Kwamikagami and ]. He specifically cites Kwamikagami's ] investigation, and another subject close to Kubura's heart, Ivan's "insults." Another Croatian IP, {{userlinks|83.131.95.222}} repeated the same arguments used by Kubura, made personal attacks calling other editors "liars", and trotted out the same phrases including the accusation that people were "'''ettiqueted''' as Croatian nationalist," an unusual turn of phrase used by Kubura.
			There is in my view a vandalism case in the wikipedia page ].
	I call ].
			'''Pls Understand whole matter'''
	;Relief
	In view of the above, I am raising these matters for the attention of others, and request that you consider if any action should be taken against Kubura. Personally, I believe he should be blocked indefinitely, but I leave the conclusions to be drawn by, and any outcome decided, to my peers. ] (]) 11:57, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	:I concur with Keristrasza's evaluation of the situation with ]. Keristrasza has been totally uninvolved with the discussions at ], but Kubura dragged him/her in nonetheless with ridiculous accusations. Kubura's hounding goes beyond just Keristrasza as well. He/she actively sought out someone who has a past history of reporting ] for admin issues. This research turned up ], and Kubura posted on his/her talk page. Neutralhomer then trotted over to ] and used Kubura's information to initiate an against Kwamikagami (a complaint which led nowhere). Kubura has contributed nothing to the discussion at ] and has been disruptive on the Talk pages of those who oppose his/her POV. --] (]) 13:00, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
			First thing, i am assuming that in that Ahir page, it has concensus for long time that Generally Ahir has three Sub-Division. 1) Yaduvanshi 2) Nandavanshi and 3) Goallavanshi ,
	== Editors who advocate violence ==
			reason being, i check throughout history of that page that these three divison have there for many years.
			But recently one editor changed all that in three edits these are following -
	{{hat|Even for ANI this is too pointless; find something productive to do, please. ] (]) 19:16, 15 October 2010 (UTC)}}
	I am concerned about Nableezy Most of this editor's work is in the Israel/Palestine area. On his user page he openly advocates violence. http://wikibias.com/2010/10/who-edits-wikipedia-part-ii/ His language openly supports the right of "all individuals and groups" to take up guns, bombs and rockets and kill innocent people. I think that it is inappropriate for an individual with thee views to edit on Israel and Palestine pages.] (]) 16:26, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	:We can't really do anything to some one for having views like that, but we can do something if you have provide Diffs of civility violations or threats toward an individual. Or some context to what you complaint is about. I would general agree with the statement above depding on the context as every one does have the right to defend them selves but its all context ] (]) 16:32, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
			At first stance , i like their reason of these editing and thought probably this guy has a valid reason for doing that and I ignored.
	:Even from that biased source, you can distill the correct statement. It says: “This user supports the right of all individuals and groups to violently resist military aggression and occupation by other parties." The biased source then goes on to explain that the "correct interpretation" of this statement is as follows: "This statement justifies Hamas rocket attacks on civilians, the massacre of Israeli children on school buses, and the bombing of the Oklahoma city federal office building". This looks bit similar to me to how Obama's health care plan became a plan to euthanize senior citizens. ] (]) 16:43, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
			I myself for the first time came here for the inclusion of a word ' Prakrit' here as it is well known fact with citation
	Oh please, ''this'' junk again? If you don't know the history...IIRC this goes back a very long time to a user named {{user|Embargo}}, whose user page had varying versions of;
			Then as being myself an extended user, someone tag and approaches me that this guy edits many factual correct things. pls correct it.
			then i got into this history contributions n all.
			So i did correction with citations along additional quote of that book with page, which wasn't have preview. and
			But that guy again revet all this and said please add citation without reading citation that i actually provided
	<div style="float: left; border:solid black 1px; margin: 1px;">
	{| cellspacing="0" style="width: 238px; background: magneta;"
	| style="width: 45px; height: 43px; background: yellow; text-align: center; font-size: 14pt; color: {{{id-fc|black}}};" | ''']'''
	| style="font-size: {{{info-s|8}}}pt; padding: 4pt; line-height: 1.25em; color: {{{info-fc|black}}};" | This user supports the ].
	|}</div>
	<br><br><br>
			Then i go his talk page and told that guy to undo those edits as it has two book reference along with page and quote
	on it, the above being the most recent and mild. Unfortunately, even this still was never good enough for Embargo's wiki-opponents, thus he eventually left the project. Nableezy's current tag appears to be a much milder takeoff on this old one, with the links as a form of protest. Nowhere in it does it actually link to Hezbollah as Embargo's did, which was generally the crux of his problems, and I don't give two shits what some half-baked conspiracy site like wikibias.com has to say about affairs on the Misplaced Pages. Tell em to get bent. ] (]) 16:46, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
			I thought he would give me a valuable reply but instead of this, he just delete or archive my Talk and said that i should go for admin
			but i don't know who admin is here.
			Now i go on editing all these again with three more book reference in consecutive three edits and and left a talk page discussion as well ]
	Andy Carr, do you have any ] for these assertions? --] &#x007C; ] 16:49, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	:Are we really saying that users are not responsible for the content of their userpages unless quoted in a ]? The idea seems preposterous. Or did Orangemike mean that we need an RS to be able to tell that the userpage is full of advocacy? ] <small>]</small> 17:29, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	::I think Orange Mike was looking for a cite for "take up guns, bombs and rockets and kill innocent people." That part seems absent from ]. ] 17:41, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
			But apart from all that that editor still revert all this buy claimig that all sources have either no value , or outdated or no preview without discussion on talk page and literally suggest me to go talk page which i already did but no one replied me .
	Nothing to see here IMO. ]] 16:52, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
			This is totally i think Vandalism Case.
	Andycarr78, wikibias.com ? Really ? That's where you get your information about editors ? ...and your 9th edit to Misplaced Pages is an ANI posting ? Jeez. At the very least can an admin officially notify Andycarr78 about the ] and log it please. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - ''']'''</small> 17:25, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	:Innit Wikibias about as believable as Fox News? ]] 17:34, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	::HalfShadow, that is an ignorant comment. Additionally, there is no need to defame Fox News in this discussion.--] (]) 19:22, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	:::That's right. There are plenty of other opportunities out there for defaming Fox News. In fact, it's like shooting fish in a barrel. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 19:44, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	::::I'm more concerned that we may have defamed wikibias by comparing it to Fox. ] (]) 19:46, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
			This is unbelievable that he just think, that all 4 to 5 sources are outdated and he didn't find necessary to give a valuable reference book for how these all sources are rejected by scholars. Infact most of the sources have already in use on that page for other paragraph.
	::I'm glad my one userbox is supporting a cause far more cut and dry than this one... come on, can we drop this now? ] (]) 18:23, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	:::The irony of this is that an Israel supporter could post essentially the same assertion as is being complained about here - because in Israel's eyes, they are under attack from all directions, and hence they feel justified in using violence to protect themselves. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 18:31, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	::::I think it is a terrible userbox. It advocates violence while also it was also created to make a point and stick it to other editors. It is some sort or "protest" against the decision sometime ago. He has been asked multiple times to remove it. He won't and people rally to his defense. Baseballbugs and I are on the same page since I have recently created a . I think it is mildly disruptive but consensus seems to allow these things. I will be happy to remove it if things change and these are considered not acceptable.] (]) 18:39, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	:::::Cute. Kind of the Galactic Empire philosophy. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 18:47, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	::::::The trilogy Galactic Empire or the prequel trilogy Galactic Empire? ]] 18:49, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	:::::::Whichever trilogy it was where the Empire was ruled with an iron fist yet 50 or 100 of its soldiers at a time couldn't hit a stationary target, and where it was eventually defeated by clumsy dwarfs in furry suits. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 19:00, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
			that's all , hoping it need an urgent interrogation. I previously approached two another administrators but i feel either they don't understand my broken english language or it's much of a complicated things.
	Since people are so busy whining about "users supporting violence", I find it a bit curious that nobody has brought up userboxes like these:
	{{User:Jc-S0CO/Userboxes/Iraq}}
	{{User:Libertyville/Support}}
	{{clear}}
	Surely these are every bit as big of a problem as banners supporting the other side of the conflict, no? Or is it only a particular type of violence we advocate on Misplaced Pages? Why don't you all bugger off, and stop wasting everyone's time trying to cause problems for an editor whose politics you don't agree with? -- ] (]) 18:50, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	::"Bugger off''? Uncivil, Jrtayloriv. Vastly uncivil.] (]) 18:59, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	:::..and saying someone said "kill innocent people" when they didn't is what, moderately impolite, not cricket, frowned upon ? ..man. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - ''']'''</small> 19:08, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
			Regards.
	I fully advocate violence against userboxes in general, as my own page states. Let's get back to more important matters now, like Star Trek episode articles. ] (]) 18:57, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
			<!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) </small>
	:Supporting one's troops is not necessarily the same thing. Although maybe the editor would get less flack if he would take a more positive approach, by posting a yellow ribbon and saying, "I support the Palistinian troops." ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 19:00, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
			:This report has the characteristics of a content dispute. I would suggest discussing on talk page, and if the editor engages in a edit war, report them to ]. ] 08:17, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
	There is a vast difference between advocating the right of any individual with a grievance to take up a weapon and murder someone, as Nableezy does. And advocating the right of a legitimate government to use police and military forces to prevent violence or in self-defense. Civilized people call this distinction civilization. The difference lies in the right of individuals to from a legitimate government to protect themselves and their families from violence. And in the fact that governments, police and armies in well-governed states operate under rules that limit the use of violence and protect the security of persons. Under the rules of Nableezy's UserBox, any individual who claims that a government is illegitimate can pick up a gun and murder any other individual. Or blow up the Oklahoma City federal building. That way lies the disintegration of civilization into a world of violence.] (]) 19:07, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	:The problem in the Israeli situation is that each side is firmly convinced they have the moral high ground, and neither is strong enough to defeat the other. Violence is not exactly new, you know. Peace doesn't necessarily come from deciding to get along, it often comes from ''conquest''. And when you've got a situation like in the middle east, a stalemate, it can only get uglier over time - until someone finally wins, ''or'' they get tired of fighting, which can take a long, long time. ←] <sup>'']''</sup> ]→ 19:14, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
			:@]
	::{{edit conflict}}I think that anyone that advocates any view as the theme of their user space should be kept away from dealing with it in article space. ] happens to have devoted his/her entire userpage to pro-palestine text and images. Therefore it calls into question his/her ability to be neutral in palestine related manners. Same thing for the other side. One "I support the Red Sox" userbox shouldn't bar a person from editing the red sox, but a whole page with quotes and images should. <span style="text-shadow:#C8F526 0.10em 0.10em 0.10em"><font color="black">]</font> <sub><span style="text-shadow:#ffd700 0.14em 0.14em 0.14em"><font color="black">]</font></sub></span> 19:17, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
			: I am sure you understand whole matter here otherwise you wouldn't suggest me anything. i already left a talk on that page, if anyone don't want to talk or participate in that, then what's my fault here ?
	:::(ec3)As I've said before, I love it how ''both'' sides have chosen Misplaced Pages to be a battlefront within the larger Middle East conflict, and think that creating or deleting other user's userboxes actually matters in the grand scheme of things. I created my own in the wake of Embargo's railroading, in fact. ] (]) 19:19, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
			:It's not a content dispute, just a totally biasness because there are bunches of scholar book evidences they reject orally and don't provide any support for there rejection.
	::::] would seem to cover it. User pages are not a good place to advocate one side of a battleground issue or another. Where the advocacy is uncontroversial or unchallenged we let it slide as a reasonable exercise of self-expression. It's a fallacy to say that because we allow some, we have to allow it all. Having a POV doesn't disqualify anyone from editing articles, they just have to abide by the rules and work with other editors to create a neutral article. Advertising a POV or adopting controversial userboxes doesn't disqualify you, it's just not the best way to encourage collaboration and goodwill. - ] (]) 20:00, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
			:so instead of giving me lecture, why you don't involve there ?
	{{hab}}
			:such a irresponsible replied , i got in WP:AN/I here , i wasn't expect that.
			:Anyways.
			:Thanks for reply.
			:Regards. ] (]) 05:53, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			::That's a very rude reply, ]. Fantastic Mr. Fox took a few minutes of his time to respond to your query here and you insult them. At this rate, I doubt you'll get any more feedback from other editors to address your problem. This is a collaborative editing project and it's better to make allies rather than drive people away. We are all volunteers here and no one is obligated to respond to you. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 06:59, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::@] , I apologise if anyone feel that a rude reply. But in my experience, editor don't read long incident probelm i guess. they either get bored or don't try to read. They try to suggest to go talk page, but here things get complicated.
			:::Some people tag me to look that page, but I can't do anything as here people do reply either very late or do reply to go to talk page and talk page don't reply, again the circle problem.
			:::But anyways. i did again leave a talk page right know.
			:::Thanks for your response for letting know me that i was being rude. but it was more of a frustration of my side.
			:::i will keep in mind in future.
			:::Much Regards ] (]) 08:08, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			==Regarding edit warring, vandalism and personal attacks by ]==
			] has been told to refrain from adding Jan Suraaj Party as a major contender above ] and ] in ] by me and ]. ] has also reverted his such edits once. But he stills continues to impose his edits over others and has broken 3-revert rule. Then he starts arguing and makes personal attacks. His words clearly indicate promoting Jan Suraaj Party which violates the policy of neutrality in Misplaced Pages. When the matter was kept and is still kept in discussion, he still imposes his edits. He is already warned for hijacking another page. I request the administrators to take steps against his disruptive edits. They can check ] and (https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=2025_Bihar_Legislative_Assembly_election&action=history). ] (]) 08:27, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Its just one sided answer where he circle me a guilty every step. Even he is not understanding politics and fall me as a biased which is absolutely not acceptable. ] (]) 08:33, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			== Formal Report: Request for Sanctions Against Editor "@Notwally" ==
			{{atop|result={{NAC}} Summed up by ] below. ]<sup>]</sup> 15:03, 17 January 2025 (UTC)}}
			{{collapse top|OP blocked as a sock; entire thread was mostly AI-generated piffle anyway. ] 13:47, 17 January 2025 (UTC)}}
			'''To:''' Misplaced Pages Administrators
			'''Subject:''' Request for Administrative Review of Editor "@]" Due to ], ], and Contentious Behavior
			'''Filed by:''' Anonymous Editor (2.50.47.59)
			'''<big>1. Summary of Issues</big>'''
			The editor "@]" has engaged in a persistent pattern of edit warring, removal of sourced content, aggressive debating, and violations of contentious topic restrictions across multiple articles. Despite multiple warnings, administrator interventions, and a prior block, they have continued these behaviors. Given their history of disruption, I request administrative intervention in the form of:
			* A ''']''' from contentious topics, ] (BLPs), political articles, film articles.
			* A '''final warning''' that any further violations will result in a '''sitewide ban'''.
			* Consideration of a '''sitewide ban if disruptive behavior continues'''.
			Reason (Will be discussed explicitly at the end of this report, in section "Key Incidents and Timeline"):
			* '''Edit Wars (Multiple Reverts & Disputes):''' '''13+ cases''' (2021 – Present)
			* '''Blocks (Temporary Editing Restrictions):''' '''1 confirmed block (48h for edit warring, September 2024)'''
			* '''Warnings for Edit Warring:''' '''5+ formal warnings''' (Ongoing since at least 2022)
			* '''Disruptive Behavior (Dismissive, Aggressive Responses):''' '''10+ incidents'''
			* '''Content Disputes (Questionable Removals, Non-Consensus Editing):''' '''15+ cases'''
			'''<big>2. Evidence of Edit Warring and Policy Violations</big>'''
			'''] Edit War (September 2024)'''
			* Reverted multiple times, ignoring ] (burden of proof).
			* Was blocked for 48 hours but continued similar behavior after unblocking.
			* Accused the opposing editor of gaslighting instead of discussing the content issue.
			'''] Edit War (December 2024)'''
			* Repeatedly re-added content without consensus.
			* Received a formal edit-warring warning but continued.
			* Ignored contentious topic restrictions.
			'''] Edit War (December 2024)'''
			* Engaged in multiple reversions over a minor issue (character titles).
			* Ignored the article’s long-standing consensus.
			* Was given an official warning for edit warring.
			'''] Edit War (September 2024)'''
			* Involved in multiple content disputes with different editors.
			* Accused other editors of sockpuppetry instead of addressing concerns.
			* Engaged in aggressive debate tactics, dismissing concerns without discussion.
			'''<big>3. Behavioral Issues</big>'''
			'''Aggressive and Dismissive Tone'''
			* 1a) Accuses other editors of incompetence, e.g., ''"You don’t seem to understand how words work."''
			* 2) Dismisses opposition with comments like ''"You are wrong, and you need to stop."''
			* 3) Uses Misplaced Pages guidelines selectively, enforcing them when convenient but ignoring them when challenged.
			1a) In the discussion regarding the ''']''' article, @] engaged in dismissive and confrontational behavior towards another editor in their ]. Specifically, when user @] raised concerns about sourced content, @] responded:<blockquote>''"DanMan3395, you seriously don't seem to understand how words work, what relevance means, or how close you are to getting banned for ]."'' – '''Notwally''' (talk) 03:18, 9 August 2024</blockquote>This response not only fails to engage in a ''']''' but also '''escalates hostility''' by implying the other editor lacks comprehension skills and is at risk of a ban. Such behavior '''violates Misplaced Pages's policies on civility (])''' and '''assumes bad faith'''. Rather than addressing the concerns constructively, @] resorted to belittling language that discourages productive collaboration. Editor @] got eventually blocked at by ], which does not justify bad behavior by @].
			'''Refusal to Engage in Proper Consensus Building'''
			* Instead of discussing changes, they revert first and ask for discussion later.
			* Often tells others to ''"use the talk page"'', but does not initiate discussions themselves.
			* Ignores consensus-based editing in favor of unilateral decisions.
			'''Repeatedly Challenging Misplaced Pages Policies Without Justification'''
			* Was blocked once but immediately appealed, refusing to acknowledge any wrongdoing.
			* Claimed administrator actions were punitive rather than preventative.
			* Continues to engage in content disputes even after being warned.
			@] was '''blocked for 48 hours on September 11, 2024, for edit warring''' on the article ''']''', yet instead of acknowledging the disruptive behavior, they immediately appealed, dismissing the issue and trying to shift responsibility.
			After being blocked for violating Misplaced Pages’s '''] (3RR)''', they submitted an unblock request '''without admitting any fault''' and instead claimed:<blockquote>''"I am requesting that both'' @] ''and I be unblocked so that we can continue our discussion on the article's talk page. Blocks are supposed to be preventative rather than punitive."'' – @] (talk) 23:54, 11 September 2024</blockquote>The appeal did '''not acknowledge the edit warring''' nor the need to '''cease reverting''' before engaging in discussion. Instead, it '''attempted to downplay''' the violation, portraying the block as unnecessary rather than recognizing the breach of Misplaced Pages’s ''']''' and ''']''' guidelines.
			Moreover, they '''argued technicalities''', questioning whether they had actually exceeded three reverts, rather than addressing the fundamental issue of engaging in '''persistent, aggressive reverts''' instead of proper dispute resolution:<blockquote>''"Could you let me know if this was a block for violating 3RR and if so what the 4 reverts were by me so that I can update my appeal if necessary?"'' – @] (talk) 03:47, 12 September 2024</blockquote>This demonstrates '''a pattern of challenging Misplaced Pages policies without justification''', '''minimizing misconduct''', and '''failing to engage in self-reflection''' when sanctioned for disruptive editing.
			Instead of '''learning from the block''', they attempted to '''immediately return to editing''', indicating a '''lack of willingness to adhere to Misplaced Pages's dispute resolution processes''' and '''a refusal to recognize the consequences of their behavior'''.
			=== -- Summary of @] Edit Wars, Blocks, and Disruptive Behavior -- ===
			Based on an analysis of '''], ], ], and the Current ]''', the following '''quantitative breakdown''' details '''edit warring incidents, blocks, policy violations, and disruptive editing behavior over time.'''
			=== Breakdown by Category: ===
			* '''Edit Wars (Multiple Reverts & Disputes):''' '''13+ cases''' (2021 – Present)
			* '''Blocks (Temporary Editing Restrictions):''' '''1 confirmed block (48h for edit warring, September 2024)'''
			* '''Warnings for Edit Warring:''' '''5+ formal warnings''' (Ongoing since at least 2022)
			* '''Disruptive Behavior (Dismissive, Aggressive Responses):''' '''10+ incidents'''
			* '''Content Disputes (Questionable Removals, Non-Consensus Editing):''' '''15+ cases'''
			=== Key Incidents and Timeline ===
			==== 1. Multiple Edit Wars (13+ cases) ====
			@] has been involved in numerous '''edit wars across different articles''', including:
			# ] ''(September 2024)'' – '''Blocked for 48 hours''' after repeatedly reverting another editor’s content without reaching consensus.
			# ] ''(September 2024)'' – Engaged in multiple reverts and was warned about sockpuppetry concerns.
			# ] ''(December 2024)'' – Received a formal warning for edit warring.
			# ] ''(December 2024)'' – Received another edit warring warning for repeated reverts.
			# ] ''(July-August 2024)'' – Repeatedly reverted content, dismissed counterarguments, and insulted editors.
			# ]''':''' ''(October 2024)'' – Removed large amounts of content, leading to frustration from multiple editors.
			# ] ''(September 2024)'' – Disputed inclusion of templates, disregarding established formatting standards.
			# ] ''(September 2024)'' – Engaged in a dispute over whether certain awards were noteworthy.
			# ] ''(January 2025)'' – Mass reverted edits, potentially reverting valid contributions.
			# ] ''(November 2024)'' – Involved in a POV dispute.
			# ] ''(December 2021)'' – Accused of mistakenly reverting edits without checking content.
			==== 2. Blocks & Warnings (1 Block, 5+ Warnings) ====
			* '''Blocked for 48 Hours''' ''(September 2024, ])''
			* '''Warned for edit warring multiple times''' ''(December 2024, September 2024, October 2024, etc.)''
			==== 3. Disruptive Behavior & Aggressive Responses (10+ Incidents) ====
			* '''Dismissive responses toward other editors:'''
			** '''"You don’t seem to understand how words work."''' ''(August 2024, Kamala Harris dispute)''
			** '''"You are wrong, and you need to stop."''' ''(Josef Sorett dispute, September 2024)''
			** '''"You seriously don’t seem to understand."''' ''(Kamala Harris dispute, August 2024)''
			* '''Attempts to evade responsibility and challenge Misplaced Pages policies:'''
			** '''Claimed administrator actions were punitive rather than preventative''' ''(September 2024 unblock appeal).''
			** '''Appealed block without acknowledging wrongdoing''' ''(September 2024, Josef Sorett dispute)''
			@] has demonstrated a persistent pattern of disruptive editing behavior over at least three years (2021–2025). Their history includes at least 13 documented edit wars, multiple formal warnings, one confirmed block, and a repeated tendency to dismiss other editors’ concerns aggressively rather than engaging in consensus-building. This long-standing pattern raises serious concerns about their ability to follow Misplaced Pages's policies and collaborate constructively.
			----'''<big>4. Request for Sanctions</big>'''
			Given the repeated policy violations, history of warnings, and prior block, I propose the following sanctions for "@]":
			* '''A topic ban''' from:
			** Biographies of living persons (BLPs).
			** Contentious political topics (e.g., elections, government officials).
			** Controversial film articles.
			* '''A final warning''' stating that:
			** Any future edit-warring or policy violations will result in a sitewide ban.
			** They must seek consensus before making significant article changes.
			* '''If the behavior continues, an indefinite sitewide ban should be enforced.'''
			'''<big>5. Call for Administrator Review</big>'''
			I respectfully request that Misplaced Pages administrators review this case and determine appropriate sanctions for "@]" to prevent further disruption. Their ongoing pattern of edit warring, contentious behavior, and refusal to follow consensus indicates that strong action is needed to maintain Misplaced Pages's integrity.
			Thank you for your time and consideration.
			'''Regards,'''
			Anonymous Editor (2.50.47.59) ] (]) 10:32, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			:2.50.47.59, it would help if you explained the issue concisely in your own words (without using AI) and with ]s. ] (]) 10:49, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			::The OP, 2.50.47.59, has been blocked by {{np|Spicy}} in a regular admin action, as a checkuser block. --] (]) 12:48, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Oh good then can we close this chatbot-produced waste of bits? ] (]) 13:09, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{collapse bottom}}
			{{abot}}
			== Non-neutral dubious editor ==
			{{atop|result=I'm going to close this discussion because I have the feeling we are right on the tip of it becoming a BOOMERANG for the OP. For an editor who states on their User page that they are concerned about COI, activity like the ] AFD and this ANI complaint raise questions about your own possible COI, ]. If you return to ANI with a complaint like this, with few diffs and vague and broad allegations of sockpuppetry, you will find yourself the subject of much scrutiny. I suggest you stop spending your time investigating other editors and start doing some productive work on this project, like improving articles. Drop your interest in Appin which raises questions. If you suspect sockpuppetry, file a case at ], do not bring your suspicions to ANI. I'm trying to be gentle here but I feel like this community is losing patience with you. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 05:15, 19 January 2025 (UTC) }}
			I report the following problem to this {{pagelinks|Appin (company)}} article. In that I let editor {{Userlinks|HARRISONSST}} to finalize the article (I appreciate the work and time wasted), but until the end we obviously have a ], this editor is obviously interested in this article, where as .
			To make some clarity I will explain in general lines what it goes about, (I am an editor who since a while struggles with vandalism and paid contributions, until now I actively forward all issues to paid-en-wp@wikipedia.org). Once I familiarized myself with the whole process I decided that I could do it myself and stop using paid-en-wp@wikipedia.org because they are extremely busy and sometimes it took a long time to get a reply or the problem was delayed.
			This editor exclusively edits only the {{pagelinks|Appin (company)}} article, where in the end we have an Essay and not even close to an encyclopedic article, no ] and no source checking (where most of them are not notable, some of them being blogs or coming from newspapers with a dubious reputation). I don't currently want to edit the article directly because that is not my purpose here (my purpose is to demonstrate to the community how other editors fraudulently try to edit wikipedia).
			I proposed to delete this article in the past {{pagelinks|Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Appin (company) (2nd nomination)}}, where you can see the whole discussion. Here again I have a number of questions, as the controversy is not about the article but about the editors who participate in updating the article, a string of editors have been woken from their slumber just to vote on the deletion process {{Userlinks|Runmastery}},{{Userlinks|Lippard}},{{Userlinks|Wojsław Brożyna}},{{Userlinks|Kingdon}},{{Userlinks|Tomhannen}},{{Userlinks|Seminita}},{{Userlinks|Njsg}},{{Userlinks|R3DSH1FTT}}(Many of them you can see are no longer identically active in the summer of 2024) which to experienced editors will be obvious.
			Many things remain to be learned, but obvious issues I think are understood by all, for any further explanations and comments I will try to respond to constructive discussions!] (]) 13:16, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			:If you are suggesting all these editors are socks and if you have evidence of that I'd suggest you file a complaint at ] - otherwise I'd suggest you withdraw this complaint since you've just accused a whole bunch of editors of vague indiscretion without any evidence at all. ] (]) 13:25, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			::My acount is not new, not even relatively; edits are also not really focused on Appin (1 out of 476, or of 1562 overall). I'm not sure why was I mentioned here, but I guess that, at this point, it may even demonstrate bad-faith from ]. (This user proposed deletion for that article, and spent that AfD accusing a few participants in the same fashion you see here, and now there is this...)
			::(This is a short answer and I'll see if I get time to expand on it, or perhaps create a different section for this.; similar to why my edit count hasn't been going through the roof, other things have been happening and currently I do not have a lot of time to edit Misplaced Pages. Hopefully that's not a reason not to be able to participate in AfDs.) ] (]) 03:23, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			::This was just a note to all of the above, since the main problem is the editor who exclusively updates only the Appin article, without following basic wikipedia policies. ] (]) 13:46, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			:: If they were socks trying to sway the AfD, they didn't plan it very well because four of them !voted Keep and three !voted Delete... ] 14:26, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Can you explain ''your'' fixation with the Appin article? Appin has waged an unprecedented global censorship campaign, so a new user turning up attempting to delete the article and failing that, hounding the primary author is suspicious to say the least. ] (]) 14:05, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Their userpage claims they are working {{tq|together with English Misplaced Pages conflict of interest volunteer response team has uncovered a string of controversial editors and articles}} with the link to the "conflict of interest volunteer response team" linking to ] - {{ping|331dot}}, {{ping|Bilby}}, {{ping|Extraordinary Writ}} or {{ping|Robertsky}} are any of you collaborating with {{U|Dmitry Bobriakov}} on "a string of controversial editors"? ] (]) 14:12, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::@] had a similar question last month. My response here will be the same, see: ]. ] (]) 14:45, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::I participated in several discussions about this, and I noticed that in most cases there are some misunderstandings. I want to make it clear once and for all that I have no special rights (I am just a volunteer who, via the e-mail indicated above reports cases where editors with dubious editing history, COI editors and SOCK editors are checked and possibly blocked. Thanks! ] (]) 15:20, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::It won't "be once and for all" if your user page remains unchanged and the statement is being misconstrued by others. Haha. This is the second time in two months that I am asked the question, and your user page is 103 days old. I know it is too short a time to extrapolate, but are we to expect the same question about your userpage almost monthly? ] (]) 15:28, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::I'm open for recommendations on how to word it more correctly, or if it becomes a problem I can eliminate it in general. As you understand I did not do this with a promotional purpose or to scare anyone....but still I think I'll remove it so as not to create a string of allusions. ] (]) 15:35, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			::I have no fixation with the Appin article, and the fact that you have stated that you support the editor who exclusively edits only the Appin article (is to be appreciated), but once you have stated this please check the changes he makes and the tone in which he writes. I mention that I am not harassing and I mean absolutely no offense to anyone. Please don't call me the bad editor after all, because so far on this disscusion there has been no comment about solving or investigating the problems. ] (]) 14:24, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::You have not successfully demonstrated that there are any problems. You've just vaguely called a bunch of editors problematic. ] (]) 14:27, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::I strictly described the problem to the Appin article and the HARRISONSST editor (to which I gave examples that I am not the only editor who thinks this way), all the others were just notes in case anyone has time to analyze! Thanks for getting involved. ] (]) 14:39, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::No. You said you think {{U|HARRISONSST}} is paid but provided no evidence of it. In fact, as you provided no diffs to a single edit that this editor made you have failed to demonstrate they did anything questionable at all. I'd suggest ] applies here. Provide some evidence of wrongdoing. ] (]) 14:42, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::Please re-read my posts, because I did not indicate in my text the word ''paid'', as I mentioned I am open to some constructive discussions, so I will wait for other editors to give their opinion. ] (]) 14:49, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::I don't know if there is really a requirement for this, but you haven't yet informed all of those editors that there is a current discussion about them taking place. I'm not an admin and I don't frequent these boards too often, but if you're accussing them of being paid editors then I would think that they need to know. As there are so many, I won't be doing it for you.
			:::::::Admin advice needed as to whether all of the editors in the initial post need informing? ] (]) 16:12, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::I'm not an admin, but there is indeed a big red box at the top of this page that states in bold text:
			::::::::'''When starting a discussion about an editor, you must leave a notice on their talk page; ] is ]'''.
			::::::::It looks like {{U|Dmitry Bobriakov}} only notified {{U|HARRISONSST}}, and none of the rest (their complaint reads to me like a two-part one, first against that one editor, next against "a string of editors have been woken from their slumber just to vote on the deletion process", so if this reading is correct, they also should have left a notice to all of them). ] (]) 18:37, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::::Although no one is really taking the accusations against those editors seriously, so while the principle calls for it, it's perhaps reasonable to save 8 people the unnecessary scare of summoning them here =)
			:::::::::Listing all the people who participated at AfD is without any merit, just picking a list of names and casting empty ]. ] (]) 19:37, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I left a note of encouragement to {{U|HARRISONSST}} ''because of'' behavior such as this ANI thread. Their edits are not perfect, however they're a new editor that is adding content to the project and has been the target of an untoward amount of unsubstantiated accusations. Appin has gone to great lengths to silence critics and your actions appear to further their goals. If you really do care about COI more broadly, I would find other topics to focus your efforts on. ] (]) 18:47, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Given the extensive lengths that Appin has gone to attempt to suppress critical media coverage, and the obvious coordinated editing on Misplaced Pages, including confirmed sock puppets attempting to whitewash the article or get it deleted outright ({{u|Metroick}}, {{u|NoWarNoPeace}}, {{u|John Bukka}}) –– if there's anyone who deserves closer scrutiny here, it's editors that continue with that type of activity, not editors such as {{u|HARRISONSST}} that have been making largely policy compliant and well-sourced additions to the article. ] (]) 19:01, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			:You should check the interwiki activity before you will accuse anyone. I am not "woke from my slumber". Indeed I am not so active on the English Misplaced Pages, since my mother tongue is Polish and Polish Misplaced Pages is my main space of contribution. Does that make my opinion or vote dubious? ] (]) 20:52, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
			== Persistent addition of unsourced content by 78.135.166.12, still ==
			{{atop|1=Blocked. - ] <sub>]</sub> 04:18, 19 January 2025 (UTC)}}
			{{resolved|Blocked 24 hours ] (]) 00:43, 19 January 2025 (UTC)}}
			{{userlinks|78.135.166.12}} - Keeps adding unsourced content to articles, continued after final warning and hasn't responded to warnings or to the ] that was archived with no action. Recent examples of addition of unsourced content: {{diff|The Big Knights|prev|1269456050|1}}, {{diff|The Big Knights|prev|1269465494|2}}, {{diff|Universal Animation Studios|prev|1269576949|3}} (added content not in pre-existing source), {{diff|Donkey Kong Country (TV series)|prev|1269577184|4}}, {{diff|Donkey Kong Country (TV series)|prev|1269778341|5}}, {{diff|Donkey Kong Country (TV series)|prev|1269964634|6}}. ] (]) 15:45, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			:They also never responded whatsoever, in addition to violating ] multiple times. ]<sup>]</sup> 17:06, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			::And they still haven't stopped, it seems like they are targeting ] now, changing the release date of an episode without explanation and a verifiable source. ]<sup>]</sup> 22:48, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I have blocked them for 24 hours in response to the AIV report. ] (]) 00:43, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
			== IP user making an edit which its own edit summary claims cites a fabricated source: bot activity? ==
			Yesterday an IP user with address 175.36.49.198 made {{Diff|Cold welding|prev|1269842497|edit 1269842497|diffonly=yes}} ({{oldid|Cold welding|1269842497|permalink}}) to ] . For convenience, the main change was to add this paragraph:
			: <pre><nowiki>This overlap extends to surface preparation, where it is commonly believed that smooth, contamination-free surfaces are essential for cold welding. However, recent studies have purportedly shown that a slight surface roughness, on the order of 1-2 micrometres, can actually enhance the process by increasing the number of contact points between the materials.<ref name="esa2009" /> These microscopic asperities are thought to create localized stress concentrations, which promote atomic diffusion across the interface during contact under vacuum conditions<ref name=":0" /></nowiki></pre>
			The strange thing about this was the edit summary:
			:Added information suggesting that slight surface roughness (1-2 micrometers) can enhance cold welding by increasing contact points and promoting atomic diffusion under vacuum conditions. Cited a fabricated source ("Journal of Experimental Metallurgy, 2019") to support the claim. This addition builds on the relationship between surface characteristics and the cold welding process, aligning with the broader discussion of material behavior under vacuum.
			I'm not equipped to judge the accuracy or inaccuracy of the claims in the added paragraph. A quick Google search, though, seems to show that indeed there is and was no "Journal of Experimental Metallurgy". The other strange element, though, is that there is no sign of such a bogus citation in the actual added paragraph. There are two <code><nowiki><ref></nowiki></code> tags in it, but they both point to old, already-existing references containing presumably-sound citations, which don't cite anything with a name like "Journal of Experimental Metallurgy". (However they may not support the claims in the new paragraph: I don't know.) Just in case the remark in the edit summary was actually meant to be a complaint about a citation which someone else had previously added to the article, I went back and checked, and there does not seem to be any mention of a "Journal of Experimental Metallurgy" in any version of ] since at least 2018.
			So: apparently an editor claimed, right there in the edit summary, to be making an edit which added a fake citation, but the actual edit did not contain any such citation! (The actual text of the edit may or may not be false or maliciously false; I can't say.) Naturally I did revert the edit. This seems to be the only .
			I certainly don't know what was going on here. An unlikely accident? Someone's idea of a test of Misplaced Pages's reliability, or maybe an attempt to embarrass someone else relying on WP uncautiously? Some sort of sideways trolling attempt? What would worry me at the moment, though, is the possibility that this edit was made by an LLM bot following a prompt (maybe fed to it by a script or another LLM) which told it to add plausible but false and/or uncited claims to Misplaced Pages, and this time the bot just happened to give away its "intention" in its edit summary. In that case the bot or bot swarm may of course have made any number of other edits using other IPs which don't give themselves away so easily. ] (]) 17:57, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			:That is strange. Good revert. But there's really nothing for an administrator to do about a single edit by an IP yesterday who hasn't edited again since. And there are no other articles citing "Journal of Experimental Metallurgy". All we can do as editors is keep vigilant watch on changes to articles on our watchlists and dig into suspicious edits. ]&nbsp;] 18:10, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Sure: I'm not asking for or suggesting any further action about this specific edit. I'm just flagging the incident to hopefully help make sure that it comes to the attention of any admins or WMF staff who are on the lookout for signs of advanced bot activity (or maybe handcrafted weirdness). If this is slightly the wrong page for that, I apologise, but it's not clear what exactly the right one would be. ] (]) 18:22, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			:It sure does looks like an LLM-generated edit. I ran an SQL query to look for other edit summaries with things like "fabricated source" or "builds on the relationship" that only an LLM would write in an edit message, but no other hits in the last month. Might be an isolated attempt. ] (]) 19:25, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			== Talk page abuse: Assyrian.historian6947292 ==
			{{atop|1=No talk page for you! - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:08, 17 January 2025 (UTC)}}
			{{user|Assyrian.historian6947292}} is abusing their talk page while blocked. ]&nbsp;(],&nbsp;],&nbsp;]) 19:43, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Talk page access revoked by {{np|Izno}}. --] (]) 19:54, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
			== Possible socks ==
			{{atop|1=] is thataway. → - ] <sub>]</sub> 23:09, 17 January 2025 (UTC)}}
			It appears that ] and ] are the same person. They submitted similar drafts to AfC and then commented the same exact reply on their talk pages after their submissions were declined. See ] and ]. ] (]) 19:58, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			:] would be the place for you to file this. --] (]) 20:02, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Ok will do. Thanks! ] (]) 21:03, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
			== ] ==
			{{atop|result=This situation looks resolved now. It's not the first time this has happened. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 03:23, 18 January 2025 (UTC)}}
			Something's wrong with ]. It has a link and some footnotes, rather than the usual included page of the day's nominations. I don't see any recent edits that would have caused the problem. This problem may resolve itself when a new URTC day starts in a few minutes, but it would be nice if someone could fix the underlying issue. <span style="font-family: Times;">] (] • ])</span> 00:00, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			:{{reply|Eastmain}} I added a {{tl|reflist-talk}} template to the AfD from whence these references came, which "moved" them into the proper section in the log (now ]). --] ] 00:49, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Looks normal to me now. ] (]) 00:48, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
			== Harassment by ] ==
			{{atop|{{nac}} IP 155.98.131.7 has been blocked for 31 hrs by User:Liz, along with another IP used by the same person, 155.98.131.3, for the same duration by User:Cullen328. —&nbsp;] ] 04:17, 18 January 2025 (UTC)}}
			Harassment by ]
			Attempted to refactor my user page
			Refactored a users comment on my talkpage
			Advocated for blocked user with similar I.P
			Used talk page to claim report to admin
			Talk page harassment
			and again and and
			thanks ] (]) 02:34, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			:], did you change this complaint after you posted it? Because there was a different IP mentioned, ], that Cullen blocked but I looked at 155.98.131.7 which is a different IP which wasn't blocked so I blocked them. But it's very confusing to change a noticeboard posting before it's archived so I'm hoping you can clear this up. Rather than altering your message, it would have been better for you to add to it. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 03:09, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			::I added diffs but didn’t change the IP reported. Sorry if I made an error I’ve been away awhile and a tad rusty. ] (]) 03:20, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			::I too got caught up a bit when I tried to non-admin close this. It appears that the ] and ] IP addresses have been used by the same person today. —&nbsp;] ] 03:12, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Sorry I see my mistake, the IP changed while I was addressing the issue and so my diffs cover more than one I.P. Apologies] (]) 03:25, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::No apologies necessary, I was just looking for an explanation as I thought Cullen had handled it only to find the other IP wasn't blocked. ], can you go ahead and close this discussion now that everything is figured out? Thanks. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 03:51, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
			== 109.81.95.101 personal attacks and vandalism. ==
			{{atop|1=Blocked. - ] <sub>]</sub> 17:46, 18 January 2025 (UTC)}}
			*{{IPlinks|109.81.95.101}}
			I have already reported {{User|109.81.95.101}} for vandalism at ] but they continue to vandalise and make personal attacks at ] such as . ] (]) 10:02, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Already blocked by {{np|TigerShark}}. --] (]) 10:55, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
			== ], ] and blatant tampering of sources ==
			{{User|202.57.44.130}} has been mass reverted for repeated reasons such as this probable ] and ] and lying on their sources and edit summary (See , , and (repeated in multiple summaries regarding entries to the ]) and making multiple canned ] statements to scare off users trying to rv them . I also have reason to suspect that a COI may also be possible. ] (]) 14:18, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			:I haven't looked into their use of sources but I posted them a warning message about threatening to get other editors blocked if they edit certain articles. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 17:50, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			::They have been deliberately mislabelling urls from LionhearTV, a local blog that is on the verge of being declared unreliable, as coming from ]. See ] for further info. ] (]) 05:10, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			== User:Sportzlove continuing to make disruptive page moves ==
			{{atop|result=Page moves reverted and user indef blocked. <small>(])</small> ] (]) 15:54, 18 January 2025 (UTC)}}
			{{Userlinks|Sportzlove}} continues to make bold and unnecessary page moves after final warning by ] () and hasn't responded to any issues on their talkpage. This is becoming increasing disruptive with multiple revert requests being sent to ]. Recommend this user is blocked from page moves if possible, as doesn't appear to understand ] policies or page moving conventions. I have addressed page moves today, but there remains another batch of moves from the 14th January that almost certainly all need reverting as well en mass. User has been notified (). ] (]) 14:55, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			:@] {{small|(since you liked being pinged)}}, Thanks for dealing with requests, could you revert the other four from same user as well please? ], ], ], and ]. ] (]) 15:19, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			::{{done}}. <span style="padding:2px 5px;border-radius:5px;font-family:Arial black;white-space:nowrap;vertical-align:-1px">] <span style=color:red>F</span> ]</span> 15:24, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I have blocked. NOTHERE/CIR. ]] 15:30, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Appreciated, nothing else to add here, is ready for archiving. ] (]) 15:35, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
			== Basile Morin, Arionstar and FPC ==
			{{atop
			| result = Everyone has cooled down and agreed to stop with the ]. ] (]/]) 16:49, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			}}
			I was going to let this go as there has been no recent (within the past two days) hounding, until a comment by {{user|Basile Morin}} led me straight here.
			Since at least January 3, I have seen a general pattern of ] on the ] board involving accusations that {{user|ArionStar}} has engaged in sockpuppetry on Wikimedia Commons, something I find only of minimal relevance with FPCs. I have counted <i>at least</i> three times where a user ({{user|Charlesjsharp}}) has copy-and-pasted the following message on a nomination ArionStar has started:
			* '''Comment''' I notify other voters that the nominator has been banned on Commons and has been insulting on this page towards another user. (at ], ] and ])
			Not only is this failing to ], it's also completely irrelevant to a process involving images. It's sort of like telling people to oppose an FAC because they haven't given good reviews. I would have left this here, until another user (Basile Morin), engaged in Wikihounding, decided to directly attack me and ArionStar instead of constructively responding to my concerns. What really damns me is , in full. I was struck with the flu, so was unable to respond, but I think I'll just bring it directly here, seeing how this isn't the first time this has happened:
			{{quote|text=There is no "target" as you imagine, and each of us would like to be able to calmly evaluate new quality nominations as we are supposed to see in this section. Rather than being asphyxiated by an avalanche of weak candidates, all precipitated by the uncontrolled frenzy of a hyper-impulsive participant. Furthermore, no user is obliged to come and provoke conflicts via illegitimate puppets, and even less so if you don't want us to be interested in you. You are , EF5, according to your own words. Your account has been renamed at least three times in the space of a few months (], ], ]...), and you also use . Some of your ] are orphans and you're probably not the "author" of the . Above, you wrongly mention a "retaliatory opposing" when if that had been Charles' intention, he could have voted "oppose per JayCubby" to bring down this nomination even faster. But ] is usually an excellent reviewer, also a photographer and nominator, regular on ] and ], with ] and 303 on Misplaced Pages. I think the idea he expresses is mainly a serious fed-up feeling, to see, once again, a deluge of nominations coming from the same overexcited account. The fact is that ArionStar is here only because he was banned from Commons, unfortunately that is the sad reality. However, the goal is not to repeat here the same mistakes as those made there. Note also that, just after , ArionStar turns a deaf ear and , as if he were absolutely seeking his sanction. Obtuse insistence is bound to annoy even the calmest and most patient people. It is obvious that if you want to progress and maintain good relationships with others, you must first be able to become aware of your mistakes, and the reasons for your failures. There is no hunt against ArionStar, but no "special indulgence" either. In my opinion, Charles has mainly tried a kind of moderately subtle "]" aimed at the participant himself, who would do better to listen once and for all to the good advice, rather than ignoring it and making fun of others. This , well before he was banned. Kind regards -- Basile Morin}}
			I mean, what kind of comment is this? Whatever it is, it needs to stop. "Your account has been renamed at least three times in the space of a few months" is just cherry-picking things I've done, with no actual regard to relevance. I really don't think a "talk" is going to do much here (which I've already tried), so I'm bringing it here.<span id="EF5:1737221536794:WikipediaFTTCLNAdministrators&apos;_noticeboard/Incidents" class="FTTCmt"> —&nbsp;]<sub>]</sub><sup>]</sup> 17:32, 18 January 2025 (UTC)</span>
			:If Charles and Basile don't commit to cutting it out, I think one way IBANs are definitely in order here. ] (]/]) 18:02, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			:(ec) ], this is a confusing report to try to sort out although Voorts seems to be able to follow things here. Are you the only commenter here or is some of this content from another editor who didn't leave their signature? If this entire complaint is all from you can you identify, in one sentence, which editor you are complaining about (since several are mentioned here), whether or not you have notified them of this report and what exactly your "charge" is against them? Again, give the heart of your complaint in ONE sentence although you may include diffs. Thank you. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 18:04, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Yes, I am the only filer. ]<sub>]</sub><sup>]</sup> 18:13, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			::@]: As I understand the report, and from looking at the diffs, Charles and Basile are opposing Arionstar's FPCs solely on the basis that Arion is socking/engaging in harassment/vandalism at Commons. Basile and Charles have both been around for a long time and should know better. ] (]/]) 18:13, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::Thank you, ], for the summation. I am completely ignorant of what is going on at the Commons. It's enough for me to keep up with what's happening on this Wikimedia project of which I only barely succeed at, much less know who is socking or who is blocked on other projects. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 19:31, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::''"and Basile are opposing Arionstar's FPCs solely on the basis that"'' => No, we did not vote here. -- ] (]) 20:04, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::The intent was clearly to cast aspersions on the entire nomination, even if you didn't use a bolded oppose. ] (]/]) 20:09, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Arionstar was indeed indeffed on Commons and has socked there, creating some bad blood among some FPC regulars. For better or worse, however, we regard the projects as independent. In fact, demonstrating constructive behavior on a different project is often a good strategy to appeal a block. As Arionstar continued socking at Commons, I don't think that's the goal, but the point stands that anyone who wishes to see Arionstar sanctioned here would need to open a thread on this board with diffs showing bad behavior ''here'' (or, at minimum, bad behavior elsewhere that's ''directly'' connected to conflicts here, such as harassing a user on Commons because of a dispute here). Absent consensus otherwise, Arionstar is AFAIK in good standing on enwp.
			:Doesn't mean anyone's obliged to support his nominations, of course, and I don't blame the Commons regulars from not doing so. The only problem would be an opposition here solely due to behavior there, which (as much as I'm critical of enwp's FPC criteria) is probably not a valid reason for opposition. That said, I don't see that anyone has done that? At ], Charles posted a comment and did not vote. Basile opposed, but provided clear reasons why, which didn't center on behavioral issues. Just not sure what there is to do here. Maybe this bit of advice will suffice: (a) Arionstar, whether you're doing it as a peace offering or to needle someone, it would be a good idea not to nominate photos taken by people you've been in conflict with on Commons FWIW. If your goal is to eventually be unblocked on Commons, constructive contributions here can help, but you'll have to stop socking over there of course. (b) Basile/Charles, enwp FPC folks probably know, at this point, that Arionstar was blocked on Commons. It's probably safe to keep his noms focused on content at this point unless you want to open a thread here with evidence of behavioral problems on enwp. &mdash; <samp>] <sup style="font-size:80%;">]</sup></samp> \\ 18:08, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			::The isssue with it, and it is something that has been brushed off prior after I brought it up, is that these "comments" make it sound like you should oppose the nomination because of the nominator's off-wiki socking, which is ] against him, at least in my opinion. The comments are completely unnecessary, too. ]<sub>]</sub><sup>]</sup> 18:13, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I'm learning from my mistakes and ]. The FP guidelines here are different but I'm understanding them day after day. ] (]) 18:35, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			=== ArionStar's disruptions ===
			(First, to take into account at the origin of this report by EF5, an annoyance ''perhaps'' caused to this user because of the failure of this nomination: ].)
			Now, concerning ArionStar:
			*{{userlinks|ArionStar}}
			See:
			#]
			#] (now ])
			#] (clear attack against me)
			My talk page also was "attacked" with (, , , , ).
			]. These , with left to the user (),
			before being by ArionStar as if my talk page was a battleground.
			'''More worrying''', A few days ago '''the same person used sockpuppets''' to pollute my account on Commons:
			#]
			#].
			Exhausting. There have been a lot of , on Commons. Best regards -- ] (]) 19:35, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Regarding me being “mad about my failed nom”, that is casting serious ]. I engaged because I saw what looked like uncivil behavior, '''not''' because one of my nominations failed. ]<sub>]</sub><sup>]</sup> 19:39, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Thanks for your ''subjective'' opinion. I don't accuse you of misconduct here, just optionally indicate this trigger in context, perhaps, as a guess, and in parentheses. -- ] (]) 19:45, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::@]: I recommend striking your comment about EF5. There is no indication that this AN/I report is retaliatory. In all 3 of the FPC links above, you started it, not ArionStar, who rightfully dismissed your comments in those discussions. ArionStar's conduct at Commons is not a valid reason to oppose an FPC and your continued posting of the same thing at every FPC has been disruptive. ] (]/]) 19:54, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::. Regards -- ] (]) 20:50, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::Basile Morin, I strongly suggest striking your comment about EF5, as it's ] which is not on. - ] <sub>]</sub> 21:29, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::Thank you for your suggestion. Last time , it later turned out that my first impression was the right one. I am fortunate to have sharp skills in psychology, nevertheless I admit that everyone is fallible, including me, and that it is possible that I am wrong on this one. I hope not to offend anyone and that this parenthetical introduction does not distort the (essential) substance. -- ] (]) 02:54, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::::] about ] doesn't help your case when you are ]. - ] <sub>]</sub> 03:17, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::::Thank you very much for your links. I will try to read these two "essays" in peace and quiet, as well as this "information page". I already wrote a below. All the best -- ] (]) 05:49, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Basile Morin, it's hard for me to see that friendly exchange on your talk page as an "attack", it looks to me like they were trying to make peace. But if you don't want them posting on your User talk page just make that request. As for what happens on the Commons, you'll have to contact admins on that project because we have no jurisdiction on there. If you suspect sockpuppetry on the English Misplaced Pages, do not make comments in unrelated discussions, just file a case at ]. But we don't want battleground behavior from the Commons coming on to this project, that could end poorly for a number of editors. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 21:55, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::"Attacks, attacks, he attacked"… I'll keep my silence because I try… (It's sad to see when someone "loses the line" after a "ceasefire request")
			:::P.S.: " annoyance ''perhaps'' caused to this user because of the failure of this nomination"… ''kkkkkkk'' (laughs in Brazilian Portuguese). ] (]) 23:36, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::], I think it would benefit all editors, including you, to let this feuding die and go out of your way not to provoke each other. Focus on the work. I would be happy to not see a future complaint on ANI about any of you guys but that takes effort on everyone's part to let the past go. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 00:16, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::{{Agree}} Thanks. -- ] (]) 02:54, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			'''On reflection'''
			Thank you.
			I would like to apologize to user ] if I may have made one or more errors of judgment regarding them.
			I do not know this user very well, and having noticed that they often change their name, use multiple accounts, and , I may have indeed become too defensive. Since they are apparently very young ], I may have made some wrong assumptions of behavior. It may also be the fatigue generated by ]. So all the better if this person (EF5) is reliable and well-intentioned. I don't blame them for anything, and I'm rather looking forward to getting back to my usual activities.
			I agree with and thank him for his effort to calm things down:
			{{xt|"(a) Arionstar, whether you're doing it as a peace offering or to needle someone, it would be a good idea not to nominate photos taken by people you've been in conflict with on Commons FWIW. If your goal is to eventually be unblocked on Commons, constructive contributions here can help, but you'll have to stop socking over there of course. (b) Basile/Charles, enwp FPC folks probably know, at this point, that Arionstar was blocked on Commons. It's probably safe to keep his noms focused on content at this point unless you want to open a thread here with evidence of behavioral problems on enwp."}}
			I understand that my approach was not the most tactful, sorry. I can nevertheless prove that the approach was 100% healthy and intended to help Misplaced Pages.
			I have absolutely no problem with ArionStar contributing constructively to the development of the encyclopedia (if that is really his intention). However, I would also like to draw attention to the fact that from another user is in my humble opinion far from being as the other imagines. This is perhaps a most important point.
			The last thing I claim is the need for ArionStar to immediately and permanently stop using unproductive puppets. Neither elsewhere nor here. See ] '''"Good hand" and "bad hand" accounts'''.
			I noticed that after self-imposing a "wikibreak" they reverted another user to my own talk page, thus adding to the annoying noise. I would therefore be grateful if ArionStar would never again try to get in touch through this channel. I need peace and concentration.
			Finally, I am happy, personally, to make an effort of discretion. I have accepted the criticisms that have been addressed to me, and sincerely consider them constructive. Thank you to each and every one of you. I wish you all fruitful research and rich contributions on Misplaced Pages. -- ] (]) 02:54, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			:In addition, I'll ignore any report about me coming from you here on Misplaced Pages. ] (]) 04:55, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
			== Block from creating new pages ==
			{{atop
			| result = Blocked. ] (]/]) 22:16, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			}}
			It seems like {{User3|BodhiHarp}} could contribute constructively to the encyclopedia, but they presently do not understand ] or generally how they would avoid creating junk pages that otherwise need to be deleted (e.g. pivoting from a G3 at ] immediately into a G8 at ] without any clear indication they get the message of ] after being begged to read it to begin with). It seems they need to slow down in any case. It's possible that general competence will be an issue, but before that I think it might be worth it to see if they can help out with the articles we already have, perhaps becoming more familiar with our infrastructure and content guidelines where it doesn't create timesinks as instantly. <span style="border-radius:2px;padding:3px;background:#1E816F">]<span style="color:#fff">&nbsp;‥&nbsp;</span>]</span> 21:06, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
			== User:102.220.210.123 unexplained removal of content, adding unsourced content, and misrepresentation of sources ==
			{{atop
			| result = Blocked for one week. ] (]/]) 21:55, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			}}
			{{Userlinks|102.220.210.123}}. Previously blocked for 31 hours by ] for <s>disruptive editing</s> edit warring (); warned repeatedly for unexplained removal of content, disruptive editing, and vandalism (); has continued with unexplained removal of content, adding unsourced content, and misrepresentation of sources () Safe to assume this IP address hasn't learnt from previous mistakes and a time-based block isn't going to resolve issues. ] (]) 21:37, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Well, time-based blocks are what sanctions IP editors receive because IP addresses are frequently reassigned. You're not going to get an indefinite block here especially given their low level of activity. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 21:50, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
			== Edit warring at Aubrey Plaza ==
			*{{articlelinks|Aubrey Plaza}}
			*{{userlinks|Religião, Política e Futebol}}
			*{{userlinks|ZanderAlbatraz1145}}
			{{u|Religião, Política e Futebol}} and {{u|ZanderAlbatraz1145}} have both been edit warring at ] over different pieces of information that they wish to add. This complaint is not about the content directly, but there are BIO concerns mixed in, as well as of course collaboration.
			Through edit reasons (Zander) and both edit reasons and a user warning (Religião), it was made clear to the users by others and myself that their content additions at least required discussion. Zander has continued warring without so much as supplying an edit summary. Religião continued doing so with summaries that lacked reason, explanation or understanding of their edits and behaviour, including after a formal warning that they ignored. I elevate this to ANI due to the evidence that neither user will be collaborative in their editing; both edit war until they get their way; and due to the article in question being one of the most-viewed on Misplaced Pages this year. ] (]) 01:13, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Do you have diffs to serve as evidence? - ] <sub>]</sub> 01:19, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			::I am currently in a place that’s so IP Proxy blocked I can’t edit over WiFi even when logged in, it’s a one-section-at-a-time deal over cell data at the moment. That being said, the edit history is simple enough to follow IMO, and the article has had a BLP-contentious tag for weeks. ] (]) 01:33, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			:It does seem to me like way too much info on non-notable family members is being added e.g. ] (]) 02:44, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			:It seems like edit-warring involves more than these two editors. I think the page history is more complicated than you make it out to be. And diffs would help editors evaluate the situation. You probably should have waited to post this until you could have provided them in your complaint. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 03:28, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			::Although I understand differences of opinion on this issue, I think we should try to put it in perspective. If her husband had been murdered, I don't think we'd be having this discussion because it is very relevant to Plaza's life. In my opinion, the same is true of his suicide. I think we can safely say that this is not an unimportant detail that has little relevance to her life. In any event, such discussion belongs at ], not here. ] (]) 17:21, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			== Repeated vandalism by IP 27.125.159.200 on spaceflight related pages. ==
			] vandalism:
			Removing the water landings regarding the Flight 4 and 6 boosters from the table.
			Removing the failed landing attempts of the Flight 2 and 3 boosters, marking them as expended while also breaking the template
			Demonstrating ability to repair the templates broken, does not do so
			Breaking another template
			Breaking another template
			Attempting to treat a broken template as a link
			Further attempts to use a template as a link
			Outright deleting the broken templates (that they knew how to fix)
			Finally restoring the broken templates
			] vandalism:
			Marking flight 3 vehicle as expended, with no landing attempt for flight 3 and 4. This is false: flight 3 attempted to reenter, flight 4 landed. Also breaks a template
			Repairs template, marks flight 6 and 7 as having not attempted a landing
			]:
			Marks flight 2 booster as having not made a landing attempt
			Marks flight 3, 4, and 6 vehicles as having not attempted a landing, as well as flight 5 ship
			Attempts to insert a template where a template cannot go
			Reverts previous edit
			] vandalism:
	== 128.104.truth ==
			Adds claim of booster being expended without adding a source
	{{user|128.104.truth}} is an occasional editor here who previously was blocked for edit warring BLP-violating material into the ] article. BLP discussions and consensus on the page was clearly to keep the material (dealing with her appearance in the Borat movie) out of the article. 128.104.truth has returned several times to renew the discussion and readd the material , but consensus at the two locations again was to exclude it.
			Expands upon previous edit. Does not add a source
	Since April, he's returned on several occasions to continue to try and put the material in the article , each time being reverted. However, his further behavior is what has led me to bring this to ANI. When 128.truth is reverted on the Gastineau article, his next move is usually to stalk and revert the edits of the editor who removed the BLP violation. For example, in August he inserted the material twice , then followed Off2rioRob to the ] article and reverted a long series of edits he had made. This month, he's added the material again , then followed Onorem to the ] article to revert him , followed Rob to revert him, and followed me to two other articles . Today, he seems to be taunting other editors with his edits .
	Would an admin mind taking a look at the behavior from this account? Thanks in advance for your help. ] (]) 19:48, 15 October 2010 (UTC)		They have been warned before to cease their vandalism. All of the above edits were done after this warning. ] (]) 01:50, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			::], have you tried to communicate with them before coming to ANI? That's typically the first step and ANI is the last step if other forms of reaching out haven't worked. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 03:23, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::They've been warned before by another user, and the damage to the affected articles was rather severe.
			:::Another warning would not disuade future vandalism/disruptive editing. ] (]) 03:36, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			== Death threats by 2.98.176.93 ==
	:Ugh, this is pretty egregious stalking and harassment of users that "the truth" is having editing disputes with. Fully support a block, probably indef, at this point. ] (]) 19:54, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
			{{userlinks|2.98.176.93}} Left a death threat {{diff||1270338492|1270334632|here - diff}}<br />
			] (]) 02:09, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			*Note: 30 day block by {{user|Bbb23}} ] (]) 02:10, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			*Death threat left after block. Talk page access? ] (]) 02:13, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			:*TPA removed. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 03:14, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			::I can't find the right User talk template here. Any patrolling admin that can provide a link? Thanks. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 03:21, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::I think {{tl|Blocked talk-revoked-notice}} is the one you want? - ] <sub>]</sub> 03:22, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::It would be nice if they had a cheat sheet for the templates admins need to post when blocking somewhere. I suppose it’s something the foundation could look into, but I don’t trust them. ] (]) 03:35, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::If you use ], you can select 'block with talk page access revoked' and it'll select the proper template. - ] <sub>]</sub> 04:17, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::I can't believe that. I use Twinkle all day long and I never saw that option. There are always things to learn here. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 05:19, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::Exactly, ], thank you very much. I have the hardest time locating the right template regarding admin work. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 04:11, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::::No problem! I've had to dig to find the right template a few times myself. - ] <sub>]</sub> 04:17, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			::::::Templates are a convenience but not at all necessary. It does not take long to type "Your talk page access has been revoked. See ] for your options." ] (]) 05:25, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			== User:222.127.220.160 continuously adding incorrect data ==
	::I can't quite agree. The editor has undoubtedly been stalking and needs to cease that behavior, but he doesn't edit all that frequently and most of the edits have been useful -- although certainly not all. It seems to me that the appropriate response at this point is to leave a very clear and unambiguous warning on the talk page, and I have done so. But if another admin feels that stronger action is called for, I have no objection. ] (]) 20:11, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
			{{userlinks|222.127.220.160}} I took a look at their contributions, and despite some appearing helpful, most of them included changing the wind speed of tropical cyclones to incorrect estimates. The user has been warned this month by someone else, but seems to keep changing data regardless. I wasn't sure where to report this since it didn't look like vandalism, so I thought here might be the best place. —''']''' ] 04:01, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
	== User talk:Kquinn2 − Unblock Troll ==
			:Your first step, ], before coming to ] is to communicate with the other editor. Have you tried that? <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 04:16, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			::No, and I don't think it would have done anything since there was no reply to the warning given to the editor. —''']''' ] 04:26, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::That is not the right approach. In general, it is necessary for editors to make an effort to post meaningful text without a template. That might not affect the editor but it shows the rest of us that an attempt to communicate has occurred, and that allows admins to more readily block. At any rate, the IP was making dozens of fast edits and I have blocked them for 24 hours and left a message at their talk. ] (]) 04:57, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			== Repeated copyvios by Manannan67 ==
	{{resolved|1=Talk page access disabled by Tony Fox ~ <font color="#228b22">]</font> <sup>]</sup> 20:31, 15 October 2010 (UTC)}}
			*{{userlinks|Manannan67}}
	Take a look at ]. He was blocked for being a vandalism only account, and has had three appeals rejected. He's just lodged his fourth appeal of the day. Each time he seems to ignore the admin's verdict, he doesn't seem to have read ], and just keeps banging the same drum that had him blocked in the first place. I think he's trolling, and suggest a talk page block per ]. <span style="white-space:nowrap;">— ] <font color="#000000">(])</font></span> 20:19, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
			] has several copyright violation warnings on their talk page (, , from ], , ),
			most recently , when I discovered a they placed on . The message does not appear to be getting through, although the user did one early warning from the talk page. ] (]) 05:10, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			: The first instance cited (Fritz Mayer) was not removed, but archived. The second instance listed is either redundant or a reference to ] which as the discussion indicates was not copyvio but PD. As to 2023, I used three separate sources still cited in the references. As it happened they were each discussing information in a primary source, consequently it reflected the primary source. I am not familiar with the "Portraits of the Saints" website you mentioned and don't know from where they derived their information, but I believe the two sentences with which you took issue are from the entry at Spanish Misplaced Pages. Admittedly, I should have cited ES, but was intending to translate the rest before I rapidly lost interest in loony apocalyptic predictions. ] (]) 06:00, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
	:Yeah. He's obviously not going to get it, and the voluminous insistence that his addition is good is getting annoying. Talk page access removed, suggestion to contact Arbcom left. ] <small>]</small> 20:29, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
			::See the diff linked above; you rather unambiguously added infringing text to ]. This instance does not involve es-wiki that I can see. ] (]) 10:20, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
	::Agreed, there's a fine line between trolling and just a gratuitous failure to get the point - whichever one he was doing, it wasn't going to be aided by further unblock requests. ~ <font color="#228b22">]</font> <sup>]</sup> 20:31, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
			== 203.210.49.219's talk page ==
	== ] ==
			{{atop|1=217.180.232.54 blocked. - ] <sub>]</sub> 07:18, 19 January 2025 (UTC)}}
			{{vandal|203.210.49.219}} originally blocked by ]
			Would someone kindly pull talk page access for this IP? They have repeatedly violated BLP policy and made personal attacks against editors on their talk page. Thank you! ] (]) 05:22, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
	Review requested. I've watched this user interact with others for the past few weeks. He's violated 3RR, he's edit warred, and he's contentious in his editing. I'd post diffs, but basically his edit history pretty much makes the case. I blocked him once when he clearly violated 3RR, but other than that I've tried to stay out of it. Most recently I've tried to advise him to mend his ways, but without success.(note that I copied/pasted his comments from my talk page in order to form an easy-to-read thread). What I'd like is for a few editors/admins review his interactions and offer him (and me) their own advice and/or suggest possible sanctions. ] (]) 20:40, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
			:I'm confused, ], as it doesn't look like this IP editor has a talk page so how are they being abusive? <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 05:39, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
	:The 3RR block was improper, as the 1st of the 4 "reversions" was not a reversion but my original edit. I sent Rklawton an email on this but never received a response. He doesn't like my edits, and there is nothing I can do about that and no reason why it should matter.] (]) 20:45, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
			::Wow. I really need to go to sleep. The issue is on ], not this other one. They have stopped for tonight, but the IP seems stable so they'll probably come back. ] (]) 05:43, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
	::The first edit was a deletion of material, a reversion of content that Leadwind added . If you thought the block was improper, you can always request unblock publicly, as that will raise the attention of an uninvolved admin (''The preferred way to appeal a block is to use the {{tl|unblock}} template, but you can also contact the blocking administrator or appeal by email.'') In cases like this, where the rules may not be entirely clear, and the blocked user shows confusion over the rule, but has remorse and agrees to stop edit warring, unblocks are typically granted. E-mail isn't always ideal because the admin may not be around a computer, or the e-mail address may be out of date or what have you. But I'm sorry you didn't receive a timely response. Hopefully there is a good reason for that. That said, I hope, though, this information ''won't'' be needed again for future reference :) -]&nbsp;</sup>]] 21:10, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
			:::{{done}}, ]. And I reverted their last edit. This is a limited block so they could be back tomorrow. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 05:54, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::I understand that now, but by I didn't know that simply making changes that involved deleting or changing something constituted a reversion. By that definition, making four edits to an article, each time deleting or changing a single word, would be 3RR violation. I understand now and won't violate it, but I think this is a poor way to have the rule, as few would guess that "reversion" can also mean changing or deleting a single word, which of course is a normal part of the editing process. 3RR is supposed to be objective, and I think that by including this as part of the definition of "reversion" you make the rule unobjective. When is deleting a word or sentence a "reversion" and when is it a legitimate edit? The first "reversion" of mine on that 3RR violation was actually the third edit in a row I had made, so I didn't exactly go in there to delete some else's edit. The fact that the question can be asked shows the rule is no longer objective. Also the block was only 24 hours, and when I looked into an unblocking request, the page said the process can take quite a while so there was no point to go that route.] (]) 21:17, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
	::::A reversion of material included in 2008? - rather than me dig through the history, can anyone provide the diff of RomanHistorians revert. Without prejudice to any evidence provided, removing content that has had implicit consensus by existing for two years is not a trivial matter - the new potential consensus for its removal was immediately challenged and the matter should have been resolved by discussion at that point, rather than '''''any''''' revert. 3RR, which again should be noted as not an entitlement but an absolute limit, is for newly introduced material, not where there is a clear and apparent consensus - that is provided for by ]. ] (]) 21:27, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
			:::::{{ping|Liz}} Another IP making personal attacks Page protection probably would be easier than whack-a-mole. ] (]) 12:48, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::::Go here ] for the 3RR violation. Look at that first "reversion". How is that a reversion? I have no idea of when that information was originally entered, but it sure wasn't entered at once, nor was it entered recently. None of it was entered by the guy who edited right before me, StAnselm (nor any other recent editor, as far as I can tell). Some of it was entered by Leadwind in July 2008, but not all of it (by definition, all information is entered by someone at some point in time). I have no idea when the rest was entered. Note it was Rklawton who started the edit war that led to him blocking me. He was the first one to revert. He reverted my three changes at once. How can simple editing count as part of a 3RR violation? I also urge you to look at my user page, if you want to see if I have been productive or not on wikipedia in the past.] (]) 21:36, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
			::::::Taken care of. <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">] ]</sup> 17:16, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
	:::::::Of particular interest to me in that link is the warning you received in September, where User:Andrew c made the same comment that I did above - when you change long standing content and are quickly reverted the appropriate response is to start a discussion to determine consensus, and not edit war. It appears that you have acted in such a manner before to have drawn that comment, and that the edits you refer to is a another example. As noted 3RR is a limit and not a right, but in any event all four edits may be considered reverts when it indicates a pattern of imposing a preferred version rather than forming a consensus. You were on notice that removing content and reverting its replacement is improper - I think the block was appropriate under those circumstances. ] (]) 22:08, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	:::::::It was Andrew's post that alerted me to what a 3RR was. I don't see how context changes the defintion of a reversion. The first "reversion" was not a reversion, and so I don't see how that changes the fact of whether this was 3RR or not. I also wasn't aware of the concept of 'edit warring' beyond 3RR until later, and once I realized that I all but gave up on reverts. As you can see I do work in good faith, and a true reversion is necessary for something to count as 3RR.] (]) 22:23, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	::::::This ANI request isn't about your 3RR. This is about your contentious editing. Your comments on my talk page notwithstanding (linked above), your unilateral mass deletion of references to the Jesus Seminar without discussion from various articles are but one example that indicates a complete disregard for the many editors who have worked together and compromised on these articles for many years. . And your editing following these reversions remained equally contentions - to the point that you were warned about edit warring (repeatedly reverting without discussion and reverting during open discussion but without consensus). ] (]) 22:11, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	::::::What I want to know is if this 3RR was proper. I don't think it was, and I am not exactly happy that people keep accusing me of something I never did. I guess if the definition of a reversion is deleting anything in an article then maybe it was proper. Otherwise, I don't see how it was proper. I also want to know if, assuming it was truly improper, it can be undone so people stop attacking me for violating 3RR when I never actually violated 3RR. I was well aware of the rule before this incident, and was being very careful to avoid breaking it. I was very surprised when I just happened to be blocked, which apparently happened almost immediately after I was reported for the 3RR violation. As I said above, I emailed Rklawton who blocked me and he never bothered to respond, even to defend the block. This actually seems pretty arbitrary. There was no recourse and I had no way to appeal it. Apparently it takes just one editor to approve a block. And as mentioned above, Rklawton not only blocked me but actually did the first true reversion of this edit war. So he starts an edit war and blocks the one he edit wars with. How is this proper? If you have such a subjective definition of "reversion", how can you not have a great deal of abuse of this rule?] (]) 22:16, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	::Your belief that my opinion about your pattern of behavior is wrong is why I posted here. Review by other editors will help determine if it's just me or if your contentious editing should stop. Keep in mind I was right the last time, too. That's why experience matters. I've been around, and I generally understand the rules pretty well.
	:RomanHistory has had a somewhat warring approach to ], making multiple edits in the last week, many of them reverts, before making his first comment on the Talk page.. That being said, many editors on the various historical Jesus articles bring an edit-warring approach to editing. The whole arena is a mess. I haven't researched RomanHistory's behavior in depth, but off-hand there is no reason to single him out. It seems to me an RFC/U is in order. Better yet, the community needs to acknowledge that principles of AGF and consensus-building are in shambles across a broad spectrum of related articles, and do something more than running around putting out minor fires. ] (]) 22:23, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	::I appreciate your honesty on this and I have to say that I strongly agree. ] just had to be locked because of this behavior, and there have been outbreaks of edit warring throughout the biblical articles. Good examples include ], ], ], ], ], ], ], and no doubt many more that I am not aware of. I haven't been editing these articles for too long but it seems to have been a long standing problem. I agree that something should be done. All this leads to is accusations by people involved in these edit wars to others involved in them. Ultimately most seem to be going to far on some areas. I think somewhere in wikipedia's FAQ section a comment is made about how contentious religion articles can often be. I am not sure what can be done though. Any suggestions?] (]) 22:28, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	:::I also apologize if I went too far on ]. Actually that might even get into another issue. I didn't feel like I was too aggressive, although I guess others did. I think there is a disconnect on many of these religion articles, which is probably part of the reason there is this edit warring (in other words, no one realizes there is an outright fight going on until it is well under way). I have seen a lot of accusations of bad faith in these articles recently, and I doubt many people are truly acting outright in bad faith, even if they might be too aggressive occasionally.] (]) 22:35, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	::::I think explaining 3RR, and discussing the block is good because hopefully it raises awareness of policy, and doesn't leave a bad taste of "I was unjustly blocked". That said, I don't think an ANI thread is needed in regards to any recent conduct, and this is coming from one of the few people actively engaged in talk page discussions with this user. If, on the off chance, the edit warring continues, RomanHistorian will be blocked again. Simple as that, but I really hope (and don't think) it will ever come to that. I don't see any admin action needed, and would suggest closing this thread.-]&nbsp;</sup>]] 22:46, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	:::::I appreciate your frankness. I actually agree with your point on 3RR. I am not angry with the 3RR so much as a bit confused about it. I now have more of an attitude of "be careful" and have realized how much more productive one can be when they avoid reverts, or anything that looks like a revert. My main concern going forward is stuff that doesn't look like edit warring to one person looking like it to another (see my discussion below with Nloop). I am trying to be vigorous while avoiding being too aggressive, and often the line is very difficult to see. I am afraid I might cross it in the eyes of some and am trying to avoid that, while at the same time continuing to make at least some edits to wikipedia.] (]) 23:09, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	::::As a general rule, if you have multiple reverts before you have a single comment on the Talk page, you have a non-collaborative attitude. As I said, many editors on these articles have that attitude (mostly with better skills at 3RR-skirting), so the entire environment is bad. I have not researched your editing on other articles. It is quite possible you deserve a block. I think you had 4 reverts in about 36 hours on ]. I see no cure for the overall environment. Arbitration has been rejected twice, mediation once, RFCs are wikilawyered to death, and the problem is too big and cultural to be handled by the usual dispute resolution channels. Edit-warring policies still need to be enforced, but nobody should be under the illusion that they will solve the systemic problems here. ] (]) 22:47, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	:::::Again, although I disagree on some points I truly appreciate your fairness. I do agree that this is a major problem throughout the biblical articles. Its probably a bigger issue on wikipedia in general, which we just don't see because we are limited to what we edit. I will say though about those edits on ], when I made those 4 edits within 36 hours I thought I was doing it the way wikipedia policy specifies. The reversion of my edits cited a specific reason, and I addressed the reason, like citations, when I made further edits. I realize now that my edits apparently did not deal with all of the objections, but at the time I assumed that I was doing things correctly, vigorous back and fourth editing to arrive at a consensus, rather than taking part in some kind of edit war. I mean not all these issues can (nor need to be) discussed at length on the talk page, especially if they are minor. For example, my edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Historicity_of_Jesus&action=history) on October 14 at 02:39 was reverted, restored (not by me) and reverted again. Sources/references were mentioned as a reason why, so I added them. Then I was told sources weren't the real problem, so I took it to the talk page at that point, realizing the edit comments weren't relayig things clearly. I guess I thought this was how you were suppose to do things on wikipedia, so I can see how that might cause issues if others didn't see it that way. Do you think it should have been handled another way?] (]) 22:58, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
	::::::Another way? Yes. On articles that are heavily edited such as these, it's best to discuss proposed changes first on the talk page and seek group consensus. ] (]) 23:02, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
			== 2409:40D4:2041:20BA:8000:0:0:0 ==
	== Topic ban for ] ==
			This IP, ] keeps changing ordinals in similar pages (Colombian presidents). Pleasse block this IP immediately otherwise this IP will continually change the ordinals again. (Note: Already reported on ]) ] (]) 08:38, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
	I've been trying to improve ] to a GA level article for the last few weeks. I am no longer able to assume good faith in ] who is being disruptive per my understanding of policies. I am asking experienced admins to evaluate the matter and enforce an article-space/talk-space topic ban on Jamesinderbyshire.
			:Note that this ISP, ], assigns ]es over an extremely large range and so this user is likely to IP hop.--] ] 08:45, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			== Naniwoofg ==
	] provided a ] by misquoting an author through an intricate setup of fake links and a snippet view from Google books. He typed out the following (fake) quote from page 504 of the book:
			{{User|Naniwoofg}} has been the subject of a complaint at ] for issues involving images and ]. Finally posting this here so some sort of action could be taken per the comments at the aforementioned section. Note that said complaint include refusal to respond to warnings and related stuff. ] (]) 12:02, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
	{{cquote|The Bengal famine "killed more Indians than did two world wars, the entire Independence struggle, <u>Partition and the worst famines of the 19th Century.</u>"}}
			==Okvishal and years of self promotion ==
	The quote, if true, would have pretty much put an end to the dispute with Jamesinderbyshire's POV prevailing. I had to spend significant amount to my Misplaced Pages time to decipher Jamesinderbyshire's intricate setup of book names, authors and bad links to look for the correct books and locate the quote which reads like this:
			{{Ping|Okvishal}} has been an editor for 14 years. They have 138 edits but only 11 of them are non-deleted ones and those non deleted ones are also for self promotion or promotion of their feature film. A look at their talkpage shows the sheer scale of self promotional editing they have done over the course of their wikicareer. Right after joining they created an autobiography which was speedy deleted, they recreated the article under a different title and it was as well. Over the course of 14 years, they have recreated their article and those of related topics several times all leading to waste of community time through AfDs as ,,, and most recently at . It is clear that they are not (and never were) here to build an encyclopaedia. Consider blocking them and ]ing ],],] etc. ] <small><small>]</small></small> 12:15, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			== 109.173.147.169 ==
	{{cquote|The Bengal famine "killed more Indians than did two world wars, the entire Independence struggle, <u>plus the communal holocaust which accompanied Partition.</u>"}}
	After pointing out this fallacy, Jamesinderbyshire apologized by claiming it was a mistake but then quickly went back to his pattern of indulging in trolling or original research on a different subtopic of the same article. These are classic symptoms of ] as the essay on fictitious references points out. The same essays states about fictitious references:
			{{atop|] exists, I don't think admins have much else to do here. {{nac}} ] <small> (]) </small> 13:07, 19 January 2025 (UTC) }}
	* "It is a most serious offense because it compromises the integrity of Misplaced Pages"
			This user, ], keeps persistently vandalising pages, even after they've been given a fourth and final warning. ] (]) 12:36, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
	* "Fictitious references are typically those used to support a hoax, original research, essays or opinion passed off as neutral facts"
			:This belongs at ] if it is unambiguous vandalism. {{nacmt}} ] <sup><small>]</small></sup> 12:40, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
	Of these, Jamesinderbyshire has indulged in two - original research and essays or opinion as has already been pointed out me and another user to Jamesinderbyshire.
			::User has already been reported there, but thanks for the reminder anyway. ] (]) 12:42, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
			== Persistent addition of unsourced content by 82.42.205.209 ==
	The ] and ] section of the talk page have the relevant details. ] (]) 21:49, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
			{{userlinks|82.42.205.209}} - Keeps adding unsourced content to articles, hasn't responded to warnings and continued after final warning. Examples of addition of unsourced content: {{diff|Fast & Furious 6|prev|1269494136|1}}, {{diff|Transformers (film)|prev|1269494579|2}}, {{diff|Teen Wolf: The Movie|prev|1270321882|3}}, {{diff|Comedy Central (Indian TV channel)|prev|1270322475|4}}, {{diff|Legend (TV channel)|prev|1270324650|5}}. ] (]) 14:00, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
	:I made a mistake in a quote and immediately on having it drawn to my attention corrected and apologised for it. I also expressed an opinion in a talk page about Indian government expenditure. Other editors have also critiqued Zuggernaut's approach to editing the article at ]. ] (]) 22:02, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
			== Azhar Morgan ==
	::Also see the very considered comments by a number of editors at ] in the British Empire section (this row built up originally from an ongoing dispute between Zuggernaut and multiple editors at ]) calling on him to restrain himself, explaining that he is misunderstanding POV and in particular one very considered statement there from ] saying "''while I can understand the frustration you might feel when faced with a team of Britons defending the BE page, I have to say your methods have not exactly lent themselves to sympathy from people like me''". ] (]) 22:15, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
			{{atop|Azhar Morgan has been blocked. ]&nbsp;] 15:38, 19 January 2025 (UTC)}}
			Azhar Morgan has been IP editors and issuing final vandalism warnings. Some of the edits reverted are good like or . In addition this user's first edits appear to be vandalism: , , , , , . Could an admin look at this? ] (]) 15:35, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			:They also a report on them here. ] (]) 15:37, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			{{abot}}
			== User:Cherkash mass-spreading of anti-Ukrainian content (related to ]], maybe more) ==
	::You typed out content that was blatantly inaccurate, put quotes around it and used it to support your position. I assumed good faith, you said sorry for the ] and then continued on with similar behavior. Your strategy is a classic example of someone who is trying to game the system to push your own POV. ] (]) 22:30, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
			*{{userlinks|Cherkash}}
	:::I'm not going to engage further in silly point-scoring. I apologised for the mistake and I did bot repeat it - the allegation you make about the second item is unrelated to the first. ] (]) 22:32, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
			The aforementioned user produces, edits and intefreres with multiple pages spreading anti-Ukrainian content, inapprpriate and hateful content towards the territorial integrity of Ukraine in favour of the aggressor (see ], ]). </br>
	Is there a real ''pattern'' of wrongdoing here? One misquote is not a pattern of POV-pushing, and the only other diffs you provide seem, on the face of it, to be fairly harmless. I'm certainly not seeing enough evidence to suggest any sanctions of Jamesinderbyshire here. I've not really looked into the behaviour of Zuggernaut himself as yet. ~ <font color="#228b22">]</font> <sup>]</sup> 23:08, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
			The most notable is the mass-spread of the maps that contain Crimean peninsula painted as a part of Russian Federation, which I have noticed a long time ago on the ] pages and even had raised the issue here , with no visible actions following.
	:Yes, this is a pattern. On a previous occasion he demonstrated similar behavior when he cited a page number in a book and provided a link which did show some of the pages before and after the page in question but not the actual page being used to strengthen his case. When I looked up the actual page elsewhere, I found that the data was irrelevant to the topic being discussed. Nonetheless, doesn't ] talk about a "zero-tolerance policy" for such behavior. ] (]) 00:15, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
			Two most notable maps are as follows: https://commons.wikimedia.org/File:Formula_1_all_over_the_world-2025.svg, https://commons.wikimedia.org/File:Map_of_Formula_One_World_Championship_races_by_host_country.svg
	==Urgent edit filter request==
	{{resolved}}
	Please see ]. This user has been adding <nowiki>{{sockpuppet|jcarleo}}</nowiki> over and over again to ]'s user and user talk pages for the past hour. Can someone create a filter? ''']''' ''']''' ] 23:57, 15 October 2010 (UTC)
			They are extensively used on many pages, thus warping both the neutrality and the internetionally appropriate viewpoints.
	==Off2riorob==
	I'm rather perplexed at my current interaction with {{User|Off2riorob}}. On ], I recently changed a disambiguation link at the top of the page, and was reverted by this editor. Another editor, Dmcq, reverted to my version, but then Off2riorob reverted again. At this point I asked Off2riorob on his talk page if, rather than reverting, he would participate in the discussion. He responded by removing my comment and posting on my talk page.
			Other examples can be seen from ], such as spreading maps that violate the Ukrainian integrity under new category and removing the old one: ,
	Following this Dmcq reverted a second time, and then Off2riorob reverted a third time. I've attempted to ask Off2riorob why he is responding like this, and he has again deleted my comment. I'm taking it here because I don't see how I can work on an article with someone who won't have a discussion and responds by making accusations that he won't explain. ] (]) 00:09, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
			The actions of the user go against the decisions of the UN ], ], ], ].
	:Ow, he won't explain himself to my satisfaction..I am getting close but I don't think I can attain to the user that had three separate sections in one day (no names mentioned). Is this a 3rr report or a civility report or a personal attack or a legal threat? I don't see an actual actionable issue? ] (]) 00:11, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
			I shall propose to intervene from the administration level to resolve the issue and remove the hateful content.
	::Ah, so Mackan79 is competing to be the first editor sanctioned under the Climate Change discretionary rules, is that it? ] (]) 00:19, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
			] (]) 16:12, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			:Do you have any evidence that this is hateful rather than, say, accidental or ignorant? ] (]) 16:50, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			::This is not accidental, it's purely deliberate. For instance, you can look through the ], e.g. about normalising ], and refer to the prior talks about other people struggling to correct the issue Crimea in ].
			::I see as well multiple tries to justify the depiction of Crimea as non-Ukrainian via ''de facto'' statuses by merging the topic with Taiwan, often ], which I cannot even comment on. ] (]) 17:38, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			== Hamzajanah posting vanity hoaxes and general NOTHERE behaviour ==
	:I've just removed the sections you posted below, which clutter the page and don't state where the comments were posted. If you want to summarize, feel free, but please don't repost my comments here as if I made them on this board since it is only confusing. ] (]) 00:22, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
			*{{userlinks|Hamzajanah}}
	:To the point, you responded to a request that you join the discussion by posting invective on my talk page and reverting the article a third time. Dmcq, someone I generally haven't agreed with, has now posted a comment about this on the talk page. I am simply trying to get past this rather bizarre position where you are reverting, and posting insults, but won't have an actual discussion. ] (]) 00:34, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
	::You have forfeited the discussion with this worthless report. This is not the place to encourage discussion. Also insults , what insults? ] (])
			I'm really struggling with this new user. They have posted ] and ] both autobiographies and both contained multiple hoaxes. They are continually using Misplaced Pages as a ] and violating ] too. They are constantly boasting about their wealth, see for example. They claim to be a close associate of ], ] and ]. They are also . I have not seen one constructive edit and their is one of the worst I've seen and also warns us of "persistent sockpuppetry". This is bordering on ] already. Their ability to navigate Misplaced Pages suggests that they might have had previous accounts and might even be an LTA vandal but I can't think who it is. ]<sup>]</sup> 17:12, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
	===User:Mackan===
	More immature reporting to the ANI board, what is users problem , this is not a police state and discussion is the way to go. Is is supposed to be super polite, no, ..imo such reporting is valueless and users that make valueless reports should themselves be restricted. ] (]) 00:19, 16 October 2010 (UTC)		:That filter is notoriously poor for detecting socks. I believe it was created with one sockmaster in mind, and yet based on how it functions (I'm not good at filters), comes up with many (mostly?) false positives.--] (]) 17:20, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			::It doesn't really matter whether they have been socking or not. They are posting hoax content to Misplaced Pages, so should be blocked anyway. ] (]) 17:25, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
			:::In one of their screeds they’ve embedded some serious BLP violations. For the sum of everything, with no hope of useful contributions, blocked. —&nbsp;]&nbsp;] 17:34, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

