Talk:Prahlad Jani: Difference between revisions

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			{{ITN talk \|date=2020-06-01 \|oldid=960073095}}
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	{{~~Rational~~ ~~Skepticism~~\|class=Start\|~~importance~~=~~Low}}~~		{{WikiProject banner shell\|class=Start\|living=no\|listas=Jani, Prahlad\|1=
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	{{WikiProject Alternative ~~Views\|class=Start\|importance=Low~~}}		{{WikiProject Alternative medicine}}
			{{WikiProject Alternative Views\|importance=Low}}
			{{WikiProject India\|gujarat=yes\|gujarat-importance=low\|importance=low}}
			{{WikiProject Skepticism\|importance=Low}}
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			{{User:MiszaBot/config
	==Style==
			\|maxarchivesize = 100K
	This article indirectly highlights the tension between science and religion, and has several sections which are less than encyclopedic. In particular, the section regarding the 2010 tests fails to adequately provide the scientific rigor in proving Mr. Jani's unprecedented ability or any rationale undermining it beyond some inflammatory comments. In full disclosure, I am biased against believing these claims, but I do not find enough objective information here to make any sort of informed opinion.<small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 22:10, 14 June 2010</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned -->
			\|counter = 2
	:We provide whatever information is available, as it may be helpful in forming a versatile view of the case. Currently there's not enough high quality 'scientifically proven' sources on the subject. As soon as new or better quality information becomes available it may be included into the article, or eventually replace the low quality fragments. The purpose of the article is not to make someone believe or discard the mentioned claims, but rather to provide the fullest possible information about the case. -- ] (]) 09:31, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
			\|algo = old(31d)

			\|archive = Talk:Prahlad Jani/Archive %(counter)d
	:I agree with the anon that there is no scientific rigour to counterbalance these unprecedented claims. ] <small><sup style="position:relative">]<span style="position:relative;bottom:-2.0ex;left:-5.2ex;*left:-5.5ex">]</span></sup></small> 04:37, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
			}}

			{{archives\|auto=yes\|search=yes\|age=31\|bot=Lowercase sigmabot III}}
	== Removed info ==
			== Cleaning ==

		⚫	This page needs info cleaning <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 11:47, 9 June 2014 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	This is about the last two removals by ], which he/she repeatedly removed, neglecting the effort to make the paragraphs as neutral as possible after his first removals.

			== God, God-man or Media propelled blind faith? ==
	The second removed para is a direct citation from the source, and I think it is vital to show that there are a number of scholars in India who support the claims, based on certain theories they deem viable.

			I specifically visited Chunriwali Mataji during my recent trip to India and I must add, with a lot of reverence due to my religious upbringing. Unfortunately, what I saw there was sheer blind faith on display. The media appears to have helped the hermit's claims, which I do not deny may be an ability that the hermit possesses through the ancient sciences of Yoga. It appears to be fairly common in India to interpret such "yogic ability" as an incarnation of God and it does not come as a surprise due to the level of blind faith, coupled with poor education and absence of scientific questioning and most importantly the "fear of god".
	The first para ] removed is a strict informational description of the video uploaded by IRA and referred to in the article. If we remove that video overview as OR, how are we supposed to provide a balanced description of the IRA criticism? Or should we just remove all the IRA related info?

			With my limited understanding of Vedic principles which form the fundamentals of Hinduism, I was able to make some connections with the claims made by the hermit, but what I observed there did not map to the other aspects of the philosophies. I (and the other visitors with me) did not feel any positive vibrations in the air, which is typically associated with people and places of holy nature. There was no sense of love emanating from the god-man, but he appeared to be anxious and fidgety. A policeman posted there for ensuring safety of the god-man continued unchallenged (by the god-man) for his misbehaviour with and abusive language towards the devotees right in front of the "mataji". There was too much control on movement of devotees and amount of time they were allowed to spend there (even when the number of visitors was very few). But what took the cake was Prahlad Jani aka Mataji joining an argument between us and the policeman for challenging the policeman's abusive behaviour. I have my interpretations of such behaviour of "God", but I will let you decide for yourself.
	I'm restoring the removed info based on the arguments above, as well as per ] -- "The plot summary is an overview of the film's main events". If you're not happy with that info, please do further improve the plot description to be NPOV, instead of blanking the para.

