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|text = '''Welcome to the WikiProject Poland discussion!''' |text = '''Welcome to the WikiProject Poland discussion!''' {{shortcut|WT:WPPL|WT:POLAND}}
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== Useful shortcuts ==
*]

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* ]
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== Useful templates ==
*]

*]
Please note we have two functioning userboxes:
*]
{| style="background-color: {{{color|#f9fcff}}};"
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{{User WikiProject Poland}} Substitute: {{tl|User WikiProject Poland}}
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{{User WPMILHIST Polish military history task force}} Substitute: {{tl|User WPMILHIST Polish military history task force}}
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There is also a ] message box that can be used to notify new users about this noticeboard and our related projects. Just slap '''<nowiki>{{subst:Portal:Poland/Welcome}}--~~~~</nowiki>''' on their usertalkpage - it has its own heading.
|}
<!-- End of Portal talk heading -->

== Piotrus' to do list #1 ==

So ]. Thanks to all who helped with that, and thanks to all who kept this project alive in the meantime. Over the next days I will be suggesting a bunch of edits here, for your consideration. Please strike them out if you carry them; or let me know if you think they are unnecessary/unhelpful. --<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 06:13, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

{{cot}}
{{cot|Task 1}}
Task 1: rescue useful images listed at the bottom of ] (] and below) and ] (] and below) by finding sources. A simple way of doing this is to use ] search, try to find a source, and then replace the no source template in the image with the link to the source. Please let me know who is willing to do take care of that. --<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 06:13, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

:Welcome back if in a limited way. I google Roman Sanguszko but with no luck. I found Kazimierz Poniatowski here ] (]) 15:43, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
{{cob}}

{{cot|Task 2}}
Task 2: ~weekly analysis of ] (batch: ] started at 23:35, 28 April 2010 - ] started at 07:09, 5 May 2010)
* <s>] - main article: <nowiki>{{Poland-sport-bio-stub}}</nowiki>, talk: assess as stub and low importance for our project, add <nowiki>{{WPBiography|class=stub|importance=low||living=yes}}</nowiki></s> - '''DONE''' ] (]) 15:56, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
* <s>] - multiple issues require tagging: <nowiki>{{unreferenced}}, {{uncategorized}}, {{External links}} and {{Advert}}</nowiki></s> - '''DONE''' ] (]) 15:56, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
* <s>] - main: <nowiki>{{Masovian-geo-stub}}, talk: {{WikiProject Poland|class=stub|importance=low}} </nowiki></s> - '''DONE''' ] (]) 15:56, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
* ] - please inform him that ] needs references and if they are added it could be eligible for front page display if he nominates it at ]
* <s>] - main: either <nowiki>{{Poland-school-stub}} OR {{Euro-university-stub}} and {{Poland-stub}}, talk: {{WikiProject Poland|class=stub|importance=low}} and {{WikiProject Universities|class=start|importance=low}}</nowiki></s>
** <s>spin-off: add the same project tags to ] but I think medium importance is justified</s>
* <s>] - ueeeh, please consider moving to , and linking from ], main: <nowiki>], ] {{Poland-battle-stub}}{{Russia-battle-stub}}; talk: {{WP:MILHIST}}</nowiki></s>
* <s>] - talk: <nowiki>{{WikiProject Poland|class=stub|importance=low}} </nowiki></s>
* <s>] - talk: <nowiki>{{WikiProject Belarus|class=start|importance=low}}, I'll leave whether to add Poland and Lithuanian projects to you.</nowiki> '''Please consider nominating it at ] with the following string''':<nowiki> {{subst:NewDYKnom | article=Belarusian nobility | hook=... that ''']''' was closely related to the ] and ]? | status=new | author=Czalex | nominator=Piotrus}} </nowiki></s>
* <s>] - main article: <nowiki>{{Poland-sport-bio-stub}}, talk: assess as stub and low importance for our project, +{{WPBiography|class=stub|importance=low||living=yes}}</nowiki></s>
* <s>] - main article: <nowiki>{{Poland-bio-stub}}</nowiki></s>
* <s>] and ] - main article: <nowiki>{{Poland-stub}} and {{sport-stub}}, talk: {{WikiProject Poland|class=stub|importance=low}} and {{Motorcycling|class=stub|importance=low}} </nowiki></s>
** <s>] and ] - just the talk templates, assess as start</s>
*** Sports events tire me, but if anybody cares, there is a bunch at ] for very similar tagging and assessing
* <s>], ], ], ], ], ] - main: <nowiki>{{Poland-footy-bio-stub}}, talk: assess as stub and low importance for our project ({{WikiProject Poland|class=stub|importance=low}), add <nowiki>{{WPBiography|class=stub|importance=low||living=yes}}</nowiki>, please ask the author (]) of all of those to stub and assess them himself to save us work</s>
* <s>] - main: <nowiki>{{Poland-actor-stub}}, talk: assess as stub and low importance for our project ({{WikiProject Poland|class=stub|importance=low}), add <nowiki>{{WPBiography|class=stub|importance=low||living=yes}}</nowiki></s>
* <s>] - main: <nowiki>{{Poland-stub}} {{Coin-stub}}, talk: {{Numismaticnotice|class=stub|importance=mid}} {{WikiProject Poland|class=stub|importance=low}}</nowiki></s>
** <s>spin-off: ] - consider changing our project assessment to mid (from top...), ], ], ], ], ], ], ] and ] - <nowiki>{{WikiProject Poland|class=C|importance=low})</nowiki>, and ] - <nowiki>{{Numismaticnotice|class=B|importance=mid}} {{WikiProject Poland|class=C|importance=low}}</nowiki></s>
* <s>] - main: <nowiki>{{Poland-geo-stub}}, talk: assess as stub of low importance for our project, + {{River|class=stub|importance=low}}</nowiki></s>
* <s>] - main: <nowiki>{{Poland-noble-stub}}</nowiki>, talk: <nowiki>{WikiProject Poland|class=stub|importance=low}} {{WPBiography|class=stub|importance=low||living=no}}</nowiki>, please consider asking the creator (]) for expansion and references, and suggest him that it would make a good ] addition if expanded/referenced</s>
* <s>] - main article: <nowiki>{{Poland-sport-bio-stub}}</nowiki>, talk: assess as stub and low importance for our project, and as stub for other projects</nowiki></s>
* <s>I don't think that ] should be tagged by our project, but second opinion welcome. <nowiki>{{WikiProject Germany}}</nowiki> seems more appropriate. Could be eligible for T:TDYK, if anybody cares enough (feel free to suggest this to the author - ]).</s>
* Uff, that's it for now, I'll see if I have time and will to look through archives - I very much doubt I will be able to cover the 4 months that should have been covered anytime soon, just keeping with the current new articles is tasking - spend ~1h on the above :( PS. Please strike out the suggestions above when done; feel free to start a discussion if you disagree with them. --<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 17:40, 6 May 2010 (UTC)
{{cob}}

{{cot|Task 3}}
Task 3: varia
* <s>please remove the signature breaking assessment template at ]</s>
** <s>too much was removed, please replace it with <nowiki>{{WikiProject Poland|class=C|importance=mid}}</nowiki></s>

So... who is taking care of this? Don't be shy, post here. --<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 14:27, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
{{cob}}

{{cot|Task 4}}
Task 4: ~weekly analysis of ] (batch: ] started at 11:57, 5 May 2010 - ] started at 20:47, 6 May 2010)
* <s>] - multiple copyedit issues, appropriate tags: <nowiki>{{notability}}, {{unreferenced}}, {{uncategorized}}, {{external links}} and {{Context}}</nowiki></s>
** <s>please also add those tags to ], minus unreferenced tag</s>
* <s>] - main article: <nowiki>{{Poland-boxing-bio-stub}}</nowiki>, talk: assess as stub and low importance for our project, add <nowiki>{{WPBiography|class=stub|importance=low||living=yes}}</nowiki></s>
* <s>] - rate as stub for our project on talk</s>
* <s>] - add <nowiki>] (if the bot hasn't), talk: tag with {{MILHIST}}. It is a borderline stub, consider adding {{Poland-mil-stub}} and {{RC-stub}}</nowiki></s>
* <s>] - main article, appropriate tags: <nowiki>{{unreferenced}}, {{uncategorized}}, talk: {{WikiProject Poland|class=start|importance=low}}, {{WikiProject Beauty Pageants|class=start|importance=}}</nowiki></s>
* <s>please welcome and invite to the project the following user(s): ]</s>
--<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 17:35, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
{{cob}}

{{cot|Task 5}}
Task 5: ~weekly analysis of ] (batch: ] started at 11:31, 7 May 2010 to ] started at 03:10, 11 May 2010)
* <s>] (main: <nowiki>{{Poland-stub}}, {{Mexico-stub}}, talk: {{WikiProject Poland|class=stub|importance=low}) {{WikiProject Mexico|class=stub|importance=low}}</nowiki>)</s>
* <s>] - '''please consider ]ing it with''' <nowiki>{{subst:NewDYKnom | article=Józef Kowalczyk | hook=... that the latest ], ''']''' received a diploma of archivist of the ]? | status=new | author=Kpalion | nominator=Piotrus}}</nowiki></s>
* <s>] - main: <nowiki>{{notability}}, {{uncategorized}}, {{unreferenced}}</nowiki></s>
{{cob}}

{{cot|Comment}}
Comment: so... am I just creating a list of tasks for my self to do in x amount of time? Also, T:TDYK nominations are on timer, so if nobody is moving them, there is no point for me to come up with hooks here :( PS. Jniech - thanks for helping, I know you don't have much time, what you did is appreciated. --<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 02:21, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

:I'm sorry I haven't been keeping up with your suggestions, Piotrus, especially the DYK nominations. I'm afraid they're past the 5-day limit now. I'll stay on top of them in the future. —&nbsp;]&nbsp;<sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub> 18:16, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
::It has been my experience that DYK reviewrs are often lenient with the 5-day deadline. I'd suggest using the DYKs, just add a note for the DYK reviewer that they may be a bit older than usual - and let them decide if they are worth using. Thanks for the help, --<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 18:41, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

:::{{Done}}. —&nbsp;]&nbsp;<sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub> 18:57, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

:::::Excellent. As you know, reward for a job well done is... :) Expect more stuff around Sunday! --<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 05:56, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
{{cob}}

{{cot|Task 6}}
Those are some of the gnomish edits I noticed need to be made as far back as in January. As always, those are suggestions, use your best judgment and start a discussion if you have any questions/comments. --<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 16:11, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

