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| * ] <small>(August 2005–July 2009)</small> | |||
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| <!--NOTICE: before anyone suggests, again, that this be moved, please read the discussion, especially noclador's comments under Meran, a compromise; and then see if you can find something more useful to do. Thanks. --> | <!--NOTICE: before anyone suggests, again, that this be moved, please read the discussion, especially noclador's comments under Meran, a compromise; and then see if you can find something more useful to do. Thanks. --> | ||
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| That move would also affect the other ]. Both German and Italian are official languages in ]. This bilingual naming system looks like it has been the result of an edit war, I don't know. It would be a lot easier if there would be common English names for these towns, like ]. For a similar situation see the municipalities in the ] of Belgium, they're officially bilingual French/Dutch, but apparently all the articles are at the French names. I'm not saying that's right or wrong, I guess it looks more professional than Meran-Merano etc. ] 16:08, 17 September 2005 (UTC) | That move would also affect the other ]. Both German and Italian are official languages in ]. This bilingual naming system looks like it has been the result of an edit war, I don't know. It would be a lot easier if there would be common English names for these towns, like ]. For a similar situation see the municipalities in the ] of Belgium, they're officially bilingual French/Dutch, but apparently all the articles are at the French names. I'm not saying that's right or wrong, I guess it looks more professional than Meran-Merano etc. ] 16:08, 17 September 2005 (UTC) | ||
| :I was not aware that the other South Tyrolian localities had the same naming style. IMO, simply Merano is best for the article name, but I don't want to cause an edit war. The current system has led to some interesting names, like ]. ] 17:35, 17 September 2005 (UTC) | :I was not aware that the other South Tyrolian localities had the same naming style. IMO, simply Merano is best for the article name, but I don't want to cause an edit war. The current system has led to some interesting names, like ]. ] 17:35, 17 September 2005 (UTC) | ||
| ::I would also say keep the current double-name format, we do not want to start an editing war over language, Misplaced Pages is not the place for such things. ] 09:06, 8 November 2005 (UTC) | ::I would also say keep the current double-name format, we do not want to start an editing war over language, Misplaced Pages is not the place for such things. ] 09:06, 8 November 2005 (UTC) | ||
| :::Just call it Meran, most South Tirolers would call it that. Plus German is an official language of South Tyrol. | :::Just call it Meran, most South Tirolers would call it that. Plus German is an official language of South Tyrol. | ||
| The statements found in this article regarding language use in that part of Tyrol formerly belonging to Austria are not correct. | The statements found in this article regarding language use in that part of Tyrol formerly belonging to Austria are not correct. | ||
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| What about correcting the language statements in the Meran article? | What about correcting the language statements in the Meran article? | ||
| ] 17:33, 20 February 2006 (UTC) | ] 17:33, 20 February 2006 (UTC) | ||
| The name is Merano, please don't erase.Keep the righ name <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 15:08, 26 November 2009 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
| ==Requested moves to Merano and Merano-Meran== | |||
| <div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 2em 0 0 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:polltop --> | |||
| :''The following discussion is an archived debate of the {{{type|proposal}}}. <font color="red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</font> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. '' | |||
| Please keep the right name, don't change the right name MERANO to the wrong name Meran. Please no more vandalism. Stop to the racism and austrian nationalism! <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 18:13, 26 November 2009 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
| {{{result|The result of the debate was}}} '''no move'''. There is clearly large opposition to both of the proposed moves. —<span style="background-color:orange;"> ] </span><span style="background-color:blue; color:orange"> (]) </span> 19:50, 6 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ===Requested move to Merano=== | |||
| ] → ] – See also the survey at ]. There is a majority for the Italian name "Merano", but "Meran" also has its merits. Both are currently redirects with edit history. ] 09:53, 29 September 2006 (UTC) ] 09:53, 29 September 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ====Survey==== | |||
| Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki> | |||
| == July 2010 == | |||
| * '''Oppose''': double names are the norm in South Tyrol.--] 11:20, 29 September 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::Double names cause unnecessary confusion, see the discussion at ] (I guess you missed that one?). There's a majority against double names (including your late vote 62% against double names). No serious encyclopedia has these bilingual article titles, the place for (relevant) alternative names is in the first line of the article. ] 14:28, 29 September 2006 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Oppose''' I totally oppose any "Merano" form. Considering the majority of the population is German-speaking, this is really not necessary. ] 12:34, 29 September 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::It's a very small majority (German:Italian:Ladin=51.5:48.0:0.5), but you're right about that. However, "Meran" would be my second choice, because "Merano" is (2-3 times) more used in English.] 19:09, 1 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Support''' as nominator. ] 14:28, 29 September 2006 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' "Europe - In absence of a common English name, the current local name of the city should be used." (from ]); this applies to all Southtyrolean cities, which should be all Italian.--] 12:33, 30 September 2006 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support'''. As per agreement on ]. ]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 14:19, 1 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Oppose''': I fully agree width Panarjedde (first message in this threat). ] 07:12, 2 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support'''. It's one or the other, not both. - <span style="border:1px solid blue;padding:1px;">]</span> 07:36, 2 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' The English usage here is discussed at ]; I think the evidence is clear that ] is more common. ] would also be acceptable, but not preferred; the hyphenated name is against policy, and does not settle arguments over which goes first. ] 19:07, 2 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' (both ] and ] are acceptable to me in this case, but not the hyphenated names). ] 08:39, 3 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Oppose''' While I agree that double names are horrible to behold (not to mention that neither Québec nor Belgian cities needed such a solution), I definitely think Meran should be preferred. As mentioned, there's a tradition of English usage dating as back as 1924 for the Meran variation in the Slav Defence to the Queen's Gambit, counting scores of books and probably hundreds of articles. And living usage should be a determining factor in naming an encyclopedic entry - at least it was in Wiki, last time I checked. --] 11:40, 3 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| *'''strongly Oppose''' AK ]--] 11:27, 6 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| Südtirol is not Italy! Even though it belongs (currently) to Italy the language is predominantly German and not Italian. | |||
| ====Discussion==== | |||
| Hence, I don't think the Italian name should be used in the English wikipedia. | |||
| Add any additional comments | |||
| Btw. The name Merano was invented by the Italian fascists in the 1920s. | |||
| --] (]) 13:50, 15 July 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :* you are ignorant and a liar. i'm impressed noclador can at least set you straight on this utterly out of control German mentality. <span style="font-size: smaller;" class="autosigned">—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 05:10, 31 January 2011 (UTC)</span><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot--> | |||
| Copied from ]: | |||
| :: 1) Many names were invented by Ettore Tolomei form 1906 onwards and in 1927 then taken over by the fascist authorities, HOWEVER Merano was not - it is along with other names of the major cities a historic name and was in use at a far earlier time, then even Tolomeis birth. 2) Misplaced Pages naming convention states to use the most common name in ''English'' which is in fact Merano 3) therefore no change is required and no change will be done. ] (]) 14:38, 15 July 2010 (UTC) | |||
| *Google: 858,000 English hits for ; 326,000 for . ] appears also to be ambiguous with Hotel Meran in Prague, the Meran variation of the ] in chess, and a Kurdish proper name. Two of these are presumably named after Meran, but one of them testifies to ''Czech'' usage, not English. I see no correspionding confusion for ]. | |||
| *Linguistic affiliation: 51% German by the census. | |||
| *Survey: no specific comments on the subject, so far. | |||
| :Well if you want to go by linguistic affiliation, this one would have to be at "Meran" if it's 51% German speaking. Otherwise this whole new policy is going to be full of holes and discrepancies. ] 19:59, 25 September 2006 (UTC) | |||
| == Solution for naming problem == | |||
| ** I suggest using Merano only in this case, because is the second biggest city in South Tyrol and one of the few well known in other parts of Italy. --] 07:25, 19 September 2006 (UTC) | |||
| **I tend to agree; this is a case where English usage can be shown. ] 15:09, 19 September 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :Why should it be Merano if the majority is German-speaking? ] 20:48, 21 September 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::Because it seems to be the English language name for the city. In the same way, we say ] and ], not Praha or Wien. --]<sup><small>]</small></sup> 20:52, 21 September 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::The "English" language name? You mean the Italian probably. ] 19:59, 25 September 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I believe that Asterion means, and I know I do, the English name, the name commonly used in English prose; just as the English name of Rome is Rome and the English name of Paris is Paris. ] 21:38, 25 September 2006 (UTC) | |||
| 1. an article about a south tyrolian village should be named like the majority of its population calls it, and the other language just in italics.. what would lead to for example: Bolzano, Salorno, Bruneck, Brixen, Meran | |||
| this would be the most evident solution | |||
| or 2. the article should be named with both the german and italian names, and which one first, depending on how its called by the majority of its inhabitants but not with hyphen in between but with slash.. what would lead to Meran / Merano, Bruneck / Brunico Bolzano / Bozen | |||
| i dont understand why not everyone comes to this solution when thinking about it | |||
| ===Requested move to Merano-Meran=== | |||
| of course it should be named either how its called by the majority of its inhabitants, or by both names, with the more used first... so why Merano? | |||
| ] → ] – In the Province of Bolzano/Bozen, being that it is Italian-German, every town is listed with both names. This is similar to French Canada. Any road sign will show Bolzano-Bozen. It is Italy, so it is Italian name-German name. It is just an order of names, it doesn't mean either is less! But we should be correct, above all. All the towns in Bolzano/Bozen are listed this way, and should be listed this way. thanks ] 04:07, 3 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ] (]) 03:30, 23 August 2009 (UTC) | |||
| ====Survey==== | |||
| Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki> | |||
| :Because this is the version of the Wikipdia in the English language and the first rule we follow is to give a place the name most commonly used in contemporary English writing, where that exists. (See ]). So Florence, rather than Firenze, and Vienna rather than Wien. I say contemporary English because we don’t call Trento Trent (despite the famous congress) or Livorno Leghorn. (Obviously this leaves scope for disagreement: should Apulia be moved to Puglia, or Lazio moved to Latium? That can be argued, and there will never be 100% agreement: personally I would choose Puglia, Lazio, Leghorn and Trent.) In the case of South Tyrol/Alto Adige/Südtirol/, previous (and horrifically protracted) discussions have determined that Bozen and Meran are most commonly called Bolzano and Merano in modern English, so we use those. Most (perhaps all) of the other places in South Tyrol don’t have any particularly strong bias when writing in English, and we have decided to use the name used by the majority of the inhabitants. (German, or occasionally Ladin. (Yes I know Bolzano is mostly Italophone, but we have already named that on the basis of English usage!)) We ''could'' have decided to use slashed names, or to have used the Italian names because they are all in Italy, but local majority language seemed to be the best. Naming disputes get absurdly heated, I am afraid, but I hope that this explanation of the current convention helps!] (]) 13:42, 23 August 2009 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Strongly oppose''' I see no reason to abandon English usage, which uses ''Meran'' and ''Merano'', but not this pointless hyphenation. If this had any merit, it would be to satisfy both sides, and provide a stable name. But it plainly doesn't. ] 19:01, 3 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' "Europe - In absence of a common English name, the current local name of the city should be used." (from ]); this applies to all Southtyrolean cities, which should be all Italian.--] 19:50, 3 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Strongly oppose''' No serious encyclopedia has double names for article titles, because it's ambiguous and confusing. Francophone Canada is a nice example: I don't know of one single place in Canada that has a bilingual title here (or in any encyclopedia). ] 19:56, 3 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose'''. It's Bolzano or Bozen, not both. See ] and ] for similar cases and save hyphens for cities that actually use them like ]. (And why couldn't this have waited a couple of days until the above RM was concluded?) - <span style="border:1px solid blue;padding:1px;">]</span> 19:18, 4 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''': let it where it is (Oppose also Superluca who seems to be an Italian nationalist and Markussep and AjaxSmack who dont know the situation in Meran-Merano)--] 11:25, 6 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :Thanks (also for mispelling my nickname). Maybe you can read the last paragraph of ] ("The way!") and learn to be neutral.--] 12:47, 6 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::I referred to the commune statute (here: ) from the official commune site. In '''no''' place is "Meran-Merano" or "Merano-Meran" used. - <span style="border:1px solid blue;padding:1px;">]</span> 16:49, 6 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| == Name - the official position == | |||
| ====Discussion==== | |||
| Add any additional comments | |||
| I took the initiative to contact the city, and their reply is availible at ]. Obviously the official name in english is '''Merano-Meran''', and I think we can safely move it there without any opposition. ]] 15:45, 12 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
| Look at the Merano-Meran city website. See how nicely they can put the German and Italian on each side, actually alternating the content. Seems the water there makes people a bit more relaxed than on WP. LOL. ] 09:23, 3 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :No, sorry, I don't think it works that way. That would be very eccentric, so ''don't move'' it to this name as it would obviously be reverted and move wars are heavily frowned upon. | |||
| :If we asked cities how they ''want'' to be called in English we would get all sorts of reasonable answers that would be inconsistent with each other (i.e. article titles would look as if there was no clear underlying principle, i.e. no naming convention), and in some cases also unreasonable answers. ] might insist on being called "Lutherstadt Wittenberg" or "Luther Town Wittenberg". "Moscow" might insist on being called "Moskva" or even "Москва". It just doesn't work that way. Note also that Rome is under ] not Roma, Vienna is under ] not Wien, Venice under ] not Venezia. (It's the little villages that we have to put under their local names because there is no English name. Merano, while rather small, does have an English name due to its location. Generations of English travellers have passed through it on their way to Italy.) | |||
| :Both "Merano" and "Meran" are acceptable names as far as I am concerned. But more English speakers call it "Merano" than "Meran", and more local people call it "Meran" than "Merano". What the English speakers do is of course more relevant for the ''English'' language Misplaced Pages, so Merano is the correct solution. The compound name is silly, eccentric and not even acceptable. I guess it's what the city does in leaflets for tourists, but it's not the kind of thing that we do here. ] ] 16:03, 12 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::A lot of people have claimed that Merano is the more used name in English, but I've never seen a word of proof... ]] 19:03, 12 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :::E.g. if I search in the archive of Google News for ''"Meran" Italy'' I get 0 hits. If I change it to ''"Merano" Italy'' I get 14. (I am using ''Italy'' to get only English results. You might want to try other words instead. ''Meran'' or ''Merano'' must be in quotes; otherwise we get 14 hits in both cases because Google "knows" it's the same city. ] ] 20:42, 12 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I'm not really convinced: Google searches aren't really a fiable source. However the city does use the German version as the default in its website: I think that shows a clear preference for the international community. ]] 19:43, 14 March 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :We've tried using double names; the result has always been a spate of move requests to change the order of the names. There's an entry in ] about Bolzano-Bozen. ] <small>]</small> 16:07, 9 September 2010 (UTC) | |||
| :: to sum up 5-6 years of debate: it's Merano in English. EOD! ] (]) 04:02, 11 September 2010 (UTC) | |||
| I think the name of this article should be Meran, not Merano. The majority of the population speaks German and we have established the rule to name the cities after the language spoken by the majority. ] (]) 20:15, 2 July 2013 (UTC) | |||
| http://www.comune.merano.bz.it/ | |||
| :''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <font color="red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</font> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.</div><!-- Template:pollbottom --> | |||
| :Gryffindor, that rule applies to places with no common name in English. The majority in ] call it "Roma", the majority in ] call it "München", the majority in ] call it "Firenze" and so on. As is clear from the discussions in the archives, Merano has been established English usage for a very long time.] (]) 14:23, 6 July 2013 (UTC) | |||
| <div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 2em 0 0 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:polltop --> | |||
| ::For how long a time? I. e., was it due to the political changes following to the Second World War (which language-wise should be considered reversed by the creation of an autonomous province with the primary langague German)? Or wasn't it? | |||
| :''The following discussion is an archived debate of the {{{type|proposal}}}. <font color="red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</font> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. '' | |||
| ::If, of course, an Englishman would speak of Merano in the year 1913, then of course the article should remain at Merano.--] (]) 16:01, 1 December 2014 (UTC) | |||
| == Move request == | |||
| {{{result|The result of the debate was}}} '''move''' to Merano. There was really no consensus on Meran vs Merano, but basically no one wants the double name, so I had to choose. I read all of the discussion below, and there is no hint of agreemen anywhere. What really swayed me towards ] was two things: one vote for Meran and against Merano was by an anon whose only edit was to this page, making me believe it may be a single purpose "account", and the fact that this city is in fact in Italy, so no one can ''really'' object to it being called by the Italian name. —<span style="font: small-caps 14px times; color: red;">] (])</span> 01:38, 14 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ==Strawpoll for new name== | |||
| I know there has been a section on that, but let's request a move to ''Meran'' again. The city belongs to South Tyrol, and the language of the autonomous province of South Tyrol is German (despite its belonging to the state of Italy - just as Québec's language is French, despite its belonging to the state of Canada). This one here even happens to have a German-speaking majority. If I'm rightly informed the Ladin name is Meran too. I don't even see where there could be a possible discussion. - That is, unless "Merano" would be the established ''English'' name, as Cologne is for Köln. In that case: it's the English wikipedia. But while I don't really know, I don't think this is the case. And in that case: it's not the Italian wikipedia.--] (]) 15:55, 1 December 2014 (UTC) | |||
| Since the previous two requested move surveys failed, I propose a strawpoll for the new name. The current name of the article, "Meran-Merano", is a combination of the German name ("Meran") and the Italian name ("Merano"). This type of bilingual naming was found to be undesirable in a recent survey at ]. The four most plausible options are listed below, please cast your votes. ] 20:06, 8 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :There is mounting evidence that the name is "Meran", see English language usage from 1800 to 2000: https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Meran%2CMerano&year_start=1800&year_end=2000&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2CMeran%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2CMerano%3B%2Cc0 , and from 1950 to 2000: https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Meran%2CMerano&year_start=1950&year_end=2000&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2CMeran%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2CMerano%3B%2Cc0 . The article also has to be in line with the naming policy of majority-language. Unless someone can refute this evidence, this article will be moved shortly. ] (]) 08:51, 2 June 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::It seems quite obvious to me as well, that the current page name is not in line with our policies. There is no evidence that the city has an English name as such (if anything, Meran seems to be more rooted). In that case, ] suggests to go with the local linguistic majority. --] (]) 13:55, 4 June 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ===Survey=== | |||
| Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki> | |||
| '''Meran''' (4-2) | |||
| *'''Support''' (either this or Merano, I have no real preference). ] 20:06, 8 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose'''--] 07:49, 9 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' since majority is German-speaking and this would be in line with the new guidelines. ] 17:13, 9 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' going by language majority is sort of ridiculous. that means constant updating every year. It is Italy, list Italian first. ] 17:59, 9 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' like Gryffindor.] 17:45, 11 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' any single name. - <span style="border:1px solid blue;padding:1px;">]</span> 05:46, 12 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| *'''51.50% Support'''. I was going to suggest a coin flip instead, but if a fair principle was established, it should be followed to the end. Heck, some presidential elections were decided on less than that. ] 13:22, 13 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| '''Merano''' (4-2) | |||
| *'''Support'''. ] 20:06, 8 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' the only solution is to apply the naming conventions.--] 07:49, 9 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' ] 17:13, 9 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' single name, Italian city. ] 17:59, 9 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' ] 17:45, 11 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' any single name. - <span style="border:1px solid blue;padding:1px;">]</span> 05:46, 12 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| *'''48.50% Oppose''', see above. ] 13:22, 13 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| '''Meran-Merano''' (current name) (1-5) | |||
| *'''Oppose'''. ] 20:06, 8 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose'''--] 07:49, 9 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' ] 17:13, 9 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' worst solution. ] 17:59, 9 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' ] 17:45, 11 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' any double name. - <span style="border:1px solid blue;padding:1px;">]</span> 05:46, 12 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' any double name. ] 13:22, 13 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| '''Merano-Meran''' (0-6) | |||
| *'''Oppose'''. ] 20:06, 8 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose'''--] 07:49, 9 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' ] 17:13, 9 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' fine, no double names. ] 17:59, 9 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' ] 17:45, 11 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' any double name. - <span style="border:1px solid blue;padding:1px;">]</span> 05:46, 12 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Oppose''' any double name. ] 13:22, 13 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ===Discussion=== | |||
| Add any additional comments | |||
| Why are doing this page by page actually? Lets just discuss the naming convention globally, no? ] 18:01, 9 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :There ''is'' a perfectly fine rule for places in South Tyrol. Use the most commonly used name in English, and if there isn't any, take the local majority name. There's only 1 census every 10 years, so we wouldn't have to change so often. ] 18:06, 9 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::But Markussep, this is really going against what is used all over Misplaced Pages. People brought this up to me when I was hoping for double names. They mentioned Belgium, etc., etc. So we shouldn't go and start coming up with things like this. If we go with single names, it should simply be the Italian name with appropriate redirects and translations in the page (using again ] as an example). Anyway, we can argue about this until we turn blue, right? :-) That is why I'd like to get a neutral opinion, and why I really favour that offer of mediation. I'd like to see what someone says after looking at the data objectively. I noticed you speak German very well, you don't think that might influence you a bit? I realize I'm probably biased as well, considering my background. That is why I'm trying to really consider what is a proper solution, and even like better the idea of some neutral mediator. take care. ] 18:28, 9 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::Belgium, Switzerland, Finland etc. etc. are fine examples of how using the local majority language ''does'' work. But well, let's give Lar a try. ] 19:47, 9 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I'll look into those pages some later this evening. Anyway, yes, I'm rather relieved to have someone neutral just figure out a solution and be done with it. Uncool move on the mediation discussion, doesn't help move things forward. But whatever.. :P~~ ] 21:48, 9 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| Both names (Meran and Merano) are commonly used in English. Both are official names, as South Tyrol (of which Meran(o) is the second city) is officially bilingual. Google shows a slight preference (about 2-3x) for Merano in English usage. According to the , the majority of the population of the municipality of Meran considers itself German-speaking (51.5%, Italian-speaking 48.0%, Ladin-speaking 0.5%). ] 20:06, 8 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| Supparluca, I don't think the naming conventions lead us directly to choosing the Italian name. From WP:NC: "Generally, article naming should give priority to what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature." I don't see anything else that's applicable here. Meran and Merano are both frequently used in English, and both easily recognisable. Did I overlook something? ] 17:01, 9 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :From a logical point of view, the fact that Merano is in Italy means that the majority of English speakers would most easily recognise the Italian name. From a "just stick to the naming conventions to avoid any possible controversy or ambiguity/inconsistency" point of view (in my opinion, the best way), the naming conventions say that if there isn't a common English name, you should use the current local name. This solves the Southtyrolean issue, and nobody would think that the Italian/German/Ladin name was chosen because Italian/German/Ladin is better.--] 20:03, 9 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::"The fact that Merano is in Italy means that the majority of English speakers would most easily recognise the Italian name". That the shittiest (sorry for this word) argument you can give. Such a criterium is completely not objective. Can you represent all English speaking (or perhaps better: English reading) people of the world? ] 22:04, 9 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::Sadly, it seems that the majority of wikipedians can't be neutral on this topic, and tend to accuse immediately who tries to use the logic.--] 22:15, 9 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I am not accusing at all. I even apologised already for the s-word above. But now you are exactly making the point I wanted to make. When I see your username, I think you are Italian (or at least of Italian ancestry), so how can you be neutral on this topic? I just don't think that anyone can tell what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognise, the German or the Italian name. That's an opinion, predominantly based on being on one of the either sides in the Southtyrolean issue. But you are already stating it like a fact, and I think you should be careful with those terms. When you can prove that the majority of English speakers use Merano in stead of Meran, you have my blessing to change the name of the article. ] 22:29, 9 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Funny, immediately seeing your comment towards Supparluca, I said to myself, "hmm, I hope this is not a German, or we just further enforce this same boring pattern". Tada, I check out your user page: thanks for keeping things predictable at least! :P~~ Come on, that comment towards Supparluca was totally uncalled for. Actually Supparluca is correct technically. Misplaced Pages is supposed to use what is most commonly used in English. It doesn't matter at all what the locals do/think/feel. If you merely take the time to search Google (which is about the easiest way to show what the majority of English speakers use) for regions/provinces/cities of Italy, for lesser known towns they always use Italian, full stop. Anyway, this just makes me feel even more thankful that we have that fellow who is willing to mediate/decide all this for us -- if anything so these boring conversations can end. By the way, why don't <u>you</u> "<i>prove that the majority of English speakers use '''Meran''' in stead of '''Merano'''</i>". Either way is a challenge, putting the burden on one way or the other is utterly asinine. Not to mention that considering this is '''Italy''', one can easily argue the burden of proof weights on you. ciao bello! ] 03:55, 10 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::By the way, the "suppar" part of my nickname is a sort of German dialect pronunciation of "super". But you know, if you suggest to use the German names you are neutral, if you suggest to use the Italian names you are fascist (this is not an accusation on you)--] 04:43, 10 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Really, it was not my intention to insult anybody. Perhaps I should have written a larger comment initially, then my words would not have been explained like they have now. Or I should not have used the s-word, but I could not find a better alternative that quickly. My point is that too many Wikipedians are stating things like they are facts without having clear evidence; I really do not see the "logic" in this sentence. In the same way you could plead that it should be Meran, because Milano also becomes Milan in English, and Meran is probably easier to pronounce. But that is the my "logic", as a non-native English speaker, so I think that does not make a big difference. But hey, let's forget about it, I think I am not able to give my opinion correctly, probably due to my lack of the English language. I should write English more carefully, that is for sure. And about my German ancestry: yes, that is the 11th generation of my ancestors, living just across the Dutch-German border. So my "Germanity" is close to nil. But I am aware of the fact that I might not be neutral in this discussion and that is the reason why I will not vote. Take care you all, ] 07:50, 10 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::I apologize for my reaction, I was just tired to see how the people who try to give some logical reasoning in favour of the Italian names are immediately accused of suppressing the minorities, see for example ] and ], but in fact you didn't.--] 14:37, 10 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::When you search for Merano and Meran in Google by the way, there is 1) a lot of interference of other languages, even when searching for pages in English 2) obscurity about the number of articles of Italian or German origin, respectively. I can imagine that Germanspeaking people in South Tyrol tend to use Meran, and the Italianspeaking Merano. Let me make clear: I am not really pro-Meran or pro-Merano, I only think there should be proper base for renaming this article, as it will have consequences for all articles concerning South Tyrol. I might not be neutral, because I would tend to using the German name, because of the majority of people speaking the language and the fact that a lot of the Italian South Tyrolean names are pure fabrications. ] 12:15, 10 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| Why is this talkpage in reverse order of all others (regressing instead of progressing)? - <span style="border:1px solid blue;padding:1px;">]</span> 05:48, 12 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :I've fixed it. —<span style="font: small-caps 14px times; color: red;">] (])</span> 01:39, 14 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <font color="red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</font> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.</div><!-- Template:pollbottom --> | |||
| == the magority of Meran is german speeking == | |||
| I want to move Merano to ] or ] becose the magority of the popolation speecs German--] 09:17, 23 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :The majority of the population of ] is Italian but the city is named Rome and not Roma. That's because in wikipedia you use the English name, not the name used by the majority of the population.--] 09:20, 23 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :This was debated long and hard (along with all South Tyrol town articles), please see above. All double names were rejected, and Meran(o) was the closest call, and it was more or less a coin toss (slim German-speaking majority vs. slim prevalence of Merano in English usage). Please refrain from unilateral moves. ] 10:09, 23 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::I know and I'am very angry for this, but if You will create e convention about naming in South Tyrol You will have to listen to as South Tyrolean. We know the conventions in the RL and also the lows and the history, many italian users including ] d'ont know nothing. Meran has alltimes been Meran and from 1919 some people used also Merano. | |||
| ::There are no english Names for places in South Tyrol (only ] and ])--] | |||
| :::Thank you for your personal attack. I really appreciate that. And please don't turn around Duja's words as you did adding a ":" to his post.--] 17:42, 23 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::This is false, Merano was not a name invented in 1919. It was a name allowed to be used officially after centuries of Austrian control of the region. You need to learn to share my friend. ] 01:42, 29 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :The majority in question is 51%; I'm underwhelmed. Persuade me that English usage does not exist, and I will consider this. ] 19:36, 23 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::Witch one is English for You, Meran or Merano, I d'ont know, Meran is German and Merano ist Italian--] 11:23, 27 October 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::Ah, but is it really "German"? Or is it the name that is ''used'' in German. The basis of his name/word is in Latin (i.e. Roman). Also, are you aware what word is used in Ladin, Nones, etc.? ] 00:02, 1 November 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::Both are English names; ''Merano'' appears to be more common. Persuade me otherwise. ] 20:15, 1 November 2006 (UTC) | |||
| Heh heh, in Nones it is indeed 'Meran', take my word. :) I take the chance to reiterate that Meran has 80+ years of tradition of being called Meran in print and word in the chess community - see ] if you don't believe me. Also, the German speaking community there may enjoy only a slight majority, but it's a majority anyway: if there's a principle (granted, I'm not sure what Lar is thinking right now), why not follow it? Regards, ] 00:15, 1 November 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :Ok, I thought so. LOL My Nones is not so bad afterall. :-) This is a '''critical''' point that a lot of the "Germans" maybe do not realize. They are using these names like Meran and Brenner, claiming they are German, that we must protect and have German, etc., etc. But the irony of it all is these words are not really German, they are <u>used</u> in German. Much as Milan is not English, it is used in English. I think that Italian dialects (and lets not get into the debate of what a dialect is) such as Nones, Ladin, etc. are almost like an older form of Romance language, something a bit closer to Latin. Italian has "evolved" to have many vowels at the end of words now; Nones/Ladin/etc. do not. The most hilarious thing is that because modern Italian has put vowels at the end of names, it is being used as an excuse that "Italy" has somehow tossed away its historical ties to these places? Now what happens is that as time went by Meran had the "o" added to Italianize it. But it was not a cultural Italianization, it was a LINGUAL one. The origins of the names of Brennero and Merano are from Latin and from the Romans. The names Brenner and Meran are in fact Italian names as well, not in the strict sense of the modern Italian language, but definitely culturally. Anyway, I'm not making this discussion to make claims for the flag of Italy, or who ever, I just find it all very interesting. ], don't kill be for going off topic now. But in the Val di Non (itself with no vowel!) we have Casez, Cles, Dambel, etc. without vowels. Then there are towns like Coredo, Fondo, Romeno, Sarnonico. In Nones is Fondo just Fond? I seem to remember Sarnonico is Sarnonic? ] 18:30, 1 November 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :One more item, with respect to what to call it. Why I don't like using this majority rule, is you still don't know what people really call it. In Trentino-Alto Adige, if many people are speaking their Italian dialects, well then BY FAR everyone is saying Meran (for example) in their daily language. Same with the other cities throughout the region. But how can you really quantify this? With census data -- no. The thing is above all we are supposed to use English words, right? I will argue there are no translations for any of these towns in English, and that by far the references you find just show the Italian names, Bolzano, Trento, Fondo, Merano, etc. I know my friend Fantasy hates to hear this, but yes, "because they are in Italy". :-) But I think it is very fair to say that no one is trying to erase the older forms of the names like Meran, Bolzan, Bulsan (or the German Bozen). To me all these names are important.. because they ARE Italian.. and they are German used as well. | |||
| ::Your ideas about the etymology of place names are interesting, but I would like to see some proof. I agree that some names apparently have a Latin/Romance root (Meran, Bolzano, Sexten), but, so have many common words in German (Keller, Zimmer), and many place names in South Tyrol are obviously German, like Niederdorf, Mühlwald, Brenner. You're not going to claim that they're Austrian translations of original Italian or Latin names, are you? Also, something interesting from italian wikipedia: "Gli italiani di Bolzano non possiedono un proprio dialetto regionale anche se nella lingua italiana parlata a Bolzano esiste un substrato veneto-trentino. Molti parlano l'idioma della regione d'origine (soprattutto il veneto e il trentino)." I guess it means that there is not really a local Italian dialect in Bolzano, but since many of the Italians who moved there after WW1 were from Veneto and Trentino, this influences the Italian spoken in Bolzano. I think what you're writing about leaving out the final vowel in local dialect etc. really applies to (some areas of) Trentino, not South Tyrol (except the Ladin valleys). ] 19:19, 1 November 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::I'm not really trying to derive the specific origin of the words, I'm just saying that a lot of these names we are talking about are in fact "Italian". I just thought that point was a bit ironic. Funny the ones you mentioned as obvious. The first two, yes, definitely agree with you. But Brenner is just as Meran, a Latin-based name. The local Italian dialects will also call it Brenner. It was named by the Romans afterall; after the local tribe they called the Brennii (shows this also right here on Misplaced Pages). Also, remember again that the local people and dialects spoken here originally were the languages like Ladin, Nones, etc. The "Germans" came in afterwards and ''Germanized'' this region, in particular the Province of Bolzano/Bozen particularly. Then some "Italians" came in again. Above all, there is a large percentage of the '''people''' that have just been along for the ride. Someone may claim they are "German", where in fact they were likely Germanized a couple centuries ago. Is this bad or good, wrong or right? No, it is just the history of the region, and maybe should get it into a few more people to share. Just my thoughts. :-) ] 21:25, 1 November 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :Taalo, your reasoning goes totally against ]. The Latin words had the endings, they were kept in Italian, but dropped in Ladin. For example: Latin: ''mundus'', Italian: ''mondo'', Ladin: ''monn''. Latin: ''filius'', Italian: ''figlio'', Ladin: ''fi''. Latin: ''osteum'', Italian: ''osso'', Ladin: ''os''. ] <sup><font size="-2">]</font></sup> 19:54, 1 November 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::Hey, I am no expert on languages. I was making a discussion only as a novice, hence having to ask my neighbor what the words were in Nones. My main point, if you look back, was just that because the <u>vowels</u> are not there, does not mean it is not Italian. Your own examples help show this! Anyway, the view I was putting forth was only that the names of the cities, such as Meran, are "Italian" in fact. regards. ] 21:15, 1 November 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::By the way, since apparently you may know this: Do you know for certain the progression wasn't ''osteum'' => ''os'' => ''osso''? It wasn't this progression I was originally interested in though, which I'm assuming isn't so linear. I was merely trying to explain that in the local dialects they don't include the vowels. It doesn't need to be a more complex discussion than that -- it is just to make the other people aware that Meran (without the o) is in fact an "Italian" word as well. ] 21:28, 1 November 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :As far as I know, Meran didn't even exist in the Roman era. What's your proof that the name comes from Italian? BTW Ladin is not an Italian dialect! ] 22:02, 1 November 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::Yes, I know calling Ladin a dialect is very debatable -- and it is not a debate I want to get into right now. If anything, because like I said before, I am no professor of language studies. The thing that you must be aware of though is that there are <u>many</u> "dialects" such as Ladin spoken throughout this region. I mention Nones that is spoken in the Val di Non, there is a dialect in Val di Sole, etc. While Ladin/Nones/etc. are not dialects of the ''language'' Italian in the strict sense of the word; they are however very much Italian (possessive) dialects/languages/what-have-you -- as in local languages of the Italian people. I'm sure someone will now say that "Ladins" don't consider themselves "Italian". This, in my opinion is hogwash. It is the same if a "Nones" said they are not Italian, or if Napolitano said he/she is not Italian. Trust me, you will find people in all these areas that will say just so! As far as how we got to the actual word Meran(o), shoot, your guess is as good as mine. My point once again, a simple one at that, is just that the word Meran itself is "Italian". My family is from the Val di Non for centuries, a lot of people use Nones in daily life. If they say Meran -- they are not speaking German. So I'm just pointing out that since it is <u>used</u> in German, doesn't necessarily mean it is German. *yawn* :-) ps. I didn't say (or mean to say) that the word Meran comes from Italian (the language). You have to understand more the dynamics of languages in Italy though.. the thousands of local "dialects" (oops, not dialects, oh, yes dialects, argg, whatever) :-) regards. ] 22:15, 1 November 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::As an aside, on the it.wiki Merano page they have: ''"Il toponimo è attestato come Mairania nel 857 e deriva dal nome di persona latino Marius, col significato di "terreno di Mario".'' I don't know, I'd almost guess that it went from Mairan(ia) to Meran(o) by some spelling errors along the years. LOL. ] 22:33, 1 November 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :If by "Italian" you mean any language spoken in Italy, that includes French and German (and Albanian, Arab, Polish etc.) as well. I'll believe that most South Tyroleans (also the German speakers) consider themselves Italian nowadays, but that doesn't make Meran an "Italian language" name ''per se''. The Nones and Ladin names for Meran are not very relevant, and I don't think there's a real local Italian (or Ladin/Romansh) dialect in Meran, same as for Bolzano mentioned above. ] 22:50, 1 November 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::You are knitpicking my friend. You mention languages spoken in Italy, and I see where you are trying to go with this counter-argument. However, there is a difference from French, Arabic, ''et al.'' being spoken in Italy and the local/regional languages. Then again, to be fair, many of these local "dialects" have been influenced from non-Latin languages (i.e. Greek, Albanian, etc.). Anyway, Nones/Ladin/etc. are just one amongst many local Italian languages with a core root in Latin (i.e. Rome). With regards to the city proper of Merano and Bolzano, I really don't know how much people speak the "dialects" there. I ''think'' people more often speak "dialect" in the villages and surrounding valleys. Anyway, I really didn't want to get so technical into things. I just wanted to point out that the name ''Meran'' is also in fact a word used in Italian (possessive) languages. These "dialects" (Alp Latin??) were in the region well before German came in. This also goes back to a comment I saw Martin Se make that "Italians" were never in the area until after WWI. This is massive rubbish. The concept itself of "Italy" is very recent, the <u>people</u> however just didn't appear out of thin air. ] 23:19, 1 November 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :The people in Meran originaly appeared from the nord (germany) being the region almost deserted after the migration period. | |||