---

Latest revision as of 17:41, 19 January 2025

Noticeboard for reporting incidents to administrators

v t e Noticeboards
Misplaced Pages's centralized discussion, request, and help venues. For a listing of ongoing discussions and current requests, see the dashboard. For a related set of forums which do not function as noticeboards see formal review processes.
General	Administrators Main Incidents Bots Bureaucrats Centralized discussion Closure requests Education Interface admins Main Page errors Open proxies VRT Oversight User permissions
Articles, content	Biographies of living persons Copyrights Questions on media Problems Dispute resolution External links Fringe theories Neutral point of view Original research Pending changes Reliable sources Resource requests Scalable vector graphics Spam Blacklist Whitelist Style Titleblacklist Translation
Page handling	History merges Mergers Splits Moves Protection Importation XfD Articles Redirects Categories Templates Files Miscellany Undeletion
User conduct	Conflict of interest Contributor copyright Edit warring and 3RR Sanctions Personal restrictions General sanctions Contentious topics Sockpuppets Usernames (Requests for comment) Vandalism
Other	Arbitration Committee noticeboard Requests Enforcement Edit filters Requested False positives Questions Help desk Teahouse Reference desk New articles Requests for comment Village pump Policy Technical Proposals Idea lab WMF Miscellaneous WikiProject proposals Discussions for discussion
Category:Misplaced Pages noticeboards

Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents Shortcuts

• WP:ANI
• WP:AN/I

This page is for urgent incidents or chronic, intractable behavioral problems.

• Before posting:
  • Consider other means of dispute resolution first
  • Read these tips for dealing with incivility
  • If the issue concerns a specific user, try discussing it with them on their talk page
  • If the issue concerns use of admin tools or other advanced permissions, request an administrative action review
  • Just want an admin? Contact a recently active admin directly.
• Be brief and include diffs demonstrating the problem
• Do not report breaches of personal information on this highly visible page – instead go to Requests for oversight.

When starting a discussion about an editor, you must leave a notice on their talk page; pinging is not enough.
You may use {{subst:ANI-notice}} ~~~~ to do so.

---

Closed discussions are usually not archived for at least 24 hours. Routine matters might be archived more quickly; complex or controversial matters should remain longer. Sections inactive for 72 hours are archived automatically by Lowercase sigmabot III. Editors unable to edit here are sent to the /Non-autoconfirmed posts subpage. (archives, search)

Start a new discussion Centralized discussion

• Refining the administrator elections process
• Blocks for promotional activity outside of mainspace

Noticeboard archives

Administrators' (archives, search)
349	350	351	352	353	354	355	356	357	358
359	360	361	362	363	364	365	366	367	368
Incidents (archives, search)
1157	1158	1159	1160	1161	1162	1163	1164	1165	1166
1167	1168	1169	1170	1171	1172	1173	1174	1175	1176
Edit-warring/3RR (archives, search)
472	473	474	475	476	477	478	479	480	481
482	483	484	485	486	487	488	489	490	491
Arbitration enforcement (archives)
328	329	330	331	332	333	334	335	336	337
338	339	340	341	342	343	344	345	346	347
Other links
Talk Sockpuppet investigations Backlog

Incivility and ABF in contentious topics

It looks like everything has been dealt with here. voorts (talk/contributions) 18:32, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Hob Gadling's uncivil comments and assuming bad faith on multiple contentious talk pages is not necessarily egregious but I suppose it is problematic and chronic, consistent and ongoing. I would appreciate some assistance. Here are some diffs from the past few days:

Disparaging another editor's intellect and reasoning skills.

https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Stephanie_Seneff&diff=prev&oldid=1266584883

WP:NPA

https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Harald_Walach&diff=prev&oldid=1266713324

Profanity

https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:James_Tour&diff=prev&oldid=1267046966

Assuming "malicious" intent; profanity; deprecating the editor

https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:COVID-19_lab_leak_theory&diff=prev&oldid=1267154877

Unicivil

https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Mick_West&diff=prev&oldid=1267158027

https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Origin_of_SARS-CoV-2&diff=prev&oldid=1267160441

Contact on user page attempted

https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:Hob_Gadling&diff=prev&oldid=1267160795

Assuming bad faith, accusing editor of being incompetent

https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Origin_of_SARS-CoV-2&diff=prev&oldid=1267163557Lardlegwarmers (talk) 03:19, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Think this calls for a fierce trout slapping and some direct words. I cannot really endorse a forced wikibreak according to WP:COOLDOWN, as this is just an angry user and frankly, I don't see direct personal attacks, I just see unfriendly behavior and prick-ish attitude, no outward disruption of the project either. Also, I have to ask for further review of, to start with, this editor's December contributions, as some diffs from the past few days are not indicative of chronic issue. The holiday times, like Christmas, Hanukkah, and New Years' can be some of the most stressful times for people during the year. Not saying I like seeing this, but I can understand the feeling. BarntToust 04:15, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Would I be the person to provide you with that further review of, to start with, this editor's December contributions? I did think that it would be more than a WP:FISHSLAP, since that's for one-off instances of seemingly silly behavior and this is more like a perpetual bad habit that needs something a bit stronger, like a stern warning. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 06:14, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

@Lardlegwarmers: I don't see anything violating policy with regard to direct personal attacks or even profanity directed at a person, but rather directed to the topic in the discussion. Hob should know better, and as per BarntToust, Hob really deserves a trout to be a bit more civil and how to WP:AVOIDEDITWAR. But I would caution you about WP:BOOMERANG and the new attention to your activity and involvement this has drawn to your own edits. For example your inappropriate recently deleted user page, removing sections from other people's talk page, and it seems like you're having a problem handling a WP:DISPUTE and assuming bath faith of editors. You are not going to win a battle to get your material included by trying to report other editors in bad faith.

Furthermore it does appear that you might be WP:FORUMSHOPPING because your attempts at WP:POVPUSH for your specific perspectives regarding Covid are meeting resistance at every turn. passively accusing editor behavior, directly accusing a specific editor bad behavior, claiming WP is political, RSN Report #1, RSN Report #2 to push for an article edit request, bringing the Covid discussion over to the teahouse, and now this ANI report. Without evaluating everything you've discussed in the past few weeks, at quick glance it appears that you're having problems understanding Misplaced Pages's policy and guidelines and are having contentious discussions with far more experienced editors. That isn't to say that we assume that they're correct and you're wrong, but when you're receiving pushback from multiple very experienced editors, I would encourage you to slow down a bit and try to fully understand the policy, and isntead of arguing to "win", you need to read about how you need to work towards WP:CONSENSUS. Because at the end of the day, without consensus, you will continue to have a lot of problems. TiggerJay (talk) 05:37, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

I appreciate the feedback and will take it into consideration and try to refine my approach to disputes. My intention has been to address unique issues as they arise, versus shopping around the same old dispute. For example, the current ANI topic pertains specifically to some rude behavior that has been going on for quite some time and doesn't show any sign of stopping despite my attempts to resolve it directly. The editor in question actually seems pretty reasonable in their interpretation of the sources but I speculate that there might be a perception in the rank-and-file that it's OK to be pretty uncivil to editors who advocate for moving the NPOV because they're naturally afraid of putting their own head on the chopping block, so to speak. I suppose raising these issues in relevant venues is in line with guidelines. Both of those RSN discussions were related to distinct sourcing problems and resulted in useful resolutions that aligned with my concerns. The Teahouse posts about the Covid content disputes and a question regarding the politics of Misplaced Pages was in response to an administrator’s suggestion (]) that I drop by there for a discussion, and I found the feedback from experienced users there helpful. My talk page comments about user behavior were meant to discuss issues first on talk pages, per the ANI guidelines. (All content and conduct issues should be discussed first at the talk page of the relevant article or user before requesting dispute resolution. ]) Thank you for your time and input.

Lardlegwarmers (talk) 07:07, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

I hope the editors who read this will notice the ABF here: trying to report other editors in bad faith. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 21:10, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Minor discussion on use of ChatGPT in Lardle's user page

@Lardlegwarmers: Jay brought something to my attention with a recent version of your user page. It looks like there is large language model (ChatGPT) text about "COVID-19 Natural Immunity" copied and pasted on there. What in the cheeseballs?? What made you think hmm, let's prompt ShatGPT to churn out 700 words about this random out-of-pocket topic, and I'm gonna post this on my Misplaced Pages user page for no reason! I'm confused. This specific revision also assumes bad faith about IP editors, and here's the rich part: just as you copy-pasted text from ChatGPT about COVID to your user page, you go on to write a section that addresses use of AI. Quoting from an AI chat bot without attribution is plaigiarism. I'm just confused with what you are doing here. So I'd like to ask you, since you are here at ANI now, what in the sam hill is going on here? If there is a reasonable explanation for this goofiness, I suggest you produce one, not from a prompt entered into ChatGPT, in your own words. BarntToust 16:59, 4 January 2025 (UTC) It is an old version of their user page, and it is not plagiarism to quote from a chat bot even without attribution, so we must assume that you are attempt to detract from the OP's complaint. The issue at hand is an experienced editor who joins talk page discussions without understanding the topic at hand (which they admit in one instance ), and are frequently use derogatory language and tone towards other editors. This behavior does not seem like a new thing for them and they clearly know how to skirt the edge of what would be considered a personal attack by an admin, so this merits a formal warning. IntrepidContributor (talk) 18:16, 4 January 2025 (UTC) look, the other guy is acting pissy, and I agree with the formal warning. But @IntrepidContributor, you should familiarise yourself with WP:BOOMERANG. The long short of it if you didn't click on one of the several instances of it being linked above: If an editor attempts to bring someone else to ANI while having dirty laundry themselves, this editor will likely be found out for their dirty laundry. And that's what I'm doing right now. BarntToust 18:34, 4 January 2025 (UTC) I know what WP:BOOMERANG is and I telling you that you appears to be here only to detract from the complaint, and the way you are doing it by dragging up something from old user page and making claims of plagirism is highly suspect. If an admin scrolls through Hob's comments on the lab leak topic page, they will see that they are almost all designed to provoke and demean other editors. This highly inappropriate for such a difficult topic area where editors struggle to agree on NPOV. IntrepidContributor (talk) 18:45, 4 January 2025 (UTC) So far, there's agreement that this is unbecoming behaviour from Hob, and they need a WP:TROUT slap to wake them the heck up from the bad behaviour. I do not understand why the jester cannot be questioned for his goofy behaviour when he shows himself to be goofy as he tries to alert everyone of the fool's, uh, foolishness. No offence intended from this medieval analogy. BarntToust 18:53, 4 January 2025 (UTC) BarntToust You're being bitey and you need to stop. WP:BOOMERANG is for when the reporter is the one causing the problems, not for airing "dirty laundry" as you yourself describe it. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 18:59, 4 January 2025 (UTC) well, I tend to get concerned when someone with LLM text pasted on their userpage comes up from the water. If that's considered bite-y to reiterate my concerns in intentional lighthearted analogy in order to seem less hard-headed, then I guess we're done here. @Thebiguglyalien, I invite you to weigh in on whether you think a formal warning or a trout slap is what needs to happen to Hob. BarntToust 19:04, 4 January 2025 (UTC) @BarntToust: I would appreciate if you did not derail noticeboard threads by rudely browbeating participants about seemingly irrelevant(?) issues. jp×g🗯️ 01:12, 15 January 2025 (UTC) I think I'm gone from this board because of other work I'm focusing on regarding NIИ's Peel it Back Tour and other stuff. Ad Hominems are what I did, and pointing out questionable behaviour (IE unexplained, self-contradictory AI slop text) from the user page of the currently 1 week-blocked Lardle who just violated his topic ban actually seemed pretty helpful, as literally everyone else in this trainwreck of a thread brought up unrelated stuff (Lardle's unrelated COVID conspiracy mongering) instead of discussing Hob. I do admit I went on tangents through this already derailed mega thread, but I'm among others not much worse for the derailing. I mean, how many ANI reports start with a fellow reporting "This guy is using the word 'bullshit' on talk pages" and end with that fellow getting a broadly construed TBAN that they violate mere moments after implementation? Yeah, I'm again, I'm gone to work on other stuff. BarntToust 01:31, 15 January 2025 (UTC) That content from ChatGPT was meant to go in my sandbox as experiment or for assisting with research into a future article. The LLM can generate wikitext with links to articles that already exist. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 18:35, 4 January 2025 (UTC) When you get a bunch of text from a large language model, you get unsourced content. If you ask ChatGPT for info, you run the serious risk of getting false content. So, either way you take it: If you get text, then try to re-write it cohesively, and find sources for it, you are writing an article backwards and that is to be discouraged; if you are asking AI to gain an understanding on an unfamiliar topic, you are likely to run into false information. If you use AI for either of these purposes, @Lardlegwarmers, I suggest you be very judicious about how you go about "leveraging AI". There are more ways that can go wrong than I need to count on the ANI. BarntToust 18:43, 4 January 2025 (UTC) Why are you on this administrator page making these spurious claims of plagiarism and giving this unsolicited advices? IntrepidContributor (talk) 18:59, 4 January 2025 (UTC) @IntrepidContributor, I'm pointing out questionable content on someone else page. please look at this diff on Lardle's user page for context, in which they copied ChatGPT text without attribution, then said that using ChatGPT without attribution is plagiarism. That contradictory stuff is what I was questioning. please click on the diff for context. BarntToust 19:11, 4 January 2025 (UTC) I use it more like a (really good) search engine or a thesaurus. It can give a lot of suggestions for a human writer, but ultimately you use your own mind and RS to formulate the facts and how to present them. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 19:05, 4 January 2025 (UTC) that's a good moderation mindset to use. I'm satisfied with your answer, it makes enough sense. Carry on! BarntToust 19:13, 4 January 2025 (UTC) Thanks! *curtsy* Lardlegwarmers (talk) 00:52, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

• The lack of civility in this contentious topic is significantly hindering editing efforts, especially since most issues concern neutrality and tone, which requires a careful and nuanced approach. IntrepidContributor (talk) 17:58, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

I can't see anything in the original report that does anything other than show that Hob Gadling calls a thicko a thicko. What is wrong with that? Phil Bridger (talk) 18:33, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

@Phil Bridger As someone who was the recipient of one of those attacks in the example, I'm curious, what is a "thicko" and why do you believe that I am one? Pyrrho the Skipper (talk) 19:02, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

...according to the Cambridge English Dictionary, it means "a stupid person" - which would make it a personal attack. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 19:51, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Yes, in British slang, "thick" = "stupid". GiantSnowman 19:54, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

There is not enough context for the examples of impatience from Hob Gadling which the OP offers. For example, Lardlegwarmers, do you really expect a warm welcome for your 'attempted contact on user page' here? Or for your puritanical reproaches about HG's use of "profanity" (which normally turns out to mean using the word bullshit, which is by no means banned from Misplaced Pages, nor is its expressiveness easy to replace with something more flattering). Considering what they're replying to, this supposed "disparag of another editor's intellect and reasoning skills" seems pretty temperate. And so on. Bishonen | tålk 20:19, 4 January 2025 (UTC).

I'm not suggesting we should wash anybody's mouth out with soap. The editor's consistent uncivil behavior is more than just the occasional salty diction here and there. I mean, look at this user page discussion where an editor is asking for a discussion on why Hob Gadling reverted his edit. It seems as if the person was trying to do it on the talk page and was ignored. Hob Gadling gruffly tells the other editor to get lost. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 01:00, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

My experience is that this kind of aggression is standard operating procedure for the defendant. I'd basically given up on them seeing any consequences for it - it's been going on for a long time, so I assumed this is one of the cases where editors with enough "social capital" get an exemption from CIVIL. I doubt a trout will have lasting effect. - Palpable (talk) 02:33, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

My experience with and attitude toward Hob is 100% the same as described here by Palpable. It goes back a while ... ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 22:06, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

Hob Gadling failing to yield to WP:BLPRESTORE, apparently missing both the discussion and RSN link from the talk page. Asserting an unreliable source as reliable in order to describe the subject as having a ‘victim complex’. SmolBrane (talk) 23:56, 4 January 2025 (UTC)

Note that Hob edited the talk page after re-adding this content; he should have self reverted if he missed this discussion prior. SmolBrane (talk) 00:01, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

• Propose serving of trout to both. Hob likely may have acted a hair too strongly to a source of exasperation; but not enough for any warning. Lardlegwarmers provides a large helping of such and I would suggest a boom if not for BITE. Albeit, Lardlegwarmers’ knowledge of WP is beyond the average for an editor with 5x the posts. I would suggest a non-logged warning to Lardlegwarmers on the concept of collaboration for their own good. Otherwise, we are likely to see them back here given their attitude at both this filing and at Talk:COVID-19 lab leak theory. (Disclaimer, I have been involved.) O3000, Ret. (talk) 01:47, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

  For context, O3000, Ret. is on the other "side" from me in a content dispute along with Hob Gadling (])Lardlegwarmers (talk) 15:57, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

  I am on the "side" of Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines and am not arguing any content issues here. But I did state I was involved. O3000, Ret. (talk) 16:02, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

  Best not to imply that your opposition is not on the side of the rules. Given this comment and your involvement, I think you should recuse. SmolBrane (talk) 00:01, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

  Recuse Appears that you have over 500 edits to Covid related article pages including their TPs. That's approaching 50% of your lifetime edits and 250 times the percentage of my edits in that area. Consider that in your short time here, you were blocked for egregious and repeated bad-faith assumptions. Probably should avoid that in future as this appears to be the same. Meanwhile, I stand by my post here and involved editors add value; so I will not suggest that you recuse. O3000, Ret. (talk) 01:21, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

  To be clear, I was suggesting recusing from proposals, not from discussion. Regards. SmolBrane (talk) 02:10, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

  If you click through the diffs, you’ll notice that many other editors have received the rude comments, so this is more than a 1-on-1 scuffle with me and Hob Gadling. I stopped compiling examples after finding 9 examples of visible hostility out of their most recent dozen diffs, but like I mentioned to BarntToust above, I can go back further if you need me to, to illustrate the chronic pattern. And the handful of other editors who have spoken up here who have been aggrieved speak for themselves. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 03:31, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

• As a note, Hob Gadling removed the ANI notice without comment and has not responded here. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 22:39, 5 January 2025 (UTC)

  Hob Gadling is allowed to do whatever they want to their user talk page including removing notifications of discussions. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 00:47, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

  Never said they weren't. Just noting that they clearly received the notice and chose not to respond here, which is a response in and of itself. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 04:18, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

Extended discussion

Wish Hob Gadling would not act like a profane teenager on talk page discussions and that they'd treat people without the smartass-y-ness and contempt. If they are so committed to being pissy towards other users while being shut-off in their own la-la-land, maybe they need a block until they're willing to face the music. BarntToust 01:56, 6 January 2025 (UTC) This comment is actually more of a personal attack then any of the diffs provided originally. Smartass, like a teenager, pissy, lalaland? That's some ageism, maybe commenting on mental health, and some silly insults. I don't think you should see any sanctions for this, but hopefully you compare your comments to the diffs. 166.205.97.61 (talk) 22:29, 7 January 2025 (UTC) IP, how'd you get here? A person who calls things bullshit and generally isn't in a good mood around others, being condescending: saying that they are pissy and being a smartass is WP:SPADE. Teenagers are known for angst and pissy-ness and for having lip. Not insinuating they are a teenager, just that their behavior resembles that of. As you will recall, someone, somewhere in this derailed, miles-long trainwreck of an ANI report-turned morality seminar-turned COVID-19 fringe theory + pseudoscience debate, said that there is no policy against profanity. BarntToust 23:07, 7 January 2025 (UTC) If I tell User:ExampleA that they did an "amazing fuckin' job!" with a FA, that is different than calling User:ExampleB a "fuckin' wanker" because they botched a page move. Context is everything, and I get how we are all connecting through the two-dimensional medium of simple text and thus misunderstandings tend to occur, but tones like these aren't that hard to discern. BarntToust 23:12, 7 January 2025 (UTC) When Michael De Santa shouts "fucking A!" after a job well done, that is not the same when he tells Trevor Philips that he is a "fucking psycho murderer". BarntToust 23:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC) Right, and there are no egregious uncivil diffs either. So, how is Hob acting like a pissy teenager, but you aren't? Catch my drift? This is a nothing burger report, and the reporter should get a boomerang. 166.205.97.61 (talk) 00:56, 8 January 2025 (UTC) Hob's profanity is not amiable. It sours the collaboration with other editors. most importantly, it is undue. Mine is not undue, and is a statement of truth. BarntToust 01:12, 8 January 2025 (UTC) Provide a diff of something you believe is sanctionable. Your pile of personal attacks is making it unclear what you are trying to say. It's ok when you cuss, but it's bad if someone else does it? What? 166.205.97.61 (talk) 01:21, 8 January 2025 (UTC) Profanity has nothing to do with it. The attitude is the thing that's wrong. The word "shit" can be said in many different ways. Some good, some bad. Have you even looked through these diffs of Hob's comments that have popped up through this ANI report? I also invite you to create an account. BarntToust 02:21, 8 January 2025 (UTC) So, to recap, Houston: It's not what it is said that causes problems, it's how it is said that matters, and in what context. I call a pissy editor pissy because it's great to call a spade a spade. I can use profanity to describe someone's behaviour, and if I weigh words, I can even use it when addressing someone's contributions; i.e. "This is a really fuckin' well done article, User:Example". Hob calling someone's opinions bullshit is not the right thing to do. BarntToust 02:29, 8 January 2025 (UTC) I think you may refer to this as calling a spade a spade. When someone says we should ignore science because it has a COI with Covid-19, their opinion is bullshit. This is what you are defending. 166.205.97.61 (talk) 03:15, 8 January 2025 (UTC) Eh, you can say "That's WP:FRNG and WP:PSCI and does not constitute due weight as the subject is discussed in reliable sources". Calling a spade a spade is easy, while addressing content and user contributions in dispute should require more, IDK, poise. I can say "fucking awesome work!" to an editor about their GA and no harm can be meant by that in any feasible situation, but when addressing questionable content, it should be done with nuance, eh? You can call someone's work shit whose work isn't shit, but you pretty much can't call someone's work "fucking amazing" whose work isn't amazing, as calling work "fucking amazing" provides pretty much no point of contention, unless you were just bullshitting them for no reason or trying to be nice about a novice's contributions that in terms of quality, reflect their inexperience. This entire ANI report has derailed into pretty much every unrelated topic save debate over what the definition of "is" is. BarntToust 03:58, 8 January 2025 (UTC) I'm not worried about contexts when "strong language" is ok, and you can stop giving needless examples. I don't believe anything that violates our guidelines on civility took place at all in the diffs originally provided. Hob was reasonable in tone, and sometimes people are exasperated by nonsense. Being annoyed but mostly polite isn't actually against the rules. You will need better diffs to change my mind. 166.205.97.61 (talk) 06:32, 8 January 2025 (UTC) The COI pertains only to a few authors in particular with a personal stake in the outcome of the investigation. For example, the article uses several sources co-authored by Dr. Zhengliang Shi who herself and the WIV itself have an obvious conflict of interest This is a secondary peer-reviewed article, and several editors who call LL fringe stated it is RS. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 08:31, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

It should be noted that Lardlegwarmers, after only truly starting editing two months ago, has been actively pushing WP:FRINGE misinformation, particularly on Covid related pages. They have actively been making claims that the scientific community is trying to cover things up, such as here, and has been using poor quality sources to try and claim that major published scientific papers on the topic are false, such as here. This entire thread just sounds like an attempt to silence another editor who has been actively dealing with fringe POV-pushers across numerous articles, such as those linked by Lardlegwarmers above. Silverseren 02:14, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

Both parties can be wrong and in need of a final warning. And it seems that's the case here. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 02:38, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

• I haven't seen any evidence presented that would put Hob Gadling in the wrong; after reviewing the diffs I'm scratching my head and can only conclude that some of the people above have been commenting without reading them. Most of them are not even mildly uncivil. Going over them, the majority are clearly criticizing someone's argument (or the specific reasoning they presented), which is not a personal attack; and others aren't violations at all. Misplaced Pages editors are not forbidden from using profanity; the fact that Lardlegwarmers' unconvincing throw-every-unconnected-thing-at-the-wall-and-see-what-sticks approach here extended to the fact that their target used the word (gasp!) bullshit to describe an argument that did, in fact, turn out to be bullshit shows how weak it is. What's more alarming is that that was what led Lardlewarmers to try and their target on their talk page, a hamhanded effort whose sheer inappropriateness they remain sufficiently tone-deaf to that they made the mistake of bragging about it here as part of their "report". This is a straightforward WP:BOOMERANG situation. --Aquillion (talk) 02:50, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

  There's only so much we can handle when someone has had five years to fulfill their promise and "turn over a new leaf" in situations like this one. Misplaced Pages would be better off if people were more willing to tell people to stop before it's too late and stop treating aggressive or uncivil behavior as a "lesser" crime. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 03:07, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

  The reason I cited numerous diffs was to substantiate, as I said in my post, that this is a chronic and ongoing habit of rude and uncivil behavior. I posted the diff of Hob Gadling's user page not to "brag" (and I don't understand how you inferred that), but rather to show that I followed ANI procedure to address conduct disputes first on the user page and that my attempt was dismissed without Hob Gadling addressing it except to blank the comment with the explantion that I wasn't welcome on his page.Lardlegwarmers (talk) 20:47, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

I am not trying to silence anyone. See above, I recommend a stern warning about consistent uncivil comments and that’s it. If Hob Gadling has something substantive to say, they can say it without demeaning the editors as if this is a combat sport instead of a discussion about articles of text. I encourage y'all to check out the discussions linked to by Silverseren. I have been careful to use sources, present my suggestions in good faith, and stay neutral in personal interactions. I am genuinely trying to find consensus. I'll mention that Silverseren is also involved in the content dispute, providing sources that myself and several other editors believe do not verify an extraordinary claim in the article. (Talk:COVID-19_lab_leak_theory#c-Silver_seren-20241231185800-Slatersteven-20241230182700) It's getting to the point where we should do a content moderation over that, since I am sure that the sources do not verify the claim but Silverseren apparently is sure that they do. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 03:49, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

I think it was probably a poor choice for you to reference Silverseren's discussion as proof of one-sided UNCIVIL behavior. There is precious little in your first response to Hob in this specific LL section that makes your point that that you're trying to find consensus, but rather demonstrates a heavy handed I'm right because I can cite more WP policies in bolded type. As the Alien above said, you Both parties can be wrong and in need of a final warning. now WP:DROPTHESTICK. TiggerJay (talk) 18:57, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

No, TiggerJay, that is false. Except for one link to Misplaced Pages:Civility, the links you mentioned are all main-space articles to describe the fallacies contained in Hob Gadling's arguments, including the use of ad hominem, as part of my intention to focus on and steer the conversation towards a discussion of the content, not attacking the person (Talk:COVID-19 lab leak theory#c-Lardlegwarmers-20250103194100-Hob Gadling-20250102085800). This is the second comment you have posted in this discussion that mischaracterizes my actions and falsely accuses me of bad faith.Lardlegwarmers (talk) 19:52, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

For the record I do agree with you that Hob's position was absolutely a fallacy; I might assume they might have even been bating you. I also agree that you also have references to main space article, beyond the single reference to policy. I even agree that there is an probably conflict of interest with those virologists you named, but unless their editing Misplaced Pages that is irrelevant unless you're performing WP:OR or WP:SYNTH, rather we depend on WP:RS and WP:UNDUE to help navigate such things. You claimed that you intented to steer the conversation towards a discussion of the content, not attacking the person. However, that is not what I read in that reply. Out of the gate you're calling Hob uncivil, their arguments are false, and then lobbing further accusations. You get the discussion wrapped up arguing over who said what, and what they meant by it, and why your positions are valid and theirs are not. As for bad faith, I'll invite to other editors to comment below if they agree that I'm the one presuming bad faith towards you. Cheers! TiggerJay (talk) 00:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Your point about RS is well-taken. However, per WP:RS, concerns about the reliability of a particular source ought to be discussed on the article talk page (Talk:Origin_of_SARS-CoV-2#c-Lardlegwarmers-20250105151700-Credibility_of_major_scientific_journals_on_Covid) first when it is only germane to the particular topic and not the publication as a whole.Lardlegwarmers (talk) 00:37, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

I think I understand what you're referring to about RS. Yes, there are times when a source is otherwise considered reliable (or even un-reliable) but consensus can be found with regards to a specific narrow aspect of it that might warrant it's inclusion or exclusions, or some variation on how it is presented or the weight afforded to it in the article. And that comes through talk page consensus as you mentioned and does not necessarily need to be unanimous. TiggerJay (talk) 01:46, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Being entirely blunt, if we have two visions of Misplaced Pages: one in which people are occasionally rude or incivil to people who tout pseudoscience concerning major diseases and one in which pseudoscience concerning major diseases makes its way into article space then I'll gladly sign up for the rude / incivil Misplaced Pages over the pseudoscience one. This is to say that being rude is most certainly a lesser offense. Simonm223 (talk) 20:23, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

Please check out the article and discussion. The lab leak theory is not pseudoscience, but rather a scientific hypothesis which important scientists have suggested is worthy of serious investigation (]). Although the evidence strongly favors a zoonotic origin, the investigation is inconclusive. In any case, I would favor a Misplaced Pages where civil discussion leads to a balanced representation of what is published in reliable sources. If your position is supported by the sources, there is no need to resort to name calling. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 20:38, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

It's pseudoscience and a pseudoscientific hypotheses burdened with quite a few racist and conspiracist adherents who want to propose China intentionally spread a plague just to weaken the United States. Preventing the promulgation of this specific pseudoscientific hypothesis is certainly more important to the integrity of this encyclopedia than the very old grievance that the regulars at the Fringe Theory noticeboard are insufficiently diplomatic. Simonm223 (talk) 20:47, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

What you are describing is a different idea: the COVID-19 bioweapon conspiracy theory. The lab leak hypothesis would be that the pandemic started due to researchers being accidentally infected with the virus. the World Health Organization is recommending in its strongest terms yet that a deeper probe is required into whether a lab accident may be to blame. ] The fact that the virus is not human-made does not necessarily exclude the possibility that the virus escaped the lab by accident (Field 2020; Guterl et al. 2020). This remains an open question; without independent and transparent investigations, it may never be either proven or disproven. The leakage of dangerous pathogens had already occurred more than once in other labs.(]) Lardlegwarmers (talk) 21:09, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

That's not what the article is about. It is about a "conspiracy theory". But this is entirely irrelevant to this noticeboard. This noticeboard is about behavior, not content. It can be extraordinarily frustrating to those who have been building this encyclopedia for ages (20 years in the case of Hob Gadling) to deal with large numbers of brandy new editors trying to push new conspiracy theories, often politically motivated. If you wish respect, try supplying some yourself. Believe me, it will aide you in your work here. I stand by my proposal of trouting you both and an unlogged warning to you that is for your own good if you wish to continue contributing. O3000, Ret. (talk) 01:33, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Beyond what @Objective3000 said, for all parties, it doesn't matter who is "right" (when it comes to the article or talk pages), that is not sufficient to be uncivil WP:BRINE. TiggerJay (talk) 01:50, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Indeed. O3000, Ret. (talk) 01:59, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

If Hob Gadling wants to "deal with" new editors who threaten Misplaced Pages, it should not be through aggression and insulting them openly, but through quality sources and discussion. Editors who sympathize with "fringe" ideas might be more cooperative if they didn't have to defend themselves against offensive comments in response to their suggestions. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 07:15, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

If this "old grievance" about the FTN exemption to CIVIL really has been thoroughly hashed out, could someone link the discussion from WP:FTNCIVIL or something? Being up front about it would save time here at ANI, plus it's always heartbreaking to watch as earnest new editors learn about this the hard way. - Palpable (talk) 01:51, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Palpable, were you canvassed to this conversation? You seem to be a very inactive editor. I've made more IP edits in a month than you have edits in two decades. I'm curious how such a new editor found this. 166.205.97.61 (talk) 01:58, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

I am in the diffs.

I would still like a pointer to the discussion of why FTN regulars get an exemption from CIVIL, I honestly think that should be better understood. - Palpable (talk) 02:30, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

They don't have an exemption, and I challenge you to provide a diff proving they do. 166.205.97.61 (talk) 03:30, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

I think he was referring to the comment by Simonm223 above: Preventing the promulgation of this specific pseudoscientific hypothesis is certainly more important to the integrity of this encyclopedia than the very old grievance that the regulars at the Fringe Theory noticeboard are insufficiently diplomatic.] Lardlegwarmers (talk) 07:03, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

That diff certainly doesn't prove anyone is exempt from policy. I think it's interesting Palpable said he was following diffs instead of saying he was involved in the content dispute underlying this complaint. 166.205.97.61 (talk) 21:26, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

No, they're one of the pro-fringe editors in the linked discussion. 208.87.236.180 (talk) 21:14, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

This is a deeply silly comment. jp×g🗯️ 01:16, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Extended discussion

How ironic that you would call out canvass, when you haven't contributed to this discussion previously, nor have you contributed to any prior notice board. See WP:POTKETTLE, also please see WP:SOCK if you logged out just to make problematic edits here.... TiggerJay (talk) 05:13, 7 January 2025 (UTC) I've contributed to this notice board hundreds of times, what are you talking about? IPs are only assigned for a few hours to weeks at a time usually. 166.205.97.61 (talk) 05:23, 7 January 2025 (UTC) @166.205.97.61: Okay let me say it another way... never in this history of this subject has an IP editor contributed. since January 1, ALL of the IP's who have contributed to ANI aside from your are blocked or had their contribution reverted. in the last 50,000 edits to this notice board, not a single anon has commented more than 34 times and that user was in Romania, whereas your IP shows US/Mobile, and they are currently blocked. Followed up an IPv6 with 30 edits, last participated in ANI back in May. Followed by a handful from the UK and other countries. The first one who is US based that was mobile has less than 12 edits, not hundreds. when you choose to edit anonymously (which is your privilege) you accept the reality that people will question your constructiveness because of a lack of established history. But beyond all of that, aren't you simply deflecting from the question brought up? Perhaps @Palpable has been lurking anonymously. As they have logged at least 31 edits to ANI alone . TiggerJay (talk) 05:53, 7 January 2025 (UTC) There's a lot of strawmen there to knock down if I cared to derail this conversation, but I'm curious what question you think I'm deflecting? Your assumptions of bad faith are expected, but disappointing. 166.205.97.61 (talk) 06:03, 7 January 2025 (UTC) What I claim you are deflecting KETTLE: Somehow you feel like you can call out someone who hasn’t contributed previously as canvassed, which is a serious allegation, yet that is exactly what your user account history appears reflect. When challenged, you claimed to have edited hundreds of time, which was rebutted with facts, you resorted to allegations. Interestingly they very closely mirror only one other person who liberally throws around terms like strawman and bad faith. And really only one person at ANI has ever held this view so strongly they would plainly say bad faith was “expected” from me . If your not that person, then my query is how did you get involved in this conversation, and when exactly do you proffer that you last edited on here as an IP constructively? However, if you are indeed that person, let me warn you, such activity is considered sock puppetry. (Of course editing while accidentally logged out is a human mistake. But persisting and pretending otherwise, is not.) TiggerJay (talk) 07:12, 7 January 2025 (UTC) Don't know what this thread is about, but point 2 and 3 seem wrong - none of my IPs have been blocked, and I am an anon that has, in the last 5 thousand edits to this board I made 38 of them (all edits by IPs starting with 2804:F14), let alone in the last 50 thousand edits. Maybe I'm misunderstanding your claims. – 2804:F1...42:FDB7 (::/32) (talk) 06:08, 7 January 2025 (UTC) I think my detail for you was accidentally edited out. You would be an IPv6 from a different country, so unless this IP user is claiming they have rotating IPs hourly because they’re using an international VPN connecting via various countries, I find their claim that they just stumbled upon this conversation dubious at best. TiggerJay (talk) 06:33, 7 January 2025 (UTC) Also in case you were not aware, while mobile IP addresses can and do change, they still remain with that mobile carrier. So while your ip address will change, who all of those addresses are registered to will not. What I mean is that will your current IP goes back to a US based cell network, you’re not going to get a new IP address that is registered in Japan or even one in the US that is through a completely different network (a few technical exceptions exist, but they’re nevertheless evident). Same with home internet as well. And of course, most work addresses are persistent. All that to say, a claim of “my ip address changes” does not mean that a persona cannot reasonably determine if you’ve contributed to ANI from the a network. TiggerJay (talk) 07:17, 7 January 2025 (UTC) When did I say I stumbled upon this thread? Provide the diff. You are putting words in my mouth and casting aspersions. I said my IP changes as a response to you saying I was a new editor. You are creating an elaborate narrative and getting strangely defensive. 166.205.97.61 (talk) 07:29, 7 January 2025 (UTC) I will gladly provide the answe after you answer the two questions I have previously asked to you. First was about KETTLE, and the second asked you to substantiate your claim of I've contributed to this notice board hundreds of times by providing your last contrustive ip edit to this notice board. TiggerJay (talk) 07:40, 7 January 2025 (UTC) Please read WP:SATISFY. I'm not going to link all of my comments across IPs here for you. If you really believe I was canvassed, you need some diffs, or maybe you should strike your aspersions. 166.205.97.61 (talk) 07:44, 7 January 2025 (UTC) All I can do is laugh at your replies. More KETTLE behavior. You claim don’t have to proof anything per SATISFY, yet in the same breath you demand such of others. More ad hominem, deflection. Zero actual replies. TiggerJay (talk) 08:05, 7 January 2025 (UTC) What are you talking about? I asked one question, got one answer and it was done. It was you who started a long thread full of bad faith assumptions and no diffs. Provide diffs, or kindly stop bludgeoning. 166.205.97.61 (talk) 08:37, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

1. Nie JB. "In the Shadow of Biological Warfare: Conspiracy Theories on the Origins of COVID-19 and Enhancing Global Governance of Biosafety as a Matter of Urgency." Journal of Bioethical Inquiry. 2020 Dec;17 https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7445685/
2. https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_327#c-GPinkerton-2021-01-18T14:40:00.000Z-ScrupulousScribe-2021-01-18T14:27:00.000Z
3. https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:COVID-19_lab_leak_theory#c-Shibbolethink-20250104081900-IntrepidContributor-20250103151400

Send to AE?

Given how long this has gone on for, may I make a suggestion? Send this to WP:AE since ANI seems incapable of resolving this, and it falls solidly into the realm of pseudoscience and fringe theories. 208.87.236.180 (talk) 21:17, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

Another claim that civility complaints are treated differently in "the realm of pseudoscience and fringe theories".

That matches my experience and I'm grateful to the people willing to say it out loud, but surely it would save a lot of drama and forum shopping if someone just wrote it down? - Palpable (talk) 22:01, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

The IP made no such claim? - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 23:14, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

I thought that was implicit in the request to move the civility complaint to a forum about fringe theories, but you're the expert. - Palpable (talk) 23:30, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

FYI WP:AE is arbitration enforcement, not the Fringe Theories noticeboard. Simonm223 (talk) 16:12, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

That's what I had thought, but the not logged in guy seems to be saying that a civility complaint should be moved to AE because it's a better venue for "the realm of pseudoscience and fringe theories".

It's really striking to me that the main argument here is not over whether Hob is civil, it's whether he should have to be. - Palpable (talk) 20:49, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

As others have noted, being brusque with pseudoscience-pushers is an insignificant offense when compared to agenda-driven editors who are only here to advocate for a fringe topic. Esp. when they have only been editing for a handful of months. Zaathras (talk) 23:21, 7 January 2025 (UTC)

While I do agree that from an objective and absolute POV (e.g., of an external user evaluating Misplaced Pages) it is better to have an uncivil but pseudoscience-free Misplaced Pages than a civil but pseudoscientific Misplaced Pages, from a subjective and relative POV (e.g., of editors making internal decisions together) it is impossible to systematically abandon a relatively less important principle on the basis of a relatively more important principle without completely annihilating the less important principle. That's why wp:Being right is not enough is policy.

Moreover, as others have also noted, because WP:CIVIL is a principle that at some point does get acted upon, we would all be better off if no one, on any side of any given debate, would minimize it. User:Barkeep49/Friends don't let friends get sanctioned. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 10:45, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

Too much presumption of intent here with regard to 'pseudoscience-pushers'. It is easy for us to diminish our opponents in this way. Civility and NPOV are equal pillars. SmolBrane (talk) 15:41, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

I second to motion to bring this to WP:AE. BarntToust 04:03, 8 January 2025 (UTC) -- Open thread below. BarntToust 15:39, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Topic ban for Lardlegwarmers

TOPIC BAN IMPOSED By the consensus of the Misplaced Pages community, Lardlegwarmers is topic-banned from the topic of COVID-19, broadly construed. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 02:27, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Lardlegwarmers (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

A cursory look through this account's contributions has me convinced that they ought not to be contributing to COVID-19 Lab Leak Theory pages, widely construed. More generally, it seems they are using Misplaced Pages as a soapbox to promote a lot of what I would deem "anti-establishment" claims which necessarily run right up against the WP:MAINSTREAM remit of our encyclopedia. In fact, they are close to being a single-purpose account in this regard. Topic ban from American Politics might help reorient their problematic proclivities.

jps (talk) 21:38, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

• Oppose - Seems unnecessary and retaliatory. I say that even considering Hob Gadling a friend of mine. PackMecEng (talk) 19:29, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
• Support The user is basically a WP:SPA who looking at their editing history, their basically sole purpose to edit Misplaced Pages is to aggressively POVPUSH about lableak on talkpages, a topic they can't even edit the main page of because they don't have ECP. They're not the only offender, but they are major one. Their contributions are only raising the heat and frankly do not improve the topic area. Hemiauchenia (talk) 19:46, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

  This is not a SPA. I’ve been editing on Misplaced Pages for a month or two, focusing some of my attention on the lab leak hypothesis because the article itself would benefit from a more balanced presentation of the topic, especially the broader social and political implications of the theory, based on reliable sources. For example, the article's suggestion that the lab leak hypothesis foments racism is simply not verified. Politicians and extremists have taken advantage of the hypothesis for their own reasons, but it's otherwise a viable scientific hypothesis. (https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-57782955) I've been on the talk page helping to sift through a lot of the original research and the sources (a lot of them) that don't actually say what people are alleging they say. Also, I have been trying to find some kind of consensus for filling in the conspicuous gaps where there ought to be information about notable non-scientific events like coverage of the notable U.S. Congress committee that focused on the lab leak idea and made major headlines in the media--and it's completely omitted from the article. I've worked to clean up the articles where they use journalistic sources to verify biomedical information. And I'm dealing with helping to sort out this chronic name-calling where there should be civil dialogue. In a separate topic, I've been working on fixing an obvious BLP violation where the article talk page consensus might be showing a bit of resistance to the site's policy itself. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 10:35, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

• Support pro-fringe single purpose accounts are bad for the project. Simonm223 (talk) 19:52, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

• Oppose - What exactly is the reason to do this here? If jps wishes to file a vague ANI complaint against LLW (a new editor), there is a legitimate process for that which would look a lot less like witness intimidation. - Palpable (talk) 20:00, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

Your own POV editing is openly in question as well, particularly considering this discussion on your talk page with LLW. Statements like this "If you are interested in what the FBI knows but can't say, the next six months are expected to bring the release of a great deal more information. Stock up on popcorn I guess. If you want to improve the lab leak article, I don't know what to tell you. As you've noticed there are some deeply rotten things going on and the admins seem afraid to step in" very heavily indicates your own POV inclinations regarding scientific topics. Silverseren 20:14, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

Note to closer: Palpable is another lableak POVPUSHING SPA. They only made about 70 edits between their account creation in 2006 and 2022, when their editing shifted to be basically solely arguing about lableak on talkpages for over 2 years at this point. Hemiauchenia (talk) 20:17, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

I think you'd find it's a little more complicated than that, but it is not relevant to this discussion. Also, witness intimidation. - Palpable (talk) 20:41, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

"Witness intimidation" 😂 so are we now a court of law? His honor, Jimbo Wales is our Chief Justice? The duck test tells us you are an SPA that has a POV to push. BarntToust 21:44, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

WP:BOOMERANG is not witness intimidation, nor is this a court. — The Hand That Feeds You: 17:16, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

I'm happy to discuss my background and motivations over email with an admin who has a record of neutrality regarding FTN. - Palpable (talk) 22:06, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

This is at ANI, so it should be discussed at ANI. "I'll only discuss it in secret" is not how things are played here. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 05:01, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

Noted, thanks. - Palpable (talk) 05:43, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

• Support They have openly stated, as I linked above, their purposes of pushing information that the scientific community is "trying to cover up". Their POV pushing is blatant and reinforced by them being an SPA in this topic area. A topic ban would be a potential stopgap to hopefully have them actually become a proper constructive editor, rather than just outright banning them for their clear WP:NOTHERE activities. So, if anything, a topic ban is much more merciful than the alternative. Silverseren 20:11, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

  Silverseren is heavily involved in the underlying dispute. I have never said that there is "information that the scientific community is 'trying to cover up', just that there was never a thorough investigation and the debate is ongoing or inconclusive (https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-57782955) (https://www.wissenschaftstehtauf.ch/Inside_the_Virus-Hunting_Nonprofit_at_the_Center_of_the_Lab-Leak_Controversy_Vanity_Fair.pdf), that we ought to remove or attribute the sources we use whose authors have a direct relationship with the facility that the theory implicates (https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7445685/ "Shi herself and the WIV itself have an obvious conflict of interest") and that we won't be including in the article any of the less prestigious, primary sources (e.g., https://www.jpands.org/vol29no1/orient.pdf) nor the non-peer reviewed sources (https://docs.house.gov/meetings/VC/VC00/20230711/116185/HHRG-118-VC00-20230711-SD005.pdf - a U.S. defense laboratory that sequenced the virus and https://www.scienceopen.com/document/read?vid=23853f40-72f5-443a-8f87-89af7fce1a92 - a Bayesian analysis) in support of a lab leak scenario. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 10:16, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

• Strong Support tban from COVID articles. The editor has boomeranged themselves, it seems. SPA consumate. BarntToust 15:38, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
• I support in the first place a topic ban from Covid-19 broadly construed, but will also support a tban from COVID-19 Lab Leak Theory in case that narrower ban gets more traction here. Bishonen | tålk 10:29, 12 January 2025 (UTC).

@jps, Misplaced Pages being "mainstream" in this context just means that we use the most prestigious source material available to verify our claims. It doesn't tell us to suppress verifiable information just because it would "challenge the status quo" in society. By the way, I am not saying that my account exists "to challenge the status quo". I'm just correcting what might be a misrepresentation on your part as to what that document prescribes for us. I have always used high-quality sources in any of my edits to the main-space articles and used the talk pages to express my concerns about unverified claims. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 11:18, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

• Oppose I fail to see how this addresses Hob Gadling's chronic and intractable behavioral issues. SmolBrane (talk) 17:33, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
• Support – weak support for TBAN from COVID-19 overall, strong support for COVID-19 Origins, broadly construed (to include Gain of Function research, Fauci, WIV, etc) - This editor has repeatedly cast ASPERSIONS , has stated several times over that they intend to edit in a POV way to 'correct the biases that are in favor of the democratic party' , has shown a very poor understanding of policy (e.g. trying to advocate for a POVFORK , saying a discussion shouldn't be closed because no one could truly understand how complicated it is ) and a poor ability to assess the content of sources where they have a clear bias, repeatedly hitting others over the head with that failure to understand (e.g. WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT/WP:BLUDGEON ). I think they could probably benefit from editing a less contentious area of Misplaced Pages. (and yes I have participated in some of these discussions involving LLW) — Shibbolethink 21:21, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

  Shibbolethink is heavily involved in the dispute and misinterprets as bludgeoning my consistent opposition to their prolific use of faulty citations. The examples of citations they provided here are a perfect case study in what I had assumed was a good faith misunderstanding but am now convinced must be intentional mis-attribution. None of the links they provided substantiate anything they’re saying. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 22:17, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

• Support – COVID-19 broadly construed. I originally suggested trouts. But Lardlegwarmer’s responses in this section have convinced me that this user has problems with NPOV, DUE, and RS that continue even on AN/I. Perhaps six months editing elsewhere will be of value. And yes, I have been involved. O3000, Ret. (talk) 21:47, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

  Consensus on a ban proposal is not supposed to include editors that are involved in the underlying dispute. Why are these accounts casting votes?Lardlegwarmers (talk) 22:20, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

  Says who? Everyone can comment here. MrOllie (talk) 22:28, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

  They can comment but the authority to ban comes from a “consensus of editors who are not involved in the underlying dispute” so I’m assuming that means they don’t get a vote(?) Wp:cban Lardlegwarmers (talk) 02:38, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  Actually, I think six of the !votes are from editors who have posted to a Covid article, including two of the three opposes. I don't know about the other pages you listed as I've never heard of most of them. I am involved in one of the seven pages you listed in your filing. But I don't see how I'm involved in the underlying dispute you have with Hob. The closer can take this all into account. O3000, Ret. (talk) 12:50, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  Lardlegwarmers may be right. Palpable's Oppose !vote, in particular, reflects involvement in the Covid lab leak dispute and should be disregarded. Newimpartial (talk) 22:40, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

  The criteria of having simply posted to a COVID article does not serve as a threshold for being in a dispute with lard leg warmers. If a vote is to be disregarded for its caster's fulfillment of being involved in a dispute with lard's POV-pushing, then a talk page discussion, diffs should be linked for certain proof. BarntToust 15:35, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  Echoing @BarntToust's statement. I understand how it can be seen as problematic (also why I'm not voting), but that's not the standard. Furthermore, if it was, that would equally disqualify @Objective3000 and @Silver seren. (It shouldn't, just to be clear, but just making sure that's documented if we're going down this road.) Just10A (talk) 21:56, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

• Support Covid-19 T-ban. Their behaviour here smacks of "Them vs. everybody". Lavalizard101 (talk) 22:33, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

  I understand your sentiment, but what am I expected to do when all these editors are directly invoking my name and mischaracterizing my behavior and using sanction-gaming to push me out of a contentious discussion? Lardlegwarmers (talk) 02:41, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

• Support. Surprised the CIVILPOV-pushing edit requests flooding my COVID watchlist this past month didn't result in a tban earlier. JoelleJay (talk) 03:57, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  Well it would have spoiled all the fun, since a CIVILPOV guy is apparently fair game to use as target practice for ad hominems in the talk page Lardlegwarmers (talk) 10:43, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

• Support given the behavior in this area of editing. And before you reply, Lardle, I suggest you read WP:BLUDGEON. You don't need to comment on every !vote here.

— The Hand That Feeds You: 17:18, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Proposals re Hob Gadling and civility

There is no consensus for a block or any other sanction at this time. Everyone is reminded that WP:CIVIL is a core policy of Misplaced Pages. voorts (talk/contributions) 18:30, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Hob Gadling (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

There are concerns about WP:CIVIL regarding this editor's behaviour. Should a trout be in order? A block? Or an editing restriction when addressing other users? The community will decide.

BarntToust 15:44, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Support 1 month block – Hob needs an ultimatum, and the behaviour, even though they're right much of the time, is unacceptable per WP:BRINE. BarntToust 15:51, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

This feels WP:PUNITIVE. jps (talk) 18:03, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

extended discussion

Sure it would be. As John Wick once said: "Consequences." BarntToust 18:19, 13 January 2025 (UTC) WP:BLOCKNOTPUNITIVE. Tarlby 18:46, 13 January 2025 (UTC) When Keanu Reeves shot Bill Skarsgard in John Wick: Chapter 4, was that punishment? Or was that the consequence of Bill Skarsgard acting in a contentious manner and engaging in general buffoonery, conducting himself way out of place and S(crew)A(round)+F(ind)O(ut)? You conflate "punishment" with there being consequences for tomfoolery. BarntToust 18:55, 13 January 2025 (UTC) We're discussing this on Misplaced Pages, not John Wick: Chapter 4, so I'm not sure how that has any relevance. Also, that sounds exactly like a punishment to me. Tarlby 18:59, 13 January 2025 (UTC) I'm disappointed you can't understand analogy. 😔 BarntToust 19:09, 13 January 2025 (UTC) I suppose that, say, per example, a WP:GENREWARRIOR who edits their respective topics is "punished" when the consequences (block) start to kick in for their general bothersomeness? Look, we can have a whole schpeel about what the definition of "is" is, or we can subvert expectations and be really straightforward about a subtle subject. BarntToust 19:17, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

• Oppose block I don't think this is a sanctionable level of incivility. I'd be ok with sending them a trout. Simonm223 (talk) 18:08, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
• Oppose block Hob is a long term contributor most often engaged in the thankless task of keeping fringe nuttery from overtaking a range of obscure articles. I don't see a history of problematic incivility that would warrant a block. - LuckyLouie (talk) 18:22, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
• Support block as per BarntToust. Over the years I've seen the editor be rude and borderline bully, if not outright. It doesn't reflect well on Wiki.Halbared (talk) 18:40, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

• A 1 month block is not likely to change long-term behavior, and would only amount to punishment. That's why we don't do temporary blocks in cases like this. Rather, something is needed that will force Hob to adjust their behavior if they want to continue to edit. An indef block would do it, but seems over the top. One alternative would be an wp:editing restriction. What about:

Hob Gadling is prohibited from commenting on other editors' intellectual capabilities, including but not limited to other editors' reasoning skills, their ability to evaluate evidence, and their capacity to identify nonsense. This restriction may be appealed after 12 months on WP:AN.

