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Revision as of 23:00, 14 March 2010 editFactomancer (talk | contribs)3,045 edits →Merge with Israeli settlements, Palestinians, and human rights← Previous edit Latest revision as of 12:20, 29 December 2024 edit undoLowercase sigmabot III (talk | contribs)Bots, Template editors2,309,086 editsm Archiving 2 discussion(s) to Talk:Israeli settlement/Archive 13) (bot 
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== Boldishness ==

I moved everything from the 'Legal background' into new article ']'. It's a copy/paste apart from a couple of named ref fixes. I added a temporary lead without attempting to comply with ] and copied it into this article for the time being. If anyone would like to write a proper lead for the new article and copy it over here please go ahead. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - ''']'''</small> 15:23, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
:..and having re-read what I put in the lead for the split off article and copied over here, apparently I don't think that the Golan Heights exists. This is why I shouldn't write leads. Someone might like to fix that. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">''']''' - ''']'''</small> 07:36, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

== New Section needed ==

I propose to add a new section called "International reaction to settlement"
As of now there is lott of data indicating several countries take on the Israeli settlment.
USA - U.S. slams Israel over new settlement activities
China - China criticizes new Israeli move on settlements
Britian - Britain: Israeli settlements are 'illegal' and 'obstacle' to peace
Egypt - Egypt criticizes Israel's settlement expansion
Brazil - Brazil leader urges freeze on Israeli settlements <small><span class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 21:32, 3 March 2010 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Total population of Settlements ==

Not sure what the correct total population of Israeli settlements is, but currently the article gives it as 400,000 in the West Bank and 280,000 in East Jerusalem (so a total of 680,000), but the BBC article footnoted as the source for this statement talks about a total of 500,000 so I think the figure needs looking at again <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 10:59, 11 March 2010 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

⚫ == Violence ==

Not sure who put the tag on violence, but I have moved it to cover the whole section (Originally it was just covering Palestinians against settlers). The reason for this is the different sections under violence are in completely different styles and dont seem to balance (ie The Settlers section describes specific deaths and their circumstances whereas the Palestinian section is general without specific examples). As the writing style can evoke emotions (especially where specifics are used), the style should be the same in both sections.
] (]) 11:43, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

: Hi, Clovis. I see what you are talking about. I removed a duplicate section on Settler Violence from another part of this article and then copied it over to the section you are talking about since the language seems more neutral and factual.
: What do you think? ] (]) 11:54, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

== Settler as a pejorative ==


The way this article is framed is arguable slanted. It misrepresents the reality as the "settler" status is clearly disputed. In other words, biased language is not help towards NPOV.


== Haaretz article: "Secret 1970 document confirms first West Bank settlements built on a lie." ==
The "Palestinian violence against Israeli settlers" should be rewritten and allow a more comprehensive, fact-based section. "Background" contains incorrect casualty stats.


Haaretz - Yotam Berger - , 28 July 2016. <!-- Template:Unsigned --><span class="autosigned" style="font-size:85%;">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) </span>
The "settler violence against Palestinians" is disproportionate and needs more RS.


== Security isn't a "pretext" ==
Statements such as this are quite libelous: "Olive farming is a major industry and employer in the Palestinian West Bank and olive trees are a common target of settler violence."


Under '''4.2 Settlement Policy''', the article reads "The government abrogated the prohibition from purchasing occupied land by Israelis; the "Drobles Plan", a plan for large-scale settlement in the West Bank meant to prevent a Palestinian state under the pretext of security became the framework for its policy."
There are over 400,000 Jewish residents of the West Bank. No doubt violence has occurred but I cannot find any documents proving olive trees are a "common target" of settler violence. It gives the false impression that olive trees are under attack.


The dictionary definition of pretext is ''something that is put forward to conceal a true purpose or object; an ostensible reason; excuse''.
MORE NPOV: {{quotation|The Israelis built a system of bypass roads that allowed settlers to travel between Israel and the different settlements in relative safety, avoiding ambushes by Palestinians. These roads often encroached upon inhabited Palestinian areas, and areas under cultivation. Many dunam of olive trees, the means of livelihood of Palestinians were destroyed to build the roads. to allow expansion of settlements in populated areas, by settler vandalism, and in some cases, because the olive trees had served as cover for Palestinian terrorists.}}


The provided citation doesn't support the copy in the wiki article. The document doesn't say that security was a pretext. The document says security is one of several reasons to develop the settlements. The cited article reads, "The following are the principles which guided the plan: 1. Settlement throughout the entire Land of Israel is for security and by right, A strip of settlements at strategic sites enhances both internal and external security alike, as well as making concrete and realizing our right to Eretz Israel..."
The overwhelming majority of violence between the Jewish residents and Arab residents of the WB is sourced from the Palestinian camp, not the settlements. ~50 Palestinians have been killed by Israeli settlers over the past 10 years, and this was in the context of the 2nd intifada where palestinian attacks were quite frequent.