| :And Taalo is leading a personal war against me (''massive nonesence'') and my ladin and romansh ancestors (both grandfathers) are rotating in the tomb being called Italians--] 16:58, 2 November 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::What?? I'm leading a personal war against you? Dude, you came on here ranting and raving this past week and made your volcano on your user page.. and now you say I'm leading a personal war against you? I'm telling you that you should merely relax. Yeah, ''some'' people arrived in Merano from Germany a few hundred years ago, just like some people arrived from Rome 2000 years ago. It is all fine. You can say your grandfathers are rotating in their grave, crude as it may be. I know for sure that my Nones grandfathers would simply be sad that a few can be so naive as to say what you have said ''"rotating in the tomb being called Italians"''. How bloody tiresome are these type of statements?? I will be the first to say the people are first Ladin (or Nones, etc), then from this region, but finally they are "Italians". Sorry, but I find it extremely boring hearing people from Sardegna or Napoli or Sicily or Venice saying things like this. It is in fact a racism of people who don't want to be associated with their own brothers, sisters, and cousins. That is exactly why my grandfathers would be sad. ciao bello. ] 18:17, 2 November 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::I got more for you. Yeah, my family has been from the Val di Non for as far as we can go back -- going well back before "Germans" came down from the North. I have some Austrian blood because of these new neighbors and I'm as proud of that as the blood that comes from the South -- from Rome. Why shouldn't I? We are all humans after all -- I think!?! One of my Nones grandfathers would literally blow his top when he heard people talking bad about the "Italians" of the deep south. He felt this sort of behavior was disgusting, racist, and spitting in the face of your greater family. My other grandfather was a POW overseas during a good part of WWII and he carved out the the Italian peninsula by hand from a piece of tin an American officer gave him because he missed his home so much. That is what my grandparents were up to. Not rotating around offended because someone dares call them Italians... ] 18:40, 2 November 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::You (Taalo) don't have to invent names like "Alp Latin", because there is already a name for languages like Ladin and Nones: ]. "Real" Italian is in another subfamily of Romance languanges. Ladin is spoken in a few valleys in (southeastern) South Tyrol, Trentino and the province of Belluno, and practically not spoken outside those valleys. As Martin says, Meran (and adjacent Vinschgau, Passeiertal) was predominantly German before WW1. You're right, Italians (and I mean people who speak one of the Italian dialects) didn't appear out of thin air, they came from Bolzano (had a small Italian minority before WW1), Trentino, Veneto, and lots of other areas. I'm disappointed that you make some controversial statements and then say "I really didn't want to get so technical into things" when asked for evidence. That's not a basis for a useful discussion. ] 17:27, 2 November 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::Dude, you really have a talent for being abrasive. First, I did not invent the name ''"Alp Latin"''. I asked a question, hence the question marks. See them, there are two of them right there above. I have heard these languages referred to as ''Alp Latin'' or ''Latin of the Alps''. Yes, it isn't the scientific name, it is probably a laymans term. Nonetheless, I didn't invent it. '''Real''' Italian is the national language of the Republic of Italy. It is one of thousands of languages spoke in Italy. Yes, Ladin is spoken in a small area. Nones is spoken in a small area. The language/dialects of Cremona are spoke in those small areas. You can go literally valley to valley and town to town across the entire Italian peninsula and find 100s upon 1000s of dialects. Man, your last statement is just offensive. I'm not writing a scientific journal here, I'm just discussing my take on things. I say Meran is an Italian name, and you come out and yell "prove it!". If you have any scientific reasoning yourself, why don't you ask yourself "why don't I prove first that it is German". *rolls eyes* I'm disappointed that you can't just carry on a relaxed conversation without coming out with this paragraph above. You all have an extreme misconception of "Italians". Italy and Italians is an '''extremely''' broad and loose term. People from Trento are no more -- or no less -- Italian than people from Naples or Perugia. If you all want to try and ''divide and conquer'' "Italy" in order to make a claim on various bits of land.. well that is pretty petty in my opinion. Germans came in from the north in the 17th century. Germans were a majority before WW1. But did you ever think consider there were years previous as well?? From two-thousand years ago this was an "Italian/Latin/whatever" area, no matter how you like to twist it around. The irony is you like to argue that "Italians" came in and revised things, but you then put your head in the ground when the discussion goes back to the same thing that was done to the people living here originally. Shameful. ] 18:07, 2 November 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :I think we have different views on relaxed conversations. Whatever, I'm going to end (my contribution to) this one, it's leading nowhere anyway. BTW Germans came long before the 17th century, 6th-9th century's more like it. ] 19:38, 2 November 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::Yeah, from the sentence you wrote to me earlier today -- we do indeed have a different view. ''"BTW Germans came long before the 17th century, 6th-9th century's more like it."'' Oh, really? prove it! You're method is nice and relaxed, isn't it? Listen, Roman-Latin/Germanic/whatever people have been showing up for centuries. But as people came in during these centuries, it was building on people there previously, and on and on. I suppose you'd really love to imagine that South Tyrol is this ''ethnically pure'' "German" land, to that I also say -- whatever. We all came from Africa in the end... ;] ciao ciao. ] 20:33, 2 November 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::Read this: ]. And I never claimed anything about ethnic purity, those are your words. ] 20:45, 2 November 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Ah, welcome back. So then what is your problem? People have been coming over and camping out for thousands of years. I just don't like statements like "Italians" are here only for 90 years. If you disagree with that, then we are on same page. My comment on the 17th century was off the cuff after reading the statements of this morning. ] 21:14, 2 November 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::"From the 6th to the 9th century, the region was settled by the Bavarii together with the Langobards and the romanised natives." (quoted from the article on ]. I just mention this, although it is off-topic for this page. See my contribution there. ] <sup><font size="-2">]</font></sup> 20:49, 2 November 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Note first that I believe these paragraphs were pulled from the German wiki, so they do have a rather strong German-centric POV. It concentrates on the Germanization of the area and almost cuts out the Roman/Latin people. So already that entire bit should be revised. Humans have been coming into the area all the time. Like I said above, the main thing that was annoying to hear was this about "Italians in the last 90 years". regards. ] 21:17, 2 November 2006 (UTC) | |||
| Taalo LOL ] 18:19, 5 December 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ------ | |||
| Is anybody able to explain the above discussion to me? It started with a request to move the page from '''Merano''' to '''Meran'''. What followed, however, was a debate which might have been interesting in its own rights, but is completely unrelated to the initial request: | |||
| * It is entirely irrelevant "which language was there first", for two reasons: | |||
| ** This language was undoubtedly neither ] nor ]. Probably is was not even ] or ], but ] or even non-]. And the first Romance language spoken there was certainly not Italian. | |||
| ** The question to be decided here is not a ] one, but which name is the most appropriate to use in the ]-speaking wikipedia in ]. | |||
| * It is entirely irrelevant "which language dominated during which period in the past", for three reasons: | |||
| ** This changed back and forth through the centuries. | |||
| ** During the periods where Romance languages dominated, those were not Italian but either ] or ]. None of these are even close to being the language spoken by the majority of the city's inhabitants today. (Latin: 0.00%, ]-Rhaeto-Romance: 0.00%, modern ]: 0.49%.) | |||
| ** The question to be decided here is not a historical one, but which name is the most appropriate to use in the English-speaking wikipedia in 2007. | |||
| * If there is an established English name, this should be used. If there isn't, the most usual local name should be used. The ] is on both sides (or, if you prefer, neither side). If there is no established English name, use of English sources may be misleading. The reason is that Italian-speaking inhabitants of the city constituted the majority between the late 1920s/early 1930s and 1981. This would have made it natural to use '''Merano''' in English for this sole reason (which is now obsolete, as majorities have changed). | |||
| * The German name of the city may indeed have its ] in a Romance language. This | |||
| ** is irrelevant for the question (cf. ]); | |||
| ** should, if anything, make it easier, rather than harder, to accept the name '''Meran''' even for speakers of Italian. | |||
| * A German-speaking majority of 51.50% might indeed be "underwhelming". However, is, by inference, an Italian-speaking minority of 48.01% (with a decreasing tendency) an overwhelming justification to use the Italian name of the city? | |||
| * It is indeed interesting that other Romance languages than Italian (i.e., Ladin) or certain local dialects of Italian use the form '''Meran''' rather than '''Merano'''. This | |||
| ** increases, rather than decreases, the majority of inhabitants of the city using the name '''Meran'''; | |||
| ** should, if anything, make it easier, rather than harder, to accept the name '''Meran''' even for those who use the name '''Merano'''. | |||
| ] 13:18, 17 January 2007 (UTC) (]) | |||
| :In fact, this page was moved to "Merano" because the name commonly used in English in 2007 is Merano, not because there is a large Italian population in the city.--] 16:11, 17 January 2007 (UTC) | |||
| This is not strictly correct, as far as I can see: | |||
| * the reason given for the move to '''Merano''' was, I quote, "There was really no consensus , so I had to choose." That sounds quite arbitrary. | |||
| * As I said above, "If there is no established English name, use of English sources may be misleading". I doubt that a city of Merano's size has its own English name. In its absence, speakers of English would use the name most commonly used by locals. This would explain the use of the form '''Merano''' in English writings from the 1930s to the 1980s or in writings relying on sources written from the 1930s to the 1980s (which was the period when speakers of Italian ''were'' the majority in Merano). After all, you can't expect all people mentioning Meran(o) in writing to consult the latest censuses (or even to be aware of the region's trilinguality). But you might expect it from an encyclopedia. | |||
| Please note that I did not argue for or against '''Merano''', I merely pointed out several irrationalities and inconsistencies in the above debates. ] 14:09, 18 January 2007 (UTC) (]) | |||
| :Yes, you're right to call them "irrationalities and inconsistencies"; in my opinion these decisions should not be taken with a survey, because there are conventions that should be applied. In this case, the decision was right according to the conventions.--] 15:10, 18 January 2007 (UTC) | |||
| == Names in lead paragraph == | |||
| A similar situation exists in ]. The idea here is to put only the official name(s) into the opening sentence and have a separate section for the name, see ], and we can put Mairania there, this is indeed informative. Note that there are lots of romance names even in Germany, the most famous one is Colonia -> Köln (]). | |||
| Btw, there are no " local Italian languages ("dialects")", all Italian-speaking Meraners came to the area during the 20th century. This is the heartland of Tyrol: the name Tyrol itself stems from the Tyrol castle located in ]. In roman times, this was ], and the inhabitants were ]. ] <sup><font size="-2">]</font></sup> 00:18, 2 November 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :Sorry Andreas, but that is highly misleading when you say ''"Italian-speaking Meraners came to the area during the 20th century"''. You must learn to differentiate between the ''national'' <u>Italian language</u> and the <u>Italian people</u>. If you go with your ideas based on simply what people speak, then there are in the end almost no Italians in Italy! LOL. There are definitely many "local Italian (possessive) languages": Nones, Ladin, and Solandro to name just a very few. These people were here well before German arrived. Note that this discussion doesn't just involve the city proper Merano, but the nearby surrounding valleys/villages. Yes, this is the heartland of ''Tirol''. What this means beyond that? my regards. ] 00:36, 2 November 2006 (UTC) | |||
| *On a side note, does German have a large variety of languages? It seems to me Italy is something similar to China, where China has many Chinese languages: Mandarin, Cantonese, Hakka, Hokkien, etc., etc., etc. The people are all Chinese -- the language that has become ''official Chinese'' is Mandarin. In my humble opinion, I see Nones as to Italian as Hakka is to Mandarin (Chinese). Similar with Ladin. ] 00:49, 2 November 2006 (UTC) | |||
| You can see a brief overview of Ladin . Joining the discussion on Ladin groups: Fassano, Gardenese and Badiotto are called in Italian specialist literature "Ladino dolomitico", Noneso and Solandro (the latter apparently left out by the page I gave) "Ladino anaunico". Ceterum censeo paginam "Meran" esse nominandam. Regards, ] 18:45, 2 November 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :prove it! joking. :-) Always grateful for the info you provide Tridentinus. I guess this is discussion is getting philosophical now that I tried to bring up the point that the name ''Meran'' itself is "Italian". It is just my opinion that Ladin, Nones, etc. are in the end Italian (possessive) languages. Just as the other thousands of local languages in Italy. I'm not trying to make any sort of nationalistic claim. The terms Italy and Italian are both very broad umbrella if one <u>really</u> understands the people. ] 19:01, 2 November 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::According to conventions it seems very clear: This page has to be moved to "Meran" and stay there, as long as there is a German (or German+Ladin) speaking majority. Full stop. --] 14:50, 8 March 2007 (UTC) | |||
| :::It was decided in an earlier discussion (see the move request above) that the most common name for the city in English usage was Merano. The naming convention is that we should follow common English usage. I agree that there is a (slight) local majority of German speakers, but we decided some months ago (see ]) that we would only use the local majority language if there is no clear preference for one name in English. ] 16:02, 8 March 2007 (UTC) | |||
| :::These are all very funny arguments to some extent. You know, almost no one in Trentino-Alto Adige speaks "Italian" (Tuscan) as their first language. Everyone is speaking local Italian dialects/languages. All over Trentino they will say Meran, because it is the word in Nones, Solandro, etc. Merano is the "Italian" equivalent. I tend to agree that Merano is the more used name in English.. but this ''speaking majority'' (German + Ladin) is just funny. There is too much of a literal correlation being done between language and ethnicity. It is really not so black and white, by any stretch of the imagination. ] 18:35, 8 March 2007 (UTC) | |||
| * PHJ, It is by usual convention that the first name in the translations is where the city is located. What is the problem with this? You don't need to put German first, no one is taking German away from anything. o_O I prefer to have Italian-Ladin-German. My logic is that Italian (because it is in Italy), Ladin (because these are the local languages that pre-date the others), German (last but not least!). Then I make the mention that Meran is actually the common name in the region, not that it is not Italian, but it is the original name in the local Italian language(s). You should go to ], it might enlighten you a bit. later. ] 22:32, 8 March 2007 (UTC) | |||
| ** By the way, I'd really like to go with ] instead. ] 22:33, 8 March 2007 (UTC) | |||
| But is the common name for the city in English really Merano?? When I search pages from the UK on google, then there are ca. 40.000 hits for Meran and ca. 80.000 for Merano. Imho this result shows that there is '''not''' a common name in English. And so, following the Misplaced Pages Naming Conventions, the article should be removed to Meran. ] 16:53, 9 March 2007 (UTC) | |||
| : Well, your results are already showing a 2-to-1 usage of Merano more. Anyway, how about using Merano-Meran, so we don't have to keep having Italians and Germans coming to en.wikipedia to fight over the name again and again? By the way, Meran is actually an Italian name of the city as well. :P ] 09:51, 10 March 2007 (UTC) | |||
| Yes, it shows a 2-to-1 usage of Merano, but this is not a result for a presumed common name in English, don't you think so? And I don't talk about Italian or German names, my father is Italian...I only think that the Naming Conventions say that Misplaced Pages should use English names, if there are such in common use, and if not, Misplaced Pages should use the local names of the town, which is Meran. ] 17:04, 10 March 2007 (UTC) | |||
| : great, and good to meet you mai-sachme. i really hope you are a bit more relaxed than martin. actually, both names are fine to me. i tend to believe Merano is more commonly used in English references and maps. Meran is the more original and local Italian name though. So, why not Merano-Meran? It is what is commonly done in BZ anyway. ] 22:50, 10 March 2007 (UTC) | |||
| ==Order of Names== | |||
| In order to avoid two parallel discussions, I moved this discussion uniting it with: | |||
| *] | |||
| ] 08:11, 12 March 2007 (UTC) | |||
| == Taalos sentence == | |||
| Note that many of the region's Italian languages/dialects use Meran | |||
| This sentence is not relevant, because in the region (not political) are no Italian languages/dialects and standard Italian spoken in Merano uses Merano--] 15:05, 14 March 2007 (UTC) | |||
| : Come again? I'm merely trying to let the reader be aware that the local Italian languages actually use the word Meran. ] 17:26, 14 March 2007 (UTC) | |||
| == Straw Poll == | |||
| Move the city to the name of the majority-speak (={{lang-de|Meran}}). | |||
| <div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 2em 0 0 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:polltop --> | |||
| :''The following discussion is an archived discussion of the {{{type|proposal}}}. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</font> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. '' | |||
| {{{result|The result of the {{{type|proposal}}} was}}} '''no consensus''', hence '''no move'''. The results of the previous polls in October still seem to hold: Clear rejection of the old hyphenated double name; narrow call between the two single names (''Merano'' somewhat more common in English; ''Meran'' the language of the narrow majority locally). The debate below has added nothing further to this state of affairs except some further data on how much the Italian name is leading in English usage. Since ''Merano'' is thus clearly compatible both with the general Misplaced Pages naming guidelines and with the guidelines reportedly developed in the relevant Wikiproject, and since there is no clear consensus for any other proposal anywhere in sight, the page stays where it is. | |||
| I'm bringing this to a late formal close to stop people from using this as a reason for further move-warring. ] ] 20:09, 3 June 2007 (UTC) | |||
| === Support === | |||
| # '''Support''' All the cities and towns in South Tyrol are named based on the majority-language of the population. This needs to be consistent. ] 11:59, 3 April 2007 (UTC) | |||
| # '''Support''' Ditto, and Meran knows good English usage as well. ] 17:18, 6 April 2007 (UTC) | |||
| # '''Support'''. Ack Gryffindor. ] 17:55, 6 April 2007 (UTC) | |||
| # '''Support'''. Based on the decision made to support naming based on the majority lingual population for the variance of the region. ] 13:04, 9 April 2007 (UTC) | |||
| # '''Support''', aye. I'd prefer the dual names, but as this has been outvoted, it should be at the majority's language's name. —]<font color="green">]</font>] ] 19:51, 9 April 2007 (UTC) | |||
| === Oppose === | |||
| # '''Oppose'''. See above; most common English usage is ''Merano'', and to follow that is policy: ]. Failing that, policy is to use the local official name: (both ''Meran'' and ''Merano'' are; no hyphenated form is). The ethnic majority (51% in this case) is a stop-gap devised for the frequent cases in the South Tyrol when neither English usage ''nor'' the official name as a commune is decisive. It does not apply here; Merano is not an obscure hamlet. ] <small>]</small> 21:40, 9 April 2007 (UTC) | |||