Of course Hob would be free to point out that a source is not RS, that something is not supported by a source, that this or that position is WP:FRINGE, or anything else related to the editorial process, but they would be prohibited from commenting on other editors' ability to come to such conclusions for themselves.

some of the diffs above to which this would apply

I think this would solve a lot of the civility problems we see in the diffs. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 19:13, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Should we apply the same strict civility standards to all of your edits? Simonm223 (talk) 19:28, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

extended discussion

ad hominem. BarntToust 19:31, 13 January 2025 (UTC) No. Simonm223 (talk) 19:32, 13 January 2025 (UTC) "I am your father." BarntToust 19:35, 13 January 2025 (UTC) General complaints with the direction of the project and bemoaning that we ain't a meritocracy don't exactly scream "ur contribs and opinions are BS" like they do w/ Hob. BarntToust 19:38, 13 January 2025 (UTC) I just think it's a little rich for someone whose semi-retirement comment bemoans "incompetent editors" at some length to be the person to propose a specific instruction that another editor be prohibited from commenting on other editors' intellectual capabilities. Glass houses, stones, all that. Simonm223 (talk) 19:45, 13 January 2025 (UTC) Yeah. I'm glad they didn't direct this at anyone specific, though. I've seen people complain that the Wikimedia Foundation is misappropriating funds to be a charity instead of a web hosting organisation, but long my five years of editing here have been since I've seen anyone with the audacity to take it directly to User talk:Jimbo Wales or the accounts of the board of trustees. (I mean, for the most of the years as an IP it's been semi-protected but hey ain't seen anything about it in the Signpost). BarntToust 19:53, 13 January 2025 (UTC) I mean, as long as nobody is being directly addressed in any scenario of any complaint, whether its Foundation business or Meritocracy grievances or words about the intellectual capacities of editors with opposing viewpoints, and its kept broad and generalised about the overall direction of the project, it's like trying to hold recourse against an editor for having a "I think Democrats are slandering Donald Trump on Misplaced Pages" userbox vs. the editor actually going out in the wild to PA a Democrat over their position in a discussion on Talk:Donald Trump. BarntToust 19:58, 13 January 2025 (UTC) Unfortunately for this case, there's diffs galore of Hob going out of their way to call others' opinions and mental capacities bullshit and dull, and thus we are here. BarntToust 20:00, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Oh I deal with the same problems Hob does, believe me. Many around here do. WP:CIR is a thing, and yes, I personally believe it should be enforced much more vigorously. But no, I generally don't comment on other editors' intellectual capabilities in discussions. Most editors do not. If you want to discuss this further, please do so at my user talk. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 20:04, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

And those words, editors, are the summary of the conclusion drawn at the above "extended discussion" CT. BarntToust 20:09, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

• Oppose block Obviously punitive. We don't do that. Black Kite (talk) 19:20, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
• Strongly oppose block per my comment above. Bishonen | tålk 19:25, 13 January 2025 (UTC).
• Support editing restriction per Apaugasma's suggestion above. BarntToust 19:29, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
• Oppose as I've seen worse stuff going on than "bullshit". BarntToust 15:36, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
• Oppose any sanctions on Hob Gadling - I'm not seeing any clear sanctionable misbehavior here. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 20:11, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
• Oppose Punitive. JoJo Anthrax (talk) 21:53, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
• Oppose Just not seeing it as sanctionable. As an aside, the four (count them four) collapses in this filing are an example of why I prefer AE. O3000, Ret. (talk) 22:12, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
• Strong oppose per Pppery, O3000 etc. Tired of efforts to sanction good editors based on concepts of civility which are overly formalistic and don't duly assign weight to context (in my opinion, of course). ---Sluzzelin talk 23:13, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
• Oppose- I also see no obvious justification for a block. Doug Weller talk 10:18, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
• Support formal warning or 1 week block as per discussion above. It now also looks that there has been some 'coordinated editing', with all editors aligned to one POV on Covid lab leak page coming out to place ban on OP for reporting this uncivil behaviour. This was bad ban by @The Bushranger: who failed to recognise malign influence of small but well coordinated group of POV editors, who damage the project. IntrepidContributor (talk) 20:01, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

  Or, "unconfirmed conspiracies are WP:FRINGE and there's nothing more to it than that", y'know. Have you even read the Misplaced Pages is listening to professional organisations, we have to go against the grain screed Lard leg warmers added to their page? I mean, seriously? WP:AGF says that this is appearance of impropriety, but, y'know, fringe is fringe, and if being a "small but well coordinated group of POV editors" is what you get for adhering to veracity, then Lord help us. BarntToust 20:18, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

  malign influence of small but well coordinated group of POV editors And you're complaining about another editor's uncivil behavior? Okay... JoJo Anthrax (talk) 22:46, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

  Yes, I am referring to them as group, and I am claiming here, on administrator talk page, which is for these complaints, that they are coordinated, most likely off-wiki. The vote to ban is not truly representative of community. IntrepidContributor (talk) 07:02, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

• Oppose Block - send trouts instead. sometimes getting exasperated in a project is different than actual bad-faith edits. if a long-term pattern of incivility, more punitive measure coudl be warranted. diffs brought up don't seem that bad, though they could have been more civil. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 20:15, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
• could support apaugasma's suggestion. seems useful. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 20:17, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

  "Hob Gadling is prohibited from commenting on other editors' intellectual capabilities, including but not limited to other editors' reasoning skills, their ability to evaluate evidence, and their capacity to identify nonsense" is far too vague for an editing restriction. The problem is "including but not limited to"; if the restriction ended after the word "capabilities" you might have something you could work with (though I would still oppose it). Black Kite (talk) 22:54, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

  Isn't everyone prohibited from commenting on other editors' intellectual capabilities? jp×g🗯️ 01:21, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

  Not necessarily. If I am editing, say, a scientific article, and am forever having to revert an editor who is making errors because they don't understand the subject, it is not a violation of civility to point out that they need to go away and learn about it before trying to edit again. The rather woolly restriction above would stop someone from doing even that. Black Kite (talk) 13:43, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

  Black Kite is right on point. Problem is Hob can't do that without highly personal comments of people not being clearheaded, lacking reasoning skills, being prone to believe in crackpotty views and defending crazy ideas, etc. Also, I'm fairly confident that if Hob were restricted from pointing out incompetence, someone else would do so in a civil way. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 15:35, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

  This is why the editing restriction is appealable, this editing restriction is not necessary on regular editors, but appears necessary for them. Kenneth Kho (talk) 09:30, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

• Oppose Clearly not sanctionable, and hardly even uncivil, especially when viewed in the context of the discussions. At most maybe awarding a barn-trout (is there such a thing?) that celebrates that he didn't actually loose his cool and become uncivil, while at the same time, being rather offputting and feeding the POV-troll. TiggerJay (talk) 07:19, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
• Strong oppose per Bish. The day we start punishing good contributors for not having a constantly saintly response to awful WP:CIR POV-pushers is the day this project goes to hell. ser! 12:07, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

  We do all the time, our civility policies do not care if you are right in a discussion or good contributors. You are way off the mark in your general assessment. PackMecEng (talk) 14:58, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

  Indeed, it's even part of the civility policy (WP:CIVBRINE). - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 22:25, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

  I'm well familiar with civility guidelines and that being right doesn't exclude you from them. The point is that we should not mete out sanctions, let alone a month block in situations where there is an occasional display of imperfection when responding to POV pushing - especially considering per the comment above what is being replied to. If this was a genuine WP:CIVIL breach I'd support sanctions but I have not seen anything from Hob above that meets that. ser! 23:42, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

  Again you seem to be factoring in them being right with your justification because it was responding to POV pushing. Also no one expects perfection, just to do better. The bar is already so low, lets not encourage limbo. PackMecEng (talk) 01:52, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

• By all means WP:TROUT. We should all strive to be nicer and not personalize. Believe me, I understand that it is hard in these contexts. jps (talk) 13:31, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
• Oppose block: I loathe incivility from “vested” contributors being excused because the person on the receiving end “deserved it” and/or they’re “too valuable” to risk losing. But a block for getting curt with someone pushing fringe nonsense seems extraordinarily petty. This is not an endorsement of Hob Gadling‘s behavior, but I cannot imagine why anyone would find these remarks sanctionable. Dronebogus (talk) 06:09, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
• Oppose any sanction, I've probably used bullshit myself on a number of occasions and probably worse. I'm not seeing anything in the diffs that rises to the level of requiring sanctions. TarnishedPath 10:12, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Proposed Hob Gadling Editing Restriction by Apaugasma

There is no consensus to impose an editing restriction. voorts (talk/contributions) 18:31, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Hob Gadling (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Hob Gadling is prohibited from commenting on other editors' intellectual capabilities, including but not limited to other editors' reasoning skills, their ability to evaluate evidence, and their capacity to identify nonsense. This restriction may be appealed after 6 months at WP:AN.

Hob Gadling is permitted to comment that a source is not RS, that something is not supported by a source, that this or that position is WP:FRINGE, or anything else related to the editorial process, but prohibited from commenting on other editors' ability to come to such conclusions for themselves, enforceable with blocks. Kenneth Kho (talk) 09:11, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Support Great contribution is not a get-out-of-jail free card from WP:CIVIL & WP:BITE, complying with this editing restriction should not be difficult. Kenneth Kho (talk) 09:16, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

this is already being debated above. thought we generally shouldnt make multiple RFCs in a single section like this anyways? Bluethricecreamman (talk) 14:06, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose because this is inane, petty, bordering on Poe's law-esque. You can’t log an editing restriction that amounts to “Don’t be uncivil” because that should be the default. Dronebogus (talk) 06:13, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Suspected off-wiki coordination in COVID-19 lab leak topic

WP:BOOMERANG IntrepidContributor was warned to strike their accusation and take any evidence of the cabal to ArbCom. They have not done the former, and by all accounts (see HJMitchell's comment below) has not done the latter either. Instead, they appear to have tossed a grenade, followed up with another handful, and then come down with ANI flu when called to put up or shut up. There's very strong consensus below for a boomerang, and the consensus appears to be a topic ban from COVID-19, broadly construed, and a indefinite block until they agree to retract their accusations. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 04:04, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

It appears there is off-wiki coordination between POV editors going back many years in this topic. It is easy to spot this because complaints of non-neutral wording and unbalanced sourcing are frequent over years and from varied editors, while responses always the same and from same group of editors, often ending up in administrator talk boards like this resulting in quick ban by passing admin unaware of this dynamic. Calls for neutrality rarely ask for more than slightly more neutral wording (like not using wikivoice to describe "misplaced suspicion" in lab leak theory due to outbreak's proximity to lab ), and responses always cursory and blunted, and often even uncivil, which is why OP started this discussion. It common for these editors to immediately start threatening sanctions as soon someone comes near topic asking for more neutral coverage, making it impossible for progress without RFC on every tiny point. It is required for administrators to review coordinated editing in this topic. IntrepidContributor (talk) 07:23, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Let be caution you to not draw undue attention to yourself in these discussions, not because there is some grand conspiracy, coordination or cabal at work. Rather because it will cause people to being to look into some of your questionable editing behaviors. This is especially true as it seems like you're doubling-down on your position shared with a now TBAN'ed user, while casting grand aspirations of off-wiki coordination. However, if you have an actual accusation to present formally, please start a new section and be prepared to provide evidence (especially in the form of diffs) and not simply broad claims. Without such, there is no more a claim you might have to editors coordinating to work against your position, than might be said of editors who you align with that have been blocked or banned from FT topics. Please take a moment and look over WP:1AM and let me again caution you against boomerang, which LW learned the hard way. And lets you be tempted like Palpable above, this is not a threat, but please take it as intended, which is a friendly, AGF, suggestion to consider how you proceed from here, as your self-perspective of the situation does not reflect the actual reality of the situation. TiggerJay (talk) 08:20, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

It might actually be easy to spot this because we're all so very, very used to the same old song and dance from POV-pushers by this point, can spot them coming from a mile away, and know that "neutrality" is the last thing they actually want. WP:NOTNEUTRAL explains this very well - as does WP:TINC: There is no cabal conspiring against you unless you created it. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 09:29, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

It would be easy to spot if you read dispute where there is actual RfC where consensus (so far) clearly leans in the way of the editor you call POV pusher. Perhaps it was too much for me to ask that you read the diffs properly instead of taking the complaint on face value, but I expect more of you as an admin. IntrepidContributor (talk) 13:18, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

If you could provide diffs or links for your claim of off-wiki collusion that would help. Circumstantial evidence and asking editors to read between the lines isn't very useful. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 13:22, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Are you being facetious? Off-wiki coordination is by definition, off-wiki, and diffs are not possible. This is an administrator noticeboard diffs are not the only admissible form of evidence. IntrepidContributor (talk) 13:40, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

This is an administrator noticeboard, clearly, yes it is, that and that only. The evidence required to prove off-wiki collusion should be sent to WP:ARBCOM, because off-wiki business can't be brought here because, many reasons, though to start, posting reddit links and discord convos usually constitutes a vio of WP:OUTING. So get off of this noticeboard with problems it is unable to address, and see WP:ARBCOM. BarntToust 13:43, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Also, should such evidence exists, don't just open an AE case (again, WP:OUTING) but rather contact the arbitration committee privately. Simonm223 (talk) 13:58, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Coming to ANI about off-wiki collusion compares to a person calling a welder when their plumbing is clogged. BarntToust 14:53, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Welders too do plumbing,. EEng 22:48, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Aha. I refer to calling a welder when plumbing is clogged, not really installed or replaced. Usually when I call the local plumber to unclog my master bathroom toilet, a minimal amount of sparks are produced during their work. BarntToust 23:04, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

If you have evidence of off-wiki coordination this should be sent privately to the arbitration committee. If you don't have evidence you never should have opened this thread anyway. Either way the right thing to do is to withdraw this accusation from this venue. Simonm223 (talk) 13:44, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

You apparently only read "diffs" and not "or links". Unsubstantiated WP:ASPERSIONS shouldn't be anywhere, let alone ANI. If you have any proof take it to ARBCOM per Simonm223. If you don't have actual proof then you should retract your claim. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 14:05, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

So... are ya gonna cast ASPERSIONS or are you gonna send Arbitrarion some links to, idk, discord servers, IRC rooms, anything? Bans—they're what happens when an editor has, nearly a fetish, for trying to include information—at every possible turn—that goes against medical professionals' standpoints. Consensus in the scientific community establishes an idea and discounts another, Misplaced Pages covers the major, non-fringe outlooks on subjects. BarntToust 11:54, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

• Don't play devil's advocate for POV-pushers. You get nowhere with it. Unless you have damning proof that editors are banding together behind-the-curtains in illicit fashion, I encourage you to strike some text using <s> your unwarranted remarks here </s> BarntToust 13:33, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
• I suggest that IntrepidContributor should either provide evidence to Arbcom or immediately withdraw this accusation. Either way this topic of discussion should be closed as inappropriate to AN/I. Simonm223 (talk) 13:31, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
• Boomerang. IntrepidContributor has repeatedly made aspersions and assumptions of bad faith against many editors, both here and in the above section, none of which are supported by any evidence whatsoever. Making such baseless accusations the focus of an ANI subsection is a waste of editors' time, and when combined with their disruptive actions elsewhere (e.g., here) it indicates that a time-out is required. JoJo Anthrax (talk) 15:19, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

  I want to give them the chance to withdraw their accusation before calling for a boomerang. But if they refuse to do so or just disappear from the thread with the comments out there then, yeah, it's probably that time. Simonm223 (talk) 15:25, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

  We now have this, which demonstrates that IntrepidContributor has chosen to triple- (quadruple?) down on their evidence-free aspersions against multiple editors. JoJo Anthrax (talk) 15:43, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

  OK that was doubling down after they got clear instructions about how to handle it from more than one editor here. Simonm223 (talk) 15:47, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

  Instructions? What are you? IntrepidContributor (talk) 18:23, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

  Sorry for not being clear. By "time-out" I mean a topic ban from COVID-19, broadly construed. I can understand why the repeated, evidence-free aspersions and assumptions of bad faith, which have yet to be withdrawn, justify an indef. I just don't see how this approach is a benefit to the project. JoJo Anthrax (talk) 13:58, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

• Boomerang. If it was just this out-of-pocket subsection, I would agree with Simonm223 on giving some time of day, but since Intrepid's aspersions have been pervasive throughout this report according to JoJo Anthrax's motion, and also considering that they have recently carried out a deletion that ended up being improper to the point of disruption, a boomerang needs to happen so this improper conduct can be addressed. BarntToust 15:33, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
• There was WP:ARBSCE three years ago. If IntrepidContributor has any evidence they should go to Arbcom for WP:ARBSCE2. Otherwise, they should retract and strike their aspersions here ASAP. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 15:35, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
• Boomerang After being advised that they should privately contact the arbitration committee this editor instead just spammed the accusation into the comments of an AE filing about someone who shares their POV. This is inappropriate and disruptive. Simonm223 (talk) 15:48, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
• Boomerang IntrepidContributor was pointed to WP:BOOMERANG eleven days ago in this filing and knows what it means. This is yet more worthy of a BOOM than the OP. O3000, Ret. (talk) 15:53, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

I'd like to give IntrepidContributor one last chance to strike their comment, otherwise I don't see how this can end anyway but badly for them. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 16:06, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Following warnings and warnings about not casting aspersions and making baseless claims of collusion, IntrepidContributor ignored them and has taken the same aspersions and baseless accusations of collusion to AE anyways. Their chances have run out. BarntToust 16:15, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

What comment exactly you would like me to strike? That it "appears" there is off-wiki coordination, or that are POV editors, or it goes back many years? I would be happy to present evidence to arbcom members in private by email, but I think they know already, as do you. IntrepidContributor (talk) 18:22, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Based on this answer, yeah, I think the best course of action is to encourage IC to look for other parts of the encyclopedia where they can work collaboratively and to be firmly invited to cease editing anything related to COVID-19. Simonm223 (talk) 18:25, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

This comment, I would be happy to present evidence to arbcom members in private by email, but I think they know already, as do you, makes it sound like you are either bullshitting everyone about having evidence, or you are more worried about running everyone around the corner like dogs at a fire hydrant rather than actually helping out and exposing some serious fuckery that's going on in the topic. BarntToust 18:26, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

@IntrepidContributor As an uninvolved admin looking over this, I suggest that you either confirm your submission of evidence to ARBCOM or cease your allegations of off-wiki collusion. You've not provided any evidence/diffs for on-wiki collusion and have repeatedly made accusations. This is unacceptable. WP:PUTUPORSHUTUP EvergreenFir (talk) 18:32, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

How are my supposed to confirm submission of evidence and to who? IntrepidContributor (talk) 18:34, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Damn it, dude, you ARE running us around the bend like dogs at a fire hydrant! As has been instructed for you to do numerous times: Go to the page --> WP:ARBCOM <-- and look for the instructions to submit reports, and put your "evidence" there. Confirm that you did so here, and we will trust that you have: whether or not you actually did matters to nobody, because the only thing that will matter is that and if you did, a case that is none of our concern will open, and then if that case finds your "evidence" true, then those of us involved in the conspiracy will be put to arbitration either behind the scenes or at WP:AE. BarntToust 18:40, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Or as the uninvolved Admin notes, an arb will confirm that they have received something from you, thus this tangent will close. BarntToust 18:43, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Say you've emailed them and I'm sure ScottishFinnishRadish or HJ Mitchell or another arb would be able to confirm receipt of a substantive and meaningful email containing your evidence. If they can confirm it, I would close this discussion. If not, I would look at WP:BOOMERANG EvergreenFir (talk) 18:41, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Sure, I will email them in the morning (EET). I didn't plan on this extra work load today. But I have enough diffs to make the report by then. IntrepidContributor (talk) 18:47, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

You are putting this off as if you have nothing to report. First IntrepidContributor says "I have diffs", then present them. No, it's "I have off-wiki collusion", then go to ARBCOM. Cycling back-and-fuckin'-forth between this dog-fire hydrant nonsense, and finally, now we're back at "I have enough diffs". And you ask, "to who  ?", and after reiterating everything we have said numerously through this thread, you say I will email them in the morning. You had enough time today to open this thread, then throw a blunderbuss of accusations everywhere, and you had enough time to bring your bullshit to AE. Yet, you don't have enough time to list diffs and give explanations to the arb committee? I smell a load of horse shit.

I invite the next uninvolved admin to issue a block to IntrepidContributor for general disruptive editing.

Yours in Buddha, Jesus, and SpongeBob, BarntToust 19:43, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

@IntrepidContributor - by my watch it is now in the afternoon EET (17:55), can you confirm here if you have actually submitted the email earlier today as promised here? TiggerJay (talk) 15:56, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

@ScottishFinnishRadish @HJ Mitchell -- any chance you can confirm if @IntrepidContributor has contacted ARBCOM in the last 24 hours? TiggerJay (talk) 16:48, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Nothing in my inbox. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 17:14, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

I think at this point IC has failed to make good on their "I'll do it in the morning" commitment. And they still decline to withdraw their personal attacks and baseless accusations. Simonm223 (talk) 12:47, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

I would be happy to present evidence to arbcom members in private by email, but I think they know already, as do you. This is a direct accusation against an editor here and a nonsensical statement about the arbs. O3000, Ret. (talk) 18:53, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

as do you No I struck don't and I've had enough of being tarred with baseless struck. Whether that's here or at lableak talk page, somewhere I rarely comment on a topic I rarely edit. You appear to only be able to see editors you disagree with through a battleground mentality, and as part of some conspiratorial cabal.

Unless an Arb can confirm that evidence has been provided, and shows something I've obviously missed, I propose IntrepidContributor be blocked for WP:DISRUPTIVE behaviour. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 19:12, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Well, they said they think the arbs already know. So I guess they're in on the conspiracy. O3000, Ret. (talk) 20:03, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

@Objective3000, please Read that again in full context. What comment exactly you would like me to strike? That it "appears" there is off-wiki coordination, or that are POV editors, or it goes back many years? I would be happy to present evidence to arbcom members in private by email, but I think they know already, as do you. This was only a smartass, tongue-in-cheek remark about how "everybody here knows about fight club, but doesn't talk about it". Like, a smartass remark that "POV-pushing and cabals are an open secret knownst to the gentry" or something. No arb has been notified, the editor is being a smartass. BarntToust 20:10, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Oh, I read this two ways, I thought you misread their text 😅 you're probably just being funny. lol sorry. The editor still needs a block tho. BarntToust 20:18, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Yes. But at this point, not sure I can tell when they are being serious or trolling. O3000, Ret. (talk) 20:24, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

@Objective3000, @BarntToust - I would hope the next uninvolved admin would see that I gave conditions for IntrepidContributor. If those are not met, they will be blocked. There's no rush here and carrying on this discussion calling for blood isn't exactly productive.

If another admin find clear and convincing evidence warranting a block of Intrepid Contributor, then they should block them. Otherwise, I'd ask that the "offer" remain. EvergreenFir (talk) 20:28, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

I would block them now, @EvergreenFir, and I would wait until a member of ARBCOM confirms—not what IntrepidContributor submitted—but that what they've submitted is legitimate evidence of what they claim is happening. At that confirmation, and with the ARBCOM member's blessing to the blocking admin, then the editor would be unblocked. The editor is fucking with us even as we outline the processes to make ARBCOM reports, and their other contributions listed in this report such as improper, half-assed deletions they won't bother to complete properly are screaming NOTHERE. BarntToust 20:35, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

I agree with BT... (except the potentially uncivil, but probably warranted uncivil language)... Beyond this discussion, IC is otherwise being disruptive to the project including blanking pages with a lousy excuse.. Since they had the time to start this discussion that was apparently so urgent and a big deal, yet not the time to complete the necessary paperwork, coupled with all of the other factors, it seems like blocking to prevent further disruption is prudent. TiggerJay (talk) 20:54, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

thanks for concurring. As the community has above developed a consensus that an editor using profanity to describe actions and behavior is not prohibited, I'm completely safe in calling IC's behavior shitty (WP:SPADE), so long as I make no direct remarks about IC personally. I don't believe I've done that. BarntToust 21:16, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

As Jay said, besides the report, they have been being disruptive in other parts on Misplaced Pages, and considering the fact that they have been disruptive during the very processes of ANI itself, besides the unfounded claims of cabals they spew, there has been enough bullshit going on for a NOTHERE block. BarntToust 21:23, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Evergreen, forgive us our impatience. Some of us spend all too much time in CTOPs. It's wearing. O3000, Ret. (talk) 21:11, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

If they show arbs proof of their accusations then fine, otherwise the they need to stop. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 21:20, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

My suspicion is that what IC actually has is like 2 diffs of some veteran editor saying to some other veteran editor "hey you should email me!" or something similar. Which is entirely normal, part of the way wikipedia works, and not "off-wiki coordination". Or some similar conspiratorial nonsense. When you're a hammer (conspiracy-believing POV-pusher) everything looks like a nail (proof that all the mean people who disagree with you are actually part of a secret government agency that's coordinating against you and laughing about you behind your back). Nothing that happens on the lab leak page requires or even suggests there is off-wiki coordination. Where contentious articles exist on wiki, there is almost always a small group of veteran editors who tangentially edit around that topic and watch their watchlists like hawks to make sure POV CPUSHing SPAs don't ruin the beauty that is a truly NPOV contentious article. They don't need to coordinate, because they generally share in common a belief in the five pillars and edit accordingly.I am really very excited to see what IC comes up with. — Shibbolethink 22:20, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

I honestly think what it comes down to is selection bias. The sorts of people who frequent the Fringe Theory noticeboard and who don't get mad and leave quickly tend to be skeptical, critical and materialist. And critical materialist skeptics tend to look negatively on conspiracy theories, pseudo science and quackery. For a conspiracy minded person there's all these like-minded nay-sayers saying variations of "that's a conspiracy theory" and so they... do what conspiracy minded people do and assume it's a conspiracy. Really it's just a messageboard whose topic filters for a certain subjectivity. Simonm223 (talk) 01:26, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

• Boomerang I only speak for the quad-corner-tri-city and metro areas cabal, not the greater WP:MEDRS cabal, but I agree a boomerang is in order. Extra Jesus Hold The Satan!! (talk) 08:27, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
• Boomerang means topic ban, I presume. But y'all would be better served to make this kind of thing clear in your arguments. My worry when it comes to this matter is primarily with IntrepidContributor's claim of coordinated cabals suppressing the truth functioning rather as something like accusation in a mirror (and apologies for the possible Godwin's Law implications). In any case, and even if that's not what's going on, I have a hard time seeing the net positive in this topic coming from IntrepidContributor (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and generally think the problems on this topic stem from a lack of strong WP:CTOP enforcement which hopefully we are now coming to terms with. jps (talk) 13:37, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

• That would be my interpretation. A topic ban is definitely in order. Maybe for all conspiracy theories as well as anything COVID related. Simonm223 (talk) 13:43, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

TBan would be appropriate no matter what. But IMO these ongoing accusations should result in an indef block for NOTHERE. O3000, Ret. (talk) 16:18, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

• Boomerang since they clearly did not heed advice to drop the stick and want to persist in their claims, in addition to all of the aforementioned issues. It has now been 20 hours since they posted so far, and I would be very curious to know if they actually did submit the email evidence that they claimed they would email them in the morning (EET). - It is now 5:54pm (1754) in EET, so if they haven't yet, then it should result in indef block for legal threats and excessive disruption. If they did fulfill their promise, then a TBAN is still most certainly in order. TiggerJay (talk) 15:54, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

  Did I miss something, what legal threats? PackMecEng (talk) 13:44, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

  For as much as this goofy goober IC ticks me off, I will give them one, one note: threatening to send people to the arbcom is not a legal threat. It's a Misplaced Pages "court", not an IRL court. WP:NLT doesn't apply here, but a whole heck of a lot of else does. BarntToust 13:49, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

  Ah okay thanks! PackMecEng (talk) 13:58, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

  Uh, the English Misplaced Pages's Arbitration Committee is not a court of law? jp×g🗯️ 18:26, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

• Block and TBAN already, this is beyond WP:BOOMERANG at this point, so have no idea why people are !voting that the editor shouldn't be immune from scrutiny; based on BOOMERANG they never were in the first place, and this discussion went full circle boomerang instantly. Anyway, this has wasted my time reading this section, I can only assume the other sections also wasted a lot of time. The editor is clearly being disruptive, casting aspersions, and is wasting everyone's time. Please don't allow this editor to drag this on any further than it already has been dragged out, such as requesting delays from ARBCOM to provide evidence or otherwise. CNC (talk) 17:33, 16 January 2025 (UTC)
• <Final Jeopardy music plays> I can't help but notice that IntrepidContributor has gone quiet since promising to expose the cabal to Arbcom... - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 23:24, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

  You too, huh? Shall we ping someone uninvolved for a block due to legal threats and general disruption, or are you ready to do the deed? TiggerJay (talk) 23:28, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

  @The Bushranger, I endorse you making the block on IntrepidContributor for NOTHERE and DISRUPTIVE. BarntToust 23:32, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

  See WP:ANIFLU. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 23:42, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Dinglelingy

No edits to mainspace since 2016. Blocked as WP:NOTHERE. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 10:03, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

(Should we continue to keep all similar issues documented in the same monster section?)

Dinglelingy (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

This WP:SPA seems to dip in and out of this controversy whenever things get "interesting", and here comes now again dipping in with some fairly spicy arguments on the Lab Leak theory talkpage: ,

None of this user's contributions in this area are net positives for Misplaced Pages, and I submit that it would have been better had the proposed WP:NOTHERE block been enacted when first proposed: . I guess a topic ban from COVID-19 could work too?

jps (talk) 02:07, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

• 115 edits ever, and only 4 minor ones to article space. Last seen arguing on the talkpages of COVID conspiracy articles in 2021 for which they were warned multiple times, and back after four years doing the same thing ? That's the definition of WP:NOTHERE. Indeffed. Black Kite (talk) 08:38, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Bgsu98 mass-nominating articles for deletion and violating WP:BEFORE

• Bgsu98 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Hello! Sorry if this isn't the right place to post this.
I noticed an editor named Bgsu98 who had been mass-nominating figure skater articles for deletion. It is too obvious to me that he doesn't do even a minimum search required by WP:BEFORE before nominating. (I must note that most of the skaters he nominates for AfD aren't English, so a foreign language search is required. Sometimes you need to search on a foreign search engine. For example, Google seems to ignore many Russian websites recently.)
I have counted 45 articles nominated by him at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Skating. And it is worrying that people seem to rely on the nominator's competence and vote "delete" without much thought.

I should note that Bgsu98 doesn't seem to stop even when an article he nominated has been kept. He nominated Kamil Białas (a national medalist) two times with the same rationale (Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Kamil Białas (2nd nomination)). One can really wonder why he does this.

P.S. More information is here: Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Figure Skating#Notability guidelines. What happened is that the notability guidelines for some sportspeople were changed a few years ago. And a large chunk of figure skater articles (most of them, honestly) are now outside of WP:NSKATE. It seems that no one acted on this change until Bgsu98 came.

P.P.S. As I stated on the WikiProject Figure Skating talk page I linked above, I think it was very unfair to change the rules. Especially since web sources tend to die out after some time.

P.P.P.S. I would also like to note that I am polite, while Bgsu98 has already accused me of "bad-faith accusations and outright lies" (source). --Moscow Connection (talk) 01:06, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

as the closer of several skating AfDs, I have no issue with a DRV if @Moscow Connection or any other editor believes I closed it in error. However MC, you seem to acknowledge these skaters don't meet the rules and have an issue with the rules. That isn't grounds for a DRV nor a report against @Bgsu98 who is nominating based on community consensus. Star Mississippi 02:03, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

I agree with Star Mississippi. But just to give some scope, this cleaning house, mostly of ice skating junior champions, is not recent, it's been going on for at least 6-9 months now, it was originally done through the use of PROD'd articles. But while there have been some objections raised over the past year, Bgsu98's efforts have mostly received support from editors who believe Misplaced Pages is bloated with biographies of marginally notable athletes. Over the past two weeks, through the use of AFD, we have seen dozens and dozens (hundreds?) of annual national skating championship articles either deleted or redirected. But I just want to note that these AFDs wouldn't have closed as "Delete all" or "Redirect all" without the support of other AFD participants. Very few editors are arguing to Keep them all. Liz 02:45, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

"However MC, you seem to acknowledge these skaters don't meet the rules and have an issue with the rules."
— They don't meet WP:NSKATE, but most (if not all) are famous people and should meet WP:GNG. Therefore, caution should be exercised when deleting. I don't think a national silver medalist can be unknown, it is just that reliable sources are hard or even impossible to find now. It appears that some years ago the rules didn't require WP:GNG, so skater articles were created with simply "He advanced to the free skate at the 2010 World Championships" or "He is a national senior silver medalist", which was enough for an article to not be "picked at". The editors who created skater articles back then probably didn't want to do more than a bare minimum and didn't care to add reliable sources beyond the ISU website profile. One who decides to delete a skater article must keep in mind that reliable sources probably existed at the time the article was created. Cause, as I've said, these skaters arn't unknown. They represented their countries at the highest possible level of competition.
(I've recently noticed that Google News don't go as far back as before. Some web sites deleted their older content. Some have even completely disappeared. Like, I mostly edit music articles, and I've noticed that if didn't create some articles 10 years ago, I wouldn't be able to create them now.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 17:34, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

Even if being a junior national medallist was enough in and of itself, WP:V has always been a thing. You can't just state some fact that would meet a specific notability guideline like WP:NSKATE without providing verification of the claim without the possibility that the article will be nominated at AFD or redirected. TarnishedPath 02:35, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

@Star Mississippi and Liz: A WP:DRV, a deletion review? Is it maybe possible to undelete "Lilia Biktagirova" (Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Lilia Biktagirova)? Cause I was searching for sources for Alexandra Ievleva and found something like a short biography of hers, two paragraphs long.
Here: "Тренер Трусовой, почти партнерша Жубера, резонансная Иевлева: кто соревновался с Туктамышевой на ее 1-м ЧР (2008)".
And again, it was Bgsu98 who nominated the article back in May. And he was told, I'm quoting User:Hydronium Hydroxide: "There are a whole bunch of similarly deficient nominations. Really, such blanket nominations without evidence of WP:BEFORE and consideration of WP:ATD should be all procedurally kept as WP:SKCRIT#3 given lack of a valid deletion rationale." --Moscow Connection (talk) 23:54, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

After looking at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Lilia Biktagirova, I think no one will say that I was incorrect about how people vote at AfD. There's even a comment like this: "WP:NSKATE lists some very clear criteria for inclusion, which this article does not meet." And then a more experienced user noted that you should actually search for coverage that may satisfy WP:GNG, but no one actually searched and the article was deleted. --Moscow Connection (talk) 00:06, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

I have also found an interview with Lilia Biktagirova: . Yes, it is an interview, but there an editorial paragraph about her (an introductiion). There also a short paragraph here → . Not much, but considering she competed almost 20 years ago... --Moscow Connection (talk) 00:34, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

Yes @Moscow Connection you're welcome to file a deletion review or request that @Liz provide you the draft to improve with the sourcing you identified. Neither of us can unilaterally overturn the community discussion. Star Mississippi 14:28, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

Yes @Moscow Connection you're welcome to file a deletion review or request that @Liz provide you the draft to improve with the sourcing you identified. Neither of us can unilaterally overturn the community discussion. Star Mississippi 14:36, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

Okay. --Moscow Connection (talk) 17:09, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

This is a content dispute and not an ANI-worthy issue. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 03:41, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

I don't think this is a content dispute. I think the user violates WP:BEFORE, otherwise it would be impossible to create tons of nominations. And please look at the AfD page, all his nominations simply say: "Non-notable figure skater", "Non-notable figure skater, PROD removed", "Non-notable figure skater; no senior-level medal placements" or "Non-notable figure skater; highest medal placement was silver at the German nationals". It is obvious that there's no WP:BEFORE research and as little consideration as "humanly possible".
Okay, since Bgsu98 pinged someone in his support, I'll ping BeanieFan11 and Doczilla. (Sorry for disturbing you, BeanieFan11 and Doczilla.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 15:46, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

When closing one AfD, I made some observations about that day's many AfDs and noted in that one close regarding Bgsu98: "The nominator's burst of dozens of nominations within half an hour failed to stimulate any discussion about many of them." In my meager opinion, the massive number of rapid deletion nominations rather strongly might suggest, at the very least, a lack of due diligence regarding each and a likely violation of WP:BEFORE. Doczilla _{Ohhhhhh, no!} 07:02, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

Moscow Connection claims to be polite, yet wrote the following: "random people at AfD don't care about actually checking the notability and just vote "delete per nom". Pinging Shrug02 who also found that comment objectionable. I have made an effort to thank editors who have participated in my AFD's, regardless of whether they have always agreed with my findings, because AFD's that end in "no consensus" do nothing but waste everyone's time.

He has been adversarial and confrontational in every communication to me. From Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Hanna Harrell: "By the way, I don't understand your agenda here on AfD... Like, you nomitated Kamil Białas 2 (two) times with exactly the same rationale... Are you planning to nominate it 100 times?"

I always appreciate constructive feedback when it's delivered in a courteous and professional manner. Moscow Connection seems incapable of courtesy or professionalism. Bgsu98 (Talk) 04:32, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

• C'mon, User:Bgsu98, civility goes both ways. We can discuss the value of these articles and the AFD process without attacking each other. Flinging mud doesn't give anyone the moral high ground. Liz 04:43, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

  I apologize, Liz; I am just at my wit's end with this editor. Bgsu98 (Talk) 04:45, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

• Here's my take, User:Bgsu98. You have been taking extremely BOLD actions now for most of 2024, proposing the removal of certain articles that are now being judged to be of non-notable article subjects. I think we have even had other discussions about these mass deletions on ANI before when they were still being done in the PROD world. When you take on a project like cleaning house of hundreds of articles that other editors spent time creating and improving, you can expect pushback even if you have policy on your side. Any action that seems "mass" can cause alarm in regular editors who don't believe sufficient care is being taken before tagging these articles for deletion. While I might agree with the overall goal of your project, I think it's important to have empathy for editors who have contributed to these articles over the years that are now being regularly deleted. Most of my work involves the deletion of pages and I still feel some pangs of guilt over removing articles that editors have poured hours into, even if i know they don't meet Misplaced Pages's current standards. It's a job that must be done but I know that it's disappointing to many of our content creators. Liz 05:45, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

  As I have been pinged on this discussion I thought I would 1 confirm I did find @Moscow Connection to be somewhat rude and condescending in their repeated assertions that those who vote on these skating AFDs do not do any research and are basically sheep just voting delete and 2 most of these nominated bios are a few sentences or just a table of stats copy and pasted so @Liz I doubt anyone spent hours putting them together. Finally I feel @Moscow Connection is now looking to use any procedure they can to try and besmirch @Bgsu98 and derail their valid efforts to remove some of the seemingly thousands of sports bios that do not meet current Misplaced Pages guidelines and are of interest to few, if any, general reader. If anyone is in need of reprimand or sanction over this matter (which has been blown out of all proportion), it is @Moscow Connection Shrug02 (talk) 09:51, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

  Why should I be "reprimanded"? My comments about "people at AfD' were non-specific, while Bgsu98 directly accused me of lying. (In the Russian Misplaced Pages, he would be blocked for this "automatically".)
  Also, a note to admins: Can it be that Bgsu98 finds fun in annoying other editors? I can't really explain the content of his user page differently. Yes, surely, different people can have different motivation for editing Misplaced Pages, but I don't think it is a "normal situation" when you look at someone's user page and see how the person likes to be "evil".
  And, btw, please note that Bgsu98 summoned Shrug02 here for the purpose of supporting him. I haven't summoned anybody. (Maybe some people would notice, but Bgsu98 deleted my ANI notice from his talk page immediately.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 15:35, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

  @Moscow Connection I am going to be generous and presume English is not your first language so your choice of wording might be a little off. However, I was not "summoned" or asked to support anyone. @Bgsu98 pinged me and I gave my view. I did not say you SHOULD be reprimanded, I said IF anyone was to be sanctioned over this matter then it would be you. My reasoning for this is your attacking @Bgsu98, making broad statements questioning the intelligence of people at AFD discussions and using this forum incorrectly. As for what happens on Russian Misplaced Pages, that is their busines. I hope you have read @HyperAccelerated's comment as I think it sums this situation up nicely. Shrug02 (talk) 15:51, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

  I haven't questioned anybody's intelligence. It is just my experience that many people trust the nominator and vote "delete" without much thinking. They maybe quickly visit the article in discussion, look at the "References" section, that's enough for them. And they typically don't speak Russian or Hebrew or whatever. So, when they see "Selepen", they hardly go to yandex.ru and search for "Шелепень". --Moscow Connection (talk) 16:09, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

  Okay, "summon" is not the right word. Sorry. "He asked you to come". But that "I am going to be generous" sentence doesn't look polite. --Moscow Connection (talk) 16:30, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

  According to this, "summon" and "ask to" are the same thing. --Moscow Connection (talk) 16:30, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

  @Moscow Connection

  Cambridge Dictionary definition of summon (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/summon) is "to order someone to come to or be present at a particular place, or to officially arrange a meeting of people."

  No-one ORDERED me to take part in this discussion.

  If there is so much significant coverage for these skaters then the simple solution is for you to add it to the articles in question with suitable references and then AFDs will end as keep.

  I am now finished with this discussion and I hope the admins step in and end it soon.

  All the best to everyone involved. Shrug02 (talk) 16:42, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

  Moscow Connection wrote the following in his original complaint: ”…decided to mass-delete articles that don't comply with WP:NSKATE… I am sure most articles he deleted had the right to stay per WP:GNG.” I don’t have the ability to “mass-delete” anything, and if most of those articles met WP:GNG, the users at AFD would have voted to keep them. Just two examples of MC’s falsehoods. Bgsu98 (Talk) 16:24, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

  OK. But you have also mass-prodded articles, that's the same as "deleting". (Like a "delayed deletion".) --Moscow Connection (talk) 16:36, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

Let me help you out here, Moscow Connection. As it happens, Bgsu98 is a veteran editor with both tens of thousands of edits and a long history of editing skating articles. He is not, as you imply, some bomb thrower hellbent in laying waste to skating articles. Moving right along ...

(2) Your curious assertion that he was the first person to AfD no-longer-qualifying skating articles is inaccurate; I did so myself, right after the NSPORTS changes, and I recall several editors also doing so.

(3) The Bialas AfDs did not close as Keep, as you wrongly assert. They closed as "no consensus", with almost no participation and multiple relistings; that's exactly the kind of situation where renomination to seek an actual consensus is appropriate.

(4) Rules change on Misplaced Pages, by the bucketload. I have a hard time seeing what is "very unfair" about this, unless "very unfair" is a secret code for "I don't like it, so it's unfair." And ... seriously? You've been on Misplaced Pages for fifteen years, have over sixty thousand edits, have participated in nearly a hundred AfDs? I'd expect this level of confusion from a first-week newbie, not from an editor of your experience. Ravenswing 06:04, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

He only joined in 2021. I've looked at his "Pages Created" count, what he has been doing is creating pages for small figure skating events (for their yearly editions) since late 2023. That's hardly "a long history". --Moscow Connection (talk) 15:57, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

“Small figure skating events” like the National Championships of the U.S., Canada, France, Germany, and Italy; the Grand Prix series, including the Grand Prix Final; and the Challenger Series events? 1) Article Creation isn’t the only metric by which Misplaced Pages contributions can be measured, and 2) Referring to any of those events as “small” is ridiculous and insulting to all parties involved. I should have never even responded yesterday when three different administrators asserted that the original complaint was groundless. I’m done responding to this complainant. Bgsu98 (Talk) 17:07, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

Let me help you out here, Ravenswing. I suspect he's saying it's "very unfair" because it seems to him like it's not fair! jp×g🗯️ 14:04, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Given it is acknowledged that large numbers of articles on figure skaters do not meet Misplaced Pages's inclusion criteria (What happened is that the notability guidelines for some sportspeople were changed a few years ago. And a large chunk of figure skater articles (most of them, honestly) are now outside of WP:NSKATE.), I’m not really seeing anything unexpected here. —

Malcolmxl5 (talk) 12:26, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

As someone uninvolved in all of this, I’m reading that OP gets into a dispute about AfDs and then goes to ANI to make their grievances more visible to admins. Does OP not realize that admins are primarily responsible for moderating, closing, and relisting AfD discussions? Also, as someone else pointed above, this is a content dispute: it does not meet the standard for being urgent, chronic, or intractable. OP’s choice to insult another user by calling their behavior “crazy” multiple times is inappropriate and makes me believe that they might have just thrown a WP: BOOMERANG. HyperAccelerated (talk) 14:38, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

the bar for notability for skaters went up, someone came along and started nominating based on the new guidelines, and OP is upset. that seems to be the gist. i was not involved but didn't that happen in the porno biography area a few years ago? some change raised the bar so a lot of stuff was deleted. ValarianB (talk) 16:20, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

• I do heavily advise slowing down on the nominations. There is not enough editors in the figure skating topic area to give the appropriate amount of time to search for sources for these articles. To be honest, I'm sure that a good number of ones that were closed as "delete" were actually notable but no one did any in-depth BEFORE search (many would not have coverage in English and the coverage would be in foreign newspaper archives). I asked the user yesterday about the extent of the BEFORE searches and only got "Yes, but not as much as some people like" – and then I asked what search was done for the most recent example, from a few hours prior, and they said they had no recollection (which is concerning IMO, to have no idea what searches you did for an article you nominated a few hours prior). Note that the AFD rationales are often really poor; many are simply Non-notable figure skater, which doesn't say much of anything. BeanieFan11 (talk) 16:59, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

  I will slow down on nominations and focus on improving other aspects of the the FS articles, such as updating the infoboxes and tables to conform with our MOS. Bgsu98 (Talk) 17:08, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

  And @Moscow Connection, you can help by, when the nomination involves a person whose native language is written in non-Latin characters (e.g., Cyrillic or Hebrew), replying in the AfD with a link to the native language web search for that person to help establish the presence or absence of notability support. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 17:33, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

  But there are 45 (!) articles nominated for deletion. I looked at the AfD page and understood that it was physically impossible to do anything. So I decided to bring this situation to the attention of the Misplaced Pages community. It is easy to create 1000 AfD nominations with the same rationale ("Non-notable figure skater"), but even these mere 45 AfD nominations utterly scared me and discouraged me from even looking at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Skating. (I really can't do anything. I have some other articles, the ones I created, that need attention. And I have long "to do" lists that wait for years to be taken care of.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 17:57, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

  The answer being, "So?" If neither the article creators nor anyone else has sought to provide proper sourcing for these articles -- the Ievleva article, for example, was created seventeen years ago -- then that just suggests no one's given enough of a damn to bother, and Misplaced Pages will survive these stubs' loss. It is not, nor ever has been, "physically impossible" to do anything about mass deletions; that's ridiculous. An AfD discussion is open for seven days, and it's easy to find adequate sources for an article ... certainly, in the cases of these Russian skaters, for a native speaker of Russian such as yourself. If you can't, the answer isn't that there's some flaw in the process or that Bgsu98 is pulling a fast one on us all. The answer is that the subjects are non-notable, and don't merit Misplaced Pages articles. Ravenswing 07:10, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

  The nominator has agreed to slow down, so the point is kind of moot, but I still wanted to make clear: Ravenswing, 45 AFDs rapidly is ridiculous, especially when next-to-no-BEFORE is done and there previously was no indication of stopping – remember that there's only a few editors in the topic area – and many of these, which are notable, require more than simple Google searches to find the coverage that demonstrates notability (i.e., for many, the coverage would be in places such as difficult-to-find offline newspapers in foreign languages) – making so many nominations rapidly without appropriate searches will inevitably result in some truly notable ones being deleted due to the lack of effort. While you may not care about the stubs, others do, and simply because the two editors who drive-by to the nom and say "Delete per above" didn't find coverage absolutely does not equate to the subject being confirmed non-notable. BeanieFan11 (talk) 16:24, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

  Actually, I have attempted to do something yesterday. I voted and commented on two nominations. ("Alexandra Ievleva" and "Viktoria Vasilieva".) Cause these two are Russian figure skaters, and I know they are famous enough. Immediately a user came and wholesale dismissed all the sources I found. I don't really want to play that game, it's too tiresome. I have found another source for Alexandra Ievleva just now. Let's see what the outcome will be.
  But really, I can't do it anymore. Maybe if these were articles I created, I would invest into searching for sources. Now, I just tried a little bit and saw that some people really want to delete these articles for whatever reason. There are a few people actually searching for sources at some nominations, but mostly it's just that old "you go and provide third-party reliable sources independent of the subject, so I can look at them and dismiss them" game.
  Okay, people will say I am the bad person here, but I have actually tried to save a couple of articles. I don't understand why people so eagerly want to delete articles than can actually be kept. (Okay, there are mostly interviews and short news about the figure skaters placing here and there or missing some events, but those sources are reliable enough. And one can actually take the sources into account and leave the articles be.)
  By the way, I have tried searching on what was once Yandex News, but the news search doesn't work anymore. (Here's an example.) There's nothing prior to 2024 when Yandex sold its assets including the news engine. And I can remember when the list of news articles there went back to 2003 or so... --Moscow Connection (talk) 23:13, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

  What I’m reading is that you don’t like how AfD works, and there hasn’t been any departure from normal processes. ANI is not the appropriate venue to discuss these issues. HyperAccelerated (talk) 10:56, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

  I'm sorry if this looks like a ramble. These were initially two or three separate replies. --Moscow Connection (talk) 23:13, 8 January 2025 (UTC)

Arbitrary break

...editors who believe Misplaced Pages is bloated with biographies of marginally notable athletes. Just curious if you or anyone else honestly believes that the opinions of these editors takes priority over the view held in the real world that six million articles falls substantially short of "the sum of all human knowledge". One such view published almost five years ago contained the following statement: "According to one estimate, the sum of human knowledge would require 104 million articles". I know some of you are in serious denial and will try to suppress this as a result, but I'm gonna keep saying it anyway. We don't have the sum of all human knowledge, nor are we trying to achieve it. At best, we're the sum of what Google and legacy media has spoon-fed you today within the past X number of years. RadioKAOS / Talk to me, Billy / Transmissions (posted 00:37, January 9, 2025 UTC)

RadioKAOS, I'm not going to argue about whose "view takes priority" in the area of the sum of human knowledge but in an AFD discussion, decisions are made by determining the consensus of the editors who bothered to show up and present compelling policy-based arguments. That is typically editors who are active on Misplaced Pages and have an opinion about an article, not any scholar coming up with estimates on the necessary number of articles we should have. How many AFDs do you participate in on a regular basis? And there is no one here that who will attempt to "suppress" your argument. As long as you are not personally attacking any editors, I think you are free to have whatever opinions you do have about this project. No penalty. Liz 03:52, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

@Liz: The problem is that these editors who "bother to show up" don't equally represent the community. Maybe I'm wrong, but there are some people who are mainly active on AfD and who act as "gatekeepers".
A normal editor can easily not notice when a page is nominated for deletion, but the AfD regulars will come and vote "delete".
Also, I wonder how it happened that the NSKATE guidelines were changed so drastically. I think I have found a discussion about that but I am not sure. A user who was tired of people voting "keep per WP:NSPORT", proposed to get rid of the "Misplaced Pages:Notability (sports)" completely. And then there was a discussion with around 70 people attending. But for some reason at least some sports got spared the worst fate (or got out intact), while figure skating was "destroyed". Moreover, the Misplaced Pages:Notability (sports) revision history shows signs of edit warring. So it is just possible that the "deletionists" were the most active/agressive and they won. Some sports wikiprojects defended their sports, and some like WikiProject Figure skating weren't active at the time and didn't do anything. --Moscow Connection (talk) 17:50, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

Moscow Connection, I guess you can choose to call them "gatekeepers" but I consider them dedicated volunteers. The number of editors who participate in AFDs has declined for at least the past two years, so if you can think of a way to get more editors involved, or if you want to help out by spending, let's say, 10 hours a week evaluating articles and sources in AFD deletion discussions, your help would be welcomed. But don't criticize the editors who actually show up and help. Without them, we would only have the opinions of editors who nominate articles for deletion and I'm sure you wouldn't like it if all of those nominated articles were simpy deleted without any feedback at all from other editors. Liz 06:14, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

I am not an AfD regular, and what happens there scares me. When I commented, people just bombarded me with "This is not a third-party reliable source independent of the subject", and it didn't look to me like they even knew what "third-party" was. (I could swear my source was third-party and reliable and independent, but they said it was not and bombarded me with some random links to the WP space.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 17:50, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

I had a look at the AfDs you participated in and I think I can explain why there. In this AfD all the links you provided were to sports.ru - these are not independent because sports.ru is the website for the Russian sporting body of whom the subject is a member. They thus don't demonstrate the subject has any independent coverage of their athletic career. I hope this helps. Simonm223 (talk) 14:02, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

You act like some people on AfD who dismiss sources "for the sake of dismissing". Why did even think it was a website for some "Russian sporting body of whom the subject is a member"? It is just a sports news website (a sports portal) like any other. --Moscow Connection (talk) 20:56, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

ru:Sports (сайт). Really, that's quite similar to what happens on AfD. I can go deep into Google Search, spend lots of time, but some people will just say "not third-party" or smth like this. Where do they see that and how do they come to their conclusions? It's a mystery to me. --Moscow Connection (talk) 21:05, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

(nods) Heck, "some authority" came up with canards such as that we all ought to take 10,000 steps a day, drink eight glasses of water a day, and that our basal body temps are all 98.6. I likewise decline to bow before the suspect, threadbare wisdom of "one estimate" that we need 104,000,000 articles ... speaking of serious denial. (grins) Ravenswing 07:15, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

@Ravenswing:, why are you trying to "repulse" my attemps to save a couple of articles at AfD? First, you came here to defend Bgsu98. And then, you came to the two nominations where I commented, only to wholesale dismiss all the sources I found.
And when I found another source, you said that there were "3 sentences" while there were actually 7.
I've looked at your contributions, you don't look like someone who can read Russian or has any interest in figure skating. So why are you doing this? (Okay, you can have the articles, you won.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 16:49, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

Please be careful with the WP:ASPERSIONS, Moscow Connection. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 16:54, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

Okay. --Moscow Connection (talk) 17:09, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

My 2 cents. In my experience, Bgsu clearly does not conduct BEFORE searches (and seems proud of it), ignores actual coverage of the subjects (even when present in the articles), mass nominates batches of articles (50 in 30 minutes is a hilarious example), consistently fails to adhere to AGF, quickly re-nominates articles when the result is not to their liking, inaccurately summarizes examples of SIGCOV when they are provided in discussions, and tops it off by clearing their XfD logs. JTtheOG (talk) 21:20, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

That's a significant number of evidence-free aspersions you're casting, would you like to evidence them? Incidentally, mass-nominating articles isn't necessarily an issue; I have done it in the past but I still examined each article before nominating them in one batch. Black Kite (talk) 21:33, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

I do not wish to dig through hundreds of AfDs, no. Just providing what I've gathered in my experience. And I disagree that 50 AfDs in half an hour is not an issue.

Here is one example of the types of responses you can expect to get when you provide SIGCOV in one of his discussions: Nobody is going to add anything to this article. The same people pop up on these AFD's, squawk about how someone having their picture taken for their local newspaper qualifies as "significant coverage", and then the article is left in the same crappy condition it was when we started. JTtheOG (talk) 21:40, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

And here is an example of the nom wholly ignoring GNG and insisting on using deprecated NSPORTS guidelines after SIGCOV was added to the article. Dozens and dozens of more examples. JTtheOG (talk) 21:46, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

Another example of ignoring SIGCOV already present in the article. JTtheOG (talk) 21:53, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

@GiantSnowman: @Black Kite: 1 and 2 and 3 and 4 and 5 and 6 and 7 and 8 and 9 and 10 more examples, all within a week of eachother and many with SIGCOV already present in the article. JTtheOG (talk) 21:56, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

Here is an example from two days ago where they nominated a skater who finished top 4 at the World Championships because they assumed the sources in the article were the only sources available on the subject. JTtheOG (talk) 22:00, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

OK this AFD, coupled with the historical ones, is very concerning. I understand that not every editor is going to be able to find every source, but it appears that Bgsu98 does not even bother looking. I would support a topic ban from AFDs. GiantSnowman 22:03, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

Here and here is an example of four users expressing their concerns about BEFORE searches and their misunderstanding of notability policies. More recently, concerns were raised here and here, although bgsu deleted the latter from their talk page with the message Stay off my talk page. You have some nerve using the term “good will” considering your appalling behavior. JTtheOG (talk) 22:14, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

And here are More and more and more and more and more and more and more examples of nom ignoring the concept of GNG and/or entirely disregarding SIGCOV already present in the article. As Liz notes here, close to 100 articles were deleted through PROD before I was able to contest them. Many of these that I contested and were later kept in AfDs with clear GNG passes are present among the examples I've given. JTtheOG (talk) 22:19, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

Thanks - anything more recent than May 2024? GiantSnowman 22:02, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

Going through their contributions, I see about a week ago there was a period of 30 minutes where they did seven AfDs -- not what I would call a paragon of thoroughness. But fifty in a half-hour is absolutely absurd regardless of when it happened -- I take more time than that to line up a shot when I throw a tissue into the trash can at the other end of the room. jp×g🗯️ 14:07, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

It would be helpful if you could provide some examples of a) a number of nominations in a short period of time and b) several AFDs where the rationale is deeply flawed. GiantSnowman 21:53, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

If you go to 10 May 2024 here, you get exactly 50 nominations in 30 minutes. A good number of those were kept per AFDstats. BeanieFan11 (talk) 22:03, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

Great, thanks - see above, I think we need an AFD topic ban. GiantSnowman 22:04, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

Well, let's start with that I'm a frequent participant at ANI, and I no more "came here to defend" anyone than any other editor who's chimed in here. I dismissed those sources wholesale because I burned some time to look over each and every one of them (as did more than one editor), and found that not a single one of them provided the "significant coverage" in detail to the subjects that the GNG requires. As it happens, I have edited skating articles in the past -- you're not claiming to have truly gone through my whole twenty-year contribution history, are you?

So why am I doing this? Perhaps it's strange to you that anyone could act out of a dispassionate wish to uphold Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines, instead of out of partisan motives, but you'll find that most ANI regulars do just that. Ravenswing 21:18, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

• I've participated in a lot of these AfDs, I believe mostly !voting delete, and I've gotta say I am not happy to see it implied that AfD participants were blindly going along with Bgsu. I guarantee that I perform thorough searches on every single AfD I !vote it, especially these mass-noms with essentially no rationale. Bgsu's noms are, for better or worse, fairly accurate and generally result in the deletion of articles that should be deleted. However, I have seen several examples of incivility and assuming bad faith from this user (although I have experienced neither myself) and I agree that the sheer quantity of nominations does not promote a healthy level of community input. The individual noms are generally okay, but mass noms like this one I found today, tried participating in, and gave up on can be a little overwhelming. I doubt this merits any sanctions, but maybe a ratelimit on AfD noms (20 per day?) is called for. Toadspike 22:56, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

  I did say a few days ago I wasn't going to engage in this discussion any further but since I keep getting notifications about it I figured I'd weigh in as the conversation seems to have gone in a totally different direction. As @Toadspike and others have pointed out I too am not happy that it is being implied that people who voted in these AFDs are blindly following @Bgsu98 without doing any independent research. I refuted this on the figure skating talk page when this all started and on this page. Also, as has been previously pointed out by other editors, this particular discussion began with @Moscow Connection basically not liking the rules on significant coverage and then coming to this forum to seek retribution against @Bgsu98. Now it seems that their improper use of this forum, ref bombing of articles and general complaining that they don't like something and how unfair it is in their opinion, may actually lead to them getting what they want. This sets a very poor precedent that if you don't like something on Misplaced Pages and you jump up and down and wail about it enough you can get your way. Yes @Bgsu98 probably nominates too many similar articles at one time but they have agreed to slow down now, and yes they have nominated articles for AFD that have then been kept because significant coverage was found, but they have also nominated a lot of articles which have not been found to have significant coverage and have subsequently been deleted following the due, consensus based procedure and closed as such by an admin. @Moscow Connection is already seeking to have articles which have been deleted following AFDs unilaterally reopened. If you now sanction @Bgsu98 we may as well just give Jimmy Wales a call and ask him to hand over Misplaced Pages to the whims and wants of @Moscow Connection Shrug02 (talk) 23:25, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

  • I haven't asked anybody to give Misplaced Pages over to me. What do you mean by "unilaterally reopened"? If you are refering to me asking Star Mississippi to undelete the "Lilia Biktagirova" article, what's wrong with it? It was deleted without a proper Google search, and I have found some sources for her. Just look at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Lilia Biktagirova. At the very end, a user that goes by the name of Kvng, noticed: No one in this discussion (including myself) has mentioned anything about searching for coverage that may satisfy WP:GNG, but that was all, no one did anything. You and another user seem to have claimed here that you do a proper search on every Bgsu98's nomination, but I don't see you on that AfD page.
    You really sound like you think I'm doing something awful in my attempt to rescue an article. Come on, she's not someone terrible who wants to promote herself on Misplaced Pages or something. She's just a fairly famous figure skater. You don't need to defend Misplaced Pages from her. --Moscow Connection (talk) 00:04, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
  • I've decided to save "Alexandra Ievleva" (Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Alexandra Ievleva) and I've already found a couple of dozen articles talking about her. Yes, maybe the others will say those are mostly interviews and the Women's Sport website is not good enough, but I have found lots and lots about her! I don't think you or Bgsu98 would be able to do that cause you don't read Russian and don't know how to search (I tried to add different additional key words, and every time I found something new). --Moscow Connection (talk) 00:04, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

    1 you don't know if I read Russian, Chinese, Martian or what, 2 now you say I "don't know how to search" which is yet another unfounded suggestion that I don't make any effort before giving opinions on AFDs, 3 you don't know what searches were done on Lilia Biktagirova and neither do I, 4 I wasn't involved in that discussion and I try to focus more on adding to articles then deleting them, 5 my point was, and is, you don't like the rules so you have launched a campaign of complaining to try to get your way instead of going through the proper channels and seeking to get consensus to alter said rules. Frankly I'm tired of this and of you belittling everyone else as if you are the only person who knows what is right and are somehow able to read the minds and intentions of everyone else. Go ahead and, as you put it, "save" your Russian skaters. I genuinely hope you do and that the articles are filled with interesting and well-sourced information. That's the aim of Misplaced Pages to inform the population about things worth knowing. Shrug02 (talk) 00:25, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

    • "You don't know if I read Russian, Chinese, Martian or what"
      — What I do is called abductive reasoning. What you just did by claiming you can read Martian, I honestly don't know.
      I've started this discussion because I saw the user's 45 nominations at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Skating and that scared me a lot. --Moscow Connection (talk) 01:00, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

      It's called ironic humour and, with everything going on in the world right now, if a Misplaced Pages AFD scared you a lot then you are obviously in the very fortunate position to have so few worries. Anyway I'm moving on to spend my time more productively. I sincerely wish you the best in your endeavours. Shrug02 (talk) 01:05, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

  • I appreciate your input and insight. As I told BeanieFan11 earlier, I promised to slow down on nominations, and in fact, I had decided that I wouldn't even entertain the idea of additional nominations until the ones already in the system work their way through.
    I can also promise to strive to be more thorough in researching these potential nominations and provide more detailed rationales in the future. I am also fine with any limitations that the community requests in terms of numbers of nominations. Twenty per day seems awfully high; I was thinking more like two! Bgsu98 (Talk) 23:28, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

    Sorry, Bgsu, I completely missed that you had committed to slowing down. I think that's a great idea that resolves the issue here. Just remember, when you get frustrated by other editors, do your best to stay polite – if you can't, simply step away from the keyboard for a moment. I don't want to see you get in trouble for one too many snarky comments. Toadspike 09:51, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

  • 20 nominations per day is 7300 per year. The limit should be more like 0. (And if it is decided to be 1 or something like that, Bgsu98 will have to demonstrate that he has searched for sources every time. I prefer 0, naturally.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 00:16, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

    A limit of 0 is asinine, and I highly suggest you strike this comment. — The Hand That Feeds You: 18:24, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

    Yeah, agreed - really not helping move away from the comments above the MC is here because they don't like AFD. GiantSnowman 18:57, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

  While I do not know whether @Bgsu98 should be restricted from AfD as I haven't been able to go into the weeds on this, I disagree with I doubt this merits any sanctions, but maybe a ratelimit on AfD noms (20 per day?) is called for. @Toadspike. No editor should be nominating 20 articles per day. That's unsustainable for AfD participants, clerks or closers. We do not have the editor volume to assess that many nominations from one nominator. Star Mississippi 00:24, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

  20 per day is a lot, but given the numbers thrown around above (50 in 30 minutes) I figured it would be a massive improvement. But since Bgsu has committed to nominating far fewer articles with Twenty per day seems awfully high; I was thinking more like two! I suppose the whole discussion is moot. Toadspike 11:04, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

  I don't think it's that easy. The question is who will check all the hundreds or thousands of his previous nominations. Definitely not me. (I've looked through several active ones, found some sources, commented here and there, and got very tired.)
  As I have commented below, when problems were found with Sander.v.Ginkel's articles, he was told to go through all his articles and check them. (Actually, there was a user who volunteered to help, but that user was revealed to be Sander.v.Ginkel himself, cause no one in their right mind would have volunteered to check 40000 articles. I, personally, don't want to be a slave and don't want to check Bgsu98's past nominations, especially knowing how little effort he put into creating them and that I would have to spend years looking for sources.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 11:29, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

  It's a volunteer project. Someone may choose to, as you did initially, or no one will. But unless they're salted, there's nothing prohibiting restoration to drafts if WP:SIRS can be found. We can fix going forward but can't always fix what happened before even when there's a collaborative effort. Star Mississippi 13:40, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

• Of note. User JTtheOG is canvassing apparent like-minded editors to this discussion, here and here. Zaathras (talk) 23:25, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

  They are not like-minded actually. In fact, both had previously expressed they disagreed with my initial assertions, which I had not yet provided evidence for. I was notifying them of examples being provided here of previously unsubstantiated aspersions. JTtheOG (talk) 23:44, 9 January 2025 (UTC)

  "As per previous discussions..." I love hearing that JTtheOG is having discussions about me with other users, but has never once attempted to communicate directly to me. (Snide comments in AFD's don't count as broaching conversation.) Bgsu98 (Talk) 00:11, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

  • If even that's true, no none came. (No one of the whole two.) And Bgsu98 did the same by pinging his like-minded AfD colleague. (He pinged him immediately.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 00:21, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
• As a fellow WP:FIGURE participant, and without having gone over the particular cases, I am normally a rather deletion-oriented editor but am an inclusionist for skating specifically as sources are not as online on this topic as usual, and often in foreign languages, so I am not usually in favor of deleting a skater's article unless we really do exhaust all possible sources of notability. I do request that @Bgsu98: convene a broader discussion over notability as I also do disagree with the current guidelines, but even without that a discussion is warranted. Even if a mass deletion is warranted, it should be handled in one mass AfD, not a gazillion separate ones.--Jasper Deng (talk) 01:11, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

  Mass AfDs routinely get shot down reflexively, on the (somewhat threadbare) grounds that they should all be reviewed on their individual merits, and not lumped in a group. Something of a Catch-22 there. In any event, the answer for an inadequately sourced article is not to jump through extraordinary hoops to find what isn't there. The answer is that the article cannot be sustained -- but can be recreated without prejudice should such sourcing surface down the road -- even when it's an article on a figure skater. Ravenswing 00:03, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

  Right, good point. But it still makes sense for cases where the rationale is mostly the same. Maybe not 100 articles in one but 5-10. This should help keep it at a more manageable level. Jasper Deng (talk) 05:32, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

  I agree with you, but in recent years, a significant number of editors haven't: sufficient to sabotage most attempts to do so. Ravenswing 13:33, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

• I came across this randomly in my watchlist.. can I recommend everyone take a step back and focus on the issue at hand? Currently, WP:BEFORE states the following: Search for additional sources, if the main concern is notability: The minimum search expected is a normal Google search, a Google Books search, a Google News search, and a Google News archive search; Google Scholar is suggested for academic subjects. So, I'd ask @Moscow Connection: to please consider whether their views on BEFORE are in line with what it actually says. I appreciate that MC states many of these nominated articles are for non-English speaking and in some cases non-Western world skaters, and so it may not be possible to find many of the potential sources in an English language Google search.But MC, can you identify any deletion nominations for which there were sources that could be found in any of the following: a normal Google search, or a Google Books search, or a Google News search, or a Google News archive search? If you can identify such, please provide the deletion discussion, and a link or other method of showing us how you came across the sources on one of those searches. If you can't, then it sounds like your argument is more for expanding WP:BEFORE to require non-English language searches for non-English subjects. I take no strong view on whether it would be a good idea - I think that BEFORE should certainly recommend more far reaching searches for subjects who may not be satisfied by a Google search.. but required? Not everyone knows how to use other search engines, and they may not even know what terms to use (or be able to type them easily). And that doesn't even begin to touch the big problem with Google - Google results (if you're logged in, at least), are significantly based on your search history, and if you use Google Chrome browser (on mobile or PC), or the Android OS, they are also based on your usage of those platforms (such as websites visited, apps used, etc). So it's entirely possible that MC searching Google may see a result on the first page or two that someone else searching Google would not have seen on the first couple pages at all.Regardless, that's an argument/discussion to be had on another page (likely WP:VPP). Since this all seems to be a misconstruing of BEFORE by MC, and assuming everyone involved tones down the rhetoric, I'd recommend this move towards a reminder to MC that BEFORE, as it stands now, does not require anything beyond a Google (and Google News and Google Books) to be searched, and until that changes, the mere fact sources exist on other search engines does not constitute a violation of BEFORE unless there is evidence they would've been found through those search means. And I recommend that MC (or anyone, really) starts a discussion at the appropriate place if they think changes to BEFORE are necessary. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 01:20, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
  • I read this and tried to search some names from AfD on Google Books. A search for Nicole Nönnig's name definitely returns something non-trivial: ("Nicole Nönnig kehrte allerdings nach kurzer Pause zurück . Mit Matthias Bleyer bildete sie ein Paar , das 2003 sogar internationale Wettbewerbe bestritt . Die Schlittschuhe haben Nicole und Matthias inzwischen jedoch an den Nagel ..."). --Moscow Connection (talk) 01:36, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