# <s>] - Update the following sentence with correct dates and requested reference: <nowiki>There were also later, smaller Mongol invasions of Poland (1259-1260 and 1287-1288).<ref>{{pl icon}} Jacek Kawecki, </ref></nowiki></s>
# <s>] - <nowiki>], ], ]</nowiki></s>
# <s>] - <nowiki>], ], ], ]</nowiki></s>
# <s>] - add <nowiki>{{commonscat|Liuboml}}</nowiki></s>
# <s>] - disambig - link ] as this the person noted in the second disambig choice ("Blessed Rycheza or Ryksa (around 1063), Queen of Poland, wife of King Mieszko II (1025-1031).")</s>
# <s>] - reassess as start, add ]</s>
# <s>] - restore <nowiki>]]]</nowiki> (OTRS permission received, see image's page)</s>
# <s>] - create redirect: <nowiki>#REDIRECT ]</nowiki></s>
# <s>] - add <nowiki>]</nowiki></s>
# <s>create redirects: ] and ] to <nowiki>#REDIRECT ]</nowiki></s>
# <s>add <nowiki>]</nowiki> to ]</s>
# <s>add <nowiki>]</nowiki> to ]</s>
# <s>redirect ] <nowiki>#REDIRECT ]</nowiki></s>
# <s>add interwikis: ] (Bitwa o Anconę); Arbeitslager (Arbeitslager), ] (John Ward), ] (Ordynariat Polowy Wojska Polskiego), ] (2 Dywizja Strzelców Pieszych),</s>
# <s>assess: ] (talk: <nowiki>{WikiProject Poland|class=start|importance=low}} {{WPReligion|class=start|importance=low}}</nowiki></s>
# <s>] (main: <nowiki>{{wikify}} {{globalize}} talk: {{WikiProject Germany|class=start|importance=low}} {{WikiProject Law|class=start|importance=low}}</nowiki> )</s>

Minor update. --<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 07:49, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
# <s>] - reassess to start</s>
# <s>] - assess as start</s>
# <s>] - reassess as start</s>
{{cob}}

{{cot|Task 7}}
New batch. --<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 19:20, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

Weekly analysis of ] (batch: ] started at 03:10, 11 May 2010 to ] started at 17:49, 17 May 2010)
# <s>] - main: <nowiki>{{Poland-stub}} ; talk: {{Visual arts|class=stub}} {{WikiProject Poland|class=Stub|importance=Low}}</nowiki></s>
:# <s>Also add <nowiki>{{Poland-stub}}</nowiki> to ]</s>
# <s>] - main: <nowiki>{{notability}} {{Cleanup-link rot}} {{unreferenced}} and {{Poland-stub}}. Talk: {{WikiProject Poland|class=Stub|importance=Low}}</nowiki></s>
# <s>] - Talk: <nowiki>{{WPBIO|class=Stub|living=no}} {{WikiProject Poland|class=Stub|importance=Low}}</nowiki></s>
# <s>] - main: <nowiki>{{notability}} and {{Poland-artist-stub}}. Talk: assess as stub</nowiki></s>
# <s>] - '''please consider nominating at T:TDYK with''' <nowiki>{{subst:NewDYKnom | article=King Matt the First | hook=... that the 1923 ] ''']''' is as popular in Poland as ] is in the English-speaking world? | status=new | author=Nbarth| nominator=Piotrus}}</nowiki></s>
# ] - please inform the author (]) that only a minor expansion is needed for T:TDYKing
# <s>] - main: <nowiki>{{Poland-stub}}, {{Company-stub}}, {{notability}}</nowiki></s>
# <s>] - main: <nowiki>{{Poland-stub}}</nowiki></s>
# <s>] - talk: <nowiki>{{WPBIO|class=Stub|living=no}} {{WikiProject Poland|class=Stub|importance=Low}}</nowiki></s>
# <s>] - move to ]. Main: <nowiki>{{Poland-bio-stub}}</nowiki> , talk: <nowiki>{{WPBIO|class=Stub|living=yes}} {{WikiProject Poland|class=Stub|importance=Low}}</nowiki></s>
# <s>Please replace instances of use of ] with ].</s>
# <s>Please speedy delete ] - a better version is already on Commons under the same name: ]</s>
# Please speedy delete ] - a better image is already on Commons under the same name: ]

:*With respect to the DYK's, it has been 7 days since the articles were created. Last week, the "overdue" DYK I submitted was rejected. Do you think I should try again anyway?
:*I don't think ] can be deleted until May 26. —&nbsp;]&nbsp;<sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub> 22:48, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
::* DYK - is exactly on the 7 day deadline, so I say yes, go for it.
::Regarding the file, we can wait - but I don't think anybody but me has ever provided a source for Emax/Witkacy's images so... --<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 22:53, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
:::The DYK deadline is 5 days, not 7, but I submitted it anyway. {{=)}} —&nbsp;]&nbsp;<sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub> 23:00, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
::::Ha, I always thought it was around 7. Anyway, as DYK does have a backlog (now, roughly 20 days) I tend to see adding things to the backlog as fine. That said, I may be wrong - I will raise this on DYK talk in the near future. --<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 23:18, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
{{cob}}

{{cot|Task 8}}
New batch, trying to keep them semi-weekly so they are not overwhelming (ha, you should try doing it every two weeks :D). --<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 17:30, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

Weekly analysis of ] (batch: ] started at 20:06, 17 May 2010 to ] started at 18:09, 19 May 2010)
# <s>] - Talk: <nowiki>{{WPBIO|class=Start|living=yes}} {{WikiProject Poland|class=Start|importance=Low}}</nowiki></s>
# <s>all articles created by Starzynka need a WikiProject Poland project tag (stub) on their talk; here's a list:</s>
*<s>{{la|Leonard Andrzejewski}} by {{User|Starzynka}} started at 21:58, 17 May 2010</s>
*<s>{{la|Ballada o Januszku}} by {{User|Starzynka}} started at 21:53, 17 May 2010</s>
*<s>{{la|Grażyna Strachota}} by {{User|Starzynka}} started at 21:43, 17 May 2010</s>
*<s>{{la|Agnieszka Kotulanka}} by {{User|Starzynka}} started at 21:42, 17 May 2010</s>
*<s>{{la|Anna Gornostaj}} by {{User|Starzynka}} started at 21:40, 17 May 2010</s>
*<s>{{la|Robert Gonera}} by {{User|Starzynka}} started at 21:38, 17 May 2010</s>
*<s>{{la|Piotr Gąsowski}} by {{User|Starzynka}} started at 21:37, 17 May 2010</s>
*<s>{{la|Artur Barciś}} by {{User|Starzynka}} started at 21:36, 17 May 2010</s>
*<s>{{la|Paweł Wawrzecki}} by {{User|Starzynka}} started at 21:34, 17 May 2010</s>
*<s>{{la|Tomasz Sapryk}} by {{User|Starzynka}} started at 21:33, 17 May 2010</s>
*<s>{{la|Sebastian Konrad}} by {{User|Starzynka}} started at 21:32, 17 May 2010</s>
*<s>{{la|Jerzy Bończak}} by {{User|Starzynka}} started at 21:31, 17 May 2010</s>
*<s>{{la|Aby do świtu...}} by {{User|Starzynka}} started at 21:27, 17 May 2010</s>
*<s>{{la|Marzena}} by {{User|Hebrides}} started at 21:24, 17 May 2010</s>
*<s>{{la|Małgorzata Socha}} by {{User|Starzynka}} started at 21:17, 17 May 2010</s>
*<s>{{la|Magdalena Różczka}} by {{User|Starzynka}} started at 21:16, 17 May 2010</s>
*<s>{{la|Patrycja Durska}} by {{User|Starzynka}} started at 21:15, 17 May 2010</s>
*<s>{{la|Anna Antonowicz}} by {{User|Starzynka}} started at 21:14, 17 May 2010</s>
*<s>{{la|Katarzyna Skrzynecka}} by {{User|Starzynka}} started at 21:13, 17 May 2010</s>
*<s>{{la|Piotr Polk}} by {{User|Starzynka}} started at 21:12, 17 May 2010</s>
*<s>{{la|Tomasz Karolak}} by {{User|Starzynka}} started at 21:11, 17 May 2010</s>
*<s>{{la|Marian Glinka}} by {{User|Starzynka}} started at 21:09, 17 May 2010</s>
*<s>{{la|Tadeusz Chudecki}} by {{User|Starzynka}} started at 21:08, 17 May 2010</s>
*<s>{{la|Mirosław Baka}} by {{User|Starzynka}} started at 21:07, 17 May 2010</s>
*<s>{{la|Wiktor Zborowski}} by {{User|Starzynka}} started at 21:04, 17 May 2010</s>
*<s>{{la|Bao-Bab, czyli zielono mi}} by {{User|Starzynka}} started at 20:58, 17 May 2010</s>
# <s>] - as above, +<nowiki>{{Poland-academic-bio-stub}}</nowiki></s>
# <s>] - <nowiki>{{nofootnotes}}</nowiki></s>, please inform the creator (]) that if he were to add inline references, his article would classify for T:TDYK
# <s>] - talk: Poland and <nowiki>{{Football|class=stub|importance=mid}}</nowiki> WikiProject tags</s>
# <s>] - main: <nowiki>{{wikify}}, talk: {{WikiProject Poland|class=start|importance=mid}} {{WikiProject Law|class=Start|importance=low}}</nowiki></s>
#: <s>Also, assess ] for WPLAW project as mid</s>
#: I hesitate to nominate this for DYK because of the glaring error in the first body paragraph. ] does indeed have a provision that protects the freedom of speech - Art. 54 ("The freedom to express opinions, to acquire and to disseminate information shall be ensured to everyone." and "Preventive censorship of the means of social communication and the licensing of the press shall be prohibited.", see ). This should be corrected in the article before it can be DYKed.
# <s>] - restore hoax template, see AfD</s> - deleted, all's fine now
# <s>] - main: <nowiki>], ], ]</nowiki>talk: Poland project bio, start, also WP:BIO|class=start|living=yes</s>
# <s>] - correct bolden name in lead; correct instances of Glinski to Gliński in text, add <nowiki>{{Refimprove}}</nowiki></s>
# <s>] - please invite to our project</s>
{{cob}}

{{cot|Task 9}}
Weekly analysis of ] (batch: ] started at 20:29, 19 May 2010 to ] started at 02:57, 23 May 2010)

#<s>] - <nowiki>{{WikiProject Poland|class=Start|importance=Low}}</nowiki></s>
#:<s>], ] and ] - assess as start</s>
#:<s>] - reassess as start, more than just a list</s>
#<s>] - <nowiki>main: add ], {{Poland-bio-stub}}, ], ]. Talk: {{WPBIO|class=Stub|living=no}} {{WikiProject Poland|class=Stub|importance=Low}}</nowiki></s>
#<s>] - <nowiki>Talk: {{WPBIO|class=Start|living=yes}} {{WikiProject Poland|class=Stub|importance=Low}}.</nowiki> '''T:TDYK''': <nowiki>{subst:NewDYKnom | article=Dorota Nieznalska | hook=... that works of the Polish artist ''']''' stirred a religious controversy and charges of ] in Poland? | status=new | author=Zloyvolsheb | nominator=Piotrus}}</nowiki></s>
#<s>] - '''T:TDYK''': <nowiki>{subst:NewDYKnom | article=Mariusz Adamski | hook=... that Polish aerial photographer ''']''' is known for shooting aircraft from unusual perspectives? | status=new | author=Starzynka |author2=Morenooso | nominator=Piotrus}}</nowiki></s>