| #'''Oppose''' I repeat that the name that should be used in the English wikipedia isn't the name used by the majority of the population, but the name most commonly used in English.--] 20:22, 11 April 2007 (UTC) | |||
| #'''Oppose''' Above all English usage is required in English Misplaced Pages. That trumps getting a dozen or two dozen people to vote another way. ] 01:35, 13 April 2007 (UTC) | |||
| #'''Oppose''' per Septentrionalis.--] 16:37, 14 April 2007 (UTC) | |||
| #'''Oppose''' per Septentrionalis. - ] 20:09, 3 June 2007 (UTC) | |||
| ===Discussion=== | |||
| I know it's tedious, but how does this make sense? The majority speaks German, nevertheless the city is at the Italian name? This is not consistent with the naming scheme of the villages and cities of that region. Either restore the double-name as a fair compromise (Meran-Merano) which I think is only fair and neutral, or move it somewhere else. ] 17:19, 27 March 2007 (UTC) | |||
| :You're absolutely right, it should be Meran. The extravagant vote taken here is supersided in the presence of a general convention. ] 11:54, 28 March 2007 (UTC) | |||
| ::The present location is, as Gryffindor well knows, based on the evidence that ] is more common in English. The difference in population is feather-thin; IIRC 51%-49%. The English WP does not exist to provide ethnic displays; it exists to communicate with English-speakers. ] <small>]</small> 18:47, 29 March 2007 (UTC) | |||
| Regardless of what Pmanderson thinks, a consensus was reached on this to use the majority lingual population naming convention - and English wiki or not, consensus abounds within wiki, and that is why it should be moved to Meran. We are very close to settling all the naming of articles for this region, with consensus and compromise. Would be nice after 4 years, eh? ] 13:07, 9 April 2007 (UTC) | |||
| :::It seems to be forgotten often that the convention that was apparently agreed to is: 1) Common English usage 2) local language majority. So in this case 1) Merano 2) very close Italian/German split. The algorithm gives us: ''Merano''. Next.. ] 17:43, 5 April 2007 (UTC) | |||
| The convention we agreed on at ] was to follow English usage, and if there's not a clear preference in English usage (which is the case for most of the municipalities), take the name in the majority language according to census. In practice, all municipalities are at the majority language, except Meran(o), for which more usage (Google 858k:326k) of the Italian Merano was found. It's not an overwhelming majority, neither is the local German-speaking majority (51.5:48.0). For me both Meran and Merano are acceptable article titles, I have no real preference. ] 13:40, 3 April 2007 (UTC) | |||
| : Agreed. Common English usage must overrule. Merano looks pretty clear to me as the name used in English most often. Also, this follows along my point on Ortisei. It is a famous little tourist town that even the local population use the Standard Italian spelling in tourist brochures, etc. ] 17:40, 5 April 2007 (UTC) | |||
| ::First you supported the use of double-names for Trentino-South Tyrol as a fair compromise, regardless of Google results. You supported the usage of double-names for cities and villages in the case for "]", or alternatively the name of the majority-speak for villages and cities in South Tyrol. Now you are opposed to having consistency and say that in this case the Italian name should be used. How does this make any sense? ] 20:22, 7 April 2007 (UTC) | |||
| :::On a purely technical basis I support using Common English usage first. For T-AA/ST that was actually shown to be ''Trentino-Alto Adige''. I wanted a compromise, and also personally prefer ''Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol'', so that is what was my first choice. It could pass muster as well, since it is ''official''. Now for the towns: On a personal basis I would prefer double names as I've grown up seeing: Bolzano (Bozen), Bressanone (Brixen), etc. But back to the technical side, there was apparently a consensus found to use a procedure of 1) Common English 2) Language Majority. I wouldn't mind revisiting this idea at some point with a neutral mediator, but at this point I can accept this as long as all names are respected. So in this case, we get ''Merano'' as the most common name in English (as Markussep stated). Look, in the language of my family (Nones, maybe it is a Ladin), we say ''Meran''. But Common English usage of this town is ''Merano'', as I'll argue is the case with ''Ortisei''. No matter what, when I create links I try and <u>always</u> use ] and ]. ] 22:10, 8 April 2007 (UTC) | |||
| Look, this is really not telling visitors/votors the whole story. The consensus was for English usage first, then majority-language second. Regardless of majority language, common English usage is ''Bolzano'', ''Merano'', ''Ortisei'', etc. In the end, as Ian has stated before, we can't go and create massive confusion with Misplaced Pages readers in order to pacify certain nationalists. ] 17:55, 9 April 2007 (UTC) | |||
| :1) Our consensus was to use double-names and not what is the most common English usage or 2) the name of the majority-speak of the inhabitants of the places. Clearly if the majority of the speakers of this town are German-speaking, then we need to be consistent, otherwise we risk confusing users. ] 19:20, 9 April 2007 (UTC) | |||
| ::I think we had better find consensus on the consensus then, because right above this conversation Markussep clearly pointed out: ''"The convention we agreed on at Talk:Communes of South Tyrol was to follow English usage, and if there's not a clear preference in English usage (which is the case for most of the municipalities), take the name in the majority language according to census."''. ] 20:58, 9 April 2007 (UTC) | |||
| :::What Icsunonove quoted above is indeed the result of the discussion at Talk:Communes of South Tyrol. I'm not sure what double-names consensus Gryffindor refers to, I think that's an interpretation of the Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol vote. ] is pretty clear, and as PMAnderson correctly stated, the "local majority" rule only applies when there is no clear common name in English. However, the "English use" evidence is only based on one Google search, that should be improved. ] 09:57, 10 April 2007 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I only say incorrect in regards to your statement "...as Pmanderson (correctly) stated". Wiki has situations where the consensus is reached, and in this case, consensus was not about a "clear common name" since the region is so diverse. Also, please note there are some instances on wiki where the ''perceived'' "common" name is actually antiquated and misused, when a more official or proper name can (and should) be used. ] 16:18, 13 April 2007 (UTC) | |||
| :::::I'm not sure what you think is incorrect. Misplaced Pages is not supposed to judge whether a name is proper or not (neither Merano nor Meran is particularly insulting IMO), and if a name is outdated, you'll notice soon enough (see ). The Talk:Communes of South Tyrol consensus was: use the common name in English, and if there is doubt about that, use the local majority name. This leaves some room for discussion, but it works OK for all municipalities except apparently Merano. ] 16:47, 13 April 2007 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::I think for ''Merano'' it really is a case where we should just go by what major English encyclopedias use. Actually, using references like Britannica, etc. would cut out a lot of this unnecessary debate for major city names, names of provinces, etc. ] 17:39, 13 April 2007 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::::That's what the guideline at ] says. But Rarelibra, I fear, disagrees with the ''policy'' to follow English usage at all. ] <small>]</small> 17:48, 13 April 2007 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::::Unfortunately, Pmanderson is extremely ''confused'' about what ''policy'' is versus the use of '''consensus'''. ] | |||
| ::::::::::Yes, I have the deplorable illusion that ] is policy; and that consensus is defined by ]. Rarelibra sees a higher, clearer Truth; of which he will doubtless convince the rest of us. ] <small>]</small> 20:11, 4 June 2007 (UTC) | |||
| ====English use==== | |||
| :::I'm not particularly against this move, especially if "Meran" is the most common name in English. Anyway, Meran/Merano is basically 50% Italian-speaking and 50% German-speaking, thus there is not a such strong German majority. --] (]) 10:21, 5 June 2016 (UTC) | |||
| {{od}} | |||
| It's not a good idea to reopen difficult issues without first reading the previous discussions. ] has a colossal amount of argument on this very topic. The overriding policy for determining the name of this article is ], i.e. what is the town most commonly called in modern English. As the region moved from Austrian to Italian control after WWI, we can expect English usage before 1919 to differ considerably from usage after that date. It is therefore no value whatsoever to quote sources dating to the 1800s as a guide to ''current'' English usage. I suggest you re-read the debate at ], in particular the arguments put forward by {{u|Ian Spackman}} and {{u|Pmanderson}} - not least the usage of Merano in contemporary English encyclopedias like Britannica and Encarta - and the refutation of the list of 19th century books produced in that section as evidence. It is clear from the previous debates that the majority usage in current English is 'Merano'. --] (]) 15:38, 5 June 2016 (UTC) | |||
| : | |||
| :On the contrary, I think we shouldn't look back to arguments and dogged discussions from 5-10 years ago, but pause for a moment and have a fresh look at our naming policies and the data. Our most basic naming policy is ]. Rexxs, you are right that it would be inappropriate to take a decision based on pre-World War I data. But I guess, you've got to admit, that it's also quite difficult to identify the town's most common ''English'' name by looking just at . And please note, that the ] was only released after the last extensive naming discussion in the archive and wasn't available to Ian Spackman or Pmanderson. I'd say that it's against all evidence, that either ''Meran'' or ''Merano'' can be deemed to be a preferred version. Having established that there is no clear evidence for a predominantly used common ''English'' name, there is another guideline, which has the precise goal to settle such cases of doubt: ]. --] (]) 18:42, 5 June 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :: | |||
| ::I have no strong feelings either way, but must point out that ], while normally very useful, is of limited use here. It says that ''Most municipalities have a large majority, often a 90% majority, of one language group'' and that is true, but Meran(o) is the complete opposite with 50%-49%, so basically an even split. As for English usage, Merano seems to be (by far) the more common forms in main English newspapers , , , , . So with an even linguistic split and a clear preference for Merano in English-speaking media, I'd suggest sticking to Merano. ] (]) 19:08, 5 June 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::: | |||
| ::: {{reply to | Mai-Sachme}} I disagree. It is common courtesy to check the archives for previous debates before re-hashing old chestnuts that have been argued over many times before. There is little doubt that the primary principle that we need to adhere to is that of using the title that is most commonly found in modern English sources. You will note that ] has a section dealing with subjects that have undergone a change of name, which guides us to "give '''extra weight''' to sources written ''after'' the name change" (emphasis as in the policy). The problem with your ngram is that includes all of the editions of books published prior to 1919 that have been re-published since 1950. The list at ] shows emphatically how common that is. Without the ability to filter out such spurious results, the ngram is worthless. On the other hand, the archives contain multiple demonstrations that Merano is more commonly used in recent English sources. Here's one reproduced from ]: | |||
| <blockquote style="margin-left:5em; border:1px solid #DDD; background-color:#EFE"> | |||
| Encyclopedias: | Encyclopedias: | ||
| * Merano | * Merano | ||
| Line 365: | Line 118: | ||
| * 590 | * 590 | ||
| I'm sure several "false hits" slipped through, but the overall picture is clear IMO: both names are used in English, "Merano" more frequently than "Meran". For the statistics enthousiasts: I used a more robust, but very time consuming method in this ]. ] |
I'm sure several "false hits" slipped through, but the overall picture is clear IMO: both names are used in English, "Merano" more frequently than "Meran". For the statistics enthousiasts: I used a more robust, but very time consuming method in this ]. | ||
| - ] | |||
| </blockquote> | |||
| ::: See also Ian Spackman's list of 10 modern sources at ]. Unless you can show that usage has changed dramatically since 2007/9, I think those results are pretty conclusive. --] (]) 21:21, 5 June 2016 (UTC) | |||
| : Nice work Markussep; it is nice to keeps things a bit quantitative. I've said above I like the name ''Meran'', but from my own personal experience the city is known in English by the Standard Italian name of ''Merano''. I often visit ''Ortisei'', and I'm willing to bet money that this is the name used most commonly in English as well, not ''Urtijëi''. The locals use the spelling ''Ortisei'' with the outside world for the most part. It is exactly the same word actually, and no one is being repressed by putting the article at the Standard Italian name and including the translations in the article. Anyway, want to run your system on that too? :-) ] 18:20, 10 April 2007 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Oh, well, I see. The ngram graphs are a result of myriads of reprinted books from imperial times, additionally, those graphs are proved wrong by ten years old raw Google searches, and the ultimate evidence is a list of 10 (!) modern sources. Case closed. --] (]) 22:11, 5 June 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::: Very clever, sarcasm is so convincing. Do you actually bother to read anything that others have posted? You actually think that the ngrams magically filter out reprinted books? Of the list of 34 quoted in the archive more than half were reprints of works dating back to Edwardian times and earlier. Just how do you adjust for that in your ngrams? And how do you have the nerve to criticise a set of Google searches that's 10 years old, when your ngrams start 65 years ago? If you want more recent searches have a look at these: | |||
| I moved the following Ortisei/Urtijëi discussion to ]. ] 07:40, 11 April 2007 (UTC) | |||
| :::::* 7,060 results | |||
| :::::* 1,550 results | |||
| :It's nice research, but wiki allows consensus as well. It seems the consensus is to use the majority language name... since there are those who don't wish to have a dual name. ] 14:10, 11 April 2007 (UTC) | |||
| :::::* 108 results | |||
| :::::* 29 results | |||
| ::Well the problem then is there hasn't been consensus to throw out common English usage first. As Markussep as pointed out many times now, the consensus was 1) common English usage 2) local majority language. If we want to knock off 1) then we should have a discussion at the comunes page. We would then need re-address the whole subject of the comune names and hopefully have a neutral mediator. All I'm seeing now is en.wikipedia becoming a translation of de.wikipedia. LOL. ] 17:09, 11 April 2007 (UTC) | |||
| ::::: {{tq|In determining which of several alternative names is most frequently used, it is useful to observe the usage of major international organizations, major English-language media outlets, quality encyclopedias, geographic name servers, major scientific bodies, and notable scientific journals. A search engine may help to collect this data; when using a search engine, restrict the results to pages written in English, and exclude the word "Misplaced Pages". When using Google, generally a search of Google Books and News Archive should be defaulted to before a web search, as they concentrate reliable sources}} - ] | |||
| ::* Rarelibra, please scroll up and read the discussion thread above where Markussep has replied. ] 17:11, 11 April 2007 (UTC) | |||
| ::::: I've pointed you to the evidence that Merano is used more commonly in quality encyclopedias, in scholarly works and in news outlets of the 21st century, by a factor of about 4 to 1. So what's your evidence showing the opposing view? --] (]) 00:21, 6 June 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::Please allow me to reiterate a point which I had been trying to make at an earlier occasion: I find it peculiar how much confidence you (i.e., both sides in this debate!) put into searches on the internet and counts of the respective hits. How sure can you be that those counts tell you ''anything'' about the question at hand, viz. whether there is an established English name for Meran(o)? That a place is mentioned in English does not make the particular form chosen an English name. To use a Norwegian example, an Englishman could perfectly well write on his home page that he "had climbed the ] after having crossed the ]". This English usage does not make those names English and cannot possibly establish any precedence. Likewise in the case of Meran(o). People writing travel diaries cannot be expected to check facts as carefully as I expect from an encyclopedia (such as wikipedia). But even if we assume that all speakers of English ''do'' use the same rules as encyclopedia, the majority of the form ''Merano'' does not really tell us anything. The reason is simply that the town has had an Italian-speaking majority from the 1940 to the 1980s. Therefore, ''during this period it would have been correct'' to use the form ''Merano'' even in the absence of an English name for the town. Now, everybody writing about the town after 1991 (the year of the first census after WW2 with a German-speaking majority) and relying upon sources published before 1991 would still believe that ''Merano'' is the correct form. She may not even be aware of the fact that other forms exist, or how tiny the Italian-speaking majority had been (about as tiny as the current German-speaking majority). In addition, official Italian maps ''still'' use the Italian versions of the names (either first or exclusively). So foreigners cannot really be blamed for using the "wrong" form ''even if we assume that they'' – in the absence of an established English name – ''were trying to use the local form''.<br />I am afraid my point of view cannot solve the problem. It only says that I believe internet counts are futile. If it suggests anything, it is that English sources older than 1921 should be checked. If most of them use ''Merano'' rather than ''Meran'', the case is closed (I think). Otherwise, I am not really sure. Personally, I favor the local form (see also ]) since I honestly doubt that a town of Meran(o)'s size ever has had an established English name. Forgive my interference in this debate, but I simply couldn't stand its arguments any more. ] 17:05, 24 May 2007 (UTC) (])<br /><small>P.S.: And 1 more thing: please stop to use the word "consenus". Do you really think, after all these debates, that a ''consensus'' will ever be reached? (This means ''unanimity''!)</small> | |||
| ::::You're right, Google hits aren't very reliable. In English encyclopedias and English maps, you find Merano, so Merano could be considered the English name. The naming conventions say that we should use the English names, and that if it is not clear which is the English name, we should use the current local name. In this case, if we choose the English name then it's Merano, if we choose the current local name then it is, again, Merano. So I think that we can peacefully accept this name and ignore the troublemakers.--] 15:17, 25 May 2007 (UTC) | |||
| :::Dear Supparluca, it is a complete enigma to me how you can make yourself believe that anything of what I have written supports anything of what you wrote in reply. To be sure, I don't have any strong emotions in favour of or against any form (neither ''Meran'' nor ''Merano''). However, I would like to draw your attention to the fact that you arrived at your conclusion (''Merano'') on the basis of two mistakes, i.e. one factual error and one logical error.<br />The ''factual error'' is that you think the local form is ''Merano''. However, the local form is ''Meran''. (This form is used by 52% of the population of the town. According to the information given by some Italian-speaking contributors to this talk page, the percentage may even be higher, since some local or nearby Italian dialects seem to use the form ''Meran'' rather than ''Merano''.)<br />The ''logical error'' is the same which I pointed out above using the example with google counts: if you see an English encyclopedia or map which uses the form ''Merano'', this can have any of the following reasons: (a) ''Merano'' is an established English name of this town. (b) The encyclopedia was written after the 1940s and before the end of the 1980s, in which period ''Merano'' would have been the local majority name. (c) The encyclopedia relied on a source written after the 1940s and before the end of the 1980s without checking whether majorities had changed in the meantime. (d) The encyclopedia/map relied on one of the many Italian-language sources which still ignore the proper local names, erronously assuming that the names given were local names. In cases (b) to (d) your reasoning would be ]. Only in case (a) would your conclusion be justified. In order to verify that case (a) is the actual reason for giving ''Merano'' in English, one would, as I mentioned, have to consult an English encyclopedia from before 1921. I have just checked the 11th edition of the '']'' (1910/11). It has an article about "'''MERAN''', the chief town of the administrative district of the same name in the Austrian province of the Tirol" and does not mention the form ''Merano'' a single time. So if you still think ''Merano'' is the established English form, the burden of proof is yours.<br />With kind regards, ] 10:08, 30 May 2007 (UTC) (]) | |||
| ::::Some of your words make me believe that you are trying to state that one name is better than the other, so it's useless to discuss. I just clarify two things: with "local name" I meant just the local name, not the name used by the majority of the population living in that city; and it doesn't help to cite the Encyclopaedia Britannica 1910/11, because we are talking about the current name (and in 1911 Merano was even in another country).--] 19:41, 30 May 2007 (UTC) | |||
| :::Dear Supparluca, allow me 3 short comments. Regarding "better": there is no need to ] your own attitude onto others. Regarding "local": what on earth do you mean by "local name" if not the name used by the local population? Regarding "1910": your response confirmed my suspicion that your reasoning about "established English use" was circular. Best wishes, ] 11:44, 3 June 2007 (UTC) (]) | |||
| ::::We have different opinions, I respect yours, and I'm not interested in changing it.--] 17:23, 3 June 2007 (UTC) | |||
| ::::The '''present''' usual English usage is ''Merano'', although ''Meran'' can be found. This has changed since 1911; not surprisingly, since the city has changed country. ] <small>]</small> 17:11, 3 June 2007 (UTC) | |||
| :''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the {{{type|proposal}}}. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.</div><!-- Template:pollbottom --> | |||
| ==Meran, a compromise== | |||