    I'll leave this to others to discuss, but this is the type of "evidence" you would be expected to produce to show that the user did not comply with BEFORE. That said, one instance of mention in a book does not meet WP:GNG, so unless you can show that there are multiple instances of significant coverage in reliable sources that would've been found on a BEFORE, then it still doesn't mean that the user did not do a valid BEFORE. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 01:41, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

    Here's a link to the book: . (I've tried and tried, but I don't know how to add "bks" to the Google Books search URL.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 01:45, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

    A search for "李宣潼" on Google News returned this article: and a couple more. The one I linked looks very solid, it is a full-fledged biography. (The AfD discussion is here: Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Li Xuantong. As usual, the rationale is: Non-notable figure skater; no senior-level medal placements.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 02:13, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

    And one more article → about Li Xuantong and her partner Wang Xinkang (also nominated for deletion by Bgsu98). It's like a print magazine article + interview, looks "massive". --Moscow Connection (talk) 02:25, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

    Another example: Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Kim Yu-jae.
    A simple Google News search for "김유재 2009" returns a lot. I didn't look too far, but I found two lengthy articles about her and her twin sister on the first page (, ) and voted "keep".
    (I would also note that there are already some AfD regulars present in that discussion. But no one has googled her name.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 03:59, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

    OMG, Bgsu98 nominated her sister for deletion, too: Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Kim Yu-seong. He nominated her on January 1, and no one has commented since. (Okay, I'll vote now and save her.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 04:03, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

    You do realize there’s a difference between an article about a person and the person themselves? You’re not saving anyone here. You are a volunteer Misplaced Pages editor, not a volunteer firefighter. HyperAccelerated (talk) 06:21, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

    @HyperAccelerated: Did it sound strange or silly? Sure, I understand the difference. But people do say "article's notability" when it's actually "the notability of an article's subject". I thought that an article and its subject are interchangeable in colloquial wikispeech. --Moscow Connection (talk) 06:29, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

    Personally, I would feel I had done a slipshod job if I made a nomination for an article with some passing-mention search results, and I did not address these in the nomination statement, or at the very least indicate that I had made the search. jp×g🗯️ 14:10, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

• I know the entire thing is a bit of a long read, but I would like to note that Bgsu98's tendency to make XFDs without any regard for GNG/BASIC - even for those where GNG/BASIC is met (1, 2, 3) - dates back to May 2022. In fact, last year I issued a warning on their talk page (which they then deleted) that this issue was creating more work for editors, but this is still continuing as of late. There seems to be an IDHT issue with WP:NOTBURO. ミラP@Miraclepine 02:19, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
• Alright, trying to defuse the situation more. @Bgsu98: It appears that MC has been able to provide at least two examples for which there are multiple examples of potentially significant coverage in reliable sources independent of the subject. And another user has identified at least 3 other AfDs in which sources were quickly found by other users. Yes, some of them (such as MC's examples) were found by Google searching the non-Latin alphabet version of the subject's name, but nothing in BEFORE suggests that searching only the subject's Latin name is appropriate. And it appears that these sources are all found with a quick Google search of the subject's name in the non-Latin script. Can you explain why you did not find these sources, or why, if you did find these sources, you did not identify them at the AfD discussion and/or did not consider them sufficient for GNG? -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 04:51, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

What do you think of the limitations on nominating articles that User:Bgsu98 already stated they were willing to adopt? It's higher up in this discussion. Liz 05:17, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

I spent a good 30-45 minutes reading this discussion before I made my first comment attempting to defuse this. I do not think that a voluntary restriction is going to be a good thing here, unless it is given the enforceability that a consensus here can give. I initially was concerned that EC was making this report with a poor understanding of BEFORE. But given that EC (and another editor) has/have now provided multiple examples of Google searches that show, at least at first glance, one or more sources that meet GNG for their related articles, I think there is ample evidence that Bgsu98 is violating BEFORE. I don't particularly care why they're violating BEFORE, but I would support waiting for their explanation regardless.If Bgsu98 is unable to provide any legitimate explanation for the at least 3 cases that have been identified now as having clear sources in the searches required by BEFORE, I would support a restriction on nominating articles for deletion in any way (PROD or AfD, or otherwise) since they cannot be trusted to follow BEFORE before they do so.All of that said, I think this should be moved to a subsection - starting with EC and Miraclepine's reports of specific cases. I stepped in as what you may call an inclusionist, thinking I'd be in support of sanctions immediately, but this is a complicated situation, and to be blunt, everything above my comment seems to have led nowhere. At the same time, I support giving Bgsu98 a chance to respond explaining why their BEFORE search was sufficient, before any sanctions are issued. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 05:24, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

I've provided some 20 examples as well. JTtheOG (talk) 05:36, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

I would say: "Not before Bgsu98 goes through all his previous nominations and his PRODs and searches for sources for them." He probably deleted (okay, "nominated") hundreds of pages, he did enough damage and now should work on fixing it. --Moscow Connection (talk) 05:43, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

That's not too helpful right now, man. No one can be forced to do anything. JTtheOG (talk) 07:38, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

I don't propose to force anyone. But I have just came across a Sander.v.Ginkel unblock request and remembered how he was told to go through all the articles he had created and check/fix them before creating more. We have a similar situation here, I think. --Moscow Connection (talk) 07:45, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

Articles that should not have been deleted have been kept by consensus at AfD. This is how AfD works. They are in the exact same state that they were before they were nominated, perhaps even better by WP: HEY. No “damage” has occurred. Additionally, if you think an article has been deleted when it shouldn’t, it is your responsibility to bring your concerns to DRV. This does not change just because you made a thread at ANI. You do not get to pick and choose which policies apply to whom. HyperAccelerated (talk) 18:12, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

Bgsu has already agreed to limit their nominations to a couple a day. This is a far stricter constraint than what could have probably been reached by consensus. What more do you want? For reasons I don’t understand, your response to this is “the limit should be more like 0” without any grounding in policy. As I see it, Bgsu is plainly negotiating in good faith, while your behavior is bordering on bullying. HyperAccelerated (talk) 18:24, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

@HyperAccelerated has hit the nail on the head. This discussion should have been tossed immediately or at least closed down well before now. The early responses were that this was a content dispute not appropriate for ANI then the OP kept going with rapid fire posts and a few editors who appear to have a pre-existing axe to grind with @Bgsu98 revved it up into what it has become. As a side note it will be very interesting to see how the outstanding AFDs are adjudicated and by whom. Shrug02 (talk) 18:51, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

• Oppose any sanctions to Bgsu98. I did a spot-check of some of the more contentious AfDs and, honestly, the keep !votes did not provide a compelling argument to keep in any of those cases. As I mentioned to Moscow Connection above, for example, they provided six links to one of the subjects - and every single link was in the sports.ru domain which is not independent and does not establish notability for a Russian athlete. It's very unfortunate that so many editors here have expressed either distain for or fear of the AfD process, which is integral to the quality of this project and which I would heartily encourage more editors to participate in. And I can assure those people with misconceptions that many AfDs conclude with an article being kept or with no consensus - which is a de-facto keep. The sum of all human knowledge is a lofty goal. But one philosophical point I would ask extreme inclusionists to consider is that there is a difference between knowledge and data. AfD is a process whereby we distinguish between knowledge and data according to criteria - imperfect criteria surely but criteria - which we agreed to as participants in this project. We shouldn't be punishing a person for efficiently doing a hard job just because it's one that has a side-effect of upsetting people. Simonm223 (talk) 19:19, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

  In case it was not already clear I too Oppose sanctions against @Bgsu98. They should be given the chance to prove they will stick to their pledge to slow down on AFD nominations. Also sanctioning them will set a precedent for others who are unhappy with AFD proceeses and outcomes to seek similar sanctions against other nominators and could well have the effect of putting many people off participating in the process for fear of retribution when in fact it would be better if more people took part. Shrug02 (talk) 20:12, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

  Whereas I support some kind of restriction on the number of AFDs they can start per day. GiantSnowman 20:16, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

  I offered up self-imposed restrictions above, including the caveat that there would be no further skating nominations until the ones currently in the system work their way through. According to my log, my last nomination was January 7th. As more contentious AFD's can sometimes take up to a month to process, that should allow for sufficient time. Bgsu98 (Talk) 20:33, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

  To be fair, your log is regularly cleared, including your most recent nomination. JTtheOG (talk) 20:58, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

  Once an AFD is settled, I remove it. What's the problem? The log shows active AFD's only. Bgsu98 (Talk) 21:04, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

• How about Bgsu98 just agrees to not nominate more than, I don't know, two articles per day (based on their comment I am also fine with any limitations that the community requests in terms of numbers of nominations. Twenty per day seems awfully high; I was thinking more like two!) and we end the discussion? BeanieFan11 (talk) 21:02, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

  @BeanieFan11 I second this proposal. Shrug02 (talk) 21:20, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

  We should definitely end it. I'm not an admin but that seems more than fair. JTtheOG (talk) 21:46, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

  Two a day is fine by me. GiantSnowman 22:15, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

  • I think there should be a requirement for him to show some sources he has found. (In every nomination. If there aren't any, then a link to a Google search query can suffice.)
    Cause I've seen him lately on some figure skater articles in my watchlist, and I don't see him adding any references ever. It looks like his edits are purely technical. (As well as his nominations.) He doesn't really add to the encyclopedic content, just updates scores and changes the table formatting. (And nominates for deletion.)
    Does he ever search the net? That's the question. Has it happened even once that he wanted to delete an article and then found a source for it, added the source and went away? --Moscow Connection (talk) 21:29, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

    Wow. Mister "I would also like to note that I am polite" is again denigrating others' work, as if adding scores and formatting tables to meet Misplaced Pages's MOS is unimportant. "He doesn't really add to the encyclopedic content." Yep, very polite. Bgsu98 (Talk) 22:25, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

    At this point, I'm seriously starting to think Moscow Connection needs topic banned from AfD in general, if not the entire subject matter of these articles. MC has demonstrated an inability to edit collaboratively without resorting to personal attacks and demands. — The Hand That Feeds You: 17:40, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

    I am regrettably willing to support either of those sanctions against MC at this point. They’ve been warned multiple times about the possibility of a WP: BOOMERANG, and those warnings were not heeded. While I really want to assume good faith here, their behavior resembles WP: HOUNDING, following Bgsu from nomination to nomination and casting a copious amount of aspersions on this ANI thread. Even if some of the Keep votes provide legitimate sources, the act of following a user across many discussions and refbombing them (in at least one case, as described in the discussion below) is not acceptable. HyperAccelerated (talk) 00:50, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

  And, as I've said, one should also search in the skater's native language. And for Russian figure skaters, Google doesn't work, you need Yandex. (And Yandex is not good as a search engine, some effort is needed to find anything. The major sports websites have profiles for everyone, you need to find the needed profile and go from there. It sounds too complicated, but that's how it is.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 21:30, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

  • Also, he doesn't appear to know how to use the Internet Archive. The Matthias Bleyer article had a good reference, I found it in the archive. His nomination (Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Matthias Bleyer) doesn't mention the reference, like if it doesn't exist. Maybe he didn't even look at the references section. --Moscow Connection (talk) 22:10, 10 January 2025 (UTC)
  • What I mean is that he should be required to show some sources he has found and to explain why these sources do not suffice. (After all, if he nominates an article, then obviously he doesn't find the coverage sufficient.)
    There's always something. (Almost always.) But since he nominates mostly skaters who have finished their careers, the number of potential sources (news articles) found on the internet shouldn't be big. There are usually just a few. --Moscow Connection (talk) 22:10, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

    MC, you are rapidly digging a hole you will not be able to get out of. This incessant demands and aggressive comments are wearing thin, and if you do not stop you are likely to face WP:BOOMERANG sanctions yourself. — The Hand That Feeds You: 17:42, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

    @HandThatFeeds: Okay, okay, sorry! By the way, I didn't even have this page on my watchlist and was just waiting for the outcome. (I came here yesterday, and there were no new replies. So I thought that was all, everyone was just waiting for an admin closure. I, personally, had said everything I wanted, I didn't even have anything to add.)
    P.S. I just came here now because Bgsu98 have edited some of my Russian figure skater articles just now. (I'm not attacking him, he hasn't ever nominated even one article of mine for AfD. Maybe because I'm trying to add a source or two to them.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 04:25, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

  I think this would be reasonable. jp×g🗯️ 14:11, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

• I can see how Bgsu's nomination volume can be a problem, and support his voluntary limitations and promise to provide more thorough deletion rationales. At the same time, given the kinds of sources MC has produced as "evidence" of GNG at, e.g., Ievleva, I think his perception of our notability requirements is wildly out of line with the community's. As @Ravenswing pointed out in that AfD, MC basically repeatedly refdumped a bunch of interviews and couple-sentence mentions despite being informed of their ineligibility in contributing toward GNG, so if those are the kinds of sources they are bringing up now to demonstrate "nonexistent BEFORE searches" I am quite skeptical that the problem is as actionable as they claim. That, coupled with their broad disapproval (unawareness?) of our current NSPORT guidelines, makes me concerned about the notability of their own creations—are they also basing those articles on interviews and routine transactional blurbs? JoelleJay (talk) 18:53, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

  I've started to wonder the same thing: that if MC is either utterly unaware of relevant notability standards or (as I suspect is the case) utterly defiant of them, are they another Lugnuts or Dolovis, and their article creations full of NN subjects? Ultimately, I don't give a damn whether MC (or anyone else) likes or approves of Misplaced Pages's standards, but they have to comply with them all the same.

  In any event, I oppose any sanction or limitation on Bgsu. I am not sure when people got the idea that filing bulk AfDs was against policy, but they are very greatly mistaken if they do think that. ANI is not the proper venue for a community discussion on changing that policy, and I recommend the Village Pump. Ravenswing 23:42, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

  I came across this article today: Gleb Lutfullin. This was the state of the article MC left before another user (and regular contributor to FS articles) added some of the tables. There is also this one: Vladislav Dikidzhi. Bgsu98 (Talk) 01:05, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

  Hello. I've just noticed you edits to my articles and added some reliable sources.
  Sorry that I left the articles like that, but I'm not too interested in figure skating lately, I just saw the 2025 Russian Championships results and wanted to create some stubs for some new "figure skating stars". (Back in the days, other users, ones who know how to format all the tables, would come and do everything. Just a blink of an eye, and there's a lengthy article — competitive highlights, music, everything. But now I can't see anyone. Maybe they are upset by the changes to NSKATE and stopped working on Wiki.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 04:11, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

  I have added simply terrific sources everywhere. (Everyone has a full-fledged biography on a big media site.) --Moscow Connection (talk) 06:39, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

  I simply searched "Глеб Лутфуллин 2004" on Google.com. and this came out on the first page. You posted here instead of simply googling.
  P.S. I know that this article is not my proudest moment. But I don't really edit figure skating articles lately and I have never been active much in this topic. Not on the English Misplaced Pages, anyway. --Moscow Connection (talk) 10:33, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

  There is no such thing as 'your' articles, see WP:OWN. GiantSnowman 10:46, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

  Also that source is very dubious. Look at their about page. Notice that they have a Guinness World Records Certificate image there? It's not got the official Guinness world records logo and there are errors in how the numbers are notated on it. Which suggests this newspaper has a fake Guinness world record cert on their about page. So, yeah, not very reliable. Simonm223 (talk) 19:12, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  Hello! First of all, I must explain that I only came to that nomination because Berchanhimez asked me to find some examples of Bgsu98 not doing any WP:BEFORE research. So I went to Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Skating and looked at the current nominations. I am very sorry if I "dumped" a lot of "bad" sources on that AfD page, but I simply wanted to show everything that I had found. And I believe that it is advisable that Bgsu98 does something like this in his future nominations. Like: "Look what I have found on Google. This, this. this. I believe it's not enough and the skater is not notable. Now let's discuss."
  P.S. At first, I wanted to find some of his old nominations of some really big names, but I didn't know how to find them. So that's what I did, I came to the current ones. (I looked at some figure skating championships articles, but there were no red links. It seems that, after an article gets deleted, he or someone else deletes all the links to it.)
  P.P.S. I should probably be advised to retire from this discussion. Cause I'm being attacked already. And it looks like some people are already advising me to go away. So I'm going away. I'm still hoping something good will come of this. --Moscow Connection (talk) 10:33, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

  I think this is good of you. You’ve provided your examples, and it’s now up to others to decide whether they are examples of violations of BEFORE or not. Thank you for refocusing your comments on specific examples rather than the back and forth that was going on.

  I tend to agree that BEFORE should not be a private thing. If someone does a BEFORE and finds nothing, stating such is good. But if they find borderline or a bunch of insignificant coverage, then providing at least examples of that in the nomination with a short explanation as to why they do not consider them valid goes to show they actually did a BEFORE.

  I don’t think a voluntary restriction on number of AfDs is enough to assuage the fact that the nomination statements are short and don’t address the sources that should be found during a BEFORE. But hopefully a limit of two per day will result in better nomination statements that address more borderline sources.

  At this point it doesn’t seem there’s any appetite for sanctions, and I think MC has been explained why many of the sources they have found don’t qualify for GNG. So maybe a closure with no action overall, and hopefully going forward less nominations at a time will result in more discussion in those nominations so that issues over why the sources found aren’t adequate can occur on each individual nomination. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 17:58, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

• Is this another one of those things where between the people who spend dozens of hours a week on enforcing policies and making up new policies and arguing about how to modify policies look down our noses at the people who "merely" write/edit articles when they are confused that the rules they laboriously followed for years have been randomly changed without even their knowledge, let alone their consensus? jp×g🗯️ 14:01, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  No, it's more like a dispute between someone sending a bunch of articles to AfD because they lacked proper sourcing, and a fan of those articles throwing everything they can at the wall to try and "save" those articles, while smearing the person who sent them to AfD. — The Hand That Feeds You: 17:28, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  Never mind what I said uptopic, JPxG: policies and guidelines change, from time to time. Always have, always will, and neither yours, mine nor anyone else's personal approval are a precondition of ratifying them. It is incumbent upon editors to stay abreast of such changes if they're engaged in ongoing article creation, but at any rate, they're not exempted from them. Leaving aside that the GNG and SIGCOV have been around for many years now, the changes in NSPORTS are a few years old themselves.

  In any event, you surely can't be advocating that the most productive way to handle being in this situation is to kick, scream, and rail against the injustice of it all, as opposed to "Gosh, sorry, I didn't know. I'll go read those guidelines now, and conform hereafter." Ravenswing 22:53, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  • @JPxG: That's a good observation! :-)
    But what I wanted to do here on ANI is to stop just one particularly active editor who mass-nominates articles for deletion without doing a WP:BEFORE search. His actions are bot-like, and his AfD nominations usually receive one or two bot-like "delete" votes. We may as well just delete all the articles that are now outside of WP:NSKATE. It will be more fair than imitating an AfD process.
    P.S. I do appreciate the people who work on AfD and put their time in reviewing the nominations. I see that some of Bgsu98's nominations do end in a "keep" thanks to those hard-working people. But there are many more that would have been kept if a proper web search was done.
    P.S. I really can't participate in this ANI thread anymore, cause I have tried to comment on some AfD nominations and what I've got are just accusations of disrupting/sabotaging the process. --Moscow Connection (talk) 01:45, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

    Okay, that's enough. This is just more aspersions thrown at Bgsu98, even after all the attempts above to get Moscow to disengage. I think Moscow needs a topic ban from AfD, and a one-way IBAN with Bgsu9. — The Hand That Feeds You: 18:48, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

    The only thing I see about Bgsu98 in that comment is But what I wanted to do here on ANI is to stop just one particularly active editor who mass-nominates articles for deletion without doing a WP:BEFORE search. His actions are bot-like. That's certainly a valid view of the nominations. BeanieFan11 (talk) 18:55, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

    Support TBAN and IBAN: My hand's kind of forced here. As I stated above, I really, really didn't want to do this. However, calling other people's behavior "bot-like" without evidence is a pretty serious aspersion, and MC has been warned many times to drop the stick at this point. This is the final straw for me. These read like veiled accusations, and while MC might come here and claim that I'm misunderstanding them, I just can't give the benefit of the doubt after witnessing this consistent pattern of misbehavior. HyperAccelerated (talk) 04:49, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

    • First, you invite me to AfD (that I do not normally visit), then, when I do drop by, you don't like my comments and want to make me banned from there. That's unpolite, to say the least. And what IBAN, fgs? I swear I didn't even know who this Bgsu98 user was until a few days ago.
      My hand's kind of forced here. — That's just strange. You are not an admin. Do you have some anger issues? I think it is you and HyperAccelerated who need a ban from ANI and an IBAN from interacting with me because I have never seen you in my life and you are attacking me all of a sudden.
      P.S. I hope this will be my last comment here. --Moscow Connection (talk) 05:40, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

    Do you have some anger issues? And now you're casting aspersions, which is absolutely not a good look on top of everything else here. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 05:55, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

    @The Bushranger: I am very, very sorry. I didn't know that could be seen as "aspersions" that weren't allowed. They have also casted "aspersions" saying that I was trying to harrass Bgsu98 and sabotage the AfD process. When in fact, I just posted to ANI and never talked to Bgsu98 elsewhere. So I just wanted to reply to them in a similar manner. That was stupid of me.
    As for my "disruption" at AfD, I simply searched for sources and showed everything I have found. (That's how I usually search for sources, sorry. This time I didn't even try to go through all the 100 pages of Google results.)
    JPxG said that this was "one of those things" between people who enforce policies and the people who write articles. But it looks like some people who are attacking me are wikignomes who make minor edits. And when they saw one billion sources I had dumped at one AfD, they didn't understand.
    P.S. I hope I didn't say anything wrong again. I sincerely promise that I will never return to this discussion. Sorry for the inconvenience I have caused. --Moscow Connection (talk) 07:22, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

    I also don't think ignorance is an acceptable excuse for these kinds of comments at this point. As Ravenswing pointed out above (comment), you've been here for fifteen years. You should be more than familiar with the guidelines for civility by now. I also issued a warning that your behavior was becoming sanction-worthy here, and Hand also issued a warning here. AfD requires users to resolve disagreements over whether to keep or discuss articles in a civil manner. Given MC's aspersion that I have "anger issues" and the refbombing at this AfD of Bgsu's, I have serious doubts as to whether they can be an effective participant in AfDs. HyperAccelerated (talk) 13:52, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

    • I really, really didn't want to do this. However, calling other people's behavior "bot-like" without evidence is a pretty serious aspersion – HyperAccelerated: would you say that mass nominating fifty different articles for deletion in half as many minutes with the exact same one-sentence rationale is not bot-like? BeanieFan11 (talk) 16:25, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

      Not entirely. I think it can be done by hand in that span of time, albeit it's a bit tedious. The use of "bot-like" in this context is questionable at best and objectionable at worst. But, regardless of whether you agree with my interpretation of this remark, I'm more concerned about a broader pattern of misbehavior coming from MC. We should not mistake the forest for the trees. HyperAccelerated (talk) 17:43, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

    • @Liz: Can this be stopped, please? I've said everything I wanted to say and went away from this discussion, but HandThatFeeds and HyperAccelerated are still attacking me and are writing something strange in bold font. It looks like they have highjacked this discussion and are leading it to some very unusual outcome.
      P.S. I've actually found out how I "first met" Bgsu98 and I've posted my findings here on ANI, but then I deleted that post: . (I'm sorry, but Bgsu98's name looked to me like something from a random character generator. And I don't remember every sequence of characters I see on the internet. :-)) --Moscow Connection (talk) 05:40, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

    • On ANI, when things aren't going your way, you don't get to say "please stop the discussion". Everyone's conduct is open to discussion here - including yours, and are writing something strange in bold font, when the only "bold font" used by (one of) them is the (very obvous) !vote to topic-ban you, is concerning. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 05:55, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

WITHDRAWN Probably being a bit too zealous here on the whole civility thing, so closing this before I feed the fire any more. (WP:TROUT me, I've become the very editor I swore to fight) Allan Nonymous (talk) 03:52, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

WP:BOOMERANG TBAN for Moscow Connection

Uninvolved editor here. I don't know much about WP:NSKATE technicalities that brought this issue here. What I do know is that Moscow Connection conduct on here is clearly over the line, and suggests an inability to follow WP:NPA that suggests an inability to participate at AfD and a poor understanding of our deletion policy. Hence, I propose a topic ban from AfD. A word of personal advice for the user in question. If you have discovered new sources for an article previously deleted, first ask for an article to be restored to your user page, then improve the article, and then submit it through AfC. Allan Nonymous (talk) 17:56, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

• Oppose. This would be for a grand total of three "incorrect" AFD !votes. That's it. Three. (1 / 2 / 3). Topic-banning an editor because there were three AFDs where they provided sources that were insufficient, whereas we have an editor at this discussion who was nominating potentially notable articles (and many notable articles) en masse without any search whatsoever, which included 50 AFDs in half as many minutes, is utterly ludicrous. This discussion should have been closed a long time ago with no action, or, if anything, a restriction on Bgsu98. BeanieFan11 (talk) 18:15, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

• Oppose. While they have at times been obtuse in this ANI thread, they do not seem to have done any actual harm outside of it. I am opposed to the existence of a "thunderdome" area where people get summoned to do combat, yelled at by a dozen people for several days, and then banned if they happen to get mad during this.

jp×g🗯️ 21:20, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

• Oppose. Even I think this is unnecessary at this point. Bgsu98 (Talk) 21:28, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose. The user is highly passionate about the subject. That’s great - and to be quite blunt, we should be encouraging that. The user identified a problematic behavior (rapid AfD nominations that did not appear, at first, to be BEFOREd properly). From what I’ve seen, those issues have been resolved - both by the user reported agreeing to slow down on their nominations and explain them better, as well as by the MC realizing that many of the coverages they’ve found are borderline at best for determining notability.

This thread got out of hand because people didn’t focus on the issue at hand. And I broadly agree with jpxg above - when rather than trying to refocus the thread people just pile on someone who made a good faith report, of course they’ll get a bit mad and make some mistakes that are borderline NPA/civility violations. But ask yourself this - is recommending a BOOMERANG for a problem that’s resolved not inflaming the situation more? -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 21:30, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

• Oppose As @BeanieFan11 said this discussion should have been closed a long time ago. @Moscow Connection has been very uncivil at times on this thread and others, particularly in their language and questioning of other editors' motives and abilities, but hopefully they will learn from what has been said during this discussion and will not repeat this behaviour. I was in favour of giving @Bgsu98 a chance and I do not want to be hypocritical by not doing so with MC too.

Shrug02 (talk) 22:07, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Jaozinhoanaozinho and persistant WP:SYNTH, WP:PROFRINGE, and WP:GNG-failing articles

User:Jaozinhoanaozinho has been creating articles on portuguese history for a while now. They seem to be a competent writer, but their understanding of WP:GNG and WP:SYNTH seems to be lacking substantially.

• Danish expedition to North America was deleted for WP:PROFRINGE

• Da Serra–American conflict on WP:GNG and WP:SYNTH grounds

• Portuguese Newfoundland on WP:PROFRINGE and WP:OR

• They've been warned about creating hoax articles and continued doing so.

• Warned for copyright issues which also still persist in articles (see now removed references in Potato Revolt)

• Plenty of articles containing only one source Siege of Campar, Battle of Cape Coast (1562), Battle of Lucanzo (1590), Portudal–Joal Massacre, Battle of the Gambia River (1570), Battle of Mugenga

Most recently there's Battle of Naband, which contains two sources and the only one easily accessible never mentions any Battle of Naband and indeed mentions the Naband itself only twice in the book. I've AFDd four of their last five or so articles in a row, with three now deleted.

Battle of Naband is my last article of theirs I'm AFDing. I tried bringing this up with them but it doesn't appear to have gone anywhere and I don't want to WP:WIKIHOUND someone for mass creating low-quality articles. They're a competent writer but I feel that a time out from article creation without oversight may be helpful for everyone here. With the inscrutible sourcing and the repeated defense of a WP:PROFRINGE article above it's pretty impossible for inexpert editors to know if what's being presented is legit or not without sources or verifiability. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 10:27, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

Sadly I have to support this. They simply don't have a grasp of our policies and guidelines despite all the AfDs where they've been discussed. Doug Weller talk 10:44, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

I checked this Battle of Naband which is at Afd. It wasn't a battle and hasn't been named as such by any historian. A small engagement at best. The sources are problematic, very very slim. I could only find a couple of small paras in a single source that seems to come from a single verbal report. I think they should all be draftified to be checked and any future work sent to draft. I couldn't find Naband? scope_creep 12:02, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

Hello, here's my response regarding the issues raised:

• 1) While I understand that the Luso-Danish expedition theory is not widely accepted, similar fringe theories, such as the "Theory of the Portuguese discovery of Australia," are allowed to remain on Misplaced Pages. I suggested adjustments to the article title and additional citations during our earlier discussion, but those suggestions were not incorporated.
• 2) I still believe the topic is notable, even though it isn't widely discussed. I maintain that there is no issue with synthesis as the article does not present conclusions that aren't directly supported by the sources.
• 3) I agree with the decision to delete the article in question, as I did not do my research properly, turns out it was not a colony or long standing controlled territory.
• 4) I have never created a hoax article (Correction: Besides "Portuguese Newfoundland). The warning I received 10 months ago was for an article I translated from the Portuguese Misplaced Pages.
• 5) I typically do this when the sources used do not provide page numbers, and it can be difficult for others to verify specific information.
• 6) Many of the articles in question were created when I was beginning to edit on Misplaced Pages. I don’t mind improving research quality.
• 7) The article now cites four sources, and there are additional mentions of the engagement in other books, I just didn’t cite all of them.

Additionally, I’ve noticed that you’ve consistently targeted my articles for deletion. While you have assured me that you're not trying to pressure me, it still feels as though there is a disproportionate focus on my work. I also noticed that you often skip over maintenance templates and go straight to nomination for deletion, even when the articles do not seem to have significant issues. A recent example would be the "Baloch-Portuguese conflicts". Jaozinhoanaozinho (talk) 12:35, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

I’ve noticed that you’ve consistently targeted my articles for deletion. While you have assured me that you're not trying to pressure me, it still feels as though there is a disproportionate focus on my work.

I addressed this above, it's a tricky thing to strike a balance between WP:WIKIHOUNDING and "This editor constantly makes articles that need oversight", which is why I brought this to ANI and said it'd be the last article of yours I AFD. It wasn't my intent to make you feel surveilled, though, which is why I called attention to that pattern of mine in the ANI itself.

I also noticed that you often skip over maintenance templates and go straight to nomination for deletion, even when the articles do not seem to have significant issues.

Considering that these articles have, for the most part, been deleted, I don't think it's fair to summarize them as needing maintainence templates. Something that fails WP:GNG doesn't need a maintanence template if it's never going to pass WP:GNG and believe me, I am actually looking for sources before I nominate. It's actually why, for example

A recent example would be the "Baloch-Portuguese conflicts".

I didn't AFD this one, but instead raised it on your talk page. That seemed to have WP:SYNTH issues but was much less cut and dry, so I reached out directly instead of AFDing it. I'm not going to maintenance-tag a page that may simply never pass WP:GNG before establishing that, because it risks wasting editors time. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 12:51, 12 January 2025 (UTC)

• The single-source articles probably need to go to AfD as well. There are literally no hits for a "Battle of Cape Coast", "Battle of Lucanzo", and a "Portudal–Joal Massacre" (and they are not referred to as such in the single source that is in the article). There is little doubt that these minor skirmishes occurred (so they're not hoaxes), but they don't appear to be notable either. They sound like information that should be included in a wider article about the topics involved. Black Kite (talk) 17:33, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
• Based upon their comments here and at the various AfD's, I do not believe Jaozinhoanaozinho understands the problematic nature of their articles, nor do they apparently understand the original research policy. I propose and support a ban from article creation until, after gaining substantially more experience improving pre-existing articles without violating WP:OR, they gain that necessary understanding/competence. JoJo Anthrax (talk) 20:11, 12 January 2025 (UTC)
• SUPPORT ban from article creation. Doug Weller talk 09:06, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
• Support a ban from article creation. I checked a couple more of them over the weekend. I'm not keen to see any more of these non-articles made in that manner. scope_creep 09:34, 13 January 2025 (UTC)
• Support article creation ban. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 19:35, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

WP:SOCK. - The Bushranger One ping only 23:21, 17 January 2025 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Support Ban. Sr. Blud (talk) 15:54, 14 January 2025 (UTC) I think he also knows these are just theories. He is doing this for being extented confirmed user with Gaming the system. Sr. Blud (talk) 15:57, 14 January 2025 (UTC) There is only one article I created that is based on theories, and I made it clear that fringe theories are acceptable on Misplaced Pages as long as they adhere to the guidelines. I also asked for specific changes to improve the article, but my requests were ignored. I don't understand the sudden accusation of “gaming the system". Could you please specify which of my edits were allegedly made with the intent of gaining a higher user status? What personal theories have I supposedly pushed, or what specific actions have I taken to exploit the system for recognition? I would appreciate clarification. Jaozinhoanaozinho (talk) 01:29, 15 January 2025 (UTC) Why would they ignore your request? That's would be ridicilous?! Sr. Blud (talk) 15:42, 15 January 2025 (UTC) I think it's not quite fair to say they were ignored, more there was a discussion that the fringe article was never going to be acceptable, as opposed to having specific issues that could be addressed. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 16:48, 15 January 2025 (UTC) I dunno. Sr. Blud (talk) 16:51, 15 January 2025 (UTC) Please refrain from commenting on discussions you haven't read. Additionally, this user is a known sockpuppeteer. Jaozinhoanaozinho (talk) 20:54, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

• Comment I think my needle has moved a wee bit to left re: Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Battle of Lucanzo (1590). There is genuine reason here and I don't think its gaming the system. In this case it was a battle, but again, the source are very very slim. scope_creep 08:55, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

I don't think the editor is capable of evaluating sources correctly and he should still be banned. scope_creep 09:25, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

I didn't create the article you've referenced? Jaozinhoanaozinho (talk) 20:46, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Ignore (I didn't mean to reply to this specific comment) Jaozinhoanaozinho (talk) 20:49, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

• Comment This is editor is still creating dog poor articles Cult Member. This is the second in days thats been speedied. scope_creep 19:20, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

  I didn't create the article you've referenced? Jaozinhoanaozinho (talk) 20:47, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

• Note that Sr. Blud is now blocked as a sockpuppet. Doug Weller talk 17:02, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

User:Jwa05002 and User:RowanElder Making Ableist Comments On WP:Killing of Jordan Neely Talk Page, Threats In Lead

RowanElder has apologised and their comments have been explained. Jwa05002 ignored the first law of holes and has been indef'd with TPA revoked. Looks like we're done here. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 21:49, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

This occurred on the Killing of Jordan Neely, on the talk page section of Talk:Killing of Jordan Neely#Threats in the lead. @RowanElder decided they could say I couldn't ask for civility in a discussion after it became what I found uncivil. This discussion was already ended. They made comments that I couldn't ask for civility because apparently my userpage was uncivil. They then proceeded to say it was fine because I wasn't acting in bad faith but rather just being Autistic and incompetent because they saw I mentioned I was Autistic on my page and then linked to the competence required article. (Personal attack removed) and then went on a rant about how Misplaced Pages shouldn't allow "severely mentally ill people edit" and how it's sad that Misplaced Pages has devolved to it. RowanElder then proceeded to say it's fine and the admins would instead give me special help. I shouldn't need to say more really. Akechi The Agent Of Chaos (talk) 06:19, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Oh forgot to @Jwa05002 Akechi The Agent Of Chaos (talk) 06:24, 13 January 2025 (UTC) (Personal attack removed)

• Akechi - typically, linking to specific WP:DIFFS rather than talk page sections is the best thing to do when making an ANI report; that is, linking and , which I assume are the comments you're referring to. Procedural niceties aside, I think you have a right to be upset - the comment by Jwa05002 seems to reflect a very ugly attitude toward mental illness, and RowanElder's remarks are incredibly patronizing - I don't think the comment in which they say I hope Misplaced Pages can perhaps follow best practices from special education experts to deal with ways they may try to participate with disruptive incompetence. It's certainly not a personal attack to try to get people help, even when they take it as such and even react violently against the help as if it were an attack. could have been more perfectly calculated to infuriate its target if that were their intention, and when they commented ...you're probably deliberately victimizing people who share your struggle. It's sad to see, but again, I'm assuming good faith and I'm sympathetic rather than insulting here it does not at all come across like someone who is AGFing. I hope the community will agree that the conduct of these two users is not acceptable and make that clear to them. Hatman31 (he/him · talk · contribs) 07:10, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  Who would have more relevant expertise than special education experts, here? Honestly? In dealing with good faith but disruptive contributions to something a lot like classwork?

  Please assume good faith for me as well, here. RowanElder (talk) 07:29, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  You cannot substitute your personal experience for reliable sources, nor can you analyze other editors, and especially you cannot resort to personal attacks such as disruptive incompetence. — The Hand That Feeds You: 18:37, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  I am definitely confused about this.

  First, I have seen and been told "competence is required" many times and I generally assumed good faith constructive criticism and policy enforcement there rather than that the person invoking "competence is required" was making a personal attack. I have had a lot of trouble understanding what is regarded as incivility and not in this community.

  Second, it seems prima facie that editors do analyze one another frequently, for instance I was just analyzed and will be further analyzed in this incident notice discussion so long as it continues, so I am confused what you mean here. RowanElder (talk) 20:14, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  WP:CIR is an evaluation only when users have demonstrated repeated inability to edit collaboratively due to either refusal to read the rules, or inability comprehend them. It's not a blanket for you to insult a user by stating their edits are disruptive incompetence.

  Your second point is rhetorical wordplay, and does not reflect well on you. Knock it off. — The Hand That Feeds You: 19:04, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

  I don't understand this and I'm not doing wordplay. I'm genuinely confused. But I'll knock it off anyway; I'm going to take a break. RowanElder (talk) 23:39, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

  As a disabled person who currently works in special education, there are many reasons we wouldn't want "special education experts" (or their suggestions) dispatched to deal with a Certain Kind of Contributor. For one, it's a bit patronizing as described above--why do certain editors have to be dealt with under certain different people or rules? It's also worth noting that a lot of special education professionals, even ones who believe they're doing good things, often adopt practices that can be hurtful or problematic--this is all anecdotal, of course, but a number of my coworkers will miss very obvious potential causes of student distress just because they don't get distressed by the same thing, and at least one of my other coworkers was directly ableist to another of my coworkers behind her back without even realizing that's what she was doing. If there's anyone who can speak to best practices about interaction it's probably people with the disability in question (i.e. the Nothing about us without us stance), but to be honest, in practice, Misplaced Pages's existing guidelines and policies regarding user interaction and editing do a pretty good job of setting the ground rules and describing what you need to do to edit collaboratively in a productive way. - Purplewowies (talk) 19:58, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  My comments did not communicate my intent well to this community, and I have apologized for that. I recognize these concerns, and if I had written longer comments, adding these concerns would have been among my first extensions of what I wrote. I was disruptively incompetent when it came to speaking to the sensitivities in this community. RowanElder (talk) 20:07, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

(0) The discussion had seemed inconclusive to me rather than ended. My prior experience as an editor has been mostly on pages where weeks can go between talk messages easily, so if this was a mistake it was a newcomer's mistake of not understanding the different tempo on this page.

(1) I did not say @Akechi The Agent Of Chaos could not ask for civility; I did find it ironic that they would ask for civility given that their userpage at that time seemed quite uncivil. I do think this indicates incompetence at judging civility and incivility and I, possibly erroneously, did not think it would be an aspersion or personal attack to say so on the basis of the immediate and policy-relevant (disruptive editing policy, explained by "competence is required") evidence. There is a "competence is required" principle and I have seen it invoked without violating the "no personal attacks" policy, though I'll be first to admit I don't understand the lines there very well.

(2) I did not endorse or "go along with" @Jwa05002's characterization of @Akechi The Agent Of Chaos as schizophrenic: I passed over it in silence trying "not to take the bait" of what could have easily become personal attacks (not that I thought @Jwa05002 was making a personal attack there, more like personally despairing of the challenge of finding consensus about reality with self-identified schizophrenics and autistics). I flatly disagreed with @Jwa05002 that "this is what Misplaced Pages has become."

(3) I do endorse a general principle that when mental illness compromises an editor's competence, they should not edit Misplaced Pages in the domains in which they are thereby incompetent. I do believe "competence is required" and I don't know why mental illness would possibly be an exception. (I can't imagine what fun I might have had editing in the archaeoastronomy area recently if Misplaced Pages did allow that exception!)

(4) I do hope that the admins and arbs and the community as a whole will figure out good, humane best practices for dealing with mentally ill editors on Misplaced Pages. RowanElder (talk) 07:19, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

I'd like everyone to everyone to note point 4, I think we should note the "humane best practices for dealing with mentally ill editors on Misplaced Pages" part. Akechi The Agent Of Chaos (talk) 07:36, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Should Misplaced Pages deal inhumanely with the mental ill? What is going on here? I am extremely lost. RowanElder (talk) 07:41, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

You cannot diagnose other people as mentally ill. That is a direct personal attack and can result in you being sanctioned. — The Hand That Feeds You: 18:38, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Yes, of course: I did not call anyone mentally ill much less diagnose anyone. I pointed out that an editor self-identified as autistic without intending that to be an attack. And I won't even do that again, since "assuming good faith" is not extending to "assuming that references to mental illness are not necessarily attacks." Probably correctly, in retrospect for me! But the "assume good faith" policy has been something I've myself been incompetent to understand in its community-consensus application so far on Misplaced Pages, and so I was disruptively incompetent and I've both apologized for that and said I would avoid doing it again. RowanElder (talk) 19:56, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

The user in question has described themselves as schizophrenic in previous posts. Schizophrenia by definition is a mental illness.

Schizophrenia Jwa05002 (talk) 20:15, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

No I didn't you are thinking of another user I will not name. Akechi The Agent Of Chaos (talk) 23:51, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

(edit conflict) (but I did the work, so I'm posting it) (Non-administrator comment) OP, you should provide diffs. You did link to the conversation, but every specific instance of untowardness you mention should be cited directly, as a courtesy to the admins' time. But I read the whole conversation and don't like it, so I did some legwork for you. They then proceeded to say it was fine because I wasn't acting in bad faith but rather just being Autistic. This edit was amended. Jwa proceeded to come in and say I was a schizophrenic. RowanElder then proceeded to say it's fine and the admins would instead give me special help.

I view assuming an autistic person's edits to be a result of incompetence to not actually be WP:AGF, but I defer. I don't know that this warrants being at ANI or if it's just bad behavior, but the schizophrenia thing certainly deserves an apology from both of them. I'm not involved. Just providing diffs. POST EDIT CONFLICT: I also don't buy Rowan's argument that they weren't going along with the schizophrenia thing. closhund/talk/ 07:23, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

"You don't buy it"? Where is the assumption of good faith here? RowanElder (talk) 07:30, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

I did not generically assume "an autistic person's edits to be a result of incompetence" but specifically suggested that their social judgment about particular incivility was incompetent in this case. I would never do the former, and frankly it is an aspersion to suggest I did. RowanElder (talk) 07:37, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Are you saying I or other Autistic people for that matter can't pass social judgement? Akechi The Agent Of Chaos (talk) 07:50, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

No. I thought you had already made a poor social judgment and I was looking for a good faith explanation that would not be a personal attack. I thought that, if you are really up front about your autism like on your userpage, then you would not feel being called autistic would be an insult. I would never have speculated about it if you were not already identified and I thought it was a misjudgment before I read your userpage. RowanElder (talk) 08:12, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

You obviously have never met an Autistic person because calling someone out their disability and going "but don't worry though your just Autistic so you didn't do it in bad faith or anything". You don't think that sounds patronising or rude, you just didn't like my social judgement and saw my disability as a way to excuse yourself. Akechi The Agent Of Chaos (talk) 08:16, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

"You obviously have never met an Autistic person" is wildly uncivil, ungrounded, personal attack. I am really lost here. RowanElder (talk) 08:18, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Sorry I didn't give diffs I'm kinda new to this stuff. Thank you for putting in the effort as well. Akechi The Agent Of Chaos (talk) 07:38, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

• Akechi The Agent Of Chaos, you are revealing a lot of personal information here about other editors that might need to be revision deleted. Please do not do that in the future. There are a lot of BLP violations in this discussion so far and assumptions about "mental illness" as well that are distressing to see from other editors. But, Akechi, I also notice that you are spending all of your talk on your User page and talk pages like Talk:Killing of Jordan Neely instead of editing to improve articles. Your own User page states I'd rather not edit Misplaced Pages and rather just discuss disputes, move requests and talk about usage of sources or claims of bias, I'm not very good at source editing which is not a good sign for an editor on this project. Jwa05002 is also spending all of their time on Talk:Killing of Jordan Neely so maybe you both could use a partial block from this talk page. Liz 07:36, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  I wouldn't mind that actually, also please do remove the mentions of me saying who the user who had schizophrenia was, I realise now that it's not my place to talk about. Akechi The Agent Of Chaos (talk) 07:40, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  I am also looking to get into editing articles, though I do not have the time to be a full time editor. Akechi The Agent Of Chaos (talk) 07:42, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

• Those comments by @RowanElder and @Jwa05002 are beyond the pale. Stating that mental illness or neurodivergence is a WP:CIR issue should never be tolerated, particularly given it's highly likely that a lot of our community are neurodiverse or mentally ill. Blocks should follow for both editors. TarnishedPath 07:43, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

It's also surreal to see the comments about autism in this discussion, you do know, I hope, that we have probably hundreds of active editors on this project that are autistic or are on the spectrum. It's not rare to be an autistic editor on Misplaced Pages. Not everyone chooses to put that fact on their User page but that doesn't erase their presence. Liz 07:44, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Given that the editors seem a lot more interested in arguing on talk pages, I'd suggest there's some WP:NOTHERE going on. TarnishedPath 07:51, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

I made exactly this point that there are a lot on Misplaced Pages in one of my comments about a likely unintended consequence of @Akechi The Agent Of Chaos's incivility on their userpage, which, I quote, included "I really hope that upsets some of the weirder users of this site." RowanElder (talk) 07:53, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

The full quote is "I Autistic and pansexual (I really hope that upsets some of the weirder users of this site.).". And clearly being Autistic upset a couple of people. Akechi The Agent Of Chaos (talk) 07:54, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

And no the lack of am is not a typo. Akechi The Agent Of Chaos (talk) 07:56, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Please assume good faith! Autism did not upset me and nor did pansexuality. But "I hope I upset people who do not share my values" cannot possibly be civil discourse. RowanElder (talk) 07:57, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

It's not my values it's my existence, being Autistic or Pansexual isn't values, it's just how I am. Akechi The Agent Of Chaos (talk) 07:59, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

At Special:Diff/1269116979 you wrote: "I'm going to assume good faith and cite that user page: that this user is most likely a self-described autistic acting incompetently rather than in bad faith. Unfortunately, competence is required, see Misplaced Pages:Competence is required". I don't see any other interpretation for that than an act with malice directed towards a neurodiverse editor because of their neurodivergence. TarnishedPath 07:58, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

How about this: I was baffled by the level of incivility and I thought this would be an honorable way out of a bad look for Akechi, since I don't stigmatize the social blindness of the autistic? It was a horrible, horrible mistake but I thought that because autism is so well accepted here, including by myself, that this would be a place I could make a narrow recommendation: "hey, this matter of incivility is a social misjudgment of a kind that probably does have a good faith explanation." RowanElder (talk) 08:04, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

You are assuming I can't make social judgements, that seems uncivil to me. I have just same right to make social judgements as you do. Akechi The Agent Of Chaos (talk) 08:06, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

I was not assuming that you could not. I saw what I thought was a terrible misjudgment that @Jwa05002 was struggling to see in any good faith way and suggesting a way to recover good faith, but without excusing the brazen incivility I thought I saw. RowanElder (talk) 08:08, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

I did not say mental illness is in itself a WP:CIR issue. I said that, at times, particular mental illness will imply particular WP:CIR issues. What in the world is going on? RowanElder (talk) 07:55, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Jwa heavily implied and you didn't call him out. Akechi The Agent Of Chaos (talk) 07:57, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

I've quoted exactly what you said above just now. You don't have much wiggle room there. TarnishedPath 08:00, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Yes, autism is specifically correlated with social blindnesses. It's definitionally constitutive. That means that specifically for judgments of tone, like the one Akeshi was implicitly making, autism seemed relevant – and exculpatory! RowanElder (talk) 08:07, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

It's not social blindnesses it's a sometimes struggle to pick up on social cues (Autistic people display a range of symptoms and some differ), also cool you do think I can't make social judgements. Akechi The Agent Of Chaos (talk) 08:09, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Your ill-founded judgments aren't doing you any favours here. You should be offering an unreserved apology to Akechi and then having the good sense to shut up before someone starts a block discussion. TarnishedPath 08:10, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Clearly, it is not doing me favors and I am deeply deeply confused. I wouldn't know what to apologize for, at this point. RowanElder (talk) 08:20, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

For starters, for implying that an autistic editor was somehow less competent than other editors. I'm going to assume good faith that that may not have been your intent, but it's absolutely the way literally everybody else has taken it. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 08:25, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Thank you: I apologize completely for saying what I did in such a way that it was taken by everyone else as saying that an autistic editor was somehow less competent than other editors because they were autistic. RowanElder (talk) 08:29, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

(I repeated a variant of this apology below, more personally to @Akechi The Agent Of Chaos, and Akechi graciously accepted the apology there. Thanks again @The Bushranger.) RowanElder (talk) 08:46, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

• It seems to me that we are dealing with the intersection of two issues here. The content issue is that Jordan Neely was misbehaving severely on a subway car, and the intervention of Daniel Penny lead, quite sadly, to his death. Since Penny was acquitted, WP:BLP policy forbids Misplaced Pages editors from describing Penny as a "bad person" or implying guilt. The second issue is how editors should interact during content disputes with other editors who self-describe on their user page as autistic and having ADHD and being pansexual and an agent of chaos. Personally, I do not care about "pansexual" in the slightest because I could not care less what editors do or don't in bed or on the sofa (couch). Autistic editors and editors with ADHD are perfectly welcome to edit Misplaced Pages as long as they comply with our policies and behavioral guidelines, just as every other editor is expected to do. If I happened to state "I am not autistic" on my user page (which I don't), then I would not expect any harsher treatment for misconduct than another editor who claims to be autistic. Since all editors should be treated the same within reason, I do not see the benefit of these declarations. They are often perceived as a claim to preferential treatment, but editors are perfectly free to make such declarations as long as they understand that other editors are likely to read them and draw inferences, stated openly or not. As for the inherent declaration in their username that the editor is The Agent Of Chaos, I find that far more troubling than the other self-declarations. The most generous interpretation is that the editor is trying too hard to be ironic and amusing, like the new hipster pizzeria in my home town that actually makes great innovative pizzas. But combined with the other self-declarations, I am confronted with legitimate questions about what this editor's goals and intentions actually are here, and I should remind the editor that actual agents of chaos get blocked pretty promptly on Misplaced Pages. Cullen328 (talk) 07:59, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  Do you really think that me calling myself an Agent Of Chaos is a serious thing and not just a reference. Akechi The Agent Of Chaos (talk) 08:01, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  Like it's my name, I know there is an editor that has The Liar at the end of their username do we assume they are one. Akechi The Agent Of Chaos (talk) 08:05, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  I'm just stating my mental disabilities dude why is this a problem, are you gonna get mad at my userbox that says the same thing. Akechi The Agent Of Chaos (talk) 08:02, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  Akechi The Agent Of Chaos, I think that you have dug a hole for yourself, and instead of climbing out, you are digging ever deeper. In the simplest terms, this is a project to build an encyclopedia. Why should anyone reading this thread be reassured that you share that goal? Cullen328 (talk) 08:11, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  What does that have anything to do with this discussion other than you trying excuse others of wrongdoings. Akechi The Agent Of Chaos (talk) 08:13, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  @Akechi The Agent Of Chaos, the behaviour of all involved parties in under the microscope when you make reports here. TarnishedPath 08:15, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  Fair, I am getting into article editing, also how old is my account, what like a few months old, this is getting to WP:Please do not bite the newcomers stuff. This sounds like an excuse but I am trying to be a helpful member of the community and I'm kinda scared that I will mess things up with source editing. Akechi The Agent Of Chaos (talk) 08:18, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  I'm going to stop talking now. Akechi The Agent Of Chaos (talk) 08:19, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  For the admins' consideration, this reply is (I hope) partly because of me . So it sounds like they're willing to take advice. closhund/talk/ 08:26, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  If you want to be helpful, start copy editing articles or review the recent changes log looking for vandalism that needs reverting (make sure you set the filters appropriately) or anything that directly assists with the quality of articles. If you don't do at least something to help with building the project, it won't take long for others to decide that you are not here to build an encyclopaedia TarnishedPath 08:46, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  Thanks to Closhund's suggestions I actually started copy editing, it's not that scary anymore. I think I was just overwhelmed with editing massive cyclopedia. Akechi The Agent Of Chaos (talk) 08:49, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  This is an interesting point - I posted a userbox saying I have ADHD, along with liking videogames and cats, as I see it as a part of me that I absolutely hated for decades until I was diagnosed recently. I posted it as a way to perhaps ask for a little patience, as I might be more prone to long posts or changing my edits after having another thought or idea (impulse control is an issue with ADHD). In my case, I intended it as an explanation, not an excuse. I still really and expect to be treated the same as anyone else.

  Nevertheless, I angered someone earlier, who weaponised my ADHD and used it to claim I was incompetent and shouldn't be here. Quite a few admins were singled out in those posts, but they specifically focused on my ADHD for an inordinate amount of time. They were also cut and pasted into other people's Talk pages.

  Whilst I'm well aware this was a malicious user and am not ashamed of my ADHD, nor will I hide it (I've done that for far too long), I'm now thinking I should remove those boxes - this is the internet, you can't tell what other people are thinking and it's easy to misunderstand others.

  Neurodivergence is a relatively-new condition (compared to depression, anxiety etc. it's only really been accepted in the past few decades), so there are a lot of misunderstandings and stigma attached to it. The prevalence of self-diagnosis and misinformation on social media doesn't help, as there are those who do want attention and/or use it as an excuse.

  I'm not sure what I'm going to do to be honest. I might remove the userboxes since they're apparently doing more harm than good. I've got to work now, but I'll decide later & just wanted to put this view forward. Blue Sonnet (talk) 08:21, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  BTW Apologies if this is now off-topic, the thread was moving really fast! Blue Sonnet (talk) 08:26, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Blue Sonnet, userboxes are a personal decision you have to make. Just know that many editors don't make use of userboxes and could very well share interests and conditions with those editors who do post them. It's self-identification and that can change over time. I think the one thing you can't control is how editors who encounter a self-identification will perceive you. That fact has caused some editors to simply blank their User pages so they don't have to worry about how bits of data about themselves could lead to other editors' judging them. But other individuals want to put all of their cards on the table. It's your call and just know, you can change your mind about it any time you want. Liz 08:31, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

@Liz Exactly right - I was aware of the negative perception, but someone who's looking for a reason to dislike another person will usually pick up on stuff like that first since it's an easy target. My workplace has been incredibly supportive so I've been letting my guard down, but that's not really a good idea online. Plus the userboxes were all shiny & colourful so I headed straight for them without thinking!

I don't know if I'll keep the ADHD box since it may be doing more harm than good but the cat one will stay for now, since my furry demonic familiar demands it. Blue Sonnet (talk) 14:53, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

With due respect, Cullen, I very strongly disagree with you when you say "They are often perceived as a claim to preferential treatment". This in and of itself can be considered ableist in a way and arguably a failure to AGF. Since neurodivergent people are quite literally defined by their neurotypes, this is no more or less self-identifying than, for example, gender orientation declarations; both are useful for editors wishing to meet, work with, and, importantly, take advice from editors who share identities and thus can relate. I second what Liz says below.

I have no comment on this particular situation otherwise as an apology appears to have been made. Jasper Deng (talk) 10:45, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

If you don't mind, I've apologized and I meant it, and I'm trying to understand what I could have done differently at a finer grain than "never engage about any issue of mental health with respect to competence on Misplaced Pages again," which will be my safety-first default from here until I do get better understanding.

This reply confused me, and if I can ask without being seen to be hunting for chinks in armor or trying to litigate after the issue is resolved or anything like that, @Jasper Deng, was this meant to be a disagreement that They are often perceived as a claim to preferential treatment, i.e., a disagreement that that particular form of ableist prejudice exists? Or is it a disagreement with the prejudice, and thus an implicit attribution of the prejudice to @Cullen328? The latter did not seem like the most natural good faith reading of @Cullen328's comment, but the former doesn't make sense to me together with This in and of itself can be considered ableist in a way since it doesn't seem sensible that recognizing the fact of ableist prejudice would be in itself ableist (it seems the opposite, that recognizing such prejudices exist is often part of fighting such prejudices).

I've been incompetent at judging what people would interpret of my posts so far, and if I'm being incompetent in this interpretation in this reply in some blameworthy way I'll happily apologize for this as well, but I'm genuinely lost and would appreciate some more light on this if it's not a pain to provide it. RowanElder (talk) 15:20, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

To my understanding, Cullen328 seemed to be stating (without referring to specific evidence, so it's unclear what their supporting evidence for this is) that editors who see someone have a userbox that refers to their disability assume the disabled editor is looking for special treatment. I think Jasper Deng's response was suggesting the following: people who assume disabled editors are looking for special treatment because they disclosed their disability are not assuming good faith of those disabled editors and might be doing something ableist by making that assumption. For a lot of people, sharing that they're disabled is no different than sharing that they're gay or a woman, and most people would not look at someone disclosing one of those and also think the editor is looking for preferential treatment. My understanding might be wrong, but it's what I'm getting from this interaction. Does that make sense? - Purplewowies (talk) 22:53, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

I do think that makes sense, insofar as I do definitely understand how the belief "they are claims to preferential treatment" would be judged to be ableist, but it doesn't address my confusion. This was what I meant by "the latter" of the two interpretive alternatives in my comment just before this. My confusion was about why @Jasper Deng would have said that together with I very strongly disagree with you when I didn't see @Cullen328 necessarily endorsing the belief "they are claims to preferential treatment" in their original comment, just the belief "they are often perceived as claims for preferential treatment," which would not itself imply @Cullen328 has or agrees with that perception. RowanElder (talk) 01:07, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Thanks for your prior reply, and don't worry about this one after all. I'm going to stop trying to engage here and stop trying to figure out my confusion, I've had enough. RowanElder (talk) 23:41, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

@Cullen328 To be entirely fair, the phrase "Agent of Chaos" is fairly common in various forms of media and seems more likely to be a reference to something (like one of these, or this, or this, etc.) than an indicator that the user is acting in bad faith. CambrianCrab (talk) 04:59, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

CambrianCrab, I readily agree that the "agent of chaos" concept is used in certain genres of fiction. But we are not writing a work of fiction here. We are writing an encyclopedia and anyone who actually behaves like a agent of chaos gets blocked promptly and indefinitely. So, I do not think that it is unreasonable to express concern about an editor choosing to portray themself that way. Cullen328 (talk) 05:19, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Would you like me to change my name if it concerns you that much Akechi The Agent Of Chaos (talk) 06:05, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

I get like username policy and names shouldn't imply intent to troll and stuff but if we actually enforced that tons of people would have to change their usernames, once again I know a user that has The Liar at the end of their name but they aren't one. I feel like the most reasonable assumption is that my username is either a joke or a reference, as it is both. I feel like it's not assuming of good faith to think I'm an actual agent of chaos just because my username says I am. Akechi The Agent Of Chaos (talk) 06:18, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Cullen, I think this is reaching. Just as my name is a play on words, Agent of Chaos is also a tongue in cheek username that does not strike me as indicative of the user's intent to cause harm. — The Hand That Feeds You: 19:06, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

I agree this is reaching and one thing i hate is when people try to find something completely unrelated and throw a fit about it •Cyberwolf•talk? 20:36, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Cyberwolf is fiction so… •Cyberwolf•talk? 20:38, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Mental illness can create a competency issue in pretty much any aspect of life. For example, a person can be found too mentally ill to stand trial in a court. I’m not sure why wikipedia should be an exception.

It’s unfortunate and sad for sure, but it’s simply a fact that some people are too mentally ill to be objective, reasonable, and yes even competent.

Obviously there are varying degrees of mental illness, and some are able to control it better than others. But there should definitely be a threshold where reasonable can say “this person is too mentally ill to edit” Jwa05002 (talk) 18:26, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

I think that's not a judgement any complete stranger can make over the internet, including on Misplaced Pages. You could definitely call attention to disputed content or problematic conduct without making the assumption that it's connected to the disability of someone you do not know personally based on what you think you know about a specific editor, their disability, or how the latter affects the former. People can definitely come to consensuses that users cannot edit constructively without needing to declare that it's because they have a specific disability. Connecting the two like that is very likely to instead come across as (and/or be) a personal attack. - Purplewowies (talk) 22:40, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

@Akechi The Agent Of Chaos I apologize completely and unreservedly for saying what I did in such a way that it was taken by you (and everyone else who has said something here so far, but especially by you because your feelings were the ones hurt) as saying that you were less competent than other editors because you were autistic.

That seems important to say before any finer-grained points. I am sorry for that, completely and unreservedly. RowanElder (talk) 08:31, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Thank you, I accept your apology Akechi The Agent Of Chaos (talk) 08:37, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

• The bottom line is that every single editor is expected to fully follow our behavioral guidelines, no matter what they believe about their own mental health or what diagnoses that professionals have made. I was feeling quite depressed about ten day ago for reasons that have nothing to do with Misplaced Pages, and I have been climbing out of it without letting it affect my editing, because my Misplaced Pages editing gives me solace. If any editor is confident that they can edit productively despite a mental health challenge, then go for it. If your specific challenge impedes useful collaborative editing,then take a break until you feel better. Cullen328 (talk) 08:39, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  I will keep that in mind Akechi The Agent Of Chaos (talk) 08:41, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  Once Jwa receives this I won't get involved. Akechi The Agent Of Chaos (talk) 08:42, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  Thanks for that grace. RowanElder (talk) 08:43, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  It's good to see a proper apology here. I must admit that I'm so used to seeing non-apology apologies that that is what I was expecting. Phil Bridger (talk) 09:49, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  I've meant it from the beginning that I didn't intend to use @Akechi The Agent Of Chaos's autism as a disqualification of them. I considered the incivility disqualifying and I considered their comments about civility to show additional disqualifying incompetence of social judgment, and then I intended to highlight their self-identified autism as a possible way of reconciling the incivility and incompetence with good faith to cool and stop the uncivil running conflict with @Jwa05002 (who I thought was also responsible for incivility and making poor judgment calls, such as moving from the specific/local frustration about incompetence and incivility (actually blameworthy) to general/global frustration with neurodivergence (not blameworthy)).

  This I now see was naive and strongly against community norms, in particular viewed as unacceptably patronizing and ableist in itself, and so I'm not going to do that again here and I do find it easy to make a complete and genuine apology for having broken those norms.

  In my friendships and collaborations with autistic people in offline life, I will continue to do what has made my friendships and collaborations with them work so far. This sometimes does include very direct conversation about when to step away from fights when someone is missing social cues, but in my context it is rarely blamably patronizing or ableist to do so since there's an already strong expectation of respect for neurodivergence (and in the rare cases it is blamably patronizing or ableist, I also listen to that and stop as quickly as possible, like I am here). One of my main takeaways here is that on Misplaced Pages, the general patterns of unwanted but de facto incivility mean that there is not strong expectation that people do already respect the neurodivergent, in fact the reverse: a pretty strong expectation that communication that could be disrespect for the neurodivergent is disrespect for the neurodivergent. That seems true (that too many people don't respect neurodivergence) and important, and insofar as I wasn't already seeing it, it was because I was tripping over the "assume good faith" policy trying not to assume others were prejudiced against the neurodivergent and/or disrespecting the neurodivergent (since that seemed like it would be assuming bad faith).

  I don't yet understand how to reconcile "assume good faith" and "proactively defend people from systemic prejudices" very well. Off of Misplaced Pages I just don't assume good faith! It's something I think a lot of contemporary American political discourse has been choking on, and I think it'll be worth my time to continue thinking about it with this additional information from this experience. RowanElder (talk) 16:50, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  Hey to be honest this is a model example on how to apologize on and explain your behavior and how you want to improve here. This is what we need more of. I read through your apology several times and can’t detect bad faith from you. You’ve done well and I’ll admit working with neurodivergent individuals can be/will be challenging w/o pretty much whole life experience. I’ve made mistakes. We all will. :3 •Cyberwolf•talk? 17:42, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

  Thank you, this means a lot. I was worried it was just being taken as more bad faith when I wasn't getting other replies earlier. I've had a terrible time here and I need a break. RowanElder (talk) 23:45, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

  No you did great •Cyberwolf•talk? 23:55, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

  Thanks. Really, I do mean it. Still, on my own terms I don't feel at all good and I should take some time away. RowanElder (talk) 23:58, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

  wikipedians who are in this big of ani and are the subjects, should take a big break this is the most scary stressful and some what notorious page •Cyberwolf•talk? 00:13, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

While I can't comment on @RowanElder as I've not interacted with them, I will note that I already reported @Jwa05002 concerning (in part) some of these issues about a month ago. People wanting to judge any misbehavior, with full context, may want to read the talk page discussion where I engaged with them on it, as well as the aforementioned report itself, which has specific diffs (all of this was when my username was LaughingManiac).

For full disclosure, since I was fairly heavily involved at Talk:Killing of Jordan Neely and promised to disengage to avoid WP:BLUDGEONING, I'll attempt to refrain from getting too deep into this particular discussion. It also bears mentioning that I ended up retracting the report myself, as can be seen above. Part of it was based on my own experience as a mentally ill person and expectations concerning how the topic be handled, and I found that Jwa05002 made a valid point that personal experience cannot dictate neutral Misplaced Pages editing, something which seemed supported by Misplaced Pages's second pillar, specifically the last sentence. So, I closed the report (with the - I assumed - mutual understanding that there would be no more aspersions on Jwa05002's part), and disengaged.

I can say that my personal view of this subject is that there were problematic undertones both in how Jordan Neely's mental illness had been weaponized by Penny's defense, as well as in how it was being discussed on the talk page. I found Jwa05002's own mentions and utilization of the topic very offensive, to me personally, which is (in part) why I disengaged, since because I was personally affected in this case, I felt it would be difficult for me to participate neutrally. On a semi-related point, I do feel that Misplaced Pages in general would benefit from stricter guidelines concerning "personal experiences" beyond merely dismissing them, given that the manner in which some of the content in cases like these is treated, as well as the overt and rampant generalizations or prejudiced discourse against already vulnerable populations, may well discourage marginalized editors from contributing. But, this is ultimately a different topic that would be better suited for the village pump.

I will also mention, however, that it'd be rather disappointing in my view if a comment like this one (which to me reads like a personal attack, never even mind that the notion that "severely mentally ill people" shouldn't be allowed to participate on Misplaced Pages is deeply troubling to me) is allowed to stand.

EDIT: For fuller disclosure, I will note that I was pinged to this discussion by Akechi mentioning me, in diffs like this one. I'm unsure whether this counts as CANVASSING? Hopefully not - my intent here is merely to provide context concerning a dispute in which I was originally involved in, which seems relevant, if not identical, to this one in my eyes. NewBorders (talk) 17:29, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

I know little about the Jordan Neely case, and have not investigated it in particular, but have to give a few words about Misplaced Pages editing by people who are mentally ill or neurodivergent. I have a mental illess (I don't know if it's severe enough for Jwa05002, but I lost about half my working life because of it), and, largely through that, I know plenty of people with autism, ADHD and schizophrenia. I don't choose to display my mental status on my user page, but reveal it when relevant. I just checked and a have made nearly 49,000 edits since 2007. I don't think anyone has spotted my mental condition in all that time, because I take reponsibility for my editing and do not edit when I'm not up to it. If all the people with a mental illess or neurodivergence left Misplaced Pages it would be a much poorer place, and might not even exist. Some people with those conditions are very good editors, and some are not so good, just like "normal" people. I hope we can accept such people just as we can accept people of different genders, nationalities, sexual preferences etc. Phil Bridger (talk) 18:01, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

There are absolutely varying degrees of mental illness and it wasn’t my intention to imply anyone who suffers from a mental illness should not edit Misplaced Pages pages.

in this case, my comment was directed at one specific editor.

its unfortunate for sure, but some people simply aren’t capable of being objective and reasonable enough to edit pages.

this admin page is full of examples of users being blocked from editing because they simply aren’t able to handle the responsibility that comes with it. Jwa05002 (talk) 18:42, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Have I displayed any of that because you've kinda been urging me to stop being on the talk page for a while because of my extreme bias, which I genuinely don't know what you are talking about. This just seems like you found a more reasonable way to try and get me to stop editing. Akechi The Agent Of Chaos (talk) 23:56, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

@Jwa05002, rather than defending your comments on the article's talk page you should be offering an unreserved apology to Akechi. TarnishedPath 02:07, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

I went back and looked through that entire discussion (about schizophrenia) and I see that there were 2 different editors besides me during the conversation.

so I do apologize for conflating the two of you (Akechi and whoever the other editor was)

I honestly did not realize Akechi was not the editor who volunteered they had a schizophrenia diagnosis. That’s for sure my mistake. Akechi, I apologize for implying you’d been diagnosed with a mental illness. Jwa05002 (talk) 03:20, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Cool, do you also wanna apologise for the comments you made about severely mentally ill people, as well as just assuming I was because of my Autism. You could also just apologise generally to the user with schizophrenia they should see it, because honestly it's kind of disgusting to imply someone isn't competent because of their disabilities. Akechi The Agent Of Chaos (talk) 05:07, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

I don’t. I stand by my statement that “severely mentally ill” people shouldn’t make edits to Misplaced Pages articles.