Small batch, this time, but two DYKs on a timer! --<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 18:56, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
{{cob}}

{{cot|Task 10}}
Weekly analysis of ] (batch: ] started at 13:13, 23 May 2010 to ] started at 05:50, 25 May 2010

# <s>] - Talk: <nowiki>{{WPBIO|class=Stub|living=no}}</nowiki></s>
# <s>] - Talk: add MILHIST template</s>
# <s>] - please update all project assessments to B, per MILHIST assessment</s>
# <s>] - same</s>
# <s>] - add <nowiki>{{uncategoprized}}, {{unreferenced}} and {{wikify}}</nowiki></s>
# <s>] - add <nowiki>] ], {{refimprove}}. Talk: Poland wikiproject tag, assess as start</nowiki></s>
# <s>] - <nowiki>add {{uncategorized}}, {{notability}} (shouldn't this be just merged with the book?), also, {{bio-stub}}</nowiki></s>
# <s>] - as above + <nowiki>{{unreferenced}} and the stub is {{nonfiction-book-stub}}</nowiki></s>
# <s>] - consider moving to ] or proposing such a move on talk</s>
# <s>] - main: <nowiki>], talk: Poland and basketball wikiproject tags, stub</nowiki></s>
# <s>] - please move to ]; add the iwiki link to pl wiki <nowiki>], add a photo from pl wiki, talk: WP Poland and BIO projects (living=no)</nowiki></s>

Another small batch. --<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 17:10, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
{{cob}}
{{cob}}

{{cot|Task 11}}
Very minor:
* <s>] - add <nowiki>{{commonscat|Maps of the Kingdom of Poland (Piasts)}}</nowiki></s>
* <s>] - add <nowiki>{{commonscat|Maps of the Kingdom of Poland (Jagiellons)}}</nowiki></s>
--<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 19:11, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Main: weekly analysis of ] (batch: ] started at 10:46, 25 May 2010 to ] started at 01:59, 29 May 2010
# <s>] - fix stub (split)</s>
# <s>] and ] - add WP:POLAND stub project tag</s>
# <s>] - <nowiki>{{notability}} {{uncategorized}}</nowiki> - also note ongoing AFD</s>
# <s>] - <nowiki>{{Poland-politician-stub}}, {{uncategorized}}, talk: POLAND and BIO wikiprojcts</nowiki></s>
# <s>] - <nowiki>{{wikify}} {{uncategorized}}; talk: as above, also {{WikiProject Pennsylvania|class=start|importance=low}}</nowiki></s>
# <s>] - tag as stub</s>
# <s>] - Poland-noble-stub, talk: POLAND and BLP living=no tags</s>
# <s>] - add <nowiki>], stub, tak page - poland and bio living tags</nowiki></s>
# <s>] - poland and bio (living=no) talk page projects</s>
--<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 21:25, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

Another minor update:
* <s>] -> <nowiki>{{subst:ncd|Image:Battle of Grunwald map 1 English.jpg}}</nowiki></s>
* <s>] -> <nowiki>{{subst:ncd|Image:Battle of Grunwald map 2 English.jpg}}</nowiki></s>
* <s>] -> <nowiki>{{subst:ncd|Image:Battle of Grunwald map 3 English.jpg}}</nowiki></s>
* <s>] -> <nowiki>{{subst:ncd|Image:Battle of Grunwald map 4 English.jpg}}</nowiki></s>
--<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 20:58, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

* <s> - please rvv.</s> --<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 03:51, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
{{cob}}

===Task 12===
Main: weekly analysis of ] (batch: ] started at started at 12:42, 29 May 2010 to ] started at 10:17, 4 June 2010
# <s>] and ] - <nowiki>{{Poland-noble-stub}}, talk: {{WikiProject Poland|class=stub|importance=low}}, WP:BIO |living=no</nowiki></s>
# <s>], ] and ] - <nowiki>{{Poland-bio-stub}} (as I cannot confirm they were nobles), talk as above</nowiki></s>
# <s>] - talk: WPPOLAND project, stub, low importance, add |living=yes</s>
# <s>Gdanskie Wydawnictwo Oswiatowe - move to ], and pl interwiki (<nowiki>]), {{unreferenced}}, ] and ], talk: WP:POLAND, start, low importance</nowiki></s>
# <s>] - <nowiki>add pl iwiki ], {{wikify}}, ], ], ] talk: WP:POLAND (start, low importance) and {{WikiProject Universities|class=Start}}</nowiki></s>
# <s>] <nowiki>{{Poland-stub}}, talk: WP:POLAND (low, stub) and {{WikiProject Languages|class=stub}}</nowiki></s>
#: <s>Also assess ] as <nowiki>{{WikiProject Languages|class=stub}}</nowiki></s>
# <s>] - <nowiki>], ], ], ], talk: WP:POLAND and BIO (living=no) tags, start/low</nowiki></s>
# <s>] - <nowiki>{{Poland-bio-stub}}, {{chemist-stub}}, talk: Poland, BIO projects, |living=yes</nowiki></s>
# <s>] - <nowiki>add iwiki to ], Poland-artist-stub, talk: POLAND and bio living=no</nowiki></s>
# <s>] <nowiki>iwiki to ], {{Poland-mil-bio-stub}}, ], ], ], ], talk: {{WPMILHIST}}</nowiki></s>
# <s>] - move to ]. <nowiki>Categories: ], ], ] </nowiki></s>
#: Note: ] doesn't exist, but probably should be created; consider doing so and populating the category
#:: Created the category. I'll try to figure out what belongs in it, but I would appreciate suggestions.
# <s>] - <nowiki>iwiki ], ], ], ],{{Inappropriate tone}}. talk: Poland and bio (living=no), start, low. </nowiki></s>
#: '''This article is could be rewritten to DYK with a little effort (tone, needs few more refs for a good hook).'''
#:: Unfortunately, a large portion of the article was copied and pasted from another website.

General note: I am no longer looking at article about sportsmen, I consider the flood of footballer and like articles to be close to spam.

Also, a naming discussion may be appropriate to start at ] (his Polish name is much more popular than the latinized one: vs . --<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 19:36, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

:I discussed it briefly with the article's creator. See and (and ). —&nbsp;]&nbsp;<sup>]</sup>/<sub>]</sub> 02:49, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
::I am not sure what the confusion is. Our ] is ]. --<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 03:58, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

== ], ] ==

The "]" lead has, until recently, described the composer as Polish, of expatriate-French paternity. For some weeks, several editors, including two non-Polish ones who use Polish-appearing names, have been advocating the view that Chopin was French by birth, since, under the '']'', his Polish-resident French-born father never lost his French citizenship and, indeed, automatically imparted it to his Polish wife upon their marriage. The sole source given for this argument is an online article (http://diaph16.free.fr/chopin//home.htm) by Emmanuel Langavant, ''agrégé de droit public, professeur à la faculté de droit de l'université de Lille II''. In reliance on this authority, the misleading and unorthographic expression, "''Polish born'' composer and virtuoso pianist of Polish-French descent" has been introduced into the article's lead. I have reverted it, but the controversy continues. Interested editors are invited to the article and to ]. ] (]) 05:37, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
:I find the phrase "a Polish composer and virtuoso pianist of French-Polish parentage and citizenship" pretty helpful, although something about him residing in France for a big chunk of his life may be helpful as well. I'd suggest saying "parentage, citizenship and residentship." --<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 17:14, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
::I suspect the citizenship bit is clear original research (does it even make sense to talk about Polish citizenship back then?)--] (]) 17:54, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
:::I agree that saying he had Polish citizenship is a bit of a stretch. We do know that he had French citizenship (because we have a copy of his French passport) but to write of "French-Polish parentage and French citizenship" would only spark an edit war. ] (]) 18:56, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
::::Really? Well, how about differentiating between French citizenship and Polish nationality? --<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 19:09, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
::::The fact that "we have his passport" is still not enough for me to want to include reference to his French citizenship in the lead. Firstly because we don't know that passport implies citizenship (even today I"m not sure that it ''always'' does, and back then when the concept of citizenship was in its infancy even in France, I don't know of any basis for assuming it), and secondly because even if it is true, the sources mention it so rarely - if at all - that it would be giving the matter very undue weight to include it in our first paragraph.--] (]) 06:04, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
:::::Well put. ] (]) 09:46, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
:::::So your position is that merely having a French passport (which clearly states that Chopin was born to French parents) isn't good enough for you to accept that Chopin had French citizenship? Well, I suppose that that is your right but there are a number of ] which disagree with you (and at least one which goes on to point out that Chopin had been born French). Can you provide an RS which says that although Chopin had a number of French passports, he was not a French citizen? ] (]) 16:58, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
::::::Questions: 1) we are discussing lead, not the body, right? Nobody is challenging the paragraph in ], yes? 2) Is there anybody who would like to see the inclusion of citizenship in the lead? If so, what is the rationale for this being important enough to merit lead inclusion (if only Szulc is discussing it, it doesn't seem that crucial to mention in the short lead summary). That said Szulc does seem to imply that passport = citizenship (again, is this a contention common or exceptional as far as early 19th century goes?).
::::::Comments: After rereading the lead, I see that the sentence goes "Polish composer and virtuoso pianist of French-Polish parentage", as such I don't think that we need to clarify he was of Polish nationality (as I suggested before). Also, the second para describes he moved from (partitioned) Poland to France, so my suggestion about adding a note on French-Polish residentship is less needed as well, but I still put it out for your consideration. Lastly, on the passport/citizenship issue, I think that if we decide to include that in the lead, we should also clarify the following issues: did he have a Duchy of Warsaw passport/citizenship (his place of birth) and that he obtained a Russian passport later (as a result of Duchy ceasing to exist and ] - a n important link currently not present in the lead). PS. Once the lead becomes stable, I think it would be a good idea to nominate this article for ].--<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 17:47, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
:::::::Actually, I think the article may not be very far from ] quality; but personally I wouldn't like to be involved in any ]ization process, if it may involve the sort of outlandish discourse that we have been experiencing over Chopin's citizenships, passports and nationality. ] (]) 12:58, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
::::::::Yes, with some cleanup (it's a little choppy and not completely referenced) it could probably get thru GA. FAs get more eyes; someone might want to see a more detached version of the nationalism issue, reflecting for example ]'s 'Who is to say?' in ] . Or quibble with 'he was the first composer to take a national genre of music from his home country and transform it into a genre worthy of the general concert-going public' when other sources include him in a list: ], ], Beethoven, ], ],..., . ] (]) 17:54, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
:The intense argument there over the lead sentences - centering on whether he should be described as Polish or Polish-French - doesn't rely solely on the Code Napoleon argument - it also concerns his father's ethnicity, generally described as French, and on ] saying that F. Chopin obtained a French passport in 1835. (Another source gives an earlier date). A Gbook link to Szulc's he-became-a-French-citizen-in-1835 was at some point refd with a Google book link that has gone away there - so see it here . ] (]) 21:24, 20 May 2010 (UTC) Clarify that the biographer uses the phrase 'became a French citizen'. ] (]) 21:05, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
::::I am perplexed at the fact that the only accepted source is that of Tad Szulc who wrote that Chopin "became a French citizen", which, according to the Code Napoléon under which Chopin was born, is obviously incorrect. But Tad Szulc wrote it in a book, so that has to be correct!
::::On Chopin's talk page, I have given the name of several famous people in the same case as Chopin, and with their double nationality given together in the first sentence of the lead.
::::I also find it interesting that there is no problem in this instance:
::::*], born two months after Chopin, also in the Duchy of Warsaw, the illegitimate son of Napoléon & Maria Walewska: ''"Alexandre Florian Joseph, Duke Colonna-Walewski (4 May 1810 – 27 October 1868) was a <u>Polish and French<u> politician and diplomat. He was the son of Napoleon I and his mistress Marie, Countess Walewski."'' The Code Napoléon did not apply to him because he was recognised by his mother's husband, but he did become a French citizen after emigrating to France.
::::The list of Poles who have had another nationality because of a French or other national father is long. Their national duality, either from birth or obtained by choice later in life, is always recognised, except in the case of Frédéric Chopin.
::::*]: was a Polish-American pianist. (Misplaced Pages)
::::Someone please explain to me why the special handling of Chopin, which I could understand on Polish wiki.
::::--] (]) 23:12, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
::Thank you for finding the GBook link, I think it should be restored to the article. --<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 17:39, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

::The following is a link to the translation in English of the 1804 ''Code Napoléon''.