			== Add a picture of him ==
⚫	] (]) 18:30, 15 ~~June~~ ~~2010~~ (UTC)

			Why is there no picture of him on this article? Add one.
	:Is the assertion that "the clips related to the bathing procedures are from 2003 tests" your own personal interpretation of the footage? We should be quoting a ] on this, rather than invoking ]. Similarly, if you feel that Edamaruku's footage deliberately misrepresents the experiment by assuming there was only one camera, that should come from a reliable source. --] (]) 19:35, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

			https://encrypted.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=Prahlad%20Jani
	::Watch that video first. You'll laugh at it. But, to be neutral here, I happen to be fluent in ] and the short few seconds clip of that video related to bathing says in Polish that it is from 2003. Also, the few second long repeatedly shown clips of 'obstruction by devotees' and 'out of field of view' are obviously cut from one and the same camera footage. You can see the same background of the scene. haha. The bulk of the video (over 85% I guess) is ]'s own appearances in news and talk shows. And I really don't understand how IRA got that Polish video back from 2003 now after 2010 tests... -- ] (]) 19:45, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

		⚫	] (]) 01:04, 6 September 2014 (UTC)
	:::Having found the time to watch the video, I now realise I can't understand any of the languages being used in it, so I can't comment on its content. However, if the video shows Edamaruku introducing a blatantly 2003 clip explicitly claiming that it's from 2010, it's not up to individual Misplaced Pages editors to call him out on it. We should just say something like "Edamaruku introduced a clip he described as being from 2010". If a reliable source has pointed out his mistake, then we can quote that; if it hasn't, we can't add anything. --] (]) 18:21, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
			:{{u\|BlueBerryWizard}} Misplaced Pages can only host pictures with copyright permission. This usually means that someone, you perhaps, finds the person, takes their pictures, and donates it to Wikimedia. Photographers own the photos they take and Misplaced Pages cannot steal them. ]] 20:28, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

			== Independent verification ==
	::::I'm fine with that. Though I am of the opinion that video does not provide any of the proofs Edamaruku says about in his critical article, I understand that the instruments currently available in Misplaced Pages do not provide adequate means to neutrally expose that deficiency of the video material. I've done my best. The rest is up to those interested in the case. Thanks! :) -- ] (]) 18:42, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