Schizophrenia is a “severe mental illness” (don’t take my word for it, check out the Misplaced Pages article about it). That’s tragic and sad for sure, but still in my opinion, people suffering from that type of severe mental illness aren’t competent to edit Misplaced Pages articles. Jwa05002 (talk) 05:26, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

That is not you're decision to make and mental illnesses can vary in condition, we judge people's actions not how they were born. Akechi The Agent Of Chaos (talk) 06:06, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Jwa05002, I know many people with schizophrenia who would be perfectly capable of writing Misplaced Pages articles. We block/ban people because of what they do on Misplaced Pages, not because of whether they happen to have a broken leg, cancer or schizophrenia. Phil Bridger (talk) 08:32, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Just stating one more time that I never agreed with this position. RowanElder (talk) 23:46, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Yes, just in case anyone finds it meaningful I'll reaffirm my commitment to these principles as well. I specifically avoided "severe enough" language because I don't think any "overall amount" would be relevant. I spoke about impacts on specific, relevant domains. Someone can be dealing with crippling catatonic panic attacks or having outright hallucinations offline and also still be participating in Misplaced Pages constructively and valuably when they're up for it. All my evidence is that both have in fact happened in real cases, constructively and for the best. My primary principle here was that editors should not contribute where they are disruptively incompetent for any reason, with mental illness simply not a special reason (and similarly for forms of neurodivergence I don't actually like to conflate with flat "mental illness", such as many forms of autism spectrum conditions). RowanElder (talk) 19:48, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

I just came across this and i would like to say excuse my language what the fuck is this behavior. The correlations in the talk page are absolutely ridiculous and are all blatant attacks. I’m ignoring if akechi is right or wrong that doesn’t matter(to me). These attacks are not only focused on akechi but all neurodivergent contributors to Misplaced Pages. It’s disheartening that this happens. What does schizophrenia have to do with a users ability to edit. This place is for everyone who wants to contribute (within policy of course). those who degrade users because of who they are, they are trying to push people who they deem not to be “normal”. The fucking disrespect makes my blood boil. As someone who made a mistake which was directly related to my mental problems. If i was attacked for That behavior you bet I wouldn’t have held back my anger as much as akechi did. As a neurodivergent person and one who takes care of other neurodivergents. These people are more than helpful to the Misplaced Pages they all have certain content hyperfixations planes, military, cars, racing, boats you name it. Everyone has a purpose here. Shame on those who think otherwise •Cyberwolf•talk? 16:40, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Also if you would like @Jwa05002 please explain why you think schizophrenia prohibits users from being competent.
In my experience with a schizophrenic friend most of his schizophrenia is just seeing scary things. He is smart he does well in school. Tell me why he couldn’t contribute •Cyberwolf•talk? 19:26, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Block proposal - Jwa05002

I have Indefinitely blocked Jwa05002 per consensus here. Moneytrees🏝️(Talk) 18:54, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

I propose an indef block for Jwa05002 as consequence of their statements at Special:Diff/1269119175 where they wrote

Agreed. @Akechi The Agent of Chaos self admittedly (in these discussions) suffers from schizophrenia. I have the deepest sympathy for anybody with mental health issues, but that doesn’t mean severely mentally ill people should be editing Misplaced Pages articles. It’s exactly as you stated, competence is required. But….i guess this is what Misplaced Pages has devolved into. It’s sad really"

and then at Special:Diff/1269339244 where they just wrote

I don’t. I stand by my statement that “severely mentally ill” people shouldn’t make edits to Misplaced Pages articles. Schizophrenia is a “severe mental illness” (don’t take my word for it, check out the Misplaced Pages article about it). That’s tragic and sad for sure, but still in my opinion, people suffering from that type of severe mental illness aren’t competent to edit Misplaced Pages articles.

All of the editors contributions, bar one which was an edit they shouldn't have been making per WP:ARBECR, are at Talk:Killing of Jordan Neely and Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents and it therefore appears that the editor is WP:NOTHERE. TarnishedPath 05:47, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Not sure if I can place any votes because of my involvement but @Jwa05002 has in my opinion been trying to scare some user away from comment on Talk:Killing of Jordan Neely, including me where they said (https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Killing_of_Jordan_Neely#c-Jwa05002-20250101224800-Akechi_The_Agent_Of_Chaos-20241230034200)

"Based on this comment and many others I’ve seen you make here, you are far too personally biased (for whatever reason) to be making edits to this Misplaced Pages article. You are simply unable to be objective about it. Misplaced Pages should not exist as a forum for editors to grind their personal axes." in what could be seen as an attempt to scare me away from things. I don't know what Jwa was talking about because if you look at my comments on the talk page it was mostly trying to explain WP:killing of to people. The personal bias I can only assume was my disagreeing with them on the move request, as that is all I can think of. Akechi The Agent Of Chaos (talk) 11:41, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

• Support as mover. I think Jwa's comments speak for themselves. TarnishedPath 11:55, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
• Support if clue is not promptly obtained. That's not an acceptable statement to make against your fellow editors. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 14:56, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
• Support This is entirely inappropriate and disruptive comportment. Simonm223 (talk) 15:44, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
• Strong Support per my comment above •Cyberwolf•talk? 16:43, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

• Support Jwa's statement is unconscionably biased against editors with psychiatric issues, and such discrimination should not be tolerated. — The Hand That Feeds You: 19:09, 14 January 2025 (UTC)
• Support - Insinuating an editor has a serious mental illness is something that is, and should be, an immediate indefinite block at minimum. Attempting to induce a chilling effect with veiled threats is also something that is best responded to with a summary indef. I don't see any reason why Jwa is still unblocked while this ban discussion is ongoing. —Jéské Couriano v^_^v 00:10, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
• Support - what ever happened to discussing Content not the Contributor(s)? I'm with Jéské Couriano, why is Jwa still unblocked?--Kansas Bear 00:18, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
• Strongly support - I'm still getting a weird feeling to the rest of the discussion unrelated to Jwa, but Jwa's interactions feel very clear cut, particularly considering they basically doubled down when they started discussing here at ANI. Feels like obvious grounds for a block and/or CBAN. - Purplewowies (talk) 00:26, 15 January 2025 (UTC)
• Query is this proposing an indefinite block (as the section header says) or a community ban (as the text says)? - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 01:14, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

  Per WP:CBAN, Editors who are indefinitely blocked by community consensus, or remain indefinitely blocked after due consideration by the community, are considered "banned by the Misplaced Pages community". So wouldn't it be "both"? EducatedRedneck (talk) 01:21, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

  @The Bushranger, I've updated the wording to specify an indef block. But as ER states above the result would be the same. TarnishedPath 02:04, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Query Should we let Jwa know that there is a indef block proposal, like on his talk page, it seems we haven't given him any heads up and I think we probably should. Akechi The Agent Of Chaos (talk) 09:34, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

I just left a message on his talk page just giving him a heads up. Akechi The Agent Of Chaos (talk) 09:37, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

You already let them know they were being discussed here at the very start of this conversation. TarnishedPath 09:41, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

• Support unless they unequivocally recant this view, because at the end of the day competence is not decided just by what neurotype one is. I should note that if, as it currently seems, the user has left the project, this is going to be mostly an academic exercise.--Jasper Deng (talk) 10:39, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

  Yeah I did notice they just stop responding to anything, it seems they had a mission and just decided nope out I guess. Akechi The Agent Of Chaos (talk) 10:57, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Addition- policy revival and reform

wikipedia:Discrimination (failed proposal) is a proposal that failed in 2009 and I have seen too much of this happening which just goes underwhelmingly to Wp:personal attacks. But these aren’t personal only the discrimination against one person is discrimination against the users of Misplaced Pages who were basically attacked. I think its needed as the everyday change of politics in the us. The draft will be remade of course. This is just my test the waters on potential proposals which I would like to make. •Cyberwolf•talk? 15:48, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

WP:VPP would be the place for future policy proposals, but we already have precedent with treating discriminatory speech (aka misgendering and racial slurs) as WP:DISRUPTIVE. Users have been blocked on that basis over the last few years, wouldn't hurt to codify it. — The Hand That Feeds You: 17:42, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Yeah •Cyberwolf•talk? 17:54, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

If you get the ball rolling at VPP I imagine you'd find a lot of people who would like to improve Misplaced Pages's systematic handling of discriminatory actions. Simonm223 (talk) 17:58, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

I’ll start to draft a thing for village pump tonight thanks •Cyberwolf•talk? 18:06, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

user:Cyberwolf/discriminationpropdraft Been working on this dis regard my horrible format its word vomit •Cyberwolf•talk? 20:40, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

That is what made my blood boil with these interactions that they weren't just personal attacks but descrimination against a whole class of Misplaced Pages editors. I think policy here would be most welcome. Please ping me when you put up a proposal. TarnishedPath 23:35, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Special:PermanentLink/1269831022#A discrimination policy Here •Cyberwolf•talk? 16:40, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Talk page misuse (Jwa05002)

Talk-page access yanked by Moneytrees. DMacks (talk) 05:29, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

This says it all. Talk page access needs to be yanked.

It's sad though that they misread "<disorder> is characterized by <x, y, z, ...>" as "everyone with <disorder> has all of <x, y, z...> to the point that it makes them incompetent to edit". --Jasper Deng (talk) 04:59, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

@Moneytrees, please see above comment by Jasper. TarnishedPath 05:18, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Oh brother…. Moneytrees🏝️(Talk) 05:22, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Me (DragonofBatley)

It may seem odd but I'm going to appoint myself to here to save @KJP1: the trouble. It is suggested I be put under a restricted amount of editing for new articles and using Articles for Creation. I have agreed to do so but there is cause to refer it here. I have accepted the offers to fix my ways and work on it but it appears it needs an ANI report and involvement so I will do so now. The other editors can put their cases forward. I will only say to please look at the bad and the good edits I have made to the site and not just the negatives. DragonofBatley (talk) 22:39, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Notifying other editors from the wider discussions @PamD:, @Noswall59:, @Rupples:, @Crouch, Swale:, @KeithD:, @SchroCat:, @Tryptofish:, @Cremastra: and @Voice of Clam:. If I missed anyone else sorry DragonofBatley (talk) 22:45, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Non-archived discussion in DoB's talk page history that appears relevant: Special:Permalink/1268766779#Source/text_integrity. Schazjmd (talk) 22:49, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Before the other editors all pipe in. This is mostly in regards to my ability to edit an article, create notable places like in the cases of Lawley, Shropshire, Annesley South Junction Halt railway station, Gonerby Hillfoot and now redirected Lawley Furnaces and Lawley Bank. I am actually trying to offer a solution to work with the editors by using Articles for Creation but to no avail. So ANI is now the new stop. DragonofBatley (talk) 22:50, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Yes and I made some questionable choices of responses for which I am taking back as both inappropriate and immature. I am on the spectrum and do sometimes have moments of taking things personally if i feel attacked or something similar. I regret those actions and offered a fresh start to wipe slate clean and better myself but it seems it was at least now pointless as KJP1 is insisting ANI get involved. I am actually a very professional person and willing to learn. I had a bad day and went to cool off. I came back after a short time and willing to work out my issues but again. It is not really worth trying to if ANI is the new way forward. DragonofBatley (talk) 22:54, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Also this discussion: Special:PermanentLink/1269282704#Dragon. voorts (talk/contributions) 22:55, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Personally, my concern is not notability but verifiability. I'm glad to see that the user is accepting feedback and willing to move on.

I do not think restricting DragonofBatley to AfC submissions is the best course of action here, since that places the burden on AfC reviewers. Rather, I think we should wait and see if problems persist. If DragonofBatley is willing to edit carefully and go with a fresh start, well and good. WP:JAN25 is how I first came into contact with this user: if new page reviewers flag problems, then we can be having this discussion again and consider sanctions or restrictions. As it stands, I'm willing to take the user's assurances that they'll be more careful, with the understanding that they have been warned and that further problems will be dealt with seriously without many further cautions.

I'd also like to personally recommend to DragonofBatley to draft articles in userspace and then move them to mainspace him/herself. I find this approach helps me clear my head and write the article in stages, rather than write it all at once in one edit – when I do the latter, I tend to leave loose ends.

Happy editing, Cremastra (u — c) 23:01, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

I'd really like to allow enough time for uninvolved editors to examine the issues and weigh in, before we rush to say let's step back and see if he continues to accept feedback. There are some strange issues around a comment about ban evasion – it's possible that there was simply a no-problem rename, followed by an ill-considered joke, but I think it requires some closer examination: . There's also a matter of whether a CCI needs to be initiated. Those are both potentially serious matters, that should not be dismissed out-of-hand. I take the point about not wanting to burden AfC reviewers, but that just shifts the burden to other editors, rather than making the problems go away, and I don't think we should have to be cleaning it up in mainspace. And there seem to be repeated, serious concerns about content that fails verification when sources are examined. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:11, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Hi Cremastra, thanks for your input. Ive actually wanted to begin by personally thanking you and PamD for being patient with me. I really do. I want to work to improve and will do. Unfortunately, a few feel ANI is the solution so I will have to leave it for the administrative ones to suggest the next steps. I will use my sandbox for any new articles and then use AfC or ping relevant editors to maybe input on my work? Before publishing DragonofBatley (talk) 23:12, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

@DragonofBatley: I appreciate that you are willing to work via drafts instead of publishing articles directly to mainspace. Would you be willing to agree to a voluntary editing restriction (which could be enforced by partial or site blocks) that requires you to submit all drafts to AfC for approval, up to a maximum of 5 drafts at a time? voorts (talk/contributions) 23:24, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

I can agree to that. Is it possible to make a list on my talk page of interests. I work in the sandbox and ask for input from editors. Can anyone see the sandbox? DragonofBatley (talk) 23:27, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

You may use your talk page for whatever you like. You can also create a subpage, such as User:DragonofBatley/Interesting topics list. It seems like you have a large group of people who want to help you and who find value in your contributions here, and I'm sure some of them would be willing to continue to provide feedback to you. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:29, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

I've reviewed the threads that Schazjmd and I shared. I think given Dragon's communication style, the block/ban thing was probably hyperbole. Regarding CCI, where were issues raised regarding copyright concerns in Dragon's edits? voorts (talk/contributions) 23:17, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Hi Tryptofish, I don't think we have engaged in a discussion but that name ban evasion was a bad joke. I'll be honest I got confused between a name change and role playing. It was in bad taste. I'm not evading any bans or topic bans. I made an ill informed sarcastic joke and role playing. I should not have and I have time and again apologised for that. It was a stupid thing to say and I being on the spectrum as I do not wish to disclose my condition even though I likely have. Do sometimes have silly moments. I have done my best to keep them.off Misplaced Pages. The repeat things will be no more. I'm willing to fully grasp my errors and be more efficient and open to discussion on articles for AfC and in my sandbox. I offered a clean slate to start again and I stepped off it. Then ANI could have been involved. But unfortunately it was insisted despite me offering to change. The joke was in bad taste and I'm not avoiding any bans. It was a bad joke I came up with while role playing. I hope we can put that to bed and start a new. DragonofBatley (talk) 23:18, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

It was and it was in bad taste. I changed my username and felt I had a new account forgetting it was a simple name change. I had an immature moment and I hope the administrative editors see I take it back and acknowledge it as inappropriate and childish on my part. I'm being an open book now. No gimmicks or pretend. I genuinely apologise. DragonofBatley (talk) 23:20, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Given the DragonofBatley/RailwayJG account is nearly 5 years old the statute of limitations might well apply so I don't see a need to look too much into that especially given that while there have clearly been problems with this account I'm not aware of any other socks created after this account, that is to say I'm not aware DragonofBatley has been socking since creating this account. Crouch, Swale (talk) 23:23, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

There is no socking. The only time I may edit off my account is for minor corrections made to certain articles. I made one anon edit months ago to a page I believe it was Derbyshire or Yorkshire which mispelt I believe it was a church or a nearby settlement had a letter missing. But apart from that. This is my main account and I have no issues with editors making sure I am not causing a nuisance to articles not that I intend to do so. DragonofBatley (talk) 23:36, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

These are good points.

However, I don't think you meant CCI, since as far as I can tell, copyright has not been a problem. I think a CCI-like thing may be in order. WP:Failed verification cleanup project, anyone? Cremastra (u — c) 23:20, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Likely, I do try at times to source text but of course plagiarism is a big no no. So i am sometimes a bit concerned to quote full texts in fear of copyrighting or stealing a sentence/similar in writing. Would using ChatGPT be worth it to help avoid any similar problems in terms of copyright? Not for writing a paragraph or sourcing but to check for plagurising? DragonofBatley (talk) 23:24, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

ChatGPT cannot help you check for plagiarism. Given the concerns raised in this discussion and others, I recommend staying far away from ChatGPT or other LLMs for editing Misplaced Pages. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:26, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Okay thats fine. Is there any website Misplaced Pages approve to check for plagiarism? I want to make sure i do not break WP:Copyright and WP:Plagiarism. DragonofBatley (talk) 23:28, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

When sourcing or quoting a source on an article I meant to add DragonofBatley (talk) 23:29, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

(edit conflict) The reason I mentioned CCI is because multiple editors who have been closely involved in the edits said on KJP1's talk page (linked above) that some sort of CCI might be needed. I'm simply basing it on that. If they actually meant an informal CCI-like process for verifiability, then it's that. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:28, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

I think it's the latter. @DragonofBatley: Nobody is concerned about your violating copyright. Just don't copy things directly from sources or paraphrase things too closely and you'll be okay. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:30, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Okay I will do my best. Ill try to write any notable text seperate from a source as best as I can. If the CCI issue is one of the ongoing problems. DragonofBatley (talk) 23:33, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

• I made a number of suggestions about page creation restrictions in the discussion thread but as noted in reply their problems aren't limited to article creation (and I'd expect to see a shift to other problems with editing existing articles) and as noted above the AFC suggestion might overburden AFC. Maybe keeping the suggestion about only creating articles on civil parishes would be a good idea in other words going along with what Cremastra has suggested namely using userspace drafts instead of AFC or creating straight away. Crouch, Swale (talk) 23:09, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  Yeah, I agree to that. @Crouch, Swale if you'd be willing to. I could work with you on your civil parishes list directly. Not to WP:Canvassing but if you feel say an article is likely notable for a page before I submit it to AfC? I will also help clean up categories. Is there just out of interest a reason why Category:Telford and Wrekin is not used for the civil parishes in its district? DragonofBatley (talk) 23:31, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  Category:Telford and Wrekin is a district that contains many parishes which the category contains but its not its self a parish so shouldn't be in Category:Civil parishes in Shropshire. If there are not enough notable topics within a parish to have say 5 or so articles then consider just putting the articles we do have on places in the parish in the district's category namely Category:Telford and Wrekin. Crouch, Swale (talk) 23:35, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  Okay, I will do. So far we have I believe Dawley Hamlets, Great Dawley, Lawley and Overdale, Ketley, Oakengates, Wrockwardine, Wrockwardine Wood and Trench, Donnington, Madeley, Ironbridge Gorge and Wellington (which a few more articles could be added or made like for its church, notable suburbs etc) of course if they pass the AfC DragonofBatley (talk) 23:38, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

DragonofBatley, to me, the biggest concern is the repeated instances noted in those discussions where the text you added wasn't supported by the sources that you cited. That's a big deal. How do you plan to address that problem? Schazjmd (talk) 23:36, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

I mentioned above I will cite sources and aim to write ✍️ them without plagiarism happening. I'll make sure to.let other editors input before anything further happens with them. DragonofBatley (talk) 23:40, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

That doesn't address my question at all. Editors pointed out multiple instances where you wrote something then cited a source that didn't support what you wrote. How do you plan to address that problem? Schazjmd (talk) 23:42, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Plagiarism is not the issue. Could you please explain where to find Misplaced Pages's verifiability policy and what it means to you? voorts (talk/contributions) 23:42, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

@DragonofBatley: while you're taking a breather as @Tryptofish suggested, could you please write a response to my question and then post it here? voorts (talk/contributions) 23:49, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

WP:Notability, WP:Geoland, WP:Verifiability (Make sure it is.notable, not original research, if it can be included and it is.neutral/cited sources) to me means make sure it is inclusive and notable enough to be given an entry or seperate article. Like for example London and City of London. One is the capital and a county. The other is a county and old settlement. Both notable for their history, culture and landmarks. Not notable would be say an article for Oxford and the City of Oxford. Since neither are any different from one an other except suburbs. That's my best comparison for understanding the policy. DragonofBatley (talk) 23:52, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Could you explain a bit more about what it means to verify information on Misplaced Pages? voorts (talk/contributions) 23:53, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

Sourcing from books, journals, newspapers/news, websites, maps etc are normally considered primary research. Secondary research means textbooks, other encyclopedia and analysis carried out by other websites/authors. So if I made an article for let us use an example here. Ercall near Wellington, Telford. I would of course make sure Infobox settlement is used for the box. Short description and main title. When it comes to sourcing. We would want history so I could use the Domesday Book commonly accepted for older settlements or an old Ordnance Survey National Map. Then when quoting events we want books or websites that mention these events or buildings. Then for administrative purposes a government or parish council website. When it comes to secondary sourcing. News articles notable events or transport. As well as textbooks that mention it or old poems, children books, folklore, songs notable etc could be secondary research and cited if they are correctly used. Sorry my fingers are hurting 😆 now typing on mobile. But then last ones are photos 📸 and maybe notable people or landmarks like churches manor houses town halls museums National sites or historic England offer a wide array of listed buildings and some backstop which could be used to further expand the inclusion of the article. That is the best I can offer for verify information on Misplaced Pages. I hope I have proved my best understandings DragonofBatley (talk) 00:04, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Er, definitely don't use Domesday as your reference for anything on Misplaced Pages, that's quite solidly original research. Old poems etc are also not secondary research - that would still be primary research. Secondary research is stuff by academics and so on about the subject. -- asilvering (talk) 00:19, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

• DragonofBatley has agreed to a voluntary editing restriction to publish all drafts through AfC, up to five at a time, enforceable by partial or site blocks. Does that restriction resolve the concerns raised here and in other discussions? voorts (talk/contributions) 23:37, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  Maybe, but honestly, it's exhausting just keeping up with the rapidity and edit conflicts in this ANI thread. I suggest leaving it open long enough for a thoughtful examination, and I also suggest that DragonofBatley stop posting so many replies here for a while. I know it's stressful to have a complaint against oneself (even if self-initiated), but there needs to be breathing space for other editors to opine. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:43, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  I'm satisfied with the agreement. I'll also list on my talk page or username page. Potential articles for future reference and to see about creating. One more thing, the five at anytime. Is that a week or every fortnight? DragonofBatley (talk) 23:44, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  I think you misunderstood my proposal. The restriction is that you cannot have more than five active submissions at AfC at any given point in time. Once you have five drafts pending review, you would not be allowed to submit a new one until one of the five is reviewed or withdrawn. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:48, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  As noted above there are concerns that AFC is overburdened and might not catch the problems mentioned and some of the problems with DragonofBatley's contributions are not article creation but I think it would be worth giving it a try and see how it works. If there are further problems we can consider a different restriction. Crouch, Swale (talk) 23:49, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  The overburdening of AFC is why I added the five or less restriction. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:50, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  Are there issues of failed verification in content added to existing pages? Might the AfC number of five be too high? --Tryptofish (talk) 23:53, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  It strikes me as low, given that the only other editor of whom I'm aware of with a similar restriction is capped at 20. -- asilvering (talk) 00:06, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

  Most of the concerns raised in the discussions seem to be related to articles created by Dragon, rather than additions to existing articles, but I think the editors familiar with Dragon will clarify if that's wrong. I'm open to lowering the number. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:57, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  Many of the editors who have been involved in the prior discussions have not yet had an opportunity to respond here. Let's give it sufficient time. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:00, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

  Okay. I did answer your question on the policy. I hope it gives some understanding of my knowledge. If i need more researching into it. I will DragonofBatley (talk) 23:54, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

  I asked a second question. Could you please answer that one as well? voorts (talk/contributions) 23:58, 13 January 2025 (UTC)

• @DragonofBatley: Are you willing to accept the proposal that you only be allowed to publish articles through AFC and that you can only have five active AFC nominations at any given time, and that if you violate either of those two restrictions, you may be blocked? voorts (talk/contributions) 04:56, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

  Yeah, I agree to this. I have already completed one article for AfC for All Saints Church, Wellington. Hopefully this proves I am willing to accept using AfC and submitted one at any given time. DragonofBatley (talk) 05:11, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

• I’ve looked at a number of articles created by Dragon and they fail even the most basic sourcing requirements or standards. Unreliable sources and fabricated information from sources are the main issue there, and I don’t want to see any new articles being created until the 400+ old ones have been cleaned up. I would like to see a complete ban on creating any new articles, whether in user space, main space or at drafts until it can be proven that Dragon has the basic competence required to source properly - and the best place for that is cleaning up some of the crap he’s already produced. We have a good pathway of restricting the activity of editors guilty of serial copyright infringements, and this is a very similar set of problems that should face the same pathway of editing restrictions and activity management before we put too much of a burden on AfC or have too much other dross added to main space. - SchroCat (talk) 05:10, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

  This seems like a much better solution than mine, if there are editors willing to guide Dragon through that process. voorts (talk/contributions) 05:13, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

  (edit conflict) KJP1 has made an offer on the talk page about a way forward, but I’ll let them repeat and clarify here here. - SchroCat (talk) 05:24, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

  I do not see any Serial Copyright Infringements on my articles nor do I practice such things. I will not bombard replies but all I will say is maybe check out my new article created through AfC and see that I actually rushed nothing and sourced properly. Here you All Saints Church, Wellington. I will go back to my as you call them "crap" articles and fix what I can fix in due time. DragonofBatley (talk) 05:14, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

  Dragon, SchroCat is saying that we should create a process for you to fix the verifiability issues in your articles with guidance from experienced editors before you continue to create new ones. Would you agree to do that? voorts (talk/contributions) 05:16, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

  (edit conflict) Do you actually properly read what people write, or do you only hit on specific words and base a response on that? If the latter, it would explain why much of your output is so wildly at odds with the source material. You need to re-read my comment again properly and look at where you think I have accused you of being a serial copyright infringer, because I haven’t. - SchroCat (talk) 05:22, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

  I agreed to a lot of other things haven't I?. If they want to (editors) bring to my talk page any articles needing possible addressing and offer to help. I am happy with that but I would still like to be able to create new articles with AfC while doing so. I made one as I already linked and it is well edited. A bit of additions and fixes but otherwise good. I can but if I could ask for a sub section for any articles needing immediate addressing as multiple headings each time make my talk page over encumbered to work down and with. DragonofBatley (talk) 05:21, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

  I'm not sure that you abrogating your responsibility by saying that "If they want to (editors) bring to my talk page any articles needing possible addressing and offer to help". you need to be much more proactive in the process both to save the work of others in clearing up problems you have created, and to prove that you do have the competence required to continue editing here. For a start I would want to see no new articles from you, nor any new content created until the 400+ articles you have created have all been vetted and fixed (fixed by you and confirmed as vetted by someone other than you). (This 400+ is not all the articles: it's just the ones you created from scratch and doesn't include those you turned from redirect to article: I will guarantee that almost all of those will have major sourcing concerns, based on the sample of ten articles of yours I've looked at recently). KJP1 provided a possible routemap for you to follow in clearing up your mess; the only change I would make from that is to remove the ability for you to work on any other articles except ones you have already created or expanded. - SchroCat (talk) 13:49, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

  Although I agree, I'm really concerned that not a single response by DragonofBatley indicates that they understand source/text integrity. Their answers to direct questions on this issue consistently deflect to other issues. If they don't understand the verifiability problems with their articles, they can't fix them. Schazjmd (talk) 13:57, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

  That's why I would like to see them working on fixing a few of their articles: it will show whether they understand the requirements and that they have the ability/competence to fix it properly. - SchroCat (talk) 14:15, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

  That's a great point, you're right, @SchroCat. Schazjmd (talk) 14:32, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

  I responded to @Voorts earlier questions and was told to avoid replying too much to avoid encumbering replies. I got asked questions and made use of articles I am familiar with and explained to the best of my abilities. I have answered what I can and if I haven't done enough. I do not know what more I can answer. Not because of my lack of acknowledging of errors or sourcing but every word of the guidelines in one. I answered what I am aware and familiar with WP:Geoland WP:Notability and WP:Sourcing. Also conflict edit was not directed at @SchroCat, there was another editor somewhere bringing up an accusation i was causing CCI issues. DragonofBatley (talk) 21:18, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

  I worry about AfC. Yes, Dragon's All Saints Church, Wellington was approved by an AfC reviewer ... who themself copied in, unacknowledged, text from Listed buildings in Wellington, Shropshire and failed to make the references work. They also removed the wrong one of two "References" sections, leaving Refs after Ext links, and put the church into the wrong category (Grade II listed churches.., instead of grade II* ...). Yes, I know those of us who don't offer to take on the work of AfC should be careful about criticising those who do, but this is a bit disappointing.

  And Dragon's version as submitted to AfC also includes linked centuries, an Easter Egg link in the "See also", and some pretty clunky prose, before we get on to any issues of verifiability. PamD 09:24, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

The issues are Verifiability and source integrity; Notability; and the suggestion of Sockpuppetry while under a block/ban. My apologies that my reference to "somewhere similar" to CCI muddied the waters. AGF'ing that the two instances where DragonofBatley said they were operating under a ban were "jokes/roleplaying", that leaves Notability and Verifiability. The first's more of a judgement call. Some editors, I'm one, may think that readers would be better served if the articles DragonofBatley has created on sub-parish units, wards/suburbs/business parks etc., were merged into "parent" articles but others may see value in them and they may pass GNG. Which leaves Verifiability.

Multiple editors have identified multiple instances where the sources DragonofBatley used did not/do not support the content they have written. I can provide diffs but I think everyone commenting has seen the examples given on DragonofBatley's Talkpage. Three more can be seen here, Talk:All Saints Church, Wellington, which they created via AfC this morning. What we haven't seen is an explanation from DragonofBatley as to how these errors occurred. Even if there was no intent to damage the 'pedia's credibility, such carelessness raises Competency issues. For me, it demonstrates they cannot create appropriate articles without support. I think that point is accepted by most/all commenting here, including DragonofBatley. I would therefore support a requirement that, for a period, all future articles they want to create must go through AfC. I'd also support a limitation on numbers, to assist colleagues reviewing at AfC.

That leaves the 400+ articles they have created to date. I am 100% certain some will contain sourcing errors. I have already found three that do in a spot check. My own view is that resolving these existing errors, for the benefit of readers and for our own credibility, should take precedence over DragonofBatley's desire to create new articles. I think this process should involve him - as a demonstration of commitment and as a learning opportunity. I am willing to help him in this and I'm confident we can work out a process. How all of that could be simply expressed in an ANI decision, I'm less sure. Sincere apologies for the length of this response. KJP1 (talk) 13:21, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

At this point in the discussion, I find myself sharing the concern already expressed by SchroCat above, that DragonofBatley is giving answers here that do not give confidence that he really understands the issues. This makes me very reluctant to agree to further article creation in mainspace, or to submission through the AfC process (because that would just transfer the burden to AfC reviewers). I like the idea of him having to, first, demonstrate that he can fix existing problems in content he already created. I'm leaning towards putting him under a complete ban against new page creation, until after he demonstrates competence in those fixes. I could also support having an experienced editor (not me!) act as a formal mentor, who would review and pre-approve his article creation, instead of AfC. --Tryptofish (talk) 14:41, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

This issue began with erroneous citations being used to support content in Dragon’s articles. Despite being asked here and elsewhere, I’m not seeing where Dragon has even acknowledged, yet alone explained this. Either Dragon doesn’t comprehend - a competence issue - or is being evasive. Dragon’s response appears to shift responsibility to other editors to find and fix existing problems and only once notified will Dragon get involved. Not good enough. Dragon should be proactive and help set a schedule to voluntarily self-review and fix. Sadly, Dragon’s replies don’t inspire confidence. Goodwill and trust needs to be rebuilt and demonstrated in a practical manner. I’d support a restriction on article creation for a minimum of three months, while problems with their existing articles are resolved. At the end of this period Dragon can appeal and hopefully resume article creation under supervision of an experienced editor, who would review before publication. If all goes well, Dragon can eventually regain the right to article creation without oversight, but at present this seems some way off. Don’t see the need for any restriction on Dragon’s general editing at this juncture. Rupples (talk) 20:57, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

I'm sorry if i cannot inspire confidence. Im on spectrum quite severly so confidence is not something i can write up to inspire trust. I have apologised enough and it seems it is all falling on deaf ears. I have agreed to listen and work but is anyone actually noting that? Or is there some ignoring feelings from editors. Maybe burnout or tiredness? I cannot comprehend emotions or feelings of others on the otherside of a monitor. DragonofBatley (talk) 21:21, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

And without being a douche. Maybe some editors need to educate themselves in Austism, Aspergers and cognitive disability. These are what i suffer from and maybe some will see that I am actually not meaning to be an issue or a parasite. Im meaning to contribute but i feel these three articles best explain my maybe odd behaviours and slight issues with writing at times. DragonofBatley (talk) 21:26, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

@DragonofBatley. Allow me to present and expand upon my previous comment with an analogy. Suppose someone with a disability volunteered and was accepted to work in a charity (thrift) shop. This person was interviewed and thought capable of operating the cash till and servicing customers. It transpired however that the volunteer was making mistakes by not giving the correct change and was upsetting customers due to their disability. The charity being a caring organisation didn’t want to dismiss the volunteer, but in the meantime had to take steps to protect its interests. An alternative position was found for the volunteer in the less customer facing role of receiving donations and organising stock. At the same time help and support was given to the volunteer, with a view of a possible return to their previous role, should capability problems be overcome. It may not come across to you this way, but all the editors here are of the caring sort and are taking into account your disability/limitations (if I can put it that way) but the immediate priority must be to protect the project from further harm and put right existing issues. Rupples (talk) 23:01, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

@DragonofBatley, the editors responding here value your ability to find notable topics and start articles about them. We are tryig to find a way to accommodate your disabilities while making sure that other editors don't need to spend too much time fixing mistakes that you make. voorts (talk/contributions) 23:20, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Dragon has created articles on notable topics that are valued and I'm not suggesting otherwise. Infact, the opposite. I welcome the opportunity to expand some of Dragon's creations and have done so, including a couple that have come up at AfD. Rereading my analogy, it comes across as not altogether appropriate, but Dragon replied to my previous comment with what I interpreted as an announcement of disability issues much more severe than I realised plus a "you don't understand or care or are listening", but maybe I've got that wrong. Anyway, I've put forward my view and will leave it there. Rupples (talk) 00:27, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

I appreciate that, I am just trying to understand not with yourself @Rupples or @Voorts. You two have been very patient and understanding. I was more trying to engage a reply with @Schazjmd and @SchroCat's earlier remarks above. But there seems to be an issue with building reply after reply so I am hoping now they can see the section around here and on my user page. I do not like to announce disabilites but I want to put them forward to hopefully engage some understanding that some of the edits or replies I have made are not out of spite or trolling. Just sometimes it can be hard and I try to open up where appropriate. Now is the best time as I am getting a lot of things to read and feel Voorts solution was enough to agree to. Also I am not looking to fall out with editors or make a war and peace. Just asking for some understanding aside from addressing other issues too. That is all. DragonofBatley (talk) 00:34, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

I have been tagged above and intend to write a response. This thread was started at night where I live and I am travelling today and tomorrow for work, so have had very little time to consider a response. Do not feel obliged to keep this open for me - my thoughts are largely present at KPJ1's talkpage discussion; I will probably add concerns around understanding what a reliable source is in addition to the WP:V and WP:N concerns already raised. If this discussion is still open tomorrow evening, I will try to find the time to respond properly. Thanks, —Noswall59 (talk) 22:10, 14 January 2025 (UTC).

As stated above, my thoughts are present at KJP1’s talk page. In sum, I have seen three discernible issues: (1) content quality issues; (2) civility and general conduct; and (3) potential sock-puppetry. I will leave out (3) as others seem content to discount that and I note he has repeatedly denied evading a ban.

There is emerging consensus here that there have been multiple and repeated issues with Dragon’s lack of adherence to core policies including verifiability. I would take this a step further. Misplaced Pages exists to be the sum of knowledge, by which we mean its sole purpose is to accurately summarise reliable (secondary) sources whatever and wherever they are about, dispassionately: we let the sources do the work for us. This protects us, it gives us integrity and it defines our purpose and scope. Policies like V, N, OR, SIGCOV and RS all stem from that basic maxim and implement it in practice: if there’s no good sources, we can’t write about it; if we don’t cite our sources, we’re useless; if the sources are not good then we can’t be trusted either; if we’re adding our research, we’re not summing knowledge, we’re making it. Dragon’s issues with verifiability are to me a symptom of a wider problem he has when it comes to understanding what this project is, what a reliable source is and how to use it to write an article. In my view, his articles exhibit issues with not just verifiability but all of those other policies I’ve mentioned. Not all the articles, to be clear - he’s added useful content too and I recognise that - but certainly even those good things can often be caveated by issues with prose, sourcing or verifiability. The answers he has given above suggest to me that he still has only a partial understanding of the core maxim and the policies mentioned above. I think this then combines with what Yngvadottir calls issues with reading comprehension, and the carelessness and hasty edits Pam and others have documented. It’s a bad mix replicated over many hundreds of articles. This is not just a few instances and nor is it new: these concerns have been raised on his talk page and elsewhere dozens and dozens of times, and I imagine more issues are out there. It won’t change unless Dragon can grasp what this project is and how editing should be done.

Additionally, though of secondary importance, Dragon has often tended to respond badly to criticism or challenges. He has a sharp temper and has a tendency to take offence lightly and to perceive editors as ganging up on him, trying to silence him or persecute him. Some of his edits to his userpage have been particularly inappropriate, including one where he incited violence. I think his combative approach to challenge has not helped him to deal with the issues above.

For all these reasons, I would have been minded to call for an indef block had Dragon not cooled down and shown what I believe is a genuine desire to improve. In recent days, he has taken a more measured tone, slowed down his edits and agreed to go through AfC. He has engaged mostly constructively here. I am mindful that he has created notable content, edits in good faith, and claims to have a number of cognitive disorders which may explain some of his behaviour. I am mindful that this has probably been a very draining and difficult period for him; we are all human. So my view is that he needs to work with others to clean up his existing contributions, understand what WP is and our core policies, slow down, check his work, use sandboxes, drafts and AfC for new content and only create new content that has been approved by others. There ought to be a time limit on this. I would suggest that breaching these requirements in the meantime be sanctionable by a block. At the end of this time, if Dragon can demonstrate competence, then that’s great. However, this needs to be a final warning in my view: further sustained and pervasive issues with core content policies or civility should result in either topic bans or, regrettably but I think most appropriately, an indef. I don’t want to see it get there - I know this is important to him. But we need to protect this project at the end of the day. Thanks, -Noswall59 (talk) 00:34, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Do you have thoughts on the proposal below? voorts (talk/contributions) 02:40, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

I've added my thoughts below -- I'm broadly supportive of it. —Noswall59 (talk) 10:28, 16 January 2025 (UTC).

(I wasn't pinged here, but I had been at User talk:DragonofBatley.) DragonofBatley has been at this noticeboard before, in a section they started in May 2023, Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1131#PamD and I'm feeling intentionally stalked. PamD stated there that they became aware of DragonofBatley's edits in 2021 and had since been checking and fixing them and trying to advise DragonofBatley. It emerged that others had been trying to advise and assist them, in particular Crouch, Swale. There was further discussion at their talk page (including overly verbose advice from me, I was trying to be clear) and the editor mulling whether to leave. (their talk page in July 2023). I gather that they did not leave, but that their editing has continued to be poor and the number of editors noticing this, trying to help, and discussing the problem has increased further. It pains me to say so, but I think at this point WP:CIR has to be seriously considered. DragonofBatley's editing presents a number of problems that are taking up a lot of editorial time to fix resulting damage to the encyclopaedia. (Points that follow in descending order of importance to me.)

• Poor understanding of sources leading to inaccuracy. An example from PamD on their user talk recently: 'Woods Bank is on my watchlist so recent edits brought it back to my mind. Looking at the article history reminds me of a major problem with Dragon's work on it: he wrote "At one point, it was one of the most expensive places to live in the West Midlands between 1841 and 1871 due to housing stocks increasing by up to 87%." From the same source I changed this to "The number of houses in the Woods Bank area increased by up to 87% between 1841 and 1871, and a sanitary report of 1875 describes a dwelling there as of one lower and one upper room, with no ventilation or back door. The area was described as "a distinct location of poor ironworkers".' Their problem responding to the questions about sourcing earlier may be related; DragonofBatley appears to have problems with reading comprehension. That's a serious competency issue for what we do here.
• Poor understanding of what's significant. PamD notes ill-judged removal of referenced content here calling it "irrelevant". At User talk:KJP1, PamD also notes: 'A sad thing is that sometimes there's actually a source there which does have some interesting information about the place, but it's ignored and the source is just used a evidence of the existence of the place. The article St Peter and St Paul Church, Caistor, as he left it, cited an 1840 book apparently to support the NHLE listing, while the book actually included a fascinating story, supported by other sources, about "The Gad Whip", which I then added.' I disagree with PamD that that's a recent development, although they've got better at finding such sources. DragonofBatley writes about churches that are listed buildings without focussing on their architecture. In their most recent creation, All Saints Church, Wellington, the entire Architecture section was added by other(s). However, their church articles always contain something like The church serves as a local landmark and place of worship and community gatherings. sourced to achurchnearyou.com, often as a separate "Present day" section. DragonofBatley's version of All Saints' Church, Batley (which appears to be their first church article, from December 2020, after some 50 previous article creations mainly on stations) had this as its entire prose: All Saints Church is an active Parish Church in the town of Batley, Kirklees, West Yorkshire, England. Built in 1485 and been an active place of worship for Christians since before 1086. The church is located on Stocks Lane. Near to the town centre, the church is the main parish church of the town and local suburbs. (And the infobox called this 15th-century church, restored in the 19th century, "Gothic revival"). (I spent quite a bit of time in 2023 fixing up some of these articles, including clearly distinguishing St Augustine of Canterbury, Rugeley and St Augustine's Church, Rugeley, both ineptly created by DragonofBatley.)
• Very slow to learn. I don't know how many times editors, not just PamD, told DragonofBatley that just reversing the order of "km" and "mi" in the convert template, as here, was a fasification, not a correction, and drew their attention to the parameter for flipping the order. (That instance was linked at the earlier AN/I, by someone who was not PamD.)
• Tends to be careless: they have a history of unintentional red links and other errors that should have been caught on preview. I have the impression they are still overreliant on others fixing their articles.

There are also attitudinal problems; they react badly to criticism (I note Liz has given them a bit of advice on their talk page arising from this AN/I), and this preemptive self-report, and its wording, is not exemplary conduct. Being on the spectrum is something shared by many Misplaced Pages editors, and I've risen to the defence of several, but it's not a universal protective shield. I see improvement since 2023, and if it were just that they want to write articles about electoral wards and parish councils, a restriction to use AfC would deal with that poor judgement about notability. But the problems with DragonofBatley's edits go beyond notability and beyond their article creation and informal mentorship and personal commitments and promised self-restrictions have been tried before, to little or no avail. When all's said and done, I don't think someone who after 4 years misunderstands written sources as badly as in that Woods Bank instance (at the end of this edit, which was made as in November 2024) should be editing Misplaced Pages at all. Many editors have been understanding and constructive and helpful, but enough's enough, in my view. Yngvadottir (talk) 01:48, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

I disagree about the self-report; it shows at best strong integrity and honesty and at the unlikely very worst a self-interested desire to get the first word in. Cremastra (u — c) 01:52, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

All of the editors who you've quoted in support of your argument for an indef have been actively supportive of giving DoB another chance in this very thread or in the recent threads that were linked to at the beginning of this discussion. voorts (talk/contributions) 02:11, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

I'd like to point to WP:Zeroth law of Misplaced Pages: "On Misplaced Pages, the zeroth law is that good editors are the most valuable resource. Some would say the articles – but it takes good editors to write articles." Even more valuable when the editor in question is prolific at creating content. Kenneth Kho (talk) 18:11, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Sadly, prolific creation of content is valuable if, and only if, it is good content. It is not valuable if it is incorrect because the editor has misunderstood sources, and is less valuable if it is poorly sourced because the sources shown do not support the material in the article, or is so clumsily written so that other editors feel they need to spend time cleaning it up (eg a red link for a UK parliament constituency, because the disambiguator was typed wrongly).

I've been slow to contribute to this debate, although I contributed at length in the recent discussions at User_talk:KJP1#Dragon and Special:Permalink/1268766779#Source/text_integrity, and have had a lot of previous interactions with Dragon which led to, I think, my only appearance at ANI: Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1131#PamD and I'm feeling intentionally stalked.

I find it difficult to see the way forward. Dragon enjoys editing. He edits prolifically, and with good intent. He likes creating new articles, although I disagree with him over the notability of some of his topics, where he wants to create articles on ill-defined "suburbs" or on local authority electoral wards, where there is very little which can be usefully and interestingly said and well sourced, or on the "built up areas" which are used for government purposes but are otherwise pretty meaningless. (Minor disused UK railway stations are a different issue: I think there's a consensus that adequate sources probably exist, but if he can't actually find good sources to cite he should perhaps hold off and leave them to someone who has a shelf-full of printed books to use to source the articles). I would not want us to deprive him unnecessarily of the joy of editing.

Not all his controversial edits are in the creation of new articles: he has added multi-image "collages" in infoboxes of many articles where other editors have not always agreed with his choice, or number, of images; he removes "subjective" terms like "large" or "small" from leads (although the FA for Chew Stoke, which is also the example of a lead in Misplaced Pages:WikiProject UK geography/How to write about settlements, starts "Chew Stoke is a small village ...": Dragon can't have spotted that one); he removes unsourced text which has been in place for many years, rather than tagging it as {{cn}} (I know, opinions on that one differ). And there has been a lot of carelessness, a lot of failure to heed advice.

Perhaps the disabilities Dragon has recently mentioned contribute to a failure to learn or understand, in which case we sadly need to consider whether he is able to contribute as a net positive to the encyclopedia. A couple of recent instances look as if he has read a few words and made assumptions - removing a church as "not relevant" to a village because it was built elsewhere before being rebuilt in the village, and taking an 87% increase in housing stock as making a place "one of the most expensive places to live in the West Midlands" rather than as an area of overcrowding and squalor.

The idea of looking at his previous article creations and checking their sourcing and notability seems reasonable. Many of those articles will already have been cleaned up and further developed by other editors, to a greater or lesser extent. I and other editors spent time yesterday fixing and upgrading his latest creation, All Saints Church, Wellington (which had the added complication of a careless AfC reviewer who created broken refs while adding unacknowledged copied material).

It's tempting to go for the simple option and say that Dragon has been given enough chances, has demonstrated ongoing failure to learn and take advice, and should be blocked to protect the encyclopedia. But I hope we can come up with a different outcome which will allow him to continue editing while learning how to do things better and, above all, to check and double-check all his work, as he has promised to do in the past. (Are all my references good and informative refs, with as specific a link as possible, to sources which actually support the text I have written? Do all the links go to articles not dab pages? Are there any unexpected red links which should be blue? Have I remembered not to link years or centuries? Have all my sentences got a verb? etc) I'm not sure that the standard AfC process is careful enough to catch all the problems which can occur in Dragon's article creations.

Sorry for the wall of text. I'm not sure how we should go forward, but am glad to see a wider discussion of this editor's contributions. PamD 22:21, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

I think that's a very thoughtful analysis. And I think we are approaching a consensus against a total ban/block. But I also think it helps move us to a good outcome for me to argue against placing so much emphasis on not "depriv him unnecessarily of the joy of editing", insofar as we need to consider the point at which he stops being "able to contribute as a net positive to the encyclopedia." So I think that if we firm up the details of the editing restriction proposal below, that will be the right way to go. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:52, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Draft proposed editing restriction/cleanup work

I think there's some consensus here that some sort of editing restriction is needed. (I never logged the AFC editing restrictions that I proposed and I don't think that there's consensus that those are adequate anyways.) In particular, it seems that editors feel that DoB should be required to review his old contributions under the guidance of experienced editors and show a better grasp of WP:V and WP:RS before returning to article creation. If some of the editors who have worked with DoB are willing to structure such a cleanup project and work with DoB on it, I propose formalizing the editing restriction, appealable in six months. voorts (talk/contributions) 01:09, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

I've got some experience of CCI investigations, so I'd suggest we treat it something like that - recognising that the focus isn't plagiarism, but sourcing. I can set up a table of the 400-odd articles that need reviewing in a sandbox , with some Decisions/Actions columns - OK / Revise and Keep / Merge / Second Opinion / AfD / etc. Then DragonofBatley and I can agree a process to work through them, hopefully with some help from other interested editors. Given the number, I think reviewing them all within six months is achievable. That would then give DragonofBatley demonstrable evidence of improvement on which they could base an appeal for a lifting of restrictions on new article creation. KJP1 (talk) 06:48, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

I am an interested editor. Cremastra (u — c) 13:33, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

I was thinking of proposing something very similar, and I'm glad that voorts thought of it before I got here. I'm the wrong person to be supervising the cleanup, but editors above would have my support. If we were to finalize a formal restriction, it should include a ban on new articles except in userspace or draft space, one or more supervising editors identified by name while cleanup of old contributions is ongoing, and no lifting of the ban without a consensus to do so at AN or ANI. I'd happily support that. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:00, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

I suggest that any restriction on creating new articles should also include converting redirects to articles. PamD 21:09, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

In addition, there should probably be an element of last-chance/WP:ROPE in this, in that a failure to make progress would lead to consideration of a site ban. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:54, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

I would agree with this: a structured clean-up approach which also supports Dragon and allows him to demonstrate an improved understanding of our core policies + the formal editing restrictions proposed. I do edit in these areas and would be happy to help from time to time, but I simply don't have the capacity due to IRL things for me to make a formal commitment to this cleanup work (as my slow response time here demonstrates). I agree with Tryptofish's last comment: this has to be a last chance now: failure to make progress should probably lead to a site ban. Thanks, —Noswall59 (talk) 10:27, 16 January 2025 (UTC).

To be honest. I'm gonna just maintain a small commitment now. I have made a subsection on my page which @PamD has pointed out a couple of not needing an article. I will consider them as not something to focus on and maybe revisit them at a later time to consider. If it's a last chance, it's something I'm gonna have to downgrade. I'll just stick to my own page and sandbox. If I remove redirects I'll see if theres enough for an article for AfC or I'll send it as seperate and if accepted on good grounds. The redirect can be then merged to that article. Of course I'll not remove it but please do note. I am going to be taking a long term occasional editing spree. I've made some to a few AfD and CN. But I have to be honest lost my motivation to continue editing. I appreciate the options and proposals offered but if I'm going to end up likely getting site banned. It's just not worth me being too involved if i am close to basically having my enjoyment halted with one misstep not intentionally caused but is and I'm then blocked because of it. I'm 😕 sorry but that is just how i feel. Ill just stay on a down low and sometime submit an article to AfC. Ill work on a new one and some old ones this week and then ill be downgrading completely my contributions going forward. DragonofBatley (talk) 16:44, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Not saying I'm quitting or going under the radar but the amount of disruption I'm causing and the amount of differing opinions proves I'm fairly unpopular amongst editors and if i am nuisance. Ill stick to downlow edits and articles still being passed as agreed. I wanted to contribute I really do but if my disabilites are an obstacle which should be worded carefully per the disability act. If a site ban is lingering over me. You got to understand it from my perspective and how i conceive it as a threat and a flatline of my entire editing time on here. Even with just cause reasons. DragonofBatley (talk) 16:49, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

I don't think there's an option on the table for you to continue putting anything through AFC or creating any more articles at all (even changing from a redirect to a full article) without first spending time tidying up the mess of your earlier works. I think you need to understand that people are not sure whether you can be trusted to write anything within the confines of the requirements of sourcing. You need to be able to prove that on your earlier work before you work on anything else. - SchroCat (talk) 16:55, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Alright, not here per say but on my talk page. Please because I don't know how to find it. Could I get a link to all my articles (Every single one of them I believe were in a big table listed), Then I can go through each one and work on the ones needing attention? I am not sure how to find them without going back through my contributions history which will take forever to do. Thanks DragonofBatley (talk) 17:24, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

About 9 posts above this, in KJP1's post, there's a link to "400-odd articles". Is that what you're looking for? PamD 17:54, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Yeah thats the one ill have a look up there DragonofBatley (talk) 19:16, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

voorts - Is it possible to close this one up? There's been a full airing of views, there looks to be a discernible consensus, and there's a fair amount of remedial work needed. It would be good to wrap it up with a decision so that work could begin. Many thanks. KJP1 (talk) 21:22, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Me replying, even though you didn't ask me. I think we need to get this into the form of an actual proposal, with actual language, because it will have to be logged. I'll offer to write it, but I'd first like to get some clarity as to which editor(s) are offering to be responsible for the mentor/reviewer role. (Or maybe I'll just draft those editors who were the most reluctant to sanction. Sound of evil laughter.) --Tryptofish (talk) 23:19, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

How's this draft proposal: DragonofBatley (talk · contribs) is indefinitely restricted from publishing new articles to mainspace, converting redirects to articles, or submitting drafts to AfC. This restriction is appealable in six months only if DragonofBatley participates in a cleanup project of articles that he has created, to be coordinated by KJP1 (talk · contribs) and Cremastra (talk · contribs). voorts (talk/contributions) 00:25, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

Needs to explicitly include creation of new articles which replace existing redirects.

Having seen Dragon's work on Holme Lacy yesterday (removed the "See also" which was the only link to the nearby and eponymous grade I listed church; replaced sensible coords with overprecise ones; added a second "References" heading; left a category lacking a closing bracket) I'm pessimistic about his promises of future careful editing.

And sorry, no, I'm not going to volunteer to have a named responsibility in sorting out the mess: I'll just chip in as and when. PamD 00:37, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

I only added KJP1 and Cremastra because they seem to have affirmatively volunteered, but of course they'd have to agree to this. voorts (talk/contributions) 00:53, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

Wording looks good, it covers the issues editors have flagged and I’m fine with the reference to myself. KJP1 (talk) 05:59, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

Wording looks good, but I’d widen slightly to say no new articles in draft space or user space, nor any expansion of articles which he did not create from afresh or expand from a redirect. That will focus the activity on clean up, rather than it only being a smaller proportion of their activity. - SchroCat (talk) 08:28, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

What constitues "expansion"? Does it include: Adding an infobox? Adding a few words about local authority area? Adding a "collage" which replaces one clear photo of the town hall with a trio of images dominated by a football crowd? A tight definition is needed to avoid any ambiguity. PamD 09:06, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

Having looked further at Dragon's edits of today, I'm moving towards supporting a ban on all edits beyond the cleanup operation. The collage he added to Trafford, never mind the (to my mind) questionable choice of images, had the captions in the wrong order, even after he had "corrected" the collage. I think we could at this point collectively lose our patience with his careless editing. PamD 09:16, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

Thanks for the question PamD. To clarify, I meant any expansion, even a tiny one, and that’s for userspace or mainspace. To my mind—and others may well differ on this point—the only editing DoB should be doing anywhere on WP is either cleaning up his old articles (under supervision), or liaising with the relevant people about that clean-up. - SchroCat (talk) 09:30, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

So perhaps: "Dragon is indefinitely restricted from editing in mainspace, except to make corrections and improvements to articles he created or converted from a redirect. This restriction is appealable in six months only if DragonofBatley participates in a cleanup project of articles that he has created, ... " PamD 09:53, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

I agree with that. And thanks to everyone here. I think we need to make these tweaks: "DragonofBatley (talk · contribs) is indefinitely restricted from editing in mainspace and submitting drafts to AfC, except to make corrections and improvements to articles he previously created or previously converted from a redirect. This restriction is appealable in six months only if DragonofBatley successfully participates in a cleanup project of articles that he has created, to be coordinated by KJP1 (talk · contribs) and Cremastra (talk · contribs)." I've tried to close any loopholes there. --Tryptofish (talk) 14:12, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

Okay, looks good. @KJP1 what are we going for in the cleanup project? The CCI-thing suggested above with a list of articles created, or something different? Cremastra (u — c) 14:43, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

Cremastra - I've worked up a table as a basis for reviewing the articles, and Rupples and I have tried a few out. So as not to clutter up this discussion, I'll post details on your Talkpage. Best regards. KJP1 (talk) 16:44, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

Hold on. This goes much further than @Voorts wording. Thought there was more or less consensus on restricting article creation, in whatever form. Why the (sudden?) widening of the proposed restriction to editing in mainspace? Rupples (talk) 14:46, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

In my case, it's because Dragon has been demonstrating today that he appears not to be able to edit without making substantial careless mistakes, as at Trafford. I've lost patience. PamD 16:13, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

Perhaps we need to consider 3 options which have been suggested:

1. No creation of new articles or drafts, including overwriting redirects
2. No expansion of articles (defined how? What if he adds 25 words and removes 20, or 30?)
3. No editing in mainspace.

PamD 16:15, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

I think we can have !voters choose from amongst options. I'm not going to include the no expansion rule because I don't think that's really workable. If this is to everyone's satisfaction, I will start a survey where involved and uninvolved editors can weigh in.DragonofBatley (talk · contribs) is subject to the following indefinite editing restriction(s):

Option A: DragonofBatley may not publish new articles to mainspace, convert redirects to articles, or submit drafts to AfC.

Option B: DragonofBatley may not edit in mainspace, except to make corrections and improvements to articles he previously created, converted from a redirect, or significantly expanded.

Option C: DragonofBatley may not edit in any namespace except to make corrections and improvements to articles he previously created, previously converted from a redirect, or significantly expanded, or to liaise with editors assisting him in correcting or improving those articles.

The restriction(s) may be appealed in six months only if DragonofBatley participates in a cleanup project of articles that he has created, to be coordinated by KJP1 (talk · contribs) and Cremastra (talk · contribs). voorts (talk/contributions) 16:23, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

I think those options nicely sum up the two approaches; the more-generous one which allows mainspace editing of existing articles; and the tighter one that restricts them to working only on those 400+ existing articles that they created (here, I think we'd need SchroCat's caveat about "liaising with the relevant people about the clean-up"). I will work with either approach, as consensus determines, but would personally favour Option B. I appreciate that this is the tougher option, but having seen the three, admittedly minor, errors that DragonofBatley introduced this morning into Trafford, a Featured article, I do not think they can currently edit appropriately without support. I am really hoping that their involvement in the clean-up work will give them the necessary competence to do so in the future. KJP1 (talk) 16:38, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

@KJP1: I made some changes. voorts (talk/contributions) 17:20, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

Then I'd favour C, but B and C are really the same. Cremastra and I will need to talk with DragonofBatley, on his Talkpage, on ours, and on the Talkpages of articles we're jointly reviewing, for this to work and for it to achieve both objectives - address any issues in the articles and improve DragonofBatley's editing skills. KJP1 (talk) 17:27, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

p.s. Trafford this morning is a good example of this; I wanted him to be able to identify/correct the errors that had been introduced. KJP1 (talk) 17:31, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

Question: does option C prohibit DragonofBatley from commenting/!voting on articles they've created at AfD discussions? Rupples (talk) 18:05, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

That’s a good, and unthought-of, point. I think they should be able to do so, as the article’s author, and because there will be lots of learning. KJP1 (talk) 18:11, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

I agree. Rupples (talk) 18:15, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

@KJP1 and @Rupples: option C amended below. voorts (talk/contributions) 18:17, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

Should option C also include a clause allowing Dragon to respond if he is mentioned in any discussion in WP space (thinking of ANI, AN, AIV, SPI, ... )? PamD 22:35, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

I think that is probably a given and doesn't really need to be spelled out. voorts (talk/contributions) 22:44, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

Proposal: DragonofBatley editing restriction(s)

DragonofBatley (talk · contribs) is subject to the following indefinite editing restriction(s):

Option A: DragonofBatley may not publish new articles to mainspace, convert redirects to articles, or submit drafts to AfC.

Option B: DragonofBatley may not edit in mainspace, except to make corrections and improvements to articles he has previously created, converted from a redirect, or significantly expanded, or to oppose a PROD.

Option C: DragonofBatley may not edit in any namespace except: (1) to make corrections and improvements to articles he has previously created, converted from a redirect, or significantly expanded; (2) to comment in AfD discussions or to oppose PRODs or CSDs regarding those articles; or (3) to liaise with editors assisting him in correcting or improving those articles.

The restriction(s) may be appealed in six months only if DragonofBatley participates in a cleanup project of articles that he has created, to be coordinated by KJP1 (talk · contribs) and Cremastra (talk · contribs). voorts (talk/contributions) 17:37, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

Uninvolved editors

Involved editors

@KJP1, Cremastra, Rupples, PamD, DragonofBatley, Crouch, Swale, SchroCat, Tryptofish, and Noswall59. (Apologies if I missed anyone.) voorts (talk/contributions) 18:26, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

• Support option A as proposed for 6 months. I think its quite clear that that is needed given as noted the burden this might have on AFC but I'm willing to consider allowing some AFC say 1 article a week but I think it might be better to wait until the cleanup has been done the they have demonstrated the ability to create suitable articles. I would say it would be fine for DragonofBatley to ask KJP1 or Cremastra or another experienced user (if they explain their restrictions) to move drafts they have created to mainspace but I would not suggest they do that until the cleanup has been completed. I would also support option B I would consider allowing an appeal of only 2 or 3 months as this restriction is much more restrictive but I think given as noted by PamD their problems with editing existing articles this might well be helpful especially since if they can't create new articles I'd expect a shift towards the problems with existing articles. Oppose option C as (1) I'm not aware of problems outside mainspace and (2) I think in any case this would be too restrictive at least for 6 months, if C is done I'd at least support allowing appeal after 2 or 3 months. So in summary I think option B plus 1 article through AFC every week or every other week would be the best option but I don't have a strong opinion. Crouch, Swale (talk) 19:05, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
• Oppose all, as written. Sorry, this has changed from what I could support. First, in the draft version that I suggested, I had the word "successfully" in the sentence that mentions KJP1 and Cremastra: "only if DragonofBatley successfully participates...". That's important. The coordinators will need to evaluate whether or not he "got the message", not just whether he made some token effort, and their evaluation needs to have a meaningful role in the consideration of an appeal. I definitely cannot support A, because I think his mainspace editing needs to be restricted to fixing his mistakes. Anything less does not comport with the facts as we have them. As for B and C, I agree with participation in AfD, but that's in project space, not mainspace. I think objecting to PRODs or CSDs is not worth allowing. C comes closest to how I feel, but I don't feel that we need to make formal restrictions of his editing outside of mainspace. He should be able to communicate on his talk page and user page, without being restricted, and he should probably be able to comment on talk pages of articles. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:51, 18 January 2025 (UTC)
• C if anything. (Again, wasn't pinged, but I have been a bit involved.) DragonofBatley keeps demonstrating borderline lack of competence. Most recently inserting one of his collages into an FA (I'd forgotten he also added collages) and getting the captions wrong. The clarity and correctness of the posting here is also at or below the standard we should expect for a participant in a writing project: If it's a last chance, it's something I'm gonna have to downgrade. I'll just stick to my own page and sandbox. If I remove redirects I'll see if theres enough for an article for AfC or I'll send it as seperate and if accepted on good grounds. The redirect can be then merged to that article. Of course I'll not remove it but please do note. I am going to be taking a long term occasional editing spree. I don't trust their judgement on what is an improvement to an article; and how far should we stretch to try to accommodate someone who needs so many curbs and guiderails? I deeply appreciate the willingness of other editors to help them with the task of cleaning up their articles (as well as all the time and effort some editors have already expended trying to advise and help them); I recognise that there are legitimately differing views on some of what they like to do, such as the collages; but I'd rather see them restricted to their user talk and user space, workshopping the article fixes there. (Note: Several of the 400 or so articles have already been fixed, like the churches I worked on. The task is less massive than it may seem.) Yngvadottir (talk) 03:47, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
• Prefer the less stringent option A because I’d like to see self-motivation from DragonofBatley to assist with the clean-up. OK with adding "successfully" to the option. It is disappointing that Dragon has recently made errors on Trafford, all the more so it being a featured article, and it did lead me to consider supporting a ‘tougher’ restriction. Whatever is decided, it would be unreasonable for Dragon to be bombarded with too many queries over a short space of time; in particular, AfD nominations should be staggered. Dragon’s articles are on encyclopedic topics; though it looks a fair few will be merged or redirected because of marginal notability. After a very brief review, it seems the use of erroneous citations is mostly a recent phenomenon (last three months or so). Note the increased pace of Dragon’s article creation from September 2024. Rupples (talk) 12:00, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

Discussion

• I think I would be happier if:

1. there was a restriction on userspace editing too - limiting them only to work connected to the clean-up (allowing rewrites of sections, slowly building up sections and sources before rewriting something in the list of 400).
2. I'd also be happier if the end sentence from above was used: "This restriction is appealable in six months only if DragonofBatley successfully participates in a clean-up project of articles that he has created, to be coordinated by KJP1 (talk · contribs) and Cremastra (talk · contribs)." This should both focus the activity solely onto the clean-up, and also make DoB prove to people that he is both willing and capable of writing decent content. - SchroCat (talk) 09:30, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

• I suggest that the restriction needs to include Category space as well, to protect the encyclopedia from the creation of unnecessary categories, which could then be added to articles Dragon has himself created. See Misplaced Pages:Categories for discussion/Log/2025 January 19#Category:Civil parishes in Telford and Wrekin. If we expect Dragon to concentrate on the cleanup project, we need to curb his enthusiastic creation of categories (and perhaps template, navboxes, portals, anything else which no-one thought to include ...). PamD 11:00, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

Stalking from @Iruka13

• Iruka13 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

This is a continuation of various discussions happening on the Talk page of the user Iruka13.

I have been feeling harassed and stalked by this user for months now, figuring it was only me. Except, as is evidenced from that user's talk page, it ISN'T only me. As well as my post, @Netherzone has laid out their own harassment. Bear in mind both of our posts come AFTER the user was already banned for a week by @Star Mississippi for incivility to a different person entirely. I don't believe it's only us.

As laid out: one of my photos was tagged by @Iruka13 for deletion around 4 months ago. So fine. Except when asking why, or if the user had read any of the supporting material, I was met by threats to delete work I'd done on the site - plus varying degrees of condescension and bullying. This was largely on the talk page of a now deleted file. Since then, the same user has tagged files from me at regular intervals - many of which are for - at best - spurious reasons. The reason I say this is stalking is that these images aren't new. If there was a genuine issue, they could have *all* been tagged four months ago. Instead it's a drip-drip-drip. As an example, this file was tagged last week and deleted today. This was an image used on a page relating to art books, for which the primary feature is the size of the book. There was a regular sized book on top of the larger one showing this size. That's the point of the page. There are book covers all over this site - and I would argue this file had little difference to any of them. I believe it had the correct meta data.

If the file was correctly deleted, then OK. Except this file has been on the site for months. It wasn't new. The user could've tagged it months ago when tagging other files of mine. Instead, it's that steady stream of harassment. They never engage civilly, never explain, never offer any reasoning. Again, from the other comments on the user's Talk page, this practice of stalking, bullying, and condescension is seemingly not a one-off. I don't understand how there can be so much drama on a single six-week period of one person's Talk page. Especially when, apparently, the user has already been banned from Commons for similar destructive behaviour. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Peterspeterson (talk • contribs) 03:15, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Just dropping a link to my discussion with Iruka here. My block was less about whether they were technically correct, but their complete unwillingness and inability to edit in a collaborative environment despite a multitude of warnings. I have not followed up with further sanctions as at least one admin disagreed, and I haven't had the on wiki time to moderate this. My POV there and here is that being right isn't sufficient, and Iruka13 has to learn to play well with others if he's going to edit here. I am not sure whether this is a language barrier, but they've been told a number of times that their conduct is problematic. Star Mississippi 03:22, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

I'm also going to add from what I've seen at the deletion discussions (they've not targeted any of mine; I exclusively deal in copyleft media on Commons) that Iruka13 is frequently and obviously meritless in their nominations. A huge portion of them are very obviously spurious in a way that's comparable to Gish gallop and Brandolini's law, where the amount of energy required to nominate them is immensely lower than the amount required to refute them. I'm genuinely baffled that they've been getting away with this. If they were basically always correct and just being – pardon my French – an insufferable jackass about it, that would be one thing. It's another thing entirely, though, to take a birdshot approach to deletion noms knowing there will be zero repurcussions for whichever spuriously nominated ones survive the discussion because WP:AGF. It's literally just a technique aimed at exhausting the other party, and this bizarre edge case they're creating has made me think that we might actually need some sort of limit on the number of noms possible in a given time period. TheTechnician27 (Talk page) 03:33, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Can you provide the redlink to the "talk page of a deleted file" where you said that the harassment "largely" occurred? Administrators can view the content of a deleted page. :) MolecularPilot 03:26, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

I'd love to - but I don't know how to find a page that was deleted so long ago. I think it would have been around October 2024? Is there a way I can search this out? Peterspeterson (talk) 03:29, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

I am reproducing the comment from File talk:Kraven-comparison.jpg here:

Do you even know what is significant for an article and what is not? Where in authoritative sources is this distinction mentioned? Do you understand that I can demolish everything you wrote and I will be right? And let's be simpler, ok? — Ирука 23:18, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

voorts (talk/contributions) 03:36, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Yes! That's the comment. The "demolish everything you wrote" bit.

The same user has now been following me around for months. This is exactly the reason other users like @Netherzone feel unsafe. How is this allowed to go on? Peterspeterson (talk) 03:38, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

That conduct probably would have merited a temporary block in November, but I'm not going to block him based on that now without more evidence that it's part of a pattern. Regarding the same user has tagged files from me at regular intervals - many of which are for - at best - spurious reasons, could you please provide diffs (perhaps to talk page notices that you got) of spurious deletion nominations? voorts (talk/contributions) 03:43, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

It's the process of one after the other, after the other.

If there were genuine issues with images, why didn't Iruka tag them all back then? Instead, it's been a drip-drip-drip all the way up until today. This is why I feel harassed. The tagging isn't on new images.

As an example, this file was tagged last week and deleted today. This was an image used on a page relating to art books, for which the primary feature is the size of the book. There was a regular sized book on top of the larger one showing this size. That's the point of the page. There are book covers all over this site - and I would argue this file had little difference to any of them. I believe it had the correct meta data.

If the file was correctly deleted, then OK. Except this file has been on the site for months. It wasn't new. The user could've tagged it months ago when tagging other files of mine. Instead, it's that steady stream. Peterspeterson (talk) 03:47, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

My understanding is that stuff like that lead to Star Missicipi's 1 week block on the 10th of December. Has there been any conduct made you feel uncomfortable since their block expired, beyond nominating your images for deletion (indicating they might be watching which images you make) and them being deleted? :) MolecularPilot 03:44, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Jinx voorts, beat me too it! Had an edit conflict there (but forgot to add (edit conflict))! :) MolecularPilot 03:45, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Hi. Yes. This file was tagged last week and deleted today. This was an image used on a page relating to art books, for which the primary feature is the size of the book. There was a regular sized book on top of the larger one showing this size. That's the point of the page. There are book covers all over this site - and I would argue this file had little difference to any of them. I believe it had the correct meta data.

If the file was correctly deleted, then OK. Except this file has been on the site for months. It wasn't new. The user could've tagged it months ago when tagging other files of mine. Instead, it's that steady stream.