::*http://www.napoleon-series.org/research/government/c_code.html

::TITLE I. OF THE ENJOYMENT AND PRIVATION OF CIVIL RIGHTS

::CHAPTER I. Of the enjoyment of civil rights, please click on TITLE I, Chapter I which is on French nationality of a child being born outside of France of a Frenchman.

::I fail to see how referring to the 1804 ''Code Napoléon'', the translation of which is given at the above, and which is on the site of France's ''Assemblée nationale'' & the ''Bibliothéque nationale de France'', can be said to be OR. Professeur Emmanuel Langavant does nothing but explain & confirm the terms of the Code, which was in effect in the Duchy of Warsaw at the time of the birth of Chopin.

::When in 1829 Chopin went to Austria & Germany, he travelled on a Russian passport. In 1831, while in Vienna, he tried to get a visa to go to Paris, but could not get the Russians to agree to it, they kept messing around with his passport, not returning it to him, supposedly having lost it, etc. At the suggestion of the French ambassador in Vienna, he then requested a visa for England with stopover in Paris. He succeeded in getting that visa which had the mention ''passant par Paris'' accepted by the Russians, and that's how he was able to go to Paris - the destination he had in mind all the time. He left Vienna on 20 July 1831 arrived in Paris a few days later, and it is after three or four years there - depending on the date of his first French passport -, that he was issued a passport as a Frenchman born in Poland, of French parents. In my opinion, this information is not the result of original research as is constantly reproached me.

::In view of all this, I see no reason for automatically ignoring or denying Chopin's French nationality in the lead right along his Polish one.

::--] (]) 19:08, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

::: I on the other hand see no reason why should one want to have Chopin's alleged French "nationality" (which is rather in this case citizenship under the so called code Napoleon) in the lead. The article already extensively deal with it. I suggest removing the Polish-French from the lead and restoring the previous situation which was stable for a very long time. ] 19:59, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
::::Better still, let's remove the words 'Polish' and 'French' from the lead entirely and let the rest of the article deal with the subject. That would completely solve the problem. ] (]) 20:22, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

:::::Yesterday, it was "the French thing", today, it is the "alleged French "nationality"", through which I see more antagonism against anything that's French, specially when it touches Frédéric Chopin.
:::::Again, since he was French from birth, I see no reason to remove that fact from the lead where it belongs together with his being Polish.
:::::::"French from birth." This raises a question which, perhaps, a historian of law could address for us. Would an individual in Fryderyk's situation ''automatically'' be "French from birth," or would his parents have had to register the choice of French citizenship for him through appropriate channels? ] (]) 23:19, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
::::::::My dear Nihil: #10 on the page given below, says, in English:
::::::::''<u>Every child born of a Frenchman in a foreign country is French.<u>''
::::::::Period. That's it! His parents did not have to "register the choice of French citizenship for him through appropriate channels", they were not to choose whether their son should be a Frenchman or not, the very fact that Nicolas Chopin was French was it, was the reason his son was French. And that fact was inscribed on the baptismal record, the word "French" in Latin is there for a reason, meaning that the child who had been baptised had a French father. Then the French passport has "born of French parents". What else do you want?
::::::::*http://www.napoleon-series.org/research/government/code/book1/c_title01.html#chapter1
::::::::a chapter out of here:
::::::::*http://www.napoleon-series.org
::::::::Too bad that books published with mistakes are a better source than the not-in-a-book-form analysis by a civil law professor.
::::::::--] (]) 00:11, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
::::::::::Dear Frania, laws are administered by regulations and bureaucracies. If laws always sufficed, there would be no need of lawyers. ] (]) 00:32, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
:::::::::::My dear, although I'd rather not use personal examples, I will make an exception here: for several generations there have been cases very similar to that of Chopin ''père & fils'' in my family, and I can tell you that no lawyer was ever necessary to prove citizenship. All that was needed was a certified-by-notary birth or marriage certificate (or translation of) to show at the ''Préfecture de Police'' or at a certain Embassy. No lawyer. Minimal cost. --] (]) 00:57, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
:::::''"The truth is incontrovertible, malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end; there it is."'' I have seen that somewhere... Didn't the old Bulldog say it?
:::::--] (]) 20:23, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

:::::::Has Langavant's hypothesis, discussed in this on-line article, , received ]? ] (]) 04:33, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

::::::::My dear Nihil, to my knowledge, the Code, be it called ''Napoléon'' or ''Highway'', is a fact, not a "hypothesis"; so Langavant has done nothing more than discuss a fact, not a hypothesis. The sentence discussed ''<u>Every child born of a Frenchman in a foreign country is French.<u>'' is very clear & does not need the intervention of an army of lawyers to be interpreted to mean that the child born outside of France of a Frenchman is French. So I do not see where Langavant's underlining a very simple sentence in the French civil Code needs to be reviewed by his peer or the President of the French Republic; it belongs to the French Civil Code, and clearer language could not have been used to write that born outside of France of a Frenchman, a child is French.
::::::::Please, tell me what type of "peer review" we need to write in Misplaced Pages about driving on the left in the UK?
::::::::*http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:26Qiny5ga1AJ:en.wikipedia.org/Right-_and_left-hand_traffic+driving+code+driving+on+the+left+in+England+wikipedia&cd=1&hl=fr&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a
::::::::or if this is to be an accepted & obvious fact, like breathing is a natural act necessary in order to live?
::::::::--] (]) 12:53, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

::::::::: '''"Every child born of a Frenchman in a foreign country is French"'''. This might be true from the point of view of French bureaucrats of the time. But that doesn't necessarily mean that a person born to a French father in a foreign country and raised in that country really feels/felt French. Or to put it differently if a person doesn't feel French then even 20 "codes Napoleon" won't make him French. ] 13:30, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

:::::::::: That person may also be entitled to a dual citizenship, as it may be granted to that person by the state it was born in. --<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 16:01, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

::::::::::::That person being born in Poland of a French father, having also been raised in Poland (and no one here is denying him his deep feeling of Polishness or his Polish nationality), that person, namely Frédéric Chopin, could have chosen another country to live in, England, for instance, but he chose France where he lived the entire second part of his life, eighteen years. He even went as far as using the French version of his baptismal names (which, by the way, he had to do as French nationals could, at the time, be given only French names) getting a French passport (several, in fact) with no one having to twist his wrist to do it, thus recognising the fact that he was French, as it was on the basis of his being born of a Frenchman in Poland thus being French, fact that the obtaining of his first French passport was confirming. That very same person lived in a Paris that he adored, lived among French people who adored him, spent summers in the French country home of a French woman among friends of all nationalities as guests; that French-fashion conscious person was one of the most elegant men in France, and when that person, namely Chopin, was on his deathbed, he was surrounded by close friends, French & Polish, and even from the other side of the English Channel. France gave him one of the most grandiose national funerals ever and the crowd was too big to describe who took him to his tomb at the Père Lachaise cemetery. Frédéric Chopin's love of France & the French is expressed in many of his letters.
::::::::::::--] (]) 17:05, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
::::::::::::::Hardly surprising that Chopin, when forced to remain abroad in the aftermath of the Polish ], should choose to do so in France, which was then the center of European and western culture. Many other members of Poland's ] at the time did the same, including Chopin's friend and Poland's pre-eminent ], ], who had no French ancestry.
::::::::::::::And if Chopin was honored in life and in death, it was principally as a great artist, and not just by Frenchmen. ] (]) 20:48, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::: Not forced to remain abroad according to this source, , The Cambridge companion to Chopin, Cambridge University Press 1995 page 6, "Life in France agreed with him and he quickly put to the back of his mind any thoughts of returning to his homeland (he could easily have done so when the Czar offered the first of many amnesties in 1833.)" ] (]) 00:52, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
::::::::::::::::::Sure, he (and the other members of Poland's ]) could have returned — had they not cared about expressing themselves freely. ] (]) 01:31, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
::::::::::::Yes, nonetheless, the fact that he was French was of much help to him because it allowed him to remain in France as a Frenchman, not as a political refugee.
::::::::::::::::::If a French passport was helpful to him, then he did wisely, making use of it. ] (]) 01:31, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
::::::::::::Nihil, I wish that you would stop trying to prove to me that Chopin was a Polish-Polish Pole. I know of his attachment to the land of his birth as much as you do, but I also know that he was also French. And he knew it too.
::::::::::::--] (]) 00:01, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
::::::::::::::::::It was Chopin's French girlfriend, ], and French biographer ] who described him as ] ] (]) 04:21, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::::::As has been pointed out before, at the time she made that comment Poland was Russian (with German and Austrian bits). ] (]) 18:02, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
::::::::::::::::::::So? ] wasn't addressing the ], but the ], of ]. ] (]) 20:33, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::::::::Hmm, interesting. Do you have a ] which talks about what Sand was addressing with that comment? Or is your analysis ]? ] (]) 22:41, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
::::::::::::::::::::::] would not have been so stupid as to compare the "Polishness" of an ''individual'' with that of a people who had supposedly ceased to exist, as you have suggested, merely because their ] had been destroyed. Nor would ] have done so:
::::::::::::::::::::::"Chopin, in spite of spending half of his life in Paris, remained characteristically Polish and was a 'lonely soul.' ], a biographer, said: 'The Slavs lend themselves gladly but never give themselves; Chopin is more Polish than Poland.'" Marion Bauer, ''Music Through the Ages: A Narrative for Student and Layman'', p. 248. ] (]) 01:07, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::::::::::Thank you for the comments about Énault, I was actually asking about Sand. I conclude that you have no such sources regarding what she was addressing. ] (]) 15:50, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Could somebody add a courtesy note about this discussion to ] (also doubles as the France regional noticeboard)? --<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 16:01, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

===Suggestion===
I'd like to suggest that editors post here their versions of the lead. Once we see what is actually disputed, as far as wording in the lead is concerned, it may be easier to reach a consensus - I see that the discussion seems to veer off in directions that are somewhat off-topic, as far as lead is concerned.--<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 17:10, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

====Lead as of now====
:''Note: first two paragraphs only as I don't think the third one is in any dispute''. <small>--<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 17:10, 22 May 2010 (UTC)</small>
{{blockquote|'''Frédéric François Chopin''', in Polish '''Fryderyk Franciszek Chopin''' (the ] is pronounced {{IPA-fr|ʃɔpɛ̃|}} in French, and usually {{IPA-en|ˈʃoʊpæn|}} in English; 1&nbsp;March 1810<ref name=Dob>Some sources give 22 February. See ] for details.</ref> &ndash; 17&nbsp;October 1849), was a Polish ] and ] pianist of French-Polish parentage, who is considered to have been one of the great masters of ].