| If it makes anybody feel better, I would have no objection to having the first line use '''Meran''' in boldface, in addition, or even in place of, '''Merano'''. But it really should be located at ], where it has been, following English usage. If there is interest in this, do comment here. ] <small>]</small> 20:11, 4 June 2007 (UTC) | |||
| :As I already said, I think that the most neutral solution (that is, by the way, also the best solution) is to apply the naming conventions like all the other articles, so I disagree with this proposal.--] 17:09, 5 June 2007 (UTC) | |||
| ::As I read ] (" It is customary to '''bold''' the article title name, and its frequently used English language synonyms"), we really should ''include'' '''Meran'''. Since you insist on '''Merano''', and you are within your rights to do so, we must include it also. If someone sees a convenient way to phrase this, and nobody complains, it may be as well to have both. ] <small>]</small> 21:09, 5 June 2007 (UTC) | |||
| ::: Do we have noting better to do? In my two years on wikipedia, this discussion has been going on and on and on... and on and on and on... Almost no one in this discussion is from Meran- I '''am''' actually from Meran and German speaking. I don't care were the article is as long as everybody will find it! (by typing either "Meran" or "Merano"- thank god we have "redirect"). So, whatever you do- please leave afterwards a big-fat memo at the top of this discussion page telling everyone that this matter is now settled and '''NOT''' '''EVER''' again open for further debate! Thanks,] 22:45, 5 June 2007 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I'll second this; ''wohlgetan!''. ] <small>]</small> 18:10, 6 June 2007 (UTC) | |||
| :::::I agree with the above opinion that the name of the article doesn't really matter much. I believe, however, that the discussion will not be laid dead unless the final decision fulfils the condition of having a <small>VALID BASIS</small>. There are valid arguments for ''Merano'' (e.g., the form used by the national linguistic majority), for ''Meran'' (e.g., the form used by the local and the regional linguistic majority), for ''Meran/Merano'' and for ''Merano/Meran'' (e.g., bilinguality of the town and region), and I won't argue in favour of, or against, any of them. Whichever decision is reached, however, it should not be based on erroneous (such as "''Merano'' is 'the' local form") or circular arguments (such as "''Merano'' is the established English form") – otherwise I am afraid the decision won't be long-lasting. Good luck, ] 19:31, 18 June 2007 (UTC) (]) | |||
| Some tourist brochures, etc talk about "Meran(o)". | |||
| ==Maia-Mais etc== | |||
| I'm sorry, but Maia is NOT the English name, but the Italian. You can't argue seriously that ''Maia'' is a widely used English name for the quarter, so why should the German name stand in brackets? And on ] I can't find a passage that justifies your changes, but i found this: ''Where the above tests, therefore, give no indication of a widely used English name, those articles are placed according to the language of the linguistic majority. If these conditions apply elsewhere, this solution may be worth considering.'' ] 11:01, 1 August 2007 (UTC) | |||
| :Using either the Italian or German names for places in South Tyrol has been discussed many times already here on the English Misplaced Pages. More people seem to be in favour of the Italian names. ] 11:08, 1 August 2007 (UTC) | |||
| ::I know that there have been long discussions and I'm not interested in extending them. According to the Naming conventions we should use an English name, if existing. Otehrwise we use the name used by the local majority. In this case, I'm not able to understand Supparluca's opinion that ''Maia'' is an English name. It's nonsense to think that there are widely used English names for little villages, quarters, hills and rivers in South-Tyrol. ] 11:16, 1 August 2007 (UTC) | |||
| :::I must agree on that one. It will be hard to find evidence for "English names" for these. ] 11:24, 1 August 2007 (UTC) | |||
| The Mais area is generally German speaking and Maia is hardly used. ] (]) 08:58, 10 June 2008 (UTC) | |||
| == Move? == | |||
| <div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 2em 0 0 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:RM top --> | |||
| :''The following discussion is an archived discussion of a ]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. '' | |||
| The result of the move request was '''page renamed''' to "Meran". —] (]) 08:12, 5 July 2009 (UTC) | |||
| ---- | |||
| ] → ] — As per discussion on ] (and as announced on ]) the ] section has been modified and as the city of Merans population is listed on page 6 of the to be 51,50% German, 48,01% Italian and 0,49% Ladin and in accordance with the new and uncontested modifications to the naming convention regarding locations in the aforementioned province the the article needs to be moved to ]. ] (]) 22:31, 21 June 2009 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''', as per Noclador --] (]) 07:35, 24 June 2009 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support'''. The move could be done right away as the current title is an obvious mistake. Every community in Alto-Adige/Südtirol is found under the name used by the local majority, Meran is the only exception. I suggest moving the article right away to put it in line with all other related articles.] (]) 12:09, 26 June 2009 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' as per my post, the naming convention and as per User JdeJ; --] (]) 15:30, 26 June 2009 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Support''' as per Noclador. Since Google searches of "Meran" or "Merano" are unreliable to say the least, due to the multiple meanings of the word, as I found out myself, the naming convention specified for the province provides the basis for "Meran". ] (]) 19:30, 27 June 2009 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Very strongly oppose'''. This is the German national faction on the loose; there is also an Italian national faction (have they been notified of this?). There is policy against making the same appeal again and again, with no new evidence, in the hopes of attracting a new jury. Meran is an exception, as ] said until these same editors changed it, because ''Merano'' appears to be English usage; which should prevail over decade-old population statistics. Those are a stop-gap for when English usage is indeterminable, and not otherwise. ] <small>]</small> 20:52, 28 June 2009 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Very strong oppose'''. "Merano" is used in English. --] (]) 11:52, 29 June 2009 (UTC) | |||
| : Can you prove that?? --] (]) 11:55, 29 June 2009 (UTC) | |||
| * '''Strong oppose''', either because the title should be as in English usage: Merano, either to not bring again ethnic discussions in wikipedia .--] (]) 12:03, 29 June 2009 (UTC) | |||
| :And again: Could you please prove that ''Merano'' is the clearly favoured name? Otherwise you're just ignoring the Naming Conventions... --] (]) 15:47, 29 June 2009 (UTC) | |||
| :: '''@Pmanderson:''' first you did not oppose the changes to naming convention for the entire month that we wanted to discuss them, then there was consensus to remove the ambiguous sentence about Meran forced through by Icsunonove and his plethora of socks (Supparluca et. al.) and you did not oppose the changes done, now suddenly you pop up and throw around accusations of "German national faction" on loose???? hello! ] is Italian, I am the one working on all the Italian Army articles and a proud ] and ] is Swedish! Prove that there is "a widely used English name" - you will find that this is not possible and in such a case the language majority rule applies. --] (]) 21:33, 28 June 2009 (UTC) | |||
| ::+1 I'm quite sick of being called a ''German nationalist''. I was really convinced that these defamations would stop after Icsunonove's leaving, but obviously they don't... --] (]) 22:54, 28 June 2009 (UTC) | |||
| ::*There is no "language majority '''rule'''"; there is a stop-gap provision, which applies only when there is an insufficient record of English usage, and no single official name; this is intended for hamlets in the hills, like Ortisei, not for well-known cities, like Merano. ] <small>]</small> 22:32, 28 June 2009 (UTC) | |||
| ::*Clearly it's a good thing I indulged in boldface here; or my objection might have been ignored, as has been. So much for speaking softly. ] <small>]</small> 23:30, 28 June 2009 (UTC) | |||
| ::: How should we interprete this statement? Google searches, which established the former rule, are obviously not appropriate. Is there another possible interpretation? --] (]) 05:24, 29 June 2009 (UTC) | |||
| :::But let's try it again: a Google Books search is for sure not a good solution to determine an established English name, but at least it shows if there is a clear preference. Here we are (time restriction 1980-2008 to avoid pre-war results): , ... Is this what you would call a clear preference, Septentrionalis? Obviously not, and what should we do now? --] (]) 10:48, 29 June 2009 (UTC) | |||
| '''Oppose change'''. This is a marginal case: the place is hardly unknown in the English language, but it is only somewhat known: the argument could go either way. And it doesn’t much matter which way it goes—as long as we don‘t find ourselves out on a limb when compared to other English language reference works. In that case we would appear to be attempting to make a political point, and Misplaced Pages would lose credibility. What we ''don’t'' want is for the argument to go a different way each month and to be followed, each month, by a move of the article and a load of links to it in other articles. That would be ludicrous. Therefore I think we need to be conservative: the onus is on those who want to make the move to demonstrate one of the following: | |||
| *That the commonest English usage, as shown in similar English-language works of reference, is other than the one we are currently using; | |||
| *That similar English-language works of reference are more or less evenly split between Meran and Merano (both of which have dotted underlines as likely bad spellings in Firefox with the en-GB spell-checker turned on, by the way), but that there is a clear English-language usage elsewhere which goes against our current usage; | |||
| *That English usage at least very marginally leans towards suggesting a move and that the local usage (which we follow when all else fails) very clearly suggests such a move | |||
| *That the place seems simply to be too insignificant to appear in English-language reference works, in which case we follow local usage, even if its only split 60:40; | |||
| I have three such reference works to hand. The index to the ''Blue Guide to Northern Italy'' has only ‘Merano’; the indispensible Everyman’s Encyclopedia in twelve portable volumes (1961) has this to say: ‘'''Merano'''’ It. tn in Trentino-Alto Adige (q.v.) on the Passirio, a trib. of the Adige (q.v.). It is at the foot of the Ötzal (q.v.) Alps, and is a health and holiday resort. It has a 15th-cent. castle and a 14th-cent. Gothic church. Pop. (tn) 25,900; (com.) 32,900. The invaluable ''What’s What 1902'' has no entry. ] (]) 13:48, 30 June 2009 (UTC) | |||
| ===Discussion=== | |||
| The principle on which this was originally placed is stated thus: (and these words are not presently in dispute: ''one solution is to follow English usage where it can be determined, and to adopt the name used by the linguistic majority where English usage is indecisive. This has been done, for example, with the communes of the province of Bolzano-Bozen, based on an officially published linguistic survey of the area (see Italy below).'' Let it be shown that English usage is indecisive, and then we can discuss whether 2% or 3% more German-speakers in a census eight years ago is enough basis to name this town. (Do recall that every other commune in Bozen-Bolzano has a decisive majority; the least is around 59% and many are around 90%.) ] <small>]</small> 22:41, 28 June 2009 (UTC) | |||
| :You missunderstand the current rule... It's not our job to prove indecisive usage, you have to prove a clear English usage. But anyway: A short look on Google Books provides a big amount of usage of both variants & . --] (]) 23:02, 28 June 2009 (UTC) | |||
| ::An odd claim, since I was part of the long discussion that established that "rule", and I phrased most of the present text. At that time, there appeared to be a clear majority of usage for ''Merano''. '']'', unless there are grounds to overturn more convincing than the belly-aches of ethnic champions - new evidence, for example. ] <small>]</small> 23:09, 28 June 2009 (UTC) | |||
| *By the way, whatever happened to ? I agree in principle; my objection here is largely procedural. ] <small>]</small> 23:36, 28 June 2009 (UTC) | |||
| :: Yes, I did not care and did not want to get involved into the petty fights that one editor (Taalo, Icsunonove, Supparluca,... and so on) had begun, until 2 years later when I saw what horrible, disastrous crap the editor in his biased campaign produced! typical example: "Neue Südtiroler Tageszeitung" correctly translated as "New South Tyrolean Daily" was suddenly the "New Province of Bolzano-Bozen Daily"... and so on - and much worse! What I am doing now is cleaning up after said editor as he put abstruse claims/inventions into articles i.e. Ladin is just a kind of Italian dialect, the Steinerner Steg in Meran is actually a Roman bridge, in 1178 the Brenner Pass was conquered by Venice in a war with Verona,... and so on. Believe me, there are thousands of edits that had to be checked! He even changed Austrian biologist to Italian biologists, even though they were born in South Tyrol in the 18 century and studied, lived, published and died in Vienna before the 19th century had even begun!!! In short the "editor" did massive damage to wikipedia! and if an individual with such an agenda is ready to falsificate wiki articles and uses for that purpose a plethora of socks than I believe that also all discussion he participated in are a no longer valid. --] (]) 00:09, 29 June 2009 (UTC) | |||
| ::: and what would be the right procedure??? btw. although the census is 8 years old, every comune has always the up to date data about its population as every citizen moving to or away from a comune has to communicate that to authorities. In Meran the Italian population has massively decreased over the last 8 years, because of the reduction and disbandment of the last military units in the city. The last unit in Meran the 24° Reggimento Logistico di Manovra will soon leave too; which will reduce the Italians in town by another 400-600 people... so, if we wait another 2 years we will see that the Italians will have fallen by then under the 40% mark... (largely to the disbandment of the 5° Reggimento Artiglieria da Montagna and the 18° Reggimento Alpini), but because of the fact that the census defines the allotment of jobs for each language group in the provinces public sector for ten years, it is only published every ten years and in force for ten years; therefore no official data will be published until then... but the unofficial numbers we can get by placing a call to the city of Meran. --] (]) 00:21, 29 June 2009 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Predictions about future population are ]. ISTAT will have UTD info in two years, but until then... .--] (]) 07:19, 29 June 2009 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Anyway, the population ratio in Meran/o was quite stable over years, a sudden change of the majority (as mentioned by Septentrionalis) is not very likely... --] (]) 09:18, 29 June 2009 (UTC) | |||
| :::I am quite curious to know what would be the right procedure, too. And actually, I am not convinced that US law terms are applicable on Misplaced Pages as you suggest. Icsunonove and his mobster pushed for a special rule based on Google hits several years ago because at those times he was ''on the loose'' as you would say. And now we should keep it for procedural reasons? Absurd... --] (]) 05:31, 29 June 2009 (UTC) | |||
| :I see the appeal of naming cities in this region based on majority usage, but it still seems odd that a city in Italy would have a German name on English Misplaced Pages where the languages are almost in parity. OTOH, the guideline makes sense for this border area, so an exception isn't compelling. I'd be happy with either, although I wouldn't implement this move on my own. Disclosure: I taught English for two years in Italy, in case anyone things that makes me part of some faction.--] (]) 07:19, 29 June 2009 (UTC) | |||
| Septentrionalis, care to explain what the "right procedure" is? Please enlighten us. ] (]) 12:23, 29 June 2009 (UTC) | |||
| :The right procedure offers two choices: | |||
| :*Establish ''consensus'' here to move - in which case NCGN will reflect that the customs it describes have changed; this will require either convincing the Italian faction, or convincing a large number of other people, ''not involved in the silly issue'', that you are right '''and''' that it matters. This is where new evidence matters. | |||
| :*Leave it alone, as other trivialities (AD v. CE; ''color'' v. ''colour'') are left alone. After all, there is a redirect; everyone can find it; and Merano is commonly used in English. | |||
| :My judgment is that the first (which is admittedly quite difficult) has not been tried; therefore I strongly support the second. ] <small>]</small> 16:44, 29 June 2009 (UTC) | |||
| Hm, you are entitled to your opinion, but neither of your "right" procedures is anywhere to be found in the WP regulations, which, as you well know, should form the basis of any decision. So what is your argument, besides your opinion, for keeping "Merano"? ] (]) 19:44, 29 June 2009 (UTC) | |||
| :What I have said is ]. Any editor worth discussing with would know we don't have "regulations." ] <small>]</small> 20:38, 29 June 2009 (UTC) | |||
| First of all, I object to the rudeness of Septentrionalis/PManderson; the user's lack of civilty speaks volumes. I would appreciate if the user would remain from speculating about my nationality based on my edits. Not so much for the fact that his speculations are wrong as for the fact that the nationalities of contributors are irrelevant, it is factual argument that decide. I have left a warning on his/her userpage over this behaviour. | |||
| *For every single community in Alto Adige, we use the name of the majority in the community. In Meran, that majority is German-speaking. | |||
| *Unless it can be proven that the Italian name is established English usage in this case, unlike the case of all neighbouring communities, it logically follows that we should apply the same naming conventions for Meran as for all other communities. | |||
| *The burden of proof thus is on Septentrionalis/PManderson to show that Merano, and not Meran, is the established English usage '''or''' provide reasons for why we should apply a different naming convention to this municipality than to all others in the province.] (]) 21:54, 29 June 2009 (UTC) | |||
| **The ''only'' reason we paid any attention to population statistics at all is that places like ] must go ''somewhere'', and have two equal official names and limited coverage in English. Rather than place the article at Moos/Moso, and have the good patriots of the two contending nationalities argue over the order, ], we picked one. The real question is why we should treat Merano differently than we treat Cologne or Rome, where we use the French form without considering population. ] <small>]</small> 22:11, 29 June 2009 (UTC) | |||
| :Dear Septentrionalis, whatever your opinion is, it is not ], because WP:Consensus makes it abundantly clear that "'''Consensus is not in numbers'''" and neither you nor anybody else who voted "strong oppose", "super strong oppose" or "super super strong oppose" have brought anything to the table in form of arguments against "Meran". How you personally interpret the names of "Cologne" or "Rome" has no bearing on the question on how the communities in South Tyrol are to be called for which we have an own established set of guidelines. As it currently stands, Meran is the logical and justified choice according to WP rules. ] (]) 22:15, 29 June 2009 (UTC) | |||
| ::Consensus is not in numbers; it is in agreement - which your faction do not possess. Cut and paste moves, like , are unlikely to produce such agreement; neither is Wikilawyering. ] <small>]</small> 22:44, 29 June 2009 (UTC) | |||
| ::Neither side can claim any universal agreement, that's why we're debating. What "our faction" can claim is firm support in similar articles and in factual arguments. Rome ''is'' established English usage thus we use Rome rather than Roma. As long as no proof has been put forward of Merano being the established English usage, the argument remains that we follow the majority language of the community. Up to this point, the arguments for naming the article Meran are extremely clear (in line with common usage, following the majority language in the community) while no valid argument has been put forward for Merano. To answer your question, why we should treat Meran different from Cologne and Rome, well, perhaps because Meran is a small local town in the Alps with little coverage in English while Rome and Cologne have both been capitals of countries with more than 50 million inhabitants. That places Meran firmly in the same situation as Moos in Passeier and countless of small towns in multilingual regions, not in the folder of capitals of major European countries.] (]) 09:11, 30 June 2009 (UTC) | |||
| '''Hey guys''', could the ''oppose faction'' (to use Septentrionalis' diction) please only try '''once''' to prove that Merano is significantly more used than Meran? '''Otherwise you're just ignoring the Naming Conventions''' and a further discussion is useless... For those who don't know the current rules: ''Therefore articles about locations in the province of Bolzano-Bozen are placed according to the language of the linguistic majority, except where the widely used English name is adequately substantiated and is different from that of the majority language group.'' Thank you --] (]) 12:58, 30 June 2009 (UTC) | |||
| :The onus is on those who want to make a change to make their case. ] (]) 13:50, 30 June 2009 (UTC) | |||
| ::Misplaced Pages doesn't follow the rule ''Who comes first, wins''... --] (]) 14:20, 30 June 2009 (UTC) | |||
| :::It is a requested move: '''the case for a move needs to be made''', and I am perfectly relaxed about your making it. But make it: if you search for Meran on http://www.britannica.com —a rather reliable guide to common English usage I would think—you get the result: ‘Did You Mean...Merano (Italy)’. (If you follow that up you get a rather feeble summary of the entry in 1960’s Everyman entry: ‘city, Trentino–Alto Adige regione, northern Italy. It lies at the foot of the central chain of the Alps, at the confluence of the Passirio and Adige rivers, northwest of the city of Bolzano.’] (]) 14:35, 30 June 2009 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Spackman, you've misundetstood this. The case for moving is exceptionally clear. ''Every'' community in the province of Alto Adige is named according to the majority language in that community, Meran is at this moment the only exception. As the move is in line with Misplaced Pages titles not only for this region but also for similar regions in multilingual countries (Belgium, Finland, Switzerland), the case for the move is very clear and has been spelt out countless of time. Regardless of on whom the onus is, the present case here is that the side requesting a move has pointed out in great details the case ''for'' that move. Your faction has only done what you just did: refused to even read our arguments and tried to avoid having to build your own case by calling on us to develop ours once again. We have made our case very clear: Meran is the majority name of the municipality and that is the guideline we follow for every single community in Alto Adige.] (]) 07:15, 1 July 2009 (UTC) | |||