			I am making no claim about the truth or falseness of Jani's case. However, the article claims "The veracity of Mataji's claims have also never been independently confirmed with all tests being indigenously conducted." This is an ethnocentric, perhaps racist, assertion that undermines the professional integrity and scientific competency of Indian scientists. Independent verification is merely a claim being tested by a disinterested 3rd party, which is what happened in Jani's case. The fact that these scientists are themselves Indian is irrelevant, and, further, there is no evidence that these tests were manipulated or poorly conducted by them. I don't believe there has ever been a case of tests conducted by scientists from a Western nation of claims made by a fellow national dismissed as "indigenously conducted" or the scientific integrity and work of these scientists questioned merely because they and the claimant share a common nationality. However, because these scientists are Indian, or, perhaps more generally, not Western, it is somehow legitimate to question their ability, independence, integrity and work. <small class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 16:10, 24 April 2015 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned IP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
	I agree with users McGeddon and Escape Orbit that the video information is ] and it must be removed. ] <small><sup style="position:relative">]<span style="position:relative;bottom:-2.0ex;left:-5.2ex;*left:-5.5ex">]</span></sup></small> 04:35, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
			:I too was struck by the odd "indigenously conducted" phrase. Since it seems to add nothing to the article, which seems to present the "for" and "against" cases reasonably, I have deleted that sentence. It only seems likely to provoke the (understandable) reaction it has above. -- ] (]) 12:39, 30 May 2020 (UTC)
	:Not only was it ], in that it consisted of uncited, original analysis of a video, it was also sourced from YouTube. YouTube is not a ] as there is no way of ] where the video came from, whether it is accurately attributed and described, or whether it has been tampered with. --<font color="purple">]</font> <sup>]</sup> 07:53, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
	::The unique youtube link has been used by Edamaruku in his article. Please refer there. But generally I don't mind if you remove the info. It's hard to expect a NPOV approach in a society of editors dominated by fanatic rationalism tendencies. That kind of bias should be expected and taken into account, while assessing the articles created by such a society. Thanks. And have fun screwing up the article(s) :) -- ] (]) 09:21, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
	:::By "fanatic rationalism tendencies" I suppose you mean "]". Seriously, if you can find a good source then you can add this. But you cannot add your own personal analysis, no matter how correct or obvious you personally may think it is. If every editor was allowed to add their own take on things then that really would be "screwing up the article".--<font color="purple">]</font> <sup>]</sup> 09:40, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
	::::In my opinion, what is done here by ] <small><sup style="position:relative">]<span style="position:relative;bottom:-2.0ex;left:-5.2ex;*left:-5.5ex">]</span></sup></small> and <font color="purple">]</font> <sup>]</sup> is bending the rules to make the article look the way they like it. General common sense calls for an inclusion of the video overview into the logic of the article, as the video is the main argument used by IRA for trenchant criticism of the case. And the video is obviously (neutrally viewed) full of failures and manipulations. But I do understand that transcribing the video plot leaves a lot of space for personal interpretation and can't be as much NPOV as text references. As video materials become increasingly commonly used in Information exchange and as Misplaced Pages sources too, the rules will probably have to be amended in this regard to take that into account. But for today the situation is not in favor of NPOV exposure of the issue in question through video overview... I'm also sorry if I'm being a bit too biting in some of my comments. I admit I'm a bit too emotional there, that's my own imperfection... -- ] (]) 10:51, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

	== ~~Request~~ ~~for comment~~ ==		== External links modified ==

			Hello fellow Wikipedians,

	Can the following analysis be included in the ] article unsupported by a reliable source?
	<blockquote>The video montage uploaded by IRA and allegedly showing the "loopholes" in the monitoring of the last tests is constructed mostly of the clips from the ]'s own appearances in Indian news channels, with a few repeatedly shown short clips from Jani's CCTV coverage. The clips related to the bathing procedures are from 2003 tests{{or\|date=June 2010}} and are overlaid with ] comments in subtitles<ref name="rationalistinternational1"/>, and those supposedly showing the obstruction by devotees and 'out of camera' episodes are all made by one and the same camera,{{or\|date=June 2010}} while the reports of DIPAS researchers explicitly state that there were several cameras to monitor the on-going event from different angles.<ref>Experts baffled as Mataji's medical reports are normal http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_experts-baffled-as-mataji-s-medical-reports-are-normal_1380169</ref></blockquote> ] <small><sup style="position:relative">]<span style="position:relative;bottom:-2.0ex;left:-5.2ex;*left:-5.5ex">]</span></sup></small> 04:46, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

			I have just modified 3 external links on ]. Please take a moment to review ]. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit ] for additional information. I made the following changes:
			*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20100501001050/http://www.ahmedabadmirror.com/index.aspx?page=article&sectid=3&contentid=201004272010042703191596a47ffb68 to http://www.ahmedabadmirror.com/index.aspx?page=article&sectid=3&contentid=201004272010042703191596a47ffb68
			*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120310215012/http://www.in.com/news/entertainment-news/fullstory-mataji-to-go-under-international-scanner-15445517-e330bd64a855cf806fa9ecff9dd67ea82272f255-rhp.html to http://www.in.com/news/entertainment-news/fullstory-mataji-to-go-under-international-scanner-15445517-e330bd64a855cf806fa9ecff9dd67ea82272f255-rhp.html
			*Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20100701200505/http://itn.co.uk/a91d4f3a764a424d652db8d5d4b8661d.html to http://itn.co.uk/a91d4f3a764a424d652db8d5d4b8661d.html

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	All this is completely insufferable. When looking into something using an "encyclopedia" I expect to be provided with ALL possible relevant sources of information and allowed to draw my own conclusions, particularly in the case of something fringe or with limited research/sources of information. Anything less is deliberately of at the very least unnecessarily biasing the perspective of the reader. This lowers the quality of your publication to the base mental fishing techniques common advertisements.