Chopin was born in the Napoleonic ] to a French-] father and Polish mother, and was considered a ] pianist. Following the Russian suppression of the Polish ], Chopin settled in France as part of the Polish ]. In ] he supported himself as a composer and piano teacher, giving few public performances. After romantic involvements with several Polish women, from 1837 to 1847 he carried on a relationship with the French female novelist ]. For the greater part of his life Chopin suffered from poor health; he died in Paris, aged 39, of ].}}

:I think it does a pretty good job as it is. It's certainly true that there are people whose Polishness has been exaggerated on Misplaced Pages and elsewhere by overzealous Poles, but with the lead phrased as it is here, I honestly don't think Chopin is one of those cases.--] (]) 19:28, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

::I agree. ] (]) 19:45, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
:In the second passport it needs to be mentioned that his mother was Polish-French. Chopin was born to French parents (as his passport tells us). ] (]) 18:02, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
::Not sure what you mean by that; but the passport is presumably following the French legal definition of "French", which as we keep pointing out, is of very little interest to us. In fact the very fact that legally his mother may have been "French", while no reasonable source identifies her as such, is good evidence in itself that the world is not interested in people's nationality in the sense that you and others are trying to impose here.--] (]) 18:17, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
:::But the world ''has'' always been interested in C's nationality; do you disagree that ] is a good enough source for that? "Strong emotions have also been generated in interpretation of the works of F. Chopin (1810-49). Although the French have been slightly less proprietorial towards Chopin than the Germans towards Copernicus, the same debates and disagreements concerning the extent and significance of his 'Polishness' have regularly recurred". ] (]) 18:43, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
::::What one thinks may depend on which Briton one wishes to believe. Chopin's English biographer ], quoted in our article's "]" section, writes in '']'' that Chopin "found within himself and in the tragic story of ] the chief sources of his inspiration. The theme of Poland's glories and sufferings was constantly before him, and he transmuted the primitive rhythms and melodies of his youth into enduring art forms." ] (]) 20:47, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
:::::Also (if the quote above is all Davies says on the matter) he seems to be talking about ''interpretation of Chopin's works'' rather than the man's nationality or "citizenship".--] (]) 06:27, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
::::::That's right. ] (]) 06:37, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
:::::::A great deal of Chopin historiography revolves around his ethnicity directly in relation to his work, so it's hard to separate the two. From Music in Chopin's Warsaw, Halina Goldberg, Oxford University Press, 2008, p.6: "The demand for unambiguous Polishness, as defined by the successive "-isms," played a role in several aspects of Chopin historiography." From ]'s entry in The age of Chopin: interdisciplinary inquiries, Indiana University Press, 2004, p.291: "In the process of asserting Chopin's Polish identity at the beginning of the twentieth century, an awareness of his '''double cultural and personal background''' (my emphasis) was replaced by a belief in his fully Polish origins." On a general note, apart from the Polish-French in the lead issue (which I'm going to withdraw from - clearly a time sink and I would like to think that people read entire articles rather than stop after the first two sentences), I'd like to see the article move towards more modern sources and interpretations, other than the occasional quote from a notable contemporary. I presume I don't need to justify that. ] (]) 14:49, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

::Not sure what is meant by the "second passport" (second paragraph)? But I note that nobody is proposing any changes to the lead. Can we assume that as far as the lead is concerned, the current version is an acceptable compromise? Are there any issues about the body that need to be discussed? --<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 23:29, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

:::The lead: as it reads right now, although there is an improvement by recognising his "French-Polish parentage", is not 100 per cent what I would like to agree to, because Frédéric Chopin was '''''both''''' Polish '''''and''''' French. The problem I am encountering is finding a source other than Langavant, since what he wrote is not in a book form and cannot, supposedly, be used, although we also have the 1804 ''Code Napoléon'' itself, in French & with the English translation found online, which I gave somewhere above in previous section. I also realise that we must reach consensus, which, if I understand, would not set the lead in stone. If someone ever comes with properly sourced material RE Chopin's French nationality then the lead could be rectified.
:::Britannica Macropædia - Knowledge in Depth, 15th edition, 1997, as well as Britannica Encyclopædia Britannica 2009 edition online have Chopin as Polish-French:
:::* Frédéric François Chopin Polish-French, born of a French father...
:::Langavant is not the only author who has demonstrated that Chopin was French at birth, but it is difficult to find all the authors. French pianist Alfred Cortot in his book ''Aspects de Chopin'', chapter: ''Ce qu'il doit à la France'', p. 110 Albin Michel, wrote: "''... sa citoyenneté française authentiquée légalement par un passeport...''", referring to the 1837 passport. ("His French citizenship legally authenticated by a passport.") Pianist Maria Gondolo della Riva Masera in her book ''Frédéric Chopin, Aperçus biographiques'' (ed. Michel de Maule, 2010) calls Chopin Franco-Polish
:::Finally, at Misplaced Pages Reliable Sources, I found this: "''When discussing legal texts, it is more reliable to quote from the text, appropriately qualified jurists or textbooks than from newspaper reporting.''"
:::*http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Reliable_source_examples#Law
:::So if it is "more reliable to quote from the text", why can't the 1804 ''Code Napoléon'', with the short sentence ''A child born... is French'', be used as a source? It certainly would simplify matters.
:::--] (]) 02:52, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
::::Because the Code Napoleon isn't the subject of the article. We are ''not'' discussing legal texts in this article - and ''even if'' we find some reliable source somewhere that make this link between French law and Chopin's situation, it still wouldn't belong in the lead, but as a detail somewhere in the article. The biographical sources that you quote which describe him as Polish-French/Franco-Polish etc. are of much more significance - if we can conclude that there are a significant number of them relative to the number that describe him simply as Polish, then we could try reflecting both viewpoints in the lead (I once suggested "...a Polish (sometimes described as Polish-French) composer...") --] (]) 06:38, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
:::::It has never been my intention to discuss the ''Code Napoléon'' in the lead, or make it "the subject of the article", but to have it recognised beforehand as a proper source to support those who say that Chopin was a French national at birth, together with being Polish, and having such stated in the lead: Polish-French.
:::::As for finding a nearly equal number of sources describing Chopin Polish-French vs only Polish, this is impossible because for over a century the Poles have taken over Chopin to the point that the simple fact of bringing out the possible French nationality of Chopin has been taken by the Poles as an attempt to kidnap a national hero.
:::::Without going back to the whole unending debate, I would like to mention again that several articles on famous people mention a double nationality with no outcry, no request for support by secondary or tertiary sources: Einstein, Rubinstein, Werner von Braun, Cortot, Yves Montand, or Guillaume Apollinaire, born a Pole in Italy, who became French at the age of 36, and given as a "French poet, playwright and art critic" as a matter of fact, with not even the batting of an eye.
:::::What I am saying is that Frédéric Chopin is being subjected to a well-orchestrated treatment applied to no one else in Misplaced Pages.
:::::--] (]) 12:04, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

::::Dear Frania. I am having trouble figuring out ''exactly'' what change you'd like to make. Could you post a proposed new version of a sentence (paragraph) in your own new section and add a justification below? If you could put it side by side with the current version that would be best. --<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 18:42, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

====Choices for lead====
=Lead as it appears now=:
{{blockquote|'''Frédéric François Chopin''', in Polish '''Fryderyk Franciszek Chopin''' (the ] is pronounced {{IPA-fr|ʃɔpɛ̃|}} in French, and usually {{IPA-en|ˈʃoʊpæn|}} in English; 1&nbsp;March 1810<ref name=Dob>Some sources give 22 February. See ] for details.</ref> &ndash; 17&nbsp;October 1849), was a Polish ] and ] pianist of French-Polish parentage. He was one of the great masters of ].

Chopin was born in the Napoleonic ] to a French-] father and a Polish mother, and was a ] pianist and composer. Following the Russian suppression of the Polish ], Chopin settled in France as part of the Polish ]. In ] he supported himself as a composer and piano teacher, giving few public performances. After romantic involvements with several Polish women, from 1837 to 1847 he carried on a relationship with the French novelist, Aurore Dupin, better known by her pseudonym, ]. For the greater part of his life Chopin suffered from poor health; he died in Paris, aged 39, of ].}}

=Second possibility=:
{{blockquote|'''Frédéric François Chopin''', in Polish '''Fryderyk Franciszek Chopin''' (the ] is pronounced {{IPA-fr|ʃɔpɛ̃|}} in French, and usually {{IPA-en|ˈʃoʊpæn|}} in English; 1&nbsp;March 1810<ref name=Dob>Some sources give 22 February. See ] for details.</ref> &ndash; 17&nbsp;October 1849), was a Polish born composer and virtuoso pianist of Polish-French parentage. He was one of the great masters of ].

Chopin was born in the Napoleonic ] to a French-] father and Polish mother, and was a ] pianist and composer. Following the Russian suppression of the Polish ], Chopin settled in France as part of the Polish ]. In ] he supported himself as a composer and piano teacher, giving few public performances. After romantic involvements with several Polish women, from 1837 to 1847 he carried on a relationship with the French novelist, Aurore Dupin, better known by her pseudonym, ]. For the greater part of his life Chopin suffered from poor health; he died in Paris, at the age of thirty-nine, of ].}}

=Third possibility=:
{{blockquote|'''Frédéric François Chopin''', in Polish '''Fryderyk Franciszek Chopin''' (the ] is pronounced {{IPA-fr|ʃɔpɛ̃|}} in French, and usually {{IPA-en|ˈʃoʊpæn|}} in English; 1&nbsp;March 1810<ref name=Dob>Some sources give 22 February. See ] for details.</ref> &ndash; 17&nbsp;October 1849), was a Polish-French composer and virtuoso pianist. He was one of the great masters of ].