| ::::As for Spackman's quotes from the 1960s, they stem from a time when the idea of "one country, one language" still held sway. And English language use also changes, we used to talk about ], ] and ], we now talk about ], ] and ]. In more contemporary sources, we often find both Merano and Meran in English, bringing us back to the question of why 1 out of 116 communities in Alto-Adige should deviate from the principle of using the majority language of every community.] (]) 07:20, 1 July 2009 (UTC) | |||
| :::::The first rule is that where there is an established usage in English we use that. We rightly gnored Turin’s attempts to re-brand itself as ‘Torino’ (in English, mean) during the Winter Olympics, for instance. Only where there is no established usage do we apply the local language convention.] (]) 07:48, 1 July 2009 (UTC) | |||
| :::::''Britannica''? ] (]) 07:48, 1 July 2009 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::You're quite right, when there is an established usage in English, we use that name. I think everybody agrees on that. The call we have made, time and time again, is for anyone to show that Merano is, in fact, established English usage. Few places that size even have an established English usage. Septentrioanlis tried to compare it to capitals of major European countries. Let me point out that I am ''not'' saying that Merano could not be shown to be established English usage, I've merely pointed that the case has not been made, this far. That Merano is in use has been shown, just as it has been shown that Meran also is in use in English. The questions remains whether one is significantly more common that the other. If that is the case, we should use that name. If not, we should follow the majority language of the municipality.] (]) 08:31, 1 July 2009 (UTC) | |||
| ''Major European capitals'' is bafflegab: Cologne was never a major capital, and hasn't been the capital of anything for two centuries; the only reason I chose Rome, rather than Florence or Venice or Nuremburg or Pilsen, was variety. | |||
| There is no advantage to the encyclopedia in this change. Anybody (and it's doubtless limited to the dozen people who have been involved in this discussion) who knows that other communes in the area follow the linguistic majority should know that this is an exception to our general rules, and that Merano should not reasonably be expected to follow it, especially on the basis of a 51.5% majority eight years ago. How do we know a few hundred Milanese workers (and their families) haven't followed the tourist trade? | |||
| There would be a marked success in ethnic point-scoring, however; it is that which I strongly oppose. ] <small>]</small> 15:50, 1 July 2009 (UTC) | |||
| :Very very very unlikely: ] and the fact that you usually have to prove German language skills to get a job should not be really attracting to Milanese workers. With other words: nothing else than a straw man argument... And let's state that cities like Rome or Florence or Venice or Nuremberg or Cologne can be considered quite important and famous in the English speaking world (] is by the way nothing else than the German spelling) while Meran is a little town in the mountains. --] (]) 18:59, 1 July 2009 (UTC) | |||
| :: "ethnic point-scoring" is a strong reason you oppose the move??? oh,... well, I am from Meran and I can tell you that the people that moved to city over the last years follwoing the tourist trade were mostly Croatian, Czech and Slovak. No Milanese in sight,... and each year there are less children in the Italian language elementary schools (especially in Untermais, where the Army personnel lived); so if you insist on better numbers - it's two years until the next census and then we will have to move it anyway. | |||
| :: I wish to move the page because Meran has been for centuries the name of the city, Meran is the name used by the cities majority, Meran is the most common name in English (just look at chess: ) and we all know that the move from Meran to Merano was the works of a sock-mob controlled by Icsunonove. So tell me: what speaks against a move? This is not an ethnic point-scoring match - it is about undoing an bad faith erroneous move. --] (]) 19:05, 1 July 2009 (UTC) | |||
| ::The one thing we have asked for is proof that Merano is established English usage, but all Septentrionalis seems to be able to come up with is mindless ramblings about our nationalities, pointless comparisons with much larger cities and ] speculations about whether more Italians have moved to Merano. All of this is entirely irrelevant to the discussion. Is Merano established English usage or not? That is the question we try to address here. So far, no proof has been put forward.] (]) 19:13, 1 July 2009 (UTC) | |||
| :::No case has been made that ''Meran'' is any improvement to the encyclopedia; so there is nothing to answer. Even were there any actual case, the answer is already on this page, in the section conveniently called ]. ] <small>]</small> 19:40, 2 July 2009 (UTC) | |||
| ===Summary=== | |||
| Trying to sum up the discussion, and ignoring irrelevant outbursts about users' nationalities, ethnic-point scoring, Crystal-balling and other non-factual arguments, three things seem obvious. | |||
| * Despite numerous calls for proof that Merano is established English usage, no such proof has been put forward. While it has been shown that Merano is used in English, it has also been shown that Meran is about as widely used. | |||
| * There is no doubt at all about the situation on the ground, as we have firm evidence in the Italian census. German is the majority language in the municipality. | |||
| * For 115 out of 116 municipalities in Alto-Adige, we use the name of the local majority language. Meran is the only exception. While established English usage would override looking at the majority language, more than a week of discussions has not produced any proof for such established usage. Lacking such usage, there is no reason why Meran should be treated differently than the other 115 communities in Alto Adige. The case for moving this article to ] thus seems solid.] (]) 19:22, 1 July 2009 (UTC) | |||
| **To repeat myself, there is no case anywhere in JdeJ's complaints that ''Meran'' is an advantage to the encyclopedia. The evidence that Merano is more common is above, in the section conveniently called ]; Ian Spackman has added more. ] <small>]</small> 19:43, 2 July 2009 (UTC) | |||
| :::Contrary to what Septentrionalis claims, there are obvious advantages to moving the article to ] | |||
| :::* It brings this Alto Adige article in line with the 115 other Alto Adige articles. | |||
| :::* It follows the naming conventions (using the majority language of the municipality) employed on Misplaced Pages for many countries, including Belgium, Finland Switzerland ''and'' Italy.] (]) 07:53, 3 July 2009 (UTC) | |||
| ::::: regarding the section called: ]... pretty ridiculous as the time frame has been reduced to only include articles, news and papers published after 1957 and the word Italy has been added... google searches can be manipulated and as I said before at ] google searches should be dropped and not used at all! and just to give you an idea how the city of Meran thinks: if you go to the official homepage of the city http://www.merano.eu/ you are redirected to http://www.meran.eu/ !! nota-bene at www.Merano.eu there is only a redirect! --] (]) 16:20, 3 July 2009 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::Sigh. As Noclador should know, both ''Meran'' and ''Merano'' are official names; the suggestion that the URL (which, like us, must have ''one'' form) makes one somehow ''more'' official is nonsense. ] <small>]</small> 18:40, 3 July 2009 (UTC) | |||
| Yes, and as Septentrionalis knows very well, we have decided to use only one name (] instead of ] and ] instead of ]. We have also decided to use the majority name of each community, be it Italian (Bolzano) or German (Brixen). In the case of Meran, both Meran and Merano are official names but Meran is the name of the majority in the municipality, according to the latest Italian census, and that is why the article should be moved to ].] (]) 19:06, 3 July 2009 (UTC) | |||
| :You've said that before, and it has convinced no one. That's not what the majority is used for, and ''Merano'' (and the above statistics) were part of the same compromise which used population majorities (when there is a 98% majority, not 51.5%) to decide cases ''in which there was no English evidence'' to speak of. | |||
| :You misquote that compromise, and abuse our patience. This disruptive nationalism has gained no voices; this should be closed. There is no consensus on this, and no evidence that ''Meran'' would be an improvement. ] <small>]</small> 19:41, 3 July 2009 (UTC) | |||
| ::Septentrionalis, I would advice you to learn how to conduct a civil debate, you have already been warned about your behaviour. Previously, you have used false arguments about other users' nationalities and made other irrelevant but insulting claims. Now you do it again, calling every who doesn't agree with you "disruptive nationalists". By resorting once again to insults, you reveal not only your own lack of education but also your lack of factual arguments. Neither am I impressed by your attempt to try to elevate yourself to some kind of judge deciding whom my arguments convince or not. I fully accept that they haven't convinced ''you'', and that is all you can say. The same goes for your talk about "abusing ''our'' patience". It is pathetic attempt to silence factual arguments that you do not agree with but lack the ability to answer in a factual way. There is no "compromise" related to Merano or even Alto Adige, it is a principle we use for many other countries as well. We go by the majority language of bilingual communities, regardless of whether that majority is 99.99% or 50.01% - there are plenty of examples of both. The only exception is in cases with an established English usage, and the discussion here has made it very clear that both Meran and Merano are common in English. You know that the factual arguments are against you, and I guess that is why you resort to insults and disruptive behaviour. I would like to point out that this goes only for Septentrionalis. Even though I don't agree with Ian Spackman on the issue currently under debate, he has remained civil and polite, just like every other user except Septentrionalis.] (]) 20:25, 3 July 2009 (UTC) | |||
| :::And here we go again: JdeJ's position remains unsupported save by those few who came in supporting it; it remains without evidence; it remains contrary to the evidence which Markussep provided above. | |||
| :::He also continually misstates what our guidance is. The discussion on which this is based is at ] and its archives; ] is particularly clear. There are four towns for which "local majority" was never considered: Brixen, Bolzano, Merano, and Brenner; they were named on the basis of English usage - that this happens, in three and a half cases, to be the native language of the inhabitants helped a decision to use the linguistic majority as an expedient for the rest of the Autonomous Province. The opposition was "call them by Italian names - they're in Italy," which would have avoided this entire spurious argument. | |||
| :::Doubtless this will be called abuse as well; Harry Truman had an apt rejoinder, which I see is in Wikiquote.] <small>]</small> 21:59, 3 July 2009 (UTC) | |||
| *yawn* '''We are still expecting evidence that Merano is significantly more used than Meran''' (and please without using silly Google hits). But obviously Septentrionalis is thinking that his ramblings about nationialists, Florence and Venice, procedural questions and so on are more promising. And the next time you call me a "disruptive nationalist" you get an AN/I report for uncivilty... --] (]) 06:21, 4 July 2009 (UTC) | |||
| :Mai-Sachme is of course perfectly right. Lacking the ability to provide any factual arguements supporting his case, Septentrionalis has had to resort to ramblings about other things, hoping that the real question will be forgotten. I am especially amused by his claim that what I say is unsupported save by a few. As we are four active contributors here, three of us supporting Meran and Septentrionalis being alone for Merano, having a few supporters is not that bad :-) The fact that remains is that we follow local majority languages in all communities unless there is an established English usage. In Meran, Meran is the local majority use and no evidence has been given for Merano being significantly more used in English than Meran.] (]) 08:12, 4 July 2009 (UTC) | |||
| ===Examples=== | |||
| Here are just some examples of bilingual communities in many other European countries, in each case the language of the majority is used for Misplaced Pages. I give four examples from each country. In many of these cases, the margin is very small, failing Septentrionalis' claim that we only go by majority languages with large majorities. | |||
| *]: ], ], ], ]. We use the German name for each, even though they are situated in a province where French is the official language and in a country where Dutch is the largest language | |||
| *]: ], ], ], ]. The Swedish name is used in each case even though Finnish is by far the largest language | |||
| *]: ], ], ], ]. In the Swiss cases, the majority language of the municipality is always used. | |||
| *]: ], ], ]. In the Italian case, in Alto Adige, we use the main language of the municipality whether its Italian ], German ] or Ladin ]. The only exception is Meran, and nobody has still managed to explain why Meran in particular should be such an exception.] (]) 20:24, 3 July 2009 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::I'm happy to see that you finally bothered to do some research. Your previous posts didn't exactly look like that, to be honest. --] (]) 05:18, 6 June 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::In almost these cases, and cases (like ], ], ], ]) where there is only a negligible population of the language from which English takes the name, we use what English normally uses, per ]. What proportion of the ] have Latin as their mother tongue? This includes Brixen and Bolzano. | |||
| <s>], we have a rather simple choice here. You can either change behaviour completely and start discussing the topic at hand, and we can go on discussing Meran or Merano. Or you can continue your current behaviour of sarcasm and personal attacks at everybody who disagrees, and we can move the discussion to ANI to discuss whether your behaviour belongs at Misplaced Pages. The choice is yours, as everybody else is actively and politely discussing the actual topic.</s> I might have read too much into Mai-Sachme's comment, but I'd like to remind everybody that sarcasm is never very helpful. ] (]) 08:01, 6 June 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::We will do the same for ], if the evidence exists; the evidence does exist on Merano. | |||
| :User:Mai-Sachme has been working here for a long time and is extremely experienced, and is neither disrespectful nor sarcastic. Basically this discussion is whether or not the "-o" should be kept at the end, which is a rather small change. If you look in the archives of the previous discussions, it was agreed that municipalities in south Tyrol should go along with the majority-language spoken. I don't see any further merit for discussion here, this case is quite clear. ] (]) 11:16, 6 June 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::As a mere matter of fact, the census JdeJ so airily cites has the linguistic majorities for Brixen, Bolzano and Urtijëi: 73%, 73% and 82%. I'd call those "large" myself; what definition is JdeJ using? ] <small>]</small> 22:15, 3 July 2009 (UTC) | |||
| :: | |||
| ::::What about the original question of this move request? Is there evidence that Merano is significantly more used than Meran? And is it prossible to show this evidence without Goggle hits? --] (]) 06:24, 4 July 2009 (UTC) | |||
| ::], you're making a lot of erroneous claims. Your claim that Meran is the more common name has already been thoroughly refuted by ] and ]. I showed in my previous post that major newspapers in English use Merano. You now move on to claim that the discussions in archives said we should go with the majority-language, which is equally erroneous. There was a move discussion in 2006, the result was to stick with Merano . There was a new discussion in 2007 , split opinions but the decision once again was to go with Merano . There was a third discussion in 2009 which did result in a move but the most active supporter of that move changed his/her mind in the face of the evidence of English usage and the page was subsequently moved back to Merano . ] (]) 11:38, 6 June 2016 (UTC) | |||
| ::::I agree with Mai-Sachme above. I also wonder if Septentrionalis is serious when he suggests that small places like ], ] or ] even have an established English name. That is of course plain nonsense; you can look at how small municipalities as you want and we always follow local majority usage. And all the talk about English usage in moot, as no evidence has been put forward for Merano being more common English usage than Meran, as Mai-Sachme, Noclador and myself have pointed out time and time again now. It looks more and more as if Septentrionalis is being disruptive, trying to prolong the debate for the sake of prolonging it, without offering anything new to it, in an attempt to delay the move that would put Meran in line not only with the 115 other communities in the province, but also in line with Misplaced Pages usage for similar places all over Europe. As for local majorities, you find communities with 55% or 57% majorities among the examples I gave, very close to the case of Meran.] (]) 08:23, 4 July 2009 (UTC) | |||
| :: | |||
| :::See ] for the naming discussion (in 2006) that ] refers to. Merano was selected as one of the ] to the general scheme (use the local majority language) then, because it has substantial English usage. ] <sup>]</sup> 12:18, 6 June 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::: {{reply to | Gryffindor}} That's a lie and you need to strike it. Mai-Sachme's comments were clearly sarcastic and did nothing to further the debate. You have also misrepresented the archives and failed to understand that the primary policy here is the use of the name in current English sources. The guideline, not policy, referring to the majority language has never been more than a tie-breaker where the policy cannot determine the title because of equal use in modern English sources. That is not the case here as 'Merano' is evidently more commonly used in 21st century English sources. --] (]) 12:25, 6 June 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Accusations are always unfortunate especially if they are unfounded, so try to tone down the vitriol, and if you haven't done so already I would suggest you read up on ]. ] (]) 13:11, 6 June 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::::: Indeed accusations are unfortunate. And sad that they are not unfounded. If you don't see that {{tq|Oh, well, I see. The ngram graphs are a result of myriads of reprinted books from imperial times, additionally, those graphs are proved wrong by ten years old raw Google searches, and the ultimate evidence is a list of 10 (!) modern sources. Case closed.}} and {{tq|I'm happy to see that you finally bothered to do some research.}} are sarcastic, then you are obviously not accustomed to using English and there's no value in attempting to debate further with you. I'm quite familiar with ], as well as ], thanks. I suggest that you try to understand ]. --] (]) 13:36, 6 June 2016 (UTC) | |||
| :::::::I don't think that we should prolong this discussion about our behaviour against each other. RexxS, I apologize for my remarks, I should have been more careful. But I must admit, I had hoped that you somehow understood, where my sarcasm came from. I presented the results of a highly regarded research tool, which is heavily used in the field of ]. And your replies were ... disappointing: "Have a look at the archives, in 2007 Markussep did some raw Google searches, and in 2009 Ian Speckman investigated 10 modern English sources". Well, I'm not making this up... Of course, you are free to think that the ngram graphs are heavily biased by reprints of more-than-a-century-old books (despite you didn't present any proof for that claim... from what I have seen by skimming thorugh the results this is definitely a very peripheral problem), but the "counter-evidence" you presented was ... odd. But I see, that we won't find commons ground, let's leave it that way. --] (]) 16:24, 6 June 2016 (UTC) | |||
| == External links modified == | |||
| ===The case for Meran=== | |||
| Hoping to bring the discussion back to focusing on factual arguments, I have some straightforward questions that I hope will settle the situation. Septentrionalis, the only user still actively argumenting against a move to Meran, says that the arguments Noclador, Mai-Sachme and I make convince "noone". As our claims are rather straightforward and factual, I do not know what it is that he doesn't find convincing. Here are the questions: | |||
| *Does Septentrionalis deny that for 115 out of 116 communities in Alto Adige, we currently use the municipality's name in the majority language as the title of the Misplaced Pages article? And that Meran currently is the only exception? | |||
| *Does Septentrionalis deny that the majority language, based on the last Italian census, in Meran is German? | |||
| *Does Septentrionalis deny that Meran is widely used in English to describe this community? | |||
| I hope that Septentrionalis could try to answer these simple questions rather than guessing what our nationalities might be (I'm Swedish-French, by the way), what our ethnicites might be (still Swedish-French), what our motives might be (consistency with other articles, respect for minority languages) and just plain personal abuse.] (]) 12:50, 4 July 2009 (UTC) | |||
| Hello fellow Wikipedians, | |||
| :''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a ]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.</div><!-- Template:RM bottom --> | |||
| ==Requested move to Merano (5 July 2009)== | |||
| {{movereq|Merano}} | |||
| I have just added archive links to {{plural:1|one external link|1 external links}} on ]. Please take a moment to review . If necessary, add {{tlx|cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{tlx|nobots|deny{{=}}InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes: | |||
| ] → ] — Meran was the name of this city, as used in English, '''before the First World War'''. ] (]) 14:10, 5 July 2009 (UTC) | |||
| *Added archive https://web.archive.org/20090627033501/http://www.icc-cpi.int:80/Menus/ICC/Structure+of+the+Court/Chambers/The+Judges/The+Judges/Judge+Cuno+TARFUSSER/Judge+Cuno+Jakob+TARFUSSER+_Italy_.htm to http://www.icc-cpi.int/Menus/ICC/Structure+of+the+Court/Chambers/The+Judges/The+Judges/Judge+Cuno+TARFUSSER/Judge+Cuno+Jakob+TARFUSSER+_Italy_.htm | |||
| When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the ''checked'' parameter below to '''true''' to let others know. | |||
| Perhaps this is uncontroversial, but let me give one example: | |||
| :We now proceed to the Etschtal, better known, probably, in this country as the valley of the Adige…. Meran, the old capital of the Counts of Tyrol is still called the town, as Rome was of yore called ''Urbs''. <Theodore Foster, in the ''The Foreign Quarterly Review'' (1837) > | |||
| Clearly the American author needed to explain to his readers what the Etsch referered to, but as to ‘Meran’: that was then its name when writing in English. | |||
| {{sourcecheck|checked=false}} | |||
| This usage, however, has become unusual and '''generally archaic'''. It is still quite commonly used to refer to the place in an historical context, but in such cases it is typically glossed, so that (like Foster’s Etsch) readers will know what is being referred to: | |||