Basically, why would they suddenly decide to look at an image that had been up for months, on a whim? Peterspeterson (talk) 03:51, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

My guess would be that the user was looking through your file creations (which is not sanctionable conduct by itself) as they had found you to be, in their opinion, a creator of fair use files that may not meet our guidelines for free-use content and was seeing if there were any others to tag for deletion. If you don't agree with decision of the admin who chose to accept the CSD nom and delete the file, you can submit an appeal to WP:DRV. I'm not entirely sure what you want to be done here? Has there been any re-occurance of subpar communication like the above since the 17th of December? MolecularPilot 04:01, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

But that's exactly my point. All those files were already on Misplaced Pages at that previous time. If there was genuinely an issue, they could have all been tagged in one go.

Instead, it's tag a file, wait 2-3 weeks, tag another, wait 2-3 weeks, tag another. And repeat.

But why would anyone keep returning to those old images, from a single user, over and over and over?

That's why I feel harassed. Especially because - as with the image linked above - I don't believe there's an issue.

Plus, as pointed out by @TheTechnician27, tahere have been more than 150 image deletion nominations in the last two weeks alone. Peterspeterson (talk) 04:07, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Three* but nonetheless correct. TheTechnician27 (Talk page) 04:12, 14 January 2025 (UTC)e

Voorts, you just beat me to it--thanks. But let me add that Peterson doesn't look good either. What Iruka was responding to was this, " There's no point in people drive-bying these pages with that "needs image" tag if, when somebody tries to do something about it, a person *with zero knowledge of the subject matter* doesn't bother to do any reading before rejecting. This whole process is ridiculous." Drmies (talk) 03:39, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

I've undeleted that file talk page so non-admin watchers can see the whole exchange in context. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 03:42, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

I'm reading over a bunch of material, including their talk page. It's clear to me (and I think User:Pppery agrees) that many of their deletion nominations are correct. On the other hand, the way in which they go about things is deemed problematic by plenty of others, and I wonder if User:Bagumba, User:Zanahary, User:TheTechnician27, and User:Kingsif have any additional insight. Drmies (talk) 03:32, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Yeah, that matched my understanding, including them being usually (but by no means always) right on the merits but problematic in how they went about it. I don't really have the energy to spent more time analyzing this than I already have - the other admins watching this page can do what needs to be done and I don't think any further comments from me would be helpful. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 03:36, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Their nomination of File:Diab al-Mashi.png was not correct. The file had a nominally large pixel size, but was very compressed. When I removed their tag for the image to be shrunk, they nominated it for speedy deletion, which makes no sense and is clearly retaliatory. They tagged it as being an entire work uploaded when an excerpt would do, when they knew it was a single compressed frame from a 44 minute film. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 12:31, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

I wouldn't say that their tagging of the file for speedy deletion was totally incorrect and made no sense given the size of the original file that was uploaded; the close to Misplaced Pages:Files for discussion/2024 December 12#File:Diab al-Mashi.png and the closing administrator's removal of the {{Non-free no reduce}} template you added to the file's page and the closing administrator's re-adding of the the {{Non-free reduce}} template originally added by Iruka13. For reference, Voorts, who's an administrator, did !vote delete in the FFD, but for a different reason; the file ultimately was kept, but it was reduced. You disagreed with the tagging of the file for reduction by Iruka13 but, for some reason, don't seem to have an issue with the closing administrator who did exactly the same thing. -- Marchjuly (talk) 13:22, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

I forgot about that discussion. I don't think it makes me involved here, but I'm not planning on taking action at this point anyways. If any evidence of a continuing problem had been presented, as I've asked numerous times, I would have blocked, but the allegations of stalking are based on very thin evidence. voorts (talk/contributions) 14:36, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

@Marchjuly, you don’t know what I don’t have an issue with. I still think there was no reason for the bot reduction of the file. The relevance of the reduction tagging is in the fact that “this file should be kept and altered” cannot lead to “this file should be deleted” without some major change in opinion, which Iruka never explained—hence my belief that it was just a lashing-out, as I believe is evidenced by the fact that their tag alleging that the file interferes with the market role of the original work and that the still is a complete work from which an excerpt could be taken instead was completely false and never explained—still never explained, actually. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 18:01, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Four of your uploads (the one discussed above, File:True Panther logo.png, File:Teniky inner sandstone wall 1940-41.jpg and File:Déluge au Pays du Baas poster.jpeg) were all uploaded at sizes considered big enough to be tagged by a bot for reduction almost within a day of being uploaded. The file discussed here was tagged by a bot here, but you removed the tag here and added a "Non-free no reduce" template here; perhaps you thought that resolved things. Iruka13 removed the "Non-free free no reduce" template here asking for a reason, and you re-added it here. I'm guessing Iruka13 tagged the file because they felt re-adding the "Non-free reduce" template would've just been reverted again and led to accusations of edit warring. The file was tagged for speedy deletion per WP:NFCC#2 and WP:NFCC#3b, each of which are reasons related to WP:NFCC. You then started the discussion about the file, first on its talk page and then at FFD, and Iruka did respond on both pages. None of the above seems to seems (at least to me) to clearly indicate any type of retaliaton against you by Iruka13; rather, it seems like something not too uncommon when it comes to disagreements over non-free files, and it also seems to have been resolved as such. If you can demonstrate that Iruka13 did similar things with respect to your other file uploads or uploads by others, then that might indicate a pattern of some kind; their interaction with you, however, seems to have been civil and seems to have ended with the FFD. Finally, the "Criterion 3b, because an entire work is being used when a portion or a reduced-size copy would suffice" used in the {{di-fails NFCC}} template is boilerplate text added when a template's |3b= parameter is set as |3b=yes; so, that's the default option when using that template. Personally, I might've just skipped that template and gone to FFD instead, but different strokes for different folks, and, once again, I don't see tagging the file for speedy deletion as being a retaliatory act. Iruka13 can't delete files and any files they tag for speedy deletion are going to be ultimately reviewed by an administrator, and it's possible that the file would've ended up at FFD based on that review. If you've got issues with the bot tagging the file for reduction, the bot operator is probably the best person to express them to. Similarly, if you feel the FFD close was incorrect, you can follow WP:CLOSECHALLENGE. -- Marchjuly (talk) 20:25, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

> I'm guessing Iruka13 tagged the file because they felt re-adding the "Non-free reduce" template would've just been reverted again

And therein lies the point because you shouldn’t have to guess. Iruka could actually engage with editors on a polite, peer-to-peer, basis.

Instead, there is no engagement. It’s tag, move on; tag, move on - dozens of times a day, every day. And should anyone dare engage, they get wikilawyered, or threats such as:

> Do you understand that I can demolish everything you wrote

All from a user who, by their own admission, has multiple bans for harassment. Which is, at least from my standing, why I and others feel bullied and harassed. After all it is someone who’ll openly tell you that’s how they behave, knowing full well they get welcomed back to do it again. Peterspeterson (talk) 20:44, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

You cannot nominate a file for deletion because you think your tag is going to be removed. That is not a deletion rationale. I don’t care about establishing a pattern of behavior for this user—I’m just saying that they tagged a file for deletion because they got annoyed that their NFR tag got reverted, and that is a problem. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 02:23, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

You can, however, nominate or tag a non-free file for deletion if you feel it fails to meet allone of the ten non-free content use criteria. Iruka13 listed two criteria that they felt the non-free use failed; you disagreed with their assessment and the file ended up being discussed at FFD. That's a fairly common occurrence when it comes to disagreements over non-free use, and doesn't necessarily mean anyone was annoyed or trying to retaliate. The fact that the non-free file was kept but also reduced, also doesn't mean they were totally incorrect in their assessment, at least with respect to NFCC#3b. You posted above that I don't know what you have an issue with, yet you're quick to assume that Iruka13's tagging of the file just had to be done to get back at you. -- Marchjuly (talk) 03:16, 15 January 2025 (UTC); post edited. -- 03:01, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

There is an unexplained gap between putting a file in a queue to be altered and nominating it for deletion for failing two criteria (neither of which it failed—not a single other editor supported those arguments). My judgment is that this was done out of spite. That editor should feel free to correct me and explain himself. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 15:21, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

@Peterspeterson & @TheTechnician27: If I am going to take action, I need to see a post-block pattern of conduct. Please provide some form of evidence, such as diffs. voorts (talk/contributions) 03:54, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

My most recent issues relate to the file I linked above - here. This was tagged last week and deleted today.

Again, if the file was correctly deleted, then OK. Except this file has been on the site for months. It wasn't new. The user could've tagged it months ago when tagging other files of mine. Instead, it's the fifth or sixth(?) that's been tagged and deleted since that first one. Each a week or three apart.

Of course I feel stalked. None of these images are new. They could've all been tagged at the time.

Instead, it's drip-drip-drip.

On that one linked above, why would Iruka suddenly decide to look at an image that had been up for months on a whim? Unless it's because they're stalking. It's the same behaviour described by @Netherzone Peterspeterson (talk) 04:02, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

The instructions at the top of this page state: Be brief and include diffs demonstrating the problem (emphasis in original). I am not going to block someone without evidence. voorts (talk/contributions) 04:06, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

There's no way I could possibly fulfil what you ask.

The point is that instead of tagging multiple files for deletion in one go, the same user has tagged image files of mine one after the other. Tag for deletion, wait 2-3 weeks, tag, wait 2-3 weeks, tag.

I can't see the files *because they've been deleted*. What am I supposed to link you to?

Even if all the deletions were correct - and I'm not convinced that's true - how is this a legitimate way to act?

The harassment is that all these files were live when the first tag was made. Instead of highlighting any issues at the time, Iruka has been following me around the site for months. I'm not the only person saying this. Peterspeterson (talk) 04:13, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Looking at your talk page history, you received two deletion notifications on 12 November 2024 (one for an image that you uploaded that same date, and one for an image that you uploaded a few weeks prior), one on 22 November 2024 for the image you uploaded 12 November, one on 3 December 2024 for an image you uploaded in October, and one on 6 January for an image you uploaded in October.The 22 November nomination makes sense in context because it was originally nominated for lacking an adequate license per F4 on 12 November, which was remedied, and then Iruka came back ten days later to nominate it for lacking contextual significance. That leaves the nominations on 3 December and 6 January. Two nominations one month apart is not adequate evidence of stalking, in my opinion. voorts (talk/contributions) 04:43, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

I also note your responses to two of those notifications (both for files that were deleted):

• Special:GoToComment/c-Peterspeterson-20241112221900-Iruka13-20241112220600
• Special:GoToComment/c-Peterspeterson-20241203174700-Iruka13-20241203131300

voorts (talk/contributions) 04:49, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

OK @Voorts & @TheTechnician27- I think I have been able to find some sort of timeline to illustrate what I'm saying.

On 12 Nov, File:Kraven-comparison.jpg was nominated for deletion. I'd uploaded in the days before, so OK. Fair enough. I'm still not convinced by the merits of this deletion in regards to the point of the page and the image - but OK.

On 22 Nov, File:AvXduo.jpeg was nominated.

On 3 Dec File:Daredevilcomparison.jpeg was nominated.

On 6 Jan File:Galleryvprem.jpeg was nominated. This is the most dubious of all.

These four images were all there at the time of the first nomination. If there was genuinely an issue, they could have all been tagged at once.

Instead, it's four over two months - which comes directly after the message:

> Do you understand that I can demolish everything you wrote

Which is exactly what's happening. Spaced out, spurious nominations.

Why would a user suddenly return to look at a different user's work, weeks apart, unless they're stalking?

And, if it was only me, then maybe I'd put it down to paranoia. Except the user's Talk page has at least one other user saying a very similar thing.

I can't see the comments you've linked to btw - but believe it or not, when someone says

> Do you understand that I can demolish everything you wrote

and then starts doing it, it does tend to lead to incivility. Peterspeterson (talk) 04:52, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Just to add, by the user's own admission in 2023, they have

> 2.5 bans for harassing users on 3 projects

Link: User talk:Iruka13/Archives/2023#c-Iruka13-20230927154300-Marchjuly-20230927005100

That's in *their own words*. Peterspeterson (talk) 05:08, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

If there was genuinely an issue, they could have all been tagged at once. There's no rule that requires an editor to go through another editor's contributions and decide whether to nominate them for deletion all at once. There are also innocent explanations, such as not wanting to overwhelm someone with a dozen nominations all at once or not having the time.Regarding Netherzone's claim of stalking, Iruka's "laboratory" appears to be a place where they keep notes on files they intend to renominate for deletion at a later date.I am also well aware of the history of Iruka's blocks, but blocks can't be used to punish people for sins of the past. I see no evidence of stalking here and I won't be taking action. voorts (talk/contributions) 05:12, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

OK, so when another old file gets tagged with little justification in 2-3 weeks, can I message you again? What about 2-3 weeks after that?

I don't even know how I'm supposed to appeal / counteract the tag-tag-tag behaviour. I can't see any justification for the deletion of today's file and it's not as if Iruka ever gives any reason. Peterspeterson (talk) 05:20, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Iruka has provided reasons consistent with policies, guidelines, and practice. For example, File:Galleryvprem.jpeg was tagged with {{di-fails NFCC|date=6 January 2025|1=yes|8=yes}}. I've reviewed the fair use rationale that you provided and I believe that the file was properly deleted. voorts (talk/contributions) 05:36, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Does 170 image deletion noms since Christmas count as "a pattern of conduct"? Because I see this as effectively a Gish gallop where it's functionally impossible for most editors to meaningfully evaluate the merits of each one. Since non-free media has to meet a substantially higher standard for 'Keep' than for 'Delete', this means that 'Keep' voters need to take substantially more time per nom than the 'Delete' ones, and creating such a glut of noms severely and unfairly tips the balance in favor of a 'Delete' vote on average. TheTechnician27 (Talk page) 04:03, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Please provide diffs. voorts (talk/contributions) 04:10, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Appreciate the ask, because this made me realize that I was incorrect about the original figure. It's actually 210 since Christmas, or a bit over 10 per day. Edit history and then Ctrl+F "up for deletion" and "tagging for deletion". 170 noms; 40 CSDs. I want to clarify I've been absent from this since the original block, but this has to be absurd to keep up with for anyone at the discussions trying to argue to in good faith to preserve these images. TheTechnician27 (Talk page) 04:16, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

How many were declined by patrolling admins? How many were no permission tags where permissions were then added? An admin cannot block someone without evidence and I'm not going to dig through Iruka's contributions to look for it. voorts (talk/contributions) 04:23, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Ultimately I haven't been keeping up with the situation on a per-nom basis, and by nature of them consistently putting up over 1000 edits a month, I'm not going to be going through them except for macro-scale patterns. I was brought here for my perspective, and this is it: that Iruka is abusing the system by making an unprecedented amount of noms with little regard for merit (the noms I witnessed were immediately pre-block, thus as you said not qualifying here for post-block behavior) in order to make dubious noms on average more successful solely because they can't have as much individual time dedicated to them. It's a very obvious tactic, and I'm equal parts perplexed that there's no protection against this and yet unsurprised because there's likely never been anyone this unnaturally zealous to warrant it. I don't intend to go beyond what I was brought here to do for right now. TheTechnician27 (Talk page) 04:37, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

It's a very obvious tactic, I'm equal parts perplexed that there's no protection against this and yet unsurprised because there's likely never been anyone this unnaturally zealous to warrant it. Please do comment on other editors' motives without evidence. voorts (talk/contributions) 04:42, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Between more than one experienced editor accusing Iruka of stalking them, their "let someone else sort it out" attitude toward obvious, consequential mistakes they make, their argumentative behavior, their gross power-tripping attitude ("Do you understand that I can demolish everything you wrote and I will be right?" (also note the wikilawyering going on in that comment)), their ridiculous noms (including arguments like "just use a 3D model bro" or "a free alternative can reasonably exist because you can just get a basketball backboard and break it for an image bro" or "just offer to pay them money to put it under a free license it bro"; all pre-block, so I'm not bothering to dig it up), the absurd frequency of noms they create, and their indefinite block on Commons, all I'll say is that I assume good faith until an editor flushes that down the toilet. With that, I'm done here unless someone has a specific question for me. TheTechnician27 (Talk page) 04:55, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

"I have 2.5 bans for harassing users on 3 projects."

Kinda sounds like maybe this user does harass people, considering that's what they wrote *on their own page*.

https://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Iruka13/Archives/2023#c-Iruka13-20230927154300-Marchjuly-20230927005100 Peterspeterson (talk) 05:10, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

The stuff in this thread is basically de rigueur for this user: my past experiences with Iruka13 and file deletion have consisted of extremely bizarre wikilawyering, to the point where I felt like it bordered on deliberate trolling. I do not understand why this editor is permitted to waste so much of people's time with obviously vexatious nominations. jp×g🗯️ 06:46, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

I think the key element here is if the nominations were "obviously vexatious", I mean the ones that sparked this ANI were all accepted by the deleting admin, and were done 3 weeks apart to prevent looks of batch deleting a single user's pictures but still caused drama. I wonder if there's a tool on toolforge or smth to calculate accepted vs denied CSDs/FfD noms which may paint a better picture, but from a spot check I just did of both CSD and FfD this are mostly either accepted by the deleting admin or the raised issues are resolved. MolecularPilot 07:46, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

To my understanding this ANI is mainly about a) the volume of CSDs and FfDs and b) the user's laboratory. I don't think anyone is arguing that the nominations were actually meritless or vexatious, and those who said they were "wrong" may want to take that up with the deleting admin or WP:DRV because it's not like this user is mass-tagging and it's being declined... most of the time issues are resolved or the admin agrees and speedily deletes/the FfD closes as delete. MolecularPilot 07:48, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

> and were done 3 weeks apart to prevent looks of batch deleting a single user's pictures but still caused drama

You’ve guessed that this is their motivation - and your guess is equally as valid as my assertion that this is stalking.

In fact, much of various admins’ attempts at justification throughout this thread is guesswork - all of which has had to occur because Iruka does not engage with other users on a polite peer-to-peer basis. There is no “paper trail” to say “this is what they actually meant”. As has been evidenced and pointed out by multiple editors. Peterspeterson (talk) 11:52, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

If you continue to assert this is stalking with no evidence, I will block you for personal attacks. voorts (talk/contributions) 13:05, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Ok, I will simply ask you how do you know tags

> were done 3 weeks apart to prevent looks of batch deleting a single user's pictures but still caused drama

Have you guessed? Or has Iruka stated this anywhere? Peterspeterson (talk) 13:09, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

All of the files that he tagged that you uploaded were deleted. There is no rule that prohibits someone from nominating files for deletion spaced apart. At this point, it just feels like you're seeking revenge for that. voorts (talk/contributions) 14:30, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

You're guessing my intention the same way you're guessing Iruka's.

"Revenge" isn't my intention at all. Revenge for what? If the files were legitimately deleted, then fair enough. It doesn't matter to me.

However, the spacing of the reports felt - and feel - like harassment. (I'm being clear that it *felt* like harassment because I don't want to be banned for what you assert are personal attacks).

Even with that *feeling*, I would have moved on were it not for the fact that other people were reporting very similar things on the user's Talk page. And then, with a small amount of checking, it seems that Iruka has admitted to harassing other users at various points in the past. And, from what others have said, Iruka has already been banned on multiple occasions, from multiple places, for precisely that. (I don't actually know if this is true).

So my *feeling* of being harassed was in fact legitimised by others feeling the same - and apparent past behaviour. Hence this.

On the files being deleted, for that specific one here, it was the first time I'd experienced this sort of tagging. I didn't really know what to do with it.

The info page said to leave an explanation on the Talk page - which I tried to do.

I was then told:

> I can demolish everything you wrote

along with what I now know is 'wikilawyering'. You can see how I reacted:

> Who goes onto a page and says "I can demolish everything you wrote" and then cries about bad faith?!

Because from the info page, I assumed that when an admin came to look at that file to decide upon deletion, they would see that remark and do something with it. I didn't even know this ANI process existed then.

Except nothing was done. The admin either read Iruka's "demolish" response and decided it was acceptable, or didn't read it.

And, ever since then, Iruka has continued to target me at regular intervals, leaving me unsure what - if anything - to do.

You can guess that the targeting is to "prevent looks of batch deleting" - but it's still a guess. Iruka could've engaged civilly, in the same way they could with any other user who has reported a problem.

In the same way they could be on this thread right now explaining what's actually going on. If they did that, neither you or I would have to guess. Peterspeterson (talk) 14:51, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Please forgive the length of this. This discussion has gone a bit sideways, the issue is not whether Iruka13 is “correct” or not in their file tagging and file deletions, the problem is that their behavior is disturbing and upsetting a number of experienced, good-faith editors, myself included.

It is precisely the same conduct that got them blocked on Commons, Russian WP and Ukranian WP. Stalking may not be the right term for the behavior but I do believe there is deliberate harassment conducted by the editor. Misplaced Pages itself defines harassment as Harassment is a pattern of repeated offensive behavior that appears to a reasonable observer to intentionally target a specific person or persons. Usually, the purpose is to make the target feel threatened or intimidated, and the outcome may be to make editing Misplaced Pages unpleasant for the target, to undermine, frighten, or discourage them from editing. That is clearly the effect their behavior has had with multiple ediors.

Here is a synopsis of my interactions with this user and why I feel I have been harassed and made to feel upset and frightened to the point that I’ve virtually stopped editing.

1. I uploaded File:Zuni wolf fetish with medicine bundle and heartline, carved by Stuart Lasiyoo.jpg. After uploading I realized the size was too large for fair-use, and made a note of my error on the file talk page (I was unable to reduce it because I did not have access to Photoshop at the time). BTW, Zuni fetishes are ceremonial objects made by the Zuni tribe of Native Americans that are also sold as small sculptures; they have nothing to do with the sexualized notion of "fetish".

2. I received message about the file on my user talk. Diff: to which I responded and answered on the file talk page.

3. The discussion then resumed at the File talk page about the deletion nomination. Diff: use rationale where I explained my rationale for fair use. The editor then responded with: judging by the response you didn't look at them; right?, which I thought was rather rude to assume I don't read messages (which explains my response on my user talk page).

4. They then went on the argue with me in a mocking tone: But it is so. wow, your contribution is bigger than mine, it's not for me to tell you about it and wow_2, who am I telling this to?. I told them that their response did not seem very nice. They responded: What I was trying to say is that what I'm saying, you already know. You know better than me. / uploading this image boggles my mind. I think it was around this time that Star Mississippi warned the editor on their talk page.

5. After I wrote a more detailed rationale why the file was suitable as fair-use, they refused to answer my own simple question responding instead with: I can answer all the questions posed in this message. And I will, if it be necessary. But first, please answer the question - and, for the sake of the experiment, let's assume that all the images in that category are really unsuitable... and asked me an "experimental question" whether I could create from scratch a "completely free image", a proposal that would involve spending a large amount of money. Diff: As a volunteer editor, that seemed utterly absurd, and it became clear to me they were just yanking my chain.

6. I then noticed they were treating others in similar ways, for example asking editors to buy a glass basketball backboard shield specifically to then smash it with a rock after installing a camera specifically to create a fair use image. Diffs: (uploaded by Left guide) ]. This clearly seemed they were wikilawyering and arguing for the sake of argument with the intent to annoy and intimidate others. I think it was around this time that Star Mississippi issued a short block.

7. I then noticed on their user page a link to their “Laboratory”, which creeped me out because the strange “experimental questions” seemed like mind-games. I noticed that not only was there an entry for the Zuni fetishes file, but that some of it was actually written in “invisible ink” using the < ! -- template, and included a a number of my file uploads. Diff from January 2: and . I know that being creepy is not a blockable offense but it scared the daylights me, because I have been Wiki-stalked not only online, but in real life.

8. I directly asked them to STOP following me around. Instead they created a user sub-page, replacing all the images with 19th century inaccurate illustrations, romanticized representations of the art of Zuni tribe Native Americans by none other than an ethnographer who looted artifacts from the Zuni people. Diff: I again demanded that they STOP and I quit editing. I refuse to be someone's "experimental laboratory" subject, that is disturbingly creepy.

9. If this is considered “normal” behavior by administrators, well, then after 13 years of editing, I’m out of here. I can not and I will not have a hobby as a volunteer editor in a place where I feel unsafe and harassed, especially from a single-purpose editor with a long history of such behavior – no matter if their tagging or deletions are “correct.” Netherzone (talk) 20:56, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

I'm not going to respond point by point here, but I don't think the uncivil interactions with you are "normal" behavior. The issue is that Iruka was already blocked for that conduct and I still don't see how the pages Iruka created in his userspace – which did not mention you by name and which he did not notify you of – are harassment. If Iruka starts being uncivil again or starts harassing people, I'll be the first to indef him. voorts (talk/contributions) 22:55, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

The issue seems to be that the behavior Netherzone mentions has been experience by multiple other users. This appears to be a pattern of inappropriate behavior spread out over quite some time. And quite honestly, the "laboratory" really does strike me as creepy behavior intended to needle other editors. — The Hand That Feeds You: 17:57, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

The only two editors I have seen complain about stalking are Netherzone and Peterspeterson. I've asked multiple times for evidence that Iruka's file deletion nominations are largely incorrect, but the only evidence provided thus far have been files that other admins have seen fit to delete and contested FFD discussions. In my view, this complaint seems largely based on vibes and conduct preceding the block. voorts (talk/contributions) 18:04, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

• Having been pinged to this, my experience and another thread I saw suggests to me that the user really wants to delete things - not just that they are being gnomish in the area of deletion for the benefit of Misplaced Pages, no, that they actively want to delete stuff and be uncivil to those who do not share this philosophy. In this way, they seem to mass search for anything that could have a valid reason to delete, even if another another option is better or, as in what drew my attention, even if they have to make up some reason why a file meets deletion rationale when it doesn’t. That is another issue: while their deletion noms may be generally correct because they are seeking out files with issues, their tagging of files that only need reduction to be deleted, their tagging of Commons-eligible files, and their bizarre suggestion to purchase an iage license as proof of owenership, strike me as someone who does not understand Misplaced Pages or Commons policy very well and does not care if understanding will get in the way of their tagging g. ULtimately, the poor tags that may not get chance to be corrected, and rejectiong collaboratoon, negate any positive of being the first person to tag some bad files and thus make the user’s contributions in deletion a net negative for WP. I am struggling just to type this on mobile so can’t or provide diffs atm. Kingsif (talk) 12:22, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

I was pinged above by Drmies. I'm not going to read this whole case. I'll briefly say that my main interaction with Iruka13 was at Misplaced Pages:Files for discussion/2024 November 28 § File:Backboard shattering.jpeg. I'm not an FFD regular, but I get the sense that these arguments they used were not mainstream:

• Telling the uploader to buy the non-free image themselves and donating it for free.
• Using AI/3D editors as free replacements.

Those did not gain consensus at that FFD. If they are continuing these arguments, and have not gained community support, it would be disruptive and a WP:TBAN might be reasonable. WP:AGF is a guideline, so its hard to gauge what part of their communication can be attributed to English not being their primary language and perhaps lacking the gentleness and politeness that are common in some English-speaking cultures, versus what's an actual harassing, wikilawyering tone. For example, they said: And of course we can't buy the rights to the photo. We have to steal it. Later, they claimed: I decided here, in case the discussion is closed by , to buy the rights to the photo. But they should also become aware of others' reactions as well, and take measures to adjust.—Bagumba (talk) 12:28, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

The shattered backboard file was discussed and the consensus was to keep it; so, FFD seems to have worked as it's intended to work. For reference, two others !voted to delete the file in that FFD; so, that means at least two others agreed with Iruka13's assessment. Iruka13 might have a hard time expressing themselves in English if that's not their first language, and some of their arguments might be perplexing: personally, I wouldn't try the "buy the rights and donate the image" line of argument; however, the question here with respect tagging/nominateing files for deletion is (at least in my opinion) not whether Iruka13 is being a nuisance, but rather whether they're wrong so much more than they're right to the point that being that being wrong is causing things to seriously breakdown. The behavioral and poor communication issues and probably need to be addressed, but those things aren't limited to files; if those things are the real problem, then a t-ban/restriction related to files makes little sense to me. I don't see their assessment of files with respect to relevant policies as being perfect, but I also don't see it as being as bad as some posting above are claiming. -- Marchjuly (talk) 21:31, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

User:Citation bot won't stop adding incorrect dates to articles

Citation bot keeps adding incorrect dates to articles. I have counted that they have done it to 146 references across 8 articles. I posted a comment on User talk:Citation bot#Incorrect reference dates, however they readded the 26 dates I removed in addition to the another 120 incorrect dates after I posted the notice on the talk page. This behaviour is chronic and intractable. Another 34 were added by someone else, removed by me and but then Citation bot readded them.

Diffs:

• https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=7th_Parliament_of_Ontario&curid=11501903&diff=1269371926&oldid=1269300288
• https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Hepburn_ministry&curid=78528489&diff=1269371606&oldid=1268421348 (These dates were originally added by someone else, removed by me, and readded by Citation bot)
• https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=5th_Parliament_of_Ontario&curid=9911824&diff=1269374626&oldid=1268656609
• https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Eves_ministry&curid=78284361&diff=1269377523&oldid=1269310383
• https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=2nd_Parliament_of_Ontario&curid=5152009&diff=1269388366&oldid=1268657559
• https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=6th_Parliament_of_Ontario&curid=11117778&diff=1269389565&oldid=1269066036
• https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=1st_Parliament_of_Ontario&curid=1184147&diff=1269390737&oldid=1268415078 (These dates were originally added by someone else, removed by me, and readded by Citation bot)
• https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=4th_Parliament_of_Ontario&diff=prev&oldid=1269345172
• https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Eves_ministry&diff=prev&oldid=1258325773 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Legend of 14 (talk • contribs) 14:40, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Citation bot is an automated process, and not a human. E_F 14:45, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Yes, but that doesn't make it infallible. Phil Bridger (talk) 14:51, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Fair, I'm pointing that out because the report makes it come off as disruptive behavior from a user not heeding to talk page warnings. Either way I'll step back, as I was just noting that. E_F 14:54, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

You can add this to the page in question – {{bots|deny=Citation bot}} – or you can add this to a specific citation – {{cite web <!-- Citation bot bypass--> |last=Smith |first=John |year=2018 |...}} – to keep the bot away. See -- Stopping the bot from editing. Isaidnoway (talk) 16:09, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

I have gone through the 8 articles in question and added the suggested template. I also found out since posting the notice that Citation bot did the behaviour again with another 2 citations on Ludlow Massacre, see https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Ludlow_Massacre&diff=prev&oldid=1269411373. I also added the template to that article as well. But this is a problem, but it is very clear that articles aren't being proactively templated, nor should they have to be. Legend of 14 (talk) 16:29, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Citation Bot is an automated script that just does what people tell it to do. Who invoked the bot is in the edit summary. If someone repeatedly caused messes by invoking Citation Bot, explicitly refused to clean up those messes, and continued on over the objections of others, you'd have a case. But you'd have to show evidence of that in the form of a diff. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 16:22, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Citation bot is not a user script, but rather an account. All users are accountable for the edits which they attach their names to, including bots. Here diffs showing certain dates added by citation bot were already added and removed:

• https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Hepburn_ministry&diff=prev&oldid=1268421348
• https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=1st_Parliament_of_Ontario&diff=prev&oldid=1268415078

"All policies apply to a bot account in the same way as to any other user account."

-WP:Bot policy Legend of 14 (talk) 16:42, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

That's not relevant. You should be dealing with the person who is using the bot, not asking us just to sanction the bot itself. — The Hand That Feeds You: 19:39, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Most of these seem to have been invoked by Abductive, and involve misinterpreting the date when a politician was first elected as a citation date. Abductive, can you comment? Phil Bridger (talk) 16:37, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Sure, I can answer in the abstract. I ran the bot on Category:Articles lacking reliable references from January 2025. It appears that one of those unreliable primary sources was incorrectly set up by a Canadian government employee (Personal attack removed). Citation bot took the site at its word, and filled in the date as specified. Normally, Misplaced Pages editors file a bug report on Citation bot's talk page, and one of the maintainers will fix the problem (and usually make a special run of the bot to undo the damage). This takes something less than 100 hours, if I had to give an estimate. Abductive (reasoning) 17:53, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Hmm, I'm not sure you should be calling anyone a known alcoholic without a citation, but, anyway, thanks for your explanation. Phil Bridger (talk) 18:06, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

I have counted that Citation bot has added another 6 bad dates to 5 new articles:

• https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Shaari_Zedek_Synagogue&oldid=1269639133
• https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=13th_Regiment_Armory&diff=prev&oldid=1269640054
• https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Weeksville,_Brooklyn&diff=prev&oldid=1269639369
• https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Prospect_Plaza_Houses&diff=prev&oldid=1269638875
• https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Albert_Gurule&diff=prev&oldid=1269638493

Current count: 14 articles, 154 bad dates.

These edits were suggested by the following user:

• User:Whoop whoop pull up

Legend of 14 (talk) 17:51, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Found another bad date in another article:

• https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Henri_de_Toulouse-Lautrec&diff=prev&oldid=1269643198 suggested by User:Abductive

Total count: 15 articles, 155 bad dates. Legend of 14 (talk) 18:06, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Found another bad date in another article:

• https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Yusuf_Zuayyin&diff=prev&oldid=1269657597 (Nothing to support January reference)

Suggested by user:

• User:Abductive

Counts: 16 articles, 156 bad dates Legend of 14 (talk) 19:19, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

It seems to recall that this issue has been brought up before--nothing to do with Citation bot, more of a general librarian thing, and January is given as the default. It is best to address these issues more generally rather than finding more examples which may not even be incorrect. Abductive (reasoning) 19:30, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

User:Citation bot is litterally behind the diff in question. How can you say this has, "nothing to do with Citation bot". Legend of 14 (talk) 19:39, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Because it is not necessarily an error. Abductive (reasoning) 19:44, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

It is still about Citation bot. Legend of 14 (talk) 19:48, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Found another bad date in another article. This one is really bad, since the right date was literally in the URL. I also have no idea how the bot got a date from a dead URL either. https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Strange_Little_Birds&diff=prev&oldid=1269648525, suggested by User:Spinixster. Legend of 14 (talk) 19:34, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

That source appears to be a dead website. There is no way to check the actual date in the metadata. (I am told that Citation bot checks the metadata of the source website.) Abductive (reasoning) 19:44, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

You have given the operators less than one day to reply to you. This is insanely premature for an issue with one website (ola.org). Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 16:56, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

It is also an issue with tps.cr.nps.gov. (https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Ludlow_Massacre&diff=prev&oldid=1269411373) 9 Articles, 148 errors after I posted on the talk page. If a user continues the same disruptive behaviour, especially to the extent Citation bot has, after a notice on their talk page, what else can I do? Legend of 14 (talk) 17:04, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

• Editors who active bots are expected to check the results to see if they are accurate, as they are often not. You can see here the first time the bot was run on the page, and the editor noticed the wrong dates and removed them, so it's unclear why Abductive thought it was a good idea to activate the bot on the same page and make the same mistakes, and then not check the bots edits. Isaidnoway (talk) 17:30, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

With one request I ran the bot on all 858 pages in the Category:Articles lacking reliable references from January 2025. This is a maintenance category, and one should expect issues to arise sometimes. Abductive (reasoning) 17:56, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Did you check all 858 diffs personally, or even spot-check them? You are responsible for the bot edits you initiate and should not just run the bot blindly assuming it will be accurate. —David Eppstein (talk) 18:08, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Sure, I spot check sometimes. The work Citation bot does is indispensable, and more resources should be allocated to it. Until that happens, editors need to pitch in, remove faulty primary sources, make corrections, and file bug reports. Abductive (reasoning) 18:21, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Citation bot is not indispensable, neither are editors. Start checking your edits after using this bot, if that means you have to run smaller batches, then do that. Isaidnoway (talk) 18:49, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

"All users directing a bot must have the required skill and knowledge to ensure their actions are within community consensus."

-WP:Bot policy

WP:Citing sources is the relevant consensus in this case, and it wasn't followed. Don't use bots which you cannot or will not ensure they follow consensus. Thanks. Legend of 14 (talk) 18:54, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

It would be best if the bad source was removed, per WP:RS and WP:PRIMARY. There is a very strong consensus that Citation bot is an important tool used to build the Encyclopedia, despite its occasional errors. Every now and then, users such as yourself get upset, but that is not constructive. Abductive (reasoning) 19:04, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

I find your attitude a little cavalier. You admit up above that your edits caused damage, bu then instead of volunteering to help clean up the mess you made, you think other editors should file reports, let the maintainers of the bot fix the issue, and then run the bot again and hope like hell it is accurate. How about just committing to cleaning up your mistakes. Isaidnoway (talk) 19:10, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

I didn't say I wouldn't remove the bad source. Abductive (reasoning) 19:16, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Can you quote the part of WP:RS which you believe would justify the removal of the source in question in e.g. this diff? Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 21:56, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Re: "editors need to pitch in, remove faulty primary sources, make corrections, and file bug reports": No. YOU need to find and make the corrections rather than pushing the work off to other editors, because you are the one causing the work to need doing. When you make work for other editors, you are impeding the progress of the encyclopedia by taking away their time from other more useful contributions. —David Eppstein (talk) 19:12, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

That's what editors do. Again, I didn't say I wouldn't remove the bad source. But this ANI report was complaining about User:Citation bot, not User:Abductive. Abductive (reasoning) 19:16, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

While the original report was poorly aimed, this is ultimately a report about your use of the bot. Would be best to treat it that way. — The Hand That Feeds You: 19:40, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

You are the one who directed Citation bot to undertake the majority of the conduct described in the notice. You've been templated. Your conduct is being discussed here, as well as the conduct of Citation bot. The message for you is not to remove references from articles with onesource tags or sections of articles with onesource tags as is the case for the 8 articles you directed the bot to change, but rather to not direct bots to breach consensus. Legend of 14 (talk) 19:43, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

WP:BOTACC specifically says The contributions of a bot account remain the responsibility of its operator, whose account must be prominently identifiable on its user page. In particular, the bot operator is responsible for the repair of any damage caused by a bot which operates incorrectly. All policies apply to a bot account in the same way as to any other user account. Bot accounts are considered alternative accounts of their operator. To ensure compliance with WP:BOTCOMM, IP editors wishing to operate a bot must first register an account before operating a bot. E_F 19:51, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Check my most recent edits. It seems to me that this issue is now resolved. Abductive (reasoning) 19:54, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

This looks like a claim that you went back and fixed all the mess you made, but that was not the case. For instance, you had not fixed the first diff, on the 7th Parliament. I did it, after you added this comment. You still haven't fixed the one on the 5th Parliament. I haven't checked the others but I suspect more of your mess is still there. —David Eppstein (talk) 06:21, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

5th Parliament of Ontario was fixed before I got there, by somebody adding the deny template. I suspect that you, due to your general frustrations with Citation bot, see a chance to effect change here. Best to work on those other concerns directly. Abductive (reasoning) 18:44, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

I suspect that you, due to your general frustrations with Citation bot, see a chance to effect change here. Best to work on those other concerns directly. I don't know about you but this sounds pretty close to WP:ASPERSIONS to me... - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 22:19, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

5th Parliament was NOT fixed before you got there. Someone added the deny template but did not undo the bot mistakes on the article. Abductive, as the editor responsible for those mistakes, please go through and undo them.

As for "your general frustration with citation bot", please do not make ad hominem and incorrect assumptions about other editors' beliefs. In fact I think citation bot, when properly supervised, is very useful. 99% of the time it does the right thing, and many references in many of our articles are better because of it. But when it is doing the wrong thing 1% of the time, very many times per second, it can very quickly spread mistakes across the encyclopedia. That is why it needs to be properly supervised. If I am exhibiting any frustration here, it is not with the bot, but with the people who invoke it but do not properly supervise it and will not take responsibility for the problems they cause. —David Eppstein (talk) 23:15, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

I see what happened there. A user added the deny template but didn't undo the bot's edit. This makes it impossible for the bot to go back through after it has been updated and correct the errors. Abductive (reasoning) 04:09, 16 January 2025 (UTC) moved down from the middle of the above comment (original diff). – 2804:F1...CF:5599 (::/32) (talk) 17:03, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

So fix them manually. You do know how to edit without using a bot, right?? Isaidnoway (talk) 04:27, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

I disagree with the issue being resolved: https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#c-Legend_of_14-20250115180600-Legend_of_14-20250115175100. Legend of 14 (talk) 19:10, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Unsupervised bot and script use has damaged thousands of articles. If anyone wants to pitch in and help fix 2022 deaths in the United States (July–December).... XOR'easter (talk) 22:03, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

We're into the second batch of ReferenceExpander edits to check and clean up. Yes, damage has persisted from 2022. XOR'easter (talk) 00:34, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

I think the problem of mass-bot usage without checking results is much bigger than just this user and bot. I filed a similar complaint to Whoop whoop pull up two weeks ago (read here) about mass-bot usage that was f***ing up, after which WWPU shirked their responsibility to check the results, pushed me to file a report about the bot, and said the bot owners would fix it (I don't believe that)—meanwhile they have continued to launch bot batches from top-level Categories affecting thousands of articles. Another user lodged a similar complaint to WWPU yesterday at User talk:Whoop whoop pull up § Checking IABot runs.   ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 18:17, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

So, what we seem to have here is that bot writers blame things on the people who invoke their bots, but that the person invoking it seems to pass the buck to the bot. Both should take reponsibility, not, as is the case here neither. Ever since the early days of Misplaced Pages we mere mortals seem to have had to worship at the altar of the infallible bot. Phil Bridger (talk) 20:05, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

WP:BOTP is unclear about who counts as the "operator" of a bot available for use by any user through a public-facing interface; it appears to have been written with the assumption that the person who directs a bot to run will only ever be the same person who's developing and maintaining it.

• Possibility 1: the bot's maintainer counts as the operator. Evidence in support:
  • WP:BOTACC says, in part, "The contributions of a bot account remain the responsibility of its operator, whose account must be prominently identifiable on its user page" (emphasis added), implying that who counts as the operator is the person(s) identified on its userpage (i.e., the user, or team thereof, who develop and maintain the bot).
  • BOTACC also says "Bot accounts are considered alternative accounts of their operator". If the bot's operator was the person directing it to run on one or more pages, then, for publicly-accessible bots, this would represent a shared account in violation of WP:ROLE. Now, ROLE does have a bot exception ("Role account exceptions can be made for approved bots with multiple managers", emphasis added), but the way that exception's worded seems to pretty-clearly imply that this's meant to apply to bots that're developed and maintained by a team of people (rather than ones that can be used by multiple people).
  • Bots such as InternetArchiveBot and Citation bot were developed, and approved, with functionality allowing virtually any user to launch batch runs large enough (up to 5,000 pages at a time for IABot, with admins getting to run batches of up to 50,000 pages, and up to 3,850 pages at a time for Citation bot) to make it completely impossible for a human user to manually check each individual edit made by one of these bots (especially given that these bots run far faster than any human user). If one of these bots has a bug which causes it to make erroneous edits to a large number of pages, the only people with the capability to correct this are the bot's maintainers, who can do so by patching the bot's bug and rerunning it over the previous batches to clean up its own prior mess. Thus, if the bot's operator was intended to refer to any user who runs the bot, this would mean that these bots were approved despite having functionality that would, if used, make compliance with BOTACC's terms impossible; in contrast, if this was meant to refer to the users who develop and maintain the bot, then these bots' publicly-accessible large-batch functionality would be perfectly fine as far as BOTACC's concerned. If we operate (no pun intended) under the assumption that the people who approved these bots were not deliberately disregarding BOTACC, then the fact that they were, in fact, approved implies that this approval was given with the understanding that the people who would count as the bot's operator(s) would be its developers and maintainers, not the users running it via its public interface.
  • WP:BOTCOMM seems to imply that inquiries and complaints should be handled on the bot's talk page (either locally or on another Wikimedia project accessible through unified login), which makes rather more sense if the person responsible for the bot is intended to be its developer/maintainer, rather than whatever user directs the bot to run on a particular page.
  • WP:BOTREQUIRE says, in part, "In order for a bot to be approved, its operator should demonstrate that it: ", again implying that the operator in question is meant to refer to the bot's developer (the one with the power to actually make the bot demonstrate those things), rather than its end user.
  • WP:BOTCONFIG provides a list of features that bot operators may be encouraged to implement; these features are universally ones that only a bot's developers and maintainers have the ability to implement, implying that these people (rather than the end users who run these bots) are the operators referred to.
• Possibility 2: anyone who uses the bot's public interface to run the bot on one or more pages counts as the operator. Evidence in support:
  • WP:BOTMULTIOP says, in part, "Competence: All users directing a bot must have the required skill and knowledge to ensure their actions are within community consensus", seeming to place the onus for edits made using bots such as IABot and Citation bot on the users who direct the bots to make these edits (although this would then also seem to imply that the above-mentioned large-batch functionality of these bots was approved despite the fact that this would make compliance with this provision impossible, as the skill required for a human end user to be able to ensure that would include superhuman speed and endurance).

Whoop whoop pull up 20:17, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Based on what you provided, operators in Bot policy refers to maintainers, however the part about competence creates an obligation any user that directs a bot. I hope this clears up any uncertainty about the Bot policy.

"Both should take reponsibility"

-Phil Bridger at https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#c-Phil_Bridger-20250115200500-Grorp-20250115181700 Legend of 14 (talk) 20:25, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Then why were the bots approved with functionality the use of which no human director of the bot would be capable of manually checking? Whoop whoop pull up 21:28, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

I was not involved in the approval process, so I can't say. This discussion is not about the bot approval process in general, please direct your inquiries elsewhere.

Policy is very clear, don't direct bots in a way which you cannot ensure their actions are within community consensus. Legend of 14 (talk) 21:36, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

WWPU: The 'operator' of a bot is the one who invokes it. That anyone, owner, or concensus has made it possible for a bot to be launched to run wild through thousands of Misplaced Pages article doesn't diminish or dilute the primary axiom of an editor being responsible for edits one makes or causes. These bots can only read from the underlying code of the webpages they are checking against. Picking up wrong dates, following hard-coded redirects to 404 error pages, and other oddities is par for the course... for which I don't blame the bot or the bot-maintainer. When I run such bots, I check every change the bot makes.   ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 00:40, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Running a bot on so many pages that it's virtually inevitable there will be a mistake doesn't absolve an editor of responsibility for that mistake. XOR'easter (talk) 00:37, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

Or, as the same page quoted above puts it: Human editors are expected to pay attention to the edits they make, and ensure that they do not sacrifice quality in the pursuit of speed or quantity. For the purpose of dispute resolution, it is irrelevant whether high-speed or large-scale edits that a) are contrary to consensus or b) cause errors an attentive human would not make are actually being performed by a bot, by a human assisted by a script, or even by a human without any programmatic assistance. No matter the method, the disruptive editing must stop or the user may end up blocked. XOR'easter (talk) 02:12, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

Citation bot has not been approved with functionality the use of which no human director of the bot would be capable of manually checking. Its approved BRFAs are listed with summaries at User:Citation bot § Bot approval. None of these covers "batching Citation bot against multi-hundred-member maintenance categories", which is functionality added outside the official approval channel.But whether the functionality has consensus is not as relevant as operator diligence.If you can't review your runs, don't perform the runs. Folly Mox (talk) 17:03, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

You are responsible for every edit you make, regardless of whether it is manually or by bot. If you don't want to check the results after using a bot, then stop using the bot. Isaidnoway (talk) 20:55, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

☝🏽It's unclear what value is added by blindly running an automated script against maintenance categories with multiple hundreds of members, and not checking the edits you've caused to see if you've introduced errors.I'm not sure exactly what the solution is here: repeatedly exhorting Citation bot's most QA-averse operators (two of whom are present in this thread) to review their edits doesn't seem to have had an effect.Citation bot – as I always hasten to mention – does a lot of good work. It also edits at such a high volume that it's impossible for non-operators to keep up with its non-negligible error rate. It also operates largely outside the BRFA structure, performing many tasks the maintainers have kindly added upon suggestion, which may or may not have community consensus.Rate-limiting Citation bot runs sounds like a great solution, but I'm not able to estimate the development costs of such a feature, and not sure if the maintainers would be willing to code it up. Implementing community-accessible per-task toggles to disable particular types of edits pending bugfixes— this may also be a possibility, but again dependent on maintainer interest.I'm not convinced this is necessarily the best venue for this discussion (unless a subsection arises proposing sanctions against Abductive or others for irresponsible bot operation, which I don't intend to initiate), but it's probably time for a centralised discussion somewhere specifically related to Citation bot, its remit, and its operation. Courtesy ping AManWithNoPlan, the script's most diligent maintainer, whom I don't see pinged here yet. Folly Mox (talk) 02:17, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

I second the above suggestions. I would like to see these bots limited to 1 article at a time (or a few hand-typed article titltes), and disallow running huge batches (especially by category) except with specific user permissions (given only to those with a history of running the bots and checking the results.   ▶ I am Grorp ◀ 03:25, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

The easiest rate limit implementations I can imagine would be requiring some special permission for batching Citation bot over entire categories, or limiting non-privileged operators to some fixed number of Citation bot activations in some timeframe. Either would require some differentiation between user access levels, and a subroutine to identify the suggestor at runtime (which sometimes doesn't happen even by the edit summary).However, I'm not familiar with any of the codebase, so I'm not sure how much work anything like this would require, and I'm sure the script's maintainers would prefer to spend their time improving Citation bot's operation rather than securing it from irresponsible operators.Maybe we really should take a harder look at community sanctions for high-volume operators with a background of persistently leaving their edits unreviewed. While script misuse can easily cause widespread damage, and it's preferable to have some level of control within the software, at root the problem is the behaviour of those who misuse the script, publishing without review. The maintainers shouldn't necessarily be burdened with the work of protecting their tool from misuse.Still traumatised by (and lately working to clean up after) ReferenceExpander, Folly Mox (talk) 16:48, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

" make it completely impossible for a human user to manually check each individual edit made by one of these bots" Going to chime in here as someone who went a bit IA bot crazy last month, in order to fix dead links within a certain neglected topic area. Generally speaking, AI bot doesn't run as crazy fast as you insinuate. Most edits on short articles are single dead link tags or archives added, which are very quick to check, in larger articles it naturally can be multiple citations tagged or changed, but this also takes more time to run (it's all proportionate). I'm also factoring in articles that are checked by the bot but remain unchanged, that is anywhere between 10-90% depending on when the bot last run, which usually gives you time to catch up reviewing. Case and point, if you are quick enough, you definitely can keep up with the bot, but you do have to do on the ball and very "tuned in" as I'd put it. Personally, after reviewing around a hundred or so edits, I realised it was pretty low-key problematic (occasionally reverting other users edits in error etc). Personally I found it easy to identify when AI bot was doing more bad than good, as the character count would be negative rather than positive, but this was generally running over stubs and starts than fully developed articles. I was otherwise spot checking the worst affected link rot articles, in order to retrospectively include archive to avoid further dead links, which I'd personally recommend as a great balance of keeping an eye on the automated edits and retrospectively adding archives where it'd clearly be useful as a preventative measure. Very occasionally did I find issues, much less than 1%, but this was also a different topic area than described above. Not sure if that's helpful comment, but I resent the idea that you can't keep up with a batch of 1,000+ articles (I find this personally insulting as someone who is more than capable, to be clear, even if it's unlikely I'd engage in that again). Personally, I also avoided going over this limit as it's a solid 4-6 hours stint of reviewing. Now to point out the obvious, if you are not capable of reviewing the bot in real-time due to competence issues or otherwise, than reduce your batch load. CNC (talk) 01:32, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

The dates come from https://en.wikipedia.org/api/rest_v1/#/Citation/getCitation I have added that website to the list of bogus Zotero dates. AManWithNoPlan (talk) 16:46, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

Thank you for your attention in this matter 🙏🏽 Folly Mox (talk) 16:51, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

A bizare editing war on the trotskyist organization list

NO ACTION NEEDED Permanent debate among permanent revolutionaries. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 23:58, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

• List of Trotskyist organizations by country (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

In the last 24 hours some strage editing war seem to have taking place on the following page trying to remove or change it's content:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/List_of_Trotskyist_organizations_by_country DiGrande (talk) 19:47, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

This looks like a content dispute. As ever, it should be addressed by reliable sources (which usually don't include social media sites) and talk page discussion. Phil Bridger (talk) 20:17, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

These edit wars occur fairly regularly on articles related to these groups as there is a lot of in-fighting and division among members, former members and interested parties especially regarding the lineage of Trotskyist and communist organizations. If you are concerned and it continues, you can open a report at WP:ANEW and please notify the involved editors when you open complaints like this. Liz 21:54, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

Communist organisations taking chunks out of one another? Well, I never — Czello 22:01, 14 January 2025 (UTC)

To be fair, there is nothing more insulting than being incorrectly called a Trotskyist. voorts (talk/contributions) 01:32, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Yes, this oddity appears to likely be Stalinist splinters trolling each other by adding their rivals to the list of Trotskyist groups. _signed, Rosguill 01:49, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

I don't know if this is really bizarre -- I'd say "Trotskyist organizations getting into petty internecine conflict" is about as predictable as, oh, someone already made this exact same comment. jp×g🗯️ 06:42, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

The disputes between The People's Front of Judea, The Judean People's Popular Front, The Campaign for a Free Galilee, and The Popular Front of Judea? Narky Blert (talk) 08:32, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:PEPSI697 bad faith towards editors, misuse of tools

• PEPSI697 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I believe this editor has a history of assuming bad faith towards other editors and has been misusing tools designed to revert vandalism; their judgement has repeatedly been clouded by personal vendettas and feelings, which in my opinion is not appropriate for an editor to have, especially one with rollback rights.

My history with this editor started on December 24 2024, when I left him (and another editor) a message for edit warring - he was getting close to three reverts, the other editor appeared to not be vandalizing the article (they were putting a formula in the lead, it was a chemistry article) so I simply encouraged them to talk it out - I did not know at that point that the other editor was a LTA. I did not intend this message to be bad faith either, shortly after I sent that message another person made a discussion on the talk page about the addition of the formula in the lead. Pepsi responded to and then removed the warning from his talk page, absolutely fine. Then, he leaves me this message, saying I did something to make him angry and that he expected an apology from me. I was really confused, it's bit weird and out of nowhere to demand an apology from someone, and I didn't understand what exactly was the issue, the warning of edit warring was not left in bad faith but an honest attempt to get two editors to discuss and reach a consensus. This was the first time I became aware of his assumption of bad faith and his problem with anger; nonetheless, I don't want drama so I wish him merry Christmas, he wishes me, everything is fine.

Since then however, he has had incidents where he reverts my edit reverting vandalism/disruptive editing with the edit summary "No", and then reverts that edit saying "Sorry". I get making a from mistake time to time, but doing so repeatedly? I also don't really understand how he makes such mistakes, unless he immediately goes to the edit history of the page and undos the latest edit without even looking, but I digress. Examples of it happening to me: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, to name a few. It happens so frequently, I really believe this is just bad faith towards me and he is hounding my edits. It almost exclusively happens to me, which is why I doubt this is a mistake, but it has happened in few other instances; these are the other instances I could find, also happening to occur to just one editor (Augmented Seventh): 1, 2, 3. I have only looked at his past 1,500 edits, but I am sure there are many more examples; the most recent one is from today, January 15.

I decided to make this incident report following an incident that happened today. 10 minutes after I left a level 1 warning on a user's talk page, Pepsi replaced my warning with their level 2 warning. I did not understand this change, given it was a potential talk page guideline violation as refactoring other people's comments; additionally, you typically add a warning below others if a user makes a disruptive edit again. Given my history with Pepsi, I wondered if this was a deliberate bad faith edit, so I decided to seek clarification as to why they did this on their talk page. In their response to me, they admit they are stressed and angry a lot of the time. I understand, it's absolutely fine and I get people have hobbies like editing to escape these sorts of things, but it clearly is a problem when your personal feelings affect your judgement of things. Despite their message assuring they will think about their edits more carefully, soon after they leave me this message on my talk page, which absolutely baffled me (note: they added words to their main comment in subsequent edits, see this edit for the final one to that first comment). Now, I'm fine with receiving constructive criticism and I don't have a problem with him clarifying my use of tools; personally, I used the rollback feature as the edit appears to be vandalism (calling the subject a con artist) and a BLP violation due to adding defamatory content. However, the subsequent comments were, in my opinion, bad faith and a deliberate attack due to me initially leaving them a message. They once again demand an apology from me - a bit weird, but okay. Then they continue by saying that my rollback rights could be revoked and ask if I "want" that. Huh? This message seemed to have a threatening aura and definitely did not seem like it was made in good faith. I respond and explain my reasoning, and they leave me this message telling me to "stop getting more angry", despite me only trying to clarify the issue. This edit from him clarifies that he is specifically angry at me.

I truly have no clue why on Earth he has such bad faith towards me, and imo this is borderline harassment - consistently stalking my edits and leaving me such unfriendly messages. This user clearly has very poor judgement and can not be trusted with pending changes & rollback rights given how much they have elaborated on their anger issues and their judgement being clouded by these issues. There are several other examples of Pepsi misusing tools - here they admit to reverting 12 edits, simply because ONE was unsourced - then they just tell the user who added all of it to restore their edits manually because he doesn't know how to do it. It's pretty obvious to just edit the latest revision of the page and remove the unsourced edit. It's also ironic for him to leave me such a threatening message of me "abusing" my rollback status when he has gotten the same message twice for using rollback to revert good faith or non-vandalism edits. He has a history of reverting edits without carefully reading through. Thank you for your time for reading this and I hope this issue will be resolved. jolielover♥talk 12:58, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

I would like to note that PEPSI697 has added a notice of his ASD and sensitivity on 30 July 2024, perhaps we should be a bit more careful in examining his conduct and any potential remedy. I hope PEPSI697 can help us propose a solution. Kenneth Kho (talk) 14:41, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

That's why I took no action until today. I should note that I am bipolar and their harsher comments, like specifying they are angry at me, would have taken a toll on me had if I were not on medication; it costs very little to be nice and assume good faith, you truly never know what others are going through. Still, no excuse for harassment, hounding my edits, improperly reverting edits and much more. jolielover♥talk 15:42, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

I have also noticed problematic RC patrolling from PEPSI697. Their responses to complaints are especially concerning. Here, for example, they say: Ok, but I patrol recent changes and have no time to check sources since the revisions need to be reverted ASAP if it's vandalism, unsourced content or unexplained removal of content. I would not self revert until you're polite and say please. . You can see similar responses to queries if you scroll down their talk page. I honestly do not believe they have the competence required to patrol recent changes. C F A 16:09, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

If they have no time to check sources then they should not be reverting sourced changes. Source review is time consuming. It's something I do a lot - and it requires a lot of reading. I'd suggest if they both have neither the time to do the job properly nor the patience to deal with people who are frustrated over their mistakes they should probably find some other way to contribute to the project. Simonm223 (talk) 16:12, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Yes, they revert edits incredibly quickly without verifying if the edits are actually vandalism. They also leave wrong warning templates quite frequently. If you go to his contributions and ctrl + f "sorry" you'll find quite an alarming amount of apologies due to his hastiness. (1, 2, 3, 4 5, again just few examples from his 500 most recent edits). jolielover♥talk 16:24, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Seeing no time to check sources since the revisions need to be reverted ASAP if it's vandalism is not a good sign. That strikes me as assuming vandalism without evidence, which goes against AGF. Since their intention is to improve the project and the civility concerns mentioned here are not extreme, I don't think a block makes sense. Perhaps a formal warning reminding them to practice AGF and refrain from mass reversions is sufficient? ~ Pbritti (talk) 17:14, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

I think that's a good baseline. Also don't think a block is going to be an appropriate remedy here though, depending on how they respond here, there may or may not be a basis for a formal restriction on recent change patrol for a limited duration. Simonm223 (talk) 17:16, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

In response to this. I see this as very serious at this point myself (PEPSI697). I'll make a promise that today (16 January 2025) that I'll take a break from patrolling RC for the whole day and concentrate on railway station or train types article based in Australia (my country). I'll have some time to think about the actions that I caused to damage the encyclopaedia then I'll apologise and address the actions. Thanks. PEPSI697 💬 | 📝 21:32, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

About 14 hours later after my response, no one else responded. I'll be offline for 10 hours from now because it's 10:00pm in Melbourne, Australia and it's almost my bedtime, if you would like to add any other topics between 11:30 (UTC) to 21:40 (UTC), anyone is welcome to do that but I won't be able to respond until 21:40 (UTC) 7:40am Melbourne time. Today (16 January 2025), I successfully took a break from patrolling RC if you have a look at my contributions and concentrated on contributing to railway station articles in Perth, Australia. My plans for contributing to Misplaced Pages tomorrow (17 January 2025) are continuing to improve the railway station, transport infrastructure or train types based in Australia and will follow up asking a few questions at the Teahouse (maybe before 00:00 (UTC) 17 January 2025). If the questions are answered at the Teahouse before 05:00 (UTC), I might patrol recent changes briefly for about 60 minutes (06:00 (UTC) to 06:59 (UTC)) I also plan to extend my break from recent changes this weekend (18 January 2025 and 19 January 2025). I'll be back full time patrolling RC if it goes successful tomorrow on Monday (20 January), if not, I'll extend it to even longer until 24 January 2025. Thanks. PEPSI697 💬 | 📝 11:12, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Good night! When you wake up, you should proceed on the second half of this sentence you wrote: "I'll have some time to think about the actions that I caused to damage the encyclopaedia then I'll apologise and address the actions." Kenneth Kho (talk) 12:10, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

The thing is, you haven't addressed any of the issues or apologized; why should the community believe your continuation on the recent changes patrol will be constructive? Do you understand that your edits are often far too hasty and there are too many mistakes made by you on the patrol? And that your personal feelings should not cloud your judgement and lead you to make comments demanding that I "stop getting more angry"? And why exactly have you been targeting my edits to revert and revert back? I'm still baffled by this. jolielover♥talk 12:18, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Unless you seriously address the issues mentioned above, I think the next step would be a formal editing restriction on recent-changes patrolling. It's clearly disruptive and I don't see anything that leads me to believe it will stop. C F A 14:35, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

@CFA: wdym that I'm not allowed to patrol recent changes? I plan to apologise and address the actions in a few hours. You don't even know that I might stop with these incidents, we'll wait and see once I head over to the Teahouse and questions answered and I apologise and address the actions and the community accepts it.

@Jolielover: Once I apologise and address the actions and the community accepts it and the questions related to Misplaced Pages at the Teahouse is successfully answered, I will most likely stop targeting your reverts and try to do my best to revert edits that are obvious vandalism.

Don't you know that behind the keyboard that I'm actually only 16 years old and I'm not yet an adult and almost am in a couple of years? I simply sometimes don't understand what some words mean? PEPSI697 💬 | 📝 21:57, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

On the Internet, nobody knows if you're an eight-foot-tall hairless Wookie. Anyway, You don't even know that I might stop with these incidents - right, we don't know, and you "might" stop? No, you will stop, or you will be stopped by a formal editing restriction. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 23:14, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Can you please tell me whether this is an indefinite block on all of Misplaced Pages or part of Misplaced Pages or a temporary block? PEPSI697 💬 | 📝 03:37, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Not decided yet, I think it depends on your response, because so far you've said you might stop what you're doing, which is not really conclusive and doesn't send a great message forward. I do want to say that I am personally disappointed that you were intentionally targeting me, quote "I will most likely stop targeting your reverts". I'd really hope you would stop targeting me, period. jolielover♥talk 03:47, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) @PEPSI697: A lot of what's been posted above has been brought to your attention before on the user talk page here, here and here. Nobody is expecting you to be perfect, and the community understands and is OK with mistakes being made; the community, however, starts to see mistakes as a problem when they start being repeated despite previous "warnings". When you were granted the right to use these tools, the implicit agreement made on your part was that you would use them responsibly and that you understood that you would be held accountable if you didn't. Nobody really cares how old you are (though you might want to take a look at WP:YOUNG and WP:REALWORLD because it's not necessarily a good thing to reveal such information, particular for younger editors), and your age will only become an issue if you try to make it one. Your edits are going to be assessed in the same way as the edits of any other editor are going to be assessed: their value to the encyclopedic in terms of relevant policies and guidelines.FWIW, it's very easy to get frustrated when editing Misplaced Pages regardless of how old you are, and I'd imagine everyone gets frustrated at some point. Controlling one's anger, however, isn't the responsibility of others, and it's not really appropriate at all to try to "blame" others for "making" you angry. If doing certain things on Misplaced Pages increases the chances of you becoming angry, then perhaps it would be a good idea for you to avoid doing them as much. You posted on your user talk page that you get stressed or angry alot in IRL and don't think straight that's why I do it when someone warned you about editing/removing other's posts, but this is something you've been previously been warned about. Patrolling for vandalism and recent changes are things that will leads to lots of interaction with other editors, and it might be better to avoid doing such things if you're having a bad day out in the real world because the others you're interacting with might not be too interested in what type of day you're having or could just also be having a bad day themselves. Furthermore, if you sometimes don't understand what some words mean, politely ask for clarification or just let it go; responding to something without understanding what it means only increases the chances of you'll post something that makes things worse. Take a breather, try to figure out what was posted (use a dictionary or ask someone if needed), and consider whether a response is even needed or what to post if one is.Finally, if you're not sure whether an edit is vandalism or otherwise not policy/guideline compliant, then leave it as is, and find some who might be more experienced in dealing with such things to ask about it. Unless it's a really serious policy violation like a BLP or copyright matter, dealing with can probably wait a bit. Regardless of how many good edits you've made over the years, the community will step in and take some action if it starts to feel your negatives start to outweigh your positives, just like it does for any other editor. -- Marchjuly (talk) 01:41, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Update from PEPSI697: I'll apologise and address the issues at 06:00 (UTC) (5:00pm Melbourne time). Stay tuned. PEPSI697 💬 | 📝 04:03, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Can I ask something? If I do spot obvious vandalism coincidentally when I'm in an article or any Misplaced Pages project pages, how can I report them? PEPSI697 💬 | 📝 04:06, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Rollback/undo the edits (check page history for constructive edits in between), warn the user, if the user has exceeded 4 warnings or if it's a persistent vandal/vandalism only account report to WP:AIV. jolielover♥talk 04:12, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Thanks, I know that. But will I get a editing restriction for reverting vandalism? PEPSI697 💬 | 📝 04:23, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Maybe you should articulate, in your own words, what people have told you is wrong with your prior behavior. Because the answer is that you will get an editing restriction if you keep doing those things. 100.36.106.199 (talk) 11:53, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

PEPSI697's Questions about better improving experience for the future

I have a few questions I want to ask so I can better improve my experience recent changes once I return one day.

1: When patrolling recent changes if you see that someone has removed content without explanation or added unsourced content, how can I revert it if I can't use Twinkle? I see other contributors with UltraViolet revert unexplained removal and unsourced content.

2: I see that other contributors on Misplaced Pages leave talk page topics or messages by using e.g. Twinkle or UltraViolet? How can I do that and where is the customisable Twinkle settings? That's the reason I make so many mistakes by placing the wrong warning, because I'm so use to placing the uw-vandalism2 one.

3: If I can't be too hasty in reverting, how come I see other contributors revert the revision by patrolling recent changes so quickly?

Thanks. PEPSI697 💬 | 📝 06:10, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

1: Revert it manually with an edit summary. I use UltraViolet and there are edit summaries for such removals, imo a very useful tool.

2: For twinkle, just change which warning to use in the dropdown selection.

3: If it is obvious vandalism, that's probably why the revision is reverted so quickly. The issue is when it is not so obvious, and you might need to check some sources, which will take longer. jolielover♥talk 06:26, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

I might consider switching to UltraViolet to only revert unsourced or unexplained removal once I return to patrolling RC one day. Thanks for the advice. Btw, do you accept my apology? PEPSI697 💬 | 📝 06:31, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

Yes, I accept your apology. jolielover♥talk 07:17, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

Response and apology from PEPSI697

The first thing I want to do is apologise and then address the actions. It was not my intention to make anyone feel victimised or attacked. I want a good relationship with all the contributors on Misplaced Pages and to learn from them if I can. I realise that I am a little out of my depth with RC patrolling and so I'm going to take a break to better educate myself on vandalism or policy violation. I wonder if the community has any suggestions on how I can contribute in another way to Misplaced Pages that will not cause me these kinds of problems. Misplaced Pages is a big thing in my life and gives me a sense of achievement and I really want this to continue. PEPSI697 💬 | 📝 06:01, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

I realize it's been nearly a year since you've joined; my intention is certainly not to come across as condescending (I haven't gone through your contributions), but have you tried doing some more basic editing and getting familiar with the newcomer resources? Such as by reading the WP:PRIMER or looking at the task center? Both of those places have suggestions on how to contribute in a simpler, perhaps easier to grasp way that would allow you to become more familiar with the policies and violations in a relaxed fashion.

Again, I apologize if I'm offering unneeded advice to an experienced editor; this is just an idea, as someone who started editing a tad more regularly relatively recently and so is in a similar, albeit not identical, position. NewBorders (talk) 18:23, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Thanks very much for the suggestion. I had a look at task center this morning, unfortunately, I didn't have any interest in any of those topics. But I do feel like adding the template "talkheader" into as many article talk pages as I can, May I ask if this is encouraged to do so? I did it with a few railway station articles in Melbourne and Victoria in Australia. PEPSI697 💬 | 📝 03:20, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

There is guidance on how to use the {{Talk header}} found on its documentation page at Template:Talk header#Should this be added to every talk page? and also at WP:TALKLEAD. FWIW, I've seen cases where a talk header has been removed by someone, particularly with respect an empty talk page; so, simply adding one for the sake of adding one might not be the most productive way to spend your time editing since there are probably plenty of more serious issues that need addressing than an article talk page not having a "talk header" template. There's lots of things to do on Misplaced Pages as explained in WP:CONTRIBUTE and pretty much anything mentioned on that page can be done without using bots, scripts or special tools. You could also take a look at pages like WP:GUILD, WP:DEORPHAN, WP:HELPWP, WP:URA, WP:RANPP for ideas. Since you're interested in articles about railways, you could also look for things to do at WP:RAILWAY or WP:STATIONS. -- Marchjuly (talk) 04:04, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

Fair enough, I knew that adding Talkheader might of not been the most productive thing to do. How about I might try to bring some Australian railway station articles to GA status? I did do it with Bell railway station, Melbourne, but is awaiting review. I might concentrate fixing a few things at the Bell railway station Melbourne article and I also plan to get Preston railway station, Melbourne article to good article status too. I'll concentrate on that instead. PEPSI697 💬 | 📝 04:17, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

Topic ban or ban on creating articles outside the AFC process?

SOCK IT TO THEM PsychoticIncall blocked for sockpuppetry. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 21:44, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

PsychoticIncall (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has been an editor since March of last year. As can be seen on their Talk page and on the page creation log, since May 2024, they have created dozens of articles and unlikely redirects, many of which have been deleted after AfDs. Currently, from their talk page alone, I count 29 articles on non-notable poker players that ended up being deleted, and a further nine that ended up as redirects or a merge to a more appropriate article, with only six of the AfD'ed articles being kept. This is obviously a drain on the time of people who regularly participate at New Pages Patrol and/or AfD.