Chopin was born in the Napoleonic ] to a French father and a Polish mother, and was a ] pianist and composer. Following the Russian suppression of the Polish ], Chopin settled in France as part of the Polish ]. In ], he supported himself as a composer and piano teacher, giving few public performances. After romantic involvements with several Polish women, from 1837 to 1847 he carried on a relationship with the French novelist, Aurore Dupin, better known by her pseudonym, ]. For the greater part of his life Chopin suffered from poor health; he died in Paris, at the age of thirty-nine, of ].}}

=Comment=:

Obviously, the third possibility is the one I prefer because Polish-French is what Chopin was, but since we must reach consensus, and until the French nationality of Chopin at birth can be verified according to Misplaced Pages "rules & regulations", I would approve the second one.

--] (]) 02:26, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

:But we've been there before. "Polish born" is a weird expression that implies - well, we're not sure what it implies, different things to different people, but nothing that will increase a reader's understanding of the facts. Your unilateral statement that "Polish-French is what Chopin was" is - well, it's your unilateral statement - it's supported by some sources, but fails to reflect the general view of the sources (not only Polish ones, by any means) that Chopin was "more" Polish than French. For me, the mention of "Polish-French parentage" (perhaps slightly better would be "French-Polish", or we could write English and say "mixed French and Polish") in the same sentence is quite enough to reflect his Frenchness, since presumably the sources that describe him as Polish-French/Franco-Polish are doing so on the basis of his parentage. But if it's so important to indicate that not all sources regard him as exclusively Polish, then we should at least find wording (even if slightly awkward) that make it clear that very many of them do - and certainly none of them regard him as exclusively French.--] (]) 07:47, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

::To me, "Polish born", implies that he was "born a Pole". If you say that I am "French born", no matter where I was born, you are saying that I "am French". In the lead, we want to say what Chopin was exactly, not translate the feeling/opinion of those who said that "Chopin was more Polish than Poland", which is not a nationality, nor can be mentioned on a passport, even a Polish one. Besides, someone with mixed parentage can very well be "more one than the other", which does not keep that person from being the product of both.
::--] (]) 10:20, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
:::So if he was born a Pole, then he was a Pole his whole life, right? Your thesis is that he didn't change his nationality in any sense at any point. So what does adding "born" add to the meaning, except to make people think (wrongly) that he ceased to be Polish later on (or, if they interpret the phrase differently, that he wasn't really Polish but just happened to be born in Poland)? And what is this obsession with passports?--] (]) 10:56, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
::::::], Frédéric Chopin's Polish nationality, which was his all his life, has never been in doubt, it is his French nationality that is being denied.
::::::If "Polish", as meaning "Polish national", (and only "Polish", not "Polish born"), is put in first sentence of lead, then "French" has to be right there next to it, because, son of a Frenchman, Chopin was a French national at birth. Were he born today, the same would apply. May I again repeat that others in same or similar case as Chopin have all their nationalities mentioned in first sentence of lead: Einstein, Rubinstein, von Braun, Cortot and many more, too numerous to list here.
::::::There is no "obsession" with passports on my part. In this lengthy discussion, both here & on the article talk page, Chopin's 1837 passport was one of the two pieces (the other being the baptismal record) used by Langavant together with the 1804 ''Code Napoléon'' to juridically prove that Frédéric Chopin was born French. The only reason the passport keeps on coming back in the conversation is because you & others keep on asking the same question(s) which I calmy & politely answer all over again each time. So the "obsession" might be on the other side, the side of those who ''obsessively'' ask for proof over & over again, then turn down whatever is brought to them.
::::::--] (]) 22:43, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
::::He was born Polish '''and''' French. His father was also born French. His mother was born Polish and then became Polish-French when she married his father. So Chopin was born to a French father and a Polish-French mother. The best way to make it clear that he was both Polish and French his entire life is to describe him as "Polish-French", not as "Polish-born". ] (]) 11:14, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
:::::Do you have any source that describes his mother as Polish-French?--] (]) 11:28, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
::::::Yes. Please see above on this page. It would be best if certain editors could understand that constantly re-requesting sources which have already been given is not in the slightest bit helpful to the discussion here or the common goal. ] (]) 12:13, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
:::::::Sorry, I still can't find it, please can you point it out.--] (]) 12:22, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

:::::::: Chopin's mother was 100% Polish and there is no source which would say anything different. The "source" that Varsovian keeps repeating is some French bureaucrat of the time writing something as that "the wife should follow his husband condition", which according to Varsovian's original research means she should be considered "French". De facto that would mean that every women who ever, anywhere married a Frenchman is French, which is absurd. Let's be totally honest here: saying that Chopin's mother was French has as much credibility as saying that Chopin was a bastard, that is zero. The real question is how to consider Chopin's father; since he spent a good part of his life living in Poland, where he adopted the name Mikolaj, he should be considered as French-Polish. ] 12:33, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
:::::::::Again, I disagree with that unless that's how sources refer to him (and I think it's not). --] (]) 12:59, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
:::::::: Emmanuel Langavant, agrégé de droit public, professeur à la faculté de droit de l'université de Lille II, was not a French bureaucrat of the time and reading his work is not original research. But clearly anything which states that Chopin was anything less than 100% Polish will simply be dismissed as 'original research' by editors who are unable to stop their nationalism getting in the way of their objectivity. I do like Loosmark's question about Chopin's father though. Let me use the same logic here: the real question is how to consider Nicolas Chopin's son: since he spent a good part of his life living in France, where he used the name Frédéric François and took up the French passport which was his birth-right, he should be considered as French-Polish. ] (]) 16:16, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
::::::::: Please provide a source where the professeur says that Chopin's mother was French. ] 16:33, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
::::::::::Dr. Loosmark,
::::::::::*http://en.wikipedia.org/Napoleonic_code
::::::::::English translation of ''Code Napoléon'':
::::::::::*http://www.napoleon-series.org/research/government/c_code.html
::::::::::TITLE I Chapter I where you will find both the nationality of the child & that of the woman who marries a Frenchman, and YES, paraphrasing you: "''every woman who ever, anywhere married a Frenchman was French''", at time of the implementation of the 1804 ''Code Napoléon'', which covered the wife of Nicolas Chopin. As for Nicolas Chopin, the fact that he adopted the spelling of his baptismal name in Polish did not make a Polish national out of him; also, he did not change the spelling of his last name, which remained "CHOPIN". And if you think that he did become a Pole, then you should bring proof, such as ''facsimile'' of his becoming a Pole, which could be considered original research, but which I would love to see, ''simplement'' out of curiosity.
::::::::::*http://www.napoleon-series.org/research/government/code/book1/c_title01.html#chapter1
::::::::::The jurists who wrote the French Civil Code were not "some French bureaucrat(s)", no more than those who wrote the ] or ] were "some American bureaucrats". Your antagonism against the French is showing through such statements.
::::::::::Also, Professeur Emmanuel Langavant is the one who did the OR, not ] nor myself.
::::::::::And, please, someone explain to me why, in the whole of Misplaced Pages, only Chopin's French nationality is being put under such hair-splitting scrutiny, while similar cases have never been questioned.
::::::::::--] (]) 23:32, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
:::::::::::You tell us, you're the one who keeps going on and on about it.
::::::::::::Kotniski: the reason "I keep going on and on about it", as you so gentlemanly put it, is because you & others keep on refusing to accept the work done by a French jurist from the 1804 ''Code Napoléon'', and his argumentation explaining why Chopin was born French, while there are articles in Misplaced Pages that recognise the double nationality of other famous people without giving any source for the statement being made. (Please see above & at Chopin talk page for a short list.)
::::::::::::--] (]) 03:34, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
:::::::::::The point I keep making is that ''even if'' Chopin was a French "national" or "citizen" under French law (and I assume he was), and ''even if'' this is confirmed by a reliable source (your self-published professor doesn't count, but I presume there must be one somewhere), this isn't enough to characterize him in the first sentence of the article as half-French.
::::::::::::'''half-French''' would not be correct: Chopin was '''Polish and French''', "'à part entière''" as the French say, not ''half & half''. Article 10 of the Code in which it said that "a child born outside of France of a Frenchman is French" does not say "half-French".
::::::::::::--] (]) 03:34, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
:::::::::::The very fact that all the many biographies of Chopin seem to ignore this issue is in itself compelling evidence that people don't care about such legal questions when characterizing someone's nationality.
::::::::::::The many biographies of Chopin are written by musicologists who may not be aware of the fact that Chopin was Polish & French.
::::::::::::--] (]) 03:34, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
:::::::::::Or at least, not in his case (where as you know perfectly well, the nation that he was brought up among and identified with didn't have its own state or a Napoleon who could lay down laws).
::::::::::::But that is not correct, because "the nation that he was brought up among..." was a nation, the Duchy of Warsaw, created by Napoléon (Treaty of Tilsit, 7 July 1807), and where Napoléon had brought the French Code, which applied to Chopin when he was born.
::::::::::::--] (]) 03:34, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
:::::::::::You seem to think that because he chose a French passport over a ''Russian'' one, that makes him less ''Polish''.
::::::::::::Kotniski! You are putting words in my mouth! I have never written anywhere that Chopin was "less Polish" because he was also French. Please read my previous comments. Chopin was a Pole <u>and<u> a Frenchman. After his arrival in France he had a choice between registering with French authorities as a political refugee, renew his Russian passport & or get a French one to which he had every right since he was French, and he, naturally, chose the passport of his other nationality, instead of registering as a "Polish" political refugee, which he could also have done.)
::::::::::::--] (]) 03:34, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
:::::::::::Surely you can see how illogical that is (and how insulted Chopin himself might be if he were around to hear it).
::::::::::::How can you say that what I am saying is insulting to Chopin? He came to France on his own free will, got a French passport on his own free will, renewed it several times & never tried to go & live anywhere else than in France. So, why would he be insulted if I were to tell him that he was also French since he himself accepted that fact, lived for eighteen years in France and is buried there on his own free will?
::::::::::::--] (]) 03:34, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
:::::::::::He had a French father, that's undeniable, and that ought to be made clear right from the start.
::::::::::::Yes, he had a French father, and that made him automatically French!
::::::::::::--] (]) 03:34, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
:::::::::::But to insist ''in addition to that'' that we go with the minority of the reliable sources that describe him as French-Polish rather than the majority that have him as Polish can only be explained as a desire to push what is a very obviously personal point of view.--] (]) 06:12, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
::::::::::::I am not moved by "the desire to push what is a very obviously personal point of view", I am pushed by the desire of having the truth eventually recognised that Frédéric François Chopin was born both French and Polish, which I am not advancing through a "personal point of view", but by my knowledge of French law, both now & at time of Chopin's birth. The majority can be wrong; it also can often be described a flock of sheep that blindly follow a leader into a ravine.
::::::::::::--] (]) 03:34, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
:::::::::::::No-one is "right" or "wrong" about this - in a sense he was French, in a sense he was Polish, in a sense he was Duchy or Warsaw-ish (you must surely know that that wasn't what I meant by a "nation"), in a sense he was probably Russian and German too, but the question is how to best characterize him in the lead - what information to give to readers without misleading them, but at the same time without giving undue weight to non-essential facts that belong somewhere in the detail of the article. Misplaced Pages doesn't serve the purpose you seem to want it to - it isn't supposed to create new narratives, just reflect what reliable published sources say, and where those sources disagree, reflect that disagreement and the relative prominence of the various views. I believe that on the nationality issue this is best done by saying either that he was Polish but (in the same sentence) that one of his parents was French; or by stating explicitly (e.g. through a parenthetical) that though he is most generally described as Polish, there are also sources who have him as Polish-French. Your attachment to the importance of the '''legal''' sense (only one of many senses) of nationality is one that the sources don't reflect, so it would be wrong for Misplaced Pages to reflect it just to satisfy the variously-motivated desires of a few editors. --] (]) 07:27, 28 May 2010 (UTC)
::::::::::::::You have said your piece & I have said mine, and I am left with the feeling that the opposition to recognise what I have brought to this discussion is not that it is not "wikipediable", but that I have struck the most sensitive nerve of the Polish Resistance at having Frédéric François Chopin be anything but Polish. As I pointed out, in several cases no one seems to care if a second nationality is given the subject of an article - no source given, no question asked. Chopin is the only one being denied a nationality that was his at birth. I am wondering what "variously-motivated desires" '']'' had "to satisfy" when it gave Chopin as "Polish-French".
::::::::::::::*''The Encyclopædia Britannica (Latin for "British Encyclopaedia") is a general English-language encyclopaedia published by Encyclopædia Britannica, Inc., a privately held company. Articles are aimed at educated adults, and written by about 100 full-time editors and more than 4,000 expert contributors. It is regarded as the most scholarly of encyclopaedias.''
::::::::::::::--] (]) 22:06, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