| :In 1213 the king’s German wife, Gertrude of Meran (now Merano, Italy) was killed by rebellious Magyar nobles. <Avner Falk, (Associated University Presses, 1996), p.436> | |||
| Less scholarly writers follow the same pattern, has | |||
| :‘…the Tyrol began life as a medieval dukedom centred on Meran (now Merano in Italy)’ | |||
| Cheers.—]<small><sub style="margin-left:-14.9ex;color:green;font-family:Comic Sans MS">]:Online</sub></small> 06:57, 9 January 2016 (UTC) | |||
| The ''Encyclopedia of the Stateless Nations: S-Z'', in its interesting article on Tyrol, also identifies the English language usage as Merano: | |||
| :‘Merano, locally called Meran, the region’s historical capital’.<James Minahan, (Greenwood Publishing Group, 2002)> | |||
| == Article name reverted == | |||
| In general (rather than purely historical) use we should beware of departing from the following authorities, all of which treat Merano as the standard name in contemporary English, because if we do depart from the standard '''most intelligent readers will conclude that we are trying to make a political point''': | |||
| * | |||
| * | |||
| * | |||
| *The ''Blue Guide to Northern Italy'' (1987) | |||
| * the ''Everyman’s Encyclopedia'' (1961) | |||
| * , Lonely Planet Publications (2008) | |||
| * (2003) | |||
| The best I can find to counteract that in modern useage is which gives the article title as ‘Meran’, but uses ‘Merano’ throughout the article itself. | |||
| I reverted a name change made without consensus for this article where there has been prolonged debate on the correct name in the past. Please establish consensus before moving an article where there are varied opinions on what the name should be. • • • ] ]: 14:43, 9 April 2017 (UTC) | |||
| In conclusion ] is the baseline when naming articles. It should not be abused—clearly we should not move Piz Badile to Shovel Peak, or Mont Blanc to White Mountain; probably we shouldn’t move Mumbai to Bombay or Beijing to Peking; it’s arguable (although I would be in favour of it) that we shouldn’t even move Livorno to Leghorn or Trento to Trent. But like Piz Badile, Mont Blanc, Beijing and Mumbai, '''the proper English language name for this article in an English language ecyclopedia is Merano'''. ] (]) 14:10, 5 July 2009 (UTC) | |||
| :There was a lot of inconclusive discussions about the spelling of this city for a decade, then a month ago the page was moved and nobody even made squeak. Moving it back will open a new round of discussions without end... can we just leave my hometown alone for awhile? No one here cares. ] (]) 18:52, 9 April 2017 (UTC) | |||
| ::Agree, now that the page has moved back to its correct name let's leave it alone. | |||
| ::: the name i german is Meran and in Italian is Merano.] (]) 15:24, 29 August 2017 (UTC) | |||
| == External links modified == | |||
| :: Merano is used in English??? that is not correct - all of the follwoing writers use Meran in their English books published after 1990: | |||
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| :: so much for Ian Spackmans claim… --] (]) 15:38, 5 July 2009 (UTC) | |||
| Hello fellow Wikipedians, | |||
| Ian Spackman has showed that Merano is often used in English and Noclador has showed that Meran is often used in English. This is nothing new, the long discussion during the last request move made it very clear that both forms are in common use in English. In other words, neither Merano nor Meran is ''established English usage'', the usage varies. As there is no established English form, we follow local usage and Misplaced Pages naming policies, and that is the reason that the page has been moved to Meran. A new move request, following more than ten days of discussion, is perhaps not necessary as no new evidence is brought to the case.] (]) 17:26, 5 July 2009 (UTC) | |||
| :In other words, I suggest that the request be speedy closed. Filing a request for a new move the same day as the decision has been taken and without bringing new evidence to the table is not in line with the policies for moves on Misplaced Pages.] (]) 17:30, 5 July 2009 (UTC) | |||
| ::The move was improper; in substance because there was no consensus; in form because it was done by so inexperienced a user that he left this talk page behind. ] <small>]</small> 21:00, 5 July 2009 (UTC) | |||
| :Which form does the ] use? ] (]) 18:05, 5 July 2009 (UTC) | |||
| ::I presume the Austrian Club conducts itself in German and uses Meran; similarly the Italian Alpine club uses Merano. In the English-speaking world, as , we normally use Merano. ] <small>]</small> 21:08, 5 July 2009 (UTC) | |||
| :::I mean the British Alpine Club, the one I linked, too, and which happens to be the oldest Alpine clubs of all. They should be sufficiently sensitive to the issue, so that their opinions count. But please no isolated snippet views to page 578, footnote 25b. I am talking of titles of publications, of a sringent ''naming policy'' which could serve us as yardstick. ] (]) 22:21, 5 July 2009 (UTC) | |||
| ::::Since Merano is not a mountain, why should they have a policy on it? Come up with one that says Meran, if you think it relevant. In the meantime, Canadians do speak English and climb the Alps. ] <small>]</small> 22:37, 5 July 2009 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Are you kidding me? I can't believe the community entrusted you so long with running the naming convention page. I had thought your messing around over there a few weeks ago was a one-off, but no. Has it occurred to you that the Alpine Club has maps, route description, hiker reports, GEO data, weather information, everything, on the Alpes. And last time I checked Meran/Merano is still in the Alpes... ] (]) 01:01, 6 July 2009 (UTC) | |||
| *'''Strong and immediate restore''' to the old stable name '''Merano'''. There was never consensus to move, as the discussion above shows. The list of books cited above as ''published'' since 1980 is largely a collection of books about Victorians, translations from the German, and above all reprints of several Victorians, including ] and ]; I am willing to assume the publication dates are correct, but few of them constitute ''current'' usage. ] <small>]</small> 20:32, 5 July 2009 (UTC) | |||
| '''Strong oppose''' as per reasons given in discussion above. ] (]) 01:01, 6 July 2009 (UTC) | |||
| I have just modified 2 external links on ]. Please take a moment to review . If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit ] for additional information. I made the following changes: | |||
| ===Closing administrator's remarks=== | |||
| *Replaced archive link x with https://web.archive.org/web/20160517234756/http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/print/2006/11/reinhold-messner/alexander-text on http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/print/2006/11/reinhold-messner/alexander-text | |||
| First of all, all of you need to stop getting so worked up over what to name a Misplaced Pages article. | |||
| *Corrected formatting/usage for http://www.icc-cpi.int/Menus/ICC/Structure%2Bof%2Bthe%2BCourt/Chambers/The%2BJudges/The%2BJudges/Judge%2BCuno%2BTARFUSSER/Judge%2BCuno%2BJakob%2BTARFUSSER%2B_Italy_.htm | |||
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| I judged the debate based on the arguments presented and which ones appeared to generate the most consensus. It was not necessarily easy to follow the discussion, as a lot of it was bickering over agendas and what not. Since closing the discussion, I have read it a second time (yes, I ''did'' read it a first time). The dominant rule for naming foreign places is going by their predominant English name. Ultimately, there is an equal usage in the English language, leading this argument to essentially cancel itself out (for every awesome guy who says Merano, there's another saying Meran). Then there are the other issues raised: consistency with the naming pattern in the same region, and how we treat articles who have a language contingency that does not match up with the rest of the country. Those reasons produced a much more convincing argument to have the article at "Meran"; as for "Merano", less arguments exist. Any arguments about users being nationalists were thrown out the window. | |||
| {{sourcecheck|checked=false|needhelp=}} | |||
| I appreciate when procedural objections to my actions are raised (even if I do get frustrated over them). For that reason, I asked the ] to see if I am crazy or if I did a fair job of evaluating the discussion. —] (]) 22:32, 5 July 2009 (UTC) | |||
| :Oh this is nothing. See the entry under Bozen-Bolzano, under ]. ] <small>]</small> 22:37, 5 July 2009 (UTC) | |||
| Cheers.—] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">(])</span> 14:19, 8 June 2017 (UTC) | |||
| :There is no consensus to change ]; there never has been. There is an uneasy stasis between two factions of nationalists, both of whom will say and do almost anything for their National Truths. There was a ] where it can be ascertained, which is at least on Merano, Bolzano, Brixen, and Brenner ; there is a ] showing that Merano is now more common. ] <small>]</small> 22:48, 5 July 2009 (UTC) | |||
| :If there was no clear case to move, this should have '''been left alone'''. ] <small>]</small> 23:19, 5 July 2009 (UTC) | |||
| == External links modified == | |||
| :: Would you please read ] before further accusing other editors to be "nationalists". --] (]) 22:54, 5 July 2009 (UTC) | |||
| :::I invite anyone who questions this to read the discussions linked to above. There are more at ]. If it quacks like a duck... ] <small>]</small> 22:57, 5 July 2009 (UTC) | |||
| :::: That does not make it anymore inappropriate in a place where you're expected to not alienate the editors. —] (]) 23:22, 5 July 2009 (UTC) | |||
| Hello fellow Wikipedians, | |||
| I have just modified one external link on ]. Please take a moment to review ]. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit ] for additional information. I made the following changes: | |||
| I am not interested in devoting the rest of my life to this. I used my logical reasoning in an attempt to get to the bottom of what is obviously a contentious topic, and I don't think I will try to devote anymore time unless I truly have to. PMAnderson, I will not have you alienating editors; that is much worse than closing a page move discussion with faulty logic. —] (]) 23:22, 5 July 2009 (UTC) | |||
| *Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20100415050659/http://www.stol.it/Artikel/Chronik/Lokal/Fahrt-in-den-Tod-fuer-junge-Mutter-Trauerfeier-in-Schlanders to http://www.stol.it/Artikel/Chronik/Lokal/Fahrt-in-den-Tod-fuer-junge-Mutter-Trauerfeier-in-Schlanders | |||
| ::You are free to withdraw; please move the article back, and get someone else to close the original request. ] <small>]</small> 23:32, 5 July 2009 (UTC) | |||
| When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs. | |||
| :There was clearly no consensus for a move: the votes to move were equal to those opposing. You say that you ‘judged the debate based on the arguments presented and which ones appeared to generate the most consensus’, but not a ''single'' argument on either side generated any consensus: nobody showed the slightest sign of being convinced by an opposing point of view. If you don’t want to ‘devote the rest of your life to this’ then revoke your decision, move the article back and move on. Otherwise justify your decision. You say that ‘ultimately, there is an equal usage in the English language’. Exactly what evidence did you use to come to that conclusion? I saw none on this page. ] (]) 00:42, 6 July 2009 (UTC) | |||
| ::Did Ian Spackman really miss the whole point of us following local majority use? It was clearly stated in Harej's response.] (]) 07:02, 6 July 2009 (UTC) | |||
| {{sourcecheck|checked=false|needhelp=}} | |||
| ==Disruptive revert warring== | |||
| If the revert war on the text of this article continues, as , I will tag appropriately. There was no consensus for this move, and the article text should not follow. ] <small>]</small> 21:43, 5 July 2009 (UTC) | |||
| Cheers.—] <span style="color:green;font-family:Rockwell">(])</span> 05:42, 1 December 2017 (UTC) | |||
| : a) the move was done in accordance with wiki protocol | |||
| : b) there was 0 "nationalist renaming" as you claim - the order of Italian/German was reversed and the use of the cities name in the article brought into accordance with the articles name | |||
| : c) a neutrality tag for that is widely overblown! | |||
| : d) to speak of "revert war" after you were had reverted two editors that brought the article in line with all 115 other articles about locations in this province and then got revert yourself, smacks of an attempt to intimidate other editors. | |||
| : please refrain from any further edits. if the article would be moved backed to Merano, then we would reverse the order again; but as the article is now under Meran don't edit - please discuss instead. --] (]) 21:59, 5 July 2009 (UTC) | |||
| ::You have made four exact reverts, two of them to suppress the ''fact'' that the use of Meran, like the validity of the move request, is under dispute. You may explain this elsewhere. ] <small>]</small> 22:08, 5 July 2009 (UTC) | |||
| :::The move was ok, PMAnderson. The order follows the article title, this is established practice in all 116 municipality articles relating to South Tyrol, including those where the naming scheme follows Italian and Ladin place names. ] (]) 22:24, 5 July 2009 (UTC) | |||
| ::::The move was appalling; there was no consensus for it, and is not now. All consequences from it are disputed. ] <small>]</small> 22:28, 5 July 2009 (UTC) | |||
| ::::The move was not OK. The general rule for naming geographic entities in Misplaced Pages is what they are most commonly called in English. If the correct rule agrees with a different rule for all 116 municipalities in South Tyrol other than Merano, this doesn't make the other rule correct. It just means that the other rule is a good approximation for the correct rule in the case of lots of little villages that are rarely mentioned in English. This is not an unusual situation. In all regions with this kind of naming conflict the little villages are typically named in English as they are named locally, while there are all sorts of special situations for the more significant towns and cities. ] ] 00:23, 6 July 2009 (UTC) | |||
| :::::Sigh, you guys are missing the subject and confusing the topic. Again, , as this is established practice in all 116 municipality articles relating to South Tyrol, including those where the naming scheme follows Italian and Ladin place names. This section can be closed. ] (]) 00:52, 6 July 2009 (UTC) | |||
| ::::::You are missing the fact that this revert war was, at least in part, about a hatnote stating that the current name of the article is controversial. ] ] 08:38, 6 July 2009 (UTC) | |||
| == A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion == | |||
| I don't think readers need to have it thrust in their faces that WP editors are in disagreement about the optimum name for the article. However we must avoid allowing the decision about how to name the article (where we can only choose one name, whatever the outcome may be) to cause the first sentence to be written in a way that implies that the name we've chosen has suddenly become ''the'' English name on account of that decision. I therefore propose giving equal status to both names in the lead sentence (i.e. not having one in italics and marked as foreign), and dealing with the names issue in a separate section of the article, as is often done when the naming situation is complex. My edit represents a start with that (I would hope that those more knowledgeable will expand on the Names section).--] (]) 10:15, 6 July 2009 (UTC) | |||
| The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion: | |||
| :I think that is a useful and welcome step towards a compromise. Perhaps a similar paragraph could also be employed for similar communities in the province, such as ] and ]?] (]) 11:11, 6 July 2009 (UTC) | |||
| * ]<!-- COMMONSBOT: discussion | 2018-11-29T15:36:36.385022 | Merano-Stemma.svg --> | |||
| :I also found Kotniski’s contribution sensible. Though I’d like to have a date for the Latin ‘Meranus’: I suspect it’s medieval (which many of our readers won’t think of as a possibility), as the only local Roman-era settlement I have come across is Maia/Maja (hence Obermais/Maia Alta). But I may be quite wrong. As to the bolding of both German and Italian forms, yes I agree that should be extended: ]/Passirio springs to mind. ] (]) 12:44, 6 July 2009 (UTC) | |||
| Participate in the deletion discussion at the ]. —] (]) 15:36, 29 November 2018 (UTC) | |||
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Article name
Shouldn't this be at Merano instead of Meran-Merano? Wiki naming policy is to have the official name listed- as the city is in Italy, this would therefore be the Italian name. The intro would therefore read "Merano (German: Meran) is a city..." Of course, the German-population majority would also be listed. Olessi 15:17, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
That move would also affect the other Category:Towns in South Tyrol. Both German and Italian are official languages in South Tyrol. This bilingual naming system looks like it has been the result of an edit war, I don't know. It would be a lot easier if there would be common English names for these towns, like Brussels. For a similar situation see the municipalities in the Brussels-Capital Region of Belgium, they're officially bilingual French/Dutch, but apparently all the articles are at the French names. I'm not saying that's right or wrong, I guess it looks more professional than Meran-Merano etc. Markussep 16:08, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
- I was not aware that the other South Tyrolian localities had the same naming style. IMO, simply Merano is best for the article name, but I don't want to cause an edit war. The current system has led to some interesting names, like Lana-Lana. Olessi 17:35, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
- I would also say keep the current double-name format, we do not want to start an editing war over language, Misplaced Pages is not the place for such things. Gryffindor 09:06, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
- Just call it Meran, most South Tirolers would call it that. Plus German is an official language of South Tyrol.
- I would also say keep the current double-name format, we do not want to start an editing war over language, Misplaced Pages is not the place for such things. Gryffindor 09:06, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
The statements found in this article regarding language use in that part of Tyrol formerly belonging to Austria are not correct.
Check the 'History' chapter:
'Nevertheless, all originally tyrolean geographic names were prohibited and exchanged through Italianised names (even surnames lost their validity until World War II). After 1945, it became one of the most important sites of tourism in the region.'
Now go to
chapter 'Today' and compare. According to my knowledge, what the author says there about the status of the respective languages reflects the situation.
In other words: The dominating language is german, and so the german names have survived - also officially. There is an italian minority, and they use their italian names for the places.
What about correcting the language statements in the Meran article?
Michael Laudahn 17:33, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
The name is Merano, please don't erase.Keep the righ name —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.15.223.124 (talk) 15:08, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
Please keep the right name, don't change the right name MERANO to the wrong name Meran. Please no more vandalism. Stop to the racism and austrian nationalism! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.54.115.232 (talk) 18:13, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
July 2010
Südtirol is not Italy! Even though it belongs (currently) to Italy the language is predominantly German and not Italian. Hence, I don't think the Italian name should be used in the English wikipedia. Btw. The name Merano was invented by the Italian fascists in the 1920s. --91.63.167.111 (talk) 13:50, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
- you are ignorant and a liar. i'm impressed noclador can at least set you straight on this utterly out of control German mentality. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.89.129.139 (talk) 05:10, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
- 1) Many names were invented by Ettore Tolomei form 1906 onwards and in 1927 then taken over by the fascist authorities, HOWEVER Merano was not - it is along with other names of the major cities a historic name and was in use at a far earlier time, then even Tolomeis birth. 2) Misplaced Pages naming convention states to use the most common name in English which is in fact Merano 3) therefore no change is required and no change will be done. noclador (talk) 14:38, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
Solution for naming problem
1. an article about a south tyrolian village should be named like the majority of its population calls it, and the other language just in italics.. what would lead to for example: Bolzano, Salorno, Bruneck, Brixen, Meran this would be the most evident solution or 2. the article should be named with both the german and italian names, and which one first, depending on how its called by the majority of its inhabitants but not with hyphen in between but with slash.. what would lead to Meran / Merano, Bruneck / Brunico Bolzano / Bozen
i dont understand why not everyone comes to this solution when thinking about it of course it should be named either how its called by the majority of its inhabitants, or by both names, with the more used first... so why Merano? Jadran91 (talk) 03:30, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
- Because this is the version of the Wikipdia in the English language and the first rule we follow is to give a place the name most commonly used in contemporary English writing, where that exists. (See WP:UE). So Florence, rather than Firenze, and Vienna rather than Wien. I say contemporary English because we don’t call Trento Trent (despite the famous congress) or Livorno Leghorn. (Obviously this leaves scope for disagreement: should Apulia be moved to Puglia, or Lazio moved to Latium? That can be argued, and there will never be 100% agreement: personally I would choose Puglia, Lazio, Leghorn and Trent.) In the case of South Tyrol/Alto Adige/Südtirol/, previous (and horrifically protracted) discussions have determined that Bozen and Meran are most commonly called Bolzano and Merano in modern English, so we use those. Most (perhaps all) of the other places in South Tyrol don’t have any particularly strong bias when writing in English, and we have decided to use the name used by the majority of the inhabitants. (German, or occasionally Ladin. (Yes I know Bolzano is mostly Italophone, but we have already named that on the basis of English usage!)) We could have decided to use slashed names, or to have used the Italian names because they are all in Italy, but local majority language seemed to be the best. Naming disputes get absurdly heated, I am afraid, but I hope that this explanation of the current convention helps!Ian Spackman (talk) 13:42, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
Name - the official position
I took the initiative to contact the city, and their reply is availible at User talk:ChrisDHDR/e-mail#Official position on the name of Meran.2FMerano. Obviously the official name in english is Merano-Meran, and I think we can safely move it there without any opposition. ChrisDHDR 15:45, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
- No, sorry, I don't think it works that way. That would be very eccentric, so don't move it to this name as it would obviously be reverted and move wars are heavily frowned upon.