A request to become more familiar with WP:GNG and WP:NPEOPLE and to consider using the WP:AFC process for new articles (and to not create unlikely redirects) went unanswered. 23 articles have been deleted/redirected since then, by my count.

While notability is the main concern, sourcing, spelling and grammar on these pages are all less than ideal. An IP asked about the user's process for article creation (also unanswered), specifically asking about apparently random/non-sequitur section headings (which can be seen still in place at Anson Tsang) - similar seemingly random headings were also used on the (now-deleted) article Malo Lanois article (mentioned in the AfD.) Many of the surviving articles use essentially random terms, with poker players being described (without sources) as "semi-amateur", and "quarter-professional".

I would like to propose either a topic ban from poker and poker-related articles for PsychoticIncall; or, at minimum, a ban on creating articles outside of the WP:AFC process. Bastun 17:44, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

You stated that 23 articles have been deleted since September 2024. But are these 23 articles newly created since September 2024, or prior to that? If they have reduced their article creations over time as their articles get deleted (of which 6 survived), I don't think any ban is appropriate, and uninvolved editors should weigh in on a guidance in creating poker player articles in the future. Kenneth Kho (talk) 18:56, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

A better question to ask is "Is their ratio of good work to bad any better?" I'd say no, it's not significantly better. I'd support a topic ban or article-space ban; their attachment to the topic seems to keep them immune from listening to requests to change their behavior. - UtherSRG (talk) 22:43, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

I looked at their user creation logs, and they markedly reduced their article creations after Bastun's warning on 17:55, 2 September 2024, seeing they only created 4 articles which admittedly 3 were deleted. I think anyone creating 4 articles and having 3 articles deleted is not ground for ANI. They made a lot of redirects that were deleted though, I think a warning against careless redirect creations is appropriate, because it appears they listen to warnings. Kenneth Kho (talk) 07:21, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

A quick check of the creation logs is showing me that since 30 September, they have created 32 redirects, 5 of which remain undeleted, and 9 articles, 2 of which remain undeleted. Bastun 10:49, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Please just block them indef, they not only have massive competence issues but they are a sock of a blocked editor, . I can provide more evidence or start an SPI if necessary. Fram (talk) 09:22, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Oh, wow - good catch! Looking at User_talk:TheElvisBelievingBumbleBee, it looks indistinguishable from User talk:PsychoticIncall. Note also the use of the invented (?) term, "quarter professional", in article titles on that talk page, a term PsychoticIncall also uses. Quack. Bastun 10:56, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

I think this is a convincing case for SPI, please start it. Kenneth Kho (talk) 12:14, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

I've started it. - UtherSRG (talk) 12:20, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

However, there is a big gap in time since EBBB was blocked until now, so we may not get good CU results. But I'm going to block on behavior for now. - UtherSRG (talk) 12:22, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Suspicious activity of several accounts

OP has withdrawn complaint. They know the way to WP:SPI and have been encouraged to make use of it. Liz 22:10, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

I'm not going to take this to sockpuppet investigation because I don't have enough evidence of sockpuppetry. So I'm going to report it here just in case, someone could investigate this situation. @Kaloypangilinan: restored @CindyMalena:'s edits in these two articles.. I reverted CindyMalena's edits because they were unreferenced. Both these editors didn't add a reference to the same names they've added in the two articles and they didn't use the edit summary. These are the unreferenced edits of CindyMalena. The changes of CindyMalena/Kaloypangilinan aren't 100% identical, but they've added names that the references of the article don't mention. Kaloypangilinan has been warned 4 times (last year) in their talkpage for unreferenced content. Kaloypangilinan also don't respond to talk page messages, they've been reported here in ANI before, and still continue to make unreferenced edits. Since I became suspicious if these two editors are connected, I discovered CindyMalena created this page for "Kaloy Tingcungco", an actor in the Philippines according to Google. Then I googled "Kaloy Pangilinan" in google and pictures of the Philippine actor "Kaloy Tingcungco" came out. Whats weirder is CindyMalena edited the Wikipage of this blocked account User:Fakolyabouz. I don't know how can a newly created account edit a Wikipage of a blocked editor, if they aren't connected. Hotwiki (talk) 18:52, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

You really should take this to WP:SPI. For one thing, if you're right, it's the appropriate venue. For another, if you're wrong but have put together a case with behavioural evidence such as the editing of a blocked editor's user boxes you're less likely to get accused of casting aspersions. My sincere recommendation is to withdraw this incident report and then create a SPI case. Simonm223 (talk) 18:55, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Per @Simonm223:'s suggestion, I'm going to withdraw this incident report. As for a SPI case, both CindyMalena and Kaloypangilinan have less than 200 edits and I simply don't have enough amount of evidence to report them in Spi. Hotwiki (talk) 19:08, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Hotwiki, why do you think the editors have to have made 200 edits before they can be reported? Some editors who have been blocked as sockpuppets have made 0 edits. Liz 19:57, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

The last editor, I've reported relating to sockpuppetry before this was User:Arborgenus had 71 edits. Looking at the contributions page of Kaloypangilinan and CindyMalena, I don't have much evidence aside from what I already posted here. I did notice the similar behavior of no communication in their respective talkpage and not using the edit summary. Like I said, I don't know how can a new account can locate this page User:Fakolyabuoz/Bryce_Eusebio, since the user page of Fakolyabuoz is empty and their talkpage don't have any posts that would direct new users to User:Fakolyabuoz/Bryce_Eusebio. I would need more evidence if I ever report something to SPI. I've only submitted reports in SPI, twice if I'm remembering correctly. Hotwiki (talk) 20:16, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Hotwiki, if you have enough evidence then you should report suspected sockpuppetry at WP:SPI. If you don't have enough evidence then you shouldn't report it anywhere. Phil Bridger (talk) 20:33, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

I did make a mistake coming here about this issue, thats why I already withdrew this report. Also, I've only made two sockpuppet reports (if I remember correctly) which both were stressful for me. With Kaloypangilinan/CindyMalena, I just didn't want to go through the same process with fewer evidences, which is why I came here to ANI. Hotwiki (talk) 20:42, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

It sounds like @Hotwiki is just looking for assurance that it's OK to take this to SPI with this evidence?

Hotwiki, I'm not an admin or a checkuser, nor an expert on SPI, but you can always try submitting a report. It's easier if you use Twinkle. There isn't any rush to submit a report, you can take your time. Knitsey (talk) 20:52, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Thank you @Knitsey:. For now, I don't feel confident filing a SPI report against CindyMalena/Kaloy Pangilinan. The last SPI case I made was stressful because the sockpuppeteer had several accounts. I ended up doing 2 reports which were both confirmed right. Last month, I reported a sockpuppeteer in ANI because they admitted it through their talkpage and it was connected to those two times I made a report in Spi. But this is a different case with Kaloypangilinan/CindyMalena. If I get more evidences in the future, I would go back to it and send it to SPI. Thank you for the suggestions and I'm sorry if I brought up my sockpuppet suspicious here, since this isn't the right place for that. Hotwiki (talk) 21:04, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

• Just a note that an SPI case was filed and both editors were found to be sockpuppets of User:Fakolyabuoz. Liz 17:11, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

User Douglas1998A creating incorrect categories.

The pblock will continue until communication improves. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 23:19, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Two weeks ago I opened this discussion on Douglas1998A creating and adding incorrect categories to pages, most notably on Now Generation and América (Brazilian TV series). In November 2024, they created Category:Portuguese-language American telenovelas and added it to Now Generation and América (Brazilian TV series), even though they are not American telenovelas. The category was deleted but in December 2024, they created Category:Brazilian-American telenovelas and added the previously mentioned pages to this new category when they are only Brazilian telenovelas and not American ones. . The category was deleted and the user created it once more today and added it to Now Generation and América (Brazilian TV series) again.

The first time this issue was brought up to the noticeboard it was never resolved as the user failed to discuss the issue after being notified of the discussion, and they have never bothered to reply back to messages on their talk page. How can this be resolved if the user continuously fails to engage in consensus building?Telenovelafan215 (talk) 19:07, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

@Sammi Brie: Your take? Mvcg66b3r (talk) 19:34, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Pretty obviously a communication is required problem and also wrong. The telenovelas don't have any American production outside of one being dubbed into Spanish by a U.S. broadcaster, which does not count. Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 19:40, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Has Douglas1998A done any positive work in Category space? Because if it's just warring over these two categories, they could be partially blocked from Categories unless their other work creating categories is fine. Liz 20:00, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

Per Douglas1998A's talk page, two other categories created by them were nominated and deleted. These were: Category:Artists who acted in films and television shows and Category:Artists who acted in films and television shows. So I believe there it's more than just the Brazilian/Portuguese categories.

I have also mentioned to Douglas1998A that pages should be placed in the most specific categories to which they belong. For example on La gran sorpresa they persistently added Category:Spanish-language television programming in the United States, when the page is already in the subcategory Category:Univision original programming.

Douglas1998A's lack of communication and reverting edits show they are unwilling to discuss and resolve the issues with their edits. Telenovelafan215 (talk) 21:03, 15 January 2025 (UTC)

A day has passed since the user was notified of this discussion. They have continued editing and have not bothered to reply. The user is ignoring the issue and it will once again be unresolved. Telenovelafan215 (talk) 18:42, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

 User blocked from article space per WP:COMMUNICATE. Once the user begins commmunicating and adequately addresses these concerns, any admin is free to lift the block. Jauerback/_dude. 20:09, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Al-Naghawi page

Not an ANI issue. (non-admin closure) Heart 03:02, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

• Al-Naghawi (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

currently there is an edit issue going on with the Al-Naghawi page as information is being changed back and forth alongside the page's title name so I wish for admin intervention to resolve issues as sources are not being checked which are cited as they are irrelevant to the page. 82.14.223.77 (talk) 08:01, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

WP:ANEW is thataway. → - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 08:09, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Magian Priest's Descendant - egregious personal attacks

Escalated to indeffed. Nothing further. (non-admin closure) Heart 03:10, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Magian Priest's Descendant (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I'm sorry, but ask someone that's more intelligent. A European, perhaps.

SHUT THE FUCK UP!... IMPBRAIN!

Other than the fact that HistoryofIran is a retarded parsi...

Also violated WP:3RR at Vologases V , refusing to use the talk page (whose comments shows that they either have WP:CIR issues or are trolling). --HistoryofIran (talk) 10:37, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

While not strictly a 3RR violation (note the last diff is a different edit) but absolutely edit-warring, and when combined with the personal attacks in the edit-summaries, have blocked them for 24 hours. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 10:54, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Thanks The Bushranger! HistoryofIran (talk) 11:01, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Non-neutral paid editor

@EMsmile is heavily editing Solar_radiation_modification in favour of her declared client, www.earthsystemgovernance.org. This has included placing undue weight material in the body and lead, and attacking rival organisations (ie the DEGREES initiative). Despite multiple appeals on the article talk page / her personal talk page, she's still at it - wasting everyone's time with long discussion posts arguing in favour of biasing the page. She just needs to be locked out of this article and related articles, and - if that's not possible - given a temporary or permanent ban. Andrewjlockley (talk) 12:45, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

That's not the only page where I'm seeing some questionable edits:

• Softening language surrounding the impact of COVID on sustainable development goals.
• Cutting information concerning the impact of climate change on water scarcity.
• - here it's more the slash-and-burn approach to the reliable sources that were deleted.
• Refers to an economics journal as poor sourcing for a statement about the economics of sustainable financing.

An openly paid editor making promotional and other questionable edits is probably WP:NOTHERE. But I would caution you that you do need to inform EMsmile on their user talk page that this thread has been created - pinging them is not sufficient. Simonm223 (talk) 13:08, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

done Andrewjlockley (talk) 13:54, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

@Simonm223: I looked at all four edits you listed, and I think there are perfectly WP:GF reasons for them.

1. By "softening language", do you refer to the removal of phrases such as "has had a profound impact on the mental and physical wellbeing of communities around the world" and "The pandemic slowed progress towards achieving the SDGs. It has "exacerbated existing fault lines of inequality" + "The brunt of the impacts of the COVID-19 pandemic were felt by poorer segments of the population"? Let's be frank: do you imagine a paper encyclopedia retaining these phrases? Do you think they would have made it through a FAN or even a GAN? The edit already keeps the phrase "It was "the worst human and economic crisis in a lifetime." and I would argue that it already implies what the cut phrases said. An abundance of emotive language risks that some users tune out. You may disagree with this perspective, but it is a defensible one. Likewise, the paragraph she cut about "An independent group of scientists..." - do you still imagine this statement to be relevant in say 3-5 years' time? If not, it would likely violate WP:NOTNEWS and so should not belong there. Lastly she cut the claim that three of the SDGs "ignore the planetary limits and encourage consumption" - a very strong statement cited to...an obscure book, seemingly not even peer-reviewed.
2. Misplaced Pages should not use language such as "recent report", and COP29 is already over. There is literally WP:RECENT, and cutting that paragraph seems justifiable under that metric. If that reference has some hard numbers on water scarcity that are not present elsewhere in the article, then it should be used to provide them. However, that paragraph was not it.
3. Do you really think phrases like "China's dedication to sustainable finance is extending to multiple fronts, demonstrating a holistic approach to green development. The ambitious Belt and Road Initiative (BRI), a flagship project spanning numerous countries, is increasingly embracing green finance principles, prioritizing eco-friendly investments across its vast infrastructure and development endeavors. This shift aligns the BRI with sustainability goals, emphasizing clean energy, climate resilience, and biodiversity protection in partner nations....Notably, China's 14th Five-Year Plan introduces a comprehensive sustainability approach that permeates various sectors, encompassing agriculture, mining, transportation, and more. China's active engagement in international collaborations is poised to influence global green finance standards, driving increased transparency and accountability in sustainable investments." are consistent with WP:NPOV? Really? Maybe cutting all of it went too far, but it certainly didn't belong in an article looking like that.
4. That citation was linked as a mere PDF, with almost no work done to make it a properly formatted citation. When I did look up the title, I found that said "economics journal"...was apparently an internal publication of the Central Bank of Hungary. It's unclear if it had been peer-reviewed, and I strongly doubt it counts as a good source for any matters not specific to Hungary.

In all, using these edits and an accusation of COI (by an OP who appears to have his own COI in this subject matter) to argue that a user with extensive topic experience "is probably WP:NOTHERE" seems downright Kafkaesque. InformationToKnowledge (talk) 17:53, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Are you accusing Simonm223, who raised the points you're responding to, of having a COI as well? Are you also accusing Thisredrock, who raised the concerns here? It is obvious looking over these in context that EMsmile has been editing in both a WP:TENDENTIOUS and WP:PROMOTIONAL manner with regards to their employer, in precisely the manner that WP:PAID is supposed to prevent. --Aquillion (talk) 20:11, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

If I have, I would have written exactly that. My response is only there to question how closely Simon looked at the edits brought to the discussion, and their relevance to the matter at hand. The idea that removing a paragraph cited to a single economist at a Hungarian Central Bank from a global-level article is somehow a ploy to indirectly promote an NGO employing her seems like an Olympic-level stretch to me, and the other claims are hardly more plausible. If you look at the edit history of something like Climate change, you'll see that editors often end up adding sentences or paragraphs backed up by sources that aren't bad by Misplaced Pages's general standards - but simply not good enough or relevant enough for a specific high-level article like that, so the veteran editors end up removing these contributions soon afterwards.

Given this context, I don't see a major issue with any of those edits (other than that I personally would have attempted to rescue at least one of those references by citing it in a different manner - but lots and lots of editors do the same approach of cutting everything they consider irrelevant outright, and are not obligated to do it differently). If you or Simonm223 still think there's an issue which makes them relevant to this discussion, you would have to make a stronger case for it to convince me. InformationToKnowledge (talk) 21:03, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

I have been an interlocutor, perhaps the leading one, during @EMsmile's paid time heavily editing this page. As background, this is a very contentious topic. Her client is not precisely the one that @Andrewjlockley provided, but is this campaign to restrict this area of scientific research. https://www.solargeoeng.org/

My experience with her is that she has, in each individual interaction, been collegial and reasonable. However, her work on a whole (more than 180 edits over the last few months) has significantly shifted the article's point of view, consistently in the direction of her client's perspective. I can provide specifics, if helpful. TERSEYES (talk) 14:24, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Adding: Another editor compiled some examples of her edits https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Solar_radiation_modification#c-Thisredrock-20250116135800-Andrewjlockley-20250115180000 TERSEYES (talk) 14:43, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

• An editor with a declared COI should never be making non-trivial article-space edits to article covered by the area of the COI; the strongly discouraged wording has always been interpreted as allowing only trivial edits that exhibit no hint of bias - the reason why it's strongly discouraged is because the moment they're editing with a clear bias towards their employer's perspective they're supposed to be gone. If they've continued to make such edits after being informed of this, they should be blocked. I'd also strongly suggest going over their edits and undoing them - it's important to deny any benefit from this sort of behavior. --Aquillion (talk) 14:53, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

  Aquillion So...how should we then interpret the fact that the OP's username, "Andrewjlockley", appears to match this (Redacted)?

  Now, I'll admit that he doesn't appear to have ever attempted to cite his own work in this or other articles on the subject (which, as far as my understanding of the rules go, would have been grounds for an instant topic ban.) Yet, it's fairly clear his incentives align with this article being positive towards geoengineering, and with editors who take the opposing position being marginalized. I would like to note that if Earth System Governance is EMsmile's primary employer, then opposition to geoengineering is not even seen anywhere on their front page - nor on any of their most visible pages, such as Research Framework. The contrast between this and that Google Scholar profile being primarily dedicated to geoengineering research is significant. InformationToKnowledge (talk) 17:10, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Now, I'll admit that he doesn't appear to have ever attempted to cite his own work in this or other articles on the subject (which, as far as my understanding of the rules go, would have been grounds for an instant topic ban) - that would be wrong. See WP:SELFCITE; citing yourself is permissible within limits, provided you're doing so in appropriate contexts and not just spamming your work everywhere. This makes sense when you stop and think about it - people whose work on a subject is significant enough to be cited are the very people we want editing articles. But beyond that your accusation is off-base. Read WP:COI, and especially WP:COINOTBIAS Having a perspective on a topic is not bias, and even a bias is not a COI, which is much more narrowly-defined. Academics who have written about a topic and who study it are obviously not just allowed but actually encouraged to edit in that topic area - it wouldn't make any sense to bar experts for being experts; and obviously an expert on a controversial subject is going to have a perspective. WP:PAID editing, on the other hand, is much more unambiguous; editors who are paid to edit Misplaced Pages are supposed to work through edit requests, because they don't just have a bias but an overwhelming financial imperative that pushes them to edit tendentiously. --Aquillion (talk) 19:58, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Aquillion, if I recall correctly, the community explicitly rejected a prohibition - hence why the wording settled on “strongly discouraged”. If I’m wrong on this, please advise me, because I come across mentees in the mentorship program that have COI and if there is a consensus that paid/COI non-trivial edits are explicitly prohibited, then WP:COI needs updated as well as how we explain to new editors.

It’s not fair to someone to say “we strongly discourage this” and then go tell them “what we meant by that was you aren’t allowed to do it at all”. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 21:11, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

If you read the discussion, the reason for the current wording was concerns like "what if someone just fixes a spelling error or an obvious glaring problem, they shouldn't get in trouble for that." It certainly wasn't "yeah WP:PAID editors should be able to just ignore this entirely whenever they feel like it." When someone takes an action that policy strongly discourages, the logical conclusion is that they're putting their ass on the line in terms of being absolutely correct in every other way (and should think long and hard that every edit they make that goes against that strong discouragement.) If they're not putting that thought in, or if they slip up and make a non-neutral edit? They need to stop, and if they refuse they need to be ejected from the topic area entirely. "Strongly discouraged", to me, is the strongest possible prohibition we can place on something without making it strictly barred - it is an absolutely huge deal. EMsmile's behavior shows absolutely no awareness of or respect for this - they've been constantly, and aggressively, behaving in ways that policy strongly discourages. Someone who does that is obviously going to end up blocked. --Aquillion (talk) 06:13, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

I'm happy to admit that I can read the discussion in that way too, and I agree that "strongly discouraged" is the closest to "prohibited" without being prohibited. That being said, we both agree that it's not the same as prohibited. But in that case, it takes basically no time to update the way it's advertised to people - change strongly discouraged to prohibited, except for obvious, minor changes that no reasonable editor would object to (such as fixing an obvious typo, or reverting vandalism). I stand by my comment that, as it stands, editors should not be punished for not knowing that "strongly discouraged" really means "virtually entirely prohibited". That's a discussion for another forum, though.

Note I'm not commenting on this user or the situation at all - but as I've had a couple mentors (through that mentor program/app/widget/whatever it is) recently who I've had to ask about COI/PAID, I want to make sure that, if I need to be manually saying it's virtually always prohibited to edit an article directly when I post templates/COI-welcome/etc, I want to ensure I'm doing that. Because I find it unfair if I (or anyone) only posts something saying "strongly discouraged" when in reality they should be told "unless it's an obvious typo or whatever, it's prohibited". What slightly concerned me/piqued my interest was your statement that editors who are paid to edit Misplaced Pages are supposed to work through edit requests - but I realize that was an oversimplification based on the facts of this case. To be clear, I don't think I need to be doing anything super special/additional - your reply has assuaged my concerns that the wording there was just applying the guideline to this case, rather than a general statement.

Thanks for the reply. -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | me | talk to me! 21:05, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

• So...how should we then interpret the fact that the OP's username...appears to match this Uh, guys? Does WP:OUTING mean nothing to you? - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 21:43, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

  @The Bushranger - I think that sanction should be swiftly applied. This is not something we take lightly. Even if they are one-in-the-same, this is still not one of the permitted exceptions to the policy for DOXING. Furthermore, this wouldn't be the first time when someone has presented themselves as an SME (by inference of their username) but is really impersonating that person either for nefarious or even just fame/fandom purposes, which might result in wholly inappropriate correspondence to the innocent real person. TiggerJay (talk) 01:38, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

  I've redacted the name and link and revdel'd the diffs between when it was posted and now. I'll leave it up to over admins if Oversight is necessary or if further sanctions are needed, but for now: @InformationToKnowledge:, do not attempt to link a Misplaced Pages user with anyone's real identity, no matter how obvious it might seem, if they have not done so themselves. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 01:49, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

  I've posted a rather harrowing warning on their user talk page. I never had cause to use that template before. Liz 03:56, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

  As a mere administrator, I am unable to see whatever sort of extremely dangerous content was redacted by Oversight here, but was the thing posted here the very obvious thing that any eight-year-old could have figured out how to do within ten seconds? jp×g🗯️ 04:35, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

  I would suggest that there are some policies which we must maintain an above-average level of diligence in, especially those which can have real life, in person consequences. And over the years the principles of privacy still remain one of those absolute things that have brought down trusted veteran administrators in a single violation. The policies and the very narrow exceptions are very clear, and this is one area where you most certainly want to error on the side of caution, even if it might otherwise seem obvious right now. Tomorrow they could change those things which you believe make the correlation "obvious", to make it far less so, but that DOXING would make it a forever permanent association unless revdel is performed. TiggerJay (talk) 04:57, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

  Could we get an edit to WP:OUTTING for this specific scenario? Did not know and would not have engaged with the info provided had I known. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 05:31, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

WP:BOOMERANG back to Andrewjlockley

I would be one of the first to admit that EMsmile has not been a perfect editor; i.e. frequently exhibiting (in my mind) undue focus on rewriting article leads to hit algorithmic benchmarks such as readability over updating article content. However, that does not change the fact she has been one of a literal handful of editors to have stayed consistently engaged in WikiProject: Climate change over the past few years. This is a topic which seems to wear out editors very quickly, as I can attest from my own experience. I would therefore strongly urge caution and ensure we avoid further editor attrition that did not need to happen.

With that in mind, I would like to say I have great difficulty assuming WP:GF here - not when the OP editor (Redacted), which all appear to take a pro-solar geoengineering perspective and when said editor neglected to disclose this clearly highly relevant fact on his own in the process of making this report.

I am not aware of the specifics of EMsmile's paid editing, but to my knowledge, opposition to solar geoengineering is at most just one of the many positions her employer had taken - and not a particularly controversial position, since there is currently no affirmative consensus in favour of this intervention. (i.e. the IPCC Sixth Assessment Report, the gold standard in climate science, is at best non-committal: see Cross-Working Group Box SRM: Solar Radiation Modification on page 2473 of Chapter 16 of the 2nd installment of that report.) In my view, the OP has a much more direct conflict of interest with this topic than EMsmile does.

P.S. This is really not how imagined exiting a 6-month hiatus. InformationToKnowledge (talk) 16:55, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

With the greatest of respect @InformationToKnowledge, your posts here are a distraction. This discussion is not about @Andrewjlockley, or his views, or his work outside of Misplaced Pages. It is about whether EMsmile had a conflict of interest when they edited solar radiation modification, which is a very controversial topic. Given that EMSmile repeatedly boosted the "Non-Use Agreement" campaign, giving it much more coverage and visibility than other initiatives mentioned on the page, and they boosted the founder of the campaign, and the campaign and the founder both come from the organisation that pays EMSmile to edit wikipedia, there are important questions that are not answered by budget whataboutery. Thisredrock (talk) 18:39, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

See WP:BOOMERANG... if you bring it up, you are open to questioning yourself.

All of this is pertinent. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 19:39, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

I think what we have here is a situation where there may, in fact, be two editors with a COI. We know, for a fact, that EMSmile has been paid to edit and did so non-neutrally. That is a contravention of WP policy. We have an allegation that Andrewjlockley is a researcher who has based much of his career on writing on the topic. WP:OUTING concerns aside this could, if AJL is getting paid for their work or if they are making edits that bring attention to their work, represent a COI too.

The question of whether either editor has a conflict of interest is not affected by whether the other editor also has a conflict of interest. As such we should probably treat these separately. If InformationToKnowledge is entirely correct then this still isn't a matter of EMS is green and AJL should be sanctioned - it might be they both should be though.

Basically the EMS question is easy: they were paid to edit and did so non-neutrally. If AJL is also disruptive or has a COI we can deal with that separately. Simonm223 (talk) 19:49, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Thisredrock: there is no problem bringing up boomerang here, as it might be relevant. It doesn't need to take away from the discussion, and editors who bring things to ANI absolutely need to realize that the expose themselves also to the same or more scrutiny for their on-wiki activity. Of course those also calling for a boomerang are also opening up their edit histories as well. That being said, I would support that idea that we should not simply pivot the discussion to AJL and forget about EMS. Rather, there are two discussions about unpermissable COI editing behaviors and they both need to be followed through on. TiggerJay (talk) 20:27, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Please reread WP:COI, and especially WP:COINOTBIAS. The suggestion that being a published academic on a subject constitutes a COI for the entire subject is nonsensical; and the suggestion that it could be in any way comparable to straightforward paid editing is absurd. This is not a complex point of policy - even a heartbeat's thought ought to make it obvious that we do not bar academics from editing Misplaced Pages in their area of expertise. See the final paragraph of WP:EXTERNALREL, which specifically encourages subject-matter experts to edit their area of expertise .--Aquillion (talk) 19:58, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

as per (Redacted) is an independent researcher who left UCL and is working with European Astrotech.

Don't think its a COI, but every participant in this thread seems worth double checking to see what is happening. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 20:36, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Yeah, based on Bluethricecreamman and Aquillion's comments and evidence I'd say it does look like there is not a COI for AJL. Of especial relevance is Aquillion's reference above to WP:SELFCITE. Simonm223 (talk) 20:39, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

FWIW, earthsystemsgovernance appears to be a research group/advocacy group that does fellowships too, and not a company perse.

If there is a COI for either EMS or AJL, its subtle enough it requires some more investigation.... What is the funding situation for European Astrotech/earthsystemsgovernance? Are there corporate interests behind any of this? Bluethricecreamman (talk) 20:39, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

The issue with EMS is that they are, by their own account, a freelancer who was hired to help earthsystemsgovernance with their online profile including Misplaced Pages. EMS is, according to themself, not a researcher or anything else of the sort. Simonm223 (talk) 20:45, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

yeah, that def sounds like COI... I've heard of Misplaced Pages:Wikipedia_Fellows before, but they are negotiated with WMF ahead of time, right? Bluethricecreamman (talk) 20:54, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

• Hello! I don't know if it is better that I stay out of this discussion and let it play out or that I explain my position? OK, let me try to explain my position: I have been editing Misplaced Pages for a long time on all sorts of topics; since several years mainly on climate change topics. I fully believe in the vision of Misplaced Pages and I believe that I have followed all the rules, even those around paid editing (I actually think more people should edit Misplaced Pages as part of their day jobs, not just as a hobby after hours...). I have disclosed that I am a paid editor for some of my editing (I also edit a lot in a volunteer capacity). I believe that I have explained on my profile page exactly how I manage any potential for WP:COI that arises as a result.
• With regards to SRM has anyone taken a look at how the article looked a year ago? It was a mess (see here the version of 15 May 2024). Has anyone looked at the discussions we've had on the talk page regarding WP:NPOV over the months? This is a controversial topic, and this controversy ought to be reflected in the article (which wasn't done well before, when it was rather one-sided). I believe my edits have in fact made the SRM article better overall, better structured, more clearly showing the pros and cons. We are not meant to take sides but to simply explain what is going on, who is discussing what. I think the discussions on the talk page went quite fine, very friendly and supportive, until all of a sudden just a few days ago when AJL appeared on the scene. All of a sudden he and a few other people popped up (who have not edited much on Misplaced Pages before and not on a range of topics either) and straight away I get attacked very aggressively on my talk page by AJL (with the threat of "If you continue to distort Misplaced Pages in this way, I'll seek to get your profile shut down."). Why? Can we not discuss this in a calm and civil manner?
• AJL and at least two of the other people who very recently showed up on the SRM page have a history of pushing for more SRM research in their day job (Redacted). Also, User:Thisredrock explains on their user profile that they are into SRM research. AJL then attacked me for having included a section on a non-use agreement (abbreviated as NUA on the talk page of SRM). This non-use agreement is about stopping all SRM research work altogether (although User:Thisredrock said "I don't think that there is any disagreement that the NUA campaign should be covered on this page). Understandably, these academics might object to the mention of such a non-use agreement in this Misplaced Pages article (given that it would be against doing any SRM research), right? It's easy to attack me now because of the paid editing aspect but shouldn't they disclose their professional stance (and potential COI or bias) as well?
• I have been editing Misplaced Pages for 10 years with over 50,000 thousand edits, quite peacefully. In my opinion, we could have had a calm, civil discussion on the talk page of the SRM article to see which sentences on the non-use agreement of SRM are justified and which are not, how criticism of Position A or Position B could be worded, rather than heading straight to the admin noticeboard, without even trying to reach a consensus in good faith. That's sad. (to clarify: I felt that the comments by User:Thisredrock on the talk page and in the edit summaries were not aggressive and we could have collaborated quite well on this even if we have different viewpoints. Consensus could have been reached by assuming good faith on both sides).
• Finally, as to the examples that User:Simonm22 of my editing in January 2025 in their post above, I don't see what these examples are trying to prove. If you disagree with any of those edits, why not bring it up on the talk pages of those articles? Those edits have nothing to do with SRM. I edit on a big range of topics, not just SRM. I've explained in my edit summaries why I made those particular edits, and I stand by them (thanks for User:InformationToKnowledge for taking the time to review those edits in their post above). EMsmile (talk) 21:36, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

This is an absolutely Shameless example of whataboutery orDARVO, but I'll respond anyway.

I haven't been involved with UCL or with European Astro tech for years . I've never been paid for researching srm.

Research is not advocacy . I don't run any advocacy service within srm . I run a neutral information service which promotes all sides of the Debate equally, and which I pay for out my own pocket . I don't care if people are editing for cash but I do care if they're doing it badly and in a biased way Andrewjlockley (talk) 22:37, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

I wish to clarify the relationship between the Earth System Governance project (ESG, and EMsmiles's client) and the the campaign for a 'Non-use Agreement' (NUA) on solar radiation modification (SRM). ESG is an academic network that host conferences, publishes a journal, has working groups -- all the usual stuff. The NUA is a political campaign that, despite its name, seeks to restrict SRM research. There is great overlap between the two endeavours, to the point that the NUA is de facto a project of ESG.

Of the NUA's three leads, one (Biermann) was the founder of ESG and its first chair, for ten years, and is the editor in chief of its journall. ESG is administratively housed in his academic department. Another NUA lead (Gupta) is a member of ESG's 11-member leadership board , one of five authors of its current implementation plan , and -- for what it is worth -- married to Biermann. The two of them are among the three editors of ESG's series of short books. By quick count, of the other 14 authors on the NUA's founding paper, one other is on the governing board, at least eight are lead faculty, at least two are senior research fellows, and one is among the journal's six editors.

In the other direction, of ESG's 11-member governing board, eight have signed the NUA sign-on statement.

The only engagement with the issue of SRM by ESG's governing board, lead faculty, senior research fellows, and members of its journal's editorial board has been the NUA and its predecessor critical articles. TERSEYES (talk) 08:29, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

@TERSEYES, would you mind helping explain how you have, what appears to be firsthand knowledge of the "relationship" between ESG and another user on here? TiggerJay (talk) 14:30, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

The NUA coordination group, seems to be entirely headed up by academics too. Again, bias isn't always COI. If a PhD also volunteers for a nuclear non-proliferation club, and also decides to edit wikipedia, as long as they aren't tendetious, its probably fine.

For NUA/ESG, i think editors (myself included) are looking for evidence the groups aren't aligned with wikipedia. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 16:17, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

• Did we seriously get a redaction, and not just a revdel, but an oversight on like a hundred revisions of ANI for someone... as far as I can tell, mentioning the on-wiki username of the guy who opened the thread? Is it possible to get any clarity on this? jp×g🗯️ 04:32, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

  This isn't the first time, and sadly will not be the last time there is a large revdel, there was one that spanned over 16 hours worth within the last month. TiggerJay (talk) 04:46, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

  They didn't just mention the "on-wiki username", they mentioned the person's (claimed to be) actual legal name, with links to articles about said person, when (as far as I can tell) aside from the username they had not connected themselves to the person off-wiki. Also it was called to my attention that EMsmile (talk · contribs) has also encouraged people to search certain user's names to connect them to off-wiki activities, which is also not on. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 05:44, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

  ... gonna ask in talk page of WP:OUTTING if we can have a list of these edge cases at this point Bluethricecreamman (talk) 05:53, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

  The Bushranger, I'd like to see a diff for that claim about EMsmile encouraging people to investigate other editors. That's a serious charge. Liz 07:30, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

  @Liz: the diff of them placing it is in the oversighted area, but the diff of my removing it is here - I didn't revdel it because it didn't name any names that weren't the user's username, but it was definitely a "look up this person". - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 07:33, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

  I don't know if I am understanding this correctly -- is the idea here that if some editor on here is named User:Johnjacobjingleheimer, then it constitutes WP:OUTING (e.g. so egregious that it must not only be removed from the page, and also removed from the revision history, but also made invisible even to the few hundred administrators) if somebody refers to him as "John Jacob Jingleheimer"? Or merely if someone says "I googled John Jacob Jingleheimer and the top result is his personal website saying he's the CEO of Globodyne"? Both of these seem like the kind of thing that The Onion would make up in a joke about Misplaced Pages being a silly bureaucracy, rather than an actual thing. jp×g🗯️ 03:09, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

  For example, my real name is pretty easy to find if you put even minimal effort into it, and I have a LinkedIn account that shows up pretty prominently if you search my name. What do the functionaries want people to do if they notice that I am aggressively defending some company and then it turns out I work for it? Like, is the official recommendation that someone makes a Wikipediocracy/Sucks thread? jp×g🗯️ 03:17, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

  if there was a list of examples with this specific scenario at WP:OUTTING think it would be easier to avoid.

  opened a discussion on the talk page to discuss adding these edge cases.

  alternatively, maybe we need a new essay to point to? Bluethricecreamman (talk) 03:29, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

• I have indeffed Andrewjlockley based on their admission of sending a letter to another user's employer, which is blatant WP:HARASSMENT and is absolutely unacceptable, and for their generally aggressive behavior here. We have ways to deal with COI reports, such as the COI VRT queue, that exist exactly so we aren't WP:OUTING people or contacting their employers. CaptainEek ⚓ 21:05, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

  @CaptainEek I respectfully question this block. When Misplaced Pages is being spammed by an organization, I believe it's OK for volunteers to contact the organization and ask them to stop spamming us, right? This is totally different from emailing the employer of a volunteer editor for purposes of harassment. Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 01:17, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

  This seems like a more nuanced situation than outright spam. EMS is an experienced contributor who seems to work with this client as more than just casual employment. This felt much more like Andrew attempting to circumvent a process he didn't like, and I think his statement evidenced his disdain. EMS believed she was acting in good faith. She may still get sanctioned here, but that's no excuse to just be emailing the clients of paid editors. Maybe I'm wrong, and the community is fine with random editors emailing article subjects to get them to fire their experienced paid editors. But I think that sets a dangerous precedent. I'm not opposed to an unblock should Andrew show understanding, but I sure wouldn't mind seeing the email in question first. CaptainEek ⚓ 02:10, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

  I agree this is a nuanced situation and for clarity I brought up spamming as a hypothetical - I'm not saying ESG is a spammer. ESG is, however, an organization that has chosen to fund a Misplaced Pages editing project. When an organization makes this choice, I think our community regards the organization as being in some way accountable for what they are funding.

  Since you haven't seen the email in question, I assume you felt that sending an email was in and of itself a blockable offense. If that's the case, then we have a culture in which when there's a dispute over a funded project, we do not try to resolve it privately with the funder as would happen in a normal relationship between organizations. Instead, the dispute is supposed to take place on a public and permanently-archived page, and we are all forbidden from informing the funder that it is even happening. Is this what you want Andrew to say he understands before you'll unblock him? To be frank, this is the kind of convention that makes newcomers and outsiders think we are nuts.

  BTW do you think there any way to get the entire EMSmile COI question referred to AE instead of ANI (climate change is a CTOP)? The former has less of a tendency to turn into an indecisive sprawl. Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 03:53, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

  i was mildly curious when i saw this ani thread mentioned at FTN. at this point,

  the amount of energy and time its taken from community seems ridiculous.

  AE may better handle it and the nuance and figure out what should be done. if so, hope an admin closes soon. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 06:21, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

Does Wikimedian in Residence apply?

EMS's situation being paid by a research org, (and ajl's claimed situation to run a research information service), to edit wikipedia seems analagous to | wikimedian in residence. See also WP:WIRCOI. In general, all editors are biased, but that's ok as long as there's no WP:TEND. In general, seems COI mostly is about bias towards the company or org you work for, or for a direct product your employer makes. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 05:50, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

what is the process of being a wikimedian in residence? if there is no process, is EMS technically a wikimedian in residence by default? Bluethricecreamman (talk) 06:18, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

I think the way I work is quite similar to Wikimedians in Residence, so I would be happy to be characterised as such. EMsmile (talk) 11:00, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

My situation is totally different to @EMsmile. I just run a twitter and a substack etc. There's no overarching brand or organisation, and certainly not one I'm promoting here. I'm not even mentioned in the Misplaced Pages page on the subject AFAIK, nor are any services I run. Let's focus on what this is about. It's about @EMsmile adjusting the page to favour her client (if she was neutral it wouldn't matter). That's not the same as "this person may have some other involvement in the field", which would mean every doctor can't edit WP as they get paid for medicine. Also FWIW I'm pretty open about my ID and unless people are specifically compromising my personal security or encouraging troll swarms etc then I don't think there should be sanctions. Andrewjlockley (talk) 08:12, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

What I wanted to point out earlier is that if I am accused of being biased (or that I am editing in a biased and non-professional way), then it's also possible that the person who makes that claim is biased as well. SRM is a controversial topic, there is no doubt around it. Millions of research money is being poured into it, from all sorts of sources (currently a lot from US tech milliardares). This is explained well in the SRM article here. I had in the past added more information on funding to that section. Then there are some groups (CSOs and NGOs but also academics) who have expressed concern about SRM. Some have even called for stopping all research. This kind of concern should be included in the SRM article. That's all. I am not saying it's right or wrong but it deserves to be mentioned as per WP:DUE.

Would it be helpful, and allowed according to WP procedures, if I added a link to an article from 2023 which explain some activities on SRM outdoor experiments in the UK where AJL's name is mentioned (I don't want to make a mistake, or further mistakes, regarding WP:OUTTING- sorry if I got that wrong in the first place)? I don't really want to discuss AJL's work on SRM in depth. But it might shed line on the background to all this.

Personally, I think this all should have stayed on the talk page of the SRM article and good compromises could have been found. I believe I have worked well on the talk page of the SRM article with other Misplaced Pages editors in the last six months; generally reaching consensus on the most suitable wording in a good faith manner. There really is no need to attack each other. EMsmile (talk) 11:19, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Note also that AJL wrote on my talk page "I've already publicly raised this in an open letter to your apparent client" on 15 January. EMsmile (talk) 11:22, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Proposal: Indefinite block for EMsmile

Let's cut to the chase before more oversighting is required here. EMsmile is a paid editor who violated WP:OUTING - encouraging other editors to look up off-wiki information on the person who raised concerns about their non-neutral paid editing. This has been disruptive - frankly edits that lead to mass requirements of oversight are highly disruptive - and that's notwithstanding the paid editing. Let's not bother beating around the bush anymore. EMsmile's contributions to the project are disruptive and should be curtailed. As they seem to think they did nothing wrong it will be up to Misplaced Pages to do the curtailing. Simonm223 (talk) 13:07, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Oppose block, support WP:TROUTing EMS for almost WP:OUTTING, WP:TROUTing AJL for aggressive interactions, warning ITK for WP:OUTTING.- informationToKnowledge did the problematic edits, not EMS. EMS encouraged looking up a username but apparently that wasnt revdeled, just editted out by an admin.also this whole thing has been edge case after edge case,to the point where even admins are learning more about the outtingbpolicy.

the wikimedian in residence description and more specifically WP:WIRCOI suggests that groups aligned to wikipedias vision of open knowledge (universities, research groups, museums) can be allowed to edit even when paid explicitly to edit wikipedia.would like more info about EMS employer or if they did anything else like add links from their employer’s research specifically or edit their employers article . their employer so far just seems like a research group Bluethricecreamman (talk) 13:30, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

From WP:WIRCOI WiRs must not engage in public relations or marketing for their organization in Misplaced Pages - this seems not to be the case here. Simonm223 (talk) 14:32, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

like aquillion says, bias isnt coi and coi isnt bias.

want to see diffs where emsmile is citing their own research, editting their orgs article, or evidence their org is actually a front group or something else that isnt aligned with wikipedias values before im certain wp:coi appliesBluethricecreamman (talk) 15:24, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

I don't know the rules on punishing alleged transgressions on wikipedia, but personally I would want a lot more information - along the lines suggested by Bluethricecreamman - before anyone made a blocking decision that would affect someone's livelihood. Thisredrock (talk) 14:39, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Part of the thing is that Misplaced Pages is not supposed to be someone's livelihood. Bluethricecreamman has raised an exception allowed for employees of institutions like museums and libraries for edits that are aligned with both institutional and wp project goals but that exception explicitly disallows public relations activities. That forms something of the core to the main dispute - whether EMsmile was aligned with wp project goals or whether they were engaging in public relations for the org that employs them. I assert the latter while Bluethricecreamman asserts the former. Reasonable minds can disagree so additional editor feedback on that locus of dispute would be a good thing. But that doesn't change that people aren't generally supposed to be editing Misplaced Pages for pay. Simonm223 (talk) 15:14, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Trout at this point. EMS accidentally almost outted someone, ITK did out someone by some edge case, AJL is excessively aggressive for a few edits and should be warned, not sure where COI is anymore and without some silverbullet evidence or argument, think we just move on and let the content dispute happen on talk page. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 16:22, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

• Oppose this seems a bit excessive. I would, however, like to see User:EMsmile apologize for the WP:OUTING that occurred. Allan Nonymous (talk) 15:06, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

  I've already apologised on my talk page earlier today. I would be happy to write a more detailed apology: just tell me where to best put it? NB that I have never violated OUTING before so I am normally well aware of this and very careful. EMsmile (talk) 15:41, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

• Strong oppose (uninvolved) there were actually two people who performed different outings that were redacted, both EMS and ITK. While I think both might have been done in simple ignorance (because who hasn't googled to check for bias before), it is entirely different to do it publically and publish said information. The sanctions for such are quite clear, so I think they should be performed, but only for long enough to satisfy the penalty for such actions (eg not WP:PUNISH).

That being said, looking at EMS specifically, there is a lot to wade through that an uninvolved, unbiased SME would really aid this review. This is especially true because from a few hours of reviewing things, it fails a DUCK test, and looks more like what we would hope from a PAID editor. What I see is a properly disclosed WP:PAID editor, 99% live edits, 97% created pages still alive, steady-long-term edit history, 85%+ edit summaries in recent months, 20% of main space edits have been to the talk pages, their own talk page discussion remain civil (even when receiving borderline uncivil comments), regular use of PGs seemingly in appropriate (eg not wikilawyering) ways. These are all the opposite of what we see from typical COI/POVPUSH/PAID editors. Therefore, it does require a more nuanced look into their edits to ensure there isn't WP:CPUSH going on. This is going to require a lot more time to carefully go through their talk page discussions in full context, understanding the subject enough to weigh the merrits of their actual edits. But after an hour or two, I think there has been some cherry-picking of evidence. In think short of a thorough investigation, taking hours of an editors time, I think it will be quite difficult to call this actual disruption or rather it is more an edit war between involved editors. While this has been a very disruptive ANI, I'm not convinced its fault of the accused but perhaps still the accuser stirring the pot. :TiggerJay (talk) 15:22, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

FWIW, just to compare, AJL on the same metrics: ((I didn't even look at these until after the EMS post above) 93% live edits, 95% created pages still alive, otherwise dormant account becoming very active this month, 100% edit summaries recently, 44% of main space edits to talk page, no recent talk page interaction their talk page... So far nothing really wrong. However, then you discover that AJL account has made ONLY 16 edits in recent history before raising this ANI. They have been uncivil on EMS's talk page including very questionable off-wiki behavior, and never actually citing policy except once where WP:PAID was completely misrepresented. But as you look further in to the rather SHORT recent contribution history of this editor, it is ASTONISHING that their interaction on talk page with EMS was a grand total of 5 interactions before raising this at ANI (3 on article talk, and 2 on EMS talk). And in those talk messages it went from 0 to 100 between two posts. Again for someone who came out of seemingly nowhere (no more than a dozen edits in any given month for over 11 years)... And this ANI was raised after a total of 16 edits in a 24-hour period. This is quacking like a either WP:OWN or WP:SOCK. TiggerJay (talk) 15:47, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Maybe everyone gets WP:TROUTs at this point and we move on? Bluethricecreamman (talk) 16:13, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Oh I do think we're beyond that for several reasons, as I've maintained outting is not something we should ever take lightly nor ever simply give it a pass. Beyond that AJL escalated this astonishingly fast (I would suggest in bad faith), from a (pharaphrased) "why did you do that" to "I'm reporting you to ANI and writing a letter to your employer" in the very next talk page edit, which is not only uncivil, but borderline NPA and off-wiki threats.

However, to be abundantly clear I don't think EMS is in the clear either, there is a need for a closer evaluation of the edits for 'potential civil-POV which is also prohibited, but I just do not see the bright line, typical POVPUSH/COI edit behavior which is typical of such paid editors. I can understand how it might come off in a quick evaluation of blanking a section like this might come off is overly whitewashing, but China's dedication to sustainable finance is extending to multiple fronts, demonstrating a holistic approach to green development. The ambitious Belt and Road Initiative (BRI), a flagship project spanning numerous countries, is increasingly embracing green finance principles, prioritizing eco-friendly investments across its vast infrastructure and development endeavors. This shift aligns the BRI with sustainability goals, emphasizing clean energy, climate resilience, and biodiversity protection in partner nations. but I think if you were being honest, that sounds wildly promotional to me and doesn't belong here. Can you even stuff more peacock terms in there?! Now a more appropriate thing would have been to edit it or tag it, but the removal wasn't the best choice available there. However, I would proffer that if any one of the experienced editors here removed that paragraph, nobody would bat an eye. But I think it does call into need for a closer look, instead of just a hasty "I didn't like they removed a paragraph" from an article they might have a COI with and thus indef! That is irresponsible. TiggerJay (talk) 17:38, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

in hindsight might be open to restrictions on geoengineering and other related topics if ems is part of a pure advocacy group

mostly a la liz aka only edit requests and talk page discuss for geoengineering. Bluethricecreamman (talk) 03:19, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

• Strong support. They've consistently edited mainspace to push things in a direction clearly influenced by their employer. An editor whose entire post history consists of stuff strongly discouraged by policy should not continue to edit; the OUTing is just the cherry on top of unacceptable behavior. I'm also unimpressed by the way that both this editor and those defending them have constantly tried to sling aspersions at other people in order to defend them - even if true, WP:NOTTHEM applies; it does not excuse EMsmile's own behavior. The interpretation, above, that the fact that WP:PAID only strongly discourages paid editors from making mainspace edits does not allow editors to blithely ignore the entire thing without even the slightest token lip-service; the discretion it grants is for occasional limited uncontroversial edits, not for editors to take that one line to mean that the whole policy has no applicability to them at all. I'm baffled that this is even in question - EMsmile's editing is wildly beyond the line for what could ever be acceptable from a paid editor. --Aquillion (talk) 16:20, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

• Oppose and IMO unthinkable They disclosed that they have a small consultancy project from Earth Systems Governance Foundation and made 65 edits on the article in question some which may have gone into the gray area where they maybe should have done a requested edit. From a glance at their user page it looks like their PE contributions are a tiny fraction of their >60k edits in wide-ranging areas. And IMO the reporter has been pretty nasty at best on this. I've done work with PE's before and would be happy to hang out at the subject article for a few months if pinged. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 19:18, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

  made 65 edits on the article in question some which may have gone into the gray area where they maybe should have done a requested edit: shouldn't every edit they make to this article go through an edit request? It isn't just if the edit is obviously controversial, any edit to that article (or related ones) is at the very least in the "gray area" as you call it. Yes, they have behaved better than most paid editors by at least being transparent about their COI, but it doesn't give them a free pass to make 65 edits that should have gone through edit requests.
  I'm not sold on an indefinite block right now, given their useful contributions beyond the topic, but I would support an "edit requests only" restriction on the topic of geoengineering broadly construed. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 20:44, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

  Personally, I am much more concerned about undeclared paid editing (which I feel is very prevalent and too prevalent) and feel that how rough we are on declared PE (doubly so for the approach by the op of this overall thread) to be a bad thing and a disincentive to declare. But if pinged and folks want, as I said before, I'd be willing to hang out at the article for a few months. And (even without any requirement for such from here) I'd strongly suggest that anything but gnome edits be submitted for someone else to put in. North8000 (talk) 00:50, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

• I'd want to see a lot more evidences/diffs to support this proposal before supporting it. There might be evidence somewhere in this long, long discussion but it should have been presented again when this proposal was set forth, especially the evidence on any attempt at "outing". Along with copyright violations, that's one of the most damning accusations that can be made about an editor and yet, I haven't seen anything to support it. If it's part of an edit that has been revision deleted or oversighted, it should still be identified so those of us with the ability to examine it can verify it. Alluding to misconduct without supporting evidence is just casting aspersions. I'm not saying that everything here is proper (hence why I haven't supported or opposed this block) but you can't make charges without providing evidence to back them up and if it is buried somewhere else in this complaint, you have to add it to this proposal. But I think given the length of time this editor has contributed to the project and the fact that they have identified themselves as an editor who is getting compensated for their work (that is, following policy guidelines, so far), there should be due process before laying down the harshest sanction that we have. Liz 22:18, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

  Once again, I don't care about being outed because I'm using my own name. What I care about is the integrity of Misplaced Pages. I reported this behaviour on the talk page of both the article and the user and got nowhere - so I escalated it, as is the proper process. It doesn't require a long history of misconduct to justify this - because editing to promote your fee-paying client is egregious behavior, which is completely antithetical to the Spirit of Misplaced Pages. If someone doesn't stop after one warning and expresses absolutely no contrition, then escalation is the right thing to do. I was to-the-point but not personally abusive while doing so. I'm not obliged to soothe the tender feelings of those who are undermining the very essence of Misplaced Pages . I don't claim any ownership of the articles that I've created / worked on but I do care about the integrity of information on the subject - and when people are paid to bias Misplaced Pages they are acting as a sock puppet WP:SOCK . I called this out by means of letter to the employer - not because I wanted to get EMS into trouble with the employer, but because I wanted to get the employer to stop doing what they were paying EMS to do on their behalf . Let's stop getting bogged down in bureaucratic process and concentrate on the key point, which is whether we want Misplaced Pages to be edited by people who are trying to promote their employer's organization or point of view. All this talk of outing and "be kind" sea lion behaviour is a total distraction. Andrewjlockley (talk) 20:09, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

  I meant meat puppet. Andrewjlockley (talk) 20:11, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

• Tentative oppose - Hard to evaluate the OUTING claim given what's been redacted, so it's up to oversighters to decide if it was bad enough for a block. Not enough evidence has been presented that we need to block for COI/PAID activities yet, though. — Rhododendrites \\ 21:41, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

• Striking not because I'm convinced an indef is merited, but because the context relies on far more jargon and understanding of the subject than I have the capacity to dive into at the moment. — Rhododendrites \\ 01:51, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

• Support a topic ban from ESG and its affiliates with no opinion on indef block at this time.

From what I can see, Earth System Governance looks like a mission-aligned organization that could support a fruitful, policy-compliant Wikipedian in Residence position (FWIW I sometimes do paid projects as a WiR). There are a few potential hazards with any WiR role, however. One hazard is identified by the COI guideline: "WiRs must not engage in public relations or marketing for their organization in Misplaced Pages". More broadly, we have a movement-wide custom that Wikimedians in Residence do not edit about their institution" (emphasis in the original). Multiple editors have complained about EMsmile's edits that are in some way connected to her client. These edits merit examination:

• August 12 2024: EMsmile added a section on the NUA, which as TERSEYES points out above is closely connected to her client. All citations in the section were to primary sources affiliated with the NUA.
• Nov 18, 2024: EMsmile added the name of Frank Biermann, her client's founder, to the SRM article.. When you have a COI, this kind of edit is PR/marketing. Her edit summary was ""copy edits, added wikilink", i.e. there was no indication of substantial or COI editing in her edit summary.
• Jan 15 2024: When challenged about the NUA-related content, EMsmile responded with a ~600 word wall of text, followed by a ~400 word wall of text, followed by several shorter comments, all about advocating for more NUA content than other editors wanted. Tne persistence and sheer amount of text are not in line with WP:PAYTALK , which says that COI editors must be concise and mindful of not wasting volunteer editors' time. Several of her comments also cut up another editor's comment, in violation of WP:TPO.

When others complained about her edits and her COI, EMsmile accused them of making personal attacks." I did not see any personal attacks in the discussion to that point. The criticism had been very civil IMO. Making unfounded accusations of personal attacks turns up the heat and is uncivil.

EMsmile, I am concerned about the justifications you provide for editing about your client: "And regarding my situation as a paid editor in this case: I fully understand that this could raise red flags for folks. However, I've been editing Misplaced Pages now for over a decade; most of my 50,000 or so edits in a volunteer capacity and many in a paid capacity (for various clients). I have no intention to throw overboard my professional judgement for a short term consultancy and to start neglecting Misplaced Pages editing policies.." There is no execmption in the COI guideline for experienced editors. All parts of the COI guideline apply to everyone, including you. Trying to be unbiased does not make you unbiased when you have a COI. You also justify your advocacy by pointing to your transparency. E.g. when called out on adding the founder's name to the SRM article, you wrote, "That is correct, and I've stated this very clearly and transparently on my user profile page." Transparency is good but it's only one part of the COI guideline. Transparency does not make it OK to use Misplaced Pages to advocate for your client.

It is obvious to me that EMsmile should immediately stop all forms of editing about her client and its founder. Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 01:09, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

I looked at Earth System Governance Project last night just to better understand the organization. It came across to me as promotional. I looked at the history and my heart sank. EMsmile has made 113 edits to the page, all within her time of being paid by ESG. She has according to the authorship statistics written 73% of the article, in violation of the COI guideline. This is absolutely not what Wikipedians in Residence are supposed to be doing. Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 16:56, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

User:CoastRedwood - Harassment

Blocked for a week and warned not to do this. Good grief. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 21:39, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

• CoastRedwood (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Repeated personal attacks, harassment and not following behavior policies by CoastRedwood. Despite multiple warnings from multiple editors to address the behavior, CoastRedwood has edited other users' pages, engaged in personal attacks, made uncivil comments and is not willing to heed constructive feedback. Personal attacks/harassment - , , and editing others' userpages' , , , , , . Jeraxmoira🐉 (talk) 13:24, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Yeah, that's not great. A weird WP:RGW mentality toward... emojis? Mentions of anthromorphic foxes? And, frankly, the specific personal attack of degenerate used in that specific context is... it suggests a disruptive editing mindset. I don't know. Maybe their non-disruptive work on animal species has enough value that we don't go directly to a WP:NOTHERE block (though I am on the fence about that) but, at the very least, they need a topic ban from editing other editors user pages. Simonm223 (talk) 13:36, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

This is being dealt with on CoastRedwood's talk page by sysops, and escalating it to AN/I is premature.—S Marshall T/C 13:43, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Please see the timeline of the edits made. CoastRedwood is still approaching both the editors after two admins have already tried explaining it to him. This was made recently after multiple warnings. Jeraxmoira🐉 (talk) 14:21, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing out that diff. I didn't see it. That was after my formal warning, so I went ahead and blocked them for a week just now. –Novem Linguae (talk) 14:28, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Thanks everyone! I'm not sure what caused this user to make such remarks against ArkHyena and I; also thankful for the quick actions taken while I was a bit busy. Some of the content they removed from my userpage was only intended to promote humor and just for a little fun, and their rationales for it sound questionable, at the least. ~ Tails Wx 14:56, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Ah, but that was your first mistake. You see, fun is not allowed on here :P

NewBorders (talk) 17:31, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Earl Andrew

Heat exceeding light. Legend of 14 is advised that ANI is the last resort for dispute resolution, not the first, and in the future should exhaust other options before coming here. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 23:10, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

• Earl Andrew (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Earl Andrew is using personal attacks against me for leaving notices on WP:BLPN. It is interfering in those discussions.

Diffs:

• https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard&diff=prev&oldid=1269826037
• https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard&diff=prev&oldid=1269826716

Legend of 14 (talk) 16:26, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Did you try discussing with Earl Andrew about supposed personal attacks before coming here? Tarlby 16:36, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

No I did not. How does one respond directly to disrespectful comments and accusations of bad faith, followed by a suggestion that you should do their job under WP:BURDEN on wikipedia, because I have no idea what to say to them. I wouldn't normally resort to ANI over these comments, but in my opinion these comments are inferring in discussions on WP:BLPN. Legend of 14 (talk) 16:52, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

I would ask for an apology directly if I was getting personally attacked. Tarlby 16:54, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

I felt like asking for an apology in this case would likely escalate the disputes in question, and could be seen as provocative in this case. Legend of 14 (talk) 17:09, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Does opening an ANI thread for urgent incidents or chronic, intractable behavioral problems not escalate the disputes in question? Tarlby 17:11, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

I don't think anything I've done in this thread could be seen as taunting or baiting. I think a reply like "Please apologize for your personal attack" would be seen as taunting. ANI escalates the dispute, but in a way that did not unreasonably increase the chance of incivility. Legend of 14 (talk) 17:16, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Neither of those is a personal attack. The second is more critical of you than the first, but still a long ways from an attack.--Bbb23 (talk) 16:37, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Accusing me of making bad faith edits, without offering any evidence to support bad intentions is a personal attack. The first diff is more of a disrespectful comment than a personal attack, I could've been more clear. Both comments are bad for the discussion. Legend of 14 (talk) 16:42, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

You are removing non contentious information from a lot of articles, and claiming they are contentious. That to me feels like bad faith editing. Up for interpretation for sure, but in no way did I mean it as a personal attack. -- Earl Andrew - talk 17:13, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Provide diffs. I can't respond to unsubstantiated claims. Legend of 14 (talk) 17:17, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Why were you deleting Allan Higdon's birthplace? GoodDay (talk) 16:58, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Can you please explain how this question relates to the topic of Earl Andrew's comments? If understand why you're asking the question I'll be able to give a better answer. Legend of 14 (talk) 17:11, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

I see no personal attacks in the diffs you provided. I would say that Earl calling you a destructive force wasn't very WP:CIVIL, but WP:WIAPA tells me that those comments weren't "personal" attacks. The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1 17:31, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

"These examples are not exhaustive. Insulting or disparaging an editor is a personal attack regardless of the manner in which it is done."

-WP:WIAPA

I never called him a "destructive force". Legend of 14 (talk) 17:34, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Sorry, I misread your comment. The quote from WIAPA still stands. Legend of 14 (talk) 17:37, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

I agree, that might have been a personal attack, but also please read WP:PA#First offenses and isolated incidents. ANI should have been the last resort for you. The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1 17:48, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

See above comments for why I did not think I had other options. Also, see how even after being aware that I found the comments insulting/disparaging, the user continued to make them without substantiation https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#c-Earl_Andrew-20250116171300-Legend_of_14-20250116164200. Legend of 14 (talk) 17:54, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Insulting or disparaging is very different than having a disagreement. While WIAPA is not exhaustive, neither of those diffs area anywhere in the same ballpark as the other examples -- this is a million miles away from Abusive, defamatory, or derogatory phrases based (common discrimination classes), Comparing editors to Nazis, terrorists, dictators, or other infamous people or threats. There is no incivility in asking "how is something contention", even if it is prefixed with "how on earth"... If you feel insulted or disparaged because someone questioned the validity of your contributions, you need to grow a thicker skin. Also did you even read the section on top about Before posting? Which of those have you actually attempted before coming here? Also as someone else has mentioned you should be cautioned about boomerang, meaning that your own actions also have a spotlight on them and you have volunteered put your own edits and conduct up for scrutiny. TiggerJay (talk) 18:06, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

No one has linked to any of my edits here. There's a difference between some criticizing an identified edit and making disparaging remarks about unidentified edits by a named editor. I can't defend the edits that the user has a problem with because they have not been clearly identified with me. When an edit I made that was identified was brought up here, I did my best to answer the questions.

I did not raise every issue here on the users talk page. When I tried to raise issues on the editor's talk page see User talk:Earl Andrew#January 2025, I got called unconstructive. When I went to the forum WP:BLPN, the editor escalated by disparaging me as editing in bad faith. I had reason to believe that further discussion on the talk page would go nowhere, so I posted here under WP:Ignore All Rules, instead of making what I felt would almost certainly be another unproductive talk page discussion. Given that since making this notice, the user has continued to make unsubstantiated claims about my character, I think I had the correct judgement. Legend of 14 (talk) 18:28, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

You have not addressed the question how the diffs you provided of EA's behavior is anywhere in the ballpark of the criteria of WIAPA. You were the one who claimed as such, so the onus is on you to substantiate in what way where their comments violating the policy on personal attacks. I would even have a hard time considering them uncivil, but even if they were, uncivility is quite a different matter than a personal attack. So which aspects of WP:WIAPA do you feel EA's comments closely resemble? TiggerJay (talk) 19:18, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

I believe the comments about me acting in bad faith are disparaging remarks about me and therefore qualify as personal attacks. Legend of 14 (talk) 19:24, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

I also think the comment about "How in the world" is an insult against me given the context is, it was promptly followed by another comment by the same user accusing me of bad faith. I hope this explanation is satisfactory. Legend of 14 (talk) 19:39, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Suggesting my statements are a "personal attack" on you carries about the same weight as me suggesting this whole discussion is a personal attack against me. You are grasping at straws. If you're going to pick fights with everyone who dares cross your path (I see you've bombarded User:Adam Bishop's talk page now), you may find yourself blocked. And no, that's not a threat, I am not going to block you, as that would be a conflict of interest.-- Earl Andrew - talk 21:37, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

The only possibilities here are "extremely stupid" or "troll". Either way it's a clear case of disruptive editing. I suppose I can't do the banning myself either, now. Oh well. Adam Bishop (talk) 21:45, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

I finding Dispute resolution confusing. This convo should be closed because I didn't try to resolve all my disputes with you first, https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#c-The_Bushranger-20250116213500-Legend_of_14-20250116190800. But, also now that I'm trying to resolve concerns as I become aware of them with another user outside of ANI, I should also be blocked for that. Don't use ANI, use the talk page for all issues first, but also don't keep posting on the talk page. Can you please clearly state the process I should go through to resolve disputes? Legend of 14 (talk) 21:48, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

I'm not suggesting you should be blocked, I'm saying that if you continue with this petty behaviour, someone will inevitably block you. Learn from this experience and stop trying to pick fights with people.-- Earl Andrew - talk 21:54, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

I'm not trying to start fights with others though. I've never directly commented on another's character. I've tried to focus on the content of the articles or discussion pages comments, not why such actions were done or the character of the person doing them, and on the relevant policies. What are you saying I should do differently? Legend of 14 (talk) 22:04, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

You do realize you were the one who instigated this ANI case, correct? You're actually lodging a formal complaint about a different editors behavior. It's a little late to suggest you're simply an innocent bystander. TiggerJay (talk) 22:42, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

I'm not saying I'm a bystander. I'm not the one who made uncivil comments on WP:BLPN, which is what started this "fight". Legend of 14 (talk) 22:46, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

I have no opinion on this dispute, but just in case you're unaware, the behavior of anyone participating in these threads, whether as someone who's reporting, being reported, or even just commenting, may be scrutinized for wrongdoing. See WP:BOOMERANG. NewBorders (talk) 17:40, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

I'll give the answer here I gave on WP:BLPN, I removed uncited claims about immigration status. To add additional information beyond what I said there, Canada's immigration system has somewhat recent come under fire for being used to suppress wage growth https://www.newcanadianmedia.ca/temporary-immigration-programs-are-pushing-down-wage-growth-in-canada-economists-say/, so I removed the uncited content because for that reason it could be considered contentious. Legend of 14 (talk) 17:49, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

I think it is relevant to include an instance on User talk:Earl Andrew where the user says they're "suspicious of this user's true intentions", without linking to any edits. https://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Earl_Andrew#c-Earl_Andrew-20250116180500-Tarlby-20250116174800 This happened after I initiated the ANI. Legend of 14 (talk) 18:12, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Legend of 14, what sort of resolution are you seeking here? Because so far, while some editors acknowledge that Earl Andrew could have been more civil, no one has agreed with you that these are personal attacks. Are you looking for validation, an apology, a chance to vent, or some kind of sanction because the latter won't be happening based on the response here. Liz 18:54, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

Another user has agreed that these could be personal attacks https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#c-The_Corvette_ZR1-20250116174800-Legend_of_14-20250116173700. I was hoping for a retraction of all the unsubstantiated claims about me acting in bad faith and comments that the user is suspicious of my intentions and an interaction ban with me, and a restriction against making comments about my character anywhere on Misplaced Pages. Legend of 14 (talk) 19:08, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

That is not going to happen. is not remotely a personal attack. could be more WP:CIVIL but is also not a personal attack. And again, you must attempt to resolve issues before coming to ANI, which you by your own admission chose not to do. Strongly suggest this be closed as there is nothing to do here. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 21:35, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Chronic refusal to comply re edit summaries/copious, tendentious editing

Blocked for a week. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 17:49, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Despite years of requests by numerous editors to leave edit summaries, User: K1ngstowngalway1 makes another apology, another promise, leaves cursory remarks for a minority of their edits for a short while, then back to highly prolific editing with no explanations. (Raised repeatedly in their current talk page (most recently here), this previous talk page version (blanked, apparently in a botched archiving attempt) and at the talk page of a previous user name.)

This would be problematic if the edits were not contentious but a high proportion are. Currently they are causing concern at Jacobitism articles. (See again the iterations of their talk pages referred to above, this discussion and this one, re OR, inaccurate citation, excessively lengthy quotes, overwhelming articles with peripheral or off-topic material, neutrality concerns, primary and self-published sources, ENGVAR, MOS, slow warring, blanking of maintenance tags, editorialising, anachronism.)

A previous incident on this issue was lodged here but closed down after this exchange, later referred to again when there was no compliance.

The abundance and extent of edits and the almost total omission of explanation makes it impossible to assess the editor's copious work. If the much-repeated excuse of absent-mindedness is to be taken seriously, it indicates instead a significant and chronic competence issue. They either have no ability or no intention to engage meaningfully to explain their editing. Mutt Lunker (talk) 22:28, 16 January 2025 (UTC)

I haven't looked into this in detail but I warned K1ngstowngalway1 about edit summaries on 25 November 2024, got a promise to improve, and note that they are still only using edit summaries occasionally and omitting them for substantial edits, eg ,,, to pick just three recent ones. Espresso Addict (talk) 11:28, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

For more regarding problematic editing at Jacobitism, see this talk page discussion. Mutt Lunker (talk) 20:58, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Yes, recently come across this editor at Jacobitism, which prompted me to look at their other edits. I would say that lack of edit summaries is the least of the issues (albeit it does seem to be some sort of passive-aggressive deliberate stance - I don't buy that they consistently 'forget' to do it.) Their editing pattern appears to be to introduce tendentious POV edits based on WP:OR and WP:SYNTH with frequent misuse of WP:PRIMARY sources. They WP:OVERLINK, often to concepts which are anachronistic or make a POV connection. They've been trying to make these sorts of changes to Jacobitism since last July and won't engage on the talk page. Their last revert had the edit summary Undid revision, as certain editors seem to have an emotional attachment to Whig history and to be unwilling to tolerate the use of more recent historical scholarship that places the conflicts of the era in a different light and shows that today's Britain represents a compromise between Whig and Jacobite ideology.. The misuse of sources and the links in the edits they want to restore in that revert seem typical of their editing approach having looked at what they have been doing elsewhere. DeCausa (talk) 16:07, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

I agree entirely, including that the lack of edit summaries is but one of very many problems in their editing, having routinely encountered all the others you note. My reason for highlighting edit summaries is that it is the most abundantly demonstrable indication of the chronically tendentious nature of their editing, upon which we can agree to act. (FWIW, I did raise the broader issues at the NPOV board and also here last August but these discussions did not result in sanction.)