I am uneasy with Polish born, as it is unclear whether this refers to nationality or citizenship. Chooing between the current and third variant is hard. How about this solution (I'll bold the parts that are changed compared to the current version):

{{blockquote|'''Frédéric François Chopin''', in Polish '''Fryderyk Franciszek Chopin''' (the ] is pronounced {{IPA-fr|ʃɔpɛ̃|}} in French, and usually {{IPA-en|ˈʃoʊpæn|}} in English; 1&nbsp;March 1810<ref name=Dob>Some sources give 22 February. See ] for details.</ref> &ndash; 17&nbsp;October 1849), was a Polish ] and ] pianist of French-Polish parentage '''and residentship'''. He was one of the great masters of ].

Chopin was born in the ''']ic''' ] to a French-] father and a Polish mother, and was a ] pianist and composer. '''Soon after his birth, in 1815, the Duchy of Warsaw was ], with most of it falling to the ].''' Following the Russian suppression of the Polish ], Chopin settled in France as part of the Polish ]. In ] he supported himself as a composer and ''']''' teacher, giving few public performances. After romantic involvements with several Polish women, from 1837 to 1847 he carried on a relationship with the French novelist, Aurore Dupin, better known by her pseudonym, ]. For the greater part of his life Chopin suffered from poor health; he died in Paris, aged 39, of ].}}

I think it is important to clarify in the first paragraph that Chopin spend a significant part of his life in France. I also added a sentence that should clarify to the uninformed leader the sudden transition from discussion of the "Napoleonic Duchy of Warsaw" to the "Russian suppression of the uprising". Lastly, I added a few ilinks. Thoughts? --<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 20:27, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Ultimately there is little question that a reality check, already backed by sufficient sources, will allow Chopin to be acknowledged as a French-Polish composer and virtuoso pianist. First, by his paternity, and then by his emigration to France where he not only spent a large part of his life, but wrote the majority of his works for which he is most famous. Those are the simple facts. No bias. No nationalism. No fantasies. If anything, this "discussion", which should have ended long ago, might help to improve the encyclopedic quality of the article's lead by concentrating on Chopin's talents and contribution to music. How Poles interpret his music in relation to the ] certainly doesn't belong in the lead any more than the ridiculous..."''After romantic involvements with several Polish women...''" and might I add that even the gratuitous mention of ] in the lead should probably be also reconsidered. In all likelihood, Pauline Strauss was probably more important and significant in the life of ], than George Sand (who ultimately dumped Chopin) was in Chopin's, yet this cigar smoking "feminist" really gets a little too much coverage to begin with, and putting her in the the lead is, IMHO, overkill. In fact, without Chopin, George Sand would hardly be remembered today as even a footnote insofar as having any true notability. Lots of George Sands, very few Chopins. Furthermore, after the Prokonsul Piotrus states his viewpoint and opinion concerning this matter, I believe the discussion should be returned to the Chopin article talk page. Although the Prokonsul is banned from participating at that forum, very few Wikipedians, on English Misplaced Pages, are familiar or interested in this WikiprojectPoland. We can certainly take his opinion into consideration at that venue. This is certainly not the most neutral arena to resolve this fracas once and for all. ] (]) 02:57, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
:Dan, emigrating to a country, even spending half your life there (as I know from my own personal situation) doesn't make you a member of that nation. Nor does having a parent from that country. I agree that there should be more about music and less biographical detail in the lead (though Sand is perhaps a significant enough figure in his life to deserve some mention).--] (]) 06:12, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
::Quite right. However, being born a particular nationality to parents who were both at least partly that nationality does tend to make one a member of that nation, especially when one later chooses to move to that nation and live in that nation as a member of that nation and to enjoy all the rights associated with membership of that nation. I say 'tend' because apparently some editors would not be convinced that Chopin was partly French even if they were taken back in time to speak to Chopin and personally told by him that he was partly French: no doubt those editors would dismiss what they had just heard as 'original research' and ask <s>Frédéric</s> Fryderyk to provide some verifiable peer-reviewed reliable sources to confirm what he had just told them. ] (]) 15:54, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
:::Do you have some statement by Chopin that implies he regarded himself as partly French? I'd be quite happy to describe him as such if he did himself.--] (]) 17:00, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

== ] ==

Somebody proposed to rename the ''Polish–Teutonic War (1431–1435)'' article into ''"Lithianuan civil war"''. If you have an opinion please state it on the article's talk page. ] 19:45, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
:For obvious reasons, I can only offer my advice here. Nonetheless, as and to that article in years past, I do have a suggestion.

:The problem, if this is not a too strong of a term for it (no criticism is intended) can be traced to this old expansion by Renata: which changed the focus of the article from PTW to LCW, and through the article's evolution led to the creation of article which discusses both.

:The question is: do we want to split articles into PTW and LCW, or keep one? Arguments can be made for both sides, but the move request focuses on keeping one large article. For that, please note that there are plenty of sources discussing PTW.

:Novickas was nice enough to list one source. But he forgot about few more listed years ago at ]
:On a side note, the quote ""This became the cause of a war in 1431 — 1435 between Poland and..." can be expanded with "...Świdrygiełło together with the Teutonic Knights with the help of the Czech Hussites as Poland's allies."

:In addition to those, here are several more sources mentioning PTW:
* ''Trade and urban development in Poland'' by Francis W. Carter: refers to a war between Poland and Teutonic Knights in 1431-35
* ''A history of Polish Christianity'' by Jerzy Kłoczowski: refers to the Teutonic Knights attack on Poland in 1431
* ''Quaestiones medii aevi'', Volume 3‎ - Page 131: :
*''The shorter Cambridge medieval history, Volume 2'' by Charles William Previté-Orton: "Jagiello now had to deal with revolt in Lithuania and a fresh war with the Teutonic Order (1431-5)"
*''A concise history of Poland'' by Jerzy Lukowski, W. H. Zawadzki: : refers to the war of 1431-35 (alongside the wars of 1409-11, 1414, 1422)
:And so on. Instead of listing all sources and trying to see if any has a slight advantage, let's try a different approach.

:What is more important? The international conflict known as PTW, or the local conflict, known as the LCW? I am afraid we could debate it for ever, and it doesn't seem like the existing literature is of much help. As such, perhaps the "eat the cake and keep the cake" solution is the best. By that, I mean a ''correct'' split of the article.

:The Lithuanian Civil War was notable on its own - just as the Polish-Teutonic War (1431-1435). A glance on Polish Misplaced Pages (]) does show that that article focuses on the Polish front, and lacks most of the details about the Lithuanian civil war presented here. This seems to offer a guide on how to carry out a proper split (leading to the creation of a proper, fleshed, beyond-the-stub PTW and LCW articles). The recent split was certainly not done correctly, as can be seen from comparisons of the two post-split versions:
:
:
:For example, if the split is along the "Lithuanian" and "international" sections, the "Hussite invasion of Prussia" section certainly belongs to the PTW, and there is no reason to remove most of the background and aftermath, which are common to both articles. The Polish wiki article serves as a good guide as to what, roughly, should be in the PLT article, and only briefly mentioned in the LCW article (which could have a section on "International theatre" or such). In the same manner, it is certainly correct that details of the Lithuanian campaign (Coup in Lithuania, Decisive battle) should be described in detail in the LCW article, and only be summarized briefly in the PLT article (do note that the post-split version ignored them).

:To summarize, my recommendation is: do a proper split, not a move. A new subarticle, LCW should be created, based on sections of the PLW. The sections split should be summarized (not cut) in the PTW article, and there is also some content at the pl wikipedia article that is not present in the PLW one that should be translated. This should satisfy all the parties, and at the same time be the most encyclopedic solution (as both LCW and PLT terms are notable and yet somewhat different, per PManderson analogy there to WWII and the Great Patriotic War). --<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 17:38, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

:PS. As far as I can tell, there is no work which mentions either the PTW or the LCW in the title (at least, not in English). The "On the civil war of 1432-1440" seems to be part of a regular sentence () and in fact it is not clear if it refers to the same civil war (the dates differ, and the source focuses on the Ruthenians ). --<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 17:57, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

::I'm in agreement with the two separate articles idea. But how to execute it. Piotrus, you could write a new article focusing on the PL-Teutonic angle. You email it to somebody, they post it in their userspace. (This looks aboveboard enough to satisfy the terms of ]) Then we rename the current article LT civil war (1430-1440), move the new article into ], and ask some knowledgleable person to fix up the article histories. How's that? ] (]) 13:42, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
:::In principle, yes. I'd like to help, and indeed, in the past, I'd have already written/translated/split content as suggested above. In practice, I am afraid some may consider me creating an article and emailing it to somebody can be seen as breaking the topic ban (in theory you are right that it should be ok under ] but in practice and my experience this is (sadly) not a policy that is well respected). You could ask for an arbitration clarification, but till I hear otherwise I am assuming somebody will see it as such and complain. I can write such an article in my userspace on Polish Misplaced Pages, and you could file for an amendment that you, I or others can move transwiki it from there as was done with ] (]). Or you could ask for an amendment to allow me to edit those two articles here directly. I am afraid that those are the only two ways I could help at this point (other than offering suggestions here). --<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 15:24, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
::::Request for clarification posted at an Arbcom page here . I would still request that you not edit the current article, and leave the new article's subsequent editing to others. ] (]) 16:04, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
:::::Arb clarification wasn't the right place, someone removed it. Apparently it should have gone in Requested Amendments. So P. could ask the editors involved in that amendment to do it again. Alternatively, or as a short term solution, I'd be willing to put this ] in as a replacement (a trsnlation of the PL WP article .) ] (]) 14:07, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
::::::For a few days after the move was closed, the article ] was a redirect to the LT civil war; it's now been recreated, mostly by translation of the corresponding PL WP article. ] (]) 15:40, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