- If we asked cities how they want to be called in English we would get all sorts of reasonable answers that would be inconsistent with each other (i.e. article titles would look as if there was no clear underlying principle, i.e. no naming convention), and in some cases also unreasonable answers. Wittenberg might insist on being called "Lutherstadt Wittenberg" or "Luther Town Wittenberg". "Moscow" might insist on being called "Moskva" or even "Москва". It just doesn't work that way. Note also that Rome is under Rome not Roma, Vienna is under Vienna not Wien, Venice under Venice not Venezia. (It's the little villages that we have to put under their local names because there is no English name. Merano, while rather small, does have an English name due to its location. Generations of English travellers have passed through it on their way to Italy.)
- Both "Merano" and "Meran" are acceptable names as far as I am concerned. But more English speakers call it "Merano" than "Meran", and more local people call it "Meran" than "Merano". What the English speakers do is of course more relevant for the English language Misplaced Pages, so Merano is the correct solution. The compound name is silly, eccentric and not even acceptable. I guess it's what the city does in leaflets for tourists, but it's not the kind of thing that we do here. Hans Adler 16:03, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
- A lot of people have claimed that Merano is the more used name in English, but I've never seen a word of proof... ChrisDHDR 19:03, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
- E.g. if I search in the archive of Google News for "Meran" Italy I get 0 hits. If I change it to "Merano" Italy I get 14. (I am using Italy to get only English results. You might want to try other words instead. Meran or Merano must be in quotes; otherwise we get 14 hits in both cases because Google "knows" it's the same city. Hans Adler 20:42, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
- I'm not really convinced: Google searches aren't really a fiable source. However the city does use the German version as the default in its website: I think that shows a clear preference for the international community. ChrisDHDR 19:43, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
- E.g. if I search in the archive of Google News for "Meran" Italy I get 0 hits. If I change it to "Merano" Italy I get 14. (I am using Italy to get only English results. You might want to try other words instead. Meran or Merano must be in quotes; otherwise we get 14 hits in both cases because Google "knows" it's the same city. Hans Adler 20:42, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
- A lot of people have claimed that Merano is the more used name in English, but I've never seen a word of proof... ChrisDHDR 19:03, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
- We've tried using double names; the result has always been a spate of move requests to change the order of the names. There's an entry in WP:LAME about Bolzano-Bozen. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:07, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
- to sum up 5-6 years of debate: it's Merano in English. EOD! noclador (talk) 04:02, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
I think the name of this article should be Meran, not Merano. The majority of the population speaks German and we have established the rule to name the cities after the language spoken by the majority. Gryffindor (talk) 20:15, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
- Gryffindor, that rule applies to places with no common name in English. The majority in Rome call it "Roma", the majority in Munich call it "München", the majority in Florence call it "Firenze" and so on. As is clear from the discussions in the archives, Merano has been established English usage for a very long time.Jeppiz (talk) 14:23, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
- For how long a time? I. e., was it due to the political changes following to the Second World War (which language-wise should be considered reversed by the creation of an autonomous province with the primary langague German)? Or wasn't it?
- If, of course, an Englishman would speak of Merano in the year 1913, then of course the article should remain at Merano.--131.159.0.47 (talk) 16:01, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
Move request
I know there has been a section on that, but let's request a move to Meran again. The city belongs to South Tyrol, and the language of the autonomous province of South Tyrol is German (despite its belonging to the state of Italy - just as Québec's language is French, despite its belonging to the state of Canada). This one here even happens to have a German-speaking majority. If I'm rightly informed the Ladin name is Meran too. I don't even see where there could be a possible discussion. - That is, unless "Merano" would be the established English name, as Cologne is for Köln. In that case: it's the English wikipedia. But while I don't really know, I don't think this is the case. And in that case: it's not the Italian wikipedia.--131.159.0.47 (talk) 15:55, 1 December 2014 (UTC)
- There is mounting evidence that the name is "Meran", see English language usage from 1800 to 2000: https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Meran%2CMerano&year_start=1800&year_end=2000&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2CMeran%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2CMerano%3B%2Cc0 , and from 1950 to 2000: https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Meran%2CMerano&year_start=1950&year_end=2000&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2CMeran%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2CMerano%3B%2Cc0 . The article also has to be in line with the naming policy of majority-language. Unless someone can refute this evidence, this article will be moved shortly. Gryffindor (talk) 08:51, 2 June 2016 (UTC)
- It seems quite obvious to me as well, that the current page name is not in line with our policies. There is no evidence that the city has an English name as such (if anything, Meran seems to be more rooted). In that case, WP:NBZ suggests to go with the local linguistic majority. --Mai-Sachme (talk) 13:55, 4 June 2016 (UTC)
- I'm not particularly against this move, especially if "Meran" is the most common name in English. Anyway, Meran/Merano is basically 50% Italian-speaking and 50% German-speaking, thus there is not a such strong German majority. --Checco (talk) 10:21, 5 June 2016 (UTC)
It's not a good idea to reopen difficult issues without first reading the previous discussions. Talk:Merano/Archive 1 has a colossal amount of argument on this very topic. The overriding policy for determining the name of this article is WP:UE, i.e. what is the town most commonly called in modern English. As the region moved from Austrian to Italian control after WWI, we can expect English usage before 1919 to differ considerably from usage after that date. It is therefore no value whatsoever to quote sources dating to the 1800s as a guide to current English usage. I suggest you re-read the debate at Talk:Merano/Archive 1 #Requested move to Merano (5 July 2009), in particular the arguments put forward by Ian Spackman and Pmanderson - not least the usage of Merano in contemporary English encyclopedias like Britannica and Encarta - and the refutation of the list of 19th century books produced in that section as evidence. It is clear from the previous debates that the majority usage in current English is 'Merano'. --RexxS (talk) 15:38, 5 June 2016 (UTC)
- On the contrary, I think we shouldn't look back to arguments and dogged discussions from 5-10 years ago, but pause for a moment and have a fresh look at our naming policies and the data. Our most basic naming policy is WP:COMMONNAME. Rexxs, you are right that it would be inappropriate to take a decision based on pre-World War I data. But I guess, you've got to admit, that it's also quite difficult to identify the town's most common English name by looking just at the ngram graphs for Meran and Merano between 1950 and 2000. And please note, that the Google Ngram Viewer was only released after the last extensive naming discussion in the archive and wasn't available to Ian Spackman or Pmanderson. I'd say that it's against all evidence, that either Meran or Merano can be deemed to be a preferred version. Having established that there is no clear evidence for a predominantly used common English name, there is another guideline, which has the precise goal to settle such cases of doubt: WP:NBZ. --Mai-Sachme (talk) 18:42, 5 June 2016 (UTC)
- I have no strong feelings either way, but must point out that WP:NBZ, while normally very useful, is of limited use here. It says that Most municipalities have a large majority, often a 90% majority, of one language group and that is true, but Meran(o) is the complete opposite with 50%-49%, so basically an even split. As for English usage, Merano seems to be (by far) the more common forms in main English newspapers , , , , . So with an even linguistic split and a clear preference for Merano in English-speaking media, I'd suggest sticking to Merano. Jeppiz (talk) 19:08, 5 June 2016 (UTC)
- @Mai-Sachme: I disagree. It is common courtesy to check the archives for previous debates before re-hashing old chestnuts that have been argued over many times before. There is little doubt that the primary principle that we need to adhere to is that of using the title that is most commonly found in modern English sources. You will note that WP:COMMONNAME has a section dealing with subjects that have undergone a change of name, which guides us to "give extra weight to sources written after the name change" (emphasis as in the policy). The problem with your ngram is that includes all of the editions of books published prior to 1919 that have been re-published since 1950. The list at Talk:Merano/Archive 1 #Requested move to Merano (5 July 2009) shows emphatically how common that is. Without the ability to filter out such spurious results, the ngram is worthless. On the other hand, the archives contain multiple demonstrations that Merano is more commonly used in recent English sources. Here's one reproduced from Talk:Merano/Archive 1 #Straw Poll:
- I have no strong feelings either way, but must point out that WP:NBZ, while normally very useful, is of limited use here. It says that Most municipalities have a large majority, often a 90% majority, of one language group and that is true, but Meran(o) is the complete opposite with 50%-49%, so basically an even split. As for English usage, Merano seems to be (by far) the more common forms in main English newspapers , , , , . So with an even linguistic split and a clear preference for Merano in English-speaking media, I'd suggest sticking to Merano. Jeppiz (talk) 19:08, 5 June 2016 (UTC)
Encyclopedias:
- Britannica Merano
- Columbia Merano (only mentioned in article about Innsbruck)
- Encarta Merano
Google scholar (articles from the period 1957-2007, including "italy" to exclude authors with surnames Meran and Merano):
Google news archive (articles from the period 1957-2007, including "italy" to exclude people with surnames Meran and Merano):
Google books (from the period 1957-2007, including "italy" to exclude people with surnames Meran and Merano):
Google English language, only .org, -wiki:
- Merano without Meran 10,100
- Meran without Merano 590
I'm sure several "false hits" slipped through, but the overall picture is clear IMO: both names are used in English, "Merano" more frequently than "Meran". For the statistics enthousiasts: I used a more robust, but very time consuming method in this discussion about Belgian municipalities. - Markussep
- See also Ian Spackman's list of 10 modern sources at Talk:Merano/Archive 1 #Requested move to Merano (5 July 2009). Unless you can show that usage has changed dramatically since 2007/9, I think those results are pretty conclusive. --RexxS (talk) 21:21, 5 June 2016 (UTC)
- Oh, well, I see. The ngram graphs are a result of myriads of reprinted books from imperial times, additionally, those graphs are proved wrong by ten years old raw Google searches, and the ultimate evidence is a list of 10 (!) modern sources. Case closed. --Mai-Sachme (talk) 22:11, 5 June 2016 (UTC)
- Very clever, sarcasm is so convincing. Do you actually bother to read anything that others have posted? You actually think that the ngrams magically filter out reprinted books? Of the list of 34 quoted in the archive more than half were reprints of works dating back to Edwardian times and earlier. Just how do you adjust for that in your ngrams? And how do you have the nerve to criticise a set of Google searches that's 10 years old, when your ngrams start 65 years ago? If you want more recent searches have a look at these:
- Google Scholar Merano Italy without Meran 2000-2016 7,060 results
- Google Scholar Meran Italy without Merano 2000-2016 1,550 results
- Google News "Merano Italy" without Meran 2000-2016 108 results
- Google News "Meran Italy" without Merano 2000-2016 29 results
In determining which of several alternative names is most frequently used, it is useful to observe the usage of major international organizations, major English-language media outlets, quality encyclopedias, geographic name servers, major scientific bodies, and notable scientific journals. A search engine may help to collect this data; when using a search engine, restrict the results to pages written in English, and exclude the word "Misplaced Pages". When using Google, generally a search of Google Books and News Archive should be defaulted to before a web search, as they concentrate reliable sources
- Misplaced Pages:Article titles #Use commonly recognizable names- I've pointed you to the evidence that Merano is used more commonly in quality encyclopedias, in scholarly works and in news outlets of the 21st century, by a factor of about 4 to 1. So what's your evidence showing the opposing view? --RexxS (talk) 00:21, 6 June 2016 (UTC)
- Very clever, sarcasm is so convincing. Do you actually bother to read anything that others have posted? You actually think that the ngrams magically filter out reprinted books? Of the list of 34 quoted in the archive more than half were reprints of works dating back to Edwardian times and earlier. Just how do you adjust for that in your ngrams? And how do you have the nerve to criticise a set of Google searches that's 10 years old, when your ngrams start 65 years ago? If you want more recent searches have a look at these:
- Oh, well, I see. The ngram graphs are a result of myriads of reprinted books from imperial times, additionally, those graphs are proved wrong by ten years old raw Google searches, and the ultimate evidence is a list of 10 (!) modern sources. Case closed. --Mai-Sachme (talk) 22:11, 5 June 2016 (UTC)
- See also Ian Spackman's list of 10 modern sources at Talk:Merano/Archive 1 #Requested move to Merano (5 July 2009). Unless you can show that usage has changed dramatically since 2007/9, I think those results are pretty conclusive. --RexxS (talk) 21:21, 5 June 2016 (UTC)
- I'm happy to see that you finally bothered to do some research. Your previous posts didn't exactly look like that, to be honest. --Mai-Sachme (talk) 05:18, 6 June 2016 (UTC)
Mai-Sachme, we have a rather simple choice here. You can either change behaviour completely and start discussing the topic at hand, and we can go on discussing Meran or Merano. Or you can continue your current behaviour of sarcasm and personal attacks at everybody who disagrees, and we can move the discussion to ANI to discuss whether your behaviour belongs at Misplaced Pages. The choice is yours, as everybody else is actively and politely discussing the actual topic. I might have read too much into Mai-Sachme's comment, but I'd like to remind everybody that sarcasm is never very helpful. Jeppiz (talk) 08:01, 6 June 2016 (UTC)
- User:Mai-Sachme has been working here for a long time and is extremely experienced, and is neither disrespectful nor sarcastic. Basically this discussion is whether or not the "-o" should be kept at the end, which is a rather small change. If you look in the archives of the previous discussions, it was agreed that municipalities in south Tyrol should go along with the majority-language spoken. I don't see any further merit for discussion here, this case is quite clear. Gryffindor (talk) 11:16, 6 June 2016 (UTC)
- Gryffindor, you're making a lot of erroneous claims. Your claim that Meran is the more common name has already been thoroughly refuted by RexxS and Markussep. I showed in my previous post that major newspapers in English use Merano. You now move on to claim that the discussions in archives said we should go with the majority-language, which is equally erroneous. There was a move discussion in 2006, the result was to stick with Merano . There was a new discussion in 2007 , split opinions but the decision once again was to go with Merano . There was a third discussion in 2009 which did result in a move but the most active supporter of that move changed his/her mind in the face of the evidence of English usage and the page was subsequently moved back to Merano . Jeppiz (talk) 11:38, 6 June 2016 (UTC)
-
- See Talk:Municipalities of South Tyrol#Survey for the naming discussion (in 2006) that Gryffindor refers to. Merano was selected as one of the exceptions to the general scheme (use the local majority language) then, because it has substantial English usage. Markussep 12:18, 6 June 2016 (UTC)
- @Gryffindor: That's a lie and you need to strike it. Mai-Sachme's comments were clearly sarcastic and did nothing to further the debate. You have also misrepresented the archives and failed to understand that the primary policy here is the use of the name in current English sources. The guideline, not policy, referring to the majority language has never been more than a tie-breaker where the policy cannot determine the title because of equal use in modern English sources. That is not the case here as 'Merano' is evidently more commonly used in 21st century English sources. --RexxS (talk) 12:25, 6 June 2016 (UTC)
- Accusations are always unfortunate especially if they are unfounded, so try to tone down the vitriol, and if you haven't done so already I would suggest you read up on WP:GF. Gryffindor (talk) 13:11, 6 June 2016 (UTC)
- Indeed accusations are unfortunate. And sad that they are not unfounded. If you don't see that
Oh, well, I see. The ngram graphs are a result of myriads of reprinted books from imperial times, additionally, those graphs are proved wrong by ten years old raw Google searches, and the ultimate evidence is a list of 10 (!) modern sources. Case closed.
andI'm happy to see that you finally bothered to do some research.
are sarcastic, then you are obviously not accustomed to using English and there's no value in attempting to debate further with you. I'm quite familiar with WP:AGF, as well as WP:PACT, thanks. I suggest that you try to understand WP:CIR. --RexxS (talk) 13:36, 6 June 2016 (UTC)- I don't think that we should prolong this discussion about our behaviour against each other. RexxS, I apologize for my remarks, I should have been more careful. But I must admit, I had hoped that you somehow understood, where my sarcasm came from. I presented the results of a highly regarded research tool, which is heavily used in the field of corpus linguistics. And your replies were ... disappointing: "Have a look at the archives, in 2007 Markussep did some raw Google searches, and in 2009 Ian Speckman investigated 10 modern English sources". Well, I'm not making this up... Of course, you are free to think that the ngram graphs are heavily biased by reprints of more-than-a-century-old books (despite you didn't present any proof for that claim... from what I have seen by skimming thorugh the results this is definitely a very peripheral problem), but the "counter-evidence" you presented was ... odd. But I see, that we won't find commons ground, let's leave it that way. --Mai-Sachme (talk) 16:24, 6 June 2016 (UTC)
- Indeed accusations are unfortunate. And sad that they are not unfounded. If you don't see that
- Accusations are always unfortunate especially if they are unfounded, so try to tone down the vitriol, and if you haven't done so already I would suggest you read up on WP:GF. Gryffindor (talk) 13:11, 6 June 2016 (UTC)
- @Gryffindor: That's a lie and you need to strike it. Mai-Sachme's comments were clearly sarcastic and did nothing to further the debate. You have also misrepresented the archives and failed to understand that the primary policy here is the use of the name in current English sources. The guideline, not policy, referring to the majority language has never been more than a tie-breaker where the policy cannot determine the title because of equal use in modern English sources. That is not the case here as 'Merano' is evidently more commonly used in 21st century English sources. --RexxS (talk) 12:25, 6 June 2016 (UTC)
- See Talk:Municipalities of South Tyrol#Survey for the naming discussion (in 2006) that Gryffindor refers to. Merano was selected as one of the exceptions to the general scheme (use the local majority language) then, because it has substantial English usage. Markussep 12:18, 6 June 2016 (UTC)
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Article name reverted
I reverted a name change made without consensus for this article where there has been prolonged debate on the correct name in the past. Please establish consensus before moving an article where there are varied opinions on what the name should be. • • • Peter (Southwood) : 14:43, 9 April 2017 (UTC)
- There was a lot of inconclusive discussions about the spelling of this city for a decade, then a month ago the page was moved and nobody even made squeak. Moving it back will open a new round of discussions without end... can we just leave my hometown alone for awhile? No one here cares. noclador (talk) 18:52, 9 April 2017 (UTC)
- Agree, now that the page has moved back to its correct name let's leave it alone.
- the name i german is Meran and in Italian is Merano.Bolzanobozen (talk) 15:24, 29 August 2017 (UTC)
- Agree, now that the page has moved back to its correct name let's leave it alone.
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