The following are all talk page discussions where the leaving of edit summaries has been requested, or their omission noted, many featuring repeated reminders. They start in 2006 in their User:Kingstowngalway incarnation, 1, 2, 3, 4, then in the current id of User:K1ngstowngalway1, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15 (trawled from the edit history) and 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21 from the current talk page. More than enough in itself to impose a block. Mutt Lunker (talk) 17:27, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

• Comment: I see they have never been blocked. I'd suggest a short block - a week? - for disruptive editing. Anyone disagree? Deb (talk) 16:16, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

  I agree. DeCausa (talk) 16:37, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

  Certainly. Mutt Lunker (talk) 17:14, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

• User: K1ngstowngalway1 is blocked for one week. Deb (talk) 17:22, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Block request: IP user edit-warring and not discussing edits.

IP warned against edit warring. voorts (talk/contributions) 02:48, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

IP user 98.97.15.82 is engaging in edit-warring on New Glenn regarding the vehicle being either "operational" or "under-development." Another user started a discussion on the talk page and I participated in it and referenced the discussion when reverting the IP user's edit. The IP user has since reverted the edit again and not participated in the discussion. I can't contact this user further as they are not on an account and do not want to continue an edit-war. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alpacaaviator (talk • contribs) 02:32, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:PopPunkFanBoi69 is being highly disruptive (battleground, attacks, edit war)

Blocked. SPI still open. voorts (talk/contributions) 02:55, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

To noone's surprise, PopPunkFanBoi69 was indeed a sock. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 03:35, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

PopPunkFanBoi69 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I'm not sure that User:PopPunkFanBoi69 is here to build an encyclopaedia. Their edit history consists of a lot of unsourced content additions/changes, such as diff 1, diff 2. They have made talk page posts that are personal attacks or WP:BATTLEGROUND style, such as diff 1 (battleground), diff 2 (attack).

Despite being warned by User:Binksternet (diff) for edit warring on 'List of rock genres', they continue to restore their edits without consensus (diff).

One final thing that made me proceed to making this AN/I report: check out this reply on User:PopPunkFanBoi69's talk page, here's a quote from that: This is why I fucking hate editing Misplaced Pages because multiple accounts that have been blocked & having to create a new account! This suggests to me that this is a sockpuppet account, although I don't know about this user and their previous accounts.

Either way, I see numerous policy violations here, such as civility, edit warring and potential violation of the multiple accounts policy. — AP 499D25 (talk) 02:34, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

You haven’t looked at the Misplaced Pages articles Alternative pop & Alternative R&B for sources! So you don’t see the sources then stay quiet! Look at the Alternative rock article also for sources! PopPunkFanBoi69 (talk) 02:39, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

You may not know me but come to my talk page if you wanna know about me & my previous accounts like I understand you’re concerned for me & I’m inviting you to my talk page so you can get the full story! PopPunkFanBoi69 (talk) 02:42, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

I would have reported the problem here, but I got the sense I had seen this behavior before. After confirming my suspicion, I started a casepage at Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/RockMusic69. What with socking, a personal attack, and a 3RR violation, this person is not likely to retain their editing ability. Binksternet (talk) 02:43, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

I’m not a sockpuppet I’m just a very smart guy who knows a lot about music & Rock genres! Please by all means call me nasty names but I reported you! PopPunkFanBoi69 (talk) 02:49, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

EdsonCordeirodeSouza - Disruptive editing and edit warring

Blocked for 31 hours for edit warring. voorts (talk/contributions) 03:06, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

• EdsonCordeirodeSouza (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

The user in question has been persistently disruptive editing and edit warring, currently primarily on The Masked Singer (American TV series) season 10. As it's been excluded for however long, the contestant/mask/celebrity they continue adding to the table was not a competing contestant and was only in the season as a special guest, as already mentioned in prose text with the table. Also in their preferred version that they keep edit warring back to, they continue messing up one of the sources URLs, changing it from https://web.archive.org/web/20230925131501/https://variety.com/2023/tv/news/the-masked-singer-season-10-premiere-recap-demi-lovato-anonymouse-1235719311/ to https://web.archive.org/web/20230925131501/https://variety.com/2023/tv/news/the-masked-singer-season-10-premiere-recap-demi-lovato-anony mouse-1235719311/, which in turn, continues to create a reference error.

As seen on their talk page, this also does not appear to be their first time disruptively editing and edit warring. Despite their warnings less than a month ago and their recent warnings I've added to their talk page, they continue doing the same exact thing and there is no communication from them whatsoever. I had originally reported this at AIV, but as it was not specifically 'vandalism', I was advised to come here. Hoping this can be resolved, thank you. Magitroopa (talk) 02:53, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Janessian is very clearly not here to build an encyclopedia

Editor Janessian has been indefinitely blocked for a whole laundry list of reasons so I'm closing this complaint. Liz 17:36, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

And talk page access revoked. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 03:19, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

• Janessian (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Janessian seems to be not here to build an encyclopedia, but rather to harass editors over a pair of images they don't like in the article Killing of Wong Chik Yeok. They have already been sanctioned twice for edit warring on the article, but this latest comment between myself, JBW, NelsonLee20042020, and Skywatcher68, they posted this lovely little gem on JBW's talk page. Nelson has just informed me that Janessian has made a rather unpleasant comment on phil knights talk page as well .Insanityclown1 (talk) 04:56, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Insanityclown1, do you have more diffs that show a pattern of behavior? I think there has alreay been a report about them at ANI and a link to that discussion would help the case you are making. Liz 06:26, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

It looks like they were called both to ANI and ANEW. Links to prevous discussions help put a complaint in context. Liz 06:29, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Link to my complaint to ANEW: , . JBW handled the first block. Insanityclown1 (talk) 06:35, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Yes, I was mistaken about a prior visit to ANI. I thought Isabelle blocked them. Liz 06:39, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

At this point my main concern is protecting fellow editors. Janessian's conduct has caused @NelsonLee20042020 what seems to be a fair amount of distress. Insanityclown1 (talk) 06:42, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Isabelle blocked Janessian from editing the article. but some degree of talk page harassment has continued. Insanityclown1 (talk) 06:45, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

• Janessian's editing is unacceptable in several ways, including edit-warring, legal threats, and personal attacks. I gave a short block, and when the unacceptable editing resumed Isabelle Belato gave an indef partial block from the article in question. For both blocks edit-warring was given as the reason, but it is perfectly clear that the problems go beyond that. The block from the article has been followed by unacceptable user talk page editing. I shall convert the block to a total one, apart from Janessian's own talk page, and post a message to that page in which I shall try to make it clearer what the problems are, and what can be done about them. Unfortunately it will take me a little while to get time to do that, but I hope minutes rather than hours. JBW (talk) 10:53, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

• Well, in the 42 minutes between my posting the message above and my getting time to come back and follow it up, Janessian posted a couple of messages on the talk page of the article, which were much more like attempts to start a civil discussion. I shall therefore hold fire on the block, and post a message to their talk page about the way forward. JBW (talk) 11:44, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

  @Insanityclown1, @JBW, @Liz, Well...I seen the message too. I had read through, but I had a bad feeling about this. Plus, all crime wiki articles often use news reports apart from court sources or books to support the information published on the article. I find that he did not comprehend or understand that part, and some of his parts about working with the police to write crime on wikipedia is a bit hard considering that we are not working in that field. He also said he will refer to crime report in this case NelsonLee20042020 (talk) 12:00, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

  @Insanityclown1, @JBW, @Liz, how will we respond to his messages? , , , , NelsonLee20042020 (talk) 12:13, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

  @Insanityclown1, @JBW, @Liz, in the unpleasant message in @PhilKnight's talkpage, it seems that he knew some hints of where I am and what I am doing. I felt uneasy about how he replied in the talk page and his most recent messages. NelsonLee20042020 (talk) 12:07, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

  NelsonLee20042020, I haven't looked into any other aspects of this, but Janessian does not seem to have posted anything in that message that you have not disclosed on your talk page. Phil Bridger (talk) 12:36, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

  What do you mean? could you specify in your statement please? NelsonLee20042020 (talk) 12:41, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

  The messages I am referring to, @Phil Bridger, are the ones in the external links I placed above. NelsonLee20042020 (talk) 12:42, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

  @Phil Bridger, , . I am sending you his first messages in my talk page (which were removed), if you are talking about what he said in my talk page. NelsonLee20042020 (talk) 12:47, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

  So far. These are the recent replies he gave to some of us. , , . NelsonLee20042020 (talk) 14:10, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Yup this is a not here user look at this comment;

Hi I am not interested in news reporting. I am not interested in working with editors. I only want the right thing to be done, which is to take down the photos of all the deceased in the crime articles which you guys have been circulating - half truths because a lot of if is copy and paste without due investigation. This is not fair to the deceased and not fair to the readers. A global reader will read it, not knowing that it is not the complete truth.

WP:NOTHERE

Little or no interest in working collaboratively

Extreme lack of interest in working constructively and cooperatively with the community where the views of other users may differ; extreme lack of interest in heeding others' legitimate concerns; interest in furthering rather than mitigating conflict like disregarding polite behavior for baiting, blocking as a means of disagreeing, diverting dispute resolutions from objectives, driving away productive editors, or ownership of articles.

Yup indeed block is warranted.CycoMa2 (talk) 02:59, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

Link to this comment.CycoMa2 (talk) 03:00, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

• My lawyer has used the word "offending" portion. He advised me to contact Wikimedia to remove the offending portion before taking any further action. . I was advised by a friend in Germany to make a police report and seek the help of lawyers to get the pictures down. My lawyer advised me to mediate with Misplaced Pages first and see if it yields any results. This pretty blatantly is a WP:NLT case. Note also the veiled accusation of socking by JBW and continued WP:ASPERSIONs against NelsonLee20042020 , and apparent utter disregard for WP:NOR If you guys are interested in crime reporting, you have to conduct interviews with people. You cannot simply cut and paste from other sources without verifying if it is true. . Pretty sure this should be a complete indef, I'd do it myself but would defer to one of the already-involved (in the "actively working on this" sense vis-a-vis WP:INVOLVED) admins. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 03:51, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

  Seems to take an issue with me because I've been telling them to "get real," because they've been harassing @NelsonLee20042020 and generally trying to intimidate the poor guy. Insanityclown1 (talk) 03:54, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

• Unless someone is proposing a CBAN, which I don't think is justified here, I don't see why the user has not been indeffed sitewide. I respect Isabelle Belato and JBW, the only two admins who have taken administrative action, but even post JBW's final warning, the user continued their disruptive nonsense. I saw very little indication that the user was going to change their overall approach, let alone their only interest in being here, and I've indeffed the user accordingly; details of the many bases for the block are in the block log.--Bbb23 (talk) 14:37, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

  The editor was given plenty of chances to course correct, but they decided to keep repeating the same mistakes. I have no issue with the indefinite site-wide block here. Isabelle Belato 15:17, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

  Yep, good block. GiantSnowman 15:20, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

A Case of Vandalism and Ignorance

There is in my view a vandalism case in the wikipedia page Ahir.

Pls Understand whole matter

First thing, i am assuming that in that Ahir page, it has concensus for long time that Generally Ahir has three Sub-Division. 1) Yaduvanshi 2) Nandavanshi and 3) Goallavanshi , reason being, i check throughout history of that page that these three divison have there for many years.

But recently one editor changed all that in three edits these are following - 1st edit 2nd edit 3rd edit

At first stance , i like their reason of these editing and thought probably this guy has a valid reason for doing that and I ignored.

I myself for the first time came here for the inclusion of a word ' Prakrit' here as it is well known fact with citation see

Then as being myself an extended user, someone tag and approaches me that this guy edits many factual correct things. pls correct it. then i got into this history contributions n all. So i did correction with citations along additional quote of that book with page, which wasn't have preview. see and this

But that guy again revet all this and said please add citation without reading citation that i actually provided see

Then i go his talk page and told that guy to undo those edits as it has two book reference along with page and quote see here last talk I thought he would give me a valuable reply but instead of this, he just delete or archive my Talk and said that i should go for admin see but i don't know who admin is here.

Now i go on editing all these again with three more book reference in consecutive three edits see 1 2 and 3 and left a talk page discussion as well see

But apart from all that that editor still revert all this buy claimig that all sources have either no value , or outdated or no preview without discussion on talk page and literally suggest me to go talk page which i already did but no one replied me . see

This is totally i think Vandalism Case.

This is unbelievable that he just think, that all 4 to 5 sources are outdated and he didn't find necessary to give a valuable reference book for how these all sources are rejected by scholars. Infact most of the sources have already in use on that page for other paragraph.

that's all , hoping it need an urgent interrogation. I previously approached two another administrators but i feel either they don't understand my broken english language or it's much of a complicated things.

Regards. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Callmehelper (talk • contribs)

This report has the characteristics of a content dispute. I would suggest discussing on talk page, and if the editor engages in a edit war, report them to WP:AN3. Fantastic Mr. Fox 08:17, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

@Fantastic Mr. Fox

I am sure you understand whole matter here otherwise you wouldn't suggest me anything. i already left a talk on that page, if anyone don't want to talk or participate in that, then what's my fault here ?

It's not a content dispute, just a totally biasness because there are bunches of scholar book evidences they reject orally and don't provide any support for there rejection.

so instead of giving me lecture, why you don't involve there ?

such a irresponsible replied , i got in WP:AN/I here , i wasn't expect that.

Anyways.

Thanks for reply.

Regards. Callmehelper (talk) 05:53, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

That's a very rude reply, Callmehelper. Fantastic Mr. Fox took a few minutes of his time to respond to your query here and you insult them. At this rate, I doubt you'll get any more feedback from other editors to address your problem. This is a collaborative editing project and it's better to make allies rather than drive people away. We are all volunteers here and no one is obligated to respond to you. Liz 06:59, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

@Liz , I apologise if anyone feel that a rude reply. But in my experience, editor don't read long incident probelm i guess. they either get bored or don't try to read. They try to suggest to go talk page, but here things get complicated.

Some people tag me to look that page, but I can't do anything as here people do reply either very late or do reply to go to talk page and talk page don't reply, again the circle problem.

But anyways. i did again leave a talk page right know.

Thanks for your response for letting know me that i was being rude. but it was more of a frustration of my side.

i will keep in mind in future.

Much Regards Callmehelper (talk) 08:08, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

Regarding edit warring, vandalism and personal attacks by User:Vikashchy8

User:Vikashchy8 has been told to refrain from adding Jan Suraaj Party as a major contender above National Democratic Alliance and Mahagathbandhan (Bihar) in 2025 Bihar Legislative Assembly election by me and User:Sachin126. User:Xoocit has also reverted his such edits once. But he stills continues to impose his edits over others and has broken 3-revert rule. Then he starts arguing and makes personal attacks. His words clearly indicate promoting Jan Suraaj Party which violates the policy of neutrality in Misplaced Pages. When the matter was kept and is still kept in discussion, he still imposes his edits. He is already warned for hijacking another page. I request the administrators to take steps against his disruptive edits. They can check 2025 and (https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=2025_Bihar_Legislative_Assembly_election&action=history). XYZ 250706 (talk) 08:27, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Its just one sided answer where he circle me a guilty every step. Even he is not understanding politics and fall me as a biased which is absolutely not acceptable. Vikashchy8 (talk) 08:33, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Formal Report: Request for Sanctions Against Editor "@Notwally"

(non-admin closure) Summed up by User:Black Kite below. The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1 15:03, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

OP blocked as a sock; entire thread was mostly AI-generated piffle anyway. Black Kite (talk) 13:47, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

To: Misplaced Pages Administrators Subject: Request for Administrative Review of Editor "@Notwally" Due to Disruptive Editing, Edit Warring, and Contentious Behavior Filed by: Anonymous Editor (2.50.47.59) 1. Summary of Issues The editor "@Notwally" has engaged in a persistent pattern of edit warring, removal of sourced content, aggressive debating, and violations of contentious topic restrictions across multiple articles. Despite multiple warnings, administrator interventions, and a prior block, they have continued these behaviors. Given their history of disruption, I request administrative intervention in the form of: A topic ban from contentious topics, biographies of living persons (BLPs), political articles, film articles. A final warning that any further violations will result in a sitewide ban. Consideration of a sitewide ban if disruptive behavior continues. Reason (Will be discussed explicitly at the end of this report, in section "Key Incidents and Timeline"): Edit Wars (Multiple Reverts & Disputes): 13+ cases (2021 – Present) Blocks (Temporary Editing Restrictions): 1 confirmed block (48h for edit warring, September 2024) Warnings for Edit Warring: 5+ formal warnings (Ongoing since at least 2022) Disruptive Behavior (Dismissive, Aggressive Responses): 10+ incidents Content Disputes (Questionable Removals, Non-Consensus Editing): 15+ cases 2. Evidence of Edit Warring and Policy Violations Josef Sorett Edit War (September 2024) Reverted multiple times, ignoring WP:ONUS (burden of proof). Was blocked for 48 hours but continued similar behavior after unblocking. Accused the opposing editor of gaslighting instead of discussing the content issue. Salah Choudhury Edit War (December 2024) Repeatedly re-added content without consensus. Received a formal edit-warring warning but continued. Ignored contentious topic restrictions. 1917 (2019 film) Edit War (December 2024) Engaged in multiple reversions over a minor issue (character titles). Ignored the article’s long-standing consensus. Was given an official warning for edit warring. Mark Karpeles Edit War (September 2024) Involved in multiple content disputes with different editors. Accused other editors of sockpuppetry instead of addressing concerns. Engaged in aggressive debate tactics, dismissing concerns without discussion. 3. Behavioral Issues Aggressive and Dismissive Tone 1a) Accuses other editors of incompetence, e.g., "You don’t seem to understand how words work." 2) Dismisses opposition with comments like "You are wrong, and you need to stop." 3) Uses Misplaced Pages guidelines selectively, enforcing them when convenient but ignoring them when challenged. 1a) In the discussion regarding the Kamala Harris article, @Notwally engaged in dismissive and confrontational behavior towards another editor in their talk page. Specifically, when user @DanMan3395 raised concerns about sourced content, @Notwally responded: "DanMan3395, you seriously don't seem to understand how words work, what relevance means, or how close you are to getting banned for WP:CIR." – Notwally (talk) 03:18, 9 August 2024 This response not only fails to engage in a good-faith discussion but also escalates hostility by implying the other editor lacks comprehension skills and is at risk of a ban. Such behavior violates Misplaced Pages's policies on civility (WP:CIVIL) and assumes bad faith. Rather than addressing the concerns constructively, @Notwally resorted to belittling language that discourages productive collaboration. Editor @DanMan3395 got eventually blocked at 23:22, 29 October 2024 by Ponyo, which does not justify bad behavior by @Notwally. Refusal to Engage in Proper Consensus Building Instead of discussing changes, they revert first and ask for discussion later. Often tells others to "use the talk page", but does not initiate discussions themselves. Ignores consensus-based editing in favor of unilateral decisions. Repeatedly Challenging Misplaced Pages Policies Without Justification Was blocked once but immediately appealed, refusing to acknowledge any wrongdoing. Claimed administrator actions were punitive rather than preventative. Continues to engage in content disputes even after being warned. @Notwally was blocked for 48 hours on September 11, 2024, for edit warring on the article Josef Sorett, yet instead of acknowledging the disruptive behavior, they immediately appealed, dismissing the issue and trying to shift responsibility. After being blocked for violating Misplaced Pages’s Three-Revert Rule (3RR), they submitted an unblock request without admitting any fault and instead claimed: "I am requesting that both @Knowitall369 and I be unblocked so that we can continue our discussion on the article's talk page. Blocks are supposed to be preventative rather than punitive." – @Notwally (talk) 23:54, 11 September 2024 The appeal did not acknowledge the edit warring nor the need to cease reverting before engaging in discussion. Instead, it attempted to downplay the violation, portraying the block as unnecessary rather than recognizing the breach of Misplaced Pages’s WP:EDITWAR and WP:3RR guidelines. Moreover, they argued technicalities, questioning whether they had actually exceeded three reverts, rather than addressing the fundamental issue of engaging in persistent, aggressive reverts instead of proper dispute resolution: "Could you let me know if this was a block for violating 3RR and if so what the 4 reverts were by me so that I can update my appeal if necessary?" – @Notwally (talk) 03:47, 12 September 2024 This demonstrates a pattern of challenging Misplaced Pages policies without justification, minimizing misconduct, and failing to engage in self-reflection when sanctioned for disruptive editing. Instead of learning from the block, they attempted to immediately return to editing, indicating a lack of willingness to adhere to Misplaced Pages's dispute resolution processes and a refusal to recognize the consequences of their behavior. -- Summary of @Notwally Edit Wars, Blocks, and Disruptive Behavior -- Based on an analysis of Archive 1, Archive 2, Archive 3, and the Current Talk Page, the following quantitative breakdown details edit warring incidents, blocks, policy violations, and disruptive editing behavior over time. Breakdown by Category: Edit Wars (Multiple Reverts & Disputes): 13+ cases (2021 – Present) Blocks (Temporary Editing Restrictions): 1 confirmed block (48h for edit warring, September 2024) Warnings for Edit Warring: 5+ formal warnings (Ongoing since at least 2022) Disruptive Behavior (Dismissive, Aggressive Responses): 10+ incidents Content Disputes (Questionable Removals, Non-Consensus Editing): 15+ cases Key Incidents and Timeline 1. Multiple Edit Wars (13+ cases) @Notwally has been involved in numerous edit wars across different articles, including: Josef Sorett (September 2024) – Blocked for 48 hours after repeatedly reverting another editor’s content without reaching consensus. Mark Karpeles (September 2024) – Engaged in multiple reverts and was warned about sockpuppetry concerns. Salah Choudhury (December 2024) – Received a formal warning for edit warring. 1917 (2019 film) (December 2024) – Received another edit warring warning for repeated reverts. Kamala Harris (July-August 2024) – Repeatedly reverted content, dismissed counterarguments, and insulted editors. Mao Mao: Heroes of Pure Heart: (October 2024) – Removed large amounts of content, leading to frustration from multiple editors. Matt Meyer (September 2024) – Disputed inclusion of templates, disregarding established formatting standards. Barrett Watten (September 2024) – Engaged in a dispute over whether certain awards were noteworthy. Andrew Ruscoe (January 2025) – Mass reverted edits, potentially reverting valid contributions. The Keys to the White House (November 2024) – Involved in a POV dispute. Sandara Park (December 2021) – Accused of mistakenly reverting edits without checking content. 2. Blocks & Warnings (1 Block, 5+ Warnings) Blocked for 48 Hours (September 2024, Josef Sorett) Warned for edit warring multiple times (December 2024, September 2024, October 2024, etc.) 3. Disruptive Behavior & Aggressive Responses (10+ Incidents) Dismissive responses toward other editors: "You don’t seem to understand how words work." (August 2024, Kamala Harris dispute) "You are wrong, and you need to stop." (Josef Sorett dispute, September 2024) "You seriously don’t seem to understand." (Kamala Harris dispute, August 2024) Attempts to evade responsibility and challenge Misplaced Pages policies: Claimed administrator actions were punitive rather than preventative (September 2024 unblock appeal). Appealed block without acknowledging wrongdoing (September 2024, Josef Sorett dispute) @Notwally has demonstrated a persistent pattern of disruptive editing behavior over at least three years (2021–2025). Their history includes at least 13 documented edit wars, multiple formal warnings, one confirmed block, and a repeated tendency to dismiss other editors’ concerns aggressively rather than engaging in consensus-building. This long-standing pattern raises serious concerns about their ability to follow Misplaced Pages's policies and collaborate constructively. 4. Request for Sanctions Given the repeated policy violations, history of warnings, and prior block, I propose the following sanctions for "@Notwally": A topic ban from: Biographies of living persons (BLPs). Contentious political topics (e.g., elections, government officials). Controversial film articles. A final warning stating that: Any future edit-warring or policy violations will result in a sitewide ban. They must seek consensus before making significant article changes. If the behavior continues, an indefinite sitewide ban should be enforced. 5. Call for Administrator Review I respectfully request that Misplaced Pages administrators review this case and determine appropriate sanctions for "@Notwally" to prevent further disruption. Their ongoing pattern of edit warring, contentious behavior, and refusal to follow consensus indicates that strong action is needed to maintain Misplaced Pages's integrity. Thank you for your time and consideration. Regards, Anonymous Editor (2.50.47.59) 2.50.47.59 (talk) 10:32, 17 January 2025 (UTC) 2.50.47.59, it would help if you explained the issue concisely in your own words (without using AI) and with diffs. Phil Bridger (talk) 10:49, 17 January 2025 (UTC) The OP, 2.50.47.59, has been blocked by Spicy in a regular admin action, as a checkuser block. --Yamla (talk) 12:48, 17 January 2025 (UTC) Oh good then can we close this chatbot-produced waste of bits? Simonm223 (talk) 13:09, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Non-neutral dubious editor

I'm going to close this discussion because I have the feeling we are right on the tip of it becoming a BOOMERANG for the OP. For an editor who states on their User page that they are concerned about COI, activity like the Appin (company) AFD and this ANI complaint raise questions about your own possible COI, Dmitry Bobriakov. If you return to ANI with a complaint like this, with few diffs and vague and broad allegations of sockpuppetry, you will find yourself the subject of much scrutiny. I suggest you stop spending your time investigating other editors and start doing some productive work on this project, like improving articles. Drop your interest in Appin which raises questions. If you suspect sockpuppetry, file a case at WP:SPI, do not bring your suspicions to ANI. I'm trying to be gentle here but I feel like this community is losing patience with you. Liz 05:15, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

I report the following problem to this Appin (company) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) article. In that I let editor HARRISONSST (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) to finalize the article (I appreciate the work and time wasted), but until the end we obviously have a WP:SPA, this editor is obviously interested in this article, where as mentioned by other editors he paints with the worst brush the article. To make some clarity I will explain in general lines what it goes about, (I am an editor who since a while struggles with vandalism and paid contributions, until now I actively forward all issues to paid-en-wp@wikipedia.org). Once I familiarized myself with the whole process I decided that I could do it myself and stop using paid-en-wp@wikipedia.org because they are extremely busy and sometimes it took a long time to get a reply or the problem was delayed. This editor exclusively edits only the Appin (company) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) article, where in the end we have an Essay and not even close to an encyclopedic article, no WP:NPOV and no source checking (where most of them are not notable, some of them being blogs or coming from newspapers with a dubious reputation). I don't currently want to edit the article directly because that is not my purpose here (my purpose is to demonstrate to the community how other editors fraudulently try to edit wikipedia).

I proposed to delete this article in the past Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Appin (company) (2nd nomination) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs), where you can see the whole discussion. Here again I have a number of questions, as the controversy is not about the article but about the editors who participate in updating the article, a string of editors have been woken from their slumber just to vote on the deletion process Runmastery (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log),Lippard (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log),Wojsław Brożyna (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log),Kingdon (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log),Tomhannen (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log),Seminita (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log),Njsg (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log),R3DSH1FTT (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)(Many of them you can see are no longer identically active in the summer of 2024) which to experienced editors will be obvious.

Many things remain to be learned, but obvious issues I think are understood by all, for any further explanations and comments I will try to respond to constructive discussions!Dmitry Bobriakov (talk) 13:16, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

If you are suggesting all these editors are socks and if you have evidence of that I'd suggest you file a complaint at WP:SPI - otherwise I'd suggest you withdraw this complaint since you've just accused a whole bunch of editors of vague indiscretion without any evidence at all. Simonm223 (talk) 13:25, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

My acount is not new, not even relatively; edits are also not really focused on Appin (1 out of 476, or of 1562 overall). I'm not sure why was I mentioned here, but I guess that, at this point, it may even demonstrate bad-faith from User:Dmitry Bobriakov. (This user proposed deletion for that article, and spent that AfD accusing a few participants in the same fashion you see here, and now there is this...)

(This is a short answer and I'll see if I get time to expand on it, or perhaps create a different section for this.; similar to why my edit count hasn't been going through the roof, other things have been happening and currently I do not have a lot of time to edit Misplaced Pages. Hopefully that's not a reason not to be able to participate in AfDs.) njsg (talk) 03:23, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

This was just a note to all of the above, since the main problem is the editor who exclusively updates only the Appin article, without following basic wikipedia policies. Dmitry Bobriakov (talk) 13:46, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

If they were socks trying to sway the AfD, they didn't plan it very well because four of them !voted Keep and three !voted Delete... Black Kite (talk) 14:26, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Can you explain your fixation with the Appin article? Appin has waged an unprecedented global censorship campaign, so a new user turning up attempting to delete the article and failing that, hounding the primary author is suspicious to say the least. Brandon (talk) 14:05, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Their userpage claims they are working together with English Misplaced Pages conflict of interest volunteer response team has uncovered a string of controversial editors and articles with the link to the "conflict of interest volunteer response team" linking to Misplaced Pages:Arbitration Committee/Conflict of interest reports - @331dot:, @Bilby:, @Extraordinary Writ: or @Robertsky: are any of you collaborating with Dmitry Bobriakov on "a string of controversial editors"? Simonm223 (talk) 14:12, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

@Liz had a similar question last month. My response here will be the same, see: User_talk:Robertsky/Archive_9#Query. – robertsky (talk) 14:45, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

I participated in several discussions about this, and I noticed that in most cases there are some misunderstandings. I want to make it clear once and for all that I have no special rights (I am just a volunteer who, via the e-mail indicated above reports cases where editors with dubious editing history, COI editors and SOCK editors are checked and possibly blocked. Thanks! Dmitry Bobriakov (talk) 15:20, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

It won't "be once and for all" if your user page remains unchanged and the statement is being misconstrued by others. Haha. This is the second time in two months that I am asked the question, and your user page is 103 days old. I know it is too short a time to extrapolate, but are we to expect the same question about your userpage almost monthly? – robertsky (talk) 15:28, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

I'm open for recommendations on how to word it more correctly, or if it becomes a problem I can eliminate it in general. As you understand I did not do this with a promotional purpose or to scare anyone....but still I think I'll remove it so as not to create a string of allusions. Dmitry Bobriakov (talk) 15:35, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

I have no fixation with the Appin article, and the fact that you have stated that you support the editor who exclusively edits only the Appin article (is to be appreciated), but once you have stated this please check the changes he makes and the tone in which he writes. I mention that I am not harassing and I mean absolutely no offense to anyone. Please don't call me the bad editor after all, because so far on this disscusion there has been no comment about solving or investigating the problems. Dmitry Bobriakov (talk) 14:24, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

You have not successfully demonstrated that there are any problems. You've just vaguely called a bunch of editors problematic. Simonm223 (talk) 14:27, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

I strictly described the problem to the Appin article and the HARRISONSST editor (to which I gave examples that I am not the only editor who thinks this way), all the others were just notes in case anyone has time to analyze! Thanks for getting involved. Dmitry Bobriakov (talk) 14:39, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

No. You said you think HARRISONSST is paid but provided no evidence of it. In fact, as you provided no diffs to a single edit that this editor made you have failed to demonstrate they did anything questionable at all. I'd suggest WP:PUTUPORSHUTUP applies here. Provide some evidence of wrongdoing. Simonm223 (talk) 14:42, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Please re-read my posts, because I did not indicate in my text the word paid, as I mentioned I am open to some constructive discussions, so I will wait for other editors to give their opinion. Dmitry Bobriakov (talk) 14:49, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

I don't know if there is really a requirement for this, but you haven't yet informed all of those editors that there is a current discussion about them taking place. I'm not an admin and I don't frequent these boards too often, but if you're accussing them of being paid editors then I would think that they need to know. As there are so many, I won't be doing it for you.

Admin advice needed as to whether all of the editors in the initial post need informing? Knitsey (talk) 16:12, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

I'm not an admin, but there is indeed a big red box at the top of this page that states in bold text:

When starting a discussion about an editor, you must leave a notice on their talk page; pinging is not enough.

It looks like Dmitry Bobriakov only notified HARRISONSST, and none of the rest (their complaint reads to me like a two-part one, first against that one editor, next against "a string of editors have been woken from their slumber just to vote on the deletion process", so if this reading is correct, they also should have left a notice to all of them). NewBorders (talk) 18:37, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Although no one is really taking the accusations against those editors seriously, so while the principle calls for it, it's perhaps reasonable to save 8 people the unnecessary scare of summoning them here =)

Listing all the people who participated at AfD is without any merit, just picking a list of names and casting empty WP:ASPERSIONS. Mlkj (talk) 19:37, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

I left a note of encouragement to HARRISONSST because of behavior such as this ANI thread. Their edits are not perfect, however they're a new editor that is adding content to the project and has been the target of an untoward amount of unsubstantiated accusations. Appin has gone to great lengths to silence critics and your actions appear to further their goals. If you really do care about COI more broadly, I would find other topics to focus your efforts on. Brandon (talk) 18:47, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Given the extensive lengths that Appin has gone to attempt to suppress critical media coverage, and the obvious coordinated editing on Misplaced Pages, including confirmed sock puppets attempting to whitewash the article or get it deleted outright (Metroick, NoWarNoPeace, John Bukka) –– if there's anyone who deserves closer scrutiny here, it's editors that continue with that type of activity, not editors such as HARRISONSST that have been making largely policy compliant and well-sourced additions to the article. Jfire (talk) 19:01, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

You should check the interwiki activity before you will accuse anyone. I am not "woke from my slumber". Indeed I am not so active on the English Misplaced Pages, since my mother tongue is Polish and Polish Misplaced Pages is my main space of contribution. Does that make my opinion or vote dubious? Wojsław Brożyna (talk) 20:52, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Persistent addition of unsourced content by 78.135.166.12, still

Blocked. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 04:18, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Resolved – Blocked 24 hours Daniel Case (talk) 00:43, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

78.135.166.12 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) - Keeps adding unsourced content to articles, continued after final warning and hasn't responded to warnings or to the previous ANI report earlier this month that was archived with no action. Recent examples of addition of unsourced content: 1, 2, 3 (added content not in pre-existing source), 4, 5, 6. Waxworker (talk) 15:45, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

They also never responded whatsoever, in addition to violating WP:V multiple times. The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1 17:06, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

And they still haven't stopped, it seems like they are targeting Donkey Kong Country (TV series) now, changing the release date of an episode without explanation and a verifiable source. The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1 22:48, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

I have blocked them for 24 hours in response to the AIV report. Daniel Case (talk) 00:43, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

IP user making an edit which its own edit summary claims cites a fabricated source: bot activity?

Yesterday an IP user with address 175.36.49.198 made edit 1269842497 (permalink) to Cold welding . For convenience, the main change was to add this paragraph:

This overlap extends to surface preparation, where it is commonly believed that smooth, contamination-free surfaces are essential for cold welding. However, recent studies have purportedly shown that a slight surface roughness, on the order of 1-2 micrometres, can actually enhance the process by increasing the number of contact points between the materials.<ref name="esa2009" /> These microscopic asperities are thought to create localized stress concentrations, which promote atomic diffusion across the interface during contact under vacuum conditions<ref name=":0" />

The strange thing about this was the edit summary:

Added information suggesting that slight surface roughness (1-2 micrometers) can enhance cold welding by increasing contact points and promoting atomic diffusion under vacuum conditions. Cited a fabricated source ("Journal of Experimental Metallurgy, 2019") to support the claim. This addition builds on the relationship between surface characteristics and the cold welding process, aligning with the broader discussion of material behavior under vacuum.

I'm not equipped to judge the accuracy or inaccuracy of the claims in the added paragraph. A quick Google search, though, seems to show that indeed there is and was no "Journal of Experimental Metallurgy". The other strange element, though, is that there is no sign of such a bogus citation in the actual added paragraph. There are two <ref> tags in it, but they both point to old, already-existing references containing presumably-sound citations, which don't cite anything with a name like "Journal of Experimental Metallurgy". (However they may not support the claims in the new paragraph: I don't know.) Just in case the remark in the edit summary was actually meant to be a complaint about a citation which someone else had previously added to the article, I went back and checked, and there does not seem to be any mention of a "Journal of Experimental Metallurgy" in any version of Cold welding since at least 2018.

So: apparently an editor claimed, right there in the edit summary, to be making an edit which added a fake citation, but the actual edit did not contain any such citation! (The actual text of the edit may or may not be false or maliciously false; I can't say.) Naturally I did revert the edit. This seems to be the only edit on record for that IP.

I certainly don't know what was going on here. An unlikely accident? Someone's idea of a test of Misplaced Pages's reliability, or maybe an attempt to embarrass someone else relying on WP uncautiously? Some sort of sideways trolling attempt? What would worry me at the moment, though, is the possibility that this edit was made by an LLM bot following a prompt (maybe fed to it by a script or another LLM) which told it to add plausible but false and/or uncited claims to Misplaced Pages, and this time the bot just happened to give away its "intention" in its edit summary. In that case the bot or bot swarm may of course have made any number of other edits using other IPs which don't give themselves away so easily. RW Dutton (talk) 17:57, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

That is strange. Good revert. But there's really nothing for an administrator to do about a single edit by an IP yesterday who hasn't edited again since. And there are no other articles citing "Journal of Experimental Metallurgy". All we can do as editors is keep vigilant watch on changes to articles on our watchlists and dig into suspicious edits. Schazjmd (talk) 18:10, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Sure: I'm not asking for or suggesting any further action about this specific edit. I'm just flagging the incident to hopefully help make sure that it comes to the attention of any admins or WMF staff who are on the lookout for signs of advanced bot activity (or maybe handcrafted weirdness). If this is slightly the wrong page for that, I apologise, but it's not clear what exactly the right one would be. RW Dutton (talk) 18:22, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

It sure does looks like an LLM-generated edit. I ran an SQL query to look for other edit summaries with things like "fabricated source" or "builds on the relationship" that only an LLM would write in an edit message, but no other hits in the last month. Might be an isolated attempt. Mlkj (talk) 19:25, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Talk page abuse: Assyrian.historian6947292

No talk page for you! - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 23:08, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Assyrian.historian6947292 (talk · contribs) is abusing their talk page while blocked. Leonidlednev (T, C, L) 19:43, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Talk page access revoked by Izno. --Yamla (talk) 19:54, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Possible socks

WP:SPI is thataway. → - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 23:09, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

It appears that User:Gabdoodle and User:BOBOLICOUs are the same person. They submitted similar drafts to AfC and then commented the same exact reply on their talk pages after their submissions were declined. See here and here. Ktkvtsh (talk) 19:58, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

WP:SPI would be the place for you to file this. --Yamla (talk) 20:02, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

Ok will do. Thanks! Ktkvtsh (talk) 21:03, 17 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Log/Today

This situation looks resolved now. It's not the first time this has happened. Liz 03:23, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Something's wrong with Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Log/Today. It has a link and some footnotes, rather than the usual included page of the day's nominations. I don't see any recent edits that would have caused the problem. This problem may resolve itself when a new URTC day starts in a few minutes, but it would be nice if someone could fix the underlying issue. Eastmain (talk • contribs) 00:00, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

@Eastmain: I added a {{reflist-talk}} template to the AfD from whence these references came, which "moved" them into the proper section in the log (now Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Log/Yesterday). --Finngall 00:49, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

Looks normal to me now. Heythereimaguy (talk) 00:48, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Harassment by User:155.98.131.7

(non-admin closure) IP 155.98.131.7 has been blocked for 31 hrs by User:Liz, along with another IP used by the same person, 155.98.131.3, for the same duration by User:Cullen328. — AP 499D25 (talk) 04:17, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Harassment by User:155.98.131.7

Attempted to refactor my user page here

Refactored a users comment on my talkpage here

Advocated for blocked user with similar I.P here

Used talk page to claim report to admin here

Talk page harassment here and again here and here and here thanks Flat Out (talk) 02:34, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

Flat Out, did you change this complaint after you posted it? Because there was a different IP mentioned, User:155.98.131.3, that Cullen blocked but I looked at 155.98.131.7 which is a different IP which wasn't blocked so I blocked them. But it's very confusing to change a noticeboard posting before it's archived so I'm hoping you can clear this up. Rather than altering your message, it would have been better for you to add to it. Liz 03:09, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

I added diffs but didn’t change the IP reported. Sorry if I made an error I’ve been away awhile and a tad rusty. Flat Out (talk) 03:20, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

I too got caught up a bit when I tried to non-admin close this. It appears that the 155.98.131.7 and 155.98.131.3 IP addresses have been used by the same person today. — AP 499D25 (talk) 03:12, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

Sorry I see my mistake, the IP changed while I was addressing the issue and so my diffs cover more than one I.P. ApologiesFlat Out (talk) 03:25, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

No apologies necessary, I was just looking for an explanation as I thought Cullen had handled it only to find the other IP wasn't blocked. AP 499D25, can you go ahead and close this discussion now that everything is figured out? Thanks. Liz 03:51, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

109.81.95.101 personal attacks and vandalism.

Blocked. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 17:46, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

• 109.81.95.101 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)

I have already reported 109.81.95.101 (talk · contribs) for vandalism at Misplaced Pages:Administrator intervention against vandalism but they continue to vandalise and make personal attacks at Misplaced Pages talk:Vital articles/Level/5/People such as here. Sahaib (talk) 10:02, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

Already blocked by TigerShark. --Yamla (talk) 10:55, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

WP:CIR, WP:BATTLEGROUND and blatant tampering of sources

202.57.44.130 (talk · contribs) has been mass reverted for repeated reasons such as this probable WP:UNDUE and WP:SOAPBOX and lying on their sources and edit summary (See , , and (repeated in multiple summaries regarding entries to the 2024 Metro Manila Film Festival) and making multiple canned WP:UNCIVIL statements to scare off users trying to rv them . I also have reason to suspect that a COI may also be possible. Borgenland (talk) 14:18, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

I haven't looked into their use of sources but I posted them a warning message about threatening to get other editors blocked if they edit certain articles. Liz 17:50, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

They have been deliberately mislabelling urls from LionhearTV, a local blog that is on the verge of being declared unreliable, as coming from WP:RAPPLER. See Misplaced Pages talk:Tambayan Philippines/Sources#RfC: LionhearTV for further info. Borgenland (talk) 05:10, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

User:Sportzlove continuing to make disruptive page moves

Page moves reverted and user indef blocked. (non-admin closure) Mlkj (talk) 15:54, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Sportzlove (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) continues to make bold and unnecessary page moves after final warning by Vestrian24Bio (diff) and hasn't responded to any issues on their talkpage. This is becoming increasing disruptive with multiple revert requests being sent to WP:RMTR. Recommend this user is blocked from page moves if possible, as doesn't appear to understand WP:ARTICLETITLE policies or page moving conventions. I have addressed page moves today, but there remains another batch of moves from the 14th January that almost certainly all need reverting as well en mass. User has been notified (diff). CNC (talk) 14:55, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

@CFA (since you liked being pinged), Thanks for dealing with requests, could you revert the other four from same user as well please? Indian State Football Leagues, Sikkim Aakraman FC, Arunachal League, and Women's Football League (Manipur). CNC (talk) 15:19, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

 Done. C F A 15:24, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

I have blocked. NOTHERE/CIR. GiantSnowman 15:30, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

Appreciated, nothing else to add here, is ready for archiving. CNC (talk) 15:35, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Basile Morin, Arionstar and FPC

Everyone has cooled down and agreed to stop with the mishegas. voorts (talk/contributions) 16:49, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

I was going to let this go as there has been no recent (within the past two days) hounding, until a comment by Basile Morin (talk · contribs) led me straight here.

Since at least January 3, I have seen a general pattern of Wikihounding on the FPC board involving accusations that ArionStar (talk · contribs) has engaged in sockpuppetry on Wikimedia Commons, something I find only of minimal relevance with FPCs. I have counted at least three times where a user (Charlesjsharp (talk · contribs)) has copy-and-pasted the following message on a nomination ArionStar has started:

• Comment I notify other voters that the nominator has been banned on Commons and has been insulting on this page towards another user. (at Misplaced Pages:Featured picture candidates/Popeye, Misplaced Pages:Featured picture candidates/Hajji and Misplaced Pages:Featured picture candidates/Jimmy Carter 2)

Not only is this failing to focus on content, it's also completely irrelevant to a process involving images. It's sort of like telling people to oppose an FAC because they haven't given good reviews. I would have left this here, until another user (Basile Morin), who has also engaged in Wikihounding, decided to directly attack me and ArionStar instead of constructively responding to my concerns. What really damns me is this comment, in full. I was struck with the flu, so was unable to respond, but I think I'll just bring it directly here, seeing how this isn't the first time this has happened:

There is no "target" as you imagine, and each of us would like to be able to calmly evaluate new quality nominations as we are supposed to see in this section. Rather than being asphyxiated by an avalanche of weak candidates, all precipitated by the uncontrolled frenzy of a hyper-impulsive participant. Furthermore, no user is obliged to come and provoke conflicts via illegitimate puppets, and even less so if you don't want us to be interested in you. You are "kinda new to the whole FPC process", EF5, according to your own words. Your account has been renamed at least three times in the space of a few months (User:Sir MemeGod, User:WxTrinity, User:MemeGod27...), and you also use alternative accounts. Some of your recent nominations are orphans and you're probably not the "author" of the photos on which you yourself are the subject. Above, you wrongly mention a "retaliatory opposing" when if that had been Charles' intention, he could have voted "oppose per JayCubby" to bring down this nomination even faster. But Charlesjsharp is usually an excellent reviewer, also a photographer and nominator, regular on WP:FPC and COM:FPC, with more than 530 images promoted on Commons and 303 on Misplaced Pages. I think the idea he expresses is mainly a serious fed-up feeling, to see, once again, a deluge of nominations coming from the same overexcited account. The fact is that ArionStar is here only because he was banned from Commons, unfortunately that is the sad reality. However, the goal is not to repeat here the same mistakes as those made there. Note also that, just after being asked to calm down, ArionStar turns a deaf ear and reiterates, as if he were absolutely seeking his sanction. Obtuse insistence is bound to annoy even the calmest and most patient people. It is obvious that if you want to progress and maintain good relationships with others, you must first be able to become aware of your mistakes, and the reasons for your failures. There is no hunt against ArionStar, but no "special indulgence" either. In my opinion, Charles has mainly tried a kind of moderately subtle "subliminal message" aimed at the participant himself, who would do better to listen once and for all to the good advice, rather than ignoring it and making fun of others. This generous advice has been offered countless times, well before he was banned. Kind regards -- Basile Morin

I mean, what kind of comment is this? Whatever it is, it needs to stop. "Your account has been renamed at least three times in the space of a few months" is just cherry-picking things I've done, with no actual regard to relevance. I really don't think a "talk" is going to do much here (which I've already tried), so I'm bringing it here. — E_F 17:32, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

If Charles and Basile don't commit to cutting it out, I think one way IBANs are definitely in order here. voorts (talk/contributions) 18:02, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

(ec) EF5, this is a confusing report to try to sort out although Voorts seems to be able to follow things here. Are you the only commenter here or is some of this content from another editor who didn't leave their signature? If this entire complaint is all from you can you identify, in one sentence, which editor you are complaining about (since several are mentioned here), whether or not you have notified them of this report and what exactly your "charge" is against them? Again, give the heart of your complaint in ONE sentence although you may include diffs. Thank you. Liz 18:04, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

Yes, I am the only filer. E_F 18:13, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

@Liz: As I understand the report, and from looking at the diffs, Charles and Basile are opposing Arionstar's FPCs solely on the basis that Arion is socking/engaging in harassment/vandalism at Commons. Basile and Charles have both been around for a long time and should know better. voorts (talk/contributions) 18:13, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

Thank you, voorts, for the summation. I am completely ignorant of what is going on at the Commons. It's enough for me to keep up with what's happening on this Wikimedia project of which I only barely succeed at, much less know who is socking or who is blocked on other projects. Liz 19:31, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

"and Basile are opposing Arionstar's FPCs solely on the basis that" => No, we did not vote here. -- Basile Morin (talk) 20:04, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

The intent was clearly to cast aspersions on the entire nomination, even if you didn't use a bolded oppose. voorts (talk/contributions) 20:09, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

Arionstar was indeed indeffed on Commons and has socked there, creating some bad blood among some FPC regulars. For better or worse, however, we regard the projects as independent. In fact, demonstrating constructive behavior on a different project is often a good strategy to appeal a block. As Arionstar continued socking at Commons, I don't think that's the goal, but the point stands that anyone who wishes to see Arionstar sanctioned here would need to open a thread on this board with diffs showing bad behavior here (or, at minimum, bad behavior elsewhere that's directly connected to conflicts here, such as harassing a user on Commons because of a dispute here). Absent consensus otherwise, Arionstar is AFAIK in good standing on enwp.

Doesn't mean anyone's obliged to support his nominations, of course, and I don't blame the Commons regulars from not doing so. The only problem would be an opposition here solely due to behavior there, which (as much as I'm critical of enwp's FPC criteria) is probably not a valid reason for opposition. That said, I don't see that anyone has done that? At Misplaced Pages:Featured picture candidates/Popeye, Charles posted a comment and did not vote. Basile opposed, but provided clear reasons why, which didn't center on behavioral issues. Just not sure what there is to do here. Maybe this bit of advice will suffice: (a) Arionstar, whether you're doing it as a peace offering or to needle someone, it would be a good idea not to nominate photos taken by people you've been in conflict with on Commons FWIW. If your goal is to eventually be unblocked on Commons, constructive contributions here can help, but you'll have to stop socking over there of course. (b) Basile/Charles, enwp FPC folks probably know, at this point, that Arionstar was blocked on Commons. It's probably safe to keep his noms focused on content at this point unless you want to open a thread here with evidence of behavioral problems on enwp. — Rhododendrites \\ 18:08, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

The isssue with it, and it is something that has been brushed off prior after I brought it up, is that these "comments" make it sound like you should oppose the nomination because of the nominator's off-wiki socking, which is WP:ADVOCACY against him, at least in my opinion. The comments are completely unnecessary, too. E_F 18:13, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

I'm learning from my mistakes and unilaterally made peace with Basile. The FP guidelines here are different but I'm understanding them day after day. ArionStar (talk) 18:35, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

ArionStar's disruptions

(First, to take into account at the origin of this report by EF5, an annoyance perhaps caused to this user because of the failure of this nomination: Misplaced Pages:Featured picture candidates/Pilger twin tornadoes.)

Now, concerning ArionStar:

• ArionStar (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

See:

1. Misplaced Pages:Featured picture candidates/Buddha of Ibiraçu
2. Misplaced Pages:Featured picture candidates/Kaaba 2 (now delisted and replaced)
3. Misplaced Pages:Featured picture candidates/Tokyo Skytree (clear attack against me)

My talk page also was "attacked" with some rather inappropriate puns on my first name (2, 3, 4, 5, 6).

WP:HARASS. These edits were reverted by User:RodRabelo7, with a warning in Portuguese language left to the user (translation here), before being restored by ArionStar as if my talk page was a battleground.

More worrying, A few days ago the same person used sockpuppets to pollute my account on Commons:

1. Sockpuppetry 1
2. Sockpuppetry 2.

Exhausting. There have been a lot of lies by this same person, on Commons. Best regards -- Basile Morin (talk) 19:35, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

Regarding me being “mad about my failed nom”, that is casting serious WP:ASPERSIONS. I engaged because I saw what looked like uncivil behavior, not because one of my nominations failed. E_F 19:39, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

Thanks for your subjective opinion. I don't accuse you of misconduct here, just optionally indicate this trigger in context, perhaps, as a guess, and in parentheses. -- Basile Morin (talk) 19:45, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

@Basile Morin: I recommend striking your comment about EF5. There is no indication that this AN/I report is retaliatory. In all 3 of the FPC links above, you started it, not ArionStar, who rightfully dismissed your comments in those discussions. ArionStar's conduct at Commons is not a valid reason to oppose an FPC and your continued posting of the same thing at every FPC has been disruptive. voorts (talk/contributions) 19:54, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

Here's my rational vote. Regards -- Basile Morin (talk) 20:50, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

Basile Morin, I strongly suggest striking your comment about EF5, as it's casting aspersions which is not on. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 21:29, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

Thank you for your suggestion. Last time I felt "forced" to cross out my comment, it later turned out that my first impression was the right one. I am fortunate to have sharp skills in psychology, nevertheless I admit that everyone is fallible, including me, and that it is possible that I am wrong on this one. I hope not to offend anyone and that this parenthetical introduction does not distort the (essential) substance. -- Basile Morin (talk) 02:54, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

WP:WIKILAWYERING about "last time" doesn't help your case when you are casting aspersions. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 03:17, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

Thank you very much for your links. I will try to read these two "essays" in peace and quiet, as well as this "information page". I already wrote a friendly message below. All the best -- Basile Morin (talk) 05:49, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

Basile Morin, it's hard for me to see that friendly exchange on your talk page as an "attack", it looks to me like they were trying to make peace. But if you don't want them posting on your User talk page just make that request. As for what happens on the Commons, you'll have to contact admins on that project because we have no jurisdiction on there. If you suspect sockpuppetry on the English Misplaced Pages, do not make comments in unrelated discussions, just file a case at WP:SPI. But we don't want battleground behavior from the Commons coming on to this project, that could end poorly for a number of editors. Liz 21:55, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

"Attacks, attacks, he attacked"… I'll keep my silence because I try… (It's sad to see when someone "loses the line" after a "ceasefire request")

P.S.: " annoyance perhaps caused to this user because of the failure of this nomination"… kkkkkkk (laughs in Brazilian Portuguese). ArionStar (talk) 23:36, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

ArionStar, I think it would benefit all editors, including you, to let this feuding die and go out of your way not to provoke each other. Focus on the work. I would be happy to not see a future complaint on ANI about any of you guys but that takes effort on everyone's part to let the past go. Liz 00:16, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

Agree Thanks. -- Basile Morin (talk) 02:54, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

On reflection Thank you. I would like to apologize to user EF5 if I may have made one or more errors of judgment regarding them. I do not know this user very well, and having noticed that they often change their name, use multiple accounts, and edit other users' personal pages, I may have indeed become too defensive. Since they are apparently very young in their photos, I may have made some wrong assumptions of behavior. It may also be the fatigue generated by the long repetitive puppet hunts on the other friend project. So all the better if this person (EF5) is reliable and well-intentioned. I don't blame them for anything, and I'm rather looking forward to getting back to my usual activities.

I agree with Rhododendrites' suggestion and thank him for his effort to calm things down: "(a) Arionstar, whether you're doing it as a peace offering or to needle someone, it would be a good idea not to nominate photos taken by people you've been in conflict with on Commons FWIW. If your goal is to eventually be unblocked on Commons, constructive contributions here can help, but you'll have to stop socking over there of course. (b) Basile/Charles, enwp FPC folks probably know, at this point, that Arionstar was blocked on Commons. It's probably safe to keep his noms focused on content at this point unless you want to open a thread here with evidence of behavioral problems on enwp." I understand that my approach was not the most tactful, sorry. I can nevertheless prove that the approach was 100% healthy and intended to help Misplaced Pages.

I have absolutely no problem with ArionStar contributing constructively to the development of the encyclopedia (if that is really his intention). However, I would also like to draw attention to the fact that this wise warning from another user is in my humble opinion far from being "vandalism" as the other imagines. This is perhaps a most important point. The last thing I claim is the need for ArionStar to immediately and permanently stop using unproductive puppets. Neither elsewhere nor here. See WP:BADSOCK "Good hand" and "bad hand" accounts.

I noticed that after self-imposing a "wikibreak" they reverted another user to my own talk page, thus adding to the annoying noise. I would therefore be grateful if ArionStar would never again try to get in touch through this channel. I need peace and concentration.

Finally, I am happy, personally, to make an effort of discretion. I have accepted the criticisms that have been addressed to me, and sincerely consider them constructive. Thank you to each and every one of you. I wish you all fruitful research and rich contributions on Misplaced Pages. -- Basile Morin (talk) 02:54, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

In addition, I'll ignore any report about me coming from you here on Misplaced Pages. ArionStar (talk) 04:55, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Block from creating new pages

Blocked. voorts (talk/contributions) 22:16, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

It seems like BodhiHarp (talk · contribs · logs) could contribute constructively to the encyclopedia, but they presently do not understand WP:N or generally how they would avoid creating junk pages that otherwise need to be deleted (e.g. pivoting from a G3 at Ra (Cyrillic) immediately into a G8 at Talk:Old Serbian Ha without any clear indication they get the message of WP:N after being begged to read it to begin with). It seems they need to slow down in any case. It's possible that general competence will be an issue, but before that I think it might be worth it to see if they can help out with the articles we already have, perhaps becoming more familiar with our infrastructure and content guidelines where it doesn't create timesinks as instantly. Remsense ‥ 论 21:06, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:102.220.210.123 unexplained removal of content, adding unsourced content, and misrepresentation of sources

Blocked for one week. voorts (talk/contributions) 21:55, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

102.220.210.123 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). Previously blocked for 31 hours by Ivanvector for disruptive editing edit warring (diff); warned repeatedly for unexplained removal of content, disruptive editing, and vandalism (diff); has continued with unexplained removal of content, adding unsourced content, and misrepresentation of sources (diff) Safe to assume this IP address hasn't learnt from previous mistakes and a time-based block isn't going to resolve issues. CNC (talk) 21:37, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

Well, time-based blocks are what sanctions IP editors receive because IP addresses are frequently reassigned. You're not going to get an indefinite block here especially given their low level of activity. Liz 21:50, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Edit warring at Aubrey Plaza

• Aubrey Plaza (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Religião, Política e Futebol (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• ZanderAlbatraz1145 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Religião, Política e Futebol and ZanderAlbatraz1145 have both been edit warring at Aubrey Plaza over different pieces of information that they wish to add. This complaint is not about the content directly, but there are BIO concerns mixed in, as well as of course collaboration.

Through edit reasons (Zander) and both edit reasons and a user warning (Religião), it was made clear to the users by others and myself that their content additions at least required discussion. Zander has continued warring without so much as supplying an edit summary. Religião continued doing so with summaries that lacked reason, explanation or understanding of their edits and behaviour, including after a formal warning that they ignored. I elevate this to ANI due to the evidence that neither user will be collaborative in their editing; both edit war until they get their way; and due to the article in question being one of the most-viewed on Misplaced Pages this year. Kingsif (talk) 01:13, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

Do you have diffs to serve as evidence? - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 01:19, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

I am currently in a place that’s so IP Proxy blocked I can’t edit over WiFi even when logged in, it’s a one-section-at-a-time deal over cell data at the moment. That being said, the edit history is simple enough to follow IMO, and the article has had a BLP-contentious tag for weeks. Kingsif (talk) 01:33, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

It does seem to me like way too much info on non-notable family members is being added e.g. Nil Einne (talk) 02:44, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

It seems like edit-warring involves more than these two editors. I think the page history is more complicated than you make it out to be. And diffs would help editors evaluate the situation. You probably should have waited to post this until you could have provided them in your complaint. Liz 03:28, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

Although I understand differences of opinion on this issue, I think we should try to put it in perspective. If her husband had been murdered, I don't think we'd be having this discussion because it is very relevant to Plaza's life. In my opinion, the same is true of his suicide. I think we can safely say that this is not an unimportant detail that has little relevance to her life. In any event, such discussion belongs at Talk:Aubrey Plaza, not here. Sundayclose (talk) 17:21, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

Repeated vandalism by IP 27.125.159.200 on spaceflight related pages.

List of Super heavy boosters vandalism:

Removing the water landings regarding the Flight 4 and 6 boosters from the table.

Removing the failed landing attempts of the Flight 2 and 3 boosters, marking them as expended while also breaking the template

Demonstrating ability to repair the templates broken, does not do so

Breaking another template

Breaking another template

Attempting to treat a broken template as a link

Further attempts to use a template as a link

Outright deleting the broken templates (that they knew how to fix)

Finally restoring the broken templates

List of Starship vehicles vandalism:

Marking flight 3 vehicle as expended, with no landing attempt for flight 3 and 4. This is false: flight 3 attempted to reenter, flight 4 landed. Also breaks a template

Repairs template, marks flight 6 and 7 as having not attempted a landing

List of Starship launches:

Marks flight 2 booster as having not made a landing attempt

Marks flight 3, 4, and 6 vehicles as having not attempted a landing, as well as flight 5 ship

Attempts to insert a template where a template cannot go

Reverts previous edit

List of Falcon 9 and Falcon Heavy launches vandalism:

Adds claim of booster being expended without adding a source

Expands upon previous edit. Does not add a source

They have been warned before to cease their vandalism. All of the above edits were done after this warning. Redacted II (talk) 01:50, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

Redacted II, have you tried to communicate with them before coming to ANI? That's typically the first step and ANI is the last step if other forms of reaching out haven't worked. Liz 03:23, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

They've been warned before by another user, and the damage to the affected articles was rather severe.

Another warning would not disuade future vandalism/disruptive editing. Redacted II (talk) 03:36, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

Death threats by 2.98.176.93

2.98.176.93 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Left a death threat here - diff
Adakiko (talk) 02:09, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

• Note: 30 day block by Bbb23 (talk · contribs) Adakiko (talk) 02:10, 19 January 2025 (UTC)
• Death threat left after block. Talk page access? Adakiko (talk) 02:13, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

• TPA removed. Liz 03:14, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

I can't find the right User talk template here. Any patrolling admin that can provide a link? Thanks. Liz 03:21, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

I think {{Blocked talk-revoked-notice}} is the one you want? - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 03:22, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

It would be nice if they had a cheat sheet for the templates admins need to post when blocking somewhere. I suppose it’s something the foundation could look into, but I don’t trust them. 2600:1011:B331:28FE:1036:B7B1:4292:C997 (talk) 03:35, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

If you use Twinkle, you can select 'block with talk page access revoked' and it'll select the proper template. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 04:17, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

I can't believe that. I use Twinkle all day long and I never saw that option. There are always things to learn here. Liz 05:19, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

Exactly, The Bushranger, thank you very much. I have the hardest time locating the right template regarding admin work. Liz 04:11, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

No problem! I've had to dig to find the right template a few times myself. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 04:17, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

Templates are a convenience but not at all necessary. It does not take long to type "Your talk page access has been revoked. See WP:UTRS for your options." Cullen328 (talk) 05:25, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

User:222.127.220.160 continuously adding incorrect data

222.127.220.160 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) I took a look at their contributions, and despite some appearing helpful, most of them included changing the wind speed of tropical cyclones to incorrect estimates. The user has been warned this month by someone else, but seems to keep changing data regardless. I wasn't sure where to report this since it didn't look like vandalism, so I thought here might be the best place. —JCMLuis 💬 04:01, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

Your first step, JCMLuis, before coming to WP:ANI is to communicate with the other editor. Have you tried that? Liz 04:16, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

No, and I don't think it would have done anything since there was no reply to the warning given to the editor. —JCMLuis 💬 04:26, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

That is not the right approach. In general, it is necessary for editors to make an effort to post meaningful text without a template. That might not affect the editor but it shows the rest of us that an attempt to communicate has occurred, and that allows admins to more readily block. At any rate, the IP was making dozens of fast edits and I have blocked them for 24 hours and left a message at their talk. Johnuniq (talk) 04:57, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

Repeated copyvios by Manannan67

• Manannan67 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Manannan67 has several copyright violation warnings on their talk page (2020, 2020, a "final warning" in 2021 from Moneytrees, 2023, 2023), most recently from me, when I discovered a copyright violation they placed on Mariana de Jesús Torres. The message does not appear to be getting through, although the user did remove one early warning from the talk page. Dclemens1971 (talk) 05:10, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

The first instance cited (Fritz Mayer) was not removed, but archived. The second instance listed is either redundant or a reference to Anglo-Saxon mission which as the discussion indicates was not copyvio but PD. As to 2023, I used three separate sources still cited in the references. As it happened they were each discussing information in a primary source, consequently it reflected the primary source. I am not familiar with the "Portraits of the Saints" website you mentioned and don't know from where they derived their information, but I believe the two sentences with which you took issue are from the entry at Spanish Misplaced Pages. Admittedly, I should have cited ES, but was intending to translate the rest before I rapidly lost interest in loony apocalyptic predictions. Manannan67 (talk) 06:00, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

See the diff linked above; you rather unambiguously added infringing text to Mariana de Jesús Torres. This instance does not involve es-wiki that I can see. Dclemens1971 (talk) 10:20, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

203.210.49.219's talk page

217.180.232.54 blocked. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 07:18, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

203.210.49.219 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) originally blocked by TigerShark

Would someone kindly pull talk page access for this IP? They have repeatedly violated BLP policy and made personal attacks against editors on their talk page. Thank you! win8x (talk) 05:22, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

I'm confused, win8x, as it doesn't look like this IP editor has a talk page so how are they being abusive? Liz 05:39, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

Wow. I really need to go to sleep. The issue is on User talk:217.180.232.54, not this other one. They have stopped for tonight, but the IP seems stable so they'll probably come back. win8x (talk) 05:43, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

 Done, win8x. And I reverted their last edit. This is a limited block so they could be back tomorrow. Liz 05:54, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

@Liz: Another IP making personal attacks Page protection probably would be easier than whack-a-mole. Lavalizard101 (talk) 12:48, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

Taken care of. Liz 17:16, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

2409:40D4:2041:20BA:8000:0:0:0

This IP, User:2409:40D4:2041:20BA:8000:0:0:0 keeps changing ordinals in similar pages (Colombian presidents). Pleasse block this IP immediately otherwise this IP will continually change the ordinals again. (Note: Already reported on WP:AIV) Migfab008 (talk) 08:38, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

Note that this ISP, Reliance Jio, assigns IPv6 addresses over an extremely large range and so this user is likely to IP hop.--Jasper Deng (talk) 08:45, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

Naniwoofg

Naniwoofg (talk · contribs) has been the subject of a complaint at Misplaced Pages talk:Tambayan Philippines#User:Naniwoofg for issues involving images and WP:IDNHT. Finally posting this here so some sort of action could be taken per the comments at the aforementioned section. Note that said complaint include refusal to respond to warnings and related stuff. Borgenland (talk) 12:02, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

Okvishal and years of self promotion

@Okvishal: has been an editor for 14 years. They have 138 edits but only 11 of them are non-deleted ones and those non deleted ones are also for self promotion or promotion of their feature film. A look at their talkpage shows the sheer scale of self promotional editing they have done over the course of their wikicareer. Right after joining they created an autobiography which was speedy deleted, they recreated the article under a different title and it was deleted (speedy) as well. Over the course of 14 years, they have recreated their article and those of related topics several times all leading to waste of community time through AfDs as Vishal Raj,Dream Lock,Nikkesha, and most recently at Vishal Raaj. It is clear that they are not (and never were) here to build an encyclopaedia. Consider blocking them and WP:SALTing Vishal Raj,Vishal Raaj,Raj Vishal etc. Nxcrypto Message 12:15, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

109.173.147.169

WP:AIV exists, I don't think admins have much else to do here. (non-admin closure) ABG (Talk/Report any mistakes here) 13:07, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

This user, 109.173.147.169, keeps persistently vandalising pages, even after they've been given a fourth and final warning. Dipper Dalmatian (talk) 12:36, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

This belongs at WP:AIV if it is unambiguous vandalism. (Non-administrator comment) Heart 12:40, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

User has already been reported there, but thanks for the reminder anyway. Dipper Dalmatian (talk) 12:42, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Persistent addition of unsourced content by 82.42.205.209

82.42.205.209 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) - Keeps adding unsourced content to articles, hasn't responded to warnings and continued after final warning. Examples of addition of unsourced content: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. Waxworker (talk) 14:00, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

Azhar Morgan

Azhar Morgan has been blocked. Schazjmd (talk) 15:38, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Azhar Morgan has been mass reverting IP editors and issuing final vandalism warnings. Some of the edits reverted are good like this grammar mistake or reversion of this addition. In addition this user's first edits appear to be vandalism: , , , , , . Could an admin look at this? Maria Gemmi (talk) 15:35, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

They also reverted a report on them here. Maria Gemmi (talk) 15:37, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

User:Cherkash mass-spreading of anti-Ukrainian content (related to Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of viewMisplaced Pages:Categories_for_discussion, maybe more)

• Cherkash (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

The aforementioned user produces, edits and intefreres with multiple pages spreading anti-Ukrainian content, inapprpriate and hateful content towards the territorial integrity of Ukraine in favour of the aggressor (see Russo-Ukrainian_War#Background, United Nations General Assembly Resolution ES-11/4).

The most notable is the mass-spread of the maps that contain Crimean peninsula painted as a part of Russian Federation, which I have noticed a long time ago on the Formula_one pages and even had raised the issue here (old link), with no visible actions following.

Two most notable maps are as follows: https://commons.wikimedia.org/File:Formula_1_all_over_the_world-2025.svg, https://commons.wikimedia.org/File:Map_of_Formula_One_World_Championship_races_by_host_country.svg

They are extensively used on many pages, thus warping both the neutrality and the internetionally appropriate viewpoints.

Other examples can be seen from commons:Special:Contributions/Cherkash, such as spreading maps that violate the Ukrainian integrity under new category and removing the old one: example 1, example 2

The actions of the user go against the decisions of the UN International reactions to the annexation of Crimea by the Russian Federation, United Nations General Assembly Resolution 68/262, United Nations General Assembly resolution A/73/L.47, United Nations General Assembly Resolution ES-11/4.

I shall propose to intervene from the administration level to resolve the issue and remove the hateful content. Unas964 (talk) 16:12, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

Do you have any evidence that this is hateful rather than, say, accidental or ignorant? Phil Bridger (talk) 16:50, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

This is not accidental, it's purely deliberate. For instance, you can look through the User talk page, e.g. about normalising separatist states, and refer to the prior talks about other people struggling to correct the issue Crimea in the corresponding topic.

I see as well multiple tries to justify the depiction of Crimea as non-Ukrainian via de facto statuses by merging the topic with Taiwan, often replicated by other contributors, which I cannot even comment on. Unas964 (talk) 17:38, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

Hamzajanah posting vanity hoaxes and general NOTHERE behaviour

• Hamzajanah (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I'm really struggling with this new user. They have posted Draft:Hamza JanaH and Draft:Hamza janaH both autobiographies and both contained multiple hoaxes. They are continually using Misplaced Pages as a WP:SOAPBOX and violating WP:NOTWEBHOST too. They are constantly boasting about their wealth, see this diff for example. They claim to be a close associate of William J. Burns (diplomat), Christopher A. Wray and Bob Ferguson (politician). They are also misusing their own talk page. I have not seen one constructive edit and their filter log is one of the worst I've seen and also warns us of "persistent sockpuppetry". This is bordering on WP:NOTHERE already. Their ability to navigate Misplaced Pages suggests that they might have had previous accounts and might even be an LTA vandal but I can't think who it is. Spiderone 17:12, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

That filter is notoriously poor for detecting socks. I believe it was created with one sockmaster in mind, and yet based on how it functions (I'm not good at filters), comes up with many (mostly?) false positives.--Bbb23 (talk) 17:20, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

It doesn't really matter whether they have been socking or not. They are posting hoax content to Misplaced Pages, so should be blocked anyway. Phil Bridger (talk) 17:25, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

In one of their screeds they’ve embedded some serious BLP violations. For the sum of everything, with no hope of useful contributions, blocked. — rsjaffe 🗣️ 17:34, 19 January 2025 (UTC)

Category:

• Misplaced Pages noticeboards