== CFD nomination ==

You may be interested in voicing your opinion at . The nominator attempts to break the already working categorization scheme about Polish cities and towns (miasta) and put them into "populated places" categories. - ] (]) 11:13, 5 June 2010 (UTC)


== Dividing ] into two or three articles ==
== Participants list ==


Hi, I wrote more in detail about my proposal in the ], but in short, the name ] throughout history was used fir three different stations, one in the 1930s/1940s, one in 1940s–1990s, and current one built in 2021. As such, I want to propose to creating separate articles for them.] (]) 01:01, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
"Activity is checked periodically, last time in '''March 2009'''" - Should be reviewed or removed.] (]) 12:17, 7 June 2010 (UTC)
:I plan on checking it at soon as I can. --<sub><span style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">]|]</span></sub> 15:14, 7 June 2010 (UTC)


== Renaming the ] to Democratic Party (Poland) ==
== ], ] ==


Hi, I belive that the ] should be renamed to the "Democratic Party (Poland)". I think it would be a better translation of the name, and that current translation is wrong. Firstly, "alliance" means "sojusz", and not "stronictwo", which would be just "party". Word stronictwo, literally means 'a side of something', or 'a part of something', eg, a party. Futhermore, Polish title is in adjective form, so even "Democratic Alliance" would be more correct in this case. As such, "Alliance of Democrats" would rather be translation of "Sojusz Domokratów", than "Stronictwo Demokratyczne. What do you think? ] (]) 20:07, 18 October 2024 (UTC)
The article is POV, it's goal is to accuse "Polish collaborators", who weren't frequently Polish or were rather victims than collaborators. This Misplaced Pages doesn't discuss ] nor ] (Sudentengermans).


== Any people intrested in writing about WW2 in Warsaw, who would like to collaborate? ==
An example of a Polish collaborator is in this Misplaced Pages ], the article recently rewritten on the basis of http://www.independent.co.uk/news/nazis-hired-killer-who-lay-low-for-50-years-1084566.html , which claims that his mother was Polish but he was nicknamed "Andrusha". Maybe for a British journalist "Andrusha" is a typical Polish name, not for me. Can someone explain me, why the article discusses Sawoniuk's citizenship? What citizenship could have a village boy around 1921? ] (]) 09:31, 9 June 2010 (UTC)


Hi, I like writing Warsaw-related articles, such as about its neighbourhoods and buildings. But, I'm not the best when it comes to writing about WW2, and it's kinda a big topic when it comes to this city. So, I thought maybe there would be people with better expertise on the WW2 in Warsaw, who would like to collaborate with me. For example, I would write most of the article about some neighbourhood, and you would help me cover the revenant WW2 events in the history section etc? Idk, I just thought I could try to ask here. Feel free to write to me if you are interested :) ] (]) 21:13, 2 November 2024 (UTC)
:] certainly does have some factual errors. I'll go through some other sources and add the correct facts. Please note that the article on Sawoniuk does not state that he was in the Wehrmacht, it states that he was in the police (a fact on which Sawoniuk agreed). However he maintained that his police unit carried out 'anti-partisan' operations, while a British court found that he had actually taken part in the holocaust. I have left a note regarding the sentence you object to at the talkpage for that article. Please also note that the article actually now links to seven separate sources, not just one.] (]) 10:08, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
::Do "correct facts" include that Andriusha Sawoniuk was Polish?] (]) 12:42, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
:::Born in Poland to a Polish mother and a father of unknown nationality. That makes him more Polish than Chopin! Chopin's father was known not to be Polish and Chopin didn't serve in the Polish army. If Sawoniuk isn't Polish, neither is Chopin. But please don't 'correct' the Chopin article. As far as I can see, ] doesn't so much as mention Sawoniuk. Perhaps you'd like to discuss the topic of this section or start another one in which to discuss another topic? ] (]) 12:57, 9 June 2010 (UTC)


== Requested move at ] ==
:::: What exactly has a war criminal to do with F.Chopin!? ] 13:07, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
] There is a requested move discussion at ] that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. —usernamekiran ] 21:31, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
:::::Absolutely nothing. Other than the fact that if he isn't Polish, neither is Chopin. Clearly Chopin is at least partly Polish. Unless we can find a source which says that Sawoniuk's father was a nationality other than Polish, Sawoniuk is purely Polish. ] (]) 14:47, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
:::::: "Sawoniuk is purely Polish". Do you have a reliable source for that claim or is that yet again your personal opinion? ] 14:50, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
:::::::His mother was Polish. We know that. We do not know what nationality his father was. If his father was Belarussian, Sawoniuk would be Polish-Belarussian. If his father was French, Sawoniuk would be Polish-French (just like Chopin). We know that Sawoniuk was a Polish national and we know that he was in the Polish police and the Polish army. What nationality would you like him to be? And more importantly, what sources do you have to back that stance? ] (]) 14:59, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
::::::::And even more importantly, what sources do you have to back ''your'' stance?? I don't see anyone else making any claims about his nationality.--] (]) 15:06, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
:::::::::As noted above, the Independent. ] (]) 15:09, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
::::::::::The Independent article you cite above doesn't support any of your claims except that his mother was Polish.--] (]) 15:14, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
::::As far the only source that Sawoniuk's mother was Polish is The Independent, a very competent source in Polish matters, eg. "Polish death camp", „The Independent on Sunday”, 16.01.2005., 20.12.2009 "southern Polish death camp" (which may be geographical). The last name Sawoniuk is Belarussian and the family was probably Orthodox. ] (]) 13:35, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
:::::As noted on the talkpage of the article: if you have issues with the reliability of the source, please take it to ]. ] (]) 14:54, 9 June 2010 (UTC)


== Chopin vs Sawoniuk == == Robots of Stanisław Lem ==


Please speak at ] --] ] 12:03, 11 January 2025 (UTC)
Would anybody care to explain why Chopin is currently described as Polish (and can not be described as Polish-French) despite having a French father while, according to some editors, Antony Sawoniuk (who had a Polish mother, may or may not have had a Polish father but we don't know the father's nationality or even the father's true identity, was in the Polish police force and was in the Polish army) is not to be described as Polish? ] (]) 15:16, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
:SOURCES.--] (]) 15:46, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
::Sources confirm that: Sawoniuk's mother was Polish, Sawoniuk was born in Poland, Sawoniuk had a Polish birth certificate, Sawoniuk joined the Polish army, Sawoniuk was in the Polish police force, and Sawoniuk viewed himself as a Polish patriot. What else would you like sources to state about Sawoniuk's Polishness? ] (]) 15:53, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
:::Nothing - all that information is in the article (except the Polish police force - did you mean that?) (Well, of course we don't know that he "viewed himself" as a Polish patriot, only that he "posed" as one, which is what the article says.) As long as you don't keep making silly insertions which cause the same information to be repeated in the same sentence, I don't think there will be any problems with this article.--] (]) 16:07, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
::::Polish-born is not the same as 'born in Poland', as hundreds of the Vietnamese who were born in Warsaw can tell you. Sawoniuk was born in Poland and was Polish-born, no matter how much some people wish he wasn't. This is what the source you have deleted makes clear, although that is not why you deleted it (just to make clear that I WP:AGF). ] (]) 16:33, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
:::::So what do you think the newspaper meant by "Polish-born"? I don't see anything in the context to indicate it means anything other than "born in Poland", which is how past discussion has shown most people understand that phrase.--] (]) 16:58, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
::::::Please do not ask me to interpret what sources are trying to say. We use what sources say, not what we think they mean. The phrase "Polish-born" is precisely what the source says, which is why I put it into the article. The source does not say "born in Poland". Please take care not to infer meaning which sources do not contain. ] (]) 17:40, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
Varsovian please provide a reliable source which says that "Sawoniuk is purely Polish", "more Polish than Chopin" and "if he (the war criminal Sawoniuk) isn't Polish, neither is Chopin". If you fail to do so I will report you. ] 17:24, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
:Please provide a reliable source which describes Sawoniuk as anything other than Polish. There are many sources which describe Chopin as "Polish-French". If being born in Poland to a Polish mother doesn't make Sawoniuk Polish (even though he also fought for Poland in the Polish army and served Poland in the Polish police), what makes Chopin (born in Poland to a Polish mother but didn't fight for Poland and I'm not aware that he served Poland in any civil service role) Polish? As for reports, might you be trying to distract attention from yet another warning you this week received despite being under a DIRWIGEN official caution? ] (]) 17:48, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

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Dividing Warszawa Główna railway station into two or three articles

Hi, I wrote more in detail about my proposal in the article talk page, but in short, the name Warszawa Główna railway station throughout history was used fir three different stations, one in the 1930s/1940s, one in 1940s–1990s, and current one built in 2021. As such, I want to propose to creating separate articles for them.Artemis Andromeda (talk) 01:01, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Renaming the Alliance of Democrats (Poland) to Democratic Party (Poland)

Hi, I belive that the Alliance of Democrats (Poland) should be renamed to the "Democratic Party (Poland)". I think it would be a better translation of the name, and that current translation is wrong. Firstly, "alliance" means "sojusz", and not "stronictwo", which would be just "party". Word stronictwo, literally means 'a side of something', or 'a part of something', eg, a party. Futhermore, Polish title is in adjective form, so even "Democratic Alliance" would be more correct in this case. As such, "Alliance of Democrats" would rather be translation of "Sojusz Domokratów", than "Stronictwo Demokratyczne. What do you think? Artemis Andromeda (talk) 20:07, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Any people intrested in writing about WW2 in Warsaw, who would like to collaborate?

Hi, I like writing Warsaw-related articles, such as about its neighbourhoods and buildings. But, I'm not the best when it comes to writing about WW2, and it's kinda a big topic when it comes to this city. So, I thought maybe there would be people with better expertise on the WW2 in Warsaw, who would like to collaborate with me. For example, I would write most of the article about some neighbourhood, and you would help me cover the revenant WW2 events in the history section etc? Idk, I just thought I could try to ask here. Feel free to write to me if you are interested :) Artemis Andromeda (talk) 21:13, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Stadion Miejski (Białystok)#Requested move 5 November 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Stadion Miejski (Białystok)#Requested move 5 November 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. —usernamekiran (talk) 21:31, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Robots of Stanisław Lem

Please speak at Talk:Stanisław Lem and robots#Requested move 11 January 2025 --Altenmann >talk 12:03, 11 January 2025 (UTC)

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