So the article isn't even denying that it assumes that the Israelis have some sort of biblical or historical right to Israel, BUT it also argues that the settlements would improve security.
http://www.mideastweb.org/map_israel_settlements.htm


There is also the matter that the same section of this article implies that these cited documents were written by representatives of the Israeli government; they were not, they were written by departments of the World Zionist Organization which is an NGO and not directed by the Israeli government. It was essentially written by a think tank advocating a certain perspective but the article casts it as from the central government planning office. <!-- Template:Unsigned IP --><small class="autosigned">—&nbsp;Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) </small>
Also, is it just me or is this article really, really huge? ] (]) 15:10, 11 March 2010 (UTC)


⚫ == ICJ ==
: It would make it easier to answer your questions if you split your issues with this article up, perhaps even in to separate sections, instead of having one large block of text to reply to. ] (]) 12:25, 14 March 2010 (UTC)


The findings of the ICJ should be treated factually and not on a POV and attribution basis. I.e. I am in favor of the settlements being simply called illegal in the opening sentence, as described by every major RS. ] (]) 09:34, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
== Merge with ] ==


:Given that now have an authoritative statement of the law on this matter, it should be straightforward to find RS reporting of same without caveats, it really doesn't matter any more whether "Israel disputes this" other than as historical background, imo this boilerplate should be removed from articles. There was a consensus about it somewhere but I forget where, perhaps it needs revisiting now. ] (]) 09:40, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
The Israeli settlements, Palestinians, and human rights page is a blatant POV fork and seems more like a sandbox of non-neutral POV by Factsontheground. Until recently, it was a legitimate redirect, by the editor removed that and recreated the duplicate material and to add more POV. --] (]) 20:10, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
:I agree. Most of the information in that article is simply a regurgitation of content from this article. Israel articles are bloated enough as it is. ] (]) 12:02, 14 March 2010 (UTC) ::Agreed; it should be Israel's arguments were refuted, rather than the classical and boring "Israel disputes this", which to me always sounded like writing on ]: "The earth is round, but flat earthers dispute this." ] (]) 09:56, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
:::OK, existing consensus ] (thanks to {{Re|Sean.hoyland}} for the link).
:::It would seem that the situation has changed, even before the ICJ opinion, the US accepts (once again, post Trump) that the settlements are illegal so together with the opinion, that seems sufficient to reopen the question with a view to removing the "Israel disputes this" part and possibly rewording the rest. ] (]) 11:08, 23 July 2024 (UTC)


== Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 28 July 2024 ==
:Sorry, Shuki, but you seem to have a misunderstanding of what a so-called "]" is. One of the main features of a POV fork is that they are "deliberately created to avoid neutral point of view guidelines". ] is simply a summary style article created as an extension of the eponymous section in this, the parent article.


{{Edit extended-protected|Israeli settlement|answered=yes}}
: ] describes it as an example of what is ''not'' a POV fork: <blockquote>Sometimes, when an article gets long (see Misplaced Pages:Article size), a section of the article is made into its own article, and the handling of the subject in the main article is condensed to a brief summary. This is completely normal Misplaced Pages procedure. The new article is sometimes called a "spinout" or "spinoff" of the main article; Misplaced Pages:Summary style explains the technique.</blockquote>
I suggest that the latest 2023 west bank access restrictions map from OCHA be added. Link provided below:
: The reason ] was created was to have a place to add extra material now that this article has reached ~90kb in size. It was NOT an exercise in POV-forking. ] (]) 12:35, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
https://www.ochaopt.org/content/west-bank-access-restrictions-may-2023 ] (]) 18:59, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
:] '''Not done:'''<!-- Template:EEp --> It's a good map, but unfortunately it's . <span style="white-space:nowrap"><span style="font-family:monospace">'''<nowiki>''']<nowiki>]]'''</nowiki>'''</span> (] • ])</span> 01:07, 4 August 2024 (UTC)
::{{re|CanonNi}} https://commons.wikimedia.org/Template:PD-UN-map ] (]) 10:36, 4 August 2024 (UTC)