			{{sourcecheck\|checked=false\|needhelp=}}
	This is my opinion and I believe it to be of well founded logic.

			Cheers.—] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">(])</span> 14:08, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
⚫	~~Thank~~ ~~you,~~ ~~Alex.~~ <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">~~—Preceding~~ ] comment added by ] (]) 07:12, 4 ~~August~~ ~~2010~~ (UTC)</span><!-- Template:~~UnsignedIP~~ --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

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Cleaning

This page needs info cleaning — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.130.149.162 (talk) 11:47, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

God, God-man or Media propelled blind faith?

I specifically visited Chunriwali Mataji during my recent trip to India and I must add, with a lot of reverence due to my religious upbringing. Unfortunately, what I saw there was sheer blind faith on display. The media appears to have helped the hermit's claims, which I do not deny may be an ability that the hermit possesses through the ancient sciences of Yoga. It appears to be fairly common in India to interpret such "yogic ability" as an incarnation of God and it does not come as a surprise due to the level of blind faith, coupled with poor education and absence of scientific questioning and most importantly the "fear of god".

With my limited understanding of Vedic principles which form the fundamentals of Hinduism, I was able to make some connections with the claims made by the hermit, but what I observed there did not map to the other aspects of the philosophies. I (and the other visitors with me) did not feel any positive vibrations in the air, which is typically associated with people and places of holy nature. There was no sense of love emanating from the god-man, but he appeared to be anxious and fidgety. A policeman posted there for ensuring safety of the god-man continued unchallenged (by the god-man) for his misbehaviour with and abusive language towards the devotees right in front of the "mataji". There was too much control on movement of devotees and amount of time they were allowed to spend there (even when the number of visitors was very few). But what took the cake was Prahlad Jani aka Mataji joining an argument between us and the policeman for challenging the policeman's abusive behaviour. I have my interpretations of such behaviour of "God", but I will let you decide for yourself.

Add a picture of him

Why is there no picture of him on this article? Add one.

https://encrypted.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=Prahlad%20Jani

BlueBerryWizard (talk) 01:04, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

BlueBerryWizard Misplaced Pages can only host pictures with copyright permission. This usually means that someone, you perhaps, finds the person, takes their pictures, and donates it to Wikimedia. Photographers own the photos they take and Misplaced Pages cannot steal them. Blue Rasberry (talk) 20:28, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Independent verification

I am making no claim about the truth or falseness of Jani's case. However, the article claims "The veracity of Mataji's claims have also never been independently confirmed with all tests being indigenously conducted." This is an ethnocentric, perhaps racist, assertion that undermines the professional integrity and scientific competency of Indian scientists. Independent verification is merely a claim being tested by a disinterested 3rd party, which is what happened in Jani's case. The fact that these scientists are themselves Indian is irrelevant, and, further, there is no evidence that these tests were manipulated or poorly conducted by them. I don't believe there has ever been a case of tests conducted by scientists from a Western nation of claims made by a fellow national dismissed as "indigenously conducted" or the scientific integrity and work of these scientists questioned merely because they and the claimant share a common nationality. However, because these scientists are Indian, or, perhaps more generally, not Western, it is somehow legitimate to question their ability, independence, integrity and work. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.216.153.148 (talk) 16:10, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

I too was struck by the odd "indigenously conducted" phrase. Since it seems to add nothing to the article, which seems to present the "for" and "against" cases reasonably, I have deleted that sentence. It only seems likely to provoke the (understandable) reaction it has above. -- PaulBetteridge (talk) 12:39, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

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