== create page: ] ==
::Whether it was deliberate or not is irrelevant. Most of the information of the article could be easily merged into this one and they argument to keep it is clearly very weak. There already is too Israel articles and I can't see the justification for an essay-based topic. "Israel, the settlements, and the Palestinians" is not a straight definition like "Israeli settlements." It is vulnerable to user bias. Similar to Israel, the Palestinians, and the United Nations. Personally I think that article should go as well. ] (]) 18:41, 14 March 2010 (UTC)


# unofficial
:::Merging is not an option, since as you yourself noted above, this article is already too big. ] (]) 23:00, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
# official
] (]) 02:55, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 12:20, 29 December 2024

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Haaretz article: "Secret 1970 document confirms first West Bank settlements built on a lie."

Haaretz - Yotam Berger - Secret 1970 document confirms first West Bank settlements built on a lie, 28 July 2016. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ZScarpia (talk • contribs)

Security isn't a "pretext"

Under 4.2 Settlement Policy, the article reads "The government abrogated the prohibition from purchasing occupied land by Israelis; the "Drobles Plan", a plan for large-scale settlement in the West Bank meant to prevent a Palestinian state under the pretext of security became the framework for its policy."

The dictionary definition of pretext is something that is put forward to conceal a true purpose or object; an ostensible reason; excuse.

The provided citation doesn't support the copy in the wiki article. The document doesn't say that security was a pretext. The document says security is one of several reasons to develop the settlements. The cited article reads, "The following are the principles which guided the plan: 1. Settlement throughout the entire Land of Israel is for security and by right, A strip of settlements at strategic sites enhances both internal and external security alike, as well as making concrete and realizing our right to Eretz Israel..."

So the article isn't even denying that it assumes that the Israelis have some sort of biblical or historical right to Israel, BUT it also argues that the settlements would improve security.

There is also the matter that the same section of this article implies that these cited documents were written by representatives of the Israeli government; they were not, they were written by departments of the World Zionist Organization which is an NGO and not directed by the Israeli government. It was essentially written by a think tank advocating a certain perspective but the article casts it as from the central government planning office. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.54.105.157 (talk)

ICJ

The findings of the ICJ should be treated factually and not on a POV and attribution basis. I.e. I am in favor of the settlements being simply called illegal in the opening sentence, as described by every major RS. Makeandtoss (talk) 09:34, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

Given that now have an authoritative statement of the law on this matter, it should be straightforward to find RS reporting of same without caveats, it really doesn't matter any more whether "Israel disputes this" other than as historical background, imo this boilerplate should be removed from articles. There was a consensus about it somewhere but I forget where, perhaps it needs revisiting now. Selfstudier (talk) 09:40, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
Agreed; it should be Israel's arguments were refuted, rather than the classical and boring "Israel disputes this", which to me always sounded like writing on Earth: "The earth is round, but flat earthers dispute this." Makeandtoss (talk) 09:56, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
OK, existing consensus Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration/Current Article Issues/Archive. Legality of Israeli settlements (thanks to @Sean.hoyland: for the link).
It would seem that the situation has changed, even before the ICJ opinion, the US accepts (once again, post Trump) that the settlements are illegal so together with the opinion, that seems sufficient to reopen the question with a view to removing the "Israel disputes this" part and possibly rewording the rest. Selfstudier (talk) 11:08, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 28 July 2024

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

I suggest that the latest 2023 west bank access restrictions map from OCHA be added. Link provided below: https://www.ochaopt.org/content/west-bank-access-restrictions-may-2023 TheTrackRecord (talk) 18:59, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: It's a good map, but unfortunately it's copyrighted. ''']''' (talk • contribs) 01:07, 4 August 2024 (UTC)
@CanonNi: https://commons.wikimedia.org/Template:PD-UN-map Selfstudier (talk) 10:36, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

create page: Israelification of land

  1. unofficial
  2. official

2A02:2149:8B02:4F00:51D1:3E49:2755:6F87 (talk) 02:55, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

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